645: Passed Over at Work? How Karen Turned Awkward Career Moves Into Her Dream Job

Karen Senger 00:00: It was supposed to be hiring someone that I would supervise, but ended up hiring a new supervisor for me, which was kind of strange and kind of awkward. It didn't feel all that great.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:16: You've probably had this happen before. You work in a new role for a while, and then you get a new boss. And many times, a change comes. A lot of times, it might be an unwanted change. You wonder if things are gonna get better, maybe things will get worse, what's going to happen, you don't know. What doesn't usually happen, though, is that when you get a new boss, you end up taking the role that your boss previously had. This can actually be a really awkward situation. But it can also be one of the best things that could possibly happen.

Karen Senger 00:48: I had been the person that had jumped from positions when I got kind of discontent, or I wanted more. I'm a learner, that's one of my strengths. I was always looking for more learning opportunities, more challenges, but I didn't always know what I should be jumping into.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:10: That's Karen Senger. She found herself in an awkward position when someone that was supposed to be hired for her direct report ended up being her new boss instead. Fortunately, Karen had already been doing quite a bit of self discovery and trying to figure out what she really wanted to be doing. We got the opportunity to work with her in our Career Change Bootcamp program previously. So now, when she found herself in this new situation that would be pretty alarming for most people, she was already on the lookout for what she really, truly wanted. Well, the position her new boss came from happened to be her dream role at the great organization she already admired.

Karen Senger 01:48: So, if we go back to my college days, I was very much interested in getting into the world of nonprofits. I was interested in doing PR and Marketing for charitable organizations. And that's what I did coming out of college. I majored in public relations. And then I went to work for a food bank and really loved it, enjoyed it. And so my career took off from there. I was doing PR and Marketing in the beginning with charitable organizations. And then I started to move more into fundraising, and more into volunteer management and other areas of the nonprofit organization kind of management sphere, and then also worked for some higher education institutions. And so I've had this long career, about 25 years, doing marketing and fundraising for nonprofit organizations. And then about three years ago or so, I thought, "Wow, do I still want to do this? I still have a lot of interest and passion in this area. Or do I want to do something totally different?" And I was coming up on my 50th birthday. And I think that was, you know, you start to, I don't know, look out ahead of you and go, "Wow, okay. I don't have as many years in front of me, maybe as I used to. And what does that look like? And what do I want to continue to do?" And I was also in a position that... I was at an organization, I just made a change, thinking it was going to be the right fit. And then it turned out not to be. And I kind of learned all the reasons why. Really, because of going through the Career Change Bootcamp that I participated in and really doing that deep dive, looking at my strengths, which I had done before, but hadn't really gone really deep into it and understanding how I should understand those strengths and bring those into a job, into a career and then just working through what were my desires, what was my ideal career profile. I had been the person that had jumped from positions when I got kind of discontent or I wanted more. I'm a learner, that's one of my strengths. So I was always looking for more learning opportunities, more challenges, but I didn't always know what I should be jumping into. Which I think is the case for a lot of people, right? We think we just don't get really clear and focused sometimes about what do I really need to have in that particular job or that particular work environment to make me happy. So I knew things I didn't like, I didn't always know the things that I did like or that I did have. So I mostly found things that work, but maybe weren't always clicking really well. And then the most recent opportunity just was not the right fit. So it made me really question like, "Do I even want to do this anymore, this particular work? Or do I need to go into a different industry?" So I began exploring.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:55: We got to work with you closely inside Career Change Bootcamp. And there were absolutely some of those elements that you mentioned in terms of, we utilize a tool called the Ideal Career Profile. But here's what I'm curious about. When you think back to that process of distilling down what it is that you want, and what your desires are, what do you feel like helped you the most? Is there anything that stands out in terms of, you know what, this area was really, really helpful, either inside or outside the bootcamp? That way, other people can benefit from that too, what worked for you.

