What Brene Brown and the Art of Charm Have In Common

Scott Barlow: Welcome back to Happen to Your Career. I am ridiculously excited to be here with our guest today. He has a very interesting story with a couple twists and turns for how he got to where he is now. His expertise relates to what you are all interested in. We will dive into that. AJ Harbinger welcome to the show.

AJ Harbinger: Thanks for having me.

Scott Barlow: How do you tell people what you do?

AJ Harbinger: I'm a social skills coach for top performers. I work with people who struggle with social anxiety and introversion and give them the tools that extroverts use to get ahead in their career.

Scott Barlow: That is perfect and a reason we are interested in talking to you today. Where did that start for you? Your career didn't start anywhere close to that right?

AJ Harbinger: That is fair to say. Growing up I wanted to be a doctor. My dad was a single parent and a blue collar guy putting a lot of emphasis on education. The idea of his son becoming a doctor was pleasing to him. That was my track in high school and college. When I got into college I decided to strengthen my medical school application and get a job in a hospital. I got my first medical job in the emergency room. And I hated it. The quality of life for most people in the medical profession, especially in the emergency room, was pretty poor. I worked with a lot of doctors that were tried to their pager and didn't have time to spend with their family or travel and they had a large amount of debt. Up until this time I had family friends that were doctors, my aunt was a nurse. I had the sunny rosier picture of modern medicine and this was my first real experience where it was unfiltered. I didn't like the clinic setting and the pressures of being profitable as a medical professional. I told my dad I wasn't sure about medical school and wanted to travel a bit after graduation. It frustrated him because I had put all this time, energy, and effort into science and he thought I needed to go to medical school next. He told me what any responsible parent would tell their child looking to travel, get a job, I'm not paying for you to travel. Put this education to work.

I​ ​got​ ​my​ ​first​ ​real​ ​job​ ​out​ ​of​ ​college​ ​at​ ​a​ ​laboratory​ ​doing​ ​research​ ​on head/neck​ ​cancers.​ ​My​ ​boss​ ​was​ ​a​ ​surgeon​ ​who​ ​removed​ ​tumors​ ​from patients.​ ​I​ ​took​ ​a​ ​small​ ​piece​ ​and​ ​did​ ​experiments​ ​on​ ​the​ ​tumors​ ​using animal​ ​models​ ​to​ ​try​ ​and​ ​isolate​ ​a​ ​population​ ​of​ ​cancer​ ​stem​ ​cells,​ ​a​ ​popular theory​ ​in​ ​cancer​ ​about​ ​10​ ​years​ ​ago.​ ​After​ ​working​ ​on​ ​this​ ​for​ ​a​ ​year​ ​we were​ ​ready​ ​to​ ​publish.​ ​I​ ​was​ ​excited​ ​to​ ​prove​ ​to​ ​my​ ​dad​ ​I​ ​had​ ​started​ ​this biology​ ​career​ ​and​ ​it​ ​was​ ​going​ ​somewhere.​ ​Unfortunately​ ​Stanford​ ​scooped us.​ ​A​ ​laboratory​ ​in​ ​Stanford​ ​was​ ​ready​ ​to​ ​publish​ ​the​ ​same​ ​results.​ ​Medicine doesn’t​ ​care​ ​about​ ​the​ ​second​ ​person​ ​on​ ​the​ ​moon​ ​just​ ​the​ ​person​ ​who discovered​ ​the​ ​event.​ ​My​ ​boss​ ​was​ ​freaking​ ​out​ ​because​ ​he​ ​needed​ ​the paper​ ​to​ ​be​ ​tenured.​ ​He​ ​made​ ​a​ ​deal​ ​with​ ​Stanford​ ​to​ ​combine​ ​results​ ​and
publish​ ​together.​ ​I​ ​received​ ​zero​ ​credit​ ​for​ ​my​ ​work.​ ​I​ ​went​ ​from​ ​first​ ​author on​ ​the​ ​paper​ ​to​ ​third​ ​author​ ​and​ ​Stanford​ ​and​ ​my​ ​boss​ ​receiving​ ​majority​ ​of the​ ​credit.​ ​I​ ​was​ ​pretty​ ​disappointed.

Growing​ ​up​ ​I​ ​just​ ​had​ ​to​ ​work​ ​harder​ ​than​ ​everyone​ ​else​ ​and​ ​I​ ​would succeed.​ ​I​ ​never​ ​thought​ ​about​ ​social​ ​skills​ ​being​ ​important​ ​to​ ​your​ ​success. My​ ​dad​ ​was​ ​focused​ ​on​ ​education.​ ​My​ ​boss​ ​could​ ​tell​ ​this​ ​shook​ ​me.​ ​He pulled​ ​me​ ​aside​ ​and​ ​said​ ​I’m​ ​sorry​ ​it​ ​shook​ ​out​ ​this​ ​way​ ​but​ ​I​ ​want​ ​to​ ​help you,​ ​you​ ​did​ ​a​ ​great​ ​job​ ​on​ ​the​ ​project​ ​and​ ​you​ ​are​ ​doing​ ​graduate​ ​student level​ ​work.​ ​You​ ​are​ ​the​ ​only​ ​one​ ​working​ ​on​ ​this​ ​project​ ​in​ ​a​ ​laboratory​ ​by yourself.​ ​Have​ ​you​ ​thought​ ​about​ ​getting​ ​a​ ​PhD?​ ​It​ ​was​ ​the​ ​first​ ​time​ ​I​ ​had thought​ ​about​ ​it.​ ​We​ ​started​ ​talking​ ​he​ ​said​ ​let​ ​me​ ​talk​ ​to​ ​the​ ​university​ ​of Michigan​ ​and​ ​see​ ​if​ ​I​ ​can​ ​get​ ​you​ ​into​ ​next​ ​year’s​ ​graduate​ ​school​ ​class.​ ​He did.​ ​I​applied​ ​and​ ​was​ ​accepted.​ ​I​ ​had​ ​to​ ​choose​ ​a​ ​new​ ​laboratory​ ​because my​ ​current​ ​boss​ ​wasn’t​ ​tenured​ ​yet.​ ​Trying​ ​to​ ​find​ ​a​ ​new​ ​laboratory​ ​I wanted​ ​to​ ​get​ ​into​ ​the​ ​best​ ​one​ ​so​ ​I​ ​wasn’t​ ​in​ ​another​ ​Stanford​ ​experience getting​ ​scooped.​ ​I​ ​joined​ ​one​ ​that​ ​was​ ​pretty​ ​famous​ ​with​ ​a​ principal investigator​ ​famous​ ​enough​ ​that​ ​he​ ​traveled​ ​a​ ​lot​ ​and​ ​was​ ​an​ ​editor​ ​on​ ​a number​ ​of​ ​journals.​ ​He​ ​was​ ​rarely​ ​there.​ ​He​ ​wasn’t​ ​much​ ​of​ ​a​ ​mentor because​ ​he​ ​wasn’t​ ​around.​ ​I​ ​was​ ​the​ ​only​ ​graduate​ ​student.​ ​I​ ​was​ ​convinced that​ ​he​ ​was​ ​so​ ​famous​ ​that​ ​if​ ​I​ ​produced​ any​ ​results​ ​I​ ​would​ ​get​ ​tons​ ​of credit​ ​and​ ​it​ ​would​ ​advance​ ​my​ ​career.

Scott​ ​Barlow:​​ ​How​ ​did​ ​that​ ​work​ ​out?

