258: Why You Don’t Even Know Perfectionism Is Holding You Back

Caroline Adams 00:02
The prospect of trying something new that, understandably, you might not be that good at, because you're a beginner. It's, at best, really uncomfortable for us, and at worst, the fear of failure prevents us from even taking those steps.

Introduction 00:23
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:46
Welcome to the Happen To Your Career podcast. I'm Scott Anthony Barlow. This is the show where we share stories of how high achievers find career happiness and meaning. Today, we're after answering the question. But not just any question. How can you avoid perfectionism? Especially if you don't even realize that you're acting perfectionistic plus what even is perfectionism?

Caroline Adams 01:14
Striving for an unattainable ideal, and then beating yourself up for not reaching said unattainable ideal. It's an impossible situation that we set ourselves up for and then punish ourselves for not achieving.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:32
That's Caroline Adams. She works with us as a coach on team Happen To Your Career, and she's done more than a few things. By the way, you can go back and listen to her entire story and her entire other career changes she's made back in happentoyourcareer.com/223. That's Episode 223. And find out all kinds of stuff about Caroline. She's awesome.

Cesar Ponce de Leon 02:02
It was stopping me from making that career change. I was paralysed into my situation.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:08
Meet Cesar. He was getting frustrated trying to figure out the right career on his own.

Cesar Ponce de Leon 02:12
The fact that I was applying to a whole bunch of job boards and getting no responses was very frustrating to me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:19
Take a listen for Cesar's story later on in the episode to learn how he finally figured out what fits him.

Cesar Ponce de Leon 02:26
I transition into another career completely different to what I did in an industry that I'm passionate about.

Caroline Adams 02:39
And what's interesting, and we'll get into some examples today, but I think what is sometimes so insidious about it is that people don't recognize it as such, a lot of people don't identify, self identify as perfectionist. So we'll talk today, not only about how to recognize some of the ways that it shows up, or even share some examples about where we think we've beaten this perfectionism thing, and it shows up again. So we'll talk through some tools, but I think it's a really interesting phenomenon. And just a tidbit from my own personal experience, probably in the last six months, the two times I've felt the most anxious are: number one, when I was writing a blog post about perfectionism. And number two, when I was preparing for this podcast on perfectionism. So I share that because even just, you know, thinking about the things that lead to perfectionism in my own experiences with it, it's just such a powerful force. And that's what we want to do today is just really shed some light on it, and help people work through it in their career change.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:44
Yeah, absolutely. And part of the reason that we got onto this topic for this purpose, as well, was because we had a listener that had sent in an email saying, "Hey, I haven't heard anything about this on the podcast. Can you talk about it on the podcast? I need some answers. I must have some answers." What's really interesting, just what you said about, we don't always recognize where perfectionism is coming into play. Then this person said the exact same thing. Well, and tell you what, let me just read part of her question here. She said, "Over the last several months I've been trying to move..." And this, by the way, is Lauren. Lauren sent us a note that said, "Over the last several months, I've been trying to move from the analysis paralysis and planning mode into Action Jackson" as she calls it "using some of the techniques HTYC recommends about connecting with people or people who can help you or hire you." So she goes on to say that she's developed top 10 lists of companies, organizations, people she admires in different areas, and she has sent out a bunch of different emails and in some cases, had some initially very positive results. But then she goes on to say, "Hey, I had a shameful confession." And I don't think it's shameful, but we'll get to that in just a minute. "I tend to drop the ball after the initial outreach. It's like the anxiety overtakes me. And I want to craft the perfect reply, or create some really amazing project to be able to share with them, and I end up actually doing nothing. And it's happened as many as three, four times in recent months." And I think this is a problem that everybody struggles with to different degrees. So we said, we looked at that and said, "Okay, let's figure out how do we get some answers to that question for people that are in that exact same place." That's what we hope to do. That is our entire plan. So tell me your initial thoughts on perfectionism.

Caroline Adams 05:44
Let's start with my definition, which is striving for an unattainable ideal, and then beating yourself up for not reaching said unattainable ideal. It's an impossible situation that we set ourselves up for and then punish ourselves for not achieving. And this has really been top of mind for me recently, because not too long ago, there was a paper published in psychological bulletin that was focused on millennials, and it was talking about the fact that millennials are more prone to perfectionism than previous generations. And then it linked that rise in perfectionism, to a rise in serious mental health consequences. And so we're not talking about mental health today, we're talking about career change. But the reason I mentioned it is to point out that this is really pervasive and it is taking over and not to get too far in the weeds of the paper. But one of the things they talk about is not just the perfectionism that we place on ourselves, personally, internally focused perfectionism, with the rise of social media and other ways that we're very visible, and other people are actually holding us to the same ideals, whether real or perceived. So it's a really important topic to talk about.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:06
I think it's fascinating. Just some of the changes in our environment today have impacted something like perfectionism and all of the things that can happen when we are not cognizant of it and fall into that trap on an ongoing basis. So this is intended to be a proactive approach to that. Okay, bad things will happen if you don't do something about it, not to scare people or anything else along those lines. But we want to say, "Okay, if we know that, how do we do something about it now?" So here's what I'm curious about, though, we work a lot with high performers and height achievers, and other people that have a track record of success in one area of their life or another, might not always be their career, sometimes it's other areas too, health, financial, etc. But those people often are some of the same people that have the highest degrees of perfectionism going on. Sometimes they recognize it, many other times they don't. So where does this actually show up? And why do you think high achievers, in particular, high performers, in particular, are so susceptible to this?

