Solving the Problem for Multipotentialites:
“What do I want to do with my life?
By the time you turned 5 years old, you were likely asked what you wanted to do with your life anywhere from 10 to 1,000 times. This commonly poised question begins as a harmless conversation starter for cute little kindergarteners, but as kids age into teenagers and young twenty-somethings (and even thirty-somethings and far beyond), the formerly harmless question turns into an overwhelming and high stakes challenge.
In many ways, this problem for multipotentialites (also called multipods) is akin to being in the infamous Matrix dilemma. It’s as if choosing a career path is being forced to decide, “Red pill or blue pill?”
But in actuality, the question for multipotentialites moves from two variables to infinity: “Magenta pill or golden pill or robin egg’s blue pill or violet pill or mauve pill or sage green pill or forest green pill or kelly green pill or turquoise pill……?” The list goes on and on.
Difficulty in answering this question can continue for decades. Often, the indecision carries with it a feeling of failure.
But here’s the good news: Multi-passionate people are not failures; they are simply multipotentialites.
Dear Multipod, you can stop feeling like a failure.
In 2015, Emilie Wapnick led a TED talk where she defined the multipotentialite as someone with many interests and many pursuits. She recognized the change in career culture over time, as the Renaissance era applauded people with many talents instead of promoting feelings of failure over those who struggle to narrow scope.
While there are certainly people who seamlessly fit into one specialized field and career path, there are others who don’t.
The secret to a successful and fulfilling career is not molding yourself into a preformed and predefined job. The key is to design our lives and careers that align with the way we are wired. (And if that happens to fit a predefined job, awesome. If not, let’s do something about it.)
“We should all be designing lives and careers that align with the way we are wired.”
– Emilie Wapnick
In layman’s terms: Even though refusing to choose one path can feel frustrating, you’re not a failure. You’re a multipotentialite. You can stop forcing yourself to fill someone else’s calling.
Your multipotentiality (probably) correlates to your personality type.
After Emilie defined multipotentiality, Melanie Buford took the research to another level.
Melanie, like you, identifies as a multipod. She enjoys helping multi-talented students discover a future that fits their unique wiring, and she loves digging into data on multipotentialites, personality tests, and strengths assessments.
A few years ago, Melanie was charged with developing a course for 227 undecided freshmen at University of Cincinatti. In designing the course, she pulled in MBTI assessment, Clifton’s Strengthfinder, and various other typing systems that help reveal motivations and strengths. Knowing her students’ propensity for multiple interests, she included Emilie’s book on Multipotentialites. Pressed to prove validity of the course, she also created pre- and post-course surveys to monitor feelings of clarity.
When the data had been collected, Melanie began identifying patterns. She found that a major percentage of her self-identified multipotentialite students fell into a group of “Idealists.” Idealist is the term, coined by Kiersey, that includes all individuals with an N and F in their Myers Briggs type. One quarter of multipotentialites tested as ENFPs, and half of the group tested as INFJs or INFPs.
When compared to Clifton Strengthsfinder, Melanie found that 43% of her multipotentialite students listed Restorative as a top strength, and 42% listed Adaptability as a top strength. Conclusion: There’s reason to believe specific strengths and personality types struggle to choose one calling.
Second conclusion: You can find success and fulfillment as a multipotentialite, but it will require a unique path. This path should be built off your interests and strengths.
How multipotentialites Find Fulfillment
(And Make Money Doing It)
After listening to Emilie’s TED talk and seeing how her approach to career fulfillment (working within your wiring as opposed to trying to change yourself) aligned with the Happen To Your Career methodology, we knew we had to interview her.
A while back, we asked Emilie to lead a session for our Career Change Bootcamp students. In this session, Emilie moved from the theory of multipotentiality to the practicality of living out your multi-talents.
She shared four approaches to collecting a stable income with a varied work life:
- The Group Hug Approach
- The Slash Approach
- The Einstein Approach
- The Phoenix Approach
These approaches may be combined depending on the person. If you don’t feel like you fit into one category, well…that makes sense. Just combine approaches to fit your needs.
Over and over again, you will see how the most important element to your career happiness is building your work life around your unique wiring.
The Group Hug Approach
The Group Hug approach is defined by having a multifaceted job or business that allows you to wear many hats and shift between several domains.
Many multipods find career happiness by working in interdisciplinary fields like teaching, urban planning, and architecture. The main point here is to serve in a role with very different talent needs that all fall under one umbrella.
Take, for example, a teacher at a Waldorf school.
While the role of teacher in a traditional education system may sound monotonous over time, the role of Waldorf teacher is constantly changing. These teachers are responsible for all the subjects their students are learning, which enables teachers to make connections across study material and provide a more holistic education. Teachers must be comfortable with subjects requiring left brain and right brain interaction, and some teachers even move up grade levels with their students. Every day is different, even across long stretches of time.
This is a perfect example of a Group Hug role.
If you’re struggling to find an interdisciplinary field that you’d enjoy on your own, you can also seek out other multipods. Find out where they hang out, and ask for their career advice.
If that doesn’t work, you can identify organizations that are open-minded with their positions and responsibilities. Small businesses are often in need of people who are multitalented; you could be hired as a graphic designer and end up delivering presentations at trade shows.
The Picture-Perfect Group Hug
Remember Melanie Buford who we mentioned earlier? She’s the poster child for a group hug approach.
When Melanie was making a college decision, she felt torn between two very different directions: On the one hand, she had a knack for math, and she felt she could excel in an engineering type role. On the other hand, Melanie felt fascinated by psychology and humanities. These two areas of interest had little to no overlap, so not only was Melanie choosing between majors but also universities.
This was the first time Melanie experienced the familiar pull of the multipotentialite journey.
After college, Melanie accepted a role with Americorps and moved to San Francisco, where she participated in a program called Public Allies. Working for Americorps was a combination job (i.e. interdisciplinary/group hug job), as Melanie served at a nonprofit for four days per week and spent her Fridays completing Public Allies’ social justice leadership development program. Melanie and her coworkers were passionate, multifaceted people.
Fast forward to now, and Melanie has become a professor of career education for the University of Cincinnati, researcher and nonfiction writer, nonprofit supporter, and science fiction writer. She says 8)% of her daily role is spent teaching and the other 20% is spent serving on committees and doing research. She has flexibility to fill this 20% however she likes.
And the 80% of teaching is not mundane. Remember how she got to create a class for over 200 undecided students? This challenge and freedom satisfies her multipod needs.
