496: Using Curiosity & Experiments to Guide Your Career with Ben Fox

Ben Fox 00:01

If you're thinking about career change, if this has been on your mind at all, to me, that means there's a part of you, probably your gut, your intuition, that's trying desperately to get your attention.

Introduction 00:20

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:44

I was recently in Charleston, South Carolina, and the tour guide was stopping us every few minutes to let us know a fun fact. But our facts actually weren't all that fun. They were facts, but they were not that exciting. However, I want to tell you a fun fact. But I also want to preface it by saying it's science related. So you know, stick with me here. Did you know that scientists call the stomach the second brain? You may have heard that before. There's actually a network of 100 million neurons lining your entire digestive tract. That means that your brain is constantly working in tandem with your gut. Everyone knows what it feels like to have a pit in your stomach as you weigh a decision. That's the gut talking loud and clear. So when it comes to your career, and you feel like something is wrong, that's actually a wonderful indicator for you to stop, reevaluate, and choose a different direction.

Ben Fox 01:41

I'll say, I'm the type of person that has to listen to my intuition. I live without regrets as much as I can.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:51

Today, you're in for a special treat. One of our career coaches on team Happen To Your Career, Ben Fox, is joining me on the podcast for the very first time. Ben is an ACC certified coach who helps people stretch beyond, far beyond, what they thought was possible, achieve their dreams, fall in love with life, not just their work. Ben knows what it's like to feel lost when it comes to your career. He's done that. Been there before. And spent many years, after college, hopping from job to job, situation to situation, not really exactly knowing what he wanted. What he didn't realize at the time was that all of those seemingly random jobs were actually allowing him to experiment with his career. And eventually, he was able to take all his learnings and that experimentation to pinpoint his ideal career. And more importantly, I'm really excited for you to get to know Ben, because all of those experiments, all of those learnings, all those things that he was doing for himself at the time, has now made him an expert, as it relates to helping other people do the exact same thing. Here he is taking us back to his very first job.

Ben Fox 03:00

I started working at the summer camp I went to, which my brothers went to, my mom went to, in upstate New York, and I was a camp counselor. So this was like the first experience I had, understanding how to work with other humans, guide them, help them enjoy what was going on, resolve conflicts. I love that work. People thought I would be at summer camp for the rest of my life, which was flattering, but not true. But I did love that experience before going to college. And throughout college, I continued in a similar vein, I was an after school tutor and summer camp counselor, again, my third year in college, I also worked at our radio station on to University of Wisconsin, so go badgers.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:00

Go badgers.

Ben Fox 04:03

And got to see what it was like to work at a radio station with some of my peers. I love music. I was also a DJ at the radio station, have my own show every week.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:15

I don't think I knew about that. I don't think I knew about the DJ experience. So in my mind, you've just notch like two or three levels up. So I'm curious, you know, through that time period, what was that like for you? What was fun about that? What was less exciting than it sounds?

Ben Fox 04:37

A big part of my job at the radio station, that was a summer job. But I was a DJ there for about two and a half years. A bunch of that job was sitting at the desk, making sure the students and community members who had their shows had everything they needed, making sure... It was more of an operations and front desk type of role. I've loved interacting with people and listening to their shows. But it got pretty boring because people were self sufficient. That being said, it was a summer where I cobbled together a full time schedule between that, and working at this summer camp program as a counselor, which was super fun. I mean, I got to have fun with children, playing games, going outside, couple trips here and there. So balancing that with working with other adults was lovely in the summertime in Madison, if you've ever been in the Upper Midwest, and the summer is ideal, some of the best memories from being in the Midwest for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:50

Very cool. And interesting that you piece together a portfolio career, long before it was popular to have any kind of a portfolio career. So way to be a trendsetter. And it makes me curious about what happened next as you moved on and started to explore beyond that, what did that look like for you?

Ben Fox 06:12

Thanksgiving of my last year in school, in college, I remember coming home, and the pressure was starting to build that I was about to graduate. I didn't know what I wanted. I was an English creative writing major in college. I like to read, I like to write, like, how do I apply that to adulthood. And I remember coming home for that break, and just sobbing in front of my parents, because I was so unsure of what to do with my life. The pressure was real. They told me to not worry, they were great about it, you'll figure it out, you'll do things, you'll probably do many different things before you figure it out. And luckily, my lease was through August, and I stayed in Madison for the summer, did the same type of work with the summer camp. But upon leaving, promptly took a trip to Europe for two months.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:11

As you do.

