Lisa Vu 00:01

I wasn't being overworked and burned out the same way that, you know, you typically hear people going through career changes or were very stressed at work. It made me feel even more alone and that even thinking like, "Oh, I shouldn't be complaining."

Introduction 00:23

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:48

Is being bored a good enough reason to leave my job? We actually get asked this question quite often. And I'll say this first. You don't need to justify wanting to leave whether you're burned out and overstimulated or bored and under-stimulated, you deserve a career that fits you. But here's the thing, this question gets me thinking. Burnout is talked about a lot. I mean, 500 million results came up when I typed a burnout into Google. But the thing that's not talked about enough, and why many people feel so alone when they experience it is how being bored and unstimulated at work can be just as draining as burnout.

Lisa Vu 01:33

I think I became very apathetic in my last job where I was at for seven years. And that was just such a dangerous place to be. And it's just so subtle, too, which makes it really hard. And so I think, once I realized, like, I just was at a point where I just don't care.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:52

That's Lisa Vu. Lisa was working in research at UCSF, and like many of you, she was bored at work. So very bored. She was feeling very siloed. She was unable to collaborate and was not receiving any feedback. She could basically do her job and no one else would know. Okay, so some people would listen to this. And because her job was so very low lift and had almost no oversight, she knew that many people would kill for her type of role. But it wasn't right for her. And so she decided to find something else. And as she began working with her coach, she realized that she needed to look outside of research. But then she found herself unable to look at anything besides what she was comfortable with. This was a really interesting phenomenon. And don't we all do some of this? We know that we don't have exposure to what else is out there. But then we go to an organization's careers page and the first thing we look at are roles that we already know something about, it's insanity, but we just can't help ourselves. So Lisa realized this mid-career change, and she kept returning to her research comfort zone. And she somehow had to escape that. So instead of going completely rogue to a new industry and new roles, she decided to look for roles within her current organization, the University of California, San Francisco, which luckily, has a ton of different departments and jobs. Now, towards the end of this episode, Lisa and I walk through her ideal career profile, and examine all of the must haves she identified, and how she searched for them during her job hunt. So I want you to pay attention for that. It's really interesting to connect it all back together. Lisa is now a project manager with UCSF where she works to improve vaccine rates in her local healthcare system. So let's get into the conversation. Here's Lisa taking us back to the beginning of her career.

Lisa Vu 03:47

I graduated during the recession. And so that's sort of kind of, not dictated my career path but it was hard to get jobs. So for one, it was my first crossroads of what do I do with my life. I really didn't have a clear plan. And I think through a connection when my friend's friends was like, "Hey, I know someone who's hiring for a research assistant position." And I interviewed and I got it. And this was like, six months after I graduated, which was actually pretty good for the time because I knew people who would take or it took 9 to 12 months to get a job. And so I was a research assistant, and then a research coordinator for a couple of years. And then I had talked with a friend who got a Master's in Public Health. And so I decided to pursue that before I accepted my job and took this job in order to get more experience for it. So I went to school, went back to school, it was a really great experience got to meet a lot of people and take a lot of great classes. And then I graduated after a couple of years. And then I took a job as a project manager working on a lot of cool projects. But it was a job that was not, looking back, it was a pretty unhealthy environment. And so it was also another point of like, I suppose, graduating again, and what do I do next. And so I actually was offered two jobs. One was at the place I used to work before then, and it was very familiar. And it was kind of the same job I did before but a little bit more money. And then the other job, which was the stressful job I ended up taking because it paid slightly more, but I felt like oh, I need more experience, something different. And so there's a lot of great things I learned from this job right after grad school. It forced me to get outside my comfort zone and really forced me to lead as a project manager in ways I wouldn't have before because I would have just been wanting to have someone show me what to do. But that wasn't really the case. It's just gonna... you're just thrown into it. So which is not uncommon.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:16

That is not uncommon. True story.

Lisa Vu 06:18

Yeah. So, but it was just not a place that had enough support, in my opinion. And we kind of have very high expectations where a lot of people like in my position with less experience, you know. And so I eventually decided to look for another job. My next role was being a, like, a research lead for... It was really cool. The work for this company was very cool. We did social marketing type work, especially in public health. So if you see an ad for, like, HIV testing, or smoking cessation, it would be like plastered around the city and in other cities as well, we had clients in different departments of health in New York. And so our work would be like, that was really cool work. And I supported that with my research knowledge and skills. I was the research department, I guess. And so I was the one person, it was a very small group of people. So that was very fun and cool. Although, after a couple of years, I realized that was very under-stimulating and not challenging for me. And I was, like, the one person that did it. And, I look back and consider that as like kind of my buffer position to kind of recover from a previous toxic position. So it was very easy for me, it was very comfortable. So I was like, "Okay, this is good. I need this to kind of recover from that previous job." But I didn't really, I think looking back, it would have been beneficial to think about. I think I thought about what I didn't like, and what I would do differently. But I didn't really do the internal change type of stuff. Like I was doing direct coaching. And so I think that led me to kind of repeat the pattern of just continuing to stay in my comfort zone in this next job where I would be at for seven years.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:16

Does it been a pattern for you in other places? Besides those two roles.

Lisa Vu 08:20

The first role I had right outside of or right after undergrad, that was also a very comfortable role. And so I feel like most of my career except for the one toxic position, that was very stressful most of my career. If you're counting the four roles now.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:38

Oh, I count it.

Lisa Vu 08:39

Yeah. The three out of the four were very just lowkey independent, which sounds really great, right? So like, I'm getting paid for doing, you know, just, yeah. So it was just familiar and comfortable. And that's kind of what I knew.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:58

But also simultaneously, it sounds like not the type of stimulation or challenge that really was beneficial for you. And sounds like not necessarily the type of collaboration or involvement with other people that you were looking for, as well.

Lisa Vu 09:16

Yeah, I mean, I will say I think the people were probably it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:22

In what way?

Lisa Vu 09:23

Well, I will say that the really unhealthy job I had, the best part was the people, like, we supported each other. We're all stressed out of our minds, but we were there for each other, we hung out, not like you know, like I have to be best friends with people outside of work. But it was just we had this camaraderie that are just really appreciated. And same for other workplaces that they're just really helped make the experience better for me. And it was something I overlooked because my most recent job that I left that was quite unhappy and it did not have any of that. And so, it was something I kind of felt early on, but I ignored it. Because it was something that I felt was too small of a reason to move on and find another job. And I didn't think about this until later on in my career coaching. But yeah, when you're in a job, when you're working, because it's full time, takes a lot of your time, you're being conditioned, one way or another. And it was like, "Wow, I did not realize that." And that's really what I felt was happening in my previous job where I was not really getting interaction, I was not getting feedback about how to be better, or growth or, you know, anything like that. And so that really, I just was felt conditioned to because that was my reality. And I felt like that was normal. And that was what it was supposed to be. Which is, yeah, that's kind of the scary part.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:00

At what point did you recognize, do you remember any point in time where it caused you to then feel like, "No, I have to do something about this. I have to do something different." What was that point in time for you?

Lisa Vu 11:12

I think just frustrations at work just started getting more amplified. Maybe beforehand, it was just an annoyance. But I was getting very frustrated. And just like, starting to get thoughts of like, I don't want to be at this job, or I should start considering something else. And also just thinking about, like, maybe my friends and husband are tired of hearing me complain all the time. But more of that it's like, oh, I'm doing this a lot more. And so. But just I noticed how things would set me off a little bit more than it used to. Another added thing is that didn't help was, of course, the pandemic.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:55

Just throw a pandemic on top. Exactly.

Lisa Vu 12:00

I think I probably would have started searching sooner. And I think I was within the pandemic happen, looking for another job or another career path or whatever. And at that time, it was very hard to think about like, well, I have my very secure job right now. And so where I, thankfully, don't need to use too much of my brain, you know, and that's what felt like. So it was helpful at the time at the beginning, with all that was going on that I didn't need to have to be checked in as much and still be on top of my job. But after a while, yeah, I think what really kept me in my role was not this kind of narrative or thoughts of, I have it pretty good now. Like, you know, people would kill for a role where you didn't have to do a ton and got little oversight, and I kind of got to do whatever I wanted as long as I got the job done.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:02

So for you, the couple elements that were really great, like having that ability to act pretty independent, pretty flexibly, had a lot of autonomy, and just delivered the results. The thought of giving that up, if you will, kind of overshadowed and kept you in that role for it sounds like longer than you want it to be.

Lisa Vu 13:27

Yeah, that plus the fear of entering a very toxic environment like I had done in the past. Especially as I was hearing about a lot of people I knew who were in those types of environments themselves, especially during the pandemic, where jobs are cut, and people had to take on, you know, two roles without getting compensated for it. It would just made me more scared. I think my anxiety just got especially heightened with the pandemic and that just translated to being anxious about moving outside of my comfort zone for work, also.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:10

Okay, let's talk about that then. So when you finally made the decision, "Hey, look, I'm doing this. In one way or another, I'm going full in and I'm gonna make this change." What did you do at that point? What did you try at that point? What did the beginning stages of making a change look like for you?

Lisa Vu 14:31

It was really listening to a few different career change podcasts, including yours, because I'd never heard, like, testimonials or people's stories like that, that sounded like mine, which was very eye-opening for me because I just felt alone because I wasn't being overworked and burned out the same way that we typically hear people going through career changes or who were very stressed at work. It made me feel even more alone and that even thinking like, "Oh, I shouldn't be complaining." Of course, that's looking back now, that was just not helpful at all. I was just kind of kicking myself while I was down. But yeah, it was very eye-opening to hear the stories. And then I think with your podcasts, you're the only one that has actual client interviews. And so that was especially helpful to hear different varieties of stories. So even if it wasn't exactly the same, there were many components that really resonated with me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:37

Well, I appreciate that immensely. And the other question that I have for you, too, is, when you think about this process, what was the hardest part or most uncomfortable part for you, through the process of career change?

Lisa Vu 15:56

I don't know if I can pick a singular one.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:59

But let's go for a few.

Lisa Vu 16:01

Yeah, at the beginning, it was a little bit hard because I didn't know anyone else who had done incurred career coaching, and especially the investment involved, it's like, oh, you know, the thoughts of, I don't know, I have to pay money to do stuff. I could be doing on my own. But then eventually got to a point where it doesn't matter. Admitting to myself, I need some help with this and that's something I've always struggled with, is reaching out for help. And so this is where I'm at least the one thing I didn't know what I was going to look like, I didn't know exactly what I was going to do. But the one thing I was trying to tell myself is like, this is your chance to reach out for some help.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:49

Yeah. So people who have that same tendency to think, oh, I should do this on my own. I should make a career change on my own. I should mow my lawn on my own. I don't know pick the thing in here. But we're talking particularly about pursuing an intentional career, which, strangely is, we all know this isn't really something like we're taught in college or anything else. But we all sort of think that we should do this on our own. So what advice would you give that person who's going through a bit of that I need to do this on my own?

Lisa Vu 17:20

I mean, it is worth it to look outside of yourself even if it's not involving another human being coaching you like looking whether that looks like resources or learning some more because I just don't feel like we're meant to take on something so big like this by ourselves. And there's just too much for one person, not to mention that there's just so much we've kind of been programmed or ingrained about what the job hunting process is. Unless you've made lots of different changes to your approach over your career, if you're going to be doing the same thing and especially doing it by yourself, you're probably not going to yield many changes. So yeah, I definitely highly advise people, and I get for some things there's an investment component that's totally understandable. But it's so worth looking at least getting an additional perspective or just learning something that you don't know already about approaching career change. I highly advise it. Yeah, you're not weak. You're not like, I just don't know where that came from where you have to do something yourself. But yeah, I don't know. I think it's this culture of independence that something about like, you should be able to do this on your own. But even if you could, you don't get that outside perspective. Because there's such a huge world of different careers and career types and all these aspects that go into a career like how are you going to do that on your own? Whether it's doing what you know already and whatnot.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:09

Yeah. So this is one of the thing that I wanted to just ask you about, you've mentioned it a couple of times, just about getting outside your comfort zone. And when you initially got into your ICP, being an ideal career profile, which behind the scenes is a simple tool that we use in order to begin to build what we call our ideals and minimums or rather a checklist of what you might need for your next career change. Anyhow, so you came up with some of those hypotheses that, yeah, more than one hypothesis that you wanted to explore. And I wanted to ask you first about it after you got past that stage and got into reach out that seemed to be an area that was very outside your comfort zone, what made it outside your comfort zone, and what helped with that?

Lisa Vu 20:08

I think it was... So what my struggle was, I would get just get ahead of myself when I'm thinking about who to reach out to, it was easy for me to reach out to my friends who were in the career path I was exploring. But, you know, I needed to reach out to beyond that. And so that's where I got kind of in my head, like, thinking ahead and trying to predict like, "Oh, they're gonna think this and that", and it just kind of getting in my own way versus just doing it. And so I think what really clicked for me to do, it was like, this is just experimenting, and I started thinking kind of like, a researcher. So you're testing hypotheses, like you said, and there's no outcome you're aiming towards, like in research. I mean, of course, you might have things that you might be leaning towards happening, but you don't let that affect you, that's a bias, you know, what that affects your outcome. What your outcome is your outcome. And that's what it is. And it's not right or wrong, you know, and so, I don't know, if something just clicked where I just gotten to a research mind and was like, if it ends up being something that doesn't work, then it doesn't work. And that's where I find out and, I know that's what's been in your boot camp. And that's what been practiced with the method and coaching, but it just didn't click until kind of then. And then that's where I started just firing off some messages on LinkedIn even, I was a little nervous about that. I'm like, I haven't really done a cold message on LinkedIn before. And I think emailing people within my academic institution because it's really big. And then, of course, as predicted, or as you know, said, the actual interactions were pretty good. People were very willing to talk. And I think looking back, that was what I was a little nervous about, like, "Am I bothering them?" But most people were really willing to talk. And I would say, it was the practice of doing that that led me to my job, rather than the connections, but also, what I learned along the way helped for me to strike out anything like okay, maybe I don't want to do this.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:34

What's an example of something along the way where it came up and you're like, "Yeah, this isn't right for me."? But obviously, it sounds like now you look at that as great feedback. But what's the example of a time where that happened?

Lisa Vu 22:49

Oh, there's a role I was looking into. It was like a protocol manager because one of the things I uncovered or was trying to during my whole process was, "What do I like to do?" So I was like, I actually like to write up protocols, which as nerdy as it sounds, but it's just like, I just like doing stuff like that and writing things that or making resources for people on informing them how to do things or understand something better. So, there was a role specifically for that. But then after I talked to a couple of people, I learned that that role, at least at my institution, has been transformed to something that's more supervisory, which I didn't really want, at least not more than a couple of people. And this would be part of my job. And I didn't want that. So I was like, "Okay, maybe not that."

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:43

That's amazing. That's really cool. Because it sounds like you initially thought, "Hey, this could be something that is great for me." It seems to fit at a phase level. And then as you got deeper in, as you had some of those conversations it sounded like, then you start to get in indications that, nope, this is... yes, maybe that stuff is there. But also included as a whole bunch of other things that are really don't want.

Lisa Vu 24:11

And what drew me to it was, I probably would have been a good candidate because it's familiar in certain ways. And I think I have the background for it. And I was told, as such from the people I talked to, but yeah, that was something that was hard to tell myself because I think that was something I realized about myself, whatever I'm very qualified for, or seems easiest to get, in a way, that's what I get drawn towards, but without really questioning whether does this fit with what I said I want.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:42

That's really amazing because you, one, recognize that about yourself, which is huge just on its own, but also, you were able to turn... can stop pursuing this particular opportunity. And so I'm curious what caused you to be able to say, "No, this is just not for me."? When every time in the past you would have been like, "Yeah, I should keep going."

Lisa Vu 25:12

I think it's, I mean, the ICP and all the work I've been doing, and really the investment. I was just like, I want to make sure it's very aligned, and not just take the easy way out. So I think knowing that, well, especially the parts I didn't like about the role, as tempted as I was to kind of ignore it, I knew I just wouldn't have liked it. Or that was just an aspect that I wanted to listen to that. And also, because I'd been in my role, the role I was in while I was looking for a job for so long, I wanted it to be very, as aligned as I could be, not necessarily a perfect job, but just aligned in the ways I wanted it to be. So I didn't want to leave my role for just the next thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:03

When you say that it was partially the ICP, what about the ideal career profile helped in that situation?

Lisa Vu 26:14

Just all the areas, the aspects of the career that I had listed out that I try and remember what they are, but that I wanted on.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:24

Example of one minimum here. And this comes from Megan on our team who you got to work with. She said, you know, having at least one other person who understands my job role, and I can go to with questions, that'd be an example of your minimum, you must have that at all costs. But then your ideal will look like having more than that having at least three people who understand my job role and I can collaborate with.

