491: How To Find The Right People To Network With When Changing Careers

Talking to the right people can help you gauge if you’re on the right track professionally and make connections that advance your career search, but how do you figure out who those right people are?



Phillip Migyanko & Liz McLean, Career Coaches

on this episode

Landing your ideal career in today’s world often hinges on building, maintaining, and utilizing your professional network. But building a network can be difficult, especially when you’re attempting to change careers.

We’ve talked a lot on the podcast about the importance of reach outs and building relationships, but the part we haven’t talked too much about is how to find people to reach out to and build relationships with. Specifically, how do you figure out who the right people are for your situation?

On this episode, career coaches, Phillip & Liz, give expert insight on how to do what we like to call “reachouts” and build solid relationships that will enhance your career search. They both give examples of clients who have been successful with reachouts and discuss specific tactics you can use to build your reach-out list.

What you’ll learn

  • How to figure out who to reach out to for your specific career change situation
  • How to narrow down your pool of prospects when networking
  • The importance of being authentic when building professional relationships
  • How to find out where your target industry spends their time

Phillip Migyanko 00:01

Who is in your network right now who is one step closer to where you want to be?

Introduction 00:14

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:39

Finding your ideal career in today's world often hinges on building, maintaining and utilizing your professional network. Now, that seems like a pretty huge task. And honestly, it can be. There's no build relationships in the network quick tool that can be used to hack the system. It takes a lot of self reflection, persistence and authenticity. In today's episode, we're going to dig into a few questions that we get all the time about building relationships and networks which can include– how do I find people to reach out to and build relationships with and how do I even figure out who those right people are.

Phillip Migyanko 01:18

When you get to the stage where you're having to start essentially building your list of people that you're eventually going to need to talk to, who do you actually want to talk to and how specific can you get? So it actually comes from a spot of curiosity.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:33

Today, I'm not going to be your host. But I am leaving you in great hands. You'll be with Phillip, who has been our past Director of Client Results. And he's actually taking over as host today, and he's joined by Career Coach, Liz McLean. They both walked hundreds of people through a career change process. And one of the most important parts of that process is building your relationships inside your network. They're here to give expert insight on how to do what we like to call reach out and build solid relationships that will enhance your career search. They both give specific examples of their clients who have been successful with reach outs, including the tactics they used, as well as some tactics to avoid. Here's Phillip kicking off the conversation.

Phillip Migyanko 02:16

We've talked a lot on the podcast about the importance of reach outs and just basically building relationships. But the part we haven't talked too much about is, how do you find people to reach out to and then begin building relationships with them? And this is just conversations we have all the time. And essentially, how do you figure out who the right people are in your specific situation? So I guess, I'm curious for you, is because I've got some thoughts here, too. What makes, kind of, this the best next step for people? Like how do people get really good at finding the right people to reach out to or the best people reach out to?

Liz McLean 02:55

Yeah, and I feel like if we say that "best people to reach out to" that feels like a lot of pressure.

Phillip Migyanko 03:01

It does a lot of pressure, guys.

Liz McLean 03:04

No, I just directionally appropriate. But to say you have to have some kind of lens or framework to narrow through, right. And that's what we do with the first part of this process, Phillip. So we get people closer to defining what they want. And then they talk with people. And that becomes more exact through conversations that you got to have something to go off of in answering, "what do I want question". And typically, what I've found and working and doing this through the years, something like project management isn't enough. So we can, I mean, talk to me about what your thoughts are on that.

Phillip Migyanko 03:44

Well, I mean, I think that's a really good idea in there, right? Where, so given the example of project management. So what happens for lots of people when we get to this stage, so we'll get done with their strengths, we'll get done with their ideal career profile, and they go "Great! Who do I talk to next?" And then they get some generic title, like project management or something where it's just too big, and we haven't narrowed it down enough. And so then I kind of always go, "Well, who's the next person that you want to talk to?" Like, let's think about the next step. Or let's think about people in the whole umbrella space and get really specific on, well, what, you know, what level are they at? What industry are they in? What kind of focus do they have? What kind of mix of all those things? And it's not necessarily meant to overwhelm, but it's more meant to go, "Alright. When you get to the stage where you're having to start, essentially, building your list of people that you're eventually going to need to talk to, who do you actually want to talk to, and how specific can you get?" So it actually comes from a spot of curiosity, and not to overuse this word because it's being overused quite a bit is, authenticity.

