425: Alexandra Carter: How To Make Conversations And Negotiations Work For You

Identify what really brings you joy and learn to apply negotiation skills to build a bridge to the role that fits you.


Alexandra Carter
Alexandra Carter , Columbia Law Professor/Author

Alexandra Carter is a professor at Columbia Law School specializing in mediation and negotiation. Every year, she helps thousands of people make deals, resolve conflict, and step confidently into their future.

on this episode

Many college graduates never actually work in the field of study. Alternatively, for those that are able to land a job in their field, the honeymoon phase wears off and then they start to feel like they were meant to do something else entirely.

Alexandra Carter shares how to cultivate relationships, identify what really brings you joy, and then learn to apply negotiation skills to build a bridge to the role that fits you.

What you’ll learn

  • What to do when the “honeymoon phase” is over (and you realize your career is not your passion)
  • How you can go from a career that you’re  not happy with, in your chosen field – to doing what you truly feel you’re meant to do
  • Why it’s important to be transparent when we are negotiating
  • How building relationships helps when negotiating for a new role

Success Stories

I have worked my entire career in behemoth companies (Hershey, Kraft, Pepsi), but I never felt like my creativity could really be stretched. I was often told I have great ideas but there was no way they would happen. So I found myself really discouraged and wanting a more challenging, creative career. And to top it off, I’m making almost $40,000 more a year. I certainly don’t expect that kind of increase every time I make a career move, but I knew my skill value and what I bring to the table. I held my own and negotiated. Now my salary is on par with my male colleagues.

Julie Laughter , Senior Manager, Sustainability

Thank you for guiding me through the negotiation process of asking for a raise. Even in this economy you convinced me to follow through. I also appreciate your thoughts on what I should include in my portfolio; it made the difference in the value added that I was able to present to my supervisor.

Ken Russell, Career Placement Coordinator, United States/Canada

Exactly 5 weeks from when I arrived in Canada I got a full time job, negotiated a higher salary and within the next 3 days I got another offer that pays 33% more. I am happy and very thankful to you, for you gave me support when I was looking and offered great tips.

Ingrid , United States/Canada

I was able to negotiate a higher salary, accepted the offer and I can not be happier! You truly helped make this process as painless as possible! I would (and will) recommend your services to anyone and everyone looking for a new job (or current job pay raise).

Kevin Larsen, Manager of Maintenance, United States/Canada

Alexandra Carter 00:01

And then the first time I went into a New York City courtroom, and I sat down with two people and helped them work something out, it was like I heard a voice like, Morgan Freeman's voice coming down from the heavens saying, "This is it. Alex, you have found the thing that you should do for the rest of your life."

Introduction 00:25

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:49

There's so many college graduates that never actually work in their field of study. On the flip side, there are those that are able to capitalize on the years of hard work in college to land a job in their field. But sometimes when they do that the honeymoon phase wears off. And then they start to feel like they were meant to do something else entirely.

Alexandra Carter 01:09

So I went out. I worked as a lawyer for a period of time that I never forgot. And I worked steadily in my off hours to find ways to build my expertise. Until the moment that Columbia hired me back to teach the course that I took as a student. I am one of those unicorns, who wakes up every day and thinks I truly am doing what I was meant to do on this earth.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:35

That's Alexandra Carter. Alex is a clinical professor of law and is a world renowned negotiation trainer who's helped thousands of people listen to she shares, how to cultivate relationships and identify what really brings you joy. And then learn to apply negotiation skills that help you build a bridge to a role that really actually fits you. Hey, by the way, you might have noticed that we have been doing quite a few negotiation episodes back to back, because it's something we really haven't done on the podcast before extensively. And it's such a big part of creating a career and a life that you actually want. So take a listen to Alex, this is such a great episode. I think you'll love it.

