Sandra Cloud 00:01

He granted me severance when they really don't do that. And it was because I asked. But I really needed support to ask for that because it was obviously such an uncomfortable thing for me to do.

Introduction 00:19

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:44

Severance packages often aren't something that people give much thought. Actually, it's something most people try not to think about. It sounds like a terrible thing. You're either on the wrong end of a layoff or you're needing to leave a job, usually a pretty stressful time, right? But there's an entirely different way to think about severance. And if you understand the power of asking for severance, particularly at the right time, you can use it as a tool to assist in your intentional career change. Now, I'm not here to tell you that asking for severance is easy. It's not always even the right thing to do. It's not. However, receiving a severance package is not impossible. In fact, people actually do successfully ask for severance at all different types of organizations, even in industries where severance is practically unheard of. It requires a completely different level of thinking and expertise. By the way, this is an advanced level maneuver, and today we're gonna dive into this bold strategy and show you how asking for severance can not only benefit you, but also benefit the organization that you're leaving as well. And we're gonna show you some examples for how you can do this from Sandra's story, who you may have heard on the podcast back in episode 589. However, we cut this chapter out of her story at the time because we realized we needed to dedicate an entire episode to it. Because Sandra did what so many people claim is impossible. She negotiated a severance package in a field where it's pretty much unheard of. So let's discuss how you can make the impossible possible in your own career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:23

Before we dive into Sandra's story, we're going to cover the specifics here and her unconventional approach to severance. I want to take a step back and talk about why this even matters here. And, let me paint you a picture. You know it's time to leave your role, maybe it's draining you, maybe you're just bored, or your priorities outside of work are shifting, whatever it is, you may have outgrown it, you know you need to quit. By the way, if you're not quite there yet, trying to figure out if you should quit or not, we have an episode dedicated to that part of the process. That's episode 509. I'll link it up in the show notes, the description right on your podcast player. But once you have decided you need to quit, that's when things get really interesting. Because when it comes to how you quit, you actually have options, which a lot of people don't consider. One of those options is negotiating the severance package. And when we talk about negotiating severance, it's easy to think about finances, but when you're asking with the purpose of making a more intentional career change, it's about a lot more. Severance can help you create space, both financially and mentally, so you can work on figuring out what your next step should be, what type of work truly fits you, and then transition into that next chapter with ease. It's not for everybody, but it can be a career change strategy that can give you financial runway to support your transition, breathing room to recover from burnout, mental space to focus on what's next, time and bandwidth to explore or experiment with more fulfilling career paths. Negotiating your exit can transform what feels like an overwhelming leap into strategic, intentional steps towards your future. Okay, so instead of just putting in your notice, what if, instead, you could use this transition to set yourself up for success in your next career move. But not only that, what if you could come up with a plan that makes your exit a great situation for the organization and allows you to walk away with setting them up for success, as well as a severance package. Okay, this is where we cover why severance doesn't have to be selfish. I mean, it certainly can be, but it doesn't have to be, and I don't think it should be, quite honestly, I think it should be a great deal for all parties involved. You might be wondering, okay, well, how could asking for severance ever be good for the organization? And it sounds kind of self-serving on the surface, but when done thoughtfully, it can be mutually beneficial. Now I'm going to ask for you to think about severance as a service rather than just a payment. It turns out that in many situations, paying a severance can actually be a great way to support the team and organization that you're leaving behind. So here's a few examples of how severance can benefit you in the organization. It could be part of the deal that you're working ahead. You could use your remaining time to complete projects, wrap up loose ends, anticipate what's coming in the future, work on those upcoming projects with severance tied to hitting specific milestones. It could mean helping with a handoff like training and onboarding your replacement to make the transition smoother for everyone involved, and set your entire team up for success. How would that be, right? It could mean avoiding costly disruptions. Sometimes by staying a little longer, you can help the organization avoid big headaches like handling tax reporting or wrapping up quarters in tasks. In those cases, paying severance could actually save them time and money. It becomes an investment. Very cool, right? What about leveraging retirement benefits? If you're close to retirement, negotiating severance that includes retirement benefits or continues to retirement benefits, could actually help the organization maintain stability during the transition, or it might allow them, you know, to close out some of their past retirement packages if they've made changes during the time that you have been there at the organization. This is all very situational dependent. That's why this is an advanced maneuver. But I want to give you an example here. I actually had a family member negotiate six months of severance by staying on just long enough to train her... find and train her replacement, and this gave the organization the time that it needed to be able to stay on track through the hiring and onboarding. And by staying to transfer this knowledge and wrap up her responsibilities, she created value for both herself and all the people that she worked with. Pretty cool, right? The company agreed that six months of severance was a much better deal than risking costly mistakes. And to be clear, in this situation, this was six months of severance beyond the additional claim that she stayed. So, a great deal for her, a great deal for everybody who was impacted in the organization. But let's talk about Sandra's case. Because if you did listen to episode 589, with Sandra, you might be thinking, "Okay, all that sounds great, but it wouldn't work for me. My situation is different." That's what we tend to think as humans. This is a form of psychological bias, and it protects your ego, and it's really wonderful at certain times, it also tends to hold us back. So I've heard this countless times since we've been doing this since, I don't know, when did we start–2012 and 2013 is the business. And there's always resistance to the idea of negotiating severance. People think it's impossible in their situation, their industry or asking would actually burn bridges. Maybe that's true, but what if you knew how to do it so you could be the exception? Well, that's exactly what Sandra did. And to be really clear, I'm not sure that I would recommend this advanced level maneuver, going alone without taking a partner that has expertise in these areas. And that is what Sandra did. Sandra worked in education where severance packages are practically unheard of, people can get easily offended, and she could have quietly put in her notice and walked away, that's a thing that could have happened. Instead, she decided to push through the discomfort, create a plan that would help her organization and then ask for what she needed. Now, Sandra framed her severance request as a solution to her problem, particularly her departure through a critical time that could have created disruption. So it's her problem because she felt attachment to this organization, she put a lot of time and effort the school, in fact, that she put a lot of time and effort into getting it to the point that it was at, and also it's a problem for all the people that she was leaving behind. And instead of just leaving, she agreed to stay on for a brief period and wrap up loose ends and actually be able to work ahead to set that organization up, this school in education, for the entire... basically about a year ahead, almost. With support, she built a plan to approach her boss, navigate a tough conversation, and ended up successfully negotiating the financial runway she needed to transition to her next steps. What we've done here is we've broken down Sandra's strategy into five key considerations that you can use to tackle your severance negotiation.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:54

Okay, let's dive into how she made the impossible possible. Number one, let's talk about assessing your relationship with your boss. This is a big deal. Reflect on past difficult conversations with your boss. Have you asked for other things in the past? How did that go? Approach the severance conversation with care and, of course, strategic planning. We're not wanting to burn bridges here, so instead, this is the part where you're likely to need support and likely to need outside perspective to assess. Is this very likely to work in your situation? Do you have the level of relationship? If you feel like you have a great relationship with your boss, that's a good sign to be able to consider next steps. If you've had past conversations that have gone particularly well, difficult conversations for your boss and for you, then that's a sign that you may be able to go forward here. In any case, I want you to get an outside perspective in order to understand is this a possibility, in addition to these road signs that I'm giving you here. Okay, by the way, we have an episode all about how to navigate relationships when you're leaving a job, it's called, Build Bridges: Don't Burn Them. How to Leave a Job on Good Terms. It's episode 551, we'll put all the mentions and references here inside the show notes, so you can just go in and click on it and listen to it if it's relevant for you. But this is step one is, assess do you have the potential relationship in order to make this possible for you? Most people, this is a fun thing that we found. Most people that are taking the time that care about developing themselves care legitimately for other people, they typically build those relationships naturally without even realizing it. So most people that are listening right now, if you're listening right now, chances are high you might already have that type of relationship in place without even knowing it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:55

Okay. Number two, I want you to go into this having an understanding of what your company's past practices. Could be policies, but usually we're interested in past practices for severance because the policy made different from the past practice in one way or another. Often, organizational policies are written for what is going to meet legal criteria or prevent additional risk. However, what is done behind the scenes could be completely different than what are those upfront policies. This is something I've seen over and over again. It is something that many people don't quite understand how that can work behind the scene unless they've delved into risk assessment from a legal perspective, or sometimes, if they've worked in HR or gotten to see behind the scenes how that works, maybe they've been in, I don't know, maybe you've been in a high executive level where you've seen this thing happen and taken in HR or a legal partner in order to do it over and over again. You'd be surprised how many organizations offer severance outside of the usual policies. If the situation warrants it, I would encourage you to speak to former colleagues or even people who have left the organization, so you can find out how it's been handled, and be able to collect some information in one way or another. And by the way, in the past, I worked in HR leadership, for a variety of different companies, who only did severance in certain situations on the norm, or, you know, in front facing policies. However, being on the HR team, there were so many specific situations where we went outside policy to provide severance. And I'll just give you a quick example. One of them in particular was somebody who was a former high performer in the organization, had a wonderful track record, been there for many years, and in his case, his performance started to dip significantly. It was no longer a great fit for the organization, but had this wealth of knowledge, and had all these balls in the air in the form of different projects and other things along those lines. So it was definitely time for him to go. It was no longer going to be a great fit for the organization in the future. But also needed to make sure that all of these balls weren't dropped and they were handed off and set up accordingly. So worked with him over a period of a couple of weeks to be able to wrap up, negotiate severance, and send him on his way and so that we could bring in a new person who would be a better fit, and he could get to a place that was going to be a better fit for him, quite frankly, and it ended up being a wonderful deal for everybody. I think in that particular case, I think that it was a pretty small amount of severance. I think it was like two months or 10 weeks or something along those lines, not a massive amount, either way, nothing in our policies saying that that's a normal thing that we would do. But it created this soft landing for him, and it avoided all of the normal performance types of processes in many different ways, was really truly the right thing to do in this person's case and for the rest of the team too. Point here, I want to make sure you have a good grasp on your company's history and policies. Also want to make sure that this gets integrated into your strategy as you're building it to be able to explain why this is a reasonable request, beyond reasonable, why it's actually a great thing for you and the rest of the organization.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:34

Okay, this is where we move into building your negotiation plan. What do you need for a smooth transition? What's your ideal package? I want you to consider factors like severance pay, health insurance, PTO, what are you able to offer? What value are you able to create as you exit? Sometimes, it might be you vacating the spot, like in the example I just gave, like that truly was a value for the organization. We needed to vacate that spot and get somebody else in there that was going to be a great fit, and do that quick so that could be value on itself. But other types of value can you hire and train and find a replacement? Are there projects that are going to be incredibly high value for you to focus on? Are there things that you can work ahead on? We've given all of those examples here, those are great places to start. Or is there a reason why for staying on for a certain time frame that would benefit your company? Like, if you were an accountant, particularly like a tax accountant, they might not like you to stay on through tax season. Or a teacher, they might appreciate it if you could finish the semester out. In any case, make sure you figure out your needs before the conversation, so that you know what you want and what you can ask for. And usually if you listen to any of our advice on negotiation, of any kind, we want to develop a negotiation plan. The most basic pieces of a negotiation plan here going into it are understanding what your minimums are that you'll accept in a variety of different areas and your ideals or targets that you would love to receive or end up with. You don't have to share that minimum with your boss or whoever you're negotiating with, but it's important for you to know and you understand so that you don't accidentally or unintentionally accept below that minimum. Sandra, for example, asked for twice what she needed that she asked for much closer to her ideal target, because she knew her boss well, and she knew asking for double would likely land her with what she actually required to be able to leave. So here she is talking about how she came up with her negotiation plan.

Sandra Cloud 17:45

So, actually, when I first talked to my director about leaving, there's a thing in schools that apparently I was not as right about that as I thought that I was. But one of the things that you try not to do is leave mid year, mid academic year. That can be pretty hard on a school to try to scramble and figure it, figure that out. So I was really determined to make it through June, if I could of this year. And so my original intent was to ask him to figure out either some type of sabbatical or me working from home on Tuesday, Thursdays when I wasn't teaching, some way that I could still do, you know. So open enrollment for the school was in March, and that's a pretty busy time for marketing, so I didn't want to leave them in alert on that end. And so that was my original ask. And he actually said, "Well, why don't you leave in December? You know, it sounds like, health wise, that might be a better plan for you. It also sounds, you know, we have a beautiful Christmas party every year on the last day of school before Christmas break and you could winter break so you could go to the party and say goodbye to everybody, and that could be it. And I was a little resistant. And he said, "Well, what's your resistance?" And I said, "Well, all these things, I don't want to leave you in the lurch." He said, "Well, I think if we have you just focus on getting the marketing things in place then, you know," because that's also the end of our, we do spring term and fall term, so that was the end of the term. So he just wouldn't schedule me to teach any classes in the spring. So I noodled on that, and that's when I thought, you know, Oregon, getting a job in Oregon in January is not an awesome perspective. I just couldn't figure that out. I hadn't yet thought about tapping into my retirement account, and so it made me really nervous, and so I was just honest with him and said, "I can't imagine trying to get a job in January. Is there any way that you can do severance pay?" And I went through that terribly uncomfortable conversation. And after I talked with Ben, it was really good to have somebody to just to bounce ideas off of and brace myself with. So when I had that conversation with him, I've watched him negotiate before, and he likes to negotiate. And so I knew if I was... My tendency is just to say, "this is actually what I need." But I just had this feeling that I needed to ask for double what I wanted, which was at least two months salary. And basing, you know, if you look at businesses, they do a lot more in severance than two months. Education is not known for paying any severance at all. So he talked with the powers that be on his end, and they ended up granting me a consultant fee for my January paycheck, basically, and then had me continue on payroll as the marketing person, even though I got all the marketing done by December 15th. So everything was ready, everything was shared out, all the things that I take care of, I'd mapped out. And it's amazing, you know, I'd been so tired for so many years that I'd never gotten to the marketing really much before the first of December, and it carried through always until open enrollment in March. But somehow, having the clarity of what my next was, my activator and my strategy kicked in, I got everything done so early, so much earlier than I'd done for years, which felt really good to have all that time. So yeah, he granted me severance when they really don't do that. And it was because I asked, but I really needed support to ask for that, because it was obviously such an uncomfortable thing for me to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:21

I heard you say, "I was really proud of myself because I went and did it anyways", even though it was insert all the emotions here, like, scary, uncomfortable, anxious, like, all the things, right? And you did it anyway.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:42

To make the conversation go as smooth as possible, I want you to build a plan to maneuver through the conversation that you feel good about. This includes points you want to be sure to hit on, and that takes us to our next step, which becomes practice the conversation. By the way, a lot of people skip this step and then they realize it too late. When you're face to face with your boss and you can't think of how to approach it or what to say first, or you didn't prepare for something to go awry, I don't want you to skip this step. There are at this point, many different studies that if you do simple run throughs, simple practice in a variety of different ways, then that's going to increase your confidence going into this. So that might be a mock conversation with a partner. That's a lot of times what we'll do here with our clients. It might be charting out and having you record a run through of what you're going to say, so you can see yourself on video. That feels painful for people, but it makes a huge difference having gone through it and understanding how it's going to come off. Any case, you have to be able to have practiced it in one way or another that's going to change how the actual conversation goes. And also have a plan for how you're going to handle potential pushback. Having this rehearsed plan gives you the confidence to tackle the conversation that will likely feel uncomfortable at first. Okay, this last step is gonna sound ridiculous, but it is making the ask, having the courage to ask, in fact. You might think this goes without saying, obviously, but it's the hardest one, so we need to talk about it. You've done all this work to prepare, it's time to do the asking. You're probably going to be feeling so many emotions– could be scared, could be uncomfortable, anxious, all the things. Maybe you don't feel ready, often at that point, your brain will talk you out of it, or at least attempt to, you're never likely going to feel absolutely 100% ready. Why? Well, the one thing I've learned after working with thousands of people in all different types of negotiation, is that courage usually precedes confidence. Meaning, you don't need to feel fully confident to take the first step. Courage will help get the ball rolling, and then confidence will follow after you've done the thing. It's backwards, and it kind of sucks in the moment. But it's the truth. I promise the confidence will appear when you've just about given up hope. Sandra's story shows that the simple act of asking can be a huge leap toward creating the life and career that you want, even when it feels scary, just asking can create the space for opportunity to materialize. By the way, here's Sandra and I discussing exactly how it felt for her.

