Imagine this scene: you’re driving to the office, and you feel your stomach tighten up.

It’s not like butterflies, it’s more like anxious nerves starting to kick into high gear.

You park, hesitate for a moment in the car before walking up to the building, sigh, and wonder to yourself, “Do I really *have* to today?”

But if you’re anything like the thousands of people we’ve helped, there’s a part of your brain that probably also pipes up and says: “Appreciate what you have! This is a stable job with good benefits, is impressive to other people, and gives you vacation and sick leave. And leaving would have huge consequences on your family, your mortgage payments…what would you even do instead?”

Or, even more scary: “What if I change jobs and it’s worse?”

It makes it really painful to start to answer the question: Should I Quit My Job?

But it doesn’t have to be.

Here are four questions to help you weigh the Pros and Cons of quitting your job — versus some of the possible potential upside of staying.


The first question to answer is the most important: why do I want to leave in the first place? What is driving my decision?

Don’t skate past this question; this is deeper than it seems on first blush.

To get to the bottom of it, write out every single reason, petty or gigantic, that’s motivating your desire to leave. Give yourself 10 minutes of uninterrupted time where your pen never leaves the paper to get them all out of your brain.

Then, take a look at what you’re feeling and thinking. Look for big trends, and look for the reasons that feel particularly emotionally charged.

When you have perspective and can evaluate your reasons outside of your brain, are you wanting to leave because you’re running away from something?

POTENTIALLY RUNNING AWAY = My coworker drives me crazy. I work insane hours. I got demoralizing feedback on a recent project. I didn’t get a big enough raise this last promotion cycle. My manager and I have communication issues.

Running away from setting boundaries or asking for what you truly want can mean that the next job you run into will have the same old baggage and negative behavior patterns, so you’re right to worry about whether it will be an upgrade. If you’re getting the sense you might be running away from a role and haven’t exhausted your options to make the situation better, check out our recent podcast with Melody Wilding on harnessing powerful emotions to set strong boundaries at work.

PROBABLY RUNNING TOWARD = I want to learn a new skill that I can’t find here. I’ve tried to get chances to do an internal pivot onto a new project, but have all been unsupported. This organization no longer aligns with my values. My manager isn’t championing me internally, so I’m less effective here. I’m ready to move to a new state, and can’t transfer with this organization.

However, if you can look at your list of reasons to leave and see that you’ve done everything in your power to make it work for you — and it won’t — it’s great to see why you need to leave outlined so explicitly. You now have a motivational manifesto as to why it’s time to quit and move on.


The second question to consider if you know quitting is the right move for you is: do I have the “runway” to do it now?

“Runway” means: do you have the savings in the bank to allow for you to be okay if you don’t get another job right away?

Here’s how you calculate your current financial runway: log into each of your bank accounts, and add up all the cash you have available to you in your checking and savings accounts. Look at your investments and add the value of the ones that are easier to liquefy and get out if needed (meaning: count personal investment amounts as part of your “runway” cash pot, but not 401(k) investments).

Then, take a look at your monthly spending over the past ~3 months, and come up with your average monthly spend. Include things like health insurance that your current employer might be subsidizing.

To determine your rough financial runway, take your total cash amount, and divide it by your average monthly spend. That tells you how many months you could go without any income (and fairly light adjustments of your spending) before you’d be in trouble.

For some people, this financial runway calculation looks like this:

Average monthly spending: $3,200

Total “liquifiable” and/or cash assets: $40,000 in cash, $18,000 in liquifiable investments = $58,000

Rough financial runway estimate: $58,000/$3,200 = ~18 months (18.125 months)

For others, it might be closer to this:

Average monthly spending: $6,600

Total “liquifiable” and/or cash assets: $20,000 in cash, $5,000 in liquifiable investments = $25,000

Rough financial runway estimate: $25,000/$6,600 = ~3 months (Really it’s closer to 3.8 months, but I’d recommend you round down)

Because life is uncertain and it’s better to be safe than sorry, we strongly recommend your financial runway include a minimum of 6 months of cash, with 9+ months’ worth being closer to ideal.

If doing this calculation leaves you in a cold sweat, don’t leave yourself vulnerable. You’ll probably want a financial runway like this on hand regardless of whether you’re thinking of quitting or not, because losing a job unexpectedly or having a sudden illness hit would also require you to have funds on hand. Start increasing your savings now. I did this in the past by asking for a raise and lowering my expenses so I needed less cash to get by each month. For ideas on how to ask for a raise, check out this episode of the podcast.

