177: What It Means To Be Unhackable with Kary Oberbrunner

Scott Barlow: Welcome back to Happen to Your Career. I’m very excited to bring on today’s guest. I have with me someone who has defined a way to make your dreams unhackable. We are going to dig into that and have a conversation. We had a brief conversation before we pushed record that I was excited to talk about. All that and plenty more. Welcome to the podcast and Happen to Your Career Kary. How are you?

Kary Oberbrunner: Hey Scott. It is great to be here. Super excited to talk with your wonderful people and I’m ready to be here.

Scott Barlow: Very cool. Before we jump into all of it I’m really curious how do you describe and tell people what you do these days?

Kary Oberbrunner: One word “igniter” I’m an igniter and I ignite souls. I’m an author coach and speaker. I’ve been a lot of things in my past. We’ll probably get into that. My most recent career move was twelve years as a leader in a nonprofit and I felt claustrophobic and that I had done as much as I could to create change and excitement and vision. I felt capped. After much thought and prayer I went pro with my passion back in 2012 and it has been a fun and wild ride.

Scott Barlow: The last five years of a fun wild ride. I really want to talk about that, and we will, but I’d like to go even further back for a short bit and give people a glimpse into your story. You’ve had a great one and that’s part of the reason we wanted to bring you on for this conversation. Where does all this start? Now you are an igniter and you’ve had the crazy wild ride but where does it start before that? How far back do we need to go?

Kary Oberbrunner: We can go back pretty far and I’ll give you the exciting stuff. I grew up, not with tons of income or intellect. I grew up in a blue collar home. Most of my generations of family members didn’t go to college or anything like that. As a young kid I was a big feeler and thinker. I had a stuttering problem. I started off school and very early on kids are kids. Acceptance was very important to me. Just being friends with people. They would pick on you and you’d get made fun of. From a young age I didn’t like speaking. They sent me to a speech therapist in the last 70s early 80s. They said you have a learning disability and it’ll probably get worse, and basically good luck. They didn’t have programs and knowledge like they do today. They labeled you and that was it. I went to speech therapy and found some help but words were never my friend. Words never made me strong, but weak.

Like any kid in life we experience pain. I experienced pain; Grandparents dying and that sort. Rather than sharing and talking I got into an addictive, negative habit called self-injury. It started as biting but in my teen years, which was before the internet, I became a cutter. I didn’t want anyone to know. As a young male that’s not super common. I was still an achiever and on the wrestling team but I did get addicted to self-injury and hid the secret for years through college and my first year of graduate school. Everything came to the surface my first year of graduate school where I confided in a professor because I wanted to get healthy and it backfired. This professor was not a good person and kicked me out of the program or threatened to. Thankfully the vice president stuck up for me. He got me help. In my early twenties, I was about to be married, and I had an early midlife crisis at that young age. I needed to come clean because I was an imposter.

Scott Barlow: Let me ask about that. I feel like I am woefully ignorant about self-injury addiction. For my benefit and others what is something I don’t know or would be surprised about that?

Kary Oberbrunner: So basically, fifteen percent of young female’s self-injury. They basically create pain through a number of things: burning, biting, and cutting. What they are doing is re-creating a painful situation that they can control. A lot of times you see self-injury when people feel out of control. It physiologically releases endorphins. Sometimes you hear people say they just want to feel something because they just feel dead and numb and want to feel alive. They want to see themselves bleed because no one sees their pain on the outside. We live in a superficial world where we just say how are you doing? Oh fine. You can begin to feel like everything in your life is fake. You aren’t okay and self-injury can be a form of you trying to be authentic with the fact that you don’t feel well. It’s not a sign of death and destruction and suicide usually. It’s a coping mechanism that helps you make it.

Scott Barlow: That’s really interesting because we spend a lot of time on this show talking about how to be more authentic. Again, completely naive I didn’t realize that those two were related in that way. That is really interesting to me. How on earth did the rest of this happen in terms of you going from asking for help, getting denied help, someone else stepping in, and you have this very early midlife crisis? Take me through that.

