669: How To Make the Right Career Decision – Career Advice from Jim’s Career Pivot Story

(00:00) Jim King: When I was ending my last role, I had this feeling of, “Am I doing the right thing?”

(00:05) Scott Anthony Barlow: How do you actually know if you're making the right decision for your career?

(00:08) Jim King: That imposter syndrome comes up, right? Am I in the right field, and am I in the right type of industry? In the right company?

(00:17) Scott Anthony Barlow: Jim King was at the point where he knew he needed a change, and he was questioning everything.

(00:22) Jim King: I tend to be a perfectionist. The hard part is knowing that I won't know everything right away. Things take time, and being okay with the uncertainty and being comfortable with the uncomfortable,

(00:37) Scott Anthony Barlow: It required a very different approach.

(00:39) Jim King: I was tracking my networking. I got up to about 65 individual networking calls.

(00:45) Scott Anthony Barlow: But that difference wasn't just in his job search. The activities that made a life-changing difference happened way before he clicked into an application.

(00:53) Jim King: Clarity equals confidence. So that clarity piece really helped me define who I am now, how I've evolved, as well as where I want to go.

(01:02) Scott Anthony Barlow: Listen to Jim's description of his strengths and what he values the most.

(01:07) Jim King: My strengths are empathy, responsibility, input, belief, connectedness. My values are transparency, integrity of a strength and a value, development, empathy, and support, and looking for those things in my next role.

(01:23) Scott Anthony Barlow: That level of clarity is uncommon in the world, and it caused him to show up differently to job interviews.

(01:30) Jim King: Before I even got my thank you out after my first interview with the hiring manager, the recruiter was reaching out to me, “When are you available to meet with the next person?”

(01:38) Scott Anthony Barlow: This is Happen to Your Career, the podcast that brings you real people, real transformations, and the courage to do work that truly fits. If you haven't already subscribed, click Follow right now so you don't miss any new episodes.

On this episode, you'll hear how Jim went from leaving a job that wasn't a fit to something far better than he could have imagined, leaving an HR operations team.

(02:00) Jim King: Now I'm helping facilitate courses on human relations and personal development and professional development, and getting outside your comfort zone, giving public speaking, giving talks. I'm helping other people get to where they want to be, and talk about full circle moment.

(02:17) Scott Anthony Barlow: Here's my conversation with Jim.

(02:19) Jim King: So my overarching theme, I think, is clarity equals confidence. So that clarity piece in the very beginning of coaching is what really helped me define who I am now, how I've evolved as well as where I want to go, whether that's right now in the future and just having the confidence to network, interview and potentially and ultimately, land different opportunities, 'cause there were three things that came up over the last few months.

(02:48) Scott Anthony Barlow: Let's go way back for a moment here. What led you to want to make a change in the first place?

(02:53) Jim King: When I was ending my last role, I had this feeling of, “Am I doing the right thing? Am I in the right field? Am I in the right type of industry? In the right company?” And for me, I just knew that I didn't want to be on a team of one anymore, and I was missing that team aspect and the camaraderie and the collaboration that brings, and I ultimately wanted to do coaching because I really wanted to define, redefine myself. That's what I've been telling people is like I've defined, redefined my strengths, my values.

And that's what I really wanted to do, like figure out who I am so I can show up authentically in interviews and working conversations.

(03:39) Scott Anthony Barlow: That's really interesting in terms of the defining, redefining, because I think that is a, it's a lifelong journey, like it is over and over again, and that is in many ways what growth is, right? But for you, when you talk about defining and redefining, why was that so important to you at that time?

(03:57) Jim King: It was so important because, like I said, with the imposter syndrome, with that coming up, you have these questions of like, who am I, right? And you evolve, and you grow. I'm someone who's very invested in personal development, professional development, just a big advocate for both of those things. So I like to put that energy back into myself, and it was a difficult time for me in my personal life. So I was not only experiencing a job change, but there were just some other outside factors that I'm just like, really, who am I? And just wanted to focus back on me and focus on what's next for me in my career.

