Have you ever watched the show Suits?

Surely you heard mention of this USA Network series in the midst of the Royal Wedding this past May. Infamous royal Meghan Markle played the role of Rachel Zane in this drama about a New York-based corporate law firm.

The two main characters are Harvey—a hotshot, unbeatable, arrogant attorney—and Mike—a young, naive fraud with a photographic memory. From the very beginning, we watch Harvey mentor Mike on becoming a great lawyer.

In one of the most memorable scenes, the following dialogue takes place:

Harvey: What are your choices when someone puts a gun to your head?

Mike: What are you talking about? You do what they say or they shoot you.

Harvey: WRONG. You take the gun, or you pull out a bigger one. Or, you call their bluff. Or, you do any one of a hundred and forty six other things.

When Mike feels trapped in later episodes, he replays this conversation in his head and then creatively finds a solution to his predicaments.



The 146 Other Solutions to Career Change


This back-and-forth conversation feels wildly similar to many of my coaching calls. Often, a high achieving professional schedules a call and shares the limited alternatives they perceive are available to them.


Most recently, this happened on a coaching call with Katie. She felt trapped. She’d invested in her company for a number of years, and she felt there was nowhere left to advance. Her employer paid for an industry-specific certification course for her, which made her feel indebted, but she knew the certification wouldn’t change her position in the way she desired.

Katie only saw one way out: She had to quit.


However, in our conversation, I helped Katie see a multitude of options available. Yes, quitting may be one of the solutions, but in my years of coaching people through career changes, I’ve realized jumping jobs or industries isn’t a catchall solution. In fact, many people end up right back in the same career dissatisfaction quickly after their move.

The way my friend Maxie McCoy puts it, sometimes the big leap is BS. Changing without knowing the major reasons for dissatisfaction is a poor solution.



Don’t jump ship yet!


Some of the most common phrases I hear from clients include:

“I don't think I can go any further.”

“I'm looking to be able to grow.”

Or in Katie’s specific case,

“I’m a go-getter. I don’t feel like I can go get ‘em right now.”

Maybe you can relate. You feel stuck, and you only see one way out. Before jumping ship, I hope you’ll consider a few key questions:

  • Would you be willing to stay if something changed about your role?
  • What specifically do you need to ask for in order to love it in your current place of employment?
  • What can you do now to make sure you don’t get into a similar situation in your next role?



Lisa broke the (perceived) rules.


My recent coaching call with Katie reminded me of Lisa’s story.

When we first met Lisa, she felt conflicted; she loved her day-to-day work in nonprofit healthcare management, but she felt exhausted by the structures around the work. More specifically, as an introvert, she felt a daily drain from the office environment that placed her side-by-side with a multitude of coworkers. She had no issues with her coworkers, but her unique wiring left her feeling exhausted at the end of every work day. Sad to leave her job but ready for an energizing career, she contacted us.

Through coaching conversations, we helped Lisa realize she didn’t need to sacrifice a role she enjoyed for the energy she desired. She could change her thought process and discover her ideal career with a mindset we call “and thinking.”

People rarely use “and thinking.” We’re used to “either/or thinking,” where we must choose between things. Like choosing between feeling passionate about work and making a decent salary. Or in Lisa’s case, choosing between a fulfilling work and a comfortable, energizing work environment.

As we worked with Lisa, she admitted her ideal career would be working as an independent consultant, but she had no idea how to transition or overcome her fears of instability. Our conversations helped Lisa realize the solution wasn’t to up and quit, but to have a conversation with her employer about changing the employment agreement.

Since Lisa was well-respected in her company, the transition ended up being fairly easy. In her very first discussion with her boss, she walked away with her first client. Lisa was valued, and when she let herself creatively consider options that fit her unique needs, she found a solution that worked for both her and for her employer.

Lisa’s story is just one example of why identifying the core needs for your career is essential before making drastic changes. To hear my live coaching call with Katie to address her feelings that she’d advanced as high as possible in her job, click the play button below.

******Katie’s end resolution email ***** went from scared and unsure what to do to now having her boss as an advocate.


Katie and I did that coaching session a while back. Shortly after that she sent me an email.


Hey Scott,

Just wanted to update you since we talked a couple weeks ago. I took your advice and I talked to my boss, telling him how I wasn’t enjoying work, wasn’t challenged enough etc. And it could not have gone better! He has actually recommended me for a job as a sales rep for one of our suppliers, that is a more challenging, involved position. He realizes that the position I am in now at his company does not have longevity and room for me to continuously grow. And now I have a job interview with that company!


Just wanted to thank you for all your advice and help!



Katie Kalchman

Transcript from Episode 259

Scott: We go all the way back to episode 243, which we call six figure, VP to zero dollars. When you've had success and now you don't. It actually like be a fly on the wall. When we air to live coaching session with Robert, who's the VP, who's struggling to find work in that episode at the time when we aired. We got so much feedback people saying that. They appreciated it, and really loved hearing somebody else be able to work through what they were actually going through. The real things that they were actually going through rather than just the version of that happened afterwards. So we got so much feedback that we wanted to actually do it again. So we're going to. We’re actually let you listen to an actual coaching session. That I did with Katie a high achiever. Feeling as though she had nowhere to grow nowhere to advance in her current company.

Katie: Yeah. I think one of the things would be have more holes responsibilities. You know, the stuff I’m doing right now is pretty monotonous and boring. It's actually, so it be able to be challenged a bit more and have a responsibility to be able to, you know, I’m a creative thinking people to think outside the box. That's what they taking those chances do come up it once every couple months and I thought I love that because like all I don't answer that bother come on.

Scott: That's Katie Kalchman. Katie’s an activator ready to make a change for career happiness. But she has a few hindrances standing in our way, and if you've ever felt like you've top down your growth at a role, or a job, or a company, or a place in life, then you might have some things in common with Katie story. Take a listen.

Scott: So, catch me up a little bit on the situation. Tell me how this came to pass and then

Katie: yeah,

Scott: what's currently going on?

Katie: Yeah. So, I’ve been working with my current company for just over two years now, I work in, like, medical devices, like, orthopedic racing, foot, orthotics, all of that. So, it's definitely like a growing field but I've been working with a company for two years now.