AJ​ ​Harbinger:​​ ​Well​ ​it​ ​was​ ​at​ ​this​ ​point​ ​that​ ​my​ ​lack​ ​of​ ​social​ ​skills​ ​and confidence​ ​impacted​ ​me.​ ​In​ ​the​ ​laboratory​ ​things​ ​weren’t​ ​going​ ​my​ ​way. Jordan​ ​and​ ​I​ ​started​ ​a​ ​podcast​ ​in​ ​my​ ​basement​ ​in​ ​Ann​ ​Arbor.​ ​We​ ​started getting​ ​listeners​ ​and​ ​doing​ ​cool​ ​interviews​ ​with​ ​famous​ ​people​ ​and​ ​potential mentors.​ ​Jordan​ ​took​ ​a​ ​job​ ​on​ ​Wall​ ​Street​ ​as​ ​a​ ​lawyer​ ​and​ ​was​ ​moving​ ​to New​ ​York.​ ​I​ ​started​ ​daydreaming​ ​about​ ​what​ ​this​ ​podcast​ ​could​ ​be​ ​versus my​ ​job​ ​in​ ​the​ ​laboratory.​ ​I​ ​never​ ​really​ ​got​ ​along​ ​with​ ​my​ ​boss​ ​in​ ​the laboratory.​ ​I​ ​put​ ​him​ ​on​ ​a​ ​pedestal​ ​and​ ​I​ ​was​ ​shy​ ​around​ ​him​ ​and​ ​my​ ​labmates.​ ​It​ ​hurt​ ​my​ ​work,​ ​my​ ​moral.​ ​I​ ​developed​ ​imposter​ ​syndrome​ ​that nothing​ ​was​ ​going​ ​my​ ​way​ ​and​ ​I​ ​didn’t​ ​belong​ ​here.​ ​My​ ​old​ ​boss​ ​greased​ ​the wheels​ ​to​ ​get​ ​me​ ​into​ ​graduate​ ​school.​ ​It​ ​started​ ​haunting​ ​me​ ​and​ ​I​ ​doubted myself​ ​and​ ​my​ ​abilities.

I​ ​was​ ​presenting​ ​to​ ​my​ ​thesis​ ​committee​ ​on​ ​what​ ​I​ ​wanted​ ​to​ ​work​ ​on.​ ​My boss​ ​had​ ​been​ ​traveling​ ​a​ ​lot.​ ​I​ ​sent​ ​him​ ​my​ ​proposal​ ​slides.​ ​This​ ​is​ ​back​ ​in the​ ​Blackberry​ ​days.​ ​My​ ​boss​ ​was​ ​always​ ​on​ ​his.​ ​I​ ​stupidly​ ​assumed​ ​when​ ​I sent​ ​him​ ​an​ ​email​ ​that​ ​he​ ​saw​ ​the​ ​slides​ ​and​ ​was​ ​happy​ ​because​ ​he​ ​didn’t reply.​ ​In​ ​all​ ​actuality​ ​he​ ​hadn’t​ ​had​ ​a​ ​chance​ ​to​ ​look​ ​at​ ​the​ ​email.​ ​In​ ​the meeting​ ​he​ ​basically​ ​pantsed​ ​me.​ ​He​ ​pointed​ ​out​ ​everything​ ​wrong​ ​with​ ​the idea​ ​and​ ​research​ ​data​ ​points​ ​in​ ​my​ ​presentation​ ​that​ ​didn’t​ ​fit​ ​in​ ​my hypothesis.​ ​They​ ​paused​ ​the​ ​meeting​ ​and​ ​asked​ ​to​ ​come​ ​back​ ​in​ ​90​ ​days and​ ​try​ ​it​ ​again.​ ​I​ ​was​ ​dejected.​ ​I​ ​felt​ ​that​ ​I​ ​wasn’t​ ​getting​ ​anywhere. Graduate​ ​school​ ​was​ ​a​ ​dead​ ​end​ ​track.​ ​I​ ​had​ ​a​ ​boss​ ​that​ ​wasn’t​ ​my​ ​ally​ ​and had​ ​my​ ​back.​ ​I​ ​called​ ​my​ ​dad​ ​and​ ​said​ ​I’m​ ​moving​ ​to​ ​New​ ​York​ ​City​ ​and pursue​ ​this​ ​podcast​ ​with​ ​Jordan.​ ​As​ ​you​ ​can​ ​imagine​ ​he​ ​was​ ​thrilled.​ ​I dropped​ ​out​ ​of​ ​graduate​ ​school,​ ​moved​ ​all​ ​my​ ​possessions​ ​into​ ​a​ ​truck,​ ​and moved​ ​to​ ​New​ ​York.​ ​I​ ​had​ ​never​ ​lived​ ​outside​ ​of​ ​Michigan.​ ​It​ ​was​ ​my​ ​first time​ ​traveling​ ​that​ ​far.​ ​New​ ​York​ ​was​ ​fantastic​ ​in​ ​the​ ​beginning.​ ​I​ ​was​ ​in​ ​my twenties.​ ​We​ ​had​ ​this​ ​great​ ​business​ ​started​ ​with​ ​the​ ​podcast,​ ​turning​ ​into coaching​ ​working​ ​with​ ​clients​ ​and​ ​a​ ​Sirius​ ​XM​ ​radio​ ​show.​ ​I​ ​felt​ ​my​ ​dad would​ ​be​ ​impressed​ ​with​ ​all​ ​we​ ​accomplished​ ​in​ ​a​ ​short​ ​amount​ ​of​ ​time.​ ​He was​ ​not.​ ​He​ ​was​ ​very​ ​frustrated​ ​that​ ​I​ ​left​ ​college​ ​and​ ​graduate​ ​school​ ​and chose​ ​a​ ​career​ ​that​ ​in​ ​his​ ​mind​ ​wasn’t​ ​a​ ​career.​ ​This​ ​was​ ​ten​ ​years​ ​ago​ ​when no​ ​one​ ​had​ ​heard​ ​of​ ​podcasts.

Scott​ ​Barlow:​​ ​Yeah​ ​I​ ​still​ ​find​ ​myself​ ​explaining​ ​what​ ​a​ ​podcast​ ​is.​ ​I​ ​can’t imagine​ ​it​ ​ten​ ​years​ ​ago.

AJ​ ​Harbinger:​​ ​We​ ​heard​ ​a​ ​study​ ​that​ ​30%​ of​ ​Americans​ ​have​ ​heard​ ​of podcasts.​ ​It’s​ ​growing​ ​but​ ​there​ ​are​ ​a​ ​lot​ ​of​ ​people​ ​who​ ​haven’t​ ​heard​ ​of​ ​it.

​Scott​ ​Barlow:​​ ​It​ ​is​ ​building​ ​steam.​ ​Why​ ​at​ ​this​ ​point,​ ​what​ drove this for your​ ​dad?​ ​He​ ​had​ ​certain​ ​expectations​ ​and​ ​perceptions,​ ​but​ you​ ​were​ ​being increasingly​ ​disagreeable​ ​to​ ​those?​ ​What​ ​was​ ​going​ ​on?

AJ​ ​Harbinger:​​ My​ ​dad​ ​was​ ​in​ ​the​ ​Navy​ ​and​ ​missed​ ​an​ ​opportunity​ ​to​ ​go​ ​to college​ ​and​ ​felt​ ​that​ ​his​ ​lack​ ​of​ ​education​ ​hurt​ ​him​ ​in​ ​his​ ​professional​ ​life.​ ​It led​ ​to​ ​him​ ​doing​ ​mostly​ ​manual​ ​labor.​ ​Obviously​ ​all​ ​parents​ ​want​ ​their children​ ​to​ ​do​ ​better.​ ​The​ ​fact​ ​I​ ​had​ ​scientific​ ​aptitude​ ​and​ ​did​ ​well​ ​in​ ​school he​ ​thought​ ​I​ ​should​ ​continue​ ​until​ ​the​ ​end.​ ​Like​ ​all​ ​good​ ​business​ ​ideas things​ ​start​ ​great​ ​and​ ​we​ ​ran​ ​into​ ​some​ ​difficulties.​ ​None​ ​of​ ​us,​ ​the​ ​three business​ ​partners,​ ​me,​ ​Jordan,​ ​and​ ​Johnny,​ ​had​ ​any​ ​business​ ​experience. We​ ​were​ ​learning​ ​on​ ​the​ ​fly​ ​and​ ​making​ ​mistakes.​ ​We​ ​ran​ ​out​ ​of​ ​money​ ​and weren’t​ ​certain​ ​after​ ​a​ ​year​ ​and​ ​a​ ​half​ ​whether​ ​it​ ​could​ ​survive.​ ​I​ ​called​ ​my dad​ ​in​ ​a​ ​moment​ ​of​ ​panic​ ​to​ ​get​ ​clarity​ ​and​ ​his​ ​advice​ ​was​ ​to​ ​move​ ​back​ ​to Michigan​ ​and​ ​go​ ​back​ ​to​ ​graduate​ ​school.