Alexandra Carter 02:15

So I would say I was always a communicator, you know, it's interesting, as a kid, I was really socially shy. But I found that when I had something to say, I really wanted to say it. So if I was active in political work, or there was a cause I was working for that would help me overcome that shyness and get to know people. So gradually, I think I got more comfortable, you know, speaking in public, really flourishing as a communicator during college, you know, then I went to law school, I still Scott had no idea what I wanted to do with my life. And I'd done fine. I was at Columbia Law School, I had gotten in, I was doing relatively well in my classes. But it wasn't until my last year[a] there, that a friend of mine, this is how these major career moments happen. A friend of mine pulls me aside and says, "Hey, Alex. I just took this class, it's called mediation, it involves a lot of talking, I think you'd be great at it." And so I signed up based on that for this course. And this is where I learned that mediation is a process where a third person basically helps people negotiate better, helps them get out of conflict, or helps them make a deal. And when I tell you, Scott, I got trained. And then the first time I went into a New York City courtroom, and I sat down with two people and helped them work something out, it was like I heard a voice like, Morgan Freeman's voice coming down from the heavens saying, "This is it. Alex, you have found the thing that you should do for the rest of your life." I know! It really was that moment, except you can't graduate from law school and become a mediation professor, you have to get experience. So I went out, I worked as a lawyer for a period of time, but I never forgot. And I worked steadily in my off hours to find ways to build my expertise. Until the moment that Columbia hired me back to teach the course that I took as a student, I am one of those unicorns, who wakes up every day and thinks I truly am doing what I was meant to do on this earth.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:27

That is amazing. And as you might imagine, I love that for many different reasons. What took place, I'm super curious, what took place in there to get to the point where Columbia hired you back to teach that course there must be something in there I'm guessing it wasn't just a took the course and then you know, X number of years later, they pick up the phone and they're like, "Alex! Hey, come on over. This is... yeah"

Alexandra Carter 05:00

"This is Columbia, we have all these people who have a lot more experience than you. But come on over anyway." Yeah. So great, great question. After that moment, you know, I tried everything I could, while I was a student to get as much mediation experience as possible. And at graduation, my professor pulled me aside, and she said, "I want you to know, I've had many students over the years, you are one of the very most talented I have ever taught." She kind of spoke that into being for me, she saw excellence, and she recognized it in me. And it caused me to pursue this as a potential career path in the future. And so, Scott, I went on to work at a law firm, where I was putting in 80 hour weeks, I mean, I didn't have a lot of spare time. But in one moment, after I delivered on a project early, I went into my boss, and I said, "Hi, I finished this early. And here's the forum, I'd like you to sign saying that you're going to give me one morning every month to mediate in the local court." And so I had just delivered on time, I put the paper on her desk, she looked at me for a second, and she signed the paper. So I used a moment of leverage to say, "I really want to do this, I'm pro bono work, this charity work, where I'm going to mediate cases for people who can't afford lawyers, I'm going to do this every month. And I started to build my experience back, I kept in touch with my professor. And I tried to make relationships, Scott, every stage of my life, what has helped me get from one thing to the next has been relationships. And so keeping in touch with people at Columbia, and asking people for advice on how to transition to a professor role, is really part of what helped me get there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:49

I so appreciate you sharing that. Because the I have found that the unicorn type positions are absolutely available. And they don't ever happen purely by accident.

Alexandra Carter 07:00

They don't. I think it's a two part formula, if I could share that. One is relationships. So the first is relationships. And the second is I give this advice to students all the time, they say, "how do I find the thing that's going to make me feel like you do everyday at work?" And I tell them to look at the moments over the past month or for the next month,[b] where they feel the most joy, the most flow or that their gifts and talents are being put to the highest purpose, and then write down what they're doing at the time. You know, I think sometimes Scott, people get caught up in the labels. They're like, "Should I be a litigator or an intellectual property lawyer? Should I be a consultant? Or should I be a business executive?" And instead, I encourage people to focus on the verbs, focus on what it is you are doing when you are getting the most joy. And for me, the times that I felt the most joy was when I was mediating, when I was helping people using my communication skills to work things out for themselves. And also, when I was teaching, I had the chance to teach a couple of sections of a class while I was a student at Columbia Law School. And it was just the most incredible feeling of joy I had outside of the classroom. And so when you take teaching, and mediating and you put them together, I'm a mediation professor. And it all makes sense.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:29

It does all make sense. I think there's one other element there too, to stack on top of your two part formula that we're creating here, you in your book and asked for more, you introduce this concept of steering. And I think that not only does this concept of steering apply to this situation, where you're perpetually steering your way back into the type of role or type of opportunity that works for you, but also, as it relates to many different things. So first of all, can you share the metaphor and analogy that I know that you teach about as it relates to Syria and Kayaks?

