613: Less Stress, Happier Family: Surprising Results From Career Transition

Cheri 00:01

I'm not stressed out. I'm not frustrated. I'm not spending my evening dreading the morning. So I have the space in my brain to focus on life, like making dinner and spending time with my family.

Introduction 00:20

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:45

What if the most profound impact of an intentional career change wasn't about the job at all? Imagine a transformation so deep that it rewrites not just your work life but how you show up for the people that you love the most. Most people chase career changes, hoping for a better title, better paycheck, a solution to their happiness. But what if the real gold was hiding in the moment of being able to speak to your partner without work induced irritation, or being able to not worry about your phone and what's going on at work during family dinner, or in having the energy to truly listen to your child's day instead of being mentally exhausted?

Cheri 01:29

I'm just a happier person. I'm a better partner, I'm a better parent, I'm a better friend, because I'm happier.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:36

That's Cheri Thom, and this is what we like to call a "Where Are They Now?" episode. Cheri began working with us back in 2020 when she was desperately trying to escape a job that was making her miserable and negatively affecting her entire life. And if you haven't already, you can listen to the first parts of her story in our episodes 570 and 571 and I would encourage you to go back and take a listen to those if you haven't already. That way, you can get the full picture here. But after really digging into her strengths and defining her must-haves in her ideal career profile, Cheri did a great job of figuring out what she wanted and then finding organizations and roles that fit her. Ultimately, she landed a job that she loves, and then she got a promotion after less than a year. Pretty cool, right? It's now been three years since she made her intentional career change, and we invited her back on the podcast to reflect on these changes and see how her life has been since then. In our conversation, you're going to hear how she still uses, to this day, what she learned about herself and her strengths to continually tweak her definition of ideal and grow her career. So, let's jump into this conversation. But here's Cheri discussing how her role has progressed since she started.

Cheri 02:56

I had been a business analyst for many years prior to that, and knew I wanted to take a role that was a little bit... had a little bit more responsibility. I loved being a business analyst. I wasn't entirely sure that that was where I should be at that point, but I wanted something with more responsibility. So I did product owner certification, I did scrum master certification, and I took this job as a product owner. And what that meant to me is that I was responsible for the business analysis, which I loved doing, but also that I got to participate in some of the decision-making. So I would help guide our customers to making the right decisions for what they needed. I was there for about a year and loved my job, loved my team, loved the people I worked with, loved what I was doing. Everything about it was fantastic. Not to say that it didn't have its pains, but overall, it was super happy there. And then it was a little before I was there for a year that my boss offered me a promotion, and I did not immediately take it. I was like, "Are you sure?" And I spent about a week thinking about it. I talked with you. I talked with lots of people. I spent time figuring out if it aligned with what I wanted because I honestly wasn't sure, and I didn't want to step away from this job that I loved and that I was really good at, and to do something that I didn't love and I wasn't good at. And I talked it over with my boss, and I told her my concerns. I was like, "Okay, I want to do this, but I don't want to be not good at my job." And she was so fantastic. She's like, "Well, what we can do is we could start interviews, and if you like the people that would be your boss, we can go that route. If you don't, you can change your mind later, and we can hire a new product owner." So she just gave me some options, and I ultimately decided to take it, and I'm still really happy. It's been two years. I lead a team of product owners and data analysts, and it's been a huge learning curve. Strengths get in the way a lot, but it's been great.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:53

So let me ask you about that time, two years ago, then. So obviously you and I got to meet at that time period, and from what I remember of our conversation, you had already started going back through your ideal career profile and then trying to basically check the boxes, for lack of better phrase, and determine what lines up what potentially doesn't line up. And then we had a conversation about what could line up even better than you imagine. What do you remember about that time period? What was your focus on?

Cheri 05:31

I think after being in a job where I was unhappy for a long time, for me, one of the most important things was to be happy in my role. I didn't want to be in a spot where I was like, stressed out or didn't like what I was doing, and so I needed to make sure that this is going to align with all the things that I'd learned, right, my strengths. And that's a big one. And I mean, what I wanted. And, you know, I reviewed the job description, I talked with my boss, I talked to lots of people to think, to kind of gage if they thought it was going to be the right fit for me, which I know seems strange, but you know, sometimes people have a different perspective view than you do of yourself. And I just needed to make sure it was going to be the right fit for me, because I didn't want to end up in a spot where I wasn't happy.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:17

Do you remember any of the pieces where you were not entirely sure about? Like, as you were going through your ICP, or you're having those conversations with friends or other people that knew you, what were some of the pieces that popped up that seemed questionable at the time?

