634: From Academia to Federal Government: Michal’s Second Career Pivot

Michal Balass 00:01

Going through the first transition makes you hyper aware of what you want, what you don't want, what you're willing to tolerate, what your needs are. And so I wasn't digging through all of that the second time around.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:16

Making one intentional career change can set your life on a completely different path. And it's not just because you get a new career or you switch industries, it's really all of the work that you put into making the career change that actually makes all the difference. Going through the effort to learn how to make a very intentional career change that lines up more with your strengths and what you want out of life and work, well, going through all that effort to be able to make that happen, it doesn't just change your job once, it changes how you look at it for your entire life, and you can't go back. This is a different episode. We call it, "Where are they now?" series. So on Monday, we shared Michal's story from when she first made a career change. And if you haven't already heard it, I would say, pause this episode, go back, have a listen. It's right before this one. As Michal and I talked about many things regarding her career change that she'd made at the time, she also shared how many things were different in her life. Meaning, she realized that not only did her priorities begin to shift, but she was also able to fine-tune her desires and her goals in ways that she just didn't anticipate. This was thanks to all the things that she learned during her initial career change. Pretty cool, right? Well, as we started the conversation, Michal goes back and reflects on her situation that made her make her first career change. Here she is.

Michal Balass 01:48

When we spoke last, I had left my academic job as a professor about maybe three or four months. So I was fresh out of academia. And I had a job in an academic setting, doing research in a different kind of way. So I wasn't a professor. And I was at that shop for about nine months. And I discovered along the way that it didn't quite, it was a very good transition job, it didn't really quite fit everything that I was looking for. And I started applying to federal jobs on a tip from somebody that said, "Well, based on what you're saying and what you're looking for, you might really like the federal government working environment." And on a whim, I applied to as many jobs that sounded like they would fit what I was looking for. And I forgot about it. Months passed, and that's sort of how the federal hiring process goes. And, you know, a few months later, I get a flurry of interview requests. And I had forgotten about applying because I thought, you know, I'm a cognitive psychologist, I'm a statistician, I'm doing this kind of work, why would the federal government want me? And it turns out that they wanted a lot of people like me, and that sort of set the stage to where I am now.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:13

Let me ask you about that, though. I'm really curious about that comment that you made about, 'why would the federal government want you.' So what is behind that, first of all?

Michal Balass 03:25

Well, so my graduate training, which I'm so proud of, using cognitive psychology in psycho linguistics, so the psychology of language. I used to, and I still do, actually, do research in literacy, learning how to read, vocabulary learning. And when you think about that content area, you think that your choices are pretty limited. And right now, I'm working in the area of public health in which seven months ago I had zero experience, and when I would be applied to jobs for my first transition, my identity was so tightly around with the fact that I'm a cognitive psychologist, I was a professor, and people have to know this. And they don't. They have to know the kind of skills that you can bring to the table. And for me to learn how to spin my training to show, “Hey, because of my training, I can learn really fast and have the statistical skills that you need. And you don't have to worry about the fact that I'm not trained in public health, I will pick this up along the way.” And when I understood that, I can be very confident about that, it became really easy. I felt I was getting into these without even having to try.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:44

I definitely want to come back and dig deeper into how to spend my training portion, and the giving interviews without even having to try, because I think that our listeners absolutely want to hear more. But before we do that, I think it's really important to give some context as to what were some of the biggest learnings that you had first time around, and specifically you went through and when we got that and meet you the first time, you had just recently had the realization that academia maybe wasn't where exactly you want it to be over the long term. And you were experimenting with a lot of different things you had, even started a side hustle with a photography business. And you were looking at a lot of different opportunities in a variety of different ways. And I remember that, there's a lot of ways that you could describe that first transition, however easy was probably not one of them. Is that fair to say?

Michal Balass 05:44

Yes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:46

Okay. So, along those lines, I'm curious, before we even get into this most recent transition, which it sounds like you've done an amazing job with, what do you feel like were some of your biggest learnings the first time around?

