487: How To Turn Job Loss Into A Career Growth Opportunity

Victoria Lyon 00:01

I was one of several people that was let go. And there had been some talks about some uncertainty coming ahead. But I had been taught that, if I'm adding value to the company and making myself indispensable and doing good work that I shouldn't be one of those people that will lose my job.

Introduction 00:27

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:46

What happens if you've gone through the hard work of making a career change, and you've now ended up completely changing what you thought you'd be doing for the rest of your life? You finally land in this role that you're really excited about, you're enjoying it, it's checking all of your boxes, you're pumped, and you get unexpectedly laid off. Bummer, right? Well, that's why happened to Victoria Lyon. Victoria had been on the podcast before in Episode 467, where she talked about her career change from the frontlines of COVID research to landing her unicorn role as a project manager at a health tech startup. We brought her back on the podcast because her new organization, unfortunately, downsized and Victoria's role was cut. However, she didn't let that keep her down for long and she's here to share the next chapter of her career change story.

Victoria Lyon 01:37

I was having a little bit of this identity crisis about taking a job outside of healthcare. I had done all this work to get ready to leave public health, but then I still was hung up on, "I need to work in healthcare, because that's all I've done before."

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:51

In this episode, you'll hear our content manager, Samantha, as she steps in to talk with Victoria about her experience of rallying after that job loss, and going through yet another career change only months after lassoing her unicorn role. Some of the big takeaways, I think, are the tactics that Victoria carried over from her initial career change process, and how she honed in on her strengths, once again, to identify roles that she knew would fit her. So I want you to listen to how she managed to utilize all the things that she had learned through her first career change process to get to something even better. Here's Victoria kicking her and Samantha's conversation off by going back to the beginning of her initial career change when she first reached out to HTYC.

Victoria Lyon 02:37

I was at a very interesting time in my life when I started career coaching. I had just quit a job working on the front lines of COVID testing efforts at the University of Washington in Seattle. I just got married. My husband and I decided we wanted a fresh start, we'd moved to Austin, Texas from Seattle. And had a new job lined up, but we just got married, and I wanted to start thinking about my long term career path. And just thinking on a longer time horizon now that I was married, and we were building this life together. So I started career coaching shortly after moving with the goal of being able to articulate my long term career vision, and I had actually just started a new job, I was happy. So even though I was part of the career change bootcamp, it wasn't that I was looking for a new job right now. But that I wanted the clarity about what the career roadmap was going to look like, not just what's the next immediate job. And I'm really grateful that we did take that approach, because as we'll get into shortly, I've had to look for a new job, again, a little bit shorter than expected. And all of the work that we did thinking about that roadmap is still applicable.

Samantha Martin 03:47

Yeah, I'm really excited to get into your... the next chapter of your career change journey. You referenced the last time you were on the podcast. So I just wanted to mention for everyone who wants to hear Victoria's original story, that that is Episode 467 that we will link in the show notes. But it's a great story about her original career change journey. So I definitely recommend that everyone go listen to that. But so like you mentioned, you had found your, what we like to call your unicorn role, so what ended up happening to cause you to look for another job?

Victoria Lyon 04:19

Yeah, it was quite unexpected. Just to add a little color to what the unicorn job meant to me. I felt like I was leveraging my strengths every day. I was working at a company that I cared about the product and I could relate to the end customers. I thought the problems I was working on were really interesting. And I was learning a lot. And I had a great team of people that I felt like the people that I was brainstorming with every day that we could solve any problem that was thrown at us and that they were just wonderful human beings. So I just... I was having fun at work. I was challenged. I was growing. And I just, I really wanted to do great work and I was really proud of what I did there. And unfortunately, as I know, many people have experienced in the last several months with the economy turning, and especially in the startup and venture capital landscape, there's a lot of uncertainty. And so our executive leadership made the decision to downsize the company and let go of roles that were non-essential for a very lean budget they needed to run. So I was one of several people that was let go. And there had been some talks about some uncertainty coming ahead. But I had been taught that, you know, if I'm adding value to the company, and making myself indispensable, that I shouldn't be one of those people that will lose my job. And so I didn't worry much about it. And yeah, I was really surprised when that conversation happened. And it was a difficult one. And my manager is someone that I care about, and deeply respect. And I know it was hard for her to be the bearer of bad news. And even in that moment, I felt empathy for her and knew that it wasn't personal. It wasn't my performance. It was about a budget. And the initiatives that I had been hired to run were all put on pause. And so I was essentially told, "We'd love to keep you but all the initiatives that we want you to work on, are not happening right now. And we don't want to put you in a corner where you're working on things that wouldn't utilize your talents." And I am grateful for that. I mean, it was my instinct to want to help out wherever I could. And if it meant stepping in with sales or customer success, I could have done that. But I think that the leadership did have the foresight to know that it's better to just end things on a good note. And so I am grateful for my time there. And it was a lot shorter than I expected. I was all in on the vision. And I really thought I was going to be with the company until they were acquired or had some other major event. I wanted to be a part of that ride. And yeah, so it was a little upsetting to leave. But there's been a lot of really good things that have come since the layoff.

