506: Transitioning Out of the Military and Defining Career Success for Yourself

Julia Caban 00:01

I started thinking about and picturing the future and I couldn't picture anything. And that really scared me. And it scared me enough to saying, "Okay, it's time to reach out."

Introduction 00:19

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:44

Okay, what happens when you went through school, and then college, and then you sort of always knew what the next step would be. But now, you're at a point in your career when you can't see the next step anymore. And it turns into a special kind of torture. It can seem like a trivial thing, but it's actually a very real and jarring experience when you're used to knowing what is coming for you, what is the next step and always being able to imagine your future. Turns out, it's now up to you to figure out what to do next. But luckily, you're listening to the perfect podcast to help you figure that out.

Julia Caban 01:20

So there were a ton of kind of veteran transition programs. And that's really what I focused on. And they're all... truly, I do believe amazing resources. But the crux of the issue is still the same, that if you don't know what you want to do, which I absolutely didn't, then you're going to still end up with the job that you don't want.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:40

That's Julia Caban. Julia had committed to serving the US Navy when she graduated from college, and the military is great at letting you know what your next steps will be. And it's easy to envision your future as a service member. But when Julia decided to transition out of the military, she struggled with the lack of structure that she'd always known and a lack of resources on what career she should move into. On top of that, when she began looking for jobs in the corporate world, she struggled to relate her military experience to the job postings. And she found herself considering jobs well below her military pay, because she believed that ongoing myth that transitioning service members have to take a massive pay cut. I want you to pay attention to how Julia got really granular with job descriptions and relating them to her military experience. This gave her the confidence to go after the roles that she really wanted. Also to feel qualified in interviews and ask for the pay that she truly deserved and was qualified for. All right, here's Julia going back to her decision to join the Navy.

Julia Caban 02:50

I grew up in Northern Virginia, right outside Washington, DC. And for college, I went to University of Virginia. And I do not come from a military family at all, and I never even really considered going into the military. My parents kind of told me that if I wanted to go out of state preschool, which I originally wanted to do so, I kind of had to figure out how to pay for it. And a family friend who was in the Navy said, "You know, I think you'd be great for this and it'll get you through college, you'll have a job and it'll open a lot of doors for you. And you'll also be able to, obviously, contribute to this greater mission." And I kind of said, "Sure that sounds good." I was 17 and probably didn't know what I was getting myself into. But I received an ROTC scholarship, ended up staying in state for school. And pretty much from day one of college, I knew that I would be entering the Navy as soon as I graduated for at least five years. And kind of the overarching role that I did in the Navy, I was what they call a surface warfare officer. And they always kind of refer to that as the jack of all trades, because you have the operational side, which is ship driving, learning the combat and engineering systems on the ship. And then you have an administrative job, which changes all the time. And it's really... you get to do so many different things. And that was one thing I always really liked as well was just the constant variety.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:19

So what prompted you to decide to get out after five years? Tell me a little bit about that transition.

Julia Caban 04:27

Yeah, so any ROTC contract and then minimum amount of time you have to serve is five years. And you have to decide at least about a year in advance before the end of your contract if you're going to try and do something differently. And for me, it came down to a few different factors, like, most jobs in the military, there's kind of one path there's not really multiple different routes you can take and I had seen what my path would look like and it was not something I wanted to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:01

What would you have been doing at that point?

Julia Caban 05:04

So the ultimate goal for swell is what they call it, the commando ship. And basically, I would have gone into two to three years of shore duty, which is... you have a slower pace of life, things are a little bit more relaxed. But then after that, which you can't just sign on for a few more years, you kind of have to do the whole nine, and you're working 14 to 18 hour a day, you have absolutely no semblance of a life, and you don't really get much say over the actual job you'll be doing. It's all very arbitrary, more or less. And I just kind of I would see that as a junior officer. And I saw what the life of those leaders looked like. And I just could not picture myself doing that whatsoever.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:53

So when you transitioned out then, what was the most difficult part of that transition?