Sandra Cloud 24:33

One of the things that had happened was I said, "Ben, do you think I should ask for severance?" And he said, "Yes, you should ask for severance." So he helped me come up with the way I was going to ask. And I got to tell you, Scott, I am a fairly confident person. My boss and I have a friendship, as well as a mentorship, as well as he's my boss, like very multifaceted. I squirmed. I turned beat red. I brought out in sweat. I couldn't look directly at him. I had to look in my lap to get through this conversation to ask for severance. So I was really proud of myself for doing that. And I asked for twice what I needed, knowing how he tends to operate. So he gave me half of what I asked for, which was actually what I needed. And then I realized, I could tap into my retirement. I could just take some time and heal up. And so I did that. So now my slate is clear, like, I have no commitments, and I can start resting and trusting myself and listening to what my body seems to want.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:39

Okay, you've heard Sandra's experience. Let's quickly cover those steps again that you should take to prepare for your own exit package conversation. I want you to assess your relationship with your boss, do your research, outline your negotiation plan or your ideal package, as well as your minimums, I want you to practice the conversation. And then, of course, the ask itself. And those are the steps when we really break it down. Next time you find yourself thinking something like, "That is just not possible in my situation." Or, "that could never work for me." Whether it's doing work you love, getting paid a certain salary, taking a month off to travel, which I've done numerous times, it's definitely worth it, by the way. We're asking for severance. I want you to think about not my situation, but Sandra's situation, or the other stories that you've heard here on the podcast. All of the stories that we tend to share are people who, at one point in time, thought it was impossible for them. But what if you could be the exception? Maybe it's impossible for some people, mostly because they won't move forward. But the biggest thing allowing you to be the exception is thinking about, "Why not you? Why not?" It's going to be somebody. Why not you? Don't wait for the perfect moment, make the choice now that your future self will thank you for. By the way, whether that's asking for severance or making a career change or leadership coaching, or anything else that is in your career that's a challenge or problem or aspiration, those are the things that we help with. We would love to be able to support you. Feel free to pick up your phone, go into your email right now. Email me directly, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. I'll connect you with somebody on my team. We'll figure out the very best way that we can support you. That's Scott@happentoyourcareer.com put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And again, all the resources that we mentioned, you can find it in the description in the show notes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:35

And here's the sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 27:41

If you get to a job that uses your strengths and you're passionate about, that's like, then you can't go back. You're like, "Oh, this is what this feels like to work in an environment where I really enjoy it."

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:55

When it comes to making a career change, most people jump straight to the tactical stuff– your resumes, your job searching, interview skills. But if you're looking to make what we call an intentional career change, the real work starts internally. Self-awareness has to be the foundation. You must deeply understand your strengths, values, what energizes you, so you can align your next role with who you truly are. And one of the most effective ways to fast track this process is by discovering and leveraging your top strengths.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:24

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it, and if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player, so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week, until next week. Adios, I'm out.

Steph Strine 00:01

I have a lot of friends that have pivoted out of corporate jobs, and they now do yoga retreats where they do instructing full time, and I see these actual physical examples of people doing what I wanted to do, and I'm like, "Oh, I can't do that."

Introduction 00:19

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:44

We all have a place where we feel comfortable and natural in our actions, where we're excited about life and happy to be ourselves. But what if you could feel like that all the time, even when you're working? I've heard people say, "I feel like I have to be a different person at work", or "I feel like I'm living two different lives." Many times throughout my years working in HR operations and interacting with clients at HTYC, I've heard this over and over again. Well, it turns out work doesn't have to be this way. To thrive at work, you must first figure out where you feel most like yourself and where you can be more of who you want to become.

Steph Strine 01:27

I just had this overwhelming sense in my body. I was like, "I am not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Like, I need to go do this now, even if I don't know what it looks like."

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:37

That's Steph Strine. Steph had known for almost nine years that she felt most alive and most like herself in fitness studios, but had never allowed herself to believe that she could actually build a career in fitness. Steph is a former Marine Corps Officer, and when she got out of the service, she was hired with Amazon, where she quickly moved up the ranks. And as you can imagine, her life had always been very structured, so it took a lot for her to step off the traditional career path and go after what she truly wanted. Okay, so you're gonna hear my conversation with Steph, and I want you to pay attention to how she articulates her realization that she could make a living doing what she most loves, and how she completely upended her life, or at least, you know, felt like upending it to go after that exact thing that she wants. Steph's story is inspiring, not only because she got outside her comfort zone and broke the mold on what her life had always been, but now that she knows she's on the right track, she's continuing to blaze a path toward what we call her unicorn role, those roles that you didn't think were possible, or, you know, thought might be mythical. Here's Steph talking about her initial effort to carve her own path by joining the Navy.

Steph Strine 03:00

I grew up in Cornwall, New York, which is in the Hudson Valley area, so it's about north of New York City, and I went to the Naval Academy. I have a very big military family. Both my parents went to West Point, and so I shocked everyone when I went to the Naval Academy. But yeah, I really am grateful for the experience that I had. I was an active duty marine for about seven and a half years, and then transitioned out and did operations at Amazon for my first almost two years out of the military. But a lot of my focus in my career has always been about people. I was an administrative officer, so I did a lot of the behind the scenes stuff that, you know, to get the Marines out the door, the stuff that would keep them up at night if they didn't get their paycheck, and stuff like that. So my focus has really always been on people, and then to kind of couple that with, I played soccer growing up, like since I was five, I was playing competitive soccer, and so I was always like, on the go, and I played soccer at the Naval Academy, and fitness was always like a passion of mine, but I never really thought that I could do anything with it. So a little bit more of that later, but.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:10

Yeah, and I really want to dig into that because fitness has not always been there as a theme for you, it seems like, but now it's a much more central theme, and we'll talk about how you transition into that in a little bit. But I'm really curious what made you, aside from you having a military family and everything, what made you decide to go into the Naval Academy?

Steph Strine 04:35

I made a list. I'm very organized, and I like a set of like structures. So the military for me, was something that was very familiar. But why the Naval Academy? Definitely the soccer piece. Like at the time, that soccer team was performing super well. I really resonated with the team when I went and visited and hung out with the girls on the team, and then I made a list, like, growing up of what I was looking for in college and Annapolis actually hit more than West Point, and my mom still works at West Point too. So I was like, "I just kind of want to do my own thing." And so that was kind of the why behind I would say, like, soccer first. And then it was, I wanted to carve my own path, which I can see now is like, very, very a theme that's woven throughout a lot of my career story.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:22

I could see that. What did your family think when you first told them, "you know, I'm thinking Annapolis."

Steph Strine 05:27

So, yeah. It was blasted in like the newspapers where I grew up. It was like, "Strine picks navy, not army." So my mom was devastated, to say the least, but she got over it. She has like, more Navy apparel than I do now. But, you know, I mean, they're excited. I mean, at the end of the day, like, it was a great school and yeah. So, I mean, would they have loved to have another West Point graduate, sure, but there's plenty of my family, and so I'm happily go Navy, not the other side. So...

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:56

That's amazing. And it sounded like that really was a better fit for you.

Steph Strine 06:03

Yeah. I was talking about this the other day with a friend, and I used to be like, and it still kind of trickles in, but like, people pleasing. And I think the easier choice would have been to, like, go to West Point and just follow in my parents footsteps, but I just knew that it was the right choice for me. And, yeah, I couldn't imagine life any different. I wouldn't have been able to be a Marine Corps, or it would have been a little bit more challenging, too, at West Point, you know, it wouldn't have unfolded the way that it did.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:30

When, well, I heard you say just a few minutes ago that you were in for about seven and a half years or so. What caused you to realize it was time to go, time to make...?

Steph Strine 06:43

Yeah, a couple things along this period of years that I was in the Marine Corps. I had gotten sober, and I had something that happened personally to me that I wouldn't be able to stay in the active duty any longer. So that was one thing. And then after I finished rehab, I kind of just had a new perspective on life, like most things, when you do something incredibly crazy like that, and flip your entire life around. And so I knew it was time because I wasn't, like, I wasn't invested in what we were doing, and that's also been a theme in my story, is like, I just knew that there was people that were more passionate about it, and they were going to charge the next wave of whatever the Marine Corps was to develop into, and it wasn't my time anymore, and I knew that it would also be unserving to me to stay in an environment that I knew I couldn't grow in because of the things that had led me up to getting sober. And like, I'm not ashamed of it at all. Life happened. And for me, it's happened in a very amazing, beautiful way. But I just also knew that there's life outside of the military as well. And if I can stay sober, then I can do anything.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:54

How has going through that type of experience and then going through rehab, how has that changed your perspective on life?

Steph Strine 08:03

It was very humbling. I mean, as someone that, like I mentioned, is very list oriented, and like, that was not on my list whatsoever.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:10

Nowhere on the list.

Steph Strine 08:12

It was not on there at all. And so it was very unexpected. I think the biggest thing that I learned was, like, life is very precious. I'm very fortunate to, like, kind of be alive today, and I have a lot of friends that unfortunately have passed away from substance abuse or overdose. And that was kind of the biggest kicker for me to leave Amazon, too, was like, I have one life to live, and if I don't do this, I'm going to regret it for the rest of my life, no matter what way it happens. So I think that was one of the biggest things I learned was just how precious life is, and then humility at the end of the day. Personally, for me, I believe that we all kind of want the same things as like, to be supported, to be protected, to be loved and to feel cared for in some sort of capacity and like, that's what I've found in my sobriety, is the complete opposite of addiction is connection, and that those were the two things that I think I left that experience with that I take with me still to this day.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:08

That's awesome. That is amazing, actually. And I'm really curious, because you mentioned that some of the same reasons that you left the military also were some of the same reasons that you left Amazon, or at least some of the realizations that, you know, pretty much have one life. And I'm curious what some of the differences were, too. So let's start out, let's go back for a little bit here and tell me a little bit about when you transitioned out of the military, how did you end up at Amazon?

Steph Strine 09:41

Yeah. So it was... I had all these, as per usual, I had a plan. I knew exactly when I could get out. I was like, "I'm going to start an internship with a skill bridge", like most military transitioning officers are enlisted to. And then the pandemic happened, and I was like, "I do not want to do a virtual internship, like that's just not for me." I was in San Diego at the time, and I think I was, like, a little bit over a year and a half sober. So I still, kind of like navigating this new life that I was living. And I got out in September of 2020, and I wanted to stay in San Diego. San Diego was opening and closing non stop. And so Amazon kind of came about in a very strange way, like, I was unemployed for about four months, which was very, very challenging for me to kind of deal with as someone that was like, "I'm a transitioning military officer. I went to a service academy, like, "I'm a female, I'm also a minority", like, but it was also the pandemic, and we had no idea what we were doing, right? So and on top of that, trying to stay in San Diego, which is one of the nicest places to live. I made it quite challenging to transition out with those things that I was looking for. All to be said, I also was limiting myself, like I said, I did human resources in the military, and so I was just gravitating towards, like, I'm going to go to these HR specialist roles, and I'm going to look at these like, HRBP roles just because, like, that's how my brain thought that I could only exist within this box. And I was getting my master's around that time, and I transitioned to virtual as well. And someone has just been like, "Hop on an Amazon webinar and just see what positions they're offering" whatever. And I was like, yeah, okay. Like, I could never work at Amazon. I've never been, like, a data driven gal. I've never loved, like, math or science or anything, and so I just didn't really think there was a place for me at Amazon. But, you know, there's a military pathways program there, and they look for transitioning veterans within their first year that are about to have their master's degree. And so it seems like a pretty good fit at the time for someone that was also in dire need of income. And yeah, I went for it. I was like, you know what, if anything, like, it'll just be a learning experience and see what happens. I'll learn a lot about all the orders that I buy off Amazon. That's how it kind of came about. And then so I started in January of 2021 so I had about four and a half months leading up to me starting my first job out of the military.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:13

So tell me about then, when you got to Amazon, I heard you say just a minute ago that I never thought I would be the type of person who would go to Amazon, necessarily, and not data driven, not interested in math, not interested in science, necessarily. And in some ways, the polar opposite of how you viewed yourself at the time. So what parts of that, once you actually got to Amazon, what were the parts that actually, surprisingly, were a fit for you, and then what were the parts that you discovered were definitely not a fit? Tell me a little bit about both sides.

Steph Strine 12:46

So, first couple of six months at Amazon, I absolutely loved it. I was having the best time, I had a great boss, he taught me so much about the business. And the cool thing about the Pathways Program is that you get additional guidance from seasoned leaders at Amazon. And so I really enjoyed that time that I got to have with my direct manager because I was able to, like, very much ask the questions that maybe I was not afraid, but like simple questions that an Amazon manager should know. But as someone that's completely new, had no idea. And so I would say, like, that piece was something that I really, really enjoyed in the beginning was the ability to make mistakes and not be micromanaged by that boss specifically. And then it's very structured. I mean, when you think about it, I'm sure like most people, like, I order a lot off Amazon. And so, like, it is nonstop. We have a 24 hour or they have a 24 hour operation and customer fulfillment. And so it is a well churn machine that is operating all times. And that comes with a lot of steaks. So they look for people that can be there for 12 hours at a time, and kind of put their life on pause during the holidays, like I didn't work... I mean, I don't know, I worked every single holiday for the past two years. Luckily, I left before the peak of last year, but like that was a huge piece of that I was not used to, I mean, we got holidays off all the time in the military. And so that piece was a little bit challenging. But you know, at the end of the day, what I found was that like, there's people that work in the Amazon facilities and that until they make it completely automated, it's going to be a people driven business. And for me, like I mentioned, like, people are my passion. And so that leadership piece came to me very easily. I was, like, very good at building relationships, like, cross collaborating with different stakeholders in the fulfillment center that I was working at the time. I was able to help promote and grow, not only like Amazon Associates, but also the managers that reported to me. So that piece for me was really easy. The piece that was really challenging was towards the end, because I started working nights. I moved from a fulfillment center to a delivery station. And for us to start getting vans on the road, we had to start working at like midnight.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:11

So then, tell me a little bit about what led up to this... let's call it deciding that fitness is going to play a bigger part in your life and your work.

Steph Strine 15:23

I got my 200 hour yoga certification when I was stationed in Okinawa, Japan. For those that have been in Okinawa, Japan, you know, it's, like, very small, I didn't know what it was when I first got there. And so when I got there, I was like, "Oh my God..." There's a lot to do, but I was 23 and super naive. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I have nothing to do. My life sucks." And I decided to get my 200 hour yoga certification from someone that was teaching on base, it's the best thing I ever did. And I started to teach when I was a second lieutenant on base. I taught at a local CrossFit gym in Okinawa. And then when I got back to San Diego in 2016, I started to teach at core power yoga. And I was always doing that when I was not at work. When I would leave work, I would either be going to teach a class, or going to take a class. My life very much revolves around fitness. And that was the case for about almost, let's say, like, eight years. It's almost been nine years since I got certified as a yoga instructor. And then got a couple additional certifications throughout. I was also leading, you know, there's a lot of different training that they do. And so I loved it. I mean, it was just something that became a big part of my life. It was like, I just realized, after a long time, of kind of like downplaying my own skills and talents, like, I had this self limiting belief that like, I could never make money doing fitness full time. Like I always, I think it was something that was just kind of like pitch to me growing up is that like, people don't make money in the fitness world or, you know, you can't do that full time, you won't be making the amount of money that you will, which is true, actually, that is true. But at the time, I was making really great money and hated waking up every single day. I found a lot of joy in connecting with clients during class after class, like, it was just that there was a moment where I was just like, "why couldn't I do this all the time?" And that's also something that coaching prompted for me, you know, it's like, I have a lot of friends that have pivoted out of corporate jobs, and they now do yoga retreats, or they do instructing full time. And I see these like actual physical examples of people doing what I wanted to do. And I'm like, "Oh, I can't do that." And as soon as I got introduced to this program that you offered, and kind of just had like a moment of clarity of like, life is very precious and very short, I just knew that I had to go for it. And once I decide on something, I just kind of get the wheels going. And it's actually pretty quite insane how quickly I started to roll once I, like, made that decision of like, "okay, I'm gonna go for this."

