Stephanie Bilbrey 00:01

But that goes back to, "If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got." And so by taking this kind of like incremental safe approach to career change, and like just career nudges, was not yielding me the vision of engaged work

Introduction 00:25

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:49

Why does making a career change feel risky to so many people? I mean, I get it, if you're in an organization where the pay is great, or the benefits are awesome, or you have the flexibility that you want to continue to have, or maybe even the people are absolutely wonderful, and you're afraid of losing all of that. But here's the thing, even if you're not really happy with the job, and not really happy with the situation, what goes through so many of our heads is, "Is it worth taking the risk on a new career and possibly losing all the good parts?" But have you ever considered why it feels risky to you? Now, I would argue two things. One, that after doing this many, many years, not just the podcast, but helping thousands of people through career change, we don't typically see that people are losing all the good parts. We see that that rarely ever happens. And instead, I would argue that the far larger risk is the risk of doing nothing and staying for more years of your life in a situation that's no longer good for you.

Stephanie Bilbrey 01:57

I feel like I've been on autopilot. I've been checking boxes that my elders told me to check. So not really taking risks and listening to my heart. So that was my first kind of, like, "Somethings got to change."

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:12

That's Stephanie. She worked for years in community college environment and was plagued by an aversion to risk. I think it's pretty safe to say she was comfortably unhappy in her role. Now, once she finally saw the writing on the wall, she decided to face her fears and embrace the unknown to find her ideal role. Now, here's the really crazy thing. If we fast forward to what happened at the end of her change, she ended up surpassing her own expectations, by a longshot in terms of salary, and what was possible for her and her happiness in her career. Now, I want you to listen for that. But let's start out as Stephanie shares right here right now, what caused her to want to make a change in the first place.

Stephanie Bilbrey 02:58

I will say that I feel like I've been toying with my career for like, a decade. But looking at the work that I've been doing in the last couple of months or past year, previously in that last decade, I wasn't bringing intentionality and reflection and risk. I was taking this kind of like small hopeful fingers crossed kind of pivot. And but then questioning like, "Is this the right company? Is this the right role?" And then later, you know, that impostor syndrome comes up, "Is it me? Is that what's wrong?" I was actually listening to the podcast that you did with Dan Pink. And he said something to the effect of many people go their lives half asleep. Am I quoting that right? Something like that?

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:37

It was something similar to that. Yes.

Stephanie Bilbrey 03:39

So that actually really hit home with me because my husband and I, about seven years ago, had been toying with the idea of moving across the country, going out west, just appending our lives. And in my sign-off letter to the organization I was working on at the time, I feel like I've been on autopilot. I've been checking boxes that my elders told me to check. So not really taking risks and listening to my heart. So that was my first kind of like, "something's got to change." But I kind of leaned on moving across the country to be the, like, thing that offends everything and changes my career. And so needless to say, that was not the solution. I'm so glad that I did it. It was amazing. I've actually moved back to the East Coast since that initial. But you know, so I kind of, like, shook up the industry that I was working in, I started working in higher education, I started digging heavier into a different industry. But turns out that wasn't the solution either. So one of my favorite quotes is, "If you always do what you always did, you'll always get what you always got." So it became evident that I was ready to move back across the country to be closer to family. I said, "I have got to do right by my career." And so that foundational work began and then I did the bootcamp probably about six months after coaching.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:02

Wow. So this is, in any ways, as you said, been a journey, a decade in the making but especially in the last three years, is what I'm hearing. And now, you've been in a variety of different areas, you said, higher education, you've been in event planning, you've been even the marketing side of events, if I remember correctly, too, right? And also dipped into, like training and content development, those types of pieces as well. So you've been in a lot of areas, but it sounded like it wasn't as much about the area for you, it wasn't as much about, in some ways, the exact occupation for you, it's more about other pieces. So you know, as you were thinking about making this change, and you're really starting to take some steps, then, what were some of the pieces that at that point in time, you were feeling like you were either missing or wanting to change? What was the reason for the change?

Stephanie Bilbrey 06:01

You know, some people, they have a calling. And that's not the case for everyone. I've listened to enough of these podcasts, and I'm like, "It's okay if you don't have a calling. It's okay."

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:11

It's okay. It'll be there.

Stephanie Bilbrey 06:13

You know, I made peace with that. But it's like I had these fits and starts of, "I'm passionate about this." And then like a year or two or three later, I'm like, "I hate this", you know. I had a very specific moment where I was working, moving away toward event planning over several years, but I had to lean back into it when I moved across the country because I had to get a bridge job. And I remember this woman coming into the office and she was a client. It was a big conference convention center. And she came in devastated. The event is going on, and she said, "We agreed on white napkins. In ballroom A, there are white. In ballroom F, there are ivory." I mean, she looked like the world was ending. And I was like, "I can't do this anymore. This is not what I want." So where's that spark? And you know, marketing wasn't doing it for me. And I even started like a local networking organization for marketing because I was like, "This is it. This is cutting edge." And I was like, "Man, I really liked these people. But this isn't doing it for me either." So I think really what it comes down to is just, I wanted to feel engaged with the work I was doing, I wanted to be excited about it, even if it's not a calling.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:30

Calling is such an interesting word. I have had lots... I've had probably, I don't know, 500 or so conversations where people are like, "Hey, what you do is a calling." And I don't even know if I'd identify with that word to be quite honest. I can absolutely see how people get that. However, I really don't necessarily identify with that word. And I think that the reason I'm bringing that up is because it doesn't have to be something that you feel like it's a calling, but it does have to hit all the buttons per se for you to feel fulfilled, rewarded, engaged, and maybe it's doesn't even matter that much about what word you identify with, but where you're feeling something towards it emotionally, and that is something that is on an ongoing basis. And often, we've seen that that lines up with, not just the work itself, but also the environment and the type and way that you're making an impact, and you can see that impact. Because I think the story that you told is really interesting one because I have met some people in the world where they would describe that napkin situation. And they would say, "You know what, this event mattered so much to that person that I felt very compelled to make sure that they had the white napkins as opposed to the ivory ones because I can see how I'm helping." But it's also totally okay, that that's not how you want to help and you don't get that type of fulfillment from that. Everybody has to find their own brand of fulfillment and menu.

Stephanie Bilbrey 08:57

If there are any event planners out there, it is okay if that is very important to you. Absolutely. Just there it is simply a misalignment on my part.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:06

Yeah, there's nothing wrong with that, though. Like, I don't think that there's anything wrong with that. And that is, in many ways, the challenge in this journey. So as you started going through, and as you began trying to identify, "Hey, what would create a great next step for me? What would create an ideal next step for me?" What did that beginning of the journey really look like for you? Where did you start? How did that work for you?

Stephanie Bilbrey 09:27

I would say that it started with when I engaged a career coach. It very quickly became life coaching. The thing that rose to the top most quickly as my initial mountain to climb was my aversion to risk.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:48

In what way? When you say aversion to risk, I think there's lots of people that say that, but what does that mean for you?

Stephanie Bilbrey 09:53

I would say, like, primarily financial risk, never leaping from one job without having another one secured, those kinds of conventions. And then I just think fear of the unknown is a risk. And you know, a career change brings so many complicated emotions and I don't like that space very much. So much of that impostor syndrome. And what if I fail? That became very evident to me right away, that is your first area that you got to work on. Is this work is hard? You know, listen to the podcast, and knowing the challenge that lies ahead, you've got to kind of get into a discomfort zone.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:36

I think that when you say, get into a discomfort zone, that is...

Stephanie Bilbrey 10:42

Sounds terrible to describe?

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:44

It does sound kind of terrible. But why do you say that? Why was that such a big thing for you? What role did that play in this process? Can you think of a time where did you start getting outside your comfort zone beyond the risk?

Stephanie Bilbrey 10:58

Yeah, well, a couple of things. First of all, it just goes back to, "if you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got." And so by taking this kind of like incremental safe approach to career change, and like just career nudges was not yielding me the vision of engaged work. Note, I didn't say calling. So for me, I know this sounds strange because it sounds so nice. But meditation and reflection, going back to what we were previously talking about, getting deeper into my why. So much of the bootcamp work resonated with me, you know, because it was your first response, you need to go deeper, you need to ask yourself, "Is it three whys? Five whys?" I can't remember.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:44

There's a problem-solving methodology that has an exercise where it is five whys. And generally, five whys is deep enough. And it goes something along the lines of, and I think this is what you're alluding to Stephanie is, you're saying, "Well, okay, well, why am I at work? Well, because I need to earn money. But why do I need to?" Keep going to layer and layer and layer deeper. Or it's, "Hey, why do I feel that I want fulfillment?" And then going to the next level. "Well, because I feel like I'm missing something. Well, why do I feel like I'm missing something?" And just keep going layer and layer until you get to what's called the root cause. But now that our bass caught up, why was that so interesting for you?

Stephanie Bilbrey 12:23

Because that's really where the meat was, where my values were, where the answers were, you know, I'll give you an example. And I think this is your eight-day mini course. I love to the question, "If you had the opportunity to teach something, what would you teach?" And one of my answers was, I love branding. I love creating a whole world for a company and a look and a feel and a tone, especially, you know, a lot of ground communications, because that really is a major kind of pillar in my skills and my interests. But through asking why and digging deeper, I realized that there was more to that for me and that it was organizational culture, it was company branding, that I really was digging into and latching on to, that was a thread for me. So that led me down that path of, not only is culture important to me wherever my career goes, company culture and good work-life balance, you know, throw out those buzzwords. But I need to be in it. I need to help direct it in some way. Doesn't mean that like, I am the Director of Culture for company X. But it was through those kinds of exercises that I was able to pull out that thread. And if I hadn't been meditating, as part of that, creating that kind of, it doesn't sound uncomfortable when I say it because it's like meditating is really nice. But for me, and digging deeper, and taking time to myself, also, that's a whole other thing that I'm sure many career searchers can understand and empathize with is just like the time to do this and to justify nothing. You just sit here and you think, it can be really hard. So another way that I was adding disruption to my life, adding discomfort is taking on hard conversations at work that I would have normally run away from screaming. For example, I don't like interpersonal conflict. I don't know who does but I'm like, it's my kryptonite. But man, did it get me out of my comfort zone? Did it challenge me? Did it keep me on my toes? Does that directly relate to my career, you know, kind of work and the results that I got? No, but it got me in a better space to be broader in the way that I was thinking and just more welcoming of discomfort.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:45

That's really interesting. So one of the pieces and parts that I had picked up as you were going through making this change, just in tidbits of communication. I can't remember whether it's from a conversation or from an email, but it really is seemed like this was an inching along process for you, and not in a bad way at all, in a great way. And when I say an inching along process, it seems like each of these little pieces, like, taking the time, not just the meditation itself, but taking the time, the practice of taking the time to meditate and do something that normally wouldn't have or get outside your comfort zone with some of these conflict type conversations, each of these paved little tiny inch spaces to be able to get to the next step and the next inch. And that was really, really interesting to me because I think you did such a great job of going one inch at a time consistently, even though it probably didn't always feel that way.

Stephanie Bilbrey 15:41

It felt like 17,000 inches at the same time.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:47

So here's my question with that, then. When you were beginning to recognize some of these themes or threads that you mentioned earlier, and you started getting into the experimentation phase of the process, what we call the experimentation phase of the process, what did that look like for you?

Stephanie Bilbrey 16:04

It looked like one way was just reaching out to former colleagues, friends. One of the exercises that I loved within bootcamp was just getting feedback on your strengths from a variety of people. That was one way that I approached it. Another way was, honestly, dropping in words that really were resonating with me on LinkedIn, and seeing the web of connections that were there. So for me, culture was a word. So I would find individuals on LinkedIn, some of them were second and third weak ties, some of them were not. And then I just hit the phone hard trying to make those connections and asking good questions, 15-20 minutes, that's all you got. So trying to understand what made them successful in their career, what they love about what they're doing in culture. And I was talking to a lot of different people to just get as many perspectives about how one could interact with and be in support of culture.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:09

What are a couple of examples of those, like, different... I know, we have a tendency to say, "Hey, it's less important about the job title, because that's drastically different from the organization." But what were some of these people responsible for or doing? Or how were they interacting with culture? What's a couple of examples of that?

Stephanie Bilbrey 17:24

Yeah, absolutely. Training, organizational development, and change management. So those are kind of more like corporate buzzwords, their process certified, which sounds intimidating, but then I also went down that, like, "Do I need a certification route?" And some of them were internal communicators. So really responsible, obviously, those tend to be larger organizations that need that kind of role. And some of them were, I would say, more traditional kind of HR folks that took on more of the well-being, you know, well-being champion. Those kinds of things.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:54

Interesting. So that is such a span. And it can be. And I think that that's true for every time that at least we're interacting with people through a career change process, that they start to discover, like, this can be a big thing. Now, the other thing that we often see happen, and I don't know how much this did or didn't happen in your case, but when people go through, and they're having those types of conversations, or they're getting feedback in a new and different way, and getting an exposure in a new and different way, they're often getting realizations that help them to pinpoint where they might be interested in. So what did that look like for you? Did that happen for you? And how did that look?

Stephanie Bilbrey 18:33

Yes, it did happen for me. I would say what one area that resonated for me a lot was when I would talk to the internal communicators. And you know, it's funny. I mean, how many times have people said to you, "Scott, the writing was always on the wall, like, why didn't I see it?" Like, it was like, duh. But, you know, hindsight is 2020. But, you know, for so long in different organizations, you'd be in a situation where you would be at a table with your co-workers, and somebody would ask you, "Why do you like working here? Why do you work here?" And my co-workers would have some mission-based answer. You know, I worked in higher education. "I'm here for the students", and then it would get to me. And then I would...

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:12

"I'm here for the white napkins."

Stephanie Bilbrey 19:14

Oh, "Y'all, I'm here for you." I mean, other people would say that too. You know, I love my co-workers. But I worked in theater. Yes, the theaters, the art is so important. But I found myself saying, "I'm here for my co-workers before I'm here for the art, before I'm here for the students before I'm here for the mission-driven thing." So that was a huge realization for me. So then, kind of combining all of that together and realizing like that particular example internal communications, that's my customer is the co-workers.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:48

Okay, so that's such an interesting example, Stephanie, because I think there is so many different ways that that can go. First of all, you made a really great point that, often, when people go through this type of process and they're trying to clarify what makes an amazing next step for them, and even beyond that, and what great looks like, and you know that we often, if we're helping with that type of change, then we'll often help in the form of creating what the ideal career looks like and a profile of that, if you will. However, I think the great point that you made there is that so often it comes out on the other side where the writing has been there and now you can clear enough away to be able to pay attention to it in a way that simply wasn't possible before. And I think so many people go into this process thinking, "You know what, I'm going to discover something brand new. I'm going to be a beekeeper." Or, "I'm going to be a..." I don't know, insert your occupation here that is just absolutely polar one ad from whatever, you know, people have been doing. And that's so often not the case, it occasionally does happen. But so often, it's not the case. So great point. And then for you, my question becomes, as you were thinking about that writing on the wall piece, what caused you to begin to pay attention to it in a way that was helpful for you? And I'll preface that only to say that I think so often people feel like, "Hey, I'm saying I'm here for you. But I really feel like I don't actually have an answer, or I feel bad about my answer, or I feel like I shouldn't have that answer, even if it is true." Instead of saying, "You know what, this actually means something." And in your case, it really absolutely did mean something, meant everything in many different ways.

Stephanie Bilbrey 21:31

You know, one of the terms that you hear a lot, one of the phrases in bootcamp is, "What can you not stop doing?" And so for me, thinking about my co-workers, and not that the customer is not important, the customer is very, very, very important. But when your knee-jerk reaction when you look at a process, or communication, or anything is internal versus external, that was a light bulb for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:57

The other thing that I wanted to ask you because it's easy to sit here and say, okay, you know, if we skipped to the end of what the story looked like for you, you got not one but multiple job offers, you did a fantastic job negotiating with both of those job offers and speaking of those conflict conversations, you had some more conversations that were way outside your comfort zone. And you did a fantastic job with those. But aside from that, what would you say was the hardest part of making this type of career change? The type of career change where you're putting yourself in the way that you want to show up in the world first?

Stephanie Bilbrey 22:34

I would say that the hardest part for me was just taking risks in general. It's such an uncomfortable thing for me. But to that end, I moved across the country yet again, without a job. And it really was the right decision for me. But the work was really hard and sometimes a confidence killer. And so to be so drained, you know, and you're already trying to fight your fear. You know, like, "I don't know if I can call this person. I don't know if I can leave this job", in addition to just being kind of run ragged from the phone calls and trying to figure it out that I wasn't anticipating that drain and that challenge that uphill battle. I thought it was going to be ripping resumes apart, you know, like, "Oh, I'm embarrassed. Okay." It goes so much deeper than that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:29

What advice would you give to that person who's in that same place where they realize and recognize that the situation they're in is not where they want to be, and they know that there is something much better out there, but they're in that place where those fears are popping up. And that beginning stage is such a hard place to be to even committing to making this type of change and call it a career change. But really, it's a life change.

Stephanie Bilbrey 23:57

Yeah, I definitely would have told myself to start even sooner.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:03

Hold on. Why is that? I'm curious.

Stephanie Bilbrey 24:04

I don't regret my career trajectory at all. But to have looked back and known that so many years were not spent as engaged as I could have been, as happy as I could have been, just kind of miring through, that would be a motivator right there to tell, you know, 2011 Stephanie, "Hey, this kind of incremental safety net approach won't yield what your heart really wants." You know, that's like a big overarching. So it kind of fast forward a little bit and I have already learned a little bit of lessons. I would say the advice that I would have given myself is to research more to be as curious as possible. I tend to be a doer, not that I'm not a thinker. However, if given the opportunity, I rely more heavily on go implementation, press the start button. Knowing what I know now, creating more opportunities for research, more opportunities for curiosity, I think would have been really helpful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:10

That's interesting. Any other pieces of advice that you would give to those people who are just now thinking about this, or maybe in the midst of a career change? You've done a great job going all the way through. And I know that some of the things that you've learned through this process will probably help you for many, many years to come, not just now, in the immediate future. What did you say? You're 60 days into your role. You sit in a different place than two or three years ago. So anything else that you would encourage that person to think about as it relates to this process?

Stephanie Bilbrey 25:43

Well, first of all, it truly takes a village to change careers, in my opinion. I think there's this expectation that we put on ourselves that we can figure this out, that it's not rocket science, and it's my own personal journey. So it's just on me. And that is so not the case. Not only does it take a village of your immediate, you know, friends or family rely on some of those folks, as well, but it takes a village of like strangers, actually, you know, depending on the kind of research that you need to do and the connections that you want to make. You are like reaching out into the great unknown to say, "Hi, your LinkedIn profile story is fascinating to me. Do you have 15 minutes?" And that can be very uncomfortable. But some of those uncomfortable reach outs yielded such critical connections for me, and specifically, what I really latched on to and loved was make it easy for people to say yes, so I worked on that a lot. And the other, there was a podcast that you did– Jay Papasan. Yes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:45

Yeah. Jay is great.

Stephanie Bilbrey 26:47

That piece of advice that he gives about relationships are like bank accounts– you have to put in deposits before he can make withdrawals. It's actually this specific piece of advice that got the ball rolling to get me to the job, where I am right now. I took that. And I realized there was a specifically one day I said, "I need to make some deposits." And there was a former co-worker. And I reached out to her with no agenda whatsoever. And we had kind of like, kept in touch on social media, but I knew how connected she was on LinkedIn. And I said, "How was your holiday? How are your kids?" And the rest, I don't wanna say the rest is history. First of all, it's really trite. And the next two or three months were like, really painful and roller coaster. But it was literally that idea. And therefore that moment of sending that email that set the rest in motion.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:41

That's interesting. So you're saying that taking that idea of building relationships or giving to others without expectation as part of how I'm interpreting that and making those deposits if you will, then that is part of what led to this actual opportunity for you?

Stephanie Bilbrey 28:01

Yes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:01

Very cool. Love it. We see that so often. But I think that's also a really hard thing for so many of us. Because the thoughts that jump into our heads are like, "But I need a job", or, like, "Where do I do the thing that then gets me to the job offer?" Like, and it is, in many ways, going against those short-term benefits or short-term type of tactics that then allow to focus on long term. That's the big takeaway that I have more recently realized about this type of process and how we guide people through it, it requires long-term approaches to get to long-term solutions versus short-term approaches get to short-term solutions that you don't want to be in for very long job or otherwise,

Stephanie Bilbrey 28:46

Yes. And then, you know, just like totally on a granular level. The applicant tracking system, traditional way, applying resume and cover letter, is terrible. And also way less likely. And from what I've seen than the relationship pathway to not only a career change, but the actual job, it kind of does double duty in that way. Like I spent so much time on cover letters and resumes that went nowhere.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:20

Oh my goodness. Yes. I feel like you do seven hours a podcast on why not to do that. However, we'll make that into a series later on. Let me...

Stephanie Bilbrey 29:30

Even if you yielded some success. But overall, it is not what got me where I am right now.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:36

I think that it really depends on what your goal is. We've really toyed around with how to explain this in a way that makes sense, but it's hard to explain it in a soundbite. But if you think about it in terms of, if your goal is to get a job, maybe even a well-paying job as quickly as possible, then that means that going on job boards and looking at what is open right this second, and what people need and trying to match yourself into that, that is the best way to go. If that's your goal. However, if you have goals, much more likely you've described Stephanie, where you were looking for that fulfillment, you were looking for that calling, and you were looking for that thing that was missing in one way or another or multiple things that were missing, and that's really what you want, and that's a priority for you, it requires a completely different solution. It requires completely different tactics. It requires a completely different. So I think it really does depend on your goal. And you've done a really nice job taking steps that lead you towards what your goal actually was. One more thing I really wanted to ask you about, partially because we were just talking through it before we even really hit the record button here at the beginning of our conversation, but you did such a nice job working through multiple offers. And that was very uncomfortable for you. So first of all, what's not always obvious is the work that it takes to get to more than one offer. You know, when we talk about two or three or four offers on this podcast, I think it gets glossed over and people don't realize how much work. But what was your biggest takeaway in working through that type of situation before we end here?

Stephanie Bilbrey 31:13

I would say transparency and honesty were really, really helpful to call someone that, and I have to say that this particular human being was so lovely, and saw value in me that other interview situations had not... I couldn't feel that the way that I could feel this with this particular company, and individual. So hello makes it so much harder. But so than saying those kinds of things and saying, "I didn't envision that it would work out this way. And I was so genuinely excited for this opportunity. I hope we can stay in touch." Were helpful, I think, to kind of say there was a substantial amount of respect and excitement, but then a level of understanding as well, to help ease the blow.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:13

Hey, if you've been listening to our episodes here at Happen To Your Career and you want to make an intentional career change to much more meaningful work and have it neatly laid out into an organized framework, well, guess what, we actually have that available for you in the Happen To Your Career book. It's available on Amazon, Audible anywhere else where you get your books. You'll learn about the five hidden obstacles, stopping your career change, how to figure out what would truly make you happy with your career. And what brings you more happy more often. And more importantly, how to transition to a much more fulfilling career and life. You can find the book on Amazon, Audible anywhere where books are sold, by the way, people are particularly loving the audio book, which you can access right now in second.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:01

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up for you next week right here on Happen To Your Career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:08

Job search today is very different than it was 20 years ago. Recruiters and hiring managers are absolutely drowning in potential candidates today. So how do you convince them to give you a chance– a chance for an interview, a job, or even just the time of day? Well, it turns out, it's actually not about convincing the hiring manager or recruiter that you're the absolute best perfect fit for this job. That's not it. There's not just one secret Jedi mind trick that's going to make them choose you. So what is it then? What matters most when it comes to your job search? That evasive answer is what we break down in this episode of the Happen To Your Career podcast.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:52

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Bree Hunter 00:01

That's what I found really awakening with doing the StrengthsFinder is, "No, these are actually strengths which can be perceived as weaknesses in your current role."

Introduction 00:18

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:43

We get questions every week about assessments, particularly the Clifton Strengths Finder assessment. Is it accurate? Will it tell me what type of career I should focus on? How do I use it outside of my work? All good questions. However, we thought it would be better to show you how people can use strengths, what they are, how they work, and even incorporate them into things, like, interviews, and everything else. And we also thought it would be best if we showed you this real-time.

Bree Hunter 01:12

I don't get that time to be strategic or positive, pushing things forward in a positive light. And I think that's what I really enjoyed about the role I'm interviewing for is I was so energized by planning something positive for the community to utilize in the future.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:30

That's Bree Hunter from Tasmania. She's worked for the city of Hobart in a role that used to be great for her, but no longer fits what she wants. What you'll hear is us doing an actual recorded coaching session, where she had just taken the Clifton Strengths Finder assessment and is trying to figure out how she can use the results. You want to listen pretty close to this conversation because there's a pretty big surprise at the end. Here's our conversation and coaching session, take a listen as a fly on the wall.

Bree Hunter 02:00

So yeah, I really enjoyed the StrengthsFinder test. I found that really useful to sort of pull a few things together and things that you're kind of already feeling but haven't really been able to articulate or put into some sort of framework.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:17

Yeah. Very cool. And if I have this up here correctly, it looks like your strengths themes from Strength Finder were learner harmony, restorative, positivity, and individualization. Does that sound right?

Bree Hunter 02:31

That's right. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:32

Very cool. So then the other thing that I saw from the email that you sent a little bit earlier today, or let's see here, was that you're hoping to get a little bit better understanding of how you can actually leverage these. So now that you have the ability to articulate them a little bit differently, how do you actually use these things. And then it sounds like currently, you are, well, I mean, obviously, you got another job interview coming up here. But your past role or current role feels like it is not the right fit for several reasons, and you talked about workplace culture. And did you use the term busy work? Is that what it was?

Bree Hunter 03:14

I did. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:17

Okay.

Bree Hunter 03:18

It's a case of, I've been in this role for two and a half years now. And before that, I was still sort of connected to this role. And I loved it for a period of time. And it's just, I've changed and grown, I guess. So it's time to take on a new challenge. And I was acting in the role I'm applying for, although I'm interviewing for later today. And that's where I found it really energized me the thing that I was doing. And then having done the Strength Finder, it just backed up why those particular functions were energizing me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:56

What were some of those functions?

Bree Hunter 03:58

Working with a community. So it was project managing. The planning phase of new projects, and I was working on new mountain bike tracks. So I got to do all the community consultation, and the planning around that. And I really enjoyed getting feedback from the community and advocating for what they wanted. And also, within our work for city council, pulling people together within the council to get the project going, like, I don't hold claim to hold the expertise, I really rely on other people's expertise and getting the right people together to make something happen, and just sort of facilitating that process.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:41

Okay. All right. That makes sense. So let me ask you a few questions, then. And then I think I can help with a few of these things. First of all, just a clarifying question, the role that you're interviewing for, is that in the same organization, or is that a different organization?