The other consideration as you’re calculating financial runway to quit your job might also be: do I have any liabilities or future gains that might make this more challenging? Are there things that I owe a lot of money on, upcoming large medical procedures that I’d like to use my employer’s coverage to pay for, or bonuses, vacation that doesn’t cash out, or other compensation on the table that I’d lose if I left now? Did my employer pay for my most recent degree, and I’d owe them some reimbursement if I left now? Understanding the financial logistics of leaving can be incredibly illuminating on whether now is the right time to quit, or if there are ways you can better take care of yourself before saying goodbye.


The third question is in terms of impact of your decision: who else has a vested interest in the outcome of this decision, and are they onboard and committed to making the same decision?

For me, a clear and obvious impact of my employment decision is how it affects my wife Alyssa and our kids.

Alyssa and I are a team, and I rarely do anything major in my business without consulting her and getting her feedback first. Not only is she incredibly smart and insightful when it comes to strategic decisions, but she’s also supportive while pointing out potential flaws in my master plans. And because I’m typically the breadwinner for our family, any dramatic decisions that I make about my work and paycheck have an immediate impact on her and the kids. So in order to feel like I’m acting in integrity, I need to make sure that she and I are in agreement about what’s right for me and for our family.

When I left my HR job at Target, I didn’t do a good job of involving Alyssa in that decision, and ended up putting her through a ton of stress that made me feel like a jerk. I’ve learned from that experience that bringing her into both the decision and the contingency planning process early and often is the best thing to do for our partnership, relationship, and friendship to stay strong.

The final question is: what’s going to be required for me to make a substantial life change like this?

Let me explain. In order to get results that are different from what you’ve always gotten, you have to take action in ways that are different from what you’ve always done.

For me, that meant finding more time. When I was working a 9-to-5 job and also being a dad, that was no small feat. I realized that I needed to do the most important things first in my day, so I started getting up early.

Really early. Like, 4am early.

And I would do things like record podcast episodes that early. Because when you’re committed to finding a way, and you’re willing to be flexible on the “how,” you can create awesome opportunities for yourself. We have Career Change Bootcamp students who make their transition by having the discipline to do their coursework and their homework assignments during their lunch break at work each day.

With Mike, he needed a break in between jobs to have the time and space to make his transition. So evaluate what’s true for you, and set yourself up for success.


1) Why do you want to leave in the first place? What is driving the decision? Is it 100% emotion thinking it will be better or something you are able to run to versus running away from?

2) Do you have the runway, the savings, or more liabilities than you can afford?

3) Who else has a vested interest and are they onboard and committed to making the same decision?

4) What do you need personally in terms of breakthroughs to make this substantial life change? It is substantial and I don’t want people to underestimate that.

Anything you would add having done it yourself?

Ready to quit, but not sure what to transition into? Get a crash course to help you get clear on what you’re great at and what kind of work could fit you best in our 8-day mini-course. Sign up here!

Mike Goodman 0:04
I don't want to waste my whole life being blah, I don't want to be counting down the weeks and the months and life was just passing by. And I knew if I didn't take a stand and change something, it wasn't gonna change. For another year go by and I'd still be at the same job in the same boat feeling the same way.

Introduction 0:30
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what it does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:54
Some people can just keep going forever in a job that they no longer find meaningful. But for many other people, there's an expiration date when it starts to get really painful to keep going to work, sitting at your desk, and knowing you're just not that excited about it. But if you're at that point, how do you know if you should just simply quit your job? Will that be the right move? And aside from the financial aspect, there are many other reasons that this could be the best, or the worst decision of your life.

Mike Goodman 01:29
Nothing felt exciting, nothing. I didn't have any sort of clue what I wanted to do work wise. I didn't have any sort of excitement in the role I was in. I was in this spiral that was just really, really, it was just bad. And I just felt like literally a constant state of blah was the best way to phrase it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:49
That's Mike Goodman. Several years ago, he came to us after working in Higher Education, and we had the pleasure of working with him as a client to find his ideal career next step. During his journey, Mike did a phenomenal job evaluating whether or not he should quit his job in Higher Ed before having the next role lined up. Later on in our conversation, you're going to learn four questions, we get into four specific questions to ask yourself to know if it makes sense for you to quit. And we're talking specifically about, without having another opportunity. But first, we need to start with how Mike got to this step in his career in the first place.

