591: From Curiosity to Career Change: Leveraging Your Network to Land Your Next Role

Travis Van Oosbree 00:01

Don't be afraid to just make that really awkward connection. Because if you don't, you're right where you are, and if you do, you know maybe after that conversation, you'll still be right where you are, but maybe you'll be somewhere further along in the road.

Introduction 00:24

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:49

So tell me if you've ever had this thought when you were wanting to change jobs, it goes along these lines, "If only I could simply hop onto a job board, plug in the right keywords, and then poof, have my ideal career appear." If you've listened to this podcast for a while, or if you've ever searched for jobs online, you know that this is not at all how it works. But many, many people believe it is, and wonder what the heck they're doing wrong. So what if I told you the connection to your ideal role isn't buried somewhere on the internet waiting for you to put in the magical keyword spell or take the right assessment or anything else? But what if instead, it was much, much closer than that. Maybe it was through a past-coworker, a fellow parent, or your kid's sports league, or maybe even your neighbor.

Travis Van Oosbree 01:41

I started asking everyone, "Hey, do you know anyone that works in the toys and games industry?" I asked our across-the-street neighbors, they came over and our kids played, and that's when she said, "Well, I know someone who works in the playground industry. Is that toys and games?" And I said, "yeah, absolutely. Sure."

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:00

That's Travis Van Oosbree. Travis had worked in construction trades, specifically in custom cabinets, for most of his career. And he kept finding himself in the same cycle– he would get bored, feel stuck, find a new job, get excited about it, and then rinse and repeat. Even after going back to school in transitioning into project management, he still felt like he just couldn't escape the cabinetry world. After five jobs in six years, he knew he needed out. He was uncertain about what he wanted to do next, but was certain that he was done with cabinetry. So we got to meet him when he reached out to us for guidance. In our conversation, you'll hear how a breakthrough with our team really propelled him into action. But here's what I want you to pay attention to, his willingness to connect with anyone and everyone he came across, he's gonna walk us through the connections that he made and the conversations he had in detail in what he said, how he connected, how he followed up. These details will be very helpful in explaining how you can leverage your network to uncover your next role. All right, here's Travis taking us back to where his career in cabinetry began.

Travis Van Oosbree 03:14

My dad was a general contractor, and so I grew up with a wood shop in the garage. It was always assumed that if, you you know, the bed frames I slept on as a kid, my dad made. The dressers my dad made. It was just kind of like that was the household we grew up in. And, you know, Lego family, Lincoln Logs, those were the toys. And I was really into theater as a kid. When I was in high school, I wanted to be on Broadway, and then when I realized it wasn't a very good actor, I decided that I would get into like technical theater. So that was actually my very first major. When I went to Portland State was I was a technical theater major, and I thought I would be a set designer and a set builder. So after I dropped out and came back home, I was doing community theater. I was trying to get, like an internship as a set builder, set designer, just get into that world. And someone suggested that I take a two semester certificate course at the community college for furniture making and cabinet making as like a way to say, "Look, I'm comfortable with a table saw. I can use hand tools. I know how to read drawings." And in the course of that year, that it took to get that certificate, I realized there was a much more stable career, let's say, in custom cabinets than there was working stipend to stipend in community theater. So that was 2010 which was also right after the recession. So I went to a lot of cabinet shops, and just said, "Hey, I'm totally green. Bring me on as an apprentice." And they said, "We are not hiring right now." I was getting my hair cut, and I told the barber, "You know, I have this, but no one's hiring." And he said, "Oh, my old childhood friend has a cabinet shop. Why don't I connect you with him?" And so that was how I got my first job in cabinets. I wasn't there very long, but it let me apply to a job with Berkeley Mills, which is a really high end Custom Shop. They do furniture, they do cabinets, they've got a great reputation in the Bay Area for being like the best wood workshop in the area. And I got in there when I was 20 years old. And really, that's where I cut my teeth, that's where I got all my experience. I worked in pretty much every department, from finishing to installation to assembly, did furniture. I did cabinets. And it like really scratched that itch of blending the building of my dad's general contracting and like the art of theater, because it was very much craft centric and not as much manufacturing. It wasn't stamp out these cabinets as fast as possible. It was like, make something that's museum quality. And that really imprinted on me, and it made, first of all, it's hard for them to have enough money to pay their employees what they deserved because the profit margin was so slim, because the time took so long, and the materials were so expensive. So I bounced around in the cabinet industry, going from shop to shop, and no one else had that same touch of craftsmanship over production. Once I realized the fun of working in a wood shop was work, I said, "Okay, well, maybe if I got an office job, then I could have a hobby of woodworking in my free time." So I did night school, I transferred to a four-year university. Then right after I finished my coursework, and called up the cabinet shops that I knew, and I said, "Do you need a project manager?" And they said, yes. So I took the first job that was offered to me as a project manager for the company is called molar nickels, and I worked in their cabinet shop, but they also had a general contracting division, and so I was project managing for their general contractor. So residential remodel work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:43

