Bobby Grimm 00:01

I think that was one of those moments that I was just realizing that being good at something, though, doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be happy at it. Or that is this fulfilling as something else might be.

Introduction 00:20

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:44

I think all the time when people find our podcast, they think about, "Well, I must not enjoy my job", or, "This is for people who don't really like their work and want to do something that they actually do like." And actually what we find is that's not always the case. What about if you were changing careers, and you've had a job that actually was something that you really enjoyed, and maybe you've even found that it's impactful, or it's what we might call "meaningful work" or "more fulfilling work", and you're even great at your job because you're using your strengths, and you have a team that you love working with? Okay, so if your current role checks these boxes, you might wonder why you still feel that tug to make a change. Is it possible to justify leaving what many people might consider a great career? The short answer is yes. The grass may actually be greener on the other side.

Bobby Grimm 01:39

I wasn't leaving because of some something had gone awry. I was leaving because something on the other side of the horizon just felt like it was called.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:49

That's Bobby Grimm. Bobby is a career change veteran. He started his career as an attorney and eventually transitioned to the nonprofit sector. After eight years in his nonprofit role, he wasn't necessarily unhappy. But he had gotten to the point where he couldn't stop thinking, "What else is out there?" Bobby did a great job setting boundaries around the fact that he needed to change. I'm actually really excited for you to hear how he took the time to dig in and get very granular on exactly what an ideal career, an ideal next step would look like for him. But first, here's Bobby going way back to the beginning of his career.

Bobby Grimm 02:27

I was finishing up college shortly after 9-11, job market was changing as a result of that tragedy. But from my standpoint, I had always thought about going on for something past College Law School had kind of been on the radar. So I went and really didn't enjoy just about all of law school. But I came out, and my first job was a judicial clerk. So I worked for a judge on the Indiana Court of Appeals. And so I did that for about a year and then went into private practice. And I was primarily a business litigator. So that's kind of the high level, but I did that for, I think I practiced law in total for about eight years or so. And during that time, I had just had kind of an interesting conversation with a friend about, "I'm not sure if this is what I want to do for the rest of my life." And that was just really informal, literally sitting around the pool talking. And maybe a year or so later, she called me up and was like, "Hey, have you ever heard of KIPP?" I said, "No. What's KIPP?" And it was, you know, KIPP is a network of nonprofit charter schools. We got talking because she'd come across a role that she thought I might be interested in if I was truly interested in, like, a non-traditional path after practicing law. So I looked at the role, interviewed for it, the person that interviewed me ended up leaving the organization, so the things just kind of died there. But I was really fascinated with what KIPP was doing. I scheduled like a tour when I visited the local schools in Indianapolis. It was just really taken by what I saw. So I was like, "I got to be involved with this." I started volunteering there for about two years. And then fast forward a couple years, they got a big grant. And that executive director said, "Hey, this might be a shot in the dark, but you clearly care about our organization. I'm creating a new role. And I'm wondering if you would be interested in applying for it." So I started working there. So I wasn't in the charter school world then for about the next seven or eight years, I think it was.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:35

What caused you to decide that you wanted to move on from that role, that situation?

Bobby Grimm 04:43

Yeah. So I felt limited in where I could go. I felt a little bit limited in terms of like, I don't know that I want to be pigeonholed into education to finish my career, and I was already approaching that seven or eight-year mark where it was like, "well, a lot of people would probably view me as pigeonholed", so to speak.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:01

It's that eight-year mark, by the way? Eight years where you spent in attorney land. And then eight years... it's the time period for change.

Bobby Grimm 05:11

I guess so. And honestly, that was part of it too. It's just, I think about like the world we live in, it's so normal for a lot of people to move on after a couple three years, it's pretty rare that people stay in a job for their whole career, let alone, or even just the eight years that I did, but I was ready for a change. And then I think I also just was, I can tell that the way I felt on a day-to-day basis over time was just not feeling fulfilled. I was concerned about coming home and carrying the stress, or the frustrations or the dissatisfaction, the wonder, or the wanderlust of like, what else could be next, and I'm not doing anything about it, and that's affecting the way that I come home and act with my kids or with my wife. So there was a part of that. And honestly, I didn't know what was going to be next. So I just knew that where I had been, or where I was, I had sat on it for long enough to know that nagging feeling of wanting to make a change didn't go away. So I finally just had to do something about it. And I put a stake in the ground. I gave nine months' notice saying, "I'd love to finish out the rest of our fiscal year if you'll have me." And that was done without knowing what was next, I was going to figure that out. But I felt like it was the right thing to do to give my colleagues as much notice as possible so that they could kind of work and I could collaborate with them to find my successor or successors.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:50

I love that. That's actually a technique that I've used many times over, where putting that stake in the ground, as you say, causes it to become a reality, or for, in my case, I think about it causes me to make movements I would not otherwise make or more rapidly than I would make without it. And it sounds like that same thing was true for you. Was that something that was uncomfortable at the time? Or did it really just make sense for you and feel very comfortable? What do you remember feeling as you were doing that, as you were having those conversations with the leadership team, as you were talking to the people at your organization and letting them know, "I'm going to... here's the steak, I'm leaving in nine months" what was that like for you?

Bobby Grimm 07:36

Yeah, it was hard at times. I mean, and it was hard throughout, really, the next... until I found my current job. So I mean, I wrestled with it. And I'd say for a couple of different reasons. You know, when I had the conversation with my boss in October, and gave that nine-month notice, part of his response was, "Help me understand why. Because you're really good at what you do. You're doing work that's impactful, and it matters." And he was saying this with all sincerity. And the third thing was, "You like the people you work with" like that's a pretty good combination. And all of that was true. And my response was like, "Yeah, you're right. I think that was one of those moments that I was just realizing that being good at something, though, doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be happy at it, right? Or that it's as fulfilling as something else might be, or something that comes naturally or that best leverages your signature strengths versus, right?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:33

Do you remember what you said at the time to your boss? Do you remember how that conversation went? Or what words you use as you're talking through it?

Bobby Grimm 08:40

Yeah. I think it was similar to... I said, "You're right." I said, "You're 100% right. And I don't know what's next. I just know that I've been kind of thinking about making this change. I've been sitting on it, I've been talking to my wife and friend about it. And literally just trying to figure out if this is like a temporary thing, or if this is... if I'm really ready for that next step. And so, I didn't make this decision lightly. There was a lot of, like, thoughtfulness that went into it." I think I just, going back to the stake in the ground, I think I just said, "I put a lot of thought into it. And that feeling hasn't gone away that I'm just ready for a change. And if I already know now that I'm going to be looking and leaving I'd rather just be as transparent and collaborative with you to help find my successor versus giving you some, you know, two weeks' notice before I leave" and again, there's nothing, like you said, I don't think that it's wrong in a lot of situations to give two weeks notice, but I think for me, I just... I know that if I'm going to be leaving, let's plan for it. And I trusted that they would be right by me in that process, not showing me the door sooner than necessary, and they did.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:52

What do you feel like it was that caused you to decide to seek out other help for moving back into a different type of role?

Bobby Grimm 10:04

I just found myself trying to reflect, trying to think about what I enjoyed, and I think I was doing some of the right things. But one day, I just literally got on and Googled– "How to make a career change?" or something like that. And I found Happen To Your Career pops up. And I see that they have this eight-day mini course. I'm like, "Okay, cool. This sounds great and it's free. This is an easy way for me to have some support to guide me through this process." Well, me being super detail-oriented or thorough, and I think I enjoyed the reflective part of the process as well. That eight-day course probably took me more like a month or two. I don't know.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:49

I could really see you digging into it for sure.

Bobby Grimm 10:52

Yeah, I mean, I literally would sit down and reflect and journal on those things. And then I just got to the point that I felt like... I had looked maybe at some other opportunities as well. But I felt like, if this is the kind of content that you have and can use for free, I'm gonna give them a call. So I scheduled a call, talked to Phillip, and just from the time that I did the 8-day mini-course to talking to Phillip to meeting you, I kind of, and other people in the organization just felt very authentic, like I said before, it's important to me, your normal people who genuinely care about helping people. It's not just the business and maybe if I think that all the other people are normal that means I'm the crazy one. It just felt right. So yeah, started working with you both, and then after that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:44

Well, I have appreciated the opportunity to work with you. And you and I actually got to do something, I don't think we've ever done quite the same way. You and I got to work together for a couple of sessions– two or three sessions at the very beginning– as you're getting started really defining your strengths and beginning to understand how to utilize those for what you want to do next. And I wanted to ask you about the process. After the initial work on strengths, what did you find to be the most challenging parts of making a career change for you, especially in the way that you wanted to do it?

Bobby Grimm 12:26

Yeah, a couple of things come to mind immediately. One was just that it took longer than expected. And part of that was driven by... maybe the, arguably the uniqueness of the type of opportunity that I was looking for. I was also... it took a little while for me, and part because of that, I think, because of just some fits and starts and some of the changes with like my wife's job, I kind of had to run hard at times, slow down at times, deal with stuff with the family, the kids when they're sick, etc. So the duration really wore on me and it was hard. I would also say along the way, this, I wouldn't say that we met and had a few sessions, and all of a sudden, I knew exactly what I was going to chase. And I never deviated from it going forward. I don't think that that's what listeners should really expect, right? I think you're going to start out in the process, discover some things that are important to you, and the types of environments or people and work that you are attracted to. And then you're going to chase that but probably pivot along the way. And it's going to be this nonlinear path, at least for me it was, right? So along the way, throughout this, I think I would think for a moment that I'm chasing the right thing. And I might be really excited about an opportunity even and maybe... and I had a few situations in which I was, I made it pretty far like to a finalist round of interviews, and then didn't land the job. And while that was hard in the moment, something that I subsequently learned from it was, the next time something came along, I was still getting excited about it. I was still... I was like this is actually better than the one before. And I don't think that's because I'm some eternally optimistic person. I'm pretty realistic and practical. But I think that what helped me understand was, there's not just like one dream job out there, there's not just like one path that I could probably follow and be content, or it's gonna, you know, there were multiple different opportunities, all of which checked a number of really key boxes for me. And so when I got to the point, you know, as this process drove on for me, and I started to realize that, I think both with that realization and then also just the conversations with me and my wife, where we had to, again, put a stake in the ground, like, "Okay, it's time for me to get back to work." We put a stake in the ground on July 1st. I need to either be in that new job or really close like wrapping up the final details of one. And once I had realized that there were a number of different paths that I could follow, and I was okay with just saying "yes" to an opportunity and seeing where the path would lead and what unfolded instead of frankly being as picky as I had been, things just... I got a lot more, I started getting a lot more traction. I had far more interviews in that last month or two than I had leading up to that. And then July 1st came and I was sitting on two or three offers, some that were better than others or better fits. But I ended up actually having this interview on July 1st, I remember it was a Friday. And this is the day that I'm supposed to write, I'm supposed to have all of this wrapped up. And I had this interview scheduled for a job I applied for and I had said, I talked to my wife and to Phillip and I think I had a long walk while I talked with my sister the day before, I was like, "Look, I'm sitting on these couple offers, I gotta make a decision." But my sister asked, "Do you have something... Is there anything else like any other irons in the fire?" I said, "Yeah, I've got this interview tomorrow. But I need to make a decision." Like this is the timeframe that I'm working on. And unless they're ready to move light and quick, and they see something in me immediately, I'm not expecting it to happen. Well, that Friday morning interview, the conversation was like, "Hey, we've actually got this other opportunity. Would you be interested in hearing about it? I think you might be a great fit for it." And long story short, that was the job that I'm now in.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:40

Well, here's what I think is fascinating about your story. It is this really interesting, almost paradoxical set of directions. Because initially, you had to put this very firm stake in the ground to get movement forward that caused you to stop looking for, let's call it the perfect thing. And then start looking for things that really check some of the most important boxes and just moving forward on those in order to see what happened. And then, at some point, that had to shift again, that type of mindset in some ways had to actually shift again, because it sounds like you had two or three offers there. And none of them were quite exactly what you were looking for. And you knew that, and you had to almost say, "Okay, well, in some ways going to be slightly less firm and continue looking", as opposed to saying, "Okay, well, these offers are here, the timelines here. And, okay, I just need to pick one of these and not worry about anything else." So it's almost like, in some ways, you had to bounce back and forth from mindset. But I'm wondering if that's how you felt about it? How did you look at that situation? And what would you advise other people, as they're making career changes, how would you advise them to think about this type of process?

Bobby Grimm 17:58

I would just say, for me, by the tail end of it, when I started to see things really happening, it was... I'm sure part of it was a result of a lot of work and preparation that went into things. And I was finally honing in on more of the right things, and approaching those opportunities in the right way or a more effective way, right? I better understood my strengths, I better understood how to articulate my experiences, I had a better understanding and handle on how to explain what I was looking for, and what was important to me. So all of that was real. But I also think that, as I said, part of it was just having the wreck when I finally recognized that there wasn't going to be just this one ideal job, or at some point in the process, I had actually poured a lot of time and effort into creating my own job description, which wasn't a waste of time. But it's also, at least for me, creating my own job description again, after I did that, I would say, kickstart me in the right direction. But I also didn't land where I thought I would, right? And that's okay. I think I learned additional things that were important. My criteria changed a little bit, so to speak. And so when I fast-forwarded towards that tail end, I had a better understanding that I wasn't looking for just one thing. I was looking for a set of criteria and what was going to be the best fit, and I was just willing to... I was more open-minded about saying "yes" to an opportunity that sounded, like, great. Phillip had to often remind me like, "Don't stress about this one that you're not excited about. You don't have to say yes to it", right? "But when there are other ones that are really good fits, you don't know, you never know until you're in it, whether it's going to be great, or maybe it's great for a while and then things change." So when I started to just go into it more with this open mind of being ready to say yes to a good-to-great opportunity, then all of a sudden, it seemed like I was finding more of those good-to-great opportunities. And yeah, trusting the process, I guess, like praying for things and literally moving towards that July 1st. And then on July 1st, the job that I'm in opened up, and I didn't see it coming from anywhere. To me, it felt like it was meant to be. It felt right. It felt, I kind of felt like God had said, "Yeah, here's what you've been working towards." That may not be the way everybody else feels, or you know, and I certainly didn't feel that way every day of the rest of the process, but that's kind of how it all came together. Really.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:41

It's so fascinating to me how you put it, and I say you, but really, this is true of many of the people that we've been able to help guide through career changes in one way or another. Where you put in all of this work, and it's this process of tweaking and evolution and learning and being open to new things, and then changing your mindset and replacing these learnings with new and better learnings and all the things that you mentioned. But then only after that does this crazy serendipitous seemingly almost, like well serendipitous, or, like God put it there, or this was meant to be, or this... those things happen way too frequently to be able to ignore. And in fact, anybody who's listened to this podcast for more than 10 episodes has probably heard that on one or two of those episodes in one way or another. So it's this really interesting observation that I've seen again and again and again, where almost luck or external forces meet preparation. And I think that that is so fun to see. And I think that that's a big element that is hard to pin down for people, and hard to, certainly, it's hard to trust. It's even harder to trust for me. But we keep seeing it happen over and over again. And it's so fun that that's a part of your story.

Bobby Grimm 21:58

Yeah, absolutely.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:59

If you think back to any of those moments where you realize that, "You know what, this is no longer as good as it was. This is no longer what I want anymore." And you're thinking about being right on the edge of that precipice where like, "Should I do this?" "Should I not do this?" "Is it time to create change?" What advice would you give to people who are in that moment and they're trying to decide what's right for them for the next step in the future?

Bobby Grimm 22:25

Yeah, I have thought about this. And I think for me, what it probably boils down to, I mean, I think you kind of nailed it, in some sense. Like, there are jobs that I've had that I was in love with for a while, right, I felt like I had made the right step. It's okay for people to first recognize that things change over time, right? So that one's really fulfilling job, it's not an indictment on the organization, the people you work with, or anything that's wrong with you to decide that you're ready for a change at some point. You might have outgrown that job, it was once the stretch opportunity you are looking for, and now you have conquered it and you're ready for the next thing. But that next thing is just not there in your current organization, whatever it may be. But for me, I think, and I've heard this many times on the podcast, right, people, myself included, will often sit on the decision to make a change for longer than maybe then they should. I think paying attention to how you feel, as you're deciding, though, is part of the process. Like for me, it was, I think I touched on this when I told my boss, leaving my last organization like I had been sitting on it for a long time. And what it ultimately came down to was the idea of something new and different, even if I didn't know what it was, continued to be more exciting than staying where I was. So even though I was more like afraid of, I don't know what I'm going to do, I didn't have any answer for my boss when I left about what was next, I didn't have anything really negative to say about, like, my experience really, like I wasn't leaving because of something had gone awry. I was leaving because something, on the other side of the horizon, just felt like it was calling, right? And that remained true through the ups and downs after I had put in my notice, right? I had opportunities to stay where I was and decided to not chase the career change idea. But again, like what I often found myself, where I found myself landing was, the idea of staying feels more tiring or exhausting or just less exciting than making a change and chasing that, right? And I would say I've seen that in conversations with like, even just with some of my close friends or brother-in-laws, when I've described the change that I did make, some of them are doing great in their careers and they've been there for a while, but part of the response I got was how that sounds really fun and exciting and almost like energizing to just go and do something different. And so paying attention to that, if you feel like that itch that you've been sitting with just isn't going away, then it's probably time to explore it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:23

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put conversation in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with conversation in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:15

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 26:20

When you look at a timeline of your career, not on your own life, but let's just say your career. You know, as I'm reaching my 50s now, what did I want to do with the last 10 years?

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:35

Why is it that so many career changes don't work out? You make the decision to move from one role to another, but a few weeks or months go by, and you find yourself just as unsatisfied as you were in your last job. No good, right? Over and over again, we've heard from people who made unsuccessful career changes before reaching out to us. And it turns out, that when we break down what caused that lack of success is that they didn't necessarily experiment, or put in the time to experiment before jumping into a new role, a new company, a new industry, or something else. They just took a job at face value and expected it to be better than the last without a lot of evidence that it would fit them. This is why we recommend designing career experiments. Not only do they allow you to figure out what you really want without having to commit years to staying with another company or another role that potentially is not a fit. But this process, as it turns out, is far different from just showing up to a new role and expecting it to be rainbows and butterflies.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:42

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep and you get it automatically. Even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week, adios. I'm out.

Jason Bollman 00:01

I had to think through the worst-case scenario and realize that worst case, I would be okay. I would leave the company. I would go figure out something else to do and it'd be fine.

Introduction 00:17

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:42

Big decisions. You know how these work. Our brains usually fight us and they want us to stay in our comfort zones. Plus, if you're like me, you can turn nearly anything into logic. Yes, I know I'm not loving work and my boss is a little way overbearing, but there could be another opportunity four months from now. Many people find themselves torn when it comes to choice, like, staying in the same place versus making a career change. They know, you might even know, and feel deep down inside that something's not right. But we still struggle with taking a chance to actually make a change. Why on earth do we fight what we know to be true in our core? That's the question we're going to dig into today. We see how others reach their goals and we think we must follow in their footsteps to reach the same success. But the truth is, we don't have to follow them. If you want to take more control of your life, this episode is absolutely for you.

Jason Bollman 01:37

I basically came in and said, "Hey, I'm leaving. But I don't know when yet." And they've kept me around. I think that they know that whenever I come and I say, "Hey, I want to take on this thing." I'm not being selfish. I really see opportunity for improvement. So I think it gave me a little bit of a benefit of the doubt by really coming from that value early on.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:56

There's something that gets so often missed. When we're wanting to make a change in our life, of any kind, we're usually focused on what comes next– immediately next, and how do I make that change now, right this second. Here's the reality, though, it's not just the now and the next that is the reason to make a change. Instead, it's actually what comes much later, and what making that initial change has paved the way for that is really the good stuff. And that's why we're bringing Jason back on the podcast, and in a more recent conversation, I had with him two years later, so you can see the impact in his life. And what making that initial change and having those initial awkward conversations with his boss to create a role that fit him, well, you can see what how that turned out, and all the things that opened up for him in the future. So let's go back to where Jason was two years ago.

Jason Bollman 02:58

So as I was making the transition, I was leading a group of consultants at a company. So I was in a management position, I was working on a software solution. So it was still very technical. And I don't know how far back you want to go. But in college, I studied engineering. So the technical piece was really kind of nice. I was working with clients, which also tied into a master's in education that I had. And I was leading a team of 11 people. So I got some management experience that I had always kind of strived for. So on paper, it was exactly the job that I would have crafted for myself. It had all the components that I thought were important to me. But I kind of looked up one day and realized that it doesn't feel right, that this isn't where I want to be, something isn't where it needs to be. And I kind of had gotten to a point where I had spent too much time kind of in my own head and talking with my closest friends and family, and my wife kind of gave me a kick in the pants that I needed to go and work with a business coach. And then working through a coach from Happen To Your Career, identified some things that I needed to change. So I was able to move into a new position within the same company, same department, but instead of leading the consulting team, I took over our offerings of how we were selling the services, and looking over education of the trainings that we do for our clients.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:23

Why did that feel like a better fit to you at the time? What were some of the differences if we're looking back? This is almost two years ago at this point, right?

Jason Bollman 04:32

Yes, yeah, it is. Part of it was personnel as part of moving to this new role. I changed who I reported to, which was a big portion of it. But I also got to really look at, not just delivering on the things that have already been kind of put into a contract and just kind of making sure the machine was still running, I really got to take a step back and look at the bigger picture and help craft some of how are we putting the machine together so to speak. And looking at, you know, the way that we're pricing, "This offering isn't working, let's tweak it. This one's not working anymore, let's just stop selling it. Here's one that we keep hearing complaints of something that we need, let's go ahead and create a new offering." So it's getting a chance to get out of just running the organization and get a chance to kind of craft how it works.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:21

Why was that such a big deal for you that whole idea of crafting how it works, if you will?

Jason Bollman 05:28

Sure. Well, yeah, as part of working through my time with my coach, she kind of helped me identify that I have a bit of an entrepreneurial bug in me. So getting a chance to kind of not just be the frontline manager and get a chance to look at kind of how the mechanics work behind the business was definitely appealing with the idea of eventually branching out and running my own organization. So that definitely was a big piece of it. And I think it also, part goes back to kind of the tie-in with my engineering education background, being able to kind of take things apart and put them back together. So it's really kind of twofold there for sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:07

Okay, so that whole entrepreneurial bug, I know we talked a little bit about that briefly when we had you on the first time. But it sounds like you've been able to nurture that a little bit in what was a new role at the time for you. Now, let's get into what's happened since then. Have you been able to nurture that anyplace else?

Jason Bollman 06:27

Yeah, I feel like there's been a lot that's changed in the last few years. And even within the role that I'm in now, it has kind of morphed even further. Over the last few years, our company has acquired over 15 different businesses. So I've gotten involved in some of the merger acquisition pieces, not so much before the deal, right, of due diligence and any of that type of work. But after we bought the company, looking at how do they run their professional services, operations, kind of aligning it with what we do, making sure that they have what they need from a systems perspective. So that's been a really exciting piece that I've been able to work on with many of those 15 acquired companies. And then as a result, so my role has kind of transformed less so much looking at the offerings that we're selling and more looking at the operations of the departments and helping to: one, set the standard and, two, make sure that the new people coming in are working towards that standards. That was something that maybe two years ago, I didn't necessarily know that I wanted. But, as I've been going through, it's something that I definitely enjoy. And I'm glad that I've been able to get that opportunity and my role kind of transforming into this operations.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:42

That is very cool. Where else have you been able to satisfy that entrepreneurial bug?

Jason Bollman 07:48

I did do some kind of testing that kind of played out, being a coach myself with some people that I knew. And it didn't quite fulfill me in the way that I was envisioning. But probably even more so as I did a lot of networking with other like-minded people that are in a job that have entrepreneurial aspirations and got into a mastermind group through a mutual friend. So I've been part of that probably for the last year and a half now. And what's really interesting is, as I was meeting more entrepreneurial-minded people, people that had started their own businesses that were kind of running things, I realized that entrepreneurs are a unique breed that they're very much at... I see everything as an opportunity. They're nonstop full of ideas and things that they want to start and just dive in and take action. And I realized in talking with them that I had some of that, but I'm a lot more analytical and like to think things through, I don't have a million ideas kind of coming to me all the time. And I realized that I'm more of the kind of the integrator working alongside a visionary to help take these, you know, 100 different ideas of what the business could be, and breaking it down into, okay, what are we specifically going to take action on. So not only was my role transforming at work, it was kind of simultaneously as I was self-identifying that I'm probably more of a better number two running kind of operations behind the scenes of a new business, as opposed to kind of just going out and doing it all on my own.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:17

That's super cool. And you mentioned this concept of designing small experiments. But for you, it sounds like that was pretty interesting, but also critical in allowing you arrived to some of those conclusions that, "Hey, maybe I'm not meant to be necessarily the visionary type portion of it." And when you say entrepreneurial, there's some very specific things that you mean and are associated with that now, and it sounds like had you not done a little bit of that experimentation, you wouldn't have had that type of feedback to be able to come to those conclusions. Am I getting that right, first of all? And then I'm curious what else you learn from that?

Jason Bollman 09:59

Yeah. No, I think you're right on with that. And part, right, I had kind of in my head what being an entrepreneurial person meant. And I think as I've been going on this journey, I'm realizing it doesn't necessarily have to be the same for every person. But there are the people that have started numbers of businesses and they're in their lifetime, right, grow and sell or maybe it doesn't work out and they start a new thing, you know, they do have a certain type of characteristic. But that doesn't mean that that's the only type of people that can get into business ownership and can be an entrepreneur. So I'm continuing to learn and see how I fit into that room, even though I'm realizing that I'm more of the operations person, as opposed to kind of a traditional founder that you might, or at least that I thought of up to this point.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:48

Yeah. So with that transition two years ago, where you shifted into a completely different role but still within the same organization, and it sounds like even similar section of the company, what do you feel like was the biggest thing that you learned during that transition?

Jason Bollman 11:04

The biggest thing I learned was just how much things just keep changing. You know, and part where we acquired a lot of companies. But it's, you know, as I went into that role, I really was excited to work on the offerings of how we sell our consulting services. But what I learned as I went through that is that really, it was more the training piece that our senior leadership was looking to really grow. The consulting arm was doing pretty well. And yeah, we could tweak offerings, and there's some new opportunities that are out there. But training had really been something that hadn't been being successful. And so I ended up having to put a lot more of my time towards that than the offering piece. And so, it just kind of goes to show that businesses grow and evolve and change, and the market kind of dictates how things turn out. And so as we were working on improving the trainings, we were finding that a lot of clients really wanted small, quick hits, free trainings that give them just the simple stuff, they weren't looking to buy full day training courses to cover everything A to Z. And so we continually had to keep kind of tweaking what we're putting together to meet what the clients were asking for.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:16

That's interesting. How have you seen that set of learnings then impact both your work and as well as anything you have done outside of that role over the last two years?

Jason Bollman 12:29

It's a good question. I think it's still lessons that I'm learning. As I look branching out on my own and partnering as kind of an operations person that you can't come up with a product offering, kind of in a vacuum, you need to really get a good handle on what people are asking for. And probably even more importantly, is what they're willing to pay for it. Because even if they tell you that, "This is exactly what I want", and you put it together, it doesn't necessarily mean that they're gonna pay you for it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:53

This is... I feel like this is the lesson that anybody that's affiliated with any kind of business or marketing or sales or product development, all of those touch this exact area. I, myself, have had to learn this lesson multiple times. So I'm so glad to hear that you're getting to learn it and have been learning it on an ongoing basis over the last two years. What do you think... And totally different question for you. But you know, I was just thinking about your transition. And I think that what you did, and if you want to listen to his past episodes so that you have the context, definitely go back and listen to that because I think you did a really nice job. One, clarifying more about what you wanted. And I know that's part of the reason we got to sit front row is we're working with you on that. But then, you went and had what can be some more difficult conversations for some people in the world to be able to express how you wanted something different, or we're interested in taking on different types of projects, and then that evolved into a new opportunity. One, am I remembering that correctly? It's been a long time since we had that conversation. And then two, my question from that is, as you were doing that, what really helped you to navigate through that? Because it wasn't a one-and-done type process. It was an ongoing thing that kept evolving if I understood correctly.