Mike Goodman 02:27
It has been a curvy road to say the least. Boy after college, I held a number of, you know, kind of entry level work positions, and then I decided I wanted to pursue a career in Higher Ed. So I started working for a small liberal arts college in the marketing office, and I really had fun with it at first. It was a cool way to learn some different, you know, everyone's responsible for managing a website, which I really liked, and I was the first point of contact for anybody that needed help, you know, marketing related projects, it was a fun role. But then it kind of, like any job I had held previously, I got to a point where it just kind of got stale. And while I was there, I decided to take advantage of a tuition benefit, and I went for another degree. And then when I finished, I moved on to another role. That was an advancement in title responsibility. And luckily also in PE. I never really felt overly engaged in the new role, but I felt like I needed to give it some time. And unfortunately, as time went on, my lack of engagement never really changed. If anything, I probably got more and more unengaged as time went on. And yet the funny part about that is of all the jobs I had held full time, I stayed in that role the longest. I started off, it didn't really feel like a fit. But yet I stayed in that role for just three or five years. I think I got to a point where I thought I had changed jobs a couple times as it was. And I thought, you know, "Is there really... is there anything out there I'm gonna like? And is there, you know, what if I change jobs and it's... what if it's something worse?" I did this routine with myself for several years while I was there where I would apply for jobs, I would sometimes get called for an interview. Sometimes I go to the interview or as the interviewer is approaching, I would change my mind and just think "nah! this isn't for me, I don't think I'm going to pursue this." Or I would go to an interview and then sometimes remove myself from the process because I leave the interview just feeling not excited or not, it didn't feel like an improvement from where I was. I mean, this went on for too long. This went on for several years. And I would just kind of tell myself, it was almost like "The devil you know, is better than the devil you don't know." I'm trying to think of what else. I'm top of everything else, I felt like while I was in this job, my mood was kind of, I phrased it like a constant state of blah. I felt...

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:03
A constant state a blah. What is... expand on that for me. What do you would mean by that?

Mike Goodman 05:07
Nothing felt exciting. I didn't have any sort of clue what I wanted to do workwise, I didn't have any sort of excitement in the role I was in. But then I was looking around at other jobs. And I think, "well, you know, what am I qualified for? What is my resume show? Like, what am I gonna find that's any different than what I'm doing?" Because I think like most people, you sometimes feel pigeon holed in that, you know, my resume states, I've done this, but how am I going to show that I can do something different? Or how am I going to translate my experience into showing that I can do something different? I had about an hour commute without traffic so regularly, I did hit traffic. So I mean, it wasn't uncommon for me to have a day where it could take upwards of two to three hours to get home or in the morning, say if the weather was bad or there was an accident, it could take that long to get in. I was in this spiral that was just really, really bad. And I just felt like literally a constant state of blah was the best way to phrase it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:07
That is, I was gonna say super interesting and it probably didn't feel particularly interesting at the time. In fact, they have but it's interesting because so many people get stuck in that state where, you know, you're commuting multiple hours a day and you're, I don't know, gridlocked along traffic and then you are feeling like "hey, I'm not sure even what I want to change to but I know that this isn't it" and you're struggling or trying to push through that all at the same time. And I think that's where a lot of our listeners have been and certainly experienced at least parts of that. So I think everybody knows...

Mike Goodman 06:43

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:44
exactly what you're talking about. Now, what ended up happening from there, you lived in that state of blah for, it sounds like almost five years, right?

Mike Goodman 06:52
Yeah, I mean, pretty much for and some change for, you know, much too long. What happened was, I didn't want to feel that way anymore. I knew if I didn't take control of my situation and make anything change, then another year would go by and I would still be in the same job and I would still be kind of spinning my wheels in terms of "alright, what am I going to do?" So I had been on the East Coast, I'm from the East Coast, and I decided after a long time of thinking about it, the time had come and I was going to move to the West Coast. I approached my boss and told her my plans. I didn't really have a whole in depth plan other than that, but I thought, well, this is going to force me to find something else and get a new start and just kind of kick things off from the right track. So I told my boss and they approached me with an offer to allow me to go to the West Coast, where I could work remotely for a set time period. So it had an end date. And I was very surprised, but I was definitely appreciative and accepted the offer and so I came to the West Coast and still worked remote. And then it was, kind of reality, in a sense hit me because now it's like, "well, now I really have to figure this out. What am I going to do?" I applied for some jobs, didn't really find anything that I was overly excited about. And then time marched by really quickly. And my contract came to an end with the remote work for the job that I had had from the East Coast. And then all of a sudden, I contacted by a recruiter for a job opportunity that was in Florida. I knew the company and I was intrigued. And I thought, "well, I don't have any other options at the moment.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:40
That's right in fornt of you.