So what prompted you to realize that you needed a larger career change in one way or another, or that that was going to be the right thing for you?

Travis Van Oosbree 07:54

So when I first started that, I'm not going to be able to be a cabinet maker. I was like, 25 and I was like, "I cannot do this for 40 years." I feel like I've reached the pinnacle of my development. Like, yes, I could always become a more skilled cabinet maker. But, you know, I had grown kind of exponentially. And then I was looking at the horizon, and it was a long, flat path. And so I just didn't know how to... I didn't know how to articulate transferable skills. I don't know what to type into Indeed to search for something that I'm qualified for that has a different job title because Indeed is going to look at my resume and churn out 100 jobs that I'm already doing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:49

Yeah. "Here you go. You've been in custom cabinets. Here are 47 more jobs that are exactly what you want to try to move away from." So, what I'm really curious about for you as you began to go through an intentional career change process here, which was, I think you've had a number of really great situations. And as you said, you've felt like, serendipitously, many things have worked out for you at different periods of time in your career in really weird and wonderful ways. Also at the same time, it sounded like you had been unhappy with it for a period of time. And I think as you got into working and trying to define what extraordinary looked like for you, I know you and your coach had a pretty cool breakthrough on your ideal career profile, and I'm wondering if you would be willing to share that story and and share a little bit about how you pinpointed what you wanted to go after, as far as organizations or roles.

Travis Van Oosbree 09:55

Yeah. So we had done the first couple of modules where I had defined my, you know, gotten my signature strengths, and I had kind of defined what my ideal workday would be like. And those first things where you're kind of writing down, "what do I want?" And then it was like, "okay, well, now what do I do with this?" And I didn't know who... I had identified that the Social Goldilocks was going to be the best way for me to do the career experiments.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:29

Yeah, and for everybody's information. So the Social Goldilocks is where, much like the Goldilocks story, where it's like, this chair is too small, this chair is too big, this chair is just right. Being able to go through and have a large amount of conversations relatively quickly to get lots of feedback about what falls into that just right category and what's not. So a little bit of context there. So as you were going into that, tell me more.

Travis Van Oosbree 10:57

So I was talking to Amy, and I was thinking, "Where do I start? Who do I ask? How do I break down that first barrier of what direction do I go in?" And she kind of asked me, "Okay, hypothetical here, money is of no consequence. You have your whole day to yourself. What would you do if you could do anything?" And I thought about it, and I said, "You know, I would, I'd probably spend more time playing with my daughter. I would, oh, I'd play more softball. I'd join a couple more softball leagues. Oh, I'd play some golf during the week. I would, you know what, I've been meaning to play that new Zelda game. I would love to play. Have more time to play video games." And she was like, "Okay, Travis, you just said play about five times in 15 seconds, so let's focus on play." And I was like, "Oh, okay, yeah." She said, "Have you thought about the toy industry? The games industry?" And that really was it. That was where I thought, "Okay, I don't know who's going to pay me to play, but let me get on LinkedIn and see who I know who might have a second connection at Hasbro or Wizards of the Coast." And that was really it. That started the snowball rolling down the hill and ended with me working for a playground company. Really, really, pretty fantastic.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:31

Which is phenomenal. And we're going to break down a little bit here in a minute more of how that happened. What I think is really powerful in what you just described, though, is a lot of the times there's, well, I mean, if you Google on the internet, there's all kinds of questions out there all over the place about, "what would you do if you could do things for free?", which is a great question. It's a great place to start, but it's usually several layers deeper, only with being able to observe those patterns, those behavioral patterns as well as tendencies, as well as your preferences and desires, that you can begin to start to figure out what's the gold there, what are the situations? And what I heard you say is that at the work that we were doing, you and Amy, in this particular case, were looking at and noticing that play comes up over and over and over again. And that was the kernel, right?