Michal Balass 06:01

I wish I could take credit for this, because I recently heard it. And I felt that it characterizes what my learnings were the first time around. And I was really focused on what I wanted to be instead of who I wanted to be. And I learned in that first transition, to focus on who I wanted to be, and what is going on in my life right now that sort of restricts or eliminate some of these other possibilities. And focusing on the 'who' instead of the 'what' made it really easy to find a path forward. And it's finding the path that makes it go more smoothly and a little bit more easily, if that makes sense.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:46

Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. And it also resonates with me on a lot of different levels, both me personally, but also even, you know, there's been some really good research done around this too, people who are more resilient are those people who are very focused on instead of bringing into you know, I'm a CEO, and that's part of my identity, or I am a "insert your title here", instead, more focused on the type of person that they are, and want to be. And that translates into resiliency as well, which was very, very interesting to me. So what you say resonates on that level, too. But I'm curious, what way did you see that play out for you? What did that mean in your world?

Michal Balass 07:33

It meant that I had to shed a little bit of the identity that I had before; it meant a lot to me. And I knew myself as a professor, as a cognitive psychologist. And I have to sort of think about myself as somebody who is really a researcher who's curious about the world, that really enjoys statistics, and wants to make an impact and meaningful impact in the day to day work that she's doing. And because of that, I think that helped me rebrand myself a little bit in a less restrictive way. So I'm still a researcher, and I'm still a cognitive psychologist. But being a researcher opens a lot of different opportunities in different content areas, than saying that I'm a cognitive psychologist. And I'm still the same person, it's just really thinking about yourself in a different way that opens up other opportunities.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:36

That's interesting that you bring up the branding side as well. Because I think on the psychological level, it helps tremendously around identity, like you were mentioning, but also, it helps as you're thinking about it differently, it becomes easier. It seems like to translate it into the branding and even more tangible side to it. And you know, I actually too, I'm curious, because I have got kids, you're a parent. This idea has actually recently changed the way that I interact with my kids, my children, because everybody in the world is like, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" You know, in casual conversation, as they, you know, as we're standing there, and they meet the kids and everything else. And we have, especially recently worked really hard to not cause people to think about them, or not cause our children to think about themselves as any one particular thing like my son plays hockey, and instead of identifying as a hockey player, having him identify more is the type of person who's going to give his all into sports, or whatever it is that he does, and be all in and that type of thing. But I'm curious what your experience has been in that regard, too.

Michal Balass 09:56

It's been really hard. And I'm laughing, because for people like me who've had similar experiences, you're going to school and you're investing so much time in the 'what', you're going to be this thing. And then you go and do this thing, right, you have arrived, and you get there. And you look around. And you said, "Well, I don't know that I want to be this 'what' face." And I sort of, and trying to shift to the 'who' and the type of person and thinking about this is my personality. And I'm a sensitive person, and I care about people. And I need to be in an environment where people are like-minded, and what can I do that embraces those things that are part of me. And it's really, really hard. I think about it, like, "Oh, it was really, really easy. I just sort of thought about myself in a different way." But I think that's why, in the past three years, I think I started working with Lisa Lewis three years ago. I think that's why it has taken me that long to get to this point. And I can see myself changing over time. So I'm trying to think about once I get to a certain space, that I'll still be evolving. And in 5 years or 10 years, I might want to do something different. And that's okay. I'm trying to commit to the moment and the short term and do the best work that I can do that is aligned with who I am. And you know, and worry about the rest later.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:33

One of the things that you mentioned to me before we really got into this conversation and hit the record button is that, compared to your first transition, this second transition was much easier. And I'm curious, one, what you meant by that? I promised you I was gonna ask about this later. Because I am really legitimately curious about what your experience was like, as it relates to that second transition. But that was a really interesting comment. So tell me what you meant by that and how you felt it was easier.