Julia Caban 06:02

I'd say two things. The first is that I genuinely had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do. And I don't know why I thought this, but I was truly convinced that I was just going to wake up one day and 'no', and that it was just going to dawn on me, and then I'd be able to make some moves. And...

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:21

You're not the only one, Julia. I think that's how many of us... that's what I thought. That's honestly the way I thought at one point in my life that it was going to work. So you're not alone.

Julia Caban 06:30

Right. No matter. And then the second fun thing that we all experienced was, I left the Navy in May of 2020. And so the pandemic had just started, and I was terrified about finding a job. So I think all of those factors just really made it a very challenging, a much more challenging transition than I expected.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:54

So when you started making that transition, where were you focusing your time and attention? How did that look for you at that time?

Julia Caban 07:08

So there are a ton of kind of veteran transition programs. And that's really what I focused on. And they're all truly I do believe amazing resources. But the crux of the issue is still the same, that if you don't know what you want to do, which I absolutely didn't, then you're going to still end up with a job that you don't want, which is exactly what happened to me. I was presented a job opportunity and before I even accepted the job, it wasn't really in line with any of my needs. But I just felt kind of desperate and felt like nothing else was going to come up, especially with the pandemic. And I figured, well, the best way to find a job is to have a job. So I kind of just took whatever I could at that point.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:56

Do you still feel the same way? Like if you're looking back at that now, do you feel like that was the right move for you at the time? Or would you have gone back and done things differently with? I mean, it's easy to say hindsight is 2020 because it is, right? But how do you look at that time period now and those decisions?

Julia Caban 08:16

I definitely wish I could have done things differently. One thing that Phillip really helped me work on was thinking about what I actually want, and not what I don't want, which, all I was focused on was I really wanted to do something completely different from the military without like, without totally being able to say 'why'. It wasn't about what drew me to that job, it's what drew me away from the military, and you're not this new thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:48

They are not the same thing– what you're running from versus what you're running to, have a tendency to be very, very different sometimes. And it's not always the opposite too. A lot of times we think, "well, it's the opposite of that." But that's not always the case. So what did that look like for you, when you took that role, I heard you say "it didn't line up with some of your needs", what's a couple of examples of those needs that it wasn't quite fitting?

Julia Caban 09:17

So at the time, I still feel this way, given my current life situation, I did not feel like a remote role would be the best for me. We were going into the pandemic, my husband was going on deployment, the idea of kind of being alone in my house all day, for however long on end, just did not sit with me. I love working with people. I love being around people. That's what I did every day in the military. So that was a big one. I'd say the second one was the salary. And I had all of these narratives in my ear when I was transitioning out that expect to take a massive pay cut. And I did take a massive pay cut and I thought "Okay, well, this is what's supposed to happen. So this is okay." And I never even really thought to think that I should shoot for something better, and something more in line with my salary goals, which it's a very hard thing to talk about in. It's very normal in the military, because everybody knows how much everybody makes. But as soon as you're out, it's like a very taboo topic. And I was not used to that at all.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:26

It's very weird in many different ways that it is so taboo. And I'm not sure that it always creates a, I don't know, I'm not sure it creates a healthy environment. But that might be another podcast for another time. But here's what I'm really curious about for you. I heard you say that people tell you just to expect a pay cut. Do you still feel that way? Or do you feel that that is misguided? Tell me just how you think about that now. And what advice would you offer other people transitioning out of the military for how to think about it?

Julia Caban 11:05

I definitely think it is misguided. And I think it speaks to people who have had negative experiences and kind of pass those along, as opposed to what they should be doing, which is seeking to help out the people who are coming after them. And I also think there's another component to that as well, where every person who I've ever known in the military has a giant skill set that is truly, in my opinion, unprecedented. And I think that so many people don't know how to market that skill set and how to talk about it. And I think that's where one of the many contributing factors to why so many transitioning service members take a pay cut is they don't have the knowledge to really define and explain their experience. And it's still something that it's hard for me now to fully explain to people what I did in the military. I've gotten a lot better at it as working through coaching and things like that. But I think that being able to describe the work you actually did in line with a future job that really is at the same level you're at, is very challenging.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:23

So my question then for you is, when you started thinking about this differently, when you started defining what you're running to, what helped you the most move through this in a way that was useful to you to target what you want, but also to help other people understand what you bring? Because, in my opinion, you bring a huge diverse skill set and experience set.