Scott: Yeah.

Katie: And I'm about a year into working for the company owner to small daily run company.

Scott: Sure.

Katie: Came to me on and said, I want you to go through this program to become a pedorthist, which means like making custom foot orthotics. It's a year program is online. So you can work full time and we're going to pay for your tuition. So like, okay great. Tuition was totals about 10,000$ for dollars a year. So, I've had to pay nothing at which that was great. And I'm just coming to me. I just have one more exam today become certified. But what I realized is that, I don't want to stick with this company, essentially.

Scott: Oh, no.

Katie:  Well, It's a great company to work for it's very stagnant. Like, I once I'm done this, which is next three weeks. I'm kind of at my limit, like, I can't grow as a professional going very much more than that and I'm 25 years old. I know I'm better essentially better that people that further


Katie: So I'm not happy in the company. I say, I'm not challenge. There's like, my job is to see patients on devices and I just sometimes don’t see any patients certain days, and I just sit there and do nothing and drives me crazy. So I want to exit. I want to find any jobs to pursue different career path. But I feel obligated to stay, because they paid my tuition. So it’s like, I haven't signed the contract. I didn't sign anything saying I will stay for X number of years and I don’t like, that, I’m not legally signed anything. And I actually have a job interviews for another job next week, and I'm really interested in and I just don't know when and if I decide to leave what the best approach to doing so, is without breaking down a relationship that to strongly be coming across this ungrateful. I guess

Scott:  Yeah, and it sounds like if I'm reading between the lines correctly, it sounds like. Even though, you're not excited about the company any longer and even though you are interested in moving on it sounds like you're working with some people that you have enjoyed at least at one point and care about your success in one way or another.

Katie: Exactly. They're very good people and that's the thing is like I've known them. I did like placements with them in summers of University. So I've known them for

Scott: yeah

Katie: for quite a while and I just like they're good people, but it's just not right for me so that’s the kind of situation

Scott: That makes a ton of sense. So I completely understand why you feel that obligation and also recognize that you can't ignore these other feelings too and it seems as though they’re in conflict in some ways.

Katie: Yeah, I'm just unhappy, like, I'm miserable every day at work essentially which, you know, no, one wants to do.

Scott: Yeah, so can I ask you a few questions about?

Katie: Yeah,

Scott: the situation then

Katie: yeah, sure.

Scott:  So, you know, when you say, I'm pretty reasonably sure that I'm interested in leaving and you know  you’ve even gotten a job interview, this next week, how much do you know about what you want to be doing as your next step?

Katie: So that I don't really, like, I'm not like this is exactly what I want to do. I know I wanted to stay with the medical industry. So, the company that I have an interview for next week, a friend of mine works there and yes, he loves it. It’s still in medical field but it sounds like more in. I’m not sure they haven’t missed a two-striker like a medical device  company

Scott: yeah,

Katie: It’s worldwide and it's an incredible company to work for and their biggest thing is growth. And every time, every person I've ever talked to this book there is love said so I’m you know kind of would be going into that as like a stepping stone to see what could be next. So, I don't know for sure exactly. This is what I want to do. I don't have that I guess specific thing.

Scott:  Okay. What do you want most out of our time today?

Katie: What I want, it's just like I’m going to be leaving. So I know I'm going to beat this matter up. When is you know, the most appropriate time to it, to do it? And when I do it, what the best approach and what can I say, what should I say? And like what’s the best approach to discuss this when I say, you know what I've been off the other job. I’m going to be leaving. So I wouldn't leave the find another job. Like that.

Scott: Okay, why is that?

Katie: Well, it’s for job security? Like I'm not going to leave and not have another job just to go back into

Scott: Okay, totally. Okay. Everybody's got a different situation, but wanted to make sure that I understood what your situation is that primarily financial driven, or is that primarily something else

Katie: Mostly financially driven just because, you know, it's tough to get by nowadays without making any money. So, and I don't know when the next job opportunity would then arise.

Scott:  sounds good. Okay. So it sounds like one of the biggest reasons if I'm understanding correctly and please. Correct me, if I'm wrong, but from everything that you've said, so far Katie it sounds like one of the biggest reasons that you're interested in leaving is you don't believe that you're going to have the opportunity for growth be on this. And it also sounds like your current daily duties are getting to the point where you're experiencing some boredom and a lot less challenges and a lot less desirability in one way or another, compared of maybe when you previously started. Am I perceiving it correctly?

Katie: Absolutely, I know. Essentially, it some has time I was smarter than went extinct what I'm doing. I cannot challenged. Okay. That we got it. Right?

Scott: Sweet deal. So, here’s my question then you know, you want growth and that's something that many people are looking for. Absolutely, that's something I think we all need to human beings in one way, or there and I've also learned that growth looks completely different in what each of us individually. So, I'm curious, tell me a little bit about what you thought about already, in terms of what growth means for you?

Katie: I think for me I mean just being able to know just a little bit challenged, I think you know learn new skills, you know, continuing education, which is one of the reasons why you know, I took to this course, you know, it's another opportunity, it’s growth opportunity to learn new skills, to you know obviously salary increase and, you know, financial conversation it’s big part of, you know, it's why we work that we work to make money so, being able to provide have a stable living income. But definitely, I think for me, I'm very good driven person and I've always put up for a challenge and want to learn new things along the way, that’s what I’m got them interested and passionate about.

Scott: So you've used the word stable. A couple of times what does that mean? When you say stable what does that actually mean for you and why is it that you actually want that?

Katie: I think just because, you know, I'm at point I want to have a career. I've been out of school for four years now. So, it's like, I've been working for years and years, but I want to be able to be with a company that I can see myself with long term. And it was growth in that company and having a reputation, and a spot in a company that I can see myself brokers. I have two jobs in the past four years. But I want you to know, see myself in future in that one company.

Scott: Okay. In financial compensation wise. Do you or have you already thought about what you want? And what you need moving into the next role?

Katie: Yeah. So, I've already, like, I had a phone interview with them yesterday and discuss that as well and, you know, my job that I'm already on, I like I'm not going to be making potentially, the potential that I want to be able to make even if I stick it out for another five years, their just very unfortunately keep coming.