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:09

I think that's really fascinating to me because even in the beginning of our conversation, there's this clear pattern of once you decide on something, then it starts to happen pretty quickly for you. And that seems to be the catalyst. So here's what I'm curious about, then, like it took a long time for you to move through those, I think you called them limiting beliefs earlier. But when you were saying, "Hey, I had these real examples of people doing this– creating a career in fitness." And you're like, "I can't do that." What was causing you to think that at that time? Do you recall?

Steph Strine 18:53

A lot of fear. A lot of fear of failing. That's always been a theme for me is like, what if I'm not successful in this? And there's an exercise that you have us do in the bootcamp that I mean, quite frankly, like, changed my life, kind of getting emotional about it, talking about it, but like, reaching out to friends and family about like, this is how it introduced stuff. And almost every single person said things that, like, I just hadn't really internalized or I thought that was like, "Yeah, whatever I do that", like I bring people together, or I inspire people to make changes in their lives since like... Not that I wasn't doing that in the military or at Amazon, because in a sense, I feel like I did, I brought that element. But like, most of the time, I was doing that in the fitness room. And I just had this overwhelming sense of my body. I was like, I am not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Like I need to go do this now, even if I don't know what it looks like. And as someone that likes to know what things look like, it was a lot of fear. I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna make money. I don't know where am I gonna go. But it was a lot of just like, I really needed to see it. And I read it. And I got it from a lot of people a lot. And I was like, "I can't deny this from people that I trust and value", like even mentors in the military, were saying, like, "A fitness professional", you know, and I was like, "what?" I mean, like, I mean, I guess, but it was just... I needed to see it to believe it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:32

It's kind of a... it's a really funny thing, at least from my perspective over the years, because that type of exercise, and just a little bit backstory for, if you're listening to this, and the exercise we're talking about is one that we regularly use with clients where you might reach out to say, anywhere from 7 to 25 different people that represent a different portions of your world, you know, work, friends, family, all kinds of different things. And you can tell me how you felt about this Steph, but a lot of people are, there's a little bit of trepidation, there's a little bit of fear, because it sort of feels like you're putting yourself out there. And what are these people gonna say, and all these things. So that's something that we see really normally. But also, I cannot tell you the number I've been told, probably over 1000 times now, no joke, probably over 1000 times by different people that we've worked with, that exercise was so valuable, and changed how they thought about themselves. And it sounds like that was the case for you, too. So how did you feel about that before, first of all?

Steph Strine 21:40

Before, I mean, All of you say, I mean, I definitely send it to the right people.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:44

So here's what's really interesting is like, we're asking people to say what are the really positive things about you. So in hindsight, it's like, well, what am I scared of? Like I'm asking for positive feedback. But when you're actually doing it, it doesn't feel that way at all, right?

Steph Strine 22:04

Yeah, I think more so. And it's something that I've had to do, I'm still kind of learning and growing, but like, I've outgrown, I think some of the things that were taught to me growing up, and so I think a lot of... I had a lot of, I'm a former people pleaser. And so like, I very much valued what my mom and my dad and close family members would think about me pivoting to this, but it was, like, a unanimous, like, “You're really good at this, and you need to go do this” in a very, like, flowery, nice, like, positive way, not just like, "what are you doing with your life?" It was unanimously like you bring value to this piece of my life. And the majority is through connection and movement. And after? Yeah, it was, like I mentioned, this just overwhelming sense of, I have a lot of people that believe in me, and why don't I believe in myself. And to kind of go back to what you said, of like, once I make a decision, things start going, something that helped me with my coach was literally looking back on things like, "Okay, well, you did this, and you didn't know what it's gonna be like”, but it turned out really well. And you got your masters or whatever. Or you didn't know you were doing at Amazon as an operations manager. And turns out, you're one of the top performers at your site. Like, if you look back at your life stuff, like a lot of things that you've done and accomplished have turned out really great. So like not to say that this isn't going to be one of those, but like, “why not you?" And that was the question that my coach proposed to me. And I was just like, "wow", I love that session. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, why not? Why can't I go do this?" I couldn't come up with any reason why.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:50

Was it at that point in time where you realized that you had to make movement when you couldn't come up with any reason why or did it still take a while longer?

Steph Strine 23:59

Nope, it didn't take that much longer. Like I started moving things very quickly. I started working with Happen To Your Career in October of last year. And by the beginning of November, I put in my resignation. As soon as I knew that, that was not my path to be going down any longer, like, I knew that I had to start making changes where I wasn't going to go for it like. And so, with not a lot of visibility onto what it was going to look like, I just started to make, like, controllable changes. So the first was, like, to let them know that this is not working for me anymore. And I was going to leave, small things like getting out of my lease and stuff like that. And I don't know, I started moving very quickly. Luckily for me, and one of my dearest friends that helped me get sober, she reminded me of this is that, like, I have a cool opportunity because I don't have a family, and not to like shame on myself or anything, but like I have the ability to go make these decisions. And I have two dogs that will come with me. It's really hard to have dogs in New York City though, I am learning that now. I don't have to check in with someone else. I'm like, I can make that decision as someone that single. And so I had this, maybe down the road, I wouldn't have had that opportunity if I met someone or I had kids or what, life would be different. And so I was like, I have to go do this now with what I got. And so I started to make those, like, changes pretty quickly. And I was in New York in the beginning of December. So it was about like 60 days, and I moved out of my place in Atlanta, and was in my new apartment in New York.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:43

That's amazing.

Steph Strine 25:45

Some call it crazy, but it is amazing to me. Like two months, I did a lot in two months. But I would have stayed if I didn't go.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:57

I think here's what is, we'll call it interesting. For me, what I've observed over the years is that those things that we all, or people call crazy, are often things that are not normal. And what is normal is for people to stay in roles and jobs and work situations that really just don't align with what they want, and really are not ever going to be what they actually want. And so what I've learned from that is that if people are calling you crazy, it's probably a good sign that you're leaning into something that is great for you. So kudos to you, because although not everybody in the world will understand it, I think you've done some really amazing work. Can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing right now? And also what the future looks like and what you anticipate you will evolve to as well?

Steph Strine 26:55

Yeah. No, I definitely agree. I think crazy is such a relative term. What I absolutely love doing, and I'm really stoked about that. But right now, I am an assistant studio manager at a SoulCycle on the Upper East Side. I'm also teaching yoga at a couple of studios, one on the Upper East Side. And then coming back to core power yoga. However, and I've been very transparent with the team here about it is like, I realized in my last month at SoulCycle that I think I was kind of selling myself short or kind of I see in this role I see myself like relying on those like old patterns of like, the managerial stuff, which is important, don't get me wrong, because the studio cannot run without the behind the scenes stuff that goes on. But I know my life's purpose is to be instructing and in front of clients, whether that's on yoga mats, whether that's on a treadmill, I learned that this last week, I auditioned for SoulCycle. And I was like, “This is what I'm supposed to be doing.” And I left there after like two hours of biking, after auditions, and I was like, so tired but I couldn't stop smiling. Like I don't leave, you know, I didn't leave Amazon that way. I didn't leave my Marine Corps job that way. And I'm not really leaving my assistant city manager job that way right now. So I know that this is just a step in the right direction. New York is really small in the fitness world. So creating those connections period is a great way to just, like, meet people. But what the future holds, I've been doing a lot of auditioning, I have a lot of like instructor roles that are kind of on the horizon right now. And then in the future, I was supposed to be getting my 300 hour yoga certification right now, I was doing a little bit too much, and it ended up just not working out. So I'm actually going to India in November with one of my mentors who introduced me to yoga, another full circle moment. So like, I think the biggest thing for me now, like what the future looks like is like, I'm painting it, I'm creating it. I can also like, change it whenever I want to, I'm not stuck in a place where I don't know. It's quite freeing, but for someone that struggles with a lack of structure at times, I have to create that for myself. And so I try and do that with my dogs. They're very routine oriented. I try and time for myself whether that's like a workout or maybe it's just, like, going to get my nails done or something. I mean, life looks very different now that I live in New York. Very small space, definitely different budget, you know, and that's been interesting to navigate as someone that didn't really have to be so meticulous on that before but I'm making it work and I've been here now for like almost three months. And so hopefully here shortly, I'll just be instructing full time. I don't know where and what capacity, but definitely like, in that career profile, it was like overbearingly, you know, just visible that I need to be doing something that's instructing base. And that's like something I'm invested in. And so that's why I know right now that like, this is just kind of like a stepping stone. It's not my forever job. It's helping me to make ends meet so that I can do the next best step. And so that's definitely a growth for me, because I think I looked at this as like, you know, I don't want to let people down if I'm leaving, it's like, no, like, this is my life and I'm going to do what I want to do. And I know that I want to do fitness, instructing full time. And so it's actually been really empowering to know that, like, to make these decisions on my behalf and not just settle for something because it's giving me a paycheck.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:49

I think one of the really fun things about your set of experiences and your story is that it's still rapidly developing. And I think that that is awesome, because a lot of times when people will listen to the Happen To Your Career podcast, and we'll share a story, sometimes it feels like there's some level of finality when they've accepted, like one opportunity or something else. And what gets lost sometimes in a 35 minute episode, is that no, the stuff is ongoing developing. And the thing that I loved and do love about your story is you're actively leaning into this more and more and more, and you're getting more, like, you're getting those moments that sometimes people go their entire lifetime without where you're like, are leaving and can't stop smiling. And I think that the more that you can lean into that, the more you find more of those as well, or understanding a greater level of detail about what you need in the future. And I think the really cool thing about where you're at right now is you're getting a lot of doses of that which you can then incorporate into, here's what the next evolution and the next evolution and the next after evolution after that looks like. So I really, really appreciate you sharing all of that, and everything that comes with it. That is super cool. And one of the things that I wanted to ask you, for other people who are in a similar situation, whether they have transitioned out of the military, or whether they are recognizing that they need to change in one way or another, and they're back at that initial stage where, like, "okay, I need to do something different." What advice would you give that person who's right there?

Steph Strine 32:40

I would say, trust your intuition. I mean, if you're kind of “woowoo’ like me, you get that or trust your gut or, like, you know, what's best for you. And I think, like, that can be as simple as, like, "I know I want to be in this location", and maybe locations really important to you with family or whatever. Or like, “I know I want to be, you know, IT-driven, or I need to be in that space.” Like, I knew what was best for me for a really long time and I just was too afraid to say like, “I'm gonna go for it.” And I think, especially in the military, a lot of times, or it's been my experience, so I'll speak about my experience, is that a lot of the things that I brought to the table were kind of not muted, but kind of assumed to be like, everyone has those, like, everyone knows how to talk to people. And everyone knows how to have difficult conversations, and everyone knows how to de-escalate. Like, not all people actually know how to do that. So a lot of like those social skills and like those are actually really powerful tools to have. And especially in the military is, like, just know that you bring a lot of value to the table. And to not let yourself get, like, pigeonholed into a specific, whether it be sales or operations is like, yes, we can do those things, but we can also do many, many, many other things that we don't even know exist. And so that would be my advice, follow your intuition. And then also like, you bring a lot to the table, no matter what.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:21

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:14

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 35:19

So, yeah. He granted me severance when they really don't do that. And it was because I asked. But I really needed support to ask for that because it was obviously such an uncomfortable thing for me to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:35

Severance packages are something we often don't give much thought to. Actually, it's something many people try not to think about. It sounds like a terrible thing. You're either on the wrong end of a layoff, or you're needing to leave a job, or maybe someone else is forcing you to leave a job. It's usually a stressful time. But there's an entirely different way to think about severance. And if you understand the power of asking for severance, you could actually use it as a tool to assist in your intentional career change. Now, I'm not here to tell you that asking for severance pay or a severance package is easy and it's not always right. It's not always the right thing to do either. However, receiving a severance package is not impossible. In fact, people actually do successfully ask for severance at all different types of organizations, even in industries where severance is practically unheard of, like education, for example, it requires a completely different level of thinking and expertise. This is advanced level negotiation maneuver, and today we're diving into this bold strategy.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:48

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it, and if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player, so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week, until next week. Adios, I'm out.

Kristen Rocco 00:01

I think I opened myself up, finally, to the possibility of something else in my future. And I finally started to put more into myself, learning about myself, discovering myself.

Introduction 00:20

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:46

Everyone's heard the whole proverb about "The best time to plant a tree is, you know, 20 years ago. And next best time to plant a tree, right now." Okay. Well, here's the thing, what if you could start planting a tree in the form of doing the work now, just little tiny bit by little tiny bit, to decide what it is that you want to spend your time doing? What you want to spend your time doing in the form of a career, what you want to spend your time doing in the other areas of your life too? Well, I'll tell you that, if you do that, it can make a massive, massive change for you when something unexpected happens.

Kristen Rocco 01:30

It took me a while to depersonalize it. From, "Oh, this is me. I just need to find how I can fit in and get it right." versus, like, "No, I'm never gonna get it right. This isn't the right environment for me."

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:44

That's Kristen Rocco. Kristen had been in PR Communications and Marketing for the entirety of her career, but she had started to feel burned out and like she was no longer aligned with her role. Kristen was sick of feeling stuck, and she knew deep down that a change was absolutely necessary, so she began working with a coach. Just as she was making progress on what more fulfilling work would look like, life threw her curveball. She was unexpectedly laid off, but because of the work that she had been putting in, Kristen was able to look at this as an opportunity. She had already done the groundwork, and now she could fully embrace what she had built, which happened to be her very own content marketing business, and podcast. I want you to listen to how Kristen got unstuck and how she figured out what she wanted to pursue for her own business. Here's Kristen sharing where her career first began.

Kristen Rocco 02:39

I started 15 years ago in PR, it's how I got my first step into this, you know, area of marketing, and I was planning and producing and helping my clients tell their stories in the press. And it was a really interesting time to start in marketing broadly and then PR specifically because the space was evolving in such a fast way. So when I came into PR, social media was just getting going, and so we were taking advantage of social media for business and trying to figure out how businesses could benefit from social media outreach to their potential audiences. So got my hands dirty with that. And then again, about five years later, content marketing was kind of new to the scene, and then it was like, "Oh, wow. In addition to reaching out to the media with pitches and story ideas, we can actually write these stories and produce these articles for our clients, and create editorial calendars and build out all of their own media for them." So I was able to get into that kind of early on and out the gate. And so that's kind of how my career went over the first eight years. And then after I moved from New York City to Atlanta, I decided to take a break from corporate America for a while and start a new business called Love Notary, where I brought storytelling to the wedding industry and started helping engaged couples document their love stories. And so it was a really interesting business because I was able to define a new category in the wedding industry, right? There was, I don't know if you're familiar with the New York Times vows section, but it was kind of like that, but bringing it to the more general market, right? Because that was kind of for fluent, elite celebrities and people to get their stories told in that way. And I just thought that it was cool to give engaged couples this legacy throughout their wedding planning process. So I did that for a couple of years full time, and then I decided again to go back into corporate America, this time really trying to focus in on content marketing, just because, in addition to the creativity of the storytelling, I also have a real business mindset and very strategic mindset, and so it was cool to me that I could couple the creativity with the business side of it and drive leads for businesses through their content marketing approaches. So that is kind of what took me through the 15 years of my career and then reached out to you all to help me think about what my next transition would be.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:28

What caused you to say, "Okay, it's time for me to make another transition." Tell me about what you remember.

Kristen Rocco 05:38

Yeah. I think it was a particular event over time. In my last job, I started to feel really out of alignment with, not the role, I loved what I was doing. Of course, you can see I'm very passionate about my space, content marketing and storytelling, but the way in which we operated as a team felt very out of alignment with how I wanted to do my work, and that took a while to come to a realization that it wasn't me that didn't fit into that equation, that that company didn't fit into my equation, if that makes sense. I think I took a lot of... it took me a while to depersonalize it from, "Oh, this is me. I just need to find how I can fit in and get it right", versus, like, "No, I'm never gonna get it right. This isn't the right environment for me." And so that's kind of what led me to Happen To Your Career, and I did a lot more discovery around those themes while I was doing the coaching, but initially it was because I felt very out of alignment with my role and the team, I guess.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:55

What caused you to begin to realize, or what caused you to realize that, "No, it's actually just not in alignment with what I want or what I need", as opposed to, "I need to", as you said, the opposite way, you know, "I'm trying to fit myself into this thing, and I might be doing something wrong." Do you remember what caused you to realize that it was the polar opposite?