Caroline Adams 08:15
I'm so glad you asked the question. It's such a fascinating space for me to think about. So the reason I think that high achievers can be so susceptible is that oftentimes we think we're just being conscientious. And we've probably been rewarded for that conscientiousness, as you said, maybe not just in our career, but probably way back from the time we were children. And we're used to quote unquote, winning, or quote, unquote, succeeding. And so when you're in this environment, the prospect of trying something new that, understandably, you might not be that good at, because you're a beginner. It's, at best, really uncomfortable for us, and at worst, the fear of failure prevents us from even taking those steps. And really, that's what we want to prevent is that people stay stuck because they don't want to get out of that bubble. And where I think conscientiousness differs from perfection is that we're perfection, we're tying our self worth to outcome. So it's not just about winning or losing, it's about I am a winner, or I am a loser. And further, because we self-identify as high achievers, we need to keep this cycle of achievement going so that we can stay a winner. And so it just becomes this vicious cycle of, "wow, I really hope I perform and there's only one right answer and what is this going to say about me if I don't get it right." So it's a lot of pressure that we put on ourselves to do this. We see this come up a lot of different ways, but one area that we see this coming up with people that we first interact with them, whether they're listeners or people new to CCB, is they come to us and they say, "I have the ideal already. I have the quote unquote, perfect job, you know, I got have a good paycheck, I'm getting promoted, I'm recognized for my talents. But I don't want it. I'm not happy. And no one understands why I'm not happy." And so they start to question what they really want and start to think that they're crazy. And so a lot of times our initial engagements are when they're figuring out their signature strengths, or their ideal career profile, we'll go through it, they'll realize that, no, they are the best positioned people to know what they want. And they just need that validation that they're not crazy, because, you know, especially when it's something that deviates from the status quo. So I think that's a very salient example for people of where they get caught up, it's, kind of, a meta version of perfectionism, not only thinking that there's one right way to do things, but especially when they're being told that they already have the perfect thing. Well, why would you rock the boat? Why would you want something different?

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:05
Well, this compounds too, so... you become used to being able to achieve and you become used to winning or succeeding, which then makes it more difficult in some ways, too, if you can't see what the pathway is, want to go down that pathway and embark on that particular journey, that particular side journey, if I don't know where it's going to end up, because I'm used to winning, I'm used to that type of feedback, I'm used to being in that position. So I don't need... and it feels good, right? So I don't want to go down that other pathway. And then on top of it, they're being told that they're crazy, or at least they perceive that they're being told they're crazy from, you know, family, or friends or other people looking in. And they're trying to intentionally or unintentionally maintain some of those perceptions, too. But that's in conflict with what they really want. So that starts to stack on one another, in some ways. So how else does this show up in career change? Is there any other ways that we see this happen?

Caroline Adams 12:05
Yeah, so I think a lot of times, it's focused on a particular outcome. So this ideal outcome, I describe it as there's a single correct path surrounded by an ocean of hot lava. So everywhere around me, there is danger in destruction, and everyone's on the sidelines, you know, on the volcano, I guess, watching you and judging you, and you fear that, you know, just the wrong mid step, you're in the hot lava. And so when you're in that scenario, it's impossible to take action. But here's the problem with that, when you don't take action in that metaphor, you're still in an ocean of hot lava. And now you're not taking steps to get yourself out of it. You're not learning, you're not growing, you're not being vulnerable. And we all know that it's in those circumstances where we're most uncomfortable, and we're most challenged, that we learn about what it is that's important to us and what it is that we want in life. And so it's really important to not only lean in, which we'll talk about, too, some of those uncomfortable experiences, but look for the multiple paths. So there's not just one path, there's not just one ideal outcome.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:21
What about the helicopter airlift in from the hot lava? So it sounds like a really bad trip to, I don't know, Maui gone very, very wrong, along those lines. That's really interesting, though, because that creates a very compelling visual for what does really happen in reality, and maybe we're not thinking it's hot lava all the time, but it is... those people that are like, "Hey, you've already got a good situation, why would you do anything different?" Or, you know, it's those people that are in your job that you're looking at going, "I actually really don't want my boss's job. And I don't know what it is that I do want. So I kind of feel stuck in all other kinds of situations where it manifests itself." I know you and I started talking about this earlier. But I am curious, how you see this show up differently in terms of, we started... before we hit the record button, having a conversation about, how this looks differently, and how the sounds differently, and even men versus women, and realize that hey, there's actually some distinctions here, too, and how that shows up. So I'm curious your opinion on that since we didn't even get to have the full conversation earlier.

Caroline Adams 14:27
Yeah, so what I will start with is by saying that I have this conversation about perfectionism, and it's variations with women all the time, a lot of times directly, but I often see the pattern show up and so we get on to it indirectly. We talk about things like people pleasing, that comes up a lot with women. I rarely discuss it and call it perfectionism with men. And so one of the things I'd actually like to hear from you, because I feel like you're uniquely positioned to talk about men and their experience with perfectionism, you know, a different perspective than I do. I'm interested how it shows up with them. But I think with women, a lot of times they will either talk about it as conscientiousness, right? And so they'll frame it that way, they'll talk about it in terms of people pleasing, they will talk about in terms of permission seeking. And I think a lot of times, that's where doing the right thing, or what family wants them to do. So those sorts of things start to come up a lot in my conversations. Tell me about with your conversations, and particularly your conversations with men, I'm fascinated.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:38
Yeah, I absolutely hear a lot of the same vocalizations, as what you just said, when I'm speaking with women, and we're going to overgeneralize her a little bit. Because this doesn't hold true 100% of the time, but in general, I find that women are more aware of it than what I see men to be, and I'll speak as a man, a lot of times we are less aware of it. And I would say even identify less with the word perfectionism as a whole. I would also say to that, the other thing that I observe is, as men where it shows up, and we don't even realize sometimes where it shows up. And I feel like I need to always have the answer. I feel like I need to have the solution. I feel like I need to be able to provide that. And if I don't, in some ways, it feels wrong or inept, or another word is escaping me right now. But that's a way in which perfection shows up. But I don't know that if we weren't talking about it. I don't know that I would call that perfectionism even though it is, even though it is.