Julia Caban 12:52

Yeah, I think two things. One is, and I feel like so many other transitioning service members would struggle with this as well. But the kind of notion of, "it's okay to be selfish", I truly didn't think that I was allowed to feel like I wanted to be picky. And even when I accepted my first role, which was far from ideal for me, I still kind of felt okay, I just feel so grateful to have a job. And I feel like you know, I wake up every day grateful to be alive, but the bar has to be a little higher than that to really thrive. And I feel like that was one big thing of "okay, how can I give myself permission to be selfish and think about the ideal situation for me?" And then I think the second thing was getting extremely granular with the jobs that are out there. I would, I kind of had an idea of the industry I wanted to go into and I would tell Phillip, "I'm looking at a job description. I don't know what any of these words." And he'd be like, "Okay, Julia. Let's print it out. And we're gonna go word by word. And we're going to translate that into words that make sense for you." And it is a skill to learn how to read a job description, especially coming from a non corporate world. And just really getting to that level of detail was so helpful for me and saying, "Okay, this word means X from my experience, and here's how I can reframe this to say exactly what I'm trying to say and words that other people will understand."

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:37

That is really interesting, first of all, because I heard you say, "I wasn't used to being selfish", and I would say arguably, that what you have done and what you are wanting, actually isn't selfish, but we have a tendency to think that it is that way as a society, but really, I would say it probably falls under getting what you need so that you can serve other people even better, and you probably, I don't know, you can tell me, but I would guess you're probably a much better performer in the roles that you've actually enjoyed, versus the ones that are just taking from you. Is that a fair assessment?

Julia Caban 15:15

Absolutely. And, I think it's that reframe of that mindset that can help people think about their own needs. And not just, "I should be doing this, or I should just feel lucky to have the bare minimum", if that makes sense.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:31

Well I think, I've been searching for a while, actually, for an analogy or a way to, like, reframe that because that whole selfish thing is something that comes up again and again and again. But you said, "Hey, I feel grateful to be alive. But that doesn't necessarily mean I'm anywhere close to thriving", right. And it really is that same situation for, "I feel grateful to have a job" and that part is good. However, being grateful to have a job does not mean that you can't ever want something more in any way whatsoever. So I appreciate you pointing that out. And the thing I wanted to ask you about having been through this type of transition yourself, what would you tell people that want to make a similar transition, how to refocus and get what they might want or need, rather than just leaving it unchecked because it falls into the selfish category?

Julia Caban 16:29

That's a good one. I would, I think, I know it's not a great idea to think about what we don't want in general. But I do think that's a good starting point of, "what is something that maybe I didn't enjoy from my previous experience that I would like to change and to really just own that desire?" And I don't think it's too much. And people are allowed to want the things they want out of something that takes up eight plus hours of their day. And I think that's a really great place to start is where are the gaps between– what I've done and what I would like to be doing. And I think another thing that has really helped me, that Phillip has helped reframe me is, it's not about just the job I want, it's the life that I want to lead. And sometimes you can want a job, but it's not compatible with the life that you want. And you need to be able to distinguish those differences. And I think by keeping the ideal life as the priority, you can find a job that fits within that and not vice versa.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:42

We have so many people that come to us focused on the job aspect. But to your point, the job isn't necessarily that useful, unless you understand what is the type of life that you're trying to build. What does that look like? What is that involved? Who does that involve? How does that work, per se? And if you're building towards that perpetually, it's much easier to see whether something fits into that or steers you away from that. So I appreciate you pointing that out. And what I'm super curious about because you made an initial transition. And it turned out not to be as good of a fit as you'd hoped. Tell me a little bit about what you transitioned to initially in your, we'll call it your, I guess, second career change, because you went from the military into one type of job, left that and then moved into working with Amazon, right, for a while?