Travis Van Oosbree 13:27

Yeah. But what's really interesting is there was, I don't remember if it was in the figure it out course, or early in module one. There was a question about a list of three careers that you could do if it was a total fantasy, you shouldn't need any experience. And I put down, I would be a sheep farmer, or maybe I would be a professional entertainer, a singer or a YouTuber or a television personality. None of those had played, and that was me sitting in my office alone trying to brainstorm three things that I think would be fun. But it wasn't until I had the other person in the room with me, kind of,as a soundboard to get me to be a little bit more candid or a little less in my own head about it. You know? It's just like, here's a question, answer it. I didn't have time to sit there and brainstorm or write down some ideas and scratch them out. It's just like, "Oh, you know what? I play with my daughter more if I had more time." Like, absolutely. She's like, "Okay, well, let's find a way where you can have a career playing with your daughter."

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:43

Yeah, it's really interesting the point you bring up. Because, in many ways, the way that our brains work as humans, it's almost impossible to do this alone. It's not impossible, but it's very, very difficult too. And so it's, like you mentioned, softball earlier, if you were going to go out and do batting practice, yes, you can do that with a pitching machine, that is a possibility, but you get the best practice with a live, other human pitching the ball to you.

Travis Van Oosbree 15:10

Definitely a whole lot more fun.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:11

Yeah, and it's way, way more fun. So that, I think that there's a lot of parallels there where having another person teeing it up for you in a variety of different ways, literally and metaphorically, then that just creates this level of effectiveness that's really hard to replicate. I love that point. So let me ask you another thing about that too, then. You know, when you figured out this idea of play, it seemed like at that point in time, you were talking to quite a few different people at a number of different organizations. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Let's get into the details there. How did you go about making those connections? Maybe give us a couple examples of what worked and what didn't work as well for you.

Travis Van Oosbree 16:02

So that was really a case of rip the band aid off, get outside your comfort zone, and then you quickly realize that your comfort zone has just expanded. So the first couple of emails I sent out were very awkward, and I was very uncomfortable sending it and asking. I went on LinkedIn, I looked at Mattel and Hasbro, and I saw that Noel was a connection with, my friend, Will. So I text messaged, my friend, Will. I said, "Hey, would you be comfortable introducing me to her? I have a template if you want to just, you know, I'll send you the template, and you just say, "Hey, I'm connecting with, my friend, Travis."" And he said, "Yeah, sure." No skin off my nose. Worst thing that can happen is that your situation doesn't change, and you're exactly where you started. So, yeah, I talked to Noel for 20 minutes, and, you know, I ended every conversation with, you know, "is there anyone else I should talk to?" And she said, "Let me think about it." And I never heard back from her. You know. And it's kind of like, "Okay, well, on to the next one, I guess." And I just, it was the first attempt. I started asking everyone, "Hey, do you know anyone that works in the toys and games industry?" I asked our across the street neighbors, they came over and our kids played, and that's when she said, "Well, I know someone who works in the playground industry. Is that toys and games?" And I said, "Yeah, absolutely. Sure. Like, connect me with them. I'll see if I can find a link there." So that's what it eventually led to me getting my current role, was this connection from the across the street neighbor. But that took seven months to come to fruition. And meanwhile, I just started going back and thinking, okay, I got back into that loop of, "Okay, well, now what job title do I type in to Indeed to see if Hasbro is hiring for a blank?" I like advertising a lot. I've always been, like, a really critical eye for commercials and billboards and I like the idea of put this package together to get the most people to look at it. And so then I changed my LinkedIn search to "who am I connected to that works in marketing?" Let's just see. I don't know what I would do, but maybe I can narrow down the field like I did between the two toy companies. So one of my wife's longtime friends is a freelance marketer. And I said, "Hey, Tracy. I'm doing this career change. Can you... Do you have 15 minutes just to give me, like, marketing 101? Is this something I should pursue, or do I put it in the round file and move on to the next one?" And so I took 30 minutes with Tracy, and she said, "Okay, you could be... There's email marketing specialists." She listed off six or seven different branches of marketing. And I was kind of like, you know, I really... none of that sounds, you know, SEO, search engine optimization, on your website. That doesn't real. That's not the kind of marketing that I thought I would be interested in. And then she said, "Well, there's product marketing managers that kind of are the go-between to the sales and the marketing and the consumer, and they kind of just make sure that everyone's on the same page. And you know, you're the advocate for the end user, and you're the advocate for the sales to make sure that marketing is getting them the material that they need to provide the end user with what they want." And I thought, "Well, that sounds right up my alley. That's very much project management. That sounds very social, interdepartment, learn a little bit about sales, learn a little bit about the client, learn a little bit about marketing, and be kind of this information hub." And that was the next little snowball that I needed to start rolling down the hill.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:21