Caroline Adams 16:42
And I'm so glad that we have this conversation because I think there are a lot of people, men and women, regardless how they identify, that think they've actually conquered it or, you know, I'm done with that whole perfectionism thing that's beyond me, or they don't recognize it as perfectionism as such. So hopefully, when we start talking about these examples, people will start to identify and Jackie was just weighing in on some of the ways when I was mentioning permission seeking and people pleasing. Certainly, those sorts of things come up. And so maybe some of those terms are more familiar to people. And that's a form of perfectionism. Because you're, again, it's about there's this one ideal that is the right way, and that's the only way to do these things. So thank you, Jackie, for sharing that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:30
Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so you mentioned these examples, and you mentioned that there's actually ways to do something about this. So I'd love to talk about those specifically. And in fact, we've identified six different ways that you can begin applying, like now, like not yesterday, but pretty close to yesterday, as soon as possible. Because really, just like you talked about with the hot lava, the enemy of perfectionism, or the way to move through it, is to be able to gain motion, gain momentum, which means you have to miraculously or unmiraculously move through all of the head games that really is causing that set of perfectionism. So let's talk about some examples of where this comes up. And then how we can handle those particular places where we do get caught up. What is example number one, and what is way number one that you can handle it here?

Caroline Adams 18:23
Yeah, so example number one we like to call, “bring awareness to your ideals” so you can punch them in the face. And that sounds very violent. Maybe we're a little too punchy, as we were coming up with these. But the idea behind it is that, again, a lot of times with perfectionism, there's an ideal that you've created behind it. And the surest way to start unpacking is to start asking yourself questions about, "Why are the stakes so high? And why do I think that there's only one way to do it?" And with ideals, a lot of times, it's because there's a particularly salient example of what we think something should look like, what, you know, someone who's out there, who's successful, how they're doing it, or how we think we need to act. One of the ways we see this commonly show up, which you alluded to a little bit before, is people will come to me and say, "Well, my boss is grooming me to take over her role. And I would love to do this role, but she has X years of experience, or she has this expertise, and I don't have that." And so that's an example of you've created this ideal of, well, this is the only way to do this rule. And if you can't live up to that, then you can't do that. And so the idea that I want people to start embracing as well, what would you bring to it and especially if you bring something different, because everything you do is unique and special, that might actually be the thing that turns the organization on its head in a good way. So to think about it through that lens and really start asking yourself questions about, why you think that there's only one way to do it or, like I said, the stakes are so high.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:11
First of all, I was... haven't thought about it this way before. But I was thinking about our title and what we call this. And as I think about perfectionism in the areas that stopped me, it really almost is like this big bad bully in some way that is really stopping me from getting to where I want to go. I'm on the playground, I want to go down the slide, and this person is telling me, who's much, much bigger than me, by the way, that I can't go down the slide. And there's nothing that is going to move this person out of the way, this bully out of the way. Unless you do something that is drastic, otherwise, you don't get to go down the slide. And I really think that it does require doing something drastic in some way to be able to take it and look at it for what it really is. Otherwise, we hold it so high, like, "Oh my goodness, this person is not going to let me" and all of these excuses pop up and everything like that. And we don't recognize when we're in that moment that they are excuses. So too brutal to bring that awareness. You do, kind of, have to punch it in the face of that. And I love your concept of taking the ideal and bringing it down to size, that fits for me. And if you don't recognize it for what it is, there's really nothing that you can do about it too.

Caroline Adams 20:19
Yeah, knock it off that pedestal smash, whatever metaphor works for you, whether it's the bully, not letting you go down the slide, or probably not punching it in the face. But smashing that ideal and really holding yourself to your own standard rather than a made up standard that someone else has set for you just by the nature that they were there first.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:53
Yeah, absolutely. What's the next one here? This is one of my favorites.

Caroline Adams 21:58
This is my... I have to say this is my favorite. So I call this Career Wabi Sabi. So Wabi Sabi is a Japanese philosophy, it values imperfection, impermanence, and incompleteness, and it will not be able to do it justice in the short time we have today. So I encourage you to read more about it, because it is really a beautiful philosophy that has all sorts of applications beyond your career. I actually first came to it through design world. But the idea here applied to your career is to celebrate those goofy, quirky, unique things about yourself, and your experience, and to make them cornerstones of your career. Oftentimes, we want to sweep those things under the rug, we want to downplay them, really, what we should be doing is not should be doing. But I think there's an opportunity there to use those things to our advantage, because they really set us apart in a beautiful way. So the idea is that your career experiences, good and bad, make you more interesting, and thus more valuable. So whether it's quirks, whether it's, you know, that path that you took that now you're, kind of, pivoting and taking in a different direction, it's using those to your advantage, and to bring it home... there's someone I'm working with now, she wants, speaking of pursuing, a career as a COO. And we were talking about how to position that. And she started talking about her degree in accounting in her early years that she was in that space. And she was saying, "Oh, how do I downplay this? You know, I would never mention this. Because I don't want people to take me out of the running." And what we arrived at is, "No, absolutely. Use that experience, and use those strengths and the things that you like about accounting and the things that make you good at accounting, apply those to how you would run that COO role, because those are unique and special, and they will set you apart and will be able to bring those things to a COO role. And the fact that you have that background actually brings a unique lens to that experience." And so I think a lot of times people will look at seemingly disparate things in their career as disconnected and so they'll want to sweep them under the rug or downplay them, and, really, I encourage people to bring them forward. And not just with experiences, but also with those quirks, like I said, even those quote unquote, bad experiences, because that's where we learn and grow. And so just to give another metaphor, because we seem to be coming up with a lot of ones, a lot of metaphors today.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:31
A lot of metaphors. Keep 'em coming.