Kristen Rocco 07:17

I mean, I think it was feeling demoralized on a day to day basis. I think it came down to that feeling, but if I were to think about it from more tactical points, I think I had a lack of control over my calendar. There were meetings six hours a day that people just plopped on my calendar, and I can't shed all responsibility, or I would need to have meetings, because we had so many things to do that were all conflicting priorities that needed to be done at once or at relatively the same amount of time, and so we just needed to get the work done, and it caused a lot of overwhelm, and locked up my calendar so that I spent the majority of my days in meetings and not having enough focus time to complete my actual work. And I think that day after day after day causes burnout, and then also not, I think that culture plays into it a lot too, and I think that the culture that was at this organization was a very challenging culture, not necessarily a culture of praise and a complimentary culture. And for me, I have thick skin. I worked in PR for eight years and had to get rejections almost every single day, multiple times a day, so that wasn't the case. But everybody needs a sense that they're moving in the right direction, they're doing great things, otherwise, they're just not going to feel satisfied in their job. And this culture didn't allow for me to feel like I was recognized for my best work. And so the combination of those things made me know that I needed to make a switch.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:00

So when you first started working on that, working on that switch, and I'm really thankful that we got the opportunity to help and sit side saddle with you on that. But what was hardest for you when you first started moving through that and doing the work about, like, what comes next?

Kristen Rocco 09:21

Yeah, I think I've said this a couple times, too, in variety different situations. I think that my brain was so locked into a daily just like a demoralized capacity, if that makes sense. And so seeing opportunity was challenging initially, and understanding what possibilities were challenging, initially. Being curious. My coach would ask me, "What are you curious about?" And I remember thinking, "I don't know. I don't know what I'm curious about", because I was just so focused on getting through everyday, and then trying to relax and power myself up for the next day that I really didn't spend enough time thinking about all of those other things, right? And I think I opened myself up, finally, to the possibility of something else in my future, and I let go of trying to control or not even let go of control, but I finally started to put more into myself, learning about myself, discovering myself through the process. Actually, it's a little bit like therapy, you know. But learning about myself more along the way, from a work sense, like values, what I wanted out of my life, and then what success looked like to me, how I define freedom, all those kind of things, so those were some challenges initially, it's just getting out of my own way, basically, and removing the blockers of what I was currently sludging through, because it did feel like a sludge to see that a brighter possibility on the other side of it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:09

Okay, so here's my question for you, then. When you started moving down that path of beginning to explore again for the first time in a while, what really created some level of extraordinary for you, not just what you're curious about, but what could be amazing for you, what did you find helped move you down that path, and what did you learn about yourself as you were beginning to move down that path?

Kristen Rocco 11:37

Yeah, so initially I was following the modules and going through the progression to get to the ideal career profile. And I was serious about that, right? Like it wasn't just something that I was trying to get through. I was actually putting time, attention, and detail into those questions and trying to think about what I wanted to be doing, and how I wanted to approach the work. And I'll say that I didn't necessarily know at the time that I wanted to do what I'm doing now, which is consulting, but I knew how I wanted to feel, right, that was a big factor in trying to figure out the next step. And then I think what I did, I tried to think about how I wanted to feel on a day to day basis, and connect that to organizations that could help me feel that way. And so looking for organizations that publicly, I guess, had a great culture, and then privately, trying to suss out whether that was true, and then really thinking when I was in interview processes, interviewing them as much as they were interviewing me to make sure that the culture was going to be really aligned with who I am. Again, that's what I felt out of alignment at my other job, or maybe I never fell out of alignment with it, which is more than just not knowing what I was getting into when I joined initially, and, you know, some things changed along the way as well, so that all kind of plays in as well. But thinking about how I wanted to feel and thinking about culture fit that would be the right place for me, and then also I was like, "Maybe I want to work for a mission driven company or something that was more connected to a bigger... something that had a little bit bigger meaning and purpose than the organization that I was in at the time." And so that's how I started. And then, you know, I think once I started answering those questions and putting more focus and energy into it, I was able to kind of identify companies and other things that way. But I also then, you know, started to, the visioning worksheet really sticks out in my brain, actually, because it was all about, "what do you envision your typical day to be like?" And again, I got to tell you, I was like, "Oh man, I haven't thought about this in so long, or in this way that what is even possible. When I close my eyes to imagine it, what would I even think?" But I was able to get through that and really come up with something that I thought would really fulfill me. And so I talked about in there, "I would like to have a variety of conversations with interesting people, and be able to share my insights with them and have them share their insights with me so that we can collaboratively bring more into the world, more learnings, more opportunity into the world, to help educate people and help them along on their journeys." And I said I wanted to work with a variety of different types of people, and I can't remember all the specifics in there, but basically it was a lot of connecting with people. It was a lot of empowerment messaging and just inspiring people as well. And so then that helped me think a little bit more about myself, I suppose, and like what my values are. And my coach helped me too, right? She looked at the visioning statement, pointed out some of the themes to help reflect that to me what I was saying, like, "Oh, this to me, sounds like you, you know, want to blah, blah, blah." And so I was like, "Oh, yeah, that really does resonate. I love how you sum that up. That speaks to me." And then we talked about, like, "Okay, well, what are my values?" And getting more into the personal side of things and less on the business side of things to kind of help bridge both of them together. And so then through that process, I was able to make a lot of progress.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:45

Okay, so here's my question to you then. You know, when you, let's fast forward here for just a moment, because what ended up happening is you're doing all this work to define what the next step looks like, and is becoming more and more clear that there needs to be a next step for you, and then at some point you experienced a layoff, right? So tell me a little bit about that and how it happened, and then also bring us up till now.

Kristen Rocco 16:14

Yeah, so at the beginning of the year, in January, my first session with Phillip, he said to me like, he's like, "As you reflect back on the year, what would you tell yourself at the start of all of this that you wish you would have known? You know, something to that effect. And I said, "I would have quit my job" or something like that. So I think I spoke this layoff into existence, to be honest. But yes, I worked in a technology company, and I think kind of, February was a time where there, and still there's a lot of volatility, and there's a lot of speculation on what's going to happen. And so my company did lay off some people, and I was part of that. It was the first time I had been laid off in my career, and I surprised myself completely with my reaction to it, because I feel like the old Kristen would have been really scared, fearful, anxious, overwhelmed, like, "Oh no, what do I do now?" But I was... I flew. Actually, the day I got laid off, the very next day, I had a family wedding in Florida that I was flying to. And so I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is great. I just got laid off, and I get to go party with all my family now, how amazing." And so it was just a choice that I made to not live in that, like, quote, what I consider or how I can relate it to, like playing small. I'm going to embrace this, and I've done a lot of work over the last eight months to push myself and know myself better to go into the right next fit for me. So I'm going to make a choice to not do things the old Kristen way and celebrate this that it's just that push forward to the next best version of myself. And so I took the weekend dancing away at the wedding, and then came back here, and I guess five days later, when I got back, I started creating my consulting website and putting together, not necessarily business plan, but my thought processes on how I was going to go to market with a new content marketing consulting business, which kind of comes full circle around why I now call myself a storytelling entrepreneur, because I have weaved in and out of corporate America, but I started the love notary business, which is storytelling in the wedding industry. And now I'm doing my own business again, this time focused on content marketing, support for businesses, and so I'm just really excited about this next chapter. But, yeah, it all kind of led to an unexpected conclusion because I didn't, obviously, I wouldn't have thought that I was going to be laid off. I thought I would make the transition myself, and I am a really, like, high performer. So it's not like, I mean, layoffs can happen to anybody. It doesn't matter your performance level when it's related to the recession or the economic environment. But I think that it happened to me this time because finally my mind was open and had wanted to go in another direction, and this was like the kick in the pants to just do it. Because I don't know, I was still very scared to quit myself without having complete confidence on what the next step looked like for me. And now I didn't have a choice. I had to get this website stood up, put thought process into how this is going to deliver services to my clients, and get the word out. And I'll say that I launched my business about a month after I was laid off, and after that, I was fortunate enough to... and I can't be more grateful for the people who showed up for me and my network. But I got a lot of referrals, and I now have a couple of clients that I'm working with full time, so I'm really excited about this.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:22

I'm excited for you, and I know I had told you that already before we hit record. However, it also begs the question of it's really, first of all, fun for us to sit here and talk about this now, is seeing that some things have worked out, but it's also easy for us to do so and that it's already happened. So what I'm curious about is, what do you feel like you did that allowed you to be able to make those choices differently when the layoff happened? Because I suspect, as you said, the old Kristen would have done it differently, and you also said that you made the conscious choice to behave differently after it happened, but what allowed you to make that choice? Because I don't think it was just, it wasn't just like, "Well, I'm gonna make a choice and everything's gonna be okay." Like, there's probably some things that happened that got you to that point or that you did.

Kristen Rocco 21:21

Yeah, yes. I want to say, like, going back to my strengths, like I'm an achiever. I'm going to do all the work, and I'm going to put in all the activities. And so what first had to happen for me to be able to do what I did was a mindset shift. And so I know we talked about it in terms of a choice that I made to be optimistic, to know that there were possibilities out there, to not let overwhelm and fear get in my way. And that was a really important shift for me. I really had previously kind of operated out of a scarcity mindset, and I was able to finally make an adjustment to an abundance mindset, and so that was really important for me. But my achiever mode and my ability to just keep pushing and excelling got me to this place where, "Okay, I now have no work to return to tomorrow, so I have to guide what I'm going to do." And I said to myself, "I could either start submitting a thousand resumes a month, or I could submit proposals to clients who might be interested in working with me one on one." And so I'm like, "Why not give the consulting route a shot? What's the worst thing that can happen? You know, I don't get, you know, a new business or whatever, and then I can just go and apply for jobs." And so I chose to count on myself and go all in on me this time around, and not leave the decision making in the hands of a recruiter or a hiring manager, but rely on the fact that I've been doing this for 15 years, and I know what I'm talking about, and I deliver great value to all of my clients I've had previously all the organizations I've been in, and do it for myself. And so that's what I chose this time around to submit proposals.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:29

I think that something that's really fun there is that you, and this probably comes from your strategy strength, I would imagine, recognized that if we're pulling out and saying, "I'm gonna spend the time doing something in order to..."

Kristen Rocco 23:45

I'm not going to be the person that's gonna Netflix and chill.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:50

Yeah. So if you're gonna spend the time doing something, there are multiple choices about what that something could be, whether it is, as you said, "I'm gonna submit resumes, or I'm going to do things to be able to a lead to a job", or "I'm going to use that same time to submit those proposals." So I think first of all, that's really cool that you had that recognition that it doesn't just have to be... the thing doesn't just have to be, "Oh well, obviously I need to get to submitting my resumes now. Like, okay, all right, let's move on." So after that, though, it also seems like the other thing that is really pretty cool about that is you were able to connect back that choice to all of the other mindset shifts that you have had along the way that enabled you to understand that that was the right choice for you.

Kristen Rocco 24:44

Yeah, that's a good point too, because when you are your own operating your own business, there is a lot of uncertainty naturally with this path. I don't have the consistency of a paycheck every two weeks. These contracts will eventually come to an end, and I will be looking for new clients again. And I did need that shift in my mindset to be able to do this effectively, because otherwise I could get way too deep into being scared of not getting new clients to let that affect my work product with my current clients, right? Or, you know, however, that could manifest within my business and what I'm doing on a day to day basis. And so, but now, I have everything sort of calendared out in terms of how I'm going to approach my time on a week to week basis. I have given a number of client hours that I need to fulfill weekly, and then I segment out, okay, these are the couple of hours every week I'm putting towards new business, and I'm going to work on that this time this week. And I know I just can kind of feel it in my gut that things will work out, and even if they they don't work out on my timeline, that laying those seeds always grow flowers, and so it's a matter of being patient and just continuing to plant the seeds or put one foot in front of the other to do the work that you know is gonna produce the outcome that you want. So that's kind of where I am right now in terms of my mindset and approaching all of my responsibilities with as being a business owner.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:33

So let me ask you this then. Let's go all the way back for a moment to where you were at the point in time where, like, "What am I curious about? Like, why are you even asking me that question? I don't understand. I'm not in a place to be curious." But let's go way back there, to that point in your life, what advice would you have for someone who is sort of living that right now and recognizes that they need to make a change, wants to make a change, but isn't totally sure, like what or how or when or when, what advice would you give to that person?

Kristen Rocco 27:10

I think that the word... there's two words that come to mind for me when you ask me that question. The first word is stuck. I totally know how this person feels. They feel stuck in their current situation and unsure about how to get out of their situation. And then the other thing that's coming up for me is recognizing that feeling is important, but also knowing that you can unstuck yourself by doing the work, and the work looks a lot like what we do in the program. But there's also another thing, way that I look at this, and I've learned this through coaching as well. That the how, right, so like, "How do I get to the next step? How do I find the job? How do I reach out to that recruiter?" Whatever the how is, the how isn't as important as the who, which is, I know what you coach through the program, right? And which is, it's all about reaching out to people to learn more and find out more about what they do, and making connections with people, so you can start evaluating these things. But the reward really is in the who, because that's how the how comes. And so I just recommend that people think not about the process of the how, but who can they meet that is going to open their eyes up to what the possibility is. And so I think that my advice is focused on meeting people, asking a lot of questions, and building your connections, because it's the who that's going to help you get from where you are today to where you want to go in the future.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:00

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:53

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 29:58

I have a lot of friends that have pivoted out of corporate jobs, and they now do yoga retreats where they do instructing full time, and I see these actual physical examples of people doing what I wanted to do, and I'm like, "Oh, I can't do that."

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:14

We all have a place where we feel comfortable and natural in our actions, where we're excited about life and happy to be ourselves. But what if you could feel like that all the time, even when you're working? I've heard people say, "I feel like I have to be a different person at work", or "I feel like I'm living two different lives." Many times throughout my years working in HR operations and interacting with clients at HTYC, I've heard this over and over again. Well, it turns out work doesn't have to be this way. To thrive at work, you must first figure out where you feel most like yourself and where you can be more of who you want to become.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:55

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it, and if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player, so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week, until next week. Adios, I'm out.

Morgan 00:01

I love saying the motto, like, "sometimes you have to slow down to speed up." And that truly was what I was doing. I had to slow down for a second to be able to come in with a fresh perspective. Because I don't think if I did that, if I did not do that, I don't think I would have been able to think of some of the potential solutions or directions that I could have gone in.

Introduction 00:29

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:54

Sometimes, the hardest part of a career change isn't figuring out the next step. It's trusting yourself enough to take that next step.

Morgan 01:03

At some point, you have to give yourself the permission to let go and say it's okay, and no one else is going to do that, or no one else is going to say that except yourself. So if you're waiting for somebody to tell you, "it's okay to go ahead and let go", make a change, do something different that comes from you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:19

Morgan spent most of her career in HR following the path that she had started back in grad school while studying industrial organizational psychology. But even as early as her internships, she had this nagging sense that something about the path wasn't quite right. Fast forward to 2023. Morgan was in deep burnout, feeling stuck. She knew the role she was in was absolutely not working, but the fear of making the wrong move kept her from taking action. This is a place that many people have been before, and this is where we got to meet Morgan. She reached out to our team, and she worked up the courage to leave her misaligned role with our team support. Woohoo! But she quickly realized burnout had crept into every corner of her life. So instead of diving straight into the career change work, which she was really excited to do, we suggested that she take what she now calls reset and rejuvenation time. You'll get to hear all about Morgan's reset from burnout, rebuilding of her confidence, her new awesome role that she's super excited about. But here's what I want you to pay attention to. Pay attention to the big hurdle that Morgan had to overcome. Because we see this all the time, and it keeps so many people stuck in not so great situations. She realized that she has been searching for the perfect end all be all role, and what she really needed to focus on was taking intentional steps toward something that she identified as her ideal next step, not the perfect role, but a role that aligned with her strengths and fit her life. Okay, this is subtle, but this mindset shift finally helped her break free from that stuck feeling. Also last thing, I want to call out something fun. Our team actually got a chance to meet Morgan at our in-person meeting in St Louis last year. We don't get to meet all the people that we work with in person, but we make an effort to get to know folks and put a call out when we're nearby. So that was really exciting, and we had a great time. When we met her, she had just started working with us at that point in time to make her career change, so she was still in the thick of burnout, and early in that change, and that's where our conversation began. Here's Morgan reflecting on when she met our team and she knew it was time for a change.