Jason Bollman 14:25

Yeah. And it's interesting, you know, sitting here now, trying to think back because I feel like I've had numerous kind of similar type of conversations since then, maybe to a lesser degree, but because I had that first conversation, I think it's been easier to bring up "hey, here's where I see I can add a lot of value in kind of the acquisition front" and "hey, I'm certain to realize that I liked separation stuff. Can I, you know, take on more of those types of things?" But you know, I'm remembering back two years ago when I went in and said, "Hey, this role isn't for me. I'm looking to make a change." It was really scary. I was mentally preparing that they were going to, you know, show me to the door. And that was going to be the end of my career at the company. It was very intimidating. And so I think part of it was, I had to think through the worst case scenario and realize that worst case, I would be okay. I would leave the company, I would go figure out something else to do, and it would be fine. It might not be my ideal, but it would be okay. I think the other part of it as I was going in the conversation, is I was thinking about what was best for me, but I was also framing it in value add to the company, as well. You know, I came from a standpoint of I'm trying to be very transparent. I also picked that timing because we were looking at kind of year-end evaluations, and they were determining raises and bonuses. You know, I came in and said that I wanted to make it known that I wasn't leaving immediately. But I probably wasn't going to be here, at least, in this role long term. And if they wanted to reallocate some funds around that, they could do that. And I think coming from a place of value add and looking at the big picture, and what's best for the company, as well as yourself, made that a much easier conversation. And then on the back end, I was just 100% ready that if they showed me the door, that it would be painful, and it'd be hard, but I would be okay.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:14

I'm thinking about that. And I've been in that exact situation, and it is hard. But I think that's something else that we all know to be true is that, you know, when we can come up with those worst-case scenarios, rarely does the worst-case scenario actually happen. I would say that from all of the conversations that I have ever been a part of, or been witness to, or been on the receiving end of, or being been on the opposite end of whatever experience, almost all of them turn out way better than what people imagine they will be as long as they're doing what you said, which is going into it, trying to look at how do we make this a win-win. How can this be, not just good for me, but also good for the company? And how can I approach it in that partnership-type mentality? So one, really nice job doing that. Because it's easy to sit here, you know, two years later on a podcast and say that. It's much more difficult to actually do that in the moment, right? But I'm curious about something that you said, you said, "Hey, since then, since I've had that initial conversation or set of conversations, it's been much easier to bring up the same type of topic." And it sounds like part of what you meant was continuing to structure or create your career path or evolve your position, or you tell me what you meant by that when you were saying it. But also, what's made it easier?

Jason Bollman 17:36

Yeah. I mean, I think it's, as I mentioned, business evolves, you know, I'm learning more about myself and kind of what I envision my career being that I keep seeing little tweaks and little room for improvements and projects that I'd like to get more involved in, or projects that I'm doing but really aren't in my strength zone. And it's all those types of conversations of trying to take on more work that's interesting. And the things that you're doing that aren't exciting that you know, might not be as important. Are there other people or other ways that we can get that done to free up more of your time? So those have been kind of the types of conversations I've been having. I think why it's been easier, I think first because I, myself, went through that first conversation. And it turned out way better than I had expected. So there's a little bit less fear every other time I go in. And I also think right to the organization, since I basically came in and said, "Hey, I'm leaving, but I don't know when yet." And they've kept me around. I think that they know that whenever I come and I say, "Hey, I want to take on this thing." I'm not being selfish. I really see opportunity for improvement. So I think it gave me a little bit of benefit of the doubt by, you know, really coming from that value early on.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:51

That's so interesting, especially since anytime, not anytime, but a lot of the times when we talk about these types of difficult conversations that you might have with a boss or your boss's boss, or anybody who has influence and whether maybe you stay or go or has some kind of power or authority, there is that trepidation or is that fear there, and we do jump to those worst case scenarios. But what I'm hearing you say is that from your experience, having that initial conversation has led to a lot of, I would say, far-reaching impacts as well because now, not only is it easier for you, because you've done it, you've gotten the t-shirt, been there practiced and you feel more confident about it, it sounds like. But then two, something else that it sounds like maybe you didn't anticipate is they consider when you come and have a conversation. It sounds like your words carry more weight now as well because they know what is behind them. And I'm guessing probably a higher level of credibility too.

Jason Bollman 20:00

Yeah, definitely. It's funny as you're saying that I realized that it does happen. And I don't know that it's necessarily that I think that I'm smarter or better than anyone else, it's just, you know, I keep showing up and trying to figure out what's best for the business. And I think that's what then takes what I say with, you know, seems to have a little bit more clout.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:20

I love that. So, I'll give you some context for why I love that so much. Actually, there's a lot of different reasons, way more than we have time for within this conversation. But Jason, I get emails, I would say, almost every day, from people that are in a situation where they feel like they have bosses or companies that are taking advantage of them in one way or another. And well, that is true, more than I would like to think about, that does happen from time to time. But when I start digging in with these people, or as my team has conversations with them, a lot of times we realize that there are behaviors there where they're allowing people to take advantage of them, basically, because they're saying, "Hey, it's okay to treat me this way." And you know, whether that is simply continually working past business hours, many, many, many, many, many, many days in a row, maybe they haven't actually told them differently, or anything else. But the reason that I love the conversations that you've had so much is because part of what you did, whether you meant to or not, is you began drawing boundaries there, and declaring what you actually wanted and needed in a way that was good for you and the organization. And that is something that really is difficult to do for all the reasons that we've talked about. But it paves the way to being able to continue to do so again, and again, and again and again. And this is the world's longest compliment ever. But really nice job. So...

Jason Bollman 21:54

Thank you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:54

Yeah, absolutely. And I'm curious since you've been there done that, what advice would you give to people that might find themselves in that situation where they want to take more control of their career path? Or they want to have some of these more difficult conversations with their boss or boss's boss or whoever might have a vested interest there?

Jason Bollman 22:15

Yeah, I would recommend starting small, right? My example is, I came in and said, "You know, this role entirely is not for me, and I'm going to make some sort of change, whether it's right a different role in the company, or whether I leave the company entirely." But if you can pick a specific area, right, where it's, you know, maybe you want to work from home one day a week because there's a lot of distractions in the office, and how can you frame if I work from home, in afternoon, here's the results of where I got more work done. I was interrupted less, you know, I didn't have as many people stopping by and I was able to get the really important things done, right? Start with something small like that, or whatever is your biggest pain point. And then just focus on on that little ask where it's not this big, massive thing that you're going to have to change in your role, it's just one thing where maybe one day a week or one day a month, you don't have to fight with traffic, you can get a little bit more done, and you kind of buy yourself a little bit of room where you don't feel like the company is taking advantage of you, and then go back and show that by doing that you were able to produce more, and it's really helping the company out as well.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:24

I really liked that idea of starting small, then it's not so intimidating too, like, you were talking about, hey, I was super fearful about what was going to happen and imagining the worst case scenario as you went in and have that big conversation. But if that had happened over time, and had already built up that credibility and relationship by asking for smaller things, then maybe who knows, maybe it wouldn't have been so intimidating that way. So I love that advice. What do you feel like has been in your life, career or otherwise, over the last two years, the biggest place that you have learned to control or influence it in a way that you didn't before?

Jason Bollman 24:06

It's an interesting question. I think similarly to what I was saying before, it's obviously still learning, right? I hadn't been in a management role, right? So I had people that reported directly to me. And in some ways, that's almost kind of easier to influence because you can say, "Hey, this is what we need to do. Let's make this the priority over that other thing." And people that work for you will go ahead and do it. When you have your peers or even right, your boss or your boss's boss, that you need to get action taken care of for a project to be done, it's a lot harder to influence. And so I think it's really what I've learned so far, is framing out what you're trying to accomplish, how it's going to be a value add and trying to be as specific as you can of, "this is what I need and this is when I need it by", and then when they don't deliver, you know, because they're busy people, great following up and not in a negative way, but "how can I help? Is there anything I can do? Do you need additional information? Is there anyone else that can also help with this?" That has been somewhat helpful, although it is still challenging to get busy people to get things done. So I'm still learning and growing in that area for sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:13

Amazing. Anything else that you want people to know?

Jason Bollman 25:18

Yeah, I don't know if so much to know. But I mentioned right, the entrepreneurial piece, one thing that hasn't kind of come up yet. So a mastermind that I was a part of, the guy that runs it was looking to kind of expand his business. And I've had the opportunity to partner with him and launch online membership platform. It's a pretty small group. But could we get together, it's other people that are identifying a business they might want to launch or just getting a business off the ground, or have recently gotten off the ground and kind of want to make sure that they keep it moving. And so I think maybe the lesson there is, right, there's probably a lot of people in your current network that you're already interacting with that can help you get to that next stage, that can partner with you, whether that's in your job, whether that's people you know outside of your business, whatever the case may be, I think there's more untapped potential in our lives than what we realize. And I think if you really get clear on what you want, and you tell people what you're looking to do, there will be things like the partnership that I was able to form out of the mastermind to go and start working on the side and building up a membership platform that we then hope to kind of keep growing and turn into a full business.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:34

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put conversation in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with conversation in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:26

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 27:32

I think that was one of those moments that I was just realizing that being good at something, though, doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be happy at it. Or that is this fulfilling as something else might be.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:46

I think all the time when people find our podcast, they think about, "Well, I must not enjoy my job", or, "This is for people who don't really like their work and want to do something that they actually do like." And actually what we find is that's not always the case. What about if you were changing careers, and you've had a job that actually was something that you really enjoy, and maybe you've even found that it's impactful, or it's what we might call "meaningful work" or "more fulfilling work", and you're even great at your job because you're using your strengths, and you have a team that you love working with? Okay, so if your current role checks these boxes, you might wonder why you still feel that tug to make a change. Is it possible to justify leaving what many people might consider a great career? The short answer is yes. The grass may actually be greener on the other side.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:42

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep and you get it automatically. Even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week, adios. I'm out.

Karen Guttentag 00:01

I bought into the model of career ascension, you know. You go from better to better to better, and that's the direction things are supposed to go– more responsibility, better title, more money.

Introduction 00:21

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:45

Why is our culture so obsessed with job titles and job status? Just think about how often we ask and are asked by others, "So what do you do?" This inflated importance of career causes people to believe they have to find all of their fulfillment and everything they could possibly need within the constraints of their career, which can very easily lead to work consuming your entire life. And when, not if, when that all-consuming job begins conflicting with your priorities, like, health, family, whatever it may be, something will have to give. So then the question becomes, what is the life that you want to build? And where does work fit into that?

Karen Guttentag 01:30

You know, I used to joke for years about "Oh, look, it's five o'clock, I think I'll close down my computer and leave it here and come back the next day and not think about work. Ha ha ha." You know, as though that were a fever dream. And now, that's my life.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:45

That's Karen Guttentag. Karen worked with the Peace Corps, was an associate dean of Middlebury College for 18 years, and then became the Dean of Students for a private boarding school. When the pandemic hit at the same time as multiple family emergencies, Karen realized her work was keeping her from her true priorities. This caused her to begin asking some pretty big questions about what she really wanted her life to look like. And ultimately, she took a career break from everything to figure that out. Karen challenged herself to deconstruct her belief around what work should be and realize that the roles that aligned with the life she wanted to live, well, they weren't as high status as her previous all-consuming roles have been. Now, if we fast forward to the end, Karen landed a new role that she loves, that gives her all the components she was looking for in a career as well as the time and space to be with her daughter and do other things she enjoys. But I just skipped a whole bunch of pretty important details, including a lot of challenges Karen overcame. So let's get into that conversation.

Karen Guttentag 02:50

I was an English major at a school in Minnesota, English and African-American Studies. And I remember sort of thinking, "I guess this is kind of an important summer. This summer, before I graduate, I should do something with it." So I went into the summer, feeling like I really didn't know what I wanted to do. But I had this idea, "You know, I'm an English major in African-American studies, I should try publishing." And so of course, this is speaking of age back at the time of the phone book, and I, you know, living in Massachusetts, and I had no idea of how to find a job in publishing. So I actually opened up the phonebook, literally, and called every publishing company in the state of Massachusetts, of which there were many, I must say, more than you might imagine, probably at least 30, and did my chippie little liberal arts graduate, you know, our liberal arts college student thing and said, "Hi, you know, I'm an English major, and I'm interested in learning more about publishing. And would you be willing to create an internship for me this summer, so I can work in your office and learn more about publishing?" And I finally got a job with Zoland Books, the last publishing company listed in the phonebook.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:59

You went A to Z, all the way through.

Karen Guttentag 04:02

Yeah. And it ended up being great. And my next job, I sort of went about the same way in a new location. So it was kind of a tacky little operation. But I think it instilled within me this idea that I can create opportunities for myself. And that was pretty empowering. And that's exactly what I did after I graduated from college. I still didn't know what I wanted to do, but a friend and I decided we wanted to live in Portland, Maine. So that's where we went. And I called up all the publishing companies there and lo and behold, I got a job with Intercultural Press, which was this publishing company that did all kinds of materials on multicultural, cross-cultural, international, intercultural topics. So, topically, it was fantastic. The experience was completely demoralizing. And I probably shouldn't have said the name it doesn't actually exist anymore. I think they went out of business, which is kind of shocking because they had like a niche market at that time.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:04

Interesting.

Karen Guttentag 05:04

Nobody else was doing this kind of stuff. But I was miserable. I was behind a computer the entire time, I was an editorial assistant and Assistant to the President, I was making $8 an hour, which was tough going. And it was my first job after college. And I really had this sense of like, oh, this is going to tell me who I am as a professional. And my boss was really quite abusive. She was very unpredictable. And she really had me believing that it was a huge favor, that she was even paying me a salary because I just had nothing to offer the world. So it was really crushing to me in terms of my sense of myself as a professional. But during that time, I was so miserable, I again, sort of decided, "Alright, I'm gonna research this. I'm going to figure out. I'm gonna do the self-assessments. I'm gonna go to the library. I'm gonna do the tests and figure out what I want to do. I'm gonna start informational interviewing with people", which was very helpful. And started to put together my list of criteria, which started with everything opposite from what I was currently experiencing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:13

That's always where it starts, right?

Karen Guttentag 06:14

It was. Yes. And I was really lucky because I didn't know that it always happens this way. And it didn't really happen to me this time. But I have the experience of, you know, through a series of conversations and interviews and continuing to sort of zig and zag, and hone and refine, I hit on the job. And I knew exactly what it was. And it was like the three cherries on the slot machine and checked off all of my boxes, which was college admissions. And I had all my different criteria that events planning and doing something that felt meaningful and being in a beautiful environment and having variety and having... And one of the things was I wanted work that had a sense of completion at the end. And you know, I found that when I was working on editorial stuff, we always had like seven or eight things going on at once. And there was no point at which you sort of said, "We did it! You know, and now we're moving on to something else, we're growing something, we're changing." You know, it just felt like it was sort of an endless cycle. So all of these different components, so I was in Portland, Maine, and not far from Bowdoin College. And I had gone to a small liberal arts college. And so I reached out to the Director of Admissions who I did not know being in admissions, and asked him to go to coffee with me and did my little proposal and said, "If I quit my job, and I know I want to do admissions, I have no experience whatsoever. But it's what I really want to do. And if I quit my job and come volunteer for you, can you give me enough experience so that I can be a viable job candidate in the spring?" And he said, "Yes." And it was no dummy free labor. And so I ended up just doing this volunteering for three months. And I was right. It was everything that I wanted to do. And lo and behold, I was a viable job candidate. And there weren't any openings at Bowdoin that year. But there was an opening at Lafayette College, and I got it. And then as soon as there was an opening at Bowdoin the next year, I came back and worked there for another four years. And I loved it. I was absolutely right about all the things that I would love. What I had not anticipated and what had not particularly been on my list of things that I was looking for, was working with college students. I hadn't realized that that was any sort of component of the job. And it's not a huge component of the job. But I directed the tour guide program. So I worked with all of the student tour guides, and then I ultimately took on international admissions, and there was no white person at that time for international students. So I kind of became the de facto Dean for international students. And all of the students that I got to know during the admissions process I felt some sort of connection to and responsibility for. And we tended to do expanded programs for minoritized student populations. So I spent more time with them in the admissions process. So I had a strong connection with them. So I was doing all of this deaning, which was not really my job, but I just loved working with these students. And I think for them, I was a person who they felt had kind of seen them through the process and knew where they came from and created some sense of affirmation and continuity for them. And people kept sort of saying, "You should be a Dean. This is, like, why aren't you doing this?" And part of me said, "Yep, this is what I love. This is what I want to do." But I had two qualms, one of which was that if I followed that path at that point in my life, and went and got a graduate degree, and then got a job as a Dean at a place like Carleton or Bowdoin, that my whole life would be in these ivory towers, and I was 28 at the time, and I wasn't quite comfortable with that choice. And the other was that most of the students I was working with, as I said, were sort of the minoritized population or international students, or in some way, marginalized, and working with them was raising a lot of social justice issues that they were experiencing, about inclusion, about community, about access, and structural issues. And I wasn't totally sure if what I loved about working with them was the working with students part or all of the social justice issues and community problem solving and access issues. So I decided to punt and I took in the Peace Corps.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:45

That is the left turn that I did not see coming in the story. I think I knew that was in there someplace, I didn't know that was it.

Karen Guttentag 10:52

That's where it was. And a big part of that was because I was working so closely with the international students. And I was just so inspired by their courage and the transformation and the challenges that they were experiencing going around the world to put themselves in these new environments. And I felt like I wanted to have that growth experience too. The Peace Corps conversation could take a really long time. So I'm not going to get into the details of the story in great depth.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:18

I'm curious also, what else took place that led up to you making this most recent career change?

Karen Guttentag 11:26

The most recent career change, it was sort of a two-part change. So I was in the Peace Corps, and then we were evacuated, and then I worked for a nonprofit, and then I was ready to become a Dean and went to graduate school and became a Dean and was at Middlebury College for 18 years. And that position ultimately unfolded in a way over a period of time that it was no longer meeting my needs, it was no longer pleasurable, I had sort of taken on a lot of work that nobody else really wanted to do that I actually happen to be quite passionate about, and that was the nine-five work. But between that and doing Student Conduct work, both of which I cared about a great deal. But I found that the positions really compromised my ability to have the kind of relationships with students that I wanted. I was able to enact the structural changes that felt important to me and meaningful and felt like I was doing the right thing by students in building these programs and deepening them. But in the community itself, I felt increasingly isolated. Because when you are associated with, wherever you are associated with, you know, with Student Conduct work, you just don't have the same kinds of relationships with students. And in some ways, it wasn't appropriate for me to have those kinds of relationships with students. And in college administration, the higher you get, the less you're actually working with students, the more you're doing either crisis management or budget, or politics or policy, and I felt like okay, well, I like some of that, I like doing the structural change, I like thinking about systemic, and cultural issues and all of that. But I don't want to sacrifice my ability to actually be working in the weeds with students. So it seemed like a good idea to take the Dean of Students position that I think, at the college level would have had me more isolated, and translate it to a high school level where I understood that I could do both, that the administrative machinery was not so deep that I couldn't both work really closely with students and also have some big picture responsibilities. And so it seemed like it was going to be a really great combination. And I also felt like I had the idea of the opportunity to kind of be in charge of a community in this way, with all of the things that I had learned about student needs. And students that I had seen show up in college, really in need of certain skills and experiences and knowledge that they weren't getting in high school, I felt like let me have this, like, this is awesome, I'm gonna get to really create something special and build on a community and help them really to develop in ways that both will create a really meaningful experience for students at the high school level and set them up for success beyond. And I found a progressive school that really aligned with my value system. And I thought that I had just nailed it. And so as you do in a new job, you say, "Okay, well, let me just take some time to get the lay of the land first and then figure out how I can help and make sense and get a better sense of what the community's needs are and start to figure things out." So I took my first few months to do that. And then the pandemic hit. And then it all bets were off and it just became two and a half years of reaction of reactive work of trying to help an institution navigate at a very human level, at an institution level, a global crisis. And from a position of responsibility in a community that I was really only beginning to understand, and everything that I knew about it was about to be changed. So it was a very, very challenging period of time. And I was also... I'm a single mom and had a fourth grader who needed pretty full attention at the time when my job was requiring me to be literally all hands on deck all the time, living on campus and trying to parent her and help her to get through this experience in a way that was going to be best for her, while I was also responsible for 227 other students, and the experience of the entire staff and faculty, you know, with a pretty small administrative team, kind of doing all the decision making was really quite impossible. And had a number of personal challenges occur along the way, it was a really unfortunate period of time where the first of September, my best friend died.

Karen Guttentag 16:27

And next fall, my mom got breast cancer. That winter, my dad died. That spring, my dog got... Just like I just couldn't kind of get out of it. So by the middle of the third year, I had really wanted to stay for at least four years, I wanted to sort of see it through the crisis and help to rebuild, but I just was depleted on every level, and was roadkill.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:27

Oh, wow.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:58

I think at some point, you have no more left to give too. So I understand the thought of being able to stay and finish it out. And I think that comes from a good place. Also, at the same time, it sounds like the state you were in, at that point in time, you had given much of what you had been able to give and already served in that way. So what happened from there?

Karen Guttentag 17:22

Well, and I think for me, it also came down to I just felt like I was an absentee parent. I felt like I was really, really, like, my child was number 227 that I was responsible for and that just was not okay. So I think my initial plan was, as I said, do what I've done before, you know, figure out what do I want more of, what do I want less of, what does that look like, and how do I get that job. But at that point, my whole landscape was just so different. It wasn't just, I need a new job. It was, I don't even have the vision to figure out what that should be. I'm scrapping the whole plan. It's not about what I need more of and what I need less of. I just need this to stop. And I didn't have a vision for what was going to come next, which was different for me. Normally, I had been able to kind of rely on that calculation to help me figure out with, not with ease, but with success.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:27

Yes.

Karen Guttentag 18:28

What was going to serve me better? And in this stage in my life, I just, I was so exhausted that I couldn't even get there. And trying to do that, while I was also in the middle of this chaos, and still actually needing to show up as the Dean of Students. And while I was trying to ask these big life questions about where and what and how my life was gonna look like I didn't have the bandwidth to do it all. And several people had to tell me the same thing before it finally sunk in that I just needed to put that off and say, "You know what, get through the rest of this year. And then take a break." And you can't catch the next trapeze because you can't catch anything, right? You need to drop in the net right now. And my mother was thankful enough to say, move back home, as I've said we'd lost my dad, and take as much time as you need to just regroup, figure things out, take your time so that you can make a really good decision. So that was a pretty important decision for me to give up the idea of, you know, to get comfortable with the idea of being unemployed for a while. And psychologically, it was pretty uncomfortable.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:50

What was the most uncomfortable part for you?

Karen Guttentag 19:53

Not having a great new shiny title to be able to say, "I gave up this and now I'm doing this", you know, I think you sort of buy... I bought into the model of career ascension– you go from better, to better, to better, and that's the direction things are supposed to go. More responsibility, better title, more money. And so going from being a Dean of Students to being unemployed, and kind of losing that work identity for a significant period of time was hard for me and not so hard that I wasn't willing to do it but uncomfortable nonetheless, and something I kind of had to make peace with.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:37

What helped you? Because I think that that is a huge challenge we experience for many people that we get the opportunity to work with. And when we see that firsthand, a lot of times people expect it not to be as uncomfortable as it can be, that identity challenge, that I can't now represent or I don't know, hide behind whatever way you want to look at it. But what specifically worked for you as you were maneuvering through that challenge?

Karen Guttentag 21:10

Well, it hit me at different points. I mean, I guess I would say it was kind of a two-part experience. Part one was being unemployed. And part two was ultimately taking a position that on an org chart was a significant step down from my previous position, and they were two different but related challenges. And I would say, probably the, what did help me to get through it. I mean, what helped me, one thing was, I did not have a choice, you know, I could not take a job right at the time I was leaving my previous job, I just was so exhausted, I was really roadkill, and so I sort of had to. And I think what helped me was being able to articulate, being able to feel like I was still being productive like I was on a journey, I wasn't just sort of hanging out, you know, I was actively trying to figure things out, I was actively working to explore possibilities and talk with people and reflect and read and research, and that was my full-time job. So I guess I always felt like there was motion. It wasn't just I was sitting on the couch watching TV waiting for something to fall into my lap, I was actively engaged in a process. And it was not always a clear process. I didn't have the cherries on the slot machine experience. Earlier of being like, "I know what I want, and I know how to get it." And that was really hard too. So I would say for that stage of it, you know, the unemployment stage, it was getting comfortable with my elevator speech, I guess being able to say, "I left a job, and I'm really not sure where I'm going next. So I'm taking the time to, you know, I'm really lucky to have the time to be able to really figure it out and do some thoughtful research before I make my next move." And that's where I'm at right now.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:10

Yeah. Let's talk about the process of career change this time around. So specifically, you mentioned that in the past, you sort of knew what to do, and had certainly some experiences that had caused you to build confidence and how to make past changes. This time around, the season of life was very, very different. And one of the things you and I chatted very briefly about before we started recording was the idea of it being too late. And I think that this is part of why many people feel like it is too late in some ways to make another significant change in one way or another in your, not just career, but life. And so I guess what I'm curious about for you is, what caused you to feel like this was a must for you? And what was so different in this season of life for you compared to previous?

Karen Guttentag 24:15

I think in my previous job exploration moments and job shifts, my primary questions had been, "What do I most want to be doing now? What job is going to be the closest to the optimal reflection of work that matters to me that I think is important, that allows me to use all of the skills that I love the most, and a community that's going to be a great environment to work in with a salary that's going to allow me a certain lifestyle that I want?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:53

Sure.

Karen Guttentag 24:54

And I am really lucky that I've been able to have positions like that. And this time around, I realized that that could not be... I think I wanted it, I think when I first started the job search, that's what I was aiming for. And I realized that that calculation was just not reflective of what my needs were at this stage in my life, that I really needed to take into account, my health, my emotional health, my physical health, my child, and the level of availability that I wanted and needed to have for her after school and in the evening and on weekends, both sort of temporal availability and emotional availability. And that if I were solely going for the job based on that initial goal of me and most fulfilling to me and the work that's going to be perfectly hitting my challenge level, and you know, the right level of responsibility and all of that, that in all of my past experiences, that's not nine to five work. That is high stress, high responsibility, often evenings, often weekends, and often emotionally entangling kind of work that was really incompatible with the kind of availability and focus that I knew I really needed to offer to my child at this stage in life, and having to sort of realize that I was not going to be able to thread that needle was a really big aha moment for me and a little bit of a sad one, but a really important one.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:44

What made it sad for you? Was that back to the, how you viewed in your identity, or was it something else?

Karen Guttentag 26:50

I think a couple of things. Logistically, I realized that what that meant was that in order to live independently, I was going to need to get a job that paid that much, and that involved that much responsibility. And that the idea of taking on that big a job in order to live independently was going to mean, I wasn't going to be able to be the kind of parent I want it to be as a single mom, that I couldn't do all of those things, that if she and I were still aiming for independent living, I was going to need an all-absorbing job. And that the trade-off was therefore going to be the parenting that was a primary motivation for making the change. And I couldn't figure out how to check all those boxes. Again, it felt like I was trying to thread a needle, a job with all of these great qualities and meeting all of my professional needs that was also going to let me leave at five and have plenty of flexibility on the afternoons where I needed to, you know, drive around or whatever and not take homework on the weekend, I don't think it exists. Or if it does exist in a way that would appeal to me, I couldn't find it. And so I realized that I was going to have to make some trade-offs. And that if I really wanted to prioritize my child and my own health and well-being, I needed to decide that I wasn't going to be able to live independently, that we were going to stay living with my mom, at least for the next five years for her to get through high school in ways that would allow me to take a lower paying lower stress job in order to prioritize the availability for her and my parenting and my health. And it's interesting, that concept came to me right before Phillip actually recommended a book to me that kind of crystallized that idea, a lot of what I had been thinking and experiencing, which was the good enough job, you know, which is not rocket science, but he pulls together the themes very effectively of the perils of all of the reasons why we have developed in this culture and in many cultures in ways that center our work as the primary focus of our identity. And everything else sort of revolves around our work identity, and we look to work to meet so many of our needs around our sense of efficacy and our social agendas and our political agendas and our professional growth and our sense of purpose. And when we put all of those eggs in one basket and the basket falls, then all of these different dimensions of your life are implicated, which was exactly what I had experienced in the last 20 years of my career, both in my job at the college and my job at the boarding school, was everything focused on my work life. And I mean in the boarding school I was literally living at work. You know, work-life separation was not a possibility.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:05

It was not a thing.