Julia Caban 18:38

I did. And this was, I think if I could pick one thing to do differently during my coaching time, this would 100% be it. I sort of had these major compounding factors in my life that I was really not expecting. My husband and I bought a house and two months after I moved into it, he was deployed. But we found out we were moving. So that was kind of a weird factor, unexpected number one. A couple of weeks after that, I lost my job. And then I also was unfortunately going through some pretty serious health issues at the time as well. And I was just feeling extremely lost and we were about to make our move. And I think I was both struggling personally professionally but also with kind of my own identity within that move. And I thought I need to be in a space where I feel kind of safe to be a military spouse and have that accepted and again, I just picked one criteria and ran with that and I knew that company is very supportive of both ex-military and military spouses and I kind of felt "okay, this is a pretty safe bet for me", which it was. Again, did not meet the salary requirements for me. It was really not supportive of the other personal things I had going on in my life. And I ended up with that job pushing myself to this completely unnecessary breaking point that I completely inflicted on myself. And I think if I had, again, looked more holistically and not just one thing, then I could have avoided all that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:21

What prompted you to realize it was time to leave Amazon?

Julia Caban 20:27

I think there was one big thing. And, it's kind of a crappy thing. But it's also, I've had to believe in these signs from the universe. And I went to the doctor, and it was a Tuesday, and he said, "You need to come back in for an unexpected surgery on Friday." And that was not how I pictured that day or that week going. And, but it was a wake up call that I was pushing myself way too far for really no reason. This was not my dream job. This was not where I wanted my life to be going. I just kind of had some identity issues, some pride issues to work out. And that was the universe giving me a wake up call that this was not the path for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:14

I've had many of those experiences over my lifetime. And I have also found that they serve really well as wake up calls. So once you got that wake up call, and went through that set of experiences, which sounds challenging to put it at the very least, what did that cause you to do? Or when did you start taking action or what happened from there?

Julia Caban 21:43

From there, I basically told Philip, "I'm all in, I'm trusting you, I'm not going to settle for my next role. I'm going to give myself the time that I need to kind of physically get past what I'm dealing with in my personal life. And then I want to hit the ground running. And I'm not going to settle for anything less than what I want, even if it takes longer than I want, even if it's hard and frustrating", which it was all of those things, of course, but that was kind of what I decided was– no more settling, because I settled twice. And it did not work out the way I wanted to. And so I think that was... once I committed to that things really started trending up and I started making a ton of progress.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:33

I think what's really interesting that I found in, not just your story, but many of the stories that we share on this podcast, but I've also experienced it too is that, things are going to be... there's always going to be challenges, it's always going to be hard in one way or another. So do you want it to be hard because you are settling for something? Or do you want it to be hard because you're going after what you really actually want? And that's the sort of logic that I keep coming back to year after year after year. Because everybody has challenges in their life, and they look very, very different. And the challenges in something that you really want to be doing, at least I've found are far more palatable, they're better challenges, the better problems, than going after an area that you just really don't want to be in or you've settled for. So has your experience been similar to that? Or how would you describe how you think about it now after settling a couple of times, as you said?

Julia Caban 23:36

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's kind of where I think I'll approach things. Whatever I do moving forward is, it'll always be hard. But the reasons it's hard are completely up to you. And that is, I think just after settling twice, and then not settling and seeing how rewarding that can be, and getting that one 'win' under my belt, it's the... you know, everyone needs like one good 'win' sometimes. And that's how I felt and I thought, "Okay, I can not settle moving forward, I can dream bigger, I can go after even more next time around because I finally realized that it's okay to not settle." And it's funny because I feel like I haven't settled in any other area of my life. And so why would I do so professionally?

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:28

Well, that's interesting. That's kind of fascinating. When did you realize that?