Kary Oberbrunner: I did go to counseling. I tell people you probably haven’t self-injured but we all actually do. We don’t all believe our potential. We self-sabotage. Ask any entrepreneur and anyone will admit to self-sabotage. I got through it by focusing on how God wants perfection. I gravitated toward that. You either gravitate toward religion or rebellion.

Scott Barlow: What do you mean?

Kary Oberbrunner: Most humans, in my opinion, and I’m going to go a little faith on you, will not be a soul on fire unless you have a connection with your creator core and your community, otherwise we feel disconnected. To feel connected to our creator, some people are going to say “by golly I’ll just work my way, I’ll just try my hardest and be good, and be my best.” They work their way, it’s called religion. Other people say “heck with it, there is no way I could be good enough. I won’t work my way to be connected with God. I might as well live it up because I don’t have a chance,” so they go toward rebellion. If you’ve heard the story of the prodigal son, those were messed up kids. The one who ate it up, drank it up, lived it up, and spent all the money we always think is the bad guy, but so is the older brother who was a complete jerk. It was revealed the only reason he was nice to his dad was he wanted his inheritance too. My point is, my crisis of faith and way of healing was to realize that I can go to God completely pissed off, completely angry, and completely upset, because that is what actually starts the healing. I stopped pretending with people and God. Trust me, prior to this, you looked at my life on the outside and thought this guy has perfect grades, titles, and etcetera but on the inside I was completely a mess.

I found incredible healing and freedom from being real with how I felt to God. I found healing in that situation. I did a lot of journaling. Words became my friend. And I think those were the beginning stages of becoming a writer.

Scott Barlow: I was going to ask that. How did some of the stuff relate together so that you transitioned from words are paining me to words are enabling me?

Kary Oberbrunner: Well, this bleeds into business and if you are an imposter. Eighty percent admit to feeling like an imposter at some point in their life. I’ve done master research in the imposter syndrome. What is the imposter syndrome? I shouldn’t belong here, don’t belong here, shouldn’t be here, I’m not qualified enough, if people only new my story or what I did this morning they would think I’m a loser. That’s the imposter syndrome. It’s funny because we think it will disqualify us in the business world but in reality it’s what qualifies you. What is hilarious is that I have a doctorate and master’s degree in seminary - meaning bible stories. I have zero formal education in business and yet I’m often asked to consult with large businesses for business and marketing. I’m very clear that I don’t have the credentials and I think the fact that I admit it makes me different and they realize I’m not pretending. The previous people focused on their degrees but I come in and be real and they can relate. You become a magnet for the people that matter but you repel the other fake people because they realize if they get close they may have to admit their stuff. I think that is why our brand has blown up. People are attracted to authenticity.

Scott Barlow: Do you think that there will become a time where authenticy will become more normal. Right now I think part of the attraction that I find, and see a lot of the same benefits, in our business is because it’s so different right now. I’m curious what your thoughts are because you’ve spent a lot of time thinking about this? Do you think it’s realistic for it to become more normal?

Kary Oberbrunner: I think people are too authentic in the worst way. Let me explain: Social media. They say I’m a business owner, an entrepreneur, I’m doing a side hustle, I like clients, but then they go through the line at McDonalds or somewhere and don’t get their food right and they quickly pull up Facebook and say that McDonald’s sucks and so on. They have victim talk. Victims lay in bed with blame, excuses, and denial. Victors take ownership, put their oar in the water and move forward. Ownership, accountability, and responsibility - OAR. I can tell the losers and winners on social media in about two seconds. The winners are the people who are adding value to others and exhibiting ownership, accountability, and responsibility. You may say how is that possible because I don’ know anyone like that on Facebook. I’m not the end all but go check out my page. I get tons of responses and reactions from creating value for people. I’m not authentic on social media when I say, my wife and I just had a fight and she’s...... When you are a business leader or entrepreneur with a social media account you are telling the world to follow because you know where you are going, you are getting results, and you know how to help. When you air your dirty laundry in the name of authenticity it’s not helping anyone. I know it sounds like a paradox but I’m talking about selective sharing when the context is right. You are not a differentiator when you are authentic online with your rage, anger, disappointment and frustration. That’s not a differentiation, that’s what everyone is doing. I’m talking about authenticity that is thoughtful, redemptive and proves a path and way forward. There are three tones for any business, book, and leader.