Lisa Vu 26:47

Yeah, because in my past roles, I was the only one that knew what I knew. I mean, I am like that to an extent, at least where I work now, there's at least another project manager who may work on different projects, but she has the knowledge of being one already where I work, and I can go to her. And that's what I wanted. But it didn't have before. It was very lonely in past roles to really feel like I didn't have anyone to go to. I'm sure if I really put more energy into it, I could have found something. But like kind of talking about conditioning before I felt in a way that I couldn't really depend on my environment to help me out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:31

So let's talk about that. Because one of the things that I think you did very well, and I know Megan agrees, was making some mindset shifts. And one in particular, and was realizing that you could trust yourself after you had some of those past experiences, past roles that had constantly made you doubt yourself. So I'm curious, what did that look like for you? What did that mindset shift or some of the mindset shifts look like? And how did those help?

Lisa Vu 28:03

I would say one of the first ones was when her and I were thinking of what two different paths to explore. And this was one of the reasons I signed up for the coaching because I was like, I literally don't know what to put in my search engine. Like, what I know. So a little part of it was like, "What do I put in there?" I mean, it's more than that. But she asked me, let's think of four or five different paths, or jobs or whatever that you'd want to explore. And I came up with two or three. And that was hard for me to come up with the rest because I was just in my head about what I could or, quote-unquote, was allowed to pursue. And so her encouragement of kind of just thinking outside it, even if there was just no chance of me, you know, being, I don't know, that's me kind of channeling the voice I had back then, you know, like, I only wanted to explore if I knew there was a chance of being good at it or having some success with it, or some degree of success. But coming up with those things to put in a search engine or ideas of pathways to explore, I think that was a big mindset shift. Because one of the things I was interested in exploring was just the field of human-centered design, user experience, a lot of different words for it, but you know, and even like the word design kind of was limiting to me at the time because I was like, I'm not a designer or just the way I thought about it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:45

I can never be a designer.

Lisa Vu 29:48

Yeah, but that was what helped me even exploring it. You know and so, I've talked to a lot of people who are in the field, like friends and otherwise and I learned that it was a very good fit for what my interests were and my skills. And the cool thing about human-centered design is it's not so exclusive where maybe certain roles are but like any, I feel like just like public health, a lot of different industries or a lot of different fields can go alongside it or utilize it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:24

Yeah. So that's interesting. So what I hear you saying is that, initially, the way that you were thinking about even paths to explore, you found yourself kind of qualifying those or not allowing you to explore and so you were trying to come up with, use the example, like, I'm trying to come up with four or five different paths, but you could only come up with two or three, because you were editing out all the rest of those that actually could have been a good fit. And then, that's fascinating. What advice would you give to someone else who finds themselves doing the same thing? Because I think that's pretty common. It's pretty common for us to say, "Oh, I could never do that." Or, "Oh, but that's only for people *insert*." What advice would you give to people who are thinking that?

Lisa Vu 31:14

I mean, I think this is something along the lines of what Megan told me, just give yourself permission to just explore, I'm trying to remember how she said it, but just exploring really without an outcome. And that's hard, I will say that. But to just not think of the outcome, which the angles to get a job, right? But once I started not thinking about getting a job, then it became a lot more exploratory, more creative. And it kind of got me a little bit more in touch with just the creative side of my brain to in this process, just like how important that is. And I just never use it in terms of my work and stuff. And just allowing yourself to not be attached to, which is hard. Because when I was exploring, I would still automatically go to the careers page of a company and see what roles, and then I would do the qualifying thing like, "Oh, this would be good." But I will say for me, it took a while to break out of that. So...

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:18

It's that conditioning, right?

Lisa Vu 32:19

Yeah. So I started with how about we don't look at the careers tab or...

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:24

Stay away from careers stab at all costs.

Lisa Vu 32:26

Yeah. And then eventually, when I let myself look at the careers tab again, let's not look for roles that are exactly what you do already, or, you know, let's open or even just opening roles that were completely different than what I was used to, was even that little thing was kind of a big thing for me to just let myself look at something like literally just look at it. I'm not committing to it. You know.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:57

You know, I will tell you in 10 years, I have never heard anybody talk about that one piece of it the same way that you just did. Like the, we want to change. We recognize that we don't have exposure to other types of roles, jobs, needs, professions, all the things, and yet when we go to a careers page, we will only allow ourselves to look at what we've already done or what we're already familiar with. Isn't that crazy? It happens a lot all the time.

Lisa Vu 33:34

Yeah. Megan even said, "Don't look at research positions", and I did anyways. It was just so... Part of it just to get on my system, like, I have this urge. I just got to do it. So it's just yeah, it's just kind of wild to like, kind of uncover that about me what I'm just so used to leaning towards.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:56

Yeah. That's fascinating. And great job too, recognizing that. I think Megan had said this, but I'm getting the degree of which your self-awareness extends. And that's pretty cool because you can't really make the type of change that you did without having a prerequisite level of self-awareness. Otherwise, it's really difficult and nearly impossible to be able to do and it's already hard enough with this.

Lisa Vu 34:25

Yeah. Well, that's pretty great to hear. And yeah, I look back and I'm like, "Wow, I'm glad I was able to catch that."

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:34

Tell me a little bit about what was on your ICP that you remember, that you recall, or what are the pieces that you had identified that you wanted that now you feel like you have in your newest role?

Lisa Vu 34:50

I mean, the one that you pulled out as an example about having at least one other person who has at least some shared knowledge of my role that was pretty helpful. Just being in, I don't know how to, I think I put something like people I would want to go to lunch with or something. Which, you know, if you asked me before all this, it would have just sounded like such a small detail. But after being in roles that were just so isolating, it just became a very important thing to me. Yeah, it still feels weird to say out loud. And it's not like my top thing. But it's just something that is important also. Because everything else could be great, but if I'm not interacting with people, and I'm an introvert.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:43

You and me both.

Lisa Vu 35:46

Like, it just really, yeah, it just really impacted my mental health to not get the interaction, even those little interactions with people. Again, I don't feel like I could be best friends with people at work. And I definitely feel like there has to be... I have my boundaries and stuff. But just having those little interactions, especially if support and things like that, they're very important.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:10

I think one of the things that stood out to me was, a lot of your strengths feed into collaboration. And I know you've mentioned collaboration a couple of times, but it sounded like that was pretty important. And even though you're an introvert, even though you can do analytical really well, and you can do research really well, being isolated, obviously not a great thing for you, but more so, having the right type of collaboration is amazing for you, that creates a much, much better situation. It sounds like the right people to collaborate with as well, the people that you could do the lunch with.

Lisa Vu 36:46

Yeah, people who care to check in and things like that, which again, it doesn't sound like much, but it's just like when you don't have that it can really impact you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:56

Yeah. What else have we not covered here that you would want people to know? Either about your process or about anything else that we haven't covered.

Lisa Vu 37:05

I think we hit a lot of major points. I will say that, and this is what I've been telling people like one of my biggest takeaways of what I learned about myself, and through this process, or what was uncovered, anyways, was that like, I think I became very apathetic in my last job where I was at for seven years. And that was just such a dangerous place to be. And it's just so subtle, too, which makes it really hard. And so I think, once I realized I just was at a point where I just don't care. That just really, or maybe I don't care as much as I want to. It creeps in. And it really impacted my mental health, impacted other parts of my life where, I don't know how to fully explain, but yeah. So I would say, if anyone ever gets to that point, I mean, there's a lot of important things about a job like finances and benefits. Yes, I understand that. But after considering all that, it kind of doesn't matter what other aspects of your job may seem good if you kind of don't care anymore. So I would say at the very least, it's a sign to kind of reflect on that or reflect what might be behind it. So if I were ever feel that again, then I know now it's a sign to look into it more.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:37

Hey, if you love this story where we talk through and walk you through step by step how someone got to more meaningful work, then you'll absolutely love our audiobook– Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. I even got to narrate it, which was so fun. And something that I really enjoyed doing and will definitely do for future books as well. But it also contains firsthand accounts from career changers on how they made the move to more meaningful work, just like we include on the podcast here. And actually, it's been called the best audiobook experience ever by some reviewers. You can find those reviews, and the book itself on Audible, Amazon, or any other place where books are sold. Seriously, just pause this right now and go over to Amazon or Audible or wherever you want and download it. You can be reading it and started on your career change in literally seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:32

Now, here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week right here on Happen to Your Career.

Speaker 3 39:37

Do you even want to be at this place? Or is this just a job for you? If it's just a job, that's fine, but you're probably going to want a new one relatively quickly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:48

When you're making a career transition, how will you recognize what is actually a great fit for you? We get many questions from Happeners all over the world, which we love, but I've never actually had anyone ask me that question. And in many ways, it is the question. The simple answer is, well, unless you've done some certain work, you probably won't. We've had so many clients that have had the same story over and over again. They take many months to define what they want, they experiment to validate that that's actually what they want in the real world. And then miraculously, it seems to appear out of nowhere. Here's what actually happens. The opportunities were there the whole time. But if you don't know what to look for, the same opportunity that might already be there just passes you by, like, two ships in the night. And you never realized that it was so close to you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:46

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Angie Griffith 00:01

I didn't know all the things that I could do and trying to figure out what that would be was a real struggle for me.

Introduction 00:16

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:41

If you are looking for work that truly fits you, you might already know we usually recommend against job boards. Why? Well, creating your ideal role normally requires a lot of customization to fit your needs. And you're not likely to find that on job boards. But what if you could make job boards work for you? What would that look like? What if you could find a role that seems like it was already custom-made for you, stand out amongst hundreds, if not thousands of applicants, and then get a job offer after just one interview?

Angie Griffith 01:13

I wrote a cover letter that really was from the heart. I thought, well, why not? I'm gonna just say what I feel. And it got me an interview.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:27

That's Angie Griffith. Angie had been unsatisfied with her career for a really long time. In fact, she hadn't never really known what it was to feel fulfilled by work or to fully enjoy her career. She liked some aspects of her jobs throughout the years. But she wanted to find a job that contained all of the things that she enjoyed. So she began working with a coach. Angie did a fantastic job of uncovering what she really needed and what she really wanted out of a career. And this was not an easy thing for. She did such a great job that she was able to recognize when she found that perfect fit and saw it listed on Indeed.com. Of course, we just mentioned a moment ago that we usually recommend staying away from LinkedIn jobs or Indeed.com. They're not bad companies. They're great organizations. But Angie had done so much work learning what she wanted and needed out of her ideal role, that she was not only able to recognize a perfect fit, but she was able to market herself in a way that she stood out to the company and landed her an interview really quickly. And Angie was right. This organization agreed she was the perfect fit and hired her after just one interview. So now let's get into the conversation so you can hear the authentic work that Angie did to go from a career in the financial industry to doing work she loves in employment services.

Angie Griffith 02:48

So really, I guess it kind of started with I went to school to get my bachelor's degree and I chose finance, which I chose because you know, we are living in a small town, there's opportunities for banks and in different types of industry. So I chose that and I was pretty good at it. But it was like the least social job in the entire world, which is so not who I am. Or it was all about sales. And I do not like sales unless I really believe in the product. So that's where I kind of started. And I didn't obviously know this at the time. But when my first job after school, I worked at a bank, and they pushed the sales parts so much and that we had these goals that we had to reach. And what I didn't like was the fact that no one cared about the customer. It was all about making the sale. And I had a customer come in who got put into something that was totally wrong for her. She got tucked into something that wasn't a good fit. And she ended up losing money, I was like, I can't do this. I can't push sales on to somebody who doesn't know better. I can't do that. I couldn't force somebody just so that I could make my goals or do something that was to me unethical.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:30

Yeah, I can fully appreciate that. And I've had similar experiences too. And it sounds like that was a pretty formative experience for you. What happened then?

Angie Griffith 04:39

Well, I worked into an Events Coordinator position, and I really enjoyed it. I was out at trade shows, I was making reservations for our commissioners and party planning, and all of those types of things that I just loved. But when we were slow, we were slow. And that's basically where I started thinking I love certain aspects of this job, but I'm bored out of my mind. So that's kind of when I decided I needed to do something different and I just had experienced, you know, more in financial things. And we moved. And I was commuting back and forth to this job because I could work on my hybrid schedule, so partially from home. And that's when I decided when I ended up googling podcasts, and this is how I came across your podcast, and I started listening to it on my way back and forth. And I was like, "Oh, I love this." It was so inspiring to me. And I'm like, I kept up on all of them, I went to back ones that I hadn't listened to. And I decided before winter, I needed to make a change that I couldn't go back and forth. It just wouldn't work out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:11

So then let me ask you about that decision point. And when you made that decision that you needed to make a change, what prompted, what occurred to you, or what took place? Was there one thing that you remember that led up to that or where you're like, "Ah, I have to do this."?

Angie Griffith 06:33

Well, after listening to the podcast as often as I did, I realized that I just wasn't really thriving in what I wanted to do with my life. And I know, periodically throughout my career, I had felt that way. But I didn't know exactly what it was that I was looking for. And that's pretty much what prompted me to get coaching is that I just, I knew that I could do more, I knew that my strengths were more in a social aspect. And finance wasn't cutting it. It was worrying and not social unless you're doing sales. But I didn't like that. So that's kind of where I started. The journey is just, I knew that I wanted to do something different. I wanted to make a difference in someone's life, I wanted it to feel good at the end of the day, I want it to feel good at the end of the day that I was helping someone and I know, you know, in the podcasts all the time, everybody's kind of helping someone in some indirect way. But I wanted to help people in a more direct way and more one-on-one and group. And that's kind of what I found.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:58

That's amazing. That is absolutely amazing. So tell us about what is your role now. And then let's talk about, like, what are the pieces that you were looking for, learned you were looking for that line up really well.

Angie Griffith 08:13

Okay, so now I'm an employment services coordinator. And I help disabled people find employment. And the disability can be anything from physical to mental. There's a very wide range of the disabilities and I determine with them what kind of jobs they want to be in, whether we can find a fit for them. And then we work with businesses, networking with different businesses and trying to find good fits for these people. And it is very rewarding to me, I get to work one-on-one with my clients, I get to when they do get jobs, I go and I support them at their work. And the goal is to get them self-sufficient, but we support them until they feel comfortable with their role and can work on their own. So it's fabulous.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:22

That's amazing. It also is not lost on me that the pieces where you're not only interacting one-on-one in the way that you had said that you wanted to. But also you get to go out into the community and it sounds like continue to build relationships with either business owners or people who are in charge of activities or any number of other things and one of the things that has stood out to me about you since you lived in Moses Lake at one point and you moved to Spokane, we got to meet up a couple of times for coffee. And what stood out to me is that you are… amazing really doesn’t do it justice. But you're amazing at being able to interact with other people and be outgoing and that you sort of thrive in that type of situation and just being around people in ways that I think other people find really challenging. That's fun for you. And you do a phenomenal job at it. So it's really cool.

Angie Griffith 10:28

Thank you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:29

Yeah, absolutely. It's really cool to be able to see you get into this situation that really leverages this thing that you sort of do anyways whether you're getting paid for it or not, that's fun.

Angie Griffith 10:41

Oh, it's so much fun. It's so enjoyable. I come home and I've told my husband, I said, "I feel like I'm playing." Like, it's so easy for me and the situation. And I love the client and I just have so much fun.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:05

That is really cool. I also know that since we got to meet a couple of times along the way, that getting there was not always as fun as that.

Angie Griffith 11:16

No, that part wasn't fun.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:18

Well, let's talk about that. When you, let's go back for a moment. You know, there was that point in time where you had decided, okay, like, I need to make a change, I need to do something about this. You had been listening to the podcast, now you're on the podcast. So that's really fun, that's full circle. But at this point in time, you had been listening to the podcast, made that decision, and then started the process of making your change. What surprised you along the way, or what was more difficult than what you thought it would be?

