Robert was in a VP level role, earning great money and enjoying life and work. He was well known around his industry. He was great at what he did.
Things were pretty good overall… Until they weren’t!
Robert got laid off. No big deal right. A great opportunity to take some time and get a way. (Thanks soft landings and severance!)
Except when it came time to go back to work: 8 months passed. Then 10, 12… 18 months passed and he’d had a few interviews but nothing had panned out.
He and his partner were pulling their hair out a bit trying to figure out what was going on. He’s a smart guy, he gets results, why wasn’t this working?
They had been through everything, was it his interview style? Simply unlucky? Was he coming off as desparate?
That’s where I had the opportunity to meet Robert. As he was trying to figure out what was working and what wasn’t.
It turns out Robert’s answer wasn’t what you’d think it would be.
We’re sharing a rare opportunity to listen in to an actual coaching session with Robert as we systematically uncover what’s working for him and what’s not.
As a disclaimer: I’ve been coaching for over 15 years, there are very subtle pieces in here that sound much like us simply having a conversation but I’m pushing and testing to find where Robert needs the most help. What this means is that the advice in this conversation is perfectly tailored to Robert and although I promise you’ll hear things you might resonate and identify with in this coaching session, it doesn’t necessarily mean that you should do exactly what I’ve advised Robert to do. Your situation may be very different.
Take a listen as a fly on the wall to Robert’s coaching session on the Happen To Your Career Podcast
As you listen to this session ask yourself this question:
Are you making the mistake of trying to do what you think you *should* vs what you’ve seen work for yourself? (Robert was doing this and it wasn’t working)
Robert was making 2 of the 3 biggest mistakes we see for “High Performers” who are in the midst of a career change.
BTW if you want to know all three mistakes high performers make, check out this training here
Listen to the entire coaching session by downloading or clicking the player above (or on your favorite podcast app) or read the transcript below!
Transcript from Episode
Scott’s Actual Coaching Session with “Robert”
Scott: So you sent me some of this information already, but help me understand a little bit about, you know, how many applications have really sent out because it's been about a year, right? A year since you have been working. Is that fair to say?
Robert: Years since I've been working full time and wanting to go to work. Before that I was working on projects. And it was an easy transition. I left when position and immediately had a three different projects lined up. It was good. I was biding my time. Yes. So it's been about a year. It started to really, like, I started really thinking it was time to go back to full time gigs, probably this time, June, July of last year. And I started really like, you know, searching for stuff and you know, through the first year I probably sent out three or four resume.
Scott: Total? Or like a week or a month?
Robert: Total, like total, like, you know, and I mean that because I saw stuff that I liked and I thought, wow, okay, this is, this is more in line where I want to go. And you know, it was very, very intrigued by a lot of his stuff and out of that, I got no response, nothing. And then I made her, I found out, I checked to the sites and everything and they just never pursued any of these jobs like dating. They might have contacted somebody, they didn't contact me, but the jobs are still buried in their career site, you know. And then after that, more recently, probably in the beginning of the year, so probably about six months ago, I started to see the jobs that were more of a more similar to the job site I've already had, and out of vogue I probably sent out 10 resumes, and one and I probably got like six different, five or six different interviews with the five or six different companies. So yeah, I mean that sounds pretty good, right?
Scott: Certainly, can be. My experience is that on average, and I hesitate to use the word average because you know, as a fairly high income earner, you're already not, you're already not necessarily average, right? And but on average, people are getting about some place between one to four ratio in terms of offers like an offer versus every four or as much as like one to seven. So that, that helps you understand a little bit of range. Now if we just look at those numbers, I would say that you're not like absurdly outside of, of that, which may or may not be helpful when you're thinking about it, but it's just an, it's not the only thing. Just in a, just a reference point we can use along the way. Aside from that though, so tell me a little bit about those interviews. You know, I know you sent me a little bit of information on this, but help me understand, you know, what did those interviews feel like? What did they for these like, Hey, I knocked them out of the park and then a left and boom, nothing happens. Or was it completely different and it might be different for each one?
Robert: It was kind of different for each one. And, and I will say, I've been referring to myself as the king of getting one interviewee, interviewer, correct? Because a lot of them, usually in the past, it's almost like you get screened by a recruiter, HR person and then they set you up with a phone call. Somebody you're going to be meet and they need to do this thing, you talked to them and they get comfortable with the idea and then you go when you meet up and then if you like, they always have unique somebody else that has to kind of weigh in. That's how it's always been done before. And then all of a sudden I got into this new kind of system where I get screened by HR person and then, or recruiter and then given a person I'm going to meet. And then I'm actually maybe one, two or three people in that day. But two of them I didn't even know existed. So, like the first interview was actually pretty good. You know, I went to the whole thing when it got to the stage to say this was the first person, it was very great because we actually do a lot of the same people. So it was super simple interview. And then I met another person that gay and it was like I hit a stone wall. I was like, I try to try to interview her because she was not asking any questions at all.