Bree Hunter 05:01

It's the same organization. But at the moment, I'm in operations at like a depo sort of setting. And that role would be in the town office away from operations.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:14

Okay, very good. So let's see if we can leave a little bit of time in terms of working up to how you talk about strengths and interviews. Because different than how most people would think, very often, they find that many of us perceive that we're going to need to talk about them extensively and use like the right word so that it perfectly matches up to our strengths and everything. And I find that there's much easier, much more organic ways to be able to leverage your strengths in your interview. So let's see if we can leave a few minutes to talk about that towards the end. And then in the meantime, let's see if we can get to the bottom of some of these strengths and even understand them a little bit deeper so that we can figure out how to answer some of the other questions in terms of what is right for you. Is that fair?

Bree Hunter 06:03

Excellent. Okay.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:05

Cool. So along those lines then, you said it sounded like a lot of these when you read them do line up. Are there any in particular that you find don't match up for one reason or another? I guess that's question number one.

Bree Hunter 06:22

No, I think they all line up. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:26

Okay, great. What about, then out of these five that you have on this list, are there any that resonate with you more so than the others?

Bree Hunter 06:36

I would say, learner, restorative, and individualization.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:45

Okay, so tell me about each one of those. Let's start with individualization. So what about that really feels like, "Yeah, this is clearly high resonated or high priority."

Bree Hunter 06:59

Okay. It resonates because in my job I manage a team of people. And I really enjoy leading people. And I like resolving conflicts. I like carrying people together. You might not think through each other, but I can see they've got particular strengths, or weaknesses that counterbalance one another. And a lot of that comes from just my own experience working in small teams. What else? I think everyone's unique. I enjoy learning from other people's experiences and learning from that. And at the same time, I really enjoy having responsibility that I sort of have control for the end product and making sure that things are completed.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:52

Yeah, that makes sense. Those things particularly, I think, that everyone is unique. Those are things that somebody who can't help but individualize would say. That's very individualistic of you Bree. So what about the other two? I want to just understand just a little bit more, and then I've got a few questions that I want to help take us a little bit deeper on this.

Bree Hunter 08:19

Okay. As far as the learner, I'm just sort of skimming what it says makes you stand out. I love the learning. But as it's in there, which I thought was interesting, I actually enjoy the process of learning. Like, I might not retain all the information, but I love the activity of it. And particularly things I'm interested in, like, for the last probably 18 months I've really been interested in leadership and management, and learning tools and ways to grow in that space. But I particularly like to learn about myself and how to improve myself and then helping other people improve themselves as well.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:00

Where have you seen that really... What's an example of where you've seen that, really recently, that like, "If only I could do more of that."?

Bree Hunter 09:10

Funny because I've also been listening to a video coaching series. I find my favorite part of the day is not busy working, getting things done, but it's the interaction that I have with people. And I can easily stop and spend a fair bit of time just learning about them, and learning from them and seeing where they're at. Somewhat taking conversations off track of work, and really finding more about who they are and learning from their experiences and also asking them sort of questions that might point out things that they hadn't thought of before I realized. And it's a shame that I can't... I'm very aware and trying to be time efficient with what I do. So I only have so much time that I can take out to have those conversations.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:01

That's super interesting then. One, that you have already recognized that. But I think that one of the things that, as coaches, that we look for, just to give you a glimpse behind the scenes, we're looking for where are the anomalies. And one of the places that we find anomalies a lot of the time is, where are those places within your current work that you keep gravitating towards, but don't necessarily have enough time for it. It feels like you perpetually don't have enough time for. So that's in my mind, as you say that, that's one of the things I hone in on and want to know more because that is likely where we're finding those anomalies, as I'm explaining what I'm doing for coaching, I guess, at the same time here. So tell me more about that then, where do you find out of those types of interactions that you are adding value to someone else's world too, where you're getting either feedback, or thank yous, or things like that with those types of interactions where you get to learn about them and ask them questions, as you said, but you're sort of taking conversations off track, and it's not a normal part of your job per se?

Bree Hunter 11:14

I guess, sort of more the coaching style. I've talked a lot about in management courses these days. Pulling more information out and asking them like you're doing to me the questions that they might have in the back of their mind but haven't had to answer before when helping clarify things for them. And I don't get to, like, I often deal with members of the public. And so I don't always get to do that with them because I might be trying to negotiate a particular issue or something that they're not happy with. So I often use this strength of mine to build a rapport with them quickly, to let them know that I understand their issues. And I also realize that often people just want to voice their opinion, get something off their chest. So I guess I sort of use coaching techniques in that space.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:06

It sounds like you're thinking a few different times. What's a recent example where you've done that?

Bree Hunter 12:12

I manage fire and reserves and managing and mitigating fire, which is in the urban interface. So often we're cutting down trees, or slashing vegetation next to people's houses. So they get upset. So I go out and say, "You know, this is what's happening. And we have to... they might be planting trees on council land, and we need to remove them." So getting them, you know, I've mentioned, how long have you lived here, sort of getting a picture of their connection to the property then explaining the changes in our policy and why now all of a sudden we have to remove the vegetation, saying that, "You know, I completely understand if this was happening next to my harm." But then coming back to the facts of why it's really important that we need to do this. So I guess a bit of education, which often the public aren't aware of, you know, the effects as to why we're doing particular things. And I guess just coming to an agreement and getting them to see my point of view, as well as the land manager, and there's liability issues. And it's concerning for us. And I'm faced to deal with this situation, I don't want to have to do it, but it's for their own safety.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:29

So this is super interesting. That one set of examples uses every single one of the strengths themes. So if we break this apart, for just a second here, and we look at that example where you've got to go talk to, it sounds like, you know, a property owner or somebody who's utilizing the piece of property or whatever else it is, and they're planting trees, or whatever else is going on, you having that conversation. First of all, you're asking the types of questions other people don't ask. And I think that partially comes from your desire to learn. But I think that also comes from maybe even more so your tendency to want to individualize and really understand kind of the uniqueness. And then what has a tendency to happen is it sounds like you are leveraging that information that you accumulate through your desire to learn and your tendency to individualize. And then you also have this desire in some ways, or you can't help but do it even if desire is the wrong word, to have a higher degree of ability to bring things back together for harmony. And interestingly enough, like, I can, probably anybody can tell within 10 minutes of talking to you that you're generally a positive person. So I can see a lot of the positivity pieces. We call the positivity and a few other strengths, we call them umbrella strengths because they have a tendency to just go over the top of whatever else that you're doing. And it has a tendency to be difficult to separate it out, whether you want to or not, it's just going to kind of be there working, amplifying other things in the background. But does that make sense how that one example that you gave me really is actually pulling from all five of these different areas? It's not really just any one or two of these.

Bree Hunter 15:25

Yeah, no, that's really interesting. It was good to go through that exercise.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:30

Have you ever thought about it in that way before?

Bree Hunter 15:32

No, I haven't. And that really makes it quite clear. Now, that's great.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:37

What is clear to you now versus before?

Bree Hunter 15:41

I guess, stepping through the process that I have when I speak to landowners about these issues. And again, giving it that framework, which I often have trouble articulating, highlights each one of those steps, picks up one of those strengths. And so I'm really just stepping through those strengths and bringing it all together at the end to create a positive, harmonious outcome.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:09

What you'll find, or at least I think you'll find based on my experience in working with other people that have similar strengths to yours or this type of strengths combination, is that you'll probably flourish in areas where you get to be proactive, versus reactive. And here's what I mean by that. And there's a couple other words we could use to describe it, maybe even better. When you are faced with a continuous sort of problems that are coming from a negative standpoint, if that's all you're doing all day, that's going to feel really, really draining on you. Because both your restorative nature and your harmony nature, going to want to pull it back to harmony or want to restore those situations. And if that's what you're doing all day long, where you are perpetually out of harmony, then that is going to, it's going to feel really, really like it takes a lot of energy, and it's going to feel very, very, well, I think draining is the right word.

Bree Hunter 17:15

I think that explains it perfectly. And that's why I started in my current role, because it's all very reactive, and it is draining. I don't get that time to be strategic or positive, pushing things forward in a positive light. And I think that's what I really enjoyed about the role I'm interviewing for, is I was so energized by, you know, planning something positive for the community to utilize in the future. And that was really energizing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:44

Yeah,. So I think just to give you a little bit of validation that the more that you can align yourself with those types of roles, and organizations that are putting you in that more proactive standpoint where you get to, proactive and productive standpoint, where you get to work more on, "Hey, this is already good. But we need to make this even better." Or, "We need to take the situation, which is generally more on the positive side. And we need to move this agenda forward." Those are going to be better fits, better alignment for what you need, and better play to your strengths. So I think one thing that if you haven't already got it written down someplace capturing that you definitely need to be on more of the proactive side, or the more positive, making it better side is going to be something that is a must within your next role. If you don't get to spend the majority of your time there, it's gonna feel like it does now or worse.

Bree Hunter 18:44

Yeah. Now, that's really good point. And that's what surprised me about the strengths tests with the think it was learner. I never had the confidence, I guess your experience around strategic planning. And I thought it was something that, you know, I wasn't going to be very good at. But I think this is where that comes through. Being strategic is just focusing on those things to improve, which is often in my current role. I get frustrated because I see all these things there that I want to improve but I just don't get the time. It's not the focus of the job. And therefore I often feel like I'm not achieving things or I'm letting the team down because I'm not able to improve those things.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:29

Yes. So it feels almost like you're perpetually losing.

Bree Hunter 19:36

Yes. Even though others don't say that or think that. I really internalize that. Yeah. Cool.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:45

So I think that there's probably areas where we could dive much further but I wanted to save a little bit of time. So we could talk about how to leverage some of these things in the interview. But I think that the more that you can ask yourself those types of situations, like, in my past roles where have I found those small tidbits that I am gravitating towards? Or where have I found the small tidbits of enjoyment or the things that I'm particularly great at? And then break those apart and see which strengths are kind of coordinated with that, then you'll begin to get more answers about what really is going to be right for you within that next role too, whether it's the one you're interviewing for or another one.

Bree Hunter 20:28

Okay. Yeah, that's good advice.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:31

So when you think of interviewing then, to shift gears now, where do you find you're having the most struggle and thinking about this idea of communicating your strengths? Or getting across your strengths and interview? Help me understand the desire there first.

Bree Hunter 20:48

I don't know if they'll actually or they're not likely to ask the question, what do you feel your strengths are? Because the company-based questions. So I've got to be really conscious of knowing my strengths and throwing them into examples that I answer in the interview. So if it's problem-solving question, then talking them through the example, but being conscious of where you particularly highlight and say, "Because one of my strengths is such and such and such. Clearly, I have the ability to do this very well. And this is where that came through." I guess it's more in relation to that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:31

I have a couple of, if that's the case, then I have a couple of ideas for you in terms of things that I can teach you fairly quickly that might be really useful to you immediately this afternoon. One of the things that I find is that when you communicate that "I enjoy", or, "I love something", people automatically assume that you are good at it. That's our tendency and a bit of our human nature. So they don't necessarily always think about it in those terms. But that's the association they get along with it or the feeling that they get as well. They don't necessarily in their brain say, "Well, she loves that. So she must be good at that." That's not how the self talk works, necessarily. But that is one of the things that we find over lots of years of testing this stuff out, and knowing some of the psychology behind it, too. So knowing that, you can leverage that immediately in your next interview. So if they ask, you know, you were talking about like a problem-solving question, right? So you probably know a little bit about since you work there, too, like what types of questions, is that going to be like a behavioral style question where they say, "Tell me about a time when you had to solve a problem." Or are they going to say, "Hey, if you have to solve this problem, what are you going to do in this situation?" Which do you think more of those might show?

Bree Hunter 22:56

The behavioral. Yeah, so you give an example and talk yourself through the task scenario.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:03

Okay, perfect. So if that's the case, and they say, "Hey, tell me about a time where you had to solve the problem that popped up on short notice, and you were successful with it at the end?" So just that type of question. So instead of saying, "One of my strengths is problem-solving." A different way that you can go about that is be able to say, "Well, let me tell you about the time in my last role where I had this particular problem. And I gotta tell you that one of my favorite things about this piece of my previous role was AB and C." In this case, it might be "getting to interact with people in a way that I got to understand their problem. And I got to understand really what they need. And then piece together a solution that was really individualized to them. And I found that every single time I got the opportunity to do that, they were actually pretty happy. Like, we went from a situation where they were, quite frankly, not excited at the at the beginning." And you'll want to use specific times or specific examples, "You know, I was talking to Bob about the tree. And Bob was telling me that, you know, really, after I asked the question, like, "How long have you lived here? When did you plant the tree?" And he was telling me all this situation, and I learned that Bob didn't realize that he couldn't plant the tree there. And if I would have..." I'm just making this up on the fly but "If I would have gone down the road a little bit further, and just started telling Bob that he can't plant the tree there without asking all of this to try and understand, then it would have been a terrible situation. And quite frankly, Bob was already irritated and I probably would have made him further irritated. But I love that opportunity to be able to understand what's important to the people and where they're coming from. And every single time I look at that as an opportunity to be able to learn more about it, and then figure out how we can get what we both need. And after I asked Bob what that was, we were able to talk about it. And we figured out a solution. And he was actually going to move the tree back five feet. And that worked out really, really well in the end. But I find every time I get the opportunity to have those types of interactions with people, and take a situation that would otherwise be bad, and really recognize where they're coming from, those are the things that I do very, very well, but also, they're the times where I enjoy it the most. So one of the reasons that I'm excited about this particular role is because I perceive that I get to do more of that." Does that make sense in terms of example for how to go through that, but then you relate it to the needs of the other role? And then you also relate it to your particular strengths, not saying that these are my strengths, but these are the things that I enjoy the most. And here's how I'm actually using them.

Bree Hunter 26:07

Now, that was really good. And I was actually able to, while you were speaking, think about how I actually using my strengths, I find were the needs of landowners and the council profs and finally compromised that to disburse. But I think I'll leverage that. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:29

That is fantastic. So that's one very easily transferable way to talk about your strengths and give people the impression of what your strengths are, but also, at the same time, being able to relate it into their world because you're like literally showing them like, "Hey, here's the element that I perceive is going to be helpful to you." And putting that as a portion of your answer too. So that you're spelling it out for them, but at the same time, you're not tooting your own horn in a way that feels false.

Bree Hunter 27:02

Good advice, Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:04

Well, I'm glad that it is helpful. How else can I be helpful to you?

Bree Hunter 27:09

I guess how... I feel we sort of touched on a little bit. Yeah, my current role, I feel like I've been battling with just trying to improve my weaknesses. And I guess that's what I found really awakening with doing the StrengthsFinder is, "No, these are actually strengths, which can be perceived as weaknesses in your current role." And I guess that's where, you know, that's your whole thing, your values, or your strengths don't align with what you're doing. But how do you balance using and harnessing your strengths but also, you've got weaknesses, and you're going to have to utilize your weaknesses, time to time? Like, how much do you focus on improving those weaknesses?

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:56

Yeah, I think that the more time you can spend actually trying to align yourself with your strengths and trying to spend more of your time there, we find that that is going to take you further faster, for nearly any goal that you have inside or outside of your career, whether it is other areas of life, whatever else, it's just going to get you further faster and got a lot of data and evidence to support that, versus spending really any kind of time at all, focusing on bringing up your weaknesses. Unless it is to figure out how you're going to give him some thought for how you're going to balance that out in one way or another. Maybe that is, "I'm great at this on the team. And there's this other person that was great at the other thing. So maybe we can share some of the workload." Or even something of that kind of strategic thought. Or, in my case, I mean, I do a lot of that on our own individual team. Because quite frankly, I'm bad at a lot of things based on my strengths. And that's okay. But that type of strategic thought is useful around it versus me spending tons and tons and tons of time focused on things that I will probably never be good at. And I don't want to confuse that with skills. So strengths are different skills.

Bree Hunter 29:13

I guess that's what I've been utilizing in my own team, probably the last 12 months, is recognizing what I'm not as good at which others are. And doing that same thing delegating those tasks to those people who enjoy doing those things more, and they're better at it, which gives you time to focus more on the other things. And I guess one thing about this job I'm interviewing for to be a real shift because I won't be managing a team. I'll only be working on my own projects, but again, pulling those other people in as experts to help. That might require me to utilize some of those shadow strengths a bit more because I'm relying on myself to get it done.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:59

Yeah. I see what you mean. So, prior to, I think that's a great... The interviews a great opportunity to find out more about that. Maybe it turns out, it's really not a good fit. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. But I think if I'm in your situation, I'd rather know before accepting it, versus after accepting it. But I think that great opportunity to, since you know some of those things about yourself, to ask for the areas that are of highest priority for you, and ask and try and understand at a deeper level, versus a lot of interviews if you don't ask, then it's going to gloss over it because they don't necessarily know what's important to you.

Bree Hunter 30:41

Yes. And I guess this job I'm going for, it's about improving things for the community. And I would just have to accept that it's not for particular individuals, and you're not going to make everyone happy in the community. So some people might not like what you're doing, and whether I'd be comfortable with that, or that just frustrates me long term.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:04

Yeah, that would be interesting. I definitely would say a good opportunity for you to learn more about that, and maybe even go out and talk to some of the community prior to, if they offer you the role, or if you decide to even grant the role or whatever, like, do that as a little bit of an experiment and try and feel out whether that is something that's empowering to you or frustrating to you about some of the issues that you would actually be working on. And that would be a good way to kind of validate that, "Hey, is this going to be lifted me up type of thing, or drag me down, type of thing?"

Bree Hunter 31:36

Yeah, cool. Now, that's really helpful. And even if it's just a stepping stone, a different job to develop other skills, or learn new skills to use time or something, take those skills and the whole package and try something else, or might lead to something else. That kind of feeling.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:01

Hey, if you love this story where we talk through and walk you through step by step how someone got to more meaningful work, then you'll absolutely love our audiobook– Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. I even got to narrate it, which was so fun. And something that I really enjoyed doing and will definitely do for future books as well. But it also contains firsthand accounts from career changers on how they made the move to more meaningful work, just like we include on the podcast here. And actually, it's been called the best audiobook experience ever by some reviewers. You can find those reviews, and the book itself on Audible, Amazon, or any other place where books are sold. Seriously, just pause this right now and go over to Amazon or Audible or wherever you want and download it. You can be reading it and started on your career change in literally seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:56

Now, here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week right here on Happen to Your Career.

Speaker 3 33:01

But that goes back to, "If you always do what you always did, you always get what you always got." And so by taking this kind of like incremental safe approach to career change, and like just career nudges, was not yielding me the vision of engaged work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:21

Why does making a career change feel risky to so many people? I mean, I get it, if you're in an organization where the pay is great, or the benefits are awesome, or you have the flexibility that you want to continue to have, or maybe even the people are absolutely wonderful, and you're afraid of losing all of that. But here's the thing, even if you're not really happy with the job, and not really happy with the situation, what goes through so many of our heads is, "Is it worth taking the risk on a new career and possibly losing all the good parts?" But have you ever considered why it feels risky to you? Now, I would argue two things. One, that after doing this many, many years, not just the podcast, but helping 1000s of people through career change, we don't typically see that people are losing all the good parts. We see that that rarely ever happens. And instead, I would argue that the far larger risk is the risk of doing nothing and staying for more years of your life in a situation that's no longer good for you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:28

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Laura Parker 00:01

I just noticed it really wasn't paying to my strengths, it was taking up a lot of mental energy because I was having to re-adjust actually some of my baseline values to a certain extent, and it was exhausting.

Introduction 00:20

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:45

One of the things that we've noticed behind the scenes here at HTYC is that so many people go through this same cycle again and again. They try a bunch of traditional job search methods, and then they get a role, then they don't see lasting results. Usually, they start out really excited about their new role, and then at some point, start realizing that something's off. Sometimes the role or company doesn't match their values. Sometimes the role doesn't match their strengths. There's a billion different things that they realize that they haven't considered when they get into that new role.

Laura Parker 01:22

The response back from the business was, "Well, you need to tell us what you want to do if it's not this." And my issue was, I know about all the jobs that exist. I don't know what future jobs people might be thinking about creating. So I was struggling. I didn't think I wanted to do any of the jobs that I sort of saw existed, the people I interacted with regularly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:44

That's Laura Parker. She used to work for a global law firm for 12 years. And then she made a change to this technology company two years ago. It didn't take her long for her to realize that she needed to make another change. And that's where she found this podcast. But hold on, I'm getting ahead of her story here, we need to jump back first and see why she needed to leave that law firm in the first place.

Laura Parker 02:05

Before joining this technology company, I had spent about 12 years working predominantly for one global law firm, and I had a variety of roles, I had the opportunity to go to Hong Kong with them for a couple of years. But I knew after I got back from Hong Kong, which was probably about four years ago now, that I was going to need a new environment, a new working, a new role. I knew I wanted to lead professional services, anyone who works in professional services will probably understand where I'm coming from. But partnerships are their very own special working environments. And for me, they have some frustrations after being in that sector for 12 years. For example, it's quite hard to get partners to make decisions. They will call it a collaborative environment. But it's quite difficult because typically no one person has leadership. So you can end up sort of analysis paralysis by analysis type situation. And after being in that type of environment, trying to create change for that period of time, I knew that I had to move on to really stretch myself and work in a different environment that was more empowering. There were lots of specifics as to what I thought I wanted to do in a new job, I wanted to move to a smaller, more nimble company, more agile. I was interested in trying to move into technology just because I thought, for no particular scientific reason, I just thought it would be a good thing to move to in today's world. I wanted to get a bit more back on the frontline of sales, which I haven't been working in partnerships, you don't really sell in the way that you do when you're selling a product. So I wanted to get back on the frontline and sales. So I had quite a lot of criteria that I was looking for when I made the move. But essentially, I just knew I needed to be in a different, more empowering environment. But it took me a long time, I was probably looking for another job for probably about two years, actually, before I found this one. It was very hard to move industries. I didn't know any other recruiters beyond the legal and professional services environment. It was quite a hard piece of work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:12

So you worked for around two years to make that change, which was coincidentally also about two years ago. And then, you did all this work, and all this effort made the change, and then somewhere along the way found that you wanted to make another shift. Tell me about that.

Laura Parker 04:35

My experience in the law firms have been looking after or managing the largest clients. So most recently, it was investment bank clients. Most of them were worth about between 1 and $10 million to the law firm. And when I was offered the role here I was offered the opportunity to manage and upsell to the largest customers at the time in the EMEA region. What happened was, though that by the time I'd done my notice period which in the UK, you know, for senior people, it's typically around three months. By the time I'd worked my three-month notice period at the law firm when I joined here, the team that I was meant to join looking after the largest customers no longer existed, they made a decision to disband it. So my role ended up being looking after hundreds of customers, you know, I've had nearly 150 at one point and trying to sell to those customers. And that after probably about 12 months, I just noticed, it really wasn't paying to my strengths. It was taking up a lot of mental energy because I was having to re-adjust, actually some of my baseline values to a certain extent, and it was exhausting. And I just thought this is not what I want to be doing. As I said, I was a bit frustrated to find myself in that position so soon after making a big career shift. But that was where I was, and I really wanted to own it and do something to improve my situation, but that I owned,

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:02

I think that's a place where a lot of people find themselves. And I'm a little biased because we run a company where people find us when they want to make career changes. But often, when we get to interact with a variety of people around the world, they are in a similar position to what you experienced where you decided, "Okay, this is not working" and that working with the global law firm, and in that industry, that area, wasn't working for all of these different reasons. It wasn't the right type of collaboration, etc. And then you did all of this work, all this effort, which is pretty awesome, to make a change, knowing that you needed a few different pieces. And then you got to the new role, which again, kudos to you for doing something about it and owning it, as you said, and then you realize that there were some other pieces that you maybe hadn't necessarily considered, like, I heard you say something about, you know, some of my baseline values weren't adding up in the way that I wanted them to. So what would be an example of that?

Laura Parker 07:09

The main example that comes to mind is when you've got targets, and you've got a large customer base to try and sell to, to reach those targets, it feels very transactional in nature. And that is not what I had spent 12 years doing beforehand. My strengths, and I guess my values, aligned to really building relationships for the long term, bringing value to people, understanding what they value, and then figuring out how I can bring that to their table. And I just didn't have the opportunity to do that when I had to try and keep in touch with 150 different customers, and try and tell to them, it was just very transactional. And that, it meant I was turning up on phone calls without... I was used to knowing everything that went on in the customers I had before, probably more than the partners. And that wasn't the case here. I was sort of having to be dropped in without having done research, without having had the time to sit down and talk to people, without really potentially ever having met people before on the customer side, that was probably the prime example of where I thought this just isn't sitting well with how I want to operate. It's just that the job. It wasn't, you know, there were plenty of people out there that will love that sort of moving fast pace, moving from customer to customer, but it just didn't fit well with me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:22

Well, then it sounds like for you, for you to get the most out of your role, and work, you need to have a continuous relationship, for lack of a better phrase, and that continuous collaboration, and that know what's going on. And that is much more fulfilling for you, I'm guessing, shot in the dark, than the parachuting in and making the sale.

Laura Parker 08:45

Yes. Absolutely. I love the wind of a sale. I do love getting those signatures on the dotted line but I want to do it because we found a solution that really works for that customer. And because we're going to help that customer's business and we're going to help our stakeholders look good, feel good, do their job better. And for me, that just means I prefer to spend more time understanding what that looks like for as many people as I can.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:10

Very cool. That's amazing that you know that about yourself. So my question then becomes, at what point did you decide, "Okay, you know, I did all this work, I now recognize that I need to make a different shift in one way or another" what transpired to have you say that, "Okay, now's the time."?

Laura Parker 09:30

I mean, I knew it probably after about nine months. We're very quarterly target-driven business. So I'm thinking in quarters. How many quarters I miss my target and why I was missing my target. So after about three quarters, I was thinking, it had been a really steep learning curve, and I completely underestimated that but I've done learning curves in the past, I have moved industries, most jobs I've had have moved me from industry to industry, but this was a really steep learning curve. So I found that quite difficult. But by then the fact that I wasn't paying to my strengths. So I was probably about nine months in, and I did have conversations with my manager. I mean, I think, the manager does play a role in these conversations. And if you've got a great one, then you really need to leverage them. So I was being open. But the response back from the business was, "Well, you need to tell us what you want to do if it's not this." And my issue was, I know about all the jobs that exist, I don't know what future jobs people might be thinking about creating. So I was struggling. I didn't think I wanted to do any of the jobs that I sort of saw existed, the people I interacted with regularly. I was struggling to think, "Well, what's the new job that I might do?" And I started talking to people, but actually, then I got put onto your podcast by a colleague. And that sort of set me on a fantastic path.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:51

Well, I'm so glad that your colleagues set you in the direction of our podcasts because it turns out very well in the end. But I'm curious, when you started down that direction after you found the podcast, what happened next?