Karen Guttentag 30:08

Right. And so, from this book, you know, what he talks about is really the importance of rethinking what role do you want work to play in your life. And how can you ensure that all of the other dimensions of your life are rich and meaningful and areas that you can develop independent of whatever it is that allows you to earn money, and not look to your work to be all of those things? And making that shift was what allowed me to say, "Okay, I'm going to find a job that I think will be enjoyable, that will allow me to go back to for me, what was the core of why I got into higher ed in the first place, and that was working with students and come in at a level of responsibility that is not going to overwhelm the rest of my life, that's going to allow me to really prioritize these other areas." In a million years, I did not see myself living with my mother, in my childhood home in the suburbs of Massachusetts. But also coming to recognize that for my daughter, being in this period of limbo, was really having a poor effect on her that she was in this prolonged state of, in a new community. And I wish she just started a brand new middle school in seventh grade coming from a school in which she was, you know, one of 12 6th graders to being in a 900-person middle school. And this experience of not knowing when she was going to leave, and if she was going to leave and where she was going to go and what was coming next, and how long she was going to stay was making it very hard for her to actually put down roots in this community and plug into her school experience and plug into her social experiences and her friendships. And I really saw that, and that she really needed the stability of knowing where she was going to be for the next few years. And that I had to make a career decision that was going to meet, not just my needs, but her needs, which I'd never really had to make before. Other than that, most of my career decisions were meeting her needs to the extent that it was allowing me to live independently, that's what it meant and not travel. And this time, it meant staying where we were in a good school system and a financial situation that would allow me to take a job that would let me be available to her. And that's been... It's not what I thought this stage of life would look like. And yet, I have to remind myself of all, you know, there are trade-offs, for sure. But this is actually the healthiest that I have ever been. I mean, you know, I used to joke for years about "Oh, look, it's five o'clock, I think I'll close down my computer and leave it here and come back the next day and not think about work. Hahaha" You know, as though that were a fever dream, and now that's my life. I have taken a smaller job, and a more flexible job, I'm able to show up for her in ways that really matter right now. And at this, it is and at the same time I find that I still have some old tapes playing that there are times at work where you know, my work is fun and simple most of the time. I work directly with students and I'm a sort of coach advisor, I support a great population of international students. And my job is to help them figure out what they need and how to get it and what they want and personal growth and development. So it is pretty easy. And if I get sick, or if I need to change a meeting because I've got to pick up my kid or whatever that may be, it is flexible. It is super flexible. I get to work from home two days a week, which was not even on my dance card.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:27

Amazing.

Karen Guttentag 34:27

But that's pretty amazing. And there are times when I sort of forget what it is that I'm looking for from this job and I think, "But is it fulfilling enough? And how will I grow and how will I make these, you know, these sets of contributions?" And I have to remind myself almost manually shift the gears and say, "That's not why you took this job. You took this job to meet different needs." And if you are feeling like you need a sense of fulfillment in your life, you need to look, you need to create that for yourself outside of your job. And so that's kind of the process that I'm more actively engaged in right now, even as I sometimes forget that I didn't take this job to fill all this space that my previous jobs used to fill.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:17

What advice would you give to someone who's in that situation where they're trying to figure out what does the next stage of life looks like?

Karen Guttentag 35:25

I think it's being willing to really radically reexamine the role that you want work to play in your life, what your needs are way beyond what your work needs. You know, and really recognize how many of your life needs have you assumed were going to be met through your work. Maybe because they have been, or maybe because you always wanted them to be, and not make premature assumptions that they have to be met in your work position. And I think also just really debunking this idea that for everyone at every stage of your life, in every circumstance, that perfect job is out there that could meet all of your personal and professional and emotional and political and financial needs. And it doesn't mean that all of those needs might not be met, but they might not all be met through your job, and not feel like you're compromising. If you take a position that is allowing you to meet the needs that are your top priorities, and recognizing that there are trade-offs. And that you want to be thoughtful about your trade-offs, and make sure that your trade-offs that you are making the decisions and compromises that are going to allow you to meet your priorities. And that sometimes that's not every single dimension of your life happening all at once at this particular moment.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:03

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put conversation in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with conversation in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:55

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 38:00

I had to think through the worst-case scenario and realize that worst case, I would be okay. I would leave the company. I would go figure out something else to do and it'd be fine.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:12

Big decisions. You know how these work. Our brains usually fight us and they want us to stay in our comfort zones. Plus, if you're like me, you can turn nearly anything into logic. Yes, I know I'm not loving work and my boss is a little way overbearing, but there could be another opportunity four months from now. Many people find themselves torn when it comes to choices like staying in the same place versus making a career change. They know, you might even know, and feel deep down inside that something's not right. But we still struggle with taking a chance to actually make a change. Why on earth do we fight what we know to be true in our core? That's the question we're going to dig into today. We see how others reach their goals and we think we must follow in their footsteps to reach the same success. But the truth is, we don't have to follow them. If you want to take more control of your life, this episode is absolutely for you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:11

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep and you get it automatically. Even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week, adios. I'm out.

Eric 00:01

Career change isn't just about a title or about tasks. It's really understanding you and yourself and what you want and what you are enjoying, and what you want to be part of.

Introduction 00:19

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:44

You might not know this about the HTYC podcast. But before I hit the record button with our clients to share their story of how they changed their career, I almost always share the same thing. I tell them, I don't want to misrepresent what career change is. It can be wonderful. Also, sometimes when we get a snapshot in time in the form of a 35-minute-long podcast episode, you don't always get the full picture. So I ask our clients to share, not just the great parts of their career change, but also what was hardest about it, what were their challenges, and what was different than what they thought.

Eric 01:19

The challenge is that when things are bad, you don't expand that further into organizations that don't quite fit that but sound like it could be okay. Or maybe that's a role, like, you start to creep a little bit outside of it because things are going tough, and it's hard. But if you can maintain that uber-focus, you'll get to the place that you want to be.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:43

Things are great for Eric now with his new role at Tonal, but his career change was far more challenging than what he thought it would be. Eric had been working in management consulting for years and loved, well, parts of it. Sales, as it turns out, was not one of those parts. Eventually, he realized that if he was continuing down the same path, sales was going to become a larger part of his life, not a smaller part. And well, that's great for some people. It wasn't what Eric wanted. He finally realized that he had to make a change. During this career change process, Eric began to identify what he really wanted in his life and his career. After helping thousands of people with their career changes, we've seen that when you're making this kind of change, it often takes more than three months, sometimes even more than six months. For Eric, it took an entire year to find the right role. Along the way, he had to learn how to ask the hard questions and say no to many good, but not great opportunities.

Eric 02:43

My background was mostly in management consulting, and I really sort of found my way into that. And after my various degrees, just because I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do, I enjoyed the aspect of being able to work on challenging problems and being able to do them with a variety of clients in a variety of industries. And so the consulting industry allowed me to do that. And I always thought it would be a way to figure out what I wanted to do. Looking back, it turned into just me staying in that, and just doing that. Until I got to the point where I realized it wasn't sustainable. It wasn't sustainable because the only way in that industry to grow, in terms of level in stature, was through sale. And that's just not what I am natural at from a professional sales, I would say. I am the type of person where I can talk to people about products and things of that, and I might sell it. But I can't walk into an office and sell a multibillion-dollar ERP project. It just doesn't sound natural from me. And that was really what was holding me back. It was holding me back subvertly. And then at one point, it held me back overtly. And it realized that that just wasn't a sustainable long-term career growth for me. And so I wanted to find something that allowed me to take what I liked about it but put me in a position to feel successful, completely successful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:05

When you had that realization that sales was probably the path that you would need to take to stay where you were at, but that didn't really align with what you wanted, was that how you knew it was time to leave that area or leave consulting? Or was there something else that occurred along the way that caused you to realize, "Hey, it's time to leave."?

Eric 04:29

I think there were some other things as well. I think there was, you know, moving around to different companies to try to find a place that felt more natural and more at home. Once I realized that I was continually moving, I started to think, "Was it because the companies that I were at and I wanted to move? Or was there something bigger going on here that I needed to reflect on some more?" And then also as I started to do more work in my later parts of consulting career, the types of work that I was doing, and the types of problems we were asked to solve, and the relationship we had with the clients started to change some that it wasn't the same as it was earlier, it seemed to be less valued and more commoditized. And it's not that I didn't want to feel like I was a commodity, but it started to feel like it was more commoditized. And it was just something to do and check off versus taking in some of that information and expertise and bringing it into the organization. And that didn't leave me feeling very good as well. And so I think those other things were going on. But I realized that if there was a path forward where I could get into leadership, and maybe start to change some of those relationships that have made it work, but then that's when I realized it's sales that are going to do that. And that's just, I was never going to make it there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:53

When you were recognizing that you had that experience where it was, you called it, felt more commoditized. Do you remember any instance in particular where you had that realization? Or led that to that realization? Or what was the first time that you really felt that in the back of your mind? Take me there, if you remember any of those moments.

Eric 06:14

I think... Someone projects were either through leadership or through the client themselves where they were just looking for things to be done. So it was just send me a checklist, or just give me a timeline, or just put together a list of tasks. And it was less about understanding why they wanted to do that or understanding what the impacts would be or getting some more into information. It was more about, just give me those answers and don't worry about anything else. And that's when it became that thing that you can almost Google, you can almost figure out how to do that yourself, you don't need me to tell you what a timeline looks like, or a task looks like for me to help you understand why you're doing it, and what are the consequences of doing it, and are these things that you should be doing. Or are you asking the right questions? Are you thinking about this the right way before you get into the action part of it? And so those types of things started to happen when then I was just asked to not think that way and not ask those questions and not do those things, just give what was asked of you. And that doesn't always work well for me. I'm not a person that you just kind of say, "Don't think. Just do." Because I'm always thinking. And so it's hard for me to turn that part off.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:25

That's what I've always found fascinating. That situation that you experienced right there, where you are doing the things that come much more naturally to you. And quite frankly, as I've gotten to know you a little bit, I think you really enjoy that. When you say problem-solving earlier, I think that rolls up for you into one of the ways that you solve problems where you're asking questions, and you're thinking about it, and then using that information to be able to help someone and add value in that particular way. Like I see you doing that actively. And I don't think people could pay you enough to really stop doing that. Like, you'd have to really suppress it. And I think that's such a sign, like, when you get to that point, and you realize that to be able to be successful in this environment, this situation, this role, this organization, whatever it is that you're having to suppress a part of yourself, like, then it was definitely time to move on. So how long do you think it took you once you started recognizing that there was parts and pieces that you're like, "Yep, that's just not me. You're not gonna be able to ask me to do this." What took place from there? How long did it take?

Eric 08:26

Well, it took a long time. And looking back, an uncomfortably long time because I tried to find other ways to solve it besides attacking the problem, right? So for me, it was about, well, maybe this other company would do it better. And then no, it didn't. Well, that's twice, well, maybe a third time, maybe there's other companies going to do it better. And you get into that where it's easier to find, try to find something analogous to what you're doing. And maybe hope the environment in which you do it in will help solve some of the things for it, as opposed to taking a hard look and realizing that it's not necessarily just the environment, it's the actual types of tasks that you're being asked to doing, which aren't changing that much, depending on the company. And that took a long time for me to realize because that I think is the scariest part of it. Right? You get to a point where I was, I mean, I suppose isn't just post-college and this was postgraduate degree to, like, you start on this path and you start to you wake up one day, and you look around and you're like, you know, it's scary to say, well, maybe I made a wrong turn. Maybe I made the wrong... and I continued and I doubled down on that path and I'm way far away from where I should be. That doesn't make it right to ignore that and it doesn't mean it's wrong to be scared of it. The challenge is to then realize, "Do you want to do something about it or not?" And I think I was lucky enough to have an out– a way in which that I could be scared of that but still find a way to softly make the correction instead of making a hard turn or an exit. And I was able to do that. And that, I found myself also wanting to give back in a way and using that, that you talked about, like really thinking about things and helping solve challenges. I wanted to solve some of the challenges. And this is gonna sound very high in the sky, but I wanted to solve some of the challenges I felt society was facing. And we were going down a path. And I wanted to find a way to give back and I didn't want to just write a check, or build a house, or pack a lunch, and those things are all critical and vital. People need food, and people need shelter. And there's great organizations that do that. But that wasn't what I wanted to do and what I meant. And I found a fellowship which were looking for people like me who wanted to serve a year in city government and work on strategic challenges that government is facing around racial and social equity, providing innovation, and providing thought and providing counsel. So for me, it was a way of saying I can do some of the good things that I liked about consulting and marry it to making an impact, and then find a way to use that time to realize what is it that I wanted to do and be. So it was more of a softer turn than just saying, "I'm done with consulting. What am I going to do?" I was able to morph into this pseudo consulting type role and use that time to just say, "What is it that I want to be now?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:21

I think that is fantastic for so many different reasons. You've heard me talk about designing experiments. And I think that for you, this was such a great opportunity to be able to really conduct an experiment that was completely outside of your, what I would call normal, you know, some of those past organizations. It really sounds like we're changing the names and the faces, but the same type of situation overall in many, many variables. So I think there's a really fantastic way for you to be able to get outside that environment, shake it up, and be able to do so in a way that mattered to you well, being able to pay attention at the same time. So kudos to you for experimenting in that way. That's a courageous decision in the first place. What caused you to feel like that was the right decision for you at the time?

Eric 12:12

Well, at that time, I had been let go by the consulting firm that I was with. And I was really trying to figure out what I wanted to do next. And it was very easy looking back, you know, would have been very easy for me to say, "Okay, what other consulting firms are looking for people? Consulting firms are always looking for people." And so always do that, right? I can go back and say, "Okay, well, you know, XYZ firm you do consulting, this is what I do. Is there a way that we can work together? Or are you looking to grow this party practice?" But something inside me just realized that that wouldn't have been as exciting for me. And it just happened to be a chance encounter that I got a LinkedIn message from this nonprofit that wanted to at least see if I was interested in talking about this opportunity about helping and that had been going through my head anyway. So it just was a good opportunity for me to do things, as I said, software, right? It wasn't completely being unemployed and figuring out what I wanted to do. It was giving help in a structured way that was set for a year, it had set goals, there was a small stipend, so at least I felt like I was still "employed". But I was going to then use that time as doing two things– as helping society in the way that I wanted to, and then taking a moment for me and saying, "Who am I and what do I want to be?" I didn't pretend to think that government is where I wanted to work. I was open to it but it wasn't the reason to take it. It was more of, it would give me the opportunity to use the skills that I had in a new way and find the time to figure out who I want to be so that when I then look for what's next for me, I'm doing it from a place of, I'm not just looking for the next consulting job because that's easy, I'm looking for the next career move for me so that I could have a more structured career longevity in the career that I'm putting myself on the right path. It was almost like a moment in time where I could say, "I'm stopping on this road. I don't know what road I'm going to be on next. But I know it's going to be another road. And let me look at all the maps that I can find and figure out what road do I want to be on next, and put myself onto that road."

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:23

I vaguely remember the first conversation you and I had. I told you I've loved some of the analogies that you're coming up with. And you know, I think this is a great one because, honestly, this is the equivalent to instead of just like keeping on driving anywhere and just like feeling like you're making momentum, but really you're not, this is the harder thing to do in so many different ways, like, pulling over to the side of the road and saying, "Okay, hold on. Let's pull up the map. Where do we actually want to get to here? Okay, what's the best way to get here?" And it's a courageous decision, quite frankly, I don't think that that's always acknowledged versus just keep on the same path. Keep driving. So, really nice job. I'm also curious about, looking back on that experience after you went through the fellowship, what do you feel, like, were some of your biggest takeaways about what you wanted in your next step and beyond?

Eric 15:13

I think it reinforced that there were aspects of working on strategic initiatives and challenges that are done outside of being a consultant that there are ways to do that and there are opportunities to do that. And those are the tests that still got me excited and still had me want to go to work every day and want to do those types of tasks. I still was able to understand more about how I am as a person in terms of building relationships, right? Like, you think you're good at that. And in consulting, you're artificially put in that way where you're building relationships because you're working at the same client, and you're doing something together. And I always thought I was very good at that. This allowed me to come into an industry like government and do the same thing, but not from the same starting point. And I was able to reinforce that that is something that I'm very good at. And being with people and working with people and bringing people along on the journey, and pulling insights and thoughts from people are all things that I do get excited about and want to do. So it reinforced a lot of what I thought about myself, but it also gave me the opportunity to spend time, as I mentioned, like really thinking about what does that mean, you know, what are the other things? What don't I know about myself that I could use this time to find? And then, who can help me and just spend the time to do that sort of stuff?

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:36

So let's fast forward for just a second here. You ended up with Tonal which I believe is a pretty amazing organization. I think they're doing a nice job with, not just one thing, but a lot of different things. And that said, how do you tell people about what you do now? What's your position called and just give me a couple of tidbits about what you're doing, what you're spending your time on now at the moment.

Eric 16:57

Sure. So I'm currently a senior software and content program manager. And so what I do is for large strategic initiatives that the company is looking to investigate prototype build out for the offering, I lead the cross-functional work. So thinking about bringing teams together to solve whatever is the problem that we're asked to do. So usually, it's all stuff that isn't released yet. So we're working on new sort of ideas, we're kind of building them out. And my expertise would be ones that involve some sort of content creation for it with software support. So I don't really work on the hardware side, I'm not about building anything on the hardware side, it's all about the associated content and software.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:46

You know, I think is super fun about that is that we started this conversation by you saying, "Hey, I really learned through all my consulting experiences that I absolutely love, the working together in teams, and that type of collaboration, and that type of cross-functional collaboration", like, that's really fun for you. And then thinking about how the strategy of how the different things fit together. And now fast forward to the end, you get to do a whole bunch of that in your new role. And that is really wonderful. I think that's reinforcement that you made a wonderful step for yourself. Also, at the same time, you and I had a conversation before we hit the record button here that it was not always easy along the way, there was a pretty substantial amount of time for you. Was it about 12 months in between the fellowship? And then where you accepted this opportunity?

Eric 18:35

Yeah, my fellowship ended and then it took me a full calendar year to then accept an opportunity to join Tonal.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:42

So what was that like? First of all, I asked you, you know, "What did you plan on? Or did you plan for it to be that long?" You're like "No, not at all. My intent was to get a role that was right for me as soon as possible." But in doing so, what was that like for you? What were the hard parts? And what caused you to continue to keep moving forward?

Eric 19:05

I think there's a few things that I think and looking back on is that, one, you can only control what you can control. And there are far more things that you can't control than you realize. You can think about there are certain things that you can't control, but there are significantly more. And of the things that you either can control or not, the ones that you can control are going to give you the most heartache, the most consternation throughout it. And it's so much easier for me to say now, looking back, and reflecting on it than it was during that time because, at that time, every setback was felt catastrophic. It just did. And it's just because of the state you're in when you're going through this process and I don't minimize it in any way. It is very difficult. And I think what kept me going is the fact that through the fellowship, at least, and looking back the times in consulting, but especially through the fellowship, I realize I could do good things, not anything and I don't mean to toot my horn or anything like this, but I just realized that I am capable of doing good thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:11

To do ways.

Eric 20:15

So my real realization is that I have to keep going because whatever it is that I get to do next, it's going to be doing something good. And I should be in control of where I do that. And it may take a long time, but it's going to be worth it at the end. Because at the end of the day, if I follow the path, and I stay true to what I want to do and who I want to be, then I am going to do good things for a good company and feel good about myself. I'm just not going to feel good about myself during the process. And that's just the way it is. And I think there's things that you can do to help it get better, right? But from time to time, having that big picture of pulling yourself up from the weeds, and realizing that you're going to get somewhere, you just will, it's going to take a various amount of time, it's either gonna be quick or short, or long, you don't know, but you're gonna get somewhere and at the end of the day, you're going to be where you want to be. And that's a very powerful place to be. So taking time, looking up, and saying, "Okay, I'm gonna get there. I just don't know when that time is." Gives you a little perspective of just slowing down and it's going to be okay, and then you dive back in. I would... and you didn't ask this specifically. But some of the things that I would do besides taking that big holistic picture is I would spend time actually actively not looking for my next opportunity. Doing something else– it could be daily, or it could be weekly, but doing something else. Whether it's, you know, we talked about before, like, I play ice hockey, so whether it was playing ice hockey, or whether it was working out, or whether it was just going to get a coffee physically out of the house, going for a walk, a skateboard, or something, just doing something else to clear your brain. But making sure that you do that, it does do wonders, it does change your mood, it does give you something else to do and focus on. Because if you continue to focus on what is negatively happening, it reinforces it, and it puts you in a downward spiral. And I do say that you don't always control the downward spiral. There's lots of things that help you get there. But you can control when you get out of it by changing your mental state a little bit by just doing something else. And it can be something simple. It doesn't have to be something complex, which is doing something else. And it'll break up the days, it'll break up the weeks, it'll break up the months, and it will make you feel a lot happier in certain moments and celebrate those moments.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:46

That is fantastic. And I appreciate you sharing what worked for you as well. Because it's one thing to go through that and say, "Well, you just need to hang with it. And eventually, you're going to get there." But it's another thing for how do you actually do that and what might work for someone. So I really appreciate you sharing what worked for you. And also when you think back over the last, now it's been about 15 months or so, but when you think back over that 12 month period, what do you feel, like, was much more difficult than you would have anticipated?

Eric 23:18

I think the biggest challenge really was the networking piece. It wasn't really the conversations, it was getting the traction, it was getting the conversations. I think... And this goes back to, what you can control and what you can't control. You can control what industries you want to pursue, what companies you want to pursue, what people you want to target. What you can't control is their reaction, and their willingness, and their ability to meet you where you want to be. And I mean that in a simple way of, you want to have a conversation just to explore what they do or explore the companies for the industry. You can't control how receptive they are to it. And that's the challenging part. And I had a lot of moments where I would use a lot of the learnings that I got from you and about how best to reach out, and how best to structure your reach out, and plan your meetings, blah, blah, blah. And I would make headway in terms of getting connections and people that would want to meet. And then all of a sudden, things probably decided they didn't want to do that anymore and never heard back or never heard from them, or had a meeting and then didn't show up and then never heard back right? That's so frustrating. And that puts you into some of that downward spiral from before, right? And that goes back to you can't control that because you've done everything right. And it's hard. That was the hardest part is then you... It's not meant to be personal. It's not that someone is saying, "I don't want to talk to you at all", but it feels that way because you're the only one that asked and you're the one that set up meetings, so it feels that that's what they're doing. But, you know, people have different motivations, and people use tools for different things. And so if you find yourself in a way that you're getting people to say yes to connecting you on LinkedIn, and then never hearing from them again, or saying responding to one message in a positive way, and then never hearing from them again, it's hard. But it's one of the things that happens and understanding that people's motivations are different. And you can only control asking. And then you can control the environment in which you have the conversation. But there's very little else that you can control about that. And finding a way to have comfort in that. The positive was that person did say yes, at one point in time, that's a positive thing, celebrate that, and realize that if that gets replicated that next person, maybe then will follow through and have the conversation with you. So trying to look back and find the positives, and what happened in a very negative situation is helpful. But that was the most challenging part of the whole thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:54

I can definitely see. And I have felt where that challenge can happen. And you said something that is really very interesting there that I think changes the game for people. I think so many people when they think about making a career change as an example, I think people equate that with, I needed to make a company change, or environment change, or industry change, or something like that. However, I think it's far more than that. In some ways, it's also behavioral changes along the way, and you've referenced some of those. But then the other thing that often people don't think about is how do you actually produce a desirable situation that is a really positive outcome on the other end. And what I heard you say earlier, is that you're focused on those people or organizations or industries or companies or whatever that you actually are interested in, or that you do want to spend your time around. And if you're putting your efforts in a teeny, tiny, you know, a smaller portion of those places that you actually want to be, eventually, as long as you are continuing to move down that path, and this is what I saw you do really, really well, you continue to find ways to keep moving down the path, looking at that larger purpose of, "Hey, I know that I can do good work someplace. And I know that when I get there, I'm going to be able to contribute in a different way." And it almost sounded like you felt obligated to continue on down that path. But focusing on that element, and then focusing on identifying and only going after those places that you actually are legitimately interested in, that's kind of the not-so-secret sauce to how you end up in a place that you actually want to be. So I just wanted to unpack that for a few seconds here because it's easy to listen to a story like yours, Eric, where you've had a really positive outcome on the other end, and sometimes gets lost about how that actually got there. And in this case, I know you did a great job continuing to show up and continuing to focus on those places you want to be. So what I'm also curious about is Tonal. What caused you to believe "Yeah, this is absolutely an organization that is right for me."?

Eric 27:59

Yeah. Specifically about Tonal, I knew coming out of my fellowship that we talked about, it reinforced the types of tasks and things that I liked to do. But what it also instilled in me is that I also knew that I wanted to make an impact on people's lives and find a way to do that. And there's many ways to make an impact on people's lives. And I wanted to find an organization that I felt in which the work that I did would impact people. And for me, Tonal does that and I don't mean it in a physical way of just changing people's physiques or changing their, whether they're losing weight or getting stronger, muscles, or things of that nature. It certainly does that. But what it does for me, is it reimagines and reinvents and reinforces their relationship with health and fitness that is also impacts more parts of their lives. So it was an organization that I knew that I wanted to be part of. And there were other organizations too that do things similarly, but in other industries, but I knew specifically that I wanted to target companies that would allow me to do the work that I like, and good at and impact people. And so it was one of those things that I knew that I needed to narrow what that was and be uber-focused on what that was so that I could facilitate the right conversations and do the right research. And one of the things that you said earlier about related to what I'm just saying is that, that's incredibly hard to do, and I don't mean was hard for me, it's a hard thing for people to do. It takes a lot of the work that you alluded to, which isn't just career change, isn't just about a title or about tasks. It's really understanding you and yourself and what you want and what you enjoy and what you want to be part of. And when you do that, and you find the industries and the companies, you can continue to focus like you said, and you'll get to a good spot. The challenge is that when things are bad, you don't expand that further into organizations that don't quite fit that, but sounds like it could be okay. Or maybe that's a role, like, you start to creep a little bit outside of it because things are going tough, and it's hard. But if you can maintain that uber-focus, you'll get to the place that you want to be. But I do recognize and again, don't want to minimize, it's hard to do that when things are not going well.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:29

Yeah, especially, I mean, 12 months in when... I don't know how you experienced specifically long periods of time in between where you're focused on something, but the result hasn't come through yet. But I know for me, it very much felt like, should I consider accepting something else? Like, am I really doing the right thing here? Like, am I doing the right thing for my family? Like, all it causes me to question my intense over and over again. And I'll ask you directly, what was that like for you? What were those hard elements that people might not be thinking about from the emotional side?