Ben Fox 07:12

Get out... As you do. As one does. One of those big backpacks on my back and want to couchsurfing and hostels. And when I came back, I got my first college job. This was the first turning point for me. And realized, I want to commit fully to a career path. I don't know which one yet, but I need to commit, started thinking about what does that look like. And drawing on my experience as an after school tutor, summer camp counselor, I thought why not be a teacher. So I saw that the charter schools in New York City would hire interns, get to do a little bit of the work and see if you want to become a teacher, and they can help fast track you after a year. I ended up getting that job, paid very low, it's like 25k in New York City. And two weeks in, I had to check in with my principal, this was a Tuesday. The students were getting there Thursday and Friday. And she says to me, "Ben, we're hiring for this third grade teacher role. And the people we're interviewing are pretty good. But after seeing how you work, and talking to the third grade team, we decided that you're going to be the new third grade social studies teacher. Congratulations. You're in." And I literally couldn't speak. I'd never taught before. I'd never been in front of a classroom of 20-25 students and worked with this age group, third graders, seven or eight year olds, but not as a full time teacher. And very little time to prepare. I did not go to school for education, my salary more than doubled though. And I wanted to commit to a career path, try something out, move to Brooklyn. And with this, I was able to do all those things. I say this to a lot of people as well, that job was the hardest thing I've done professionally.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:10

What made it particularly difficult for you when you think back and you think about what was hard? How would you describe that?

Ben Fox 09:18

It was an extreme mismatch. It matched my skill set in some ways. I love working with people, helping them grow and learn and expand. But this particular school and I think some charter schools are definitely like this are very much focused on discipline, classroom management. As a first year teacher who had very little training to be a teacher, the students can sniff out that you don't know how to control the classroom.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:51

It's like they can sense the fear.

Ben Fox 09:54

They can. And I was afraid. I was thrown into the lion's den. After about a month and a half, two months, I wasn't in front of the classroom until my coach, who had been teaching for a while got stuck because of a snowstorm on a Sunday night and said, "Listen, tomorrow is the day. You're going to be in front of the classroom." And that's for different classes of 20 to 25 students each. So the challenge was, and this was part of the opportunity that's presented and why I got so excited about the school and charter schools was, it was so much focused on we're gonna go to some of the poorest communities, usually black and brown communities, in inner cities. This part was in Brooklyn. I grew up in the north of the city– New York City's my home. So I wanted to be in Brooklyn. Always love Brooklyn. And it's presented as a transformational thing that we'll be doing with students, we're going to change education, we're going to give students the chance to get through high school and get to a great college, "Mike, who wouldn't be on board with that? I'm so excited to transform people's lives in this way." But when you get down to it, so much of the work was managing a classroom and being a disciplinarian. My students had to sit with their arms across their desk, fingers interlaced, back up straight, they had to look at the person who was speaking, I remember saying "Track Jonathan when he's speaking" it felt like I had to be a disciplinarian. Think of like Matilda, or any movie or show where there's a teacher who scares everybody, I was like, "I have to become that. That's not me." And I realized, I didn't know how to do it any other way, either. Because I had no training as a teacher. My way of being with children is a ton of listening, showing them love, letting them explore. I couldn't do that. And there were moments where that happened. And I think the students felt that I just genuinely cared. And that's where any of my success came from. Other than that, I had to be at that school by 7am, and be there until 430ish. And I would spend longer being there because I had to practice my lessons, I had to clean up the classroom, things that have second, third, fourth year teachers they've got down. So my days were long. And I'll say the moment when I realized this was not for me, it was that December, right before winter break, I went to a concert with two of my best friends from childhood at Terminal five in Manhattan. And I remember it was a Friday night, and I was standing up, falling asleep, I could not stay awake. And I knew in that moment that I had to figure out how to leave that job sooner than later.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:05

When you realize that it was not a fit, what did that cause you to think about and what were your next steps from there?

Ben Fox 13:14

It was an extreme situation where over that winter break, I seriously considered quitting without knowing anything about what I wanted next. And the conversation I was having with my family, with friends was, "Hey, I know this is tough, give it a full school year. Because it's not just you thing, your team, all these students who are growing to love you. I know it's hard, but you've made it this far. It's gonna get brighter and warmer throughout this part of the year, you know, January through June, it will get better. Make it through that year." So that became my focus. I will make it to June and then I'm going to take the summer off, because I'm exhausted. But I think I could do it. And I'll just say, I was 23 the time people generally have a ton of energy. I was shot.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:11

So let me ask you about that really quickly. Looking back now, knowing what you know now and having worked with many other people are in transition, it seems like some of the difficulty of that first year in teaching was twofold. It seems like there were some elements that were a clear, non fit. Also, it seems like there were some elements that were just attributed to learning and growth because as you said, like, that's your first year, you're sort of thrown into it in many different ways, and hadn't necessarily developed the skill sets in that environment in that particular way to be able to really be comfortable operating in there. So what I'm curious about is when you look back, you know, how much of that do you attribute to the newness and the skill side and how much of that do you attribute to the non fit? Just tell me a little bit about what you know now.