Cheri 06:34

My biggest concern was, I'm very blunt and direct, and I was really concerned about having the tough conversations with people. And it's still a concern every time I have a tough conversation with someone, but what you told me was, "make sure you're being helpful", and that has been so impactful to me, because that's what I do in every conversation I have. I just try to make sure I'm being helpful. So people appreciate, you know, straightforwardness. I don't know that they always appreciate quite how blunt I am, but I do my best to make sure that I'm helpful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:05

When we were going through and we were having that conversation, I also remember one of the things that you had mentioned to me was you had a concern about, "How am I going to learn this?" Not just around the communication pieces for making sure that your version of direct and blunt is also helpful at the same time, but in some other areas too, as you're transitioning from one role to another, and you recognized, I think rightfully so, that there was going to be a learning curve associated with it, and you didn't want the expense of that learning curve to drain out the enjoyment that you had grown accustomed to. It sounded like. So I guess my question is, how did you go about addressing that learning curve?

Cheri 07:57

I'm still learning. I think my boss is phenomenal and has been like a true mentor and has guided me in all of the things. I still make mistakes. I am accountable for making mistakes, the mistakes I make. I read a lot. I reach out to people to get their take before... if I've done something that I'm a little bit unsure of, I ask for feedback, like, "Was that okay? Was that not okay? What could I have done differently?" Yeah, it's a process. I continue to learn every day.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:33

Okay. So here's a totally different question. You've done a lot of work digging into your strengths when you went through that initial career change. How have you found that you use that knowledge of yourself and your strengths as you've grown your career and, ultimately, what your version of ideal looks like?

Cheri 08:53

All the time, every day, achiever is one of my strengths. It's probably my top one. It is often in the way because I'm very much a person who likes to get things done, to check them off the list. And as a people manager, I can't be the one who checks them off the list. I have to help others check them off the list. And not everybody works the same way I do. So that's been probably my biggest struggle, is allowing that to be okay with me. You know what I mean? Like, obviously, they can work however they want, and I just have to be okay with the fact that not everybody works like me, and not everybody learns the way that I do. And so I think that's recognizing that that's the achiever in me has been huge. I think, had I not done this, had I not gone through that exercise and figured out what my strengths were, I don't know that I could take that step back and recognize that it's me getting in the way of myself.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:46

You know, I think also that raises the question for me, how do you find that you're able to take some of this knowledge that you've accumulated for yourself and help your team grow in their roles and make their work a better fit in one way or another? Because that's part of what I think I hear you alluding to, like, everybody works differently, right?

Cheri 10:08

Yeah, yep. It kind of ebbs and flows on how much I focus on it. But I have, on more than one occasion, recommended that they... specific people at my team, not all of them, but look into what their strengths are, what their style is, how they work best, how they learn best. Last year as a team, there are 14 of us. We did the MBTI, and it was really interesting, so interesting to see how some of us were alike, and some of us were so different, and the people that I thought were like me were generally the opposite, and vice versa. So that was really interesting. But I think it's important to know ourselves and to learn these things about ourselves, so I do recommend those kinds of things to my team. Can't force them to do it, but I like when they do. Makes my life a little easier.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:03

So, tell me more along this line of strengths, then. What else have you found that has changed how you're looking at how you're doing work in order to lead with your strengths, or in order to focus on where you can best contribute?

Cheri 11:17

So one of my strengths is learner, which you know, when I'm reading about strengths, a learner is either learning or teaching. I'm a terrible teacher. Horrible teacher. And so that has been, as a people manager, that's been kind of a struggle. Like, I want to be learning, but I need to be teaching and I need to be coaching. So I've been spending a lot of time figuring out how to be a better coach. So you know, reading different articles, reading different books, asking more questions.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:47

What I hear you say is that you recognize that you're a learner, and for you, that means spending lots of time learning and then working with other people as you're learning to improve yourself, and then working with other people to help them improve. And part of the way that you're doing that is by coaching. It sounds like part of the learning you've been focused on has been learning to ask better questions, learning to be able to allow other people to...

Cheri 12:22

I have just been, like, "I'm not a good teacher, and I need to figure this out, but I'm a great learner, and I need to help them to learn." I like that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:31

Well, sometimes you have to come on the HTYC podcast to be able to put it all together. Like, that is what we do around here. No. But seriously, though, I think that just knowing what I know about you, that I could absolutely see that being very, very, very true, because you do have this, not just propensity to learn, but also this need or desire to be able to learn. And I think for you, from everything I know about you in the past, I've seen that you also apply it really well to whatever real world situation that you're in, as long as you're feeding that learning, and as long as you're seeing how to use it with other people. Is that right?

