Alyssa Barlow 00:01

I am a creature of habit, and I like to do the same things all the time. But it was a big realization for me this year, is that if we just keep doing the same things all the time, we will only continue getting those same results, and we have to be able to recognize those triggers when we're ready to move on to make things move bigger.

Introduction 00:23

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:46

Over the past few years, five years in particular, we've had one episode that got so much positive feedback, and we did it year after year after year, and then didn't do one last year. But back by popular demand is another one of the exact same episodes where I get to bring on Alyssa, my wife, and we discuss our goals from the previous year–what worked, what didn't work, our goals for next year. And now I have... I was actually really sad that, you know, I didn't get to do one of these episodes last year. Just timing didn't work out, we didn't put it into the content schedule. But I've really grown to look forward to these meetings, this conversation, these episodes, and really the goal setting process in general. But that wasn't always the case. If we go way back to 2009, our goal setting began from a place of fear. Fear that we weren't going to be able to afford the life that we wanted, fear that really pushed us to get very intentional and then eventually to set some very, very big goals. And once we started hitting those goals, I realized, "Hey, this actually works, and it can be really fun." So now, many years later, I get excited to have these yearly chats, go through this annual process, and this year, we once again decided to let you be a part of our takeaways from doing goal setting for 2025. My hope in doing this is that you can see what really goes into our annual planning, specifically the parts that went well and what we want to do differently, and then be able to take our learnings and use some of those things, use some of the tactics, use some of the takeaways to be able to make your year, 2025, the best year ever for yourself. The year that you hit some very big goals, some huge goals, and maybe even some that you thought were impossible. So all that to say, Alyssa, I'm really excited to have you back, really pumped to have you back for two different reasons. Number one, for people who aren't aware, we've transitioned you in and out of the business in various different capacities several times over. Is that right?

Alyssa Barlow 03:04

Yes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:04

Okay. That is...

Alyssa Barlow 03:06

Some by choice, others not.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:08

Yeah, as it turns out. So before we jump into this, catch people up on what's happened the last couple of years. Because it was two years ago where you entered... you left the business completely. You stepped out of every single role, except for a small advising role, and stepped into your dream job. And there's a lot that's happened since then.

Alyssa Barlow 03:29

Yeah. So two years ago, I stepped away from our business to go back into education, a field that I am passionate about. I did it for two years. I loved my job. It really was my ideal career, until it wasn't. So we kind of did it as an experiment, and I did love what I was doing, but we have taken on some other projects. We opened a short term rental, and life got busier with three teenagers. And so we decided that it was no longer a fit for me to be working outside of the home full time, and so I decided to come back to HTYC a tiny bit, mostly the short term rental family passport, and then being there for our kiddos.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:10

So I gotta say, though, you and I have had a bit of this conversation, but I'm really super proud of you. Because over the last, oh my goodness, yeah, I guess it's been about three years now, you started out you were experimenting, saying, "Hey, you know what, now that the kids are all in school, do I want to go back to a different type of job or role?" And you experimented with that a little bit. You took on, you know, some long term sub positions. Decided, "No, I don't actually want to be in the classroom in a traditional environment." And then you found this really wonderful fit for you that wasn't directly in a normal classroom, that was English language learning, right? And then after you decided this is no longer good for you, and then also, I know you care deeply about our family as it turns out, good for the impact of the family too, you had decided to leave, which I know was a really difficult decision for you. What made it most difficult for you?

Alyssa Barlow 05:14

I think because it really was an ideal position for me. I really loved what I did. I loved the people that I worked with. And of course, I love the kids. That's part of why I went back to education. But it just had become where, rather than one of the things I was going to talk about today, things that energize you, it had become one of those things that instead of energizing me, even though I loved it, it was actually I felt like pulling me away from the family.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:40

Well, you cared about even more at that time. Yeah, absolutely. And so super proud of you for making that decision, incredibly difficult decision, and then acting on it. And then also, you stepped into running our other business, which we formed about a year ago. Is that right?

Alyssa Barlow 05:59

Yeah, almost a year now.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:01

Wow, 11 months ago at the time of this recording, we're recording in November. And stepped into like building the operations up and then, and for a little bit of context, you mentioned short term rental. It's a company called Family Passport, and it started out just as a brand, not even its own separate organization, where we had a travel journal, we had a blog, a website, all kinds of things like that. And then has now morphed into short term rentals, vacation rentals for families that want to make memories together, right? So that is... is it fair to say that that has been way outside your comfort zone?

Alyssa Barlow 06:37

Yeah. This is a big step outside my comfort zone.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:40

Yeah, so I think you've done a really nice job at it. I know from all the conversations we've had, it doesn't always feel like that, but what do you feel like was most outside of your comfort zone stepping into that?

Alyssa Barlow 06:52

I mean, parts of it are similar to what I had done for HTYC and in other positions I'd held in the past. Parts of it are not similar. A lot of learning in as far as specifics for analytics and data for short term rentals. I've done analytics and data in other places, but not specific to real estate or rentals.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:18

You know what was really surprising for me, you and I had a conversation, why are certain pieces of analytics and data, why are you glomming on why are some of those pieces easier for you to learn than other pieces? And you made the point that some of the skill sets that you developed in education is looking at all of these different sources of data and analytics, even in some ways that people don't think about it as data and analytics. And so you were able to carry that over from working in a classroom, and I think a lot of teachers don't necessarily think about it that way. And those types of transferable skills was that, and easy is not the right word, that's why you're laughing, but easier in certain circumstances than...

Alyssa Barlow 08:06

Oh, for sure. I mean, just looking at data and understanding how certain sets of data go together to make impacts. Which education is data driven, if you look into it and dive into it, and that was a piece that I actually enjoyed about my most current role is that because I was working with English language learners, there was a lot of data to drive into to help them make progress and understand what I was doing was working or not working. So it's similar, but real estate data is quite different.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:39

Let's relate all of this... let's bring this around the goals. One of the things, like, if we go back more than a few years, I can't remember what year this happened, but at some point you started talking about wanting to own a vacation property in California. It was at the time we were down in California, we were staying at this beautiful Airbnb on the water, and at some point you're like, "Hey, I get used to this. This would be a dream that I would have." And then that evolved into what we'd call a someday goal, if we're borrowing some of the language from the folks over at the one thing, what they might call, and we'd call a "someday goal" of we want to own properties all over the world, especially as our kids grow up, we want to be able to make it easy to be in the places they are. So we want to own properties and spaces, beautiful properties and spaces that are in the same places that they are, and the places that we want to spend more time in. Right? So this evolved into this really big dream. And then, so if we're bringing it closer to today, or rather, this actually started out several years ago, three/two years ago, three years ago. Three years ago, we said, "Okay, well, how are we going to make that happen? Well, we probably need to start with one. How can we buy our first property?" And then that's where we had said, turned it into a goal, and then eventually that goal led to purchasing a property in the same town, the same city that we currently live in. So we bought this beautiful log cabin on the lake across from us. And that was us trying to dive in and see, do we even want to really, like, we have this dream, but is this even now we want to spend our time? So take over for a minute. Like, what has been your... before we talk about our learnings for this past year, what, from your perspective, has that experience been like?

Alyssa Barlow 10:33

Well, definitely the first time I wrote that on a piece of paper. It was a little hard to take because that was pretty early in our, like, dream big goal setting, I guess, if you want to call it that, writing those someday goals. But then the more we talked about it, and the more we planned, the more realistic it became to not just, you know, the someday goal was to own a beachfront property somewhere, and then it kind of evolved into owning multiple vacation properties. But then as we broke it backwards, it was, "well, we have to start with one somewhere. So how do we get to the one?" And so then, as we started making plans, then it became more, "Oh, well, it is realistic. We can start with one to see if we like it" kind of similar to other experimentations, like me going back to work, like started with simple iterations of it to determine whether that was something we wanted to do and fit our life. So yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:28

And now is the part where we get to say, okay, now, several years later, now we actually have this other business. That's one of the goals that we accomplished, which is pretty cool, fun to see that in action now. It was just an idea, just about 3 or 4 years ago, and now it's a reality. But let's go into 2025 here. We did goal setting very differently this year compared to how we've done it in the past. And feel free to go back to some of the past episodes where we've talked about goal setting. And you can find some of the evolution of our goal setting, you can go to episode 316, 439, or 494, we'll link all of those up in the show notes, in the description, and you can just click on them if you're interested. But it's evolved quite a bit. And so this year, we ended up creating a retreat, a small retreat with some really good friends that also wanted to be able to set goals and set really big goals, and that we met 3 or 4 years ago, whatever it's been now, and they've just turned into really phenomenal friends that have really pushed us. And so we went and reserved an Airbnb in Arizona, a beautiful part of Arizona, and over a four, what, four or five day period, we got to have a really fun, wonderful trip and go through all the parts and pieces of what is now our system for a goal setting. So that sets the stage. What would you say, you know, if you're looking back on this year, 2024 goals, and then setting new goals for 2025, what do you feel like worked very well from your perspective? Or what were your... Actually, let's do this. What were your takeaways coming out of this past year, going in and setting new goals for this new year?

Alyssa Barlow 13:29

So I think a couple things that really made this year impactful for us and a big takeaway that I had was that things work great until it's time to move on. And I think this year was our year to move on from what we were doing, not that what we were doing wasn't great, and not that hadn't worked great for us for the past four years, but this year, we were ready for something new, kind of like when we had changed the way we were setting goals the last time, four years ago, we were ready for something new, and then it worked really great for us, until we got to the point where we were like, "Well, we think we need something else in order to keep moving bigger." So we could keep doing the same things again and probably get to the same places. But in order to do something bigger, we had to make some adjustments, and we had to reframe our minds and do things a little differently. So I think that was the biggest thing for me. It's like I am a creature of habit, and I like to do the same things all the time, but it was a big realization for me this year, is that if we just keep doing the same things all the time, we will only continue getting those same results that sometimes we have to be able to recognize those triggers when we're ready to move on to make things move bigger.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:41

Yeah. If we want to level up or grow or evolve in what we are accomplishing and achieving the life that we want to build, and, you know, the people that we want to impact, then that's going to require our the way that we set goals and think about goals to evolve along with that, right? So, yeah, it's the whole "What Got You Here Won't Get You There" thing, right? So that's a really great takeaway. I had a similar one too, and to kind of spin off that, I'll say that one part of my takeaway was that the more years that pass, the easier it is to set more intentional goals, or to be more intentional and more impactful with goal setting. And in some ways, those things didn't necessarily need to evolve. Like here's a couple examples. One of the things that we found, as we were going through and setting goals this year, one part of our system in the past has been taking time to block everything for the entire next year on the calendar that is important, like, what are the vacations, trips, birthdays, time off, all of those types of things, whatever we wanted to make space for in our lives. We've done a pretty good job of that. And so when we started to do that this year, I realized,oh, you know what? In some years in the past, I don't even remember when it was, we created a resource that I'd totally forgotten about, and it's literally a SOP or standard operating procedures for ourselves and our family that has all those days and all the things to think about. So we just literally handed it over to Heather on our team, who's amazing and is our assistant, and she has just added it to the calendar, and it made it so much easier versus trying to think about all those things. So in some ways, we're continuing to build every year, and that gets easier. But the flip side of that is exactly what you said, which is, there are some parts that are no longer serving us well. And I think one big example of that was, instead of going to a conference where everybody, you know, if you have 100 people, or 300 people, or 900 people, or something like that, and it's built around goal setting, you're sort of moving at a pace that you can move with 900 people. And after doing this for 10, 12, 15 years, then we don't really want to move at that pace anymore, necessarily. So it was no longer serving us. So instead creating our own agenda with the people that we wanted to spend time with, and including some of the pieces that were most important to us, that was a huge... I was surprised at how, and maybe I shouldn't be, but I was surprised at how well that worked. When we went through and said, "What do we want out of this goal setting? What do we want to have accomplished? What do we want to achieve? How do we want to feel coming out of it?" And then that led us to, here's a really simple takeaway. You and I both agreed that in past years, we had left a goal setting conference and felt amazing, except that it created a whole bunch of extra work for us. Because we had the goals like 90%, not 100% complete, and we didn't want to do that anymore. We wanted 100% complete, and that required a lot of extra time and space. Right? So we built that in this year. So there's an example. What other takeaways did you have?