Scott: So I'm sorry, if I’m not sure I caught that totally. You said that the new company has a higher ability to pay in the old company is

Katie: much higher.

Scott: Okay. All right.

Katie: Yes.

Scott: What will you do with that? If you make much more.

Katie: Buy house,

Scott:  Perhaps

Katie: that's a goal, that's by my boyfriend in high school and that's our goal and my current financial situation. Like it's going to be year so before then

Scott: the weird question, but why is it so important for you to buy a house? Totally. Cool. I've had a house I bought multiple houses. Absolutely love having a house, but it's different for everybody. So, why is that important to you?

Katie:  I think it's just, you knows it, to have something to call if you’re going too old something I care right? but being able to have a place to know that I’m renting the jumping from place to place every year or to be able to you know have a home and I’ll be able to call that place, your home, and not just. You know, pay rents and that wastes money I mind, but, you know, today's economy, it's projecting your, Canada’s unaffordable to buy a houses

Scott: I have heard.

Katie: Yes, it was look bad, but yeah

Scott: yeah, especially in the areas that it sounds like you're interested in. Yes, so I live in Moses Lake, Washington and Moses lake Washington has the benefit of being very low cost of living, which is

Katie: Yeah

Scott: yeah, it's got a lake. It's beautiful 310 days a year of sun. But it's not for everybody. So the reason why I'm asking you a lot of the questions, like, this is I really want to understand what it is that you want to move too as well. And because here's a couple of things that I heard from you, I heard say, you, that, I'm definitely not going to leave until I have another job and I also know that you're interested in like, there's several different big reasons here. Why you're interested in leaving in the first place, and I know that one of the things that you want out of this is like the house and what should I do in order to leave an emancipated yourself almost. But also want to make sure that I understand deeply why you're leaving and also, what we're going to have you running too as well. It is, I find almost 100% of the time when people are running from something, but don't really have a great situation that lines up for them. Then, they eventually regret the decision to leave or regret the decision to move to where they went to or find themselves in a different version of the same place.

Katie: Right?  

Scott: so clearly you're already thinking about that and kudos for already thinking about that in the first place and I want to make sure that we can flesh that out a little bit further because that's going to have to do with how you end up leaving and how you communicate it and all of those other pieces as well. Is that fair?

Katie: Yeah, for sure.

Scott: Cool. So couple thoughts around that aside from growth and aside from the dream of owning something of your own and aside from and clearly, it' seems like even though you want to experience growth, it seems like you are looking for stability in a variety of areas of life. It almost seems like.

Katie: Yeah for sure

Scott: Yeah. And I don’t think that there's anything wrong with that. It sounds like you want to get several areas of your life that you have felt like are up in the air for all intensive purposes tie down. So that you can focus on other areas of growth that you want to be. And I might be perceiving that completely wrong. Please correct me where I've got it wrong.

Katie: No that’s something crack in. The thing is like, I can right now. I'm commuting to this job for 45 minutes each way as well so, you know, it's two hours a day almost out of my day. That’s a good job that I don't like.

Scott: Yeah which makes feel like seven hours, a day in a way?

Katie: Where it was a job that I love them, but yeah, no problem or has a job that, you know, I was five minutes away from home I was like, okay can you know it was? Yeah, yeah. Oh,

Scott: Yeah. Why don't like you to have to suck it up a bit more

Katie: either

Scott:  obviously, I'm a little biased. We run a company being called Happen to Your Career, and we help people not have to suck it up all the time. So I have very a biased view of this, but I don't think that you have to. I do really appreciate something. You know, one of the reasons why I was interested in talking to you about this in the first place about your challenge, your problem is, because it was clear to me that you were interested in taking care of your current employer. Even though it's not a great fit and I think that is amazing. I wish there were more people in the world that were doing that in one way, or another, even though, you know, you're going to be leaving. So okay couple of thoughts here and also, a couple of other questions along the way. So that we can get you what you're looking for out of this. Thought number one is I recognize that there's this opportunity that is right in front of you, that you're going to go in interview for and could be potentially a good fit. What I think that is going to be beneficial for you is being able to make sure that you are. Even more fleshing out what is that you really want and need out of this next role to and even deeper degree from what you already have. And we can, we can probably get some of that done on this call. But I think that that's going to be really important too and know that you have. I know that you followed us for a little while. Have you heard us talk about the ideal career profile file?

Katie: I'm not sure.

Scott: Okay. Well think about it is almost a checklist of what you want and need to be more happy more fulfilled growing more frequently. And think about it is creating your own personal checklist to make sure that as you move into the next role it has at a minimum, some of those things that you, you want and need. So you don't find yourself in a different version of the exact situation where maybe getting paid more. But there's a ton of other ways that it just absolutely doesn't line up and then, you know, four months into it, six months into it, you the honeymoon period wears off and like, oh, my goodness. What did I do?

Katie: yeah

Scott:  I don't want that to happen for you and that's part of the reason why I'm suggesting this in the first place. So we typically look at that in two different ways. We look at that minimum standpoint, in terms of, I'll just give you a couple examples here and then we can relate them back to you, but part of that might be, I know that if I'm driving more than 30 minutes to someplace day after day. It's going to drive me crazy and there's going to be an expiration date for me. It doesn't matter how cool the job is like, eventually that's going to wear off for me. I also know some really simple things for myself that if I'm working in a donegani type office where I don't have any exposure sounds like.   I'm going to get super grumpy and like, so those are me. I’m a weirdo and those are the things that I need but what I want for you is for you to be able to figure out some of those exact same pieces. We know some of the money side, and I would encourage you to look ahead even a little bit further you know what are you going to be very interested in doing be on the house. What is that going to look like as well houses from owning the number of them over the years? Always cost more than what you think they're going to in terms of maintenance and everything else. And then, as you in encounter other find other goals that also cost money, whether it be saving for other future things, or whatever else it might be, I want you to be able include those in there too. So, that if you are thinking about the whole picture, so, again, you don't find yourself in that other version and I'm just using this as an example. But the overall, point is we can go through each area. By the way that’s I can set you as an example of that ideal career profile. So you can go through for yourself and begin to say. Okay. And here's the type of environment I'm really interested and here's the ways that our most important  for me to grow here are the types of people that I want to associate with. Here is and be able to go through each section. Does that make any con-sense?