Melanie found career happiness by combining her strengths and interests in an interdisciplinary role.
Listen to Melanie’s whole story here:
The Slash Approach
Chances are you know someone balancing a ton of part-time jobs. For people with varied interests, living the dream could mean balancing drastically different part-time roles. (We are talking about those people who intentionally work part-time roles so their career allows them to work in completely separate passions, as opposed to those working a handful of part-time jobs just to pay the bills.)
Consider Multipotentialite Heather. Over the last two years, Heather has worked as a project coordinator for a prison rehab program, bartender, donor coordinator for a nonprofit helping Syrian refugees, dog walker, self-employed life coach, juice specialist, enneagram trainer, taproom pourer, and Episcopal campus minister.
Wow. Hope you didn’t read that all in one breath.
Ok, you caught me. She wasn’t doing ALL of that at once. But she has done four of those jobs at once. Depending on the day of the week or time of day, Heather can be found doing pretty much anything, and doing it well. She is multi-talented and multipassionate.
Here’s where the Slash Approach comes in. The Slash work model is a favorite among people that highly value freedom and flexibility in their career. For a while, Heather was a donor coordinator/dog walker/juice specialist/life coach. Sometimes she cuts out roles she grows tired of, but a slash almost always remains. Today she’s a taproom pourer/Episcopal campus minister.
This is a great work model for those multipotentialites with a lot of niche interests that don’t directly complement one another. Note: The Slash approach does require a fair amount of self-direction, independence, and organizational skills.
The Slashing/Side Hustling Multipod
Nick Loper loves the slash life. He loves it so much, in fact, that he helps other multipotentialites make a living with this approach.
Nick started out with a 9-to-5 corporate job. Deep down, he always knew he wanted more, so he began building a business on his nights and weekends. His first idea was to create a website that did price comparisons for online shoe sales. He began partnering with retail stores to serve thousands of consumers in their search for the best deal on shoes. Eventually, his business became financially sustainable, and he quit his traditional corporate job.
But Nick wouldn’t be satisfied by swapping his old 9-to-5 for running his shoe site full-time. He realized he loved switching gears throughout the week to keep himself energized and engaged in his work. Before long, Nick began more side hustles. He wrote and self-published an ebook, which he sold on Fiverr. Then he began offering 5-minute website reviews. As he waited on requests to flow in, he also developed a course on Udemy and launched his website, Side Hustle Nation.
Today, Nick claims to have active and passive income from FIFTEEN different revenue streams.
Here’s a list to prove it:
- YouTube Ads
- Credit Card Rewards
- Peer-to-Peer Lending
- Alternative Real Estate Investments
- Dividend Investing
- Merch (print on-demand business run by Nick and his wife)
- Clarity (one-on-one coaching at $4.17 per minute)
- Display Ads
- Self-publishing: Kindle
- Self-publishing: Paperback
- Self-publishing: Audiobooks
- Podcast Sponsorships
- Affiliate Marketing
With the slash approach, Nick’s career fulfillment and pocketbook are overflowing. He works within his signature strengths instead of forcing himself to follow a traditional career path.
The Einstein Approach
Albert Einstein is famous for his scientific theories, but his day job was actually reviewing patent applications for the government. Einstein enjoyed his job, and it left him with plenty of energy and brain space to develop scientific ideas after work (or sometimes during work when he completed tasks early). Einstein’s “good enough” job paid the bills, and he still spent time doing what he loved.
The Einstein approach is defined as having a full-time job or business that fully supports you financially, is mentally-simulating rather than mentally-exhausting, one that you thoroughly enjoy, and still leaves you with the time and energy to pursue your other passions on the side.
Many multipotentialites following the Einstein approach do two kinds of work that utilize different parts of their brain because it allows them to have the energy to work outside of their day jobs.
A Modern-day Multipotential Einstein
Matt felt stuck.
In his first few jobs out of college, he ended every day drained. First, his job in logistics for farmer’s markets led to burnout. When he read the book Four Hour Work Week, he felt his problems were solved. He decided to launch an online business, and for the next three years, his business struggled. He realized he’d never even asked himself if he wanted to run an online business. Throughout this time, he also started a baking business but didn’t see much room for growth. After feeling like a failure at the online business and bakery, Matt tried landscaping, but he still felt drained. No matter what he tried, Matt seemed to hit a wall in his career.
Around this same time, Matt was training to be a yoga instructor, but he hadn’t thought much about turning it into a career. He says the only thing that kept him sane throughout his failing businesses was his commitment to this practice. Yoga helped with introspection, and when he recognized he needed a major mindshift for his life, Matt made a 500-mile pilgrimage along the Camino de Santiago (and he wrote a book on it!). Shortly after his trip, he got married and recognized joy in all areas of his life but one: his career.
One day Matt heard himself telling some yoga students that they should feel tired but energized, and if that wasn’t the case, something needed to change about their form. Soon, Matt realized this is what he wanted from his career: tired and energized at the same time.
After enrolling in and completing Career Change Bootcamp, Matt started imagining a career that aligned with his unique wiring. What if he built a career on what he loved already instead of trying to force an interest in a different field?
Yoga seemed to be the answer. Over the years he hadn’t seen many men in classes, but his male friends would often ask him to teach them yoga. This gave Matt an idea for a unique offering: all-male yoga classes. He fought through his fear and apprehension and promoted the class. When the first day arrived, 15 men showed up.
Before long, Matt had a thriving yoga business. And because yoga continues to energize him, Matt and his wife decided to start a bakery on the side. Instead of pouring ALL his energy into the bakery and ending up drained, he pulls his energy from yoga and enjoys his time baking. His wife is able to handle the parts of the job that caused past burnout, and both businesses are thriving.
The Phoenix Approach
If you are the type of multipotentialite that wants to dive all in to one interest at a time, you may benefit from the Phoenix Approach. These people are more sequential in balancing interests instead of doing a thousand things at once.
This may look like working in a single industry for several months or years, then shifting gears to start a totally new career in a new field.
If you’re angling towards the Phoenix approach and you’re ready to make your switch, an easy way to transition to another full-fledged career is to start to build something on the side because it will allow you to continue to grow it, so you will enjoy a smooth transition when you’re ready to move onto the next career.
A Multipod’s Consistent Rise from Ashes
Meet Jody Mayberry. Today, Jody runs a marketing business and hosts a podcast show, but if you look at his resume, you’ll see a long list of seemingly disconnected careers.