Alexandra Carter 09:06

Yeah, absolutely. So it's interesting, because I just said, I think my two part formula for finding your career happiness is relationships and sort of thinking of the verbs, right thinking of what you love to do. And in fact, the way I teach negotiation is that it's steering relationships. So I used to think Scott, back when I was a young professional, I was told the same thing, everybody else was told that negotiation is like a back and forth with two people or more over money. And it's something you do right before you get to an agreement. That's negotiation. So if you need to buy a car, God forbid, or you know you are signing up a client or you're trying to get more money at work, that's what you do. And then I went to Hawaii on my honeymoon. And I got an a Kayak on the Wailua river and this guide of the head turned around and said, "Please negotiate your Kayaks to the left, so we can wind up on that beach over there." And that was the moment Scott that my brain clicked. And I remembered, there's more than one way to think about negotiation. When I am negotiating a Kayak toward a gorgeous beach. And don't we all wish we were doing that at this moment, what am I doing? I'm steering. And I realized then that every conversation I had with somebody, it's not just the money conversations, it's not just the once a year, you know, transactional conversations, every conversation I have, is an opportunity to steer that relationship. And when I thought about negotiation that way, not only did it make me really dread it less, because it seemed so much less about just money and so much more about people. But it also piloted me forward. I realized, for example, that if I'm steering relationships, what's the most important relationship of my life, it's the one I have with myself, whether it's walking into a potential deal, or whether it's thinking about your career and where you're going, that's a negotiation. And it starts at home with you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:18

Love it for so many different reasons. And not just the visual image of kayaking in Hawaii. However, I find that it's, first of all, I had never thought about it that way until I read that line. And then, you know, mark that in your book, I like to mark stuff up. And for those who can't see, I have her book labeled with sticky notes left and right. And...

Alexandra Carter 11:41

They are also color coded.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:42

They are also color coded. Yes. To your point. That said, though, you know, I think that that's a much more useful way to think about it, because some of the existing definitions and I want to say that this was also mentioned someplace in the book too, some of the use... existing definitions that are out there in how we think of negotiating just are not that useful to most people. They look nice on, you know, Webster.com or Merriam.com but they're just not that functional or useful. So, tell me a little bit about why you believe that this is a much more useful definition or way to think about it. How does this help in reality?

Alexandra Carter 12:22

Let me give you a good example. So let's take somebody who's looking for a job, for example, right, something that might be highly relevant to your listenership. If you're thinking about the old definition of negotiation, which is you're going back and forth over money, then you're not negotiating until the moment you get the job offer, that's really too late to be steering your relationship with that person, I would want to be teaching that person how to value me, how to think about me and my expertise from the moment of my first conversation. I want to be intentionally steering that relationship, painting a picture with my words of who I am, what my values are, and what I have to contribute. And I want that for your listeners, I don't want you to feel like you have to wait until the money comes up to teach somebody how to value you. When you start earlier, you'll approach that conversation with more intentionality. And you will set yourself up for better results when you do get to the money.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:27

So I think that's a perfect example, let's take someone we're working with right now, I won't share her name. However, let's just call her Jenny for the moment. So Jenny's right in the situation where I think she's done a pretty great job of understanding what she wants. And she's just starting to meet with people like real people in organizations, where she's getting to have interactions in pretty likely eventually, those will lead to the actual formal offer, and what most people think about when negotiation begins. But to your point, it doesn't actually begin that or whether you want to do or not. It begins far, far for that, especially if you're looking at it with the steering metaphor. So let's use Jenny for just a moment here. And let's say okay, what are some of the real world pieces for how we can steer that conversation?