Michal Balass 12:08

I think going through the first transition makes you hyper aware of what you want, what you don't want, what you're willing to tolerate, what your needs are. And so I wasn't digging through all of that the second time around. I had spent a long time, the first transition trying to figure out, "Okay, well, how do I feel about this? Does this feel comfortable? Does this feel like something that I would want to do?" And the second time around, I already knew all of that stuff. And I've done a lot of research, and I just continued doing what I learned from you, and the podcast is to continue having conversations and to continue engaging in relationship building. And you never know who's going to give you this little nugget of information that is going to open up the whole world to you. And it was a casual conversation that I was having with a colleague whose husband works in the federal government. And she said, "He's kind of like you, and you might enjoy this. Why don't you just try to see what happens?" And that's how I got here. So one of the reasons why I think the second transition is a lot easier is because you do all the hard work the first time, and you're always made aware of this works for me, this doesn't. And when you feel that things are going awry, or you have a sense of I want something more, it's a little bit easier to get on that, you know, job search, train, and start doing work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:41

So I'm really interested in that, though, because I would say that one of the things I've observed is, even before we got the opportunity to work with you, you were a pretty self-aware person. Compared to the average person out there, you were pretty self-aware already.

Michal Balass 14:00

For better or worse.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:01

For better or for worse. But I think that that's been something that I have been really fascinated about. Because, you know, we get, through the podcast, and through our company, I've had the opportunity to meet so many people that are already very self-aware, especially compared to the average person. And at the same time, you know, as they go through the type of process that you're describing, and getting to know themselves on a different level, and what they want and need as it relates to their work and their life, something is different, and something is like we... It's at a deeper level. So I'm curious just for you, what you feel like that something was? Because it sounds like knowing and doing the hard work for that the first time, even though you were already pretty self-aware, was, in some ways, a bit of a game changer for you and just paved the way for future times around.

Michal Balass 15:01

I think going through the process and being self-aware gives you this sense of the Sixth Sense. And if I can go back and think about at what point in my first transition job I started feeling that I needed something different, and I can't really pinpoint exactly, I was at that job for about four or five months. And I was pretty pleased. And I felt really good about the work that I was doing. And I sort of had the sense that I would reach the full capacity at that job pretty quickly. And it wasn't some, like, I was thinking about it consciously. It's sort of something that happened because I went through the process. And I knew, "Okay, well, I'm going to start planning now. So I don't get to that point where I feel that I'm stuck." And having gone through the process the first time, you can sort of gauge, it's just that experience gives you this sense of "Okay, well, maybe I need to start thinking about what the next step is."

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:07

So then, what did you feel like were some of those actual tangible pieces as you were working in the, you know, the role that you transitioned to when we talked the last time around on the podcast, what were some of those recognition signs for you where it started to pop up and you thought, "Hmm.. Maybe I should pay attention to this, and I should begin this transition again quicker."

Michal Balass 16:30

Sure. So when I first started my job, the onboarding was a steep learning curve, but three months into it, four months into it, I was getting my work done. And I was getting it done very quickly. And there wasn't more for me to do. And I would create my own projects to preoccupy my time. And I acquired a lot of skills in that way. And it was very obvious that there was nowhere for me to move up. And I was a little sad about that, because I really like the academic environment. I like being on campus. But I also realized that if I'm going to get bored, I'm going to feel disconnected. And it's not going to be good for me, it's not going to be good for my employer, and I didn't want to get to that point. That was one. The other thing that happened that sort of gave me a sense that I need to be thinking about the transition is that there was also an administrative change. And in that administrative change, changed some of the culture in the office, and it wasn't something that I felt very aligned with. And for me, given what had happened to me in my first job when I was a professor, it was really important to me not to get to that point where I'm really unhappy, because when I get to that point, and it's really hard for me to see the forest through the trees. And in a way, this helped me, working on this earlier, it helped me keep logical and to be very practical. And to be honest, having not had this experience before, I don't think I would have been able to do and get to the point where I am now. I think sometimes people who are self-aware and are very productive when things go bad, or if things don't feel quite right, they just work harder at it. And they have to unlearn that because you can put so much time and effort into a bad situation, and it's not going to make it change, right? There's just so many things that you can control, and learning how to sort of step back and think about, "Okay, well, how do I make this better in the short term, and how do I move forward?" That's something that I wouldn't have been able to do had I not had the first experience.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:04