When Jody graduated college, he felt a need for adventure, so he packed his bags and moved from the plains of Illinois to the mountainous Pacific Northwest. Once there, he began his role as a financial analyst for a commercial bank. It felt right. He loved monitoring the impact of interest risk, and he knew he was in the place he was meant to be.
But a few years in, Jody felt himself growing restless. He wanted a change, and quenching his need for adventure wouldn’t be as simple as getting a promotion or switching commercial banks. Jody had a new dream: Park Ranger.
Allured by the wilderness, Jody threw himself into all things outdoors. On top of his role as a park ranger, he became a bike patrol instructor for International Police Mountain Bike Association. During this time, Jody learned business skills he would go on to use in later roles; park management provides experience in public relations, public speaking, promotion, negotiation, human resources, and customer experience.
A few years after serving as a park ranger, Jody felt his interest leading him elsewhere. He decided to accept a role as Marketing Director for a family-owned business while pursuing his MBA. Here, he enjoyed the education in the classroom and the business world, as he realized that many of the strengths he’d developed in the park, like customer experience, were applicable in the traditional office space.
After completing his MBA, Jody felt drawn to the wilderness of entrepreneurship. He ditched his Marketing Director role for CEO of his own company, and he began helping outside companies create memorable customer experiences. At the same time, he dove headfirst into podcasting, launching a show on leadership development in parks and rec.
Today, Jody runs his marketing business and partners with various podcasters. He cohosts the Creating Disney Magic podcast with a former Executive Vice President from Walt Disney World Operations.
Jody’s career looks more like wild ups and downs on Space Mountain than a smooth ride on the People Mover, and that’s how he likes it. He’s used the Phoenix Approach to quench his multipotentiality over and over, and you can, too.
This multipotentialite story is another example of how building careers that fit your unique wiring (aka your signature strengths) leads to career happiness.
The Multipotentialite Transition:
Living Out Your Strengths
Now that you understand the basics of multipotentiality and the four approaches for making the salary you want without limiting yourself to one linear occupation, you are probably wondering how to make the transition from your current role to your multipod life. Here are seven ways to create a smooth transition:
- Reach out to your current network connections to find people doing what you want to do.
- Expand your network by attending events and setting up meetings with potential companies or coworkers.
- Volunteer in a job or industry to gain experience and test your interest.
- Offer to do “free work” that solves a problem for an organization. Knock the work out of the park and then pitch the job as a paid gig in the firm.
- Ask to job shadow companies or roles that interest you.
- Get training through online courses, school, or on-the-job apprenticeships.
- Emphasize your transferable skills in every job you pursue. Your career experience, no matter the industry, is valuable. Frame your transferable skills and strengths to benefit any organization that you plan on contacting.
You might be a multipotentialite if…
Lastly, if you are still wondering whether or not you are a multipotentialite, here’s how you can confirm it:
- Do you struggle to narrow your interests or choose a niche?
- Have high school counselors, college advisors, and professional mentors felt the need to tell you to stop acting as a jack-of-all-trades?
- Does it feel suffocating to commit to one specific role or industry for the rest of your life?
If you answered yes to any or all of those questions, you probably fit our definition for a multipotentialite.
As a part of this unique group of multi-talented and multi-passionate people, you likely feel:
- frustrated with identifying your calling
- confused about culture’s pressure to find just one career direction
- unfulfilled when you limit options to do any one thing
- you don’t fit the status quo, but you can’t figure out why
Welcome to the club, friend. We can’t wait to help you find career happiness by working within your unique wiring.
“Embrace your many passions. Follow your curiosity down those rabbit holes. Explore your intersections.” – Emilie Wapnick
If this guide helps you make a career transition, we want to hear about it! Send your story to email@example.com.
Transcript from Episode
Scott: If you've listened to the Happen To Your Career podcast for a while, you might have heard the term multipotentialite which by the way just means somebody who is multi passionate or not happy and just specializing in one thing for the rest of their life. Now the person who's done the most to popularize this term is my friend Emilie Wapnick. And she's been on the show a few times, most recently in Episode 220. And by the way, if you haven't heard it, and you feel like you have many interests in the world, go back and take a listen to: happentoyourcareer.com/220. But anyhow, a while back, I was clicking through my email and saw an article from Emilie and I try to keep tabs on her work and I happened to something happened to catch my attention. I clicked through and I began reading this article and it was about multipotentialites, but in particular, it was relating multipotentialites and where they have a tendency to fall on different assessments like strengthfinder or MBTI or other assessments. At that point I, my attention was captured. And as I continued to read through, I realized: “Hey this was obviously wasn't written by Emilie’s. It’s written by somebody else” and then click through, started learning about this other person and realized we had to have her on the podcast. So my guest today is Melanie Buford. She is a writer and assistant professor of career education. She teaches Career Education courses at the University of Cincinnati. She has spent a lot of time with different types of assessments like MBTI. She's also a writer on the side identifies as a multipotentialite, both fiction nonfiction, she's developing a fantasy series. She has a lot going on, but I am super excited to welcome her to the Happen To Your Career podcast. Welcome to the show, Melanie really excited to have you on.
Melanie: Thanks. I'm happy to be here.
Scott: So, I mentioned all of the all of the studies and all of the work that you have begun doing in terms of quantifying where multipotentialites have a tendency to fall on some of these different assessments. And that is absolutely amazing. I'm fascinated by that. And we're gonna talk about that. But I'm curious, before we get into that, you were telling me a little bit before we click the record button, how do you describe to people what it is that you do now?
Melanie: Yeah. As I said, yeah, it's a tough question. It's a fun question for multipotentialites everywhere to try to answer. So, my full-time job, I am a, Assistant Professor of career education at University of Cincinnati. And what's cool about that part of my job is that I about 80% of my time is spent teaching in the classroom. So I get to work with several hundred students a year doing all the fun career development stuff that I like. The other 20% of my job, I am allowed to do service so sit on committees as you see. And then I also do kind of just because of my own interest, a little bit of research and writing. And so that's where this article came about. And then just because that's not quite enough, I also then do write fiction on the side. So I do a little bit of poetry. And I'm working on a full length fantasy novel, as you mentioned, which is quite a fun piece.
Scott: So I love how you say, because that wasn't quite enough. So, it sounds like there's layers to that almost a little bit of jest, but also a little bit of seriousness. So what's buried beneath that comment? I'm curious.