Caroline Adams 24:33
There's an art form called Kintsugi, and that's oftentimes closely related to Wabi Sabi. And the idea is that you repair pottery, and you fill the cracks with gold, and other precious metals. So the idea is that not only are you bringing this broken thing back to hold, but now the cracks are the most beautiful thing about the pot. And actually, when I was doing some research on Wikipedia, when this first came out, people were so intrigued by the idea, they were purposely smashing pottery so they could come and... So I'm not saying go out and purposely break your career, I'm not advocating that. But the idea is, if you think about this as applied to your career, it really shifts how you think about it and looking at those experiences that were maybe, kind of, painful, definitely, probably learning experiences and the things that your initial instinct would be to downplay. Well, how can you flip them in a way that they become the goal, they become the thing that showcases you to make you different and set you apart? And embrace those imperfections rather than trying to, you know, pass over them very quickly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:41
That's super interesting. I haven't heard... What did you call that again? Say it one more time.

Caroline Adams 25:46
Kintsugi. I hope I'm pronouncing it correctly, Kintsugi.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:49
It sounds good to me, I have no idea. We can talk about that here in just a second, too. But that is really interesting. And as I think about my own experiences, too, that's actually how I got to starting this company in the first place. The whole reason, all of the set of events that led to me, you know, getting a bunch of promotions, and even setting on the quest to figure out like, "How do I find work that I love, that pays well for myself? And how do I do all these things was because I got fired?" Which was incredibly painful at the time. It really was. But now I found that had that not happened, it would not have set all these other things in motions, but, really, now more so than anything else, it's an asset, rather than something to be ashamed of. And, yeah, you don't have one without the other. And one makes the other much more attractive. And honestly, just more interesting, too. Nobody really likes... we all think we have to have perfection, but nobody really actually likes perfection.

Caroline Adams 26:48
It's boring. What makes the better story to tell your friends when you're out. It's not like I rose to prominence, and it was easy, the end. It was really horribly stupid thing. And that's my whole, kind of, writing repertoire is sharing stories about firmly, cringe-worthy and, you know, dumb things that I've done along the way, because it's interesting, and you grow from it. Right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:14
Absolutely. And we all have them too. Yes. The surest way to make your friends despise you is be out with them and talk about how everything is perfect.

Caroline Adams 27:24
No problems.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:26
Okay, so what's the next one here?

Caroline Adams 27:29
Yeah, so we call this one “Stair Steps, Not Trampolines”. And we see this one all the time with high achievers. High achievers tend to want to find that trampoline, and bounce straight off that trampoline to the end, perfect results. So while with that technique, you might fall into something, literally fall, into something more quickly, it's not necessarily going to be the best fit for you. And so what we try to encourage is this idea of stair steps and thinking about those steps, not as right or wrong, good or bad, but an opportunity to get closer to what you want. And we really make a mistake when we try to jump straight to the end without doing some of the work and taking those interim steps. All you need to worry about is the next step. I think that's another way that people kind of shut themselves down is because they can't see that ultimate outcome, they just stopped taking steps. And anyone who's been through this process, or maybe even those that are in the middle, understand the value of those steps, even if you don't know where they're leading. And one example where we see this come up is, so let's say, someone has decided as they define their ideal career profile that they want to work in a particular industry or work for a particular organization, and then somehow throughout the process, they realize, "Hmm, maybe this isn't the best fit. It's not what I wanted, after all." So sometimes people say, "Ugh, back to square one. Guess I'm right back where I started from. Guess I have to start over from scratch." Not at all, exactly, thank goodness, you've now gotten this valuable information. Whereas had you not gotten that information and gotten into that job or industry, you probably won't be that happy. And so look at it from the perspective of, well, now I've taken another step closer to the job that's going to be a better fit to me and it might take a little bit longer, but I'm going to be much happier, and when you think about it in terms of time, actually, so let's say, you catapult yourself or bounced yourself, I guess, from the trampoline sooner into a job you hate, well, you haven't really cut down the time because now you have to start the process over again. Whereas if you would have just kept, you know, kept taking steps and incrementally moved closer towards your goal, we actually find that that shortens the time to the career that's right for people, so you're not starting over, you just need to keep moving and just pivot every now.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:09
Yeah, it makes me think of Eric Murphy's story, which if you go back and listen to Episode 128, which is way back into the archives, you know, he came to us and very much wanting, one of the things he told me back then was, "Scott, I'm pretty sure that solar technology is where I want to be. I'm like 80% sure that that is where I should be going." So this, you know, wasn't our first rodeo, and realized, like, "Okay, that's fantastic. Let's do this upfront work. And if that still indicates that that's where a direction you should be heading, awesome. But let's also test it out at the same time." And he went through and that he experienced that exact same thing that you just described, he went through and realize, "Oh, crap! This isn't where I want to be. Like, this is actually the opposite of where I want to be. And it's pretty unlikely that in this particular industry, I'm really going to find what I want and what I need to have more happiness more often in my career." And after that, he really, kind of, had two options at that point, he could have looked at that as "Oh, mother, I guess I'm back at square one." But instead, really what that did, is it allowed him that doing that work allowed him to be able to move to the next step, and created the path forward. Because had he not done that, he'd still be looking for that trampoline as to how to get there. And if he got there, he probably would have... he's a pretty loyal guy, he probably would have spent two years in that company or that role, and then started over again and been extra frustrated. Yeah, no good, right?