Alyssa Barlow 14:56

[18:11] I think the other takeaway I had kind of mentioned earlier, but it actually came out of the portion that you did on strengths, which I've heard you talk about strengths, watch webinars on strengths.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:10

Which little bit of context for people, one of the things that we put into this overall, you know, four or five day agenda, was the three other couples that we were traveling with and setting goals with had asked if I would do a, I don't know, I think it was like a 90 minute session on signature strengths. So something obviously I love. Anyhow.

Alyssa Barlow 18:40

So I've heard all of the content, a lot of different times over the years, I've read it through emails, you know, been immersed in it since you started this business. But what I came away with this time that I had not gotten before was using the activities that energize you are typically the activities that are within your strengths. And so that really helped me with writing my own personal goals, thinking about which activities I'm putting on my calendar that energize me, using my strengths versus just writing a goal because I feel like I need a goal on the paper.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:14

Is this something, "Yes, maybe I want to do it, but is this really how I want to do it in this particular way too?" Yeah, that's really interesting. And I, along the same lines this, you and I have had a lot of conversation about this over the last year, because at the beginning of this last year, we had a team member that went on maternity leave, and then we had a paternity leave, excuse me, and then we had another team member that later on went on maternity leave, and then we had a person transition off the team, and then another person we had been transitioning off the team had been part of the plan for, I don't know, like a year and a half or something, and all that sort of happened around the same couple of months. So I stepped back into a couple of roles in Happen To Your Career that I hadn't done for a really long time. And for some reason, it's easy to say this now, but for some reason at the time, I couldn't see that I was staying longer than I should have. It was great to step in and help out as we were transitioning the team and, you know, finding new people and everything like that. And then, for some reason, I persisted to stay in those areas which I have enjoyed those roles, for example, one of the things that was actually really fun is I got to step in and help out with meeting new people who were considering working with Happen To Your Career, and helping to custom build them plans to be able to accomplish their goals and their career changes and whatever they were going after at that time. So that was really fun. I hadn't done it for a while. And also, it's not strictly in my strengths. There are definitely people, many people out there in the world that are far better at it than I am, and we have some really wonderful people on our team that are in those roles now. So I overstayed my welcome, and it made operating not strictly within my signature strengths, ended up making a good chunk of the year much more stressful than it needed to be, and I forgot about that. It has been a long time since I've done that in that particular way, and I forgot about the profound impact that it has. At some points, it downright sucked, quite frankly. And also, there's this whole thing looming in the back of my mind where it's like, "Hey, this is what we teach people to do, like, you have to be able to role model this." So you know, hindsight is always 2020 but I feel compelled to share that takeaway because it was a relearning for me, just how much of a difference it makes quality of life feel when you get to operate within your strengths versus around your strengths, or even conflicting with your strengths. So yeah, there it is. What any other takeaways that you had from setting goals this year?

Alyssa Barlow 22:09

[22:10] Yeah, I think the other major takeaway that, I think this was one that we both shared, but you know, we did accomplish our goals last year.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:20

Yeah, almost all of them. Right?

Alyssa Barlow 22:21

Yeah. However, like you just mentioned, some things were probably more stressful than they needed to be, or we made them more complex. Or...

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:30

Yeah, we never made things more complex. That's not a thing that we do at all. 100% sarcasm.

Alyssa Barlow 22:34

But I think what we came away with is that we do far better at excelling and succeeding and thinking big and moving big when we have someone to hold us accountable for that. And this last year, we chose not to have a person to hold us accountable for that, to make us sit down with our goals, weekly or monthly, or whatever it was that we chose to do, because we just we're going to go in our own this year, and at the end of the year, it's not that we still didn't accomplish the goals, but I feel like we could have accomplished them with a little bit less stress and a little more ease had we had that support. So I think that was the takeaway that I took. Who can we ask for support? Where can we get support from? And how can we build in that accountability? Whether it's with a coach or with, you know, the members of the retreat that we went to, whatever it is. But that's something that we both flourish off of, is having that accountability and the presence with our goals more frequently.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:35

Yeah, that wasn't a takeaway that I wrote down, but you and I definitely talked about that, because last year we had a coach that we both worked with as a couple, and we were sort of dividing the time, and that actually worked really well for that time period. And then we stopped doing that this year, and normally, what we have done, if we look back and see where were we successful, we've done a great job of lining up people to help us focus on those particular areas, whether it's health, like you were doing that with physical therapy for a while, like, there's a lot of areas in our life where we have, like, find a person help us accomplish whatever that thing is that's really important to us. And then, yeah, we just, in some ways, didn't do that in a poor couple portions of our life this year, and it made it feel very different. It's funny. Yeah, you're right. We still accomplished the thing.

Alyssa Barlow 24:25

We did.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:26

And many of the things, and it felt so drastically different. So, yeah, learn from us. Find the people that are going to make things easier and feel different, in so many different ways. That's a really great takeaway. I think that the last question I wanted to ask here before we break is just when you look back over this last year, what was your favorite goal that we made an impact on or accomplished? You remember off your top of your head?

Alyssa Barlow 24:55

I mean purchasing the short term rental, that definitely was a big one.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:00

That was huge.

Alyssa Barlow 25:01

And then I think, although I guess it wasn't really a, well... So it wasn't really a goal for me to leave my job, however, I feel like it was an accomplishment to be able to make that decision and be in a mindset, in a place where we were able to recognize that although it was my ideal position, it was no longer the right place to be. So I think that was pretty big. And then I guess the other one, you just briefly mentioned physical therapy, but I had a goal to run a half marathon, and I did complete that this year.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:33

Yeah. You're tearing. I know nobody can see, but you're tearing up, and that was a big deal for you, and you did it. So you've run, this is not your first half marathon, you've run...

Alyssa Barlow 25:45

No, I think six or seven.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:47

Yeah, six or seven. So this is not your first rodeo or half marathon. But it was the first one that you did pain free on the other side of it, which is a big deal. I'm proud of you.

Alyssa Barlow 25:59

Thank you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:00

Nicely done.

Alyssa Barlow 26:00

Thank you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:02

And so on that note, I think that's where we end this. This is our takeaways for the end of 2024 moving into 2025. Hope to do another episode next year. We'll get you back on.

Alyssa Barlow 26:12

All right, I'll be back.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:19

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:11

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 27:17

I recognized I was burnt out. And here I am, thinking, corporate America just quit. I won't be burned out. That solves my problem, moving on. And it really did not. At all.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:29

When you're burned down, it's easy to think that finding the perfect role will fix everything, but that's not how burnout works. Simply leaving a job doesn't cure the burnout without giving yourself time to recover and get clear on next steps. Burnout has a way of following you around. But here's the real challenge, not everyone can afford to take a complete break from their career to recover. And that's often where we recommend what we would call a 'bridge role' or an intermediary role. A well chosen bridge role can give you the time and space to step back, reset, and figure out what you really want out of your career transition. Think about a bridge role as a strategic step in the right direction, an intentional step building the bridge to your ideal career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:20

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it, and if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player, so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week, until next week. Adios, I'm out.

Heather Yurovsky 00:01

I had learned over the previous 10 years that I could be whoever I wanted to be. I mean, I had worked in a new industry every couple of years, I had built companies from the ground up, and I kind of felt like there was no challenge I couldn't take on as long as it felt in alignment with the way that I wanted to work.

Introduction 00:27

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:52

Imagine reaching the pinnacle of your career field only to walk away and pursue something entirely new, something that sparks your curiosity and excites you, instead of simply following the expected next step of your career. Now imagine doing that, not once, not twice, but many times. Today's guest has done exactly that. She's gone from attorney to marketing director to head of business to Chief Operations Officer. She's even been a professional and certified coach, guiding others on their own career paths. Here's the kicker, she never had to start over. She was able to run towards roles that lit her up and evolve her career into iterations that fit her better and better every time. I think it's time to rethink what it means to have a successful career. Maybe the job that you once loved is starting to feel stale, yet you're still holding on. But what if outgrowing each role you take on and running towards something that excites you is actually the key to building a fulfilling career?

Heather Yurovsky 01:58

And they were also so kind because they knew that it got to a point where, like, we think that you probably need a role somewhere else. We think you've outgrown this role, and there's nothing else we can give you here.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:09

That's Heather Yurovsky. And as you heard, Heather has had many dream roles in her life, moving from the legal world and startups, even launching her own business along the way. Most people would stay in each of these roles for 20 or 30 or even 40 years. But Heather's path is anything but typical. Moving from role to role, each a position that many would consider a final destination. She's continuously evolved. Choosing to leave each role behind when it no longer aligned with her vision of fulfillment. Today, Heather leads our entire client results team here at Happen To Your Career. She draws on her wealth of experience to coach clients and that we get to work with and lead all of our coaches on our team. She gets to blend everything she's learned from marketing & sales and her own career transitions to help others figure out their next steps. Pretty cool, right? So I want you to pay attention to how she talks about repeatedly reaching a ceiling in her career, and how she navigated the emotional complexities of leaving behind roles that once felt like the perfect fit, and also why outgrowing a position does not mean that you're giving up on success. Quick, little bit of backstory, before Heather joined us on our team here at Happen To Your Career, we worked with her to get her on the team for almost two years. And I think the really fun thing here is that it literally was a product of two years worth of work and her role modeling and walking the walk with everything that we teach that allowed her to end up in this role that is a phenomenal fit for her, but also in terms of how we benefit as an organization in our team. So she literally walks the walk in every aspect. One more thing before we jump into–Samantha from our team, actually got to sit down with Heather to talk about her journey. So that's who you'll be hearing from today. All right, I'm gonna let Samantha and Heather take it away. But first, here's Heather sharing where her career began.

Heather Yurovsky 04:17

Growing up, I had always glamorized the idea of being in advertising. In my mind, I really enjoyed watching commercials, which I know now everybody wants to skip them or avoid them altogether, but I really love the idea of branding and advertising and messaging. So I had these two parallel ideas in my mind of what my career would look like. One half of me really liked the idea of being in advertising and working in a big agency, and I didn't really know what was involved, but I kind of pictured the big corner office and getting to wear nice clothes to work, and coming up with cool ideas and working with interesting creative people, and then the other half of me had grown up in the law. I had a lot of exposure to it, just between my parents getting divorced when I was young. So really kind of just always having family law as a part of my being in existence. And so the other half of me also wanted to practice law in some way. It was a less clear vision, other than I felt like, "Hey, I kind of understand this. I do feel really passionately about helping others and making their lives better and easier, and I really like the idea of solving problems and really just gathering lots and lots of information to do that." So ultimately, I studied advertising in undergrad, knowing that I wanted to go to law school after I graduated. So still running these parallel paths. I did get into law school. I went to law school about a year in, so it's three years. The first year, I kind of knew this is probably not what I want to do for my career.

Samantha Martin 05:58

What made you feel that way or recognize that so early?