Scott: So you're saying that kind of a dig into that for just a second, just so that I can understand, be on the same page as you. And by the way, I'm going to keep asking you questions like this just so that I can get a, get a sense of where we need to hone some of our efforts because I'd love to spend, I'm kind of the first, first little bit of time here digging in and understanding, and then the last little bit of time seeing if I can help you understand where to focus your efforts on. Is that fair?
Scott: Okay. So on, so with, with like, Ms Stone Wall or Mr Stone Wall or whoever it was that, what did what, what do you feel like afterwards and looking at it, looking back, what do you feel like was missing from that conversation to really have them like you? Because regardless of what qualifications and everything else, there's always this overarching bias of whether or not people like you and feel like you fit. And then some of the other stuff is sometimes extra. So help me understand that.
Robert: Well, that's a good point. I'll go back and I'll say that the person I was supposed to be and not where you this person that was not the greatest energy. I ended up leaving the secondary person first. Because the person I was supposed to meet. How do you keep switching the time? And then there was a lap of about 45 minutes while I was hanging out, reading for the or the person and they finally arrived and they were, you know, she was very nice. She was very apologetic and it started off really, really well. I mean, it was sort of like, I think she regrouped with the other person first and she started just asking questions and then it seems, you know, to be perfectly honest, it's sort of like she got a little distracted and I'm not sure if that was because there was something, you know, a fire happening that she was more concerned with or, or what, or if I was just losing her because I didn't, it's hard. Like I didn't think there was any relevant questions like there wasn't any, any real questions like, you know, professionally, like you, what do you do here, what do you do there? Or a personal question, like what do you like, what you don't like, you know, so it was kinda hard to get onto a sort of terrible likeability thing. So it was always very pleasant but it wasn't getting, you know, more comfortable than that.
Scott: What was the conversation about? Cause clearly you spent time there and I'm guessing I might be wrong, but I'm guessing you were just sitting there having a staring contest necessarily. Although tell me if you were but what did…
Robert: It wasn't that bad.
Scott: So what was the, some of the conversation about based on what you remember and I am well aware I'm asking for details for stuff.
Robert: Well, you know, the funny thing as I probably should have wrote a bunch of steps down after the, after the fact, but I didn't. So the conversation was, was more like, you know, this is what we plan to do, you know, this is how we started. We're just, you're the first person in the process, you know, Blah Blah Blah. I hear that you come recommended by so and so. And that was sort of all very, very nice. And we talked about the aspects of that. And then it really wasn't, you know, usually at that particular moment, that's a good segway to gen up and walk through a certain area and talk or whatever and showed me the stuff and like sort of a friendly input wherever. Let me just sat in the conference room and we just talked and we really didn't talked about my skills or qualifications or how I'd fit in or anything. Obviously I would probably sit in because I know the second person in charge and last night I heard they liked me, not dissimilar, so I don't really know. It was kind of like less kind of like a pleasantry and you know, and after the meeting, and I won't say perfunctory, but he did follow the snail and every quarter they responded to the other person that I know, I guess I don't know where like personally personal, but I do know her. You're like other people. She responded and then the person I was supposed to meet with never responded, but that's not necessarily a bad thing because I'd been hired at companies where they just don't have time to respond. And personally I have, I find the role was reversed sometimes I don't have time to respond to the follow-up emails right away either.
Scott: Yeah, yeah, totally. Absolutely. So that type of situation that you just described to me, did that happen other places too? Or was it just this one isolated occasion?
Robert: That was an isolated occasion.
Scott: Okay. And so in those other six, five, six interviews that we were talking about here, what do you think? Well, first of all, let's, let's say that there were several that didn't, just like didn't hire it all right?
Robert: Right. So far I haven't looked at that thing. I think for just haven't done anything to take two of them. I've taken the role down because they didn't know how to turn. How do you want to configure things? And then two other ones have told me and it's still open that are now on the back burner right now.
Scott: Okay. Which, I mean you've worked at a VP level before, and I'm assuming you've probably hired people before. You and I both know that that could mean that could mean that they haven't figured out their budgets, could mean that they are having an internal power struggles to try and figure out who gets what. It could mean a huge range of things. It could mean that they just haven't found the right person for the role. Right?
Robert: Great. And you nailed the first two immediately. I know that there was a concern that to places and probably nailed the third one. You've probably figured out the right person for the role. So yes, I know a whole host of things and I was kind of writing this because I was so pleased. I'm guessing you'll buy emphasis on reading people and I'm good for summer or right after. So one thing I got to a certain timeframe. It certainly, yeah, I'm addicted. Nothing three concrete and it happened. So…
Scott: Potentially. Yeah. You and I have both experienced that in not just that industry but other different industries too, however we probably both seen exceptions to that as well.