Samantha Martin 07:09

Yeah, I really love how you described what unicorn role is for you personally. I think it's a little different for everyone. So I really liked that description that you gave. So in your original career change journey, I know that your strengths were a big part of like diving into them and seeing what type of role that you would want. So can you remind everyone what your top five strengths are, and how you were looking to utilize them in your next role?

Victoria Lyon 07:37

Sure. Yeah, my top five strengths are: Arranger Maximizer, Communication, Woo, and Futuristic. And, as I talked about in the previous episode, working with my coach not only did we look at the individual five strengths, but looked at what parent category they fall into, and we learned that most of my strengths fell into the influencing category. And so that word influencing became really critical in my job search, and what we... on earth was that my sweet spot is being a project manager on initiatives where I have the opportunity to help influence the outcomes. There's a lot of project managers who they just want to have a clear path, and they're great about executing, and they're very detail oriented and process oriented. And I fall into another camp, that's project managers that like a little bit more ambiguity and the opportunity for strategic thinking. And so the first time around, I actually used the word influencing in a lot of my job searches. And this time around, I'm trying to remember, I don't think it said the word influencing on this job description. But when I started interviewing for the role that I ended up getting, I gathered that the nature of the role was that they wanted somebody that was dynamic and did a lot of strategic thinking. And they wanted somebody with a little bit more process improvement lens. And the role that I'm in now is a hybrid of project management and business operations. And so funny enough, they said they were looking for the unicorn, that was somebody with both the business operations and project management skill set. And on the surface, maybe those seem like they are synonymous. But as my current manager will tell you, he interviewed a lot of people for this position and had a hard time finding somebody that he felt matched the skills that they needed. And when I read the job description, there was enough in it that made me intrigued to feel like this actually sounds pretty dynamic or that there might be a lot of opportunity to be creative. And it's funny because, yes, the career change bootcamp and working with Happen To Your Career was very strengths oriented. And I actually found that the interview process there was very strengths oriented as well. And I just was intrigued with how they approached the job hunting process as a whole. One of the things they did was had me take a personality assessment. So it wasn't StrengthsFinder. I think it was called the predictive index. And so they had me do an assessment. And then my first interview was a screening round with the recruiter to make sure that everything on my resume made sense. But then the first substantial interview, we actually spent a good amount of time going through my predictive index, and the hiring manager said, "Here's what you scored on the test. And I'm gonna read some statements about your behavior, what we what we predict your behavior to be based on how you scored. And I want you to tell me if you agree with these statements or not. And if you disagree with them, tell me what would make the statement true." And so we talked through things like trying to think of what were example questions on there, like, I really liked working on a team– strongly agree. I thrive in ambiguity. I don't remember what a lot of the questions were. But anyway, we just spent a lot of time discussing my strengths. And it felt like the goal of that interview was just for the hiring manager to get a good accurate picture of who I was. We didn't even talk a lot about what the job was in that conversation. It was just, am I getting the essence of you, and how you approach problems and how you work well with others. And, I just thought there was a thoughtfulness there that was really unique. And so then it was in stages of interviewing where we talked a little bit more about the specifics of the job, and what were the processes within the company that they're hoping to improve. And what does it mean to manage projects there? What are the problems that they face that they're hoping to change by hiring a new person, some of it was the company in which just had a lot of employees who are spread thin. So of course, having a new employee there to help balance the load can help. But there were other things about the dynamic, there were a lot of people there that are great iterators. And they needed somebody to come in and take those ideas and make them into concrete plans with deadlines and someone to follow up. And so we talked about what my project management style is, and how I navigate ambiguity and how I prioritize when people are sharing a lot of different ideas. And it was just very clear from the interview process that they were very concerned about a cultural fit with whoever they hired, and that they wanted to hire somebody who wants to be there for a while, because there's a lot of potential for growth and improvement, and that they did not see this as a churn and burn kind of position.