Liz McLean 04:55

I knew that was the word you're gonna say.

Phillip Migyanko 04:57

I know. I don't mean to put it out. But authenticity, meaning that, when you actually get... because you're gonna have to get in a conversation with these people, like our clients, we have to prepare them. And if you aren't actually wanting to get in a conversation with them to get to know about what they do, instead of what they can do for you, like most the time people go, "Oh, I'm gonna get on conversation." They're gonna go, "Oh my gosh! Liz, you're absolutely amazing. Here's the perfect job I just made for you up on the spot, blah, blah, blah, blah," and people go into the wrong way. So you have to go back before that and start to get kind of nitty gritty. And if you have a lot of trouble in there, then usually we tell people, "Let's just get really specific on who you're curious about", or sometimes even using warm contacts, meaning do you know that could be those other people.

Liz McLean 05:43

Yeah, I just wanted to add to that, Philip. I think that you said, coming up with those parameters or those filters to be like, "what size?" and you said, it can be overwhelming. I think it's making some decisions. And not to say that it can't change in the future. And I think what becomes more overwhelming is that when you then go to LinkedIn.

Phillip Migyanko 06:04

Oh my gosh, I'm nodding my head over here.

Liz McLean 06:06

If you haven't pre-decided for yourself, that's not gonna go well. And that overwhelm is even worse, getting on LinkedIn and not having those coming up with the authenticity or, like, what you really care about, what your personal filters are before you even get on that tool?

Phillip Migyanko 06:27

Yeah. And then, if people are often having trouble there, I then think about, like, who is currently in your network right now, who is one step closer to where you want to be? Or thinking about it as, who's a connection of a connection? Who is that next person where you want to be? So if it's like the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon kind of thing, right? Someone you know that you can get closer to that's kind of the same exact person or kind of three or four steps ahead of you, that you can know. And essentially, then you're creating the conversation in a way that can allow you to go, "Okay, so if this person is at the next stage of this next step where I want to be at, then I can think about how I reverse engineer that to where I want to be. And now, like, and before we hit record, I was saying, "Hey, I think sometimes what people accidentally do here is they will aim too big, where if they want to be a basketball player they go and they try to reach out to LeBron James first, and then they go, "Uh! LeBron James didn't respond back to my email after I sent him one email then one follow up. Oh, this is horrible." And Liz, you disagreed with.

Liz McLean 07:38

Oh, yeah, I jumped right in on that one. Because well, I'm like, alright, if you were my client Phillip, I'd be like, "All right, that's a poor sample size. That's one person. And if you want to go big and go LeBron James, like, go for it. Just know that you're playing the long game in that. You better have other people on your list while you're at it that are easier to get the meeting with." You can get a meeting with Lebron James, he's a person who takes meetings. Are you going to get it from your, like, LinkedIn request? No. Are you going to get it from one request? No. So over time, I mean, it might take you a year of really strategic efforts to have conversations with the other basketball players in the meantime. I'm not saying don't try to talk to Lebron James. Go ahead.

Phillip Migyanko 08:23

So I take that. Now you say it that way, I agree. Which is, keep going for those big people. But also like, at the same time, this process is built through lots of conversations over time, and there are different strategies for each person. So I guess I'm kind of curious, because I know this is stuff we talk about a lot– when people start to build, essentially, their roles list, their companies list, their contact list, there's definitely wrong ways to do that. And we've seen that time and time again. And then there's better ways to do that. I'm not gonna say right ways, because I think there's... it depends on every individual where they're going for. But there's definitely better ways to do that. Kind of starting with the not as great ways first. So do you have examples lists of clients or a client who, kind of, approaches it not the best way?

Liz McLean 09:16

Yeah, maybe a less effective way.

Phillip Migyanko 09:18

Yeah, that's a better way. I like that.

Liz McLean 09:20

I would say, it's people that come at it. And we've already touched on this, too general, right. And they haven't narrowed enough and they maybe go to, "Well, these are some of the best I hear. I've heard that these are the best companies to work for." Like coming at it from a source outside of them and what they really want, what they've identified in their ICP as their values to be like, "well, I should go talk to this person here" versus, what you said earlier, "I really want to talk to this person. This person looks really cool. Like I just would love to hear about their experience doing X." So that's part of it. The other thing I would say, another example, I just want to use Lebron James' example. If you want to talk to LeBron James, because you legitimately want to know something about LeBron James, that specifically that he's done, great. If you just want to talk to him about ego and the fact that he's LeBron James, less effective way to go about it.