Julia Caban 24:34

Oh, gosh, I don't know. I think probably a month before I got my job that I have now. You just take inventory of the things that are otherwise going on. And I'm always... I'm the pusher in my relationship and in all aspects of my life. I'm always pushing for the best and the next thing and I realized that I can't do that in every single area of my life except for my job. And yeah, it's a different mindset. I feel like when you're kind of at the mercy of somebody else, which you are in any kind of job situation, but that's still not a reason to not push for what you can the best for what you deserve, I guess.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:21

Tell me a little bit about what you do now. What's your title? Tell me a little bit about what your work looks like?

Julia Caban 25:30

Yes, so I'm an Internal Communications and Employee Engagement. And I do a lot of writing, which is by far one of the most favorite aspects of my job. It's something that I knew I had a strong skill set in before starting this, and I really wanted to take into my next job. And then as for employee engagement, it's kind of a mix of things like events, different internal functions that keep people connected to the company, and our overall mission.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:02

Where did you figure out that you wanted to carry writing over into this opportunity?

Julia Caban 26:11

I think once. I think one thing Phillip, once he was able to get it into my head that I needed to stop thinking about the things I don't want, and look back to all of the things that have brought me joy. One thing that I kind of realized that stuck out to me was during my time in the military, I had always wanted to become a public affairs officer, which is kind of their version of a journalist. And unfortunately, it never worked out for me during my time in the military. It's a very competitive field. And I wasn't selected. And I think because of that, I kind of wrote off that whole concept. And that desire never went away. I mean, I literally was trying for four out of my five years in the Navy to do this. And once I kind of realized, "Okay, just because that it didn't work out in that situation, it doesn't mean that desire left." And I was able to really take that knowledge and get really clear on how I wanted my next role to look. And I wanted something in that industry similar to that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:18

That's really cool. One that you realize that. And two, that you now have found that in this latest version of your career. So tell me a little bit about how did... let's get really granular for a little bit here. How did you go from working at Amazon, realizing, "Hey, this is not quite the fit that I'm looking for." and then what were some of the key milestones and steps that had to take place for you to, on the other end of this, except this opportunity that is a much better fit for you?

Julia Caban 27:53

I think, again, one thing that really helped me was all of the job description nitty gritty where I would look at a job that was interesting, and we would go line by line. And I found that when I really took the time to understand what the description was actually saying, 9 times out of 10, I had done something that very much kind of checked that box, especially pursuing being a PIO in the Navy, I had so many side projects I did during my time. And I realized, "I've done this. I've done this. I've done this." And it was one of those things where I realized I have to tell them how my experience correlates to what they're going to ask me to do. It's not their job to decipher that from my resume. It's my job to explain that more clearly. And when I was able to really get to that level of detail and say on my resume and in an interview, "how can I portray that they're asking me to do X in this job, how can I show that I have already done that and I have that skill set?" And that's where it got really down to the nitty gritty and just getting to that level of detail was so helpful and really made all the difference.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:13

What took place from there for you? After you started realizing that, "hey, it's my role", which I think that's a very uncommon realization, unfortunately. And I'd love to change that. So I'm really glad that you pointed out, "hey, it's my job to be able to make sure that I'm communicating clearly how I fit what this organization needs", right? But once you had that realization, once you started getting into the specifics, what happened next that led you towards this role?

Julia Caban 29:41

I feel like that was kind of the beginning of I felt like I kind of had this dead period where I realized that, I was working, I was reaching out, I was applying, and for two weeks absolutely nothing happened and then everything happened all at once. I had zero prospects, zero anything. And then I had four interviews lined up. And speaking of, kind of, the job description concept, while it was great to really pair what I've done to different parts of the job description, I didn't check off every little bullet with the job description. And I used to look at that and think, "Oh my God, I'm so grossly unqualified for these roles." And one interesting story was, I made it all the way through an interview process with this one job, I had four interviews. They had asked for 10 years of experience in this very niche field. And I didn't even have 10 years work experience, but I ended up making it all the way through and I wasn't offered the job because they told me they actually thought I was too senior. So I think also just being able to take the job descriptions with a grain of salt was good. But yeah, once I was able to really get that detail down, I had all of these interviews lined up. And I did tell Phillip, "this is where I feel like I do my best is during interviews. I just wasn't able to get them because I wasn't good at explaining what I've done and how it lines up with this organization's role in their hiring for." And I felt like after that, I really think started to get a lot more in a state of flow, because I do feel like I do pretty well in interviews.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:24

I can see why. You're such a great communicator. And what caused you to realize that you needed or wanted help?