Mike Goodman 08:41
Let's check this out." Yeah, the whole process was extremely rushed. Like it was just there was very, there was no real personal connection, you know, so I would talk with a recruiter and they'd set me up for a phone call, say they're hiring manager and then I ended up talking to a total of three people by phone. There is no one person and no typos all by phone. It was very quick. I think in the period of a week, I had the three different conversations. And then I got an offer. The whole process again, like I said, was so rushed, they wanted an answer within 24 hours, you know, it wasn't like, "oh, take a few days and think about it. Let's make sure it's the right fit."

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:19
Bad sign number one.

Mike Goodman 09:20
Like, yes, that's, and my gut already was kind of like, I need time to think about this. But then I didn't have anything else. Florida had never really been a plan or a thought or an interest. But I thought, well, maybe this is just a different way of going on an adventure. And I accepted the offer. I had about three weeks from when I accepted to when I had to be down there to start. And the whole period between, honestly I was just in like a personal hell and I just felt my anxiety was just literally it was through the roof. I was like, "Oh my. I don't know if there's this right. And do I really want to be in Florida? And like, what do I know about this job and am I really prepared for this?" So the year just constantly, there's just a lot of doubt. And I didn't feel, I didn't have an excited feeling if anything, I just... I felt extreme anxiety.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:08
Did you recognize that in the moment? Or was it only afterwards where that was really apparent to you? What was going on at the time?

Mike Goodman 10:17
I knew at the moment I was anxious because I wasn't sleeping well, and I was just kind of like, but I was unsure, but I thought, you know what, it's nerves, and when I get there, it's gonna be better. So I just, I thought, like, see this through and see where it goes. And you know, let allow myself to get there and then just kind of absorb it and things will feel better once I arrive. Normally, that's the case when I have felt uncertain about other things and they've unfolded but unfortunately, this situation, things didn't get better. So I had these three interviews while I was talking with this company. And so three weeks later, when I went down to start, of the three people, one had left the company, one had moved into another role. And then I was going to be working for someone who had just started, who I'd never talked to, it was just, you know, it was like red flag.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:54
It's almost like total worst nightmare come true in some ways because that's one of the reasons that you stay in those types of roles that are blah for so long, it's like, well

Mike Goodman 12:05

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:05
I don't know if this might not be any better it might be way worse.

Mike Goodman 12:07
Exactly. And, you know, looking back at it, the signs were there, that it wasn't gonna be the right fit. But I think because of the fear of not having a job or not having anything lined up, I jumped. But even then, after jumping, I thought, "Oh, you know, I don't know if this was the right choice." So anyway, I went and I was down there, and literally had zero support at the job in terms of, you know, someone asked questions to where resources are in anything. And after, I didn't even make it at the job eight weeks, I made it just maybe six or seven. And I just decided, "you know what, there was a lot more in between" but I just decided, no job is worth this. And this is not a direction that I want to pursue, and I am just gonna cut my losses. And I remember saying to my family down there, I just want to pretend like this never happened. Wipe the slate clean. So I did. I showed up at the office one day and turned in my computer and I just said, "today's my last day" and I left.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:12
What was that like? Because I think so many of us think about doing that, in one way or another. Very few of us have that experience though.

Mike Goodman 13:22
I felt good because I made the decision in my mind, and then being able to go and kind of unload my gear, so to say, so you're like my computer in any sort of their property. I turned it in, I sent a letter. The person who was my boss was really never around. So when I went, I just, you know, submitted a letter and then I went and turned in my computer. And then I stopped in the break room. I grabbed a soda and I walked out, decided this is it. And I felt, you know what, I felt I knew I was going to have challenges ahead, but I knew that I was making the right decision because staying in a job that literally just made me feel ill was not ever gonna do anything right for me. So I needed to figure out what was going to do something right and pursue that rather than staying in, you know, it's like a puzzle piece that didn't fit.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:13
We've used the puzzle analogy more than a few times in our business. But certainly when the puzzle is not fitting in any way whatsoever, and you're, you've already tried hard to make it.