Karen Senger 05:33: I think for me, it was just really being honest with myself. Really being honest with what do I want, what's important to me. I tend to be... So, I'm an obliger, which means I think about everybody else first and don't really put my needs first. And so realizing that it was okay for me to have certain desires and certain needs, and that wasn't being selfish or self centered, that, that was, like, really important. I think that was the key for me. And that's hard. It's hard for someone like me to do that. But that was really important. And I have to say that that ideal career profile was really a great tool, and really sitting down and going, "Okay, yeah, what do I need to be happy where I'm working? Like, what does my work environment need to look like? What are the people need to look like that I'm working with? What kind of people do I want to work with? What's the culture need to look like? Do I need a window or not? Do I need a big office?" Or I mean, the things that you think are not maybe really that important, are really important.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:53: Well, it's almost a little bit... I think about it a little bit like building a recipe for yourself for some level of happiness and fulfillment, especially as it relates to your work, but also in other areas of your life, because it's really hard to separate out too. And I think that that's really what it is. But so many of us, especially if we have a tendency to be obligers, which by the way, is a reference to Gretchen Rubin's "Four Tendencies". Gretchen's doing podcast in the past, and she separates into four categories. And as an obliger, you are motivated by the expectations of others in a lot of cases. And when you fall into that category, and you're motivated by other people's expectations in one way or another, then it's especially challenging to take the time and energy to figure out what that recipe is for yourself, in one way or another. So what prompted you to decide, "Look, this matters to me. And I'm going to take the time and energy to put it towards myself in this way." Is there anything that stands out looking back where it kind of clinched it for you, and you said, "I'm going to. Yeah, this is happening."?

Karen Senger 08:12: Well, I remember, I heard you present on something, Scott. And it was at this point where I was just trying, I was like, "Well, what do I want to do? I'm not really happy, but I don't want to keep jumping from job to job without having a plan." And I'm also that person who thinks, "Well, surely I can do this myself, right? I'm an intelligent person. I can figure this out. I've read lots of books about this." But then I realized, you know what, I need help, and that's okay. I needed someone to walk me through that process and just hold myself accountable, which again, is something obligers need. That's helpful is just that accountability, because we do tend to defer to other people's expectations or other people's goals and not stick to our own goals and desires. So I just, I thought, "You know what, I'm just going to do this." And I realized that it's worth the investment to spend on me, and to really do some good quality work, self reflection, and figure this out. Because I didn't want to keep going on and on, kind of, spinning my wheels and sort of finding things that were sort of halfway working, but not working all the way.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:37: So, I think it's pretty safe to say that you're in the pretty ideal role for you right now. Tell people about what you get to do these days.

Karen Senger 09:48: Yes, I'm so excited. I am the Chief Philanthropy Officer at the Community Foundation of Western Nevada. And that's really kind of a dream job. I am working with people in the community who want to be charitable, who want to be philanthropic, and are looking for guidance and advice around how to set up their philanthropy, whether that's a donor advised fund, or an endowment, or a scholarship fund, or some other charitable arrangement, I get to work with those individuals, those families, and help them set that up. And it feels really good, because I'm helping them realize their philanthropic goals and the impact they want to have, and the community and the legacy they want to leave behind. And, you know, helping to improve our community, our region, actually. So it's really exciting work that aligns well with my past experience, my passions, my interests, my strengths. So I'm super excited.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:58: Tell me about that. Because you've now been in the role for a relatively short period of time, just a couple of months, almost two months or so, right? And this is something that aligns very well with your strengths and wants. And I would say, this is pretty much your ideal career for you right now, in a lot of ways. So why is that? What are some of those elements that line up so well for you?

Karen Senger 11:23: Right. So, for me, it's really important for me to feel like I'm a resource to people and helping them get from point A to point B. And whether that's, I mean, that could take a lot of shapes. I could be doing a lot of different things and helping people in that way. But I also have this interest in philanthropy and bettering communities, and charitable giving. And so to be in that realm, and being able to help people work through their goals of what they want to do around charitable giving, around their philanthropy work, really lines up with what I love to do. And just being in that advisory role, and being seen as someone that is an expert, or that is a resource, is really important to me. And actually something that I didn't really realize or acknowledge until just really recently, like, that was important to me to be in that role as kind of that expert or resource leader kind of person. I think I downplayed that thinking, oh, like, maybe that's too, like, I should be more humble, or maybe, you know... But realizing that, no, that's important, and that's okay. So, yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:51: And I think, as I've got the opportunity to know you better, I think that really fits both your personality and strengths. But here's what I'm curious about, what do you feel like that does for you? Because I heard you say, being in that advisory type capacity is something that is really important to you. So what does that do for you? Or what does that do when you don't have it? What happens when you are missing that?

