352: How to Pivot to a New Career by Transferring Your Skills

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TRANSFERRING YOUR SKILLS IS NOT REALLY A SECRET

Throughout your career, you have accumulated a number of skills. But you’ve realized that your role doesn’t actually fit you and you want to make a change.

But, how do you take your skills and communicate them in a way that is appealing to employers?

Today, we’re sharing a training we did talking about this very subject:

How to Pivot to a New Career by Transferring Your Skills

Some of the specific things that you’ll learn are:

  • How to pivot into a new career when you believe your skills and experience keep holding you back
  • How to return to a former career after 5 or more years
  • How to get hired when it feels like you might lack experience or knowledge
  • The next most effective step for your career change

Introduction 0:04
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what it does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Joshua Rivers 00:28
Route your career, you've accumulated a number of skills. But you've also realized that your role doesn't actually fit you and you also want to make a change. But how do you take your skills and communicate them in a way that's appealing to employers? We get that type of question all the time. And so today, we're sharing a training that we did just a couple weeks ago about this very subject. And that is, how to pivot to a new career by transferring your skills. Now, some of the specific things that you're going to learn are how to pivot into a new career when you believe that your skills and experience keep holding you back, and how to return to a former career after five years or more, and also how to get hired when it feels like you might lack experience or knowledge. And then also, you'll hear the next most effective step for your career change. And so without any further ado, let's jump over to Scott, for this first question in this training,

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:39
And this one comes from Dawn, "how do I pivot to a new career when my skills and experience keep holding me back?" All right, this is actually a really similar question that we've had from a lot of different people over and over again. And I think it's such a great question too. It also is a place that people find themselves in, pretty regularly. And what I've found for many people liked Dawn or for maybe this is you too, has, don't hesitate to let me know if this is you as well. But what I found is that even if you're in a, you know, pretty good job, even if you're making a decent amount of money or whatever else, and there's a lot of good things, that doesn't necessarily, that isn't necessarily enough to be fulfilling, and what we find, especially if you've worked in that type of occupation, that type of role or even a company for a long period of time, then it can be really difficult to understand how to make a move to something else and make a pivot in one way or another. Often that might be called a pivot. So, what can you do about that when you find yourself in that situation? Honestly, the very best thing, this is gonna sound a little bit counterintuitive. And if you listen to the Happen To Your Career podcast before, then you might know that we're pretty biased about taking lots of action, absurd amounts of action as what leads to momentum, that's what creates magic in many different ways for people. That said, this is not gonna sound like action at first. Okay, so one of the biggest things that I think can help for people that are in Dawn's situation, is making sure that you spend a little bit of time upfront to clarify specifically what creates a great career next step for you. Now, there's a lot of ways that when we're helping out, we do this with our clients, with our students, we use a tool that I created, I guess it's been about eight or nine years ago at this point for myself, called an ideal career profile. And it's a really simple tool, you can just think about it as building a checklist almost of what you need when you go and make this change. Now, why does this sound counterintuitive? Because that does not sound like it's gonna help Dawn at all, it actually making the change. But here's what I found, I found that when you're in Dawn's situation, you can do a bunch of activity and I can give you all kinds of techniques to shift to another job. However, that may not take care of the actual underlying issues about why, you know, Dawn or you may want to change in the first place. So it's really important to make sure that you understand where it is that you're going and what and where the destination is. And if you've listened to the podcast, by the way, let me know in the chat if you listen to the Happen To Your Career podcast, super excited if we got podcast listeners here. However, you might have heard me say this before on podcast that, if you don't understand where the destination is, if you don't understand where you're going, it's gonna be really difficult to get there and you might find yourself in the exact same place. And you might, you know, make a job change and, you know, go to all that effort and everything like that, and realize that when you get there, the names and the faces have changed, however, is still not fulfilling, still not meaningful, maybe it pays as much and maybe we made a pivot, and maybe it's not doing the exact same thing, but I want you to get there and look around after six months after the honeymoon period wears off and like, "oh, my goodness, how did I do this? Like, I didn't think about all these other things." So it's important to spend a little bit of time, almost the same way about I heard this quote before, I think it comes from Abraham Lincoln or George Washington for somebody may it's totally escaping me which one about sharpening that, you know, sharpening the axe before chopping down the tree, if I have six hours to chop down the tree, four hours of that is going to be spent sharpening my axe. That is part of the reason that we're doing this, as part of the reason that set up to be able to make a pivot, that's going to be useful to you. Otherwise, it might not be worth making the