Morgan 03:43

Yeah, just before that time. I mean, goodness. Now, if you want to talk about when I chatted with the team and we were hanging out, I was probably, you know, past the red zone that you hit when you should have left and made a change. Looking back, I would absolutely not recommend you wait as long as I did when, you know, you've realized, okay, a change needs to happen, and you ignore it. You ignore that signal for a very long time. Until you've gone past the point of, "Okay, I'm really drained. My energy is taking a hit. I'm snappy with my spouse. Now I've gained 15 pounds. What is going on? I can't even give myself motivation to go to the gym anymore", which is a huge part of my identity. If you talk to any of my family, my friends, like, I am always a go getter at the gym, I will always be there, staying on top of the fitness, like, my mom would joke with me if I haven't gone to the gym, she can tell because I am very like a type of way.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:41

You're a different person. You act differently.

Morgan 04:44

Oh yeah. So once I felt that piece of apathy come in about not even feeling like you could have the motivation to even want to go to the gym, that was the biggest red flag to me, where I knew I had greatly overcast that boundary. But before, earlier in the process, it was these little, you know, maybe, like quiet, little whispers, maybe of, "Hmm, I don't know if I'm vibing with this or I'm not sure if the impact, the purpose of what I'm doing is really lighting me up", like, I can do it and I'm getting great reviews and lots of positive feedback, but I'm not feeling that energy from that, you know, that prideful feeling that you get when you go at it full force into a project. And you should, and, you know, at the end, like, "I should be really proud about this", but then you don't feel that thing, and you're like, "Uh-oh, this is not like... This is a sign."

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:41

Yeah, I remember you mentioning that too, when we got to meet you in St Louis. And for context for everybody else, we happened to do a team in-person meeting there, and that was super fun. So I'm curious though, you mentioned you felt you stayed way longer than what you should have. What do you think, in your case, and lots of us do this, I think it's a human tendency. But what do you think caused you to stay so long?

Morgan 06:10

Multiple things. The biggest thing truly was, I recognize that the role that I was in was such an amazing opportunity for somebody who had pursued an IO Psych master's degree. And I was very, very much wrapped up in that identity and trying to pursue the expected, traditional path that somebody for that degree should go out and get. And so in my role as a, I was an organizational development partner for a retail company here in St Louis, and I looked at this role, and I'm like, "this is an amazing opportunity for somebody who is absolutely a go-getter in organizational development practices and loving that." I mean, even just saying that right now, showed the disassociation from that identity now that I look back at it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:02

For somebody who should do it. Yeah

Morgan 07:06

Yes, for somebody who's into this, if you say that to yourself, you should probably take a step back and reevaluate. But you know, it's fine. There were such great opportunities in that role, and I am so, so very thankful for all of those experiences, it's going to make me into a better person as I continue down my career path. So I have absolutely no regrets at all whatsoever doing that, but had such amazing resume builders and ability to have visibility in the organization, working with senior leadership and the CEO even, which was super, super cool. Got to put my name on projects and initiatives across the company, be super creative in that. There was very... It was a very flat organization. So it was a wonderful sandbox, basically, where you didn't have many levels to reach up to that upper leadership level to partner with them. And yeah, it was just super fun. Lots of variety, but at the same time, I realized it was that wide variety that started to drain me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:08

Well, so, what do you mean when you say "it was the variety that started to drain you"? That sounds important.

Morgan 08:15

Yeah. So I was overseeing some different buckets, and I was looking over the performance management process, the talent assessment and succession planning process, the employee experience, listening, survey strategy, data analysis and insights, and also some career frameworking stuff as well. And there was such depth to all of these buckets, and we were in a place where we were still building these processes up. And so the amount of work that just went into each of these buckets, the level of detail needed for each to make them great things, was just I couldn't give it that kind of attention, which now if you want to go back to considering strengths, for me, was such a tough thing, because I cannot stop maximizing stuff. I cannot stop thinking of new ideas for things. I am super big in maximization ideation, and I just, I can't stop doing those things. So the fact that I couldn't, I think that that was a huge player in it, for sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:19

So you had all of these categories in which you had responsibilities for and you were feeling compelled to, or couldn't stop yourself from generating ideas and not enough hours in the day to be able to really get any one of those significant progress, or at least what you wanted to. Is that right?

Morgan 09:38

Right. Yeah, correct. Because also to add a little spicy flavor to that, we had an implementation going on with a new HCM, human capital management system, that was brought in. So we were also integrating these processes with that as well, which there's such, you know, a level of depth to, you know, setting up the technical components, especially with the employee experience, listing surveys, all the embedded data fields and, oh my goodness, it was crazy. But yeah, there was a little spice there with that as well, just adding to some of it. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:10

Yeah. So you had this massive project that required depth going on, along with all of your normal responsibilities, duties, activities, and this is not adding up to something that is fulfilling any longer with all that variety. That makes total sense. And I can appreciate that too. You and I share some similar strengths in, I'm very much a maximizer. Very much want to get everything out of every minute, every section, every project, every conversation, whatever. So I can definitely appreciate that. And then the ideation side too, like, if that is a strength of yours, it's hard to stop that. Hard to stop. So what then caused you to say, "Nope, I'm doing this. I am making a change." At what point did you say, "No, this is... I've had enough. I've realized this. I've had enough of these small little tidbits, these clues", and you're like, "This is it. I'm going to do this."

Morgan 11:15

Oh, my goodness. It took a bit to get there. I'm not gonna lie. I only got there when I started working with my coach, and I felt such a dedication to the projects that I was working on that I just, I literally did not feel like I could leave them, because I felt, you know, a sense of guilt of putting that on somebody else without having the deep technical knowledge that went into those projects. So there was a lot of guilt leading up to that decision of allowing yourself to let go. That was a huge learning for me in this process, was at some point, you have to give yourself the permission to let go and say "it's okay", and no one else is going to do that, or no one else is going to say that except yourself. So if you're waiting for somebody to tell you, "it's okay to go ahead and let go, make a change, do something different" that comes from you. So it took me a minute to get there, but I finally cracked open the possibility of doing that in my head, after visualizing what that would look like. I'm a highly visual person. That is something that I have to see what something's going to look like. I have to walk through the steps and feel how it's going to feel before I do the thing. So when I was working with my coach, we had talked about visualizing and mapping out what some of the options would look like if I decided to leave or if I decided to stay. So okay. Option A, you stay, here's what it looks like. Okay. Option B, you leave. Okay. Now, what dates could we look at to leave? What do those look like? How would that go, like, timing wise? How does that feel? So I started mapping out all of those different options, and it wasn't until I did that where, you know, one date in particular, kind of stood out to me, and I looked at it and was like, "You know what? I could make that work. I could do that." And that feels like, I definitely feel like I don't want to overstay my stay past that date. I just came to that conclusion, as well as some financial planning and analysis. Of course, that was super, super helpful to me to understand the minimum needs, the moderate needs, and then the maximum needs. Mapping all of that, having a conversation with my spouse was super, super helpful to keep them in the loop as well.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:30

Well, and let's add a little bit of context in here. When we first started working with you, if I remember correctly, you were pretty hot to trot excited, I don't know, insert your choice of words here about some form of career change, even if you weren't ready to fully commit, if you will. And at some point along the way, you were working with Ben as your lead coach on our team, and at some point, you had decided that, "No, I need..." what Ben had called a reset along the way. Tell me a little bit about that. How did that come about? What caused that realization?

Morgan 14:16

Yeah, so the reset you're referring to is in leaving the job and reset rejuvenation, right? Is that we're talking about?

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:25

Yeah.

Morgan 14:26

Yeah. So I left in July, and it's so phenomenal, like, you're blasting music on the way to your last day in the car, it's, "I'm quitting, I'm done" music, and you leave, you turn on your laptop, and you walk out of there, and you're like, "oh my gosh, the world is my oyster. I can do anything." And it's super funny, because I immediately came out thinking, "Okay, gonna get the resume together. I'm gonna talk to the people. I'm gonna do all the things. I'm gonna do the experiments. It's gonna be phenomenal." And Ben was like, "What if one of your action items for until the next time we talked was just to sleep really good, go do some workouts. And then also, like, what else would you like to do to take care of yourself?" And, you know, I was like, "Oh yeah, maybe, like, go swim at the pool in the middle of the day when the gym is like, not super busy, and things that you couldn't do if you were in your day job." And so I focused on these super basic things. And then I really realized that there is a period of time after you leave a job and you've kind of been wrapped up in an identity and kind of going, going, going and not really thinking about what you're doing, and then all of a sudden, all of that stops. And I was just like, "Oh my gosh." And I slept a ton. I literally spent a day where, I think, for 16 hours, I just read a book, and it was the most phenomenal thing ever. We took a trip to a national park, we went to Iceland, and there was this whole like reset rejuvenation period where... I love saying the motto, like, "sometimes you have to slow down to speed up." And that truly was what I was doing. I had to slow down for a second to be able to come in with a fresh perspective. Because I don't think if I did that, if I did not do that, I don't think I would have been able to think of some of the potential solutions or directions that I could have gone in. So, yeah, that was a little bit of the reset phase.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:29

Yeah, you know, it's interesting. I think that what we've seen, and if you would ask me 15 years ago, I don't think I would have recognized that this is prevalent when people are making a, not just a career change, but any big life change. It's almost very similar to people go through stages of... it's similar to, like the stages of grief. Let's call it that.

Morgan 16:52

Oh, 100%.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:53

And I think that really is derived from your making a transition and reassociating your identity, and so many of us tend to cling to pieces of our identity that are wrapped up in our work and in untangling that, it causes us to be going through those stages that are really similar to what we called grief earlier. So what I'm really interested in is what you said about how had you not done some form of a reset, you don't believe that you would have been able to make the same type of decisions, or have the perspective, if you will, going into that. When you're thinking about that now, obviously, we're quite a bit in the future, and this is all in the past, so it's easy to see, but when you think about that now, what do you think would have been different? What do you think might have changed the outcome?

Morgan 17:49

Oh, gosh. Well, I mean, I do have experience where I was trying to make a change before I left, and I did have a couple offers lined up the year before I left. One of them being a life coach position for a university, the other being a career coach position for a different university here in St Louis, and I truly was making a decision based on fear, what we've talked about here in the HTYC podcast, I was definitely trying to run from something versus run towards something. And I think if I hadn't given myself some perspective, I still would have done that same thing, running away from something or running out of fear from something, "Oh, I need money right away, so let's go ahead and get something with a really high salary, or anything different at this point sounds good, like anything and everything, I'll take it." Those are kind of the ideas I would probably run down if I had not allowed myself to just slow down, take a beat, evaluate, be super strategic in what went well in the past, what didn't go so well, what gave me energy, what drained me, all of that good stuff was very good to keep in mind. And of course, the ICP, the ideal career profile, of course, taking a moment to really structure that outline that it sounds so basic like, "oh, let's think about what we want", but it's really so important. And we talk about it in IO Psychology too, define your criteria. You can't measure success unless you define your criteria, that's exactly what you're doing. So really taking the moment to define that criteria allows you to move in the direction towards something, like move towards something versus away from something. And I don't think I would have done that had I not taken a beat and taken a moment. Yeah, probably now I'd be working as a career coach for a university where they were about to have an org change. I don't know who my boss would have been. That's what I was about to walk into when I was in the model of getting away.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:55

Dangerously close to that. What caused you to say, "No, I can't accept these." Because I think it would have been easy to accept the opportunities that are right there, right in front of you, but something calls you. Yeah. There's definitely. There were things going there.

Morgan 20:12

Yeah. Oh well, there was the possibility to go travel for a week in Spain, all the glittery things that was calling my name. Yeah, absolutely. But I really did some deep questions with the hiring manager, and she was so great to do a couple, you know, follow up questions with me and or a couple sessions of that. And I think she could tell I was really trying to pick apart, you know, if it was going to be a better fit than where it was at. And I wasn't so sure. I think she kind of had an idea, but I really got clear on, you know, because your boss makes it or breaks it. And the moment that I knew that they hadn't even hired for who that position would be reporting to, that an org change was coming down the line, and there was essentially no guarantee of what the role would look like six months down the line, I was like, "Those are two big things." So, yeah. That's kind of the moment when I evaluated and said, "I might just need to stick it out a little bit longer and re-evaluate in a bit."

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:22

Well, kudos to you for digging in and trying to find some of that, even if it was driven from a place of fear, you still you dug in, and we're trying to decide and learn enough to be able to, I guess, enough to make that decision. You said something earlier that I want to come back to for a moment. It sounded like, as you were going through and identifying like what could create a great fit, it sounded like you were looking for external sources to give you permission. Is what I heard you say earlier. Tell me a little bit about that, because I know from chatting with Ben that this was a pivotal part of your process. So I want to do it a little bit more justice here. You mentioned it, but it sounded like there's so much else that went on here that caused you to recognize that you're seeking permission, and then also move beyond that.

Morgan 22:20

Yeah, absolutely, yeah. I was definitely kind of just waiting around for somebody to tell me, "You know, it's fine to go, like, change your job, get out of there." But again, no one is going to give you the permission to do that than yourself. And I just didn't realize that. And I don't think I had the confidence, or the, oh gosh, what would you call it? At the time, I didn't have the confidence to give myself permission to do that until I visualized those options. Really understood what leaving would look like when would make the most sense, and then just, you know, have faith that after that, things would be okay. I'm an adaptable person. That's one of my strengths. So I was like, "You know what? I'm very adaptable. I can do this." So that was also very validating to think about. But when it comes to giving yourself permission to just move on, and not waiting for your spouse to say, "yeah, it's okay", I mean, that does help, I think, when we did the financial analysis and really looked at things, he's a very numerical kind of a person. So speaking that language was extremely beneficial, of like, "All right, here's what it looks like six months out. This is what it would look like if I took that amount of time" and we realized, "yeah, it's gonna be fine." So that helped me give myself permission to leave. And then from there, you know when you're in that process of a limbo, there's a lot of self guilt comes when you're unemployed for sure, which is a whole other topic we could dive into. But there is a component there when you're considering your next move, you are, and you're going through that identity shift, again, there comes a time when you need to give yourself permission to do something different to change, and I think doing the strengths exercises with friends and talking with them about what I personally do well that they might, you know, it doesn't come as easy to them. That was very validating to be like, "Yeah, I am awesome at disarming people in a way where they can be totally honest with me and give me a ton of information. I should use that strength. That's awesome." Or, "Yeah, I am great at rolling with the punches, or super creative, you know, when something totally changes, bringing a ton of ideas to the table and selecting out the best path forward." Like, I should use that strength in whatever way that looks like. And so that was also very validating that did play a pivotal role in slowly building up that confidence to let myself make my decisions. And additionally, like intuition, Ben really talked with me and told me to kind of just take a moment to write down when I started questioning some of my gut feelings, and made me start recognizing those moments that I was questioning that, or putting the mute button on them, and I recognized that it was quite a bit. So once I was a little bit more self aware about that, I was like, "Okay, let's listen to this." And that did help me give myself permission to do something different, like, "oh, I would like to do something in coaching, something in empowering people and motivating people, because my strengths look like this, and I have all this data to back it up, and looking at qualitative data from my past work experiences, and seeing that as a thread throughout different roles, that is something I should follow." So yeah, it was a multi faceted approach, I guess I could say, in things that give you little pieces of confidence to do what you need to do, but sometimes you also just need time. Time to just sit, time to just chill, and sometimes you just gotta do the thing, even though you're not ready to do it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:01

I think what's really fascinating. I'm listening to you talk about, one, how you began to recognize this. Part of this was writing down when you were feeling less confident, and then you started to observe as you were doing that, "Wow, this is actually happening a lot more than I think." But then it sounds like what was happening is that was pulling your awareness to when you were experiencing that and searching for it. I'm just gonna call it validation elsewhere, externally. And then the other thing I was taking from listening to you is that you mentioned earlier about the visualization, like, visualizing what could this look like, fleshing out what would the future look like, how would this work, all the way from a financial side to everything else in between, and then that allowed you to start to disconnect and be able to move forward in a way that was good for you, without waiting for everybody else to say, "oh yeah. Like, yeah, you should totally go this direction, Morgan."