Phillip Migyanko 10:23

Well, yeah, I mean, I think it goes back to one of the things that when people begin to start building their comfy list, what they don't think about, or what they'll accidentally do a lot is they'll kind of just check the box off, kind of go, "all right, I just built a list of people who were at the best places to work in [insert city]", or they'll like, they'll put Google, Amazon, Meta, these giant companies like, well, this is where everybody wants, everyone wants to go and just want to talk to people always there. And there's no compelling reason, kind of, behind it. And the reason why this matters, and this is what Liz and I find time and time again, is that we live in a world now that's different than, kind of, pre-COVID. But it's been changing even more so, which is, people are hip to this game of this cold reach out email strategy. And what I mean by that is everyone's kind of doing this now. And I don't know when the last time you've been on LinkedIn, or any of our listeners have been on LinkedIn, or things like that, but I get spam messages all the time. And they all sound the same, which is, "Oh my gosh! I just happened to find your profile when I was randomly searching on LinkedIn, and I was quite impressed with your background. And because of this reason, this reason and would you have a quick 15 minutes to chat?" And it's just like, oh my god, it goes back to the point what you're saying before were people miss the point of like, how to find people that you actually want to reach out to, which is, the thing that they do wrong is that they just do like a general search, and they just go general, and then they get general or subpar results back. And so really...

Liz McLean 12:07

But where they think they should go versus like, "hey, did you just forget all that stuff we just did on your ICP", right? How does this line up with all this stuff we identified for you? You still forget when you get to that stage. I don't know why, but yeah.

Phillip Migyanko 12:24

The more important piece here is, there is a lot of things out there that just spam people's inbox. And so everything just becomes really, really generic. So what happens again, yeah, people go at this in a general generic way, where they don't really have a compelling reasons of who they want to reach out to, and why they want to reach out and then the message gets lost, and essentially all the other spam that's being sent by robots, or by actually other people that are sending general messages.

Liz McLean 12:56

I had someone the other day, well, actually, no, she kept... I think I need to block her, but she keeps spamming me. And then now I think she's got it, like, just five minutes. Like she's trying to get my business. And she's like, "Let's get on a call for five minutes." I'm like, "What the fork can we do in five minutes? Nothing. Go away."

Phillip Migyanko 13:16

That's exactly right. People just generally use a general template. And then they just reach out to general people. So the issue that most people get to is they just... they're being too generic, and they're not really getting to what they're needing to get to. And so for people who are very specific and get really great results, I know you've got some examples, I do too, where essentially, they will kind of, I'll say it this way, they ditch the less professional way to go about it. So what I mean by that, they essentially ditch the template and they use the bones of it, right? They use the, "Hey, let's make sure we get time. Hey, here's the thing interesting about you. Hey, here's my ask." But generally, they ditch the template and how they find those people is, again, they go back to who they're curious about. But really, more importantly, is they're being very intentional about how they found them. So I have a client who... it was really interesting. So she's in the process of trying to find different roles right now. And she just happened to be on one of these people's emails list. And she's just was like, "Oh, they might be great." And then we've been doing a strategy to reach out to them and talk to them via Instagram, because lots of people's email inboxes are overflowing like we mentioned on their LinkedIn, they're getting spammed by lots of people. And so we're just like, trying to interact in a whole different way over Instagram, because it feels more genuine but essentially, that's where the people that she's wanting to serve or work with are. So getting really ultra specific on all right, who are the people that you actually want to talk to and where do they live on the internet or what's the best way to be able to go and find those people.

Liz McLean 15:04

Yeah, I love that. I was just... you said the words that I was thinking, where do they live, right? Where do they have conversations? And really, we do need to see it, even though you have never, you know, it's the first initial message, you do almost need to envision it as a conversation, even though they're not talking to you yet. And where they live, and some of those other spaces, you can show up a little bit more creatively, you can have more fun with it than what LinkedIn lends to. I know, Phillip, you've done that.

Phillip Migyanko 15:35

Yeah. Well, it is further emphasized because it's how you find them. So if you just find them randomly on LinkedIn, which doesn't always... It actually works sometimes. I find out, I get better results, or my clients get better results when the person is active on LinkedIn. And when they usually have, sometimes their email address in their LinkedIn profile, because they're indicating they want to be contacted. But there's clients who will, again, find people from their email lists and as we've looked at specific associations, and then they'll reach out to people that way, but going on in a much more creative way of, how are you intentionally finding the people makes all the difference? I think in the world, I think you got a client with that.