Scott Barlow: I’d say one hundred percent of this applies to any job seeker, career change, or any situation where you are formally or informally a leader or somebody that is looked to for one reason or another. Yes please share.

Kary Oberbrunner: Again, that victim and victor was not my own. Some things that are my own I’ll claim, otherwise I’ll tell you who said it. No one knows who came up with that. The next one is not my own either. There are three tones for any book or social media. Your social media has a tone. Just like a radio station has a genre so does your social media. If a radio station plays pop, opera, and rap in one day they will lose their listeners because confusion repels but clarity attracts. If you go to my social media it is on par and brand with igniting souls. That is the radio station I play. If my account ever got hacked people would know within three seconds that it wasn’t me.

The three voices you can have in any business or book are Sage, Sherpa, or Struggler. Sage is the style that says I’ve arrived, I know the secrets, I’ve found the path, the Holy Grail or elixir. Come sit at my feet and I’ll share my knowledge. That is an Oprah, Tony Robbins, a Jack Welch. They present themselves as Sages.

Other people present as Sherpas. They say I was stuck, I did have problems and didn’t know where I was going but I found a way and got up the mountain. Here’s the shortcut to get there faster. That is the style of business and books I write.

The third is Struggler. The Struggler says I see a problem. I don’t know how to fix it. If you see it too and want to learn together let’s figure it out. That is books like Blue Like Jazz by Donald Miller. He said there is a problem with religion that I’m willing to call out. I don’t have a solution but let’s find it together. Those books work as well. You can have any approach but you get slammed if you pretend you are a Sage but you are really a Struggler. You will get lit up.

Scott Barlow: Tell me why.

Kary Oberbrunner: People don’t want imposters. If you say I’ve been there, I’ve done it, I’ve figured it out come sit at my feet. People will do a little digging on social media. I saw something on my newsfeed the other day “High School Girls Discover with Detective Work Principals Credentials are Fraud” something like that. Guess what? She got fired and she presented herself as I’ve been there and done it and she got called out. She is done. That is the place you get nailed. People can accept struggler if that is how you come off. I think if you are a sage and you come off as a struggler people will call that out because they realize you can’t relate to their pain and are being fake or placating them.

Scott Barlow: If people are thinking about their social media and how their accounts project themselves or create perceptions and they are really just getting started, and  thinking about projecting an intentional perception versus accidental or a word in between, something other, how would you advise them to get started? What are a couple ways to think differently in-between going directly to Sage, Sherpa, or Struggler. How can they immediately make a major difference?

Kary Oberbrunner: Number one alignment. You’ve got to get the radio station genre right. Most people’s social media, I’m being silly, but it goes “my dogs are so cute,” then “I hate what’s going on right now with politics” then “love this video about cats” then “Going to the monster truck show tonight” and “Hey I’ve got a business. If you’re interested in coaching private message me” then “I’m just so sick of Starbucks not serving hot coffee.” That’s peoples normal social media and what I’m saying is social media today is your personal television station called Facebook Live or YouTube. It’s your own PR firm called Twitter. It’s your own publishing company called WordPress. You have everything today that people thirty years ago would die for. They would have needed to be big business to have it. The fact that you have the tools and you aren’t clear is a dangerous game. Stop, take a hiatus from social media, rebrand yourself, and understand your brand. We do it with dream job boot camp and many of our programs. Clarity attracts, confusion repels. You will keep repelling people inadvertently or intentionally the more you attach your social media to your brain without doing the important task of thinking.