pivot at all. Okay, so here's one other thought to Dawn, when you understand what that destination is, that actually starts to give you some of the answers as to how you can make the pivot. It's really, really difficult for me to sit here, you know, give an example like behind the scenes, we might spend months with people getting to know them, helping them define what it is that I actually want, really customizing what type of techniques and tactics and approaches they're going to use behind the scenes to make a job change and make a career change and make a pivot and without having done that upfront work, I can only give you examples, I can only give you ways that it might happen necessarily not necessarily going to give really useful advice about how to pivot. But what I do know is that instead, if I have that destination figured out, a lot of those answers become much more apparent. For example, if I want to make a move into HR, you know, I did that person I made a move from operations into HR, then I can begin to understand what types of skill sets they're looking for, I can begin to understand who in the organization I need to build relationships with, I can begin to understand what types of organizations have similar values to what I want, and are going to allow me to be the type of HR leader that I want to be. And that starts to help me understand some of the approaches but without understanding what the destination is exactly, it's going to be difficult to choose the right approach. That's said, I'm still gonna give you some examples as we go along here. Okay, I see, JJ the podcast regular listener, awesome to see here. That's pretty cool. And I want to go to question two, because I think we can answer more of Dawn's question as we go along here, as well. Question number two, this comes from Jen. "How do I switch back to my previous career?" This is such a great question. And Jen, if you're here, don't hesitate to share any other contacts, any other things that we might need to know or let us know that you're here and on live. Okay. How do I switch back to my previous career? All right. Now, in this case, I remember a little bit of the context that she sent in here. And from what I remember she had a career as a research scientist in one way or another, and then also I think I remember that she had done the SOS therapy and wants to return to science. Okay. Here's something that a lot of people don't think about as they're making change from one area to another. If you are going to be in a situation where you're competing against other people that have better or maybe more appropriate resume experience or more recent resume experience, or they're going to have the competitive advantage through normal channels, like going on indeed.com and then applying on the company website, and then send in my resume. And if I'm going to be competing against those people, and they're going to have a significant competitive advantage over what I have right now, then I simply don't want to compete with them. I'm going to go a completely different direction. So that might be the case for you too, again, if you want to switch back to science, and it's been a while, it's been approaching 10 years or so, since you have done that, and Jen's on here, she says she was a microbiologist until the layoff in 2010. So if you want to move back into science, that's fantastic. Part of what I'm going to encourage you to do is focus on those things that are going to get exceptions made for you. And when I say exceptions, I'm talking about how do we get you in touch with those people that are behind the scenes that can either help you or hire you, in one way or another. Because if they... if the only thing that they have to judge from you, is a resume that says, hey, I've been out of signings for all intents and purposes for 10 years, then that's not going to do you any good. So don't do that. That's just a recipe for disaster. Instead, what if you found a variety of organizations, let's say that you found 10 organizations that you would be interested in working with, in one way or another, and then you reached out to people in those organizations that either can help you or hire you. You don't even have to reach out in fact, please don't reach out to them asking for a job. That's not going to be helpful to them. And it also is probably not going to be helpful to you as well. But what if you reached out to them in a way that is less intrusive, and also honestly, you don't know if you want a job there or not for sure, you got to validate that first. Another one of these trainings, we use the dating analogy. And you wouldn't show up and propose to someone on the first date or in some cases, even before the first date, like that's not going to, that's unlikely statistically to work out well for you. That said, once you learn more about them, once you build a relationship with them, and once you begin to know them, that starts to become a possibility. And I would encourage you to treat getting a role, getting a job, getting an opportunity in the exact same way. So here's how that might sound, here's some that might, that reach out my time, you might find somebody on LinkedIn or find their direct contact information, reach out to them and say something along the lines of, "Hey, you know what, I was working in science for, anything describe a little bit about background whatever might be in common with them potentially, I was working in science for a while up until about 2010. And I made a career change. And I started to become interested in getting back to science. And I'm trying to decide what would be great for me. And I'm guessing that all of these things are true, by the way, Jen like that, if not, tweak it to be able to fit what is true and genuine for you. And then you can go on to say, in your email, in your reach out, in your phone call and your LinkedIn message, whatever way you're reaching out, doesn't matter as much. Want to say, "Hey, I would, I was really interested in what you're doing, and what your organization is doing." And you can even cite a couple of specific examples that helps make it more relevant to them and say, "Hey, I'd love to chat with you for 10 minutes if you'd be willing to