Laura Parker 11:06

I listened to a few episodes of the podcast. And then I think it was literally at the end of one of the podcasts, I think you say, "You know, you can email me if you have any questions." And I just thought how, or I argued this email thing ago, let's see what really happens. And you replied. And I was like, "Wow, this really exists." And then it all happened quite quickly. I had an initial call, I can't remember who it was, sorry. But he was asking some great questions about my situation and what I thought I wanted to do. And then that sort of got me on to the career change bootcamp program. And I just thought, you know, it was quite a lot of money upfront, but I thought I had been, for me, damaging careers situations in my 20s. And my dad had happened to me twice before, and I've managed to get out of them. And I promised myself, I'd never let that happen again, because I know how damaging is it takes a long time to build up your confidence when being shaken. You know, you can lose your confidence very quickly. And then it takes a lot longer to build that backup. And I really didn't... I really wanted to try and nip this in the bud this time. My competence was struggling after that sort of nine-month period I mentioned. So I couldn't believe that I was in this situation. But I thought I just need to really do something quite, drastic the wrong word, but what I wanted to do was have something that would do something and own something that had longevity. And that's what I've loved about the program is that I know I've got access to these resources forever. And the coaching sessions have been amazing. And they've really helped me understand things about myself that I hadn't been able to piece together before. But even so, notwithstanding that, just having access to the resources and the worksheets has really helped me create an environment that is feel sustainable. They all happen quite quickly. Once I had that initial conversation, I thought, "No, I am going to put my money where my mouth is. I'm going to do this program. And I'm going to make it work so that I don't keep finding myself in this." You know, I'm in my early 40s now, so that's why I kind of couldn't believe that 20 years on, I'm back in a position I remember being in many years ago.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:11

So share with us what, at this point, has happened? Because as you said, for you it has moved rather quickly. But what are you getting to do right now? Because you're in a state of transition, right?

Laura Parker 13:25

Yes. I kicked off the career change bootcamp and was quite religious about that. Set up my coaching sessions, did all the pre-work, and I blocked the timeout, you know, make the time to do it all. So that was all sort of following the process. At the same time, what I had decided to own as well was start talking to other people around the business here to find out and quite a few people here have changed roles, like significantly change from department to department. And I started a couple of people in the London office had done that. So I started talking to them about how they have done that. And the common theme was, being clear with your manager that you want to move, but also going out to the business and finding out what's going on and bits that you don't know about, parts of business you don't know about so that you can actually come up with some options. So that's what I did. I started getting in touch with senior people, not so senior people, people in departments that I thought I might want to work in. We're not very big in London here, you know, there's only about 14 of us now. So I was contacting people in our San Francisco, Melbourne, New York offices. And they were people who were either shifted roles quite significant, and I wanted to find out how they've done that. All were people ever say who were in departments that I thought maybe I'd be interested in working in, or there were all just quite senior people that have a broad scope of what's going on. They see more broadly what's going on than I was so I could get their take as to what they thought the challenges in the business were, went some extra effort would be valued. And I had all those conversations, I worked through what my questions were going to be that I was asking them. So I kept the same questions for everybody. So that allowed me to have some things coming out from all those conversations, so I could spot patterns and actually come up with a plan and not just have lots of random bits of information that didn't connect. So I got some really great intelligence from that. And it was through those conversations, plus all the career change bootcamp stuff to help me really understand what my strengths were, that allowed me to design, essentially, I've designed a job for myself here. I took that to... My manager was great that he supported me in getting that up to the leadership. And where I'm at now is leadership bought into it, they didn't want it to be a sort of all-in right now. So that's the transition point. Also, because I do carry a target, and we have investors who care about revenues. So I can appreciate that there's a bit of a business imperative for me trying to keep bringing in some of the revenue that I'm targeted for, but they have dropped my revenue target by 20% to allow me to spend 20% of my time on the new role sort of scoping it out. And then I know they've created a backfill for they're starting the process for having a backfill for me in the summer.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:20

Okay, so in that 20% and the role that you're shifting to, what do you get to do?

Laura Parker 16:26

So right now, a couple of key things have happened, I was an off-site in our San Francisco office for a group of people that are quite instrumental. So the role I scoped out does involve supporting our largest customers, you won't be surprised to hear, we have about 80 of those across the whole business. And we have a group of four people that are responsible for kind of delivering our product to that customer. Those four people had an off-site last week in San Francisco. So I went to that off-site and wouldn't have been able to contribute to that. And part of my role will be to start to understand, at the moment, all four of them is kind of treating that role a little bit differently, the delivering different things in different ways to the customers. So we're trying to bring some standardization to then allow people to flex where they need to, but where we're kind of starting from a bit more of a more standard approach. So that was one thing that I've kicked off. And then other than that, the main thing I'm doing for the rest of this quarter, and again, I've really been very clear as to how many days this quarter, the 20% means I can contribute, you know, that helps set expectations and help people not expect too much for me or me expect too much for myself. So with the time taken in San Francisco, I mapped out how many other days I had left. And I'm using those days to start connecting to other people with this new hat on to see what they think the value that I could bring in this new role and what challenges they've got that they'd like some extra resource and support around. So I'm on a bit of a fact-finding mission for that until the end of March, for sure, initially.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:05

How would you describe some of your strengths and how they fit into this new role? Which I understand this role doesn't have a name yet, and honestly, I think that it might be easier if a lot of different roles have a name and we've just focused on what they actually do and what your function is, and what results you deliver. But for you, you have done a great job identifying some of your strengths and what you want. But if you can share just a little bit about how you describe your strengths and where they fit into this role.

Laura Parker 18:34

So actually, I have all my coaching sessions with Jennifer and all the work that we did through Strengths Finder, the phrase that really resonated with me that she, of course, came up with, because she's fabulous, was the idea of being a conductor in an orchestra, that sort of was the best way that I could visualize it. And when I look back at where I've been most successful, it is getting people focused on an outcome, bringing the moving parts together, trying to streamline things, but enabling people at the same time. And that was the crux of what I thought I could bring. We're a fast-growing business, we'll probably double in size again this year, it's a really real opportunity to get people aligned in a direction, as I say, help enable people to focus on aspects they might not currently be able to so everyone's too busy rushing around. So that idea of being a conductor, just bringing people together like defining what we're trying to achieve, bringing people together getting people focused on delivering that, and empowering them to do that is pretty much where the main crux of the skills that I wanted to put to use.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:44

You know what is, I think just crazy. I see it all the time. I'm still blown away by it. The simple fact that when you, and I think you've done such a great job of this when you go through and get clear about what you want, all of a sudden that puts you in a much better position to be able to ask for exactly what you want. And the crazy part is that when you ask for what you want, then people are so much more likely to get what it is that they actually want. And I think you've done such a phenomenal job of that here. So kudos to you, first of all. And then second of all, I'm really curious about something that you said earlier. You had mentioned the idea of confidence, and you promising yourself that you're never going to let yourself go down the track where your confidence is depleted or diminished so much because you know just how long it takes to bounce back from that. And I would absolutely agree with that, you know, thinking about my own experiences and the experiences that we see all the time, we see sometimes people that have overstayed in their job for three or four years. And it just takes a significant period of time to be able to bounce back from that from a confidence standpoint. So I'm curious a little bit about what you meant by that. And how did you recognize before it got to that undoable point, that this is something that needed to change now, not later?

Laura Parker 21:16

Yeah. I mean, I recognized that quite quickly because of having been in the situation before, albeit it was a long time ago. But I recognized it quite quickly. It was a while before I figured out what to do about it. And I had a conversation with my manager that I wasn't enjoying where I was, I knew I wasn't delivering what they needed the role to deliver, that I was struggling with that, as I mentioned, for some of the sort of values way I operate. So I have had that conversation. What actually worked really well, that kind of also really helped move me down this path, apart from my colleagues here tell me about your podcast, was it struck me my managers in San Francisco, he's American and I'm British, and it really opened a doorway when I was much more, well, for me quite blunt about where I was at, you know, British people skirt around things, and we read tones. And I think I hadn't been blunt enough with him. So he hadn't appreciated where I was at. And I got to a point where I just had a really open conversation. So I don't want to be in this role. That helped a lot because at that point I was able to say, "But I'm doing something about it." By that point, I'd signed up to the bootcamp. So he really valued the fact that I was doing something about it, that he understood finally what I was really saying, rather than me being British, and not seeing it clearly enough for him. And from that point on, he was able to sort of connect me and open a few doors. But I knew my competence, I recognized it quickly. It's just a few things came into line, that meant I was able to do something about it, which was finding out about Happen To Your Career, having that open and frank conversation with my manager, and really getting to understand my strengths and then doing something about it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:01

What did you feel, like, was the hardest part of making this most recent change? And I know it's still not complete, however, it's well on its way, and it's going to happen in entirety, it sounds like, on some kind of timeframe here. But what did you feel like was most difficult for you?

Laura Parker 23:21

I think the most difficult but it's probably still to come, if I'm honest. I've done brand new roles before and I know that what makes them successful, one of the things that makes them successful, is sort of being given the authority to do the role. And this role is even more interesting. I've never designed a role, I've been the first person to do a role, but I've not actually created the role before. What will be interesting now is I don't have a job title, I have an idea about what team I'll be in but that is still to be fully decided. So, therefore, I don't know yet who my manager is going to be. I know my current manager feels very strongly and what I'm doing, he believes in his heart, I think that we do need someone doing what I propose. So he's backing me up at the moment, but I will have to move out of his team in the not too distant future. So what team do I go to? So I think the challenging bit is going to be getting that authority and being able to sort of start working, assuming that I have some of the authority to do what I think I want to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:25

When having been in a similar situation before too, when you're creating something new, there has a tendency to be ambiguity around it, and working through the ambiguity to still make sure that you are getting whatever results are either necessary or that you want to. And a lot of times even defining those things can be a challenge in the first place. So I totally can appreciate what you're saying in terms of some of the challenges are yet to come.

Laura Parker 24:57

Absolutely. I think so. Something I've learned about myself, not necessarily through the bootcamp, but I know I'm not, you know, one of my strengths is not planning to the nth degree, I am someone who tends to just get on with stuff and then I'll course correct as I need to. That's been okay so far. I've put some high-level goals in my proposal, I put some success criteria to what I think successful looks like. But I haven't got a completely defined roadmap as to how I'm going to get there. I'm fine with that because I know that the more I talk to people, the more I'll get that defined. But I'm also conscious that just for the business, I do need to show that there is some direction and I'm not just sort of off chatting to people without really putting anything together. So I'm alive to that as well.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:40

One of the things you said to me before we started here, and before we really got going was, I didn't expect to have so many concrete results so quickly. And I've got to ask you about that. Because here's the general response we usually have when we get the opportunity to work with people. Usually, people say something along the lines of, "Hey, it was way different than I expected, it was far more amazing than I expected. It also took longer than what I thought it was going to." And that's the general response. So I've got to ask you about this because it's different than what I hear on a normal site. And you've done such a great job helping to speed up the process for yourself and really grabbing and taking control of that. And quite honestly, that's usually where I see more results more quickly, as usually those people that take more action more quickly, quite frankly. But what do you feel, first of all, when you say that, what did you mean when you said, "I got more concrete results more quickly than I expected."?

Laura Parker 26:47

I was very surprised that how quickly I mean, I mentioned to you, I think before we started recording that my target, I have a call to the target and my target was dropped by 20% fairly easily, like within a couple of weeks of me putting this proposal out there. And that was a shock to me. Like I think, as I say, this business runs on targets. That's how we show our investors that we're progressing. And my boss is very target-focused. So once that happened, I was like, "Okay, this is really happening now." And that was a signal for me more than having a job title or knowing which bit the business I was going to sit in. Because we've had to readdress what we're delivering as a business because of that, that happened really quickly. I was thinking before we started that I wanted to show people that I'm just an ordinary person. And this is just sort of happened to me. And it's not an extraordinary, I didn't want people to feel this was an extraordinary thing. So I've been trying to think what was in my control that facilitated that. Because some things you can't control, like, you can't control who the manager is, you can't control whether they have the right outlook to support you or whether they care. But when I think about what actually progressed, definitely doing the bootcamp helped. And, you know, obviously, I would recommend people do your bootcamp. But I think what it showed the company here was that I was serious. And I actually came with some pretty decent value adding information when I had that proposal, like, I'd been through some good thought processes about myself as to how I got to where I got to. So that was valuable, I think, and you know, people can own that. And the other thing that really shifted was me having a very frank conversation with my manager, which I highlighted already. For me, I was at the point where I just thought I would just rather get this out in the open. If it causes massive issues, then I'll have to deal with that. But I just couldn't. I had to let him know where I was really at. So I would encourage people as as far as they feel possible, just be really open with where you're at. But try and do that with a plan or some thinking as to what it could look like if it was different.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:52

So that's really interesting. And it sounds like a big portion of what moved to this along for you so quickly, was being able to come to the table at a different level of preparedness, and having thought through a lot of these things, then what might otherwise have happened. And it sounds like there's a lot of contributors to that. Part of it was you taking control of the process. Part of it was getting to work with our team. And part of it was some of the other steps that you took throughout the process too. But I just want to say first of all, congratulations, because I know, you know, going and doing that and taking that level of control can absolutely be difficult, and doing that in such a short time period. I think it shows that almost anybody really can do this if you're focused on the pieces that you can influence and you can control which I think was another factor that you alluded to as well. So really nice job.

Laura Parker 29:52

Yeah, absolutely. As I said, there were things that were within my control. There are things that, you know, having a great manager, having a fast goes company where, you know, I'm in a fast growth company where movement is quite common. That's not in everyone's control, either. But when I think about being open and being honest, and being frank and then taking a bit of ownership over the process of what the future could look like, that is within our control, I think.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:18

Everybody has the ability to influence that. I love it. Well, I so appreciate the opportunity for us to sit front row and see some of these changes, and you put in trust in us to be able to assist with that. That's amazing. And I really appreciate you taking the time, not just we, before we hit record, we were actually looking at up trying to figure out, you know, how many months has actually been. Well, it turns out that was just back in September where you started to really double down on making this type of change. So it's really only been, four or five months?

Laura Parker 30:56

Yeah, probably more four months, because it just took us a while to get those schedules with time differences. But yeah, definitely by Christmas, I sort of knew that things will know on the cards to change.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:07

Well, great job going from a listener of the podcast into getting the results that you were looking for. I think that that's absolutely amazing. And thank you for taking the time and making the time and I only have one more question for you. For people that find themselves in that situation where you were, maybe they had made a change or two before and recognizing that, you know, something is amiss– values or otherwise. What advice would you give them when they're at that point and trying to decide, "Should I make a change? Should I make another change?" And if so, what does that look like? What advice would you give them?

Laura Parker 31:42

My advice when I have given this before is do not stay in that negative environment for any longer than you absolutely need to, it's so harmful, and it takes such a long time to get back up to being the best version of yourself. And when I say don't stay in it, I mean, look at what you can control and start working on those pieces. A lot of it you can't control but there are bits you can. And that's where you need to focus your efforts.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:16

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address– scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like, and the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:08

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 33:14

That's what I found really awakening with doing the StrengthsFinder is, "No, these are actually strengths which can be perceived as weaknesses in your current role."

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:26

We get questions every week about assessments, particularly the Clifton Strengths Finder assessment. Is it accurate? Will it tell me what type of career I should focus on? How do I use it outside of my work? All good questions. However, we thought it would be better to show you how people can use strengths, what they are, how they work, and even incorporate them into things, like, interviews, and everything else. And we also thought it would be best if we showed you this real-time.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:56

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Paul Stockhoff 00:01

Do you even want to be at this place? Or is this just a job for you? If it's just a job, that's fine, but you're probably going to want a new one relatively quickly.

Introduction 00:17

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:42

When you're making a career transition, how will you recognize what is actually a great fit for you? We get many questions from Happeners all over the world, which we love, but I've never actually had anyone ask me that question. And in many ways, it is the question. The simple answer is, well, unless you've done some certain work, you probably won't. We've had so many clients that have had the same story over and over again. They take many months to define what they want, they experiment to validate that that's actually what they want in the real world. And then miraculously, it seems to appear out of nowhere. Here's what actually happens. The opportunities were there the whole time. But if you don't know what to look for, the same opportunity that might already be there just passes you by two ships in the night. And you never realized that it was so close to you.

Paul Stockhoff 01:38

I needed the initial, like, boost forward in just starting a career change. It wasn't the technical aspects. It was the "what do you want" aspect of it. And the deeper level of understanding what that was. I think everyone has the shortlist of, "I need to make this amount of money. I want a 401k. I need these benefits." Cool. That's really low-level stuff. What do you want?

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:05

That's Paul Stockhoff. Paul is a product and furniture designer, which is as cool of a career as it sounds like. But that doesn't mean every furniture design job is a great one. In fact, Paul had a previous job where he knew day one that he didn't want to stay. But he stuck with it because he felt like he would be bailing if he left too soon. And he thought he could figure out a way to make it better. Spoiler alert, it didn't get any better. Now if we fast forward to the end of Paul's career change story, you would see that his friend reached out to him. And that resulted in a job offer that was the perfect fit. But it's nowhere near as simple as it sounds. When Paul knew his job was not working out, he began doing all the things, updating his resume, reaching out to his network, applying to jobs, all the things that he thought he had to do to find a job, but nothing worked. So he decided to set a deadline for himself. If he didn't have a new job by the beginning of the year, he would reach out for help. And that's where we got to meet him because when the beginning of January came and went with no great job prospects in sight, he reached out to us. Working alongside a coach, Paul was able to define the type of team and people that he wanted to work with. With the types of problems he wanted to solve, and even how he wanted to use his strengths. He took the time to really think about what he needed and wanted in this next iteration of his career. And when that friend reached out, and he learned about the role, he recognized it as the phenomenal fit that it was. So let's go back to that question. Get that question in mind again, that question being, how will you recognize what is actually a great fit for you? Here's my conversation with Paul. I want you to hear exactly how he made it possible to recognize his fit when it came along.

Paul Stockhoff 03:56

I have a background in architecture, I went to architecture school, I always kind of knew I wanted to be in the related field of it. But very early in my graduate program, I knew I didn't want to be an architect. It's a cool process, I had mad respect for everyone who is a licensed architect, but it's just never what I wanted to do. I always loved the physical building of things and really the detailing of that. And that set me on this really amazing path of getting to figure out all the details of everything and not the huge concepts at a building scale. So I ended up narrowing down to kind of furniture and all the interior pieces of a building. So down to the exact poke that we're going to use, that's the stuff I'm choosing and picking. So that was I kind of always floated in architecture and next to it and allowed me to understand it and had to kind of figure out where I could go with that. And about that time, the job I had always wanted, post-grad school, they'd opened up a facility in Colorado. That's like, perfect. Everything is aligned. The place I always wanted to go, which they were back East has opened this Colorado facility, I get to use my full education. They do the coolest, weirdest stuff. This is exactly what I want. I applied. Got a job. And that was first day, I was like, "I've made a terrible decision." Remember just going, they've presented well. And this is not where I want to be. Maybe it's a bad first day, maybe they're just really swamped and gave like, thousand, well, it could be this, it could be that, like, gave too much benefit of doubt. And I think it was, in that point, people were always like, "How long do you think you'll be at this placement?" Going in I was like, "Oh, I want to be there at least five years." And then by like, the end of the month is like, one year, like, how fast can I get out of this? There was just like, I have the traditional HR onboarding, which was fine, made sense. But then it was just like, I didn't have any jobs lined up. There was no, "here's who your lead is." And I remember sitting in my office for about three hours by myself. And I was just like, I don't even know who to go to, to ask like, "What do I do?" Like you've hired me, but like, what project am I on? And the person who had met with me was in meetings all day, was very clearly I was not a priority. And for where that company has ended up, not a surprise. And just, there was no, everyone stayed in their office. It was like no one was excited that there was a new person, and come to find out that company had kind of purchased or kind of consumed an old company that had gone bankrupt. And that had not been made extremely clear. And it was like, "Oh, you're one of the new people. We used to do it this way. You use this other software. We don't like that. That's what the New Hampshire group does." And I was just like...

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:16

"You're not from around here, are you?"

Paul Stockhoff 07:19

Yeah. And I'm like, "Oh, god, okay." And it was just like, okay, I can navigate that. But it's just clearly, like, it didn't matter. You could have been a rock star, you could have just been anyone. And it just, no one was going to be happy. And like, most things started with this as a problem, not how are we going to solve it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:41

So that's interesting. What I'm hearing from you is that this was not just an organizational misfit and a cultural misfit compared to what you were looking for, and probably what many people are looking for. But also on top of that, it sounded like there was a very clear values difference. I just heard you mentioned, you know when people are coming to the meetings, we're talking about what are the problems as opposed to here's the problems, how are we going to solve them. And just in understanding more about what you're looking for, that seems to be the polar opposite of the way you value interacting.

Paul Stockhoff 08:20

Totally. And as I kind of got through the first week, I had realized I had interviewed mostly with the East Coast team, not the group out in Colorado, which had kind of been this consumed company. In back East, they were about solving problems. They were this really tight-knit group family of people. That was just not the case in the Colorado facility. And it became very clear that there was kind of this East Coast-West Coast situation. And I had oddly ended up being someone in the West Coast office that aligned with the East Coast team, which was not helpful, and made me stick out like a sore thumb. So this was going on, it was starting to be like, "Alright, this is happening. I don't know what I want to do." And it started just kind of questioning everything, like, "Do I even want to be in this industry? Do I like this? This just seems rough. Everyone's fighting. Like there's fighting within this group. There's fighting within the construction industry, it's always this finger-pointing game." And that was kind of the start of, "Okay, I have this background. I like my background. I feel like one of the things I love doing is just problem-solving." I'm like, "Cool, I kinda know this." And then it became the search of like, "Where can I problem solve? Everyone needs that." And then it was just the like, write resumes, applied jobs, searching everything. And it was this weird feeling of like, I want to do good work. I want to, like, solve problems for people and I just want to do a good job. I felt like I was in this position of I just want, like, I'll do anything. And I think that's when... that was probably in hindsight when I just like your... It was just being kind of desperate. And it was so unfocused that I think, I don't know if that had just come across, but it was also as working with this group of like, I didn't know what my strengths were yet, all I could say is I'm great at problem-solving. Great, everyone else is listening, you're not going to come across as unique. And kind of go into this process. And work is just, I'm just taking a beating. And it's the Sunday scaries. It's, you don't want to go to work on Monday. And luckily, I have a partner who loves her job. And it was just like, polar opposite of where I was. But I knew that these places existed, which was this like hopeful thing, I'm just okay, I know people actually like going to work. And I've had jobs that I was fine with. But I could see her really loving her job. And there was this situation where I was talking with someone and we've come up with this, kind of, we had our own scale of how we would rank jobs. And one was where we were and then 10 was like perfect. And we would rank all these job listings and stuff. And like, we were seeing a whole bunch of fives. And we're just like, "God, there's not finding it." And this is going on. And we're getting closer to, like, November's kind of been here, I've been there a year, and going this is really not going well. And to the point of just as blowing out my health, I was not showing up as a good person, because I was just consumed with like, "I need to get out of this. Work sucks", which just, it was painful. No matter what I would do, it was just never going to be enough. And on top of it was just, there was a culture of work weekends, work late, all the stereotypical bad things about an office life that you hear people struggle with. And I was stuck in it too. And I was stuck setting a boundary with it. And slowly started taking some of those steps of, like, I did my hours, that's the best I can do, this is not creeping into my weekend. And at that point, I had a couple interviews, but just complete lowball offers of like, yeah, I can go back to where I started. And like drop health insurance and all this stuff. And like, maybe worth it from a mental health standpoint, but I'm gonna just be starting the search all over again. And at that point, I gotten really frustrated one day at work. And I was just like, if I'm going to have my time wasted, and just made to feel really terrible, I'm gonna at least, I'm going to figure out how to get out of this. And I remember literally searching job changed podcasts on my phone. And it was like in the Spotify app. And that's how I found you guys. Started listening to it I was like, "Okay, that seems reasonable. That person sounded happy." And I think it was probably one of the other interviews with someone that seems reasonable. Next day, listen to a little bit more. And kind of start this like Monday morning routine. And I know the new episode will drop. And I'll listen to it. It was just like, it started getting my brain to like unstick and be like, "Well, did you think about this? Or did you think about that." And I think that was this really slow on ramp for me to be like, "Oh, there's a different way of doing this." And it was all stuff that had never been presented before. And coming from this architecture background, there's this really clear path. And I wasn't following that path. I wasn't in a firm. And also, no one really goes over career stuff at any point. And I was realizing I had to go like learn this. The advice from others was either a generation old, or eyes with a bunch of architects that were on there kind of their own path because that was kind of my tribe, or people that were just doing completely different things and they had their own system of getting jobs.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:25

Yeah. So you realize that someplace, well, you realize day one, that this is not going to be the right fit. As you started realizing that there might be a different way to do career change or a different way to find and identify work that's more meaningful to you, what caused you to feel like you could start to move forward in a way that was, let's call it less desperate?

Paul Stockhoff 14:51

I think what started that was once I actually got into coaching, because it was, I hit this point of I was applying to jobs, I had gotten a couple interviews, and there was also the send the applications in any way here anything for three months. And it was always this game of, you would look at the institution or the company and they'd be like, sometimes it just, that's how long they take. And I was kind of running out the clock on some of those. But I think what it was, was just, the desperation stopped when we started having the conversations of, "It's gonna get worse if you just bail, and you're gonna put on this other stress of unknown, and you don't know what you want." And it was that kind of clear statement of like, so you're just redoing it again, like you're not improving the situation. And luckily, where I was, it was providing a comfortable enough financial position that was just like, so you're gonna give that up to be less stressed, which like reasonable, but you're gonna do it at a huge financial cost, do you want to put that burden on top of this situation? Because you least know what you have right now. You know, you don't want it. But you know what it is, and start getting that under control. Get that into, "this is how many hours you're contractually obligated to work", do that and stop. And it was starting to rain some of that in, I would say that was one of the harder points of just getting it to kind of calm down. And when I first started working with Ben, it caught me off guard, he was just like, "Your job this weekend is to do nothing, just don't do anything, just actually take a weekend off. Don't think about this. Don't think about work, just settle." In that, that was really hard. Because it was just, there was that push of, well if I work through it this weekend, I can figure it out. And I'll get out of this position. And traditionally, I was really used to just slam the gas and go. And I had to learn not to do that and just like back off. So there were multiple weekends of, "what did you do this weekend?" Well, "No, you weren't supposed to do that. You were supposed to be off." And then that started opening up a lot more of the mental space of being able to define what I want it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:26

So this is really interesting and little bit of context behind the scenes. The reason that we might do something like that with our clients is because we find that especially like in your case, Paul, what had worked for you in the past, and part of what hadn't made you successful in the past, had to sort of be unlearned, in some ways, so that you can begin changing behavior now that you had a different set of goals. And that's part of exactly what was going on here. So even though, I mean, it sounds unreasonable and illogical. But we're, you know, humans are not logical beings, that like, "Hey, I'm really, like, I'm gonna decide to do nothing over the weekend. And I literally can't do it in some ways." That doesn't make any sense. But that's what we have a tendency to do as human beings. So here's a question for you on that. Going through that, what did you see when you started to do more of that sort of to focus elsewhere beyond just like solving the problem, which is something you do very, very well and love to do, what did that do for you? What did that not do for you? What came from that?