Eric 31:04

It does. It certainly makes you question, did you define things the correct way because it feels so narrow. And that's when relying on the work that you did is you have to trust that because you did it from an honest place, and it truly reflects who you are and what you want if you put in the work upfront to do that. It's having faith in that and having faith in yourself. Again, it's not easy, you know, it's not easy to do. But if you put in the work at the beginning to do that, then you're only cheating yourself if you ignore that later on when it's hard. It's easy to do that, it's easy to ignore it. And it's easy to open up and say, "Well, this role sounds sort of..." Maybe it's, you know, and maybe I'll be able to fix it, maybe I'll be able to fix the role once I'm there, maybe I'll be able to fix the company once I'm there. It's easy to talk yourself into those types of things, especially if they're the ones that you get conversations with, and they're the ones that you start talking to. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing to do because you did something earlier for a reason. So I don't really have a magic bullet to say how you break out of it. I think changing your perspective from time to time, not in terms of the details, not in terms of whether your answers are correct, but your perspective of take a break for yourself, read a book, go for a walk, go talk to someone you haven't talked to in a long time, just find some other way to change your mindset. When you then go back to it, you'll feel a stronger connection to the work that you did earlier because your minds a little clearer, and you'll realize, "Yes, that's exactly what I was talking about. It is exactly what I'm looking for. And then I'll give you a little bit more of adrenaline rush to keep going.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:45

You did a really nice job, even staying true to yourself, at the very, very end when it got to you had an offer, you were in the negotiation process. It's feeling like you need to accept the offer and not sure how much give there is and everything else along those lines. And you did a really nice job of coming out on the other side with even more than what some of the minimums were that you had defined for yourself, not just accepting the "minimums". I will tell you from working with literally thousands of people on that, that it's a hard thing to do much like some of the other pieces that we've talked about here. And since you did such a great job through that process, what did you learn? And what would you share with everyone else about what you learned as you're going into a negotiation to be able to stay true to yourself and what you actually want?

Eric 33:30

I think a couple of things and thank you for those. I appreciate the kind words. I think a couple of things. The first thing is having support and having support from people, right, to bounce ideas off, to get information that I didn't know, to ask the question of, "Am I crazy here? Or should I ask this? Or is this out of bounds? Or is this how do you think? How do you think this is going to be responded to? Or what about this type of word? And how would you react to that." So having that support there is important/. And then going back to the understanding of you, understanding what is important to you. If a certain title or dollar amount or total package is critical to you then knowing that's what you need to find. I think in my particular case, I had a sense of what I felt my worth was. I don't have any true empirical evidence of my particular worth to the world, but I had a sense of what I think it would be. And so I knew that it would be something that was worth asking for knowing that if it got to a certain point that was a little lower or whatever it was, like, where my line in the stand was, where I would say, "I could love the company and I can love the opportunity but this particular package salary bonus or whatever it is, is not going to make me feel valued and put me in a negative spot", then unfortunately, that's just not a good position to put myself in instead myself up for failure. So I kind of had an idea of where my lowest spine would be. And just knowing that I would make these decisions if I had to as long as you have the support, and you know what's important to you, I think that the negotiation part isn't just asking questions and not being afraid to, there's no harm in asking and realize there's also no harm in being told no.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:27

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put ‘Conversation’ in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with ‘Conversation’ in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:20

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 36:25

I bought into the model of career ascension, you know. You go from better to better to better, and that's the direction things are supposed to go. And it's always heading up and it's always heading bigger and more responsibility, better title, more money.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:44

Why is our culture so obsessed with job titles and job status? Just think about how often we ask and are asked by others, "So what do you do?" This inflated importance of career causes people to believe they have to find all of their fulfillment and everything they could possibly need within the constraints of their career, which can very easily lead to work consuming your entire life. And when, not if, when that all-consuming job begins conflicting with your priorities, like, health, family, whatever it may be, something will have to give. So then the question becomes, what is the life that you want to build? And where does work fit into that?

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:29

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep and you get it automatically. Even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week, adios. I'm out.

Caroline 00:01

There was a part of me that definitely recognized that I had strengths, and I had value to offer an organization. But I didn't know how to navigate the next steps, or work out how I could communicate what my skill sets and values were.

Introduction 00:27

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:52

Let's say that you took a break from your career. Many people do. I've personally done it. Whether it was for your children, your health, travel, whatever. When it comes time to return to the workforce, it's common to not want to go back to the same work that you were doing before your break. However, if you've only worked in one industry, or done one type of role, or worked for one organization, it can feel, well, a little challenging. It can be really hard to figure out how to translate the experiences you've had to a new industry or new role or new opportunity. So the question becomes how do you do that? How do you translate all these experiences in a way that becomes useful to other people?

Caroline 01:36

There was this fear about what I could do outside of EY. And how I could translate what I did inside EY to another company. Given that my role and responsibilities couldn't really be packaged up neatly into a box.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:00

That's Caroline. When she contacted us, she'd experienced a huge upheaval in her life. She'd hit burnout at a job she'd been at for 17 years, resigned, moved countries, bought a fixer-upper, and decided to stay at home with her children for two years. She took that time at home to really establish what was important to her. And when we later got to help her she knew she was ready to return to the workforce. But she wanted this chapter of her career to be a better experience. And she was feeling extremely lost, very lost on how to do that. She climbed the corporate ladder at her previous company, she'd done really well for herself. But she'd been so focused on growing in that company specifically than now. She was having trouble translating all these skills, all these strengths, all these experiences, all of these things to what was going to be useful for other organizations. You're going to hear in my conversation with Caroline how she did an amazing job figuring out what she wanted, and what she needed out of her career. And she learned to communicate that in her job search. She was so sure about what she wanted and needed that when her new role first came along, she actually turned it down because that offer wasn't ideal. Guess what? Spoiler alert, the company ended up modifying the role to fit her. So let's jump into the conversation. Here's Caroline talking about her first role in account management.

Caroline 03:25

My career began working for Datamonitor PLC as an account manager within their professional services function. And my role there was to basically manage and sort of cross-sell a portfolio of research and consulting services to those clients. One of those clients was Ernst and Young. And my client at Ernst and Young suggested that I apply for a role as an account manager at EY. So that's where it all began. And so I interviewed for a role at Ernst and Young back in 2004 and joined as an account manager in their consumer products division in London.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:14

Circa 2004. So I'm curious when you took those couple opportunities, was that always the plan to end up with those types of organizations initially?

Caroline 04:30

So when I was at university, I always expected and thought that I would become either a management consultant or an IT consultant.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:40

Really?

Caroline 04:42

I did a degree in... a combined degree in, it's called information management. So becoming a hybrid manager, one that can understand the IT and understand the business and therefore be able to communicate and hopefully get to a solution that is more aligned with what the business needs. So my degree was focused on Computer Science Information Studies and Management. And I don't know, just from what I saw externally, what I'd heard, I thought that might be an interesting thing to try. When I graduated, it was 2000. So dotcom crashed, and all of the big companies suspended their graduate hiring. So I thought I would take some time, I would just take a role, and then apply the following year. And that role sort of what I didn't really... I enjoyed the work that I was doing but I felt that it wasn't, I kind of let myself down by not necessarily pursuing the dream. But at the same time, once I was working, and living life, there was very little time to focus on graduate applications. And so I think when the opportunity came up to join EY, I thought it was my way of sort of crossing over to that kind of big corporate organization and working my way up the ladder to the corner office with the amazing views.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:22

I can understand that. I can appreciate that. So here's my question for you, as you made that transition into that new company, new role, what happened next?

Caroline 06:34

I really enjoyed my first role at EY. I was working on some really, really big new clients. I was working with a great team that was progressive, fun to work with. And also, we were kind of leading the way in best practices that we were sharing across other accountings. I did the role in two years. And at that point, I was beginning to think what's next. So at that time, it wasn't possible to move from being an account manager to a business development director. And I knew that I wanted more responsibility, promotion, and the ability to earn more money. So at this point, I started exploring a couple of different options. One was moving into consulting and becoming a chargeable consultant. And I spoke to who was the global business development operations director at the time. And she mentioned that there was a big investment in China firm and that they were looking for somebody to go out and basically recruit, train, and manage a group of account coordinators in China. And that they had interviewed a few people and they hadn't found anyone suitable. So I put up my hand and said, "Well, could I go?" Never having recruited, trained or managed before, but at the same time, I was a good account manager. And at that point, I had the bravado and the confidence to just put my hand up, and then figure it out afterwards. And that resulted in very quickly a series of interviews and me being offered a position to move to the China firm. So based in Hong Kong, and the next, I guess, Korea chapter for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:43

You said at that point, "I had the bravado and the confidence." First of all, that's awesome. And I'm curious, at that point, there's something more behind that statement.

Caroline 08:55

I think when I first started my career, I don't know the world is your oyster. And I had a vision of what I wanted to achieve. I had no idea how to achieve it. But I also had no view on what my strengths were, what my weaknesses were, and what the road ahead looked like. So I think it was just, "Okay, I want to get to the moon. Let's just start driving." And I think over the years, you hit more and more bumps along that road, and potentially it probably made me a little bit too cautious to the point, I think, by the time I left EY that I didn't believe there was a road ahead.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:53

Let's talk about that. What led up to the point where you became, you called it overly cautious, or what led up to the point where you decided to leave?

Caroline 10:05

I think a number of setbacks– not getting the promotion opportunities, or roles being changed and no longer qualifying for promotion opportunities. People, so by this, I mean, challenging characters, and having to navigate, you know, not just the stakeholders, but your teammates, your colleagues, and everyone's individual agendas, you know, the typical corporate system asks you to collaborate and work as a team. But at the same time, you're benchmarked against each other. And ultimately, it's a triangle. So you start off with a lot of people at the base, and there's only a few people that can move through. So regardless of people's personalities, and what they may want, it kind of forces people to compete, versus competing openly, it just sometimes becomes a series of, you know, toxic behaviors and like a minefield that you have to navigate through.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:27

Why is that for you?

Caroline 11:29

I think I'm an individual that leads from the heart goes with kindness like simplicity is open and honest. And, you know, what I enjoy is just coming together with a group of people and getting a really good result. And all the mess in the middle, I think I now realize that it's unnecessary. And it kind of impacts everyone that's involved in those situations. So actually, if we all just took a step back and challenged ourselves and our behaviors into like, "Okay, what is the best way for us all to move forwards?" It would be so much easier. But as I said, the system in most organizations doesn't support that behavior. So for me, it was a series of setbacks around promotion, it was working with individuals that I found personally quite toxic. And I think my... Although I'd had a phenomenal career and opportunity after opportunity, I hit the hurdle that happens to a lot of people, you sort of end up in a role that isn't set up to succeed for various reasons. And so I think I had, you know, I'd been riding the wave, and I'd been lucky. And, at times, I had probably made the choice to compromise on what I wanted in my career as I started to have a family because balance became most important thing. And then when I accepted the final role, I found myself in a situation that I couldn't deliver results in. And so that kind of impacted me in two ways. I was someone that had always delivered results, and all of a sudden, I couldn't. And as much as I had senior partner sponsorship and understanding, and was being asked to just hold, they knew that the role wasn't working, and it would be looked at, at the same time, there was middle management constantly pushing for results, asking me what I was going to deliver, and when. And that ultimately, combined with working global hours, which sometimes started at 6am, with calls at 6am in the morning, calls finishing at midnight, just ultimately led to burnout. And also took out my self-confidence because I then started internalizing that it was me that was failing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:39

What did that feel like at that point in time? So obviously, this is even now thinking back about this, this is hard for you. And I recognize that. And I'm curious at that point in time, what did that feel like for you?

Caroline 14:57

Ultimately, at the end, I woke up one day and I thought, "I can't do this anymore. I don't want to do this anymore." But at the same time, I have a family, I have financial responsibilities. And I just knew I had a big choice to make. And I actually saw... I decided to speak to someone. And I had a couple of sessions with a therapist to finally accept that I wanted to resign and that I could resign.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:41

I think one of the things that we don't talk about enough on this show, or any place in the world, is the idea that it is okay to leave in one way, or if it's not serving you, it's okay to leave. So I'm curious for you, looking back, what do you think made it so difficult? And then what helped to allow you to decide, "Yeah, this is actually what I want."?

Caroline 16:10

The piece that made it difficult was the financial responsibility. We were a two-income household. And Hong Kong is and has been the number one most expensive city for many years. And I felt this sense of responsibility and guilt. I felt selfish. Because the choices that I might make will impact my broader family. So leaving the company wasn't hard, it was the impact of that choice that was difficult. I also recognized that underlying that there was this fear about what I could do outside of the EY, and how I could translate what I did inside EY to another company. Given that my role and responsibilities couldn't really be packaged up neatly into a box that fits automatically into kind of a different company, like I wasn't doing a finance role, or I wasn't a qualified project manager, I was an IT consultant. What I had sort of built was sort of 18 years of experience, simplifying complexity, and taking problems and opportunities, developing strategies, and getting buy-in, and executing to deliver results. And so I was really struggling to see how I could go out into the market and say, "I do stuff. Just trust the magic, and I will deliver results." Because essentially, that is how I felt that's what I did. And you know, that is not how you communicate in the professional world.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:26

Turns out, just showing up and be like, "Oh, yeah, I totally do stuff" is not that helpful to other people. Even though, like, you get stuff done, like, nobody's business, I don't think anybody can argue with that. But it's more difficult to your point to communicate that and translate it into a way that becomes useful to other people. So let's talk about that for a little bit, then. I think that's an important part of your transition. I think that's also a problem that many people face, like, "Hey, how do I... I have been in this industry. I've been in this combination of roles. I've been in this situation, whatever it is, how do I translate that into something that becomes useful for other organizations?" How did you work through that? What worked for you?

Caroline 19:12

So if I stepped back, I hit burnout. I had low self-confidence. I resigned from a company that I had worked with for 17 years. I moved countries. Additionally, I had always been a city dweller. And I made the decision to move to the countryside, buy a house that needed huge renovation. And at the same time at the back of my mind, I knew that I wanted to and I needed to go back to work. And I didn't know how to do that. There was a part of me that definitely recognized that I had strengths, I had value to offer an organization. But I didn't know how to navigate the next steps, work out how I could communicate what my skill sets and values were, or find a role that would fit my new life in the UK. It's really scary to leave a role and not know what's next. And on top of that, the career change process feels incredibly intimidating when you've got so many sources of information coming at you, in terms of how you should present yourself, how you should format your CV, how you should interview, and it's a lot, and it feels like a lot of work. And you're not quite sure what will actually help. So it's not that you're afraid of the hard work, but you're like, which piece of advice do I listen to and what do I do? And at the same time, it's quite a lonely journey because you can have really, really supportive family, friends, and colleagues, but there's only one person that can do the work. And that's you. So for me, there was a lot of fear of the unknown, fear of not knowing how to navigate. And as I mentioned, I felt that you needed to own every single process. And having a coach was such a game-changer. Because you've got somebody that kind of points you in the right direction, helps you along the journey, helps you overcome your blockages, and gives you accountability. But also, if you find the right person, you've also got an ally and a friend and a safe space to have a conversation. And so this is the point where I recognized that I needed some help. And I reached out to Happen To Your Career team and sort of started on the bootcamp and coaching journey.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:35

As you went on that journey, what do you feel like was the most difficult part for you between now and that point where you decided, "Hey, I definitely want to go back to work."?

Caroline 22:51

Self-confidence. How I communicate my values.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:57

You talked about, "how I communicate my value." And at that same time, you were feeling low confidence, which doesn't take a rocket scientist to add those two together and say, "I'm trying to communicate my value, but I'm feeling self-confidence." And we already know that you wear your heart on your sleeve in many different ways. So that combination of things makes it especially challenging. What did you find worked for you? Or what did you do specifically to communicate your value or get better at communicating your value?

Caroline 23:30

The Gallup StrengthsFinder assessment was probably the most important tool for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:38

Really? In what way?

Caroline 23:40

So taking the output from the Gallup StrengthsFinder assessment helped me do two things. One, understand why my previous role and environment were not the right place for me. The two gave me platforms language that I could use to communicate my strengths to the market.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:08

What's an example of that now? Like, how would you describe one of your strengths or one of the things that are your talents?

Caroline 24:17

So one of my strengths was relator. So I can articulate that in, obviously, I focus on building relationships, that I'm able to connect with different stakeholders and team members, understand them and get to know them, how to work with them, bring the best out of them.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:44

How do you get to do that? Let's fast forward to this for a second, just now, and how do you get to do that now? How do you get to use that natural ability to relate and connect and how does that show up in your current situation?

Caroline 25:01

Being a relator is just helped me able to kind of navigate a new company, new stakeholders, new teammates really, really quickly, and move from meeting people from the first time to kind of productive relationships quite quickly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:23

How does your newest opportunity? When do you start?

Caroline 25:31

Mid-September.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:32

Okay, so you've been in mid-September. What feels different to you, compared to previous situations?

Caroline 25:40

It's a fresh start. I have chosen to work in a very, very different environment and culture with leaders who prioritize their people, as much as they are focused on growth. It's an entrepreneurial space with a flat hierarchy. And it is very different from what I have experienced in the past. And so there is a little bit of sort of excitement. And at the same time, there's a little bit of nervousness in terms of navigating in such a different space.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:27

Yet the learning curve of going into a new environment, even if more pieces of that environment are a fit, I think that's something a lot of people don't anticipate when they sort of get to the thing. They feel like, everything's going to be, I don't know, rainbows, butterflies, whatever else. But within every new stage, there's new pieces. And honestly, I think it'd be boring if there weren't. But I think that's what I hear you saying is that there's that learning curve in addition to the pieces that you were looking for, like, having a different style of leadership, for example.

Caroline 27:04

Yes, absolutely. And I think for me, taking a two-year career break, I had mentally prepared for going back to work by organizing the juggle. So how do I manage childcare? How do I feed my kids healthy food? You know, work with the nanny. How do I get myself to the office? And I started work, and then all of a sudden I say, "Hold on, this is really, really different. Who do I report to? I don't seem to have clear reporting lines. Right. Clear reporting lines aren't really a thing. What am I roles and responsibilities? Oh, okay, this is a new role. So I am..." it's almost like a bit of a science experiment. And we're going to build the role as we go. Or there's different stakeholders that one have completely different priorities. And all of these things I hadn't really thought about for two years. And so I wasn't prepared for them. But at the same time, all of that experience is there and it's sort of coming back quite quickly. And at the same time, I really do see this as an opportunity to grow. It's uncomfortable, though, at times.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:36

Growth, as it turns out, it's not really growth if there's not some degree of outside your comfort zone. So I can fully appreciate that. As you look at this opportunity as a whole, what were you looking for in this next role and then how much of it lines up with that? What are the pieces that line up with, "Hey, I was looking for these types of things, this type of environment, these type of abilities, my strength" this type of whatever else your ideal career profile, essentially, and what are the pieces that you now have that do in fact line up with that?

Caroline 29:17

So I was really looking for an environment that aligned with my values– leadership that was authentic, colleagues who want to collaborate to deliver results, and an environment where I was able to use my skill sets, as well as develop new ones. And then, from a practical point of view, I was looking for a company that was open to flexible working, reduced hours, and working from home as well. So, and I'll be honest, I didn't know if I could find that. It seems like one of those, I don't know, magic moments. And that's where the Happen To Your Career coaching process sort of really kicked in. And I've really understood the value of leveraging your network and just having open and honest conversations, and actually just seeing where this can take you. So what do I have? Now? I have a role in a midsize entrepreneurial company. I work three days a week, 24 hours split across four days, and one of those days I go into the office. So from a practical perspective, I have ticked all of the boxes that I needed to be able to manage my home life and my work life, and my personal preferences.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:08

Most people would say that's impossible.

Caroline 31:11

No, I know. And I think I'm still one of the... I'm still pinching myself. And I'm not quite sure how it happened. Because when I received... when I first received the offer for this role, it didn't align with my ideal career profile, and in a few different ways, and it was more around the flexibility and the money. And that morning, I had seen a quote on Instagram that said, "You must do the one thing you think you cannot do." I don't know how, but that gave me the courage to turn down the position.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:57

What did you say when you turned down the position? Do you remember?

Caroline 32:00

I thanked them for the opportunity but said that I couldn't compromise on the salary and the flexibility to that level at this point in time. I focused on the value and the experience that I was bringing, and I left it there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:28

A long before they came back and said, "We still want you here."

Caroline 32:32

Two weeks. But I will say that there was no change in the salary but what we negotiated was around the flexibility. And that was the most important thing to me. As I mentioned to you before, it's something that I knew I wanted but, you know, and I'd heard maybe on the podcast or, you know, Instagram or reading articles, you come across individuals that might have it but they're on the minority, not majority.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:05

Yes, yeah. Well, so I think what is... I don't want to undermine at all the work that you had to do because it's easy to listen to this, and get a snapshot and say, "Well, that's probably possible for Caroline. You know, she's the one person who got that unicorn role." But in reality, and we know that if you're understanding exactly what you want, and then you're actively looking for and trying to solve the problem of finding what you want in the real world, then that's the only way to get where you want. Because if you don't try if you either don't know what you want, or you don't try, then it is going to be impossible. However, it's strange how many times it, as you said, magically works out. It's not magic. It's a lot of work. But it's strange how often it works out when you have those two things. So nice work, by the way.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:00

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put conversation in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with ‘Conversation’ in the subject line.

Caroline 34:00

Thank you. And I think along the coaching process, I kept having to say to myself, "Trust the process. Trust the process." And for the first time, I completed most of the templates that are available via the coaching bootcamp, and I followed the structured process step-by-step with interventions from my coach. And it's funny how having clarity on what your strengths and transferable skill sets are, and being able to communicate those, followed by working out what's really important to you, puts you in a position to just have an open and honest conversation with people. And I think if I was... The biggest lesson for me is, I will always default to assume that it's not possible and that I'm asking for too much. And if there is one takeaway from this process, it's the end, a top tip that I would give to anyone. It's just let people know what you're looking for and let them decide if you're asking for too much, or it's impossible.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:30

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 36:36

Career change isn't just about a title or about tasks. It's really understanding you and yourself and what you want and what you are enjoying, and what you want to be part of.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:49

You might not know this about the HTYC podcast. But before I hit the record button with our clients to share their story of how they changed their career, I almost always share the same thing. I tell them, I don't want to misrepresent what career change is. It can be wonderful. Also, sometimes when we get a snapshot in time in the form of a 35-minute-long podcast episode, you don't always get the full picture. So I ask our clients to share, not just the great parts of their career change, but also what was hardest about it, what were their challenges, and what was different than what they thought.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:25

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep and you get it automatically. Even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week, adios. I'm out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:00

Job search today is very different than it was 20 years ago. Recruiters and hiring managers are absolutely drowning in potential candidates today. So how do you convince them to give you a chance? A chance for an interview, a job, or even just the time of day? Well, it turns out, it's actually not about convincing the hiring manager or recruiter that your absolute best perfect fit for this job. That's not it. There's not just one secret Jedi mind trick that's going to make them choose you. So what is it then? What matters most when it comes to your job search? That evasive answer is what we break down in this episode of the Happen To Your Career podcast.

Introduction 00:48

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:13

If you've ever been in an emergency situation, you know how chaotic it can feel. When you're in an emergency situation, when there is chaos, when there are other things going on, a distractions, etc., you have to be specific. People are panicking. And it turns out if you scream, "Help! Help! We need help." it doesn't actually cause anybody to come and help you many times. Instead, what you learn, and there have been many studies to show that this is absolutely the case in emergencies. What you learn, what they teach in these emergency trainings is that you need to give clear, specific instructions, "You in the pink shirt, I need you to call 911 right away." "You in the corner, bring me a towel", or you know, whatever it is that you need. You have to be extremely clear about what it is that you want, and what you need for that situation. These studies have also shown that it carries beyond emergency situations. Knowing what you want, and being extremely clear about what you want is the very best way to get what you want in most situations. It's all about getting really specific, and that allows you to be able to communicate very differently. And you may have heard me say this on the podcast in the past, but when you know what you want, it becomes easier to ask for what you want. And when you ask for what you want, strangely, you get what you want more often, right? You may have guessed it by now. But the strategy of knowing what you want, and being able to clearly communicate it is the most effective method for job searching today. It sounds so simple. And yet so few people do this. Part of the reason is that knowing what you want can seem abstract. And it's a step that many people will skip right over or think that they can do on a good enough level. But when you get really concrete about what you want, and what you need out of your career, then it allows you to get different results. You can do this by defining first what we call your must-haves. Now we dedicate a large portion of career change, at least the process behind the scenes when we're helping other people, we dedicate a large portion of that process to defining these must-haves. And we use a tool that we call the Ideal Career Profile. It's a very simple tool, think about it as a large checklist of everything that you want or the most important things about what you want and what you need, that creates and adds up to fulfilling work that becomes truly meaningful to you. Now, if we oversimplify the Ideal Career Profile for just a moment, then it's in two parts, the must-haves or the deal breakers, the things that you absolutely have to have for the seven key elements that define meaningful work, and then the ideals. The ideals are aspirationally what we're working towards. You need both of these to be really be clear about what it is that you want. Now if you want to learn more about the Ideal Career Profile, and the seven elements of meaningful work, we'll include links in the show notes and description, to past episodes where we've discussed this and also we go over this in detail in the Happen To Your Career book. However, I want to say all of that to then explain that knowing what you want is not innate. It's not. It's not just a job title. It's not one singular element, like a job where I can work from home, it's really complex. And once you figure it out, it changes everything for you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:06

Okay, so we already acknowledged that most people haven't done the work to get clear on what it is that they want, and what they need out of their career. So they don't really know what it is that they're looking for, even if they think that they do, even if they think that "Well, I'm looking for something that has more growth and a mission-driven company." Okay. All right, let's start. And then they wonder why they're not able to find that, let alone when they think that they do find that why they're not getting those opportunities in a way that's useful for them and the organization. The very common job searching scenario is going on Indeed.com or LinkedIn, and then you find an open role, and then you try to get that job to fit you, right? You look at this, and you're like, "Well, I think this could work, maybe, I guess." And then that's how we lead to long times of depression and wondering why there's no good jobs out there that are actually sound wonderful or the ones that do sound wonderful require 347 years of experience, and also 10 certifications on top of that, either way, it's not a great recipe for mental health. So when you're applying for jobs that just don't fit, the other thing that a lot of people don't think about is your communications, your application, even though when you're interacting with people, let's say that you get pushed through to the interview, even when you're interacting with other people, when you don't know exactly what you want, you don't know how this comes off is generic. You don't realize that it does. Until you've seen it from the other side over and over again. And I've been really fortunate to be involved in a lot of hiring processes, there's literally thousands of them over the last 25 years. And those overwhelmed hiring managers that I mentioned at the beginning of the episode, well, the generic applications, generic people coming in, this is what they get bombarded with constantly, is actually not that helpful to anybody, including the people applying. So when you know what you want, this allows you to be able to communicate more specifically, I think we've covered that right? But the part we haven't covered is it comes off as more useful, more interesting, more relevant, and more genuine, which is something that we all are looking for. This is what makes you actually stand out from the rest in a really useful way, and organic way too. Okay, I want to give you a couple examples here, the example and the difference of communication from two specific applicants. And we pulled some of this verbiage kind of a combination together from different types of applications that have seen over the years. And the first is what we normally see when someone's applying to roles or interested. The second is someone who obviously knows what they're looking for, and can truly see themselves in that role. Let's see if you can tell the difference.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:08

Example one, "I am a highly motivated professional with distinctive talents and skills that enable me to effectively educate and communicate the value of products/services, fostering trust with clients/customers. I firmly believe in the pivotal role of hard work, dedication, self discipline, in achieving success for both myself and the company that I represent." I'm not even sure I can get through the rest. It goes on to say, "The values upheld by your organization resonate with me and I'm eager to join your team blah, blah, blah, contributing to the collective success and blah, blah, blah by becoming an integral part of your professional family." Oh, my goodness, this was a lot of words, but it didn't really say anything. It comes across like this person is just saying what they think they should and pulled the rest from ChatGPT. It basically whatever they think the hiring manager wants to hear. This is what people got bombarded all day with. Imagine being a recruiter or a hiring manager or an HR professional talent acquisition, imagine reading this stuff all day. This is what people think they need to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:20