Ben Fox 15:04

I think in another life, I might have been a teacher. But I think the misfit as far as hours I'm not an early morning person. I'm not. That was real. That was a huge adjustment. That was debilitating, I'd say. That it's worse. And being in an environment that started me out that summer, that July, I remember being in an auditorium with all the new teachers, some who had been there for a while. And the energy was palpable. People were excited and like hitting their chairs and the energy was there. I was like this, yes, this is why I would do this. And then the reality was pretty tough to witness. Like kids getting almost dragged out of rooms when they were causing a ruckus, having to treat seven year olds, like they were in the military. This is not a dig on charter schools, I want to make that clear, but my experience was one where the love and care came after following the rules and the discipline.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:16

And getting to know you, too, that doesn't align with what you value at all. So I can see a clear misalignment there.

Ben Fox 16:23

Yeah. And I just... I could tell in my gut, this saying that, "I know I have a lot to offer. And if I stay in school, I will dim my light." So the ability to envision what was next was very weak. And I was running away from not running to really anything. And I think a lot of people have this experience where something then comes into your life, like, "Okay, that's better" which did end up happening. My dad is an entrepreneur. He was mostly in TV and film, had a huge idea, because he's an idea person and created a new company, and said, "Ben, I know you're miserable. Why don't you come work with me after your summer off?" And I said, "Oh my God, please. Thank you. Yes." There was no question that. And I really relish the opportunity to work with my dad intimately. Even if I wasn't in the chief role, or you know, VP, but like, supporting my dad in one of his dreams. Great experience. We still talk about the things we learned, and they'll still show me things and get my opinion, which I love. And what I took away from that experience was, I love being an entrepreneur. I love that lifestyle. It's something I saw growing up. But I'm missing what I got from teaching, that growth and development, helping people grow and learn, how do I put entrepreneur growth and development together. And that was something I was thinking about a lot back in 2015. And that kind of led to what's next.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:07

One of the things that stands out for me, is every part of your career, you're sort of thrust into something that is new for you. And that seems to be a pattern. So one of the things that I'm really curious about is, you know, sometimes we have, actually, I'll say a lot of the times we have people that we get to work with in one way or another where they're wondering, like, should I go into something that is completely new? Or should I leverage a variety of my experiences? Or should I stay in the same category, industry, occupation, and really change out something else that is vital, but smaller, and arguably smaller? So here's what I'm curious about, you know, now that you've done a number of switches many times over, in a number of industries, in a number of ways, in a number of roles, I'm just curious, what advice would you give for how to think about that? Because I know there's no perfect right answer, but just tell me a little about how you think about that now.

Ben Fox 19:17

Advice to my younger self, my 20s self, is that it's okay to experiment. I don't think most liberal arts degrees set up people very intentionally to know what they want when they leave college. And I think there's an almost existential pressure that we have to figure out what we love and follow our passion. I think it's we work that had that logo of do what you love. And I don't think I would have been able to figure that out if I didn't do all these different things. An experiment. And I think the questions that you're talking about that clients ask, it is so particular to you and your life, like I reflect back on where I come from and who my family was, I felt pretty sheltered, and needing to figure that out was really after college when I wanted my own life, and to live in Brooklyn and be on my own. And I think there are a lot of people out there that have to figure this out, like have to figure out how can I make money and pay my bills way earlier. And I think those people have a leg up as far as knowing how to work and knowing how to get jobs that fit the bill for them. But I think, unfortunately, a lot of folks who've had that type of experience, also have been given the option, or, "Hey, it's okay to explore." I think folks coming from that type of background would be immeasurably helped by doing these little experiments. Doesn't mean you have to quit your job. But like, we need to experiment with things that you know you want, even if it's a little bit every week. And that's what I would tell those people.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:21

Yeah, I think about... That's really interesting that you say that, because I think about, like, Haley, who we had on the podcast a while back. And in her case, she had been with her same organization for, you know, almost a decade, maybe even longer now that I think about it. And you know, she'd promoted up the ranks really quickly. But she had been in the same organization, the same area, per se, for a really long period of time. And she hadn't necessarily during that decade, that 10 years, done a lot of exploration. So well, she had gotten very, very good and very, very skilled and moved up the ranks into an executive role very, very quickly. She felt like she had missed out and suffered herself on that exploration piece. So I think what is interesting to me, like you were just referring to your 20s, but I think it's just as applicable to other points in life too, especially if people had the opportunity to explore because they have been focused on their career in a different way leading up to it. So I think that exploration is potentially applicable to all ages.. We had at one point worked with somebody who is in their 70s. And that's really what they were looking for. They felt like never got the opportunity to explore. And it's fascinating to me how transferable, the same thing is, all different decades, all different periods and ages. But here's what... how shall I say it... When you got into that role, that opportunity to work with your dad, and I'm curious what happened next? What caused you to decide that, hey, this is something I need to move on from. I've enjoyed the experience with my dad. But what what caused you to say, "hey, now it's time."?