Paul Stockhoff 18:42

I think the big thing was it got the current job to be up. It got put in its box of like, that's work back and live there. I did my hours, great done. So that gave me a lot of working. It started to give some working space. I think that started becoming a lot of other balance in just a lot of other places in life of just having time to do all the other little life stuff and also have fun. And like that was this thing that had gotten cut really early. I had to realize. Cut out the fun. In hindsight, I was just like, of course, I did that because it was just this, like, push through it. That's the first thing that you can cut is having those fun moments in life. And they were the thing I was really needing to kind of navigate some of this. So that just started this whole reworking of evaluation of everything of like, "Oh, let's look at everything here." So like it was career stuff. It was, "How I would engage with others. Was there stuff I needed to look at personally?" And it was a dive for a minute of just like first and pull everything out and just look at everything and really see. And that started this, like, "How did I even get into this design architecture field? Is this really what I want? Did we like these choices?" And there's a moment of time I was like, "Oh, I'm 18 again." I felt like I just come out of high school and everyone's like, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" And it's like, "I don't know." But it was not scary anymore. It was like, "Oh, I have a decision. And I get to drive it now." And that became really, that started to become exciting. And I also knew my current position was going to come to an end. It wasn't like, "Oh, when is it going to end?" I just knew is going to end and I can live with that. But I know there's progress. And I was also putting a dedicated time to solve it. It was the new priority in life. And I think that one of the very helpful things of coaching was, "Here is dedicated time. Every week, I got to do this." Like, I'm showing up for this. It's on my schedule. And I know, even if it's a gnarly week, there was an hour dedicated to it. And that, like when it was a rough week, I at least knew I had a conversation. Or, "Hey, are you ready?" I could leverage the, I want to show up and show that I did stuff. And it would be the "Hey, I need to be ready to have this conversation this afternoon. Did I do what I needed?" And I think that was the biggest thing for me, was just having consistent progress. I think everyone goes, "Oh, you have to have these cover letters and you need resume." I was okay with that kind of stuff. I needed the initial like boosts forward in just starting a career change. It wasn't the technical aspects. It was the, 'what do you want' aspects of it. And the deeper level of understanding what that was. I think everyone has the shortlist of like, "I need to make this amount of money. I want to 401k. I need these benefits." Cool. That's really low-level stuff. What do you want? And I think that weekly conversation was super helpful to get me to actually define that. And I think at one point, Ben literally was just like, "What do you want to do?" And I was just like, "Oh, I don't know." And then it started to be that conversation and working through that. And that was helpful with getting to work with you guys.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:35

Well, I appreciate those words. And also, I think that it's fun to see, I know, you talked about the progression. And you know, what keeps you moving forward earlier. But I think that's really fun. That's one of the most fun things for me is being able to see other people apply this stuff, and you've done a really nice job. And what I'm also curious about is, when you look back on this particular career change, what do you feel like were the hardest parts or most surprising parts to you?

Paul Stockhoff 23:08

I think the hardest parts were the moments of just kind of sit tight, and get comfortable with it. And that it was just going to take longer than I wanted. There was a pretty I wanted out. And I think really, finally just letting that go like it will get solved. It's going to take a sec, I think that was also just me rebinding a perspective back to normal of like, things aren't instantaneous. And I was in an environment of everything needed to be instantaneous. I think the surprising thing was just, it wasn't... Well, the goal was career change. It was also just like self-growth that I wasn't expecting along the way of just, it became this opportunity as an overall clearing house of just like, "Let's fix Paul's life. Let's make this better."

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:11

How do you did? I'm curious. So that is a thing that happens. That's actually one of my other favorite things that occurs from this. Even years later, I'll get so many emails and texts and stuff from people that have gone through this type of change, and then are applying it to all areas of their life in one way or another. But when you say that, well, how did that show up for you?

Paul Stockhoff 24:32

I think it was kind of looking at, it was this evaluation like where I was really focused on like this career change and like, "Hey, these things don't feel good. What else doesn't feel good in my life, and I haven't dealt with?" It was dealing with a death in the family that I hadn't resolved. It was, how do I be a better partner? How do I show up and do a better job there? How do I take care of myself better and constrain work to a normal work week and not let it bleed in? And I thought, I think this was the other thing but, I'm used to going... we're gonna solve this thing really aggressively once. And that is not how this worked at all. It was, "I'm gonna make a little progress over here. And we'll make a little progress over here." And it was much more of a snowballing of a lot of little things getting fixed, that eventually led to the like, "Oh, yeah, I have a new job now. Great." And that was a surprise. I think the other thing was getting comfortable asking for help. That was, I really didn't want to send the initial email of like, "I'm interested in getting career coaching." That felt like a failure to ask. I was like, "I should be able to do this." And I think starting with career coaching was just like, "Oh, that was okay to ask for help." That was a reasonable thing to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:00

When you think back, what made you feel like it was not okay that you couldn't do this or other things on your own?

Paul Stockhoff 26:10

I think it was the perspective of, I felt like I had enough experience and enough education in some places that I should be, to me, it was just another problem that could be solved. And therefore I should be able to do it. And we kind of talked about, I used to solve it by just throwing an effort at it. And I was throwing effort and just burning myself out. And it was like, it was the first time where I was really just running into a wall hard. And I wasn't getting around it. And I think previously, I was just going through it just through effort. And it was just total evaluation of like, "Oh, I gotta learn, because this isn't working everywhere." Everything is not working. And that took a sec to kind of get myself to okay to do it differently. And it was this big evaluation of like, "Oh, I got to figure this out." And that was scary. I had taken a system that kind of worked for 10 years, and go, "I gotta overhaul this." And that was uncomfortable. And also, realizing probably the system I had previously was not a good system.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:25

But I mean, there was a point in time where it served you to some degree, whether it was good or not like it definitely served you for a time period.

Paul Stockhoff 27:32

It was functional, yes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:33

It was functional, at least.

Paul Stockhoff 27:35

Yeah. And I think that was this kind of weird spot of like, "Oh, this worked. It got me here. I'm not happy with where I am." And it was just like, almost like scraping, like, just scrape everything and start over. And that was then I think that's when I started getting a little uncomfortable with it. Because it's just like, "Oh, this is a pretty heavy reset." And I got to start from zero and come back up. But I think once I got comfortable with that, I was just like, "Oh, this is good. This is positive." Like, I get a lot more choice now and I get this second round of this. And it was the exciting version of being 18 and what do you want to go do. I was like, "Oh, I have 10 years of doing this incorrectly. And I have experienced now to make this choice. This is great. Like, I have skills, I have valuable things. I have all this other stuff. I start to know who I am through my strengths. This is great." And it started to finally become this really positive thing, not this just this utter teardown and negative thing. It's like, cool, that was a chapter of my life. Go do the thing I really want now. And that was great.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:54

Let's kind of pull back here for a second and run me through kind of the bullet point version of what led up to you accepting this offer. So kind of run quickly through the career change process in terms of where you had decided, "Okay, I have some level of idea of what I'm looking for." And then how did that lead to accepted offer for this particular organization?

Paul Stockhoff 29:20

So the deal with this one was I ended up actually getting a message from someone who I've worked with previously. And I was like, "Yeah, interesting. The group seems great." And I was still kind of hesitant of like, "Do I really want to stay in this industry?" But also, like, maybe I just need a good group to work for and kind of made the decision to go up and have an interview. And I kind of framed it as the worst thing I do is I have a weekend up in Montana. That's the worst thing that happens. Flew up, had a great time, it was also the group I never sent a resume, never sent a cover letter. They had found all that stuff on their own, which was cool, gone up, had a conversation, kind of locations were a little bit of an issue, and worked out the details of that. And then went up for three weeks as an onboarding, or sorry, I skip this up, kind of finalized negotiations of the low level like, here's money, here's benefits stuff.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:26

Did you get what you wanted out of this? Like when you think about total compensation and beyond just the normal stuff, did you feel like you got what you wanted when you came out of it?

Paul Stockhoff 30:38

Yes. And I also felt like I knew where I could flex on stuff and where I couldn't. And just, it was nice to be able to have a frank conversation and be like, "This is the number, take it or leave it." And not in this aggressive, but it's just like, this is the number that makes this work for me. If you can't do it, I would love to work for you guys. But now's not the time. And I think that took away the like, the desperation wasn't there. It wasn't like, "Oh, I'll drop 10 grand." It's like, that's the number I need to make my life work and be functional. Like, why should I give on my personal life to make this deal work?

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:20

It's not a great fit. Like it begins from "Hey, this is an amazing fit" to realm of, "Hey, this is no longer a fit." And yeah, that's awesome.

Paul Stockhoff 31:32

I think that was just really important going in, and just going, what's the bottom end of this? And just knowing it ahead of time, and being confident in that number. With that negotiation, it was, when I met everyone, I was like, "Oh, this is the tribe. This is the group that I've been looking for, for a long time."

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:54

How did you know that this was the group? Was that because of some of the work that you had done previously to define that? Was it because of something else? Clearly, you knew, what caused you to know?

Paul Stockhoff 32:07

Everyone was super low-key, everyone was super mellow. Everyone was excited. There's also just a ton of common interest of like, and I think that was helpful, just I knew there would be conversations about other things besides work. And you would be excited about other people's lives outside of work and just like the dorky stuff I would be excited about, they were also excited about. And like it was important to them, too. And I was just like, "Oh, I've just been looking in the wrong place. This group does exist." And that was great. They also had a clear mission of what they wanted, and what they were trying to do. And they could articulate that. It wasn't just like, "Oh, yeah, we're trying to grow." It was, "We're doing it this way. This is what we want to do. This is where we think you might fit. Do you think that's something you're interested in? Do you see something different?" I think them being able to say what they want, made it automatically way better.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:17

That's interesting.

Paul Stockhoff 33:18

They weren't getting what they wanted. And now it gives me the spot of like, "Hey, this is what was kind of presented. I like that. How are we doing it?" Or, "Hey, this was the goal that was set. I think we can go about it this way."

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:34

Very cool. Your original message from a friend, was that an introduction to the company, was that a, "Hey, you should really check this organization out," or how did that message come about?

Paul Stockhoff 33:45

I think it was along the lines of, "Hey, I think we're hiring for this position. I think you'd be a good fit. Do you want to know more about it?" And I was like, "Yep." Like, I am interested in changing jobs.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:59

How many other places did you interview or interact with in total? Because I know you only accepted one. But how many roughly did you... January you had?

Paul Stockhoff 34:13

Yeah, I think I interviewed with three, had received two offers out of there than I think I did apply to like 25-30 jobs. And I think like the thing that I thought was hilarious was like their jobs I applied to in March, like was hearing back finally after I did accepted the new job of just like that system was so slow. So I don't know how those people actually hire people in a system that slow but.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:45

It's challenging. What advice would you give people in that position?

Paul Stockhoff 34:52

It's okay to start over. And it's okay to ask for help. And there's a group of people out there that are like dedicated to this kind of stuff like you would hire a plumber to fix the plumbing in your house, why would you not hire a professional to help kind of navigate some of this? And I think this realm is always kind of looked at as like, I think early on, people don't have a full understanding of the depth that it takes. I think that's the difference between a job and a career is I think a lot of people kind of understand what a job is, it's the thing you show up and it's that low-level expectation stuff of you get paid, here's the role, but not the career of like, "Hey, I need to work on my strengths. I really want this great team. I need this kind of flexibility to be really successful." And you need some guidance to figure that out. And reading like top five, here's the thing to boost your career is not going to solve it. And it's going to take time.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:59

Hey, if you love this story where we talk through and walk you through step by step how someone got to more meaningful work, then you'll absolutely love our audiobook– Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. I even got to narrate it, which was so fun. And something that I really enjoyed doing and will definitely do for future books as well. But it also contains firsthand accounts from career changers on how they made the move to more meaningful work, just like we include on the podcast here. And actually, it's been called the best audiobook experience ever by some reviewers. You can find those reviews, and the book itself on Audible, Amazon, or any other place where books are sold. Seriously, just pause this right now and go over to Amazon or Audible or wherever you want and download it. You can be reading it and started on your career change in literally seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:53

Now, here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week right here on Happen to Your Career.

Speaker 3 36:59

I just noticed it really wasn't playing to my strengths, it was taking up a lot of mental energy because I was having to re-adjust actually some of my baseline values to a certain extent, and it was exhausting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:13

One of the things that we've noticed behind the scenes here at HTYC is that so many people go through this same cycle again and again. They try a bunch of traditional job search methods. And then they get a role, then they don't see lasting results. Usually, they start out really excited about their new role, and then at some point, start realizing that something's off. Sometimes the role or company doesn't match their values. Sometimes the role doesn't match their strengths. There's a billion different things that they realize that they haven't considered when they get into that new role.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:51

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Lisa Vu 00:01

I wasn't being overworked and burned out the same way that, you know, you typically hear people going through career changes or were very stressed at work. It made me feel even more alone and that even thinking like, "Oh, I shouldn't be complaining."

Introduction 00:23

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:48

Is being bored a good enough reason to leave my job? We actually get asked this question quite often. And I'll say this first. You don't need to justify wanting to leave whether you're burned out and overstimulated or bored and under-stimulated, you deserve a career that fits you. But here's the thing, this question gets me thinking. Burnout is talked about a lot. I mean, 500 million results came up when I typed a burnout into Google. But the thing that's not talked about enough, and why many people feel so alone when they experience it is how being bored and unstimulated at work can be just as draining as burnout.

Lisa Vu 01:33

I think I became very apathetic in my last job where I was at for seven years. And that was just such a dangerous place to be. And it's just so subtle, too, which makes it really hard. And so I think, once I realized, like, I just was at a point where I just don't care.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:52

That's Lisa Vu. Lisa was working in research at UCSF, and like many of you, she was bored at work. So very bored. She was feeling very siloed. She was unable to collaborate and was not receiving any feedback. She could basically do her job and no one else would know. Okay, so some people would listen to this. And because her job was so very low lift and had almost no oversight, she knew that many people would kill for her type of role. But it wasn't right for her. And so she decided to find something else. And as she began working with her coach, she realized that she needed to look outside of research. But then she found herself unable to look at anything besides what she was comfortable with. This was a really interesting phenomenon. And don't we all do some of this? We know that we don't have exposure to what else is out there. But then we go to an organization's careers page and the first thing we look at are roles that we already know something about, it's insanity, but we just can't help ourselves. So Lisa realized this mid-career change, and she kept returning to her research comfort zone. And she somehow had to escape that. So instead of going completely rogue to a new industry and new roles, she decided to look for roles within her current organization, the University of California, San Francisco, which luckily, has a ton of different departments and jobs. Now, towards the end of this episode, Lisa and I walk through her ideal career profile, and examine all of the must haves she identified, and how she searched for them during her job hunt. So I want you to pay attention for that. It's really interesting to connect it all back together. Lisa is now a project manager with UCSF where she works to improve vaccine rates in her local healthcare system. So let's get into the conversation. Here's Lisa taking us back to the beginning of her career.

Lisa Vu 03:47

I graduated during the recession. And so that's sort of kind of, not dictated my career path but it was hard to get jobs. So for one, it was my first crossroads of what do I do with my life. I really didn't have a clear plan. And I think through a connection when my friend's friends was like, "Hey, I know someone who's hiring for a research assistant position." And I interviewed and I got it. And this was like, six months after I graduated, which was actually pretty good for the time because I knew people who would take or it took 9 to 12 months to get a job. And so I was a research assistant, and then a research coordinator for a couple of years. And then I had talked with a friend who got a Master's in Public Health. And so I decided to pursue that before I accepted my job and took this job in order to get more experience for it. So I went to school, went back to school, it was a really great experience got to meet a lot of people and take a lot of great classes. And then I graduated after a couple of years. And then I took a job as a project manager working on a lot of cool projects. But it was a job that was not, looking back, it was a pretty unhealthy environment. And so it was also another point of like, I suppose, graduating again, and what do I do next. And so I actually was offered two jobs. One was at the place I used to work before then, and it was very familiar. And it was kind of the same job I did before but a little bit more money. And then the other job, which was the stressful job I ended up taking because it paid slightly more, but I felt like oh, I need more experience, something different. And so there's a lot of great things I learned from this job right after grad school. It forced me to get outside my comfort zone and really forced me to lead as a project manager in ways I wouldn't have before because I would have just been wanting to have someone show me what to do. But that wasn't really the case. It's just gonna... you're just thrown into it. So which is not uncommon.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:16

That is not uncommon. True story.

Lisa Vu 06:18

Yeah. So, but it was just not a place that had enough support, in my opinion. And we kind of have very high expectations where a lot of people like in my position with less experience, you know. And so I eventually decided to look for another job. My next role was being a, like, a research lead for... It was really cool. The work for this company was very cool. We did social marketing type work, especially in public health. So if you see an ad for, like, HIV testing, or smoking cessation, it would be like plastered around the city and in other cities as well, we had clients in different departments of health in New York. And so our work would be like, that was really cool work. And I supported that with my research knowledge and skills. I was the research department, I guess. And so I was the one person, it was a very small group of people. So that was very fun and cool. Although, after a couple of years, I realized that was very under-stimulating and not challenging for me. And I was, like, the one person that did it. And, I look back and consider that as like kind of my buffer position to kind of recover from a previous toxic position. So it was very easy for me, it was very comfortable. So I was like, "Okay, this is good. I need this to kind of recover from that previous job." But I didn't really, I think looking back, it would have been beneficial to think about. I think I thought about what I didn't like, and what I would do differently. But I didn't really do the internal change type of stuff. Like I was doing direct coaching. And so I think that led me to kind of repeat the pattern of just continuing to stay in my comfort zone in this next job where I would be at for seven years.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:16

Does it been a pattern for you in other places? Besides those two roles.

Lisa Vu 08:20

The first role I had right outside of or right after undergrad, that was also a very comfortable role. And so I feel like most of my career except for the one toxic position, that was very stressful most of my career. If you're counting the four roles now.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:38

Oh, I count it.

Lisa Vu 08:39

Yeah. The three out of the four were very just lowkey independent, which sounds really great, right? So like, I'm getting paid for doing, you know, just, yeah. So it was just familiar and comfortable. And that's kind of what I knew.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:58

But also simultaneously, it sounds like not the type of stimulation or challenge that really was beneficial for you. And sounds like not necessarily the type of collaboration or involvement with other people that you were looking for, as well.

Lisa Vu 09:16

Yeah, I mean, I will say I think the people were probably it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:22

In what way?

Lisa Vu 09:23

Well, I will say that the really unhealthy job I had, the best part was the people, like, we supported each other. We're all stressed out of our minds, but we were there for each other, we hung out, not like you know, like I have to be best friends with people outside of work. But it was just we had this camaraderie that are just really appreciated. And same for other workplaces that they're just really helped make the experience better for me. And it was something I overlooked because my most recent job that I left that was quite unhappy and it did not have any of that. And so, it was something I kind of felt early on, but I ignored it. Because it was something that I felt was too small of a reason to move on and find another job. And I didn't think about this until later on in my career coaching. But yeah, when you're in a job, when you're working, because it's full time, takes a lot of your time, you're being conditioned, one way or another. And it was like, "Wow, I did not realize that." And that's really what I felt was happening in my previous job where I was not really getting interaction, I was not getting feedback about how to be better, or growth or, you know, anything like that. And so that really, I just was felt conditioned to because that was my reality. And I felt like that was normal. And that was what it was supposed to be. Which is, yeah, that's kind of the scary part.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:00

At what point did you recognize, do you remember any point in time where it caused you to then feel like, "No, I have to do something about this. I have to do something different." What was that point in time for you?

Lisa Vu 11:12

I think just frustrations at work just started getting more amplified. Maybe beforehand, it was just an annoyance. But I was getting very frustrated. And just like, starting to get thoughts of like, I don't want to be at this job, or I should start considering something else. And also just thinking about, like, maybe my friends and husband are tired of hearing me complain all the time. But more of that it's like, oh, I'm doing this a lot more. And so. But just I noticed how things would set me off a little bit more than it used to. Another added thing is that didn't help was, of course, the pandemic.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:55

Just throw a pandemic on top. Exactly.

Lisa Vu 12:00

I think I probably would have started searching sooner. And I think I was within the pandemic happen, looking for another job or another career path or whatever. And at that time, it was very hard to think about like, well, I have my very secure job right now. And so where I, thankfully, don't need to use too much of my brain, you know, and that's what felt like. So it was helpful at the time at the beginning, with all that was going on that I didn't need to have to be checked in as much and still be on top of my job. But after a while, yeah, I think what really kept me in my role was not this kind of narrative or thoughts of, I have it pretty good now. Like, you know, people would kill for a role where you didn't have to do a ton and got little oversight, and I kind of got to do whatever I wanted as long as I got the job done.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:02

So for you, the couple elements that were really great, like having that ability to act pretty independent, pretty flexibly, had a lot of autonomy, and just delivered the results. The thought of giving that up, if you will, kind of overshadowed and kept you in that role for it sounds like longer than you want it to be.

Lisa Vu 13:27

Yeah, that plus the fear of entering a very toxic environment like I had done in the past. Especially as I was hearing about a lot of people I knew who were in those types of environments themselves, especially during the pandemic, where jobs are cut, and people had to take on, you know, two roles without getting compensated for it. It would just made me more scared. I think my anxiety just got especially heightened with the pandemic and that just translated to being anxious about moving outside of my comfort zone for work, also.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:10

Okay, let's talk about that then. So when you finally made the decision, "Hey, look, I'm doing this. In one way or another, I'm going full in and I'm gonna make this change." What did you do at that point? What did you try at that point? What did the beginning stages of making a change look like for you?

Lisa Vu 14:31

It was really listening to a few different career change podcasts, including yours, because I'd never heard, like, testimonials or people's stories like that, that sounded like mine, which was very eye-opening for me because I just felt alone because I wasn't being overworked and burned out the same way that we typically hear people going through career changes or who were very stressed at work. It made me feel even more alone and that even thinking like, "Oh, I shouldn't be complaining." Of course, that's looking back now, that was just not helpful at all. I was just kind of kicking myself while I was down. But yeah, it was very eye-opening to hear the stories. And then I think with your podcasts, you're the only one that has actual client interviews. And so that was especially helpful to hear different varieties of stories. So even if it wasn't exactly the same, there were many components that really resonated with me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:37

Well, I appreciate that immensely. And the other question that I have for you, too, is, when you think about this process, what was the hardest part or most uncomfortable part for you, through the process of career change?

Lisa Vu 15:56

I don't know if I can pick a singular one.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:59

But let's go for a few.

Lisa Vu 16:01

Yeah, at the beginning, it was a little bit hard because I didn't know anyone else who had done incurred career coaching, and especially the investment involved, it's like, oh, you know, the thoughts of, I don't know, I have to pay money to do stuff. I could be doing on my own. But then eventually got to a point where it doesn't matter. Admitting to myself, I need some help with this and that's something I've always struggled with, is reaching out for help. And so this is where I'm at least the one thing I didn't know what I was going to look like, I didn't know exactly what I was going to do. But the one thing I was trying to tell myself is like, this is your chance to reach out for some help.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:49

Yeah. So people who have that same tendency to think, oh, I should do this on my own. I should make a career change on my own. I should mow my lawn on my own. I don't know pick the thing in here. But we're talking particularly about pursuing an intentional career, which, strangely is, we all know this isn't really something like we're taught in college or anything else. But we all sort of think that we should do this on our own. So what advice would you give that person who's going through a bit of that I need to do this on my own?

Lisa Vu 17:20

I mean, it is worth it to look outside of yourself even if it's not involving another human being coaching you like looking whether that looks like resources or learning some more because I just don't feel like we're meant to take on something so big like this by ourselves. And there's just too much for one person, not to mention that there's just so much we've kind of been programmed or ingrained about what the job hunting process is. Unless you've made lots of different changes to your approach over your career, if you're going to be doing the same thing and especially doing it by yourself, you're probably not going to yield many changes. So yeah, I definitely highly advise people, and I get for some things there's an investment component that's totally understandable. But it's so worth looking at least getting an additional perspective or just learning something that you don't know already about approaching career change. I highly advise it. Yeah, you're not weak. You're not like, I just don't know where that came from where you have to do something yourself. But yeah, I don't know. I think it's this culture of independence that something about like, you should be able to do this on your own. But even if you could, you don't get that outside perspective. Because there's such a huge world of different careers and career types and all these aspects that go into a career like how are you going to do that on your own? Whether it's doing what you know already and whatnot.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:09

Yeah. So this is one of the thing that I wanted to just ask you about, you've mentioned it a couple of times, just about getting outside your comfort zone. And when you initially got into your ICP, being an ideal career profile, which behind the scenes is a simple tool that we use in order to begin to build what we call our ideals and minimums or rather a checklist of what you might need for your next career change. Anyhow, so you came up with some of those hypotheses that, yeah, more than one hypothesis that you wanted to explore. And I wanted to ask you first about it after you got past that stage and got into reach out that seemed to be an area that was very outside your comfort zone, what made it outside your comfort zone, and what helped with that?

Lisa Vu 20:08

I think it was... So what my struggle was, I would get just get ahead of myself when I'm thinking about who to reach out to, it was easy for me to reach out to my friends who were in the career path I was exploring. But, you know, I needed to reach out to beyond that. And so that's where I got kind of in my head, like, thinking ahead and trying to predict like, "Oh, they're gonna think this and that", and it just kind of getting in my own way versus just doing it. And so I think what really clicked for me to do, it was like, this is just experimenting, and I started thinking kind of like, a researcher. So you're testing hypotheses, like you said, and there's no outcome you're aiming towards, like in research. I mean, of course, you might have things that you might be leaning towards happening, but you don't let that affect you, that's a bias, you know, what that affects your outcome. What your outcome is your outcome. And that's what it is. And it's not right or wrong, you know, and so, I don't know, if something just clicked where I just gotten to a research mind and was like, if it ends up being something that doesn't work, then it doesn't work. And that's where I find out and, I know that's what's been in your boot camp. And that's what been practiced with the method and coaching, but it just didn't click until kind of then. And then that's where I started just firing off some messages on LinkedIn even, I was a little nervous about that. I'm like, I haven't really done a cold message on LinkedIn before. And I think emailing people within my academic institution because it's really big. And then, of course, as predicted, or as you know, said, the actual interactions were pretty good. People were very willing to talk. And I think looking back, that was what I was a little nervous about, like, "Am I bothering them?" But most people were really willing to talk. And I would say, it was the practice of doing that that led me to my job, rather than the connections, but also, what I learned along the way helped for me to strike out anything like okay, maybe I don't want to do this.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:34

What's an example of something along the way where it came up and you're like, "Yeah, this isn't right for me."? But obviously, it sounds like now you look at that as great feedback. But what's the example of a time where that happened?