Samantha Martin 12:48

That's always inspiring. I think a lot of companies are starting to integrate that into their hiring process of more self development or personality tests to make sure that the person is the right fit for the role, and not just the skills, and the person is the right fit for the team, like you said, that shows them a lot better have a picture of if this person will burn out in this role or not, which we mean a lot more of that in the job force today. So how would you say you felt going through the interview process this time around versus during your original career change going from research to project management?

Victoria Lyon 13:28

Yeah, it's been an interesting journey. Because when I went through my initial career change with Happen To Your Career, I had long held this identity of being a public health professional, and to shift from public health professional to a project manager who works in healthcare. That was a shift, And it took time, but there was still a through line. And in this next job hunt, most of the jobs, I mean, 95% of the jobs that I applied for, were in the digital health space. And so that would have been very much continuation from the position I recently left. This job that I ended up getting, I guess I might as well just say it, right? I haven't said what the job is. So I'm now working as a Project Manager and Business Operations Specialist for a Real Estate Wealth Management Company. And they're in Oregon. Maybe one, maybe two or three jobs that I applied for that were not in the digital health space. And the reason I applied for it was because I read that job description and went, "Oh, I could do that. That looks like that would leverage my strengths." And so I just threw my resume in the ring and thought I'd wait to see what happened. And as I mentioned earlier, most of my networking was still very much in the healthcare space. And a little bit in the research space too. I did consider a contract research organization. So I had a lot of conversations that were health centric. And then this company that I ended up working at was the anomaly, but I just was really enjoying my conversations the whole way through the interview process. So I think I didn't have a lot of expectations, it was just, "let's see what happens" So far it's interesting. So far, everybody's been really nice. So far, I think I could do this job. Whereas I think with other companies that I had followed before, I was putting a lot of weight on the outcome. And maybe I had consumed content from these companies in my previous roles. And so I had these companies up on a pedestal. And I don't know if that contributed to how I interviewed or whatnot. But there was a levity that I had going into the interviews that the company I ended up going into, because I wasn't stressed, I just wanted to learn and see what they needed, and just kept an open heart to see if that was the right fit or not.

Samantha Martin 15:56

So I know Philip had reached out to you when you were going through another career change. And you ended up leveraging some of him and Scott's knowledge once you got this job offer, is that right?