So that was really hard. And in that time also losing my job and just really figuring out that it just wasn't the right fit for me, and ultimately making the decision to move on. So with those two big life changes, right, to really take the time to be intentional, and that's what everyone has said, that's what I've been telling people, but people have seen it too, right, Scott? They've said to me, “Jim, like, you're being so intentional about your search.” And there's been times in my career where I've looked back, and I'm like, “You know what? I just need to take a break and really figure out who I am and what I want next and where I want to go.” And coaching really helped put me on a trajectory.

(05:16) Scott Anthony Barlow: I heard you just a moment ago say, “There's been times in my career where I wanted to take a break to give a time, space, bandwidth,” whatever, but had you done that in the past, or was this the first time where you gave yourself that space?

(05:30) Jim King: This was really the first time, the only other longest time where I was out of work since graduating from college, we'll just say over 10 years ago now. But this, for me, was almost five months, and, you know, I really was able to dedicate the time.

(05:44) Scott Anthony Barlow: That's really interesting. And I think the other thing I'm really curious about for you, since you had a few different elements going on all at the same time, what do you think helped in your situation by having some of those things happen at the same time, and what do you think made it more difficult? Because let's be honest, that's a lot to happen all at once.

(06:04) Jim King: Scott, you know what I've always been told, I'm a relatively positive person, right? But people see all that on the outside, and a lot of the normal things that people experience emotionally, as far as when you're going through life changes, you don't get to see a lot of that, right?

But this time allowed me to just really focus inward. So I've tried to have that mindset throughout coaching in the past six months, even now as I've started a new role and just stepping into new opportunities. The challenges, of course, all of the difficult things that come up when you're doing that inward type of work on yourself to really figure out who you are, so you can, I'll say this again, to show up authentically as yourself in your next role, professionally, even personally. In the very beginning, like searching for that clarity was really helpful. So I'll say that's one of the positives, but again, the other side of the coin is that's hard. It's hard for people to look inward and to do that work and be intentional.

(07:02) Scott Anthony Barlow: I mean, I hear you saying, “Hey, I'm gonna be intentional this time. This is the first time I've given myself space,” also at the same time, you said that was really difficult. What were those difficult parts for you?

(07:14) Jim King: You know what, honestly, like mental health has been a big challenge in my life, and that's been something that I've faced over the past five plus years. And it's something that I'm learning to manage. So that's something that presents challenges in my life, just generally, we'll say.

(07:32) Scott Anthony Barlow: How does that show up for you? Because I think the other thing I heard you say that might feel to anybody who's listening to this like, “Hey, I just heard Jim say, ‘I'm a really positive person.’” And you described other people as perceiving you that way, too, and also, on first glance, that can feel like it's almost in conflict with mental health challenges at the same time. So how does that show up for you, and how do those things happen and coexist in your world?

(07:58) Jim King: Yeah, I'm my own worst critic. We're all our own worst critic. Through coaching with Laura, she's like, “You are that high achiever, right? So, you want everything, and I tend to be a perfectionist, so you want everything to be right.”

For me, the hard part is knowing that I won't know everything right away. Things take time, and being okay with the uncertainty and being comfortable with the uncomfortable. So again, to answer your question, Scott, like how it shows up for me, is just giving myself the time that I deserve to really understand things, to just know that things don't happen overnight.

(08:39) Scott Anthony Barlow: So, take me back to a time when you were starting to go through that internally focused work, and it was getting really difficult for you, and it was starting to be outside your comfort zone, as we just talked about here a moment ago. Take a moment and think, take me back to that particular time.

(08:59) Jim King: I think other factors play into it, right? When those things were heightened, it was harder to do the work on yourself. And I'll say this, we can even go back to saying, you know, what were the obstacles and challenges? It's looking in the mirror, right? Just being like, okay, maybe I don't wanna say problem, but maybe like the only thing that you can count on to change is yourself, right?