Heather Yurovsky 06:01

I liked the idea of, like I said, problem solving. I liked the idea of really, every issue being different, and you really having to think holistically about things. I did not like the idea of it being a business. So I wanted to help people, didn't really want to have to think 10 steps ahead to maybe have that make you more money, or it really is the business of law that turned me off. But one year into law school, still a little too early to confirm that. Funny enough, when most of my friends were going to get summer associates or internships in law firms after their first year of law school, I went and had an internship at a well-known advertising agency down in Miami, Florida. And I was like, oh, this is certainly a funny experience. I think from the outside, many of my peers in the internship were like, "Wait, you're in law school. You're also a few years older than us, like, this is our freshman year of college internship. What are you doing here?" And I was like, "I just really like it, and if I don't try it on for, I'm not going to know if it's something that's worth pursuing after I get out of law school." So I did it. It was a fantastic experience. It did confirm I did not necessarily want to do that after graduating, so I kind of shifted back to, "Alright, I'm in law school. The plan was to always finish and get my license, regardless if I wanted to practice or not. So let me put my full energy into this experience." So I really went heads down, really studied very, very hard. My second and third years of law school, I wanted to graduate, you know, with a GPA I could be proud of, an experience I could be proud of. And as I was applying for jobs coming out of law school, I kind of had that same moment where I'm like, none of this really sounds right. I don't know what it looks like. Maybe I could do intellectual property law to incorporate some of my interest in advertising, but I was really more drawn to the family law side of practicing. Meaning, how could I maybe help kids who didn't have support systems around them? How could I help couples going through divorce stop fighting over things that maybe weren't worth fighting about, and kind of put the emotions aside and be a little bit more thoughtful in how they were spending their time and energy? So I said, "I'll practice for a year again to try something on for." I did it, confirmed did not want to do it, and I was able to really confidently shut the door on that, and I knew it was just not going to be a practicing attorney moving forward.

Samantha Martin 08:35

Yeah. So after you did the... you went into law for one year. Did you do something similar after that? Or was it a complete pivot?

Heather Yurovsky 08:47

Yeah, so after I realized... I had just finished a trial, and I had this moment of, "That is it. I am beyond done with practicing. But where does this leave me?" And I think a lot of people who have career coaches or are in a career transition or career crisis have that same moment where it's like, "this is a thing that I've known I have no idea what it translates into beyond this path." So I sat down, I did what many of my clients do, you know, I perused the job boards. I was like, "Well, this doesn't look like it matches me, and this doesn't look like it matches me, and what does this all really mean?" And so I kind of set aside the I'm a lawyer identity, and was like, "Okay, but what do I actually like to do, and what do I think I'm good at?" And it was more of operations roles and marketing roles because my problem solving skill set, I think, from being a lawyer allowed me to think like an operator to say, "Okay, here's everything that probably needs to get done in the order it has to happen." And then, like I said, my kind of love for advertising and branding and communications never went away. So I ended up taking a marketing role with a corporate events startup company. So they planned events for big companies, and they were kind enough to have me on to write their newsletters and help with just miscellaneous marketing tasks. And the two women that hired me were so lovely. They really were took a chance on me. I know that I did a great job, and I know I was qualified for the role, but they did take a chance because I hadn't technically done that work. And they gave me lots of opportunities, exposed me to various aspects of the business. And I'd say, that's where I really got the idea of, "Okay, I think I need to be in startups, so I get to wear a lot of different hats." And they were also so kind because they knew that it got to a point where, "We think that you probably need a role somewhere else. We think you've outgrown this role, and there's nothing else we can give you here." Yeah. So it was a really, I'd say, lovely, like empathetic way to start my career. And then so after working at the corporate events company, I took a marketing role with a travel agency. So even though they had been around for gosh, 20-25years when I joined, it operated much like a startup. And the reason that we were fit for each other was because they wanted to actually spin off a part of their business into a bachelor-bachelorette party planning company. So it's essentially taking the travel agency and rebranding it and having, you know, a slightly different target audience. So I was very excited about that opportunity because it, again, allowed me to play to my marketing strength, but also be that operator. And okay, how do we get the whole business launched and functioning and everything connected so that we can really grow it? Ultimately, I ended up leaving because, again, I felt like I hit a ceiling where I was only going to be able to do so much. I also had started to really, I think, grow out of my more traditional marketing role and into an operator role. So I had a bigger desire to work on the operations side of a business, or business where I had the ability to work more on the operations side than pure marketing. So from there, I joined a boutique spirits company. So it was two liquor brands, one that was a premium liqueur that was sold globally. And then I was brought on because they were launching, or had just launched mass market strawberry liqueur they were expanding across the United States. So they brought me on as a marketing manager, I think it was a title, a marketing director. And very, very quickly I moved into kind of head of business type role. So I was working really closely with the sales teams, with the ambassadors, training, figuring out what the distributors needed. I was deployed to different states to actually do in field work. So work with our sales teams, get to understand the customer. So again, like that marketing side, but starting to tiptoe over into sales, and then bringing all that back to headquarters, into the operations side of the business. So how could we standardize everything we were doing across markets as much as possible?

Samantha Martin 13:11

It sounds like you were starting to find your niche more and more and more in these startups and helping them kick things off. So I know that's not where you are anymore. So what was it that you eventually found or figured out that made you want to transition out of that?

Heather Yurovsky 13:30

Yep. So that was my... Working at the spirits company was my second taste of being an early stage, early hire, so one of the first 10 employees. And after four years at the company, after getting a brand acquired by a very large name in the spirits industry, after kind of successfully growing the second brand, I again took a moment to be like, "Hold on. I need to pause for a second. I've just been running really, really fast for the last four years, and I have to stop for a second and think about what's next." And when I thought about what I was good at and what I thought I enjoyed, and I am alluding to, you know, some foreshadowing here, I thought that I really enjoyed being that early employee that could touch all parts of the business, really help build it up to a certain point so that we could start bringing in specialists, and then scale even further. So I was thinking, "Okay, I spent four years being essentially the right hand to the CEO, really helping him think through things, being a sounding board, while also being an operator in the business and doing sales and doing marketing, and it was a lot to digest, but boil down to, I got to wear a lot of different hats, and I got to help everybody else do their role as well as they could. So when I came time to say, "Okay, let me pause. Pop my head up", an opportunity came across my desk to join another early stage startup. This time a social impact consulting firm, which I had no knowledge of the industry at all, and they were looking for a head of business. So very similar role, essentially, someone to, you know, plug the holes in the ship so that the ship could get sailing and then we can rebuild it as needed. So I ended up joining. It effectively functions like a chief of staff. And when I joined, I said very clearly, like, "My goal is to be a COO, and that's why I'm here." So I want a pathway to that. I'm going to work as if you know that is what I'm working towards, which it was. And so after a year, just under a year, I did achieve that COO title, and then I worked for almost another year before I admitted everything was wrong about it. So everything I had worked to achieve, the goal I had set for myself felt absolutely awful. Every day was really, really hard, and it was starting to affect my health, like I was not sleeping. I was certainly not present at home. I love my husband for putting up with me at that time because I was probably a shell of myself. I had just given too much of myself to too many companies back to back that I really, really burned myself out.

Samantha Martin 16:22

With everything that you know now looking back at it, what was causing you to burn out at that level?

Heather Yurovsky 16:30

Yeah, it's a good question.

Samantha Martin 16:32

Was it about, I guess, the misalignment?

Heather Yurovsky 16:34

Yeah, the misalignment came from really owning an identity that I outgrew. So I think early in your career it is okay to say, "Hey, give me more opportunities", or, "I want exposure to more parts of the work that are outside of my role", and say yes to a lot of things. And then that identity did not grow with me over the 10 year period. So I was still saying 'yes' to a lot and taking on far more than I should have. I was also feeling very personally responsible for every aspect of the work that I was doing. And while I do believe in accountability and owning your role, I think now that I've had some distance from it, I also believe in, you do what you can, do it in a way that you're proud of, but at some point, you have to leave it on a shelf and say, "I'm coming back to life outside of work."

Samantha Martin 17:33

It sounds like you were Jane of all trades at every place that you were. And then when you became COO, were you able to, like, let some of those things go and delegate, or were you just still holding on to that, "Jane of all trades, I can do it."?

Heather Yurovsky 17:49

Yeah. It's so funny that you say that because I did refer to myself as a Jill of all trades, and...

Samantha Martin 17:57

That's probably a better one, because of Jack and Jill.

Heather Yurovsky 18:01

Yeah. And when I became a coach, I had to work really hard on myself to drop that Jill of all trades. I had been so proud of it. I was like, "This is me. Put me anywhere. I can do anything. I can solve any problem. I can help anyone." And I think when I became COO, everybody still saw that Jill of all trades in me, as opposed to, "Okay, now she's COO. Now we can't..." I don't know if you've ever heard the phrase like, leave the monkey on the desk. So people come in with their problems and drop it on your desk, and you're like, "Great, leave it here. I'll take care of it." I couldn't do that anymore, and I was still doing it. So even though my title changed, I'd say, I was still working in a way that was not consistent with the way that I wanted to work, and I didn't really know how to find myself find my way out of that.

Samantha Martin 18:48

So did you have a leader that you could go to and tell that to, or what happened when you realized this was affecting your entire life negatively?

Heather Yurovsky 18:57

Yeah, I did. So I did talk about it, you know, with the leadership team, and we were in agreement. And I think it was a really nice way to transition out of the business, and I appreciate that they, you know, wanted what was best for me. I also felt it was best for the business, that it was time for me to move on. And to be honest, I was so burnt out that I just needed to hit a huge reset button. I needed everything to stop, like, I had went from, I want to be a COO of a bespoke consulting firm and traveling the world and helping all of these amazing foundations and businesses change the world, to I want to stock water bottles on the shelves of a grocery store. I just want a task that's repeated, that I can do over and over, that nobody else can be asking me about because it's very clear that I'm picking a water bottle up and putting on the shelf and then doing the next one and repeating. So I really had never felt that way in my entire life. I had always considered myself very ambitious, a high achiever, and nothing felt like me. So I felt like I kind of had no choice at that moment, other to say, "This has to stop. I have to do something else, and I've got to rebuild myself. I've got to strip away everything that hasn't been stripped away yet, and figure out who I am and who I want to be, and then what do I do so I can live that."

Samantha Martin 20:25

So you went back to the drawing board, it sounds like, after burnout. So what did you come out of the drawing board with?

Heather Yurovsky 20:32

Yeah, so I spent a lot of time essentially coaching myself. So to be honest, I had never heard of a career coach. This is about six years ago, and the only thing I knew in the career space was either being in people operations. So again, operations role internally at a company, or I had met somebody who was a resume writer, and I was like, "Okay, this is all I have to work with right now." I think I knew a few people in HR, larger companies. So the first thing I did because I was really down on myself, I felt like I didn't know what I was good at anymore, I didn't know what job I could possibly have if it wasn't the same thing I had already been doing, so the first thing I did was I did a bit of a tour around to the people that I knew really knew me and believed in me, and said, like, "you got to tell me, what am I good at? I'm sorry, you know, to put this on you, but I need to hear it. I need a little bit of a boost here." And once I did that kind of listening tour, or more of an audit, I'd say I had some ideas. And then that's when I went over to the next step of the fate of the process, which was talking to people and people operations and HR and the resume writer, and saying, "Hey, I'm starting to gather pieces of here's what I think I'm good at. Here's what I think that might look like in a job. But can you tell me more about what you do?" And so that to get a better understanding, again, kind of creating this hypothesis and experiment of what do you all do if that's something I think I want to do, and then how do I position myself for it. So after talking to all of them, you know, at the end of every conversation, I would say, "Is there anyone else that you think I should speak with?" So at some point, somebody had said, "Yes, I think you should speak with this career coach", and I spoke with them, and I was like, "Oh, this is a job. Interesting. I have never heard of this. How come everybody doesn't have a coach? Why isn't this, you know, more prevalent? It would be so helpful." And it was like an instant unlock for me. I think simultaneous with that, I actually had stumbled upon the Happen To Your Career podcast as well, so that was helping me get my feet under me too, along with some other podcasts and books. But I really went on this learning journey about myself and trying to take in as much information as possible. And I had that moment of, "Oh, this is a thing that I feel really passionately about. Nobody should have to go through the experience that I just went through. Everybody should have a partner that helps them say, 'Hold on. What are we aiming for here? How do you want to be? How do you want to live? What do you want to be known for?'" All these bigger questions that I think in people's careers can just kind of get set aside because you're so focused on an end goal.

Samantha Martin 23:23

I've recognized just from talking to you about your career that it seems like you're really, really good at using your curiosity to take action through experimentation, like you've done it since the very beginning, and then instead of just sitting and looking at job boards for something that you thought might fit you better when you burned out, you decided to take to the streets and start talking to people about things that you were interested in just naturally, which is very impressive, and I feel like it makes sense that you've ended up as a career coach because you were just naturally doing the things that we say that people should do unconventionally, you were already doing them. So that's really impressive.