Liz McLean 16:26

Yeah, no, I mean, I love those. The other thing I'd say about LinkedIn is, you know, using it to find groups, finding active groups that are actually having a conversation about the topic you want to be a part of, again, like, going back to what do you care about? Joining the conversation there, and then trying to generate some meanings or conversations based on that in that group, and that interest area versus a general area. Yes. And we love the associations, particularly because their charter a lot of times is to help further the field and educate others on what the role is actually about. So you can generally get they want to be of service in that way. Other creative ways I told you the story recently, Phillip, I had a client who were talking about talent mobility, and I said, "Hey", I say this for anything really, but particularly this area, because that's one of those words that a lot of people use, but the people that truly believe in, the tenants and how you do it, "right", I guess it gets sorted out. And it's like, is it practice actually being done? So this client, really, I said, "Go find the subject matter experts." And that might be at a B school, like, the people that really are gonna get on their soapbox on how you do this, and how you don't do this. People that are putting out content in these areas, usually willing to engage. Who's, I think I use the shorthand recently with a client to be like, who wants to geek out about this with you?

Phillip Migyanko 18:01

I love that question.

Liz McLean 18:03

And so it's finding them to get particularly in the beginning stages of that learning, because you can show up and say, "Hey, this is why I'm interested in this. This is what I'm about. Where would you have me go? Who would you have me talk to? What companies are getting this, well, like we're talking about with "talent mobility", what companies are really doing it and getting it right?" And then they will probably know the answers to those questions.

Phillip Migyanko 18:27

So there's a couple things that you did in there that people might not notice. So a bunch of things you did in there. So first thing was that, so this is what we often talk to a lot of our clients about, which is, okay, the people that you're looking to reach out to are generally the subjects are interested in, more specifically, are interested in the things you are, so they are more likely creating content. So essentially, you need to find those one avenue to begin to find people to reach out to is finding those content creators. So you might have heard of Vicki on this podcast, she did that very same thing. She was really interested in the Treasury. And so we found a very specific Treasury podcast, where they brought in VPs. And then we had a whole strategy of reaching out to VPs there. But spoiler alert, everybody in their brother is creating content out there, no matter the space, like, I legit had a client... I tell the story all the time to my clients. But I had a client who was interviewing for a company in Dallas, they were a company that essentially took off when they have these 3D printing machines, they have all this excess junk on there. And that, which sounds like a very boring company, and I would never probably talk to them. But the more important piece is that company had a podcast, I was like, "Oh my gosh, if they got a podcast, they all have podcasts." Then I was like, "Oh my god, if this boring plays out in podcasts, then the more interesting you're getting at." Sorry, I don't mean to offend.

Liz McLean 19:56

No you're not. You're not sorry.

Phillip Migyanko 19:58

It's really be boring. I also beat up on pool filters a lot. That's usually my boring sample. Pool filters must be really boring. But sorry, if you're into pool filters, but anyways. So for the kinds of things you're doing, there's finding people who are geeking out about the same things that you're geeking out about. But then you're not necessarily then approaching them about, "Hey, can I get a job? Can you give me a job here, these things like that?" The way you're approaching it is what we're kind of mentioning earlier on in the podcast, which is, "Hey, I'm really interested in this, let's geek out about this idea. These are the things I'm struggling with. How can you help me? Or what would it look like, give me your perspective, to get to this next step, or this perceived next step that I have?" So it changes the conversation, essentially changes your approach. And that then changes who you reach out to, and how you find people to reach out to. Because it's not about, well, what are, again, what are the best companies to work for? And what's this company over here? It comes from a spot where this is something I'm actually interested in from either the subject, the mission, who you're doing it with, all those things, and that changes the game entirely. Because it becomes not just this fixed end, it becomes an infinite process where... Exactly. You're gonna keep going to and keep going to explore and keep showing up in a lot of those different ways.

Liz McLean 21:21

Can I share another one of my ideas that I have?

Phillip Migyanko 21:24

Go ahead. Yes.