Katie: Yeah for sure.

Scott: Okay. So hold that thought in the back of your mind here and I'll send that to you right after this conversation but then the other side of it, let's talk directly about this. Why you're going to be leaving there and what that looks like? The relationship that you have with your boss, or whoever is paying the bills. Do you work directly with the owner of the company? Or how does that work?

Katie: Yeah. Certain days. So like very heavy like 30 employees and he's the owner Like they’re probably operation essentially but he will still be in my clinic once a week.

Scott: Okay

Katie: So yeah. Directly. Direct contact

Scott: Okay. It sounds like that's a key

Katie: yes.

Scott: Is he the person who authorized paying for your additional education?

Katie: Yeah

Scott: Alright fantastic. And with that, what conversation have you had? What implications were there? Or what was implied? Or was there anything implied? Or I know you didn't sign anything and I know that on paper on purpose, you didn't necessarily agree to anything. But where there are additional unwritten, or unsaid things that you're feeling. Help me understand what those are.

Katie: Yeah, I think it's essentially that you know, he his idea is that time he’s getting a certification it with great and more revenue for his company , so by him investing in me and it’s the best thing in the company to create more revenue  for the company overall. So I’ll be having yielded create more products essentially. So I think that’s his intentions as far as I know I can get this attention as well. If you’re under your school you’re going to apply that schooling and create new make money because I didn't ask him to do it. He asked me to do it.

Scott: Yeah.

Katie: And I like to hang out a free education. Okay, sounds good.

Scott: Yeah,

Katie: and I know that I don't know if it’s really matter, but I know that they did get some funding through government Africa partnership for my tuition. I don't know how much of it. It was the full thing as part of it, but I do know they got some funding from the government.

Scott: So why else are you feeling help me understand? Why else you feel this deep obligation here. See if you can put some of that into words form for me.

Katie: Because they have invested in me. You know they pretty much because I'd worked for this company obviously in like summers. It’s been like some student work. They had an opening and actually went out of their way to contact me for the job. So they said Katie we want you to work for us if you’re willing to work for us and I was going to go back to school for nursing actually and I might as well take the job. But if I want to go back to nursing another time I can so when I kind of put those plans on hold took the job and you know like it and then kind of gone whole thing. Okay they paying my school fees this is awesome but now that I’m done school and just like this is not what I wanted.

Scott: This is not an awesome.

Katie: I thought it was going to be, you know, I'm a loyal to a fault. I think that’s one of my problems with them equal to a fault in a way and I just don't want to have you known guy but the owner for you know 10 years  and I just would feel you know for only as a like an employer but like I had friends to just kind of say thanks. See ya! I just feel bad, but I know it. Sometimes you just have to be selfish for yourself and that's where kind a point of that.

Scott: right  definitely I agree that you do have to be able to take care of yourself, it doesn't always have to be selfish necessarily and I think that there's very often ways that we can do both. So, let me ask you. Let's, go for a hypothetical question here. I know you're planning on leaving, but let's say for just a second that you weren't and if you were in some other hypothetical universe to stay what specifically would have to change, if you just like wave your magic wand  and don’t like, trying keep all the restrictions and the reality and everything at your head for just a second here, and in this other hypothetical universe, what would have to change for you to be like, oh, my goodness this would be I would just keep on going.

Katie: Yeah, I think one of the things would be to have more goal responsibilities you know  they suffering right now pretty monotonous and boring actually so I would be able to challenge a bit more have more about responsibilities to be able to you know pay the thing to think outside the box. That’s what’s thing. That those chances do come up you know once every couple months and I like, I’m going to love this. It happens do like came up so there are parts about that I do enjoy the best thing to be able to have more to be able to act my whole potentials.

Scott: What's an example of one of those popped up where you’re like, oh this is awesome

Katie: so we worked directly with like surgeons. Like pedorthist surgeons the plastic surgeons.

Scott:  Yeah

Katie: so the surgeons will come to us and say like hey I have this difficult patients like who need this type of device? Like can you do it? I don't know, give me like two hours all that you know and  you know wrack my brain what I have to work with and then come up with a solution and then I ended up working for the patients and everyone, you know I’m happy with the results. The patients happy with the results the doctors happy with the results. So, being able to really creativity think can apply you know my knowledge is something that you now just not it’s difficult thing I really enjoy.

Scott: Okay.

Katie: it’s like little bit of innovation kind of creativity and that’s why I love and that happens once every couple of months

Scott: Okay. What else would have to change clearly? The clearly the compensation that would be a big thing, is what I’m perceiving you to accomplish some of your other goals here, how much we that need to change? Talk to me specific numbers from how much like

Katie: So, I only reason on getting a raise for over two years. The only reason I'm getting raise is because of my new certification. So I've done a lot other thinking about other roles outside of my job description.

Scott: Yep.

Katie: And lot of thinking the company thinks market the company in the community and the only reason getting that raises is because my certification. And so it just kind of you know it’s kind of perfection only value me anywhere else in a way and I know, my coworkers that you've been there for over five years. They promise me that they never gotten you know not even getting any raises even asking for them to like no, so their unfortunately. Anyway for their employees and all the other employees that I work with are pretty much like. They’re going to be there for us like their saddles and that's what they're going to do forever and people complain that they complain all the time, but they don't do anything about it

Scott: don't give me story about that. That’s another show for them

Katie: I don’t want to be those people you know what I mean?

Scott: Yes

Katie:  I don't want to be one of those and so yeah,

Scott: so when you say that? Are you also saying that some of that culture would have to change too?

Katie: Yeah, it's not very like owe with my boss, he’s  a very cool thinking he’s very like what’s next me to do as a company. But everyone else I work with is just got to go to the rules every day. So we all having that kind of direct you know influence in a work day in a day doesn't motivate me

Scott: Yeah

Katie: Right? it’s just like another day, another dollar, like, here we are again, nine to five and go home next day and no one else ever tried to step up to improve themselves

Scott: Yeah,

Katie: right so to be that kind of work environment it's just kind of sometimes degrading.