answer a few questions. It would really help me decide what I want to do as I go forward in my career. Are you open to that? If so, just let me know. And I'm happy to work around your schedule." That type of message, as long as it's done in a genuine way, and as long as you are creating relevancy to them, we find that generally people say 'yes' someplace between 50 to 70% of the time, there's usually a skill level involved. So usually starts out lower and then grows to 50 to 70%. However, you know, that type of reach out would begin to allow you to have relationships with those people that can help you or hire you. And more importantly, way more importantly, than immediately leading you to a job like right this second, instead, it would actually allow you to decide what wouldn't be really great for you. That way you don't return to science and hate the situation because it... because you haven't learned enough about that, you know, proposal on the first day type thing. Which by the way, a lot of organizations do that, it's become socially accepted norm, which means that it's on us as a career changer, it's on us owning our career to really take that responsibility on for ourselves, because it's not the top of the social norm for most organizations. And that's just, I hope to change that over time. However, that's the way it is for most organizations right now. It's not necessarily that they, you know, care a lot or don't care a lot about you. It is that is the socially acceptable way to hire in a lot of cases. You need to do more in order to understand by whether it's going to be right for you. Jen, let me know if that helps. That's just one way out of many, but I want to help you focus on what's going to be much more effective, which will be much more strategic, instead of just dumping your resume someplace. Okay, super cool. Let's go on question number three, we'll continue to answer these. I think actually, each question will probably be build on one another just a little bit. Question number three, this one comes from, Tamarah. This may be a different Tamarah, I'm not sure. However, "In a competitive job market, how can I get an employer to even consider interviewing me when I may not meet qualifications for the job?" Well, as it turns out, that can actually happen the same way that we just described for Jen. Here's something that I know about human psychology and you can make an argument about whether this is right or wrong or good or bad. However, it is something that is pretty, pretty true in most cases, not all cases. That is, if I like you, and I feel like you could potentially be a fit for my team, my organization, whatever else. And I can see working with you and see how you could be capable, notice I didn't say are capable, but could be capable of doing the job, doing the role, fitting with the organization, having contribution, whatever the situation is, that puts me in a position to where I'm actually more likely to hire you than someone who has perfect experience. But I don't like or don't see as a fit in one of those areas. So those three things that I rounded off, I know like you fit and see capability for doing the job are pretty consistently the big categories that you must have in order for someone to say yes to you, or consider you as a viable candidate to work with on their team and their organization or whatever. Again, notice I didn't say, like has the perfect experience, notice I didn't say, you know, has 10 years of bla bla bla. What I find is that those things have a tendency to override decisions when it gets to hiring. The familiarity that those three areas create for someone feels like they're taking less risk than something they consider to be unknown.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:32
So is that exclusively true? No, absolutely not. Is that true the majority of the time? Yes, because computers don't hire you, humans hire you. And since humans hire you, then we keep... we don't wanna abuse that, we don't want to abuse the psychology that goes along with it. And I would never encourage you to do so. But I do want you to leverage that for your advantage, especially if you are taking on the responsibility of making sure that it's a great fit for you as well. I don't want you to get in there, and you know, be a terrible fit for the organization, I don't want you to get in there and totally not be able to contribute, that's not good for the organization. But I also want you to have every single advantage that you possibly can. So what that means is, how do I get those things? Well, as it turns out, I like you, you know, if I feel like I am, like you in one way or another, and I'm not saying that you have to be, you know, only associated with the same person, I'm saying the exact opposite. I like you, when I build a relationship with you. I feel like I like you when I have some identified points of commonality with you and can see what we have in common in one way or another. If I really reduce it, to just a couple of simple things, those in the beginnings of a relationship carry a lot further, not in all cases, but in in many cases, and certainly not in every single type of role, especially really, really highly regulated roles, like a medical doctor where you have to have like really specific criteria to even be considered. But once you have that level of criteria, it still carries weight too. But what I find is that you can override some of those pieces like I have five years experience, we have somebody we're working with right now. And guess what she has tons of experience. However, it is not perfect resume experience. And she doesn't necessarily have the seven years experience that a senior level consultant in her area really matches with or that is typically asked for, but she's 100% capable of doing that and actually has tons of relatable experience, it just doesn't perfectly transfer over. So how do we get our competitive advantage? Well, she's going to meet to build relationships. And, is that the perfect solution for everything? No. But I want to help you understand and give you some exposure to how this could be possible, and how it works a lot of the times. One other thing I'll say about that is really, really