Lisa Vu 22:49

Oh, there's a role I was looking into. It was like a protocol manager because one of the things I uncovered or was trying to during my whole process was, "What do I like to do?" So I was like, I actually like to write up protocols, which as nerdy as it sounds, but it's just like, I just like doing stuff like that and writing things that or making resources for people on informing them how to do things or understand something better. So, there was a role specifically for that. But then after I talked to a couple of people, I learned that that role, at least at my institution, has been transformed to something that's more supervisory, which I didn't really want, at least not more than a couple of people. And this would be part of my job. And I didn't want that. So I was like, "Okay, maybe not that."

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:43

That's amazing. That's really cool. Because it sounds like you initially thought, "Hey, this could be something that is great for me." It seems to fit at a phase level. And then as you got deeper in, as you had some of those conversations it sounded like, then you start to get in indications that, nope, this is... yes, maybe that stuff is there. But also included as a whole bunch of other things that are really don't want.

Lisa Vu 24:11

And what drew me to it was, I probably would have been a good candidate because it's familiar in certain ways. And I think I have the background for it. And I was told, as such from the people I talked to, but yeah, that was something that was hard to tell myself because I think that was something I realized about myself, whatever I'm very qualified for, or seems easiest to get, in a way, that's what I get drawn towards, but without really questioning whether does this fit with what I said I want.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:42

That's really amazing because you, one, recognize that about yourself, which is huge just on its own, but also, you were able to turn... can stop pursuing this particular opportunity. And so I'm curious what caused you to be able to say, "No, this is just not for me."? When every time in the past you would have been like, "Yeah, I should keep going."

Lisa Vu 25:12

I think it's, I mean, the ICP and all the work I've been doing, and really the investment. I was just like, I want to make sure it's very aligned, and not just take the easy way out. So I think knowing that, well, especially the parts I didn't like about the role, as tempted as I was to kind of ignore it, I knew I just wouldn't have liked it. Or that was just an aspect that I wanted to listen to that. And also, because I'd been in my role, the role I was in while I was looking for a job for so long, I wanted it to be very, as aligned as I could be, not necessarily a perfect job, but just aligned in the ways I wanted it to be. So I didn't want to leave my role for just the next thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:03

When you say that it was partially the ICP, what about the ideal career profile helped in that situation?

Lisa Vu 26:14

Just all the areas, the aspects of the career that I had listed out that I try and remember what they are, but that I wanted on.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:24

Example of one minimum here. And this comes from Megan on our team who you got to work with. She said, you know, having at least one other person who understands my job role, and I can go to with questions, that'd be an example of your minimum, you must have that at all costs. But then your ideal will look like having more than that having at least three people who understand my job role and I can collaborate with.

Lisa Vu 26:47

Yeah, because in my past roles, I was the only one that knew what I knew. I mean, I am like that to an extent, at least where I work now, there's at least another project manager who may work on different projects, but she has the knowledge of being one already where I work, and I can go to her. And that's what I wanted. But it didn't have before. It was very lonely in past roles to really feel like I didn't have anyone to go to. I'm sure if I really put more energy into it, I could have found something. But like kind of talking about conditioning before I felt in a way that I couldn't really depend on my environment to help me out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:31

So let's talk about that. Because one of the things that I think you did very well, and I know Megan agrees, was making some mindset shifts. And one in particular, and was realizing that you could trust yourself after you had some of those past experiences, past roles that had constantly made you doubt yourself. So I'm curious, what did that look like for you? What did that mindset shift or some of the mindset shifts look like? And how did those help?

Lisa Vu 28:03

I would say one of the first ones was when her and I were thinking of what two different paths to explore. And this was one of the reasons I signed up for the coaching because I was like, I literally don't know what to put in my search engine. Like, what I know. So a little part of it was like, "What do I put in there?" I mean, it's more than that. But she asked me, let's think of four or five different paths, or jobs or whatever that you'd want to explore. And I came up with two or three. And that was hard for me to come up with the rest because I was just in my head about what I could or, quote-unquote, was allowed to pursue. And so her encouragement of kind of just thinking outside it, even if there was just no chance of me, you know, being, I don't know, that's me kind of channeling the voice I had back then, you know, like, I only wanted to explore if I knew there was a chance of being good at it or having some success with it, or some degree of success. But coming up with those things to put in a search engine or ideas of pathways to explore, I think that was a big mindset shift. Because one of the things I was interested in exploring was just the field of human-centered design, user experience, a lot of different words for it, but you know, and even like the word design kind of was limiting to me at the time because I was like, I'm not a designer or just the way I thought about it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:45

I can never be a designer.

Lisa Vu 29:48

Yeah, but that was what helped me even exploring it. You know and so, I've talked to a lot of people who are in the field, like friends and otherwise and I learned that it was a very good fit for what my interests were and my skills. And the cool thing about human-centered design is it's not so exclusive where maybe certain roles are but like any, I feel like just like public health, a lot of different industries or a lot of different fields can go alongside it or utilize it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:24

Yeah. So that's interesting. So what I hear you saying is that, initially, the way that you were thinking about even paths to explore, you found yourself kind of qualifying those or not allowing you to explore and so you were trying to come up with, use the example, like, I'm trying to come up with four or five different paths, but you could only come up with two or three, because you were editing out all the rest of those that actually could have been a good fit. And then, that's fascinating. What advice would you give to someone else who finds themselves doing the same thing? Because I think that's pretty common. It's pretty common for us to say, "Oh, I could never do that." Or, "Oh, but that's only for people *insert*." What advice would you give to people who are thinking that?

Lisa Vu 31:14

I mean, I think this is something along the lines of what Megan told me, just give yourself permission to just explore, I'm trying to remember how she said it, but just exploring really without an outcome. And that's hard, I will say that. But to just not think of the outcome, which the angles to get a job, right? But once I started not thinking about getting a job, then it became a lot more exploratory, more creative. And it kind of got me a little bit more in touch with just the creative side of my brain to in this process, just like how important that is. And I just never use it in terms of my work and stuff. And just allowing yourself to not be attached to, which is hard. Because when I was exploring, I would still automatically go to the careers page of a company and see what roles, and then I would do the qualifying thing like, "Oh, this would be good." But I will say for me, it took a while to break out of that. So...

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:18

It's that conditioning, right?

Lisa Vu 32:19

Yeah. So I started with how about we don't look at the careers tab or...

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:24

Stay away from careers stab at all costs.

Lisa Vu 32:26

Yeah. And then eventually, when I let myself look at the careers tab again, let's not look for roles that are exactly what you do already, or, you know, let's open or even just opening roles that were completely different than what I was used to, was even that little thing was kind of a big thing for me to just let myself look at something like literally just look at it. I'm not committing to it. You know.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:57

You know, I will tell you in 10 years, I have never heard anybody talk about that one piece of it the same way that you just did. Like the, we want to change. We recognize that we don't have exposure to other types of roles, jobs, needs, professions, all the things, and yet when we go to a careers page, we will only allow ourselves to look at what we've already done or what we're already familiar with. Isn't that crazy? It happens a lot all the time.

Lisa Vu 33:34

Yeah. Megan even said, "Don't look at research positions", and I did anyways. It was just so... Part of it just to get on my system, like, I have this urge. I just got to do it. So it's just yeah, it's just kind of wild to like, kind of uncover that about me what I'm just so used to leaning towards.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:56

Yeah. That's fascinating. And great job too, recognizing that. I think Megan had said this, but I'm getting the degree of which your self-awareness extends. And that's pretty cool because you can't really make the type of change that you did without having a prerequisite level of self-awareness. Otherwise, it's really difficult and nearly impossible to be able to do and it's already hard enough with this.

Lisa Vu 34:25

Yeah. Well, that's pretty great to hear. And yeah, I look back and I'm like, "Wow, I'm glad I was able to catch that."

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:34

Tell me a little bit about what was on your ICP that you remember, that you recall, or what are the pieces that you had identified that you wanted that now you feel like you have in your newest role?

Lisa Vu 34:50

I mean, the one that you pulled out as an example about having at least one other person who has at least some shared knowledge of my role that was pretty helpful. Just being in, I don't know how to, I think I put something like people I would want to go to lunch with or something. Which, you know, if you asked me before all this, it would have just sounded like such a small detail. But after being in roles that were just so isolating, it just became a very important thing to me. Yeah, it still feels weird to say out loud. And it's not like my top thing. But it's just something that is important also. Because everything else could be great, but if I'm not interacting with people, and I'm an introvert.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:43

You and me both.

Lisa Vu 35:46

Like, it just really, yeah, it just really impacted my mental health to not get the interaction, even those little interactions with people. Again, I don't feel like I could be best friends with people at work. And I definitely feel like there has to be... I have my boundaries and stuff. But just having those little interactions, especially if support and things like that, they're very important.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:10

I think one of the things that stood out to me was, a lot of your strengths feed into collaboration. And I know you've mentioned collaboration a couple of times, but it sounded like that was pretty important. And even though you're an introvert, even though you can do analytical really well, and you can do research really well, being isolated, obviously not a great thing for you, but more so, having the right type of collaboration is amazing for you, that creates a much, much better situation. It sounds like the right people to collaborate with as well, the people that you could do the lunch with.

Lisa Vu 36:46

Yeah, people who care to check in and things like that, which again, it doesn't sound like much, but it's just like when you don't have that it can really impact you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:56

Yeah. What else have we not covered here that you would want people to know? Either about your process or about anything else that we haven't covered.

Lisa Vu 37:05

I think we hit a lot of major points. I will say that, and this is what I've been telling people like one of my biggest takeaways of what I learned about myself, and through this process, or what was uncovered, anyways, was that like, I think I became very apathetic in my last job where I was at for seven years. And that was just such a dangerous place to be. And it's just so subtle, too, which makes it really hard. And so I think, once I realized I just was at a point where I just don't care. That just really, or maybe I don't care as much as I want to. It creeps in. And it really impacted my mental health, impacted other parts of my life where, I don't know how to fully explain, but yeah. So I would say, if anyone ever gets to that point, I mean, there's a lot of important things about a job like finances and benefits. Yes, I understand that. But after considering all that, it kind of doesn't matter what other aspects of your job may seem good if you kind of don't care anymore. So I would say at the very least, it's a sign to kind of reflect on that or reflect what might be behind it. So if I were ever feel that again, then I know now it's a sign to look into it more.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:37

Hey, if you love this story where we talk through and walk you through step by step how someone got to more meaningful work, then you'll absolutely love our audiobook– Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. I even got to narrate it, which was so fun. And something that I really enjoyed doing and will definitely do for future books as well. But it also contains firsthand accounts from career changers on how they made the move to more meaningful work, just like we include on the podcast here. And actually, it's been called the best audiobook experience ever by some reviewers. You can find those reviews, and the book itself on Audible, Amazon, or any other place where books are sold. Seriously, just pause this right now and go over to Amazon or Audible or wherever you want and download it. You can be reading it and started on your career change in literally seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:32

Now, here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week right here on Happen to Your Career.

Speaker 3 39:37

Do you even want to be at this place? Or is this just a job for you? If it's just a job, that's fine, but you're probably going to want a new one relatively quickly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:48

When you're making a career transition, how will you recognize what is actually a great fit for you? We get many questions from Happeners all over the world, which we love, but I've never actually had anyone ask me that question. And in many ways, it is the question. The simple answer is, well, unless you've done some certain work, you probably won't. We've had so many clients that have had the same story over and over again. They take many months to define what they want, they experiment to validate that that's actually what they want in the real world. And then miraculously, it seems to appear out of nowhere. Here's what actually happens. The opportunities were there the whole time. But if you don't know what to look for, the same opportunity that might already be there just passes you by, like, two ships in the night. And you never realized that it was so close to you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:46

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Angie Griffith 00:01

I didn't know all the things that I could do and trying to figure out what that would be was a real struggle for me.

Introduction 00:16

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:41

If you are looking for work that truly fits you, you might already know we usually recommend against job boards. Why? Well, creating your ideal role normally requires a lot of customization to fit your needs. And you're not likely to find that on job boards. But what if you could make job boards work for you? What would that look like? What if you could find a role that seems like it was already custom-made for you, stand out amongst hundreds, if not thousands of applicants, and then get a job offer after just one interview?

Angie Griffith 01:13

I wrote a cover letter that really was from the heart. I thought, well, why not? I'm gonna just say what I feel. And it got me an interview.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:27

That's Angie Griffith. Angie had been unsatisfied with her career for a really long time. In fact, she hadn't never really known what it was to feel fulfilled by work or to fully enjoy her career. She liked some aspects of her jobs throughout the years. But she wanted to find a job that contained all of the things that she enjoyed. So she began working with a coach. Angie did a fantastic job of uncovering what she really needed and what she really wanted out of a career. And this was not an easy thing for. She did such a great job that she was able to recognize when she found that perfect fit and saw it listed on Indeed.com. Of course, we just mentioned a moment ago that we usually recommend staying away from LinkedIn jobs or Indeed.com. They're not bad companies. They're great organizations. But Angie had done so much work learning what she wanted and needed out of her ideal role, that she was not only able to recognize a perfect fit, but she was able to market herself in a way that she stood out to the company and landed her an interview really quickly. And Angie was right. This organization agreed she was the perfect fit and hired her after just one interview. So now let's get into the conversation so you can hear the authentic work that Angie did to go from a career in the financial industry to doing work she loves in employment services.

Angie Griffith 02:48

So really, I guess it kind of started with I went to school to get my bachelor's degree and I chose finance, which I chose because you know, we are living in a small town, there's opportunities for banks and in different types of industry. So I chose that and I was pretty good at it. But it was like the least social job in the entire world, which is so not who I am. Or it was all about sales. And I do not like sales unless I really believe in the product. So that's where I kind of started. And I didn't obviously know this at the time. But when my first job after school, I worked at a bank, and they pushed the sales parts so much and that we had these goals that we had to reach. And what I didn't like was the fact that no one cared about the customer. It was all about making the sale. And I had a customer come in who got put into something that was totally wrong for her. She got tucked into something that wasn't a good fit. And she ended up losing money, I was like, I can't do this. I can't push sales on to somebody who doesn't know better. I can't do that. I couldn't force somebody just so that I could make my goals or do something that was to me unethical.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:30

Yeah, I can fully appreciate that. And I've had similar experiences too. And it sounds like that was a pretty formative experience for you. What happened then?

Angie Griffith 04:39

Well, I worked into an Events Coordinator position, and I really enjoyed it. I was out at trade shows, I was making reservations for our commissioners and party planning, and all of those types of things that I just loved. But when we were slow, we were slow. And that's basically where I started thinking I love certain aspects of this job, but I'm bored out of my mind. So that's kind of when I decided I needed to do something different and I just had experienced, you know, more in financial things. And we moved. And I was commuting back and forth to this job because I could work on my hybrid schedule, so partially from home. And that's when I decided when I ended up googling podcasts, and this is how I came across your podcast, and I started listening to it on my way back and forth. And I was like, "Oh, I love this." It was so inspiring to me. And I'm like, I kept up on all of them, I went to back ones that I hadn't listened to. And I decided before winter, I needed to make a change that I couldn't go back and forth. It just wouldn't work out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:11

So then let me ask you about that decision point. And when you made that decision that you needed to make a change, what prompted, what occurred to you, or what took place? Was there one thing that you remember that led up to that or where you're like, "Ah, I have to do this."?

Angie Griffith 06:33

Well, after listening to the podcast as often as I did, I realized that I just wasn't really thriving in what I wanted to do with my life. And I know, periodically throughout my career, I had felt that way. But I didn't know exactly what it was that I was looking for. And that's pretty much what prompted me to get coaching is that I just, I knew that I could do more, I knew that my strengths were more in a social aspect. And finance wasn't cutting it. It was worrying and not social unless you're doing sales. But I didn't like that. So that's kind of where I started. The journey is just, I knew that I wanted to do something different. I wanted to make a difference in someone's life, I wanted it to feel good at the end of the day, I want it to feel good at the end of the day that I was helping someone and I know, you know, in the podcasts all the time, everybody's kind of helping someone in some indirect way. But I wanted to help people in a more direct way and more one-on-one and group. And that's kind of what I found.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:58

That's amazing. That is absolutely amazing. So tell us about what is your role now. And then let's talk about, like, what are the pieces that you were looking for, learned you were looking for that line up really well.

Angie Griffith 08:13

Okay, so now I'm an employment services coordinator. And I help disabled people find employment. And the disability can be anything from physical to mental. There's a very wide range of the disabilities and I determine with them what kind of jobs they want to be in, whether we can find a fit for them. And then we work with businesses, networking with different businesses and trying to find good fits for these people. And it is very rewarding to me, I get to work one-on-one with my clients, I get to when they do get jobs, I go and I support them at their work. And the goal is to get them self-sufficient, but we support them until they feel comfortable with their role and can work on their own. So it's fabulous.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:22

That's amazing. It also is not lost on me that the pieces where you're not only interacting one-on-one in the way that you had said that you wanted to. But also you get to go out into the community and it sounds like continue to build relationships with either business owners or people who are in charge of activities or any number of other things and one of the things that has stood out to me about you since you lived in Moses Lake at one point and you moved to Spokane, we got to meet up a couple of times for coffee. And what stood out to me is that you are… amazing really doesn’t do it justice. But you're amazing at being able to interact with other people and be outgoing and that you sort of thrive in that type of situation and just being around people in ways that I think other people find really challenging. That's fun for you. And you do a phenomenal job at it. So it's really cool.

Angie Griffith 10:28

Thank you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:29

Yeah, absolutely. It's really cool to be able to see you get into this situation that really leverages this thing that you sort of do anyways whether you're getting paid for it or not, that's fun.

Angie Griffith 10:41

Oh, it's so much fun. It's so enjoyable. I come home and I've told my husband, I said, "I feel like I'm playing." Like, it's so easy for me and the situation. And I love the client and I just have so much fun.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:05

That is really cool. I also know that since we got to meet a couple of times along the way, that getting there was not always as fun as that.

Angie Griffith 11:16

No, that part wasn't fun.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:18

Well, let's talk about that. When you, let's go back for a moment. You know, there was that point in time where you had decided, okay, like, I need to make a change, I need to do something about this. You had been listening to the podcast, now you're on the podcast. So that's really fun, that's full circle. But at this point in time, you had been listening to the podcast, made that decision, and then started the process of making your change. What surprised you along the way, or what was more difficult than what you thought it would be?

Angie Griffith 11:50

I would say that I didn't really know what was out there. You know, being in Moses Lake, the agriculture community, which I love, but I didn't know all the things that I could do, and trying to figure out what that would be was a real struggle for me. And even coming up with my ideal career profile. Every time I do a draft, then it'd be like, okay, dig deeper. I'm like, I thought I was digging deeper. Okay, well try this again. And I kept, you know, I kept on and kept on. And it hasn't really been about the money to me. I really, I mean, obviously, there were minimums, but it really was about the job satisfaction. And it was really hard for me, I went out and I did the things I was supposed to do. I was networking, I was talking to people, I was those things that were easy for me, that was great. Figuring out what I wanted to do was a completely other story. I struggled with that. And for a while, I was going on the path of HR, an engagement specialist, but then after talking to some people in that industry, it's so, what you have to deal with, you know, harassment things, and somebody I met with said something to me, and I was just like, "Oh." I was thinking I don't want to do that. That would be horrible. I wouldn't want to be the bad guy in situations, I wouldn't want to do that. So I was like, "Okay, well, I don't want to do that." So now what? Now where am I going? And I kept gravitating towards kind of helping people with employment ironically, when I was trying to figure out my own path. It's like, I don't want people to have to go through this, you know, I don't want people to have to be like, "Oh, I don't have a clue." And I wanted to help people work on their strengths. And I did kind of keep gravitating towards that kind of role. And I did do a lot of Indeed searching even though that's not really the path for HTYC, that's not usually the best path. But Ben and I talked and it was working for me. There was one particular job that I had applied for at a place that I wanted to work. I loved what their website said their culture was and all of that. And I went to the business, I ended up talking to the person who was doing the hiring. And I told her, I said, "Well, I wanted to talk to you first and ask you some questions because I don't know for sure if I want to apply." And so I did talk to her and I did apply. I did not get the job. I had interviewed with this particular business well on for three different positions and never got the job. And it was very disappointing. So I really, you know, I really struggled with that, and sometimes keeping on track with what I was doing with Ben, I'm pretty structured, I like structure. But then I got kind of overwhelmed. And I take care of the finances in our family of course.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:35

The finance degree, right?

Angie Griffith 15:39

Yes. So I'm like, "Okay, I'm not working now." Because that was one of the decisions I had made. I was just, I had quit a job about two or three weeks after I got it after I started working with Ben, because it was just a paycheck. And I couldn't do it. I hated it from the beginning, I knew I wasn't going to thrive in this industry. And I talked with my husband, we could manage on one paycheck for a while. And that was scary to me. Because I'm very, very structured. And that was hard. And then I started feeling after a while, okay, I'm not getting a job. And then I was getting panicked.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:35

So you had left the one role, which to you very much felt just like just a paycheck, you're just there for the paycheck. And I think we've established a pattern of just being there for the paycheck doesn't feel that great to you. And it's difficult in many different ways. And at the same time, you made the decision to leave. And I want to ask you about that. Because my understanding is, when you grew up, you grew up in a family that very much felt like, "Hey, you get your job, you stay there forever, you always work, you always do the things and you always have income coming in." and that's just the thing that you do. Tell me a little bit about that.

Angie Griffith 17:22

Yes, that is correct. You know, basically, you be thankful for what job you have, and you stick with it forever. I mean, there's no such thing as job satisfaction, as far as my parents were concerned, you know. So that was a hard thing for me because I've always grown up that you have to have a job, you have to be bringing in income. Work is work, it's not supposed to be fun. And, you know, it's that kind of attitude. So that was hard on me because those are very instilled things in me to, you know, to work all the time. So that was definitely my upbringing. And it really, I had to overcome a lot of beliefs relating to that for sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:16

What's an example of that?

Angie Griffith 18:18

I would say that it showed up kind of midway through my coaching because I started feeling, you know, Ben told me, he's like, "You have to let go of some of these things. That you should have job satisfaction. That is okay to want more. That's what we kind of strive for." And you know, obviously, these days, it's a little bit more prevalent. People do want job satisfaction. And it was hard. Ben had me read a book about kind of overcoming your fears. Because I was scared. I was scared of, one, failing at the next role that I would come across, I was very afraid that I was going to fail and that I would just continue this cycle of not being happy with my job.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:12

I remember talking briefly about that book with you. What was the name of it?

Angie Griffith 19:17

It was called "Taming Your Gremlin". And it really kind of went into your fears and not letting them overtake you. And that trying to understand when it was happening when your beliefs were wrong, and recognizing that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:41

Did it help? What helped about it for you? What stood out for you? What was the helpful part?

Angie Griffith 19:47

Well, I have a lot of self-doubt and beliefs that I wasn't capable of doing this. And so it really has helped me when I started my negative thought process. It was like, "Oh, that's not true." And so then I could rework it in my head to be like, "Yes, you can do this. And yes, it will be okay." And I've honestly even used that with some of my clients now where it's like, "That's not true, what's the worst that can happen, they don't hire you. It's not a big deal, then we keep searching."

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:30

That's fun. I think that's really fun for me that to get to see you go through this experience for yourself, move through some of the challenges of figuring out what you want, and then getting to use some of the things that you learned through the process to be able to help other people instantly. I think that is a really, really, I don't know if that does my heart good, Angie, that's pretty cool.

Angie Griffith 20:53

I think so too. I'm glad I went through it. I feel like I kind of needed to especially doing what I'm doing now. It's good because it's not easy. It's hard going through the process. And I had some really down times and, or Ben had to listen to meet cry a couple of times.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:13

Ben was totally there for it, totally there for it. And it's what we do, it's what we love to do. When we get to support people in that way and just show up for them, that is actually really fun for us, too. And, you know, much the ‘it's not right for everybody’, just like you were talking about HR, right? I worked in HR for a long time, and really enjoyed it. I not only didn't mind some of the harassment pieces, I actually felt like I was contributing when I got to work through some of those things and have a really positive outcome. And that also, I know, many people would hate doing that, like, just despise doing that. And that's totally okay. You know, one of the things I wanted to ask you about though is when you were going through this process, it sounds like the biggest challenges for you really were the mental side– the mental side being working through some of those things that you believed to be true, or some of the stories that you'd grown up with, or anything else. So my question is, what advice would you give for other people that are trying to change how they think about work and what they believe about work?

Angie Griffith 22:26

I would say, just do some exploring, you don't have a negative mindset. I know for myself I did have a negative mindset. And I don't know if where all that came from exactly. But it's okay to want more. And my advice would be if you're not happy, do something about it. If you're not happy in your work, or any area of your life, do something. Just take the steps to try something even if they don't work, at least you tried and you know that they don't work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:34

That's awesome. Let's talk about what led up to your getting this particular opportunity. So just take me through, like, what are the pieces that you did or that you experienced that then led to getting this offer and opportunity?

Angie Griffith 23:26

Well, going through the interviews on the place that I thought I absolutely had to work at and not getting the job, that was really hard. But I, you know, Ben and I talked, it was like, "Okay, well, it's not meant to be." You know, everyone probably believes in some sort of higher power. And it's like, well, if it's not meant to be, it's not meant to be, and that's okay. So I just kept moving forward. And I ended up finding this job on Indeed, which is very similar to the place that I wanted to work initially. And I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to just apply for this. And I wrote a cover letter that really was from the heart. I thought, well, you know, why not? I'm gonna just say what I feel. And it got me an interview. I mean, pretty quickly, like I applied. And two days later, I had a phone call for an interview. And when I went for my interview, it just felt so easy and so good. And the person who interviewed me was easy to talk to and we talked about the backgrounds of the other job coaches, and none of them had experience doing this and they chose people purposefully that didn't have this kind of experience or a social service degree or that type of industry that they didn't want them to come from that industry because they were, they wanted to think outside the box, they wanted some people who would think outside the box for the position. And after I left, it was right before the fourth of July, and they knew I was going to be gone and out of cell service. And I got a message on my way back, that they wanted to offer me the job. And I was so excited. And I told my husband before, I said, "If I don't get this job, I am going to be crushed." It just felt so good. The vibe, everything. And I ended up getting it and it met all of my wants and needs. I get to work from home part of the time, I get to work with clients part of the time. I get to work with employers part of the time. I get to work, party planning, or helping individuals at our classes. And it's so much fun.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:22

That is really wonderful. And I love the part, particularly about how, two things, and to be clear, a lot of the times for people it doesn't make sense for what they're after to apply. However, you know, I'm pretty familiar, not just with your situation, but Ben was keeping me in the loop the whole way too. And I really think it did make sense here. One, because you had already done the work to identify what could potentially be a great fit. And you could see ample evidence at this point that this was an organization, this was an opportunity that could potentially be an amazing fit. And then you did something to separate yourself out from everyone else, versus just like submitting the application or whatever else. What do you think it was about that particularly cover letter that caused them to say, "Yeah, I absolutely want to take a chance on this person."?