Scott: Okay. What else would have to change? That's amazing. By the way.

Katie: I don't know to be honest. Like

Scott: Well, you've got a magic wand here. So, you might as well wave it around,

Katie: I know, like, it's not like, you know what I mean is it’s terrible because I don't think it’s a right thing for me. That’ll be the right to somebody else who this is your content and satisfied. But I think, like, if anyone were to tell you to describe me, like, a person, like personally around is like, I’m a go getter. And i just don't feel that like, i can go get him where I am right now. I don't want to be stuck there for potentially longer than I have to.

Scott: Yeah. So it would have to be some pretty big changes is what I’m perceiving from that in this alternate universe  where like, the entire literally, the entire culture would have to change to where you are surrounded by other go getters. You are, I'm going to use the word empowered, but that's not quite what I'm looking for, but essentially, like, empowered to be set up to able to go get them

Katie:  And the thing is I’ve told them because I scold my boss the thing like I’m bored like I told him I’m bored give things to do. I’ve told him like the owner where the manager. I’m bored, how can I help them according to do and nothing happens.  So I verbalize with them such that I'm not happy. I’m bored, I’m not challenge and I got nothing.

Scott: Yeah, usually, you won't not because you’re a bad person. But I mean, I've owned a number of businesses over the years and I've been in many leadership roles. It's hard to know what to do with that. So it’s completely different if you went and had asked him. Hey, you know, here's what I'm looking for I had a ton of fun with this project here at the other day where Surgeon called me, I got to rack my brain. I had to creatively thinking can I innovate here, exactly what I'm doing I want to do that for, you know, seven of my eight hours, a day and right now I'm spending a ton of time where I'm not doing anything  much of the time. I'm not feeling challenge I am looking specifically for other projects. Here are three of them that I thought that might be a great fit for your business and also would be a ton of fun for me to work on which of these do you think that would be actually what great fit for you too that, you be excited from take the reins and be able to lead on? That’s the completely different on type of request. Does that make sense? How could be different. That's something that you're not just this boss, but future boss in future leaders too can do something with. Because when go you in, this is not intended to call you out, or anything along those lines. I'm only going into it, because I want you to go into the next role too and be able are get want you want and get what you need. When you ask for specifically what you want and when you do so, in a way that is helpful to the other person. So, they don't have to do all the extra work.

Katie: Right?

Scott: Then you'll find that miraculously you get exactly what you want and they look at you as like, their star performer

Katie: right

Scott: Does make any sense at all?

Katie: Yeah for sure. Knowing that something definitely good idea

Scott: So, definitely, no matter where you're at. The more that you always want to be looked at as the top performer. That's an easy way to be able to make that happen. Make it easy on the other person to give you exactly what you want and help them in exact same time. But I'm only going into that for detail for just a second just because I what you build have that going forward. And it's going to be relevant to this conversation too that you're going to have. It might even be a series of conversations. So let me articulate back to you what I heard from you really quick. So, I heard that the big disconnect here are that you're not really being challenged very frequently at all. It's like, every couple of months for you getting the challenge and I also heard on the flip side of that one of the biggest things you're looking for is to be able to experience growth by being challenged. Is that right?

Katie: Absolutely

Scott: Okay so that means that basically, for months at a time, you're not getting exactly what you feel you need most, which is not a surprise. You're not having fun,

Katie: right?

Scott: But that's thing number one. Thing number two I heard is that your financial goals don’t appear to align with what you're currently being paid out and well, that may fit for that business model. I don't know maybe he doesn't have a lot of margin. I have no idea what is the business model is that at all. Maybe he’s paying you the very top that he can pay. I have no idea.

Katie:  Very wealthy but that thing it's not the right fit for me.

Scott: Yeah, if it doesn't align it doesn't align.

Katie: exactly

Scott: Absolutely. So, you know, that's a really big disconnect and there's this huge element of the culture too that you want to be in a place where you are not just being challenged, but also are you can take it and you can run with it and you're around other people that are doing that too. And right now what you’re experiencing is that you know all of the employees not all but some of the employees at a minimum complain about their situation and complain about not being paid enough and complain about not having great situation but they don’t really do anything about it. And that’s not the type of people that you are interested in surrounding yourself with on a daily basis.

Katie: you got it

Scott: Okay, so also you have this long-term goal, or you wanted to be, you know, not to be too long term to be able to own a house and that's something that’s really important to you and additionally you’re spending a pretty significant amount of time commuting that adds up to well over an hour and a half each day.

Katie: Yeah,

Scott: so it sounds like on top of that. You also very much have appreciated the opportunity. Appreciated that he was investing in you, but feel like it for all of these reasons no longer aligned? Am I getting the stuff right or what. Would you want to change your add? okay

Katie: You got it

Scott: Okay. Could you tell him? Exactly that? Because I just I took your words and just show it back with you.

Katie: I don’t know, I think it’s not to be honest too hard on too far gone

Scott: Too hard on in what way?

Katie: In the way that like I know I don't know of anything that he can do now with make me want to stay.

Scott: I think that's okay, I think you could share that too.

Katie: So, another thing is like, I would my I guess plan or my how I could see things unfolding is this job that I'm interviewing for is I know that pays for its in 10 minute drive from my house it has room for growth and I know people working the company they only have good things to say about it. It has been ranked one of the top countries in the world as you know best employers is the kind of go a heaven thing. Listen, I’m not happy. There’s a reason why I have a job opportunity, but I just don’t know how he’s going to react because ones I say just pay for your  schooling and the schooling that I’ve gone through it’s not even applicable to the job

Scott: I totally agree. So, let me backup half a step here. So one of the things that I heard you say at the very beginning, is that, I don't want to burn bridges and you didn’t say exactly this. But my impression was that you wanted to be able to have the conversation in a way where it would allow him to understand and create a most productive situation coming out of it as you leave the role.

Katie: I just want to do it right?