important. We talk with our clients and students a lot of the time behind the scenes about this. And it's that, if your goal and not everybody's goal is this, but if you're here, you're probably your goal is something close to this, if your goal is to not just have another job, your goal is to have work that is much more fulfilling with an organization that aligns much better with your values and your goal is to be able to do so while still getting well paid, then that's actually an exception. That's an exception. It's not average. If we go and look at average, average is, I'm in a job that I don't really like that much and I am under paid. Only 4% of the world, at this point, we describe their job as great or describe themselves as being really, really highly engaged in it and just absolutely enamored with it, the enamored part is my words not theirs, but in the US it is less than 13% of people that would fit that category. And it's far, far less for people that are really well paid to do it. So I want you to recognize that this is very possible, but it's also an exception to normal. And if you're looking for an exception to normal, that means the way that you get there is not by doing what everybody else is doing. So that means that you are going to have to go a different route road and things like building relationships and the way that we described and given a couple examples on are going to be very, very helpful, much more helpful and much more effective than just submitting a resume or any of the standard ways to get a job. Hopefully, that really helps that we... here's the challenging part about that. The really challenging part about that is that's brand new to a lot of different people. And you... it's sounds really easy in theory. And it makes sense in theory, and I think most people can identify with that. But when you start to write that email, or when you start to reach out to that person, that's where it starts to get hard. And that's where it starts to get challenging because all kinds of mental barriers pop up. And honestly, the mental side of making a switch like this is far more difficult than the actual tactical side. That's something we talk a lot about behind the scenes too. This one question, I think we have one more question number four, and then we'll set, we have a lot of questions coming in as well. So we'll try to get as many as we possibly can. We're on rapid fire mode. Okay, this goes for Veronica. Is that the same Veronica that I saw earlier? Veronica, let us know if this was your question or if you're here, "How can I effectively convey that I have transferable skills in my new career choice?" This is a great question. It's also something that we see in a variety of different forms again, and again and again. So chances are high other people might have this question, too. Oh, it is. I think that is Veronica. Veronica, feel free to share anything else about this too. And the way that I interpreted this question, and please let me know if I'm getting it wrong, is if you're choosing if you already have some idea of what your career choice might be, or afterwards you have some idea of what your new career choice might be, in terms of like occupation, or industry or whatever is applicable, then how do I effectively convey those transfer skills? So if that's the case, then I will share that it happens differently than most people think that it does. A lot of people feel like how that's going to happen, is they're going to figure out the perfect way to say it on their resume or application or something else along those lines. And then we're going to convey is so wonderfully that people are going to understand exactly how it transfers over. I know in reality, because I've been on all sides of the table, a hiring manager, done recruiting, you know, talent acquisition, done leadership and all those areas and done about approaching, probably approaching my 3000 interviews at this point. And it, when you're doing different types of recruiting and you're going through a resume type process, you just... you don't read everything. So even if you say it on the perfect way, chances are pretty high that's going to be lost, which means that, uneffective way to showcase those transferable skills. However, I want to give you, try and give you two different examples of ways to do this. We do something called designing experiments. Now earlier I mentioned that horrific situation, that nightmarish type situation where you go through all this work and effort and everything else, and you make a change, and then you get there, the honeymoon period wears off. And you know, three months has passed, 90 days has passed, you know, oh my goodness, this is the same thing. And in that case, obviously, I don't want that to happen to you. And we don't want people that we work with to have that ever. That's not a good place to be. I've done that before personally. And so one of the ways that we plan proactively to work against that is we do something that we call test driving or designing experiments. Now, there's a lot of ways that we design experiments. But I want to give you one example out of that, maybe even two examples out of that, we'll see how much time we have.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:18
We use... we look at infinite ways that we do this. But we see six ways that are more common than other ways that we come up with when we're working with people. One of those six ways is what we call the 'amped up follow up.' And the story that I always tell when when we get to that type of situation is, Mike is somebody we work with maybe four years ago or so. And he did a really great job of this at the time. What he did effectively, was he would schedule conversations with organizations in a really similar way to what we talked about before when we were giving Jen the example, you know, they weren't like really super complicated scripts or anything like that, very simple scripts reach out, and he would schedule a conversation. And during that conversation, he would learn as much as he possibly could, as much as he possibly could about what their challenges were were, about what the organization was trying to accomplish, about what that individual who is talking