Melanie: Have you say a little bit of jest a little bit of coffee? Beneath that comments? Oh, yeah, I mean, I have a very classic multipotentialite story in a sense that I just spent a lot of years wandering and was really in a very sort of INFJ, we could talk more about that later but kind of perfectionist need for this authentic, perfect career that fully captures myself. Ended up not only going down the path of education and sort of, climbing the ranks there, but feeling like I just wanted a more pure creative expression piece on the side. It was a lot of work. It took several years to kind of actualize those pieces. But now, the benefit is that I have both a full time job and then can also do the creative stuff. So, I feel that one or the other alone just doesn't quite satisfy me and giving me all the admittedly, many things that I want, some chat challenged and creativity, some ability to support myself financially, all those good things. So it’s a very multipotential kind of story.
Scott: So, we've already used the word multipotentialite a few times here, but I'm curious what, and Emilie has her own definition, but I'm curious what that means for you.
Melanie: I think Emilie's definition is awesome, I think Emilie's awesome. But I would say, for me in kind of my experience, I think there is a kind of sort of someone with multiple talents. And certainly someone with multiple interests who really wants to find a way. I guess there's sort of an action intention piece for me but somebody wants to find a way to express their kind of multifaceted identity through their work in different ways. And so, they may have multiple skills, often they have multiple skills, but I think it's trying to find a way to actualize all those different things that they have going on and passions and talents that they have. So that would be my definition.
Scott: I love that definition. And I can absolutely identify with that too, especially the actualize piece, the actualizing all of those different talents, passions, etc. I, myself have a tendency to take on lots of different activities, just because as you said, sometimes it feels like, one thing may not be enough for all the reasons that you described and more. Here’s what I'm curious about though, long before you had the word multipotentialite to identify with. And I'm curious, what, where did you start noticing that tendency in your career? How far back was that?
Melanie: Yeah, it's an interesting question. I will say before I discovered Emilie's work specifically, I sort of had this loose sense of like, a renaissance person. I know, she cites that sometimes. And so I knew that there was this type of thing that some people can have multifaceted careers. I remember just before I discovered her being interested in sort of the classical scientist artists combo, like Da Vinci, for example. But anyway, yeah, I mean, it's almost hard to pinpoint that. I went to high school and I remember in high school, I was kind of the math-tech person.
Scott:The math to explain. I love that.
Melanie: Right? It seems strange to me now. But I remember I was in like, I took a college level pre engineering course in high school, I kind of thought I might go down the engineering path, I always did well in math and was kind of the just like a leadership role in math, I would often kind of help other folks in math class and I love theory and I remember algebra, it was very difficult for me, but by the time I mastered it, I sort of really enjoyed mastering it again and being really embedded in that space. So I thought of myself as more of a technical person, although I knew I hated hard sciences that much. But, I had actually, applied it several colleges and ended up torn between two pretty different programs, which I think kind of captures how diverse my interest were. But I got into at Carnegie Mellon And I remember thinking about, there's a program there that was sort of cutting edge, I think at the time in artificial intelligence. And they had, there were some science requirements. And they were really, it was kind of a blend of a nice sort of tech program and humanities program. And looking at both the sort of technical side of AI and also the sort of human side of AI and the ethical pieces and all that I remember was pretty cool to look at the time. And then I ended up choosing between that and Wesleyan University, which is a totally liberal arts college in Middletown, Connecticut. And their programs, they did not have engineering, I remember and they didn't have a lot of necessarily tech focused pieces, but they were much more embedded in like, English and psychology and kind of the Humanities, Political Science. And so, I remember kind of being at that crossroads and thinking am I more of a tech person or am I more of a humanities person? And I felt that the I had explored the tech side a little bit more, I was really into gadgets and computers and was always kind of fixing things, and tooling around with things. I didn't feel that I had explored the psychological emotional kind of part as much. And I was just at the moment drawn to the culture of Wesley, which was very open and into kind of being who you are. And it was very creative. And so I ultimately decided to go with Wesleyan, I remember feeling that was probably the first time I remember feeling like I had to choose, to really prioritize one side of myself. And I remember feeling like I, that choice was hard. I was a little bit of both. So I would say that's the earliest that I can remember on that.
Scott: That’s so interesting. I didn't really realize, in that particular way until I'm listening to your story and realizing I felt that same tug, if you will, to have to choose in one way or another. I was very much the person who, I ended up enrolling in a school what I thought I was going to go into, which was, computer science at the time, was not a terribly great fit for me. I actually loved some aspects of it, but I ended up switching majors. I don't know, 7/8/9 times someplace in there. And for me, it was very much that exact same feeling like I have to choose. But I don't know, necessarily if I want to choose cause there's these different sides of myself. And in retrospect, that I ended up taking, five years where a lot of people complete their undergrad in four years. And I think that was a great thing for me in retrospect, and I got a lot of experiences that I wouldn't have had if I had just gone down the traditional college path. But yeah, I didn't realize that until now.
Melanie: I just say that…
Scott: Go for it.
Melanie: I was just gonna say that, in working with undergraduates, which I now do, one of the things that I noticed that I work with a ton of students who are torn between majors for exactly the reason that you just articulated, right, they feel like, this captures one part of them. And this captures one part of them, they have a hard time finding kind of the perfection in one major. And I just, I can't help but feel like there's a perhaps a sense that increasingly students expect to capture all of themselves, with their major and career. And I feel like that's an increasing expectation. And that's part of what's creating, in my view, like an increasing struggle with this system that often encourage you to turn to choose one program. So anyway, I think that, when I think of all the way my parents described that choice, they were like: well, of course it didn't capture my entire self. I didn't expect it too but that was not my experience.
Scott: That’s so interesting. The system… most of the system is not necessarily set up that way. And it is designed in some ways to choose. So it does feel when you're embedded in it or anywhere near it, that it's sort of setup for failure if you go in with that expectation that is going to capture all of those parts of you in one way or another. So that’s, I don't know, that's interesting. I hadn't thought about it in that way. I appreciate that. So here's my question to you then, as you went through all that, and begin to recognize that there were these different parts of yourself, almost had different sides of yourself, but it feels like it's not really sides. It's all part of you, but different pieces, different interests, different talents, passions, etc. to be nurtured. Where along the lines did you decide that the route that you are on currently was right for you at the given time?
Melanie: It was not simple
Melanie: Yeah, I mean, as complicated as my interest felt, I think that's how complicated a process it was for me to really get to a place where I feel like they're captured.