Karen Senger 13:18: Yeah. So what it does for me is just makes me feel really energized and valued and useful. It makes me feel like I matter and that I can contribute and help people to achieve what they're trying to achieve. So it makes me feel important and useful. And when I don't have it, and so I've been in roles where I've had more of that and been in roles where I haven't, although I didn't really understand that that was important to have, so I should have kept looking for roles with that. But when I haven't had it, I feel underutilized. I feel like I want to contribute, and I'll put my ideas out there. I'll say, "Hey, I've got a great resource. Or would you like help with that?" And when that is not desired, I think, "Well, okay, I guess I don't feel like I'm helping, I'm being beneficial, I'm supporting, I'm being relevant to people or to situations."

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:28: When you think about this most recent change that you have made, what do you think was the most difficult piece of it for you?

Karen Senger 14:39: Well, I think there were a few things. So one, I realized, okay, maybe I don't want to change professions. I mean, I don't want to get out of the nonprofit and philanthropy industry. But maybe if I'm doing something different in that, that can really work. I think the reason that was a little bit difficult is because you think, "Oh, yeah, maybe I just need to change entirely", like, throw the baby out with the bathwater. And that's not always the case. And I think I'd heard lots of people on your podcast talking, which were always helpful, helped me keep going, helped me keep motivated to continue to do this work. But also, I'd hear everybody, you know, they're jumping from one total different career to another. And I thought, "Okay, yeah, maybe that's what I need to do." But then realizing, "Well, no, wait a minute. Maybe I don't." Because I kept thinking, I like the work, I liked the industry. But the specific activities I was doing were not working for me. So I think that's really important for people to realize, like maybe, sometimes it doesn't have to be a really big change. But it could be something that's a smaller change, or seems smaller in the big scheme of things. So that sort of made it a little bit difficult.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:10: That's really interesting. I will ask you a little bit about that. Because what you said about, you know, I had heard other people on the show, on the podcast, and they made these big changes from one type occupation to another. And I think that that is absolutely true. However, when we get to see the inside of those changes, there's always some major element that's actually carried over. Sometimes, even though it's a completely different occupation on the surface, or a completely different industry on the surface, behind the scenes, when we look into those changes, there's always some major element that's carried over. Like, they had a huge amount of experience in the area that was needed for this particular role, even though it's in a different industry, or it happens to be in the same industry, but it's doing different, there's always something that is carried over. And I think that's the part that, you know, when we do these types of podcasts, and we're just giving people a tidbit into their life that gets missed under the surface, there's always something. Because it's usually a case of building upon where people... building on people's journeys, in terms of experiences that they already have, rather than cutting bait and starting over. That's much more of a rarity. Mostly because I don't think too many people want to start over, but there's some other reasons too.

Karen Senger 17:36: I mean, that is so true. So yeah, I'm not sure why I've kind of felt like, "Oh, I've got to make this big change", because you're right. I mean, and I think about those different podcasts I've heard, there was always something there that was sort of a foundation or something that was carrying over, that was a connector to sort of that next thing. And yeah, you're absolutely right.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:02: It's been really interesting. A lot of the conversations that we've had on our team behind the scenes, as we have continued to evolve this podcast and this show, is how do we represent what it's actually like going through this type of life change in one way or another. And it's really, in many different ways, easy to give people an inaccurate idea. So I really appreciate you pointing that out and calling that out. Because I think so many people feel that need. I don't know how many emails we get in a week or in a day that are something to the effect of, "Hey, I feel like I really want to make a... I feel like I just need to make this big change. I'm done with marketing. Or I'm done with..." You know, whatever it happens to be. And that is true for some of the time. Some of the time we need to make a complete change. But we find that for roughly, you know, someplace between 80 and 90% of the people that we work with, it's not as big of a change when you're looking at it on the inside. Sometimes it seems that way on the outside. Going through that, what were some of the elements that you felt like you got to keep, definitely the same type of industry in some ways, but what do you feel like the elements that really, for you, were carried over and you get to build upon in this new role, rather than are brand new?