Scott Barlow: This is really interesting to me. I’m thinking about it for lots of different uses. Right now we are hiring for two new team members and we are going through looking at their social media accounts and learning the stream of consciousness flow about them as people. We are getting a level of authenticity but possibly not the level they intended to share with us. In another example this is something we use all the time, reaching out to other companies we want to partner with. We sent a gift to someone the other day based on what she had on her social media because she took the time to interact with us and we learned a bunch, maybe some stuff she didn’t want us to, from her social media. It seems to me that from a small amount of intention in really trying to determine what type of channel it is, at minimum do you want to project jazz versus R&B and at least making that decision. That will cause a major difference in every aspect because people have access to it. It’s powerful and a detractor as well. We just got forty job applications for one position and a whole bunch of those people won’t progress in the process because of some of that.

Kary Oberbrunner: You go to my website and immediately you have my VPS my Value Proposition Statement. I tell people that your VPS is essentially you seeing yourself as a drive-thru restaurant. When they go to your website they are going through your drive-thru shouting, “I heard you could maybe help me but what do you serve here?” In other words, I hear you serve food here, what do you have? If the person taking your order turns around and you hear him ask his co-worker “hey this guy wants to know what we serve, I don’t know, what do I tell him?” What are you going to do at that window? You are going to drive away. What the heck, they don’t know what they serve, what is going on here? Unfortunately if I told most people, and honestly even most of your show listeners - because they are amazing - but if they are like the majority of the population, most people don’t know what they serve.

If I had a thousand dollars and said Scott told me I need to hire you, Scott said you can help me. What can you help me do? I have a thousand dollars. Most people do not know what they would say. They don’t have clarity. When you don’t have clarity about what you can do for a particular client they aren’t going to hire you.

On my website it says I am an author, coach and speaker. I’ll tell you the VPS formula - I am a ____ who helps ____ do or understand ____ so that _____. That’s it. That is your VPS. That is why you make income because you are creating value for someone in those areas.

Mine is: I am an author, coach, and speaker who helps individuals and organizations clarify (I sell clarity) who they are, why they are here, and where they are going so they can become a soul on fire, experience unhackability, and share their message with the world. The secret sauce is that I literally have a product or service for each word in that sentence. When I say I’m an author you can see it on Amazon. When it say I’m a coach I have programs. I’m a speaker you can hire me. Who you are - identity. Why you are here - purpose. Where you are going - direction. Every one of my VPS statements has a product or service tied to hit. That is where you can build a very cool life and business.

Scott Barlow: Let’s talk about that for a little. This might be a good time to shift gears. Speaking of building a great life, business, or cool anything one of the things you mentioned earlier was the concept of the biggest thing that stops us is ourselves. I really wanted to ask you about that idea of first, what is stopping us and what does it actually look like and second the idea of unhackability. I want to dig into that.

Kary Oberbrunner: Most people are getting stopped because they are thinking about themselves. I know that sounds weird. It sounds like what do you mean? I don’t think I’m good enough. Who are you focusing on? Yourself. I’ve picked up clients at coffee shops and at parks pushing my daughter on the swing. I have a term that is “show up, filled up.” Everywhere you go you are full. Meaning you do not go into any relationship or exchange empty. People feel that.

I’ve picked up $5,000 clients on an airplane sitting by a complete stranger because I’ve showed up, filled up.

Me: How you doing?
Her: Great.
Me: Where you going?
Her: Ohio. I was just at a conference.
Me: Oh really tell me about it.
Her: I was at a conference and I want to someday return as a speaker.
Me: What’s holding you back?
Her: A book.
Me: Really? I’m an author coach.
Her: Really? I’ve been working on a book, I keep getting stuck.
Me: Really? How about we in the remaining flight come up with your title, subtitle, and table of contents.
Her: You could seriously do that?

I had to shut off my phone and computer, sit there and give value to this woman for two hours. Guess what? I showed up, filled up, and she purchased and bought.