Alexandra Carter 14:19

First of all, if you've been working with Jenny already, then I feel confident that she's tackled the first part of the negotiation, the big part, which is steering yourself. So if I'm in Jenny shoes, you know, I'm thinking about asking myself some really good questions, because Scott, you know, one piece that we haven't filled in for your listeners yet, is people often wonder, well, what's the best way to steer these conversations, Alex? Are you talking about me making the most arguments? And I'm not... the people who negotiate the best, the people who steer most effectively are the people who ask the right questions. And it starts by asking yourself the right questions. So that you arrive to those interviews, you picked out the right interviews from a place of clarity and confidence. So if I were Jenny, I would be sitting down to ask myself, "Okay, first of all, what's the problem I want to solve? You know, what is it that I am looking to accomplish with this job search?" And I'd be thinking about this holistically, not just in terms of a salary, not just in terms of a next move, but in terms of a larger path. Where does this fit in? So and then I would be thinking about my needs, what I call the tangibles and the intangibles, you know, the tangible Scott right are the obvious, you know, I need this amount in salary. I'd like this title. Tangibles are the things that we can, you know, see, touch or count that type of thing. Intangibles are often ignored, but they are the values that give our lives meaning. So I be asking Jenny, if I were working with her, so in addition to the salary, like, "What are the things that you need? What are the values?" you know, and if Jenny said to me, "I need a sense of mission in my work. I need to be at a place where I can always be a learner." I would be writing all of those things down. And then I would ask her, "Oay, Jenny, so what does being connected to the mission look like for you?" And we try as much as we could to make those concrete so that by the time then that Jenny is arriving at the moment, where she's serving the market and figuring out who to meet with, she's doing that from a rock solid place of knowing herself, and what she's out to accomplish at this point in life. I'll pause there to take any questions or comments. Because otherwise, I'm just gonna roll right into what I think she would do in those meetings.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:49

In doing this type of process with few thousands folks, I think that if we just roll right into the next piece, then it's easy to underrate what you have just talked about, and I heard you say it's the most important, but it really is the most important on so many different levels, just because how are you going to be able to steer if you don't know where you're going in... at a really simplistic level. So I appreciate your pointing that out. So what happens next, as a relates to Jenny?

Alexandra Carter 17:20

Yeah, so what happens next is that Jenny's going out, and she's meeting with people. And what I would advise her to do is to focus on the questions that she is asking of those other people. You know, a lot of times we assume that success in a job interview, which by the way, is fully a negotiation. Okay, it's a negotiation long before you get to the money. We assume that that's about you know, all about making your points. But really, a lot of it is about listening. And so I would be asking really open questions. My favorite, of course, the two magic words that change everything is, tell me... I'd be saying, Scott, "Tell me what brought you to this organization. Tell me what you need most at this point in time from this position. Tell me the last star you hired and what made her so effective?" I love 'Tell me' questions because it's the broadest possible question you can ask on any subject. When people come to me in mediation, I don't open by saying to them, "How much money do you want?" I say, "Tell me what's brought you here?" Because that's the way that I get the most information. I start generating some trust, and they can tell me what I need to know, in order to figure out where the target is that I need to hit. You know, I got an email Scott from a woman about 10 days ago[c]. I don't know her. She wrote me an email from my website to tell me that, tell me landed her a job in the middle of Coronavirus, she said "It was magic. I just went into the interview. I kept asking them to tell me about various aspects of the job." She said, "I spent more time listening than I did talking. And at the end, they said they were absolutely bowled over and they made me an immediate offer." So it's really magic for opening up those conversations.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:18

I think I also am a huge fan of 'tell me' questions, even though they're not really questions as you point out too. It's even more magic built in. I think that something jumps into my mind that I heard probably 20 years ago[d], way back when I was learning to coach and I had this person who is facilitating the training and she pointed out I didn't remember what exactly what the training was about or what else was going on. But she pointed out that giving people your undivided attention is one of the biggest gifts that you can give others at this day and age and this was 20 years ago. It's even more so now. And one of the I love the 'tell me' questions. And love what you've already brought up about how they work so effectively is because you're doing that at the same time, you're offering almost a gateway to provide that gift. And it's really for you too, because then you understand so much more and have that information and can put together a more successful discourse. But for that reason, and many more, so I appreciate you pointing out the 'tell me' questions. And it's so much more efficient too.

Alexandra Carter 20:29

It really is, you know, you think about it in the book, I talk about it like fishing with a giant commercial net versus fishing with a line. If you ask a bunch of you know, closed questions, you know, at most you're getting one fish at a time, right? With one 'tell me' question, you're doing the list of like 10 others, it's really efficient. And also it does when you give somebody that attention, guess what? They want to do deals with you, they want to spend more time with you. And that can only be a great thing going forward.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:00

So tell me about the other side of the title here, because the book name has "Ask for More: 10 Questions to Negotiate Anything", but we haven't even talked about the questions yet. Well, we've alluded to them a little bit. But help me understand that the question is, especially as it relates to the idea of the mirror in the window.