Scott: Yeah,

Katie: Essentially

Scott: Okay. So, I think the most respectful way that you can do this as you are having that conversation at whatever point in time with him that you share the exact same things the truth with them. And so all of these pieces I think are really important for him to know and understand and all of these pieces are exactly how you feel about it and all of the pieces are the real reasons why you would be interested in leaving. And I think that when you don't share those, then that's going to be a higher likelihood that it dissolves into a bad situation or a bad feelings or other things along those lines when you don't share those, then it is higher opportunity build the bridge or burned the bridges when you do share it those then that creates a more trusting situation. I think the most trusting situation could be though if you went to him, sooner rather than later before you leave and had a job offer and shared some of the these things too, which might not always be the most comfortable situation. However if you want to create a good situation out of the outcome and that’s something that’s really important to you. Then you have to set the other person up for a good situation too.

Katie: Right

Scott: It doesn’t work one way like you know like drop a good situation on the other person and like at the last minute, necessarily you have to create a good situation in every sense of it. So let’s talk through part of that. And how that could be possible. And it might not be, but let’s try and spend a couple of minutes here and trying to determine how this could look  and how this could be a real possibility to make it the best possible situation for you and him. Okay I know that you are, I can tell in your voice that you’re looking at this other job as the out

Katie: Yeah. And I'm so, like, I'm not thinking putting all my eggs in this basket either. Like I’m still seeing without them but it’s really just come on so fast. Like, I just saw the job opportunity. I know a friend who works there, he sent my resume and they're like, wonderful interview, can you come in next week? So it’s all happening very fast. I don’t expect it happen it fast

Scott: Yep

Katie: So, I’m just kind of trying to prepare to say and when I talk to me yesterday and said, when did your interest of start date? And they said, we don't know yet. It could be like me. So I’m just kind of compare if it happens to the sooner than later, and then accepts all happened so fast. And it kind just of happened hope that we planted our conversation for today. I thought that was, you know. I believe things happen for reasons that I thought that was pretty ironic that it rip our conversation played out.

Scott: Yeah

Katie: Yeah. I’m like seriously taking this opportunity like this job as potential opportunity seriously.

Scott: My experience is also that especially when you go looking for it, you can find other opportunities just as fast as well. It's a crazy thing once you start putting your effort and time and energy and to going after something. And you're more of a go getter as you said, anyways.

Katie: Yeah.

Scott: So like, when you go get your going to start getting.

Katie: Yeah.

Scott: Is what will happen. So you know, I come back to that, because I want to make sure that again, we don't have you end up in this role. Only because it looks like a really good thing without actually validating that it is in fact, a great thing. Plus this impacts I think how and when you talk to your current boss.

Katie:  For sure

Scott: What would you see as the what has it see what you have and going to have a conversation with him tomorrow to raise some of these issues.

Katie: I don't know. It just hasn’t would be just like thing a bad taste in his mouth. Yeah, I know when these disappointing him, but I guess that's kind of it again like, I know we can have a Tumblr. I don't want to like, losers shit essentially, but I don't know I just be like I've told them that I was like, I've said, I'm, you know, I'm bored, and I want to be challenged more sort of thing, but I just think it's the fact that I'm still technically finishing up this course.

Scott: Yep.

Katie: Is my biggest thing is because I'm not like, I've three more weeks I've done my school, and I've just  one more certification exam left. So I’m in still in the fact that I'm still in it. This was like, you know, six months after I've been done it. I think it’s going to be a bit different.

Scott: Has he already paid for it? Like,

Katie: Yeah

Scott: Like bill are already been paying

Katie: Yeah like tuition have paid and everything. Yeah. So, that's what I do like if I get approaching and say, you know, I don't like, I'm so grateful thankful for, you know, the investment like do I offer to take. Don't you want to pay you know what I mean what do I offer some accomplish to him

Scott: What would it take for you to feel really good coming out of this conversation? No matter what? Like,

Katie: I think just, I'm saying. Like he knows me really well, I think him to say, you know, like Katie I completely understand where you're coming from. I can see that tripping and be like, I'm not that proud of you, but, like, I'm happy for you wherever the road takes you some sort of thing you know what I mean, in terms you’re of career growth but I don't think he's going to say that.

Scott: What are the reasons you perceive that, that may not happen?

Katie: Because he pays for my schooling. I think he'd be like piss essentially

Scott: Because you'd pissed

Katie: No, I hate it could, he would be because he spend all this money on me and I'm even not going to be able to give back to the company with my new found certification.

Scott: If you left tomorrow, will you feel good about leaving the company? Let's say that you had the perfect opportunity but you feel good at leaving at that point?

Katie: To be honest at this point I feel good about leaving. Yeah, I feel bad in a sense of like it’s essentially done wasting their money on me or I kind of feel bad, but I at the point that I wouldn’t feel bad about leaving now.

Scott: Okay

Katie: They don’t have to treat me very well. Something to treat me else just not the right fit for me.

Scott: Yeah, totally

Katie: Right. It's nothing against them and that’s the thing. It’s not you it’s me essentially situation.

Scott: Yeah and we know how good that feels because is there’s anybody

Katie: Yeah. Exactly, so that I want to feel you know I wouldn’t really

Scott: Part of what I'm trying to get at here is there are some deep seated reasons here. Why you wanted, why this was a thing for you? Why originally you contacted us in a first place? Right? And I want to make sure that I'm getting out all of them for you. So, that we can create a situation where it is most likely to result in what would allow you to feel good on all fronts? And so that’s part of the reason why I’m kind of going around and asking of some every angle

Katie: Yeah for sure

Scott: On this particular type of question when you say, he has a temper what would you mean by that?

Katie: Like, he can, you are something doesn’t go his way one of his mood sense like you will he you never yelled at me, but it's yelled at me like, just that gloss and she didn't do anything. But the patient wasn't happy situation, he wasn't in the meeting, just kind of those are frequently

Scott: Frequent thing,

Katie: Frequent but it's been known but to happen more than once was not a one off

Scott: For other types of, you know, I would call it like, more conflict type situations that you've had with him.

Katie: No. I've never had any conflicts now.

Scott: Okay. Here's a couple of thoughts that I have. I think that he's going to feel the best. If you can set him up the best for what he need. So I don’t know lLike, if you, like, what would happen, if you left here, what would like, how would that change his world? Like, Where's he going to have to, like, compensate? Is he going to have to work additional hours? Like, other people on the team? Like, how is going this to impact to the world.