Robert: Yeah, great enough. They will hire me.
Scott: Oh yeah. It doesn't matter what time of year it is.
Robert: Yeah, exactly.
Scott: Let me ask you just a couple of other questions here and we're going to kind of do a broad array at first and then that way I can bring us back around to you. What's gonna be most useful for you? So, so you went on these different interviews, and did all of these different interviews come from, you know, sending off a traditional application or resume or how did, how did each one of these happen when you can just really quickly go through each one of the six if need be,
Robert: When interview happened to a traditional, send a resume but directly to the company. So not through a job site, whatever. I did get a phone interview from a kind of a job sites resume thing, and that was interesting, but it hasn't really progressed past that. The other ones have been deals fact, I mean, he'd say it the old fashioned way. If you know somebody could say, hey, look at this resume. That's how I got into the inner circle. So…
Scott: Who are some of those people that got you in, if you will?
Robert: External recruiter to internal recruiters, personal recommendation on one and that's, I guess that's pretty much it kind of like, oh, one actually, I did the research and I figured out who was the person involved, like in charge of everything and I did the LinkedIn with the person. So, that was, I guess I was my own recruiter. So, but not, I haven't had much luck through the traditional, you know, job search portal, stuff like that.
Scott: Okay, cool. That helps me tremendously. We'll come back and we'll talk about those pieces here in just a minute. So first of all, I love that you've been reaching out to people, love that you have been doing some of this as you called it the old fashioned way. I think it truly is the old fashioned way, but it also has become the in some ways, nontraditional way because everybody else is submitting stuff through job portals that clicking the button on Linkedin or whatever else. Right?
Robert: Yeah. And to be fair, I have my own biases on sort of these things because I have hired a lot of people.
Scott: Yeah. Tell me about that.
Robert: And, I've used services and the services are meant to screen top candidates. So they give you a percentage of how much these people meet your criteria and shockingly or not shockingly, most of the people that this computer program where we're matching to my job, once, like they would get like 80 to 85 percent perfect match. Once I looked at the resume, I would go, there's an intern, this is a person who, you know, hasn't clearly dunning or they work for fictitious companies. There's a lot of people who, you know, work for X, Y and G company that doesn't really exist. So it was like, in that particular role I was having to, you know, physically search of the resumes and that's time consuming. So I understand why a lot of companies use these programs. But I also understand in the big ticket or case that I was in using these programs, I think we use two different ones over the course of five years. It wasn't, it actually wasn't giving me the good candidate. It was giving me people who were good at writing resumes or good at understanding filters. So they were getting to the top.
Scott: Which I think you've clearly articulated, I think the frustration on both sides of that. I think we could probably spend a good seven hours just talking about that one thing that I will spare you a solid rant on that. I've got some strong opinions on that piece of it, but I have, I think some of the same biases. So we're on the same page. Along those, along that lines though, help me understand a little bit about what you feel like you do best. I want to ask this from two different lenses here and just spend just a couple of minutes on it, you know, from a sort of quote unquote job search type perspective or career change type perspective. What are some of the areas of that that you perceive that you do pretty well at? You know, whether it be like, I dunno, relating with people in the interview or whatever it happens to be for you. But then the other area I want to ask you about is just in general, what do you feel like some of your strengths and the things that you gravitate towards and just do very well either from nature or nurture or help me understand both sides of that.
Robert: Alright. So, what I think I do well in the job search. A loaded question because obviously a lot of offers. So if I got an offer I can tell you exactly what I did well in that particular case.
Scott: That's okay. We're going to break it down to pieces. Just your opinion. There's no pressure to even be right here necessarily. I just want to get your opinion on what you feel like you're doing really well in the past.
Robert: Well, in the past it's like, I don't know the cycles of these things. It's funny, you know, one particular job that I still haven't gotten, Dave called me three different times over the last three years, each candidate only last a year and I keep trying to tell him you're hiring the wrong candidate but they don't want to know. So that is hired another candidate three months ago, four months ago. So there'll be back on the cycle
Scott: But maybe that's a place that's not ready for you yet. Maybe you don't want to work there right now until they've changed some of their philosophies on those types of things.
Robert: That's when we're looking at it the other way in my head it's like, you know, once you get the right candidate everything is easy. It's not a difficult job, but there's a lot of wanting and you know, sort of like with a job, like job postings to everybody else always had these 10 or so qualification and honestly there's three, maybe four that really correspond to the job and the other is just wishful thinking. And even if they got the person that had all of them, they might not ever use those other, those other skills. So it's kind of like the, it seems to me that they get too far into it and they're not able to look at what the role is really supposed to achieve. So because I go into my strength, I think I can look at different job postings and I think I'm actually seeing the meat and potatoes of the job. So then I will seek out that job per se if it didn't align with my core skillset or my core ability, you know, learning a proprietary one management system versus proprietary to management that the moon is just learning the program. It's not like re educating yourself on technology as a whole. So I see a lot of companies like, oh, you need to know slack or basecamp or whatever and work horse and it's sort of like, you know, that's not really a requirement.