That's cool. So what happened from there?

Travis Van Oosbree 20:24

So from there, I was looking at product marketing. I was looking at toys, games, playgrounds. I signed up for... there's a product marketing Alliance, which is a, I don't even know how I would define it, a resource for product marketers where they can have social events, they can do learning. And I did, it was like $100 digital course on introduction to product marketing. And I did that, and now that's on my LinkedIn to say, "I'm interested in Product Marketing." I know my resume doesn't look like I have any experience in this, but you can tell that I'm interested because I've paid money to get a certificate that says I'm interested. And through just constant conversations, I would talk to... One funny story is a friend of my brothers. I talked to Ezra, who's a freelance copywriter, and he said, "You know what? That sounds you search for a fun job in the play industry. Why don't you talk to my dad? My dad was a very early video game engineer and has made a career." So I went from talking to my brother's friend, to Ezra's Dad, and Ezra's dad said, "Oh, well, talk to my wife." Okay, so I talked to Mrs. Fox, and it was these really weird connections where I would never think that I should be having a conversation with my brother, whose friend's parents about my career change, but through them, I got connected with a guy who does toys in Redwood City. And through him, I got to a woman who does the play testing for EA games. And oh, I think that right there is the link between the two paths of play and Product Marketing where as I started to go down that product marketing path, I realized the triangle between end-users, sales and marketing. I was most interested in the end-user. And most interested in researching, "what does the user want?" I really like the idea of market research, play testing, observing people using the product and getting their responses. And so that was really... I connected with a woman who does that at Hasbro. Hasbro has their own play lab, but it turns out, it's in Rhode Island. And if I wanted to work for Hasbro to play lab, we would move to Rhode Island. And that's just not an option for us where we're at.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:20

Yeah, not on your ideal career profile. That's a deal.

Travis Van Oosbree 23:25

Exactly. So then I thought, "Okay, well, there's lots of video games in the Bay Area." I got connected with this woman who does the play testing for EA and, you know, I just kind of, that was a really interesting, exciting part for me. And that was a lot of my... when I was talking to these researchers was, what... if I were to take an online course at Coursera or something, what should I be looking at in order to just have something on my resume that says I want to work in user research?

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:02

So you're trying to figure out, at that point, what would it take to develop a minimum level experience in order to move that direction, if you wanted to. Is that right?

Travis Van Oosbree 24:11

Exactly. Yes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:12

Very cool. Okay, so I want to pull you back over to another topic here. You did this really wonderful job, if we were just trying to summarize here, you did a great job identifying what could potentially fit. Did a great job of exploring that and beginning to get feedback, and then utilizing that feedback to go and dive deeper after you were getting, say, for example, you know the indications that, "Hey, I really might be interested in a toy company, like, Hasbro or Mattel. How do I dive deeper into that?" And then utilizing that next set of feedback to be able to make additional decisions and then dive deeper over and over again, to the point where you had this really very good set of definitions around a lot of different areas about what you wanted, not just for the organization, but also started figuring out, how do I test these different roles or opportunities as well? And so here's what I am curious about. Let's jump ahead for just a moment and say, okay, you've accepted this new offer. When you think back now to your ideal career profile, what fits on that? What are the areas where you're like, "Oh yeah, this totally checks some of the boxes that I discovered that I actually want in one way or another."?