Melanie: I spent, it’s a long story, I'll make it kind of the distilled version but it was years it was many years. So, I've been in my career full time about 10 years now. Post college and for the first four years solidly four years, if not kind of five there, were spends what could best be described, I think is just wandering. I mean, I graduated Wesleyan. And I remember in sort of each phase when I was choosing where to go, I ended up moving and changing jobs a number of times. I remember in each phase, there was sort of one thing I thought I knew about what I wanted. But it was only one thing. And it was usually a rather abstract thing, right. But I remember when I graduated from college, I actually ended up moving out to San Francisco. And joining AmeriCorps. I did a program called Public Allies, which felt like it captured a lot of my passions in the sense that it was a leadership program. It was somewhat social justice oriented. There were a lot of different interesting people in the program. So I had a lot of new relationships that I was building with really interesting, passionate, multifaceted people. And I was simultaneously placed with a nonprofit. And so that was also one of those sort of combination jobs. I was in the community and Public Allies on Fridays and then working at the nonprofit four days a week. And so I felt like that was beginning to capture it. I knew at that time that I had a kind of passion for education. But I felt like it may not necessarily be K through 12 education. I felt like it might actually be adult education. And I wasn't sure what that would look like.
Scott: And some of the indicators for you, you said, I feel like at the time, it may be adult education versus, K through 12 education. But what were some of those indicators for you that you were starting to feel that way? Just curious.
Melanie: Yeah. Sure. Yeah. Well, so I had in high school, I had taken a job at I was a museum dosa. And I remember feeling this is like totally, one of those just instinct, instinctual feelings. But I remember I would deliver, presentations and I would lead tours. And while I absolutely hated public speaking, I remember feeling like in those moments when I was sort of sharing information and helping people see things in a new way. I remember feeling a little bit of that sense of flow like the sense that this is right. This feels like something that I'm good at and I enjoy and time with kind of pass quickly, right. And so that was all I really had to know what I had very little work experience other than a sort of view camp counselor docent, like jobs. And I remember feeling like explaining things and helping people understand history is somewhat fulfilling for me. And so that in my, I studied abroad in Denmark during college and really enjoyed thinking about identity and psychology and how those things influence people's happiness and well-being. Those are really that was all I had to go on. And so I just remember I was actually sitting in an interview for Public Allies for that AmeriCorps program. And they that it was a committee interview, there were like four people, including the director lined up in front of me and they were asking me all these questions about what are your passions that I remember feeling a little defensive because I just didn't know. I felt like I didn't know I wasn't very specific. A lot of the other folks in the program had these very specific causes social justice causes that they were really embedded in, in college. And I had been sort of general in the sense that I disliked studying identity in general, but didn't have this specific cause yet.
Scott: So they’re all like: “I'm passionate about saving kittens from war torn areas.” And you're like “I’m not sure yet.”
Melanie: Right, exactly. I mean, it was just it was almost kind of comical that I came, “Hi, guys.” And then, we got along great. I felt like these are my people. And yet, I don't kind of have this cause yet. And so I remember literally in the interview, I just remember they were like, so, what do you think you want to do? And there was like, an awkward pause. And I just, this just came out. I didn't even think about an advance but I just said, “I think maybe education?” Because-
Scott: High up, no question mark at the end.
Melanie: Right, exactly. I tried to make it sound professional. I was wearing a suit, of course, yeah, just came out like education. And they kind of looked at me. And they're like, I remember I literally remember they looked at me and they wrote it down. And they said, “Okay! Like that's a valid thing?” And I was like, “Well, I think it's a valid thing. I could think it's a valid thing.” And so I just kind of went from there.
Scott: That’s… I'm fascinated by how, and this is not at all what I anticipated talking to you about today. However, I'm just absolutely fascinated by how identity shifts through small interactions that add up to massive different ways that we think about. So like that, you went through that experience, and you got some measure of validation in some way where they're like, that seems normal and then you start to think about: Hey, I could, that's that seems like a, it seems like a good answer. And you start with like one other little pebble in filling up the glass if you will have pebbles that move you towards thinking about yourself in a different way. And I'm just fascinated by how that actually happens because it happens through so many little pieces. I don't know. So that’s really interesting. So what are some of the other maybe bigger pebbles that happened on the way that led you up to where you're at now?
Melanie: Yeah. Well, I feel like most of them were those small pebbles, sort of a slow accumulations small things. But I remember that was one turning point. So I knew education in some way. And then when I graduated from that program, about a year later, I remember thinking, I think I want to go to graduate school. And I looked at a number of programs in psychology because I really was starting to like I consistently love psychology. But I also, because of that sort of educational piece and I had been placed with an educational nonprofit, I ended up applying to Harvard Graduate School of Education. Ended up going there after another year of doing kind of random nonprofit stuff. So I remember that educational piece really built because I consistently was interested in it. But again, I was placed with educational nonprofit that served college age, or traditional college age young adults 18 to 24. And again, I looked at some programs in K through 12. And people encouraged me to look at programs that served K through 12 education I just every time kind of just had this sensational feeling like, “No, I don't think kids are where I want to be so…” So, I kind of built on that. And then it was really like in graduate school in a program, a one year Master's in education, where I was encountering a lot of people who are passionate about: okay for that, that was their driver. Again, I sort of had this feeling like all these people are so clear on what they want to do. And I remember having one friend who was interested in adult education like I was and kind of had really similar interest in and she sort of, again to your point kind of helped me crystallize it validate the fact that, you know, this is again, a legitimate thing, adult education, though the pathway is not necessarily as clear, at least from my understanding now can be a great way to apply some of these interests. And so I took a class in that program called adult development and it just blew my mind like it was one of the most fascinating classes I've ever taken. And that is when I started thinking higher education was where I want to be.
Scott: Very cool. So now, years later, then, what caused you to want to- shifting back to multipotentialite here. What caused you to begin to want to quantify some of these pieces around? Where do multipotentialites fall on assessments? Yeah, you’re obviously familiar with MBTI (Myers Briggs Type Indicator), if you haven't heard that before you said that you're in INFJ, if I heard you right, and for those people who don't know what that is, what does that mean?
Melanie: That's a big question. So, somehow feels like the biggest question.INFJ is one of the 16 Myers Briggs types.The types are sort of subtle, the differences are quite subtle and having 16 types actually gives it a lot of complexity, which is one of the reasons I like this particular instrument.The INFJ is (this is just my words, these are my words). But I would say that INFJ is typically are somewhat idealistic in the sense that they really are interested in self-expression, and authenticity, in sort of they tend to be drawn to social causes, and they tend to have a bitof a creative side. And yet they are introverted and often are interested in kind of sometimes reflecting on things deeply, and not necessarily taking action on them right away. But that they have this, I would perceive as often perfectionist and drive to kind of find something that is a match for their identity and kind of continually refine their own sense of identity. But again, it's one of many Myers Briggs types and a lot of information even in those four letters.