Scott: Like we can teach you slack in 10 minutes with a video.
Robert: And nine of them you did sleep through.
Robert: So it's kind of like, you know, they get into the weeds and they're actually missing the essence of the job. So for me it's like I look at things and I see really the essence and you know, some of the jobs I've, one in particular I don't think I'm ever going to get called for it, but it was interesting and I don't want to go too much into it, but it was for journalism and you know, certain type of editing for this journalism thing. And I totally see the correlation from my career to that career because I'm about five years ago a journalist who was in that realm, we're trying to make the leap into the realm that I'm at. And they just, they're sympathetic, they're just doing the different people places and things, but all the other ingredient, it's kinda like Italian cooking versus French cooking. You're still cooking, you know, you're just using different ingredients that you'll learn, you know, once you get into it. So, you know, so that's I think I'm doing well. I think my shortcoming is I maybe relying too heavily on my previous experience and not, you know, seeking out that enthusiasm, you know, I was asking question like why do I want to work for this company in this one interview. And it was kinda weird because immediately I thought in my head, wow, didn't you guys just three, four months ago lay off like over 2000 people. So in my mind I was like, well, do I really want to work for the company? So, you know, I think my shortcoming right now is not being able to, you know, I'm like a salesperson, like, you know, complete the sale. I'm leaving too much ambiguity in the bed.
Scott: I was gonna ask. May I give you a little bit of feedback on that. That might be helpful.
Scott: I know you're gonna listen to this afterwards, but one of the things I want you to listen for is listen for the sound of your tone of voice and listened for a, even the expressions that were probably in a very minute way either on your face or on your body or other things along those lines. And listened to the front side of this interview where a non interview, sorry, the, front side of this conversation, where, you know, you and I had talked to via email a little bit and you had some expectations coming into this. And then I had some other different expectations and it sounded visibly like you're put off by that in one way or another versus as we started talking about some of these things that you feel very strongly about in one way or another. It sounds like a completely different person and I've got to imagine that the experience for somebody who's interacting with you feels completely different too, especially if it's in person, but even if it's over the phone then they don't have anything else to judge on other than the tone of voice in and what their perceptions are. Right? So I think to give you a little bit of validation on what you were saying earlier, I do believe that that is probably going to be important for you that as you go into this, as you continue to talk to, to interact with people that you are doing things that you feel really good about or you are interacting with companies or organizations or people that you feel really good about. Because one of the things that, and you can tell me if this is accurate or not, but one of the things that I perceive from interacting with you is that you're not real. You're not like somebody who's real good at faking it, if you will. Some people are great at that. I'm not one of them necessarily, but it seems like you are also not in that category. Is that fair? Am I getting that right at all?
Robert: I think that's a pretty fair assessment. Yeah.
Scott: So if we know that about you, then that's actually great because here's what I also have picked up just from interacting with you a little bit. When you do feel strongly about one thing or another, like it is re, you're really easy to gravitate towards like you are very, very, I would be willing to bet that people want to continue to ask you questions or want to continue to interact with you. So it may have even been in, I don't know that this was the case at all. I wasn't there. But you can, you can kind of judge and just throwing out a scenario like for that one interview that you described to me that they, like, it was not going as well as you'd hoped and it's like, what is going on here? It may have been that it went completely differently than what you thought it was supposed to. So you were sort of put off by that in that changed the, I'm going to say quality of the interaction in some ways too, and I don't know that, but I want you to be able to start watching for that.
Robert: Yeah. No, and I have like, you know, replayed it in my head from, with different filters on it and that's pretty fair assessment too because, I was expecting a continuation of the other interview I had and I got a different one and it was awkward and then like I said, I thought I was trying to regroup and it turned into more of the asking questions, you know, integrating other person. So yeah, it became weird. Psychologically, it wasn't great.