Julia Caban 31:35

So one thing I feel like I'm always doing is I'm always thinking about the next step. I always, I kind of, I guess you could say a daydreamer. I'm always thinking about the future and what I want. And I always picture it very clearly. And I got to a point where I would wrap up my day. And I would spend probably two to three hours on my couch at the end of the day Googling, you know, "how do I figure out the right career for me." And doing that day after day after day, you'd think I'd realized that I don't think I can get there on my own. And it wasn't until, I think all of the... we had our move coming up so many different factors. And I started thinking about and picturing the future and I couldn't picture anything. And that really scared me. And it scared me enough to saying, "Okay, it's time to reach out because I don't have the picture anymore." And that's something I've never been able to not have.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:37

What advice would you give to people that are in that place right now, where they've kind of always known what the next thing might be for them, but now they're questioning that or now they don't necessarily know what that can look like?

Julia Caban 32:52

I would honestly, I mean, tell them to reach out to somebody and ask for help. Because I don't think I really understood how normal it is to have a career coach and how there's a whole reason that your team dedicates their lives to this is because everybody, at some point or another, will find themselves in a similar situation. And it's okay to reach out and ask for help. And I think that, I don't know if I could have figured it out on my own, but even if I did, it would have taken me a long, long time. And time is all we have. So I kind of wanted to learn these lessons and get through that faster. And that would be my biggest advice is, like, have someone reach out to somebody who can help you get really clear, and it's okay to not know, but it's not okay to not do anything about it, I guess. And then I think that, kind of, what I was saying about how I left because I just didn't see the path ahead in the one way to climb the military ladder. And I would just tell anyone to really define success for yourself, because the military has one path to success. And that's how that organization needs to be. That's how it needs to function. But that's not how the real world functions. And whatever is success to you is really all that matters now. So...

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:22

How has your definition of success changed?

Julia Caban 34:28

I use assessment, working all the time, because I worked all the military, and I thought that your whole life needed to be your job. And it wasn't until I realized how much I wanted my identity and my work to be separated that I was able to actually start doing that and I feel now that, you know, my work is obviously a part of what I do but it is not who I am and I think that is a really, for me, that's really important and to carry that through the rest of my life, and I came from a military where your work is your identity. And I know very few people who it's not the case for them in that organization. And I'm just really happy that I was able to kind of say, that's not what success means to me anymore and make a change.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:30

If you've been thinking about making a change for a while now, and you don't really know how to best take the first step, or get started, here's what I would suggest. Just open your email app on your phone right now. And I'm gonna give you my personal email address, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com, just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. Tell me a little bit about your situation and I'll connect you with the right person on our team, where we can figure out the very best way that we can help you, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com, drop me an email.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:01

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Kate Wilkes 36:07

I can walk out of this office at the end of the day with a smile on my face. And I can know exactly which strengths I was living in today to make me feel good and when you know that, you will never settle for less than that, again.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:23

We spent a lot of time talking about working in your strengths on this podcast. But you may have found yourself wondering, why does drinks even matter? I guess it depends. Do you want to even enjoy your work? If so, Gallup has some amazing data that they have gathered from more than 34 million people that strongly suggest that people who have a ridiculously high awareness about themselves are more satisfied with their work and are happier. You might have even taken every assessment, personality test and quiz out there only to find out that you're still in the same place. But in order to do work that you're great at and gets you excited, you have to understand what your strengths mean for you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:10

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.