Mike Goodman 14:23
Oh, yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:24
And sometimes it's impossible, and sometimes a change is needed.

Mike Goodman 14:27

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:29
So not everybody has had that experience of quitting a job without something else lined up. I've done that, you've done that and a host of other people have done that. But most of the, that's only a small portion of the world. And this is a question we get on a regular basis. In fact, we recently had a listener that had sent in a question along those lines. In here, I'll read it off really quick. Yeah`, she had said something. Here we go. "HTYC always seems to discourage the idea of quitting a job that is not working before you've accepted an offer and one that feels right. But I'd love to hear an interview with somebody who took an intentional break between jobs without the next thing lined up and I'm increasingly feeling the instinct to take a life sabbatical." And she goes on to say that, "hey, I haven't heard when it's okay to give yourself permission to let go and when it's okay to regroup and when it's not okay. When does it make it a good idea, essentially? When might be a wiser choice for the long run?" That is what I'd love to dig into with you.

Mike Goodman 15:31

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:32
Because reality is your decision might not be right for everyone, but it was certainly right for you. Right?

Mike Goodman 15:39
Yeah, it was what I needed to do. You know, when I left the job that I had been at for several years, you know, I think a lot of people can relate to this too, but between a long commute and days of just total non stimulation and you know, an engagement, I wouldn't feel energized to go home or take a weekend and be like, "I'm gonna figure out what I want to do and like what my next move is gonna be" I would just kind of be, again, like I said, the constant blah, you know, I would just kind of be like, "oh, I'm not there. So I'm gonna enjoy my time, but I'm not going to think about anything because I don't know. And that's what's gonna make me more obsessed." And, but then I got to a point where I just thought, what I can't keep moving forward like this. And if I'm gonna be working until I'm 65 to 70 years old, I don't want to waste my whole life being blah, you know, I don't want to be counting down the weeks and the months and, you know, just waiting, passing... life was just passing me by and I knew if I didn't take a stand and change something, it wasn't going to change. Another year go by and I'd still be at the same job in the same boat feeling the same way. What I did in that sense was, I jumped headfirst into the pool because I just knew all right, I'm doing something but I know if I stay where I am, I will still be here. Like I want nothing will change. The Florida situation was very different because that never fit from the get go. And that just never felt right. I didn't want to be there. I knew at that point, I was fortunate that I had support of family and friends. And I said, you know, I just... I need to take some time, decompress from all this and figure out what is going to be the right fit and what is going to be the right move for me because again, working another 30 to 40 years in a situation that I'm not happy with life. Life is too short, and I don't want to look back at my life and think I had the chance to make a change and I didn't.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:56
I like what you said there. You are looking forward and saying I don't want to ever be in the place where I had that chance to make a change and I didn't. Like...

Mike Goodman 17:46

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:46
Making moves for avoiding regret is probably one of the times where it's actually okay to avoid something. This is super interesting. And there's a couple areas where I'd love to really go into deep. One, I want to make sure that we're leaving everyone with some ideas of when it's okay, when it's a good idea to quit your job? Especially when you don't have something else lined up. And we'll sprinkle those in along the way here too. But I also think that all of us and you and I had this conversation the other day, when we were talking about creating this episode and bringing you on here, what we think it's going to be like, after we quit? And what it's actually like, after we quit?

Mike Goodman 18:27
Are very different.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:28
Yeah, are often very different. And we, we've pretty well proven again and again, that we as human beings are terrible at anticipating the future and what things are actually going to be like in the experience versus what we perceive in advance before it ever comes time. So what I'd love for you to do and I'm super curious, and I can help share some experiences when I quit too without having something else lined up. But what was that like for you? What took place? What did you, what was similar to what you expected? What was far better, far worse?

Mike Goodman 18:57
There were good days and there were bad days. Luckily there were more good because I would, you know, take some time and kind of explore different options, explore opportunities, and then I'd start seeing things. And I'd feel a sense of excitement and hope. And that made me feel better. But then there are days where I felt like nothing's happening, I'm not doing anything, I don't have anything lined up and, you know, feeling almost more of a sense of, I guess, almost despair, I'd say just feeling down. But then when I would have those days, I would think about, specifically the Florida job and the Florida office, and I would think, you know what, this is all going to work out. And I would rather be in this spot now than being back there. And that would make me feel better.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:43
That's really interesting. And I think that's one of the things that people need to consider before they're making a move like this and leaving a role, blah or not, in really understanding the full impact or at least attempting to understand the full impact.