Heather Yurovsky 24:08

Thanks. I appreciate that. Yeah, I really, I think that my career up to that point had prepared me to say, "Let me survey the land. Let me take it all in. Let me be curious about it, and also, let me not be scared to go try the next thing." If anything, I had learned over the previous 10 years that I could be whoever I wanted to be. I mean, I had worked in a new industry every couple of years. I had built companies from the ground up, and it kind of felt like there was no challenge I couldn't take on as long as it felt in alignment with the way that I wanted to work. So I'd say the last step of the process for me was really identifying my own value statement, as if I was a business before I even said I'm going to be a career coach, before I said I'm going to my own shingle and start my own business. I said, "Okay, what are my values? How do I want to operate so that I know I'm in alignment?" I needed some sort of guiding principle there, and it came down to kindness, service, growth, and impact. So I knew I really wanted to work with kindness and with kind people. So any environment that was not aligned with that was just not going to be the right one for me. I wanted to serve ambitious people, really to help them be their best, but however they defined best, and really acknowledging that everybody has different seasons of their life. And you know, if their best is becoming COO, great. If their best is saying, "Hey, I want a job that is in alignment with my values and the way that I want to work and allows me to maybe work on some of my bad habits", great. I'm here for that. I wanted to help others grow and make sure that curiosity and learning were always present. And then last, I really wanted to generate an impact. And I defined impact... this took me a little while to think of it on a different level, but I define impact as if I can just help one person be happier in the workplace, then they'll probably be happier at home, and they'll probably be kinder throughout their life to others, and then there's that ripple effect there. So I really believe in affecting change on like a one on one level, rather than working from this big global impact all the way down to the individual.

Samantha Martin 26:31

When you look back at your early career in those threads that you were enjoying, that were piecing all the different things together, what are you still able to use in your current role?

Heather Yurovsky 26:44

Yeah, I use all of it. So first and foremost, it really is hearing what other people are saying beyond, you know, the words that they're using. So what's really behind what my clients are saying. And then being able to work with them to better understand that, and then move into a little bit more of that tactical problem solving side of things too. So self awareness is incredibly important, but at some point we also have to bring it into real life and say, "Okay, how do we want that to show up? And then what are the actual changes I can be making, or how can I be talking about myself differently to get where I want to go?"

Samantha Martin 27:26

That's, I think, proof of how we can connect one industry to another, or one job to another that don't seem like they relate. But if you are interested in a, you know, in two different industries, your personal strengths, your skills, you can pull those out and say, "What did I enjoy? What did I do well in this?" And figure out how you can frame it to transition to another. So I just think your experiences back then and where you've come now seem different, but you're still, like you said, using so many of the same skills and obviously your strengths. So...

Heather Yurovsky 28:07

Yeah, there's problem solving, there's an immense amount of curiosity and questioning in a kind way. So I think it's always healthy to challenge others on their beliefs. And you know, is what they're saying, is that really what they mean? Are they trying to say something else? And then also really figuring out, okay, how can we make a system for you to move forward? How do we stop jumping to the end goal and instead say, "What is it that I think I want? Is that end goal even fit those desires?" Because people are very, very quick to say, "Here's the vehicle." But they don't stop and think about what are they actually trying to achieve. So when you can spend time there, you can better identify maybe are the multiple vehicles to get there. Now, which one do I want to try on?

Samantha Martin 28:59

Yeah, earlier when you were talking about trying out law, we realized in law school and then in your first year of law, like, "this is not a fit." Do you remember when you did all of your experimenting and started your business for career coaching? Was there a moment when you were like, "Oh, yep, this is it."?

Heather Yurovsky 29:21

Every moment. No, I think that it was a healthy restart for me on a few different planes. So one, I got to build the business side. So I really enjoy, you know, what was going to be my branding? How was I going to talk about myself, my services I was offering? Who did I want to work with? You know, do I understand that audience? So I think, you know, coaching aside, I loved getting in and being able to build another business. But really it was putting my coaching hat on and being able to have that first formal, official coaching conversation with someone. I was like, "Oh, yes. This is why I'm doing this, and this is the thing that I want to do, no matter what, moving forward." So if it ever takes a different form, I know coaching will still be in there.

Samantha Martin 30:11

So if you could talk to your early law school self now, what advice would you give her?

Heather Yurovsky 30:20

Oh, gosh. If I'm being honest, I don't know if I would give any advice. I would... I am very, very grateful for the windy path that got me to where I am today. So I think individually, each of the experiences I had were incredibly valuable. They've made me the coach and the person that I am. So I think that maybe subconsciously, what I was doing, maybe as advice, I would explicitly say, "keep paying attention to what gives you energy and what drains you. Keep paying attention to the identities that you're adopting, whether you even need to take on those identities and keep being curious and trying new things."

Samantha Martin 31:05

Yeah, that's honestly the best answer because there shouldn't be any regret looking back on your career journey, because even the bad experiences you learn about yourself, you learn some skills, like, so that's a really good answer, honestly.

Heather Yurovsky 31:18

Thanks. Yeah, I learned so much in the hard moments, and even, you know, the good moments, I think that I took for granted when I started being a coach, I was like, "Oh, I didn't realize that I had this whole other set of skills that I hadn't tapped into before, or maybe I had, and I just didn't know it, but I had also absorbed from all of the people that I had worked with." So I think that I really understand 360 degrees around an individual, but also around so many different careers and industries, because I really did have to learn many, many industries from the ground up, especially in the consulting firm I was thrown into working with finance companies, hospitality groups, I mean so many different areas of business that I can really see all the steps forward, regardless of the function or the industry.

Samantha Martin 32:13

I keep thinking back to the ladies in the startup that you first worked with that you mentioned, like, how empowering they were. Seems it could have been a game changer for you, because some, not so many, but many people have, you know, not their best bosses that are really discouraging, and they think that's all there is. But you were shown pretty early on that when you hit a ceiling, to keep on moving, you don't have to... it seems like they taught you so many lessons just from the beginning, and they were so encouraging. And that's probably why you've become the, not solely, but a big reason you've become the leader that you are because you were shown that. So I think that is an important thing to show leaders just how much of an impact you can have on even like the youngest people. Who knows if you have high schoolers working for you, or young college kids or early adult, like, so formidable, even just like letting them go or telling them to find a new job.

Heather Yurovsky 33:11

Yeah, and that's the... I think that's the ripple effect that I think of. I'm like, okay, if, let's say I'm working with a manager and we're, you know, they got the job, they're past the first 90 days, and then we're continuing to work together on what kind of manager do they want to be, and are their words and actions matching up, and if they're a better manager to their direct reports, those direct reports, if, let's say, early in their career are going to remember that, and they're going to learn from it, and they're probably going to want to emulate that type of manager in their next role, or when they are managing others. So just like everyone I've worked with, I attribute my success to good or bad. I think that happens to all of us. It's the people that we're surrounded by that really make us who we are.

Samantha Martin 34:00

Another thing I wanted to call out is how you really enjoyed each of your roles at the very beginning, it seems, maybe besides law school, but after, like, your law job, but after that, it seems like you really enjoyed it, and then you eventually got to a point where you wanted to move on. A lot of people, it seems, think that if they once loved their job, that there's something wrong with them, almost, if they're now disliking it, and you might have just grown out of your role, or things might have changed at the role. And it seems like people have a hard time accepting that it's time to move on if they once really loved their job.

Heather Yurovsky 34:39

Yeah, it's like a death in a way. We mourn what was. I think, the way to reframe it is that it doesn't fit anymore, and that's okay, because you grew, you know. Thankful... be thankful for the experience. It was wonderful. You did enjoy it.And now for whatever the reasons are that it changed, it has changed. So rather than fight that, it's probably better to accept it and figure out, "Okay, what's next from here?" And then in your next role, it is... okay, if maybe the change before in my previous role was partially because of me, did I do something "wrong"? When you're in your new role, you can continue working on that. So again, figuring out how you want to work and making sure that you are moving towards that.

Samantha Martin 35:31

So we are almost, we're close to wrapping it up. I know I already asked you to give advice to your past self, but what about... Is there... What advice would you give someone who's right there on the cusp of thinking they want to make a change, or they're burnt out, or they just want to do something different, or their work doesn't add to their life anymore? Somebody who's right there thinking about making a change.

Heather Yurovsky 35:56

Yeah. If you're right on the edge or your work is giving you pause, why wait any longer? There is no reason to sit in a state of misery to the point where you feel like you have no choice and you have to make a jump or leap or hit that big reset button. I think if you at all have feelings of that bubbling up that it's best to address it and feel a little bit more honestly in control of it. I think it puts you in a place of just much more power over how things are going to unfold.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:39

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:32

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 4 37:37

It just became very clear to me the level of unconsciousness that I had been living with and that lack of intentionality throughout my entire history.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:51

Have you ever looked at your work calendar or to-do list and thought, "I don't want to do one single thing on this entire very long list." You might think this is normal, that you should just put your head down and push through, but actually, if you experience this over and over for a long period of time, it's pretty likely a red flag that you're not working in your strengths, and it's time for a change.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:19

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it, and if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player, so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week, until next week. Adios, I'm out.

Jenna Bias 00:01

I realized it wasn't so much important, of like, what my next career title was gonna be but it was more important for me what I wanted in a company.

Introduction 00:16

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:41

Imagine you open your email and there in your inbox is a message from your ideal organization telling you about an open role they think you would be great for. After a well deserved celebratory dance break, of course, obviously, then you can pat yourself on the back because you made that happen. Okay, this might seem a little far fetched and seems sort of out there, but this could be your reality just months from now. There are ways to engineer situations to become the perfect candidate for your dream organization, and then build relationships that get on the hiring managers outreach lists. Okay, so a lot of times, if you've been a hiring manager before, it's not necessarily this formal, but it absolutely is the way that it works. As soon as you know there's a need in an organization, then you start to think to yourself, "who could fill this need?" Okay, well, if that's the case, and you know that, you can use that to your advantage in some really positive ways for yourself and the organization and the hiring managers. All this could either be your reality, but you have to be willing to do things drastically different in order to stand out.

Jenna Bias 01:56

For some people, getting specific on your role could help. But for me, getting specific on the company is what helped most. But either way, I think getting specific is what's going to give you clarity, and it's going to allow you to get to the place that where I was putting all my eggs in one basket, because I knew it was the right fit, rather than posting up on LinkedIn job boards and Indeed, and just putting your resume out there for umpteenth places like that has minimal effect.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:26

That's Jenna Bias. Jenna is an RN who had worked as a bedside nurse for her entire career. When she began to reach the point of burnout, she knew that in order to find fulfillment in her career, she needed to switch industries. Jenna began really digging into what she wanted and what she needed out of her next career change, and Jenna began really digging into what she wanted and needed out of her next career and narrowed down her search to just a handful of companies that she was really excited about. She then went above and beyond in her attempts to build relationships with people at her top target organization. You'll hear her talking about the strategy of using loom, a video messaging tool, to reach out to multiple people at this company, including the CEO. Her persistence and determination ultimately got her out of bedside nursing and into a role with her ideal company. Jenna does an awesome job explaining all of the steps she took, the tactics she used, and how she got herself in front of this organization.

Jenna Bias 03:27

I got my first degree in nutrition, and I really enjoyed it, like, I was your typical, like, nerd. I really enjoyed my classes. I loved working on group projects. And I think what it boiled down to at that time was the content. I was really interested in it. But then it came time to utilizing that degree for a career, and I was really stumped, as most 22 year olds are. So I kind of wrapped my brain, you know, I wanted to make a decision that was "stable" and that led me to nursing. So after my degree in nutrition, I got a second degree in nursing. And looking back, I think the signs were all there that it was not a good choice for me, because contrary to my time studying nutrition at Cal Poly, I did not enjoy the content. I wouldn't say dreaded studying, but you know, the joy wasn't there how it was with nutrition. But I kind of ignored the red flags, continued on, and ended up being a nurse. And of course, as I'm sure everyone can guess, that kind of misalignment continued into my career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:39

Yeah. Where did you start to recognize and pay attention to those red flags? Where did you start to first learn that maybe this isn't quite right for me?