Cheri 13:15

Yeah, that's absolutely true. And we had talked about one time before that in previous jobs, I wasn't feeding that learning quite enough. And so I find things outside of work where I could continue to do that, because it is such a strong part of me. And here I've, I mean, in this new role, I've spent, I mean, every day still learning stuff. So keep it at work. Keep my learning at work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:40

Well, that's fun that you get to roll that into something that you get to contribute for in that way, and then certainly get compensated for too. And that's not right for everybody, but it sounds like it has been for this period of time for you.

Cheri 13:53

Right. And it's, I love learning about myself and how the brain works and different things like that. So I think it's been really, it's been fun for me too. It's not just been valuable to me and my team, but I think it's also been fun for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:05

Yeah, that's cool. So tell me a little bit about, like, as you reflect on the last two years, these couple of changes, what do you feel like you've learned about what creates a more fulfilling career for yourself?

Cheri 14:21

It's a really good question. I think the autonomy and the mastery that you mentioned that, like, I know that's just human nature, but I think that that has been so important to me to be able to really have ownership of something and be really good at it. If I'm not good at something, I'm generally not happy doing it. So I think that was my biggest struggle. I think when I decided whether or not I wanted to take this job was, if I'm not going to be good at it, I'm not going to be happy, and I needed to be happy because I was so happy in my previous role, and then continuing to be able to do things that allow me to grow as a person. So, you know, the learner we just talked about, and then every day, even outside of that, I learned something new about the platform that we work on, of a business that we work with, or the people that I work with, and I think that's really fun for me, too.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:09

How is it? Here's a kind of crazy question for you, but I'm curious. Three years ago, you made your initial career change. Well, not I mean, you made changes before, however, let's call it the first intentional career change. And with that intentional career change, that was very different from what you were experiencing just a little bit longer than three years ago. How is life different now compared to when you were in that last job before your intentional career change three years ago?

Cheri 15:44

I'm just a happier person. I'm a better partner, I'm a better parent, I'm a better friend, because I'm happier. That's been huge.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:53

That's amazing. Do you find that other people notice too? How do you know you're happier? I'm curious. That sounds like a silly question, but...

Cheri 16:05

Well, I get dressed in the morning.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:07

That is a good sign.

Cheri 16:09

Which I know, like, that sounds so stupid, but where I'm currently at, we have our cameras on all the time. And where I was previously, we never did. I never met my co-workers, like, I would talk to them, I could see them on the sidewalk, though, and never have known who they were. But I would literally work in my pajamas, and I don't do that anymore. I get dressed every day, which, like I said, I know that sounds stupid, but it's a thing. I needed to be a little bit more put together when I started my day. And I think that that was just a symptom of me not being in a place where I was happy and fulfilled, like I worked in my pajamas.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:46

That's interesting. So for you, like, getting dressed and getting, whatever your version of readied for the day, was a sign that you felt that it was worthwhile or worth your while, right? Versus previously, you just scrolling in your pajamas because it was not a great experience for you, is what I'm hearing, so.

Cheri 17:13

And I mean, I'm much calmer.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:15

How does that show up? Like, how do you...?

Cheri 17:19

Yes. I have a teenager. I don't yell nearly as much as I used to, and granted, that's something I've also been working on very intentionally, but I'm 100% a yeller. And I think just being in a role where I'm truly happy, because that's one less thing that I'm stressed about and one less thing that I need to yell about.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:38

That's really cool, actually, that is amazing. And also I would imagine that being able to be in a role that you are feeling much better about, probably gives you more of the headspace than to focus on, like, I heard you say a moment ago, like, "I've been... That's something I've been working on intentionally." But that probably gives you the headspace to work on that as well.

Cheri 18:00

Right. I'm not stressed out. I'm not frustrated. I'm not spending my evening dreading the morning. So I have the space in my brain to focus on life, like making dinner and spending time with my family, and, you know, whatever those things are.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:19

That's really cool. It's really amazing to me how distress, particularly, not necessarily eustress, because there's multiple types of stress. Eustress is often known as the good stress, and distress the bad stress. That's not exclusively true. However, for the purposes of our conversation, distress for long periods of time, it's funny now it just zaps or dissolves all other energy. It's crazy.