Angie Griffith 27:23

Well, I basically explained that I am looking for a career to help people. And I felt that this really aligned with who I am. And that I really taught from the heart in my cover letter. I totally put all my emotion into this letter. And I do think that's what got me the interview because I made it very clear that I thought that this would be such a rewarding opportunity. And then talking in the interview, it turned out that that's their philosophy as well. And part of what in my ideal career profile, I wanted an organization that was a team. And this organization is a team, we're not competing for clients. If you know somebody is looking for this type of job, and you know somebody, you go out and you help them find it even if it isn't your client. And my supervisors, they don't even like to be called boss because they think it's just a team. We're a team, we do things together, we help each other. And that was a huge thing that I wanted. That was pretty much top of the list of my ideal career profile. I want a culture where you can discuss things and you don't feel like it's like, "Okay, sure, you want to do it this way. But no, we can't do that." It's very much we have the autonomy to do to help our clients the best we can and how we want to do it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:22

I guess when you look back on the entire situation, and you think about the difference between the opportunity that you're in now, versus some of the other opportunities in the past, what differences stand out the most for you that are making it particularly good?

Angie Griffith 29:44

I would say that my previous employment, I pretty much liked most of my jobs that I've been in. I've always liked the people, most of them. Not all of them.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:01

Almost all the people.

Angie Griffith 30:04

But I wasn't able to make decisions on my own, how I saw fit. And I really like that I can do that now and there's such a variety of what I'm doing that I'm not bored. In most of my jobs, I've gotten bored. I need to have variety and this provides all of that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:38

Hey, if you love this story where we talk through and walk you through step by step how someone got to more meaningful work, then you'll absolutely love our audiobook– Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. I even got to narrate it, which was so fun. And something that I really enjoyed doing and will definitely do for future books as well. But it also contains firsthand accounts from career changers on how they made the move to more meaningful work, just like we include on the podcast here. And actually, it's been called the best audiobook experience ever by some reviewers. You can find those reviews, and the book itself on Audible, Amazon, or any other place where books are sold. Seriously, just pause this right now and go over to Amazon or Audible or wherever you want and download it. You can be reading it and started on your career change in literally seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:33

Now, here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week right here on Happen to Your Career.

Speaker 3 31:39

I wasn't being overworked and burned out the same way that, you know, you typically hear people going through career changes or were very stressed at work. It made me feel even more alone and that even thinking like, "Oh, I shouldn't be complaining."

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:57

Is being bored a good enough reason to leave my job? We actually get asked this question quite often. And I'll say this first. You don't need to justify wanting to leave whether you're burned out and overstimulated or bored and under-stimulated, you deserve a career that fits you. But here's the thing, this question gets me thinking. Burnout is talked about a lot. I mean, 500 million results came up when I typed a burnout into Google. But the thing that's not talked about enough, and why many people feel so alone when they experience it is how being bored and unstimulated at work can be just as draining as burnout.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:43

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:01

When you think about leaving your current company, they often fall into one of two categories. Movie-worthy visions, lighting the office on fire while flipping the bird on the way out the door. Well, the building slowly crumbles behind you. Or the option number two, being worried that your boss and all the people you care about are going to feel as though you flip them the bird and burn down the building, leaving everyone in the lurch while you go on to take care of your own life. But what if there were a completely different way? What if you could have your boss help you find a new role? What if your boss and co-workers supported your efforts to make a change while simultaneously you worked to set everyone up for success? That way when you left, they know that they're well taken care of. Let's put this another way. What if you didn't have to worry about burning bridges at all? And what if you have the support of the people that you work with to cross over your new bridge? That bridge still remains and everybody wins.

Introduction 01:05

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:31

When I left Target, if you're not familiar with Target– it's a big box retailer here in the States. Anyhow, I gave two months' notice so that they could work on backfilling my position, and I could work on setting them up for success. In later organizations, I gave six months' notice. I trained my replacement, I helped my entire team to have a seamless transition. I even got my boss's support to not have to come in on certain days. It happened to be started out with Thursdays until noon so that I could work on my transition, and everybody knew about it, and it was okay. I know that sounds insane. But here's what I've learned. When you take care of the people around you, it invites them to reciprocate. To be clear, this isn't just me, we've duplicated this result with many of our clients all over the world, some of which you've heard on this podcast. Here's the thing though, if you want to get insane results, it requires a pretty big reframe to the question from, you know, how can you leave without burning bridges, which is where many people start, like, I just don't want to burn a bridge. And we need to ask a different question. A question like, "How could you leave while setting up your team, your organization, your co-workers, your clients, all the people that surround you for success when you leave? How could you set them up so that they were actually better off without you?" Wouldn't that be crazy, right? What if it could actually be a better situation for everyone involved? Well, usually, when I first pitch this idea to our clients, or our team pitches this idea to our individual clients, we have to sift through quite a few mental blocks before we can discuss how to get their boss to support their change. Let's spend a little bit of time talking about what stops people, what are some of those mental blocks. Well, as it turns out, many people view these two things as conflicting goals. And that's understandable. I completely get it. I've felt that way too. But I want you to take Michael's story for example. You might have heard him on our previous episode.

Michael 03:45

I landed at Sony, again, no plan, other than getting an accounting job at a studio. I then was there for 18 years. So started out as a senior financial analyst in September of 2001. And I left as a vice president of worldwide distribution finance in the beginning of 2019. And like I said, I never planned on any of this. But once I started at Sony, I could see that the more you can handle, the more they would throw at you. I was very fortunate to have some great bosses that really knew how to challenge you. And it just sustained me. It sustained me for almost 20 years. But at the end, it got to this point where the demands of the job were felt like 24/7 365. And for someone like me that is a perfectionist and didn't really realize that it just didn't work anymore, it got to the point where I physically couldn't keep myself going and mentally I was just overwhelmed all the time and just worried constantly about too many things and not able to fix anything perfectly or make anything work perfectly. It was not a good combination.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:57

Okay, Michael was a VP of Finance in California. And his health was deteriorating rapidly to the point where his doctor told him that he was going to die if he kept going and didn't do something about his job. Even then, he viewed himself as the only person who could do his role. If he left, that meant he was letting people down, particularly the people who reported to him. If he left, he felt like he might be giving up everything that he had worked so hard for. Okay, this is sort of understandable too, because if you delve a little bit into Michael's situation, a lot of his strengths have to do with turning chaos into harmony. And this situation that he was in very much created the opposite effect, especially when he thought about leaving.

Michael 05:44

I had a great team of people under me and that sustained me for years. And I felt like it was my duty to suffer through this job because I wanted to see my team advance, I wanted to see them get promoted, take on more responsibility, right. I think the last probably three years I was there, I was doing it out of a sense of duty to the people that worked for me, but I also have the sense of, and I think this is common for people who get burned out is you have this irrational sense of importance of the work, like I felt like if I'm not there, stuff is gonna fall apart. If I'm not there, no one else is going to be able to do these things, and they won't be perfect, and they won't be right, and they won't be on time. I have to keep going. And I did that until I physically couldn't do it anymore.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:35

So here's what I wanted to do, I want to give you an idea of what a path forward can look like. How that might sound, what could you say to your boss. Now, I want to share a bit of a prerequisite here. The reality is when we do this with our clients in the stories that you've heard on the podcast, every single time we're taking people's individual situations into account– the specific people that they're working with, how those people operate, identifying ways to best build trust with them. So I just want to acknowledge that it really does depend on each individual situation for the best ways to do this. In some cases, in a small amount of cases, we advise people not to do what you're going to hear about. But it really is case-dependent. So I just want to call that out upfront here. So what does it sound like to have this type of conversation with your boss? Well, you might go to your boss, initially, before the conversation and ask if you can talk to them about something important. By the way, this triggers them to think that it's an out-of-the-norm conversation, which is. It absolutely is. This is incredibly critical to the point where I felt the need to say incredibly because you don't want them to be surprised. Even if you're not telling them immediately what you want to talk about, you don't want them to be out of left field surprised. And you also want them to give a different level of attention to this request. They might ask if you can do it right away and tell them you'd really like to do it outside the office, or someplace that's abnormal, get someplace where you're not gonna get interrupted, that's going to be important too. And also asked for it at a later date, as well. Because a lot of people's tendencies are, "Yeah, well, we can just talk right now." And you can absolutely say, "You know, I'm not prepared to talk right now. It is important but I also want to make sure that we have time and space to talk about it. Don't worry, nobody's dying. But I do want to give it the space that it requires." So schedule something with them, get on their calendar, make sure that you're both going to be able to be there, and devote the time and attention. And then when you get there, here's how the conversation might sound. Initially, we want to lead with gratitude, "Hey, I want you to know that I have really, really enjoyed my time here. The last five years have been amazing. I have learned so much. I'm really appreciative for all the things you've done." And you can list some of those specific things that you actually appreciate in reality, then you might go on to say, "You know, I've come to the realization that even though there are promotional opportunities here, at some point, I'm planning to look outside the organization. I'm not talking about tomorrow. I'm not talking about a month from now. But at some point in the future, I know that it's going to come my time. And I really wanted to give you a heads-up. So it could be over the next year or so. But whatever time period, I really wanted to make sure that you are set up for success. The team here is set up for success, and that I'm set up for success as I make a change. So I'm coming to you to talk about this now because I wanted to ask your advice on what you see for how we can do this, how we can set you and the rest of the team and myself up for success. I really want to make sure that we've got a plan in place. I already have some ideas, but it's really important to me that I get your advice on this area." Okay, what you'll want to do is, you'll already want to have some ideas coming into this conversation about how you can set the team up for success, you may have already thought about who could be your backfill, you may have already thought about what would be the time period and resources it would take to train that person, you may have already thought about what projects to take on over the next six months or so or not to take on for that matter. And that is all going to be important because you want to have those in your back pocket to be able to suggest as you're going through this process. But first, it's most important to get their reaction and their advice, whoever your boss or whoever you directly report to, that person. Again, here's how that might sound like. It might sound like, "Even though I don't plan on leaving anytime soon, I really wanted to just have a conversation where I could get your advice on how to set us all up for success." That can be it. That can be a simple way to begin that conversation. Now the reason advice is important here. You've heard me use the word advice several times. Now, there's other ways to ask for it. But what's important is that when you ask for someone's advice, it immediately triggers a part of the brain where they're now thinking about how to solve this problem, they're immediately thinking about how they can help. And they're starting to think about it through the lens that you're asking. And what we've done here is we've now made them a partner in this versus having that done to them. So that's really important. When you ask this way, it helps trigger a collaboration as opposed to a conflict. Now they are your partner. Pretty cool, right? Okay, let's talk about some examples of what success might look like. We already acknowledged that it could be as simple as helping to identify and train your backfill. I've done that before, personally, in many situations multiple times. We've also had many of our clients do something similar, whether it's identifying somebody who's already there, whether it is taking the necessary steps to recruit, and then train, there's a lot of different ways that you can do that. Coming up with some specifics around timelines, and having thought about what that will take will ease the concerns and worries tremendously for your team for whoever you report to. Because if it feels like it's all going to be on them, that's not going to feel amazing. It's not gonna feel like success. So one of our clients went so far as to identify all the gaps and potential issues for what they thought could happen if he was no longer there and identified a potential solution for each one. Then when he had that conversation with his boss, and he got to the part where he said, "Hey, I'd like to talk to you about how we could set the team up for success for whatever point I do actually leave." The boss actually didn't have any advice at that point. He was kind of flabbergasted and surprised. And as so then our client at that time said, "May I share with you some ideas that I've already thought of?" And then he proceeded to go through each one and recommend the rough time frame, the resources it might take to implement, and how he might be able to do so. So if the boss thought that there was any intent to abandon the post, that very quickly disappeared along with the proposed plan. Once you and your boss have a plan that you both feel good about, then you can talk about, "Well, how do we share this news? And at what point in time do we share this news with co-workers or clients or other people that you might be involved with?" And then it can be that type of partnership, again, where you're acting as a partner, as well as they're acting as a partner for you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:19

I want to give you some things to watch for in this conversation. First of all, let's talk about when to have this conversation. I mentioned earlier, it's important to not have it during a time period where you're going to get interrupted. So for some people, it makes sense to have it in the afternoon or towards the end of the day as things are wrapping up. For other people, it needs to be a right away thing. You'll want to assess your situation. And I would highly, highly, highly encourage you to get help from an expert in this if you plan to have this type of conversation. There will be things that you are not considering. Let me tell you a story of the first time I tried to have this conversation. Let's go into the story first. I got fired. Here's what I said. I said, "I don't think I'm the right person for the job. I don't think I should have taken it." And yes, I know that that sounds ridiculous. And I'm sure you'll do much better than that attempt I made when I was 23 years old. However, it doesn't change the fact that when we work with people, and they have these types of challenging and vulnerable discussions and conversations, what they usually come up on their own, like the conversation that they're usually coming up with on their own, it usually isn't the most helpful version that could be delivered to your boss, your co-workers, or anyone else that you actually want to strengthen the relationship with, as opposed to burn the bridge. So this is some pretty highly advanced level career maneuvering. And I really do suggest taking a partner on this. And, you know, obviously, this is something we do all the time for our clients. But if you don't want to partner with a career coach, I would definitely partner, or at a minimum, with a mentor and somebody who understands human dynamics, psychology, as well as can coach you through having this level of a conversation, because there's a lot of things to get right here. And it sounds really simple when I laid it out earlier. And it doesn't have to be a complicated conversation at all. But we want to consider all the factors before going into do so. If you need someone to help you think through how other people are going to view this and push you and find ways that you can truly be helpful to them and set them up for success, don't hesitate to contact our team, we can absolutely do that. But I want to share with you when these types of conversations are not appropriate. Particularly when you have a very desperate or toxic relationship with your boss. I have been involved in situations where we've been able to make that work but it usually is abnormal, and it usually requires a high degree of tenacity and finesse in order to make that type of situation work where you're having this conversation, you're getting support from your boss, but still have a desperate or toxic relationship. It's unusual to make that work, I'll say. Another situation would be when the standard in your organization is always, not sometimes, but always to send people out the door as soon as they mentioned leaving, there are a number of organizations and even industries where that is the case. It may not be the right situation to have this type of conversation. Or when you have a merger that's not finalized with what separation packages will be happening, and you haven't already gotten written specific agreements for those separation packages. Although this can actually be... this situation can be a unique opportunity on its own, we've been able to help people speed up those types of packages in a variety of different ways or negotiate those packages as the merger is happening. It's not always possible, but sometimes it is. Okay. I want to share that we've tried this strategy with our clients. The strategy where I'm describing getting support from your boss, and your team and helping them be successful. So far, we've never had it not work, just flat out not work. It doesn't mean there aren't challenges that pop up along the way. It doesn't mean everything goes perfectly. But I should know that that's because many of these clients tend to be higher than average with relationship skills. So there's an element of self-assessment that needs to take place first– are you a people person? Do you care about people before you're employing this strategy in your desire to leave? Also, you really can't employ this strategy from a place of desperation. Instead, I really encourage you to only consider this if you really legitimately care and want to take care of the other people, that's when it's highly appropriate. And when you have a great relationship with the people who are around you, that's a perfect time to be able to have this type of discussion, even though it might be scary to do so. Here's what actions you can take now. If you're ready to leave in the next six months, I would suggest working with someone to build your plan to have that conversation with your boss, including a script, rehearsing, and planning for contingencies or things that could go wrong in the conversation. This could be a friend who's really good at this stuff, or certainly of course a career coach on our team. I want you to also be prepared for the mental blocks that come along with the strategy. This brings out everything, it brings out everything about the closet, all the skeletons, and everything. It can be a really scary conversation even if you're in an amazing situation and habit. But I want you to know that setting your team, your organization, your co-workers, or clients, whoever it is up for success when you leave is the best possible solution for everyone involved. It really is. You never know what your career future holds, and you might cross paths with them in the future. Let me know what you think of this episode, we may consider doing more like this style. Tell me what worked for you, what didn't work, and what you'd like to know more about. How do you do that? It's easy. Drop me an email– Scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:42

Hey, if you've been listening to our episodes here at Happen to Your Career and you want to make an intentional career change to much more meaningful work, and have it neatly laid out into an organized framework, well, guess what? We actually have that available for you in the Happen to Your Career book. It's available on Amazon, Audible, anywhere else where you get your books. You'll learn about the five hidden obstacles stopping your career change, how to figure out what truly makes you happy with your career, and what brings you more happy more often, and more importantly, how to transition to a much more fulfilling career and life. You can find the book on Amazon, Audible, anywhere where books are sold. By the way, people are particularly loving the audiobook, which you can access right now in seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:30

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up for you next week, right here on Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 3 21:36

I didn't know all the things that I could do and trying to figure out what that would be was a real struggle for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:46

If you are looking for work that truly fits you, you might already know we usually recommend against job boards. Why? Well, creating your ideal role normally requires a lot of customization to fit your needs. And you're not likely to find that on job boards. But what if you could make job boards work for you? What would that look like? What if you could find a role that seems like it was already custom-made for you, stand out amongst hundreds, if not thousands of applicants, and then get a job offer after just one interview?

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:20

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Michal Balass 00:01

I got to that point, and I didn't want to give it up. But the thing of it is, is that I didn't want that.

Introduction 00:15

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:40

If you've ever hung on to something for way, way longer than you should, this episode is for you. Whether it's a job or a relationship, maybe it's something completely different. But all of them can leave you feeling completely drained. So the question becomes, "How can you motivate yourself to make the necessary change and then make sure that you move on to the first sign of trouble the next time? How can you learn from it?"

Michal Balass 01:07

I took the job. I didn't really think twice, because this is what my life graduate work was leading up to. Now looking back at it, I never really asked myself that questions of whether I wanted to do this.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:21

That's Michal Balass. Michal was working at a university in a good, but definitely not a great job, that really wasn't right for her. And since it was a good job, she knew things could be much worse. So she, of course, did what many people do and held on to the role way, way too long. Unsurprisingly, she began to burn out. Finally, when she hit her breaking point, as he calls it, she decided it was enough. And she absolutely had to make a change. This familiar story might relate to you or people that you know. But she shares really great insight on why she feels like she held onto that job, and how this career change completely shifted how she thinks about success. But I'm gonna let her tell you all about it. Here she is. She first goes back to where her career first began.

Michal Balass 02:16

I graduated with my PhD in 2011. But I left graduate school a year before I defended the big dissertation. And it's pretty typical when students get towards the end of their graduate career is that if they land a job that they leave and they come back and finish up those loose ends. And I got my first position, which was a temporary position at a college in upstate New York. And it was really a big deal because this was a couple of years after the recession. And universities were not hiring. And so I thought that, and I did very, very big. So I was in that position for two years, I went back, I defended my doctorate. And then quickly after that, I knew that my position was temporary, that I needed to find something more permanent. And so I went on the job market as academics say, and I had several interviews, but I got one offer. And this was what we call a tenure-line job academic job, which is, again, a huge deal because there's not a lot of those out there. And that job is in Maryland. And I was so enthusiastic, and I took the job. I didn't really think twice, because this is what my life graduate work was leading up to. Now looking back at it, I never really asked myself the questions of whether I wanted to do this. Right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:50

Interesting. Yeah. Which is normal, right? Many of us don't do that.

Michal Balass 03:55

Yeah. And I want to say that the job that I had up to two months ago with that university was great, but it wasn't the right fit for me. And I think I knew that the first maybe month when I started. But I talked myself out of it. I said, "Well, you know, it's just a new job, and this is what you've been working for." And the troubling thing about that is when you don't fit the role, you don't fit the job culture, you get burned out very easily and very quickly. And that's what happened. But I'm an ambitious person and I held on a lot longer than I should have. And what the breaking point was is that I had my son two years ago, and I didn't want to go back to work. And a lot of people told me, "Well because you just had a baby and you want to stay home." I didn't want to stay home. I was happy to sort of transition back into work. I just didn't want to go back to that role. And that what sparked the career transition. And I'm smiling, as I'm saying this, but as I was going through it, I was very nervous. I was very upset all the time. I didn't know what was next. I had a lot of fear in being able to leave.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:27

I want to come back to that fear here in just a second. But before that, I want to ask you about something that you said just a moment ago, which was that you felt like you hung on a lot longer than you should. And I'm curious, you know since you've recently been through this journey, through the cycle, why do you think ambitious and high-performing people do hang on so much longer? Because I hear that again, and again. So why do you think that is?

Michal Balass 05:55

I think because you're sort of working towards this goal. And in that process, what gets you through is that you want to achieve this goal. And that goal for me in graduate school was to get this tenure-line job. And what it means to get tenure in academia, it means that you work really, really hard a lot of hours for the first five years, then there's a committee of people who review all of your work. And if you get tenure, that means that you are permanent, you can't be fired, and you get a lot more flexibility and autonomy. And this is what as academics, a lot of academics works towards. So I got to that point and I didn't want to give it up. But the thing of it is, is that I didn't want that. I worked towards it but I didn't want it. But I said to myself, "Well, I worked so hard, right?" It's sort of like this sunk cost effect– you've invested so much time and to step away from it makes you feel like you wasted your time. And I don't think I wasted my time at all. There's a lot of value in a graduate education, there's a lot of value in any role that you take on. I think now I'm so much smarter to know that if something doesn't fit, or whatever your gut is telling you, you're smart enough to know that, "Hey, you know, I got here, and this is great. But I'm going to move on." So I think this is a pretty common phenomenon among people who are very ambitious. You've invested so much time. And you get to that point, and you look around and you're like, "Well, this is not really quite what I wanted. But I work so hard for it. Why would I give it up?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:36

Yeah. That's so interesting, though, that this really is something that can take a hold of so many of us, especially when we do work so hard for. I mean, you're a professor of psychology and very familiar with sunk costs and how that impacts your emotions toward different things. And I think that's proof positive that it's difficult to be able to see yourself and recognize that you're in it when you're in it to some degree. So I'm curious, then, fast forward a little bit, you ended up having a baby. And then all these people around you are telling you, well, why you were experiencing what you were experiencing. And it sounded like that really wasn't the case, because you did want to go back to work. And what happened from there? What else caused you to begin to look at this in a different way?

Michal Balass 08:29

So you might be able to relate to this, Scott. When you become a parent, your time becomes very, very different, right? And your priorities change. And one of the things that came about from not fitting in with the role that I was in is that I was frustrated and angry, and I wasn't enjoying my family life. And I didn't want to spend my time that I was away from my son doing something that wasn't fulfilling to me. So the idea in my mind was, well, I'm sending my son to this wonderful daycare, and he's getting a lot out of it. But that time that I'm away from him should be something that was very fulfilling to me. And so that sparked the process. And I was Googling career advice on Google. And I came across your podcast, and I started listening to it on my commute home. So it was after maybe one or two episodes that I listened to. I went on your website, and I filled out a request for coaching and I didn't know what to expect. And you so kindly emailed me back so quickly, and you said that you were happy to have a chat. And I was so nervous because in my mind, I was talking to this career change God, and I didn't know where I was going to go. And we talked about some options. And one of the best things that I've think that has happened to me in the past couple years, besides having my son, of course, was being introduced to Lisa Lewis. She is a wonderful, wonderful coach. And from there, it just sort of spiraled on. We had these really wonderful conversations, and she made me think about things that I never thought before. And one of the first questions she asked me to think about is, what are the things that are really true of me. And when I started generating that list, I sort of understood that there were a lot more sides to me than just this job. And that job is not what is supposed to identify me unless I wanted to. And that's how the process started.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:51

Let me ask you about that. Because I think that's another common theme that we see all the time. Even if we don't intentionally, and I know that has been true for me and I've heard the same thing from many of our clients and students, but even if we don't intend to, a lot of times, unintentionally, I think we find after the fact that we have allowed our career to be our identification, for lack of a better phrase. So I'm curious for you, as you started to untangle that, what was that process like for you? And then what did you start to realize instead?

Michal Balass 11:29

Well, that process was very hard. And I think I'm still going through it, especially because from day one when I started graduate school, I was groomed to be a professor. And so it became really entangled in my identity. And what really helped was to look for opportunities that were fulfilling that I could still identify with. And do I feel a little bit sad sometimes that I'm not a professor? Yes, but I don't think it's because of anything else besides the fact that it's this transition. And, you know, it's something from my past. But I, by no means, think that or regretted in any kind of way. It's just, I'm doing the same kind of work, just with a different title and a lot more flexibility. And doing, I think 90% of my job is doing things that I like, which is tremendous, right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:40

It's tremendous. Most people barely have 10 or 15% of their job that they really, truly enjoy. So especially if it is lining up so clearly with other things that you value, too, like that flexibility you're talking about, and like some of the other elements. So that's super interesting. Now, I know that you really, during this time, you actually started doing photography, as well as a more intentional piece of your life. So how did that come about? Because I know that was tangled up someplace here in the process.

Michal Balass 13:17

Yeah. So I have a lot of hobbies. I used to be a ballerina with a small ballet company in upstate New York, I did that for a couple of years. And that always had these other interests. And what I've noticed is when I stopped engaging in those interests, there's something going on in my life that is not going quite right. And I was always taking photos. And once I started my tenure-line job, I stopped doing that. And I want to backtrack a second and say that, in this process of transitioning out of this traditional academic role that I had, I actually took an unpaid sabbatical. So my supervisor at that time, was very, very supportive. I spoke with him, I said that I needed a little bit of time, and they allowed me to take an unpaid leave from my position.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:18

And this was a difficult decision for you if I remember correctly. Very difficult, right?

Michal Balass 14:23

Very, very difficult.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:24

What prompted you to decide to do that?

Michal Balass 14:28

The thought of... this is gonna sound really extreme. The thought of going back and teaching again just made me so miserable that I preferred to just struggle financially and not do it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:42

How long? And I am very familiar with that. I have been in that same place where that thought in some ways, and I think I took, at the time it's been 12 years or whatever it's been, but at the time, it was probably a less healthy approach because I think for me, it was less intentional than what I know that you did. Because you ended up talking with your husband and planning out and figuring out how could we do this, what would it look like. Mine was more, how do I do anything else, but this. I was running from which is exactly what we tell people not to do. And so I would love to ask you a little bit about what took place between the time where you started thinking about this, and you're like, "I have to do something else. And this thought is making me miserable. Just the thought of it is making me miserable, let alone the actuality." And what took place in between there and then taking a sabbatical?