Scott: Very cool. I appreciate you explaining what that means. So then, what took place where you're like, “hey, multipotentialite. I think I'm going to utilize my class to figure out where multipotentialites fall on all of these different types of assessments” like: MBTI, which we covered, like strengthsfinder, which many of our listeners have heard me mentioned on the podcast from time to time. And how did this happen, Melanie?
Melanie: Yeah. It was totally serendipitous that it happened. But I'm certified in Myers Briggs and certified and strong interest inventory. And I've been using both of those assessments for quite a number of years. I'm also partially certified in Clifton strengths, our strength finder, it has so many names, they keep changing. And so I had been using those assessments with students for years. And then I was asked to teach a new course or to kind of adapt a course that we had to fit a population of initially 227 undecided students, undecided first year students, primarily undecided first year students. And so, in designing the class, that's where I sort of put a number of elements that I disliked, including assessment, we put the Myers Briggs in there. As we actually put strong in there, we have them see, look at Emilie's book and a number of others. And so, I was teaching this class and they asked me to gather some data about the class to kind of demonstrate that it was helping students get clarity. So, as part of that asked, I decided to go ahead and run a pre and post survey, and just do a number of assessments on those students. And it was, I just kind of thought one day in kind of chatting with one of my co-workers, what if we ask? What if we go ahead and gather that data from at least a small sub sample of about 100 students? Do you identify as a multipotentialite, what kind of career approach appeals to you? What were your Myers Briggs results? What were your Clifton strengths? And what is your intended career path? And so I gathered all that data into an Excel sheet and I have a strange passion for Excel. And so I created all these columns, and they were all colorful, and just sitting in the library one day just kind of playing with this data, and I started seeing that there was some really powerful correlations between these results. And that's when I ended up connecting with Emilie's work in reaching out and saying, “Hey, I have this data. Are you interested in me writing a piece that kind of ties together these different concepts and can maybe tell us a little bit about multi-potential reality?” It was not intended to be a super intense, rigorous, study by any means, but I just did data was kind of calling to me to share it in some fashion. And so, that's how I came about.
Scott: So out of the sample that you have so far, what were some of the pieces that you learned? What were some of the things that popped out, as you said, that were some of the correlations?
Melanie: So yeah. There were number of kind of patterns that came out. One of the big ones, so with Myers Briggs, there's a guy named Keirsey divided the Myers Briggs types into a couple of different, four different categories.
Melanie: And one of those categories he called: The Idealist. These are folks who have both an N and an F, so, intuitive and feeling in their Myers Briggs type. There are four types that have that N and F right in the middle of their type. And he said a number of things about those, those folks, including that they tend to value self-expression and they tend to be drawn to creativity and they tend to want to really find an authentic career and kind of do tend to be, help kind of her folks and interested in helping people develop their potential, all of those great things. And so, one of the big findings here was that are, one of the pieces that I discovered in this work with, called that was that there was a pretty high correlation just the data that I looked at, as just kind of small-ish sample, although we did have quite a few folks. I think I had 74 multipotentialite students that I use here. So, not tiny but small. And I looked at, what’s a correlation between Myers Briggs type and multipotentialite reality? And it was super clear that in this population of students there were a lot of the students who identified with multipotential reality we're in fact these NF idealist types. So whole 23% of those students were the ENFP type. And for those who don’t know what that is, right? It's Extroverted, Intuitive, Feeling, Perceiving types. They tend to be drawn often to careers like motivating and developing talent, sometimes motivational speaking, teaching counseling being kind of out there helping people reach their potential. And so that again, whole 23% and then another 28% of the multipotentialite students were either INFJ’s or INFP’s. And so, all three of those types following that idealist category, and they collectively made up a huge percentage. More than half is about half of the population. So I thought that pretty significant, and people seem to be quite interested in that.
Scott: Wow, that's really interesting. What did you find in terms of Clifton strengths or strengths finder?
Melanie: Yeah. So yeah, Clifton strengths is super interesting instrument of course, and it has their 34 possible ranks that you can get on that test. And you get your top five in order of strength in your results. And so I asked students to share all five of their strengths all the 100 and something most students and I looked at the 74 that were multipotentialites. The big finding there was that the two most popular strengths that appeared in a ton of students results were one called: “Restorative.” It is essentially a problem solving strength. So, people who are energized by figuring out how things work and kind of bringing life back into dysfunctional systems. And so, that talent for problem solving appeared in 43% of students results which is like a huge number right of for one strength out of 34. And then it right, yeah, it was kind of mind blowing. The second strength that was almost as common was, “adaptability.” And again, that's kind of what it sounds like, but taking things as they come responding to the demands of the moment. And that appeared in 42% of students strengths, so against super high numbers and significantly higher than the general population than they appear in the general population. And if you think about how Emilie defines, kind of multipotentialite superpowers, those sound right to say, talents for adapting and kind of interdisciplinary problem solving.
Scott: Where there any that were- I'm curious whether you ended up cutting the data this way, too, but were there any that we're just not represented across the board?
Melanie: Yeah, that's an interesting question. So the one that really stood out was a strength called “focus” this is probably like sounding funny to you, it sounds funny to me.
Scott: Yeah. If you haven't listened to that episode 220 with Emilie, go back, listen to it, then re listen to this part. It'll make a ton of sense.
Melanie: Exactly. And yeah, focus was very, not commonly occurring let's just say, in the sample it was about 1% of the multi students habit. And that is, I did actually look at college students in general. And in general, about 8% of college students have that strength that it appears and about 8% of users. So that's obviously much less, it's much more rare in multipotentialite students. And I think it kind of makes sense if you think about adaptability. I think adaptability and focus are often kind of at odds with each other. Right. So yeah, that was a pretty significant finding there.
Scott: That's interesting. So if HTYC’s are listening to this right now, and they have felt there especially susceptible to shiny things syndrome, then potentially it may not be because of anything else other than, maybe you fall into the multipotentialite category and focus is not one of your strengths necessarily. That's really interesting. I appreciate you sharing. What, where there any other what you would consider to be really surprising findings out of it?