Cheri 18:46

Yep, all of it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:49

Well, here's a totally different question for you. I think that something I am curious about also is one of the cool things when we get to have somebody come on after a couple of years of experience and time lapse in between, is that often having that initial intentional career change changes how they do other things, not just in work, but also in life. So I'm curious what else might have changed along the way for you. And then also, I'm curious what advice you might have for someone else who is wanting to make way back, think three years ago, somebody who's in that situation where they're thinking about an intentional career change. So let's do those one at a time. First, where else have you seen your life change because of that intentional career change?

Cheri 19:48

My husband is wanting to make a shift. He's been doing the same thing for a very long time with different employers, but the same general thing. He's been wanting to make a shift. And I'm going to use the word harp, but I talk at him all the time about how he needs to put in the work, and he needs to figure out what he wants to do, and he needs to, I don't tell him to do an ideal career profile, but I tell him, like, the basics– you need to figure out what your ideal day looks like. How do you want to wake up? What do you want to wear to work? What do you want the setting to look like? Trying to make him focus, or kind of reframe his thoughts because he and I have talked, and he's not a dreamer, and I think you and I have talked about that too, like I was never a dreamer. I never thought about what I wanted this kind of like abstract thing to look like. So I think having gone through this program, I have gained a little bit that I try to help other people with if they're wanting to make a shift in one way or another. And it doesn't even necessarily need to be a career, it could be they want to even grow at work. What does that look like for you? What do you want to be doing? So one of my team members and I have been having a conversation about what she wants her future to look like. And so, you know, I am like, "Well, what does that look like for you? What's your ideal? What do you need to have to make that happen?" And then, once we had that like, it basically gives me an outline of where I can help her grow so that she can get to where she wants to be.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:23

That is really cool. That's really awesome, actually. Here's the reason I love that. Because... Have you and I talked about our secret mission before at all? Have we had that conversation? Would you like to know the secret mission? I actually don't have to... If I tell you, I don't have to... Nothing has to happen after that. No, seriously, though, our secret mission is to be able to work with enough people that are in positions or grow to be in positions that they have the authority or influence that they can then help the organizations, and certainly the people in the organizations, be able to get to their own personal version of fit too. Because the reality is, we're not going to work with every single person in the world, and if we really want to make an impact in the way that we do, then there has to be a ripple effect. So thank you, by the way, for honoring the secret mission you're now inducted in. Yes. You were doing it without even knowing it. Way to go. No, seriously though, that's a big deal. I think it's really cool for you to be able to, one, do this for yourself and then start to apply that learning, which is what you do anyway. We already established that earlier. You can't help but do that, take that learning, those things that you've done for yourself, and be able to help use it become applicable for other people. And I would guess that that is probably incredibly valuable to the people that you get to work with in one way or another. May not always feel comfortable, but that doesn't mean it's not incredibly valuable. That's pretty awesome.

Cheri 23:08

It's one of my favorite things to do, which I just realized right now, is to... and part of what I learned on other people. Like, if I've taken even snippets of something away from something, I like being able to pass that along so that other people can have that knowledge. When I started teaching yoga, and that was why I did it, so that I could offer it to other people for free, who I felt like needed to have 10 minutes of yoga in their day.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:36

When did you start teaching yoga?

Cheri 23:38

In 2016. It was one of the things that I needed to do when I needed something to learn.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:43

I guess this was one of the outside of work, things that you were searching for. That's cool.

Cheri 23:48

Yeah. And I wanted to, I worked with all these people who, you know, we sat at a desk like this all the time. So, you know, and I wanted to be able to do yoga for free with these people. I didn't want them to have to pay for it, and so I did yoga teacher training, and then I started teaching at work, and people could take class for free, because I wanted to be able to give them that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:10

Yeah, that is really awesome. And now, years later, you're noticing the pattern that that's a thing for you and that's important for you.

Cheri 24:19

This is a good conversation we have. I do take things away from this.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:23

Oh, my goodness, you heard it here first. So totally different question then. What advice would you give to other people who are in that place? Now that you're three years removed from an intentional career change and you've been able to continue to build on what you have learned through that initial career change, and now you're into, what we would call refinement of your career, what advice would you give to people who are way back and just thinking about making a change for the first time?

Cheri 24:55

My advice is the same as it was when I first did this. Know what you're running towards, and make sure you're running towards something and not away. That was advice that was given to me years ago by a friend, and it has stuck with me, and it's been such a driving factor in a lot of the things that I've done. Basically have a goal. Know what direction you're headed, because otherwise, you're just driving around aimlessly, going nowhere.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:22

I love it. Do you have anything else that we didn't already cover?