Scott: So that is awesome because now with these couple of pieces of information then even thinking about it through that new lens, I think that there's a lot of different things that we can tweak very slightly that will have different impacts in getting you results. So do you mind if I give you a couple of examples of that? Okay. So here's one thing that jumps into my mind in terms of, you know, if this were a game of chess, how do we set up the chess pieces so that we've got the end result that we're only so many moves away from a checkmate and maybe checkmates a bad example or bad analogy here, but go with it for just a second. We want to set up strategically the pieces on the board so that we've got the end result of getting where you want to go. Right? So one thing we just established is that if you're walking into organizations where you only kind of halfway believe that it's a good deal for you, then they're probably a lot less likely to hire you anyways. Even if already know you or know of you or anything else along those lines because it's just not going to be as great of an interaction as if you walk in there and you're like, holy crap, this is, this would be awesome. I could totally help these people with these types of challenges and that would be super exciting. It's going to be a totally different experience for not just you, but they're going to. They're going to feed off that energy for lack of a better phrase. So not to get too woo woo on you here. But I think that that's important because it creates a completely different experience and then subconsciously, they like you for completely different reasons. Then may then they may even understand necessarily, and that causes them to influence their decisions that happen from there too. So by no means the only thing we should consider here, but I think it's an important one because we've just established that you're not going to be the type of person who's going to just like walk into any company whatsoever and be like, this is great and I can totally hide it or whatever. I don't think that that's a good situation for you. Right?
Robert: Yeah, it's not.
Scott: Okay. So if we know that, I think that there's a couple of the things that we can, we can do here. One of them, what's clear to me after talking through this a bit here is there are probably some organizations out there that you've already been eyeballing that don't necessarily have publicized open jobs. Is that fair to say? Are there, do you have any companies in mind? We don't even have to talk about them necessarily, right? Right here. But do you have any companies in mind that are, that you're like, yeah, I think it'd be cool to work there.
Robert: Yeah, I do actually. I've been thinking about and sometimes we have to create condition because they don't even know that they need it. And to all my positions in the past were completely, like they were made for me, like a crack at it for me after, you know. Yeah, there's a couple of companies that I would like to potentially work for that date. I see the need, I don't see the organizational structure, so I don't know if there is a stick. But yeah, back to your question.
Scott: Okay. So let me reframe this just a little bit and sort of repeat back to you what I think I just heard. So it sounds like if we look at where you've had a ton of success in the past, one of those big areas of success would be being able to identify a need, which I think is, that's consistent too. Like one of the things that you said earlier to me is, hey, when I look at different job postings, I'm really able to get to sort of the essence of the job or you have this intuitive ability to understand what the real needs are versus all this other crap. Right? And as it seems that that flows through other areas of your life as well and even to your ability to be able to recognize a need within an organization. And it sounds like two or three times, that is literally how you've gotten opportunities, which I always believe not in every case, but almost every case that a great way to go is doubled down on what has worked incredibly well for you in the past. And I think that, that in this particular case is playing incredibly well to your strengths.
Scott: Well, so let me pause for a second and just tell me your reactions to that or what thoughts, hesitancies, etc.
Robert: No, I think it's great and I have no problem with it. That's sort of, you know, one role well it's a posted role, during that I got and I spent almost five years now during the interview process. We actually built it out to be more robust. So I actually took on more responsibility. They were very happy because they didn't have to pay for two people.
Scott: I bet.
Robert: Another one that is still in limbo, they've taught has been to do the similar thing to expand it. So, yeah, I mean I kinda like that, you know, it's somewhat time, not time consuming to do it, but there is a big lag time in talking to a company or talking to people. I'm trying to really flush out something that might be a true benefit for them. So, and I need a starting point too, so a bit of a problem. So…
Scott: Yes. Okay, so two things that I just heard. One, you've got this concern about the lag time and ultimately the, I'm just going to call it like total time spent a little bit, right?
Scott: And then the second piece is like where do you start if we're going down that direction, right?
Scott: Okay, cool. So let's try and handle those one at a time here really quick and let me, let me try and get you some really one, a couple of different ways to be able to think about this in order to make it easier, but then two, let's try and get you some really good next action steps that you can begin using like tomorrow and the next day and, that are going to set you up for the results that you're actually looking for here. How's that sound?
Scott: Cool! So, by the way, I'm hearing the, like a real version of you coming through more and more and like, the more that we can keep that version of you, the one that like people are super excited and gravitate towards, present, and set up those environments, if you will, to where you sort of naturally come out and in that way then the better off that it's more of the deck is going to be stacked in your favor.
Robert: Sounds good.
Scott: Okay. So I believe, I think one thing that's worthwhile to point out here at first is that, currently the approaches you've taken haven't haven't bore fruit, right? So there's been a fair amount of work or effort or other things like that and we still haven't gotten to the result that, that you're, that you're looking for. So, I totally agree with you. I think you've diagnosed it rightly like it, it takes more time. It absolutely, definitely takes more time compared to like clicking the button on an application or like doing an easy. Like I've got this friend over here but I'm not really that excited about the company and I can get an interview. I guess. So I'll go. I'm like, it is. It's going to take more time and effort than those types of routes for sure. However, if your end goal is walking into a job that pays you what you want and is also something where you don't hate yourself at the end of the day, there, and you feel good about and you can continue having those great interactions with the people you work with and what you're working on. Then I think that, if we look at it from an effectiveness standpoint, then this type of approach is going to be more effective for you. So is that, does that make sense even?