Mike Goodman 20:00

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:01
What is driving this in the first place? What are some of the real impacts too? In your case, like that Florida role was having real physical impacts on you. It's cause anxiety and it was making your life a little...

Mike Goodman 20:14
I was a mess, for lack of a better word. I was an absolute mess. And I just knew I'm like, I did not leave the last role to come to something even worse. And I was like, I know there's something better out there. Looking back in hindsight, like if I always ever put in that situation again, where I felt rushed and I wasn't sure that it was the right move or the right opportunity, I wouldn't do it. And you know, it was a definitely a learning experience. And I think it came at a time when I needed the lesson. But again, I would never put myself in a situation like that again, because no job or anything that makes you feel ill or just sick or just, you know, just does not make you feel good is worth it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:54
Yeah, and that's what I had for my first professional job experience straight out of college. That same feeling also the same commute, whereas multiple hours in the car and you're looking at the people next to you, and they don't look that happy either. And then you're thinking the entire time like, I don't even like this job like, why am I...

Mike Goodman 21:12
What am I doing?

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:13
What am I doing? Like.

Mike Goodman 21:14

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:15
So totally understand on that. What I think people experience though, is they experienced either what you experienced where it's like, "hey, this is completely blah. And I know that if I don't do something, then I'm going to be here for a long period of time." The other side of it is I think what I experienced too where I got myself into a situation where it was like, "look, anything has to be better than this." Anything has to be better than this. And this a little bit of a case of distorted grass is greener and thinking that "hey, any situation will absolutely be better." It became a situation of me wanting to leave just because I wanted to get the heck out of this situation. So that's the number one thing I would tell people to consider is, what's driving this decision in the first place? And...

Mike Goodman 22:03

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:04
Specifically, are you running to something versus running away from something? And if you're just purely running away from something, that's going to make a bad decision, like in my case, I was running away from something. Had I left when I first wanted to, I would have 100% been running away from something. And in your case, I would say that, that actually wasn't true, which I think is part of the reason why it made it better for you.

Mike Goodman 22:29
The Florida situation I needed to leave the first situation was something that had, you know, I think that had been on my mind for far before from when I actually did do it. And I think, sometimes I try and talk myself into staying say for example, Christmas, we would get a really nice vacation and the gift, and then, you know, so then the fall would come and I think well, you know, the Christmas vacation is really nice. So I'm not going to leave now. And then it got to a point where the things that I stayed for, or that I would talk myself into staying for, we're no longer enough, like, you know, as, what's a two week vacation? Yeah, it was great. But what if the other 50 weeks of the year are not good, then it doesn't really make a whole lot of sense to stick around for the two weeks off. It just got to a point where the reasons I stayed just diminished, you know, less and less. And I just knew that, it was time, I needed to go, it was past time. And it wasn't a quick decision, it was something I really thought, I thought about for a long time, but then I knew I'm ready. It's time, I need to go.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:37
That kind of invoke the second thing that we really have people take a look at, as well, is what's going to be required, you know, asking yourself this question, what is going to be required to make a substantial life change? Because for some people, some people really can do this over time. And that's something that I've done at different points in time in my life, even starting this business like, you know, we started it on the side and did it from 4am to 7am, every single morning, and that was... that worked well. But then I think that there's other periods of time and other people that doesn't make sense for them, that doesn't make sense for them because they either can't put enough focus in making the life change, or it doesn't make sense for them because of any number of other reasons, too. And I think in your case, you've said multiple times in the last 25 minutes here that you had to have that break. You had to have that.

Mike Goodman 24:30
I did. Yeah, I needed that time. I was fortunate that I was able to take it, but I definitely needed it because, you know, and all those years of commuting, and then just like I had mentioned being really disengaged, I didn't take when I say I had a week off. I wasn't spending the time doing the work in terms of like really digging and searching to figure out, what is it that I want to be doing? What do I want my life to look like? Because in a week, I was just more or less decompressing from being out of office and I wasn't taking on anything of that nature. When I had that time, in between jobs, it was like, well, now I have this time I can really figure out what is my next move gonna be. And what do I want that to look like. Because for so long, that wasn't something that I had thought about.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:19
Yeah. And that makes a ton of sense. And for you too, from what I know about your situation and everything that we've talked about, you had the runway, and that's where we get into question number three here. Do you have the runway in terms of financial or other to be able to make this a real possibility? Or is it going to be a case where you might have to make a couple of jobs like make a shift from one job to another even though that's not necessarily the perfect job or one job to another that's going to free up your time or headspace or something else so that you can create a different level of focus. But in your case, you had a bit of savings, right? You've done...