That's interesting. And you mentioned, putting tons of time and effort is the default for, you know, especially people that have a tendency to be high performers, especially going along with that, that self-awareness and some of the other pieces too. I would say that I've also witnessed that people can put tons and tons of time and effort and energy, and go back into that default to just work harder or try harder, or try to make it work in one way or another. Even if it's a good situation, but not an ideal situation. As well. I'm one. It's really interesting to hear that you were able to trigger completely differently. And, you know, it also brings up a different question. A little bit behind the scenes before we hit the record button here. One of the things you asked, as since we were talking about, oh, we're doing this series, where we're bringing on people that have been on the podcast before that we've had the opportunity to help, you know, called “Where Are They Now?” And you said, how many of those people had transitioned into other jobs or other roles or other opportunities, since the point in time where we helped them, and when we're talking to them now. And I told you about, you know, 60-ish percent is what I would guess. And I'm curious, one, why you asked, and were you surprised? You said you weren't surprised by that. But why weren't you surprised by it?

Michal Balass 20:32

I'm not surprised by it, because I think my experience is similar to other people's experience where you've been doing something for a really long time, and your first transition comes up, and you do this interview, and you do so well, and you get the job, and at that point, you don't, at least for me, I didn't feel that I fully knew myself to know that this transition job, and I hate calling that transition job, and this job that I had transitioned to is exactly the right fit. And the process that you go through sticks with you. It's not like you change jobs, and it ends, right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:15

It is not a one and done.

Michal Balass 21:16

Yes, self discovery does not end after that. And, you know, your personal life also changes. My son now is three, and he has different needs. And I want to be around more. And it changes how you think about your job. So it's not surprising to me that the first job after that transition may be a good fit, but it might not be the ideal fit. And, you know, another transition might be required. It was true for me, and I would assume that it would probably be true for others as well.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:52

But I think what I'm hearing from you and what I've been putting together and what's been really fun for me as I've been having these conversations is that I've heard similar things again, and again, to what I... what you said earlier, actually, and that it paves the way for something that is even more ideal, or even better, or something that you couldn't quite imagine at that particular time until you had that continuous iteration that you're talking about. I can't remember what word you used. I think you used evolution, maybe.

Michal Balass 22:20

Yes. And I think the things that I was thinking about when I wanted to make my first transition were completely different than the things that I was thinking about for my second transition. So for my first transition, I was really focused about, as I said, rebranding myself, taking the essence of what I can do, and showing somebody else that I can be of value for what they're doing. And that was my focus. The second time around, I was focused about meaningful work again, but also thinking about how does this job fits into my lifestyle? And how will it fit for the things that I'm thinking about doing in the future? And the thought processes were completely different.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:07

That's pretty cool. And I don't want to gloss over how this second transition was made. Because at the beginning of this, you said, "I really focused on how to spend my training and my learning into this next role here." So I'm really curious, what did you mean by that? And how did you do that?

Michal Balass 23:29

So the market for research psychologists is much bigger than the market for cognitive psychologists. Even though a cognitive psychologist is a research psychologist, and the training is very similar. We are all trained in how to do good research and statistics and making sure that the science is good. So thinking about in making that second transition, thinking a little bit more broadly, because I wanted to do impactful work. And impactful work comes in all different kinds of content areas. And when I was interviewing, I wanted to tell the interviewer, "Yeah, you're looking at my resume. And you're wondering, why would somebody with my background would want to be in the area of public health?" Well, it's a very compelling mission. And even though I wasn't trained in this content area, I was trained in other ways. And this is what I can bring to the table. This is the value that I can add, and thinking about my training in a broader way, and it wasn't that I was saying things that I wasn't able to do, those are things that I could do, just in a different kind of context. And that worked, and being very genuine and saying, “I was doing this work before. And I feel I have a higher calling, I feel that I want to be more connected with the work that I'm doing and how it affects other people.” And being genuine about that was very appealing. And where I work now, nobody bats an eye about my previous experience, they actually think that it's something that is valuable that I bring to the work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:17

How did you, when we get into the nitty gritty, because one of the things I heard you mentioned earlier is, you know, at one point thought, "Nobody's going to... Nobody's gonna think that my previous experience is valuable at the federal government," and then somewhere along the way, you had a change of heart. And then you started looking at this on a broader perspective. And as you mentioned, rebranding yourself. And then you leveraged that to be able to submit a flurry of applications, I think you call it. So what took place? What do you feel like were some of the things that really helped or that you did during that, that caused people to pay attention? Because I heard you say, you know, "I didn't just get one interview, but there were multiple organizations reaching back out."