Liz McLean 21:25

It's a recent one. Well, actually, no, I don't know if it's the recent one. So I'm going back to talent mobility because it's fresh in my brain. One of the other things that I do with this client is finding a topic like that, right? There's so many SaaS companies, right? So there could be problems, that there is a software as a service for. So if you find like, who is the person that is serving these people, and go on their website, right, so be exact, there are lots of HR, SaaS products, right, there's lots of talent mobility, SaaS products, go on their website and see who they're bragging about as customers who have been successful. Because those are the companies that are really following and being successful, it's like, really have skin in the game in this problem or area versus a company that might be like, "Okay, we're gonna subscribe to this", and maybe don't execute very well. And so that would be a company that I would put on my list, because it's like, oh, you truly value this.

Phillip Migyanko 22:26

I've had people... I tell my clients the same kind of thing. So I'll tell them when they go to, for example, when they have a conference coming up, I tell them to go look at the sponsors, go look at the like the companies that are there, the booths and those kinds of things, more than likely, they're there because they have figured out that their markets close or like they really have similar missions, or they have similar kinds of things. So I'll tell people to look there. I'll tell people to often look at like sponsors for like your favorite podcast, so you have favorite podcasts that you like, usually, you can like, "Oh, well, what are companies that are sponsoring this?" and then sometimes that company might be too big, but then there are other similar companies to that or within that space. So it kind of, it creates those kind of next steps. Or I'll even tell clients like, "All right, well go and look at people in those associations that you're looking at. And then look and see what company they work for, or previous companies they work for too", like, there's so many different ways that you can look, and you can get to that. But it doesn't really start off until you've actually, like, figured out where you want to focus your time. What I found so much in this work is that you can get as specific as you as you want and get really nitty gritty, and that's kind of required, but it doesn't happen at first, that kind of happens over time, you kind of have to build the plane as you're flying it, so to speak.

Liz McLean 23:50

Right. But what really gets you going is having that general of like, what am I interested? Where do I want to go? Where do I want to be? Like, some kind of filter the first, like, we've discussed this, right? So that you're not reaching for, what are the best companies to work for, but you're reaching for or trying to find what are the best companies for me, for Phillip, for Liz, based on what we've already identified?

Phillip Migyanko 24:18

I asked the question earlier about, so I didn't ask the question moreso put out, like, well, here are the filters that I generally think about when I'm, you know, helping clients determine, like, which companies have been on there. I usually make them specific to the person. So for example, I have a client right now, he works in a really big industry, over in Boston in defense. And so we are looking at individuals and companies that have like a defense arm where it could be easier to transition into. It's very important for him that he works in a global company because he travels. So essentially, those are the two big filters that we use right now, and then we're getting better filters over time. Are there any other filters that you generally use for people for how to build a company list or even contacts? Those are just examples of it's very individual, but just like in general.

Liz McLean 25:14

I mean, they're not general, right? So they're very specific to everybody. I had a client that was coming off a not great experience at a company where they hadn't been in support working mothers very well, like they did in terms of talking the talk, but they didn't walk the walk. So for her, one of the things we did was obviously look at her interests and her skills and what she wanted to do, but then we overlaid the filter of, "hey, who's really good at supporting working mothers?" and not just who made the marketing list. And so that's a challenging thing to do. So you can find groups, right? There are groups where they can ping, and people can ask questions. And yeah, so that would be another one example that comes to mind of a past client. Another one, I had a client that really wanted or I have a client now that really loves creative production. So her job, her general job, she could do anywhere, but loves her creative production work, and loves doing it for events. So we are targeting organizations where it's like, they better have a big event that she can be a part of, and that she can run and do creative production for. Otherwise, it doesn't make the list. So I'm trying to think, does that answer your question, Phillip? I mean, I come up with more.

Phillip Migyanko 26:37

It does, because I think it goes back to the same point that we're coming back to, again, as it goes back to this question of, how do you find people to reach out to? Well, you got to know who you're reaching out to first, and why reach out to them? Essentially, what you're valuing what they do, or what their company does, and or like, what's actually important to you.

Liz McLean 26:56

Or what they don't do. I had a client, it's like, I will never work with a company that works as a supplier to Walmart, like, I don't want to be connected to Walmart.

Phillip Migyanko 27:06

Really? That's specific.

Liz McLean 27:09

Yeah, I had another client that, you know, is vegetarian and be, like, "I'm not gonna work at any company because of values as far as animals go" yeah, that's the individualized part. I was gonna bring that up. Show up and be vulnerable, and tell people because you don't know where that leads gonna come from either, like, sorry, just for lack of a better word, that lead is gonna come from. I worked with a coach years ago, I totally cut you off sorry.