Victoria Lyon 16:10

Yeah. So I was very excited to receive a job offer. But as I said, I was having a little bit of this identity crisis about taking a job outside of healthcare. I dumped all this work to get ready to leave public health, but then I still was hung up on, "I need to work in health care, because that's all I've done before." And I just, I really wanted to talk to... I talked to friends and family, but I also wanted to talk to Phillip about the opportunity to just make sure from a fresh set of critical eyes that this made sense for me. And Phillip had it proactively reached out to me on LinkedIn when I had announced that I had been laid off and said the Happen To Your Career team is here to support you. Let us know what you need. And for a while, I wasn't sure what I needed. I was networking well. I had people in my corner. So I didn't feel stuck. It was just, it took a while to figure out what kind of support I needed. And ultimately, I received a job offer and I reached out said, "Hey, can you help me with salary negotiation? I just wanted to make sure that whatever I said yes to that I was wholeheartedly excited about it. And I felt appreciated and that I wanted to accept something that I saw being out for a while." I kept saying I don't want to run away from unemployment. But I want to run towards an opportunity that I'm excited about. And so I was able to talk to Phillip and Scott about the offer that was presented to me and figure out if there was anything else that I wanted to amend or add to it. And what was really interesting about it was, I didn't feel like I knew what I was worth. I knew what I had been paid previously. And since making the transition from a nonprofit and an academia to the public sector, I was fortunate that I did have a big salary raise. However, one of the conversations that I had while I was still job hunting was with a headhunter who said, "your resume could go two ways. Yes, you've been laid off. And hopefully people will understand that. But the other thing is that someone might see that you were at your last role for five months, and that maybe you don't deserve another pay bump and whatever you were at, you still have to prove yourself. And hopefully you'll find the right place that doesn't view you that way. But you didn't earn that status of what would normally be accomplished in your job title, had you been there a longer period of time." And that was some tough love that maybe I needed to hear. And so I just went into my conversation with Scott and I have no idea how much I should charge for my time. I know that in the nonprofit sector, I was fighting tooth and nail for $1,000 raise. And this offer that I had been presented was a great value. It was more than I had made previously. And I thought that any jump no matter what the dollar amount was great. And I would take whatever I get. And the only reason I really reached out to them was, I know the data says, that women typically negotiate less than men and that the best time to negotiate is when you're joining a new job because those annual negotiations are often much smaller increments. So that was all I knew. I just... Let me get some outside perspective and just help me see what I don't even know what to ask. So we went into those conversations. I just said, "Here's the offer. What should I be asking for? Should I be asking for more money? What are the leverage that I even have to move here? I don't know if I have it in me." And Scott and I had a really great conversation and we zoomed it way back out to, let's just talk about your ideal life. What do you want to be able to do? And I said things like, "I want to be able to travel internationally. My husband and I still haven't gotten to take our, what I'm calling our international honeymoon, since we got married during COVID. And to being able to save for travel. And we just bought our first home and to be able to continue to invest in our home. And to have flexibility in my time." And so we talked about all of these big things, and then Scott helped me break that down into, "Okay, how much money would you need to realistically do that? How much would you need to save and by when?" And I've done the basics of how to manage a bank account and savings and all that. But I had never really dialed into, how much money do I really need to live that life? It's not that far off, but I need to have that number. And so he helped me articulate that and figure out how far off that was from the offer that I was presented. And he helped me figure out how to go into a conversation with the hiring manager saying, "you know, here are the goals that I have for me and my family. And we're close. And what can we do to help bring this offer a little bit closer, and maybe meet in the middle?" And it wasn't about just throwing out a bigger number because I wanted more money. But it was because there was a goal and there was an outcome that I was seeking. And so we were able to negotiate a little bit more in salary that is getting me a lot closer to those big goals.

Samantha Martin 21:31

Yeah, we were talking about your unicorn role. And I remember one thing that really fed into it being your unicorn role was that you were Jewish, and you were working for an Israeli startup. So you, for the first time, were getting Jewish holidays off and being able to really be yourself in that role. So I know you came to Scott and Phillip and you were talking about negotiating salary. But I also remember that they told me that you also asked for some things to make it more fitting to your lifestyle. Can you talk about that a little?

Victoria Lyon 22:03

Yeah, one of the perks of the last job that I really loved was that it was a startup that had a pretty liberal time off policy. You know, I think a lot of companies are moving in that direction. If you're a responsible adult, manage your time, as long as you have things covered, take the time that you need to take. And that was a huge shift from working for a public university where your salary is state tax dollars, and your time has to be accounted for. So I swung from one pendulum to the other. And the role that I ended up getting this offer from was a little bit in the middle. They have a little bit more of a traditional HR perspective. But they're trying to compete with a lot of these high tech companies that have generous policies. So one of the things that I was talking to Scott was, what are the levers that I have? I can't change their time off policy. And the hiring manager had made it clear that the company as a whole is looking at their time off policy, because they understand that they may be losing talent to people who are going to other companies that have more lenient time off policies. So what I talked to Scott about was one of the things that's hard and I have gone through it again, is the fall is a very busy time of year for Jewish holidays, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur, the Jewish New Year, there's some of them the most important holidays of the year. So I did talk to Scott about, how do I ask for this? And is this okay to ask for the ability to observe these holidays? And so I was able to have a conversation with the hiring manager about potentially trading holidays, or alternatively, and I think the hiring manager and the employee have to build a relationship of trust, he made it very clear he was not going to nickel and dime my time. And so if I needed to take some time, and I'm getting my work done, that those kinds of circumstances were okay. And so that was just something that was really important to me to have an explicit conversation about before starting the job because I have been in situations in the past where I've decided that fighting that fight and making it known that I belong to a religious minority is not a fight that I want to do as a new employee and I don't want to single myself out as different or other and ask for special exceptions and then it's fine, I'm new and I just want to be at work, and as a student, I didn't want to get behind in classes if I was going to take off time. So that's something, moving forward, that is important to me to make sure that I don't sacrifice on and to your earlier comment about the unicorn job. In my previous company, I was working with a lot of Israelis and so many of them also observe these holidays. And so it was really a non issue. And this time around, I did not rule out all companies that had people of other diverse backgrounds. But what I did retain was that I wanted to make sure that I ended up somewhere where I'm not afraid to express that side of myself.