Robert: Yeah. Actually it does. I mean, you're articulating what, you know, I think in my brain already. So, yeah, I think it's more rewarding and know for sure.
Scott: Well, I have the sense that you have good census and I might be wrong, but I think you definitely need to trust that, that sense of what's already goIng on in your brain. And, okay, so the other thing that I'm not totally sure what I dId there necessarily, but let's, the other thing I think that's worth talking about in terms of those, the time frame around it. There's always think, I always think about what is the situation I want to get myself into? And if we're talking about essentially having a role created for you, then that means that we need to get you into the right time and right place where they need you essentially in one fashion or another. And they're at the point where they are wanting to take action on that sort of need and so that means that we have to sort of align the right people right place and right time, right? When I think about how we, how do we create a result, we need to align the right people right place and right time. So we'll talk. We'll come back to that. We'll talk about that here in just a second. But I think that that is our goal in if we're sort of manufacturing the right situation to engineer you a role or put you in those right to a right place, right time, right great people. So, steps going forward. I think you're first in number one set of steps has to be what organizations are around that I really am interested, legitimately interested in being a part of. Or as a caveat to that, I suspect that I'm really interested in being a part of. And I want to further explore because you, you might be wrong, like you said, or I can't remember what you said earlier, but something that led me to believe that like there's, there's some of them where you're like, ah, I think I would like to be a part of that, but you don't necessarily know for sure. So at a minimum these have to be organizations that you have enough belief for one reason or another, either research or talking to people that have worked there or whatever, whatever reason you believe that it could be a good fit, you won't, you won't know until we take some other different actions. Right?
Robert: Yeah. I mean there are different places, there are two things of our jobs or roles that come up that are like, yeah, those are great. I love it. Sometimes it takes to companies where I may know too much about where I'm like kind of questioning why I would want to do that. And then the other company that I have nothing but good vibes for. I know that people will work there. I know the company, I would be delighted to work there. And I never see the role, so it's kind of this mixture. There are definitely companies here, you know, this area and even on, you know, in your area, there's some nice company, but this store is just hadn't aligned to be the right place at the right time, the right person. So…
Scott: Okay, cool. So, one I think important component for that to help you understand where we're going to end up going here is we, I do not want you waiting for the right role to be posted, especially at the level you're app and for the amount of pay that I know that you want. We cannot, we just simply can't wait for our role to be posted. Like you and I both know that most of these organizations are going to be incredibly busy in one way or another and if the right person at the right time roles across your desk or you get to interact with that person, then I'm more excited to be able to pursue that rather than dig through the stack of resumes on the digital stuff that really is giving me crap anyways. Right? I heard you say earlier and I feel very much the same way, so in some ways our goal here is to not wait for anything to be posted, but essentially get ahead of that curve and also at the same time be helpful by making it easier to make sure that they know that you are out there and have already built a relationship with them so that they can just grab it off the market for all intensive purposes. Does that make sense? It's a quite backwards approach.
Robert: You're right, you know. Getting three minutes in front of the right person then everything is after that. So yeah, getting, getting my resume or my linkedin profile or getting it to the right person when they're sitting there and they have a need or they're thinking that it might be a need coming up or they're having a problem or they, you know, all those things where like I wish I had somebody or something to help me out on the golden moment. Because then it becomes their idea and you know, it's a lot easier to get swept into the whole situation. So yeah, I, you know, I agree. I mean, so the trick is getting, getting it in front of the right person.
Scott: Cool. Let's talk about.
Robert: Go about doing it, you know.
Scott: Okay. So step one, here's what I want you to do it. I want you sitting down and coming up with a minimum of 10 companies that you are legitimately interested in to where, when you, when you walk in there, you don't have to like, I don't know, try and act a different than what you believe it to be. You may not know for sure that it's a really amazing situation, but you want to at least know more. So we want to create 10, 10 companies that are on that list. That's where we're going to start, right? So that's, that's your step one pretty easy step like you, like you'll, you'll rock that step. So after we have those 10 companies on the on list, what I want you to go through and do is figure, we want to figure out what is the, what is the potential connection or angle or other place that's right for contacted the right person at, at each, each organization. So in some cases that might be like the operations VP or that might be the CEO. In other cases it might be a completely different, a different person that you ultimately want to talk to her or be able to get to know or even the set of people that you've identified. Okay, so then we're not going to necessarily have time to cover every single, every single potential way to do that right here and now, but I'll give you, I'll actually send you to resources after that or after this. One is actually there's two different podcasts that we have on how to contact people or how to reach people that are difficult to get ahold of or how to build relationships in creative ways. Because our goal is not going to be walking in there and asking for a job. Our goal is going to be completely opposite of that. What we want to do is be able to get time with these people to learn more about the organization and find out if this is even a fit or if there's other ways that you can add value to them in the first place. Okay, so let me give you just a couple examples of ways that you can do that and we'll just, we'll just go through a few different examples that may not apply to every organization, but at least we'll get you started. Is that cool?