to, was wishing they could do, but maybe didn't have the time for about what the work actually looked like. He just learned as much as he possibly could, and he is still respectful of their time. And he wouldn't go beyond the time allotted. Sometimes he would ask for additional time once they got to that. But sometimes they're having so much fun and run to like a 90 minute conversation but he learned as much as he possibly could. And then here's the thing to it, this is beyond to fall apart. He thank them very much and profusely and he genuinely meant it. And then he would, you know, send them a thank you notes and then make a like written Thank You note, and after that by week or so later, whatever that thing that he learned a lot about was that they needed or couldn't get to, he would take that on as a small project, he take that on as a small project, and then without them asking about it, he would send it to them, like a week or two weeks later and say, "Hey, remember that thing that you told me about that it was really important, but you couldn't get to and just you've been trying to do that for months? Well, I went ahead and I've researched it for you, here's a PDF on it, a one pager and then also another report on everything that you need, I think that you'll find this useful." So that was the amped up follow up part. Okay, so, couple of different reasons why that was effective for him. And I'm not necessarily recommending this for you, specifically, Veronica, but I want to give you some examples for how this works. So that you can begin to see what's going to work for you. We recommended this in his case, partially because we wanted him to have the ability to try out some of the actual work in a low risk way. Also, imagine if you're that person who gets an email a week or two weeks later, like, oh, my goodness, who is this guy? I want to, I must have this guy working on my team. But how do that right now? Because nobody does that. Nobody does things like that. And at the same time, this is part of the answer to your question. It helps showcase some of those transferable skills, some of the things he was already good at, and more importantly, some of his strengths. Now that approach was right for Mike. However, that approach is not right for everyone that doesn't have similar strengths to Mike. Usually will try to match that experiment or that approach. And if you notice, I started talking about designing experiments. But also there was a lot of different benefits for just that one activity behind the scenes, we call that multi purpose activity or multi benefit activities. In this case, he was doing one thing, it helped him try out the work to validate whether he was heading in the right direction, it helped him build crazy amounts of relationship in a way that just wasn't possible otherwise, and tons of credibility. And it also helped him be able to showcase some of his transferable skills, even though he didn't technically have experience and what some of these companies would have wanted where they to do a job posting and put it out there in the exact same way. Okay, so he, in a relatively short time, a lot of people that we work with, you know, they might transition someplace between like a four to eight months for when they're making a bigger career change, sometimes longer, sometimes shorter. However, that being said, you know, he did that in I think it was like three and a half months. And we ended up coaching them through the job offer process too and through that job offer process because he built those crazy amounts of relationship. They wanted him pretty bad. And he was able to negotiate not just salary, but also they literally modify, he got two job offers the exact same time, they literally modified both bowls for him to what he wanted in order to try and get him on board. Okay, is that what happens every single time? No, but it does happen. It does actually happen a lot. And it's because, he's going about it in ways that are useful to the organization and relevant to the organization more specifically the people in the organization, instead of just trying to figure out how do I articulate it perfectly on a paper that is unlikely to be read for very, very long. So hopefully that helps Veronica think about this a little bit different way. But all of these pieces that we've talked about so far really work together, they work together to create a much more cohesive system to be able to make career change. And least if your goal is for meaningful work, that still pays you what you're accustomed be paying, or being paid, and allows you to retain the type of lifestyle that you're looking for.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:34
So, I wanna go on here, and then we're going to try and answer some other questions, as well, continue to drop those in the Q&A. That's where we're going to end up going to here next. I also wanted to, I promised you at the beginning, that I would share a sneak peek into what the success path looks like for people who are making this type of change. So and again, I can't emphasize this enough, if you just want another job, you just want another role and the other pieces aren't important to you, it's not important to you to do meaningful or more fulfilling work that uses your strengths while also being well paid, then that's okay. Like there's tactics and approaches for that too. That's a lot easier. But if you do, if your goal is to have much more meaningful work, and all the other pieces as well, it's going to happen differently. And additionally, you're going to need to be very clear about what you want, what you need, and how you can uniquely contribute. I know I said some of these pieces before, but it's worth saying that so much so that we literally wrote them down on a slide so I wouldn't forget to say them, because I want to make sure that you have every piece of leverage that you have and have the right information. We studied this again, and again and again, for people that not just we've worked with, but other people that have made career changes. And we've described that the work that they're doing as meaningful, as more fulfilling, as successful based on their standards of success. And we've observed