Angie Griffith 11:50

I would say that I didn't really know what was out there. You know, being in Moses Lake, the agriculture community, which I love, but I didn't know all the things that I could do, and trying to figure out what that would be was a real struggle for me. And even coming up with my ideal career profile. Every time I do a draft, then it'd be like, okay, dig deeper. I'm like, I thought I was digging deeper. Okay, well try this again. And I kept, you know, I kept on and kept on. And it hasn't really been about the money to me. I really, I mean, obviously, there were minimums, but it really was about the job satisfaction. And it was really hard for me, I went out and I did the things I was supposed to do. I was networking, I was talking to people, I was those things that were easy for me, that was great. Figuring out what I wanted to do was a completely other story. I struggled with that. And for a while, I was going on the path of HR, an engagement specialist, but then after talking to some people in that industry, it's so, what you have to deal with, you know, harassment things, and somebody I met with said something to me, and I was just like, "Oh." I was thinking I don't want to do that. That would be horrible. I wouldn't want to be the bad guy in situations, I wouldn't want to do that. So I was like, "Okay, well, I don't want to do that." So now what? Now where am I going? And I kept gravitating towards kind of helping people with employment ironically, when I was trying to figure out my own path. It's like, I don't want people to have to go through this, you know, I don't want people to have to be like, "Oh, I don't have a clue." And I wanted to help people work on their strengths. And I did kind of keep gravitating towards that kind of role. And I did do a lot of Indeed searching even though that's not really the path for HTYC, that's not usually the best path. But Ben and I talked and it was working for me. There was one particular job that I had applied for at a place that I wanted to work. I loved what their website said their culture was and all of that. And I went to the business, I ended up talking to the person who was doing the hiring. And I told her, I said, "Well, I wanted to talk to you first and ask you some questions because I don't know for sure if I want to apply." And so I did talk to her and I did apply. I did not get the job. I had interviewed with this particular business well on for three different positions and never got the job. And it was very disappointing. So I really, you know, I really struggled with that, and sometimes keeping on track with what I was doing with Ben, I'm pretty structured, I like structure. But then I got kind of overwhelmed. And I take care of the finances in our family of course.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:35

The finance degree, right?

Angie Griffith 15:39

Yes. So I'm like, "Okay, I'm not working now." Because that was one of the decisions I had made. I was just, I had quit a job about two or three weeks after I got it after I started working with Ben, because it was just a paycheck. And I couldn't do it. I hated it from the beginning, I knew I wasn't going to thrive in this industry. And I talked with my husband, we could manage on one paycheck for a while. And that was scary to me. Because I'm very, very structured. And that was hard. And then I started feeling after a while, okay, I'm not getting a job. And then I was getting panicked.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:35

So you had left the one role, which to you very much felt just like just a paycheck, you're just there for the paycheck. And I think we've established a pattern of just being there for the paycheck doesn't feel that great to you. And it's difficult in many different ways. And at the same time, you made the decision to leave. And I want to ask you about that. Because my understanding is, when you grew up, you grew up in a family that very much felt like, "Hey, you get your job, you stay there forever, you always work, you always do the things and you always have income coming in." and that's just the thing that you do. Tell me a little bit about that.

Angie Griffith 17:22

Yes, that is correct. You know, basically, you be thankful for what job you have, and you stick with it forever. I mean, there's no such thing as job satisfaction, as far as my parents were concerned, you know. So that was a hard thing for me because I've always grown up that you have to have a job, you have to be bringing in income. Work is work, it's not supposed to be fun. And, you know, it's that kind of attitude. So that was hard on me because those are very instilled things in me to, you know, to work all the time. So that was definitely my upbringing. And it really, I had to overcome a lot of beliefs relating to that for sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:16

What's an example of that?

Angie Griffith 18:18

I would say that it showed up kind of midway through my coaching because I started feeling, you know, Ben told me, he's like, "You have to let go of some of these things. That you should have job satisfaction. That is okay to want more. That's what we kind of strive for." And you know, obviously, these days, it's a little bit more prevalent. People do want job satisfaction. And it was hard. Ben had me read a book about kind of overcoming your fears. Because I was scared. I was scared of, one, failing at the next role that I would come across, I was very afraid that I was going to fail and that I would just continue this cycle of not being happy with my job.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:12

I remember talking briefly about that book with you. What was the name of it?

Angie Griffith 19:17

It was called "Taming Your Gremlin". And it really kind of went into your fears and not letting them overtake you. And that trying to understand when it was happening when your beliefs were wrong, and recognizing that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:41

Did it help? What helped about it for you? What stood out for you? What was the helpful part?

Angie Griffith 19:47

Well, I have a lot of self-doubt and beliefs that I wasn't capable of doing this. And so it really has helped me when I started my negative thought process. It was like, "Oh, that's not true." And so then I could rework it in my head to be like, "Yes, you can do this. And yes, it will be okay." And I've honestly even used that with some of my clients now where it's like, "That's not true, what's the worst that can happen, they don't hire you. It's not a big deal, then we keep searching."

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:30

That's fun. I think that's really fun for me that to get to see you go through this experience for yourself, move through some of the challenges of figuring out what you want, and then getting to use some of the things that you learned through the process to be able to help other people instantly. I think that is a really, really, I don't know if that does my heart good, Angie, that's pretty cool.

Angie Griffith 20:53

I think so too. I'm glad I went through it. I feel like I kind of needed to especially doing what I'm doing now. It's good because it's not easy. It's hard going through the process. And I had some really down times and, or Ben had to listen to meet cry a couple of times.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:13

Ben was totally there for it, totally there for it. And it's what we do, it's what we love to do. When we get to support people in that way and just show up for them, that is actually really fun for us, too. And, you know, much the ‘it's not right for everybody’, just like you were talking about HR, right? I worked in HR for a long time, and really enjoyed it. I not only didn't mind some of the harassment pieces, I actually felt like I was contributing when I got to work through some of those things and have a really positive outcome. And that also, I know, many people would hate doing that, like, just despise doing that. And that's totally okay. You know, one of the things I wanted to ask you about though is when you were going through this process, it sounds like the biggest challenges for you really were the mental side– the mental side being working through some of those things that you believed to be true, or some of the stories that you'd grown up with, or anything else. So my question is, what advice would you give for other people that are trying to change how they think about work and what they believe about work?

Angie Griffith 22:26

I would say, just do some exploring, you don't have a negative mindset. I know for myself I did have a negative mindset. And I don't know if where all that came from exactly. But it's okay to want more. And my advice would be if you're not happy, do something about it. If you're not happy in your work, or any area of your life, do something. Just take the steps to try something even if they don't work, at least you tried and you know that they don't work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:34

That's awesome. Let's talk about what led up to your getting this particular opportunity. So just take me through, like, what are the pieces that you did or that you experienced that then led to getting this offer and opportunity?

Angie Griffith 23:26

Well, going through the interviews on the place that I thought I absolutely had to work at and not getting the job, that was really hard. But I, you know, Ben and I talked, it was like, "Okay, well, it's not meant to be." You know, everyone probably believes in some sort of higher power. And it's like, well, if it's not meant to be, it's not meant to be, and that's okay. So I just kept moving forward. And I ended up finding this job on Indeed, which is very similar to the place that I wanted to work initially. And I'm like, "Okay, I'm going to just apply for this. And I wrote a cover letter that really was from the heart. I thought, well, you know, why not? I'm gonna just say what I feel. And it got me an interview. I mean, pretty quickly, like I applied. And two days later, I had a phone call for an interview. And when I went for my interview, it just felt so easy and so good. And the person who interviewed me was easy to talk to and we talked about the backgrounds of the other job coaches, and none of them had experience doing this and they chose people purposefully that didn't have this kind of experience or a social service degree or that type of industry that they didn't want them to come from that industry because they were, they wanted to think outside the box, they wanted some people who would think outside the box for the position. And after I left, it was right before the fourth of July, and they knew I was going to be gone and out of cell service. And I got a message on my way back, that they wanted to offer me the job. And I was so excited. And I told my husband before, I said, "If I don't get this job, I am going to be crushed." It just felt so good. The vibe, everything. And I ended up getting it and it met all of my wants and needs. I get to work from home part of the time, I get to work with clients part of the time. I get to work with employers part of the time. I get to work, party planning, or helping individuals at our classes. And it's so much fun.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:22

That is really wonderful. And I love the part, particularly about how, two things, and to be clear, a lot of the times for people it doesn't make sense for what they're after to apply. However, you know, I'm pretty familiar, not just with your situation, but Ben was keeping me in the loop the whole way too. And I really think it did make sense here. One, because you had already done the work to identify what could potentially be a great fit. And you could see ample evidence at this point that this was an organization, this was an opportunity that could potentially be an amazing fit. And then you did something to separate yourself out from everyone else, versus just like submitting the application or whatever else. What do you think it was about that particularly cover letter that caused them to say, "Yeah, I absolutely want to take a chance on this person."?

Angie Griffith 27:23

Well, I basically explained that I am looking for a career to help people. And I felt that this really aligned with who I am. And that I really taught from the heart in my cover letter. I totally put all my emotion into this letter. And I do think that's what got me the interview because I made it very clear that I thought that this would be such a rewarding opportunity. And then talking in the interview, it turned out that that's their philosophy as well. And part of what in my ideal career profile, I wanted an organization that was a team. And this organization is a team, we're not competing for clients. If you know somebody is looking for this type of job, and you know somebody, you go out and you help them find it even if it isn't your client. And my supervisors, they don't even like to be called boss because they think it's just a team. We're a team, we do things together, we help each other. And that was a huge thing that I wanted. That was pretty much top of the list of my ideal career profile. I want a culture where you can discuss things and you don't feel like it's like, "Okay, sure, you want to do it this way. But no, we can't do that." It's very much we have the autonomy to do to help our clients the best we can and how we want to do it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:22

I guess when you look back on the entire situation, and you think about the difference between the opportunity that you're in now, versus some of the other opportunities in the past, what differences stand out the most for you that are making it particularly good?

Angie Griffith 29:44

I would say that my previous employment, I pretty much liked most of my jobs that I've been in. I've always liked the people, most of them. Not all of them.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:01

Almost all the people.

Angie Griffith 30:04

But I wasn't able to make decisions on my own, how I saw fit. And I really like that I can do that now and there's such a variety of what I'm doing that I'm not bored. In most of my jobs, I've gotten bored. I need to have variety and this provides all of that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:38

Hey, if you love this story where we talk through and walk you through step by step how someone got to more meaningful work, then you'll absolutely love our audiobook– Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. I even got to narrate it, which was so fun. And something that I really enjoyed doing and will definitely do for future books as well. But it also contains firsthand accounts from career changers on how they made the move to more meaningful work, just like we include on the podcast here. And actually, it's been called the best audiobook experience ever by some reviewers. You can find those reviews, and the book itself on Audible, Amazon, or any other place where books are sold. Seriously, just pause this right now and go over to Amazon or Audible or wherever you want and download it. You can be reading it and started on your career change in literally seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:33

Now, here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week right here on Happen to Your Career.

Speaker 3 31:39

I wasn't being overworked and burned out the same way that, you know, you typically hear people going through career changes or were very stressed at work. It made me feel even more alone and that even thinking like, "Oh, I shouldn't be complaining."

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:57

Is being bored a good enough reason to leave my job? We actually get asked this question quite often. And I'll say this first. You don't need to justify wanting to leave whether you're burned out and overstimulated or bored and under-stimulated, you deserve a career that fits you. But here's the thing, this question gets me thinking. Burnout is talked about a lot. I mean, 500 million results came up when I typed a burnout into Google. But the thing that's not talked about enough, and why many people feel so alone when they experience it is how being bored and unstimulated at work can be just as draining as burnout.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:43

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:01

When you think about leaving your current company, they often fall into one of two categories. Movie-worthy visions, lighting the office on fire while flipping the bird on the way out the door. Well, the building slowly crumbles behind you. Or the option number two, being worried that your boss and all the people you care about are going to feel as though you flip them the bird and burn down the building, leaving everyone in the lurch while you go on to take care of your own life. But what if there were a completely different way? What if you could have your boss help you find a new role? What if your boss and co-workers supported your efforts to make a change while simultaneously you worked to set everyone up for success? That way when you left, they know that they're well taken care of. Let's put this another way. What if you didn't have to worry about burning bridges at all? And what if you have the support of the people that you work with to cross over your new bridge? That bridge still remains and everybody wins.

Introduction 01:05

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:31

When I left Target, if you're not familiar with Target– it's a big box retailer here in the States. Anyhow, I gave two months' notice so that they could work on backfilling my position, and I could work on setting them up for success. In later organizations, I gave six months' notice. I trained my replacement, I helped my entire team to have a seamless transition. I even got my boss's support to not have to come in on certain days. It happened to be started out with Thursdays until noon so that I could work on my transition, and everybody knew about it, and it was okay. I know that sounds insane. But here's what I've learned. When you take care of the people around you, it invites them to reciprocate. To be clear, this isn't just me, we've duplicated this result with many of our clients all over the world, some of which you've heard on this podcast. Here's the thing though, if you want to get insane results, it requires a pretty big reframe to the question from, you know, how can you leave without burning bridges, which is where many people start, like, I just don't want to burn a bridge. And we need to ask a different question. A question like, "How could you leave while setting up your team, your organization, your co-workers, your clients, all the people that surround you for success when you leave? How could you set them up so that they were actually better off without you?" Wouldn't that be crazy, right? What if it could actually be a better situation for everyone involved? Well, usually, when I first pitch this idea to our clients, or our team pitches this idea to our individual clients, we have to sift through quite a few mental blocks before we can discuss how to get their boss to support their change. Let's spend a little bit of time talking about what stops people, what are some of those mental blocks. Well, as it turns out, many people view these two things as conflicting goals. And that's understandable. I completely get it. I've felt that way too. But I want you to take Michael's story for example. You might have heard him on our previous episode.

Michael 03:45

I landed at Sony, again, no plan, other than getting an accounting job at a studio. I then was there for 18 years. So started out as a senior financial analyst in September of 2001. And I left as a vice president of worldwide distribution finance in the beginning of 2019. And like I said, I never planned on any of this. But once I started at Sony, I could see that the more you can handle, the more they would throw at you. I was very fortunate to have some great bosses that really knew how to challenge you. And it just sustained me. It sustained me for almost 20 years. But at the end, it got to this point where the demands of the job were felt like 24/7 365. And for someone like me that is a perfectionist and didn't really realize that it just didn't work anymore, it got to the point where I physically couldn't keep myself going and mentally I was just overwhelmed all the time and just worried constantly about too many things and not able to fix anything perfectly or make anything work perfectly. It was not a good combination.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:57

Okay, Michael was a VP of Finance in California. And his health was deteriorating rapidly to the point where his doctor told him that he was going to die if he kept going and didn't do something about his job. Even then, he viewed himself as the only person who could do his role. If he left, that meant he was letting people down, particularly the people who reported to him. If he left, he felt like he might be giving up everything that he had worked so hard for. Okay, this is sort of understandable too, because if you delve a little bit into Michael's situation, a lot of his strengths have to do with turning chaos into harmony. And this situation that he was in very much created the opposite effect, especially when he thought about leaving.