Alexandra Carter 21:19

Yeah, sure. So few minutes ago, when we talked about Jenny and her job search, and I was saying that, you know, it starts at home with her, that is the portion of negotiation that I call the mirror, you know, Scott, and this is the number one mistake, I would say that I find people make, even if they're pretty senior in their career, you know, their UN diplomats, their managers, 10, 15 years[e] into their practice, they don't quite know the right questions to ask themselves to steer that internal conversation. And so a couple of the questions I mentioned for Jenny, thinking about what's the problem I want to solve, you know, start by diagnosing the problem or figuring out which beach you want to end up on, before you start paddling and putting in all that effort, or thinking about what it is that you need both the tangible and the intangible. Those are examples of questions that I call the mirror, you know, and Scott, sometimes I think people wonder, I can tell they're looking at me, not you, but others. They're looking at me and we're thinking, "Alex, you know, the sounds great. Do I really have time for this?" Like, you know...

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:29

Nobody has time for this, Alex.

Alexandra Carter 22:31

Alex, it's a pandemic, you know. And what I want to tell people is, "You don't have time not to." It's actually less time than you think. I go through these questions myself. And these days, I can ask myself, the five mirror questions that are in "Ask for More" in 15 minutes, the number one comment I've gotten, I've done these questions with executives all over the world is, "I can't believe how little time it took to save me enormous amounts of time on the back end." So that is the mirror it's asking yourself question. And then once you sit down with somebody else, whether it's in person or over zoom these days, the whole other subject, right, negotiating virtually, you know, you are trying to open up a window between you and somebody else. And so tell me, is the first example of a question that I would use in any situation. And you know, Scott, because you read the book that I give personal examples with my daughter, as well as examples from work as to how effective that question is. So those are the two sections in the book. Five are the mirror and five questions are the window.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:38

What do you believe that... as you think, let's go back to Jenny situation for just a bit here. And, yes, negotiation absolutely starts early on, right. We've made that point. I think that people pretty well, I understand that. But what if people are coming late to the game in how they're thinking about this? What if Jenny situation was slightly different? And Jenny has been further along in the process, maybe she has somewhat of an idea of what she wants, but she's getting ready to receive a job offer. How does this situation change for and what advice would you give if people are finding themselves in that stage? And maybe they're open to thinking about it holistically, but now they're coming a little bit late to the game?

Alexandra Carter 24:25

Yeah, absolutely. So first of all, it's never too late to teach someone how to value you. I've had people hear a talk of mine or hear me on a podcast after getting a job offer and saying, "I think this looks great." And then they hear and they read and they think I need to go back in and start to talk to them about the future and more than I'm going to need, never too late. So here's what I would do. I would return if you get the job offer. Okay, so Jenny gets this offer. I would ask a lot of questions about it. Right? So instead of feeling pressure in the moment to respond right there, I would take it piece by piece and say, "Alright, so this is the salary. Tell me more about what this represents. Here are the other components. Okay. Talk to me about this and how this normally works at the company." Alright, then I would go back, I would examine it, Jenny can at that point, look at, "Alright, what do I need? I'm going to write down what it is that I'm looking for. So I can be really grounded when I go in. And then I'm going to go in, and I'm going to ask for what I need." And I wonder if Jenny might be like, some of your other listeners, and is worried she's going to get a 'No' I think a lot of women in particular fear the No. Right? Like is if somebody says no, that means it's a referendum on our worthiness as a person. And it means that we need to crawl out of the office and never speak of it again. Absolutely not. If Jenny gets a 'No,' I want her simply to ask this question. "What are your concerns?" I actually worked with an executive. So she's probably now, let's say 20 years[f] into her career, okay? She is at a company, she gets a promotion. And she's asking for money. And they say, no. They go back and forth. She asks them, what are your concerns, and they tell her eventually, "We're at the very top of the band for this position, we really want to make it work, we're hoping there might be something else." So she went and said to them, "What other ideas do you have to get me to the place where we can make this appropriate for my position?" And they said, "Well, some other buckets we have might be travel money." So this executive went back to the drawing board. And she looked, and she realized that this new job was going to take her away from her husband for two weeks out of every month[g] across the country. So she went back and said, "I'd like for my husband to join me on one trip a month, for the week. All expenses paid, you know, put up with me." And they said, "Absolutely. You got it." Asking what people's concerns are sometimes can help you turn a no into a yes. But even if it doesn't, it tells you another way to get something else you need.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:24