all of those commonalities. So here's the path that those people go through when they're doing that. This is what your success path will look like, if that's your goal. Step one is going to build yourself a specific destination like we're talking about, we call this an ideal career profile. And that's just the tool that we use. Ultimately, step one, you must have a really accurate picture of where you're going, what you want, what's most important to you, not just not everything that's important, but what's most important to you, as well as understanding what you uniquely contribute and what you bring to the table. Without that, you're not even going to recognize what creates an amazing situation to you. That's how people make the switch, and instead go accidentally go to what's available to them. And we've seen that happen a lot. That's how a lot of people have ended up in different types of roles. And I'm not judging, I've done that, too. And that's how a lot of people end up coming to us in one way or another because they don't want to do that, again, they don't want to choose what's available to them. Instead, want to build it much more intentionally, want to make a change in your career much more intentionally, without understanding where you're going, it is going to be next to impossible to make that type of change. So that's step one. Step two, is what I mentioned, some variation of making sure and having to measure insurance that you're heading the right direction, because at the end of the day, step one is a highly educated guess, but still, in part, just a guess. So you gotta think extra step and validate that you're heading in the right direction. You've got to test it out. So that test drive or roll call designing experiments and tweak it so that you are in fact headed in the right direction for you. And then step three, is all about now that you know where you're going, being able to choose the right approaches and right tactics that are going to get you there. Is that part easy? No, none of this is easy. Is it worth it? Well, the people that we've worked with in the past have said yes, absolutely. It's also something that they, at the same time described as one of the most difficult things that they've done. The cool thing here is once you have done it in this way, and once you understand how to take control of your life and this much more intentional way, it really maximizes for the type of life that you want to live and allows you to be more happy, more often at your work and allows you to take much more influence and control over where and how you get to spend your time, then that's something that changes the whole rest of your life. Because even if you make another change, you know how to do that. So it's something that I've had many people email me and say, Hey, why don't you teach this school? So yes, I wish it was taught in school. However, unfortunately, a lot of people at this point in time don't realize that they need it until much, much later after they've made some changes and they realize that they want something different. I want something more, and that's okay right now. We can take it to schools later on. Okay, so if that's you, then here's what I would suggest, you have a couple different options. You can go through that path on your own. I did. It took me about, you know, roughly seven years or so to really figure out the accurate level what I needed and wanted. So that's a real possibility, you can absolutely do that. You can try and piece together an assortment of resources to be able to make that type of change. The cool thing is like, if you're here, you're probably committed, you're probably going to figure it out at some point. In general, what we've seen is people typically take years to figure it out. So nothing wrong with that. That's how I did it. We also, of course, are willing to help. And if you want to understand how to expedite moving through that success track, and you want to make sure that the effort that you're expanding, is moving you closer and closer and closer to moving for each one of those milestones, then that's where I would encourage you to schedule a call with our team specifically, I would say talk to Phillip. Phillip is flippin' amazing. I don't know how many times I've had people email me or talk to me and say, "Hey, that guy, I felt like I was getting just a ton of coaching for free." So hopefully I'm embarrassing Phillip a little bit because that's partially my goal. But my other goal is saying that don't do nothing. And if you're unsure where to start, or you don't want to take years figure through it, then it's okay to reach out for help. And part of what we do is we don't jam you into a program or anything like that. We try and figure out by asking very intentional questions, how to best help you move through the career change that you want, and what your goals look like. And then we choose with you what would be the best way to be able to help make that happen based on your needs, your goals, your budget, all of those other pieces too. So I would absolutely encourage you to do that. Make that your step to get started here. You can type happentoyourcareer.com/schedule and then you can find a time on Phillip's schedule, although there has, I don't know that there's a lot left in that in the near future. Great job, by the way, showing up and putting yourself first. That's where this all begins. And I just want to say thank you for having really amazing questions. This makes it so much fun for us. Because you ask really great questions. This is pretty awesome. I will talk to you all later, have an amazing rest of your Thursday night. And this is what we do, it's what we love to do. So don't hesitate to reach out and we'll figure out the best way that we can support what you're doing. Talk to you later. Thank you, Phillip, by the way. Phillip helping everything run smoothly. And he's in San Francisco, and still making this work even though he's not in his normal space, normal place, normal clothes, everything else and will... this wouldn't be happening without, put it mildly. So appreciate that. I'll see you all later. Have a great rest of the night. Adios.

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