Jenna Bias 04:49

Yeah, I think for a long time I chalked it up to like situation. So for my first nursing job, fresh out of nursing school, I was working in an emergency department. I was working 12 hour shifts. I was working night shift, and I had an hour-long commute. So just to like put that into perspective, I would leave for work at 5:30pm, get to work around 6:30, get ready, work a 12 hour shift till 7am, give report, drive home at 7:30am, shower, go to bed from like 9am to 4pm and then do it all over. So I recognized early on that it was not sustainable, regardless of if I loved the work or not, I'll get to that in a bit, but just the situational aspect of it. But at the time, I was a new grad nurse, just kind of doing what I thought I needed to do to get my foot in the door. And so then fast forward, when I got my second nursing job, it was a hospital closer to home. I was working eight hour shifts. I was working days. I liked my co-workers. So a lot of those key pieces had changed for me. So here, I thought this was going to make a big difference for me. I actually remember my husband, when I got the job, saying something along the lines of, like, "Oh, this is great. Like, I feel like you'll probably be in this job with this hospital for a long time because of all the situational aspects." But what I soon realized is the work was the same, and so that level of unhappiness was the same for me. It wasn't about the logistics, like, I didn't care if I was working long hours. Yes, not having a long commute was nice. But for me, the work was not only not filling my cup, but it was like draining my cup. Like, draining. So, yeah, I think it took a few jobs for me to realize, okay, it's not the situation, it's the work, and just kind of coming to terms with that and getting over the barrier of making the decision to finally leave this career even though I spent so much time, effort, and money to getting here.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:55

Once you made the decision that you were going to transition, what did it look like for you to decide where you wanted to focus your time and energy. What did that look like?

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:06

[9:06] I'm curious what made that so helpful, and why do you think that that worked and jived with you?

Jenna Bias 07:06

Yeah, that part was tough, too. I remember telling Phillip, my coach, in the beginning that he asked, you know, "Oh, what's some..." like a piece of advice to me that I can use along the way to kind of keep you on track, or, like, bring you back in, you know, if I ever feel like we're getting off the right path. And I told him, I was like, "I love a lot of things. I have a lot of interest. I tend to be a somewhat like, indecisive person." And then I gave them the example of, like, when I go to a restaurant, like, always want, like, try new things, and there's so much that looks good, but a lot of times I pick something and I'm like, "Oh, man, this wasn't like as good as I thought." And so I told Phillip, I was like, just remind me to, like, just pick the cheeseburger. And what that meant to me was basically, like, pick something that's rooted, that I'm rooted with, that I know is always going to be something that I'm passionate about, and bring me back to, like, what aligns with me, rather than kind of getting lost in all these possibilities. So that really helps because I felt like when I was leaving nursing that there was so many possibilities, it was a little bit overwhelming, and I didn't know how to hone in on exactly where it is I wanted to go. Which I'm sure is probably, I know there's some kind of, probably two types of people in the career change path, like, one where they want to leave their career and they know exactly where they want to go. And for me, I knew, like wholeheartedly, I wanted to leave, but I didn't know where I wanted to go. And I think that probably is a big barrier for people leaving initially, too. Because, oh, not only do I want to leave my career back, I don't have a plan of where I'm going next. Like, that's a hard pill to swallow. So for me, getting just like, kind of going back to my roots, you know, with the whole, I've always been interested in nutrition, always been interested in health and wellness, how can I take that forward and get specific on what I want to do in my career? That helped me a lot.

Jenna Bias 09:11

Yeah, totally. I think it's two parts. The first part is I got so lost in all the possibilities of different career types, and didn't know which one was going to be a good fit for me. And it wasn't until we kind of took the title, I guess, the career title off the table, that I finally started to get some clarity. So I realized it wasn't so much important, of like, what my next career title was going to be, but it was more important for me what I wanted in a company. So I got really specific about that. I knew I wanted to work still within the health space. I'm always loved, like, more of the functional medicine side, compared to the conventional medicine world that I was working in the hospital. I wanted a company that was having a big impact on people. I was, like, making a difference for the better. That was a big thing for me. Yes, I was working in a hospital setting "helping people", but it was a bit of a broken system, and there's much like a revolving door kind of analogy with the hospital. So moving forward, I really wanted a company that had a truly positive impact on people. I was got really specific on the type of culture I wanted to be in, some ideals, but not deal breakers was types of schedule I was kind of intrigued by this whole work from home wave, and I liked the flexibility of it, and I really wanted a big thing for me was autonomy in my role as a nurse, you're kind of binded by the red tape of a hospital, and it dictates your day. I really wanted a role where I could kind of like lead myself and have responsibilities that I took care of on my own. So none of those things point to one role, right? But you could theoretically find companies that really emphasize those things or prioritize those things. And when I did that and got, you know, there's several other things that I got really specific about, it ultimately led me to three companies. I think I had a list of, I think, eight companies that were possibilities, but really only three that I wanted to entertain the idea of looking into, and only one that really, like, spoke to me. It seems so weird when I found the company that I work for now, I just had this feeling like, "Oh my gosh, this is the company I'm gonna work for next", which is strange, because I never... I'm not really like a love it for sight, or like I'm blanking on the word, but you know what I mean? Like, I'm not that type of person where I think things just happen like that. So it was kind of interesting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:48

As you started investigating this and other organizations, what caused you to realize that all the work that you had done with your ideal career profile or to define what it is that you actually wanted in your next opportunity and beyond, what caused you to believe that, "No, this is actually, in fact, where I want to be and what I'm looking for."?

Jenna Bias 12:12

Yeah, actually, I never thought of this before. But it kind of reminded me when I was talking about how I felt when I was a college student studying nutrition, that's how I felt like when I found this company. I mean, I did a ton of research on them. I would read up about... I read about the CEO, and I read about their trajectory, and I would look at their website, and just kind of look at what they had going on most recently. And it was interesting to me, like, I felt like I did when I was back studying nutrition. So I think, and I think that's how a job should feel like if you're really interested into it, you're just going to perform better, be more engaged. And that's how I was even just learning about the company, let alone working for them. So I think that was a big green flag for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:58

That's interesting. And it's interesting that you're picking that up now in hindsight, too, that it was the same types of feelings. Well, one of the things that we do behind the scenes as coaches, that's where we're often trained to hone in on those types of recreations of the feelings, if you will. So where have you found that type of joy that you're looking for? Where have you found that type of environment or situation in the past? Okay, now, how do we identify where you can experience that in the future? And then how can we use that as a tool for measurement to indicate that you're heading the right direction? And it's not a perfect science by any means, but it sounds like that's part of what you're keying in on.

Jenna Bias 13:43

Yeah. And I'm glad you pointed that out, because I think at the time that I was creating my company outreach list, knew that my company was my number one. But it wasn't until Phillip was like, "Well, why are we... I was creating this to-do list of how I was going to reach out to several companies at once." And he's like, "Well, no." He's like, "Clearly, you feel some type of way about this company, like, let's hone in. Let's focus here. Like, I want you to put your efforts here." And he was the one that, really, I think, more than I did at the time, saw my draw to this company. And in my mind, I was like, "Well, no, I can't, like, put all my eggs in one basket. And I can't, you know, that might be unproductive if I'm just reaching out to one company." And I realized throughout this process that that's one of the big takeaways for me, was you gotta get me, like, on job boards, applying to all these different jobs, but it's never going to work because you're not fully presenting yourself for maybe the job that you really do want. And I think once I recognize that how if I really dedicated myself to this what I wanted, then I could get it if I navigated the right way and communicated myself in the right way. So yeah, you're right. I think Phillip, kind of, picking up on that, really, is what kind of led me to them even more because before I was kind of trying to, like, spread myself thin across the board of all companies.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:09

It's very much against conventional wisdom. Like, I heard you throw a couple of quips out there, like, "don't put all your eggs in one basket and add two or three more". But if you go after what you want, and you're focusing most of your energy on that, it becomes a lot more possible and more likely that you're going to get to what you want, which, of course, sounds logical after the fact, and when you say it that way. But when you're experiencing it, and you're going through that, you've got all the emotions and everything else that is sort of stopping you from heading towards where you actually want to go. So I appreciate you sharing that. Also, one of the things that I know was a part of your story is you did a phenomenal job not just putting effort towards this particular organization that you had decided that, "Hey, this is it. This is where I want to be, and I want to figure out if that can happen first", but also you had a great reach out strategy. Tell me a little bit about that. What prompted that, what was the situation, and tell me a little bit about what you did in the nitty gritty to be able to begin building relationships at this organization.

Jenna Bias 16:17

Yeah, I think the first part, which I kind of touched on, was like, just doing a ton of research. And that honestly came from, like, just my natural interest in the company. But I think in the long term, A, it helped me realize, "yes, this is where I want to be." And B, it just helped me foster those relationships down the road, because I was genuinely interested in these people that I was talking to. I knew about them, I knew about the company, so that just helped be more candid down the line, because I didn't feel like I was, like, meeting strangers.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:47

So when you say research, you were researching the individuals in the organization. How did you go about that research?

Jenna Bias 16:54

Yeah, first, it just started out as company research, and then so the company is technically a startup. They've been around for a couple years now, but because they're a startup, kind of, based in San Francisco, in a very, what's the word, they're in the functional medicine space, right? So it's a very upcoming topic that's on the rise. So because of that, Rupa has been mentioned on several other podcasts. My CEO has been on several other podcasts. So just one step of research led to another, and I found myself just learning a lot about the company that way. And then furthermore, when I decided to apply to certain positions, like I mentioned in their application process, they often would have a little blurb about the hiring manager there. They're very transparent about who would be hiring. And so I almost feel like it's almost like an invitation, like we're telling you, "Hey, I'm the person doing the hiring here. I'm introducing myself to you via the application." I almost felt like it would be like a disservice to not then go introduce myself, like they're almost asking you how I felt. And so and I think for me, that made it a little less uncomfortable, just kind of like cold emailing, cold reaching out, but I kept it light. I kind of echoed their casualness, which for me, was more comfortable than you know you're typically taught to be, like...

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:13

"Dear so and so. I found your company while I was searching on LinkedIn, and I..." Yeah.

Jenna Bias 18:19

Exactly. Yeah, so that made it a little bit more comfortable. So as far as reaching out, like via LinkedIn or email, that wasn't super challenging. It almost like I said, seemed invited. But then I did kind of take to the next step, and created a few loom videos to just kind of further introduce myself, but further express my interest, like face to face. Because, I mean, you can say so much in an email, but I feel like, until you hear someone out and like, see their genuine like expression, I feel like that goes so much further. And at the end of the day, lots of people are sending emails. So I feel like, if you can create a little video and kind of put a face to the name, I think for me, that ended up being like, priceless.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:02

Well, it's not perfect for every single situation, but it in your situation, I think it was highly effective. Because, one, as you said, you can put a face to the name, which creates a more personal type of approach. It also, in your case, it was a casual company already, like, that's how they operate. You had already done the research to indicate that that wasn't just a thing that they did on their website, like they operate this way, right? So in your reach outs, if you're modeling that in the same tone, it strategically feels to them like you fit. And more importantly, you'd already done the work yourself to realize that that's what you wanted, so you're simply answering their call to help them understand why you're a good fit in ways that they don't even necessarily, it's not like on a resume or anything like that, it just feels like it.