I love it. Thank you so much for providing the language as well, I think that is so helpful to be able to take this from a theoretical standpoint, and turn it into action too. What do you believe are some of the biggest missed opportunities, especially when we're at this type of situation that we've just mentioned with Jenny as an example, or the other situation with the executive that you were talking about? What do you think are some of the those biggest missed opportunities for people?

Alexandra Carter 27:55

Yeah, sometimes I think people feel timing pressure, that they don't need to feel, you know, I would tell your listeners, Scott, to really use timing to your advantage. If somebody has made you an offer, they want you. And unless there are extraordinary circumstances, they're only going to watch you more if you take a little bit of time to really consider your offer. And so I would urge people not to make the mistake of thinking that you need to immediately respond. You know, Scott, this actually, I went through this when I negotiated my first salary and believe it or not, because of the jobs I've held, I negotiated my first salary in my 30s. And I went in, I had my power suit on, I was super nervous. And they came in slightly above what I was expecting. And I could tell that they thought I might answer on the spot. But I managed to keep my face neutral. And I said, "Let me run my numbers. Thank you so much." Great start to the conversation. You're making the gesture that's, you know, that's like, you know, keep the game face on. And so I did that. And I'm so glad I did. Because I received advice that changed my whole life. I left the office that day, I didn't know what to do. So I call the senior woman in the field. This gets to the second mistake that people sometimes make. And I said to her, "So I got this great offer. Should I just take it? It's more than what I thought." And she said, "I'm going to tell you what to do, Alex. You're going to go in there, and you're going to ask for more." And I said, "I'm gonna ask for more?" And she said, "Yes. Because when you teach someone how to value you, you teach him how to value all of us. And so if you're not going to go in there and do it for yourself, I want you to do it for the woman who is coming after you, do it for the sisterhood." And that gets to the second thing, Scott, the second mistake people make which is that thinking, asking for more is a selfish act, when it is not. When you ask for more and stand in your value, you make it easier for the next woman who's coming after you. So take your time. And remember that knowing your value is a community service, it really helps other people.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:23

I so appreciate that on many different levels, one, addressing the mindset that has a tendency to pop up around asking for more, and that is selfish, it is not. And I find that it's difficult to help other people in any way, any group of people at any time from a place of scarcity. That is, it's a really difficult thing to do. But when you are able to not just ask for more, but obtain more for yourself in one way or another, that gives you a different ability to be able to share that in a variety of different ways. So I really, really appreciate you pointing that out, saying that sharing that story, too. I know we are... I feel like this conversation could go like five or six hours here. And we wouldn't run out of things to talk about. However, I know that we're getting close on time here. And I wanted to just ask what parting advice would you have for our listeners, as it relates to thinking about negotiation holistically. And not just... we've pretty well covered a lot of things centered around job offer and leading up to job offer. But from a more holistic standpoint, which I know you're a huge fan of, what what advice would you give to HTYCers out there?

Alexandra Carter 31:46

Absolutely. I think that negotiations, whether they are at work or at home, they operate best when we're transparent. And that means, first of all, being really transparent with yourself, I think, Scott, in this age of Instagram filters, it's so easy to want to put a filter on ourselves. And I've worked with so many people who when I ask what they need, they write down what other people think they should need. So the first step really is to get transparent with yourself and write down things as they are, as you are really get to know and to value yourself. That knowledge is your seat of power in negotiation. And then when you're approaching other people, if you do it from a place of transparency, it's amazing what kind of results you get. I've coached people in, you know, who were asking for a job promotion. And they didn't realize that they could just go in and say, "I know it's a pandemic. But I want you to know how much I love working for this company. And someday I see myself in a leadership role. And I'm here today to ask you how we can work together to get there." That kind of transparency makes people trust you. And when they trust you, they want to be in community with you, you know, and the same transparency that I, you know, tried to execute on and the office, I carry it over into my most treasured personal relationships with my husband, my daughter and my family. And I find that when I speak plainly, and I speak from the heart, those are the conversations that produce the most fruit. And so I guess that's what I like to leave your listeners with that most human beings at our hearts want the same thing, which is people we can trust. And if you are somebody who gains people's trust, you are a great negotiator.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:51