Katie: To be honest? Like I don't really know, because like, I'm not that I'm not that busy. Like, it's not like “hi guys” sometimes like today, for example, I hope step out today but I've seen one person in nine hours today. So, I don't like people would have hired somebody needing part time. I would think, but it's not like, I'm swamped and evil eyes on me for much that I fell

Scott: So, if you left, then, like, other people, there are other people there to take that load.

Katie: Yes, there are. They won't be happy about it, but there would be. Yes.

Scott: So it's not like, he would have to immediately train somebody new and all business would stop or

Katie: No. Like, you want to hire somebody new, but it could get by.

Scott: Is there anything else that would be a big deal?

Katie: No, just like, just the whole education thing.

Scott: I think that there is probably a little bit of a risk that it could be, you know, a big issue if you went and had a conversation and if you could see bit wrong. I don't perceive that risk is super high based on everything that you told me. But, may I sure what I would do if I were in your shoes for just a minute, and then we can and then from that, we can figure out what is the plan that makes sense for you and your world. Is that sounds good?

Katie: Yeah, absolutely.

Scott: Okay. So, here's what I would do if I were found myself and woke up in your shoes, and I think initially showing let me ask you one more question here really quick for the remaining time that you're there. Would you prefer to be doing things that are more interesting while you're there? Or would you prefer to just, suck it up and go as well.

Katie: I think probably a suck it up and to be honest with you, I can't see myself after more than the about develop mentally going insane.

Scott: Okay. You know I think I would go and I would have this conversation with him initially, and be able to share. You know here's what I’ve been experiencing. I really appreciate it. All the time that I've spent here and I really appreciate you investing in me, and I really appreciate all of the things that have come along with that. Also, at the same time, I'm finding that. You know what I've shared with you in the past, is that I'm bored. I am not experiencing the challenges that I'm interested in experiencing and I wanted to come and talk to you about that. Also, because I'm trying to figure out what I should be doing to resolve that and I wanted to be upfront and honest with you about that because I appreciate how much you have. How much you've done for me. And Note I also know that I can't keep doing this over the long term in the exact same way. So, I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to be doing about that and wanted to be able to share that with you and have a direct conversation. Now that doesn't mean, I'm leaving tomorrow or anything like that. It does mean, I'm trying to consider what would be right for me. So I felt like if I owned the business and I had to work for somebody for quite a while and everything that I would want somebody to come to me and talk about this too in and share how they're feeling. So, and the reasons why. So more than happy to have any other conversation or answer questions or anything else along those lines. However that's what I'm feeling right now, and I recognize that I need to do something differently. I do not know what that is at the present moment

Katie: But something has to change

Scott: But something has to change and that's part of what I'm working on to figure out. So that's what I wanted to share with you. I'm more than happy to keep you posted on relay as I figure out some of that stuff but right now this is what I would appreciate it. If I were running business, and then what I want somebody to come to me to talk about. And that's the type of conversation that I don’t have. I don't think it would make sense to say, hey, I'm going to leave in two months or something like, because you don't even know that. That's not the real truth. And I don't want you to even though you would like to leave sooner rather than later. Like it’s not truthful to tell him that look I'm out of here, because you don't know when or exactly where or how, so I think you can share what is in fact. The legitimate truth.

Katie: Yeah so, let's say though, it does drop it on. At this job that I'm probably fine for says to me we want to offer you the job. Can you start you know in a month?

Scott: Yeah.

Katie:  I would say, like, I have to think about it, I wouldn’t say yes spot, but in that case, I'll think about it, and let's say I decide yes I want to do it. I have not yet had that conversation with him

Scott: For one you definitely call us back up and we help you negotiate for the like that.

Katie: Yeah. It’s seems going to be, like, going quite quickly with it. So, I don't know you know what I mean, how like I going to have if it does.

Scott: I think that and again this is assuming you have this conversation like tomorrow and by the way, if you did that I at any point in time, I think that the way that you do that is you contact them and say hey I have something really important that I want to talk to you about and you actually schedule a time to you're not interrupted by stuff and all of those types of things you can actually have an important conversation without I don't know him taking seven phone calls or whatever else but you know whenever that takes place, I think you sure whatever the most current version of the truth is at that point in time if they've made you a job offer at that point in time where like, they have given you, like, real salary and everything like that, and it looks like it could be a good fit. Then I think it’s appropriate to share with him. But if you learn

Katie: I have job opportunity

Scott: Yeah. Absolutely. And you can you can say that I've got, you know, I've had another job opportunity that I'm considering right now. I don't know if it's the right fit. I haven't accepted it.  Wanted to be very upfront and honest with you that I was even e considering something else and I think that's how the conversation gets adjusted and then later on. I think as you know more truth you have additional conversation with him about what you're moving to and as you figure out more of what you need to then I think you would be more transparent with him about that as well that's going to help and then I think before you leave if you can share with him some of those other pieces to I don't think it's relevant in this first conversation necessarily. But I think it's a big part of it. It would be useful for him to understand that. Hey part of these why I'm leaving it because many of the other people here you know feel like they're underpaid they complain about stuff. And they don't really do anything about it and although that's fine for them and they seem to be reasonably happy doing that. That's not something. I'm interested in being surrounded by over the long term. And I Think that you can be very transparent with them because as a business owner, I know I'd want to know about that so I can actually do something about it as well. So I think that sets you up for both ways. If you don't have another job offer or anything else then obviously you don't have that piece of conversation about as you hit another job offer. I think you do him the courtesy to wrap back around and continue to share more and more. And I think that that's the best way to have a highest chance for this to come out where he has still has a really high degree of respect for you and although he may not like the decision. He can still feel good about how it was resolved.

Katie: Yeah,

Scott: Yeah as opposed to even if you've not excited about I just dumped a bunch of cash into you and now you’re going, but part of that is the risk that you take as a business owner as well that you’re acknowledge

Katie: Yeah exactly but you don’t have to ask me do and to ask him to it why he offered which is very generous obviously

Scott: Yeah. Absolutely does that help provide a strip for you and it plan for you to make that happen?