Caroline Adams 31:36
Yeah, that's what happens. People have that "Oh, crap!" realization, but usually after they're already in the job, and now have to feel compelled to, this is a whole other podcast topic, but feel compelled to stay there for a significant period of time, for various reasons. So yeah, I was actually thinking of Eric as I was speaking about that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:01
What's our next one, then?

Caroline Adams 32:03
So the next one we call "Reframe, Not Retreat". So the idea here, as we've laid out is that a lot of times, we just make the stakes so darn high, whether it's because of these ideals, or because it's something really, really wants, but we don't even get started. And so we start retreating, before we've even taken those steps that we were talking about. So the idea is to reframe your next action, and use what works best for you. But some ways are look at it as an experiment, look at it as an opportunity to get some feedback for yourself, look at it as an opportunity to do research and find out more about the thing you're interested in, find out about the person sitting across from you and what their big pain points are. And where this tends to show up for people, and shows up a lot of places, but one common place is that as people start to reach out to build relationships, usually one of two things happens: either because a lot of times when they're reaching out for these relationships with someone they don't know. So they're so unsure of where the conversation is going to go, again, focused on that outcome, like, "where am I going with this?" that they stop, and so they hesitate even having the conversation or they fast forward to the end result they think is going to happen, which is, "This person is going to offer me a job which I know I don't want and it's not going to make me happy" and goes on and on and on. So the idea is to lower the stakes. So whatever the step is, whether it's having a conversation, whether it's, you know, working to figure out what your ideal career profile is, or your strengths, you know, find a way in that lowers the stakes, and dare I say make it fun. You know...

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:53
Dare you, how dare you.

Caroline Adams 33:54
I know! We make this stuff so unfun and so unpleasant for ourselves. And so the idea is, you know, just making it, finding a way in that works for you, that just makes it about the thing and not where this is going to go and really lowering your expectations even about where it's going to go, so you can just get started and not retreat.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:16
That's an interesting one. I actually struggle with that one a lot of times, as well, to the point where Alyssa, my wife, knows this and I will get so focused on a particular goal or particular deadline or accomplishment or something else along those lines, and I actually enjoy the vast majority of what I get to do. But sometimes I'll get very achievement focused and forget to make it fun along the way. So she very consistently has been my reminder, like, she'll, kind of, stopped me out the door before I walk into the office or whatever and be like, "Hey, have fun." But we literally have to, like, build that way if we are not intentional, if she's not there actively reminding that and if that is not a continuous reminder in my life, then I forget. And then I go back to some of those forms of perfectionism that we talked about.

Caroline Adams 35:10
Yeah, I think that's so important, actually, to spend a minute there is that we forget that this is something that we want. We forget that taking those steps to get to that dream career, we want that. We are choosing to do this. And so how can we reconnect wit that idea whether it's fun, or learning or growth, again, however you want to frame it, I think it's important to remember, like, this is taking us to somewhere good that we want to go.

Cesar Ponce de Leon 35:42
I was burned out, you know, I realized that I was actually following the wrong things, the wrong intentions. I wanted out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:50
Cesar was transitioning from the law industry to a completely different field.

Cesar Ponce de Leon 35:56
That I wanted to change, and I tried to do the process myself. You know, the fact that I was applying to a whole bunch of job boards, and getting no responses was very frustrating to me to get that one interview, I blew it because I wasn't prepared.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:11
He turned to HTYC's Career Change Bootcamp to get over the frustration and take the right first step.

Cesar Ponce de Leon 36:16
You helped me first and foremost, to get over my mental barriers. You helped me confirm my strengths that I may have known before, but it was come to that assurance that these are my strengths. And I need to continue a path where I can utilize my strengths to the full potential.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:37
These are the things he learned out of the bootcamp to take action, and be noticed what he was great at.

Cesar Ponce de Leon 36:43
We're thinking of ideas that I can do, to be able to establish, and hence, build relationships, and stand out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:52
Congratulations to Cesar on finding work that he loves. If you also want to find that fulfilling career that lights you up and gives you purpose, find out how Career Change Bootcamp can help you do this step by step to not just understand what it is, but also actually make the transition. Go to happentoyourcareer.com and click on career change bootcamp to apply or learn more.

Cesar Ponce de Leon 37:16
It's a process and Scott has the career change experience. And he's going to give you a lot of great insights on how that works.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:25
I can't remember who said it, but geez, it's totally escaping me. And I'm gonna butcher it a little bit. But it resonated so much with me that I feel like it's worthwhile to tell it here. But somewhere along the way, over the last couple of years, I read something about the author was making it a point to acknowledge that, "Look, life is a series of moments all strung together." So if you're after a particular thing, like when you get to that thing, it's like one moment, it is one moment, and then there's everything else in between. So if you're going after, and everything you're doing is just for that one moment, that means like 99.9% of your life is not going to be particularly fun or not particularly enjoyable or not particularly valuable to you, because you're entirely focused on those itsy bitsy pieces. So yeah, I don't know, we enjoyed the journey all the time, and things like that, but it's difficult. And I think that the perspective that you mentioned earlier, is a much better approach than just telling people, "hey, enjoy the journey." That's like showing people the water while they're drowning a little bit.

Caroline Adams 38:33
I think that's true. Yeah, it's easy to say when you've already reached the destination, right to back and say to someone else, enjoy the journey. But when you're in it, I had a former boss that used to say that all the time, and at that time in my career, I would hear the words, but I just could not... "What are you talking about? Enjoy the journey? This journey is otter and sheer torture." So...