Samantha Martin 25:19

I love that. So after you worked with Scott, and went back to them, were you negotiating over email or over the phone? How are you communicating your needs back to them?

Victoria Lyon 25:31

It all happened very, very fast. I have the offer by email, I believe on a Thursday night. I think I got the email around six o'clock at night. And I emailed Scott, said, "Can we talk tomorrow?" And then we were scheduled to talk late Friday afternoon. And the hiring manager had called me on Friday morning to make sure I'd gotten the offer. And let me know if you have any questions. So I was feeling the pressure that I needed to get an answer back quickly. And...

Samantha Martin 26:04

That must be like, good thing though, because they were like, eager to hear back from you. So I feel like that put kind of more leverage on your side of like, "oh, they want me."

Victoria Lyon 26:13

Yeah, it was. I felt wanted, which felt good. And I also wanted to be respectful of his time. And I had been unemployed long enough that I was ready to jump back in and get to work. And so yeah, anyway, I was able to speak with Scott. And it was Friday afternoon, right before the weekend. And I just decided, you know what, I think I should give him this feedback as soon as possible. So I ended up calling the hiring manager, probably half hour after I got off the phone with Scott and had my game plan, it was fresh in my mind and I was ready to have that conversation. So I gave him my feedback on the offer and what I wanted to entertain changing if that was possible. And the hiring manager was able to say, "Yep, I'll work with my team. We'll modify the contract. And we'll get this signed on Monday." So they were really, really fast. And I was really worried about pushback on what I was offering. And the team responded very well. And yeah, that sounded very reasonable.

Samantha Martin 27:13

Awesome. That's so great to hear. So looking back over this career change journey after your layoff, what would you say are the tools that you still had in your pocket that you felt from your original experience with HTYC?

Victoria Lyon 27:27

I think first and foremost, that we don't have to have a plan that's set in stone and solidified. I think if there's anything that I took away from Happen To Your Career, it's that we're allowed to experiment and do tests and see what works and see what doesn't. And, I was thrown this curveball, I did not expect to be job hunting anytime soon. And I just went into a lot of conversations with an open mind and curiosity. And I do see this current role as an experiment– let's see how I like working in a different industry. And something that I didn't mention earlier is my parents both work in the real estate industry. And my brother just changed, did a huge pivot from a different industry and is now working with my family in real estate. So I have been around real estate my whole life. And it was something that I very much had no interest in doing. I wanted to beat my own drum via my own path. And it's very funny and full circle to be now at a company in the real estate industry. But I am doing project management. It is different. I'm not a broker. But it was very funny because I've been surrounded by it. And there's just things about that world that I may have taken for granted, but will come in handy in this role. So that's a funny aside here. Yeah, so this was an experiment. I have been around real estate. And I have really liked project management. And this is the experiment to see, "do I like project management in this industry? And is everything I learned about how to be an effective project manager in healthcare gonna translate to a totally different industry. And so far, I see a lot of parallels, especially with healthcare regulations, such as HIPAA are very similar to a lot of the regulations in the finance space, people's data, and their privacy need to be taken very seriously. So that's one example right away, where I'm seeing things that I navigated in healthcare being applicable to this new industry where I'm just barely learning all the finance terminology right now. So I'm very helpful. And I've really enjoyed the company so far, and the culture and the leadership team has made it clear that they know they need a project manager and they're ready for me to whip these projects into shape. So I'm excited to go on this exciting experiment and learn from it. And it's my goal that I'm able to take these learnings from one industry to another and to be able to share that. One of the things that was a goal of mine, and that I actually shared during the interview process was, I would love to become a thought leader in the project management space. And so one of the things that I'm working on now is putting together some proposals to do some public speaking at local Project Management Association events. And if I'm able to learn things that translate from one industry to another, it makes me feel very confident that the lessons I learned will apply to people in the audience from a variety of other industries.