Jenna Bias 19:54

I think too. I didn't mention this, but the fear that goes along with it is like, oh, the potential them not responding, which I didn't realize now it really doesn't matter. They get so much influx of information. It's like, who cares if they don't respond? But for me, my CEO did end up acknowledging my video and just sent me like a simple email back, telling me good luck on the interview process. And from there, I ended up applying to, I think, four different times through a few different roles. And every step of the way, I just shot her an email updating her on my journey, and she responded to every single email, not being like, nothing like extraordinary, but just the response in itself was like to me, again, just exemplified this is a company I want to work for. Here's this busy CEO taking time out of her day to just shoot me a quick email acknowledging the work that I'm putting in to try and be a part of her organization. And then, yeah, as far as applying to multiple roles, it just came down to, I knew this is the company I wanted to work for. So again, rather than spreading myself then across different companies, I was like, "No, I'm just going to focus here." And even though I actually got denied initially for my current role, obviously, in the end, it ended up paying off when I applied the second time. And I think a large part of that was because I had already touched base with the hiring manager. We did already kind of have that rapport. And, yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:21

Okay, so let's dig into that for just a second, because I think that's important. First of all, I will say most people in the world, after they get turned down, are not going to go back and they're not going to continue to work at it. Also, one of the things that we see over and over again is that is something that is relatively normal. I cannot tell you, well actually, if for people who've listened more than one episode, you may have already heard that story a few times along the way, because it does happen relatively frequently. So kudos to you for continuing to persist. And also, what did that look like? Take me through, I think you said you applied for four, how many did you interview for? What did the process look like?

Jenna Bias 22:06

Yeah, so one of them that I applied for initially, to be frank, I knew was, not that wasn't a good fit, I was just like, highly under qualified. It didn't so much... I think there's a lot of situations where you can pull from your past work and kind of more fit to fit new roles. In this situation, when I tried to do that, it was a stretch, to say the least, but I gave it a go. And that was one of the situations where I did create a loom for that hiring manager as well as their recruiter, and I sent her a LinkedIn message, just introducing myself. And she was very sweet in her response, and transparent in the fact that I probably wasn't going to have what they were looking for in that role. But again, it was the response for me of how they handled it that didn't turn me away, because they were so inviting, encouraging, not everyone's gonna be a good fit for every role, so I didn't take it personally. Late, fast forward, I applied to one other role that I never actually heard back from because I think what happened is I applied to my current role, and at that point I had made contact with the recruiter. So I went through the recruiter like a phone screening, and then got to the first round interview with the hiring manager, which it went great. We really connected and talked about the role, and it was something that I thought would be like a really good fit. And then I didn't make it to the next two phases of the interview. So then at that point, we exchanged some emails. She, again, when I got the denial email, I asked her just for positive feedback, you know, what can I do differently, any recommendations moving forward. And she sent me like a novel, which was super awesome. I could tell she took, like, time out her day to give me feedback. Who, A, I'm not even going to be working at her company yet, and B, she doesn't really even know me, but I think that's because when we had our interview, like we were able to connect, even though I didn't end up being the pick for the role that time, she could still connect with me on a personal level, and we still learned a lot about each other. So to me, that first interview was still a win because we fostered like a relationship.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:12

Yeah. Wait, can we dig into that for just a second? Because I think that's a frustration for so many people. Like, hey, I'll ask feedback, and I won't get anything, But you got a novel worth of feedback, because not by accident. And yes, this is an amazing organization, and clearly they value people who are interested in them, but also they don't have infinite amounts of time too. So the reason this worked is you'd already started to establish some kind of beginnings of relationship with the CEO. I'm sure those emails were probably forwarded. I don't know, but probably they were forwarded over to recruiting, or maybe they were BCC'd or something else along those lines. You had continuous touch points all along the way. Maybe they talked behind the scenes, maybe they didn't. But then you had, as you said, began to build a connection during that interview, and you had focused on that, so you now have the beginnings of a relationship. So now it's not just some random candidate asking for feedback, it is this person that I know and had a great time with. And that's totally different when you go to make the ask, than just some random person that's out there. So I wanted to take a moment and just break that down, because you did a really nice job allowing it to get to that point so that it worked when you went and asked for feedback.

Jenna Bias 25:29

Yeah, I think a big thing for me, I'm sure it's probably for other people as well, is because I had all those touch points and in situations of like, asking for feedback. I know big thing for me was like, kind of a fear component. I almost felt like, "Oh my gosh. Am I reaching out too much?" You said, "Oh, they're probably talking behind the scenes, like, in a good way", but in my mind, I was like, man, are they like, "Oh, that Jenna girl. She applied again."

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:56

"Never hire that one, xxx.",

Jenna Bias 25:57

Yeah. Get rid of her. And of course, that's just your like, limiting beliefs that I'm sure everyone has, but no. So then after I reached out, got that feedback, it was great feedback, I rather I wasn't, obviously, I was disappointed. But like you said, a lot of people, when they get denied, are kind of turned off. And like, maybe would like go the other way. But I was just more intrigued, and I was more like, on board. I sent like, a really nice email back, and I told her, I was like, "I'm gonna continue to, like, watch your job board. But if a new spot opens up in the future, like, please do consider me." And so sure enough, I did watch their job board here and there. And I think it was two or three months after I initially applied for that role, that I happened to notice that the role was up again. And so I just reached out directly to the hiring manager before submitting an application, just to kind of express my interest. And right away she was like, "Oh yeah. Like, you were actually on my list of people to reach out to this week. I definitely would want you to reapply. If you could just go ahead and submit the application, we'll go through the process of interviewing again." So I did that. And then obviously, this time, I made it through the entire interview process, which was that initial interview with the hiring manager again. I did a mock demo. So big part of my job is doing demos for my company. So they just, you know, it's kind of a make sure you can do the job kind of thing. And then I had an interview with my manager's manager, and then the last kind of piece was a call with the CEO. So that was the steps.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:30

What was different? Do you know now what was different, or what took place behind the scenes, where you said, "No, we're not proceeding further than the process the first time", but then the second time allowed you to. I know from being behind the scenes in many different organizations, all different industries, there's a million different things that can come up that might create that situation. But I'm curious, do you now know what caused that, or what was happening behind the scenes?

Jenna Bias 27:57

Yeah, and I think this is valuable for people who are, like, "switching industries", which I was. A big, like, limiting belief for me was, you know, why, especially in this industry, I was like, "why would they want to hire a nurse? Like, my job is so different. And on paper, I'm missing some key things that they're looking for." And I think to an extent that is true, like there is certain things that they are hiring for in their new candidate. And I think the first time around, they found that candidate who had all those things. Things that I, you know, no matter how long of a nurse I was, I was never going to have, because they were totally out of my realm. But in the second time around, I think they're a little bit more lenient on what things are willing to give up in hiring a candidate because I'm exemplifying so much else in staying consistent with applying, building these relationships, staying committed to the company, I think those things like speak volume and so I think they knew that I was a good enough fit, even without maybe some of those key bullet points on the application because of the actions I was doing. So yeah, I think to answer your question in a more concise way, the first time around, there was like a perfect candidate who met all the bullet points that I was never going to have because of my experience, unless I went and got additional experience. And the second time around, I think because of my actions and they knew me, they were willing to kind of look beyond some of those bullet points that I missed because of what I had done leading up to that second interview.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:30

I think that is super cool. There is, well, it's no longer there. We had a section of the Happen To Your Career book, actually, that when I first wrote it, I think it was version three or four that was all about how to engineer the situation to become the perfect candidate that when a position actually opens up, then you're on the list for that hiring manager. And we ended up scrapping it for the final version of the book. But I think the concept is super true to what you experienced, even though they found somebody initially that they thought was going to be the right fit, and they were ready to go down that road, you had taken all of these little touch points, all of these different situations to where you literally were on their list when they opened it up again and they were going to call you if you didn't contact them, which is pretty cool. Nicely done. So what advice would you give to someone who's in the same type of situation where,go back a ways here, and maybe they're in the place where they've now decided they've done the hardest part, as you said, where they've decided, "okay, I know that I need to make a change", and now they're ready to make a change, and they're ready to find what is truly right for them?

Jenna Bias 30:52

Yeah, I think a few things, like, I kind of touched on this before, but getting specific whether, I mean, like I said, I think for some people, getting specific on your role could help, but for me, getting specific on the company is what helped most. But either way, I think getting specific is what's going to give you clarity, and it's going to allow you to get to the place that where I was, where I was putting all my eggs in one basket because I knew it was the right fit, rather than posting up on LinkedIn job boards and Indeed, and just putting your resume out there for umpteenth places like that has minimal effect. And I think people do that because they're not really sure what they want. They're not specific, so they're just kind of like hoping something's gonna stick. And it's just not a very effective approach. So I think once you get specific, you're able to kind of hone in on how you can be effective in getting the role you want. And then I think, which is funny coming for me, because I'm not typically this type of person, but being different, getting outside of your comfort zone, and kind of thinking outside the box, I had only ever applied to nursing jobs, that was my only career before this. And it's very cut and dry, it's very much, "Do you have the licensing? Do you live in the area? Do you have all the educational components?" It's not about creating relationships. It's not about putting yourself out there. So I didn't know that this whole side of the application process existed and was so impactful. But it is. It's like, when you go on LinkedIn or on job boards, and you look at a job and you see, oh, 300 applicants. For me, that was always really off putting because I'm just like, "Okay, I'm just one person. I'm just one application." Which you are. You are just one application. So if all you're doing is submitting your application, you're probably not gonna get it, just the odds are not in your favor, right? So I think in this job market, and in today's day and age, with just how like innovative people are, like you have to do something different if you wanna get to where you wanna be.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:54

Maybe, through this process, you have now become the type of person who is thinking differently and behaving differently. Who knows?

Jenna Bias 33:03

Yeah, man, that's true.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:06

I think it's such a great point, though, because I think that that's like a dividing line for people when you get 300 applicants in a single role, and shoot, we've had as many as 800 applicants in a single role here at Happen To Your Career, like, we're a relatively small organization. And arguably, not that many people in the world have heard about us, compared to like an Apple or Facebook or something else, Google. And that's a lot of applicants, and that can steer people two ways down the fork in the road where, "why even try because the odds are against me", or, as you said, recognizing that if there's 800 people there, you need to do something drastically different to be able to stand out, get attention, be able to help them understand why it might be worth their time. So that's super cool that you recognize that, and that you've learned that, and that maybe you're now on that way to becoming that type of person in the future.

Jenna Bias 34:03

I mean, I will say, I think a large part of learning was, you know, working with my coach, Phillip. And I think that's where, like, having a coach plays a great role of kind of bouncing those ideas off somebody and then just kind of building you up. I remember so many times I would like come to Phillip with my ideas, or, like, what I had written up, and he's like, "Jenna, you know, what to do. I'm literally just here to tell you to do it, like, to give you the confidence boost, or to give you, like, you know, just another set of eyes, to say, like, yes, that's a good idea." So I feel like a lot of times, just having that person to like, soundboard you is really helpful to kind of like, get you in the right direction.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:39

Even though I've been coaching for 20 plus years now, it still feels strange to me to some degree that we all need that, like that sounding board in one way or another. And that can literally be the difference between it happening in reality versus just staying a thought that maybe this is the right thing for me to do. And I suspect it might be. On one hand, even with a coach, it still requires that you're taking the steps forward. So really, really nice job. You've done amazing work. And I think that sometimes on these episodes, it's hard to represent in a 30 or 45 minute time period, just all of the work and the ups and downs and everything else that went into making a many month career change into something that arguably didn't fully have the resume experience for or whatever else it might be.

Jenna Bias 35:38

Yeah, I mean, I never would have got to where I am if I only did a month of work. It took several months. And I was, what's the word, I was a little hesitant, or, like, off put by the initial timelines of things. And I was like, "Oh, well, like, I'm a really hard worker, like, I will put in the work, and hopefully it'll happen sooner", but some things are out of your control. So it's like I could do all of the modules, and I could do the legwork of digging into my strengths and getting specific about what I wanted in a career and in a company, but I couldn't create the role, and I couldn't create the company's timeline for me, right? It had to be... it's a two ended spectrum. So it's like I was ready, but they needed to be ready too, and for my current situation, they weren't ready for me for six months. So I just feel like, you know, if you go into it, yes, work hard and be persistent, but know that you can't control the timeline.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:38

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:30

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 37:36

Everybody gets days where, you know, they hate their job, or things are not going well, or they might be a bit lower than they normally are. It's just hard to kind of tell people that that's how you feel almost every minute of every day. And I felt like my energy, it's just taken all of my energy just to get through the day. Never mind thinking about what I wanted to be doing and how to get out of it, that was way past me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:00

Since 2013, we've talked with many thousands of people about their career changes, about how they're thinking about work, about what has been great, what has been terrible, and everything in between. So consequently, we get a lot of insight into how people struggle with career change, as well as how they're successful in career change. Something I found really fascinating is when people have been struggling in the wrong career, in the wrong roles that are unfulfilling for many years, not just like one or two or three years, but many, many years, maybe even changing roles multiple times.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:46

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it, and if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player, so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week, until next week. Adios, I'm out.