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:57
You don't know what my journey is like.

Caroline Adams 38:59
Exactly. But I think the point you made is a great one, which is, again, we just said we didn't want to talk about enjoying the journey. But in that idea, once you get to that dream job, or that hope, that outcome, whatever it is, it doesn't mean that you're done. The idea, especially, if you make yourself miserable on the way to get there, but there's just going to be another destination after that and another destination after that. So the idea of just building towards something and improving with each step as you... or each move as you go forward, I think is a much more manageable way to think about it or enhancing each move that you make as you...

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:44
Or more enjoyable.

Caroline Adams 39:47
Yes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:48
Okay, so I absolutely love that. What is our next example and next opportunity to work with perfectionism rather than against it here?

Caroline Adams 39:58
Yes. So the next one is "Not All About You".

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:02
Whoa, whoa, whoa... Hold on. Are you sure?

Caroline Adams 40:06
It is not you, Scott. But no, it's not all about you. And the idea behind this one is, we all have struggles, right? So maybe you're having an interview where you had an interview that didn't go as you had totally planned it in your head. Or maybe you're struggling to really figure out what it is that you want. Those things say nothing about who you are. It's just the thing. And I think oftentimes we get confused with those steps that we're taking on the journey, or what happens along the journey. We confuse them and make them mean something about who we are. And mostly it's not good. Mostly, it's like, I'm not good enough, or I'm too old, or I'm too young, or I'm not smart enough, you know, it's not like that. Exactly. And so where I think this starts to really go wrong, is when people start to second guess what they want, right? And so it's really important to separate the things that happen on the journey from the person that's taking the journey. I know, we just said we weren't going to talk about the journey, and now...

Scott Anthony Barlow 41:15
Journey is working its way in here a lot. How did we do that? Manifestation. Brought it up. Now, I opened the cap, and...

Caroline Adams 41:24
Right now, I'm gonna say is in every example it's in the end of the podcast, thank you for planting that. But really, the idea is that, you know, it really, those bad things are separate from yourself. And so stop short of second guessing whether you are cut out for this, or whether this is the right thing. If this is what you want, it's absolutely the right thing. And you have all the tools and skills that you need to get there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 41:53
This is an interesting one. As you and I were talking about this concept earlier, we were sharing stories actually back and forth. And it seems like this one is partially about your, like, how you want to be perceived. And that idea of that type of perfectionism and making sure that you are perceived well influencing how you feel about something which ends up, in many cases, stopping you from ever pursuing something in the first place. Or you might start and then have that difference in how I want to be perceived versus how you thought you were perceived. And then that stops you from continuing and actually great, really recent example of this for me, and I feel... since we run a self development company, helping people with their careers in their lives, I feel very, very obligated, this is my built in steaks to some degree to keep me going, but I feel very obligated and I want to continue to practice this. And we'll talk a little bit about that part, too. But it seems like this pieces is relevant to I thought that on our recent podcast that just came out not that long ago, number 224. Where we recorded live from South by Southwest, that's the first time I've ever recorded a podcast live at an event or a festival or anything else like that. It was horrifically uncomfortable for me, even though I've spoken many times publicly and all that other stuff, it was a different experience. And when I look back, I actually thought it was... I thought it was really, really bad. The interview. I thought it was really, really bad. That's how I felt on stage. Because I wanted it to be at a certain level. And I was holding that level of perfectionism and then when I went listen backwards, it's like, oh, actually, it was pretty good. It was not bad at all, by any means. And in fact, the areas where I thought I did well, I probably could have improved much more. So it creates that disparity, too, which causes you to not move forward.

Caroline Adams 43:54
Yeah, I think that's a great example. And that comes up with people a lot with creativity to other parallel I see there. And in my own experience, when I'm putting something out there, when I'm writing a blog post and something that I'm really, really excited about, I think it's the most clever idea ever crickets, I hear nothing that converse well. I'll put something out there that I just feel like it's so dry and boring. And that's where I get the most feedback, like, "Oh my goodness, you're in my head. I, you know, how did you channel my thinking?" So I think both of those examples in your podcast experience and, you know, with my creative writing experience, you can just see how our minds work against us and put us in that spot, especially when I think your example illustrated, really, I was gonna say perfectly, it's really this idea that when we're comfortable and we're in that bubble of we've achieved a certain amount of success and, you know, this is what we do and I'm known for my podcast and, you know, I've gotten a lot of accolades and positive feedback on my podcast. And then... and I want to uphold that ideal, I want to do really well in the same space. And you work through it beautifully, because you went out there and did that, and we're happily surprised. And I think the other important piece of that is being uncomfortable, and your willingness to be in that uncomfortable spot, you could have totally stayed in that safe place of, I'm going to be in the studio, I'm going to make sure that I know exactly what happens and...

Scott Anthony Barlow 45:35
Very controlled.

Caroline Adams 45:36
Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 45:37
I get to control exactly what's going on, when I'm in my own studio, and with my own equipment, and everything else like that.

Caroline Adams 45:44
Exactly. And you put yourself into this environment where anything could have happened, right, because it was not only live, but it was in this totally new environment with new people and, you know, much different scenario. And I think that's a great lesson for people because oftentimes, we're trying to avoid pain. And even given a lot of examples about how to make things less painful, right? Sometimes it's about leaning into that pain, and finding a way to say, "Alright, I'm just going to accept this because I know something beautiful and wonderful is going to come out of it" which doesn't mean you're going to enjoy it, you know, it doesn't mean that it's going to be a comfortable experience. But the end result is something that's totally gonna propel you forward.