We​ ​decided​ ​we​ ​wanted​ ​to​ ​give​ ​it​ ​one​ ​last​ ​go.​ ​We​ ​relocated​ ​to​ ​L.A.​ ​about eight​ ​years​ ​ago.​ ​When​ ​we​ ​moved​ ​here​ ​things​ ​started​ ​to​ ​pick​ ​up.​ ​We​ ​have been​ ​in​ ​business​ ​for​ ​ten​ ​years.​ ​We​ ​have​ ​been​ ​through​ ​the​ ​downturns​ ​and upswings.​ ​Unfortunately​ ​my​ ​dad​ ​and​ ​I​ ​became​ ​estranged​ ​and​ ​didn’t​ ​talk much.​ ​He​ ​was​ ​disappointed​ ​in​ ​my​ ​career​ ​choice.​ ​He​ ​didn’t’​ ​tell​ ​friends​ ​and family​ ​what​ ​I​ ​was​ ​doing.​ ​Which​ ​led​ ​to​ ​difficulty.​ ​I​ ​was​ ​proud​ ​of​ ​what​ ​I​ ​was doing​ ​but​ ​he​ ​didn’t​ ​understand​ ​it.

Jordan​ ​and​ ​I​ ​being​ ​Michigan​ ​alumni​ ​were​ ​invited​ ​to​ ​give​ ​a​ ​talk​ ​after graduating​ ​as​ ​part​ ​of​ ​their​ ​lecture​ ​series​ ​“What​ ​I​ ​Wish​ ​I​ ​Learned​ ​in Undergrad.”​ ​for​ ​whatever​ ​reason​ ​they​ ​assumed​ ​we​ ​were​ ​successful​ ​alumni. Of​ ​course​ ​at​ ​this​ ​point​ ​we​ ​were​ ​still​ ​struggling.​ ​I​ ​was​ ​excited​ ​and​ ​called​ ​my dad​ ​and​ ​said​ ​we​ ​were​ ​flying​ ​in​ ​and​ ​giving​ ​a​ ​talk​ ​and​ ​the​ ​only​ ​question​ ​he had​ ​was​ ​how​ ​good​ ​are​ ​the​ ​football​ ​tickets.​ ​He​ ​wasn’t​ ​interested​ ​in​ ​what​ ​I had​ ​to​ ​do​ ​with​ ​the​ ​Art​ ​of​ ​Charm​ ​or​ ​what​ ​I​ ​had​ ​to​ ​talk​ ​about​ ​but​ ​he​ ​loved Michigan​ ​football.​ ​I​ ​was​ ​fortunate​ ​and​ ​had​ ​an​ ​amazing​ ​weekend​ ​with​ ​him and​ ​Jordan’s​ ​dad​ ​at​ ​a​ ​Michigan​ ​football​ ​game​ ​and​ ​a​ ​private​ ​stadium​ ​tour. Then​ ​we​ ​had​ ​to​ ​give​ ​this​ ​talk.​ ​I​ ​was​ ​nervous.​ ​It​ ​was​ ​the​ ​first​ ​time​ ​I​ ​would present​ ​in​ ​front​ ​of​ ​my​ ​dad.​ ​I​ ​had​ ​done​ ​small​ ​presentations​ ​before​ ​but​ ​it​ ​was a​ ​first​ ​in​ ​front​ ​of​ ​a​ ​roomful​ ​of​ ​students,​ ​faculty,​ ​and​ ​parents.​ ​It​ ​went​ ​okay.​ ​It wasn’t​ ​one​ ​of​ ​our​ ​best​ ​talks​ ​but​ ​it​ ​ended​ ​well​ ​and​ ​my​ ​dad,​ ​I​ ​could​ ​tell​ ​he​ ​was moved​ ​by​ ​what​ ​we​ ​were​ ​teaching.​ ​The​ ​focus​ ​was​ ​networking​ ​skills​ ​and​ ​how to​ ​nail​ ​a​ ​job​ ​interview​ ​because​ ​those​ ​graduating​ ​are​ ​looking​ ​for​ ​a​ ​job​ ​and need​ ​help​ ​on​ ​interviews.​ ​At​ ​this​ ​point​ ​my​ ​dad​ ​had​ ​an​ ​idea​ ​of​ ​what​ ​the​ ​Art​ ​of Charm​ ​was​ ​about.​ ​I​ ​was​ ​excited​ ​I​ ​rekindled​ ​my​ ​relationship​ ​with​ ​my​ ​dad.

Unfortunately​ ​he​ ​passed​ ​away​ ​suddenly​ ​from​ ​a​ ​heart​ ​attack.​ ​I​ ​had​ ​to​ ​fly back​ ​home​ ​and​ ​help​ ​my​ ​family.​ ​There​ ​were​ ​no​ ​funeral​ ​arrangements​ ​or​ ​will and​ ​it​ ​was​ ​on​ ​my​ ​shoulders.​ ​I​ ​remember​ ​getting​ ​the​ ​news​ ​and​ ​getting​ ​his address​ ​book​ ​and​ ​feeling​ ​this​ ​sense​ ​of​ ​dread​ ​about​ ​calling​ ​everyone.​ ​What do​ ​they​ ​know​ ​about​ ​me?​ ​What​ ​do​ ​they​ ​think​ ​I’m​ ​doing?​ ​What​ ​did​ ​my​ ​dad say?​ ​To​ ​my​ ​shock,​ ​my​ ​dad​ ​after​ ​the​ ​talk​ ​had​ ​called​ ​a​ ​lot​ ​of​ ​friends​ ​and family​ ​to​ ​brag​ ​about​ ​me.​ ​I​ ​didn’t​ ​know​ ​how​ ​proud​ ​my​ ​dad​ ​was​ ​but​ ​he​ ​told friends​ ​and​ ​family​ ​and​ ​I​ ​was​ ​fortunate​ ​to​ ​hear​ ​that​ ​with​ ​his​ ​passing.​ ​It​ ​was one​ ​of​ ​those​ ​moments​ ​where​ ​you​ ​realize​ ​how​ ​short​ ​life​ ​is​ ​and​ ​sometimes​ ​if you​ ​struggle​ ​to​ ​communicate​ ​and​ ​so​ ​does​ ​your​ ​parent​ ​you​ ​can​ ​lead​ ​to​ ​a​ ​lot of​ ​misinformation​ ​and​ ​feeling​ ​like​ ​the​ ​other​ ​person​ ​is​ ​against​ ​you,​ ​even though​ ​they​ ​aren’t​ ​and​ ​just​ ​don’t​ ​have​ ​the​ ​faculties​ ​to​ ​support​ ​you​ ​in​ ​a​ ​more loving​ ​way.​ ​The​ ​company​ ​has​ ​been​ ​through​ ​some​ ​things,​ ​and​ ​me​ ​personally. It’s​ ​fun​ ​now,​ ​the​ ​career​ ​choice​ ​I​ ​made​ ​worked​ ​out​ ​but​ ​in​ ​those​ ​initial​ ​years there​ ​was​ ​a​ ​lot​ ​of​ ​heartache,​ ​wondering,​ ​concern​ ​of​ ​whether​ ​it​ ​would​ ​work out.

Scott​ ​Barlow:​​ ​I’m​ ​super​ ​curious.​ ​All​ ​of​ ​that,​ ​especially​ ​the​ ​situation​ ​with your​ ​dad​ ​and​ ​him​ ​passing​ ​has​ ​had​ ​an​ ​impact​ ​on​ ​you.​ ​I’m​ ​curious​ ​how​ ​much that​ ​drives​ ​you​ ​now?​ ​How​ ​does​ ​it​ ​impact​ ​you?