Julia Caban 00:01

I finally realized that it's okay to not settle. And it's funny, because I feel like I haven't settled in any other area of my life. And so why would I do so professionally?

Introduction 00:13

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:42

Okay, what happens when you went through school, and then college, and then you sort of always knew what the next step would be? But now you're at a point in your career when you can't see the next step anymore, and it turns into a special kind of torture. It can seem like a trivial thing, but it's actually a very real and jarring experience when you're used to knowing what is coming for you, what is the next step, and always being able to imagine your future, turns out it's now up to you to figure out what to do next. But luckily, you're listening to the perfect podcast to help you figure that out.

Julia Caban 01:19

This is where I feel like I do my best is during interviews. I just wasn't able to get them because I wasn't good at explaining what I've done and how it lines up with this organization's role they're hiring for.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:32

That's Julia Caban. Julia had committed to serving in the US Navy when she graduated from college, and the military is great at letting you know what your next steps will be. And it's easy to envision your future as a service member. But when Julia decided to transition out of the military, she struggled with the lack of structure that she'd always known and a lack of resources on what career she should move into. On top of that, when she began looking for jobs in the corporate world, she struggled to relate her military experience to the job postings, and she found herself considering jobs well below her military pay. Because she believed the ongoing myth– that transitioning service members have to take massive pay cut. I want you to pay attention to how Julia got really granular with job descriptions and relating them to her military experience. This gave her the confidence to go after the roles that she really wanted, also to feel qualified in interviews and ask for the pay that she truly deserved and was qualified for. Alright, here's Julia going back to her decision to join the Navy.

Julia Caban 02:40

I grew up in Northern Virginia right outside Washington, DC. And for college, I went to the University of Virginia. And I do not come from a military family at all, and I never even really considered going into the military. My parents kind of told me that if I wanted to go out of state for school, which I originally wanted to do so, I kind of had to figure out how to pay for it. And a family friend who was in the Navy said, "You know, I think you'd be great for this, and it'll get you through college, you'll have a job, and it'll open a lot of doors for you, and you'll also be able to obviously contribute to this greater mission." And I kind of said, "Sure, that sounds good." I was 17 and probably didn't know what I was getting myself into. But I received an ROTC scholarship. Ended up staying in state for school, and pretty much from day one of college, I knew that I would be entering the Navy as soon as I graduated for at least five years. And kind of the overarching role that I did in the Navy, I was what they call a Surface Warfare Officer, and they always kind of refer to that as the jack of all trades, because you have the operational side, which is ship driving, learning the combat and engineering systems on the ship, and then you have an administrative job, which changes all the time, and it's really, you get to do so many different things. And that was one thing I always really liked as well, was just the constant variety.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:10

So what prompted you to decide to get out after five years? Tell me a little bit about that transition.

Julia Caban 04:18

Yeah. So any ROTC contract the minimum of time. Minimum amount of time you have to serve is five years, and you have to decide at least about a year in advance before the end of your contract if you're going to try and do something differently. And I, for me, it came down to a few different factors. Like most jobs in the military, there's kind of one path. There's not really multiple different routes you can take. And I had seen what my path would look like, and it was not something I wanted to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:52

What would you have been doing at that point?

Julia Caban 04:55

So the ultimate goal for SWO, is what they call it, to command a ship. And basically I would have gone into two to three years of shore duty, which is, you have a slower pace of life, things are a little bit more relaxed. But then after that, which you can't just sign on for a few more years, you kind of have to do the whole nine. And it's, you're working 14 to 18 hour days, you have absolutely no semblance of a life, and you don't really get much say over the actual job you'll be doing. It's all very arbitrary, more or less, and I just kind of, I would see that as a junior officer, and I saw what the life of those leaders looked like, and I just could not picture myself doing that whatsoever.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:44

So when you transitioned out then, what was the most difficult part of that transition?

Julia Caban 05:53

I'd say two things. The first is that I genuinely had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do. And I don't know why I thought this, but I was truly convinced that I was just going to wake up one day and know. And that it was just going to dawn on me, and then I'd be able to make some moves.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:11

You're not the only one, Julia. I think that's how many of us. That's what I thought. That's honestly the way I thought at one point in my life that it was going to work. So you're not alone.

Julia Caban 06:21

The better. And then the second fun thing that we all experienced was I left the Navy in May of 2020, and so the pandemic had just started, and I was terrified about finding a job. So I think all of those factors just really made it a very challenging, much more challenging transition than I expected.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:45

So when you started making that transition, where were you focusing your time and attention? How did that look for you at that time?

Julia Caban 06:59

So there were a ton of kind of veteran transition programs, and that's really what I focused on. And they're all truly, I do believe, amazing resources, but the crux of the issue is still the same that if you don't know what you want to do, which I absolutely didn't, then you're going to still end up with a job that you don't want, which is exactly what happened to me. I was presented a job opportunity, and before I even accepted a job, it wasn't really in line with any of my needs, but I just felt kind of desperate, and felt like nothing else was going to come up. And I figured, well, the best way to find a job is to have a job, so I kind of just took whatever I could at that point.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:45

Do you still feel the same way, like, if you're looking back at that now, do you feel like that was the right move for you at the time, or would you have gone back and done things differently with, I mean, it's easy to say hindsight is 2020 because it is, right? But how do you look at that time period now and those decisions?

Julia Caban 08:05

I definitely wish I could have done things differently. One thing that Phillip really helped me work on was thinking about what I actually want and not what I don't want, which is all I was focused on, was I really wanted to do something completely different from the military, without, like, without totally being able to say why. It wasn't about what drew me to that job, it's what drew me away from the military. And they're not this new thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:37

They are not the same thing. What you're running from versus what you're running to have a tendency to be very, very different sometimes. And it's not always the opposite, too. A lot of times we think, "Well, it's the opposite of that", but not always the case. So what did that look like for you when you took that role, I heard you say, "it didn't line up with some of your needs." what's a couple examples of those needs that it wasn't quite fitting?

Julia Caban 09:06

So at the time I, and I still feel this way, given my current life situation, I did not feel like a remote role would be the best for me. We were going into the pandemic, my husband was going on deployment. The idea of kind of being alone in my house all day for however long on end, just did not sit with me. I love working with people. I love being around people. That's what I did every day in the military. So that was a big one. I'd say the second one was the salary. And I had all of these narratives in my ear when I was transitioning out that expect to take a massive pay cut. And I did take a massive pay cut, and I thought, "Okay, well, this is what's supposed to happen, so this is okay." And I never even really thought to think that I should shoot for something better and something more in line with my salary goals, which it's a very hard thing to talk about in.. it's very normal in the military, because everybody knows how much everybody makes, but as soon as you're out, it's like a very taboo topic, and I was not used to that at all.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:15

It's very weird in many different ways that it is so taboo. And I'm not sure that it always creates a, I don't know, I'm not sure it creates a healthy environment. But that might be another podcast for another time. But here's what I'm really curious about for you, I heard you say that people tell you just to expect a pay cut. Do you still feel that way, or do you feel that that is misguided? Tell me just how you think about that now? And what advice would you offer other people transitioning out of the military for how to think about it?

Julia Caban 10:53

I definitely think it is misguided, and I think it speaks to people who have had negative experiences and kind of pass those along, as opposed to what they should be doing, which is seeking to help out the people who are coming after them. And I also think there's another component to that as well, where every person who I've ever known in the military has a giant skill set that is truly, in my opinion, unprecedented. And I think that so many people don't know how to market that skill set and how to talk about it, and I think that's where one of the many contributing factors to why so many transitioning service members take a pay cut is they don't have the knowledge to really define and explain their experience. And it's still something that it's hard for me now to fully explain to people what I did in the military. I've gotten a lot better at it as working through coaching and things like that, but I think that being able to describe the work you actually did in line with a future job that really is at the same level you are at is very, very challenging.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:12

So my question then, for you, is when you started thinking about this differently, when you started defining what you're running to, what helped you the most move through this in a way that was useful to you to target what you want, but also to help other people understand what you bring? Because in my opinion, you bring a huge diverse skill set and experience that.

Julia Caban 12:41

Yeah. I think two things. One is, and I feel like so many other transitioning service members would struggle with this as well, but the kind of notion of it's okay to be selfish. I truly didn't think that I was allowed to feel like I wanted to be picky, and even when I accepted my first role, which was far from ideal for me, I still kind of felt, "okay, I just feel so grateful to have a job." And I feel like, you know, I wake up every day grateful to be alive, but the bar has to be a little higher than that to really thrive. And I feel like that was one big thing of, okay, how can I give myself permission to be selfish and think about the ideal situation for me? And then I think the second thing was getting extremely granular with the jobs that are out there. I would... I kind of had an idea of the industry I wanted to go into. And I would tell Phillip, "I'm looking at a job description, I don't know what any of these words mean." And he'd be like, "Okay, Julia, let's print it out, and we're going to go word by word, and we're going to translate that into words that make sense for you." And it is a skill to learn how to read a job description, especially coming from a non corporate world, and just really getting to that level of detail was so helpful for me. And saying, "Okay, this word means X from my experience, and here's how I can reframe this to say exactly what I'm trying to say in words that other people will understand."

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:26

That is really interesting, first of all. Because I heard you say, "I wasn't used to being selfish", and I would say arguably, that what you have done and what you were wanting actually isn't selfish, but we have a tendency to think that it is that way as a society. But really, I would say it probably falls under getting what you need so that you can serve other people even better. And you're probably, I don't know, you can tell me, but I would guess you're probably a much better performer in the roles that you've actually enjoyed versus the ones that are just taking, taking, taking from you. Is that a fair assessment?

Julia Caban 15:04

Absolutely. And I think it's that reframe of that mindset that can help people think about their own needs, and not just, "I should be doing this, or I should just feel lucky to have the bare minimum", if that makes sense.

Julia Caban 15:20

[16:17] That's a good one. I would... I think I know it's not a great idea to think about what we don't want in general, but I do think that's a good starting point of, "what is something that maybe I didn't enjoy from my previous experience that I would like to change, and to really just own that desire?" And I don't think it's too much, and people are allowed to want the things they want out of something that takes up eight plus hours of their day. And I think that's a really great place to start is, where are the gaps between what I've done and what I would like to be doing? And I think another thing that has really helped me, that Phillip has helped reframe me is it's not about just the job I want, it's the life that I want to lead. And sometimes you can want a job, but it's not compatible with the life that you want, and you need to be able to distinguish those differences. And I think by keeping the ideal life as the priority, you can find a job that fits within that and not vice versa.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:20

Well, I think I've been searching for a while, actually, for an analogy or a way to, like, reframe that. Because that whole selfish thing is something that comes up again and again and again. But you said, "Hey, I feel grateful to be alive. But that doesn't necessarily mean I'm anywhere close to thriving." Right? And it really is that same situation for "I feel grateful to have a job." And that part is good, however, being grateful to have a job does not mean that you can't ever want something more in any way whatsoever. So I appreciate you pointing that out. And the thing I wanted to ask you about having been through this type of transition yourself, what would you tell people that want to make a similar transition how to refocus and get what they might want or need, rather than just leaving it unchecked because it falls into the selfish category?