Morgan 27:04

Oh, yeah. It's a great way to keep yourself accountable when you're like, "I can't do this", and then you actually map it out and take the time to detail out what something would look like and be objective about it in that way, it keeps you very accountable. Like, "No. It can work."

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:20

So one of the other things I wanted to ask you about that I think is really interesting in your story is that your work, and even how you're doing work, or in combination of work, right now, looks so different than it did back in 2023. Can you tell me a little bit about, just share with us, like, what is different, first of all, for context? And then I've got a couple of questions for you.

Morgan 27:48

Oh, 100%. Yeah. Well, I mean, first things first, the team is very different. I, you know, previously was on an HR department team, and you know, you've got your total rewards team, your HR BPs, you've got your training experts, and then the org development team, comms, all that, whereas now it's a lot more specialized in like just psychology stuff and career assessment and coaching, so it's a lot more focused into one specific area, which I kind of love, because I really, really love to deep dive and go into all the nooks and crannies. So I was really, really hyped to be working with a team of experts focused on career change, motivating, empowering others who came from a psychology background, because I love the psychology stuff, and I didn't want to leave that behind. I just wanted to apply it and use it in a different way. So the team's different. The working model is 100% remote. So we've got... Our team is... we've got Washington, New York, Mexico City, and like, we cover all the regions. So it's funny because I am an extroverted person. I really enjoy working with a team that really is an aspect that makes or breaks it for me, so it's hugely important. And a lot of times people told me, "Oh, well, if you're extroverted, like, you've got to work in an office, then, like, you have to do that." And I don't know, I was just like, well, I really do enjoy the perks and flexibility of working remotely, and I feel like if I just find a place where the team is pretty tight and they're collaborative and all that good stuff, there shouldn't be any reason why I couldn't feel like I belong on a team and communicating, sharing ideas and all of that. And that's what I found. So it's 100% remote, which is phenomenal. I love my little commute from bedroom to bathroom to kitchen to office. It's wonderful, but I still get all the perks of meeting a ton of cool people. All of our clients that we meet with are from all over the states and everything, so from different countries. So I love that as well. Yeah. I mean, I am working with clients who are looking for change. Instead of leaders or stakeholders across a business trying to improve organizational effectiveness. The end goal and purpose of my work, I really wanted a client, instead of being an organization, to be a person. I wanted to shift my work to make it much more individual impact focused, because I always loved opportunities where I was able to sit down with leaders and really decompress data and insights and visualizations with them and chat about, you know, what we could now do with this data to improve situations or team culture and all of that. And so now I feel like I've shifted in a way where I am still doing what I love in terms of decompressing assessment data and insights, qualitative data from work experience history, and then strategically ideating some creative solutions for clients to make a change, and it's just in a different way with an end impact and who I'm working with that is a lot more aligned with what my ideal was for me. So, yeah, those are, like, the biggest things that are coming to mind right now in terms of, like, environmental differences, team differences and content. Oh, and I, like, had the most random thing I'd put on my ICP, where I was like, "it'd be really awesome to work with people who love travel and adventure?" And the head of assessment, who I talked with, she is such a national parks geek, and that is the thing we absolutely connected on. And it was so great. Yeah, so there's a lot of great things we were hitting on.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:30

That is so funny. It goes back to, I mean, just another piece of evidence for what you talked about earlier that had you not done that, what we would call identification work, to say, "No, this is what I want. It's on paper. It's on purpose. Here's where I'm going, here's where I'm running to" then it may not have happened in that way, right down to the point where you get to work with other people that care about travel and national parks.

Morgan 31:57

Absolutely. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:58

That's fantastic. So how has the way that you think about work changed through this experience or set of experiences? Because clearly, the work that you're doing and how you're doing work has changed. It's very different in all the ways that you just articulated. But what do you think has been the biggest changes for how you think about work?

Morgan 32:21

Oh yeah, gosh, they're significant. I mean, even just waking up, I thought it was so cliche when people were like, "Oh, I wake up looking forward to work." Not a thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:31

No, nobody does that. That's not... It's fake news.

Morgan 32:33

Yeah, no one does that. No, I wake up and I'm like, "Oh yeah, I can't wait to work on this client today, or dive into some insights today." And, yeah, I just get super revved up to do that. And even when I end the day, even if it's a hard day of work, work is tough at sometimes, regardless of where you go, but how it makes you feel at the end of the day, like how quickly you feel energized, again, at the end of the day is a huge difference. So yeah, earlier I used to just be so drained. And like, you've got the zombie person who was me on the couch scrolling through Netflix, I'm not going to the gym. I can't even care to get into my car. And now it's like, okay, yeah, I'll take a beat. I'll, you know, 30 minutes, maybe a little brain break, and then boom, I'm revved up. We're going. We're getting to the gym, and, yeah, it's just a totally different experience when you're done with work for the day and you just feel excited and you're, you know, I noticed I'm a lot more energetic now when I'm hanging out with friends or with family, going to holidays, for example, I just got drained so so quick in the past, but now I feel like I am a lot more revved up and engaged in conversations, and my relationships are better. My husband is probably most thankful that I'm not as, like, short and snappy with him. I'm a lot, yeah, a lot more tolerant of things, which is like...

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:58

Finally, Morgan, finally.

Morgan 33:59

Yes. Oh my goodness, yeah. That's great, yeah, lots of benefits everywhere, really. But yeah, work, it's funny, like I realized, oh, you can feel like you're having such a meaningful impact, and it revs you up. Like that's not something I was really feeling as much. I saw how somebody, again, somebody who is really into the business effectiveness, you know, development stuff could feel like they're impacting and there are totally people out there who that's going to feel super meaningful for them and rev them up, and that's great. But for me, like I am feeling so revved up and like I'm making a huge difference in the role that I'm currently doing, just more so than I was.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:40

Well, so let me ask you about that, because I think what you're talking about right now is not just important, I would say it is critical. And specifically when we're experiencing the, I'm going to call it like the great opportunity syndrome, where it's like, "yeah, that's a great opportunity for someone", and we feel compelled to continue going because it's a great opportunity, whether we feel guilt, whether we feel, you know, whatever else that tends to keep us there and keep us focused on that, because it's got that great opportunity, which does not, as we know, mean it's a great opportunity for you. So what I'm curious about is, what advice would you give to that person who is in that great opportunity, but they're not feeling all of these other wonderful byproducts, like, "Hey, I'm actually excited to wake up in the morning and thinking about, you know, the things that I get to do, as opposed to have to do." You know, what advice would you give that person that is maybe stuck in that place that you were several years back?

Morgan 35:47

Yeah. I mean, that's a tough place to be. I think it, and this is hard to come to this realization, but it's okay to say no to things. I think, especially with high achievers, which, hello, that's me. Especially with high achievers, hello, I'm high achieving. What's your name? Especially with high achievers, it's so easy to be a 'yes' person, because we have this assumption that if we say no, it means we're not driven, we're not motivated. But really, I mean, you just kind of have to shift the mindset of, it's okay to say 'no', because it just means that you're looking to further align yourself with being able to use your strengths in a more meaningful way, show up authentically, those are all super important things. And yeah, it's just it's okay to say no. So if you're stuck in an area that you don't want to be in, and you know that you've got this inkling of a feeling it's not the right fit, and you get a promotion, I think it might be a really great idea to say, "Hey, I really appreciate this. I'd love to think about it for a little bit", and then deep dive into what do you want your life to look like, how do you want to show up at work, and just check that criteria out and see if it's gonna align well.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:13

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:06

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 38:11

I think I opened myself up, finally, to the possibility of something else in my future. And I let go of trying to control, or not even let go of control, but I finally started to put more into myself, learning about myself, discovering myself.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:33

Everyone's heard the whole proverb about "The best time to plant a tree is, you know, 20 years ago. And next best time to plant a tree right now." Okay. Well, here's the thing, what if you could start planting a tree in the form of doing the work now, just little tiny bit by little tiny bit, to decide what it is that you want to spend your time doing? What you want to spend your time doing in the form of a career, what you want to spend your time doing in the other areas of your life too? Well, I'll tell you that, if you do that, it can make a massive, massive change for you when something unexpected happens.

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:18

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it, and if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player, so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week, until next week. Adios, I'm out.

Amanda Love 00:01

I recognized I was burnt out. And here I am, thinking, corporate America just quit. I won't be burned out. That solves my problem, moving on. And it really did not. At all.

Introduction 00:18

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:41

When you're burned out, it's easy to think that finding the perfect role will fix everything, but that's not how burnout works. Simply leaving a job doesn't cure the burnout without giving yourself time to recover and get clear on next steps. Burnout has a way of following you around. But here's the real challenge, not everyone can afford to take a complete break from their career to recover. And that's often where we recommend what we would call a 'bridge role' or an intermediary role. A well chosen bridge role can give you the time and space to step back, reset, and figure out what you really want out of your career transition. Think about a bridge role as a strategic step in the right direction, an intentional step building the bridge to your ideal career.

Amanda Love 01:31

I went to my husband and said, "I need something. I think I can leverage my network to find something that'll help keep the kids fed" because they're teenage boys, "and then we'll be good to go. And once everything picks up, we'll just go from there and decide when it's time for me to step away from this other role."

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:56

That's Amanda Love. Amanda spent the majority of her career working for the world's largest retailer, managing mobility. She was exceptional at her job, but being so good at it came at a cost. She realized too late that she had allowed herself to be overworked to the point of burnout, and she knew she needed to quit. When she started looking for a new role, she thought that her burnout would disappear right away and everything would go back to normal. But that's not what happened. Amanda continued to feel the lingering effects of burnout, and finally hit a breaking point. She realized that something needed to change, but not just her job–her entire approach–and that's when we got to meet her and start working with her. She decided she needed to stop chasing roles without knowing what she really wanted, and instead, she focused on finding a bridge role that gave her some breathing room and allowed her to create an intentional career change. Before we jump in, I just want to point out what we mean when we say bridge role or bridge opportunity. What we usually mean, it's an opportunity that is leading you to the longer term goal of your ideal career in one way or another. And many times, we're looking at it as multi purpose, not necessarily just for the sole purpose of income, but maybe using it as an experiment in a certain industry, or to see if you like one thing or another, or to be able to build relationships in a certain place. In all cases, you're going to hear more about Amanda's experience leveraging a bridge opportunity. All right, let's get to our conversation. Here's Amanda talking about the early days of her career.

Amanda Love 03:31

So right after graduating college with a degree in psychology and zero direction on where to use a degree like that, I jumped straight into sales because I knew I wanted to do...

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:44

Obviously, psychology going to sales.

Amanda Love 03:47

Exactly, psychology-sales. And my mentor at the time told me, "Doesn't matter what you sell, go sell something, and then you'll have this whole data to show people and say, 'look at what I've done. I'm great at sales.'" So I got into the mobility space and worked for several mobility retailers. I wanted to get out of that. Went ahead and got out of that, and ended up at the world's largest retailer managing mobility because it's all familiar, insane. My career at this large retailer was a roller coaster. I'll be honest. There were lots of high highs and lots of low lows. And the low lows were the things that really started to get me down, and I could not find people willing to get behind my development and continue to invest in me. And I felt like that was not consistent with what I was hearing around the office that, "Hey, you can have any career here. Just make a pivot and we'll support you." And those things really never happened for me. So I went ahead and left corporate America to do I'm not sure. I started looking for jobs, got offered a job, worked for this company for 30 days. It was a tech startup. And I quickly realized that tech startups were not for me, and I left and decided, "You know what? I'll start my own business. I'll do exactly what I already know to do– sales." And I became a sales broker for retail partners and vendors, and kind of bringing those folks together. That was kind of the last step, I would say, Scott, that it still didn't feel right. It still didn't feel rewarding or fulfilling. I thought leaving corporate America was the answer, and it wasn't. It really wasn't. And my husband was the propellant for change for me. He was in the mortgage industry for years and years and years, and hated every single second of it. He came to me one evening and said, "I think I want to do video game design." Talk about a 180. And I said, "I support you. Go do what you need to do to learn and get a job." He did those things. I sat down with him, we crafted his resume, we looked at all of the job postings and made sure to bring all of the buzzwords together, and I prepped him for his interviews. We talked about how he had transferable skills, like, we did every single step that I know you teach, and he got a job with an amazing video game company that relocated us to North Carolina. And that was really him being able to prove to me it could be done. And he did it. And then us moving, our family, picking up and moving, that was the catalyst for change for me that I got to hit the reset button and say, "You know what? I want to find out what aligns and will be fulfilling for me, and I've got to find someone who help, who can help with that." And enter Happen To Your Career and my amazing coach, Amy.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:05

Was there any particular moment or set of moments that you recall that led up to that?

Amanda Love 07:10

I would say, I wanted what he had. And I told him that very specifically. Because I saw how excited he got when he would learn something new, or when he could show off his skills to appear, or his supervisors, and they didn't know he had that skill. And he would get just so bubbly and exuberant. And I wasn't talking about my career like that anymore. But now, I'm like, "Ah, I just want this day to be over." I wanted that. And I told him, "I want what you have."

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:50

That's very cool. Very cool. Another thing that, before we move on, you were talking about how you, you know, career wasn't working out, and so you made a transition, you thought that leaving corporate would be the thing, right? And I think that that's really common, it's an incredibly common action, and it seems really logical as a thought process. "Hey, if I do this one thing, if I remove what I perceive as the biggest challenge, then it should be amazingly better, right?"And it sounds like it wasn't for you. There was no exuberance, as you said earlier, that followed. So when you look back now, what do you feel like it really was? Or what combination of things, maybe, that it was? If you were to go back and do this all over again, obviously, it led you to here, so it's okay. But what do you think now? How do you think about it?

Amanda Love 08:53

You know, when I look back on the struggles that I had in corporate America, and it doesn't matter if it was the most recent that happened or further back in my career, anytime I had "an issue" with something or someone, it was very projected. That person is no longer on my list, and we get really stuck in those cycles. But what I have come to realize through career coaching, and I have a therapist, right? So I have all of these inputs coming in reminding me that, you know, it's about my own perspective and it's about my own projection, and because I was failing to understand or not communicating appropriately and still not understanding how to story tell, those were the things that I was falling short of and never acknowledging and projecting those shortcomings on others. So what I've really come to learn is, the more I know about myself, the more inward reflective I am. I can take myself out of the situation and be a lot more unbiased and think through the other person's perspective and mine, and then we can have a better dialogue around how we move to next. And I would tell you that I have taken my own program, as I'm auditing my own program, because I had to get a bridge job to pay. I have teenage boys to feed, so I've gotta, you know, have something to feed them as I build my business, and I've audited my program, and I've brought all of these things to the job in corporate America again, and it's amazing. The amount of respect that I receive for setting boundaries, the amount of respect I receive for communicating clearly, the amount of respect I receive for going, you know what? I might have been a little hot to trot on that one. Let me back up and hear your side of the story. And it's really gone really far for me, even in a few months in this role.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:05

That's really cool. That's really cool. So with your kids, and I heard you say that part of this for you, part of this long term pursuing of what you really want to be doing required some level of, I'm going to call it fundraising, in the form of bridge opportunity or a bridge role, right? What made you decide that that's a great direction for you?

Amanda Love 11:34

I did not decide that for myself. My anxiety did.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:38

That is... I'm default. Either way, it got decided. Tell me about that guy.

Amanda Love 11:45

You know, I went to my husband and said, "I need something. I think I can leverage my network to find something that'll help keep the kids fed" because they're teenage boys, "and then we'll be good to go. And once everything picks up, we'll just go from there and decide when it's time for me to step away from this other role." And he was really supportive, and my network came through for me in dividends. So yeah, it was kind of decided for me, for my anxiety, because I needed to make sure that we were going to be okay, and that was the peace of mind that gave me, or I guess, that was the action that gave me the peace of mind that I needed.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:29

So if I'm understanding you correctly, then, you're saying that not having that continuous form of income, in one way or another, not having that continuous, I'm going to call it relationship, in the form of what we're calling a bridge role here, bridge opportunity, which we should probably define too for a moment. A lot of times when we say bridge opportunity, we usually mean an opportunity or role, or in this case, job, that is leading you to the longer term goal in one way or another. So what do you feel like this bridge role has really done for you?