Robert: Okay. That's cool.
Scott: Okay. So way number one, this is, we'll call this the low hanging fruit type way, right? This is you. You find one of those organizations and you're like, I dunno, you're researching on linkedin and you realize, oh crap, this person used to work with this other person. I know really well I didn't, I didn't know that. Okay, fantastic. So then at that point I want you to reaching out to that other person that already had a relationship with them and find out if they're willing to make an introduction for you. And this, I suspect you've done plenty of introductions in the past, but just a really quick couple of ways to even make it easier and more effective overall. Way number one would be, you know, find out if they're willing to make an introduction in the first, give them some of the context in this case. Hey, I'm not, I'm not. Don't tell them, hey, I'm looking to get a job there or anything like that. You don't even know if you're looking to get a job there yet. You don't even know if you like the company yet, but be able to share with them that, hey, I am, I'm really interested in this organization and trying to figure out if it's a fit or a place that I want to be or anything else and I'm really interested in what this person is doing over there and some of the projects or whatever else it is that you are legitimately interested in going on. So provide that person that, that context that would be introducing you. And then saying, hey, if you'd be willing to make an introduction, I would, I'll send you actually a quick, a quick example email, that way you can copy and paste or make some changes and just make it easier on you. And even if they say don't send the email or whatever, do it anyways, like write it for you because two reasons, one that helps you control some of the positioning a little bit, but two, they might be 100 percent good intention and I bet you've experienced this as a, as a VP, like you want to help somebody but then whole bunch of things at your desk and you're like, oh crap, I still got to send that email for them. And then two weeks later it still hasn't been saying right? So do sending it anyways just makes it easier because then like, oh to grab the copy and paste version, okay, it's gone done off my list. Awesome. So that's, those are just a couple of thIngs that'll make it easier and make It much more effective in getting that introduction. Okay. So that's one way because then you can then you can have the conversation via email, schedule something out or buy them coffee or any other thing depending on what's appropriate. So another way, let's say that you don't have an easy end or easy introduction or whatever. You can do a little bit of CSI work and then either contact them by phone or by email or by linkedin. And I would try to go for, if you can, phone in a lot of cases is usually the best way unless of course they have something screening their calls because it's more difficult to say no to somebody by phone once you pick up versus like a email or something that may not work.
Robert: Yeah. I mean it's great approach because it kind of like taking it. I intended my personality type, can go with email first or something and…
Scott: Email is easier, quite frankly. You and everybody else tend to go with the email first. So…
Robert: Yeah, because I don't know if I always equate the phone with direct sales and you know, having like an elevator pitch ready, and powering through the time when they say no, no, no to get them to relax enough to listen.
Scott: Yeah, don't use that approach at all.
Scott: So that conversation could be very, very open and honest quite frankly because they, when they pick up their phone, they're anticipating that somebody either need something from them or it's going to be direct sales or it's gonna be something else. Essentially it's going to be a nuisance. So you have to evade that part rather quickly. And that can be as simple as saying, hey, I'm a, my name is Scott and I got, I have kind of a weird question for you. I am really interested in what you do at your organization and I've just been trained to learn a lot more about what it is that you do there and how you work with people over there. It, is that something that I could ask you a little bit about or is that something that you'd be willing to spend a few minutes with me? And could I ask you a few questions about what you do? The reason I'm asking is because at some point in the future, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make a job transition and I don't know necessarily where or how or anything, but your, your company is one of the ones that I've been really exploring. Would you be willing to share a little bit more about that with me? And it that could feel a little bit uncomfortable for you the first time around and you've got to adjust it to your own words and the way that you actually talk versus the way that Scott talks. But that type of conversation, just being able to share blatantly what it is that you're after. You're not after a job at that point. You don't even know if you want to work there, but being after just getting a little bit of their time. And it can be as simple as asking for 15 minutes or 10 minutes. And even if we don't have time right away, being able to say I'm more than happy to. Even if it's way in the future, more than happy to schedule something around your schedule more than more than happy to do that and that is one going to help you learn more and figure out is this someplace I actually want to work and then two, it's going to get you like that three minutes that you're you're talking about and yes, some people are probably going to say, you know what, I just don't have the time. I appreciate you calling, but I just don't have the time. Or how did you get this number? Or like, but what we find is that in this case where we're using this type of approach to just be able to learn more and begin building a relationship and begin determining how you can offer value to an organization. Then, usually we see that over half people actually say yes and they're more than willing to and they're thrilled to pieces to and they're honored that you'd call that.