That is how you do sales. Sales is not, Oh crap! If I give my best statement they will know I have nothing else to give. If I give my best away for free no one will buy from me. That is scarcity thinking. I want people to show up filled up. Focus on the person in front of you. They have a name, fear, and desires. You have massive skills. Every one of your listeners is a guru or expert at something. The problem is they are too familiar with it. They think it’s too easy. What do you mean people don’t know how to do interior decorating, everyone knows how to do that. I want your listeners to think about what at least three people have asked their advice on. That is probably a business. It illustrates there is a need. People assume that you are credible, that is why they are asking for advice. All you need to do is find a way to monetize it. Most of us are scared to ask for money and talk to strangers. We were told that as kids don’t talk to strangers and don’t ask people for money but then we go out in the business world. We have this psychological repellent from what we think is that guy or that girl who appears salesy. Here is what I tell people: Selling is serving. Marketing is storytelling. Can you tell stories and serve people? If they say yes I say you would be awesome in sales and marketing.

Scott Barlow: I think that is true for nearly everything that requires any kind of sales, which most things do.

Kary Oberbrunner: Yes, everyone is in the sales business. Even parents trying to get their kids to eat green beans.

Scott Barlow: Oh yeah, bring on something else when that airplane isn’t working. Why are all of us so resistant to those pieces or why are more of us not relating those two together?

Kary Oberbrunner: Why are we resistant to those?

Scott Barlow: Yes particularly the selling. We just mentioned that from early on we are taught not to talk to strangers. By the way I’m mentally celebrating that I just had a conversation with my daughter the other day on how you actually talk to strangers.

Kary Oberbrunner: That is cool. I think we do not really believe that we have value and that is what it comes down to. If you honestly had a cure for cancer would you say “well you know, I know Billy has cancer and is dying, but gee, he might not like what I tell him, he might be offended or reject me?” Maybe I should just keep that secret about cancer to myself and let him go through chemotherapy again. You would be like no, especially if you had a love one die of cancer. You would say I don’t want anyone to go through that. You would be focused on them and not you. Too many of us don’t think there is a cancer, we don’t think we have a cure, and we are focused on ourselves and our own inability and that is why we get hacked. How do you get over that?

Scott Barlow: How do you? What can you do?

Kary Oberbrunner: I’ll tell you how I got over it. I said I’m going to stop judging myself. When I’m talking with someone, and this was early in my five years of going pro, and the stakes were high. My wife wasn’t the type to say hey Kary you can do anything and I’ll support you quitting your job. She was like you better bring in the money because we have three kids and we are turning down health insurance and a mortgage. I married a truth teller and I needed that. I was nervous and the stakes were high. I did a side hustle. I teach that in my book “Day Job to Dream Job.” I don’ think, if you can, that you should do just the romantic thing that never works saying I’ll quit my job and figure it out. That isn’t smart because you haven’t developed the character of a side hustle. Change of location doesn’t mean change of person. You need to become the person worthy of your dream job while you are in your day job.

Anyway, long story short I stopped judging myself when I was sitting with a potential client wondering how I was coming off and sounding stupid, and wondering what does this person need? My mind started going blank I was getting nervous. I was getting to the money part and thinking he’d probably say no. I felt awkward. All I said was isn’t that interesting. Isn’t it interesting, just when I’m about to help this guy and lead him in a deeper relationship through a coaching program that I start to get nervous. Isn’t that interesting? All I did was acknowledge the fear. I didn’t judge it or push it down because that makes you focus on it. I encourage people it’s as simple as saying “isn’t that interesting.” Use that phrase next time you feel yourself getting hacked and getting nervous.