Travis Van Oosbree 25:43

Yeah. So I went through and I looked at the offer, and I filtered it through the ICP, and it met the minimums for everything except for income, and that was a really hard thing to come to terms with. Because all of the personal, all of the, you know that I work from home, so my commute, my minimum was less than an hour commute. Well now, I dropped my daughter off at daycare, I come back home and I get on my computer. That's my commute. Under helping others, I said, "I want to be face to face with the people I'm helping, and I must be a source of expertise that people turn to for help." So as a project manager for a playground company that I manage the installation, I'm in the field, I'm seeing not only the contractors that we work with, I go out tomorrow, I'm going to go out to San Francisco and I'm going to fix a little playground that's already been installed. There's going to be kids on it, playing, swinging, laughing while I'm out there like that. Doesn't get more face to face with the people I'm helping than the children who use this playground equipment every day. And so we went through and it was just like some of them met my ideals. Again, the commute for my ideal would be 5 to 20 minutes. Again, like right there, engaging work. Work doesn't feel like work, but instead feels like play. I think that going and climbing on a playground to replace a couple of nuts and washers is pretty great. You know, supportive co-worker and boss, everything was fought on, except the pay. And that was really hard to come around to. You know, their American headquarters is in Austin, and I'm in the Bay Area California, and the cost of living is something like 165% of the cost of living in Austin. It's like considerably gas, housing, food, everything costs more out here. And so when I told them my salary expectations, they're like, "Whoa, we are miles apart." So that was a really awkward, uncomfortable conversation. I had never negotiated a salary before, and I was able to get to a point where they said, "This is absolutely the maximum that we can afford to pay you." And what it ended up being was electoral move from my previous position. It wasn't a pay increase, and it didn't quite meet what my wife and I said were going to be our budgetary requirements, our necessities. But the way I was able to kind of wrap my head around it was, I said, "If this meets all of these other criteria, it will lighten my emotional load and free me up to do kind of those side projects that I've always said I just don't have the time or energy to do, to make you a picture frame that I could then ask someone for $100 for." Or I've always had this idea of having a podcast or having a YouTube channel. Now I might have the energy and the time to say, "You know what, I don't need to. I'm not so exhausted that I need to go to bed at nine o'clock. I'll stay up and I'll edit that video of me on the golf course, or whatever it is, and put it on YouTube." Like I've got kind of more drive to do those side projects.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:40

So for you, let me make sure that I understand. So for you, you were saying, "Okay, look, I still want to make this amount of income." And it sounds like part of what you were realizing, if I'm understanding correctly, is that there might be multiple ways to do this: taking the new income, which was a, you know, lateral adjustment, it sounds like, so same as what you were making before, which is good, but it's not what you wanted. It's not what you wanted. So then you're saying, "Okay, well, how do I, with my total career if we're looking at that holistically, look at how to supplement that to get that up to what I want?" Is that what you're...?

Travis Van Oosbree 30:23

Exactly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:24

That's awesome.

Travis Van Oosbree 30:24

Exactly. The ideal career profile is more a definition of my life than a definition of my job description. But the other thing it has is it's a big enough organization where I feel like there's room to grow. I still think that maybe I can... I've already reached out to the marketing department and said, "you know, like I'd be..." they have their own research team that researches play in children and how they interact with their equipment, and how they can better design their equipment to meet children's developmental needs. And so maybe they need a product marketing manager. It's not currently a role that they have, but I figure let me start doing some of that work, and in a little while I can say, "hey, look, you know, I've kind of, I've gotten to the point where I'm bored with my current job, and I've been taking on some of these product marketing ideas, maybe I could transition within the company to turn the horse into a unicorn."