AJ​ ​Harbinger:​​ ​One​ ​of​ ​the​ ​core​ ​concepts​ ​we​ ​teach​ ​is​ ​how​ ​to​ ​be​ ​vulnerable. Vulnerability​ ​leads​ ​to​ ​connection.​ ​When​ ​you​ ​talk​ ​about​ ​this​ ​it’s​ ​an​ ​ambiguous word.​ ​We​ ​break​ ​it​ ​down​ ​as​ ​part​ ​of​ ​your​ ​narrative.​ ​We​ ​all​ ​have​ ​a​ ​story​ ​we​ ​tell ourselves​ ​and​ ​share​ ​with​ ​the​ ​world.​ ​It’s​ ​made​ ​up​ ​of​ ​three​ ​components:​ ​Your past​ ​-​ ​experiences,​ ​your​ ​present​ ​-​ ​your​ ​values,​ ​beliefs,​ ​morals​ ​that​ ​guide you​ ​daily,​ ​your​ ​future​ ​-​ ​goals,​ ​aspirations​ ​and​ ​fears.​ ​Fears​ ​can​ ​motivate​ ​your goals.​ ​For​ ​me​ ​the​ ​past​ ​I​ ​went​ ​through​ ​with​ ​losing​ ​my​ ​dad​ ​and​ ​not​ ​having​ ​the greatest​ ​relationship​ ​largely​ ​due​ ​to​ ​lacking​ ​social​ ​skills​ ​and​ ​knowing​ ​how​ ​to have​ ​conversations​ ​and​ ​showing​ ​love​ ​when​ ​it​ ​doesn’t​ ​go​ ​your​ ​way.​ ​My
present,​ ​my​ ​dad​ ​valued​ ​and​ ​instilled​ ​in​ ​me,​ ​the​ ​value​ ​of​ ​education.​ ​He​ ​felt​ ​if you​ ​could​ ​achieve​ ​some​ ​semblance​ ​of​ ​knowledge​ ​you​ ​have​ ​enough​ ​power​ ​to succeed​ ​in​ ​life.​ ​I​ ​firmly​ ​believe​ ​that​ ​even​ ​though​ ​I​ ​left​ ​graduate​ ​school.​ ​In my​ ​future,​ ​I’d​ ​love​ ​the​ ​Art​ ​of​ ​Charm​ ​to​ ​be​ ​taught​ ​as​ ​a​ ​curriculum​ ​in​ ​schools. These​ ​social​ ​skills​ ​are​ ​lacking​ ​in​ ​a​ ​lot​ ​of​ ​our​ ​youth.​ ​It​ ​leads​ ​to​ ​frustrations​ ​in people’s​ ​careers,​ ​love​ ​lives​ ​and​ ​relationships.​ ​And​ ​also​ ​the​ ​fear​ ​of​ ​failure​ ​of proving​ ​my​ ​dad​ ​right​ ​that​ ​the​ ​Art​ ​of​ ​Charm​ ​wasn’t​ ​my​ ​future​ ​and​ ​I​ ​shouldn’t go​ ​in​ ​this​ ​direction.​ ​That​ ​fear​ ​of​ ​failure​ ​still​ ​motivates​ ​me​ ​to​ ​make​ ​sure​ ​we are​ ​dotting​ ​all​ ​our​ ​I’s​ ​and​ ​crossing​ ​our​ ​t‘s.

Scott​ ​Barlow:​​ ​I’m​ ​pausing​ ​for​ ​a​ ​moment​ ​because​ ​I’m​ ​so​ ​impressed​ ​with you​ ​describing​ ​your​ ​background​ ​and​ ​where​ ​you​ ​have​ ​come​ ​from.​ ​Behind​ ​the scenes​ ​is​ ​someone​ ​who​ ​has​ ​put​ ​together​ ​a​ ​lot​ ​of​ ​trainings​ ​and​ ​talks.​ ​What you​ ​just​ ​did​ ​there​ ​in​ ​terms​ ​of​ ​being​ ​able​ ​to​ ​take​ ​that​ ​story​ ​and​ ​turn​ ​it​ ​into the​ ​framework​ ​you​ ​have​ ​used​ ​and​ ​taught​ ​and​ ​intersperse​ ​that​ ​amongst​ ​the framework.​ ​That​ ​takes​ ​practice.​ ​Kudos​ ​to​ ​you.​ ​I​ ​love​ ​how​ ​you​ ​are​ ​an example​ ​of​ ​the​ ​product​ ​for​ ​lack​ ​of​ ​better​ ​phrase.

AJ​ ​Harbinger:​​ ​We​ ​eat​ ​our​ ​own​ ​dog​ ​food.​ ​We​ ​live​ ​and​ ​breathe​ ​these concepts.​ ​That​ ​is​ ​one​ ​of​ ​the​ ​biggest​ ​reasons​ ​we​ ​are​ ​so​ ​drawn​ ​to​ ​teach​ ​it. Gaining​ ​these​ ​skills​ ​for​ ​me,​ ​and​ ​your​ ​listeners​ ​may​ ​be​ ​shocked,​ ​but​ ​I’m introverted.​ ​Even​ ​though​ ​I​ ​have​ ​these​ ​tools​ ​and​ ​skills​ ​of​ ​extroverts.​ ​It’s energetically​ ​draining​ ​for​ ​me​ ​to​ ​go​ ​into​ ​a​ ​loud​ ​crazy​ ​social​ ​environment​ ​and talk​ ​to​ ​a​ ​lot​ ​of​ ​people.​ ​At​ ​the​ ​end​ ​of​ ​those​ ​events​ ​I​ ​need​ ​to​ ​be​ ​in​ ​solitude​ ​to recharge.​ ​Extroverts​ ​gain​ ​energy​ ​from​ ​being​ ​social.​ ​They​ ​gain​ ​energy​ ​in those​ ​environments.​ ​My​ ​career​ ​stalled​ ​out​ ​in​ ​graduate​ ​school​ ​because​ ​I didn’t​ ​have​ ​effective​ ​social​ ​skills.​ ​I​ ​held​ ​back​ ​not​ ​sharing​ ​ideas.​ ​Over​ ​time that​ ​led​ ​to​ ​my​ ​boss​ ​and​ ​laboratory​ ​mates​ ​thinking​ ​I​ ​was​ ​arrogant​ ​and disinterested.​ ​When​ ​you​ ​have​ ​that​ ​situation​ ​where​ ​you​ ​are​ ​feeling​ ​and​ ​acting
one​ ​way​ ​but​ ​the​ ​people​ ​you​ ​interact​ ​with​ ​are​ ​getting​ ​a​ ​different​ ​sense​ ​of who​ ​you​ ​are​ ​it​ ​can​ ​lead​ ​to​ ​a​ ​lot​ ​of​ ​frustration​ ​and​ ​heartache.​ ​In​ ​building​ ​this company​ ​the​ ​social​ ​skills​ ​were​ ​around​ ​how​ ​do​ ​I​ ​make​ ​more​ ​friends​ ​and​ ​date women.​ ​Now​ ​it’s​ ​grown​ ​to​ ​building​ ​confidence​ ​and​ ​knowing​ ​you​ ​have​ ​skills you​ ​can​ ​walk​ ​into​ ​any​ ​situation​ ​and​ ​confidently​ ​express​ ​yourself​ ​and​ ​make sure​ ​the​ ​other​ ​person​ ​knows​ ​who​ ​you​ ​are​ ​fully.​ ​There​ ​is​ ​no​ ​grey​ ​area​ ​where they​ ​can​ ​assume​ ​negatives.