Amanda Love 13:09

It's done a couple of things for me. So what's great about it is that it's pretty easy for my skill set, and I'm able to get a lot of the work done in a much shorter amount of time than maybe some of the some others in this role. So that's kind of a plus for me, because it gives me a lot of balance to be able to go and respond on social media to anything, or to reach out and email my clients. So that's really great. The other component I touched on earlier is that it's given me an opportunity to see if what I put together as my program works. And it does.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:49

It's important, as it turns out. Yeah, I guess one of the things I'm thinking about as I'm listening to pieces of your journey, your story, is that it sounds like, when you say things like, "Hey, my anxiety decided for me." That although this absolutely sounds like the right decision for you that you made, it sounds like maybe it wasn't the easiest decision in one way or another. Tell me a little bit about what was going on at that time that led you to say, "Oh yeah, this is happening because this is going to be a better path forward. It'll allow me to manage my anxiety" and anything else that you've benefited from it.

Amanda Love 14:28

Sure. I went through, and I'm a budgeter, I like my Excel spreadsheets. So I had gone through and kind of ran some numbers and I had told my husband that if I did not hit a certain dollar amount by a certain date, which was by December of this year, we were not going to be able to continue to live the lifestyle that we have grown accustomed to. And while that's okay, we have pulled back and those things are just part of life. Sometimes we add, sometimes we flow. It was more about, it would make me feel better if I could contribute to the household income. And knowing it was not long term, I leveraged my network, got really excited, told everyone in the interview as they asked me things like, "Where do you plan to be here in five years?" And like, "I don't plan to be here in five years. Thanks for the question." I was extremely transparent during even the interview process that this is a stopover for me. And then on day one I started, and I clocked out at five and turned to my husband and said, "I don't like it. I hate this. I hate this so much. I do not even want to continue to do this, but I know I need to do this because I committed to the family to bring in money." By Friday of that week, I said, "Oh, this is going to be great. Because I know more than they think I know, and this is going to be amazing", and it has been. But that very first day that I even started, I even left, clocked out and said, "This is not for me", and it really is not for me long term. I know that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:22

Yeah, absolutely. And that was part of the intention. What caused you, do you think, in that first day or two to really question that? Because obviously, you know, you got to the end of the week and you're like, "No, this is actually going to be really great, and it's going to not only serve the purpose, but be better than I thought it might be." But that clearly wasn't how you felt on day one. So what was the big difference now looking back on it?

Amanda Love 16:46

I think day one, day two, they were a little... they weren't familiar with me– my leaders and my peers. And so there were a lot of, "I'll call you in a couple of hours and see how you're doing. I'll call you in a couple hours and give you more work to do." I'm over here going time out. Please don't load my plate with a lot of filler work. And originally I thought this is the cadence they're setting. This is the tone. And really what it came down to was, we don't have anything for you to work on and jump into straight away. So why don't you learn about the company? And looking back, I could probably provide that feedback to my boss and say, "Hey, next time, just put that out there. And I think that'll be a little more helpful to people to know that you're not a micromanager and I'm not going to do busy work all day. I'm going to do meaningful work for you, and you'll let me just go on my own." And that's exactly what she does now. But those first two days, I really thought I made the wrong decision.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:50

It took a couple of days to get there. Well, kudos to you for giving it more than just the snap judgment and then continuing to have conversations. And it sounds like it has worked out well.

Amanda Love 18:02

Exactly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:03

That's amazing. What advice would you give to someone who is in a similar situation where they're wanting to pursue a shorter term role, like a bridge opportunity, and they're trying to figure out, like, "how do I make this work?" and they know they're not going to be there forever, kind of similar to what you did, what advice would you give to that person?

Amanda Love 18:23

I would say, to do your research. If you don't have that internal connection, go ahead, do your research, find out what you can find out so you're prepared and be very transparent in the interview process that you're looking to learn, to grow, and to really understand if this is a good fit for you, and don't be afraid to share that. I think that that's probably the biggest thing that even I was a little uncertain to share and be transparent with people I did not know who were interviewing me and making a decision about my employment, that was really scary to say, "Look, I'm not going to be here in five years, but thanks for asking. I appreciate that." And knowing on the backside, having been in hiring in the past, knowing that that's kind of a cost analysis that they've got to make on the fly, it's scary. But you kind of read the room, you bring it up at the right time, and you make sure that you spin it in a way that's really exciting and positive. If you just say, "Look, I am not going to be here for five years, so..."

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:37

Deal with it.

Amanda Love 19:38

They're going to move on. "Hey, I'm here to make a really great impact and set you up for success. So that when you hire my replacement, you will have exactly what you need to continue down that path of success."

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:54

You know, I think it's always fascinating to me is most people like the average interview is people coming in and they're sharing what they think, whoever they're talking to that represents the company, wants to hear, right? Like, that's your average interview. The BS is palpable in many different ways on both sides, not even intentionally, necessarily. That's just how it tends to happen. But what I think is really fun and interesting is that when you're addressing in a more transparent, more authentic way, people are tended to be attracted to that. Not always. And you know, if it isn't a fit, it allows people to talk more openly about how it's not right a fit, and then not to waste a ton of time through the interview process. And then, you know, people can move on. But I think more often than not, my experience has been in for myself, and then also all the people that we get to help that when you're able to be much more open, at least open in a way that serves the people that you're talking to, it tends to produce better results. And you know what? Here's what's really funny, like, the data says that people are not going to be there beyond five years, anyways. It's a rarity. So why are we all pretending that, you know, we're going to be there for more years? Yeah. Exactly. Really nice job. And I really appreciate you sharing that part of your story. I think the other thing that really stands out to me is that you had a number of times where either anxiety or mental health came up and impacted this transition as a whole. And I was wondering if you could speak a little bit about some of those other times. We've already talked about one in particular. But I think this is a real thing that many, many people experience, and it doesn't always get talked about in so many different forums. So would you be willing to share a little bit about where else this came up in your process?

Amanda Love 22:06

Absolutely. So here I am thinking, "I have to quit corporate America because I'm burnt out." I recognized I was burnt out. And here I am thinking, "Corporate America just quit. I won't be burnt out. That solves my problem. Moving on." And it never really did not. At all. And I didn't know what I didn't know, and I didn't know how to find what would be fulfilling. I think what I did was I went to Google and said, "Who can help me find what I should do in my career?" And there you were. And I did the mini course, and went, "I'm already leaps and bounds ahead. Let me go ahead and sign up for this program." But when I started working with my coach, one of the first things she said, "So we were supposed to have a 30 minute call" an hour and a half later, she let me at least go on and cry. And I cried and cried to my new coach, who did not know me from anybody else. And at the end, she said, "I want you... It's all out. Now, I want you to dance on it and find you a therapist." And I took her advice because I'm here wanting to learn. If I'm not going to take the advice, then just throw it away. So I called and set up a therapist, and I learned so much about why I was burnt out. I was burnt out because I didn't have great boundaries. I was burnt out because I was constantly looking for praise from everyone. I just wanted to be validated. I can validate myself today, but then I couldn't. And I didn't realize these things were missing in my life, and they were driving a lot of my unwellness, just feeling like yuck every day and not seeing the sunshine in my life. So bringing those two components to someone who can help me find a direction and someone who could help me understand me, that was peace and resistance.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:17

Oh, my goodness. That is amazing. And I'm really fascinated to... One of the things I'll tell you is we work with a lot of people that also are working with a therapist. And we don't have, this is a place where I'd love to collect data, this is the analytical side of me that jumps out here. But my working theory is that people who are making big changes in their lives, whether it be specific to career or otherwise, tend to work much faster and more effectively than, well, let's use the case that we see all the time as an example here. Like, if we're working with somebody, if they're also working with a therapist, our observations are that they tend to be a lot more effective if they're working with both us and a therapist. So you know, you did a great job deciding after your coach, in this case, Amy, had suggested that to you. You still had to make the decision to go and do it. And it sounds like it was a wonderful experience for you. But I'm curious what your observations are. What did that help with as you're going through these big changes in your life, and what maybe were the surprises along the way for you?

Amanda Love 25:34

I think the surprise for me along the way was that my... and I touched on it previously. I issue my burnout was maybe magnified by the person I reported to. But the problem was mine to begin with. And I was not expecting the problem to be mine to begin with. I was expecting this problem to have been theirs and someone on my side going, "You're right. That person was awful", and that did not happen at all. And it was a real eye opener for me that because I allowed this person to come to me and asked me to work late on special projects, or would call me on my day off and have me work, or request that I work. And I would say, "yes". My kids were off doing things, and I should have been with them. And kids don't keep. Children don't keep. And guess what? I don't even speak to this individual anymore, but my kids are still here, and now they're grown. And so there really was no respect for my balance. And that wasn't their problem, that wasn't their fault. I allowed that. And having that look in the mirror that it was what I allowed was probably the biggest and most surprising for me, less than I learned out of therapy.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:07

That's really cool. I think that's maybe one of the biggest surprises that I see over and over again, not just for working with a therapist, but for maybe...

Amanda Love 27:18

Maybe as a coach.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:19

Yeah, absolutely. I think that so many people, when they're thinking about making big career moves or even small career moves, in one way or another, they go through what you experienced where it's like, okay, it's obviously the boss, or it's obviously the schedule, or it's obviously, and we're externalizing, or, you know, you called it projecting, it onto something else. And what we tend to find is that, yes, in part, it is about identifying and aligning the right situation or environment or some of those external pieces with what creates a more fulfilling life for us as individuals. But the other part that's just as big is that behavioral piece. And it's really, really difficult to, one, acknowledge where we need to change our behaviors. And then two, actually do it. And you have done quite a bit of both. So that's really fun to see.

Amanda Love 28:17

It has not been easy. I will say that. It has not been easy. There have been easy components, but there have been times during the process that I was so mentally and physically exhausted from all of the work that I was putting into myself or my program or whatever. It would put me straight to bed at five o'clock, you know, because it, like you said earlier, those that work with a coach and a therapist move a little bit faster, and I felt like I was moving at the speed of light sometimes. This is too much.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:57

It creates problems, but better problems, right?

Amanda Love 29:01

Better problems. Great problems to have. Absolutely.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:04

Yes, yeah. Oh, that's funny. That's really interesting. For somebody else who's in a similar situation that is interested in doing their own thing in one way or another, tell me a little bit about that. Particularly, you know, now that you have been heading down this road for a while, and you've been pursuing your own business and have been actively building it in various different stages, and having gone and gotten a bridge role to be able to supplement and all the other things that we just talked about. I'm curious, what are your learnings? If you could go back and do it again, what do you feel like you did really well that you would say, "Oh, yeah, definitely consider this."? And what do you feel like you would change that you'd give people advice on?

Amanda Love 29:51

My answer might be a little cliche, but I'm gonna say it anyway.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:55

Say it anyway out there.

Amanda Love 29:58

Wouldn't change a single thing, except one thing, and it would have been to start sooner.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:05

What makes you say that? That's awesome. I feel that. And also what causes you to say that?

Amanda Love 30:10

So I built my program around burnout and not getting to the point that I was at where I sat in a corner crying because I felt broken. And I don't want anyone to get there. So I would have started sooner, and I wouldn't have let the burnout get so bad. It took me away from my family, which is my happy place for too long. Sorry.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:41

No need to apologize at all. I think that the part I love about this for you, that even though, like, this is deeply emotional for you, it is also deeply emotional for you and that you care about it tremendously and you care about preventing it for other people, and I really, really resonate with that. What do you feel like, now that we're already in tears, what do you feel is the hardest part of all of this up to this point?

Amanda Love 31:18

I think the hardest part is getting over imposter syndrome. Especially knowing that that background that I've shared about no boundaries, needing validation, having people that I was starting to surround myself with, that believed in me when I couldn't, believed in me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:38

Who are those people for you?

Amanda Love 31:40

Amy was one of them. And the gal that I've been working with doing training stuff contracts. Her name is Andorra. She's a mother. My husband. I probably should have said his name first, but...

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:52

It's okay. In no particular order.

Amanda Love 31:55

In no particular order. My husband, my kids. But you get, you kind of get, or at least I do, I get stuck in this like "but you don't live in my life. You don't experience what I experience. So I'm right and you're wrong. Because I can only see it through this lens." But the more I realized, the more people saw my own capabilities and they weren't speaking to each other, but they were saying the same things to me.

Amanda Love 32:25

I started to believe it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:25

They're not colluding on this.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:28

That's amazing. So you were seeing the, let's call it, evidence, in a variety of different places, which allowed you to even begin to believe for yourself what all of these other people were seeing.

Amanda Love 32:40

Yes, 100%. It's so hard to hear it and believe it if you don't believe it yourself, but when you continue to hear it from relatively strangers, and they say these things about you, it's because you exude those things, those qualities, and you're probably just not giving yourself enough credit for it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:05

Yeah. And I think that that is, in many ways, very human. I think a lot of people, my observation is that a lot of people experience that. And we're also really good as humans about just focusing on the one part and not necessarily the really positive pieces of evidence. Sometimes it has to hit us from many different people or many different situations before we believe it. So there's that side too.

Amanda Love 33:33

Yep, you're right. You're 100% right. So this move, this reset button that I have done to completely take the opportunity that now we live in a different state and we're making brand new friends, I've used it as an opportunity to really just rebrand who I am and be authentic. And, you know, we talk about authenticity across a lot of different places in the workforce, and I don't know that bring your authentic self to work really means bring your authentic self to work. And I'm trying it on for size, and it really means bring your authentic self to work, and if it doesn't, it's probably not a good fit.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:23

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:15

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 35:21

I love saying the motto, like, "sometimes you have to slow down to speed up." And that truly was what I was doing. I had to slow down for a second to be able to come in with a fresh perspective. Because I don't think if I did that, if I did not do that, I don't think I would have been able to think of some of the potential solutions or directions that I could have gone in.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:43

Sometimes, the hardest part of a career change isn't figuring out the next step. It's trusting yourself enough to take that next step.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:53

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it, and if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player, so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week, until next week. Adios, I'm out.

Charity Von Guiness 00:01

It just became very clear to me the level of unconsciousness that I had been living with and that lack of intentionality throughout my entire history.

Introduction 00:14

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:44

Have you ever looked at your work calendar or to-do list and thought, "I don't want to do one single thing on this entire very long list." You might think this is normal, that you should just put your head down and push through, but actually, if you experience this over and over for a long period of time, it's pretty likely a red flag that you're not working in your strengths, and it's time for a change.

Charity Von Guiness 01:12

You will always have a laundry list of reasons to stay exactly where you are, and your brain is gonna fight to keep you there. You can talk yourself out of anything, 100%.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:25

That's Charity Von Guiness. Charity had been working in the arts for 20 years when she had the realization that although she loved the arts, she did not enjoy the work that she was doing. She felt like she had been unconsciously falling into role after role since she graduated college. Never stopping to consider, "what do I really need to be able to enjoy my career?" That is, until she decided that something had to change. I think you're gonna love this conversation. I want you to pay attention to how Charity grabbed a hold of the reins in her career, envisioned what her unicorn role, or unicorn opportunity could look like, and consciously and energetically made the moves to lasso that unicorn. Here's Charity, taking us back to where her career began.

Charity Von Guiness 02:14

I have always been an avid lover and very passionate about the arts, so that was a natural thing for me to study in school. So in some capacity, over the last 20 years, I have been working in the nonprofit arts space. That was not linear, and it was certainly a bit of a bumpy road along the way, but that has been the majority of my career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:37

When you say working in the arts and non profit space, give me a little bit of context as to what that looks like for people that might not be aware of what that is.

Charity Von Guiness 02:48

Yeah. So most arts organizations are, in fact, non profit. So whether it's something as large as the Metropolitan Museum of Art to something incredibly small arts education wise, it goes into schools. So really runs the gamut of every discipline of art, whether it's performing arts, visual arts, it is really something where people are totally reliant on donors or governmental agencies to fund their operations from day to day.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:18

Very cool. What led you up to this most recent change?

Charity Von Guiness 03:24

Yeah, so in January of 2022, I was just adamant that I could not stay where I was. And what happened was, I did what I typically do, continuing this cycle of just reacting. And I started applying madly to all these jobs. What happened in March was I was flying all around the country giving presentations. I was the final two candidates in a couple different situations, and it was incredibly intense. It was... I was trying to juggle like three different organizational priorities at that moment. And the first week of April, I heard back from those two jobs that I was certain I had in the bag, and they both told me they went with another candidate. I think my family and friends were just responding, "Oh, you must be devastated. Oh, you must..." And I was not devastated, Scott. I was relieved.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:17

What made you relieved in that particular case?