Michael 05:44

I had a great team of people under me and that sustained me for years. And I felt like it was my duty to suffer through this job because I wanted to see my team advance, I wanted to see them get promoted, take on more responsibility, right. I think the last probably three years I was there, I was doing it out of a sense of duty to the people that worked for me, but I also have the sense of, and I think this is common for people who get burned out is you have this irrational sense of importance of the work, like I felt like if I'm not there, stuff is gonna fall apart. If I'm not there, no one else is going to be able to do these things, and they won't be perfect, and they won't be right, and they won't be on time. I have to keep going. And I did that until I physically couldn't do it anymore.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:35

So here's what I wanted to do, I want to give you an idea of what a path forward can look like. How that might sound, what could you say to your boss. Now, I want to share a bit of a prerequisite here. The reality is when we do this with our clients in the stories that you've heard on the podcast, every single time we're taking people's individual situations into account– the specific people that they're working with, how those people operate, identifying ways to best build trust with them. So I just want to acknowledge that it really does depend on each individual situation for the best ways to do this. In some cases, in a small amount of cases, we advise people not to do what you're going to hear about. But it really is case-dependent. So I just want to call that out upfront here. So what does it sound like to have this type of conversation with your boss? Well, you might go to your boss, initially, before the conversation and ask if you can talk to them about something important. By the way, this triggers them to think that it's an out-of-the-norm conversation, which is. It absolutely is. This is incredibly critical to the point where I felt the need to say incredibly because you don't want them to be surprised. Even if you're not telling them immediately what you want to talk about, you don't want them to be out of left field surprised. And you also want them to give a different level of attention to this request. They might ask if you can do it right away and tell them you'd really like to do it outside the office, or someplace that's abnormal, get someplace where you're not gonna get interrupted, that's going to be important too. And also asked for it at a later date, as well. Because a lot of people's tendencies are, "Yeah, well, we can just talk right now." And you can absolutely say, "You know, I'm not prepared to talk right now. It is important but I also want to make sure that we have time and space to talk about it. Don't worry, nobody's dying. But I do want to give it the space that it requires." So schedule something with them, get on their calendar, make sure that you're both going to be able to be there, and devote the time and attention. And then when you get there, here's how the conversation might sound. Initially, we want to lead with gratitude, "Hey, I want you to know that I have really, really enjoyed my time here. The last five years have been amazing. I have learned so much. I'm really appreciative for all the things you've done." And you can list some of those specific things that you actually appreciate in reality, then you might go on to say, "You know, I've come to the realization that even though there are promotional opportunities here, at some point, I'm planning to look outside the organization. I'm not talking about tomorrow. I'm not talking about a month from now. But at some point in the future, I know that it's going to come my time. And I really wanted to give you a heads-up. So it could be over the next year or so. But whatever time period, I really wanted to make sure that you are set up for success. The team here is set up for success, and that I'm set up for success as I make a change. So I'm coming to you to talk about this now because I wanted to ask your advice on what you see for how we can do this, how we can set you and the rest of the team and myself up for success. I really want to make sure that we've got a plan in place. I already have some ideas, but it's really important to me that I get your advice on this area." Okay, what you'll want to do is, you'll already want to have some ideas coming into this conversation about how you can set the team up for success, you may have already thought about who could be your backfill, you may have already thought about what would be the time period and resources it would take to train that person, you may have already thought about what projects to take on over the next six months or so or not to take on for that matter. And that is all going to be important because you want to have those in your back pocket to be able to suggest as you're going through this process. But first, it's most important to get their reaction and their advice, whoever your boss or whoever you directly report to, that person. Again, here's how that might sound like. It might sound like, "Even though I don't plan on leaving anytime soon, I really wanted to just have a conversation where I could get your advice on how to set us all up for success." That can be it. That can be a simple way to begin that conversation. Now the reason advice is important here. You've heard me use the word advice several times. Now, there's other ways to ask for it. But what's important is that when you ask for someone's advice, it immediately triggers a part of the brain where they're now thinking about how to solve this problem, they're immediately thinking about how they can help. And they're starting to think about it through the lens that you're asking. And what we've done here is we've now made them a partner in this versus having that done to them. So that's really important. When you ask this way, it helps trigger a collaboration as opposed to a conflict. Now they are your partner. Pretty cool, right? Okay, let's talk about some examples of what success might look like. We already acknowledged that it could be as simple as helping to identify and train your backfill. I've done that before, personally, in many situations multiple times. We've also had many of our clients do something similar, whether it's identifying somebody who's already there, whether it is taking the necessary steps to recruit, and then train, there's a lot of different ways that you can do that. Coming up with some specifics around timelines, and having thought about what that will take will ease the concerns and worries tremendously for your team for whoever you report to. Because if it feels like it's all going to be on them, that's not going to feel amazing. It's not gonna feel like success. So one of our clients went so far as to identify all the gaps and potential issues for what they thought could happen if he was no longer there and identified a potential solution for each one. Then when he had that conversation with his boss, and he got to the part where he said, "Hey, I'd like to talk to you about how we could set the team up for success for whatever point I do actually leave." The boss actually didn't have any advice at that point. He was kind of flabbergasted and surprised. And as so then our client at that time said, "May I share with you some ideas that I've already thought of?" And then he proceeded to go through each one and recommend the rough time frame, the resources it might take to implement, and how he might be able to do so. So if the boss thought that there was any intent to abandon the post, that very quickly disappeared along with the proposed plan. Once you and your boss have a plan that you both feel good about, then you can talk about, "Well, how do we share this news? And at what point in time do we share this news with co-workers or clients or other people that you might be involved with?" And then it can be that type of partnership, again, where you're acting as a partner, as well as they're acting as a partner for you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:19

I want to give you some things to watch for in this conversation. First of all, let's talk about when to have this conversation. I mentioned earlier, it's important to not have it during a time period where you're going to get interrupted. So for some people, it makes sense to have it in the afternoon or towards the end of the day as things are wrapping up. For other people, it needs to be a right away thing. You'll want to assess your situation. And I would highly, highly, highly encourage you to get help from an expert in this if you plan to have this type of conversation. There will be things that you are not considering. Let me tell you a story of the first time I tried to have this conversation. Let's go into the story first. I got fired. Here's what I said. I said, "I don't think I'm the right person for the job. I don't think I should have taken it." And yes, I know that that sounds ridiculous. And I'm sure you'll do much better than that attempt I made when I was 23 years old. However, it doesn't change the fact that when we work with people, and they have these types of challenging and vulnerable discussions and conversations, what they usually come up on their own, like the conversation that they're usually coming up with on their own, it usually isn't the most helpful version that could be delivered to your boss, your co-workers, or anyone else that you actually want to strengthen the relationship with, as opposed to burn the bridge. So this is some pretty highly advanced level career maneuvering. And I really do suggest taking a partner on this. And, you know, obviously, this is something we do all the time for our clients. But if you don't want to partner with a career coach, I would definitely partner, or at a minimum, with a mentor and somebody who understands human dynamics, psychology, as well as can coach you through having this level of a conversation, because there's a lot of things to get right here. And it sounds really simple when I laid it out earlier. And it doesn't have to be a complicated conversation at all. But we want to consider all the factors before going into do so. If you need someone to help you think through how other people are going to view this and push you and find ways that you can truly be helpful to them and set them up for success, don't hesitate to contact our team, we can absolutely do that. But I want to share with you when these types of conversations are not appropriate. Particularly when you have a very desperate or toxic relationship with your boss. I have been involved in situations where we've been able to make that work but it usually is abnormal, and it usually requires a high degree of tenacity and finesse in order to make that type of situation work where you're having this conversation, you're getting support from your boss, but still have a desperate or toxic relationship. It's unusual to make that work, I'll say. Another situation would be when the standard in your organization is always, not sometimes, but always to send people out the door as soon as they mentioned leaving, there are a number of organizations and even industries where that is the case. It may not be the right situation to have this type of conversation. Or when you have a merger that's not finalized with what separation packages will be happening, and you haven't already gotten written specific agreements for those separation packages. Although this can actually be... this situation can be a unique opportunity on its own, we've been able to help people speed up those types of packages in a variety of different ways or negotiate those packages as the merger is happening. It's not always possible, but sometimes it is. Okay. I want to share that we've tried this strategy with our clients. The strategy where I'm describing getting support from your boss, and your team and helping them be successful. So far, we've never had it not work, just flat out not work. It doesn't mean there aren't challenges that pop up along the way. It doesn't mean everything goes perfectly. But I should know that that's because many of these clients tend to be higher than average with relationship skills. So there's an element of self-assessment that needs to take place first– are you a people person? Do you care about people before you're employing this strategy in your desire to leave? Also, you really can't employ this strategy from a place of desperation. Instead, I really encourage you to only consider this if you really legitimately care and want to take care of the other people, that's when it's highly appropriate. And when you have a great relationship with the people who are around you, that's a perfect time to be able to have this type of discussion, even though it might be scary to do so. Here's what actions you can take now. If you're ready to leave in the next six months, I would suggest working with someone to build your plan to have that conversation with your boss, including a script, rehearsing, and planning for contingencies or things that could go wrong in the conversation. This could be a friend who's really good at this stuff, or certainly of course a career coach on our team. I want you to also be prepared for the mental blocks that come along with the strategy. This brings out everything, it brings out everything about the closet, all the skeletons, and everything. It can be a really scary conversation even if you're in an amazing situation and habit. But I want you to know that setting your team, your organization, your co-workers, or clients, whoever it is up for success when you leave is the best possible solution for everyone involved. It really is. You never know what your career future holds, and you might cross paths with them in the future. Let me know what you think of this episode, we may consider doing more like this style. Tell me what worked for you, what didn't work, and what you'd like to know more about. How do you do that? It's easy. Drop me an email– Scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:42

Hey, if you've been listening to our episodes here at Happen to Your Career and you want to make an intentional career change to much more meaningful work, and have it neatly laid out into an organized framework, well, guess what? We actually have that available for you in the Happen to Your Career book. It's available on Amazon, Audible, anywhere else where you get your books. You'll learn about the five hidden obstacles stopping your career change, how to figure out what truly makes you happy with your career, and what brings you more happy more often, and more importantly, how to transition to a much more fulfilling career and life. You can find the book on Amazon, Audible, anywhere where books are sold. By the way, people are particularly loving the audiobook, which you can access right now in seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:30

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up for you next week, right here on Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 3 21:36

I didn't know all the things that I could do and trying to figure out what that would be was a real struggle for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:46

If you are looking for work that truly fits you, you might already know we usually recommend against job boards. Why? Well, creating your ideal role normally requires a lot of customization to fit your needs. And you're not likely to find that on job boards. But what if you could make job boards work for you? What would that look like? What if you could find a role that seems like it was already custom-made for you, stand out amongst hundreds, if not thousands of applicants, and then get a job offer after just one interview?

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:20

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Michal Balass 00:01

I got to that point, and I didn't want to give it up. But the thing of it is, is that I didn't want that.

Introduction 00:15

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:40

If you've ever hung on to something for way, way longer than you should, this episode is for you. Whether it's a job or a relationship, maybe it's something completely different. But all of them can leave you feeling completely drained. So the question becomes, "How can you motivate yourself to make the necessary change and then make sure that you move on to the first sign of trouble the next time? How can you learn from it?"

Michal Balass 01:07

I took the job. I didn't really think twice, because this is what my life graduate work was leading up to. Now looking back at it, I never really asked myself that questions of whether I wanted to do this.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:21

That's Michal Balass. Michal was working at a university in a good, but definitely not a great job, that really wasn't right for her. And since it was a good job, she knew things could be much worse. So she, of course, did what many people do and held on to the role way, way too long. Unsurprisingly, she began to burn out. Finally, when she hit her breaking point, as he calls it, she decided it was enough. And she absolutely had to make a change. This familiar story might relate to you or people that you know. But she shares really great insight on why she feels like she held onto that job, and how this career change completely shifted how she thinks about success. But I'm gonna let her tell you all about it. Here she is. She first goes back to where her career first began.

Michal Balass 02:16

I graduated with my PhD in 2011. But I left graduate school a year before I defended the big dissertation. And it's pretty typical when students get towards the end of their graduate career is that if they land a job that they leave and they come back and finish up those loose ends. And I got my first position, which was a temporary position at a college in upstate New York. And it was really a big deal because this was a couple of years after the recession. And universities were not hiring. And so I thought that, and I did very, very big. So I was in that position for two years, I went back, I defended my doctorate. And then quickly after that, I knew that my position was temporary, that I needed to find something more permanent. And so I went on the job market as academics say, and I had several interviews, but I got one offer. And this was what we call a tenure-line job academic job, which is, again, a huge deal because there's not a lot of those out there. And that job is in Maryland. And I was so enthusiastic, and I took the job. I didn't really think twice, because this is what my life graduate work was leading up to. Now looking back at it, I never really asked myself the questions of whether I wanted to do this. Right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:50

Interesting. Yeah. Which is normal, right? Many of us don't do that.

Michal Balass 03:55

Yeah. And I want to say that the job that I had up to two months ago with that university was great, but it wasn't the right fit for me. And I think I knew that the first maybe month when I started. But I talked myself out of it. I said, "Well, you know, it's just a new job, and this is what you've been working for." And the troubling thing about that is when you don't fit the role, you don't fit the job culture, you get burned out very easily and very quickly. And that's what happened. But I'm an ambitious person and I held on a lot longer than I should have. And what the breaking point was is that I had my son two years ago, and I didn't want to go back to work. And a lot of people told me, "Well because you just had a baby and you want to stay home." I didn't want to stay home. I was happy to sort of transition back into work. I just didn't want to go back to that role. And that what sparked the career transition. And I'm smiling, as I'm saying this, but as I was going through it, I was very nervous. I was very upset all the time. I didn't know what was next. I had a lot of fear in being able to leave.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:27

I want to come back to that fear here in just a second. But before that, I want to ask you about something that you said just a moment ago, which was that you felt like you hung on a lot longer than you should. And I'm curious, you know since you've recently been through this journey, through the cycle, why do you think ambitious and high-performing people do hang on so much longer? Because I hear that again, and again. So why do you think that is?

Michal Balass 05:55

I think because you're sort of working towards this goal. And in that process, what gets you through is that you want to achieve this goal. And that goal for me in graduate school was to get this tenure-line job. And what it means to get tenure in academia, it means that you work really, really hard a lot of hours for the first five years, then there's a committee of people who review all of your work. And if you get tenure, that means that you are permanent, you can't be fired, and you get a lot more flexibility and autonomy. And this is what as academics, a lot of academics works towards. So I got to that point and I didn't want to give it up. But the thing of it is, is that I didn't want that. I worked towards it but I didn't want it. But I said to myself, "Well, I worked so hard, right?" It's sort of like this sunk cost effect– you've invested so much time and to step away from it makes you feel like you wasted your time. And I don't think I wasted my time at all. There's a lot of value in a graduate education, there's a lot of value in any role that you take on. I think now I'm so much smarter to know that if something doesn't fit, or whatever your gut is telling you, you're smart enough to know that, "Hey, you know, I got here, and this is great. But I'm going to move on." So I think this is a pretty common phenomenon among people who are very ambitious. You've invested so much time. And you get to that point, and you look around and you're like, "Well, this is not really quite what I wanted. But I work so hard for it. Why would I give it up?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:36

Yeah. That's so interesting, though, that this really is something that can take a hold of so many of us, especially when we do work so hard for. I mean, you're a professor of psychology and very familiar with sunk costs and how that impacts your emotions toward different things. And I think that's proof positive that it's difficult to be able to see yourself and recognize that you're in it when you're in it to some degree. So I'm curious, then, fast forward a little bit, you ended up having a baby. And then all these people around you are telling you, well, why you were experiencing what you were experiencing. And it sounded like that really wasn't the case, because you did want to go back to work. And what happened from there? What else caused you to begin to look at this in a different way?

Michal Balass 08:29

So you might be able to relate to this, Scott. When you become a parent, your time becomes very, very different, right? And your priorities change. And one of the things that came about from not fitting in with the role that I was in is that I was frustrated and angry, and I wasn't enjoying my family life. And I didn't want to spend my time that I was away from my son doing something that wasn't fulfilling to me. So the idea in my mind was, well, I'm sending my son to this wonderful daycare, and he's getting a lot out of it. But that time that I'm away from him should be something that was very fulfilling to me. And so that sparked the process. And I was Googling career advice on Google. And I came across your podcast, and I started listening to it on my commute home. So it was after maybe one or two episodes that I listened to. I went on your website, and I filled out a request for coaching and I didn't know what to expect. And you so kindly emailed me back so quickly, and you said that you were happy to have a chat. And I was so nervous because in my mind, I was talking to this career change God, and I didn't know where I was going to go. And we talked about some options. And one of the best things that I've think that has happened to me in the past couple years, besides having my son, of course, was being introduced to Lisa Lewis. She is a wonderful, wonderful coach. And from there, it just sort of spiraled on. We had these really wonderful conversations, and she made me think about things that I never thought before. And one of the first questions she asked me to think about is, what are the things that are really true of me. And when I started generating that list, I sort of understood that there were a lot more sides to me than just this job. And that job is not what is supposed to identify me unless I wanted to. And that's how the process started.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:51

Let me ask you about that. Because I think that's another common theme that we see all the time. Even if we don't intentionally, and I know that has been true for me and I've heard the same thing from many of our clients and students, but even if we don't intend to, a lot of times, unintentionally, I think we find after the fact that we have allowed our career to be our identification, for lack of a better phrase. So I'm curious for you, as you started to untangle that, what was that process like for you? And then what did you start to realize instead?

Michal Balass 11:29

Well, that process was very hard. And I think I'm still going through it, especially because from day one when I started graduate school, I was groomed to be a professor. And so it became really entangled in my identity. And what really helped was to look for opportunities that were fulfilling that I could still identify with. And do I feel a little bit sad sometimes that I'm not a professor? Yes, but I don't think it's because of anything else besides the fact that it's this transition. And, you know, it's something from my past. But I, by no means, think that or regretted in any kind of way. It's just, I'm doing the same kind of work, just with a different title and a lot more flexibility. And doing, I think 90% of my job is doing things that I like, which is tremendous, right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:40

It's tremendous. Most people barely have 10 or 15% of their job that they really, truly enjoy. So especially if it is lining up so clearly with other things that you value, too, like that flexibility you're talking about, and like some of the other elements. So that's super interesting. Now, I know that you really, during this time, you actually started doing photography, as well as a more intentional piece of your life. So how did that come about? Because I know that was tangled up someplace here in the process.