Karen Senger 19:26: Right. So some of the elements I'm able to carry over are my experience and expertise, which is really important to me, again, being in that resource role. So that is really wonderful. And I'm now in a position that people actually look to me for guidance, for that expertise. And so that feels really, really good. Carrying over and kind of the work environment that I appreciate, you know, an environment that appreciates its employees, where the culture is very, very much a friendly-family like culture. You find that in the nonprofit sector a lot, especially with smaller to midsize nonprofit organizations. So I really appreciate that. Still being there. Let's see what else, carrying over, well, I guess all the connections I'd already made, because those people were important to me when I thought about, like, "Well, if I wasn't working with those people, what would that look like?" And I thought, "No, I really enjoy these people. The connections I have in the community." So that's really great that I can maintain those connections and those relationships.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:46: I think that's awesome. And I also think that the way that you made your transition is pretty unique, too. Share with us a bit of how that happened, and what you did, and what led up to it.

Karen Senger 21:02: Yeah, so it's an interesting story, and probably a great story for people out there who, I mean, you just never know how opportunities are gonna present themselves to you. And so at the organization that I had been with, I found myself in a position where my boss was hiring someone in over me. It was supposed to be hiring someone that I would supervise, but ended up hiring a new supervisor for me, which was kind of strange and kind of awkward. It didn't feel all that great. And he, you know, he emphasized that I was still very valued, it was just part of this team he was building. And so, I got that, I heard that. But I thought, "This isn't really lining up with my career trajectory, and what I wanted and what I was seeking." And this came at a time when I'm going through all of this sort of self discovery and trying to figure out what it is I want to do. And so this person that was hired in actually came from the Community Foundation where I'm at now. And so it opened up that opportunity. And so I thought, "Well, all right. I'm going to go pursue this opportunity." The Community Foundation, which is something, it's an organization I had been admiring for a few years, actually had been involved with, had done some volunteer work with them and served on a committee, and did some facilitating, actually, for them. And so I already had a good relationship with a lot of the people there, and with the CEO there. And so I reached out to him, and I said, "Hey, this might be kind of awkward. But, you know, if that position that just became vacant, because we hired that person away from you." I said, "I'm interested in coming over there." So it was kind of this swap thing. Somebody told me it was like a really great round of Red Rover, right? Red Rover, Red Rover, send Karen on over. And we were sort of these two people swapping positions. But that sometimes things happen like that. So it was sort of a making lemonade out of lemons kind of situation. But actually a really, I mean, a really great opportunity for me, and turns out to be lining up with my ideal career and really what I was looking for, and I hope the person that came over to my previous orientation, I hope that it's a really great fit for her. So yeah, I mean, kind of felt weird and awkward, but I thought, "Why not. There's this opportunity that's presented itself, and I'm gonna go for it."

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:41: I think one of the things that I've learned over time, and that is so cool, and I love that you went for it. And I'm sure that in many ways it was outside your comfort zone to be able to make that happen. Also, at the same time, I definitely learned that ideal has a tendency to live on the other side of awkward or uncomfortable, so nicely done. And I think that there's a couple of things that are really easy to gloss over as well. For example, that people listening to your story may not have realized that to be able to make that happen, it wasn't necessarily like a setup for you on a silver platter. But you had to actually reach out to them. If I understood correctly. Right?