People don’t want to be sold they want to be helped. Raise the objections before they can. I have an author program. It’s a legit, solid program that costs money because we help them build a business around their book. I know people will be uncomfortable with the price so I handle it before it comes. I say, “Scott if all you want to see is your book in print please don’t go with me. Go down to Kinkos photocopier and hand them your flash drive and they will print you a book.” If that is your goal go for it. They kind of chuckle and say that’s not what I want so you say what do you want? You stop talking and pitching and you listen. You help. When you do that and you aren’t tied to the outcome people feel it. I always put a guarantee on our products that creates more sales. If people can write down these six words which we call the Deeper Path Pay-off from one of my books The Deeper Path, it says income is never the problem. Everyone says income is the problem. It’s never the problem it all starts with clarity.

I’m going to say six words that flow from the other. Clarity produces competence. Once you are clear you know what you are good at which produces confidence. Clarity, competence, confidence. Once you have those three people listen. They pay attention. Notice currency today is not money but attention. Now you are influencing them which allows you to impact them which allows you to gain impact. Six words from deeper path pay-off are: Clarity, competence, confidence, influence, impact, and income. That is how every sale works. When people focus on the money they are focusing on the transaction rather than the transformation.

Scott Barlow: Let me pull you back for just a second because I’m curious and I don’t want to lose this. We have a couple open loops. What happens after you stop judging yourself and you are using the phrase “isn’t this interesting” to create this unhackability?

Kary Oberbrunner: Crazy story, it’s a movie analogy, which is the best. In the movie “Inception” Leonardo DiCaprio plays a guy that goes inside of dreams to steal dreams. Once he was in the dream everything was cool. He was operating inside the dream and no one knew he was trying to steal it. When he started to think about it everything got weird and everyone in the dream turned on him to tear him apart. Acknowledging “isn’t that interesting” allows you to refocus on the client in front of you. That is what I’m talking about. When you say, “oh crap, I’m starting to think about my voice and if I sound confident,” you have immediately left the scene. The client feels that. The client says whoa where did my potential coach go? You can’t be in two places at once. You are in your head right now judging yourself about your effectiveness. You’ve lost the client. Imagine a brain surgeon doing that, playing Xbox while doing surgery. No one would do that; horrible doctor. But we do that. We play around with our self-limiting beliefs and think the client won’t realize it. No, you don’t judge, but show up filled up. Refocus on the client in front of you. Play a trick, say I’m going to count how many times they say “the”. It forces you to focus. People can tell. That creates confidence. I once was around a guy who was in the room with Paula Abdul and she wanted to hire someone and every guy walked in trying to sell her. “You should hire me because I did this project, etc.” The guy, my friend, walked up to her, knelt down eye level, looked her in the eye and said Paula what do you need? That is the one she hired. People don’t want all the credentials. They want to know that you care, are listening, and will help them.

Scott Barlow: I love that. For a variety of reasons. Shifting the focus, I know there is term for it but it escapes me. Inserting that trigger point where you have made the decision in advance to observe instead of judge and then giving yourself freedom to practice that by inserting the question of “isn’t that interesting” and acknowledging when it happens is the first step to change any unconscious behavior or emotion. I absolutely love that. Then shifting that focus to other people and focusing on how you can help.

Kary Oberbrunner: Selling is serving.

Scott Barlow: Awesome. Hey I really appreciate that, and you taking the time today and being able to take us through your story and share a few anecdotes. I love this stuff. I’m curious for other folks interested in getting more Kary where can they find more about what you do and the things we’ve mentioned today?

Kary Oberbrunner: Karyoberbrunner.com is where you can find out a lot of things. That is where everything is. If people say they want to learn more about books its karyoberbrunner.com/book. I’m excited about what you’re doing Scott. I’m very passionate about helping people close the gap between their ideas, implementing, and that is our unhackability. We have a free assessment people can take at elixirprojectbook.com. That is my fiction book that was super fun to write. It’s a metaphor for how many of us get hacked by our own self-limiting beliefs and how to close that gap.

Scott Barlow: Very cool. We will have all of those in the show notes. Go to happentoyourcareer.com/177 and check out all of that and quite a bit more. Thank you Kary. I appreciate you taking the time and making the time. This has been awesome.

Kary Oberbrunner: Thanks for having me and keep doing your amazing work Scott. I appreciate you.