Cheri 25:26

Oh, the last time we talked, I had mentioned... So one of the questions that you had asked me was, "What happened when things got hard?" Because they absolutely did. And I told you about a conversation that I'd had with someone, I don't even remember who it was. It was someone who was going through Happen To Your Career. And we were talking on LinkedIn one day, and I was venting about this job that I had applied for, and everything seemed great, and I was on like, the third interview, and they're like, "Oh, wait. This job is not remote," and it was hours away from here, so it's not something I was going to do. And I was so upset about it because it was really... It was the one I felt like. I need to point these things have a way of self-filtering and that, like, my attitude was crap then, and those few little words made such a huge impact into my attitude about the whole thing, and that's what helped me to kind of trudge along to end up where I'm at now. But that was the other thing I had in my notes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:22

What were those few little words?

Cheri 26:24

These things have a way of self filtering.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:25

These things have a way of self filtering. They do. I agree. Strange.

Cheri 26:32

Absolutely. Like, there was a reason that one didn't work out, and it was because it wasn't the right one for me for one reason or another. And so when he said that, it kind of like gave my brain the space to think that way and be less upset about it and continue on until I found the right fit. But yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:49

That is... I've thought a lot about this over the years for that type of advice because if some people believe in fate or that things happen for a reason, and for a long time, I was sort of back and forth, like, "I don't know if I believe in fate or not." However, here's what I've realized, is that the psychological impacts of choosing to believe things happen for a reason far outweighs whether or not you're actually right about whether or not they happen for a reason or not. So I'm just gonna go with what serves me really well. You could be... Yeah. What did you say earlier? You know, when that initially happened, you were, I don't know, less than excited. I can't remember what word that you used.

Cheri 27:40

I had a crappy attitude.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:41

You had a crappy attitude, yeah. So you could continue to have a crappy attitude. Or you could choose to believe that it happened for a reason.

Cheri 27:48

Right. And it led me to the path that I am now on, which is I'm very happy with, so...

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:55

Very cool. Okay, if you think about career refinement as opposed to career change, so the continuous act of refining and re-establishing your ideals, what you want, and then also your minimums, which also have a tendency to have your expectations increase in both areas once you've done something as difficult as an intentional career change. So my question is, for people who are in the place where they want to continue to refine their career, what advice would you give that person?

Cheri 28:31

I have this post it note on my desk that says "We can honor who we are as people and still push ourselves." And I think that has been... I read it every day, and I think acknowledging who I am, what my strengths are, what my weaknesses are, who I want to be, but still kind of pushing on some of those weaknesses, anti strengths, has been a big thing for me. It has helped me to grow in my role. It has helped me to grow as a person. It's helped me to be a better version of myself. So I think finding something that is meaningful to you, maybe. So this little statement, for whatever reason, is just meaningful to me, and it kind of helps me to find a trajectory I want to be on.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:20

That's fun. I love that one too. You know, earlier, you were talking about how it was really important to you since you were already in a role that you were excited about and you loved to not just make a change because it was right in front of you, or it was available to you, or people were asking. And so I know part of the goal was just to continue to move into a role that you loved. What did you find? Were there areas that were even better than what you could have imagined, or what ended up happening there?

Cheri 29:57

I think that there are areas that are better and then there are areas that are worse. So this has been a little bit of a push for me, because it's definitely outside of my comfort zone, or it was outside of my comfort zone. It's a little better now. But, you know, we talked about having those tough conversations, that's been a real challenge for me. I don't, because I'm very blunt, and I don't... I'm not in the weeds anymore where I love being, and so that's been a little bit of a challenge. But I love that I get to continue to grow, and I get to help other people grow. Love that. And I don't think I necessarily expected that when I was deciding whether or not I was going to take the job, that's not really something that I factored in, is that's what I got to do, and I love that part of it. And just as a side note, I have told you this so many times, but I am so grateful that I went through this because it's just changed who I am as a person. It has, it's given me more confidence that I am making the right decisions for myself and being able to help others make the right decisions for them. So I'm just so grateful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:04

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:56

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 32:02

I realized it wasn't so much important of, like, what my next career title was gonna be, but it was more important for me what I wanted in a company.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:12

The great application myth tells us that more is better, right? Apply to 100 jobs, get 10 interviews, receive one offer. But what if this common wisdom was completely backwards, especially if you're going after work that actually fits that you enjoy? What if focusing on fewer opportunities, maybe even just a few perfect organizations for you, could dramatically increase your chances of landing work that fits? When you stop being a resume flinging machine and start being a relationship building human, everything changes. The path to your ideal workplace isn't paved with generic applications. It's built on targeted connections and the courage to go all in on what truly fits.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:59

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it, and if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player, so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week, until next week. Adios, I'm out.