Scott​ ​Barlow:​​ ​Let’s​ ​talk​ ​about​ ​the​ ​concept​ ​of​ ​holding​ ​back​ ​and vulnerability,​ ​which​ ​is​ ​the​ ​opposite​ ​of​ ​holding​ ​back​ ​in​ ​some​ ​ways.​ ​You​ ​talked about​ ​this​ ​past,​ ​present,​ ​and​ ​future​ ​concept.​ ​I’d​ ​love​ ​to​ ​delve​ ​into​ ​that​ ​and how​ ​people​ ​can​ ​get​ ​started​ ​in​ ​being​ ​more​ ​vulnerable​ ​day​ ​to​ ​day.

AJ​ ​Harbinger:​​ ​I​ ​think​ ​the​ ​biggest​ ​thing​ ​is​ ​a​ ​lot​ ​of​ ​us​ ​have​ ​this​ ​confusion​ ​or misconception​ ​around​ ​connection.​ ​We​ ​feel​ ​or​ ​assume​ ​that​ ​connection happens​ ​through​ ​commonalities,​ ​shared​ ​interests.​ ​In​ ​reality​ ​it​ ​happens through​ ​sharing​ ​emotions​ ​because​ ​they​ ​are​ ​universal.​ ​They​ ​are​ ​tied​ ​to experiences.​ ​Even​ ​if​ ​you​ ​and​ ​I​ ​have​ ​had​ ​vastly​ ​different​ ​experiences,​ ​maybe you​ ​haven’t​ ​been​ ​to​ ​graduate​ ​school​ ​or​ ​shared​ ​in​ ​front​ ​of​ ​a​ ​bunch​ ​of​ ​people you​ ​can​ ​still​ ​tell​ ​that,​ ​oh​ ​A.J.​ ​was​ ​nervous​ ​going​ ​into​ ​this​ ​talk.​ ​You​ ​can​ ​think
of​ ​times​ ​when​ ​you​ ​felt​ ​nervous​ ​and​ ​that​ ​is​ ​where​ ​the​ ​connection​ ​is.​ ​On​ ​the emotion,​ ​not​ ​the​ ​experience​ ​like​ ​we​ ​both​ ​went​ ​to​ ​Michigan.​ ​Becoming vulnerable​ ​starts​ ​with​ ​owning​ ​your​ ​past.​ ​We’ve​ ​had​ ​these​ ​life​ ​lessons​ ​but they​ ​are​ ​tied​ ​to​ ​hardships​ ​where​ ​we​ ​don’t​ ​look​ ​our​ ​best​ ​or​ ​achieve​ ​what​ ​we set​ ​out​ ​to.​ ​We​ ​hold​ ​on​ ​to​ ​the​ ​lessons​ ​but​ ​don’t​ ​share​ ​them.​ ​We​ ​try​ ​to present​ ​ourselves​ ​as​ ​competent​ ​and​ ​impactful.​ ​In​ ​reality​ ​it’s​ ​in​ ​the​ ​lessons that​ ​people​ ​can​ ​sense​ ​who​ ​we​ ​are​ ​as​ ​a​ ​person​ ​and​ ​get​ ​to​ ​know​ ​us​ ​better.

When​ ​we​ ​work​ ​with​ ​clients​ ​the​ ​first​ ​thing​ ​we​ ​do​ ​to​ ​build​ ​your​ ​narrative​ ​is identify​ ​two​ ​to​ ​three​ ​lessons​ ​in​ ​your​ ​past​ ​that​ ​have​ ​come​ ​through experience.​ ​Ideally​ ​one​ ​or​ ​two​ ​of​ ​these​ ​should​ ​be​ ​ones​ ​that​ ​didn’t​ ​go​ ​your way.​ ​Then​ ​we​ ​talk​ ​about​ ​sharing​ ​them​ ​with​ ​your​ ​friends​ ​and​ ​strangers.​ ​If you​ ​have​ ​a​ ​clear​ ​narrative​ ​the​ ​person​ ​you​ ​are​ ​talking​ ​to​ ​will​ ​find​ ​you charismatic,​ ​memorable,​ ​and​ ​feel​ ​more​ ​connected​ ​to​ ​you​ ​versus​ ​if​ ​you​ ​were to​ ​spout​ ​off​ ​your​ ​resume​ ​or​ ​accomplishments.​ ​In​ ​your​ ​present​ ​you​ ​have​ ​to identify​ ​your​ ​values.​ ​That​ ​takes​ ​talking​ ​to​ ​your​ ​friends​ ​-​ ​what​ ​do​ ​you​ ​think about​ ​what​ ​I​ ​value.​ ​A​ ​lot​ ​of​ ​my​ ​friends​ ​would​ ​say​ ​honesty​ ​and​ ​loyalty​ ​and education.​ ​I​ ​always​ ​find​ ​myself​ ​trying​ ​to​ ​learn​ ​new​ ​skills.​ ​Once​ ​you​ ​have those​ ​together​ ​we​ ​don’t​ ​have​ ​to​ ​tackle​ ​the​ ​future​ ​but​ ​we​ ​have​ ​a​ ​good starting​ ​point​ ​to​ ​guide​ ​our​ ​conversation.​ ​When​ ​someone​ ​says​ ​be​ ​vulnerable you​ ​can​ ​share​ ​these​ ​two​ ​stories​ ​or​ ​lessons.​ ​For​ ​me​ ​I’ve​ ​had​ ​this​ ​chance​ ​to share​ ​my​ ​story​ ​with​ ​thousands​ ​of​ ​people.​ ​Your​ ​narrative​ ​strengthens.​ ​People know​ ​you​ ​for​ ​these​ ​reasons​ ​and​ ​feel​ ​connected​ ​to​ ​you.

Scott​ ​Barlow:​​ ​My​ ​question​ ​and​ ​what​ ​my​ ​listeners​ ​may​ ​have​ ​is​ ​that​ ​sounds fantastic​ ​in​ ​theory.​ ​I​ ​have​ ​experienced​ ​and​ ​benefited​ ​from​ ​this​ ​however, within​ ​those​ ​one​ ​to​ ​three​ ​lessons,​ ​what​ ​are​ ​the​ ​context​ ​with​ ​which​ ​I​ ​might share.​ ​Do​ ​I​ ​just​ ​go​ ​up​ ​to​ ​people​ ​and​ ​say​ ​I​ ​had​ ​this​ ​happen​ ​in​ ​my​ ​past? Where​ ​and​ ​what​ ​context​ ​does​ ​that​ ​get​ ​used​ ​to​ ​bring​ ​clarity​ ​in​ ​how​ ​people might​ ​get​ ​started?

AJ​ ​Harbinger:​​ ​We​ ​like​ ​to​ ​think​ ​there​ ​are​ ​three​ ​phrases​ ​to​ ​the​ ​interaction. There​ ​are​ ​different​ ​tools.​ ​The​ ​first​ ​is​ ​getting​ ​people​ ​interested​ ​in​ ​you.​ ​I’m​ ​not walking​ ​up​ ​to​ ​people​ ​and​ ​telling​ ​them​ ​my​ ​life​ ​story.​ ​That​ ​first​ ​phase​ ​is​ ​all about​ ​your​ ​nonverbal​ ​communication​ ​and​ ​setting​ ​the​ ​first​ ​impression.​ ​That​ ​is made​ ​before​ ​we​ ​open​ ​our​ ​mouth.​ ​Then​ ​it’s​ ​showcasing​ ​three​ ​parts​ ​of​ ​your personality​ ​everyone​ ​resonates​ ​with,​ ​fun​ ​loving,​ ​a​ ​back​ ​bone​ ​-​ ​being challenging,​ ​making​ ​sure​ ​people​ ​don’t​ ​see​ ​you​ ​as​ ​just​ ​agreeable.​ ​Sometimes when​ ​we​ ​start​ ​a​ ​conversation​ ​when​ ​we​ ​don’t​ ​know​ ​them​ ​we​ ​want​ ​to​ ​win their​ ​approval​ ​so​ ​we​ ​just​ ​shake​ ​our​ ​head​ ​yes​ ​and​ ​agree​ ​with​ ​everything.​ ​It pushes​ ​them​ ​away.​ ​At​ ​the​ ​start​ ​we​ ​want​ ​to​ ​get​ ​them​ ​talking.​ ​Take​ ​interest in​ ​them​ ​and​ ​ask​ ​them​ ​questions.​ ​Listen​ ​to​ ​the​ ​logical​ ​answer​ ​and​ ​the
emotions​ ​coming​ ​through.