Melanie: I think just the fact that this population, multipotentialites, students, I'm kind of, in a way looked like. So I kind of see it in this way. I looked at Clifton strengths and users in general. And then I looked at Clifton strengths users and in the frequency of strengths in the copy of the book of college age population, so they do actually break it out. You can even get data on both of those. And then I looked at my class. And it was just very interesting to compare across those three. One of the conclusions that I had was that college students look more like multipotentialites, according at least to this survey than Clifton strengths users in general. And it's an international assessment and it's assessing adults, kind of across the world. And one of the things that this is a bit of a leap, one of the things that says to me is that people, at least this in this college, a sample, college students are looking more and more like multipotentialite. As I got one of the things that I went ahead and jumped for potentially that conclusion that, I think college students in general, are increasingly this kind of goes back to our earlier conversation, but are increasingly expecting and kind of wanting this flexibility and the ability to continuously learn and the ability to solve problems, perhaps using multiple disciplines and they're demonstrating this ability to adapt, they are less likely to have focus than general adult population. And if you think about technology, that kind of makes sense, right? I think the different modes of the ways that we work, in the ways that we learn, the ways that even high school students are interacting with the world, and the access to knowledge that we have, I think, sort of supports this idea of multipotential reality. And I think people are increasingly hungry for work that majors and work that expresses all of the different parts of themselves, and not just being asked to really narrow and focus just to kind of be cute with it. Focus on one thing, they want to express themselves in a number of ways. And so I think this data is good news, potentially, and I'd love to see it expanded. But this is good news for multipotentialite everywhere that I think our schools and hopefully workplaces are beginning to evolve to kind of fit more of this type of person.
Scott: So we've definitely found that strengths no matter what your definition of strengths. Have a tendency to be a combination of nature and nurture. And what I think I'm hearing you say, or at least the hypothesis I'm hearing you make is that, there's a definite seeable impact or it appears as though there is a definite seeable impact on- from our environment, on the development of what strengths rise to the top, if you will, and that's interesting. So then, what do you think that that means? What do you think are either the opportunities or dangerous that come from that?
Melanie: Yeah, that's a great question. And I love the way you just put that I think that actually sounds even more so simply than I did. Yeah, I think that the nurture is a piece. The strengths rather the challenges and the opportunities there, I think I’m learning, I think in terms of opportunities, I think we have the ability if we can shift, particularly our higher education systems, and me perhaps education in general. One, there's the opportunity to shift education so that it sort of acknowledges this need. And it learns, or it becomes able to allow people to continuously learn. So, the idea that you when you're young, however you define young, you get a few degrees, and then you're done with school, and then you jump into work and you work in this one way, long term, which we know is continuously kind of fading over time, that particular model. I think schools have the opportunity to adapt a little bit and be more responsive to this emerging need for flexibility. And the ability to learn in different areas, grow in different areas, solve problems in new ways. So I think that's an opportunity. I think that we have a lot of big problems in the world. I think getting increasingly global complex, world really needs. And maybe this is serendipity, I don't know. But I think the world really needs perhaps the- it's like chicken or the egg thing there. But, I think the world needs multi-disciplinary flexible thinkers, to help us grapple with these complex problems, right? Problems with technology, problems of access, problems of equity, problems of science, and where are the boundaries of ethical science, all of these big problems, I think are increasing as technology allows for us to become so connected. And so I think there's a big need for multipotentialite, like abilities that I think I think those abilities are increasingly being called for. And I think it's maybe not a coincidence that folks are increasingly showing an aptitude for that. So I think that's a big opportunity. I would say that the challenge then is that a lot of our systems, especially our big institutions, at least, I would say, in the US and perhaps in other places are really not set up or not necessarily set up to support that kind of grow. And it right, I mean, you see some nonprofit organizations, social enterprises, some higher head organizations are beginning to shift to create interdisciplinary programs and study and global leadership programs and social change programs and they're starting to kind of get their degrees, are becoming, going online and becoming more flexible. So you see it happening. But I think that some of our big, these big ships like K through 12 education are really hard to turn their huge they've been going for a long time. So I think that will be our challenge is how do we adapt institutions to really fit this demand for having a holistic, authentic, career that encompasses all we are.
Scott: We're experiencing that right we're living at that right now. My wife Alyssa is a teacher and or has been a teacher. She stopped teaching to be at home and then helped start this business and everything about eight years ago but recently she's gone back to doing a little bit of subbing for friends and things along those lines. And at the same time, our kids are in deep into the K through 12 education system re my youngest at oldest at almost 12. And this is a daily conversation in our household about where it is falling short for lack of a better phrase, and not helping kids harness these strengths that they have. And on top of that, so you mentioned focus, there's definitely- I see it within my kids a complete difference and in focus ability based on being product of their environment and they're surrounded by a multipotentialite household on top of it. And it's not the, education system is not set up to be able to work with that. And since it's not set up to work with that it has a tendency to work against that, which is unfortunate. So, yes, we are we are living that and hope to be able to make a change in that area too. So, very interested in that and glad that you brought that up here. Here's something else I'm curious about though. As you think about those, if you think about some of the things that you learned in your own perspective on this, I'm curious if you believe that there's any type of connection with what you've seen and differences in risk tolerance for especially the college age or near college age population. Is that something that you have seen or is that something that you haven't experienced?
Melanie: Yeah, it's not gonna thought all about- come to think of it, I want to my instinctual answer “yes and no” I mean, yeah, complicated. Good question, I think that perhaps in some ways, I okay- so here's the “Yes” part of that. I think that, so for example, every time I start a class, and right now I'm teaching about 180 first year students-
Melanie: -In three different class sections. So, I go in and I look at this huge sea of people and I asked them to raise their hand and kind of tell me what they're feeling about things. I asked them things like, how many of you really are committed to having a career that you're passionate about? I specifically use that word passion and I see a ton of hand. In fact, every semester, it seems like there are more and more students who are saying, like, I am committed to finding the right career, like this is, I see that as a sign that they are willing to kind of do whatever it takes to get there. And I can kind of hear that passion and everybody says they talk about it. So in that way, I would imagine that as I think multipotentialite careers that really fit you require a certain amount of risk, a lot of the professions that give you a lot of different variety pieces and capture interest require you to put yourself out there, right. I think anything that is involves self-expression requires you to put yourself out there. And so I see in that way that they are willing to do that. It seems like increasingly willing to do that. So that's a yes, I think that yes, I get the feeling that they're willing to take those kinds of risks. When I get up in the classroom, and I tell them my career story, which is what I do at the beginning of every semester, they kind of say, I hear a lot of them say, you know, that really resonates with me. I tell them very explicitly, I've had to take a lot of risks. And I've had some successes, I've had a bunch of failures. And they kind of, they look very serious, and they not enter, like, all right, I can do it, I'm gonna try that. So, I see a willingness to engage with it and to really fully commit themselves to this process. At the same time, I sometimes feel that there is a, that this is human nature, but I feel like students have a real fear of failure. And I think part of that is actually paradoxically related to the fact that they are so passionate and it's like, when you really care about something, failure hurts so much more, right. And so I see that in, particularly in my multipotentialite students that they care so much that they're really willing to put themselves out there to try to find their calling or purpose or however they define it for multiple callings and multiple purposes. But that they, I feel for them because I think when it doesn't work out, or they feel what Emilie describes this that sense of kind of boredom with something that was a passion, or those sorts of failures and forms of rejection, perhaps from employers are from programs or whatever they're trying to do. I feel that they have personalized their career so much, that it often the failure hits harder. And so I think that creates a complicated answer to your question in a complicated relationship with taking these big risks.