Charity Von Guiness 04:20

I think I knew what was happening in that moment that it was just going to be doing the same thing, just a different organization, and this cycle would just be continuing. So that relief caused me to put on the brakes and just say, "All right, I've got to stop this cycle. I cannot be reactive. I have to do this on purpose." I can't think of another term, but just this level of awareness where it just became very clear to me, the level of unconsciousness that I had been living with and that lack of intentionality throughout my entire history. So I think at that moment, there was relief because I finally felt like I could see this cycle and know what to do to end it. And that gave me a tremendous amount of hope, I will say. So, yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:18

That's fascinating. That is fascinating to me because it allowed you to be able to see the cycle. And I'm also hearing from you that it was much of that previous work to have enough recognition about what you wanted. But what did that hope? Or what did that cycle look like? What were you thinking at that moment? Do you remember back to that point? What were some of the thoughts that were going through your head? What made you recognize that, "Wow, there's hope here. This is fantastic." As opposed to terrible.

Charity Von Guiness 05:51

Yeah. I mean, of course, there was a level of despair to a certain degree, but there was also this, "Hold on a second. I have the power here. I can take this pen back. I can start writing my story. I do not have to be part of outsourcing this." And I think this is a really important question that I had to ask at that point, because we are all serving something, and when you were in service that always requires a measure of struggle and sacrifice. So for me, that looked like me asking myself, "What are you serving?" And the answer to that, Scott, was not my own story. I will tell you that. It was someone else's. So if we are going to be struggling and sacrificing for something, why not let it be what we decided to be. And I think that was really the moment, and again, where there are resources out there, like career coaching that I really needed to get clear. So I think just taking that power back was a huge part of this whole story.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:58

I can definitely appreciate that, and that's much easier to say that you need to take the power back than it is to to actively do that on a day in, day out basis. And I think you've done a really nice job of doing that. And one of the things I wanted to ask you about here was once you had this realization, once you had the recognition that, "hey, this actually could be a wonderful opportunity. This is where I can take that back. This is where I can take the power back. This is where I can move on to whatever the next step might look like, intentionally." What did you believe was possible for you? Did you start out saying, "Hey, this type of role that you're in right now, this type of opportunity is totally where I'm going to go", or was it more a, "I'm not sure exactly what could be possible for me." Help me understand what took place in between.

07:49

Yeah, I think you know when I first started with career coaching, I was adamant that I was not staying in nonprofit work, absolutely adamant. So for me, it was really, I mean, this was all really, really hard, and I am not a very patient person. So just wanting to get this like in motion really quickly, and just trying to hold myself back, just saying, "No, we've got to slow down. You have to slow down." So I started this whole journey off with HTYC thinking not totally outside of my old responsibilities at this position. So I was looking at brand strategy, creative direction, getting back into fashion was another one. And thankfully, I had a lot of connections to people in these areas. And it was just over that first kind of month and a half where I was just going through job after job after job, realizing after talking to people, this was not going to be the right fit for me. This was not giving me the level of authority that I wanted over the creative process and other things. So I think there was definitely a point about a month and a half in where I had gone through several different iterations of what I wanted to do and realizing they were not what I thought they were, and just really getting like, "Oh my god, this is wow. I don't know what I'm going to do here", and living in that place of unknown and uncertainty is so difficult. But let me tell you something, that has been the best leadership training ever because we have to be able to live in the paradox. And just thinking about when we are in this level of activity and frenetic movement, what we are doing is in that either or black and white mindset. And typically, when you're in that mindset, you're going to be over correcting for the wrong problem. So I think getting outside of that and being willing and open to live in that awkward and uncomfortable space of uncertainty was really a powerful lesson for me. And you can't do it every day. These are not things that just happen. I mean, this is a practice. You have to stay on top of it. And certainly, I've had several breakdowns and moments of despair and feeling just hopeless around everything, but I think trying to stay on top of that, and being intentional and showing yourself compassion and grace and not knowing and not having all the answers and not being clear.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:36

Can I read something from your coach that she wrote about one of those periods where you were in doubt?

Charity Von Guiness 10:45

Yeah, absolutely.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:47

Your coach had wrote charity doubted that she would find an ideal role for her. And she was talking about a particular time. She thought that her tatted look would not appeal to people, but they loved her for it, is what we found. And Charity is very well spoken and really into doing the deep work and being a positive leader. And she went on to talk about a couple areas that were really a struggle for you in a couple areas that that you did really, really, very well. At that point in time, what caused you, tell me more about, when you were in doubt that you would find that ideal role?

Charity Von Guiness 10:36

Yeah. I think, and for, obviously, people listening, they can't see what I look like, but I'm a heavily tattooed woman, and I also really pride myself in how I show up and how I dress. I'm really into that. That's kind of creative form of expression for me. And that I know people think like, "Oh, that's not a big deal anymore", but it is. And it has limited me. And so working with Ang on this level of intentionally designing my life, I wanted to, and I just put out there, I said, "I want the way I look, the way I show up to be an asset and not a liability." And my experience from that point had been a liability– the way I looked, the way I spoke, the way I dressed, all of these things were too risky. They were too aggressive or in your face. And yeah, so I think that was really a big thing for me to her point.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:22

What do you think up till that point was causing you to to only focus on the liability side, as opposed to that, you know, who you are and how you represent the outward version of yourself could also be a huge asset and a wonderful thing in the right situation, the right environment, surrounded by the other right people?

Charity Von Guiness 12:46

Yeah, I think for me, I just didn't think that was possible. It wasn't that I was questioning my own value. It was just that I just did not think there was ever going to be a time that someone would appreciate any of these things, or that they would be an asset. And for me, writing out some of my vision around what I wanted. I was writing it the whole time going, "this is never going to happen", being in in leadership, being considered a thought leader, just being in a high visibility position where I can change the narrative around what leadership looks like, and that it's not authoritarian, and we're building these cultures of collective resource and belonging and inclusion. So I think, yeah, I was writing all this, and the whole time in my head, I was like, "Well, this, yeah, this is not gonna happen." And again, I think it goes back to what you so often say about we are in our own way. We make our own limitations. And I think that was case in point where I was just saying, "this is a nice fairy tale" when I was writing my ideal career profile or this vision. So not believing any of this.

Charity Von Guiness 14:45

I think it was really around understanding that whatever people have told you you are too much of, is actually your superpower. So I think for me, I've always been told– you're too energetic, you're too passionate, you talk too much, whatever. And just realizing that... and it was so interesting because, Ang can attest to that, it was literally like this epiphany I had one morning at the gym where I was like, "You know what? My optimism is not stupid and naive. It comes from a place of really wrestling with hard things and how powerful that optimism is." And I remember telling her, "I am so just, I don't know, marginalized or belittled for that aspect of who I am." And you know, just understanding that, no, this is not something that I'm too much of. The world needs more of this. They need more of this undying belief and hope in the future. But from a place of understanding the other side of things and really wrestling with those things. So, yeah, I mean that was an amazing moment when I realized that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:07

Whether we're talking about ink or whether we're talking about something completely different, that is a trend that I've seen over and over again. Or even as we're going through any part of a process, and even we're defining what extraordinary can look like for an individual, especially when we're working on the back end with people like you, there seems to be so much of that doubt that's there. So my question to you Charity is, what caused you to go from, "hey, I'm writing this down, but yeah, right", to begin to believe that it could be a possibility for you?

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:01

I love that. I have tingles. That is so fantastic. And I want to dig into a little bit how you went from that moment to where you're at now, actually being in a role that really is such a better fit, in many different ways. Talk to me about what that process looked like for you. Let's get into the nitty gritty a little bit.

Charity Von Guiness 16:26

I think for me, I really had to go through all of these other things. So I really had to experience being super gung ho about a totally different track of career and these moves, and then going through the whole process of being disappointed about it, because it was not for me, but I had to know those things. I had to know those things to get clear on where I was going. And I think at that moment when I realized where my superpower was, in fact, around these things that I usually get so maligned about, so to speak, it just became really clear to me in that moment that, you know what, I don't have to do something drastic. I don't have to throw the baby out with the bath water, so to speak, with non profits. And this opportunity arose, and I'll tell you, I mean, when they reached out to me, I was like, "well, that's sweet." I mean, they don't know what I look like. And so I had zero expectations around anything. And I certainly did not think I was like, they're gonna see me and know, like, well, we can't put her in a leadership position. And the funny thing was, in fact, too, I was still so, I think a little trepidacious about nonprofit work, that the week before my interview, I actually texted Ang, and I was like, "I'm gonna cancel this. I don't think this is the way I should go." And I was about to do that, and she told me, "Do not do that. Just go ahead with the interview. Just be curious. Just show up as yourself, as Charity." And that's exactly what I did. And within two hours after that interview, they had written me and said, "We need to fly you out here." And I was like, "What?" Like I was in a total state of shock. And so going through this experience with this whole interview process fear, and really meeting people and board members and nonprofit that has really abundant thinking that is not enthralled with this scarcity mindset, this entire situation has just blasted through so many erroneous beliefs that I had around myself, nonprofit where everything. So I think, and being here and just having people be so validating and supporting around who I am, about how I show up, about that those things were what they wanted, and they wanted my personal brand that I had built. I mean, I can't imagine, like, who could imagine a better place to be in with that level of support and acknowledgement?

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:19

Have you ever had that experience prior to this?

Charity Von Guiness 19:22

Absolutely not. No, absolutely not. So I think all of our mothers think we're fantastic. But you know, beyond that, I definitely, I don't feel like have been on the receiving end of someone expressing where they thought I had value. So that's really been had to come from inside of me to realize my own value. So and again, this is important to say, I think once you realize that, then everyone else realizes it around you. So case in point certainly with this. But I mean, this entire experience has been phenomenal. And again, getting really specific and clear on those intentions. And that is what... I mean, if you read my ideal career profile, everything is like, I was like, I can look out the window and see mountains. I'm looking out my window right now and see mountains. I mean, down to that level of granularity. So I think, yeah, I mean, this has just been an incredible experience. But again, we have to be honest, the moment I said yes to this job, things got real hard. Things got real real hard. So I think really talking about the ups and downs. I mean, this is an absolute emotional roller coaster. And every step of the way, I have been talking myself out of doing these things, and I think we have to be super aware of that. You will always have a laundry list of reasons to stay exactly where you are, and your brain is going to fight to keep you there. You can talk yourself out of anything, 100%.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:05

We and our brains are fantastic at self preservation, even if it is truly not good for us in the long run. And to your point, I do see, over and over again we can, we can talk ourselves out of just about anything that could potentially be amazing and have wonderful justifications for it. That said, I appreciate you pointing that out, that even when you said 'yes' to this opportunity and even when you had wonderful evidence that it lined up well with your ideal career profile, you're still experiencing challenges. And that's something we haven't talked a lot about on the show, that even when you get to that point, even when you have that opportunity, what we'll often call a unicorn opportunity, one that we don't necessarily believe is real, or that other people don't believe it's real, even when we get to that point, it doesn't automatically mean that everything is, I don't know, to keep with our unicorn theme, I guess, like rainbows and butterflies and everything else, and it introduces new challenges, new problems, new growth in so many different ways. And I appreciate you pointing that out. That doesn't mean that everything is rosy, it means that you get better problems and better challenges and ones that are more aligned to you that are more worthwhile. So what advice would you give to those people who are thinking about making the type of change that you did? Put yourself way back here to January of 2022, where you're starting to have that realization, and you're starting to recognize that you needed a change. What advice would you give to people in that moment, that place?

Charity Von Guiness 22:53

I think you really need to get clear about what you need and identifying when something doesn't feel right, I think just acknowledging when you're feeling out of alignment with what you're doing. And I think just getting real aware of the day to day and what's working and what's not, and yeah, and in regards to these needs, just knowing when you need support and help and guidance around some of these things, because it is not easy. And in my situation, I'm moving halfway across the country, so yeah, I mean there's just a lot, and I think you need to be prepared, not only for talking yourself out of things, but also all of those old stories and narratives and insecurities that I have had, they've all come up again. But this time, I'm able to say, "Okay, I see you. I know what you're trying to do here", and I'm much better able to manage those thoughts and feelings and stories. So I think that's two really big things, but otherwise, you have to take action. And for me, this has been... I'm a very action oriented person anyway, but you know, I have taken enormous risks over the last few months, and I've done them terrified. I've done them absolutely terrified. I have done them not knowing where things were going to go, sometimes anticipating the worst, of course, that's just where we go. So yeah, I think those are real big things through this process.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:39

Let me read you something else that your coach wrote really quick because I think you did a great job taking action. And she did too. She said, "What Charity did well was do the deeper work to envision what she really wanted, and if she saw an opportunity she was curious about, she just went after it. She took action when she didn't feel 100% ready and was crazy nervous, but she did it anyway." So here's my question, you are more action oriented, but I'm curious what helps you to take action even when you're crazy nervous, or even when you don't feel good about it, even when you're, as you said, terrified?

Charity Von Guiness 25:15

Yeah, I think, you know, we just keep going back to a lot of this harder work and these habits. And I think building in this level of conditioning where you're doing mental conditioning, skills conditioning, physical conditioning, because this requires such a high level of resilience, and part of that is just being able to trust yourself. Just trust yourself that no matter what happens, you're going to figure it out. And I think for me, just continually reminding myself, "Just do the thing. You're going to figure it out whatever happens." And I think that was such a huge part of coaching as well. And Ang's position is just having someone because those doubts come in, those stories come in, and you start shrinking, you start shrinking back again and making yourself small and going back to that place. And I think having Ang there to just say, "No, you don't. You're playing big now. You're not going back there. That level of accountability and breaking through those cycles of thoughts was huge.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:25

Well, I appreciate you sharing and I appreciate you taking us through your story. You did some amazing work here. How does this feel in this moment? I'm super curious.

Charity Von Guiness 26:36

You know, I go through cycles of having to pinch myself because I'm like, "how did this just happen?" And then also just feeling like, of course, but like this feels totally normal, because it feels so right. But then you also have to recognize how wild this has been, and that it is absolutely incredible that I am where I am. So, yeah, it's kind of both and this paradoxical leadership we have to live in. So...

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:09

I feel like the story of my life, you talked about living in the, what I would call the gray area, the non black and white, and this paradoxical type living. And I feel like that's really where, not to use the cliche in here, but I feel like that's really where the magic happens in so many different ways, and that's certainly where it seems to have happened for you. Anything else you want to share?

Charity Von Guiness 27:38

Yeah, I think there's a couple different things that really helped me take the pressure off myself in those situations, because I think we all just want those answers right away. And the first one is actually a quote from Malcolm Gladwell from a lecture I was in with him, and he said, you know, "Our job is not to come up with the ideas. Our job is to find them." And for me, that took so much of the onus off of myself, where I just had to be open, I just had to be aware, I just had to be curious. The answers were already there. I just needed to find them. And that was, wow, such, such a huge relief. And just being able to remind myself of that, and I think, you know, to a huge factor was, for me, stoic philosophy is all about the obstacle is the way. So those challenges, those are the way forward. They're not pushing you back. And that is really how we have to define success. It's not about making mistakes. We're all going to make mistakes. It's about getting up and then just learning from it and moving forward and making something fantastic of it. I'm saying all this stuff now. When you're in it, it's super hard. I'm not going to deny that. And there are definitely moments that I had just total breakdowns. But, you know, I think those are really important concepts to absorb, that you don't have to put that pressure on yourself to find all the answers and get clear on everything. They're out there. You have to trust that they're out there and you will find them when you're ready to find them. So I think, yeah, I would just encourage people and our potential is always greater than the challenge that we're facing. We have to believe that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:35

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:28

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 30:33

I am a creature of habit, and I like to do the same things all the time, but it was a big realization for me this year, is that if we just keep doing the same things all the time, we will only continue getting those same results that sometimes we have to... and we have to be able to recognize those triggers when we're ready to move on to make things move bigger.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:52

Over the past few years, five years in particular, we've had one episode that got so much positive feedback, and we did it year after year after year, and then didn't do one last year. But back by popular demand is another one of the exact same episodes where I get to bring on Alyssa, my wife, and we discuss our goals from the previous year.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:17

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it, and if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player, so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week, until next week. Adios, I'm out.