Michal Balass 15:39

Yeah, absolutely. And I want to mention, I will tie this back to the photography eventually. So what happened was, is that I had my maternity leave, I went back to work. And a couple months later, the semester started, and I went back to teaching and that semester was okay, I just really slowed down these tests that I used to do really quickly felt so burdensome to me, I just wasn't as productive as I used to be, because I just didn't really want to do it. When I came back after winter break, that's when things really started to break down, I found it was really hard for me to get up in the mornings, I didn't want to go to work. And this was really unfair to the students that I was teaching because they weren't getting a professor that was there, you know, 1,000%. And that semester ended. And I had a little bit of time to think during the summer. And as time was inching closer and closer to going back in the fall, I just had this really nagging feeling that I just I can't do this. So my husband and I had some very tough conversations about what it would mean for me not to work for a few months and just take a break and step away. And there wasn't any dad that we were going to do whatever it took for me to feel better. And so we sort of planned ahead for this a little bit and put money away for me to be not working for about four or five months. And I went and spoke with my supervisor. And I explained that I didn't give too much detail that I was feeling burned out and I wanted some time. But at that point, I didn't quit. What happened was, so I started my unpaid sabbatical in August. And then by September, I had to let them know what classes that I will be teaching starting in the next semester. And I looked at that email, and I said, "I'm not going back."

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:52

This is not happening.

Michal Balass 17:54

Yeah. And so I spoke with him. And I explained to him the situation. Again, he was very, very supportive. And it ended there. And so I said that come January 1st, I will be resigning from my position. And once I did that, I felt this burden, and this heaviness lifted off of me. But I was still very emotionally burnt out. So I wasn't working. And I was supposed to be looking for another job. And the financial pressure was always there in the back of my mind. But I wasn't able to do anything. I was working with Lisa for a good few months. And I knew what I was supposed to do. And she trained me very well. I just couldn't do it. And so I would wake up in the mornings with my son, I would take him to, I would drop him off at his preschool, I would come home. And sometimes I will honestly admit this, I would sit on the couch and all I could do is just watch TV. And in my mind, I thought that I did that for a longer time than it actually did. I think it was maybe a period of three weeks. And one day I woke up in the morning and I just felt better. I don't know what made it better. And I started picking up my camera and I started photographing random things and posting them on Facebook. And then I asked if anybody would be willing to model for me for my portfolio because I just wanted to do it for fun. I didn't think of it in any other way. And I got a lot of volunteers and I went out there and I started photography. And people were asking for me to photograph them. And so I started this little business on the side. And I felt alive again that I was doing something that I was very passionate about. And that made me feel so much better that I think it was late October that I started applying to jobs and positions and networking. And once I was actually ready for that, the process went very, very quickly. So I think I mentioned this to you before that, in that span of time, I applied to five or six jobs, and every job I got at least a phone interview and an in-person interview. And it was because I was hyper-focused, I knew what was going on, I was sending thank you notes, I was having phone calls. And I don't know that I would have been able to do that while still working the other job. It was just taking up so much mental and emotional energy that for me, and I know that you don't recommend this to a lot of your clients, quitting was the best thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:42

It's not right for everybody. And, you know, we get that question many, many times. In fact, we did a full episode on how to know whether or not you should quit. But yeah, it is a very, very particular thing that does not, it's not always the same answer for everybody. And it depends whether or not it's going to rewrite for you. Because actually, some of the pressures that you just called out, can influence whether or not it's a great decision. And here's the reality that I've come to terms with is that it's going to be difficult no matter what. A lot of times we get into the situation, and we think, "Well, if only I had more time. And if only I didn't have this job in the way, and everything like that, then it would be okay." But the reality is, one way or another, it's still going to be challenging. And it sounds like that was the case for you, because you had the financial pressures on your mind, you were still, in some ways, it sounds like recovering from the burnout pieces. And I think that's one of the important things that we've observed that people must have. When they get to that point of burnout, they must get some kind of time away. And then after that, like some kind of distance, sometimes it's not always time, sometimes it's space, but some kind of distance in some way, in order to remove themselves from the real world of their situation and what it's been in the past. And then how they have to get momentum again. It seems like you were able to do that through photography, where you felt alive again. So I'm curious, as you kind of went through that cycle, what did you think the big pieces and big takeaways for you that really, really helped you move through that? Because everybody goes through that in some ways or another.

Michal Balass 22:28

Yeah. I think being patient with yourself. The more that I pushed myself, and the more that I, in my own mind, beat myself down that I shouldn't be doing this and I should be doing that and I shouldn't be pushing harder, the more resistance I gave to myself, the more it took me away from the process. And the more I had this aversion to figuring out my future. And the moment that I stopped, and I sort of let my mind engage in something else, that calmed me down. And those fears were still in the back of my mind, the financial fear that "Oh my goodness, I'm never going to be employed again, what am I going to do? How much longer can we do this just on my husband's salary?" And I've heard this before. And once you sort of give yourself some space to just calm down, you become more solution-focused, and you can start to see a lot more clearly than when you're hyper-focused and pushing and resisting where it doesn't get you anywhere.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:37

That's one of the things that we find that we are doing a lot of times with folks that we work with is helping them create that type of space. And it's not an easy, it's almost never an easy thing to do. But for you, now that you have done that for yourself, what do you think helped the most to create some of that space? I heard you say already that I just needed to stop being so hard on myself in some ways, but what else do you think actually made the difference for you there? At least from what you can reflect upon now.

Michal Balass 24:18

Sure. So one is giving myself space. Two was in those days where I wasn't looking for a job but doing something to occupy my time it was photography, it was engaging in these day-to-day activities that was sort of preoccupied my mind. So I wasn't thinking about the job process itself. And then I said to myself that I was going to have conversations with people about what they do, and it wasn't about finding a job. I was just interested in somebody talking to me about what they do. So maybe that would spark inspiration for me. And I had some many networking conversations and when I came at it in that perspective where I was just going to talk and I wasn't going to ask for anything else, all of a sudden having these, I don't want to call them networking conversations, I don't know what to call them. But I would, you know, contact somebody on LinkedIn and say, "Hey, I'm really interested in what you're doing. I would love to hear more." And they would be really eager to speak with me. And that sort of sparked my own journey to say, you know, one of the things that was stopping me from moving on is that I didn't want to do anything academic, right? So I just came from academia. And I had this like aversion and I wasn't going to go back. Surprisingly enough, I'm still in academia, I still love academia. And I needed to acknowledge that. And I just needed to have conversations with people who are doing academically aligned careers, which there are a lot of people who are doing it. I just restricted myself from it, because I couldn't think beyond my current situation. And once I stepped away from it, it became pretty easy to do that. Yeah. And once I did that, things progressed very fast. I think.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:18

That is so interesting. And we see that time and again, too. And I'm fascinated by the psychology elements of exactly that, where you come out of something and then you're like, I need to get the heck away from that. And you're sort of attributing that to be the problem when that isn't necessarily the problem. Sometimes it's something completely different. And then, you know, many times people end up in a variation, not always, but like in your case, you ended up in still academia, but in a completely different way, in a way that was much more in alignment with what you wanted and needed. And first of all, that is amazing. Because I think that a lot of people don't really realize what that takes to be able to do the work in order to get yourself the time and space and everything and all the conversations and all the things that have to happen in order to be able to get to that point and have that learning for yourself. But second of all, I would ask, what was the hardest part for you out of this whole thing? Or what were some of the most difficult challenges for you out of this whole journey, or piece of the journey?

Michal Balass 27:32

Oh my. Several things. As I mentioned before, letting go of the word Professor being a part of my career identity. And once I let that go, that released me a little bit from depression. The other hard part was the financial aspect of it. And I want to echo what you said before is that it's a dangerous thing to do, right? And it's not for everyone. And in my position, there wasn't any other way to engineer it. So before deciding to quit your job, I would recommend to talk with your supervisor, whoever is in a position to be a mentor to you and see what other things could be worked out. I think that's very important. In my situation, there wasn't anything else that could have been worked out. And it's really important for me to say, because I wouldn't wish that financial pressure and fear on anybody, especially if you have a young child, and you're trying to support a family. So I think that's really important. So in addition to this identity crisis, and this financial aspect, and the pressure of like having to do something right now, I mean, those were two big things about it. And I have to own this, that I was the one standing in my own way. You know, it wasn't that there's not a lot of opportunities out there. It was just me letting go and not trying to find the perfect next step. And I think that's really important. And that's the third aspect of this that was really, really hard. Like when I was looking for something the next step, I said, "I need to do something that is perfect and is going to fulfill X, Y, and Z." And that's really hard to do. And so you want to step into the process– A; being very patient with yourself, being very kind to yourself, and thinking about just improving from where you came from, to where you're going to go and make sure that that next step is gonna allow you the opportunities to grow. One of the most fantastic things that I love about my supervisor now is that when I interviewed him, he said that he doesn't expect me to stay there forever. He wants to create opportunities for me to grow. And the highest compliment to him would be if I stay in this role for a while, and then I move on to something else. And when he said that, I said, "Yes", this is what the process is about. It's doing something that fits your life in that mom

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:37

That is amazing advice. And I think, also, going back to what you said that you were the one standing in your own way, I think we've had exactly zero people that we've interacted with where the biggest challenges were something that was external. I have my personal experiences, then that literally 100% of the time, the biggest challenges are us standing in our own way, which is not what I think many of us go into this thinking. So that is amazing for you– One, acknowledging that. And then two, doing something about it. And then the not trying to find the perfect next step. I think that is so valuable. It's another type of pressure, like you were talking about the pressure earlier, right? That is just another type of pressure that we have a tendency to put on ourselves. And then it causes us not to be able to find any step.

Michal Balass 31:36

Right. Yeah, absolutely. And I think the difference between when I accepted the position that I'm in now, and the one that I accepted when I moved to Maryland was that I accepted my other academic job as I started it, I was going to get tenure, and I was going to retire from that institution. And I accepted this position knowing that I'm going to do this for a while, I don't know how long, I'm enjoying it thoroughly as we speak. And at some point, I'm probably going to grow into something else. And just that mind frame that different framing is so powerful, right? It's not something that I've ever started with any other job knowing that I may need to move into something else. And that's very powerful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:25

Well, in some ways, and I love what you're talking about. In some ways, it is really setting us up for different types of unneeded, I hesitate to use the word failure, because I think really failure is actually good in a lot of different ways. And we try and engineer failure into a lot of different things that we do. So we can have fast learnings. But it really is setting yourself up for whatever the opposite of success would be, and the opposite of what most people actually want. If we're going into it, the way that you did and I did many years ago too were thinking that, "Hey, this is the end." Like, because you're leaving the job, you're leaving all jobs one way or another. There is, whether you leave or whether they decide you leave, or whether I don't know, like something's going to happen, eventually, somewhere something in life is going to come up. And so it is really an impossible thing to find that perfect place where you're going to stay forever. And yeah. My last question to you. And you've given so much great advice so far. What else, aside from not trying to find the perfect next step, and getting out of your own way to some degree, what else after having gone through this would you give as advice to people who are in that place back where you were, way back where they might be thinking about the role, and be like, "I don't know how much longer I can do this. And I'm trying to figure out what would be right for me", but what advice would you give them if they're back there to be able to really figure this out and let them know what's coming?

Michal Balass 34:11

Yes, I would say first of all, and I said this before, be kind to yourself, be patient to yourself, and that things do always work out. That's one. The other thing I would recommend is to keep on having conversations. Don't have conversations because you're looking for another job, have conversations with people who are doing things that are interesting because you're interested in it. And that's going to open a whole world to you that you don't know about because you're not having conversations. And I want to say that I'm a very introverted person. When I walk into a party, I'm not the center of it and never was. But I can have these conversations now and I am still connecting and, you know, even now where I'm very happy with my current position, and I'm not looking to do anything necessarily in terms of leaving or anything of that nature, I'm still having conversations. I'm having conversations with other people at universities. I'm having conversations with people outside of my department learning about interesting things, because I don't know what circumstance is going to change, which is going to spark another move or another desire for a career change. And I think that's really important. And the important part of having conversations is about that it enlightens you about the possibilities. And when you hear about somebody who's doing something that is so fantastically interesting to you, I don't know, for me, it's very inspiring, and it keeps me going, it keeps me growing as a professional.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:02

Hey, if you love this story where we talk through and walk you through step by step how someone got to more meaningful work, then you'll absolutely love our audiobook– Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. I even got to narrate it, which was so fun. And something that I really enjoyed doing and will definitely do for future books as well. But it also contains firsthand accounts from career changers on how they made the move to more meaningful work, just like we include on the podcast here. And actually, it's been called the best audiobook experience ever by some reviewers. You can find those reviews, and the book itself on Audible, Amazon, or any other place where books are sold. Seriously, just pause this right now and go over to Amazon or Audible or wherever you want and download it. You can be reading it and started on your career change in literally seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:57

Now here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week right here on Happen To Your Career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:01

When you think about leaving your current company, they often fall into one of two categories. Movie-worthy visions, lighting the office on fire while flipping the bird on the way out the door. Well, the building slowly crumbles behind you. Or the option number two, being worried that your boss and all the people you care about are going to feel as though you flip them the bird and burn down the building, leaving everyone in the lurch while you go on to take care of your own life. But what if there were a completely different way? What if you could have your boss help you find a new role? What if your boss and co-workers supported your efforts to make a change while simultaneously you worked to set everyone up for success? That way when you left, they know that they're well taken care of. Let's put this another way. What if you didn't have to worry about burning bridges at all? And what if you have the support of the people that you work with to cross over your new bridge? That bridge still remains and everybody wins.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:03

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:01

What's the best way to meet new people, quickly test new careers, and pave the way for creating your very own role, maybe custom fit to you even? Most people think that it must be some amazing tactic, but it's not.

Introduction 00:20

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:45

On the Happen To Your Career podcast number 537, called Rethinking Informational Interviews: Stop Doing Them & Start Test Driving Conversations, there on that episode we broke down quite a bit of the step-by-step process of test driving conversations. And we talked about what are the differences but particularly the subtle differences between test-driving conversations, as well as informational interviews, and why those subtle differences actually make test-driving conversations far more effective. Here's what we didn't do in that episode, though. We didn't go through and give you an in-depth, real example with a real person or set of people. Today, we're going to show you exactly how test-driving conversations work with a real person. And that's where, if you go way back to Episode 299, Laura Morrison comes in.

Laura Morrison 01:43

I've always been fascinated with behavioral science. And I'd like to have many nights with friends having a couple of beers being like, "What's your Myers Briggs score?" I just like wanted to talk about that stuff. And I think it's because I think it's really interesting to understand what makes people do what they do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:01

That's Laura. And if you don't remember from her story way back in the early days, Episode 299, she was a senior level, she was working in a senior-level role in sustainability. And at that time, just had her first child. Even though she had no desire to stay at home with kids beyond her maternity leave, it was still really difficult to go back. Difficult because when she finally went back, she realized it was no longer challenging. It was actually pretty boring. And to make matters worse, she led a team of eight people who were actually really excited and really passionate about their work. Okay, normally, this is actually a good thing. But for her, it felt like she had to fake this excitement. And as you can imagine, since she was leaving a new kiddo at home every day, this wasn't something that she was into. And it became painful, rather quickly. So you can go back, you can listen to episode 299. We'll link this episode, in particular, in the show notes. There's quite a bit of her eight month journey that couldn't fit into the podcast. So it was years later, I sat down with Laura to break down step by step what had happened. How on earth did she get this opportunity with an organization that just absolutely fit her ideal career profile, which if you recall, that's usually the first step in the process after setting yourself up to have success, what we call a plan for inevitable success, and then defining a profile of your ideal career. And this was exactly the stage that Laura was at, where she had completed a version of her ideal career profile right before she started test-driving conversations. Here's a little bit about what she knew.

Laura Morrison 03:45

And I've always had a little bit of a natural instinct of like, this person's being a jerk, but it's probably just because of this XYZ insecurity, right? Like, I usually could read people's behavior a little deeper than just what you could see on the surface. So I didn't know what I wanted to do. But I knew the type of company I wanted to work for. So the first way I actually found and heard of the Predictive Index was I just started searching best places to work lists in Boston because at the time being local was very important. And I would read the name, and then I'd Google them and be like, "Okay, law firm, not interested." Right? Whatever. And T is pretty far down in the alphabet and some of these lists. So it took me a while to get there. But that's how I found The Predictive Index. Because of some of the resources you helped me with in terms of like finding people on LinkedIn, I was able to find a friend of mine, who I had met at what we called the worst moms group ever, and became friends because of it. It's a funny way to make a friend, like, we agree this was terrible.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:53

So it turns out Laura's new friend from the worst mom's group ever ended up knowing somebody already that worked at The Predictive Index, this organization that she was really interested in at the time, and appeared to line up with her ideal career profile. Okay, so she asked that person to introduce her.

Laura Morrison 05:13

At the time, he was the head of marketing at The Predictive Index. He now has a fancier higher title that I can't remember. And so she introduced me, you know, more than willing to talk. We talked for like the 15 minutes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:27

Laura mentions 15 minutes because we often recommend asking for 15 minutes in order to make a test drive conversation happen. Now, the reason behind that is pretty simple, but also psychological. You want to ask for something that people can say 'yes' to, not something that is difficult to say yes to, most people can find 15 minutes. But when you're asking for an open-ended amount of time, or an hour, or even a half an hour or even 20 minutes, sometimes, it becomes more difficult to be able to say yes to that. But here's the interesting part. When you get there, and your 15 minutes passes, and you're like, "Hey, you know what, I want to be respectful of your time." Often, many people will say, "Yeah, I can find more time."

Laura Morrison 06:09

So I learned a little bit about him by looking on LinkedIn, I had a 15-minute call with him. And mentioned, I was curious about product marketing, and UX research, and product management because those were the things I was interested in at the time. One of the things that I did is I did not express that I was interested at working there for as long as humanly possible.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:31

The reason why Laura mentions this here is because we often encourage people as they're going through experiments to keep an open mind because what you might find is that you don't actually really want to work at the organization or this particular type of role. And it was different for Laura, she validated that it actually was a good fit for her. But that's not always the case. So be aware. Okay, back to Laura's story.

Laura Morrison 06:57

First of all, I researched them so I could make a personal connection, like, "Oh, I hear you like music. Tell me about that." But then also, I have two or three awesome questions that I can never remember off the top of my head but are written in those documents.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:10

One of Laura's favorite questions is, "What do you love about working in this role, or this company, or this section of the organization?" Her other questions were more personalized or individualized. Also, I want you to remember that this is a career experiment. So here's a fun way that Laura would look at the data visually afterward, and assess what actually worked, where are the areas where she wanted to keep going forward, and where didn't she.

Laura Morrison 07:41

But then I also like what highlights in green are some colors. If they said things that I was excited about, I was like, "Ooh, that sounds like something I'd like I put it in green." And if it wasn't, I was like, "Oh, that sounds terrible. I put it in red." And so like, I would talk to UX researchers and realize there was so much red, like that one green thing I was curious about probably wasn't enough. And it's not like I'm not detail-oriented, at least based on my behavioral pattern. I'm like, trained into it through engineering. So it's not like I ever printed them all and compared them. But it was like a good gauge for me. Okay, this is why I'm excited about product management. I've talked to four product managers and keep highlighting things in green.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:21

So one of the things that you need to realize is that Laura was going through and even though she was really excited about this organization, The Predictive Index, she was also investigating other organizations and other roles and opportunities over a period of months. And during those conversations, during those interactions, she was having a lot of areas of red, but also a lot of areas of green for The Predictive Index and the conversation she was having there. And this was further reinforced as she continued to investigate and continue to interact with people in the organization.

Laura Morrison 08:56

One of the things before the interview, I don't like suits at all. I'm a pretty casual person. And I was like, I don't want to work at a place... And this was a while ago, this was four years ago, it's a little different now. I feel like no one wears a suit anymore, because everyone's in their pajamas. But so I'm like, okay, I'm going to wear something that I'm comfortable in like Lisa help with this too. And I'm gonna go in there and I'm going to be myself and not pretend to be anyone else and see what happens. And I think the morning or the night before, I was like, "Ryan", my husband, "there's a ping pong table in that office, and I'm going to see it and that's why I'm gonna want to work there." He's like, "How do you know that?" Because he's trying to get me to wear a suit, right? He's a banker. He's very formal. "Very sure you're comfortable wearing this to an interview?" I was like, "Yep, I'm comfortable. I guarantee there's a ping pong table in their office." And like, the first thing I do is I walk in and I see the ping pong table. That's good, right? I read the culture right. And then in our part of the interview, he whiteboard it for 30 minutes, didn't ask me a single question. And then another Engineer came in the room and started asking me all these questions about product management because he didn't like read the memo that I didn't know anything about software product niche. And he kept asking me all these questions. It's like, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. What I do know is bla bla bla. And I just, I didn't try to be something other than I was, I just was honest and curious. And it was fun. Like, I left that interview energized, which is not something I would normally say about an interview.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:27

Okay, so let's review for just a second here. Where Did Laura start out? Well, let's go back to step one. She started out in our Career Change Bootcamp program, which meant that step one was building a plan for when things get hard and identifying the people and things that she needed to make her career change successful. It's what we now call the plan for inevitable success. Step two was identifying a hypothesis where she spent several months creating a working draft of her ideal career profile. Step three was experimentation, where she specifically chose what we call test-driving conversations. That's what we're talking about right now, right? And during those conversations, she was reaching out to people in a variety of different ways, which we cover in different episodes. And we'll have links to some of those different ways and examples in the show notes. But finally, she observed that she was really excited about this one company, in particular, The Predictive Index, and had already been through many conversations. And the previously determined, prior to even uncovering The Predictive Index, that product management could be an area that she was excited about changing, too. So now, at this point, she had some validation that she was on to a role that could be right for her, as well as a company that could match up for her. That's when she started talking to the people at The Predictive Index And let's not gloss over the fact that she already now had relationships with them, after she had this series of those initial test drive conversations. And after that happened, after she had decided, "Yep, I want to work at The Predictive Index. How do I make that happen?" She went to them to discuss that she was interested and how it might be possible to work there because she was loving every interaction that she had. That's where they brought her into the interview process for a position that wasn't even posted at the time. And as you heard, those interviews that she had reinforced her experience with the company, and ultimately led to a pretty decent-sized race when she was worried initially about having to take a pay cut. And she ended up having to lead to this amazing opportunity. Now, when people listen to this, there's one thing that doesn't always seem obvious, doesn't always stand out. But it's really important for us to cover. It's that, to be able to get to this point where you actually have an opportunity in front of you, you actually have to give up initially, that you want it to lead to an opportunity at all. And you actually have to genuinely be curious when you are in the test-driving conversations. Test driving is for that purpose only. It's for test driving. It's for experimentation. It's for trying to find out if what you think you want is actually what you want. Nothing else.

Laura Morrison 13:27

I was trying not to be the person who was like, "Oh, my gosh, hire me." And I was trying not to sell myself essentially like I was trying to be curious and ask questions rather than me like you should hire me because of XYZ.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:41

It's only at this point in time where you've gone through, and much as Laura did, you've already validated that this is an organization that I want to work with. This is a role that I want to actually be in. I have some actual evidence, if you will, through my experiments, that what I am heading towards is actually right for me. Only at that point in time, can you then shift your focus and ask for what you want. Well, you might be wondering, "How did Laura do that here?" Well, in addition to this conversation that you've been hearing that I had with Laura, years after the fact when we pieced together all the events that had happened, I also went back and looked at our notes. And what I discovered is that there was a point along the way where Laura had interacted with us saying, "You know what, I really want to work for this organization. I proved that this is something that's going to be right for me. How do I shift into let's get this mode now that I know what I want?" And what we did is we helped her understand that you could go have a conversation. It's pretty simple conversation saying, "You know what, I love all the interactions that I've had here. I have really enjoyed how you've taken me through and helped me understand what it is that you do. Every interaction I've had has really strengthened my desire to work here. And now at this point, I'm sure that I want to work here. So I'd love to talk to you about how we could make this happen. How in the future I could work with The Predictive Index." And so that's what we came up with. And if we fast forward quite a bit, that eventually led to do a progression, and ultimately, the interview process that you heard earlier on in the episode, and then ultimately an opportunity. Here's Laura talking about how it moved from I'm exploring into now we're talking about this role.

Laura Morrison 15:38

Before we're talking about careers, like jobs, how a product works, how marketing works. And then that second conversation, I think, we start talking about the role. What is the role specifically are you interested in it? Here's what I want in this role, that sort of conversation.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:55

The last thing I should probably mention is that almost everyone, not everyone, but almost everyone we work with, when we have our clients have these types of conversations, they're uncomfortable, wildly uncomfortable at first. However, you build skill around it, and also comfort.

Laura Morrison 16:14

I mean, part of your whole process that I really appreciated was like forcing me to talk to all these people that I didn't know.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:20

And you might ask, well, why do we do that? Why is that a part of our process in one way or another? And the simple answer is, because if you really want to get to work that fits you, work that is meaningful, work that actually is a wonderful situation for you, then it doesn't just come through the normal channels, you have to identify what it is, find where it can happen in the world, and then essentially, engineer your way into those opportunities. And we find that the very easiest way to do that is through people, whether it's these types of conversations, whether it is building new relationships, whether it is, you know, experimenting, and having other people's help in making your career change and understanding what you want, and getting that feedback all along the way, it always comes from people. People are the shortest road to being able to making this type of work possible. And guess what? It can be great for them just as much as it's great for you. So last thing I want to leave you with is that here's a couple of things that you can do today to get started. If you're not quite ready to experiment, if you haven't already identified where it is that you're heading, then that's where you need to start. And that's okay. Now you know what comes later on in the process. So the way that you can do that is by starting with your plan for inevitable success, and so that you are prepared to make a career change. And then if you've already done that, you can go into your ideal career profile and begin to identify your destination– where it is that you want to go, your hypothesis so that then you can go into experimentation. However, if you're all ready for experimentation, then the first thing that you can do is begin identifying those organizations, or roles that could be a great fit for you. And then reach out to folks so that you can begin scheduling some of these conversations, test drive conversations, like what we talked about. And we've got plenty of links here in the show notes to help you with each piece of the process referring back to other episodes. Or, if you want help with this, by all means, don't hesitate to reach out and send me a note directly Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. And just put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And we'll be more than happy to be able to help you for whatever stage you're at. Otherwise, pick out some organizations, and let's get started.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:57

Hey, if you've been listening to our episodes here at Happen To Your Career and you want to make an intentional career change to much more meaningful work, and have it neatly laid out into an organized framework, well, guess what, we actually have that available for you in the Happen To Your Career book. It's available on Amazon, Audible anywhere else where you get your books. You'll learn about the five hidden obstacles, stopping your career change, how to figure out what would truly make you happy with your career. And what brings you more happy more often. And more importantly, how to transition to a much more fulfilling career and life. You can find the book on Amazon, Audible anywhere where books are sold, by the way, people are particularly loving the audio book, which you can access right now in second.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:45

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up for you next week right here on Happen To Your Career.