Let's listen to the second one. "My entire career has been customer-focused, and I thrive in this type of environment. The thrill of knowing you impacted someone's life whether that is big or small, with minimal effort or a heavy lift. It makes me feel so freakin good. When I am given the opportunity to be myself and communicate with someone freely without the hindrance of feeling robotic or scripted, I do my absolute best work. In my 14 years with my current company I primarily focused on customer experience and providing what we call white glove customer service. I eat, sleep, and breathe effective customer communication, tone of voice, being your best self, positive word and phrasing, planning and organization follow through follow-ups and so much more. Needless to say, customer service is my passion, and it's something that I truly enjoy. It makes me happy. I strive to provide the best experience possible to each customer as if it were my only one." Okay. Now, this isn't even what I would consider to be a phenomenal response. But you can see the difference, like it is very, very heavily different. One sounds much, much more genuine, it sounds like this is actually what they want. They've put not just some thought into it but they understand themselves enough to be able to communicate in a very different way. And then that very different way, appears to be more organic, more specific, more genuine. And it turns out that we, as humans, we respond to that, we get different results, were attracted to levels of clarity, were attracted to levels of specificity. Okay, so they made their own experience relevant to the job listing on top of it. And overall, it was an enjoyable read. It was relatively free of fluff, or lots of corporate jargon, there's a little bit in there that no one wants to bother with. They also did the most important thing. They clearly communicated what they love doing and explained how the open role fits them. It was built into it. It almost didn't feel like they were, a lot of people call the selling themselves. But in this case, it didn't feel like that. They were just communicating what they loved. Okay, I want to get into something that most people overlook here. If you are communicating what you enjoy and love to do and are great at and in the ways that you can contribute the best, but also, you're getting much back out of that, and you get hired for that, that's a great situation. But let's say that you're communicating the things that you think that you have to even though it doesn't fall into that category of enjoyment, or the right challenges, or the right types of contribution for you, and you get hired for that. That means you're stuck in a situation where it's actually not that great for you. A lot of people miss this logic. And this is where I want to get into the nitty gritty of job searching and how you can use this knowledge from what you need in your Ideal Career Profile to land the right opportunity. Not just any job, your ideal role, or what we often call your unicorn role. Okay, let's first point out the obvious, our society has shorter attention spans than ever before getting shorter by the minute. In fact, the recent research shows our attention span has decreased in specifically just the last 15 years in 2000 even it was 12 seconds, now it shrunk to about 8.25 seconds on average. And the funny thing, this means humans actually now have a shorter attention span than goldfish, who can focus on a task or object for like nine seconds. So how do we break through all of the noise here? Well, what's been proven time and again, is that customizing your interactions actually stand out making them relevant to the person who is listening, relevant and useful to the person that who is listening. Think about it. We live in an age where everything is customized to you. Your phone is set up to your preferences, the ads you see are personalized recommendations, even the music you hear on your streaming services, we've come to expect it at every single term. Customization grabs attention. And that's even true when it comes to job search– customizing your interactions, cover letters, resumes. And guess what helps you do that? Knowing what you want. Since you know what you're looking for, and what you bring to the table, it makes it that much easier to get really specific on how the role or organization you're discussing fits you. You can tailor every interaction to show why your strengths and your experiences are a great fit for the role. This type of customized job search, well, it takes longer than just clicking an Apply button.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:15

Oh my goodness, we have we opened up a role. And by the time this episode airs, it'll have been closed for a couple of months. But we opened up a role and I'll tell you, just recently, we have hundreds, hundreds of applications for this role where people have just to click the Apply button. And then it automatically sends their resume and the resume often has absolutely nothing to do with this. And then, you see the stories all over the place where it's like, "I've applied to 250 different roles." And people wonder why. People don't quite connect the dots normally for how this is pretty much a waste of time. It's a waste of time for the people who are applying, it's a waste of time for the organization itself. What really makes a difference? So you're not just finding just another job. And instead focusing on finding work that truly fits you is this customization. Now, I have to mention how AI can play into this. Like I said earlier, AI can come off as really generic and bland. But this can be really very helpful in a different way, though. If you're using AI to help you distill information or collaboration or get ideas on something, that's going to be very useful. If you're causing AI to write for you, a lot of times, it's going to write in the most bland way possible. It's going to come off much the same way or candidate that we just read earlier came off as very robotic. That doesn't mean AI can't be very useful. Think about job search as a marketing process. And it works just like any other type of marketing. We actually just used AI really recently for creating marketing, and copy for our Airbnb property. We made a big list of all our benefits and all the features that the house has. And then we asked ChatGPT to rank them. And then I asked him to rewrite them so it would fit our particular target market. I shared with ChatGPT the specific target market that we're looking for, and that we want to attract to rent the house. And then I said, "Hey, write a..." I probably actually did write "Hey" you don't need to if you don't want to, but I probably did, I said, "Hey, write a benefits-driven description of our house using these bullet points in 500 words or less." And then it popped out something. And then I was like, "Okay, now take this and make it shorter, make it more concise." And then once it was completed, I went in and personalized it and made it sound like if I were saying it out loud. By the way, that's a super easy secret if you want to stand out and feel more genuine. There are spaces where that doesn't make sense– academic could be an example for that or other professions where you need to adapt to that particular profession, or that particular person, which again, is about customization and knowing your market. In this case, though, writing as if you are talking is a huge hack that makes it feel more genuine. Here's an example of how you're doing this if you're tailoring your resume. Have your list of all your features and benefits. In this case, your results, responsibilities, experiences, achievements, the same things you might normally find on a resume for yourself. And then you're going to leverage AI to find the highest priority ones for a particular target market much the way what we did with Airbnb. In this case, the target market is whoever this resume or application is going to go to. So one of the ways that you can do that is by feeding the job description into AI as well. Then ask AI to find the highest priority, responsibilities, achievements, and bullet points on your resume and ask it to write a summary. And then you can generate multiple different options quickly, as opposed to struggling to write it for yourself, because that's where a lot of people get caught up. AI can do the initial work for you and then you can modify it. Once you have AI write multiple versions, the modification is much much easier, then you can make it sound like you and make it feel genuine. Make sure it aligns with what you actually want. If you're struggling to adapt this to where it feels like you are talking out loud, another simple solution would be to pull out your phone and use the dictate function or talk-to-text and just talk about each point and then take that and modify it from there. Sometimes it's easier for us to communicate authentically when we are saying it out loud verbally. And then once you have it down on paper, you can edit it so that it makes sense and you can come up with something really great. To some people, these might seem like a lot of extra steps in order to go from understanding what you want to be able to communicating what it is that you want. However, when you do this, you up the chances significantly. And I'll share just for me personally, it's been a while since I have personally done a job search although I do personal marketing all the time in various different ways. And obviously this is what we have done for thousands of people over the last 10-plus years now. But I'll tell you, for me personally when I was using the same exact type of approaches, I would get pushed through to the interview process almost every time. It was a rarity that I wouldn't get at least a first-step interview minimum. And the reason is because now we're customizing or tailoring, we're making it relevant to them, and therefore we are standing out amongst all of the other things at the bar is very low sometimes, and you can use that to your advantage.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:27

Now, let's talk for a minute just about recognizing what you want. AI can of course, save you time. When you're job searching today, it can help you get past some of those stuck points, it can help even prioritize for you. There's lots of that it can do. But knowing what you want may save you even more time. Here's what I mean. Completing an Ideal Career Profile helps you focus on jobs, industries, organizations that actually fit you. And consequently, the thing people don't think about is it makes it so much easier to identify if you're applying or going after the right roles, the right jobs, instead of wasting your time applying in interviewing for jobs that ultimately will not end up working out for you. It's very counterintuitive, because it seems like that it's a lot of work upfront to be able to customize, and to be able to tailor for each and every situation. However, if you only need to focus on two or three or four organizations and roles and opportunities until you find the right one versus the story that we just talked about a couple of minutes ago, where you hear it over and over again, like, "I applied to 250 or 350, 900, I applied to 900 jobs." Applying to 900 jobs, even if it's just a simple click easy button still takes a really, really long time– reading through all those job descriptions and finding them like that is insane, and it feels terrible on top of it. Instead, what we're talking about is yes, taking more time, but doing it for a much, much, much lower amount of opportunities because you have a higher level of assurance that these are right opportunities for you. And then it doesn't really come as a surprise when you're customizing, when you're tailoring, and when you are better aligned, when you know you're better aligned with that upfront, that you get better results. Not a surprise, right? When you've done the work to figure out what you want, and to begin applying for jobs that fit and talking to people about those opportunities, even more important than it is, that it's more effective. This process actually becomes more fun because you're interested in it, and you're excited about it. If you're not enjoying talking about those opportunities, or you're not getting excited when tailoring your resume to that job, that's probably a sign. Like even if you don't love tailoring resumes is still probably a sign that you might not enjoy working in that role every day. Pay attention to these feelings. I want to give you an example from Samantha on our team. She's our content manager. And recently this process showed her that she had been applying to the wrong roles for a long time.

Samantha Martin 23:23

Yeah, I found this when I was changing my resume for this role. Actually, I was finally enjoying what I was translating, like, I was taking stuff I actually enjoyed doing in my past roles. The things I actually liked, not just every single thing I was doing or the things I accomplished, but the things I really truly enjoyed in my past roles. And then I was translating those things into what this role was looking for. And I was excited about that, like, it was an enjoyable process because I was talking about things that I liked. And it was just finally all clicking into place and it started making sense. Like in the past, it was so hard for me to translate my marketing experience into what the application was looking for because turns out, none of those roles I was applying for were ever a good fit for me. And I was just continuously trying so hard to make it work. And so it was like red flag after red flag. Because I was like, "This is so hard and grueling to do. Why is it so difficult? I shouldn't be able to write a frickin resume. I'm a writer." But it turns out it wasn't my lack of skill. It was just the universe trying to tell me like stop trying to make this happen. It's not the right role. And when it finally was the right role, I could tell from the very beginning.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:43

Okay, we got specific on tailoring, resumes, tailoring applications. Let's talk about actual interactions with real people where you're, you know, having conversations with during the job search. Let's say you found an open role that fits you, tailored your resume, submitted your application, we recommend taking it a step further. Reach out to someone in the organization, make a connection. It's actually pretty easy to find most people on the internet today between LinkedIn or their company website. A lot of times, I can find somebody in less than five minutes, sometimes less than five seconds. A lot of job listings even have contact information for who the hiring manager is specifically, not all, but a lot. And once you find your method of contacting them, what you want to do is begin to build a relationship with that person inside the organization. Just a short paragraph, like, the example earlier in this episode can really get through when you know what you want and it can connect with that person inside the organization. We had a client, Jenna, who had figured out the exact type of organization she wanted to work with and made a list of organizations that fit that description. And there was one that kept topping the list. So when a role became available, she applied. And then she took it a step further to start building relationships with the people, the real people inside that company. She created loom videos, these are video messages, there's lots of ways to do this. And talked through what she wanted out of her next role, what skills and strengths she could bring to the organization. It's not the perfect solution for everybody but it's a great example. Here's Jenna, talking about how she did this.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:47

Well, it was not perfect for every single situation, but in your situation, I think it was highly effective because, one, as you said, you can put a face to the name, which creates more personal type of approach. It also, in your case, it was a casual company already, like that's how they operate, you had already done the research to indicate that that wasn't just a thing that they did on their website, like, they operate this way, right. So in your reach out, if you're modeling that in the same tone, it strategically feels to them like you fit. And more importantly, you'd already done the work yourself to realize that that's what you wanted. So you're simply answering their call to help them understand why you're a good fit in ways that they don't even necessarily, it's not like on a resume or anything like that. It just feels like generalists.

Jenna Bias 26:28

Just one step of research led to another and I found myself just learning a lot about the company that way. And then furthermore, when I decided to apply to certain positions in their application process, they often would have a little blurb about the hiring manager there. They're very transparent about who would be hiring. And I almost feel like, it's almost like an invitation like, we're telling you, "Hey, I'm the person doing the hiring here. I'm introducing myself to you via the application. I almost felt like it would be a disservice to not then go introduce myself." Like they're almost asking you, how do I felt. And so and I think for me, that made it a little bit more comfortable. So as far as reaching out, like via LinkedIn, or email that wasn't super challenging, it almost like I said, seemed invited. But then I did kind of take it to the next step and created a few loom videos to just kind of further introduce myself, but further express my interest, like face to face, because I mean, you can say so much in an email. But I feel like until you hear someone out and like see their genuine expression, I feel like that goes so much further. And at the end of the day, lots of people are sending emails. So I feel like if you can create a little video and kind of put a face to the name, I think for me that ended up being priceless.

Jenna Bias 28:39

Right. I think too, I didn't mention this but the fear that goes along with it is like oh, the potential of them not responding which: A, I realized now it really doesn't matter. They get so much influx of information. It's like, who cares if they don't respond. But for me, my CEO did end up acknowledging my video and just sent me like a simple email back, telling me good luck on the interview process. And from there, I ended up applying to, I think, four different times through a few different roles. And every step of the way, I just sent her an email updating her on my journey. And she responded to every single email not being like, nothing like extraordinary, but just the response itself was like, to me, again, just as exemplified, this is a company I want to work for. Here's this busy CEO taking time out of her day to just shoot me a quick email, acknowledging the work that I'm putting in to try and be a part of our organization. And then yeah, as far as applying to multiple roles, it just came down to, "I knew this is the company I wanted to work for." So again, rather than spreading myself thin across different companies, I was like, "No, I'm just going to focus here." And even though I actually got denied initially for my current role, obviously in the end, it ended up paying off when I applied the second time and I think a large part of that was because I had already touched base with the hiring manager, we did already kind of have that rapport. And yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:06

Okay, so let's dig into that for just a second. What did that look like? Take me through, I think you said you applied for four, how many did you interview for? What did the process look like?

Jenna Bias 30:17

Yeah, so one of them that I applied for initially, to be frank, I knew was, not that it wasn't a good fit, I was just like, highly underqualified. It didn't so much, I think there's a lot of situations where you can pull from your past work, and kind of more fit to fit new roles. In this situation, when I tried to do that, it was a stretch, to say the least. But I gave it a go. And that was one of those situations where I did create a limb for that hiring manager, as well as their recruiter. And I sent her a LinkedIn message just introducing myself. And she was very sweet in her response and transparent in the fact that I probably wasn't going to have what they were looking for in that role. But again, it was the response for me of how they handled it, that didn't turn me away because they were so inviting, encouraging. Not everyone's gonna be a good fit for every role. So I didn't take it personally. Late, fast forward, I applied to one other role that I never actually heard back from because I think what happened is I applied to my current role. And at that point, I had made contact with the recruiter. So I went through the recruiter, like a phone screening, and then got to the first round interview with the hiring manager, which it went great. I really connected and talked about the role, and it was something that I thought it'd be like a really good fit. And then I didn't make it to the next two phases of the interview. So then at that point, we exchanged some emails, she again, when I got the denial email, I asked her just for positive feedback, you know, "What can I do differently? Any recommendations moving forward." And she sent me like a novel, which was super awesome. I could tell she took, like, time out her day to give me feedback. Am I ever gonna be working at her company? It can be she doesn't really even know me. But I think that's because when we had our interview, like, we were able to connect, even though I didn't end up being the pick for the role that time, she could still, you know, connect with me on a personal level. And we still learn a lot about each other. So to me that first interview was still a win, because we fostered like a relationship.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:24

Yeah. Wait, can we dig into that for just a second? Because I think that's a frustration for so many people, like, "Hey, I'll ask for feedback", and they won't get anything. But you got a novel worth of feedback because, not by accident, and yes, this is an amazing organization. And clearly, they value people who are interested in them. But also they don't have infinite amounts of time too. So the reason this worked is you've already started to establish some kind of beginnings of relationship with the CEO. I'm sure those emails were probably forwarded, I don't know, but probably they were forwarded over to recruiting, or maybe they were BCC'd or something else along those lines. You had continuous touchpoints all along the way. Maybe they talk behind the scenes, maybe they didn't. But then you had, as you said, begun to build a connection during that interview, and you had focused on that. So you now have the beginnings of relationships. So now, it's not just some random candidate asking for feedback. It is this person that I know and had a great time with. And that's totally different than when you go to make the ask than just some random person that's out there. So I wanted to take a moment and just break that down because you did a really nice job allowing it to get to that point, so that it worked when you went and asked for feedback.

Jenna Bias 33:40

Yeah, I think a big thing for me, I'm sure it's probably for other people as well, is because I had all those touchpoints. And in seeing institutions that like asking for feedback, I know big thing for me, it was like kind of a fear component. I almost felt like, "Oh my gosh, am I reaching out too much?" You said, oh, they're probably talking behind the scenes, like in a good way. But in my mind, I was like, "Man, are they like, that Jenna girl, she applied again?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:06

Never hire that one.

Jenna Bias 34:09

Yeah, can't get rid of her. And of course, that's just your, like, limiting beliefs that I'm sure everyone has. But no. So then after I reached out, got that feedback, it was great feedback. I rather I was, obviously I was disappointed. But like you said, a lot of people when they get denied are kind of turned off and like maybe would like go the other way. But I was just more intrigued and I was more like on board I sent like a really nice email back. And I told her I was like, "I'm gonna continue to like watch your job board. But if a spot opens up in the future, like, please do consider me." And so sure enough, I did watch their job board here and there. And I think it was two or three months after I initially applied for that role that I happened to notice that the role was up again. And so I just reached out directly to the hiring manager before submitting an application just to kind of express my interest in right away. She was like, "Oh, yeah, like you were actually on my list of people reached out to you this week, I definitely would want you to reapply, if you could just go ahead and submit application like, won't go through the process of interviewing again." So I did that. And then obviously, this time, I made it through the entire interview process, which was that initial interview with the hiring manager, again, I did a mock demo. So a big part of my job is doing demos for my company. So they just, you know, it's kind of a mixture, you can do the job kind of thing. And then I had an interview with my manager's manager. And then the last kind of piece was a call with the CEO. So that was the steps.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:40

All of Jenna's reach-out paid off. She did not end up getting the first role she applied for but she had built a relationship with the people inside that organization. So when a job did become available, she actually turned the tables. And they thought of her as an ideal candidate for the brand new open role, because they already had that trust with her, they already had that familiarity with her. It was easy at that point, very, very different. And more importantly, she actually was getting something that she wanted. Pretty cool, right? Okay, you know, the most effective way to job search. It all starts with you, and getting clarity on what you truly want, and what you need out of your career is the key to this. Once you've done this, it will be much easier to find roles that fit your ideal career profile. And it'll make tailoring your resume, your cover letters, your in-person interactions, much more natural, much more genuine and ultimately much more effective. Again, check out the show notes for links to the resources that we covered in this episode, I think that you'll really enjoy it. Once you've gotten clear about what you want, all of a sudden, that puts you in a much better position to be able to get specific and ask for and then get what you want.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:03

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put conversation in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with conversation in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:55

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 38:01

There was a part of me that definitely recognized that I was, I had strengths, and I had value to offer an organization. But I didn't know how to navigate the next steps. Work out how I could communicate what my skill sets and value were.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:24

Let's say that you took a break from your career. Many people do. I've personally done it. Whether it was for your children, your health, travel, whatever. When it comes time to return to the workforce, it's common to not want to go back to the same work that you were doing before your break. However, if you've only worked in one industry, or done one type of role, or worked for one organization, it can feel well, a little challenging. It can be really hard to figure out how to translate the experiences you've had to a new industry or new role or new opportunity. So the question becomes how do you do that? How do you translate all these experiences in a way that becomes useful to other people?

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:09

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep and you get it automatically. Even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week, adios. I'm out.

Stephanie Bilbrey 00:01

But that goes back to, "If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got." And so by taking this kind of like incremental safe approach to career change, and like just career nudges, was not yielding me the vision of engaged work

Introduction 00:25

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:49

Why does making a career change feel risky to so many people? I mean, I get it, if you're in an organization where the pay is great, or the benefits are awesome, or you have the flexibility that you want to continue to have, or maybe even the people are absolutely wonderful, and you're afraid of losing all of that. But here's the thing, even if you're not really happy with the job, and not really happy with the situation, what goes through so many of our heads is, "Is it worth taking the risk on a new career and possibly losing all the good parts?" But have you ever considered why it feels risky to you? Now, I would argue two things. One, that after doing this many, many years, not just the podcast, but helping thousands of people through career change, we don't typically see that people are losing all the good parts. We see that that rarely ever happens. And instead, I would argue that the far larger risk is the risk of doing nothing and staying for more years of your life in a situation that's no longer good for you.

Stephanie Bilbrey 01:57

I feel like I've been on autopilot. I've been checking boxes that my elders told me to check. So not really taking risks and listening to my heart. So that was my first kind of, like, "Somethings got to change."

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:12

That's Stephanie. She worked for years in community college environment and was plagued by an aversion to risk. I think it's pretty safe to say she was comfortably unhappy in her role. Now, once she finally saw the writing on the wall, she decided to face her fears and embrace the unknown to find her ideal role. Now, here's the really crazy thing. If we fast forward to what happened at the end of her change, she ended up surpassing her own expectations, by a longshot in terms of salary, and what was possible for her and her happiness in her career. Now, I want you to listen for that. But let's start out as Stephanie shares right here right now, what caused her to want to make a change in the first place.

Stephanie Bilbrey 02:58

I will say that I feel like I've been toying with my career for like, a decade. But looking at the work that I've been doing in the last couple of months or past year, previously in that last decade, I wasn't bringing intentionality and reflection and risk. I was taking this kind of like small hopeful fingers crossed kind of pivot. And but then questioning like, "Is this the right company? Is this the right role?" And then later, you know, that impostor syndrome comes up, "Is it me? Is that what's wrong?" I was actually listening to the podcast that you did with Dan Pink. And he said something to the effect of many people go their lives half asleep. Am I quoting that right? Something like that?

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:37

It was something similar to that. Yes.

Stephanie Bilbrey 03:39

So that actually really hit home with me because my husband and I, about seven years ago, had been toying with the idea of moving across the country, going out west, just appending our lives. And in my sign-off letter to the organization I was working on at the time, I feel like I've been on autopilot. I've been checking boxes that my elders told me to check. So not really taking risks and listening to my heart. So that was my first kind of like, "something's got to change." But I kind of leaned on moving across the country to be the, like, thing that offends everything and changes my career. And so needless to say, that was not the solution. I'm so glad that I did it. It was amazing. I've actually moved back to the East Coast since that initial. But you know, so I kind of, like, shook up the industry that I was working in, I started working in higher education, I started digging heavier into a different industry. But turns out that wasn't the solution either. So one of my favorite quotes is, "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got." So it became evident that I was ready to move back across the country to be closer to family. I said, "I have got to do right by my career." And so that foundational work began and then I did the bootcamp probably about six months after coaching.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:02

Wow. So this is, in any ways, as you said, been a journey, a decade in the making but especially in the last three years, is what I'm hearing. And now, you've been in a variety of different areas, you said, higher education, you've been in event planning, you've been even the marketing side of events, if I remember correctly, too, right? And also dipped into, like training and content development, those types of pieces as well. So you've been in a lot of areas, but it sounded like it wasn't as much about the area for you, it wasn't as much about, in some ways, the exact occupation for you, it's more about other pieces. So you know, as you were thinking about making this change, and you're really starting to take some steps, then, what were some of the pieces that at that point in time, you were feeling like you were either missing or wanting to change? What was the reason for the change?

Stephanie Bilbrey 06:01

You know, some people, they have a calling. And that's not the case for everyone. I've listened to enough of these podcasts, and I'm like, "It's okay if you don't have a calling. It's okay."

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:11

It's okay. It'll be there.

Stephanie Bilbrey 06:13

You know, I made peace with that. But it's like I had these fits and starts of, "I'm passionate about this." And then like a year or two or three later, I'm like, "I hate this", you know. I had a very specific moment where I was working, moving away toward event planning over several years, but I had to lean back into it when I moved across the country because I had to get a bridge job. And I remember this woman coming into the office and she was a client. It was a big conference convention center. And she came in devastated. The event is going on, and she said, "We agreed on white napkins. In ballroom A, there are white. In ballroom F, there are ivory." I mean, she looked like the world was ending. And I was like, "I can't do this anymore. This is not what I want." So where's that spark? And you know, marketing wasn't doing it for me. And I even started like a local networking organization for marketing because I was like, "This is it. This is cutting edge." And I was like, "Man, I really liked these people. But this isn't doing it for me either." So I think really what it comes down to is just, I wanted to feel engaged with the work I was doing, I wanted to be excited about it, even if it's not a calling.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:30

Calling is such an interesting word. I have had lots... I've had probably, I don't know, 500 or so conversations where people are like, "Hey, what you do is a calling." And I don't even know if I'd identify with that word to be quite honest. I can absolutely see how people get that. However, I really don't necessarily identify with that word. And I think that the reason I'm bringing that up is because it doesn't have to be something that you feel like it's a calling, but it does have to hit all the buttons per se for you to feel fulfilled, rewarded, engaged, and maybe it's doesn't even matter that much about what word you identify with, but where you're feeling something towards it emotionally, and that is something that is on an ongoing basis. And often, we've seen that that lines up with, not just the work itself, but also the environment and the type and way that you're making an impact, and you can see that impact. Because I think the story that you told is really interesting one because I have met some people in the world where they would describe that napkin situation. And they would say, "You know what, this event mattered so much to that person that I felt very compelled to make sure that they had the white napkins as opposed to the ivory ones because I can see how I'm helping." But it's also totally okay, that that's not how you want to help and you don't get that type of fulfillment from that. Everybody has to find their own brand of fulfillment and menu.

Stephanie Bilbrey 08:57

If there are any event planners out there, it is okay if that is very important to you. Absolutely. Just there it is simply a misalignment on my part.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:06

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that, though. Like, I don't think that there's anything wrong with that. And that is, in many ways, the challenge in this journey. So as you started going through, and as you began trying to identify, "Hey, what would create a great next step for me? What would create an ideal next step for me?" What did that beginning of the journey really look like for you? Where did you start? How did that work for you?

Stephanie Bilbrey 09:27

I would say that it started with when I engaged a career coach. It very quickly became life coaching. The thing that rose to the top most quickly as my initial mountain to climb was my aversion to risk.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:48

In what way? When you say aversion to risk, I think there's lots of people that say that, but what does that mean for you?

Stephanie Bilbrey 09:53

I would say, like, primarily financial risk, never leaping from one job without having another one secured, those kinds of conventions. And then I just think fear of the unknown is a risk. And you know, a career change brings so many complicated emotions and I don't like that space very much. So much of that impostor syndrome. And what if I fail? That became very evident to me right away, that is your first area that you got to work on. Is this work is hard? You know, listen to the podcast, and knowing the challenge that lies ahead, you've got to kind of get into a discomfort zone.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:36

I think that when you say, get into a discomfort zone, that is...

Stephanie Bilbrey 10:42

Sounds terrible to describe?

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:44

It does sound kind of terrible. But why do you say that? Why was that such a big thing for you? What role did that play in this process? Can you think of a time where did you start getting outside your comfort zone beyond the risk?

Stephanie Bilbrey 10:58

Yeah, well, a couple of things. First of all, it just goes back to, "if you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got." And so by taking this kind of like incremental safe approach to career change, and like just career nudges was not yielding me the vision of engaged work. Note, I didn't say calling. So for me, I know this sounds strange because it sounds so nice. But meditation and reflection, going back to what we were previously talking about, getting deeper into my why. So much of the bootcamp work resonated with me, you know, because it was your first response, you need to go deeper, you need to ask yourself, "Is it three whys? Five whys?" I can't remember.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:44

There's a problem-solving methodology that has an exercise where it is five whys. And generally, five whys is deep enough. And it goes something along the lines of, and I think this is what you're alluding to Stephanie is, you're saying, "Well, okay, well, why am I at work? Well, because I need to earn money. But why do I need to?" Keep going to layer and layer and layer deeper. Or it's, "Hey, why do I feel that I want fulfillment?" And then going to the next level. "Well, because I feel like I'm missing something. Well, why do I feel like I'm missing something?" And just keep going layer and layer until you get to what's called the root cause. But now that our bass caught up, why was that so interesting for you?