We​ ​move​ ​to​ ​the​ ​second​ ​phase.​ ​We​ ​have​ ​them​ ​interested​ ​and​ ​ask​ ​questions. We’ve​ ​related.​ ​Now​ ​we​ ​want​ ​to​ ​show​ ​them​ ​genuine​ ​interest​ ​and​ ​reward​ ​their interest​ ​in​ ​us.​ ​We​ ​give​ ​a​ ​compliment​ ​around​ ​their​ ​personality.​ ​It’s​ ​much more​ ​genuine​ ​than​ ​saying​ ​you​ ​are​ ​good​ ​looking​ ​or​ ​tall.​ ​If​ ​you​ ​are​ ​a​ ​good listener​ ​pieces​ ​of​ ​their​ ​personality​ ​will​ ​come​ ​through.

The​ ​third​ ​phase​ ​is​ ​where​ ​we​ ​share​ ​our​ ​narrative.​ ​We​ ​are​ ​trying​ ​to​ ​build​ ​a connection.​ ​As​ ​we​ ​are​ ​listening​ ​to​ ​emotions​ ​they​ ​are​ ​sharing​ ​we​ ​pick​ ​one that​ ​is​ ​resonating​ ​in​ ​our​ ​life​ ​lesson​ ​and​ ​then​ ​you​ ​share​ ​your​ ​narrative.​ ​Don’t lead​ ​with​ ​my​ ​dad​ ​died​ ​and​ ​I​ ​dropped​ ​out​ ​of​ ​graduate​ ​school.​ ​I​ ​lead​ ​with questions​ ​to​ ​get​ ​to​ ​know​ ​them​ ​and​ ​listen​ ​to​ ​their​ ​answer​ ​and​ ​respond​ ​with the​ ​relatable​ ​by​ ​disclosing​ ​about​ ​myself.​ ​When​ ​we​ ​get​ ​nervous​ ​we​ ​get​ ​in​ ​the question​ ​trap.​ ​We​ ​ask​ ​a​ ​question​ ​but​ ​don’t​ ​pay​ ​attention​ ​to​ ​the​ ​answer​ ​and it's​ ​back​ ​to​ ​us​ ​so​ ​we​ ​just​ ​ask​ ​a​ ​follow-up​ ​question​ ​and​ ​so​ ​on.​ ​They​ ​feel​ ​they have​ ​shared​ ​a​ ​lot​ ​but​ ​you​ ​haven’t.​ ​The​ ​formula​ ​we​ ​discuss​ ​in​ ​class​ ​for starting​ ​conversations​ ​with​ ​anyone​ ​is​ ​we​ ​ask​ ​a​ ​question,​ ​listen​ ​to​ ​the​ ​answer and​ ​respond​ ​with​ ​a​ ​statement.​ ​If​ ​you​ ​do​ ​that,​ ​we’ve​ ​found​ ​two​ ​questions leads​ ​to​ ​them​ ​taking​ ​interest​ ​in​ ​you​ ​and​ ​asking​ ​a​ ​question.​ ​That​ ​is​ ​how conversations​ ​start.

Scott​ ​Barlow:​​ ​And​ ​how​ ​they​ ​flourish​ ​I​ ​would​ ​say.

AJ​ ​Harbinger:​​ ​We​ ​say​ ​in​ ​order​ ​to​ ​be​ ​interesting​ ​you​ ​have​ ​to​ ​be​ ​interested. People​ ​will​ ​not​ ​be​ ​interested​ ​in​ ​you​ ​until​ ​you​ ​take​ ​interested​ ​in​ ​them.​ ​We​ ​are all​ ​primed​ ​to​ ​answer​ ​stranger’s​ ​questions.​ ​Even​ ​if​ ​I​ ​were​ ​sitting​ ​at​ ​a​ ​stop sign​ ​listening​ ​to​ ​music​ ​and​ ​a​ ​car​ ​pulls​ ​up​ ​by​ ​me​ ​and​ ​rolls​ ​down​ ​the​ ​window I’m​ ​going​ ​to​ ​instinctively​ ​roll​ ​down​ ​my​ ​window​ ​because​ ​they​ ​are​ ​going​ ​to​ ​ask me​ ​a​ ​question.​ ​Asking​ ​questions​ ​is​ ​a​ ​great​ ​way​ ​to​ ​start​ ​conversations.​ ​In those​ ​moments​ ​where​ ​you​ ​don’t​ ​know​ ​what​ ​to​ ​say​ ​or​ ​you’ve​ ​run​ ​out​ ​of everything​ ​to​ ​talk​ ​about​ ​you​ ​ask​ ​a​ ​different​ ​question​ ​and​ ​get​ ​them​ ​opening up.​ ​The​ ​beauty​ ​of​ ​questions​ ​is​ ​the​ ​answer​ ​will​ ​be​ ​about​ ​themselves​ ​which​ ​is
everyone’s​ ​favorite​ ​conversation​ ​topic.

Scott​ ​Barlow:​​ ​Let​ ​me​ ​ask​ ​you​ ​about​ ​that​ ​and​ ​practice​ ​what​ ​you​ ​are preaching.​ ​I​ ​hear​ ​all​ ​the​ ​time​ ​and​ ​suspect​ ​listeners​ ​do​ ​to,​ ​that​ ​you​ ​need​ ​to be​ ​genuinely​ ​interested​ ​in​ ​somebody.​ ​It​ ​sounds​ ​great​ ​but​ ​how​ ​do​ ​you actually​ ​do​ ​that.​ ​What​ ​are​ ​ways​ ​to​ ​get​ ​out​ ​of​ ​my​ ​head​ ​and​ ​be​ ​genuinely interested?​ ​What​ ​is​ ​the​ ​nitty​ ​gritty?

AJ​ ​Harbinger:​​ ​The​ ​best​ ​way​ ​we​ ​talk​ ​about​ ​is​ ​asking​ ​how​ ​and​ ​why questions.​ ​Much​ ​like​ ​this​ ​conversation​ ​we​ ​are​ ​having,​ ​not​ ​knowing​ ​each
other​ ​beforehand,​ ​one​ ​of​ ​the​ ​first​ ​things​ ​you​ ​ask​ ​is​ ​how​ ​did​ ​you​ ​decide​ ​on this​ ​career​ ​path​ ​and​ ​what​ ​happens.​ ​I​ ​can​ ​talk​ ​for​ ​30​ ​or​ ​40​ ​minutes.​ ​When you​ ​ask​ ​how​ ​and​ ​why​ ​questions​ ​it​ ​gives​ ​the​ ​other​ ​person​ ​opportunity​ ​to share​ ​their​ ​thoughts,​ ​feelings,​ ​and​ ​experiences.​ ​You​ ​have​ ​a​ ​lot​ ​to​ ​draw​ ​from in​ ​sparking​ ​that​ ​interest.​ ​It​ ​takes​ ​the​ ​initial​ ​curiosity​ ​and​ ​becoming​ ​a​ ​good listener.​ ​Unfortunately,​ ​a​ ​lot​ ​of​ ​us​ ​have​ ​dull​ ​listening​ ​skills.​ ​We​ ​think​ ​too much​ ​and​ ​don’t​ ​focus​ ​on​ ​the​ ​other​ ​person.​ ​It’s​ ​important​ ​to​ ​listen​ ​to​ ​their answer​ ​with​ ​your​ ​eyes​ ​and​ ​ears.​ ​We​ ​make​ ​eye​ ​contact​ ​as​ ​we​ ​ask​ ​the question.​ ​While​ ​I’m​ ​talking​ ​to​ ​you​ ​I​ ​want​ ​to​ ​make​ ​eye​ ​contact​ ​while​ ​I​ ​ask the​ ​question,​ ​one​ ​so​ ​you​ ​know​ ​I’m​ ​talking​ ​to​ ​you,​ ​and​ ​two​ ​I​ ​can​ ​see​ ​your facial​ ​expressions​ ​and​ ​your​ ​response​ ​to​ ​the​ ​question​ ​will​ ​be​ ​seen​ ​through your​ ​expressions,​ ​then​ ​your​ ​words.​ ​Allowing​ ​eye​ ​contact​ ​and​ ​reading​ ​their emotional​ ​state​ ​and​ ​turning​ ​your​ ​ear​ ​to​ ​listening,​ ​looking​ ​at​ ​someone​ ​and breaking​ ​eye​ ​contact​ ​allows​ ​those​ ​with​ ​anxiety​ ​to​ ​break​ ​and​ ​actually​ ​hear what​ ​the​ ​other​ ​person​ ​says.