Scott Anthony Barlow 46:33
And now, I mean, with a couple of those examples, with the podcast example here now, now I've done it, and it's truly not as big of a deal as I probably made it out to be in my mind. Oh, here's a funny story before we roll right into the next piece, too. So when I got the invite for that, from the company who was putting on the event express, well, I thought for half a second, like it went through my mind for half a second about like, "Oh, my goodness, that's gonna be really comfortable." And I started, like, working on excuses for why I couldn't do it, unintentionally, didn't actually recognize this for a few minutes until I walked into the other room, and I was talking to my son, and I was telling him, "Hey, I just got this email, kind of a cool opportunity." And he's like, "Dad, so are you gonna do it?" And I'm like, "Well, yeah, thinking about it." And he's like, "Well, why wouldn't you do it? It sounds like a great opport..." and my son's nine. Like, he just turn nine and everything like that. And that's actually what snapped me back to reality on this, and kind of, you know, punched it in the face for me. It was my nine year old saying, "Well, dad, obviously you have to do it. Like it's super cool. You've got to do that." And I was like, "Oh, yeah, yeah, yes, yes."

Caroline Adams 47:45
Yeah, I love that. You just came up with the seventh, we haven't talked about a seventh. But another tool is, or your actual child, because it's from the mouth of babes, man, you know? Just say, "Well, why wouldn't you do this?" And I think because we've been through life for a certain number of years, or we talk ourselves out of things, whereas our nine year old, "Why wouldn't you do that? That's such a cool opportunity."

Scott Anthony Barlow 48:12
I love that. Adding it to the list, "why wouldn't you do this?" as the reminder question. So we started talking about one of these here, which was number six. And our conversations set us right up to roll into number six.

Caroline Adams 48:27
So you've probably detected a theme here with all of these, which is, it's about showing up and doing the work. And the real momentum that you gain with the creation of a habit. So standing on the sidelines, because you fear imperfection will net you nothing. So this is about going out and doing the thing because doing the thing is going to make you better. That's where we get practice makes possible, there's no way you're going to get your dream job if you don't try. And I'd like to say better to go for imperfect action, rather than perfect stagnation. And to illustrate this, I was actually talking to a CCB student the other day, and we're talking about establishing one of the things we do in CCB, which I think is really great, is really help people get on a schedule to go through the coursework and to have that way. And so he was comparing it to his recent experience with going back to the gym, and he's actually lost a ton of weight and gotten in great shape. And so he was talking about that snowball of good decisions, just made that up.

Scott Anthony Barlow 49:36
Love it. Like, that is a quote that is getting tweeted later.

Caroline Adams 49:39
The decision snowball that builds when you set your intention to do something like just going to the gym every day or just working on your career every day. So to use the gym analogy, like you start going to bed earlier because you have to get up in the gym, to go to the gym in the morning or you forego that extra slice of pizza because, you know, you're just gonna have have to work that much harder to burn off all those calories.

Scott Anthony Barlow 50:03
That's painful at the gym, too, like...

Caroline Adams 50:05
It's painful, yes. Why would you make it harder on yourself? So it just all of these decisions start to snowball, if you will. And it just kicks off this whole cascade of decisions that set you up for success even beyond going to the gym or doing the thing that you originally set out to do. Practice makes possible. So that's the key there. And if I can share a little bit, a little story, actually, since we're sharing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 50:31
We've been sharing already, so please do.

Caroline Adams 50:34
Yeah, so let me share a story that, actually, it wasn't that comfortable. So I think it's a pretty good fit here to share with folks the idea that we're trying to illustrate. So last summer, in researching topics for my own podcast that I will do at some point, I promise, I set out to interview 15 women. And it ended up interviewing, I ended up interviewing more than 40 women, but it didn't start there. So in those first, you know, it started with one conversation, and then two, and then three. And in those first few conversations, I was so uncomfortable. I had a lot of anxiety before the conversations in the conversations, like, you know, I had my script of questions, and I was just really trying to get through those interviews, I probably wasn't listening as well as I could have listened to what they were actually saying. If they didn't answer my questions, I didn't, you know, circle back and, you know, follow up on those questions. I think at deep, I was just getting through it. But as the conversations went on, as I talked to more and more people, I practiced, I got better, I got out of my own head, I started listening better and tailoring the conversations to actually what they were saying. And so some really cool things ended up coming out of that. So first of all, I got a lot better at interviewing. And so that might be a helpful skill if you want to do a podcast. Another thing that came out of it, which was totally unexpected was now I know 40 amazing women. And some of those women have become clients, actually. One woman I'm about to connect with a current student in CCB for them to talk about their various career paths. It's super cool, right? And it's just the gift that keeps on giving. But these 40 women, I did not know most of them. And even the ones that I was kind of connected to, it was a very weak tie. So which is very similar to what a lot of CCB students have to do in the beginning as they start to experiment and test out their theories of, you know, where they think they want to work. And so it's just this amazing experience. And I think it speaks to the value of all these amazing opportunities that appear just by simple, the simple fact that I got out there, I got started, and I did the work. And it was definitely not smooth, it was definitely not comfortable, all the conversations didn't go exactly the way I wanted to go or even close, but it totally exceeded my expectations. And actually part of it, I should say is, anyone who's accomplished something that they really don't want to do, right, there's a real rush that you get from just doing the thing, like, if you think of running a marathon, right, you know, maybe some people are going for a certain time... for me, I would just want to finish. I would just want to get across the finish line, by any means necessary even if I had to crawl. And so I think with whatever it is that you're going for in your career, whatever that thing is that feels uncomfortable or is going to make you stretch, just by simple, the simple process of actually doing the work, it's gonna feel amazing, because you've overcome that hurdle in your own life, regardless of how it turns out. So I think that's another added benefit. And so just to tie it all up, a lot of stories we hear from CCB, this happens all the time. So people will reach out to someone that they don't know, just to gather information, just to do their research. And either on the first contact or somewhere along the line, the person will say, "Hey, we actually have this job posting, it's not even up on the board yet. I immediately thought of you knowing what I know of your background". And this sort of thing happens all the time. And the point is that you can't be open to that opportunity and you can't be in front of that opportunity when it comes if you don't start, if you don't put in yourself in the situation to reach out to that person in the first place. So practice makes possible.