Stephanie Bilbrey 12:23

Because that's really where the meat was, where my values were, where the answers were, you know, I'll give you an example. And I think this is your eight-day mini course. I love to the question, "If you had the opportunity to teach something, what would you teach?" And one of my answers was, I love branding. I love creating a whole world for a company and a look and a feel and a tone, especially, you know, a lot of ground communications, because that really is a major kind of pillar in my skills and my interests. But through asking why and digging deeper, I realized that there was more to that for me and that it was organizational culture, it was company branding, that I really was digging into and latching on to, that was a thread for me. So that led me down that path of, not only is culture important to me wherever my career goes, company culture and good work-life balance, you know, throw out those buzzwords. But I need to be in it. I need to help direct it in some way. Doesn't mean that like, I am the Director of Culture for company X. But it was through those kinds of exercises that I was able to pull out that thread. And if I hadn't been meditating, as part of that, creating that kind of, it doesn't sound uncomfortable when I say it because it's like meditating is really nice. But for me, and digging deeper, and taking time to myself, also, that's a whole other thing that I'm sure many career searchers can understand and empathize with is just like the time to do this and to justify nothing. You just sit here and you think, it can be really hard. So another way that I was adding disruption to my life, adding discomfort is taking on hard conversations at work that I would have normally run away from screaming. For example, I don't like interpersonal conflict. I don't know who does but I'm like, it's my kryptonite. But man, did it get me out of my comfort zone? Did it challenge me? Did it keep me on my toes? Does that directly relate to my career, you know, kind of work and the results that I got? No, but it got me in a better space to be broader in the way that I was thinking and just more welcoming of discomfort.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:45

That's really interesting. So one of the pieces and parts that I had picked up as you were going through making this change, just in tidbits of communication. I can't remember whether it's from a conversation or from an email, but it really is seemed like this was an inching along process for you, and not in a bad way at all, in a great way. And when I say an inching along process, it seems like each of these little pieces, like, taking the time, not just the meditation itself, but taking the time, the practice of taking the time to meditate and do something that normally wouldn't have or get outside your comfort zone with some of these conflict type conversations, each of these paved little tiny inch spaces to be able to get to the next step and the next inch. And that was really, really interesting to me because I think you did such a great job of going one inch at a time consistently, even though it probably didn't always feel that way.

Stephanie Bilbrey 15:41

It felt like 17,000 inches at the same time.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:47

So here's my question with that, then. When you were beginning to recognize some of these themes or threads that you mentioned earlier, and you started getting into the experimentation phase of the process, what we call the experimentation phase of the process, what did that look like for you?

Stephanie Bilbrey 16:04

It looked like one way was just reaching out to former colleagues, friends. One of the exercises that I loved within bootcamp was just getting feedback on your strengths from a variety of people. That was one way that I approached it. Another way was, honestly, dropping in words that really were resonating with me on LinkedIn, and seeing the web of connections that were there. So for me, culture was a word. So I would find individuals on LinkedIn, some of them were second and third weak ties, some of them were not. And then I just hit the phone hard trying to make those connections and asking good questions, 15-20 minutes, that's all you got. So trying to understand what made them successful in their career, what they love about what they're doing in culture. And I was talking to a lot of different people to just get as many perspectives about how one could interact with and be in support of culture.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:09

What are a couple of examples of those, like, different... I know, we have a tendency to say, "Hey, it's less important about the job title, because that's drastically different from the organization." But what were some of these people responsible for or doing? Or how were they interacting with culture? What's a couple of examples of that?

Stephanie Bilbrey 17:24

Yeah, absolutely. Training, organizational development, and change management. So those are kind of more like corporate buzzwords, their process certified, which sounds intimidating, but then I also went down that, like, "Do I need a certification route?" And some of them were internal communicators. So really responsible, obviously, those tend to be larger organizations that need that kind of role. And some of them were, I would say, more traditional kind of HR folks that took on more of the well-being, you know, well-being champion. Those kinds of things.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:54

Interesting. So that is such a span. And it can be. And I think that that's true for every time that at least we're interacting with people through a career change process, that they start to discover, like, this can be a big thing. Now, the other thing that we often see happen, and I don't know how much this did or didn't happen in your case, but when people go through, and they're having those types of conversations, or they're getting feedback in a new and different way, and getting an exposure in a new and different way, they're often getting realizations that help them to pinpoint where they might be interested in. So what did that look like for you? Did that happen for you? And how did that look?

Stephanie Bilbrey 18:33

Yes, it did happen for me. I would say what one area that resonated for me a lot was when I would talk to the internal communicators. And you know, it's funny. I mean, how many times have people said to you, "Scott, the writing was always on the wall, like, why didn't I see it?" Like, it was like, duh. But, you know, hindsight is 2020. But, you know, for so long in different organizations, you'd be in a situation where you would be at a table with your co-workers, and somebody would ask you, "Why do you like working here? Why do you work here?" And my co-workers would have some mission-based answer. You know, I worked in higher education. "I'm here for the students", and then it would get to me. And then I would...

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:12

"I'm here for the white napkins."

Stephanie Bilbrey 19:14

Oh, "Y'all, I'm here for you." I mean, other people would say that too. You know, I love my co-workers. But I worked in theater. Yes, the theaters, the art is so important. But I found myself saying, "I'm here for my co-workers before I'm here for the art, before I'm here for the students before I'm here for the mission-driven thing." So that was a huge realization for me. So then, kind of combining all of that together and realizing like that particular example internal communications, that's my customer is the co-workers.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:48

Okay, so that's such an interesting example, Stephanie, because I think there is so many different ways that that can go. First of all, you made a really great point that, often, when people go through this type of process and they're trying to clarify what makes an amazing next step for them, and even beyond that, and what great looks like, and you know that we often, if we're helping with that type of change, then we'll often help in the form of creating what the ideal career looks like and a profile of that, if you will. However, I think the great point that you made there is that so often it comes out on the other side where the writing has been there and now you can clear enough away to be able to pay attention to it in a way that simply wasn't possible before. And I think so many people go into this process thinking, "You know what, I'm going to discover something brand new. I'm going to be a beekeeper." Or, "I'm going to be a..." I don't know, insert your occupation here that is just absolutely polar one ad from whatever, you know, people have been doing. And that's so often not the case, it occasionally does happen. But so often, it's not the case. So great point. And then for you, my question becomes, as you were thinking about that writing on the wall piece, what caused you to begin to pay attention to it in a way that was helpful for you? And I'll preface that only to say that I think so often people feel like, "Hey, I'm saying I'm here for you. But I really feel like I don't actually have an answer, or I feel bad about my answer, or I feel like I shouldn't have that answer, even if it is true." Instead of saying, "You know what, this actually means something." And in your case, it really absolutely did mean something, meant everything in many different ways.

Stephanie Bilbrey 21:31

You know, one of the terms that you hear a lot, one of the phrases in bootcamp is, "What can you not stop doing?" And so for me, thinking about my co-workers, and not that the customer is not important, the customer is very, very, very important. But when your knee-jerk reaction when you look at a process, or communication, or anything is internal versus external, that was a light bulb for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:57

The other thing that I wanted to ask you because it's easy to sit here and say, okay, you know, if we skipped to the end of what the story looked like for you, you got not one but multiple job offers, you did a fantastic job negotiating with both of those job offers and speaking of those conflict conversations, you had some more conversations that were way outside your comfort zone. And you did a fantastic job with those. But aside from that, what would you say was the hardest part of making this type of career change? The type of career change where you're putting yourself in the way that you want to show up in the world first?

Stephanie Bilbrey 22:34

I would say that the hardest part for me was just taking risks in general. It's such an uncomfortable thing for me. But to that end, I moved across the country yet again, without a job. And it really was the right decision for me. But the work was really hard and sometimes a confidence killer. And so to be so drained, you know, and you're already trying to fight your fear. You know, like, "I don't know if I can call this person. I don't know if I can leave this job", in addition to just being kind of run ragged from the phone calls and trying to figure it out that I wasn't anticipating that drain and that challenge that uphill battle. I thought it was going to be ripping resumes apart, you know, like, "Oh, I'm embarrassed. Okay." It goes so much deeper than that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:29

What advice would you give to that person who's in that same place where they realize and recognize that the situation they're in is not where they want to be, and they know that there is something much better out there, but they're in that place where those fears are popping up. And that beginning stage is such a hard place to be to even committing to making this type of change and call it a career change. But really, it's a life change.

Stephanie Bilbrey 23:57

Yeah, I definitely would have told myself to start even sooner.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:03

Hold on. Why is that? I'm curious.

Stephanie Bilbrey 24:04

I don't regret my career trajectory at all. But to have looked back and known that so many years were not spent as engaged as I could have been, as happy as I could have been, just kind of miring through, that would be a motivator right there to tell, you know, 2011 Stephanie, "Hey, this kind of incremental safety net approach won't yield what your heart really wants." You know, that's like a big overarching. So it kind of fast forward a little bit and I have already learned a little bit of lessons. I would say the advice that I would have given myself is to research more to be as curious as possible. I tend to be a doer, not that I'm not a thinker. However, if given the opportunity, I rely more heavily on go implementation, press the start button. Knowing what I know now, creating more opportunities for research, more opportunities for curiosity, I think would have been really helpful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:10

That's interesting. Any other pieces of advice that you would give to those people who are just now thinking about this, or maybe in the midst of a career change? You've done a great job going all the way through. And I know that some of the things that you've learned through this process will probably help you for many, many years to come, not just now, in the immediate future. What did you say? You're 60 days into your role. You sit in a different place than two or three years ago. So anything else that you would encourage that person to think about as it relates to this process?

Stephanie Bilbrey 25:43

Well, first of all, it truly takes a village to change careers, in my opinion. I think there's this expectation that we put on ourselves that we can figure this out, that it's not rocket science, and it's my own personal journey. So it's just on me. And that is so not the case. Not only does it take a village of your immediate, you know, friends or family rely on some of those folks, as well, but it takes a village of like strangers, actually, you know, depending on the kind of research that you need to do and the connections that you want to make. You are like reaching out into the great unknown to say, "Hi, your LinkedIn profile story is fascinating to me. Do you have 15 minutes?" And that can be very uncomfortable. But some of those uncomfortable reach outs yielded such critical connections for me, and specifically, what I really latched on to and loved was make it easy for people to say yes, so I worked on that a lot. And the other, there was a podcast that you did– Jay Papasan. Yes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:45

Yeah. Jay is great.

Stephanie Bilbrey 26:47

That piece of advice that he gives about relationships are like bank accounts– you have to put in deposits before he can make withdrawals. It's actually this specific piece of advice that got the ball rolling to get me to the job, where I am right now. I took that. And I realized there was a specifically one day I said, "I need to make some deposits." And there was a former co-worker. And I reached out to her with no agenda whatsoever. And we had kind of like, kept in touch on social media, but I knew how connected she was on LinkedIn. And I said, "How was your holiday? How are your kids?" And the rest, I don't wanna say the rest is history. First of all, it's really trite. And the next two or three months were like, really painful and roller coaster. But it was literally that idea. And therefore that moment of sending that email that set the rest in motion.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:41

That's interesting. So you're saying that taking that idea of building relationships or giving to others without expectation as part of how I'm interpreting that and making those deposits if you will, then that is part of what led to this actual opportunity for you?

Stephanie Bilbrey 28:01

Yes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:01

Very cool. Love it. We see that so often. But I think that's also a really hard thing for so many of us. Because the thoughts that jump into our heads are like, "But I need a job", or, like, "Where do I do the thing that then gets me to the job offer?" Like, and it is, in many ways, going against those short-term benefits or short-term type of tactics that then allow to focus on long term. That's the big takeaway that I have more recently realized about this type of process and how we guide people through it, it requires long-term approaches to get to long-term solutions versus short-term approaches get to short-term solutions that you don't want to be in for very long job or otherwise,

Stephanie Bilbrey 28:46

Yes. And then, you know, just like totally on a granular level. The applicant tracking system, traditional way, applying resume and cover letter, is terrible. And also way less likely. And from what I've seen than the relationship pathway to not only a career change, but the actual job, it kind of does double duty in that way. Like I spent so much time on cover letters and resumes that went nowhere.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:20

Oh my goodness. Yes. I feel like you do seven hours a podcast on why not to do that. However, we'll make that into a series later on. Let me...

Stephanie Bilbrey 29:30

Even if you yielded some success. But overall, it is not what got me where I am right now.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:36

I think that it really depends on what your goal is. We've really toyed around with how to explain this in a way that makes sense, but it's hard to explain it in a soundbite. But if you think about it in terms of, if your goal is to get a job, maybe even a well-paying job as quickly as possible, then that means that going on job boards and looking at what is open right this second, and what people need and trying to match yourself into that, that is the best way to go. If that's your goal. However, if you have goals, much more likely you've described Stephanie, where you were looking for that fulfillment, you were looking for that calling, and you were looking for that thing that was missing in one way or another or multiple things that were missing, and that's really what you want, and that's a priority for you, it requires a completely different solution. It requires completely different tactics. It requires a completely different. So I think it really does depend on your goal. And you've done a really nice job taking steps that lead you towards what your goal actually was. One more thing I really wanted to ask you about, partially because we were just talking through it before we even really hit the record button here at the beginning of our conversation, but you did such a nice job working through multiple offers. And that was very uncomfortable for you. So first of all, what's not always obvious is the work that it takes to get to more than one offer. You know, when we talk about two or three or four offers on this podcast, I think it gets glossed over and people don't realize how much work. But what was your biggest takeaway in working through that type of situation before we end here?

Stephanie Bilbrey 31:13

I would say transparency and honesty were really, really helpful to call someone that, and I have to say that this particular human being was so lovely, and saw value in me that other interview situations had not... I couldn't feel that the way that I could feel this with this particular company, and individual. So hello makes it so much harder. But so than saying those kinds of things and saying, "I didn't envision that it would work out this way. And I was so genuinely excited for this opportunity. I hope we can stay in touch." Were helpful, I think, to kind of say there was a substantial amount of respect and excitement, but then a level of understanding as well, to help ease the blow.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:13

Hey, if you've been listening to our episodes here at Happen To Your Career and you want to make an intentional career change to much more meaningful work and have it neatly laid out into an organized framework, well, guess what, we actually have that available for you in the Happen To Your Career book. It's available on Amazon, Audible anywhere else where you get your books. You'll learn about the five hidden obstacles, stopping your career change, how to figure out what would truly make you happy with your career. And what brings you more happy more often. And more importantly, how to transition to a much more fulfilling career and life. You can find the book on Amazon, Audible anywhere where books are sold, by the way, people are particularly loving the audio book, which you can access right now in second.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:01

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up for you next week right here on Happen To Your Career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:08

Job search today is very different than it was 20 years ago. Recruiters and hiring managers are absolutely drowning in potential candidates today. So how do you convince them to give you a chance– a chance for an interview, a job, or even just the time of day? Well, it turns out, it's actually not about convincing the hiring manager or recruiter that you're the absolute best perfect fit for this job. That's not it. There's not just one secret Jedi mind trick that's going to make them choose you. So what is it then? What matters most when it comes to your job search? That evasive answer is what we break down in this episode of the Happen To Your Career podcast.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:52

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Bree Hunter 00:01

That's what I found really awakening with doing the StrengthsFinder is, "No, these are actually strengths which can be perceived as weaknesses in your current role."

Introduction 00:18

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:43

We get questions every week about assessments, particularly the Clifton Strengths Finder assessment. Is it accurate? Will it tell me what type of career I should focus on? How do I use it outside of my work? All good questions. However, we thought it would be better to show you how people can use strengths, what they are, how they work, and even incorporate them into things, like, interviews, and everything else. And we also thought it would be best if we showed you this real-time.

Bree Hunter 01:12

I don't get that time to be strategic or positive, pushing things forward in a positive light. And I think that's what I really enjoyed about the role I'm interviewing for is I was so energized by planning something positive for the community to utilize in the future.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:30

That's Bree Hunter from Tasmania. She's worked for the city of Hobart in a role that used to be great for her, but no longer fits what she wants. What you'll hear is us doing an actual recorded coaching session, where she had just taken the Clifton Strengths Finder assessment and is trying to figure out how she can use the results. You want to listen pretty close to this conversation because there's a pretty big surprise at the end. Here's our conversation and coaching session, take a listen as a fly on the wall.

Bree Hunter 02:00

So yeah, I really enjoyed the StrengthsFinder test. I found that really useful to sort of pull a few things together and things that you're kind of already feeling but haven't really been able to articulate or put into some sort of framework.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:17

Yeah. Very cool. And if I have this up here correctly, it looks like your strengths themes from Strength Finder were learner harmony, restorative, positivity, and individualization. Does that sound right?

Bree Hunter 02:31

That's right. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:32

Very cool. So then the other thing that I saw from the email that you sent a little bit earlier today, or let's see here, was that you're hoping to get a little bit better understanding of how you can actually leverage these. So now that you have the ability to articulate them a little bit differently, how do you actually use these things. And then it sounds like currently, you are, well, I mean, obviously, you got another job interview coming up here. But your past role or current role feels like it is not the right fit for several reasons, and you talked about workplace culture. And did you use the term busy work? Is that what it was?

Bree Hunter 03:14

I did. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:17

Okay.

Bree Hunter 03:18

It's a case of, I've been in this role for two and a half years now. And before that, I was still sort of connected to this role. And I loved it for a period of time. And it's just, I've changed and grown, I guess. So it's time to take on a new challenge. And I was acting in the role I'm applying for, although I'm interviewing for later today. And that's where I found it really energized me the thing that I was doing. And then having done the Strength Finder, it just backed up why those particular functions were energizing me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:56

What were some of those functions?

Bree Hunter 03:58

Working with a community. So it was project managing. The planning phase of new projects, and I was working on new mountain bike tracks. So I got to do all the community consultation, and the planning around that. And I really enjoyed getting feedback from the community and advocating for what they wanted. And also, within our work for city council, pulling people together within the council to get the project going, like, I don't hold claim to hold the expertise, I really rely on other people's expertise and getting the right people together to make something happen, and just sort of facilitating that process.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:41

Okay. All right. That makes sense. So let me ask you a few questions, then. And then I think I can help with a few of these things. First of all, just a clarifying question, the role that you're interviewing for, is that in the same organization, or is that a different organization?

Bree Hunter 05:01

It's the same organization. But at the moment, I'm in operations at like a depo sort of setting. And that role would be in the town office away from operations.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:14

Okay, very good. So let's see if we can leave a little bit of time in terms of working up to how you talk about strengths and interviews. Because different than how most people would think, very often, they find that many of us perceive that we're going to need to talk about them extensively and use like the right word so that it perfectly matches up to our strengths and everything. And I find that there's much easier, much more organic ways to be able to leverage your strengths in your interview. So let's see if we can leave a few minutes to talk about that towards the end. And then in the meantime, let's see if we can get to the bottom of some of these strengths and even understand them a little bit deeper so that we can figure out how to answer some of the other questions in terms of what is right for you. Is that fair?

Bree Hunter 06:03

Excellent. Okay.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:05

Cool. So along those lines then, you said it sounded like a lot of these when you read them do line up. Are there any in particular that you find don't match up for one reason or another? I guess that's question number one.

Bree Hunter 06:22

No, I think they all line up. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:26

Okay, great. What about, then out of these five that you have on this list, are there any that resonate with you more so than the others?

Bree Hunter 06:36

I would say, learner, restorative, and individualization.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:45

Okay, so tell me about each one of those. Let's start with individualization. So what about that really feels like, "Yeah, this is clearly high resonated or high priority."

Bree Hunter 06:59

Okay. It resonates because in my job I manage a team of people. And I really enjoy leading people. And I like resolving conflicts. I like carrying people together. You might not think through each other, but I can see they've got particular strengths, or weaknesses that counterbalance one another. And a lot of that comes from just my own experience working in small teams. What else? I think everyone's unique. I enjoy learning from other people's experiences and learning from that. And at the same time, I really enjoy having responsibility that I sort of have control for the end product and making sure that things are completed.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:52

Yeah, that makes sense. Those things particularly, I think, that everyone is unique. Those are things that somebody who can't help but individualize would say. That's very individualistic of you Bree. So what about the other two? I want to just understand just a little bit more, and then I've got a few questions that I want to help take us a little bit deeper on this.

Bree Hunter 08:19

Okay. As far as the learner, I'm just sort of skimming what it says makes you stand out. I love the learning. But as it's in there, which I thought was interesting, I actually enjoy the process of learning. Like, I might not retain all the information, but I love the activity of it. And particularly things I'm interested in, like, for the last probably 18 months I've really been interested in leadership and management, and learning tools and ways to grow in that space. But I particularly like to learn about myself and how to improve myself and then helping other people improve themselves as well.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:00

Where have you seen that really... What's an example of where you've seen that, really recently, that like, "If only I could do more of that."?

Bree Hunter 09:10

Funny because I've also been listening to a video coaching series. I find my favorite part of the day is not busy working, getting things done, but it's the interaction that I have with people. And I can easily stop and spend a fair bit of time just learning about them, and learning from them and seeing where they're at. Somewhat taking conversations off track of work, and really finding more about who they are and learning from their experiences and also asking them sort of questions that might point out things that they hadn't thought of before I realized. And it's a shame that I can't... I'm very aware and trying to be time efficient with what I do. So I only have so much time that I can take out to have those conversations.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:01

That's super interesting then. One, that you have already recognized that. But I think that one of the things that, as coaches, that we look for, just to give you a glimpse behind the scenes, we're looking for where are the anomalies. And one of the places that we find anomalies a lot of the time is, where are those places within your current work that you keep gravitating towards, but don't necessarily have enough time for it. It feels like you perpetually don't have enough time for. So that's in my mind, as you say that, that's one of the things I hone in on and want to know more because that is likely where we're finding those anomalies, as I'm explaining what I'm doing for coaching, I guess, at the same time here. So tell me more about that then, where do you find out of those types of interactions that you are adding value to someone else's world too, where you're getting either feedback, or thank yous, or things like that with those types of interactions where you get to learn about them and ask them questions, as you said, but you're sort of taking conversations off track, and it's not a normal part of your job per se?

Bree Hunter 11:14

I guess, sort of more the coaching style. I've talked a lot about in management courses these days. Pulling more information out and asking them like you're doing to me the questions that they might have in the back of their mind but haven't had to answer before when helping clarify things for them. And I don't get to, like, I often deal with members of the public. And so I don't always get to do that with them because I might be trying to negotiate a particular issue or something that they're not happy with. So I often use this strength of mine to build a rapport with them quickly, to let them know that I understand their issues. And I also realize that often people just want to voice their opinion, get something off their chest. So I guess I sort of use coaching techniques in that space.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:06

It sounds like you're thinking a few different times. What's a recent example where you've done that?

Bree Hunter 12:12

I manage fire and reserves and managing and mitigating fire, which is in the urban interface. So often we're cutting down trees, or slashing vegetation next to people's houses. So they get upset. So I go out and say, "You know, this is what's happening. And we have to... they might be planting trees on council land, and we need to remove them." So getting them, you know, I've mentioned, how long have you lived here, sort of getting a picture of their connection to the property then explaining the changes in our policy and why now all of a sudden we have to remove the vegetation, saying that, "You know, I completely understand if this was happening next to my harm." But then coming back to the facts of why it's really important that we need to do this. So I guess a bit of education, which often the public aren't aware of, you know, the effects as to why we're doing particular things. And I guess just coming to an agreement and getting them to see my point of view, as well as the land manager, and there's liability issues. And it's concerning for us. And I'm faced to deal with this situation, I don't want to have to do it, but it's for their own safety.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:29

So this is super interesting. That one set of examples uses every single one of the strengths themes. So if we break this apart, for just a second here, and we look at that example where you've got to go talk to, it sounds like, you know, a property owner or somebody who's utilizing the piece of property or whatever else it is, and they're planting trees, or whatever else is going on, you having that conversation. First of all, you're asking the types of questions other people don't ask. And I think that partially comes from your desire to learn. But I think that also comes from maybe even more so your tendency to want to individualize and really understand kind of the uniqueness. And then what has a tendency to happen is it sounds like you are leveraging that information that you accumulate through your desire to learn and your tendency to individualize. And then you also have this desire in some ways, or you can't help but do it even if desire is the wrong word, to have a higher degree of ability to bring things back together for harmony. And interestingly enough, like, I can, probably anybody can tell within 10 minutes of talking to you that you're generally a positive person. So I can see a lot of the positivity pieces. We call the positivity and a few other strengths, we call them umbrella strengths because they have a tendency to just go over the top of whatever else that you're doing. And it has a tendency to be difficult to separate it out, whether you want to or not, it's just going to kind of be there working, amplifying other things in the background. But does that make sense how that one example that you gave me really is actually pulling from all five of these different areas? It's not really just any one or two of these.

Bree Hunter 15:25

Yeah, no, that's really interesting. It was good to go through that exercise.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:30

Have you ever thought about it in that way before?

Bree Hunter 15:32

No, I haven't. And that really makes it quite clear. Now, that's great.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:37

What is clear to you now versus before?

Bree Hunter 15:41

I guess, stepping through the process that I have when I speak to landowners about these issues. And again, giving it that framework, which I often have trouble articulating, highlights each one of those steps, picks up one of those strengths. And so I'm really just stepping through those strengths and bringing it all together at the end to create a positive, harmonious outcome.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:09

What you'll find, or at least I think you'll find based on my experience in working with other people that have similar strengths to yours or this type of strengths combination, is that you'll probably flourish in areas where you get to be proactive, versus reactive. And here's what I mean by that. And there's a couple other words we could use to describe it, maybe even better. When you are faced with a continuous sort of problems that are coming from a negative standpoint, if that's all you're doing all day, that's going to feel really, really draining on you. Because both your restorative nature and your harmony nature, going to want to pull it back to harmony or want to restore those situations. And if that's what you're doing all day long, where you are perpetually out of harmony, then that is going to, it's going to feel really, really like it takes a lot of energy, and it's going to feel very, very, well, I think draining is the right word.

Bree Hunter 17:15

I think that explains it perfectly. And that's why I started in my current role, because it's all very reactive, and it is draining. I don't get that time to be strategic or positive, pushing things forward in a positive light. And I think that's what I really enjoyed about the role I'm interviewing for, is I was so energized by, you know, planning something positive for the community to utilize in the future. And that was really energizing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:44

Yeah,. So I think just to give you a little bit of validation that the more that you can align yourself with those types of roles, and organizations that are putting you in that more proactive standpoint where you get to, proactive and productive standpoint, where you get to work more on, "Hey, this is already good. But we need to make this even better." Or, "We need to take the situation, which is generally more on the positive side. And we need to move this agenda forward." Those are going to be better fits, better alignment for what you need, and better play to your strengths. So I think one thing that if you haven't already got it written down someplace capturing that you definitely need to be on more of the proactive side, or the more positive, making it better side is going to be something that is a must within your next role. If you don't get to spend the majority of your time there, it's gonna feel like it does now or worse.

Bree Hunter 18:44

Yeah. Now, that's really good point. And that's what surprised me about the strengths tests with the think it was learner. I never had the confidence, I guess your experience around strategic planning. And I thought it was something that, you know, I wasn't going to be very good at. But I think this is where that comes through. Being strategic is just focusing on those things to improve, which is often in my current role. I get frustrated because I see all these things there that I want to improve but I just don't get the time. It's not the focus of the job. And therefore I often feel like I'm not achieving things or I'm letting the team down because I'm not able to improve those things.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:29

Yes. So it feels almost like you're perpetually losing.

Bree Hunter 19:36

Yes. Even though others don't say that or think that. I really internalize that. Yeah. Cool.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:45

So I think that there's probably areas where we could dive much further but I wanted to save a little bit of time. So we could talk about how to leverage some of these things in the interview. But I think that the more that you can ask yourself those types of situations, like, in my past roles where have I found those small tidbits that I am gravitating towards? Or where have I found the small tidbits of enjoyment or the things that I'm particularly great at? And then break those apart and see which strengths are kind of coordinated with that, then you'll begin to get more answers about what really is going to be right for you within that next role too, whether it's the one you're interviewing for or another one.

Bree Hunter 20:28

Okay. Yeah, that's good advice.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:31

So when you think of interviewing then, to shift gears now, where do you find you're having the most struggle and thinking about this idea of communicating your strengths? Or getting across your strengths and interview? Help me understand the desire there first.