Michal Balass 26:08

Yes. So I reached out to anybody that I knew that had a federal position, and asked them about the process. And I learned that the federal hiring process doesn't have a backdoor option. So you submit your resume, and there's an actual human that reviews every resume that is submitted for a particular job. And you have to make sure that in your resume, somebody who doesn't have experience in your field or doesn't have experience for the job that is advertised can understand what your skills are. And when that has that piece of, as I said, that little nugget of information that opens the whole world to you, I could think about, "Okay, well, how do I articulate my skills that somebody who has no background in statistics can understand that I can do this job?" And that was sort of the formula that I used for every resume that I submitted. And I got through the first pass, and I know that in the training that you do in the bootcamp for people, you advocate to get through the back door, if possible, talk to people, see if you can get your resume on their desk. And I think that is a very fantastic method and advocate for that 99% of the time. But with the federal hiring process, you can't do that. They have very rigorous standards on how resumes are reviewed. So in this case, and the interviews that I got, I got through the front door, somebody looked at my resume, and it was articulated well enough that they took a chance on me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:53

I heard you say, and I want to push you just a little bit here on two areas. The first of which I heard you say that, you know, "I was able to articulate some of my previous experiences in a way that fit what they were looking for." Part of those are my words, not yours. What helped you the most with that?

Michal Balass 28:15

I hate to sound like I'm repeating myself, but just thinking about my skills in a broader way, and in a genuine way that could help with the mission of the agency that I was applying for. I think that's really, really important. I think sometimes we get stuck in thinking, "Well, I'm doing work in this area. And I really want to shift into doing something else. But I don't have the content to be able to do that." And I don't think that's true. Underneath it all, I think employers want people with skills that are applicable and transferable, and that they want people who are really anxious to learn as fast as possible to do the best job as possible. And articulating that on my resume, articulating that on my cover letter, the same to work, I think, and going there in person and interviewing and being very genuine and not hiding the experience that I've had before. But articulating in a kind of way to say, you know, "I did this body of work before. This is what I learned from it. I think this could really help you here.” Was a very successful strategy."

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:33

When you got down to the nitty gritty of how you did that, was that, you went and locked yourself in a, I don't know, a coffee shop, maybe locked yourself in isn't the right word. But you went to a coffee shop and you brainstormed for four hours, what did you find worked for you to come up with that and think about that and translate that from thoughts in your brain down to something that was on digital paper or actual paper, in one way or another?

Michal Balass 30:01

Sure. So what I did, and this is a, I don't know that this is the most efficient method, is that I made a list of all my important accomplishments, all my skills, the things that I did. And then I looked at the job application and looked at the language that was articulated in the job application, and rebranded what I did in that kind of way. So it was just basically understanding where the employers are coming from and what they're looking for, and the language that they speak, and showing them that I could speak that language, that I can take my experience, and apply to what they're doing. And it wasn't easy. It sounds like it's easy, but it's not. It requires really thinking about my experiences and what was most important, and articulating what the employer would be looking for.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:00

Very cool, I appreciate you detailing that out. That is super helpful, because part of what I'm hearing is that it is not, one, it's not gonna be easy, necessarily. This requires real thought and decision making. And you're putting the time and effort into that. But then the other thing I am hearing from you is that, you know, as you sat down with that brainstormed list of all of your accomplishments and results, and everything that came along with it, then a big part of that about that was knowing and understanding and doing some of the research on the organization, and then taking also the the job post and then the language that is used in there and translating it into that. Is that a fair summary of what you did?