Robert: Yeah. I mean, as you were talking about kids playing scenarios through my head, kind of similar. I wasn't looking for a job, but I was looking for a bigger company and how they dealt with, you know, a similar thing that I was doing work and I did reach out to the person in charge and he was very gracious and we had a very long conversation about it. But yeah, I mean put it in that, in those terms I would see what most people would be very gracious to extend the time and give people information. So you know, it is not a sales call.
Scott: Yeah. I like you intensely disliked receiving or making those hard sales calls because I just, I hate doing business of any kind or non business of any kind that way it just doesn't feel good. It feels achy and I wouldn't want that in return.
Scott: So do you feel like you could do these couple of things? Certainly there's much, much more that we could do. But just to get you started here on a completely different track that aligns much better with the end result that I know that you want. Could you make this list and then could you, after you identify some of the ways in on this list, be able to begin initiating those contacts and building these relationships through one of those couple of methods?
Robert: Yeah, absolutely. It makes perfect sense. And you know, by Sheer Happenstance, I kind of started a couple of months ago that approach.
Robert: So that's, you know, a more dIrectly to something I knew that was posted or posted. So this is more of the company further upstream or whatever to actually talk to the people and it doesn't make sense because the more I think about it in that terms, I do know of companies that are transitioning. Their staff and transitioning in transitioning and they may or may not be very good candidates, but least their renders trends. Like there's change, there is an element of possibility. So that's a good thing. So yeah, so I, my head, I've already identified a couple of the companies that I think would be a good candidate.
Scott: Very cool. Good for you. Is this helping? Are we, is this helping in any way?
Robert: No, you're helping a lot. The very strange thing is you're actually sounding like you're articulating and verbalizing what I believe in my head to begin with. Because you know, there are cookie cutter roles and that's why people have cookie cutter resume and even this one person who called me up, you know, we're saying that my resume was a typical, and they get like of resumes and it's like I did 30 percent over this and I changed the budget by, you know, x millions of dollars, you know, everybody's doing the same resume. So there's this whole cookie cutter thing going on and people to companies and companies themselves and people are not looking at what would be a good fit for the teens.
Robert:Because sometimes it's like, you know, getting a dog that's on a pure breed, it's a better fit for the family.
Scott: Yeah, choose your analogy here. I totally understand what you're saying.
Robert: Yeah. So that approach doesn't make a lot more sense to me because I look at, I look at the job postings and it's kind of like job posting overload because there's a lower level jobs. Got it all the same for some reason. And then there's the, the VP positions that are super generic. So I don't know, but I think targeting, targeting where I see that I would make a difference. It's probably the first part of the equation. I can totally see it seeing what other people are saying that fit in to the job posting.
Scott: Yeah, totally agreed. And if you think about it, then if you're targeting those areas, if you're targeting those areas that are a better fit anyways, then you're more likely to end up with something that is a better fit versus focusing on essentially like more things and having to filter out or go to a whole bunch of interviews that are a lot less likely to hire you anyways.
Robert: Yeah, yeah, I agree.
Scott: Cool. Hey, well I'm so glad this was helpful for you.
Robert: Yeah. No, I, I, you know, now I have to put it into practical means and do it.
Scott: Very cool. So here's what I'm going to do to help me out with that. I'm going to send you those couple of links. They won't be magic bullets necessarily, but they'll help give you a few other ideas and things that you could actually do and ways that you can actually do some of those things and begin reaching out to some of these folks too, to get ahead of the curve rather than behind the curve. And then, can you please keep me posted? And then also if you need any other type of help or anything, by all means, let us know and we're more than happy. That's what we, that's what we do. it's what we love to do. So be thrilled to pieces to help any other way that we can too.
Robert: Okay, sounds good.
Scott: Hey and, I will send you this audio as well so that you have it both for well for multiple purposes, essentially. One, I definitely want you to go back and listen to yourself. I think that'll, that in itself, I don't know if you've ever like watch yourself on video or listen to your cell phone, audio or anything like that, but it's, it's really, it's always both painful and really revealing and really helpful in the long term at the same time.
Robert: Yes. I the, the painful part. I definitely can.
Scott: Will you pay attention? Just pay attention to the painful parts. Also listened for the parts where you just light up like you're, it feels like if you listen to one section and another section, it's like talking to a completely different person.
Robert: Okay, yeah. I mean, I'm comfortable sharing. No problem. It's a little challenging.
Scott: Yeah, totally agreed. So that's totally okay. Let's get you someplace you're excited about.
Robert: Okay. Sounds good.
Scott: Hey, really, really, really good to meet you.
Robert: Right? Nice to meet you too.
Scott: I will send this over to you probably a little bit later today. I'll talk to you in just or excuse me, I will mail this to you. Email this to you, not snail mail it to you. Yeah, I guess just a little bit later today or early tomorrow morning.
Robert:Okay, sounds good.