Bree Hunter 20:48

I don't know if they'll actually or they're not likely to ask the question, what do you feel your strengths are? Because the company-based questions. So I've got to be really conscious of knowing my strengths and throwing them into examples that I answer in the interview. So if it's problem-solving question, then talking them through the example, but being conscious of where you particularly highlight and say, "Because one of my strengths is such and such and such. Clearly, I have the ability to do this very well. And this is where that came through." I guess it's more in relation to that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:31

I have a couple of, if that's the case, then I have a couple of ideas for you in terms of things that I can teach you fairly quickly that might be really useful to you immediately this afternoon. One of the things that I find is that when you communicate that "I enjoy", or, "I love something", people automatically assume that you are good at it. That's our tendency and a bit of our human nature. So they don't necessarily always think about it in those terms. But that's the association they get along with it or the feeling that they get as well. They don't necessarily in their brain say, "Well, she loves that. So she must be good at that." That's not how the self talk works, necessarily. But that is one of the things that we find over lots of years of testing this stuff out, and knowing some of the psychology behind it, too. So knowing that, you can leverage that immediately in your next interview. So if they ask, you know, you were talking about like a problem-solving question, right? So you probably know a little bit about since you work there, too, like what types of questions, is that going to be like a behavioral style question where they say, "Tell me about a time when you had to solve a problem." Or are they going to say, "Hey, if you have to solve this problem, what are you going to do in this situation?" Which do you think more of those might show?

Bree Hunter 22:56

The behavioral. Yeah, so you give an example and talk yourself through the task scenario.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:03

Okay, perfect. So if that's the case, and they say, "Hey, tell me about a time where you had to solve the problem that popped up on short notice, and you were successful with it at the end?" So just that type of question. So instead of saying, "One of my strengths is problem-solving." A different way that you can go about that is be able to say, "Well, let me tell you about the time in my last role where I had this particular problem. And I gotta tell you that one of my favorite things about this piece of my previous role was AB and C." In this case, it might be "getting to interact with people in a way that I got to understand their problem. And I got to understand really what they need. And then piece together a solution that was really individualized to them. And I found that every single time I got the opportunity to do that, they were actually pretty happy. Like, we went from a situation where they were, quite frankly, not excited at the at the beginning." And you'll want to use specific times or specific examples, "You know, I was talking to Bob about the tree. And Bob was telling me that, you know, really, after I asked the question, like, "How long have you lived here? When did you plant the tree?" And he was telling me all this situation, and I learned that Bob didn't realize that he couldn't plant the tree there. And if I would have..." I'm just making this up on the fly but "If I would have gone down the road a little bit further, and just started telling Bob that he can't plant the tree there without asking all of this to try and understand, then it would have been a terrible situation. And quite frankly, Bob was already irritated and I probably would have made him further irritated. But I love that opportunity to be able to understand what's important to the people and where they're coming from. And every single time I look at that as an opportunity to be able to learn more about it, and then figure out how we can get what we both need. And after I asked Bob what that was, we were able to talk about it. And we figured out a solution. And he was actually going to move the tree back five feet. And that worked out really, really well in the end. But I find every time I get the opportunity to have those types of interactions with people, and take a situation that would otherwise be bad, and really recognize where they're coming from, those are the things that I do very, very well, but also, they're the times where I enjoy it the most. So one of the reasons that I'm excited about this particular role is because I perceive that I get to do more of that." Does that make sense in terms of example for how to go through that, but then you relate it to the needs of the other role? And then you also relate it to your particular strengths, not saying that these are my strengths, but these are the things that I enjoy the most. And here's how I'm actually using them.

Bree Hunter 26:07

Now, that was really good. And I was actually able to, while you were speaking, think about how I actually using my strengths, I find were the needs of landowners and the council profs and finally compromised that to disburse. But I think I'll leverage that. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:29

That is fantastic. So that's one very easily transferable way to talk about your strengths and give people the impression of what your strengths are, but also, at the same time, being able to relate it into their world because you're like literally showing them like, "Hey, here's the element that I perceive is going to be helpful to you." And putting that as a portion of your answer too. So that you're spelling it out for them, but at the same time, you're not tooting your own horn in a way that feels false.

Bree Hunter 27:02

Good advice, Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:04

Well, I'm glad that it is helpful. How else can I be helpful to you?

Bree Hunter 27:09

I guess how... I feel we sort of touched on a little bit. Yeah, my current role, I feel like I've been battling with just trying to improve my weaknesses. And I guess that's what I found really awakening with doing the StrengthsFinder is, "No, these are actually strengths, which can be perceived as weaknesses in your current role." And I guess that's where, you know, that's your whole thing, your values, or your strengths don't align with what you're doing. But how do you balance using and harnessing your strengths but also, you've got weaknesses, and you're going to have to utilize your weaknesses, time to time? Like, how much do you focus on improving those weaknesses?

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:56

Yeah, I think that the more time you can spend actually trying to align yourself with your strengths and trying to spend more of your time there, we find that that is going to take you further faster, for nearly any goal that you have inside or outside of your career, whether it is other areas of life, whatever else, it's just going to get you further faster and got a lot of data and evidence to support that, versus spending really any kind of time at all, focusing on bringing up your weaknesses. Unless it is to figure out how you're going to give him some thought for how you're going to balance that out in one way or another. Maybe that is, "I'm great at this on the team. And there's this other person that was great at the other thing. So maybe we can share some of the workload." Or even something of that kind of strategic thought. Or, in my case, I mean, I do a lot of that on our own individual team. Because quite frankly, I'm bad at a lot of things based on my strengths. And that's okay. But that type of strategic thought is useful around it versus me spending tons and tons and tons of time focused on things that I will probably never be good at. And I don't want to confuse that with skills. So strengths are different skills.

Bree Hunter 29:13

I guess that's what I've been utilizing in my own team, probably the last 12 months, is recognizing what I'm not as good at which others are. And doing that same thing delegating those tasks to those people who enjoy doing those things more, and they're better at it, which gives you time to focus more on the other things. And I guess one thing about this job I'm interviewing for to be a real shift because I won't be managing a team. I'll only be working on my own projects, but again, pulling those other people in as experts to help. That might require me to utilize some of those shadow strengths a bit more because I'm relying on myself to get it done.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:59

Yeah. I see what you mean. So, prior to, I think that's a great... The interviews a great opportunity to find out more about that. Maybe it turns out, it's really not a good fit. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. But I think if I'm in your situation, I'd rather know before accepting it, versus after accepting it. But I think that great opportunity to, since you know some of those things about yourself, to ask for the areas that are of highest priority for you, and ask and try and understand at a deeper level, versus a lot of interviews if you don't ask, then it's going to gloss over it because they don't necessarily know what's important to you.

Bree Hunter 30:41

Yes. And I guess this job I'm going for, it's about improving things for the community. And I would just have to accept that it's not for particular individuals, and you're not going to make everyone happy in the community. So some people might not like what you're doing, and whether I'd be comfortable with that, or that just frustrates me long term.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:04

Yeah, that would be interesting. I definitely would say a good opportunity for you to learn more about that, and maybe even go out and talk to some of the community prior to, if they offer you the role, or if you decide to even grant the role or whatever, like, do that as a little bit of an experiment and try and feel out whether that is something that's empowering to you or frustrating to you about some of the issues that you would actually be working on. And that would be a good way to kind of validate that, "Hey, is this going to be lifted me up type of thing, or drag me down, type of thing?"

Bree Hunter 31:36

Yeah, cool. Now, that's really helpful. And even if it's just a stepping stone, a different job to develop other skills, or learn new skills to use time or something, take those skills and the whole package and try something else, or might lead to something else. That kind of feeling.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:01

Hey, if you love this story where we talk through and walk you through step by step how someone got to more meaningful work, then you'll absolutely love our audiobook– Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. I even got to narrate it, which was so fun. And something that I really enjoyed doing and will definitely do for future books as well. But it also contains firsthand accounts from career changers on how they made the move to more meaningful work, just like we include on the podcast here. And actually, it's been called the best audiobook experience ever by some reviewers. You can find those reviews, and the book itself on Audible, Amazon, or any other place where books are sold. Seriously, just pause this right now and go over to Amazon or Audible or wherever you want and download it. You can be reading it and started on your career change in literally seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:56

Now, here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week right here on Happen to Your Career.

Speaker 3 33:01

But that goes back to, "If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got." And so by taking this kind of like incremental safe approach to career change, and like just career nudges, was not yielding me the vision of engaged work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:21

Why does making a career change feel risky to so many people? I mean, I get it, if you're in an organization where the pay is great, or the benefits are awesome, or you have the flexibility that you want to continue to have, or maybe even the people are absolutely wonderful, and you're afraid of losing all of that. But here's the thing, even if you're not really happy with the job, and not really happy with the situation, what goes through so many of our heads is, "Is it worth taking the risk on a new career and possibly losing all the good parts?" But have you ever considered why it feels risky to you? Now, I would argue two things. One, that after doing this many, many years, not just the podcast, but helping 1000s of people through career change, we don't typically see that people are losing all the good parts. We see that that rarely ever happens. And instead, I would argue that the far larger risk is the risk of doing nothing and staying for more years of your life in a situation that's no longer good for you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:28

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Laura Parker 00:01

I just noticed it really wasn't paying to my strengths, it was taking up a lot of mental energy because I was having to re-adjust actually some of my baseline values to a certain extent, and it was exhausting.

Introduction 00:20

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:45

One of the things that we've noticed behind the scenes here at HTYC is that so many people go through this same cycle again and again. They try a bunch of traditional job search methods, and then they get a role, then they don't see lasting results. Usually, they start out really excited about their new role, and then at some point, start realizing that something's off. Sometimes the role or company doesn't match their values. Sometimes the role doesn't match their strengths. There's a billion different things that they realize that they haven't considered when they get into that new role.

Laura Parker 01:22

The response back from the business was, "Well, you need to tell us what you want to do if it's not this." And my issue was, I know about all the jobs that exist. I don't know what future jobs people might be thinking about creating. So I was struggling. I didn't think I wanted to do any of the jobs that I sort of saw existed, the people I interacted with regularly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:44

That's Laura Parker. She used to work for a global law firm for 12 years. And then she made a change to this technology company two years ago. It didn't take her long for her to realize that she needed to make another change. And that's where she found this podcast. But hold on, I'm getting ahead of her story here, we need to jump back first and see why she needed to leave that law firm in the first place.

Laura Parker 02:05

Before joining this technology company, I had spent about 12 years working predominantly for one global law firm, and I had a variety of roles, I had the opportunity to go to Hong Kong with them for a couple of years. But I knew after I got back from Hong Kong, which was probably about four years ago now, that I was going to need a new environment, a new working, a new role. I knew I wanted to lead professional services, anyone who works in professional services will probably understand where I'm coming from. But partnerships are their very own special working environments. And for me, they have some frustrations after being in that sector for 12 years. For example, it's quite hard to get partners to make decisions. They will call it a collaborative environment. But it's quite difficult because typically no one person has leadership. So you can end up sort of analysis paralysis by analysis type situation. And after being in that type of environment, trying to create change for that period of time, I knew that I had to move on to really stretch myself and work in a different environment that was more empowering. There were lots of specifics as to what I thought I wanted to do in a new job, I wanted to move to a smaller, more nimble company, more agile. I was interested in trying to move into technology just because I thought, for no particular scientific reason, I just thought it would be a good thing to move to in today's world. I wanted to get a bit more back on the frontline of sales, which I haven't been working in partnerships, you don't really sell in the way that you do when you're selling a product. So I wanted to get back on the frontline and sales. So I had quite a lot of criteria that I was looking for when I made the move. But essentially, I just knew I needed to be in a different, more empowering environment. But it took me a long time, I was probably looking for another job for probably about two years, actually, before I found this one. It was very hard to move industries. I didn't know any other recruiters beyond the legal and professional services environment. It was quite a hard piece of work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:12

So you worked for around two years to make that change, which was coincidentally also about two years ago. And then, you did all this work, and all this effort made the change, and then somewhere along the way found that you wanted to make another shift. Tell me about that.

Laura Parker 04:35

My experience in the law firms have been looking after or managing the largest clients. So most recently, it was investment bank clients. Most of them were worth about between 1 and $10 million to the law firm. And when I was offered the role here I was offered the opportunity to manage and upsell to the largest customers at the time in the EMEA region. What happened was, though that by the time I'd done my notice period which in the UK, you know, for senior people, it's typically around three months. By the time I'd worked my three-month notice period at the law firm when I joined here, the team that I was meant to join looking after the largest customers no longer existed, they made a decision to disband it. So my role ended up being looking after hundreds of customers, you know, I've had nearly 150 at one point and trying to sell to those customers. And that after probably about 12 months, I just noticed, it really wasn't paying to my strengths. It was taking up a lot of mental energy because I was having to re-adjust, actually some of my baseline values to a certain extent, and it was exhausting. And I just thought this is not what I want to be doing. As I said, I was a bit frustrated to find myself in that position so soon after making a big career shift. But that was where I was, and I really wanted to own it and do something to improve my situation, but that I owned,

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:02

I think that's a place where a lot of people find themselves. And I'm a little biased because we run a company where people find us when they want to make career changes. But often, when we get to interact with a variety of people around the world, they are in a similar position to what you experienced where you decided, "Okay, this is not working" and that working with the global law firm, and in that industry, that area, wasn't working for all of these different reasons. It wasn't the right type of collaboration, etc. And then you did all of this work, all this effort, which is pretty awesome, to make a change, knowing that you needed a few different pieces. And then you got to the new role, which again, kudos to you for doing something about it and owning it, as you said, and then you realize that there were some other pieces that you maybe hadn't necessarily considered, like, I heard you say something about, you know, some of my baseline values weren't adding up in the way that I wanted them to. So what would be an example of that?

Laura Parker 07:09

The main example that comes to mind is when you've got targets, and you've got a large customer base to try and sell to, to reach those targets, it feels very transactional in nature. And that is not what I had spent 12 years doing beforehand. My strengths, and I guess my values, aligned to really building relationships for the long term, bringing value to people, understanding what they value, and then figuring out how I can bring that to their table. And I just didn't have the opportunity to do that when I had to try and keep in touch with 150 different customers, and try and tell to them, it was just very transactional. And that, it meant I was turning up on phone calls without... I was used to knowing everything that went on in the customers I had before, probably more than the partners. And that wasn't the case here. I was sort of having to be dropped in without having done research, without having had the time to sit down and talk to people, without really potentially ever having met people before on the customer side, that was probably the prime example of where I thought this just isn't sitting well with how I want to operate. It's just that the job. It wasn't, you know, there were plenty of people out there that will love that sort of moving fast pace, moving from customer to customer, but it just didn't fit well with me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:22

Well, then it sounds like for you, for you to get the most out of your role, and work, you need to have a continuous relationship, for lack of a better phrase, and that continuous collaboration, and that know what's going on. And that is much more fulfilling for you, I'm guessing, shot in the dark, than the parachuting in and making the sale.

Laura Parker 08:45

Yes. Absolutely. I love the wind of a sale. I do love getting those signatures on the dotted line but I want to do it because we found a solution that really works for that customer. And because we're going to help that customer's business and we're going to help our stakeholders look good, feel good, do their job better. And for me, that just means I prefer to spend more time understanding what that looks like for as many people as I can.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:10

Very cool. That's amazing that you know that about yourself. So my question then becomes, at what point did you decide, "Okay, you know, I did all this work, I now recognize that I need to make a different shift in one way or another" what transpired to have you say that, "Okay, now's the time."?

Laura Parker 09:30

I mean, I knew it probably after about nine months. We're very quarterly target-driven business. So I'm thinking in quarters. How many quarters I miss my target and why I was missing my target. So after about three quarters, I was thinking, it had been a really steep learning curve, and I completely underestimated that but I've done learning curves in the past, I have moved industries, most jobs I've had have moved me from industry to industry, but this was a really steep learning curve. So I found that quite difficult. But by then the fact that I wasn't paying to my strengths. So I was probably about nine months in, and I did have conversations with my manager. I mean, I think, the manager does play a role in these conversations. And if you've got a great one, then you really need to leverage them. So I was being open. But the response back from the business was, "Well, you need to tell us what you want to do if it's not this." And my issue was, I know about all the jobs that exist, I don't know what future jobs people might be thinking about creating. So I was struggling. I didn't think I wanted to do any of the jobs that I sort of saw existed, the people I interacted with regularly. I was struggling to think, "Well, what's the new job that I might do?" And I started talking to people, but actually, then I got put onto your podcast by a colleague. And that sort of set me on a fantastic path.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:51

Well, I'm so glad that your colleagues set you in the direction of our podcasts because it turns out very well in the end. But I'm curious, when you started down that direction after you found the podcast, what happened next?

Laura Parker 11:06

I listened to a few episodes of the podcast. And then I think it was literally at the end of one of the podcasts, I think you say, "You know, you can email me if you have any questions." And I just thought how, or I argued this email thing ago, let's see what really happens. And you replied. And I was like, "Wow, this really exists." And then it all happened quite quickly. I had an initial call, I can't remember who it was, sorry. But he was asking some great questions about my situation and what I thought I wanted to do. And then that sort of got me on to the career change bootcamp program. And I just thought, you know, it was quite a lot of money upfront, but I thought I had been, for me, damaging careers situations in my 20s. And my dad had happened to me twice before, and I've managed to get out of them. And I promised myself, I'd never let that happen again, because I know how damaging is it takes a long time to build up your confidence when being shaken. You know, you can lose your confidence very quickly. And then it takes a lot longer to build that backup. And I really didn't... I really wanted to try and nip this in the bud this time. My competence was struggling after that sort of nine-month period I mentioned. So I couldn't believe that I was in this situation. But I thought I just need to really do something quite, drastic the wrong word, but what I wanted to do was have something that would do something and own something that had longevity. And that's what I've loved about the program is that I know I've got access to these resources forever. And the coaching sessions have been amazing. And they've really helped me understand things about myself that I hadn't been able to piece together before. But even so, notwithstanding that, just having access to the resources and the worksheets has really helped me create an environment that is feel sustainable. They all happen quite quickly. Once I had that initial conversation, I thought, "No, I am going to put my money where my mouth is. I'm going to do this program. And I'm going to make it work so that I don't keep finding myself in this." You know, I'm in my early 40s now, so that's why I kind of couldn't believe that 20 years on, I'm back in a position I remember being in many years ago.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:11

So share with us what, at this point, has happened? Because as you said, for you it has moved rather quickly. But what are you getting to do right now? Because you're in a state of transition, right?

Laura Parker 13:25

Yes. I kicked off the career change bootcamp and was quite religious about that. Set up my coaching sessions, did all the pre-work, and I blocked the timeout, you know, make the time to do it all. So that was all sort of following the process. At the same time, what I had decided to own as well was start talking to other people around the business here to find out and quite a few people here have changed roles, like significantly change from department to department. And I started a couple of people in the London office had done that. So I started talking to them about how they have done that. And the common theme was, being clear with your manager that you want to move, but also going out to the business and finding out what's going on and bits that you don't know about, parts of business you don't know about so that you can actually come up with some options. So that's what I did. I started getting in touch with senior people, not so senior people, people in departments that I thought I might want to work in. We're not very big in London here, you know, there's only about 14 of us now. So I was contacting people in our San Francisco, Melbourne, New York offices. And they were people who were either shifted roles quite significant, and I wanted to find out how they've done that. All were people ever say who were in departments that I thought maybe I'd be interested in working in, or there were all just quite senior people that have a broad scope of what's going on. They see more broadly what's going on than I was so I could get their take as to what they thought the challenges in the business were, went some extra effort would be valued. And I had all those conversations, I worked through what my questions were going to be that I was asking them. So I kept the same questions for everybody. So that allowed me to have some things coming out from all those conversations, so I could spot patterns and actually come up with a plan and not just have lots of random bits of information that didn't connect. So I got some really great intelligence from that. And it was through those conversations, plus all the career change bootcamp stuff to help me really understand what my strengths were, that allowed me to design, essentially, I've designed a job for myself here. I took that to... My manager was great that he supported me in getting that up to the leadership. And where I'm at now is leadership bought into it, they didn't want it to be a sort of all-in right now. So that's the transition point. Also, because I do carry a target, and we have investors who care about revenues. So I can appreciate that there's a bit of a business imperative for me trying to keep bringing in some of the revenue that I'm targeted for, but they have dropped my revenue target by 20% to allow me to spend 20% of my time on the new role sort of scoping it out. And then I know they've created a backfill for they're starting the process for having a backfill for me in the summer.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:20

Okay, so in that 20% and the role that you're shifting to, what do you get to do?

Laura Parker 16:26

So right now, a couple of key things have happened, I was an off-site in our San Francisco office for a group of people that are quite instrumental. So the role I scoped out does involve supporting our largest customers, you won't be surprised to hear, we have about 80 of those across the whole business. And we have a group of four people that are responsible for kind of delivering our product to that customer. Those four people had an off-site last week in San Francisco. So I went to that off-site and wouldn't have been able to contribute to that. And part of my role will be to start to understand, at the moment, all four of them is kind of treating that role a little bit differently, the delivering different things in different ways to the customers. So we're trying to bring some standardization to then allow people to flex where they need to, but where we're kind of starting from a bit more of a more standard approach. So that was one thing that I've kicked off. And then other than that, the main thing I'm doing for the rest of this quarter, and again, I've really been very clear as to how many days this quarter, the 20% means I can contribute, you know, that helps set expectations and help people not expect too much for me or me expect too much for myself. So with the time taken in San Francisco, I mapped out how many other days I had left. And I'm using those days to start connecting to other people with this new hat on to see what they think the value that I could bring in this new role and what challenges they've got that they'd like some extra resource and support around. So I'm on a bit of a fact-finding mission for that until the end of March, for sure, initially.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:05

How would you describe some of your strengths and how they fit into this new role? Which I understand this role doesn't have a name yet, and honestly, I think that it might be easier if a lot of different roles have a name and we've just focused on what they actually do and what your function is, and what results you deliver. But for you, you have done a great job identifying some of your strengths and what you want. But if you can share just a little bit about how you describe your strengths and where they fit into this role.

Laura Parker 18:34

So actually, I have all my coaching sessions with Jennifer and all the work that we did through Strengths Finder, the phrase that really resonated with me that she, of course, came up with, because she's fabulous, was the idea of being a conductor in an orchestra, that sort of was the best way that I could visualize it. And when I look back at where I've been most successful, it is getting people focused on an outcome, bringing the moving parts together, trying to streamline things, but enabling people at the same time. And that was the crux of what I thought I could bring. We're a fast-growing business, we'll probably double in size again this year, it's a really real opportunity to get people aligned in a direction, as I say, help enable people to focus on aspects they might not currently be able to so everyone's too busy rushing around. So that idea of being a conductor, just bringing people together like defining what we're trying to achieve, bringing people together getting people focused on delivering that, and empowering them to do that is pretty much where the main crux of the skills that I wanted to put to use.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:44

You know what is, I think just crazy. I see it all the time. I'm still blown away by it. The simple fact that when you, and I think you've done such a great job of this when you go through and get clear about what you want, all of a sudden that puts you in a much better position to be able to ask for exactly what you want. And the crazy part is that when you ask for what you want, then people are so much more likely to get what it is that they actually want. And I think you've done such a phenomenal job of that here. So kudos to you, first of all. And then second of all, I'm really curious about something that you said earlier. You had mentioned the idea of confidence, and you promising yourself that you're never going to let yourself go down the track where your confidence is depleted or diminished so much because you know just how long it takes to bounce back from that. And I would absolutely agree with that, you know, thinking about my own experiences and the experiences that we see all the time, we see sometimes people that have overstayed in their job for three or four years. And it just takes a significant period of time to be able to bounce back from that from a confidence standpoint. So I'm curious a little bit about what you meant by that. And how did you recognize before it got to that undoable point, that this is something that needed to change now, not later?

Laura Parker 21:16

Yeah. I mean, I recognized that quite quickly because of having been in the situation before, albeit it was a long time ago. But I recognized it quite quickly. It was a while before I figured out what to do about it. And I had a conversation with my manager that I wasn't enjoying where I was, I knew I wasn't delivering what they needed the role to deliver, that I was struggling with that, as I mentioned, for some of the sort of values way I operate. So I have had that conversation. What actually worked really well, that kind of also really helped move me down this path, apart from my colleagues here tell me about your podcast, was it struck me my managers in San Francisco, he's American and I'm British, and it really opened a doorway when I was much more, well, for me quite blunt about where I was at, you know, British people skirt around things, and we read tones. And I think I hadn't been blunt enough with him. So he hadn't appreciated where I was at. And I got to a point where I just had a really open conversation. So I don't want to be in this role. That helped a lot because at that point I was able to say, "But I'm doing something about it." By that point, I'd signed up to the bootcamp. So he really valued the fact that I was doing something about it, that he understood finally what I was really saying, rather than me being British, and not seeing it clearly enough for him. And from that point on, he was able to sort of connect me and open a few doors. But I knew my competence, I recognized it quickly. It's just a few things came into line, that meant I was able to do something about it, which was finding out about Happen To Your Career, having that open and frank conversation with my manager, and really getting to understand my strengths and then doing something about it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:01

What did you feel, like, was the hardest part of making this most recent change? And I know it's still not complete, however, it's well on its way, and it's going to happen in entirety, it sounds like, on some kind of timeframe here. But what did you feel like was most difficult for you?

Laura Parker 23:21

I think the most difficult but it's probably still to come, if I'm honest. I've done brand new roles before and I know that what makes them successful, one of the things that makes them successful, is sort of being given the authority to do the role. And this role is even more interesting. I've never designed a role, I've been the first person to do a role, but I've not actually created the role before. What will be interesting now is I don't have a job title, I have an idea about what team I'll be in but that is still to be fully decided. So, therefore, I don't know yet who my manager is going to be. I know my current manager feels very strongly and what I'm doing, he believes in his heart, I think that we do need someone doing what I propose. So he's backing me up at the moment, but I will have to move out of his team in the not too distant future. So what team do I go to? So I think the challenging bit is going to be getting that authority and being able to sort of start working, assuming that I have some of the authority to do what I think I want to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:25

When having been in a similar situation before too, when you're creating something new, there has a tendency to be ambiguity around it, and working through the ambiguity to still make sure that you are getting whatever results are either necessary or that you want to. And a lot of times even defining those things can be a challenge in the first place. So I totally can appreciate what you're saying in terms of some of the challenges are yet to come.

Laura Parker 24:57

Absolutely. I think so. Something I've learned about myself, not necessarily through the bootcamp, but I know I'm not, you know, one of my strengths is not planning to the nth degree, I am someone who tends to just get on with stuff and then I'll course correct as I need to. That's been okay so far. I've put some high-level goals in my proposal, I put some success criteria to what I think successful looks like. But I haven't got a completely defined roadmap as to how I'm going to get there. I'm fine with that because I know that the more I talk to people, the more I'll get that defined. But I'm also conscious that just for the business, I do need to show that there is some direction and I'm not just sort of off chatting to people without really putting anything together. So I'm alive to that as well.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:40

One of the things you said to me before we started here, and before we really got going was, I didn't expect to have so many concrete results so quickly. And I've got to ask you about that. Because here's the general response we usually have when we get the opportunity to work with people. Usually, people say something along the lines of, "Hey, it was way different than I expected, it was far more amazing than I expected. It also took longer than what I thought it was going to." And that's the general response. So I've got to ask you about this because it's different than what I hear on a normal site. And you've done such a great job helping to speed up the process for yourself and really grabbing and taking control of that. And quite honestly, that's usually where I see more results more quickly, as usually those people that take more action more quickly, quite frankly. But what do you feel, first of all, when you say that, what did you mean when you said, "I got more concrete results more quickly than I expected."?