Michal Balass 13:17

Yeah. So I have a lot of hobbies. I used to be a ballerina with a small ballet company in upstate New York, I did that for a couple of years. And that always had these other interests. And what I've noticed is when I stopped engaging in those interests, there's something going on in my life that is not going quite right. And I was always taking photos. And once I started my tenure-line job, I stopped doing that. And I want to backtrack a second and say that, in this process of transitioning out of this traditional academic role that I had, I actually took an unpaid sabbatical. So my supervisor at that time, was very, very supportive. I spoke with him, I said that I needed a little bit of time, and they allowed me to take an unpaid leave from my position.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:18

And this was a difficult decision for you if I remember correctly. Very difficult, right?

Michal Balass 14:23

Very, very difficult.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:24

What prompted you to decide to do that?

Michal Balass 14:28

The thought of... this is gonna sound really extreme. The thought of going back and teaching again just made me so miserable that I preferred to just struggle financially and not do it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:42

How long? And I am very familiar with that. I have been in that same place where that thought in some ways, and I think I took, at the time it's been 12 years or whatever it's been, but at the time, it was probably a less healthy approach because I think for me, it was less intentional than what I know that you did. Because you ended up talking with your husband and planning out and figuring out how could we do this, what would it look like. Mine was more, how do I do anything else, but this. I was running from which is exactly what we tell people not to do. And so I would love to ask you a little bit about what took place between the time where you started thinking about this, and you're like, "I have to do something else. And this thought is making me miserable. Just the thought of it is making me miserable, let alone the actuality." And what took place in between there and then taking a sabbatical?

Michal Balass 15:39

Yeah, absolutely. And I want to mention, I will tie this back to the photography eventually. So what happened was, is that I had my maternity leave, I went back to work. And a couple months later, the semester started, and I went back to teaching and that semester was okay, I just really slowed down these tests that I used to do really quickly felt so burdensome to me, I just wasn't as productive as I used to be, because I just didn't really want to do it. When I came back after winter break, that's when things really started to break down, I found it was really hard for me to get up in the mornings, I didn't want to go to work. And this was really unfair to the students that I was teaching because they weren't getting a professor that was there, you know, 1,000%. And that semester ended. And I had a little bit of time to think during the summer. And as time was inching closer and closer to going back in the fall, I just had this really nagging feeling that I just I can't do this. So my husband and I had some very tough conversations about what it would mean for me not to work for a few months and just take a break and step away. And there wasn't any dad that we were going to do whatever it took for me to feel better. And so we sort of planned ahead for this a little bit and put money away for me to be not working for about four or five months. And I went and spoke with my supervisor. And I explained that I didn't give too much detail that I was feeling burned out and I wanted some time. But at that point, I didn't quit. What happened was, so I started my unpaid sabbatical in August. And then by September, I had to let them know what classes that I will be teaching starting in the next semester. And I looked at that email, and I said, "I'm not going back."

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:52

This is not happening.

Michal Balass 17:54

Yeah. And so I spoke with him. And I explained to him the situation. Again, he was very, very supportive. And it ended there. And so I said that come January 1st, I will be resigning from my position. And once I did that, I felt this burden, and this heaviness lifted off of me. But I was still very emotionally burnt out. So I wasn't working. And I was supposed to be looking for another job. And the financial pressure was always there in the back of my mind. But I wasn't able to do anything. I was working with Lisa for a good few months. And I knew what I was supposed to do. And she trained me very well. I just couldn't do it. And so I would wake up in the mornings with my son, I would take him to, I would drop him off at his preschool, I would come home. And sometimes I will honestly admit this, I would sit on the couch and all I could do is just watch TV. And in my mind, I thought that I did that for a longer time than it actually did. I think it was maybe a period of three weeks. And one day I woke up in the morning and I just felt better. I don't know what made it better. And I started picking up my camera and I started photographing random things and posting them on Facebook. And then I asked if anybody would be willing to model for me for my portfolio because I just wanted to do it for fun. I didn't think of it in any other way. And I got a lot of volunteers and I went out there and I started photography. And people were asking for me to photograph them. And so I started this little business on the side. And I felt alive again that I was doing something that I was very passionate about. And that made me feel so much better that I think it was late October that I started applying to jobs and positions and networking. And once I was actually ready for that, the process went very, very quickly. So I think I mentioned this to you before that, in that span of time, I applied to five or six jobs, and every job I got at least a phone interview and an in-person interview. And it was because I was hyper-focused, I knew what was going on, I was sending thank you notes, I was having phone calls. And I don't know that I would have been able to do that while still working the other job. It was just taking up so much mental and emotional energy that for me, and I know that you don't recommend this to a lot of your clients, quitting was the best thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:42

It's not right for everybody. And, you know, we get that question many, many times. In fact, we did a full episode on how to know whether or not you should quit. But yeah, it is a very, very particular thing that does not, it's not always the same answer for everybody. And it depends whether or not it's going to rewrite for you. Because actually, some of the pressures that you just called out, can influence whether or not it's a great decision. And here's the reality that I've come to terms with is that it's going to be difficult no matter what. A lot of times we get into the situation, and we think, "Well, if only I had more time. And if only I didn't have this job in the way, and everything like that, then it would be okay." But the reality is, one way or another, it's still going to be challenging. And it sounds like that was the case for you, because you had the financial pressures on your mind, you were still, in some ways, it sounds like recovering from the burnout pieces. And I think that's one of the important things that we've observed that people must have. When they get to that point of burnout, they must get some kind of time away. And then after that, like some kind of distance, sometimes it's not always time, sometimes it's space, but some kind of distance in some way, in order to remove themselves from the real world of their situation and what it's been in the past. And then how they have to get momentum again. It seems like you were able to do that through photography, where you felt alive again. So I'm curious, as you kind of went through that cycle, what did you think the big pieces and big takeaways for you that really, really helped you move through that? Because everybody goes through that in some ways or another.

Michal Balass 22:28

Yeah. I think being patient with yourself. The more that I pushed myself, and the more that I, in my own mind, beat myself down that I shouldn't be doing this and I should be doing that and I shouldn't be pushing harder, the more resistance I gave to myself, the more it took me away from the process. And the more I had this aversion to figuring out my future. And the moment that I stopped, and I sort of let my mind engage in something else, that calmed me down. And those fears were still in the back of my mind, the financial fear that "Oh my goodness, I'm never going to be employed again, what am I going to do? How much longer can we do this just on my husband's salary?" And I've heard this before. And once you sort of give yourself some space to just calm down, you become more solution-focused, and you can start to see a lot more clearly than when you're hyper-focused and pushing and resisting where it doesn't get you anywhere.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:37

That's one of the things that we find that we are doing a lot of times with folks that we work with is helping them create that type of space. And it's not an easy, it's almost never an easy thing to do. But for you, now that you have done that for yourself, what do you think helped the most to create some of that space? I heard you say already that I just needed to stop being so hard on myself in some ways, but what else do you think actually made the difference for you there? At least from what you can reflect upon now.

Michal Balass 24:18

Sure. So one is giving myself space. Two was in those days where I wasn't looking for a job but doing something to occupy my time it was photography, it was engaging in these day-to-day activities that was sort of preoccupied my mind. So I wasn't thinking about the job process itself. And then I said to myself that I was going to have conversations with people about what they do, and it wasn't about finding a job. I was just interested in somebody talking to me about what they do. So maybe that would spark inspiration for me. And I had some many networking conversations and when I came at it in that perspective where I was just going to talk and I wasn't going to ask for anything else, all of a sudden having these, I don't want to call them networking conversations, I don't know what to call them. But I would, you know, contact somebody on LinkedIn and say, "Hey, I'm really interested in what you're doing. I would love to hear more." And they would be really eager to speak with me. And that sort of sparked my own journey to say, you know, one of the things that was stopping me from moving on is that I didn't want to do anything academic, right? So I just came from academia. And I had this like aversion and I wasn't going to go back. Surprisingly enough, I'm still in academia, I still love academia. And I needed to acknowledge that. And I just needed to have conversations with people who are doing academically aligned careers, which there are a lot of people who are doing it. I just restricted myself from it, because I couldn't think beyond my current situation. And once I stepped away from it, it became pretty easy to do that. Yeah. And once I did that, things progressed very fast. I think.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:18

That is so interesting. And we see that time and again, too. And I'm fascinated by the psychology elements of exactly that, where you come out of something and then you're like, I need to get the heck away from that. And you're sort of attributing that to be the problem when that isn't necessarily the problem. Sometimes it's something completely different. And then, you know, many times people end up in a variation, not always, but like in your case, you ended up in still academia, but in a completely different way, in a way that was much more in alignment with what you wanted and needed. And first of all, that is amazing. Because I think that a lot of people don't really realize what that takes to be able to do the work in order to get yourself the time and space and everything and all the conversations and all the things that have to happen in order to be able to get to that point and have that learning for yourself. But second of all, I would ask, what was the hardest part for you out of this whole thing? Or what were some of the most difficult challenges for you out of this whole journey, or piece of the journey?

Michal Balass 27:32

Oh my. Several things. As I mentioned before, letting go of the word Professor being a part of my career identity. And once I let that go, that released me a little bit from depression. The other hard part was the financial aspect of it. And I want to echo what you said before is that it's a dangerous thing to do, right? And it's not for everyone. And in my position, there wasn't any other way to engineer it. So before deciding to quit your job, I would recommend to talk with your supervisor, whoever is in a position to be a mentor to you and see what other things could be worked out. I think that's very important. In my situation, there wasn't anything else that could have been worked out. And it's really important for me to say, because I wouldn't wish that financial pressure and fear on anybody, especially if you have a young child, and you're trying to support a family. So I think that's really important. So in addition to this identity crisis, and this financial aspect, and the pressure of like having to do something right now, I mean, those were two big things about it. And I have to own this, that I was the one standing in my own way. You know, it wasn't that there's not a lot of opportunities out there. It was just me letting go and not trying to find the perfect next step. And I think that's really important. And that's the third aspect of this that was really, really hard. Like when I was looking for something the next step, I said, "I need to do something that is perfect and is going to fulfill X, Y, and Z." And that's really hard to do. And so you want to step into the process– A; being very patient with yourself, being very kind to yourself, and thinking about just improving from where you came from, to where you're going to go and make sure that that next step is gonna allow you the opportunities to grow. One of the most fantastic things that I love about my supervisor now is that when I interviewed him, he said that he doesn't expect me to stay there forever. He wants to create opportunities for me to grow. And the highest compliment to him would be if I stay in this role for a while, and then I move on to something else. And when he said that, I said, "Yes", this is what the process is about. It's doing something that fits your life in that mom

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:37

That is amazing advice. And I think, also, going back to what you said that you were the one standing in your own way, I think we've had exactly zero people that we've interacted with where the biggest challenges were something that was external. I have my personal experiences, then that literally 100% of the time, the biggest challenges are us standing in our own way, which is not what I think many of us go into this thinking. So that is amazing for you– One, acknowledging that. And then two, doing something about it. And then the not trying to find the perfect next step. I think that is so valuable. It's another type of pressure, like you were talking about the pressure earlier, right? That is just another type of pressure that we have a tendency to put on ourselves. And then it causes us not to be able to find any step.

Michal Balass 31:36

Right. Yeah, absolutely. And I think the difference between when I accepted the position that I'm in now, and the one that I accepted when I moved to Maryland was that I accepted my other academic job as I started it, I was going to get tenure, and I was going to retire from that institution. And I accepted this position knowing that I'm going to do this for a while, I don't know how long, I'm enjoying it thoroughly as we speak. And at some point, I'm probably going to grow into something else. And just that mind frame that different framing is so powerful, right? It's not something that I've ever started with any other job knowing that I may need to move into something else. And that's very powerful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:25

Well, in some ways, and I love what you're talking about. In some ways, it is really setting us up for different types of unneeded, I hesitate to use the word failure, because I think really failure is actually good in a lot of different ways. And we try and engineer failure into a lot of different things that we do. So we can have fast learnings. But it really is setting yourself up for whatever the opposite of success would be, and the opposite of what most people actually want. If we're going into it, the way that you did and I did many years ago too were thinking that, "Hey, this is the end." Like, because you're leaving the job, you're leaving all jobs one way or another. There is, whether you leave or whether they decide you leave, or whether I don't know, like something's going to happen, eventually, somewhere something in life is going to come up. And so it is really an impossible thing to find that perfect place where you're going to stay forever. And yeah. My last question to you. And you've given so much great advice so far. What else, aside from not trying to find the perfect next step, and getting out of your own way to some degree, what else after having gone through this would you give as advice to people who are in that place back where you were, way back where they might be thinking about the role, and be like, "I don't know how much longer I can do this. And I'm trying to figure out what would be right for me", but what advice would you give them if they're back there to be able to really figure this out and let them know what's coming?

Michal Balass 34:11

Yes, I would say first of all, and I said this before, be kind to yourself, be patient to yourself, and that things do always work out. That's one. The other thing I would recommend is to keep on having conversations. Don't have conversations because you're looking for another job, have conversations with people who are doing things that are interesting because you're interested in it. And that's going to open a whole world to you that you don't know about because you're not having conversations. And I want to say that I'm a very introverted person. When I walk into a party, I'm not the center of it and never was. But I can have these conversations now and I am still connecting and, you know, even now where I'm very happy with my current position, and I'm not looking to do anything necessarily in terms of leaving or anything of that nature, I'm still having conversations. I'm having conversations with other people at universities. I'm having conversations with people outside of my department learning about interesting things, because I don't know what circumstance is going to change, which is going to spark another move or another desire for a career change. And I think that's really important. And the important part of having conversations is about that it enlightens you about the possibilities. And when you hear about somebody who's doing something that is so fantastically interesting to you, I don't know, for me, it's very inspiring, and it keeps me going, it keeps me growing as a professional.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:02

Hey, if you love this story where we talk through and walk you through step by step how someone got to more meaningful work, then you'll absolutely love our audiobook– Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. I even got to narrate it, which was so fun. And something that I really enjoyed doing and will definitely do for future books as well. But it also contains firsthand accounts from career changers on how they made the move to more meaningful work, just like we include on the podcast here. And actually, it's been called the best audiobook experience ever by some reviewers. You can find those reviews, and the book itself on Audible, Amazon, or any other place where books are sold. Seriously, just pause this right now and go over to Amazon or Audible or wherever you want and download it. You can be reading it and started on your career change in literally seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:57

Now here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week right here on Happen To Your Career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:01

When you think about leaving your current company, they often fall into one of two categories. Movie-worthy visions, lighting the office on fire while flipping the bird on the way out the door. Well, the building slowly crumbles behind you. Or the option number two, being worried that your boss and all the people you care about are going to feel as though you flip them the bird and burn down the building, leaving everyone in the lurch while you go on to take care of your own life. But what if there were a completely different way? What if you could have your boss help you find a new role? What if your boss and co-workers supported your efforts to make a change while simultaneously you worked to set everyone up for success? That way when you left, they know that they're well taken care of. Let's put this another way. What if you didn't have to worry about burning bridges at all? And what if you have the support of the people that you work with to cross over your new bridge? That bridge still remains and everybody wins.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:03

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:01

What's the best way to meet new people, quickly test new careers, and pave the way for creating your very own role, maybe custom fit to you even? Most people think that it must be some amazing tactic, but it's not.

Introduction 00:20

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:45

On the Happen To Your Career podcast number 537, called Rethinking Informational Interviews: Stop Doing Them & Start Test Driving Conversations, there on that episode we broke down quite a bit of the step-by-step process of test driving conversations. And we talked about what are the differences but particularly the subtle differences between test-driving conversations, as well as informational interviews, and why those subtle differences actually make test-driving conversations far more effective. Here's what we didn't do in that episode, though. We didn't go through and give you an in-depth, real example with a real person or set of people. Today, we're going to show you exactly how test-driving conversations work with a real person. And that's where, if you go way back to Episode 299, Laura Morrison comes in.

Laura Morrison 01:43

I've always been fascinated with behavioral science. And I'd like to have many nights with friends having a couple of beers being like, "What's your Myers Briggs score?" I just like wanted to talk about that stuff. And I think it's because I think it's really interesting to understand what makes people do what they do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:01

That's Laura. And if you don't remember from her story way back in the early days, Episode 299, she was a senior level, she was working in a senior-level role in sustainability. And at that time, just had her first child. Even though she had no desire to stay at home with kids beyond her maternity leave, it was still really difficult to go back. Difficult because when she finally went back, she realized it was no longer challenging. It was actually pretty boring. And to make matters worse, she led a team of eight people who were actually really excited and really passionate about their work. Okay, normally, this is actually a good thing. But for her, it felt like she had to fake this excitement. And as you can imagine, since she was leaving a new kiddo at home every day, this wasn't something that she was into. And it became painful, rather quickly. So you can go back, you can listen to episode 299. We'll link this episode, in particular, in the show notes. There's quite a bit of her eight month journey that couldn't fit into the podcast. So it was years later, I sat down with Laura to break down step by step what had happened. How on earth did she get this opportunity with an organization that just absolutely fit her ideal career profile, which if you recall, that's usually the first step in the process after setting yourself up to have success, what we call a plan for inevitable success, and then defining a profile of your ideal career. And this was exactly the stage that Laura was at, where she had completed a version of her ideal career profile right before she started test-driving conversations. Here's a little bit about what she knew.