Karen Senger 24:30: Right. Yeah. Well, and I wanted to seize the moment. So I wanted to really be assertive. And yeah, take the bull by the horns and say, "Hey, look, I am really interested in this opportunity. If you're so interested in me, let's get together and talk." And it created a really nice natural transition, actually, a very conversational transition, so that the CEO and I could, I mean, at first we had, we exchanged emails, and then we had a phone call conversation that was very casual. He was telling me about the role, how he had kind of reconfigured it a bit. And I told him about my interests. And what I was looking for. I was able to articulate to him my strengths and what I was looking for in a position, which was really helpful for him because he could get a really clear picture of who I was. And, also, if it wasn't going to fit, it wasn't going to fit. I was finally at this point in my career, thanks again to doing all of this career exploration and really understanding who I am and what I need. I was at a point where I wasn't going to compromise, like, here's what I am looking for, here's what I can bring, here are my strengths, and then finding out from him what he's looking for, and what the position is all about. And we just continued to have some conversations. I did go in for a couple of in-person interviews, but I would say there were really more conversations, which was really nice, because we could just talk for a very candidly, and it felt so good. And then I could, you know, based on what he was telling me, the position looked like and the organization, I had my ideal career profile that I could say, "Alright, check that box, check that box, check that box. Oh, you know, this one, you know, I want a little bit more time off." So I actually negotiated for that, I said, "I'd really love to have a few more days off." And so got that. So it really does help you identify what you need, what you can bring to an organization, and where you should negotiate.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:39: Many of these things that you just mentioned are so subtle, but we have so many people that have been in the exact same situation, because here's what it sounds like, had to happen to lead up to the perfect storm of job opportunity, if you want to call it that. You had to go through all of that self work, we'll call it, that career exploration as you had mentioned, and really clarify what you wanted, and really what made that ideal opportunity. And then you had to do that, otherwise, you may not have recognized it, it sounds like, for what it is to even take the opportunity that semi awkward opportunity to reach out and initiate this situation and actually turn it into something that became an opportunity, and then getting into the interview process or those conversations about the role, which is almost a backdoor type way in, because it doesn't sound like it was through a normal necessarily application process, which initiates often a more formal way to go. But that sounds like led to you being able to have much more of a frank conversation and stand your ground for what you wanted and needed to. Is that right?

Karen Senger 27:53: That's exactly right.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:03: So here's my question then, you've done an amazing job being able to do that hard work and clarify what it is that you want and need in a role and in your life. And you've made this really cool, unique change. What advice would you have for people that are back on the other side, where they're in that place where they know that they want to do something different, but haven't yet done that work? Or haven't yet taken those steps that you've described?

Karen Senger 28:27: Right. Well, I would say, give yourself time, be patient. I mean, this has been a two and a half year journey for me, and that's hard. Because when we're ready for change, we were ready for change. I mean, like we were ready for that next thing to happen. And so I'd say, be patient. Like I said, the podcasts kept me going because there were definitely times when I would get kind of down or discouraged or, you know, because I was talking to people, I wanted to find out about other industries, other kinds of careers, those were all great experiences. I was then applying to some different kinds of positions and trying to really connect, show how my skills could transfer and, you know, got some interviews and sometimes didn't, and so it can be discouraging, but being patient is really important and and whatever it is that helps you keep going to find that thing, whether that's listening to a podcast or reading a book, meeting with friends or a support group, somewhat rarely, right, just to be able to have that support, that encouragement that sort of keeps you going and keeps you hopeful. And then it's hard work. I had done a lot of self reflection before I participated in Career Change Bootcamp, I read a lot of books about career changing and strengths, and you know, find what you love and your passion, but when you really, really start to peel away the layers and go deep, and really figure out what it is what you want, it is hard work. It really is. I remember telling my coach, like, "This is some of the hardest work I've ever done." And so, but you know, like, sticking with it, and knowing that it's going to be hard, anything that's really worth having, or doing, or experiencing is not easy, necessarily. And that I think that's all difficult in this day and age, because we're used to everything happening so quickly, right, everybody, instant gratification, right? We get the text message, and everything happens quickly. But you know, that's not the case when you're doing self reflection, and you're exploring, and I needed time to have these meetings with individuals to find out more about other careers. That took time and courage, too. Sometimes, I was really excited about reaching out and setting up those informational meetings. And other times I was like, "Oh, gosh, they're gonna think I'm goofy." Or, "Why don't you have your career figured out at your age now?" All that negative self-talk. So yeah, so that would be my advice, like, stay the course, be patient, and just realize it's going to be hard work, but it's worth it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:20: Hey, if you're ready to be clear on what you want and find what fits you, I would say just email me — pause this right now — scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Put “Conversation” in the subject line. I'll connect you with somebody on my team, the right person on my team, who can help you discover your ideal career profile. Again, it's scott@happentoyourcareer.com.