Mike Goodman 25:55
I did. I was fortunate that I was able to take that time.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:58
What did you do to put yourself in that place?

Mike Goodman 26:01
Over the last several years that I was in the job before I left, I had gotten some, you know, annual increases, and there was a period where I had gotten a promotion. So what I would do is every year, I would just put away the difference. So I was essentially living off my original salary. Over the years, I'd put, you know, a decent amount of money away for like a rainy day fund, so to say, or, you know, a couple months of living expenses. And then I was fortunate during my gap where I wasn't working, that I had supportive family, so that I was able to have, you know, a place to stay, whereas, you know, that helps tied my savings along that much longer.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:41
Lower living experiences for a period of time.

Mike Goodman 26:44

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:45
Very cool.

Mike Goodman 26:45

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:46
That's the question that everybody needs to ask themselves when they're considering leaving, not to something else. As one, do you have that financial runway, we're through savings or other income coming in or something else? And then usually when I'm working with people one on one, we're figuring out okay, what is the likelihood of you being able to move into something else in addition to, what it's actually going to take? And always budget worst case scenario. I think everybody has a tendency to look at, well, I think it's gonna be, you know, three months, and I can get a job in three months, no problem. And we're overly optimistic in a lot of those cases versus

Mike Goodman 27:23

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:24
It might realistically take a long period of time. How long did it take you?

Mike Goodman 27:27
It was over six months. Maybe more like eight months. It took a while. It did happened. I allowed myself a little period where I just took some time in the beginning. And then I thought all right, I'm gonna jump in now. So I took, you know, the first, it was a month or two off to just kind of resettle and decompress. And then probably then from when I started, you know, really doing the work about six months and that was, you know, the holiday time things tend to slow down and some interview processes can take quite a while you know, from start to finish. You have to allow that time because there's just no way of knowing how long it's going to take.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:04
Yeah. And generally, we'll have people budget whatever time they need away. Like in your case, you said, look, I need this month, month and a half, two months time to be able to decompress. And that's 100% okay, like what Laura is asking in her question, you know, if she needs that deep and refresh in time, that's great. And then additionally, she should allow a minimum of six months just in case, because although we've helped a lot of people, make 30 day transitions, that's not the norm. That is the optimistic side. Yes, it can be done but you do not want to be in a situation. I've personally been in a situation where it's taken much longer than what I anticipated. And is Uber stressful, especially if you're in a situation where you have either a family or spouse or other things like that. That's not just stressful for you, but it's stressful for them as well. You know, that actually happened, geez, probably like eight or so years ago to me too, when I was transitioning from a job, I felt like I couldn't take it anymore and ended up leaving. We had savings, was able to get job offers, I already had number of interviews in the works at the point in time and I left and everything like that. So it wasn't like just leaving completely clean. But there was more to the story too, because even though we had some savings, even though we had about, you know, six plus months savings easily, even though those other things are in place, it's still in hindsight, I don't know was the right decision based on everything else we had going on. We were trying to pay down a bunch of debt not ended up putting that on hold. And then for Alyssa, my wife, was really stressful for her too because she has all these people that are asking her really every time they turn around, like "hey, this guy have a job yet" everything else along those lines, too.

Mike Goodman 29:45
Is very stressful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:46

Mike Goodman 29:46
And I think going along with it, you have to be prepared and be willing to give up a certain degree of control, because you can control what you put into the situation in your efforts. But you can't necessarily control the outcome or you really can't can control how long it's going to take.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:01
You can have a lot of influence it but ultimately you don't get to decide whether that person is on vacation and whether you get the job offer in writing this week or three weeks from now.

Mike Goodman 30:10

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:11
And sometimes those things just don't line up perfectly. So if you've only got three months of money in the bank, and you're dependent upon that happening, and that your spouse is looking at you going, "hey, you've promised it would be okay" then that's not going to create a great situation for you. So that ends up being the fourth question that we would advise everybody to ask. Who else has a vested interest in this decision? And are they okay with it? Are they on board? And do they understand all these implications, too?