Laura Morrison 03:45

And I've always had a little bit of a natural instinct of like, this person's being a jerk, but it's probably just because of this XYZ insecurity, right? Like, I usually could read people's behavior a little deeper than just what you could see on the surface. So I didn't know what I wanted to do. But I knew the type of company I wanted to work for. So the first way I actually found and heard of the Predictive Index was I just started searching best places to work lists in Boston because at the time being local was very important. And I would read the name, and then I'd Google them and be like, "Okay, law firm, not interested." Right? Whatever. And T is pretty far down in the alphabet and some of these lists. So it took me a while to get there. But that's how I found The Predictive Index. Because of some of the resources you helped me with in terms of like finding people on LinkedIn, I was able to find a friend of mine, who I had met at what we called the worst moms group ever, and became friends because of it. It's a funny way to make a friend, like, we agree this was terrible.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:53

So it turns out Laura's new friend from the worst mom's group ever ended up knowing somebody already that worked at The Predictive Index, this organization that she was really interested in at the time, and appeared to line up with her ideal career profile. Okay, so she asked that person to introduce her.

Laura Morrison 05:13

At the time, he was the head of marketing at The Predictive Index. He now has a fancier higher title that I can't remember. And so she introduced me, you know, more than willing to talk. We talked for like the 15 minutes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:27

Laura mentions 15 minutes because we often recommend asking for 15 minutes in order to make a test drive conversation happen. Now, the reason behind that is pretty simple, but also psychological. You want to ask for something that people can say 'yes' to, not something that is difficult to say yes to, most people can find 15 minutes. But when you're asking for an open-ended amount of time, or an hour, or even a half an hour or even 20 minutes, sometimes, it becomes more difficult to be able to say yes to that. But here's the interesting part. When you get there, and your 15 minutes passes, and you're like, "Hey, you know what, I want to be respectful of your time." Often, many people will say, "Yeah, I can find more time."

Laura Morrison 06:09

So I learned a little bit about him by looking on LinkedIn, I had a 15-minute call with him. And mentioned, I was curious about product marketing, and UX research, and product management because those were the things I was interested in at the time. One of the things that I did is I did not express that I was interested at working there for as long as humanly possible.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:31

The reason why Laura mentions this here is because we often encourage people as they're going through experiments to keep an open mind because what you might find is that you don't actually really want to work at the organization or this particular type of role. And it was different for Laura, she validated that it actually was a good fit for her. But that's not always the case. So be aware. Okay, back to Laura's story.

Laura Morrison 06:57

First of all, I researched them so I could make a personal connection, like, "Oh, I hear you like music. Tell me about that." But then also, I have two or three awesome questions that I can never remember off the top of my head but are written in those documents.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:10

One of Laura's favorite questions is, "What do you love about working in this role, or this company, or this section of the organization?" Her other questions were more personalized or individualized. Also, I want you to remember that this is a career experiment. So here's a fun way that Laura would look at the data visually afterward, and assess what actually worked, where are the areas where she wanted to keep going forward, and where didn't she.

Laura Morrison 07:41

But then I also like what highlights in green are some colors. If they said things that I was excited about, I was like, "Ooh, that sounds like something I'd like I put it in green." And if it wasn't, I was like, "Oh, that sounds terrible. I put it in red." And so like, I would talk to UX researchers and realize there was so much red, like that one green thing I was curious about probably wasn't enough. And it's not like I'm not detail-oriented, at least based on my behavioral pattern. I'm like, trained into it through engineering. So it's not like I ever printed them all and compared them. But it was like a good gauge for me. Okay, this is why I'm excited about product management. I've talked to four product managers and keep highlighting things in green.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:21

So one of the things that you need to realize is that Laura was going through and even though she was really excited about this organization, The Predictive Index, she was also investigating other organizations and other roles and opportunities over a period of months. And during those conversations, during those interactions, she was having a lot of areas of red, but also a lot of areas of green for The Predictive Index and the conversation she was having there. And this was further reinforced as she continued to investigate and continue to interact with people in the organization.

Laura Morrison 08:56

One of the things before the interview, I don't like suits at all. I'm a pretty casual person. And I was like, I don't want to work at a place... And this was a while ago, this was four years ago, it's a little different now. I feel like no one wears a suit anymore, because everyone's in their pajamas. But so I'm like, okay, I'm going to wear something that I'm comfortable in like Lisa help with this too. And I'm gonna go in there and I'm going to be myself and not pretend to be anyone else and see what happens. And I think the morning or the night before, I was like, "Ryan", my husband, "there's a ping pong table in that office, and I'm going to see it and that's why I'm gonna want to work there." He's like, "How do you know that?" Because he's trying to get me to wear a suit, right? He's a banker. He's very formal. "Very sure you're comfortable wearing this to an interview?" I was like, "Yep, I'm comfortable. I guarantee there's a ping pong table in their office." And like, the first thing I do is I walk in and I see the ping pong table. That's good, right? I read the culture right. And then in our part of the interview, he whiteboard it for 30 minutes, didn't ask me a single question. And then another Engineer came in the room and started asking me all these questions about product management because he didn't like read the memo that I didn't know anything about software product niche. And he kept asking me all these questions. It's like, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. What I do know is bla bla bla. And I just, I didn't try to be something other than I was, I just was honest and curious. And it was fun. Like, I left that interview energized, which is not something I would normally say about an interview.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:27

Okay, so let's review for just a second here. Where Did Laura start out? Well, let's go back to step one. She started out in our Career Change Bootcamp program, which meant that step one was building a plan for when things get hard and identifying the people and things that she needed to make her career change successful. It's what we now call the plan for inevitable success. Step two was identifying a hypothesis where she spent several months creating a working draft of her ideal career profile. Step three was experimentation, where she specifically chose what we call test-driving conversations. That's what we're talking about right now, right? And during those conversations, she was reaching out to people in a variety of different ways, which we cover in different episodes. And we'll have links to some of those different ways and examples in the show notes. But finally, she observed that she was really excited about this one company, in particular, The Predictive Index, and had already been through many conversations. And the previously determined, prior to even uncovering The Predictive Index, that product management could be an area that she was excited about changing, too. So now, at this point, she had some validation that she was on to a role that could be right for her, as well as a company that could match up for her. That's when she started talking to the people at The Predictive Index And let's not gloss over the fact that she already now had relationships with them, after she had this series of those initial test drive conversations. And after that happened, after she had decided, "Yep, I want to work at The Predictive Index. How do I make that happen?" She went to them to discuss that she was interested and how it might be possible to work there because she was loving every interaction that she had. That's where they brought her into the interview process for a position that wasn't even posted at the time. And as you heard, those interviews that she had reinforced her experience with the company, and ultimately led to a pretty decent-sized race when she was worried initially about having to take a pay cut. And she ended up having to lead to this amazing opportunity. Now, when people listen to this, there's one thing that doesn't always seem obvious, doesn't always stand out. But it's really important for us to cover. It's that, to be able to get to this point where you actually have an opportunity in front of you, you actually have to give up initially, that you want it to lead to an opportunity at all. And you actually have to genuinely be curious when you are in the test-driving conversations. Test driving is for that purpose only. It's for test driving. It's for experimentation. It's for trying to find out if what you think you want is actually what you want. Nothing else.

Laura Morrison 13:27

I was trying not to be the person who was like, "Oh, my gosh, hire me." And I was trying not to sell myself essentially like I was trying to be curious and ask questions rather than me like you should hire me because of XYZ.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:41

It's only at this point in time where you've gone through, and much as Laura did, you've already validated that this is an organization that I want to work with. This is a role that I want to actually be in. I have some actual evidence, if you will, through my experiments, that what I am heading towards is actually right for me. Only at that point in time, can you then shift your focus and ask for what you want. Well, you might be wondering, "How did Laura do that here?" Well, in addition to this conversation that you've been hearing that I had with Laura, years after the fact when we pieced together all the events that had happened, I also went back and looked at our notes. And what I discovered is that there was a point along the way where Laura had interacted with us saying, "You know what, I really want to work for this organization. I proved that this is something that's going to be right for me. How do I shift into let's get this mode now that I know what I want?" And what we did is we helped her understand that you could go have a conversation. It's pretty simple conversation saying, "You know what, I love all the interactions that I've had here. I have really enjoyed how you've taken me through and helped me understand what it is that you do. Every interaction I've had has really strengthened my desire to work here. And now at this point, I'm sure that I want to work here. So I'd love to talk to you about how we could make this happen. How in the future I could work with The Predictive Index." And so that's what we came up with. And if we fast forward quite a bit, that eventually led to do a progression, and ultimately, the interview process that you heard earlier on in the episode, and then ultimately an opportunity. Here's Laura talking about how it moved from I'm exploring into now we're talking about this role.

Laura Morrison 15:38

Before we're talking about careers, like jobs, how a product works, how marketing works. And then that second conversation, I think, we start talking about the role. What is the role specifically are you interested in it? Here's what I want in this role, that sort of conversation.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:55

The last thing I should probably mention is that almost everyone, not everyone, but almost everyone we work with, when we have our clients have these types of conversations, they're uncomfortable, wildly uncomfortable at first. However, you build skill around it, and also comfort.

Laura Morrison 16:14

I mean, part of your whole process that I really appreciated was like forcing me to talk to all these people that I didn't know.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:20

And you might ask, well, why do we do that? Why is that a part of our process in one way or another? And the simple answer is, because if you really want to get to work that fits you, work that is meaningful, work that actually is a wonderful situation for you, then it doesn't just come through the normal channels, you have to identify what it is, find where it can happen in the world, and then essentially, engineer your way into those opportunities. And we find that the very easiest way to do that is through people, whether it's these types of conversations, whether it is building new relationships, whether it is, you know, experimenting, and having other people's help in making your career change and understanding what you want, and getting that feedback all along the way, it always comes from people. People are the shortest road to being able to making this type of work possible. And guess what? It can be great for them just as much as it's great for you. So last thing I want to leave you with is that here's a couple of things that you can do today to get started. If you're not quite ready to experiment, if you haven't already identified where it is that you're heading, then that's where you need to start. And that's okay. Now you know what comes later on in the process. So the way that you can do that is by starting with your plan for inevitable success, and so that you are prepared to make a career change. And then if you've already done that, you can go into your ideal career profile and begin to identify your destination– where it is that you want to go, your hypothesis so that then you can go into experimentation. However, if you're all ready for experimentation, then the first thing that you can do is begin identifying those organizations, or roles that could be a great fit for you. And then reach out to folks so that you can begin scheduling some of these conversations, test drive conversations, like what we talked about. And we've got plenty of links here in the show notes to help you with each piece of the process referring back to other episodes. Or, if you want help with this, by all means, don't hesitate to reach out and send me a note directly Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. And just put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And we'll be more than happy to be able to help you for whatever stage you're at. Otherwise, pick out some organizations, and let's get started.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:57

Hey, if you've been listening to our episodes here at Happen To Your Career and you want to make an intentional career change to much more meaningful work, and have it neatly laid out into an organized framework, well, guess what, we actually have that available for you in the Happen To Your Career book. It's available on Amazon, Audible anywhere else where you get your books. You'll learn about the five hidden obstacles, stopping your career change, how to figure out what would truly make you happy with your career. And what brings you more happy more often. And more importantly, how to transition to a much more fulfilling career and life. You can find the book on Amazon, Audible anywhere where books are sold, by the way, people are particularly loving the audio book, which you can access right now in second.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:45

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up for you next week right here on Happen To Your Career.

Michal Balass 19:52

I got to that point, and I didn't want to give it up. But the thing of it is, is that I didn't want that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:01

Okay, if you've ever hung on to something for way, way longer than you should, this episode is for you. Whether it's a job or a relationship, maybe it's something completely different. But all of them can leave you feeling completely drained. So the question becomes, "How can you motivate yourself to make the necessary change and then make sure that you move on to the first sign of trouble the next time? How can you learn from it?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:30

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:01

How can you accomplish goals that require having connections, but not be transactional? Well, it turns out there are easy ways to begin relationships that are genuine and feel natural to the other party. What's the key? Well, it turns out, stop forcing it. What if we only focused on what's easy for you?

Introduction 00:26

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:51

I remember in 2006 I had just recently been fired from a job that I did not particularly enjoy. It was pretty rough. I was pretty determined at that point to not have to go back to just another job where I could spend my days just, you know, waiting for the weekend, as I grinded it out in meetings that had really no meaning for me. So that's the point in time, some of you have heard this story before, but that's the point in time where I began learning everything I could about people who get well paid and also love their work. And that's where I started to call these people happy high achievers. One of the things that I observed right away as I was studying this group of happy high achievers, is that they often don't get jobs by traditional means. When you're outside, and you're looking in on their situation, it almost seems random, it's not though. It's not random. It's not even close to random. Also, it doesn't have anything to do with the Blind 200 plus times or, Indeed, or applying on LinkedIn. So the question becomes, well, how do they do it? How do they do it? How do they create these opportunities? How do they engineer these opportunities? How do these opportunities happen seemingly serendipitously? Well, we've talked about in the past about the importance of prioritizing what you want. And that's step one. Like you have to have an understanding of what you want, where you're going to make it easier to get there. So that of course, is where it starts. That said, though, happy high achievers realize that people hire other people, people make the opportunities for other people. It's not companies, it's not computers, yes, there can be computers and technology involved. But ultimately, it's people that end up making the final decisions or creating the final decisions. This means that a very large shortcut to find the work that fits you, or even getting positions created for you is through, you guessed it, relationships. Now, over the years, I have personally found that there is a huge, let's call it not a shortcut, but the fastest way to begin a relationship with someone else, it's not networking events, it's definitely not speed networking, even though that sounds like it should be. It's also not always anything to do with social media. Sometimes it can be. The continuous question that always pops up is, "How do I make connections? How do I build genuine relationships when I hate or despise traditional networking? I do not want to feel like I am schmoozing." Okay. Now, regardless of how you feel about schmoozing, or traditional networking, in this episode, we're going to cover and focus our efforts on how do we begin natural, great connections. I'm also going to give you five specific examples of ways to do this, along with some of my personal favorites. At the end of this episode, I'm going to give you a few actions that you can start with today, like right now. But first, let's go into where a few people struggle with this. Let's uncover some of these struggles so that we can begin to not just dissect them, but give you some solutions to those struggles.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:24