Ben Fox 23:08

I missed what I did like from teaching. I had that revelation of how do I put the things I liked from both of these experiences together. And so I started interviewing therapists, social workers, counselors, and people told me I need to go back to school. I had to get a certification that would take a long time. I was not interested. And I remember one person said, Ben, it sounds like you actually want to be a coach. I was like, "What are you talking about? I've played soccer most of my life. I've had coaches in that regard. What is this other coach thing?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:53

What is this coach make me a speaker?

Ben Fox 23:56

Yeah. It seems like a fiction that someone made up. This isn't a career. So that became my focus. I started interviewing life coaches, career coaches, executive coaches, "What do you do? What's your day to day? How did you get into this?" Using my curiosity to guide those conversations, I was hooked. This was back in 2015. And was hooked enough to say, I think this is what I want to do. Let me find out how I can be trained to do this. And I looked at a lot of different programs online, and the only one I could find that would allow me to see what they do was with accomplishment coaching. I was able to be a fly on the wall for their year-long program. I was there for two and a half hours on a Saturday. Just seeing what month six of their program looks like that day. And this was truly an eye opening moment jaw to the floor. I could not believe how vulnerable and communicative people were in that room, the participants in the program and they were just in month six, I was blown away. And needless to say, I signed up for that program two weeks later. And that really jumps started the part of my life that I think I'm in right now. I went through an accomplishment coachings year long training program. This also coincided with a move from New York to St. Louis for love. So I made that move to St. Louis, started that coach training program up in Chicago, I travel to Chicago a weekend every month, and started building my coaching practice pretty quickly, because they make you do that, like, the way you're going to be a good coach is by not being a good coach right now. But you gotta start. And I love the work. I was in love with coaching pretty quickly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:58

Now, here's what I find fascinating about this set of transitions for you. Every single point along the way, and I know we haven't talked about every single one of them in detail. But for you every single point along the way, you're learning a bit more, a bit more, a bit more about what you want. So here's what I'm very curious about, you know, when you started coaching, and as you continue learning about what you want, what was different than what you originally perceived? And what did you learn about what you needed versus what you thought you needed?

Ben Fox 26:33

I learned that the work fueled me, coaching people and seeing them make truly transformations, not even changes but transform their lives. There's been nothing like that in my life that I've experienced, and it gave me energy. And I wanted to keep doing that and get better at that. I also didn't realize that being an entrepreneur, a solopreneur involves so many other aspects that I was uninterested in. For example, to be a successful coach, you need to be talking to build that business from scratch, be talking to many, many, many, many, many, many, many people every week. And there's this huge funnel of people you talk to, people that say yes to a sample session, to people that actually sign up. When I was going to networking events every week, talking to everyone I knew in my network. I remember I felt like I tapped out the people that I was close with, I had their phone number, like I had called almost everybody. And it was exhausting. And not exhausting, because I didn't like talking to people. But because it was so hard to get people to hire me. And I worked on that, of course, over the next couple of years and went back to accomplishment coaching in 2017 and 18 as a mentor coach, helping people go through the program and coaching them and still having that community of support. But I've had very little training on how to build a successful business flat out. And I knew that that part of the journey did not feel me. It felt like I'm doing all this work to get people to just talk to me or have a sample session. And I just want to be coaching right now. Like I will be flexing this skill. And this love I have for something as the main thing I do and not have the hustle, which is what it started to feel like to be what I'm doing day to day.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:40

I think that that's a really common experience that I see people have as they start to get further into any kind of career change, where they have to actively disassociate what they believe are their perceptions about what a thing is, what an occupation is, what an industry is, or what they believe they love and what has to come with it. So the question I want to ask for you is for someone else who's in that situation, where they have, you know, done a certain thing in a certain way, but loved elements of it, what advice would you give them to look beyond what they can see? Because sometimes that's really hard when you're in the mix of it. And yeah, so what advice would you give for them to look beyond what they might be able to see visible right there or a way that they think it has to be done?