Phillip Migyanko 27:22

Yeah. And I think it comes back to this bigger idea of the values that you have, and it could be different for everybody. So the one client I was mentioning who wanted a global company was that, he wanted to make sure he's spending time with his family back in his home country, like, and he also... so that meant for him is like, he doesn't wanna have to have a job or has to take off time to go back for those things like, what if he could work while also being home, both home in the United States, but also home in his home country? I was like, okay, when the big value he has is spending time with his family, and is like teaching his kids with the family, spending time with their family. So it goes back to this values perspective. But really, what are you intentionally wanting, and that helps you then begin to reach out to contact those kinds of people. And this is what I usually tell people, at least tell my clients, is that you're not the first person to struggle with this thing. There's other people who struggle with this. The hard part is actually finding them. And like we said before, they're creating content, they're out there. And sometimes you actually might have to go first. Like, you might have to actually be vulnerable first. This is what I'm trying to figure out. No, go ahead.

Liz McLean 28:51

I talk to him over two years ago, I said, he's like, "Tell everybody." He's like, "Tell the person, like, tell your barista, tell your dry cleaner, tell your..." he's like, "there's only... you just don't know. But you gotta have a sense of that idea, and then be vulnerable, and tell people how they can help."

Phillip Migyanko 29:10

It's this idea that I think I've been talking to all my clients about in the last two weeks, which is, it goes back to this professionalism bs, which is, everybody out there has everything figured out. And if I don't show up with everything already figured out and have my pitch about exactly where my value is, and exactly what I'm looking for in all these things, then I can't do all these things that are going to happen later on. And it's more, like, it gets... and then what happens for most clients after that is they try to do that, and then they never end up reaching out to people or they have really crappy conversations that they didn't end with their expectations of what they wanted. So it's how you show up to the conversation in that vulnerability but also like their curiosity, all those kinds of things, but it comes back more of, this idea that everyone's just trying to figure it out. And these people that you're trying to reach out to, are also trying to figure life out probably one way or another, more than likely, right? Every single person does. Doesn't even matter the most. So it's like going out from that way just allows you to have more freedom, allows you to have more fun, and then treat this as an iterative process, like, who can I reach out to who's geeking out the same thing I am? Or who values the same things that I do? Or who's doing this really great work that I just absolutely love, all those kinds of things? And I think that's the better way to find people and how to find people, but most are unwilling or don't get deep enough to get to that level to help with all those things later.

Liz McLean 30:46

Yeah, you got to slow down a little bit in the first part. And then the other part, I mean, I'll say to clients, like, would you rather receive the email that's like, "I've got it all figured out. And I would like to connect with you." Or an email to be like, "Yeah, man, I'm kinda lost but I really love this. Would you talk to me about this?" Because people are like, ah, thank god, we don't need more experts out there, I guess. And you don't need to show up as, yeah, I mean, you said it better, Phillip. But it's more... It's endearing. It engages people more to show up and be with that vulnerability, not emotional dumping, that's a different thing.

Phillip Migyanko 31:26

Yeah, this is where I have to tell clients here, like, there's a level of vulnerability, like, we don't need to be telling everybody and our brother, every single thing or like, this what I tell clients, you don't have to be as professional as you think. That's not to say you should put your feet up on the desk, like, I'm not professional, like throwing it all professional, unless that's what the person is going for on the other side. But again, I generally don't say that. I think it's more of approaching this in a way of being human and have any other personality. And I think we live in a world where it just becomes harder and harder. But well, thanks so much, Liz, for talking about this with me today. I appreciate this. This is stuff we jam out on all the time. So thanks for having this chat with me.

Liz McLean 32:06

Yeah, thanks, Phillip, it was fun. I appreciate it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:13

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address– scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like, and the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 33:12

I remember people saying, "Oh man, but you've got the dream." And it kind of raises a red flag as people say, "you have the dreamy thinking out there." There's lots of truth to that. But something feels off right now, at least for what I think I'm looking for.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:29

One unexpected obstacle that you might have to overcome when making a career change is dealing with reactions from the people closest to you. Okay, surprisingly, these reactions are not always positive and encouraging. Your friends and family likely want what is best for you. And they may not think that a career change is a smart move. So how do you navigate these conversations with the people closest to you and get them on board to support you as you make this big life change? All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

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