One of the things is reconciling this idea of, hey, I know that my goal is to get a job. I know my goal is to find my way to my ideal career, meaningful work, whatever it is that I have as a goal. And I also know that I don't want to schmooze. I don't want to be transactional. And what I found over the years is that many people have problems reconciling the two. How do I have this goal? How do I make progress on the goal? And how do I not create a transactional relationship with the other person? Okay. Now the hardest part of this entire concept is getting people to temporarily let go of the outcome here. Temporarily let go of the fact that my ultimate goal might be to get a job. We have to disconnect the goal from the interactions with the other person. That way I can focus solely and genuinely on the other person. Okay. Now, that's a really, really difficult concept. It sounds ridiculous in reality, but it is, "the struggle is real" we'll say. What you can do, you can have a goal, you can strategically seek to build relationships with those people who are likely to be able to help you or hire you. But don't do it only for that reason. Do it because you actually want connection with that other person. What you can't do, you can't let that goal block your ability to be genuinely interested in that other person. This is hard. Also, you can't fake interest. Humans have pre-installed BS meters that are hardwired into us for many years of evolution. Okay, for a second here, let's break down what goes into a great connection. Great connections when you start to think about what are those pieces and parts that must be there. We're not going to be able to uncover all of them. However, those also come from years of evolution. It's those situations where we feel some level of familiarity. That familiarity breeds trust. Well, what creates familiarity? Often a variety of things like rapport, like being able to find that common ground, like being able to have somebody who is genuinely interested or showing care in you. Okay, those are just a few of the things. But they're going to serve us well as we continue to talk about how to find a few ways that fit you to create genuine connections here. Okay, let's start with number one here. Number one, I call the path of least resistance. A path of least resistance, as it turns out, is introductions. It is something that is probably the easiest, shortest pathway, and maybe even the most powerful relationship-building hack that you already have in your toolbox. It allows you to connect with all kinds of people, simply because you already know some people now. Okay, I can hear some of you saying, "Well, I don't have that big of a network", or "I am trying to build relationships in another city." What we've learned over the last 10 years is, yes, that feels like a struggle. And sometimes that can add to the challenge. However, in most cases, you have a far bigger network already. And far bigger number of relationships in one way or another that are already there, already operating in existence from friends, family, co-workers, and other people that you interact with on a regular basis. Okay, let me show you how, though this idea of introductions can work. Let's break it down into an actual connection here. Let's say that you and I know each other well enough where I have some level of trust and respect for you. Now, let's say that you tell me, "Scott, I have someone you must meet. You have to meet this person." When you introduce me to someone else, a portion of that trust and credibility comes over from them. Think about it as it almost, like, comes over from them. Because it's a familiar source, and then passes on to the other person– the new person, the person you're getting introduced to, which creates instant trust and credibility. Now, there's a really great group of research about this, who Robert Cialdini had pulled together in a rather famous book called "Influence: The Science and Art of Persuasion". But even if you didn't know anything about this research, you've seen this happen already. Let's use an example here that you have either done yourself or you've seen happen. You invite your friends to dinner. One of your friends asked if they can bring another friend of theirs. Okay, so fast forward, dessert and a glass of wine. And a couple hours later, you have a brand new relationship, because now you have interacted with them. And let's assume at that point, you've liked them. And you have a measure of trust with this newest person who entered your life less than two hours before, right? Okay, think about what would happen if instead, that same person that you've never met before, shows up randomly and unannounced. Like they just show up at your door. Like, you know, they weren't invited by a friend. The friend didn't say, "Hey, can I bring this person along? " Instead, this person just shows randomly up at your door, and they're like, "Hey, so I heard you're having dinner here. Can I have dinner with you?" You're probably pretty likely to say ‘no’ because that's strange. It's out of context. And that request is coming from this person you've never met before. You might call the cops but you're probably not likely to say, "Yeah, come in and eat dinner." You're probably like, "Why are you here?" Okay, but instead, let's go with it for just a second. Let's say that you do actually choose to invite them in, because you're just that nice of a person, and you're already eating dinner anyway. So let's imagine that you do allow them to come in. You're probably pretty likely to be more skeptical, or the relationship and trust-building process is going to take longer, it's going to move slower. This means that when you are creating introductions, and you already have a relationship with one person, it speeds up the trust in relationship-building process with the person you're being introduced to. Okay, so now, let's use that analogy of, you know, being brought to dinner as a friend. This is what I want you to do. Your goal now is to create the time, place, and events that allow you to enter the life of someone else in a way that increases their chances of liking you, trusting you, and deeming you as credible. Okay, if you remember our happy high achievers that we talked about earlier, and out of my studies of what they do, you begin to realize there's lots of ways to leverage introductions to build relationships. And we've have talked a little tiny bit about this on the Happen To Your Career podcast from time to time, we teach a lot of these to our coaching clients. And there's some measure of this inside, some of our programs like Career Change Bootcamp. But for today, I want to really go in-depth into something that we don't have anyplace else quite in this way. And I want to focus specifically on introductions by email.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:48

Now, I'll say that you can adapt these email introductions to conversational introductions to social media introductions to, like, text message introductions, they can be adapted all over the place with a little bit of changing the verbiage for the situation. But let's assume that for a moment, you already have the basics in place for an introduction. And the basics are simple. Someone knows someone else that you want to know. That's it. There's probably this situation right now. And you just might not be totally aware of it. Most people, when they're faced with this situation, simply ask for an introduction. And that would be a mistake. Okay, let's talk about what does it do. I'm going to give you a formula for introduction, no, this is not a script, it is a formula that works rather well. It is not the only formula, but it's one of them that we use regularly that we've seen a lot of success with and tested over the years. Okay, I want to just read you an email here really quick. This email example goes like this. "Hey, Patricia. I'm spending the next couple of months researching companies trying to decide on my next career move. I was wondering if you would be willing to introduce me to Tim over at Google. I noticed that you are connected with him on LinkedIn. I'm really interested in product development and we'd love to ask him a few questions about what he does. If not, no worries. But if so, I would very much appreciate it. Just let me know, yes or no. And I will write up an example and something just to make it easier on you. Thanks so much." Okay, that's an example of a super simple email. But I want to break down, what is the formula that's at work here? We've already got someone that you already know. And the assumption here is that they know you and they like you. They have some measure of trust with you. What we're asking for is, we, or I should say, what we're doing here is we're sharing the context of the request, we're sharing the request itself, what's the "ask" here, expressing what the intention behind the ask here, which is incredibly important, we'll talk more about that in a second. We're giving them an out. So we're giving them a way to say 'no', which is important too, especially from a psychological aspect. That way, they don't feel like they're being backed into it, which increases the higher level of commitment. We're sharing in appreciation and gratitude. And we're making it so easy. It's something that they can say yes to. We're not asking for something that they feel like they can't do in one way or another. Okay, if we do those things, it significantly increases, not just their willingness to make the introduction for you, but also the chances that they're going to be able to say yes. You probably didn't realize there was that much buried in that super short message that I read to you. But I want to break it down again here. Okay, so the other thing I should tell you too, is I will make sure that we have a link to these messages inside of your show notes. You can go back and look at them where we break down and show in the message, what is the context. What is the request? What is the place where it makes it easy for them to say yes, etc. And then that way you can have a visual at the same time. All right, that message again here says, "Hey, Patricia. I'm spending the next couple of months researching companies trying to decide on my next career move." That is the context. I'm sharing the context in which I am contacting them. That way, they understand what to do with this message, and they're willing to read on. Alright, and then I go on to say, "I was wondering if you would be willing to introduce me to Tim over at Google." That's my request, that's my ask. I put it up front and center. I make it easy for them to understand. And then I go on to say, "I noticed that you are connected with him on LinkedIn, I'm really interested in product development and I would love to ask him a few questions about what he does." That's my intention. Because if they know Tim over at Google, what if they're worried that I'm going to try and sell Tim some stuff? Or what if they're worried that who knows? Like, if we don't fill in the blank for them, then our human brains are amazing and they will imagine something a reason to try and fill in the blank for them about why we're trying to contact Tim. So we just need to share our intention upfront, it makes it easier for them to be like, "Oh, yeah. Like, that's great idea. Yeah, you should totally do that. Yeah, I'd help." Okay. And then I go on to say, "If not, no worries!" That's four words, I tend to put exclamation points after it. But the important part is I'm giving them an out with those four words. And then from there go on to say, "But if so I would very much appreciate it." That's the appreciation part. That's the gratitude part. And then I make it easy for them to say yes, by saying, "Just let me know, yes or no. And I'll write up a short example, and send something over to make it easier on you." Another thing to point out, there's only 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 6 and a half sentences really in this. And then that's it. It's a really short email, as to the point it has all the pieces. And that's part of what makes it work. You'll notice that every line set of words is there intentionally. And then when you send this as an email, or you send it as a message on social or we could send it as a text. In a text, you could probably even reduce it further, like you could, you know, with even more shorthand and less sentences, if you need to do. Your next step after this is, after you have something like this drafted, all you have to do is press send. Like this is your easiest road, easiest road by a long shot to be able to create natural connections. But it doesn't stop there. The important part in order to finish creating, or I should say, engineering these natural connections, is what happens after that. What happens after I've asked for an introduction? Most people think that your work is done here like all I need to do is figure out a time to schedule with a new person, and voila, okay, instinct connection, but that would be inaccurate. And that's also why people have bad experiences with introductions. My work does not stop here. First, and maybe most importantly, if they say no, that's okay. That's okay. They might be connected to the other person, but maybe they don't know them really well. Or maybe they just aren't comfortable with the intro. Either way, that's okay. Move on. If you can try not to just get discouraged from that, just try to understand if you can, that that's their right and if they made that introduction, then it might not go that particularly well anyways. They have a reason in mind allowed them to decide what is best there. Don't force it, as we talked about earlier. But if they do say yes, that is amazing. That's perfect. This is the point where you get to, instead of waiting on them, you get to prepare an intro for them. Now, when I say prepare an intro for them, I'm talking about preparing the email or the text or however, they're going to introduce you to this other person. Write it for them. writing an introduction serves a couple of purposes. Number one, it makes it easier for them to send it even though they said they're gonna send it or maybe even some people are like, "Oh, no need to send over an example." Do it anyway. I promise you that people have great intentions to write their own. But a lot of times they may be busy and may not actually be able to follow through on it or something may happen in their lives where this priority gets dropped and it falls to a lower priority level. And in order to allow them to follow through, which is good for you and good for them, they feel good about themselves. And it helps you just write the introduction. It's also easier for most people to modify something that is there versus writing something from scratch. So if you're creating an introduction for them, they may only use one line of it. And that would be okay. But that actually makes it possible for them to send it because it reduces the cognitive load. And it reduces the steps that have to happen in order for them to get to the point where they actually send the introduction, email or text, or whatever for you. Okay, I want to give you an example of what it sounds like to respond back to them. And what an introduction email might sound like, as well. So I might send them a one-liner saying, "Here's that introduction for Brett and Sue. Thank you so much, again, for being willing to do this, feel free to use anything that I've written, or feel free to make changes or use nothing at all. Again, I really appreciate it. Let me know when you have made the intro so that I can respond." Okay, then I would paste below the email, as well, the actual introduction email, too. So let me read this off. This example says, "Hey, Brett and Sue. Hope you're both doing well up there in Massachusetts. It's 75 and sunny here in Dallas today. So I can't complain. I wanted to introduce you both to Anna. Anna and I met through a business coach that we both work with, she's currently interested in learning more about the roles available at your company located there in Boston. She's really engaged, she's really excited about your particular mission of helping companies realize the potential of their employees. And I suggested that she talk to both of you based on your levels of influence and your respective roles. I just sent Anna an idea of your product and I'll share the results as soon as I have those as well. All the best connecting, take care." Now, one thing I might change on this email, something that I use a lot, I will embed another line in there to really level up and say, "I would suggest that you connect in the next week via short phone call, or connect in person." And then that way I'm giving permission and instruction for what the other parties can do. This actually helps a lot. It helps a lot because it gives guidance as to what to do next. And having that guidance as to what to do next increases the chances that I'm going to be able to then meet and have that connection, begin that connection with the other person or in this case, people. Okay. Don't forget to ask them if it's an email to CC you on the intro, and then that way you can respond and then you can just take it from there. After they've sent the introduction, you're off to the races, get a call scheduled with the person or a time set up to meet. One of the things that we'll talk about and have mentioned in future episodes is, it's a whole art form to be able to schedule in ways that reduce the cognitive load required. But that's another episode for another day. Work to schedule the call with the person, get a time set up, you've probably guessed that there was even more ways that you can make this process more valuable. We're going to come back at the end. And we'll talk more about that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:17

But let's go into number two. Idea number two for how you can connect with other people. This is called the conference goer. Here's an example. One of our clients, we're gonna call her Jennifer. She was really excited about a conference, she was heading to this conference that she was attending. And she really wanted to meet with one of the panel speakers. She had been following her work for a while. So here's what she did to create that initial connection. She initially had interacted with the speaker on social media just by responding to some of her comments in various different places and then sent an email beforehand. So later on wasn't out of the blue when she emailed the panel speaker again and said, "I'm really looking forward to your panel discussion. I'll be in the front row wearing an orange jacket. I'm really excited to meet you afterwards." Okay, so this series of relatively small interactions via email and social allowed her to be able to get to me and connect with the speaker afterwards. Now, she was really pumped. She was really pumped. And one of the things is that this feels really natural. It may not feel natural to you if this is the first time that you've done this, and this is a point that I should distinguish. None of these things might feel natural to you. We're gonna go through five different examples in total, and at first, they might not feel natural to you, but they will feel natural to the other person. And that's what we're going for. So in this case, Jennifer had been able to begin that relationship with somebody that she really wanted to know. And that's the important part here. And it actually didn't take that much in time total, probably researching and messaging and everything else and thinking about what she was going to wear and how she's going to do that probably took like 90 minutes, right? You can really ramp up the relationship building here to another opportunity to be able to level up in this case is by circling back around with that person after the conference too. And when you speak with them, letting them know that you're going to wrap back around with them after the conference too. Because if you think about it, as someone who is on a panel or somebody who is a speaker at conference, what I've noticed is that as soon as someone does their presentation, then everyone wants to talk to them afterwards. So there's limited time to connect, right? So I'll make a point to find ways to work around this. One of the ways is what we mentioned for Jennifer. Other ways is, I might request to meet up with them before their speaking time, or well after their speaking time in a way that's easy for them. Here's an example, "I'm going to be at the conference on Thursday. I would love to buy you a coffee at 7am before the conference gets started for the day. Or if that doesn't work out, I'm also going to be around after the conference. I'm hanging around till Sunday at 3pm. I'd be happy to do breakfast at this time or buy coffee at this time." It is relatively easy, but especially if you've already had some level of initial connection with that person at the conference, it can work really, really well. Another thing to note, too, is that it doesn't actually have to be speakers, something else that I've done quite a bit is I'll find out who's going to do attend the conference, and be able to contact those individuals prior to the conference going. That does two things for them, it gives them something to look forward to, that is out of the ordinary of the conference. And often if you're meeting with them early, it can give you another person to be able to experience the conference with and then that often creates a stronger relationship too. And especially if you meet up with them earlier on, shortly after they arrive or before the conference really gets going, then it heightens the chance that you're going to be able to spend more time with them in a variety of different ways, even if just passing and waving again in the conference hallways. Okay. So it does require a little bit of detective work to do that. What you'll find is a lot of conferences nowadays, or events in one way or another, try to create a community around it. And they'll use apps, they'll have attendee lists, they'll have, there's a lot of different ways that you can find out who is going. And then you can pick and choose from the people that you're really excited to get to know for one reason or another, whether that happens to be an industry they're in, a role that you're excited about, just somebody that you have heard of, and hadn't connected in your industry with or somebody who you just happen to be on their social media and realize that, wow, this might be a cool person. All of those are okay. And 100% of those are great reasons to be able to reach out to them, share what attracted you to them in the first place. And it doesn't have to be complicated. It can be as simple as, "Hey, I clicked on your social media, I realized that we have this and this in common. I realized that we both do mountain biking and are attending this conference. And I would love to get connected with you. What day are you flying in? I'll be there on Tuesday, I would love to buy a coffee." It can be that simple. Okay, this next one is called the "gatherer". This is where you're bringing people together. Bringing people together and allowing them to bring other people together along with you in one way or another. So instead of you going to someone else, someplace else, and seeking out connections, this is the backwards approach where you're bringing people to you in one way or another. Now, this is something that I've done over and over again. But also recently we had a client who did this exact thing.