And just like having that mirror in front of you. I can't even pinpoint one instance because there were several times where I was on either on the phone with a family member or a friend and just really upset and saying like, “I'm out of work for this long. I feel like a loser.” But just knowing that I'm not right, like, and people won't see me that way.

So the specific instances, it's not just one, there were several over the summer where I was having those really vulnerable conversations with people close in my life to say, “I feel like a loser. What am I doing?” That, emotionally, I think, was the hardest part, especially working on managing mental health as well.

(09:58) Scott Anthony Barlow: So how did you handle that? How did you work through that?

(10:01) Jim King: I had the right support system. So I guess if I do say there's one instance where it's started to be challenging, it was actually in the beginning of coaching where we did the exercise of clarity and reaching out to those close to you, and that was challenging because when you get all of this positive feedback about yourself and you're going through all of these hard things in your life, it's hard to believe it, right?

Like you're reading all of these positive things, and you're like, “Are you sure? Because that's not what I tell myself.”

(10:30) Scott Anthony Barlow: So what worked for you, like to move through that particular moment and start to try to pay attention to what all of these people are saying, that is how they're experiencing you?

(10:42) Jim King: The first thing that comes to mind is just immediately like having conversations with people and saying it out loud, right?

(10:50) Scott Anthony Barlow: So, like you're normalizing it.

(10:51) Jim King: Yeah. Normalize like who you are and how you are, actually showing up. And when other, like I said, when other people tell you, it's hard to believe it. And what worked, I think, was just having conversations with people and saying it out loud. My strengths are empathy, responsibility, input, belief, connectedness.

My values are transparency, integrity of a strength and a value development, empathy, and support. And looking for those things in my next role, but I was able to authentically show up. Again, I'll say it authentically show up as myself when I was having these conversations, and it led to the clarity, led to confidence, and that just pointed me in the right direction for the right opportunities for me at this time.

(11:37) Scott Anthony Barlow: But how did you go from there to actual real-world opportunities? Let's talk through some of the pieces of that and the milestone along the way. What happened next after you started doing that reflective work, starting to have those conversations with others, and share what your strengths and talents and who you are in a way that is starting to feel normal to you? What happened after that?

(12:01) Jim King: The first thing I think of is networking and how I'm able to network differently. One of the opportunities that was presented to me that someone saw in me was being the VP of membership for an organization here local to Philly. It's called Association for Talent Development.

And the way I was able to network over the past few months, that's something that somebody saw in me and was like, “Jim, like you're already doing this, so it makes sense for you to step into a role like this.” So I'll say networking differently. Laura has shown me a lot of different ways to network, to reach out to people who have been in the role or at the company, and just ask them about their experience and take interest in the other person and the company and their experience in working there to really feel, make them feel like a search that you're doing and you want it to be a fit for you as well, right? And also building the relationship with somebody, which is so important.

(12:56) Scott Anthony Barlow: One of those times where you were able to reach out and then have a conversation with someone and start to build that relationship, what did that look like? How did you reach out?

(13:08) Jim King: Yeah. It was on LinkedIn, and I saw a job that I was interested in, and I really just wanted to get to know the company and someone who's in a similar role.

So I did the search on LinkedIn and found someone who was in a similar role and just reached out and said, you know, “I'm really interested of what it's like to work in the HR department at this company, and can I just have 15 minutes of your time?” Being really specific about what you're looking for, “Hey, I'm really interested in just learning about you and what you're doing and your experience.” Making it about them.

And after that conversation, we were able to talk about a role that was available. And they said, “I think you'd be a great fit. If you can send me your resume, I will pass it along to the hiring manager.” And that got me an interview. It ultimately didn't work out because I was beat out by an internal candidate.

That was a way that I was able to use those tools to connect with someone on a personal level, and for them to say, “No, based on what I'm hearing, I'm gonna recommend you for this role.”