Katie: Yeah it’s kind of ironic that I actually have this opportunity coming out I mean if I didn’t I would obviously no planning on having a conversation. I think anyway, so just you know the best way to go about it essentially

Scott: Yeah

Katie: My one question is for you as you know with this on interview that I have next week if they ask for references. I can’t really give them my current employer because they have no idea that I’m applying any job or we’re having dinner here.

Scott: I found for myself. And obviously I'm a little biased in a lot of different ways, but I found for myself, that's one of the big benefits to having these types of conversations. . As soon as you're feeling like you believe where you can have an open conversation where your employer or maybe even supporting you and going someplace else. I've done that a lot of times personally and we've helped many hundreds of people do that in ways where they didn't think it was going to be possible and we're super nervous about it.

My experience is that typically the benefits of having a conversation like this with them. Even if you don't have all the information sooner rather than later usually outweigh the risks. Not always and that’s are the reason why I was asking about the temper and everything like that. But I don't perceive that there is a massive risk here. There's a little bit.

Katie: Yeah. I don't know. I just think like my interviews on tuesday series of interviews on Tuesday, and I like to call in sick to work in order to go to this interview because I think he would not be pleased to know that I'm going somewhere. They going to think. I just don’t know and the goodbye very well like it just because it's so short notice.

Scott: Yeah, I don't know whether that would be or not. My experience is that in order to in order to be given grace you have to give other people trusting grace to be able to do have the opportunity to be read as well. So that's something that I can't decide for you.

Katie: Yeah. I know. Of course. I just wasn't sure what your physic experience in.

Scott: My experience was for myself and for a number of the other people that you know, I've worked with personally is that I usually look at it in terms of like what am I going to what am I going to feel good about at the end of the day for me that has always resulted and this is necessarily For me to you, but it is always resulted  for me personally and sharing much more than I'm comfortable with the other parties, and typically that's my boss or my boss's boss. And taking in many cases a much larger risk with that type of level of sharing and I it allows me personally to be able to sleep at night for my own. Benefit but those are things that I get tied up in for myself and my own personal expectations and what I do isn't necessarily right for everybody,

Katie: Of course. Yeah, like I have another like reference that could use obviously it’s not could be like I worked there part-time but it's not like current main employer essentially

Scott: References. Usually aren't that big of a deal honestly

Katie: Okay,

Scott: you know, there are certain industries but it's a huge deal and certain people where it’s a huge deal but most of the time people that where you can have a conversation say look I think that my current

Katie: If I would honest with them

Scott: Yeah, exactly honesty is the best policy

Katie: And thing is that that I was like my current employer does not know that I'm applying for this job. So therefore I that's reason why I can't give you but I have another employer for year if that would be able to provide your reference. And the reason I got my resume was to a reference as to whether current employers.

Scott: Yeah

Katie: So technically that kind of works as a reference and itself.

Scott:  Sure.

Katie: Right

Scott:  I would place stock in that references are don't have a PC way to put it I guess but generally references or like a stupid people check. Because right everybody who's going to put down a reference is going to put down some of the good and less there. Just hiding out.  Like no concept

Katie: Yeah.

Scott: Is that help?

Katie: Yeah.

Scott:  Okay. Did we hit what you originally wanted out of this time?

Katie: I think so. I think I feel a lot better. I think my point this interview on Tuesday, so

Scott:  Amazing

Katie: How to approach it what not and I don't think I'll get the chance to the days that I do see in many ways and I have to call protocol is that there’s interview, which I feel bad about doing but I don't really have another option.

Scott: Well, you could call him today and set up a half an hour to have that discussion sooner rather than later. And then

Katie: Yeah, I can try and come Monday. Maybe it depends what his schedule is like

Scott: I’m sure if you said it was it's important that my experience is that people will make time for you when you declare any important. I really have something that’s important for me to talk to you about. That would take about 30 minutes’ times of your time. Is there any way so we can find 30 minutes between now in Monday what could they look like for you?

Katie: Yeah. I almost put a sense of urgency

Scott: Absolutely! Well, it is important.

Katie: Yeah.

Scott:  He loves know what you thought about that session with Katie that opportunity to be a fly on the wall with an actual coaching session and email us hello at happy your career.com and let us know what you thought but there's one more piece of this story too because it’s Been a little while since Katie and I talked and a few weeks after that. She actually sent me an email. Here's the email said “hey Scott. I just want update you since we talked a couple weeks ago. I took your advice and I talked to my boss telling him how I wasn't enjoying work wasn’t challenged enough Etc. It could not have gone better. His actually recommended me for a job. It’s a sales rep. for one of our suppliers that is a more challenging more involved position. He realizes that the position I'm now in, in  his company does not have longevity in room for me to continuously grow and I now have a job interview with that other company. I Just wanted to thank you for all your advice and help thanks! Katie” this stuff with your career is messy it's emotional it is a little bit scary at times. And it's something that quite frankly you shouldn't have to go through a long time. So I really hope that call listening to Katie and her situation and being able to work through that and also even see some of what happened in the end because if you remember she was actually quite a bit shall we say not excited to go and have that type of conversation with the box and she found the courage and she did it and clearly it's paid off for her. And that's very much what we see along the way. Being willing to have that kind of vulnerability and seek out help and being able to do it in a way that is going to be productive and honest and live within your values and your integrity we see very few times. Where that ends up being a negative in fact we see so many more stories when we work with people like Katie where it comes out as a huge positive. And by the way, listen to this type of call or the one that we did with Robert back on the episode 243. That should give you an accurate picture of how marketing can help you identify crew desires. And then usually we know about psychology what we know about careers to help you take your best steps forward and if you want to live your best life, you can always go at any point in time over at https://happentoyourcareer.com Click on coaching tell us more about your situation then schedule a call with our team our director of success for students and clients. And we'll help you figure out the very best way that we can help but just like Katie you know I think the more that you find those ways to be able to be honest in be able to live within your own values and not ignore that and not push that aside even though it's scary and regardless of whether you're working with us or working with anybody else or just you're seeking out a mentor or something else get that type of help because this stuff doesn't come easy and it's always much  more like a marathon than as sprint. We have so much more coming up in store for you. Next week right here on Happen To Your Career.