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:29

Well, and I think that that is, I mean, that's something that when you have gone through the collective set of experiences that you've now gone through, then it puts you in a different position to be able to continue to negotiate. And, I mean, you know, we're here as a continuous career partner for anything that you need, but that's... I would encourage you to keep going that direction because I think that you had that conversation, you did a great job negotiation, you got them to move, you got them to their absolute maximum, which is great. Now it's the point of saying, "Okay, do I supplement my income through someplace else, or do I continue to find ways where you can add real value to the organization so that you can raise that income in one way or another, or both, potentially?"

Travis Van Oosbree 32:22

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm still a member of the product marketing Alliance. I'm still getting their emails, and they have a meet up next Friday where we just go out and get drinks with other product marketers in the area, and I'll just continue to keep an eye on that path, keep one eye, look in that direction, build some skills in the background. Oh, I should also mention, as part of my negotiation, I said, "It won't show up on my salary. But would you pay for some... would you pay for me to get my project manager professional certificate (PMP certificate)?" And they said, "Yeah, okay, I think we can swing that." And that was just, like, okay, so that doesn't show up on my paycheck, but it is an expense that they will shoulder that I don't, and that I carry with me. So there's a lot of ways to kind of just continue to shape and mold the opportunity into, you know, some...

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:30

Travis, when you were back 7, 8, 9 months ago here, did you think this type of opportunity was possible in this way for you? What were your thoughts at that one time? I'm just... I'm so curious with how you were looking at it.

Travis Van Oosbree 33:45

I did. I did drink the cool, the HTYC Kool Aid, and I believed that a better career was possible. I remember talking to my brother and my mom who were both very skeptical about the idea of a unicorn role. They're like, "Every job has its drawbacks. Every job has a thing where you're not going to like it. Every job... So I don't want you to get your hopes up and get really disappointed when you're not able to find." And I was, like, "No, no, no. You have to believe that it's out there", or else you kind of stop fighting for yourself. You kind of resign yourself to, "I guess this is as good as it gets."

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:29

Which is very unsettling, right?

Travis Van Oosbree 34:31

Exactly. And so I was a real... I was in. I had to believe that it was out there, or else I was just going to stay exactly where I had been for the last 10 years.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:46

Well, I think you've done a really great job creating this opportunity for yourself, which then allows you to be able to pivot in many different directions. I think that's the coolest thing as I think about your story as a whole, and looking at all this work that you've done through your career change. I think that's maybe the coolest element here, from my perspective, is now you have this situation in which you could go a lot of different directions, all which are in potential alignment with, not just your minimums, but also your ideals. And I think that's pretty amazing. It takes a lot of work to be able to get to that point. That's really cool.

Travis Van Oosbree 35:29

Yeah, I'm excited. I love to... The thing about the social Goldilocks was, it was, it just opened a lot of doors, and you didn't have to necessarily walk through every door, but they're open now, and I can turn and go into another one at some point if I choose.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:48

How did you... What advice would you give to somebody who is in your shoes where you were at maybe a year ago where you know that you need to make a change and you're trying to figure out how to navigate through that. What advice would you give to that person?

Travis Van Oosbree 36:04

I would probably just be the... not sure how I want to word it. Not making a change doesn't change anything. Do something, because the worst that can happen is that nothing changes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:21

Are you saying that waiting and seeing rarely works out or whatever?

Travis Van Oosbree 36:28

Don't be afraid to just make that really awkward connection because if you don't, you're right where you are, and if you do, you know maybe after that conversation, you'll still be right where you are, but maybe you'll be somewhere further along in the road.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:51

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:43

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 37:49

I finally realized that it's okay to not settle. And it's funny, because I feel like I haven't settled in any other area of my life. And so why would I do so professionally?

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:02

Okay, what happens when you went through school, and then college, and then you sort of always knew what the next step would be? But now you're at a point in your career when you can't see the next step anymore, and it turns into a special kind of torture. It can seem like a trivial thing, but it's actually a very real and jarring experience when you're used to knowing what is coming for you, what is the next step, and always being able to imagine your future, turns out it's now up to you to figure out what to do next. But luckily, you're listening to the perfect podcast to help you figure that out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:38

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep and you get it automatically. Even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week, adios. I'm out.