Scott Anthony Barlow 54:56
It's really interesting in terms of listening to those couple of stories here. Because it really is about changing your threshold. And like every one of those hard decisions or hard actions, allows you to get to a different place and practicing putting yourself in those hard situations, or uncomfortable situations, like, you making those phone calls and talk, having those conversations and everything that went along with it. Now, next time you think about that, it is less difficult. And there is less of a challenge, because you went through and you intentionally practice that. Geez, my wife and I just had a conversation this morning. One of... this last year, actually, we didn't... we always set goals, we sit down on, typically it's on the... we'll do a little bit of goal planning in November, the previous year, and then we'll set down to like finalize goals on January 1. And that's something we've done the last few years. And we didn't hit one of our financial goals this year. And as we were talking about it, we realized, you know, really, if we trace it back, like a few things underneath the surface, it really had to do with us not continuously getting outside of our comfort zone in that particular area. And we realize that, "hey, guess what, we're probably not going to hit it this year, if we don't intentionally practice getting outside our comfort zone in that area." Because generally, our goals and the things that we want to accomplish, have something to do with something that we've never done before, which means that we're going to have to go through a period of discomfort. And if we're not doing that intentionally and make it easier to go through that period of discomfort, whatever that is, because it's a skill set in itself to practice just that thing. Right? Then it probably isn't going to be possible. Yeah. Okay, so let's really, all of these have a couple of things in common. Everything that we've talked about so far, have a couple of things in common here. So let's pull it together here, because it really seems like every single one of these is about enabling you to take those actions, enabling you to get motion. I remember way back when we had Richie Norton on, who's the author of "The Power of Starting Something Stupid". And it's been a while ago, but he... this always stuck out in my mind. He said, you know, "Magic happens with motion." And it really does. Nothing happens without motion, nothing happens without taking fairly big steps, even if those big steps are broken up into really teeny tiny ones along the way, like we talked about. So I definitely see that running through the metal. What else would you say is the main theme for all of these here? What would you add?

Caroline Adams 58:07
Yeah, I think taking steps. And I'm so glad you worked magic in there, because I feel like we should mention magic in every single podcast if at all possible. But yes, certainly taking steps. I think, as you were sharing that story about you and your wife, you mentioned the word intention, and so I think intention is really important, because you have to decide, at some point, you have to decide whether it's taking a step, whether it is agreeing that it's uncomfortable, but you're going to go through it anyway. I think that's another important component. I think those are the two, I'm just looking back through them. Oh, and then I think it's... what are you making it mean? And so not making the thing more than just the thing. I think that the biggest thing and we shared some examples before about how our brains just really work against us, not our friends. I don't know about your brain, but my brain sure sometimes it feels like it's working against me, but...

Scott Anthony Barlow 59:14
Oh, mine's worse, Caroline. Like, I think my brain does not do that. So I don't even see when it happens at all, like, and I'm convinced that "Oh, I've beaten it. I have absolutely beaten it." But whatever it is, at the time, it doesn't even matter. A lot of times I totally don't even see it, the perfectionism at all.

Caroline Adams 59:41
Yeah, sometimes when I'm working with folks who have done a lot on their personal development journey, right? So they read all the books, they meditate, whatever, they sing Kumbaya, they've really done a lot of work already on understanding themselves. You know, when we'll come across topics like this, they'll say,"Yeah. I know that already." And I think we, as coaches, and anyone who's in that space where they've done a lot of the work, I think we can fall into that trap of, you know, I don't need to work on this anymore. And as we know, that's a huge pitfall, because of course, we all need to work on ourselves all the time. So I think that's interesting what you just said there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 1:00:32
It's not like riding a bike, as it turns out, and as soon as you stop practicing this stuff, or stop working on it, then it goes away, too, or it becomes more difficult. And so yeah, I really appreciate that synopsis and thank you for making the time again, this is number two, again, you know, I said earlier, but go back if you haven't already, listen to Caroline's story and her career change story in Episode 120, or excuse me, 223, we've done 200 plus episodes now over five years. So happentoyourcareer.com/223. And you'll be able to hear all about the changes that she made along the way and even some of the elements of perfectionism and everything there, too, that she's had to overcome. And I continue to work with, to our point, that we just made a little bit earlier. So thank you so much for making the time and taking the time. Appreciate it.

Caroline Adams 1:01:28
Thanks for having me, Scott. It was an absolute pleasure. I look forward to the next episode.

Scott Anthony Barlow 1:01:33
Hey, thanks so much for listening to the Happen To Your Career podcast. I really, really appreciate it. And I appreciate you. And guess what? We've got plenty more coming up next week., right here on Happen To Your Career. So take a listen to what we've got in store for you next week on the Happen To Your Career podcast.

Katie 1:01:54
And the thing is, though, is that I've told the owner, that idiot boss and one of the managers saying, "I'm bored. How can I help? Give me something to do." and nothing's happened. So I verbalize with them. Essentially, like I'm not happy. I'm bored. I'm not challenged and I've gotten nothing to work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 1:02:12
That's right, all that and plenty more next week it's here on Happen To Your Career. I will see you next week when the episode releases on Monday. All right. I am out! Adios.