Mike Goodman 30:38
Yeah, having that support can make all the difference.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:40
Yeah, absolutely. I'm gonna really quick just run through those questions again, here for anybody that is finding themselves in this place where they're considering, like you were, is this something I just need to do? Is this something that I should do? Is this actually a good idea for me in my situation? So ask yourself number one, do you have the that runway? Do you have that savings? Or do you have more liabilities and you're going to be able to afford at the time? You know, number two, why is it that you want to leave in the first place? What is driving this decision? Is it 100% emotion thinking that is going to be better? Or is it something that you're able to run to versus running away from something? And if it's purely running away from something, probably not a great idea. And then question number three, who else has a vested interest in this decision? And are they 100% on board or at least enough on board and committed to making the same decision? Then last question is for you personally, what do you need in terms of breakthroughs to make this substantial life change? Because it is a substantial life change. And I don't want people to underestimate that. Anything that you would add to that mix for people to consider, you know, having you done this yourself in a couple of capacities.

Mike Goodman 31:55
Think it through and be prepared. I think, you know, having that support like I just said, is really is important. And just looking at it from different ways, like if it's, are you okay with it? If it's not going to happen for six months, if it's gonna take longer, worst case scenario, are you okay with still making that decision? Just way look at the different sides and weigh the outcomes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:16
That is phenomenal advice. And then the cool thing is, even if you decide it's not a good idea, then I think that there's plenty of other alternatives, you can work on getting what we call a bridge job, which might not be the perfect job, but it might be something that is vastly improved. And either maybe it's not the state of blah, and you're get into use more of your skill sets and what you enjoy, but maybe it's not the perfect thing, if you will. Or maybe it's a case where it's freeing up more of your headspace or more of your time, so that you can devote some time or headspace or bandwidth, like you were talking about earlier, Mike to figuring out what is going to be a great situation for you.

Mike Goodman 32:55
Exactly. Yeah. What does that look like? Figuring out, what's the right move or what's the next move gonna be? And what's gonna make it better

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:02
Any advice on that figuring it out process because I know that you've gone through that at some point you began working with us and that's how we actually met the first time, right. And that's how I got to learn your strengths and learn what you're great at. And ultimately, at some point, we invited you onto the team after an extensive interview process and having that firsthand relationship. And now you do a phenomenal job because, well, quite frankly, we, you know, we like to practice what we preach and put people in areas where they kick ass.

Mike Goodman 33:33
Thank you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:33
Yeah. And you know, we absolutely see it every single day and we get, oh my goodness, just in the short time that you've been with us, I'm trying to think how many emails I've gotten from our audience and customers telling me how awesome Mike is.

Mike Goodman 33:48
Nice. That's awesome. That's great to hear.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:50
Yeah, absolutely. But as people are going through that figure it out type process, any other advice that you'd give to them once they have decided "hey, look, I need to quit, it is the right decision for me. And I'm going to use part of that time to determine what is next. And what's going to be a great situation for me.

Mike Goodman 34:08
Allow yourself the time to don't jump into a situation just because it comes up, you know, don't... learn from my mistake. Don't jump into something just because it's there, make sure it's the right move. Because if you've made the decision to leave where you were to find something better, see it through, don't jump into something, you know, a lateral move or the frying pan into the fire, for lack of a better word, just take the time and discover what it is that is going to make you happy and seek it out. Because it is out there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:39
Something Mike and I didn't say in our interview, is that after we finished working together, Mike ended up taking a role at Avocado Green, and then turning that opportunity and promotion. He did a really phenomenal job with this. And I want to let you know we've got so much more coming up in store for you next week, right here on Happen To Your Career. But also, if you're looking for help in figuring out your next career move, then tell you what, just stop this pause it and text, My Coach, that's M-Y Coach to 44222. And we'll send you the link to tell us a little bit more about your situation and schedule a call with our team. And when you do that, we'll ask you a bunch of questions and really try and understand your situation and figure out the very best way that we can help you through whatever your goals are. It's no obligation, and it's been one of the best first steps for so many people, many that you've heard on Happen To Your Career again and again. So just text My Coach to 44222. On the very next episode of Happen To Your Career, if you're looking for help figuring out what you really want, well, we're going to answer a few questions like, "how to find what you love to do again? If you strayed away from it" "how to identify true strengths and values, that lead to your ideal role?" And, "how to prepare yourself to finally make the jump?" And also, what kinds of jobs or positions or roles, a project manager can move into?" We've taken all these questions live from our listeners, and we've answered them. We're gonna share that with you on the very next episode, this Thursday. Talk to you then, until then. I'm out. Adios.

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