That is amazing, and also a great place to leave it. I also want to point out that if you're not transparent with yourself, and you're putting down other people's, what they think you should be asking for, then that means you're going to get the unicorn job for someone else.

Alexandra Carter 34:08

That's so right.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:10

That doesn't help anybody as it turns out. So hey, I really appreciate you taking the time and making the time and this has been a ton of fun. You're delightful by the way. I'm so glad we got to have this time. And thank you for writing a great book. There's a lot of books, I've read a lot of books, but I genuinely enjoyed it. And I would recommend going and get it if you're listening to this out there "Ask for More: 10 Questions to Negotiate Anything" was wonderful and well worth the read regardless of whether or not you are in a job offer negotiation or anything else right this very moment. Thank you.

Alexandra Carter 34:43

Well, thank you, Scott. This has been just like a conversation between friends and I've really enjoyed it and I look forward to staying in touch.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:50

Absolutely. Where else can people go if they're interested in either the book or you?

Alexandra Carter 34:56

Absolutely. So, you know, by the way, I tell people that any time we train together, they're now my colleagues for life. And so I insist that people stay in touch with me, tell me everything you're doing, you can find me on my website, alexcarterasks.com, and you can also find me on Instagram, on LinkedIn, and very reluctantly on Twitter.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:22

Most of our episodes on Happen To Your Career often showcase stories of people that have identified and found and take steps to get to work that they are absolutely enamored with, that matches their strengths, and is really what they want in their lives. And if that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that is awesome, you can actually get on the phone with us and our team. And we can have a conversation to find the very best way that we can help. It's super informal. And we try to understand what your goals are, where you want to go, and what specifically you need our help with. And then we figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like, and sometimes even customize that type of help. And then we make happen, really easy way to schedule a conversation with our team is just go to scheduleaconversation.com, that's scheduleaconversation.com and find a time that works best for you, we'll ask you a few questions as well. And then we'll get you on the phone and figure out how we can get you going to work that you really want to be doing that fits your strengths, that you love, and you're enamored with. Hey, I can't wait to hear from you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:44

Okay, so here's something you may have experienced before. You know, you bring value to your organization. You also know, you'd really like to be paid much more than what you're currently making. The real question is, how do you go about asking for it? How do you begin? How do you do it in a way that is actually going to allow you to get what you want?

Justin 37:07

Overall, I think it'll ultimately turn into about a 20% raise over the next few years. So salary wise, it was about a 12% raise. And then, you know, my other forms of compensation will roll in over the next few years. And that'll be another, you know, 8 or 9%. So it's really well worth the effort.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:29

That's Justin, he's a technical engineer, who came to us for help when he really wanted to negotiate a raise with his company. He'd been approached by recruiters with other companies, but really just wanted to stay with the same organization he was at. He didn't want to make a transition. It's just that he knew that if he went someplace else, he could make so much more. So this was, as you might imagine, quite a predicament. So you're gonna hear Justin, he's gonna tell us a little bit about his career trajectory. But I want you to listen for what he did to be able to stay with the company that he really wanted to be at and make the amount of money that he wanted to have, which, and he did by negotiating his salary, renegotiating his salary, right? He got a raise. Actually, it also happened to be more than the amount that he thought he even wanted. All that and plenty more next week[h] right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep. And you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out!

[a][03:06] @joshua@happentoyourcareer.com

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[b][07:20] @joshua@happentoyourcareer.com

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[c][18:49] @joshua@happentoyourcareer.com

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[d][19:34] @joshua@happentoyourcareer.com

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[e][21:44] @joshua@happentoyourcareer.com

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[f][26:12] @joshua@happentoyourcareer.com

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[g][26:59] @joshua@happentoyourcareer.com

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[h][38:23] @joshua@happentoyourcareer.com

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