(14:11) Scott Anthony Barlow: What did you hear in that conversation that caused you to say, “Yes, I think this organization could actually be a potential fit for me.”

(14:18) Jim King: In my work, I've always been able to talk about the impact that I want to have on people first, and then ultimately an organization. And the way I was able to have that conversation candidly with a person that I just met on the phone, as well as them telling me about what their culture is like, what their team is like. I said in the beginning, I wanted a team, a larger team again, and what really got me excited was hearing about the culture at this specific company and how their department operates, what they do for their team, which led me to know that it was really about the support of people and the elements of fulfilling work, what we've talked about in coaching.

And for me, it's aligning my values, and it's that quality of life. Those three things came up for me a lot and ultimately helped in the interview process and helped me narrow down the company that I want to be with and the people that I wanna work with. That's so important, right? You want to know that you have a supportive group of people with you to rely on, and that was very important to me.

(15:17) Scott Anthony Barlow: What happened next as you continued on? Because if I remember correctly, there was more than just one interaction before, miraculously, you got your later job offer.

(15:28) Jim King: So, talk about supportive people. I was tracking my networking. At some point, like towards the end, I stopped tracking, but I got up to about 65 individual networking calls, and that is easily a hundred. Just having individual conversations with people. So talk about, again, talk about the support of people, you know, having your network and having that support in those who are also going through a transition.

So for me, that's what was next. Building your network and just having that support outside of your organization that you work for is so important as well.

(16:05) Scott Anthony Barlow: Tell me more about “Be picky on offers, not interviews.” Where does that come from, and what does that mean for you?

(16:12) Jim King: Yeah, because it's all about exploration, right? Sometimes you don't know until you actually have the conversation. Something might come up in that conversation. You might look at a job description, but you don't know who you're talking to. You don't know what the team is like. You don't know what the culture is like, and that may be important to you.

And for me, I found out that that's what it was important. You're just looking at a job description. You're not knowing, you're not getting the full picture by declining just the conversation. Like, what hurt could it do? Even if it's just a networking conversation, it's practice, right? So having a general sense, right, but not being picky because Scott, like you, never know what can come up in those conversations and just being open and having that open mind and having the mindset of this could go somewhere. And that's how I landed my role.

(16:55) Scott Anthony Barlow: When you first heard about that role, and you're first having that conversation, and she's like, “Hey, are you interested in this?” And you had that thought of, “Sure, I'll go and see.” At that point in time, did you have any bias? Like, “I don't know if this is going to work out.” How were you thinking about that at that moment?

(17:14) Jim King: Scott, so much bias. I looked at the job description. I'm like, “I don't really know…” Again, for me, you know, it was about the people and just like having that open mind. And I think it was a day or two later after I spoke with this person, and then I talked to a recruiter.

And it turned into a longer call, and she said, “I want to just move you forward and have you skip.” We already did our screening just from our networking here, and that led me to the next steps in the interview process, and was able to meet with the hiring manager, then meet with someone else on the team, and go through the entire process.

(17:47) Scott Anthony Barlow: So when you kept going through that process, what do you remember learning about where it's like, “Yeah, this actually might be a fit in one way or another.”

(17:58) Jim King: So industry came up, and when I met the people, everything just seemed to go smoothly. It was just so smooth and efficient. And before I even got my thank you out after my first interview with the hiring manager, the recruiter was reaching out to me, “When are you available to meet with the next person?” I'm like, “Okay, they have their recruiting process down.” And the candidate experience was important. It is important in any organization, and for me, that stood out and made a great first impression.

(18:26) Scott Anthony Barlow: The other thing that I wanted to ask you about is you've got this LinkedIn banner that says life begins at the end of your comfort zone, and I believe that, and I found that to be true in many different ways. What was the most outside of your comfort zone, time period, or instance, or thing that occurred throughout the last six months here?