Scott​ ​Barlow:​​ ​That​ ​is​ ​interesting​ ​and​ ​useful.​ ​On​ ​the​ ​note​ ​of​ ​anxiety,​ ​I’m curious,​ ​what​ ​is​ ​the​ ​most​ ​difficult​ ​thing​ ​you​ ​have​ ​found​ ​to​ ​teach​ ​to​ ​someone experiencing​ ​tons​ ​of​ ​anxiety​ ​in​ ​terms​ ​of​ ​being​ ​able​ ​to​ ​connect​ ​genuinely?

AJ​ ​Harbinger:​​ ​The​ ​basis​ ​of​ ​the​ ​program​ ​is​ ​built​ ​around​ ​cognitive​ ​behavioral therapy​ ​techniques.​ ​You​ ​learn​ ​something​ ​and​ ​we​ ​go​ ​out​ ​into​ ​the​ ​world​ ​and apply​ ​it.​ ​We​ ​teach​ ​the​ ​concept​ ​of​ ​the​ ​conversation​ ​formula​ ​then​ ​we​ ​have them​ ​practice​ ​with​ ​each​ ​other.​ ​Grab​ ​a​ ​partner​ ​and​ ​practice​ ​training​ ​yourself not​ ​to​ ​fire​ ​back​ ​question​ ​after​ ​question.​ ​But​ ​focus​ ​on​ ​making​ ​a​ ​statement. You​ ​have​ ​to​ ​listen​ ​to​ ​do​ ​it.​ ​The​ ​formula​ ​is​ ​so​ ​effective​ ​for​ ​analytical​ ​people. If​ ​I​ ​have​ ​to​ ​follow​ ​the​ ​formula​ ​I​ ​better​ ​be​ ​listening.​ ​That​ ​is​ ​the​ ​first​ ​step.Then​ ​we​ ​bring​ ​in​ ​coaches​ ​to​ ​interact​ ​with​ ​them​ ​on​ ​camera​ ​and​ ​videotape​ ​the conversation​ ​with​ ​you​ ​using​ ​it.​ ​We​ ​play​ ​it​ ​back​ ​with​ ​no​ ​audio​ ​to​ ​see​ ​the nonverbal​ ​communication.​ ​We​ ​often​ ​overlook​ ​this.​ ​Then​ ​we​ ​play​ ​it​ ​back​ ​with sound​ ​and​ ​look​ ​at​ ​what​ ​were​ ​the​ ​moments​ ​in​ ​conversation​ ​where​ ​you​ ​asked a​ ​quick​ ​follow-up​ ​or​ ​didn’t​ ​use​ ​a​ ​statement.​ ​We​ ​pause​ ​and​ ​ask​ ​what​ ​you could​ ​have​ ​said.​ ​We​ ​prime​ ​them​ ​even​ ​though​ ​it’s​ ​not​ ​real​ ​time.​ ​All​ ​I​ ​need​ ​to do​ ​is​ ​slow​ ​down.​ ​When​ ​we​ ​have​ ​anxiety​ ​we​ ​move​ ​fast​ ​and​ ​everything​ ​is hyper​ ​speed.​ ​The​ ​video​ ​work​ ​slows​ ​things​ ​down​ ​and​ ​then​ ​we​ ​go​ ​out​ ​and apply​ ​them​ ​in​ ​the​ ​town​ ​with​ ​coaches​ ​watching​ ​you​ ​and​ ​giving​ ​feedback​ ​the next​ ​day.​ ​We​ ​learn​ ​concepts,​ ​practice,​ ​break​ ​them​ ​down,​ ​get​ ​feedback, slowing​ ​process​ ​down​ ​and​ ​go​ ​out​ ​in​ ​the​ ​real​ ​world​ ​and​ ​speed​ ​it​ ​up​ ​and​ ​get 360​ ​degree​ ​feedback.

Scott​ ​Barlow:​​ ​That​ ​is​ ​amazing.​ ​What​ ​you​ ​are​ ​talking​ ​about​ ​is​ ​behavior change.​ ​That​ ​is​ ​not​ ​the​ ​easiest​ ​thing​ ​to​ ​do.​ ​I​ ​love​ ​how​ ​you​ ​have​ ​developed this​ ​over​ ​the​ ​years.​ ​I​ ​want​ ​to​ ​ask​ ​you​ ​a​ ​completely​ ​different​ ​question​ ​out​ ​of curiosity.​ ​You​ ​have​ ​been​ ​teaching​ ​this​ ​for​ ​a​ ​while.​ ​You​ ​came​ ​from​ ​a​ ​place, and​ ​I​ ​think​ ​many​ ​people​ ​do,​ ​where​ ​they​ ​don’t​ ​have​ ​social​ ​skills,​ ​it​ ​has​ ​to​ ​be learned​ ​along​ ​the​ ​line.​ ​What​ ​do​ ​you​ ​find​ ​the​ ​areas​ ​you​ ​are​ ​personally working​ ​on​ ​tor​ ​the​ ​areas​ ​that​ ​are​ ​the​ ​most​ ​difficult​ ​even​ ​though​ ​you​ ​know the​ ​stuff?

AJ​ ​Harbinger:​​ ​The​ ​big​ ​thing​ ​we​ ​were​ ​fortunate​ ​with​ ​is​ ​we​ ​have​ ​incredible mentors.​ ​I​ ​think​ ​that​ ​one​ ​of​ ​the​ ​big​ ​reasons​ ​we​ ​went​ ​into​ ​coaching​ ​is​ ​the value​ ​of​ ​having​ ​someone​ ​who​ ​has​ ​been​ ​through​ ​the​ ​process​ ​guiding​ ​you. These​ ​social​ ​skills​ ​were​ ​assimilated​ ​working​ ​with​ ​mentors,​ ​taking​ ​Dale Carnegie​ ​courses,​ ​and​ ​self-development​ ​and​ ​business​ ​development​ ​courses and​ ​hard​ ​work.​ ​In​ ​terms​ ​of​ ​what​ ​I’m​ ​currently​ ​working​ ​on​ ​is​ ​adding​ ​structure and​ ​discipline​ ​to​ ​my​ ​daily​ ​life.​ ​I​ ​tend​ ​to​ ​be​ ​more​ ​spontaneous​ ​and​ ​not​ ​as structured.​ ​Which​ ​is​ ​unusual​ ​for​ ​a​ ​scientist.​ ​Time​ ​management​ ​is​ ​one​ ​of​ ​my focuses​ ​to​ ​maximize​ ​the​ ​scarce​ ​resource​ ​of​ ​time.​ ​Running​ ​a​ ​company​ ​there are​ ​a​ ​lot​ ​of​ ​demands​ ​that​ ​need​ ​done.​ ​I’m​ ​working​ ​on​ ​that​ ​and​ ​health​ ​and physical​ ​fitness.​ ​I’m​ ​not​ ​a​ ​gym​ ​rat​ ​but​ ​my​ ​dad’s​ ​mortality​ ​has​ ​shown​ ​me​ ​I need​ ​to​ ​emphasize​ ​my​ ​health​ ​and​ ​nutrition.​ ​That​ ​is​ ​another​ ​area​ ​over​ ​the last​ ​couple​ ​years.​ ​That​ ​has​ ​been​ ​a​ ​struggle​ ​but​ ​I​ ​have​ ​a​ ​supportive​ ​girlfriend and​ ​friends​ ​to​ ​get​ ​over​ ​the​ ​hump.​ ​For​ ​fun​ ​I’m​ ​learning​ ​how​ ​to​ ​play​ ​golf challenging​ ​my​ ​mental​ ​and​ ​physical​ ​skills​ ​there.