Ben Fox 29:30

I was coaching someone today around this, where she was mentioning the things she didn't like about her current job and some past jobs. And I encouraged her, "Hey, let's look at those things. That's important. But what's the flip side of it?" So for me, I really didn't like the hustle and that part of building my own business. So what's the flip side of that? And through my own exploration, I found that I want a situation where clients are provided for me. And my job is to coach and to be at a company that's doing that. So I'd say for people, you probably know what it is you don't like, and to invest some time with yourself, with people you love, with your coach, if you have one, to think through what's on the opposite end of that spectrum that would give you actually what you want that was not being fulfilled in that situation or the situations previously.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:37

That's great advice. So I'm curious, aside from the transformation, which you mentioned that you love, what are the other elements where you've grown to realize that being able to coach people, especially through career changes, and working in that type of capacity, what have you realized for yourself that really aligns with what you enjoy, and what you're good at?

Ben Fox 31:02

I find that when people start talking to me, they get this sense of calm pretty quickly, that I think I bring to conversation.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:12

You're kind of a calm dude. I think it's easy to be calm around you.

Ben Fox 31:17

I love that. I own that. It took a while, but I own that about myself. And it allows me to just be with people, and then they can reciprocate that, which is how I build relationships. That's how I build anything is being myself, being an honest transparent person, sometimes to a fault. But when it comes to my profession, the work I do, it's been so validating to this about myself, create the environment from the first interaction I'm having with someone so that they can feel present, calm, and they tell me things that they don't know, sometimes even their partner, or their parents, because they know it's just gonna be between us, and I'm here fully for you. And I love that every conversation I'm having as a coach is different. And I am continuously impressed by, like, I'll have a day where I'm like, "I don't want to coach. I don't want to talk to anyone." And then I get into a conversation with a client, and I lose all sense of time. I'm fully engrossed in this person's life. It's almost like watching a movie that you love, you just can't take your eyes off the screen, you don't want to press pause. And I get to do that with so many different wonderful people being let into this person's universe, with the trust that "hey, together, we're gonna get you to this next chapter book of your life" is such a gift.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:02

I love that. And here's the last question I wanted to ask you. Because you've made a lot of pivots, and a number of career changes, arguably, more than some people make in their entire life. And my question is, you know, think back to the beginning of any one of those where you're at the end of one chapter, if you will, and starting to question whether or not you should make a change, because that's where many people who are listening to this are apt in one way or another. So what advice would you give to that person?

Ben Fox 33:36

I'll say, I'm the type of person that has to listen to my intuition. I live without regrets as much as I can. I'd rather do something and be like, "Ah, shouldn't have done that." Then be like, "What if I moved to St. Louis? What would have happened?" I don't like to live with regrets. That's me. And I think that we all are intuitive. As humans, as people, we have strong intuition. So if you're thinking about career change, you've already come to some type of conclusion that your current situation is missing something for you. So in a sense, and when you... if you work with me, you'll see, I'm going to pick up on that pretty quickly, because I want what's best for you. I want what you really want for you. And in your heart, in your heart of hearts, in your soul, it's already known. I think a lot of great coaching is unearthing what already exists. So again, if you're thinking about career change, if this has been on your mind at all, to me, that means there's a part of you, probably your gut, your intuition, that's trying desperately to get your attention. And I think one of the hardest things for us to do is kind of let go and actually listen to that part of ourselves. And I think that's, again, where great coaching can help you get in touch with that part of yourself and deal with the fear that comes with it. Because you're going to have to change to make that happen, but it's so wonderful when you do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:26

I know we've talked about on the podcast once or twice over the years, the idea that being able to listen to yourself, and stop ignoring yourself at some place is actually a skill and a set of skills, in fact, and, you know, that's part of what I hear you referring to. And I think that that is so valuable. And I know that that's something that you're great at too. So I appreciate you bringing that up. I'm pumped to call you a part of our team at HTYC. And I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing your story.

Ben Fox 36:02

Thanks for having me, Scott. I'm thrilled.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:10

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who you can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like, and the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 37:07

I feel like in my own support circle, there was just kind of this feeling of like, "Oh, work is work, and you're never going to enjoy it."

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:15

I cannot tell you the number of times I've heard someone say well, "work is supposed to be hard. That's why it's called work." Or even, "work is supposed to suck." It's the mindset that has been ingrained in us as a society. We are unconsciously taught from a young age that work is a grueling duty. And we have to put in our dues during our prime working years, because that's just the way the world. Luckily, this narrative is very misguided and people are starting, just barely starting, to realize that work doesn't actually have to suck. And it all starts by looking inward and asking, "Do I really want work to feel like work? Or could it feel differently?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:03

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.