(18:47) Jim King: It's the doubt for sure that plays into some of the mental health challenges. It was just making sure that I didn't tell myself that's not, because clearly, like we said, here's all these people.

Here's data, right? Let's talk about information. Here's all this data that people say that they see in you, and you're like, “But am I really that? The things that I'm experiencing in life right now don't really point to those things, so how can you believe it?” So it's the doubt. That comes in, you know, I think as they get to know, again, as you get to know somebody and understand their types of challenges, even those really close to me, it's even hard for them to understand, and when they don't, that's frustrating.

And the other difficult part about this whole process, just believing that you are all of those things again, and not trying to harp on or focus on, I should say, what other people are thinking. “Oh, well, like what really happened? What's going on in Jim's life? Why can't he hold it together?” There's people who don't have that level of empathy that I feel like that I have, and that there are certainly people out there, but they don't show you that they have that level of understanding and they will simply just go based off of like maybe other facts or other information, rather than coming from a stance of, “Let me really understand this person.” Right? So that's really hard, Scott.

(20:12) Scott Anthony Barlow: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Is there anything else, knowing that this is such a challenge for people in order to maintain mental health, where you're going through all these other challenges at the same time, is there anything else that helped you do that?

(20:26) Jim King: I go back to the supportive people piece as well as the tools that you can utilize, right? Like I can't tell you how many walks that I went on this summer, and the first one that I went on where I discovered HTYC and the podcast, and–

(20:42) Scott Anthony Barlow: So glad you went for a walk, by the way, Jim,

(20:44) Jim King: Like career transition podcast. “Well, what could possibly go wrong? Like, let me listen to this. Okay. Happen To Your Career. First thing that comes up.” So, yeah, just using those tools and resources available to you, your supportive people. I have a few people who were really in my corner through this difficult time, and making sure that I leaned on them, but also having a separate group of people.

There was three people who, in the beginning, and it's challenging, right? Like staying on top of all of that. But for a good chunk of time there, there were three people specifically who are a part of my life, but in different capacities, who were the support of like, here's what's going on this week of updates and hold me accountable.

It's someone that I previously worked with, it's a neighbor of mine who's also a friend, a good friend of mine who I've known since college, and that I talk to about professional things. So, all that to say, the supportive people and using your tools and resources to get through those mental health challenges.

It was a period of transition for me, for my body, my mind, everything. So I just had to make sure that I was really taking care of myself. And it's always a journey, right? That never ends. Yeah. I just feel like I had the opportunity to really focus my energy back on myself, and it made me think. So, one of the opportunities that had come up for me is working with a training company as a graduate assistant.

So I went through this course, and again, it was time for me to invest in myself, something that I always wanted to do, reached out to someone who worked there and who I've seen present before, and it was finally the time for me to invest in myself in this way where I can actually take a course that I wanted to and dedicate at the time.

And that led to me being a graduate assistant. So now I'm helping facilitate courses on human relations and personal development and professional development, and getting outside your comfort zone and giving public speaking, giving talks, and I'm helping other people get to where they want to be and talk about full circle moment and being able to give back, right?

Like, here's how I invested in myself, but here's how I'm helping other people now. And where's this going to take me? Where's this opportunity going to take me?

(22:49) Scott Anthony Barlow: What advice would you give to someone who was in the same place that you were six months ago?

(22:55) Jim King: Be patient, knowing that it is a process. It's not gonna happen overnight, and again, cliche, maybe, you know, what you put into something is really what you do get out of it.

So, really dedicating your time and energy to it when you're doing that exploration is very important. Yeah. So what you put in is what you're gonna get out, and be patient. It is process and trusting it. Yeah, that's what I would say.

If you're ready to stop believing the stories that are actually keeping you stuck and start creating the career and the life that you want, drop me an email directly, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Put “Conversation” in the subject line. We'll connect you with the right person on our team, and we'll figure out the very best way that we can support you.

Happen To Your Career - Meaningful Work, Career Change, Career Design, & Job Search