Scott: We see the same thing too and we do see that it is and I thought you put it really well, paradoxically related, and I mean, we see the same thing not just in college students, but also be a people that are in there, nearing 30s or in their 30s or are even in their in their 40s too, we see some other distinct differences once in this is grossly over generalizing, but in the folks that we've worked with and interacted with you once up into 50s, 60s and 70s. But I think those are also products of environment as well, like we're talking about earlier. But I, it does seem to be related. And we have that conversation all the time with our students and clients and shoot, we have that conversation in our family at the dinner table at home here that hey, it wouldn't, it wouldn't feel like a big deal. If you didn't care about it, whatever it is, whatever went wrong, mistake was made, failure that happened, thing that occurred. It wouldn't be a big deal if you didn't care about it. So that's actually a good segue back. But that I think is a challenge in itself to now that we're placing so much more weight and both in the like college age generation, but also as a society on doing things that we care about, then that means that some ways we don't want to fail because we care about it.
Melanie: And I think that to your earlier point is an opportunity, right? That's the opportunity is to teach students, especially multipotentialite students, and in fact adults, how to respond in those situations. How do you deal with feelings of rejection, feeling lost, feeling uncertain, struggling, when it actually is personal? You're taking it personally, I think that our traditional this little- this is also a big generalization. But, that sort of way that we traditionally looked at career it wasn't necessarily supposed to be so personal. There are certain philosophies for sure, and it say that career doesn't necessarily have to be personal, it could be a way to pay the bills for a lot of people it is and that's something valid, but to the extent that we make it personal and we're trying to help people find their calling and find their purpose and find passion, which so many of us want. I think that how to manage that feeling when something personal goes down or gets rejected or doesn't seem to be working out is like, the most important skill you need to have in order to tolerate the risks because with risk, there's always failure, right?
Scott: Yeah. And you know that I think leads us to the ultimate irony, which we went through your story and you acknowledge that, you had to go and collect all those little pebbles along the way and all those learnings and validation and mistakes and everything else that happened along the way. And the funny thing, funny and also terrible from whichever advantage point you're looking at it on, is that most people in the world will not find that they're calling, find their meaningful work, find anything else that really matters to them Intel, they have gone through many of those other things and collected those pebbles along the way and had those mistakes and had those failures like one does not very regularly happen without the other. And, back to that paradoxical relationship, which is why is this stuff is so hard. So I so appreciate you calling that out. I so appreciate you taking the time and coming on the show and I so appreciate you doing some things that other people are not doing in the world and piecing together your own career in a way that's really good for you. So hats off to you. And I, thank you very much for making the time and taking the time.
Melanie: Yeah, I appreciate it. I'm glad folks around here and thinking about this stuff and continue to try to advance this work as much as we can because it is hard. So, thank you.
Scott: Where can people who are interested in finding more about Melanie, where can they track you down? Where can they find you? Where can they learn more about what you're doing?
Melanie: So I have a website, it's: MelanieBuford.com, folks can reach out to me there. And then I am also on Twitter, like any introverted person, I have a complex relationship with Twitter, but I do actually have a Twitter handle it's: @MelanieVBuford, that's “V” as in Victor, MelanieVBuford. So those would be probably the two best ways to get in touch.
Scott: Amazing. Well, thank you very much again. I really appreciate it, Melanie.
Melanie: Yeah, thanks so much, Scott.
Scott: And we are off. Really nice job. Thank you again.
Melanie: Thank you. Yeah, this was fun.
Scott: This was fun. How else can I-
Melanie: Interesting stuff.
Scott: Yeah, yes. Well, I'm a little biased, but I love it. It is interesting. And how else can I be helpful to you?
Melanie: Yeah, I think this has already been pretty helpful. I think I'm pretty good. The nice thing about having a full time job is it not actually have limited time for like connecting with folks sometimes.
Melanie: And so that's both a blessing and but also sometimes a challenge. But I think, yeah, I think it's my work continues to evolve. I'd love to kind of stay in touch and hear what you got going on. Really interesting stuff.
Scott: Absolutely. We- yes. And, thank you again for coming on and sharing your story. And-
Scott: Yeah, definitely. Feel free to reach out if there's any way that we can be of help. We have this podcast and we have actually five others as well. So, we've got a few things going on at this point. Hey, really good to meet you. And, I will talk to you later. Have an amazing rest of the day, rest of your Thursday, which is it turns out it's Thursday.
Melanie: Exactly. It's got real quick.
Melanie: And where can where will this be? Up?
Scott: Yes, absolutely. So I think that (let’s gonna see if I have the notes handy here.) I think we're about a month and a half out. I want to say I might be misremembering the release date on this. What will happen is, before it goes live, you'll get a note from Tamarah on my team, and Tamarah will send you what the upcoming links are going to be- and let's see it says release date. Oh, maybe we're not that far out 4/29/2018 is the date that I have in front of me.
Melanie: Oh, my gosh, what are coming out that day to?
Scott: The world is going to hit for you on that, yeah, good day. Okay, awesome. We'll keep you posted. And then like I said, you'll get a couple of emails from Tamarah along the way too and you can feel free to share with whoever you see fit.
Melanie: Okay, sounds good. I appreciate it, Scott.
Scott: Absolutely, amazing to meet you. Have a great one Melanie.
Melanie: Yeah, you too.
Melanie: Have a good one.