Michal Balass 19:52

I got to that point, and I didn't want to give it up. But the thing of it is, is that I didn't want that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:01

Okay, if you've ever hung on to something for way, way longer than you should, this episode is for you. Whether it's a job or a relationship, maybe it's something completely different. But all of them can leave you feeling completely drained. So the question becomes, "How can you motivate yourself to make the necessary change and then make sure that you move on to the first sign of trouble the next time? How can you learn from it?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:30

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:01

How can you accomplish goals that require having connections, but not be transactional? Well, it turns out there are easy ways to begin relationships that are genuine and feel natural to the other party. What's the key? Well, it turns out, stop forcing it. What if we only focused on what's easy for you?

Introduction 00:26

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:51

I remember in 2006 I had just recently been fired from a job that I did not particularly enjoy. It was pretty rough. I was pretty determined at that point to not have to go back to just another job where I could spend my days just, you know, waiting for the weekend, as I grinded it out in meetings that had really no meaning for me. So that's the point in time, some of you have heard this story before, but that's the point in time where I began learning everything I could about people who get well paid and also love their work. And that's where I started to call these people happy high achievers. One of the things that I observed right away as I was studying this group of happy high achievers, is that they often don't get jobs by traditional means. When you're outside, and you're looking in on their situation, it almost seems random, it's not though. It's not random. It's not even close to random. Also, it doesn't have anything to do with the Blind 200 plus times or, Indeed, or applying on LinkedIn. So the question becomes, well, how do they do it? How do they do it? How do they create these opportunities? How do they engineer these opportunities? How do these opportunities happen seemingly serendipitously? Well, we've talked about in the past about the importance of prioritizing what you want. And that's step one. Like you have to have an understanding of what you want, where you're going to make it easier to get there. So that of course, is where it starts. That said, though, happy high achievers realize that people hire other people, people make the opportunities for other people. It's not companies, it's not computers, yes, there can be computers and technology involved. But ultimately, it's people that end up making the final decisions or creating the final decisions. This means that a very large shortcut to find the work that fits you, or even getting positions created for you is through, you guessed it, relationships. Now, over the years, I have personally found that there is a huge, let's call it not a shortcut, but the fastest way to begin a relationship with someone else, it's not networking events, it's definitely not speed networking, even though that sounds like it should be. It's also not always anything to do with social media. Sometimes it can be. The continuous question that always pops up is, "How do I make connections? How do I build genuine relationships when I hate or despise traditional networking? I do not want to feel like I am schmoozing." Okay. Now, regardless of how you feel about schmoozing, or traditional networking, in this episode, we're going to cover and focus our efforts on how do we begin natural, great connections. I'm also going to give you five specific examples of ways to do this, along with some of my personal favorites. At the end of this episode, I'm going to give you a few actions that you can start with today, like right now. But first, let's go into where a few people struggle with this. Let's uncover some of these struggles so that we can begin to not just dissect them, but give you some solutions to those struggles.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:24

One of the things is reconciling this idea of, hey, I know that my goal is to get a job. I know my goal is to find my way to my ideal career, meaningful work, whatever it is that I have as a goal. And I also know that I don't want to schmooze. I don't want to be transactional. And what I found over the years is that many people have problems reconciling the two. How do I have this goal? How do I make progress on the goal? And how do I not create a transactional relationship with the other person? Okay. Now the hardest part of this entire concept is getting people to temporarily let go of the outcome here. Temporarily let go of the fact that my ultimate goal might be to get a job. We have to disconnect the goal from the interactions with the other person. That way I can focus solely and genuinely on the other person. Okay. Now, that's a really, really difficult concept. It sounds ridiculous in reality, but it is, "the struggle is real" we'll say. What you can do, you can have a goal, you can strategically seek to build relationships with those people who are likely to be able to help you or hire you. But don't do it only for that reason. Do it because you actually want connection with that other person. What you can't do, you can't let that goal block your ability to be genuinely interested in that other person. This is hard. Also, you can't fake interest. Humans have pre-installed BS meters that are hardwired into us for many years of evolution. Okay, for a second here, let's break down what goes into a great connection. Great connections when you start to think about what are those pieces and parts that must be there. We're not going to be able to uncover all of them. However, those also come from years of evolution. It's those situations where we feel some level of familiarity. That familiarity breeds trust. Well, what creates familiarity? Often a variety of things like rapport, like being able to find that common ground, like being able to have somebody who is genuinely interested or showing care in you. Okay, those are just a few of the things. But they're going to serve us well as we continue to talk about how to find a few ways that fit you to create genuine connections here. Okay, let's start with number one here. Number one, I call the path of least resistance. A path of least resistance, as it turns out, is introductions. It is something that is probably the easiest, shortest pathway, and maybe even the most powerful relationship-building hack that you already have in your toolbox. It allows you to connect with all kinds of people, simply because you already know some people now. Okay, I can hear some of you saying, "Well, I don't have that big of a network", or "I am trying to build relationships in another city." What we've learned over the last 10 years is, yes, that feels like a struggle. And sometimes that can add to the challenge. However, in most cases, you have a far bigger network already. And far bigger number of relationships in one way or another that are already there, already operating in existence from friends, family, co-workers, and other people that you interact with on a regular basis. Okay, let me show you how, though this idea of introductions can work. Let's break it down into an actual connection here. Let's say that you and I know each other well enough where I have some level of trust and respect for you. Now, let's say that you tell me, "Scott, I have someone you must meet. You have to meet this person." When you introduce me to someone else, a portion of that trust and credibility comes over from them. Think about it as it almost, like, comes over from them. Because it's a familiar source, and then passes on to the other person– the new person, the person you're getting introduced to, which creates instant trust and credibility. Now, there's a really great group of research about this, who Robert Cialdini had pulled together in a rather famous book called "Influence: The Science and Art of Persuasion". But even if you didn't know anything about this research, you've seen this happen already. Let's use an example here that you have either done yourself or you've seen happen. You invite your friends to dinner. One of your friends asked if they can bring another friend of theirs. Okay, so fast forward, dessert and a glass of wine. And a couple hours later, you have a brand new relationship, because now you have interacted with them. And let's assume at that point, you've liked them. And you have a measure of trust with this newest person who entered your life less than two hours before, right? Okay, think about what would happen if instead, that same person that you've never met before, shows up randomly and unannounced. Like they just show up at your door. Like, you know, they weren't invited by a friend. The friend didn't say, "Hey, can I bring this person along? " Instead, this person just shows randomly up at your door, and they're like, "Hey, so I heard you're having dinner here. Can I have dinner with you?" You're probably pretty likely to say ‘no’ because that's strange. It's out of context. And that request is coming from this person you've never met before. You might call the cops but you're probably not likely to say, "Yeah, come in and eat dinner." You're probably like, "Why are you here?" Okay, but instead, let's go with it for just a second. Let's say that you do actually choose to invite them in, because you're just that nice of a person, and you're already eating dinner anyway. So let's imagine that you do allow them to come in. You're probably pretty likely to be more skeptical, or the relationship and trust-building process is going to take longer, it's going to move slower. This means that when you are creating introductions, and you already have a relationship with one person, it speeds up the trust in relationship-building process with the person you're being introduced to. Okay, so now, let's use that analogy of, you know, being brought to dinner as a friend. This is what I want you to do. Your goal now is to create the time, place, and events that allow you to enter the life of someone else in a way that increases their chances of liking you, trusting you, and deeming you as credible. Okay, if you remember our happy high achievers that we talked about earlier, and out of my studies of what they do, you begin to realize there's lots of ways to leverage introductions to build relationships. And we've have talked a little tiny bit about this on the Happen To Your Career podcast from time to time, we teach a lot of these to our coaching clients. And there's some measure of this inside, some of our programs like Career Change Bootcamp. But for today, I want to really go in-depth into something that we don't have anyplace else quite in this way. And I want to focus specifically on introductions by email.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:48

Now, I'll say that you can adapt these email introductions to conversational introductions to social media introductions to, like, text message introductions, they can be adapted all over the place with a little bit of changing the verbiage for the situation. But let's assume that for a moment, you already have the basics in place for an introduction. And the basics are simple. Someone knows someone else that you want to know. That's it. There's probably this situation right now. And you just might not be totally aware of it. Most people, when they're faced with this situation, simply ask for an introduction. And that would be a mistake. Okay, let's talk about what does it do. I'm going to give you a formula for introduction, no, this is not a script, it is a formula that works rather well. It is not the only formula, but it's one of them that we use regularly that we've seen a lot of success with and tested over the years. Okay, I want to just read you an email here really quick. This email example goes like this. "Hey, Patricia. I'm spending the next couple of months researching companies trying to decide on my next career move. I was wondering if you would be willing to introduce me to Tim over at Google. I noticed that you are connected with him on LinkedIn. I'm really interested in product development and we'd love to ask him a few questions about what he does. If not, no worries. But if so, I would very much appreciate it. Just let me know, yes or no. And I will write up an example and something just to make it easier on you. Thanks so much." Okay, that's an example of a super simple email. But I want to break down, what is the formula that's at work here? We've already got someone that you already know. And the assumption here is that they know you and they like you. They have some measure of trust with you. What we're asking for is, we, or I should say, what we're doing here is we're sharing the context of the request, we're sharing the request itself, what's the "ask" here, expressing what the intention behind the ask here, which is incredibly important, we'll talk more about that in a second. We're giving them an out. So we're giving them a way to say 'no', which is important too, especially from a psychological aspect. That way, they don't feel like they're being backed into it, which increases the higher level of commitment. We're sharing in appreciation and gratitude. And we're making it so easy. It's something that they can say yes to. We're not asking for something that they feel like they can't do in one way or another. Okay, if we do those things, it significantly increases, not just their willingness to make the introduction for you, but also the chances that they're going to be able to say yes. You probably didn't realize there was that much buried in that super short message that I read to you. But I want to break it down again here. Okay, so the other thing I should tell you too, is I will make sure that we have a link to these messages inside of your show notes. You can go back and look at them where we break down and show in the message, what is the context. What is the request? What is the place where it makes it easy for them to say yes, etc. And then that way you can have a visual at the same time. All right, that message again here says, "Hey, Patricia. I'm spending the next couple of months researching companies trying to decide on my next career move." That is the context. I'm sharing the context in which I am contacting them. That way, they understand what to do with this message, and they're willing to read on. Alright, and then I go on to say, "I was wondering if you would be willing to introduce me to Tim over at Google." That's my request, that's my ask. I put it up front and center. I make it easy for them to understand. And then I go on to say, "I noticed that you are connected with him on LinkedIn, I'm really interested in product development and I would love to ask him a few questions about what he does." That's my intention. Because if they know Tim over at Google, what if they're worried that I'm going to try and sell Tim some stuff? Or what if they're worried that who knows? Like, if we don't fill in the blank for them, then our human brains are amazing and they will imagine something a reason to try and fill in the blank for them about why we're trying to contact Tim. So we just need to share our intention upfront, it makes it easier for them to be like, "Oh, yeah. Like, that's great idea. Yeah, you should totally do that. Yeah, I'd help." Okay. And then I go on to say, "If not, no worries!" That's four words, I tend to put exclamation points after it. But the important part is I'm giving them an out with those four words. And then from there go on to say, "But if so I would very much appreciate it." That's the appreciation part. That's the gratitude part. And then I make it easy for them to say yes, by saying, "Just let me know, yes or no. And I'll write up a short example, and send something over to make it easier on you." Another thing to point out, there's only 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6 and a half sentences really in this. And then that's it. It's a really short email, as to the point it has all the pieces. And that's part of what makes it work. You'll notice that every line set of words is there intentionally. And then when you send this as an email, or you send it as a message on social or we could send it as a text. In a text, you could probably even reduce it further, like you could, you know, with even more shorthand and less sentences, if you need to do. Your next step after this is, after you have something like this drafted, all you have to do is press send. Like this is your easiest road, easiest road by a long shot to be able to create natural connections. But it doesn't stop there. The important part in order to finish creating, or I should say, engineering these natural connections, is what happens after that. What happens after I've asked for an introduction? Most people think that your work is done here like all I need to do is figure out a time to schedule with a new person, and voila, okay, instinct connection, but that would be inaccurate. And that's also why people have bad experiences with introductions. My work does not stop here. First, and maybe most importantly, if they say no, that's okay. That's okay. They might be connected to the other person, but maybe they don't know them really well. Or maybe they just aren't comfortable with the intro. Either way, that's okay. Move on. If you can try not to just get discouraged from that, just try to understand if you can, that that's their right and if they made that introduction, then it might not go that particularly well anyways. They have a reason in mind allowed them to decide what is best there. Don't force it, as we talked about earlier. But if they do say yes, that is amazing. That's perfect. This is the point where you get to, instead of waiting on them, you get to prepare an intro for them. Now, when I say prepare an intro for them, I'm talking about preparing the email or the text or however, they're going to introduce you to this other person. Write it for them. writing an introduction serves a couple of purposes. Number one, it makes it easier for them to send it even though they said they're gonna send it or maybe even some people are like, "Oh, no need to send over an example." Do it anyway. I promise you that people have great intentions to write their own. But a lot of times they may be busy and may not actually be able to follow through on it or something may happen in their lives where this priority gets dropped and it falls to a lower priority level. And in order to allow them to follow through, which is good for you and good for them, they feel good about themselves. And it helps you just write the introduction. It's also easier for most people to modify something that is there versus writing something from scratch. So if you're creating an introduction for them, they may only use one line of it. And that would be okay. But that actually makes it possible for them to send it because it reduces the cognitive load. And it reduces the steps that have to happen in order for them to get to the point where they actually send the introduction, email or text, or whatever for you. Okay, I want to give you an example of what it sounds like to respond back to them. And what an introduction email might sound like, as well. So I might send them a one-liner saying, "Here's that introduction for Brett and Sue. Thank you so much, again, for being willing to do this, feel free to use anything that I've written, or feel free to make changes or use nothing at all. Again, I really appreciate it. Let me know when you have made the intro so that I can respond." Okay, then I would paste below the email, as well, the actual introduction email, too. So let me read this off. This example says, "Hey, Brett and Sue. Hope you're both doing well up there in Massachusetts. It's 75 and sunny here in Dallas today. So I can't complain. I wanted to introduce you both to Anna. Anna and I met through a business coach that we both work with, she's currently interested in learning more about the roles available at your company located there in Boston. She's really engaged, she's really excited about your particular mission of helping companies realize the potential of their employees. And I suggested that she talk to both of you based on your levels of influence and your respective roles. I just sent Anna an idea of your product and I'll share the results as soon as I have those as well. All the best connecting, take care." Now, one thing I might change on this email, something that I use a lot, I will embed another line in there to really level up and say, "I would suggest that you connect in the next week via short phone call, or connect in person." And then that way I'm giving permission and instruction for what the other parties can do. This actually helps a lot. It helps a lot because it gives guidance as to what to do next. And having that guidance as to what to do next increases the chances that I'm going to be able to then meet and have that connection, begin that connection with the other person or in this case, people. Okay. Don't forget to ask them if it's an email to CC you on the intro, and then that way you can respond and then you can just take it from there. After they've sent the introduction, you're off to the races, get a call scheduled with the person or a time set up to meet. One of the things that we'll talk about and have mentioned in future episodes is, it's a whole art form to be able to schedule in ways that reduce the cognitive load required. But that's another episode for another day. Work to schedule the call with the person, get a time set up, you've probably guessed that there was even more ways that you can make this process more valuable. We're going to come back at the end. And we'll talk more about that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:17

But let's go into number two. Idea number two for how you can connect with other people. This is called the conference goer. Here's an example. One of our clients, we're gonna call her Jennifer. She was really excited about a conference, she was heading to this conference that she was attending. And she really wanted to meet with one of the panel speakers. She had been following her work for a while. So here's what she did to create that initial connection. She initially had interacted with the speaker on social media just by responding to some of her comments in various different places and then sent an email beforehand. So later on wasn't out of the blue when she emailed the panel speaker again and said, "I'm really looking forward to your panel discussion. I'll be in the front row wearing an orange jacket. I'm really excited to meet you afterwards." Okay, so this series of relatively small interactions via email and social allowed her to be able to get to me and connect with the speaker afterwards. Now, she was really pumped. She was really pumped. And one of the things is that this feels really natural. It may not feel natural to you if this is the first time that you've done this, and this is a point that I should distinguish. None of these things might feel natural to you. We're gonna go through five different examples in total, and at first, they might not feel natural to you, but they will feel natural to the other person. And that's what we're going for. So in this case, Jennifer had been able to begin that relationship with somebody that she really wanted to know. And that's the important part here. And it actually didn't take that much in time total, probably researching and messaging and everything else and thinking about what she was going to wear and how she's going to do that probably took like 90 minutes, right? You can really ramp up the relationship building here to another opportunity to be able to level up in this case is by circling back around with that person after the conference too. And when you speak with them, letting them know that you're going to wrap back around with them after the conference too. Because if you think about it, as someone who is on a panel or somebody who is a speaker at conference, what I've noticed is that as soon as someone does their presentation, then everyone wants to talk to them afterwards. So there's limited time to connect, right? So I'll make a point to find ways to work around this. One of the ways is what we mentioned for Jennifer. Other ways is, I might request to meet up with them before their speaking time, or well after their speaking time in a way that's easy for them. Here's an example, "I'm going to be at the conference on Thursday. I would love to buy you a coffee at 7am before the conference gets started for the day. Or if that doesn't work out, I'm also going to be around after the conference. I'm hanging around till Sunday at 3pm. I'd be happy to do breakfast at this time or buy coffee at this time." It is relatively easy, but especially if you've already had some level of initial connection with that person at the conference, it can work really, really well. Another thing to note, too, is that it doesn't actually have to be speakers, something else that I've done quite a bit is I'll find out who's going to do attend the conference, and be able to contact those individuals prior to the conference going. That does two things for them, it gives them something to look forward to, that is out of the ordinary of the conference. And often if you're meeting with them early, it can give you another person to be able to experience the conference with and then that often creates a stronger relationship too. And especially if you meet up with them earlier on, shortly after they arrive or before the conference really gets going, then it heightens the chance that you're going to be able to spend more time with them in a variety of different ways, even if just passing and waving again in the conference hallways. Okay. So it does require a little bit of detective work to do that. What you'll find is a lot of conferences nowadays, or events in one way or another, try to create a community around it. And they'll use apps, they'll have attendee lists, they'll have, there's a lot of different ways that you can find out who is going. And then you can pick and choose from the people that you're really excited to get to know for one reason or another, whether that happens to be an industry they're in, a role that you're excited about, just somebody that you have heard of, and hadn't connected in your industry with or somebody who you just happen to be on their social media and realize that, wow, this might be a cool person. All of those are okay. And 100% of those are great reasons to be able to reach out to them, share what attracted you to them in the first place. And it doesn't have to be complicated. It can be as simple as, "Hey, I clicked on your social media, I realized that we have this and this in common. I realized that we both do mountain biking and are attending this conference. And I would love to get connected with you. What day are you flying in? I'll be there on Tuesday, I would love to buy a coffee." It can be that simple. Okay, this next one is called the "gatherer". This is where you're bringing people together. Bringing people together and allowing them to bring other people together along with you in one way or another. So instead of you going to someone else, someplace else, and seeking out connections, this is the backwards approach where you're bringing people to you in one way or another. Now, this is something that I've done over and over again. But also recently we had a client who did this exact thing.

Jill 29:20

The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker, and I love gathering people together. So the Art of Gathering book talks about how to bring people together in a meaningful way. And I would say that's one way that I have practiced everything that I've learned, and that is by bringing people together. So I had a party at my house a few years ago called Chats and Charcuterie, where just had a Charcuterie board and then I brought people. This was kind of like towards the end of COVID. So people only talked about COVID when you got together, and I was tired of talking about COVID and so I was just like, "Okay, no, we're gonna talk about different things." And so I invited people over to my house, we set up a big circle and it just organically took place like the conversation. And we never brought up that subject and everyone just really connected.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:09

That by the way, is Jill and we'll put a link to her full story and full podcast from the Happen To Your Career podcast. But I wanted to share that tidbit for how you can use this to connect with other people in a gathering-type format. Now, I've done this quite a bit, I mentioned that earlier. Sometimes we connect around a particular idea. For example, you know, we had somebody who used to work with our Happen To Your Career team and she was just copywriting for us. She is amazing. And one of the things that she did was she hosted parties at her house every single month to connect with other people to talk about Enneagram. And that turned into this thing that everybody looked forward to for years. And she got to meet so many people through that type of event over and over and over again, every single month. And she didn't have to go anywhere, she did have to do a little planning, they would make tacos every single time and that was it. That was the extent of it. Pretty cool, right? But you can actually combine this together with the conference goer, too. An example of that, where you're combining the conference goer with the gatherer, well, I've done dinners or meetups big and small, many times where I've organized people together for conferences. Remember those lists we're getting access to other people who are going to be there? Well, I've invited a group of people to dinner and I will state exactly that, "Hey, I'm putting together a group of really interesting people that I would love to meet. And I would love to have you there." And then I would reference why I'm interested in having you there. What's the context and say, "We're getting together on this night, this day, at this place, it's going to be a small dinner, there'll be about six of us or so. And we'd love for you to join us." That's it. That's an example of a small one. I've also organized groups that are like 40, or 50 plus people where it turns into a full-on meetup. And it doesn't have to be complicated. The invites can be very, very simple. Generally, when people are going to a conference, they want to connect, they want to have things that are outside the normal, they want to feel like they belong in one way or another. This is an easy thing that you can not take advantage of but appeal to. And then this allows you to be able to begin a connection in a new and different and very natural way. Now the cool thing out of this, the extra benefit out of this is you get a lot of connections all at once. So you might know that I'm very much a maximizer. I love creating multi-purpose or multi-benefit activities. And this definitely falls into that category for me. Let's go into number four. Number four is what I call "The Friend Maker". Meaning I'm going to make you my friend. This is something I've also done over and over and helped many of our clients too. Here's how it goes. You find a person that you are genuinely interested in. You want to meet. And you take a very direct approach with that. I want to tell you how I met my friend, Jenny Foss, who's been on the podcast. She runs a really interesting resume business, which she's transitioned and grown over the years. And the way that I met her, I don't remember how I got introduced to her work, somebody must have sent me something or I happened along the interwebs ended up hearing about Jenny. And right away, I could tell that this is somebody who I wanted to know. This is somebody who I would likely be friends with. And she lived in the Portland area. We had that in common. Because I've lived in Portland in the past, she just seemed super fun. She seemed into some of the same things that I was into. She had kids approximately the same age. There were all of these different things. So I had emailed her and said, "Jenny, I don't know how we have not met before. We happen to work in... We both work in careers. And we have some similar friends. And I would love to connect. I'm coming to Portland in two weeks and wondering if I can invite you to dinner or if I can buy you coffee." So in result, super simple, but of course she said yes. And I've been able to grow that friendship. She's super fun. I got to meet up with her a variety of different times different ways. She's been on the podcast, I've done different partnerships with her. It's turned into something else, but that's not how it started. That's not how it started at all. It started from simply saying, "Jenny, you're awesome. I'm going to make you my friend." That's it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:47

But you can do the same thing if that feels too forward to you, then here's an example of another one. We call this one, the "Doer". The doer is where you're able to connect through work, in one way or another by doing the work. This can be in quite a few different forms. For example, one of the things that you could do is connect through a volunteer cause where you're actively working, you're actively rolling up your sleeves in one way or another, to be able to connect with other people that you either want to meet, or involved with organizations that you're excited about, or anything else that you might have in common with. Now, another example of this might be where you connect by project. For example, there's a variety of open source projects out there, let's say that you are someone who can write code or you do project management or any number of other things like that, then you can actually become involved through a project and actually do the work. Now, one of the fun things that we've seen about this is not only can this be a way to experiment with something, we talked about experiments in detail in both the HTYC book and on the podcast. And I'll put a link to a variety of different types of career experiments, which also talks about different ways to connect. And I'll put a link to that in the show notes. But not only is this a great way to experiment, it is a wonderful way to get to know people and have just through the natural course of interaction around a particular cause. Being able to have natural recommendations come up, "Oh, you have to meet this person. Can you introduce me to them?" And guess what? That actually leads us right back to the beginning. Here's one of the fun things over and over again. We started with introductions. And this leads us into our bonus way to connect with people. When you're meeting people in any context when you're in the course of normal conversation, people might say like, when you're volunteering they might say, "I've got a friend who's in strategy at Microsoft", or "My sister, Jenny, has worked in the craft brewing world for years." And if that interests you at all, all you have to do is ask. You can say, "Oh my gosh. I would love to meet Jenny. Would you be willing to introduce me to Jenny?" And then that sets you right back at the path of least resistance. Introductions can lead to more introductions. And when you make it easy on people that are very willing to help, introductions become the gift that keeps on giving. Pretty cool, right? All right.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:24

Last but not least here. I want to share a couple of things that you can do. A couple of things that you can do today, right now, in order to make this easy on you. Thing number one. If you're less comfortable, I would encourage you to practice. Practice with someone else. This might sound ridiculous, they're like "I don't need to practice." But what we find, even though we're working with really, really talented people all over the world, is that almost everybody, almost everyone is somewhat uncomfortable with this. And that's okay. It's because we don't take the opportunity to practice. So if you're in that category of being less comfortable, find somebody to practice with, find an accountability partner, join our community, find a coach, find a friend who's willing to practice with you and have these types of interactions, have these types of beginning conversations or practice asking. But in any case, start to practice. If you find that you want to do something, you want to reach out to someone in one way or another or that you're nervous about a conversation that you have scheduled, that's your indication that it's going to be useful for you to practice. It's okay. Practice and you'll feel more confident when you go to have the actual conversation or an actual interaction. Number two, if you're already comfortable or have some level of comfort, then I would encourage you to choose one of the examples today. The Path of Least Resistance, the Conference Goer, the Gatherer, the Friend Maker, the Mentor, or the Doer. Choose one of those examples and start today. Again, you'll find all of the references, all of the links, resources, and everything else that we talked about, you'll see them in the show notes, or you'll have them emailed to your inbox and take advantage of those.

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:17

Hey, if you've been listening to our episodes here at Happen To Your Career and you want to make an intentional career change to much more meaningful work and have it neatly laid out into an organized framework, well, guess what, we actually have that available for you in the Happen To Your Career book. It's available on Amazon, Audible anywhere else where you get your books. You'll learn about the five hidden obstacles, stopping your career change, how to figure out what would truly make you happy with your career. And what brings you more happy more often. And more importantly, how to transition to a much more fulfilling career and life. You can find the book on Amazon, Audible anywhere where books are sold, by the way, people are particularly loving the audio book, which you can access right now in second.

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:11

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up for you next week right here on Happen To Your Career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:18

What's the best way to meet new people, quickly test new careers, and pave the way for creating your very own role, maybe custom fit to you even? Most people think that it must be some amazing tactic, but it's not. It's one particular type of experimentation.

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:36

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.