Samantha Martin 30:27

Oh, that's so awesome to hear that you're taking the project management. We talk a lot about when you... if you're not meeting all of your strengths in your role, like your job doesn't have to be the thing that meets all of your strengths. But you can go outside of your job and fill your cup that way. So maybe doing something a little more with public speaking, which you obviously wouldn't be doing in a project management role much, or that you feel like is directly helping others a little more, so it's really interesting to me how people go through our process, and then figure out how they can touch on all the things they enjoy in different ways, and really just live a life that they really, really enjoy. So that's cool to hear that. That's like a new project that you're working on.

Victoria Lyon 31:13

I appreciate it. You hit it on the head. Another piece of that, with deciding to not work in healthcare right now, one of the things that I was asking myself was, "how do I feel like I'm contributing to the community in the ways that I want to?" And for the first time in a while I have the emotional bandwidth to be looking into volunteer opportunities. And so I have been signing up for opportunities. Again, another experiment, I'm volunteering for a lot of different things right now to see what I like and what feels rewarding and a good use of my time. And that has ranged from doing an educational course with our local police department right now, to working at the animal shelter, because I'm just spending time with cats. So I've running the gamut right now as of exploring how I want to show up in my community. And my job is one way that I show up in the community. As a new homeowner, I want to show up in my local community, in my neighborhood in a way that I've never cared to invest in my community before, because I'm hoping to be here for a while. So to this point about Happen To Your Career is really about helping people craft their ideal life. I really like the word lifestyle design. And I think Scott, in particular, does a really good job of articulating that and that we're allowed to dream big and then break it down and figure out how to get there. He's project managing lifestyle design. Funny enough. And so it's been a really exciting journey to not only find work that feels rewarding, and that leverages my strengths, but to be building a life that leverages my strengths and aligns with my values.

Samantha Martin 32:57

I love how you wrap that up. So I want to thank you for coming on here and talking to me about your journey and kind of where are they now. I know people loved hearing your original career change from research, and into project management. And now I'm excited to share how you are doing project management throughout different industries. And really, like you said, experimenting and continuing to be ready to pivot into something that fits you better and better and realizing that you're using your strength. And I hope to have you on again.

Victoria Lyon 33:33

Yeah, thank you so much.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:40

Many of the stories that you've heard on the podcast are from listeners that have decided they wanted to take action, and taking the first step of having a conversation with our team to try and figure out how we can help. And if you want to implement what you have heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just open your phone right now and open your email app. And I'm going to give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And then when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team. And you can have a conversation with us, we'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and your situation. So open up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line; scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:45

Hey, I hope you loved this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And if this has been helpful, then please share this podcast with your friends, with your family, with your co-workers that badly need it. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

35:03

What it ultimately came down to was the idea of something new and different, even if I didn't know what it was, continued to be more exciting than staying where I was.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:14

I think all the time when people find our podcast, they think about, "Well, I must not enjoy my job." Or "This is for people who don't really like their work and want to do something that they actually do like." And actually what we find is, that's not always the case. What about if you were changing careers, and you've had a job that actually was something that you really enjoy? And maybe you've even found that it's impactful? Or it's, what we might call meaningful work or more fulfilling work, and you're even great at your job because you're using your strengths, and you have a team that you love working with? Okay, so if your current role checks these boxes, you might wonder, why do you still feel that tug to make a change? Is it possible to justify leaving what many people might consider a great career? The short answer is yes. The grass may actually be greener on the other side.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:13

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.