Laura Parker 26:47

I was very surprised that how quickly I mean, I mentioned to you, I think before we started recording that my target, I have a call to the target and my target was dropped by 20% fairly easily, like within a couple of weeks of me putting this proposal out there. And that was a shock to me. Like I think, as I say, this business runs on targets. That's how we show our investors that we're progressing. And my boss is very target-focused. So once that happened, I was like, "Okay, this is really happening now." And that was a signal for me more than having a job title or knowing which bit the business I was going to sit in. Because we've had to readdress what we're delivering as a business because of that, that happened really quickly. I was thinking before we started that I wanted to show people that I'm just an ordinary person. And this is just sort of happened to me. And it's not an extraordinary, I didn't want people to feel this was an extraordinary thing. So I've been trying to think what was in my control that facilitated that. Because some things you can't control, like, you can't control who the manager is, you can't control whether they have the right outlook to support you or whether they care. But when I think about what actually progressed, definitely doing the bootcamp helped. And, you know, obviously, I would recommend people do your bootcamp. But I think what it showed the company here was that I was serious. And I actually came with some pretty decent value adding information when I had that proposal, like, I'd been through some good thought processes about myself as to how I got to where I got to. So that was valuable, I think, and you know, people can own that. And the other thing that really shifted was me having a very frank conversation with my manager, which I highlighted already. For me, I was at the point where I just thought I would just rather get this out in the open. If it causes massive issues, then I'll have to deal with that. But I just couldn't. I had to let him know where I was really at. So I would encourage people as as far as they feel possible, just be really open with where you're at. But try and do that with a plan or some thinking as to what it could look like if it was different.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:52

So that's really interesting. And it sounds like a big portion of what moved to this along for you so quickly, was being able to come to the table at a different level of preparedness, and having thought through a lot of these things, then what might otherwise have happened. And it sounds like there's a lot of contributors to that. Part of it was you taking control of the process. Part of it was getting to work with our team. And part of it was some of the other steps that you took throughout the process too. But I just want to say first of all, congratulations, because I know, you know, going and doing that and taking that level of control can absolutely be difficult, and doing that in such a short time period. I think it shows that almost anybody really can do this if you're focused on the pieces that you can influence and you can control which I think was another factor that you alluded to as well. So really nice job.

Laura Parker 29:52

Yeah, absolutely. As I said, there were things that were within my control. There are things that, you know, having a great manager, having a fast goes company where, you know, I'm in a fast growth company where movement is quite common. That's not in everyone's control, either. But when I think about being open and being honest, and being frank and then taking a bit of ownership over the process of what the future could look like, that is within our control, I think.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:18

Everybody has the ability to influence that. I love it. Well, I so appreciate the opportunity for us to sit front row and see some of these changes, and you put in trust in us to be able to assist with that. That's amazing. And I really appreciate you taking the time, not just we, before we hit record, we were actually looking at up trying to figure out, you know, how many months has actually been. Well, it turns out that was just back in September where you started to really double down on making this type of change. So it's really only been, four or five months?

Laura Parker 30:56

Yeah, probably more four months, because it just took us a while to get those schedules with time differences. But yeah, definitely by Christmas, I sort of knew that things will know on the cards to change.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:07

Well, great job going from a listener of the podcast into getting the results that you were looking for. I think that that's absolutely amazing. And thank you for taking the time and making the time and I only have one more question for you. For people that find themselves in that situation where you were, maybe they had made a change or two before and recognizing that, you know, something is amiss– values or otherwise. What advice would you give them when they're at that point and trying to decide, "Should I make a change? Should I make another change?" And if so, what does that look like? What advice would you give them?

Laura Parker 31:42

My advice when I have given this before is do not stay in that negative environment for any longer than you absolutely need to, it's so harmful, and it takes such a long time to get back up to being the best version of yourself. And when I say don't stay in it, I mean, look at what you can control and start working on those pieces. A lot of it you can't control but there are bits you can. And that's where you need to focus your efforts.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:16

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address– scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like, and the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:08

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 33:14

That's what I found really awakening with doing the StrengthsFinder is, "No, these are actually strengths which can be perceived as weaknesses in your current role."

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:26

We get questions every week about assessments, particularly the Clifton Strengths Finder assessment. Is it accurate? Will it tell me what type of career I should focus on? How do I use it outside of my work? All good questions. However, we thought it would be better to show you how people can use strengths, what they are, how they work, and even incorporate them into things, like, interviews, and everything else. And we also thought it would be best if we showed you this real-time.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:56

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Paul Stockhoff 00:01

Do you even want to be at this place? Or is this just a job for you? If it's just a job, that's fine, but you're probably going to want a new one relatively quickly.

Introduction 00:17

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:42

When you're making a career transition, how will you recognize what is actually a great fit for you? We get many questions from Happeners all over the world, which we love, but I've never actually had anyone ask me that question. And in many ways, it is the question. The simple answer is, well, unless you've done some certain work, you probably won't. We've had so many clients that have had the same story over and over again. They take many months to define what they want, they experiment to validate that that's actually what they want in the real world. And then miraculously, it seems to appear out of nowhere. Here's what actually happens. The opportunities were there the whole time. But if you don't know what to look for, the same opportunity that might already be there just passes you by two ships in the night. And you never realized that it was so close to you.

Paul Stockhoff 01:38

I needed the initial, like, boost forward in just starting a career change. It wasn't the technical aspects. It was the "what do you want" aspect of it. And the deeper level of understanding what that was. I think everyone has the shortlist of, "I need to make this amount of money. I want a 401k. I need these benefits." Cool. That's really low-level stuff. What do you want?

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:05

That's Paul Stockhoff. Paul is a product and furniture designer, which is as cool of a career as it sounds like. But that doesn't mean every furniture design job is a great one. In fact, Paul had a previous job where he knew day one that he didn't want to stay. But he stuck with it because he felt like he would be bailing if he left too soon. And he thought he could figure out a way to make it better. Spoiler alert, it didn't get any better. Now if we fast forward to the end of Paul's career change story, you would see that his friend reached out to him. And that resulted in a job offer that was the perfect fit. But it's nowhere near as simple as it sounds. When Paul knew his job was not working out, he began doing all the things, updating his resume, reaching out to his network, applying to jobs, all the things that he thought he had to do to find a job, but nothing worked. So he decided to set a deadline for himself. If he didn't have a new job by the beginning of the year, he would reach out for help. And that's where we got to meet him because when the beginning of January came and went with no great job prospects in sight, he reached out to us. Working alongside a coach, Paul was able to define the type of team and people that he wanted to work with. With the types of problems he wanted to solve, and even how he wanted to use his strengths. He took the time to really think about what he needed and wanted in this next iteration of his career. And when that friend reached out, and he learned about the role, he recognized it as the phenomenal fit that it was. So let's go back to that question. Get that question in mind again, that question being, how will you recognize what is actually a great fit for you? Here's my conversation with Paul. I want you to hear exactly how he made it possible to recognize his fit when it came along.

Paul Stockhoff 03:56

I have a background in architecture, I went to architecture school, I always kind of knew I wanted to be in the related field of it. But very early in my graduate program, I knew I didn't want to be an architect. It's a cool process, I had mad respect for everyone who is a licensed architect, but it's just never what I wanted to do. I always loved the physical building of things and really the detailing of that. And that set me on this really amazing path of getting to figure out all the details of everything and not the huge concepts at a building scale. So I ended up narrowing down to kind of furniture and all the interior pieces of a building. So down to the exact poke that we're going to use, that's the stuff I'm choosing and picking. So that was I kind of always floated in architecture and next to it and allowed me to understand it and had to kind of figure out where I could go with that. And about that time, the job I had always wanted, post-grad school, they'd opened up a facility in Colorado. That's like, perfect. Everything is aligned. The place I always wanted to go, which they were back East has opened this Colorado facility, I get to use my full education. They do the coolest, weirdest stuff. This is exactly what I want. I applied. Got a job. And that was first day, I was like, "I've made a terrible decision." Remember just going, they've presented well. And this is not where I want to be. Maybe it's a bad first day, maybe they're just really swamped and gave like, thousand, well, it could be this, it could be that, like, gave too much benefit of doubt. And I think it was, in that point, people were always like, "How long do you think you'll be at this placement?" Going in I was like, "Oh, I want to be there at least five years." And then by like, the end of the month is like, one year, like, how fast can I get out of this? There was just like, I have the traditional HR onboarding, which was fine, made sense. But then it was just like, I didn't have any jobs lined up. There was no, "here's who your lead is." And I remember sitting in my office for about three hours by myself. And I was just like, I don't even know who to go to, to ask like, "What do I do?" Like you've hired me, but like, what project am I on? And the person who had met with me was in meetings all day, was very clearly I was not a priority. And for where that company has ended up, not a surprise. And just, there was no, everyone stayed in their office. It was like no one was excited that there was a new person, and come to find out that company had kind of purchased or kind of consumed an old company that had gone bankrupt. And that had not been made extremely clear. And it was like, "Oh, you're one of the new people. We used to do it this way. You use this other software. We don't like that. That's what the New Hampshire group does." And I was just like...

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:16

"You're not from around here, are you?"

Paul Stockhoff 07:19

Yeah. And I'm like, "Oh, god, okay." And it was just like, okay, I can navigate that. But it's just clearly, like, it didn't matter. You could have been a rock star, you could have just been anyone. And it just, no one was going to be happy. And like, most things started with this as a problem, not how are we going to solve it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:41

So that's interesting. What I'm hearing from you is that this was not just an organizational misfit and a cultural misfit compared to what you were looking for, and probably what many people are looking for. But also on top of that, it sounded like there was a very clear values difference. I just heard you mentioned, you know when people are coming to the meetings, we're talking about what are the problems as opposed to here's the problems, how are we going to solve them. And just in understanding more about what you're looking for, that seems to be the polar opposite of the way you value interacting.

Paul Stockhoff 08:20

Totally. And as I kind of got through the first week, I had realized I had interviewed mostly with the East Coast team, not the group out in Colorado, which had kind of been this consumed company. In back East, they were about solving problems. They were this really tight-knit group family of people. That was just not the case in the Colorado facility. And it became very clear that there was kind of this East Coast-West Coast situation. And I had oddly ended up being someone in the West Coast office that aligned with the East Coast team, which was not helpful, and made me stick out like a sore thumb. So this was going on, it was starting to be like, "Alright, this is happening. I don't know what I want to do." And it started just kind of questioning everything, like, "Do I even want to be in this industry? Do I like this? This just seems rough. Everyone's fighting. Like there's fighting within this group. There's fighting within the construction industry, it's always this finger-pointing game." And that was kind of the start of, "Okay, I have this background. I like my background. I feel like one of the things I love doing is just problem-solving." I'm like, "Cool, I kinda know this." And then it became the search of like, "Where can I problem solve? Everyone needs that." And then it was just the like, write resumes, applied jobs, searching everything. And it was this weird feeling of like, I want to do good work. I want to, like, solve problems for people and I just want to do a good job. I felt like I was in this position of I just want, like, I'll do anything. And I think that's when... that was probably in hindsight when I just like your... It was just being kind of desperate. And it was so unfocused that I think, I don't know if that had just come across, but it was also as working with this group of like, I didn't know what my strengths were yet, all I could say is I'm great at problem-solving. Great, everyone else is listening, you're not going to come across as unique. And kind of go into this process. And work is just, I'm just taking a beating. And it's the Sunday scaries. It's, you don't want to go to work on Monday. And luckily, I have a partner who loves her job. And it was just like, polar opposite of where I was. But I knew that these places existed, which was this like hopeful thing, I'm just okay, I know people actually like going to work. And I've had jobs that I was fine with. But I could see her really loving her job. And there was this situation where I was talking with someone and we've come up with this, kind of, we had our own scale of how we would rank jobs. And one was where we were and then 10 was like perfect. And we would rank all these job listings and stuff. And like, we were seeing a whole bunch of fives. And we're just like, "God, there's not finding it." And this is going on. And we're getting closer to, like, November's kind of been here, I've been there a year, and going this is really not going well. And to the point of just as blowing out my health, I was not showing up as a good person, because I was just consumed with like, "I need to get out of this. Work sucks", which just, it was painful. No matter what I would do, it was just never going to be enough. And on top of it was just, there was a culture of work weekends, work late, all the stereotypical bad things about an office life that you hear people struggle with. And I was stuck in it too. And I was stuck setting a boundary with it. And slowly started taking some of those steps of, like, I did my hours, that's the best I can do, this is not creeping into my weekend. And at that point, I had a couple interviews, but just complete lowball offers of like, yeah, I can go back to where I started. And like drop health insurance and all this stuff. And like, maybe worth it from a mental health standpoint, but I'm gonna just be starting the search all over again. And at that point, I gotten really frustrated one day at work. And I was just like, if I'm going to have my time wasted, and just made to feel really terrible, I'm gonna at least, I'm going to figure out how to get out of this. And I remember literally searching job changed podcasts on my phone. And it was like in the Spotify app. And that's how I found you guys. Started listening to it I was like, "Okay, that seems reasonable. That person sounded happy." And I think it was probably one of the other interviews with someone that seems reasonable. Next day, listen to a little bit more. And kind of start this like Monday morning routine. And I know the new episode will drop. And I'll listen to it. It was just like, it started getting my brain to like unstick and be like, "Well, did you think about this? Or did you think about that." And I think that was this really slow on ramp for me to be like, "Oh, there's a different way of doing this." And it was all stuff that had never been presented before. And coming from this architecture background, there's this really clear path. And I wasn't following that path. I wasn't in a firm. And also, no one really goes over career stuff at any point. And I was realizing I had to go like learn this. The advice from others was either a generation old, or eyes with a bunch of architects that were on there kind of their own path because that was kind of my tribe, or people that were just doing completely different things and they had their own system of getting jobs.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:25

Yeah. So you realize that someplace, well, you realize day one, that this is not going to be the right fit. As you started realizing that there might be a different way to do career change or a different way to find and identify work that's more meaningful to you, what caused you to feel like you could start to move forward in a way that was, let's call it less desperate?

Paul Stockhoff 14:51

I think what started that was once I actually got into coaching, because it was, I hit this point of I was applying to jobs, I had gotten a couple interviews, and there was also the send the applications in any way here anything for three months. And it was always this game of, you would look at the institution or the company and they'd be like, sometimes it just, that's how long they take. And I was kind of running out the clock on some of those. But I think what it was, was just, the desperation stopped when we started having the conversations of, "It's gonna get worse if you just bail, and you're gonna put on this other stress of unknown, and you don't know what you want." And it was that kind of clear statement of like, so you're just redoing it again, like you're not improving the situation. And luckily, where I was, it was providing a comfortable enough financial position that was just like, so you're gonna give that up to be less stressed, which like reasonable, but you're gonna do it at a huge financial cost, do you want to put that burden on top of this situation? Because you least know what you have right now. You know, you don't want it. But you know what it is, and start getting that under control. Get that into, "this is how many hours you're contractually obligated to work", do that and stop. And it was starting to rain some of that in, I would say that was one of the harder points of just getting it to kind of calm down. And when I first started working with Ben, it caught me off guard, he was just like, "Your job this weekend is to do nothing, just don't do anything, just actually take a weekend off. Don't think about this. Don't think about work, just settle." In that, that was really hard. Because it was just, there was that push of, well if I work through it this weekend, I can figure it out. And I'll get out of this position. And traditionally, I was really used to just slam the gas and go. And I had to learn not to do that and just like back off. So there were multiple weekends of, "what did you do this weekend?" Well, "No, you weren't supposed to do that. You were supposed to be off." And then that started opening up a lot more of the mental space of being able to define what I want it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:26

So this is really interesting and little bit of context behind the scenes. The reason that we might do something like that with our clients is because we find that especially like in your case, Paul, what had worked for you in the past, and part of what hadn't made you successful in the past, had to sort of be unlearned, in some ways, so that you can begin changing behavior now that you had a different set of goals. And that's part of exactly what was going on here. So even though, I mean, it sounds unreasonable and illogical. But we're, you know, humans are not logical beings, that like, "Hey, I'm really, like, I'm gonna decide to do nothing over the weekend. And I literally can't do it in some ways." That doesn't make any sense. But that's what we have a tendency to do as human beings. So here's a question for you on that. Going through that, what did you see when you started to do more of that sort of to focus elsewhere beyond just like solving the problem, which is something you do very, very well and love to do, what did that do for you? What did that not do for you? What came from that?

Paul Stockhoff 18:42

I think the big thing was it got the current job to be up. It got put in its box of like, that's work back and live there. I did my hours, great done. So that gave me a lot of working. It started to give some working space. I think that started becoming a lot of other balance in just a lot of other places in life of just having time to do all the other little life stuff and also have fun. And like that was this thing that had gotten cut really early. I had to realize. Cut out the fun. In hindsight, I was just like, of course, I did that because it was just this, like, push through it. That's the first thing that you can cut is having those fun moments in life. And they were the thing I was really needing to kind of navigate some of this. So that just started this whole reworking of evaluation of everything of like, "Oh, let's look at everything here." So like it was career stuff. It was, "How I would engage with others. Was there stuff I needed to look at personally?" And it was a dive for a minute of just like first and pull everything out and just look at everything and really see. And that started this, like, "How did I even get into this design architecture field? Is this really what I want? Did we like these choices?" And there's a moment of time I was like, "Oh, I'm 18 again." I felt like I just come out of high school and everyone's like, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" And it's like, "I don't know." But it was not scary anymore. It was like, "Oh, I have a decision. And I get to drive it now." And that became really, that started to become exciting. And I also knew my current position was going to come to an end. It wasn't like, "Oh, when is it going to end?" I just knew is going to end and I can live with that. But I know there's progress. And I was also putting a dedicated time to solve it. It was the new priority in life. And I think that one of the very helpful things of coaching was, "Here is dedicated time. Every week, I got to do this." Like, I'm showing up for this. It's on my schedule. And I know, even if it's a gnarly week, there was an hour dedicated to it. And that, like when it was a rough week, I at least knew I had a conversation. Or, "Hey, are you ready?" I could leverage the, I want to show up and show that I did stuff. And it would be the "Hey, I need to be ready to have this conversation this afternoon. Did I do what I needed?" And I think that was the biggest thing for me, was just having consistent progress. I think everyone goes, "Oh, you have to have these cover letters and you need resume." I was okay with that kind of stuff. I needed the initial like boosts forward in just starting a career change. It wasn't the technical aspects. It was the, 'what do you want' aspects of it. And the deeper level of understanding what that was. I think everyone has the shortlist of like, "I need to make this amount of money. I want to 401k. I need these benefits." Cool. That's really low-level stuff. What do you want? And I think that weekly conversation was super helpful to get me to actually define that. And I think at one point, Ben literally was just like, "What do you want to do?" And I was just like, "Oh, I don't know." And then it started to be that conversation and working through that. And that was helpful with getting to work with you guys.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:35

Well, I appreciate those words. And also, I think that it's fun to see, I know, you talked about the progression. And you know, what keeps you moving forward earlier. But I think that's really fun. That's one of the most fun things for me is being able to see other people apply this stuff, and you've done a really nice job. And what I'm also curious about is, when you look back on this particular career change, what do you feel like were the hardest parts or most surprising parts to you?

Paul Stockhoff 23:08

I think the hardest parts were the moments of just kind of sit tight, and get comfortable with it. And that it was just going to take longer than I wanted. There was a pretty I wanted out. And I think really, finally just letting that go like it will get solved. It's going to take a sec, I think that was also just me rebinding a perspective back to normal of like, things aren't instantaneous. And I was in an environment of everything needed to be instantaneous. I think the surprising thing was just, it wasn't... Well, the goal was career change. It was also just like self-growth that I wasn't expecting along the way of just, it became this opportunity as an overall clearing house of just like, "Let's fix Paul's life. Let's make this better."

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:11

How do you did? I'm curious. So that is a thing that happens. That's actually one of my other favorite things that occurs from this. Even years later, I'll get so many emails and texts and stuff from people that have gone through this type of change, and then are applying it to all areas of their life in one way or another. But when you say that, well, how did that show up for you?

Paul Stockhoff 24:32

I think it was kind of looking at, it was this evaluation like where I was really focused on like this career change and like, "Hey, these things don't feel good. What else doesn't feel good in my life, and I haven't dealt with?" It was dealing with a death in the family that I hadn't resolved. It was, how do I be a better partner? How do I show up and do a better job there? How do I take care of myself better and constrain work to a normal work week and not let it bleed in? And I thought, I think this was the other thing but, I'm used to going... we're gonna solve this thing really aggressively once. And that is not how this worked at all. It was, "I'm gonna make a little progress over here. And we'll make a little progress over here." And it was much more of a snowballing of a lot of little things getting fixed, that eventually led to the like, "Oh, yeah, I have a new job now. Great." And that was a surprise. I think the other thing was getting comfortable asking for help. That was, I really didn't want to send the initial email of like, "I'm interested in getting career coaching." That felt like a failure to ask. I was like, "I should be able to do this." And I think starting with career coaching was just like, "Oh, that was okay to ask for help." That was a reasonable thing to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:00

When you think back, what made you feel like it was not okay that you couldn't do this or other things on your own?

Paul Stockhoff 26:10

I think it was the perspective of, I felt like I had enough experience and enough education in some places that I should be, to me, it was just another problem that could be solved. And therefore I should be able to do it. And we kind of talked about, I used to solve it by just throwing an effort at it. And I was throwing effort and just burning myself out. And it was like, it was the first time where I was really just running into a wall hard. And I wasn't getting around it. And I think previously, I was just going through it just through effort. And it was just total evaluation of like, "Oh, I gotta learn, because this isn't working everywhere." Everything is not working. And that took a sec to kind of get myself to okay to do it differently. And it was this big evaluation of like, "Oh, I got to figure this out." And that was scary. I had taken a system that kind of worked for 10 years, and go, "I gotta overhaul this." And that was uncomfortable. And also, realizing probably the system I had previously was not a good system.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:25

But I mean, there was a point in time where it served you to some degree, whether it was good or not like it definitely served you for a time period.

Paul Stockhoff 27:32

It was functional, yes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:33

It was functional, at least.

Paul Stockhoff 27:35

Yeah. And I think that was this kind of weird spot of like, "Oh, this worked. It got me here. I'm not happy with where I am." And it was just like, almost like scraping, like, just scrape everything and start over. And that was then I think that's when I started getting a little uncomfortable with it. Because it's just like, "Oh, this is a pretty heavy reset." And I got to start from zero and come back up. But I think once I got comfortable with that, I was just like, "Oh, this is good. This is positive." Like, I get a lot more choice now and I get this second round of this. And it was the exciting version of being 18 and what do you want to go do. I was like, "Oh, I have 10 years of doing this incorrectly. And I have experienced now to make this choice. This is great. Like, I have skills, I have valuable things. I have all this other stuff. I start to know who I am through my strengths. This is great." And it started to finally become this really positive thing, not this just this utter teardown and negative thing. It's like, cool, that was a chapter of my life. Go do the thing I really want now. And that was great.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:54

Let's kind of pull back here for a second and run me through kind of the bullet point version of what led up to you accepting this offer. So kind of run quickly through the career change process in terms of where you had decided, "Okay, I have some level of idea of what I'm looking for." And then how did that lead to accepted offer for this particular organization?

Paul Stockhoff 29:20

So the deal with this one was I ended up actually getting a message from someone who I've worked with previously. And I was like, "Yeah, interesting. The group seems great." And I was still kind of hesitant of like, "Do I really want to stay in this industry?" But also, like, maybe I just need a good group to work for and kind of made the decision to go up and have an interview. And I kind of framed it as the worst thing I do is I have a weekend up in Montana. That's the worst thing that happens. Flew up, had a great time, it was also the group I never sent a resume, never sent a cover letter. They had found all that stuff on their own, which was cool, gone up, had a conversation, kind of locations were a little bit of an issue, and worked out the details of that. And then went up for three weeks as an onboarding, or sorry, I skip this up, kind of finalized negotiations of the low level like, here's money, here's benefits stuff.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:26

Did you get what you wanted out of this? Like when you think about total compensation and beyond just the normal stuff, did you feel like you got what you wanted when you came out of it?

Paul Stockhoff 30:38

Yes. And I also felt like I knew where I could flex on stuff and where I couldn't. And just, it was nice to be able to have a frank conversation and be like, "This is the number, take it or leave it." And not in this aggressive, but it's just like, this is the number that makes this work for me. If you can't do it, I would love to work for you guys. But now's not the time. And I think that took away the like, the desperation wasn't there. It wasn't like, "Oh, I'll drop 10 grand." It's like, that's the number I need to make my life work and be functional. Like, why should I give on my personal life to make this deal work?

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:20

It's not a great fit. Like it begins from "Hey, this is an amazing fit" to realm of, "Hey, this is no longer a fit." And yeah, that's awesome.

Paul Stockhoff 31:32

I think that was just really important going in, and just going, what's the bottom end of this? And just knowing it ahead of time, and being confident in that number. With that negotiation, it was, when I met everyone, I was like, "Oh, this is the tribe. This is the group that I've been looking for, for a long time."

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:54

How did you know that this was the group? Was that because of some of the work that you had done previously to define that? Was it because of something else? Clearly, you knew, what caused you to know?

Paul Stockhoff 32:07

Everyone was super low-key, everyone was super mellow. Everyone was excited. There's also just a ton of common interest of like, and I think that was helpful, just I knew there would be conversations about other things besides work. And you would be excited about other people's lives outside of work and just like the dorky stuff I would be excited about, they were also excited about. And like it was important to them, too. And I was just like, "Oh, I've just been looking in the wrong place. This group does exist." And that was great. They also had a clear mission of what they wanted, and what they were trying to do. And they could articulate that. It wasn't just like, "Oh, yeah, we're trying to grow." It was, "We're doing it this way. This is what we want to do. This is where we think you might fit. Do you think that's something you're interested in? Do you see something different?" I think them being able to say what they want, made it automatically way better.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:17

That's interesting.

Paul Stockhoff 33:18

They weren't getting what they wanted. And now it gives me the spot of like, "Hey, this is what was kind of presented. I like that. How are we doing it?" Or, "Hey, this was the goal that was set. I think we can go about it this way."

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:34

Very cool. Your original message from a friend, was that an introduction to the company, was that a, "Hey, you should really check this organization out," or how did that message come about?

Paul Stockhoff 33:45

I think it was along the lines of, "Hey, I think we're hiring for this position. I think you'd be a good fit. Do you want to know more about it?" And I was like, "Yep." Like, I am interested in changing jobs.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:59

How many other places did you interview or interact with in total? Because I know you only accepted one. But how many roughly did you... January you had?

Paul Stockhoff 34:13

Yeah, I think I interviewed with three, had received two offers out of there than I think I did apply to like 25-30 jobs. And I think like the thing that I thought was hilarious was like their jobs I applied to in March, like was hearing back finally after I did accepted the new job of just like that system was so slow. So I don't know how those people actually hire people in a system that slow but.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:45

It's challenging. What advice would you give people in that position?

Paul Stockhoff 34:52

It's okay to start over. And it's okay to ask for help. And there's a group of people out there that are like dedicated to this kind of stuff like you would hire a plumber to fix the plumbing in your house, why would you not hire a professional to help kind of navigate some of this? And I think this realm is always kind of looked at as like, I think early on, people don't have a full understanding of the depth that it takes. I think that's the difference between a job and a career is I think a lot of people kind of understand what a job is, it's the thing you show up and it's that low-level expectation stuff of you get paid, here's the role, but not the career of like, "Hey, I need to work on my strengths. I really want this great team. I need this kind of flexibility to be really successful." And you need some guidance to figure that out. And reading like top five, here's the thing to boost your career is not going to solve it. And it's going to take time.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:59

Hey, if you love this story where we talk through and walk you through step by step how someone got to more meaningful work, then you'll absolutely love our audiobook– Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. I even got to narrate it, which was so fun. And something that I really enjoyed doing and will definitely do for future books as well. But it also contains firsthand accounts from career changers on how they made the move to more meaningful work, just like we include on the podcast here. And actually, it's been called the best audiobook experience ever by some reviewers. You can find those reviews, and the book itself on Audible, Amazon, or any other place where books are sold. Seriously, just pause this right now and go over to Amazon or Audible or wherever you want and download it. You can be reading it and started on your career change in literally seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:53

Now, here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week right here on Happen to Your Career.

Speaker 3 36:59

I just noticed it really wasn't playing to my strengths, it was taking up a lot of mental energy because I was having to re-adjust actually some of my baseline values to a certain extent, and it was exhausting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:13

One of the things that we've noticed behind the scenes here at HTYC is that so many people go through this same cycle again and again. They try a bunch of traditional job search methods. And then they get a role, then they don't see lasting results. Usually, they start out really excited about their new role, and then at some point, start realizing that something's off. Sometimes the role or company doesn't match their values. Sometimes the role doesn't match their strengths. There's a billion different things that they realize that they haven't considered when they get into that new role.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:51

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.