Michal Balass 31:46

Yes. And if I can offer the listeners a little bit of a tip.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:51

Please.

Michal Balass 31:52

If you do this kind of work, your resume will stand out. Because 90% of the people they just submit their resume, they don't alter it to fit the job requirements or the description or the mission of the organization. And if you spend the time writing a well articulated cover letter that shows that you're very interested in the job and why you're interested in it, and let your resume reflect that, it's very easy to get to the top of the stack.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:23

We're in the process of hiring for a marketer and growth hacker for our organization. And that is literally what the job of that person is to do, or at least a portion of the job, I should say, is know and understand the people that we work with and translate a lot of what we do into the language of the people that we work with. And that serves as our marketing and our content. So I fully expect people to be able to do that in our process. And it blows me away that even for a, you know, somebody who that is literally their job, we still get tons of tons of things that do not meet that criteria at all, and are not what you just described. So yes, you will go to the top of the stack in a variety of different ways. And even though it's difficult, it's far easier to make that happen than what you imagined. And I do want to say that I have just as a note, although it's not easy necessarily to go in the backdoor, there's a variety of different ways that I have been successful in helping other people go through the backdoor in federal government, and still live within the systems that are in place. For example, one very, very easy way, I shouldn't say easy, one very, very simple way that that has happened is being able to get in touch and befriend some of the recruiters so they have one other additional extra incentive to pull your resume out of the stack, in addition to the amazing language that is used inside to resume an application. So that's just one out of many. But I will say to your point that there are a lot of systems in place. And it's easier to work within those systems, even when you're going through or attempting to go through the back door, if you will. So...

Michal Balass 34:15

That is true. And if I can add another little tip. I didn't know this while I was applying. Now that I've been in the system, I do know this to be true. So on federal job applications, at the bottom of the job description, there will be an email there. And that email actually goes to a person, a live person who will answer your questions. And so if you have questions about the job application, you should email them. And even if you don't have questions about the job application, you should email them to show that you're interested. And if they can't answer your question, they will tell you that they can't. But it's that little boost that gives you a bit of visibility that you wouldn't have otherwise.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:02

Absolutely. I appreciate that tip. And speaking of giving advice and tips, here's what I'm really curious about: you've gone through now, multiple transitions. And if you think way back to that first time around, for just a moment, because we've got many listeners that are in that position, you were even the listener in that position, the first time you and I got to chat, oh, my goodness, a year and a half, two years ago, right? You know, a year and a half, two years ago, it was a totally different situation. And you were discovering that, "Hey. This isn't where I want to be for the long term. And this isn't a great fit." So now that you're back in that mindset, what advice would you give to people that are there, that want to discover what it is that they can be doing and should be doing, and make that type of transition that you did?

Michal Balass 35:55

I think the first thing that I would say, it's okay that you don't like what you thought your dream job is going to be. And it's going to take a while to feel that it's okay, that it's not, it's never a loss, all experiences are valuable experiences. And for me and thinking about that we were going to talk today, and I knew that you were going to ask me this question. For me, what feels like took so long and looking back, it's not really that long, is getting to the point of saying to myself, admitting it, that it's okay that I don't like do what I'm doing right now. And because I worked so hard for it, and I got to this point, and you feel that, well, “I've invested all this time. I don't want to let this go.” And it's okay to let it go. And it's just a part of the evolution of yourself. You're going to discover that there's a lot of different things that you might like to do. And, you know, tap into those things and do little experiments and try things out and see whether you like it or not. But at the end of the day, don't ever feel bad about yourself for wanting to change, because that is what's going to hold you back. Getting that interview or submitting resumes, or working on relationship building is hard. But the hardest work, I think, is coming to terms with and being okay with wanting to make a change.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:33

Hey, if you're ready to be clear on what you want and find what fits you, I would say just email me — pause this right now — scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Put “Conversation” in the subject line. I'll connect you with somebody on my team, the right person on my team, who can help you discover your ideal career profile. Again, it's scott@happentoyourcareer.com.