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:28

We have so many people that come to us focused on the job aspect. But to your point, the job isn't necessarily that useful unless you understand what is the type of life that you're trying to build. What does that look like? What does that involve? Who does that involve? How does that work per se? And if you're building towards that perpetually, it's much easier to see whether something fits into that or steers you away from that. So I appreciate you pointing that out. And what I'm super curious about because you made an initial transition, and it turned out not to be as good of a fit as you'd hoped. Can you tell me a little bit about what you transitioned to initially in your, we'll call it your, I guess, second career change, because anywhere from the military into one type of job left that and then moved into working with Amazon, right, for a while?

Julia Caban 17:28

I did. And this was, I think if I could pick one thing to do differently during my coaching time, this would 100% be it. I sort of had these major compounding factors in my life that I was really not expecting. My husband and I bought a house, and two months after I moved into it, he was deployed, but we found out we were moving so that was kind of weird factor unexpected number one. A couple weeks after that, I lost my job, and then I also was unfortunately going through some pretty serious health issues at the time as well, and I was just feeling extremely lost, and we were about to make our move. And I think I was both struggling personally, professionally, but also with kind of my own identity within that move. And I thought I need to be in a space where I feel kind of safe to be a military spouse and have that accepted. And again, I just picked one criteria and ran with that, and I knew that company is very supportive of both ex military and military spouses, and I kind of felt okay this is a pretty safe bet for me, which it was, again, did not meet the salary requirements for me. It was really not supportive of the other personal things I had going on in my life, and I ended up with that job pushing myself to this completely unnecessary breaking point that I completely inflicted on myself. And I think if I had again, looked more holistically and not just that one thing, then I could have avoided all that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:09

What prompted you to realize it was time to leave Amazon?

Julia Caban 20:15

I think there was one big thing, and it's a kind of a crappy thing, but it's also, I kind of believe in these signs from the universe. And I went to the doctor, and it was a Tuesday, and he said, "You need to come back in for an unexpected surgery on Friday." And that was not how I pictured that day or that week going, but it was a wake up call that I was pushing myself way too far for really no reason. This was not my dream job. This was not where I wanted my life to be going. I just, I kind of had some identity issues, some pride issues to work out. And that was the universe giving me a wake up call that this was not the path for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:02

I've had many of those experiences over my lifetime, and I have also found that they serve really well as wake up calls. So once you got that wake up call and went through that set of experiences, which sounds challenging, to put it at the very least, what did that cause you to do? Or when did you start taking action? Or what happened from there?

Julia Caban 21:10

From there, I basically told Phillip, I'm all in. I'm trusting you. I'm not going to settle for my next role. I'm going to give myself the time that I need to, kind of physically get past what I'm dealing with in my personal life, and then I want to hit the ground running, and I'm not going to settle for anything less than what I want, even if it takes longer than I want, even if it's hard and frustrating, which it was all of those things, of course, but that was kind of what I decided was no more settling, because I settled twice, and it did not work out the way I wanted to. And so I think that was, once I committed to that things really started trending up and making and I started making a ton of progress.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:21

I think what's really interesting that I found in, not just your story, but you know, many of the stories that we share on this podcast, but I've also experienced it too, is that things are going to be, there's always going to be challenges. It's always going to be hard in one way or another. So do you want it to be hard because you are settling for something, or do you want it to be hard because you're going after what you really actually want? And that's the sort of logic that I keep coming back to year after year after year. Because everybody has challenges in their life, and they look very, very different. And the challenges in something that you really want to be doing, at least I've found, are far more palatable. They're better challenges. They're better problems than going after an area that you just really don't want to be in or you've settled for. So have you had, has your experience been similar to that? Or how would you describe how you think about it now, after settling a couple of times as you said?

Julia Caban 23:24

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's kind of where I think I'll approach things whatever I do moving forward . It'll always be hard, but the reasons it's hard are completely up to you. And that is, I think just after settling twice and then not settling, and seeing how rewarding that can be, and getting that one win under my belt, it's the kind of, you know, everyone needs, like, one good win sometimes. And that's how I felt. And I thought, "okay, I can not settle moving forward. I can dream bigger. I can go after even more next time around", because I finally realized that it's okay to not settle. And it's funny because I feel like I haven't settled in any other area of my life, and so why would I do so professionally?

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:15

Oh, that's interesting. That's kind of fascinating.

Julia Caban 24:19

Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:19

When did you realize that?

Julia Caban 24:22

Oh gosh, man, I don't know. I think probably a month before I got my job. You just take inventory of the things that are otherwise going on. And I'm always... I'm the pusher in my relationship and in all aspects of my life. I'm always pushing for the best and the next thing. And I realized that I can't do that in every single area of my life, except for my job. And yeah, it's a different mindset. I feel like, when you're kind of at the mercy of somebody else, which you are in any kind of job situation, but that's still not a reason to not push for what you can... the best for what you deserve, I guess.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:09

So tell me a little bit about what you do now, what's your title? Tell me a little bit about what your work looks like.

Julia Caban 25:18

Yes. So I'm in internal communications and employee engagement. And I do a lot of writing, which is by far one of the most favorite aspects of my job. It's something that I knew I had a strong skill set in before starting this and I really wanted to take into my next job. And then, as for employee engagement, it's kind of a mix of things like events, different internal functions that keep people connected to the company and our overall mission.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:50

Where did you figure out that you wanted to carry writing over into this opportunity?

Julia Caban 25:59

I think once. I think one thing Phillip... Once he was able to get into my head that I needed to stop thinking about the things I don't want and look back to all of the things that have brought me joy, one thing that I kind of realized that stuck out to me was during my time in the military, I had always wanted to become a public affairs officer, which is kind of their version of a journalist. And unfortunately, it never worked out for me during my time in the military. It's a very competitive field, and I wasn't selected. And I think because of that, I kind of wrote off that whole concept, and that desire never went away. I mean, I literally was trying for four out of my five years in the Navy to do this. And once I kind of realized, "Okay, just because it didn't work out in that situation, it doesn't mean that desire left." And I was able to really take that knowledge and get really clear on how I wanted my next role to look. And I wanted something in that industry similar to that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:36

That's really cool. One that you realize that, and two that you now have found that in this latest version of your career. So tell me a little bit about how did... Let's get really granular for a little bit here. How did you go from working at Amazon, realizing, "Hey, this is not quite the fit that I'm looking for." And then what were some of the key milestones and steps that had to take place for you to, on the other end of this, except this opportunity that is a much better fit for you?

Julia Caban 27:41

I think again, one thing that really helped me was all of the job description nitty gritty where I would look at a job that was interesting, and we would go line by line. And I found that when I really took the time to understand what the description was actually saying, 9 times out of 10, I had done something that very much kind of checked that box, especially pursuing being a PAO in the Navy. I had so many side projects I did during my time, and I realized I've done this, I've done this, I've done this, and it was one of those things where I realized I have to tell them how my experience correlates to what they're going to ask me to do. It's not their job to decipher that from my resume. It's my job to explain that more clearly, and when I was able to really get to that level of detail and say on my resume and in an interview, "how can I portray that they're asking me to do X in this job? How can I show that I have already done that and I have that skill set?" and that's where it got really down to the nitty gritty, and just getting to that level of detail was so helpful and really made all the difference.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:01

What took place from there for you? After you started realizing that, "Hey, it's my role", which I think that's a very uncommon realization, unfortunately, and I'd love to change that, so I'm really glad that you pointed out, "Hey, it's my job to be able to make sure that I'm communicating clearly how I fit what this organization needs", right? But once you have that realization, once you started getting into the specifics, what happened next that led you towards this role?

Julia Caban 29:28

I feel like that was kind of the beginning of, I felt like I kind of had this dead period where I realized that I was working, I was reaching out, I was applying, and for two weeks, absolutely nothing happened. And then everything happened all at once. I had zero prospects, zero anything, and then I had four interviews lined up. And speaking of kind of the job description concept, while it was great to really pair what I've done to different parts of the job description, it also, I didn't check off every little bullet in the job description. And I used to look at that and think, "Oh, my God, I'm so grossly unqualified for these roles." And one interesting story was I had made it all the way through an interview process with this one job. I had four interviews. They had asked for 10 years of experience in this very niche field, and I didn't even have 10 years work experience, but I ended up making it all the way through, and I wasn't offered the job because they told me they actually thought I was too senior. So I think also just being able to take the job descriptions with a grain of salt was good, but yeah, once I was able to really get that detail down, I had all of these interviews lined up, and I did tell Phillip this is where I feel like I do my best, is during interviews. I just wasn't able to get them because I wasn't good at explaining what I've done and how it lines up with this organization's role they're hiring for, and I felt like after that, really, things started to get a lot more in a state of flow because I do feel like I do pretty well in interviews.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:12

I can see why. You know you're such a great communicator, And what caused you to realize that you needed or wanted help?

Julia Caban 31:23

So one thing I feel like I'm always doing is I'm always thinking about the next step. I'm kind of a, I guess you could say a daydreamer. I'm always thinking about the future and what I want, and I always can picture it very clearly. And I got to a point where I would wrap up my day and I would spend probably two to three hours on my couch at the end of the day Googling, you know, "how do I figure out the right career for me?" And doing that day after day after day, you'd think I'd realize that I don't think I can get there on my own. And it wasn't until, I think, all of the we had our move coming up so many different factors, and I started thinking about and picturing the future, and I couldn't picture anything, and that really scared me. And it scared me enough to saying, "Okay, it's time to reach out." Because I don't have the picture anymore, and that's something I've never been able to not have.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:24

What advice would you give to people that are in that place right now where they've kind of always known what the next thing might be for them, but now they're questioning that, or now they don't necessarily know what that can look like?

Julia Caban 32:39

I would honestly, I mean, tell them to reach out to somebody and ask for help because I don't think I really understood how normal it is to have a career coach and how there's a whole reason that your team dedicates their lives to this is because everybody, at some point or another, will find themselves in a similar situation, and it's okay to reach out and ask for help. And I think that, I don't know if I could have figured it out on my own, but even if I did, it would have taken me a long, long time, and time is all we have. So I kind of wanted to learn these lessons and get through that faster. And that would be my biggest advice, is help like, have someone, reach out to somebody who can help you get really clear and it's okay to not know, but it's not okay to not do anything about it, I guess. And then I think that kind of what I was saying about how I left because I just didn't see the path ahead in the one way to climb the military ladder. And I would just tell anyone to really define success for yourself because the military has one path to success, and that's how that organization needs to be. That's how it needs to function. But that's not how the real world functions, and whatever is success to you is really all that matters now. So...

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:49

How has your definition of success changed?

Julia Caban 34:16

I used assessment working all the time because I worked all the time in the military. And I thought that your whole life needed to be your job. And it wasn't until I realized how much I wanted my identity and my work to be separated that I was able to actually start doing that. And I feel now that, you know, my work is obviously a part of what I do, but it is not who I am, and I think that is really, for me, that's really important, and to carry that through the rest of my life. And I came from the military where your work is your identity. And I know very few people who it's not the case for them in that organization, and I'm just really happy that I was able to kind of say that's not what success means to me anymore and make a change.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:18

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:10

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 36:16

I realized it wasn't so much important, of like, what my next career title was gonna be but it was more important for me what I wanted in a company.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:26

Imagine you open your email and there in your inbox is a message from your ideal organization telling you about an open role they think you would be great for. After a well deserved celebratory dance break, of course, obviously, then you can pat yourself on the back because you made that happen. Okay, this might seem a little far fetched and seems sort of out there, but this could be your reality just months from now. There are ways to engineer situations to become the perfect candidate for your dream organization, and then build relationships that get on the hiring managers outreach lists. Okay, so a lot of times, if you've been a hiring manager before, it's not necessarily this formal, but it absolutely is the way that it works. As soon as you know there's a need in an organization, then you start to think to yourself, "who could fill this need?" Okay, well, if that's the case, and you know that, you can use that to your advantage in some really positive ways for yourself and the organization and the hiring managers. All this could either be your reality, but you have to be willing to do things drastically different in order to stand out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:42

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it, and if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player, so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week, until next week. Adios, I'm out.