Scott​ ​Barlow:​​ ​Golf​ ​is​ ​one​ ​of​ ​those​ ​things​ ​you​ ​can​ ​spend​ ​so​ ​much​ ​time​ ​and plateau,​ ​or​ ​get​ ​to​ ​an​ ​area​ ​of​ ​where​ ​it​ ​is​ ​increasing​ ​in​ ​smaller​ ​steps.​ ​I​ ​used​ ​to live​ ​in​ ​Portland,​ ​Oregon​ ​where​ ​there​ ​are​ ​tons​ ​of​ ​golf​ ​courses​ ​and​ ​you​ ​can play​ ​all​ ​year​ ​round.​ ​There​ ​are​ ​areas​ ​in​ ​California​ ​like​ ​that​ ​too.​ ​That​ ​was​ ​a fun​ ​time​ ​for​ ​me.​ ​I​ ​got​ ​to​ ​go​ ​for​ ​a​ ​year​ ​and​ ​dive​ ​into​ ​golf​ ​and​ ​play​ ​three times​ ​a​ ​week.​ ​With​ ​all​ ​of​ ​those​ ​areas​ ​what​ ​are​ ​you​ ​doing​ ​in​ ​the​ ​time management​ ​area?

AJ​ ​Harbinger:​​ ​The​ ​biggest​ ​thing​ ​is​ ​turning​ ​off​ ​notifications​ ​and​ ​creating blocks​ ​of​ ​time​ ​to​ ​be​ ​in​ ​my​ ​inbox​ ​or​ ​working​ ​exclusively​ ​on​ ​something.​ ​I’ve removed​ ​electronics​ ​from​ ​the​ ​bedroom​ ​so​ ​I’m​ ​not​ ​focused​ ​on​ ​what​ ​is​ ​going on​ ​on​ ​social​ ​media​ ​in​ ​terms​ ​of​ ​getting​ ​ready​ ​for​ ​bed​ ​or​ ​getting​ ​up​ ​in​ ​the morning.​ ​It’s​ ​blocking​ ​time​ ​saying​ ​for​ ​this​ ​hour​ ​I’m​ ​focusing​ ​on​ ​my​ ​inbox and​ ​not​ ​checking​ ​it​ ​all​ ​day​ ​because​ ​you​ ​lose​ ​a​ ​lot​ ​of​ ​time​ ​doing​ ​things​ ​just​ ​to do​ ​things​ ​and​ ​not​ ​moving​ ​forward.​ ​Creating​ ​chunks​ ​of​ ​time​ ​to​ ​tackle​ ​certain things​ ​so​ ​I’m​ ​not​ ​getting​ ​drawn​ ​on​ ​goose​ ​chases​ ​where​ ​I​ ​have​ ​time​ ​set​ ​to create​ ​content,​ ​getting​ ​the​ ​word​ ​out​ ​and​ ​sharing.​ ​Running​ ​the​ ​coaching programs​ ​I​ ​have​ ​set​ ​aside​ ​very​ ​week​ ​and​ ​business​ ​development​ ​to​ ​grow.​ ​I’m focused​ ​on​ ​those​ ​and​ ​chunked​ ​on​ ​that.​ ​I​ ​stay​ ​on​ ​that​ ​focused​ ​path.​ ​I​ ​have​ ​a weekly​ ​check​ ​in​ ​to​ ​say​ ​in​ ​terms​ ​of​ ​my​ ​to-do​ ​list​ ​how​ ​effective​ ​was​ ​I?​ ​What did​ ​I​ ​put​ ​off?​ ​This​ ​needs​ ​to​ ​be​ ​what​ ​I​ ​tackle​ ​first​ ​next​ ​week.​ ​That​ ​is​ ​a​ ​work​ ​in progress.​ ​I’m​ ​not​ ​a​ ​time​ ​management​ ​expert​ ​but​ ​I’m​ ​trying​ ​to​ ​grow​ ​and strengthen.

Scott​ ​Barlow:​​ ​I​ ​so​ ​appreciate​ ​you​ ​sharing​ ​and​ ​taking​ ​and​ ​making​ ​the​ ​time to​ ​come​ ​on​ ​the​ ​show​ ​in​ ​the​ ​first​ ​place.​ ​This​ ​has​ ​been​ ​a​ ​fun​ ​conversation​ ​for me.​ ​Thank​ ​you,​ ​I​ ​have​ ​nothing​ ​else​ ​to​ ​say​ ​but​ ​thank​ ​you.​ ​I​ ​really​ ​appreciate it.

AJ​ ​Harbinger:​​ ​It’s​ ​been​ ​great​ ​thanks​ ​for​ ​having​ ​me.

Scott​ ​Barlow:​​ ​Absolutely.​ ​For​ ​people​ ​that​ ​want​ ​more​ ​AJ​ ​or​ ​the​ ​Art​ ​of Charm.​ ​How​ ​can​ ​they​ ​find​ ​out​ ​more​ ​about​ ​you?

AJ​ ​Harbinger:​​ ​We​ ​have​ ​a​ ​podcast.​ ​If​ ​you​ ​are​ ​a​ ​podcast​ ​listener​ ​that​ ​is​ ​the best​ ​place​ ​to​ ​start.​ ​The​ ​Art​ ​of​ ​Charm​ ​where​ ​we​ ​interview​ ​successful​ ​people, celebrities,​ ​and​ ​athletes​ ​and​ ​distill​ ​actionable​ ​steps​ ​so​ ​listeners​ ​can​ ​improve their​ ​lives​ ​based​ ​on​ ​these​ ​life​ ​lessons​ ​successful​ ​people​ ​have​ ​had.​ ​We​ ​offer toolbox​ ​episodes​ ​where​ ​we​ ​cover​ ​the​ ​social​ ​skills​ ​I​ ​was​ ​going​ ​over​ ​with​ ​you in​ ​detail.​ ​You​ ​can​ ​go​ ​to​ ​the​ ​artofcharm.com/toolbox​ ​to​ ​find​ ​more​ ​social​ ​skills content​ ​from​ ​us.​ ​Those​ ​are​ ​free​ ​episodes​ ​where​ ​we​ ​break​ ​down​ ​how​ ​to​ ​have conversations​ ​with​ ​people,​ ​how​ ​to​ ​build​ ​a​ ​social​ ​circle,​ ​how​ ​to​ ​be​ ​more confident.​ ​If​ ​you​ ​are​ ​interested​ ​in​ ​upping​ ​your​ ​social​ ​skills​ ​we​ ​have​ ​a​ ​social skills​ ​challenge​ ​at​ ​the​ ​artofhcarm.com/challenge.​ ​It's​ ​30​ ​days,​ ​testing​ ​your metal​ ​with​ ​social​ ​skills​ ​and​ ​there​ ​is​ ​a​ ​Facebook​ ​group​ ​to​ ​meet​ ​like-minded individuals​ ​trying​ ​to​ ​improve​ ​themselves.

Scott​ ​Barlow:​​ ​I​ ​love​ ​it.​ ​I​ encourage you to check it out. There are so many great​ ​resources.​ ​Take​ ​the​ challenge.​ ​Thank​ ​you​ ​again​ ​AJ.​ ​I​ ​so​ ​very​ ​much appreciate​ ​it.

AJ​ ​Harbinger:​​ ​Thank​ ​you​ ​so​ ​much.​ ​It’s​ ​a​ ​great​ ​time