Jill 29:20

The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker, and I love gathering people together. So the Art of Gathering book talks about how to bring people together in a meaningful way. And I would say that's one way that I have practiced everything that I've learned, and that is by bringing people together. So I had a party at my house a few years ago called Chats and Charcuterie, where just had a Charcuterie board and then I brought people. This was kind of like towards the end of COVID. So people only talked about COVID when you got together, and I was tired of talking about COVID and so I was just like, "Okay, no, we're gonna talk about different things." And so I invited people over to my house, we set up a big circle and it just organically took place like the conversation. And we never brought up that subject and everyone just really connected.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:09

That by the way, is Jill and we'll put a link to her full story and full podcast from the Happen To Your Career podcast. But I wanted to share that tidbit for how you can use this to connect with other people in a gathering-type format. Now, I've done this quite a bit, I mentioned that earlier. Sometimes we connect around a particular idea. For example, you know, we had somebody who used to work with our Happen To Your Career team and she was just copywriting for us. She is amazing. And one of the things that she did was she hosted parties at her house every single month to connect with other people to talk about Enneagram. And that turned into this thing that everybody looked forward to for years. And she got to meet so many people through that type of event over and over and over again, every single month. And she didn't have to go anywhere, she did have to do a little planning, they would make tacos every single time and that was it. That was the extent of it. Pretty cool, right? But you can actually combine this together with the conference goer, too. An example of that, where you're combining the conference goer with the gatherer, well, I've done dinners or meetups big and small, many times where I've organized people together for conferences. Remember those lists we're getting access to other people who are going to be there? Well, I've invited a group of people to dinner and I will state exactly that, "Hey, I'm putting together a group of really interesting people that I would love to meet. And I would love to have you there." And then I would reference why I'm interested in having you there. What's the context and say, "We're getting together on this night, this day, at this place, it's going to be a small dinner, there'll be about six of us or so. And we'd love for you to join us." That's it. That's an example of a small one. I've also organized groups that are like 40, or 50 plus people where it turns into a full-on meetup. And it doesn't have to be complicated. The invites can be very, very simple. Generally, when people are going to a conference, they want to connect, they want to have things that are outside the normal, they want to feel like they belong in one way or another. This is an easy thing that you can not take advantage of but appeal to. And then this allows you to be able to begin a connection in a new and different and very natural way. Now the cool thing out of this, the extra benefit out of this is you get a lot of connections all at once. So you might know that I'm very much a maximizer. I love creating multi-purpose or multi-benefit activities. And this definitely falls into that category for me. Let's go into number four. Number four is what I call "The Friend Maker". Meaning I'm going to make you my friend. This is something I've also done over and over and helped many of our clients too. Here's how it goes. You find a person that you are genuinely interested in. You want to meet. And you take a very direct approach with that. I want to tell you how I met my friend, Jenny Foss, who's been on the podcast. She runs a really interesting resume business, which she's transitioned and grown over the years. And the way that I met her, I don't remember how I got introduced to her work, somebody must have sent me something or I happened along the interwebs ended up hearing about Jenny. And right away, I could tell that this is somebody who I wanted to know. This is somebody who I would likely be friends with. And she lived in the Portland area. We had that in common. Because I've lived in Portland in the past, she just seemed super fun. She seemed into some of the same things that I was into. She had kids approximately the same age. There were all of these different things. So I had emailed her and said, "Jenny, I don't know how we have not met before. We happen to work in... We both work in careers. And we have some similar friends. And I would love to connect. I'm coming to Portland in two weeks and wondering if I can invite you to dinner or if I can buy you coffee." So in result, super simple, but of course she said yes. And I've been able to grow that friendship. She's super fun. I got to meet up with her a variety of different times different ways. She's been on the podcast, I've done different partnerships with her. It's turned into something else, but that's not how it started. That's not how it started at all. It started from simply saying, "Jenny, you're awesome. I'm going to make you my friend." That's it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:47

But you can do the same thing if that feels too forward to you, then here's an example of another one. We call this one, the "Doer". The doer is where you're able to connect through work, in one way or another by doing the work. This can be in quite a few different forms. For example, one of the things that you could do is connect through a volunteer cause where you're actively working, you're actively rolling up your sleeves in one way or another, to be able to connect with other people that you either want to meet, or involved with organizations that you're excited about, or anything else that you might have in common with. Now, another example of this might be where you connect by project. For example, there's a variety of open source projects out there, let's say that you are someone who can write code or you do project management or any number of other things like that, then you can actually become involved through a project and actually do the work. Now, one of the fun things that we've seen about this is not only can this be a way to experiment with something, we talked about experiments in detail in both the HTYC book and on the podcast. And I'll put a link to a variety of different types of career experiments, which also talks about different ways to connect. And I'll put a link to that in the show notes. But not only is this a great way to experiment, it is a wonderful way to get to know people and have just through the natural course of interaction around a particular cause. Being able to have natural recommendations come up, "Oh, you have to meet this person. Can you introduce me to them?" And guess what? That actually leads us right back to the beginning. Here's one of the fun things over and over again. We started with introductions. And this leads us into our bonus way to connect with people. When you're meeting people in any context when you're in the course of normal conversation, people might say like, when you're volunteering they might say, "I've got a friend who's in strategy at Microsoft", or "My sister, Jenny, has worked in the craft brewing world for years." And if that interests you at all, all you have to do is ask. You can say, "Oh my gosh. I would love to meet Jenny. Would you be willing to introduce me to Jenny?" And then that sets you right back at the path of least resistance. Introductions can lead to more introductions. And when you make it easy on people that are very willing to help, introductions become the gift that keeps on giving. Pretty cool, right? All right.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:24

Last but not least here. I want to share a couple of things that you can do. A couple of things that you can do today, right now, in order to make this easy on you. Thing number one. If you're less comfortable, I would encourage you to practice. Practice with someone else. This might sound ridiculous, they're like "I don't need to practice." But what we find, even though we're working with really, really talented people all over the world, is that almost everybody, almost everyone is somewhat uncomfortable with this. And that's okay. It's because we don't take the opportunity to practice. So if you're in that category of being less comfortable, find somebody to practice with, find an accountability partner, join our community, find a coach, find a friend who's willing to practice with you and have these types of interactions, have these types of beginning conversations or practice asking. But in any case, start to practice. If you find that you want to do something, you want to reach out to someone in one way or another or that you're nervous about a conversation that you have scheduled, that's your indication that it's going to be useful for you to practice. It's okay. Practice and you'll feel more confident when you go to have the actual conversation or an actual interaction. Number two, if you're already comfortable or have some level of comfort, then I would encourage you to choose one of the examples today. The Path of Least Resistance, the Conference Goer, the Gatherer, the Friend Maker, the Mentor, or the Doer. Choose one of those examples and start today. Again, you'll find all of the references, all of the links, resources, and everything else that we talked about, you'll see them in the show notes, or you'll have them emailed to your inbox and take advantage of those.

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:17

Hey, if you've been listening to our episodes here at Happen To Your Career and you want to make an intentional career change to much more meaningful work and have it neatly laid out into an organized framework, well, guess what, we actually have that available for you in the Happen To Your Career book. It's available on Amazon, Audible anywhere else where you get your books. You'll learn about the five hidden obstacles, stopping your career change, how to figure out what would truly make you happy with your career. And what brings you more happy more often. And more importantly, how to transition to a much more fulfilling career and life. You can find the book on Amazon, Audible anywhere where books are sold, by the way, people are particularly loving the audio book, which you can access right now in second.

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:11

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up for you next week right here on Happen To Your Career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:18

What's the best way to meet new people, quickly test new careers, and pave the way for creating your very own role, maybe custom fit to you even? Most people think that it must be some amazing tactic, but it's not. It's one particular type of experimentation.

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:36

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Dave Crenshaw 00:01

That aspect of loving what you're doing is so critical. I'm not saying something that is actually false, which is just follow your passion and the money will follow. That's not true. But what is true is that if you're doing something that you love, and it's fun, it's more likely that it will happen.

Introduction 00:26

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:51

Is there any particular subject or area that people tend to come to you for? Maybe you're great at creating travel itineraries, or maybe everybody comes to you when they have a problem and needs to talk about it. So you don't even have an answer on this right away. But as you're listening to this episode, thinking of this can actually be really helpful as a way to begin figuring out how to do work that you enjoy. In fact, Happen To Your Career turned 10 years old this year, and this is exactly how I started our company.

Dave Crenshaw 01:28

I think we always view getting fired as a negative thing or that it's personal. But sometimes it's actually the right thing for us or for another person. If we're leaving, and we've got somebody in that position, letting go is not always a bad thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:43

By the way, that's Dave Crenshaw, and this episode is going to flip the script a bit because I was a guest on his podcast, The Dave Crenshaw Success Project. He asked me really intriguing questions, many that I haven't been asked before on other podcasts and other guest appearances. And I enjoyed our conversation so much that I wanted to share it here on our podcast. Also, an unexpected subject we dove into was, Dave and I discovered we both have been diagnosed with ADHD. We had a really great discussion about how each of us had been able to harness it, allowing us to create unique career pathways that work for us, allowed us to be successful. And I've shared different parts of my story over the years, but I've never really laid out the full original story as Dave refers to it. And with HTYC turning 10 years old this year, it was nice to be able to reflect on many of the career changes I personally made and how each one of them even being in a rock band has contributed to HTYC that exists today. Let's jump into the conversation.

Dave Crenshaw 02:47

So I always like to start by asking people the same question because what we're going to do in a very loose chronological order, we're going to explore your career path. So when you were a teenager, what did you want to be when you grew up?

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:03

All the things. I wanted to be all the things. Now the real answer is that it changed quite a bit. I started out wanting to be a... I wanted to go into space at one point. And then there was a time where I wanted to be a videogame designer. I drew a very, I guess, long video game, this was back when video games only scrolled two ways like 2D along the screen.

Dave Crenshaw 03:29

Sure. Yeah. Legend of Zelda 2.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:32

Oh, yeah. Absolutely. So there was that point all the way to architect to, I wanted to be in a band as I really got interested in music. It was quite a few different things. And when I realized I was not going to be in a band for the rest of my life, because turns out, bands travel all the time. And I realized when I was 15, I didn't want to do that.

Dave Crenshaw 03:56

Oh, so it's 15. What kind of music were you doing?

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:58

I was really into Pearl Jam, Nirvana, but also Blues. And like there was a point in time where I got asked to play with a Blues band. And turns out I wasn't old enough to go into the bars and play.

Dave Crenshaw 04:14

Yeah, there's that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:15

There was that but yeah. Quite a bit of that. That was my main, like, Pearl Jam was literally the password when I only had one-word passwords for a long, long, long time.

Dave Crenshaw 04:28

Well, that sounds like a child of the 90s talking about Nirvana. Yeah, so because I also had a band for a few years.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:37

Oh, really?

Dave Crenshaw 04:38

Yeah. This was in the early 2000s. But yeah, my wife supported me while I had a band. So.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:44

That is fantastic. I'm learning so much about you, Dave.

Dave Crenshaw 04:47

Yeah, yeah. Well, we're here to learn about you but it's still fun to make that connection. So what did you study when you went to college? What was your focus then?

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:59

Similar to my childhood, you'll notice a few patterns here.

Dave Crenshaw 05:03

Okay.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:03

I made a lot of changes. I think I changed majors nine times if I recall correctly.

Dave Crenshaw 05:12

Wow. So with that many major changes, the question that comes to my mind is, have you been diagnosed with ADHD?

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:20

Yes. And if I'm not mistaken, you have as well. Is that correct?

Dave Crenshaw 05:26

Yep. Freaking off the charts. ADHD the psychologist said to me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:31

Freaking off the charts. I love that official diagnosis. I would put that on resume. And everyplace else.

Dave Crenshaw 05:37

Every time I got on stage. I tell that story. But so where did your knowledge of that, at what point did your knowledge of that diagnosis come? Did that come later?

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:48

Much later in life. In my late 20s.

Dave Crenshaw 05:53

Okay. All right.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:54

I just knew that I couldn't stick with things for some reason. And that was how it showed up, I was very excited about things I would learn rapidly. And I would blow through all the learning, do a huge amount of creation, and focus on whatever I was excited about, and then get very bored very quickly. And my performance would tank in whatever area I was interested in at the time. And then I would move on, and then I would feel bad about myself and shame myself and all the things and then wonder what was going on and then I move on to the next thing and forget about it and be excited.

Dave Crenshaw 06:32

Boy, that again, that sounds so familiar. It wasn't until I... so I was probably around 29 or 30. That's where I went and said, "I'm jumping from career to career. I don't want to be like this." Because I want to be a father that can consistently provide for my family, what's going on? And then that's when I got the diagnosis. So for me, that was a turning point in figuring out, "Oh, I have a name and a face to this. I can manage it by learning skills." Was it like that for you? Was getting that diagnosis helpful? Or was it more just well, that's great knowledge, but it's not changing my behavior at all?

Dave Crenshaw 08:03

Yeah, so it's interesting. All the years I've done, this topic has not come up yet.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:06

That's a great question. And I don't, even though, on our show the Happen To Your Podcast, we've talked about this topic a lot. And just with friends talked about this topic a lot. I don't think I've been exactly asked that question before, let me think about it for a second. I think by that point in time, I was accepting that I was wired differently, even though I didn't understand where it was coming from. And I was starting to really leverage that and use that to my advantage. So what I'm very thankful for is I had a variety of people in my life that were willing to take me on and deal with the negative sides of how ADHD showed up. And that really allowed me to cultivate the very, very positive sides of it, which gave me a huge competitive advantage to all people who don't have ADHD.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:08

Really? Interesting.

Dave Crenshaw 08:10

Yeah, it hasn't. I mean, maybe someone mentioned it offhand, but not like this. And so I do want to dig in a little bit to it. Because what people don't realize is, you know, it depends on the statistics you look at. But, you know, let's go on the high end, we're talking about 10%. So 10% of the people in the world have had the clinical condition of Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, that is almost always genetic, and the way that it's passed. So usually, you see a parent, did you have a parent that was dealing with ADHD?

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:38

Yeah, so we were just celebrating my dad's birthday. This past week, we all went and stayed in a big house and everything and my dad cannot sit down. Just cannot. He'll hold conversation for a little bit, then he's on to the next thing. So yes.

Dave Crenshaw 08:52

Okay. So what that means is you either work with somebody or you know somebody or you've got somebody in your family that's dealing with this. And so I want to ask a question that's a little more personal with it. How functional were you prior to getting the diagnosis? Because I think functionality is a very, very important aspect of knowing what you're dealing with.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:16

Hmm. I think it depends on how you define functional. However, for me, in some ways, I have learned to operate well around other people and in certain environments. And part of that was because I kept finding myself over, and this is actually thanks to my dad, too. My dad very much has this– "we're just gonna figure it out" type of attitude. It doesn't matter what it is, like, we're gonna launch a rocket in the backyard, no, a big rocket. And like, we'll just figure out how to do it. None of us are rocket scientists, but we'll figure it out. You know, and that's very much what I grew up with. So I think that that type of mentality really helped to carry me through to figure out how to operate in so many different environments, and combined with the fact that I was around really challenging situations. And I kept taking on very, very challenging situations over and over again, that propelled my skills and development and forced me, whether I liked it or not, to find ways to deal with it positively. Also, many ways to deal with it negatively. But then it became this sort of petri dish and experimentation, where I could pick and choose and see that this method allowed me to build a relationship with my family and with my coworkers. And this other method allowed me to get a lot of stuff done but, you know, would tank all the relationships and people around me.

Dave Crenshaw 10:46

Yeah. Well, I love how you took that and were looking for ways to use it to your advantage. And what I like about your story is you're highlighting something that I tell people, which is every strength has an associated weakness, and every weakness has an associated strength. And I feel like, there are a couple of camps that I see way too often when it comes to ADHD. One is the person who says, this is not a superpower, right? This isn't a good thing. And if you start treating it like as a good thing, people don't take it seriously. And they don't believe that it needs help. Right? And I feel like that does a discredit to the value that a weakness can be turned into a strength like ADHD. And then there's the other camp, it's like, this is a superpower and it's wonderful, and I can do anything with it because I have ADHD. Which also is not accurate. There is a cost associated with it. And there are skills that we must learn to manage it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:52

Yeah, we have a... I don't think it really matters what you call it, however, we have a tendency in our organization to think about this as there are a really positive side of what you're calling strengths. And then also of those strengths, there is a shadow side, or what we've referred to over the years of as an anti-strength, essentially. And I think what is really fascinating about that is that's just as true for ADHD, as it is for any other way that someone is wired, whether it is more normalized or not. And what I found, and this is the part that really just fascinates me is that, you know, is this actually a disorder at all? Or is it just one of the many, many, many ways in which people are wired? And I think that's one of the reasons I love looking at it through the strengths lens, is because then a lot of that stuff starts to fall away and you realize the same rules are true, no matter how you operate, no matter what way your brain is structured. And I find that to be a healthier place to operate from.

Dave Crenshaw 13:10

Yeah, exactly. Okay, so let's return to your story. What did you graduate in when you graduated from college?

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:16

When I finally graduated, I was a super senior, partially because I made all the changes along the way. And eventually, I started a business, doing painting and light contracting, and a number of other things too. And that was way more fun than studying to me. But it caused me to take an extra year, I was taking really low amount of credits. And then I was working 60 hours a week with my, essentially I guess, it was my third business at that point. But the first successful one, when I finally graduated, I realized that I loved the business elements. And so I graduated with a human resources degree, a general management degree. And I'm pretty sure I dropped my other major of marketing, at the same time. I think there had like one or two more classes, but I wanted to get out of there. So that was it. After all the nine changes, that's where I ended up.

Dave Crenshaw 14:15

And after that, there was a period of time that you basically entered the corporate world. How did you make a transition from that of basically being a business owner doing odd jobs, subcontracting work to actually working for a structured corporation?

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:30

Very poorly.

Dave Crenshaw 14:32

Okay.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:33

No, here's what I mean. It's not necessarily... I've heard a lot of people say, "Hey, I'm unemployable. And I could never ever work for another organization." And it wasn't about that for me as much not at that time. Instead, it was more that I had the situation that I actually loved. I had, you know, at the height of it, I had about 20 people working for me in that business and it was really profitable. I made, I don't know, like 40-ish thousand dollars a year, which is a little better than a million dollars when I was a college student. And it was enjoyable, I was learning all the time. And although I didn't love, you know, contracting and exterior painting, it wasn't the world's most fun thing, it was definitely useful skills, and I was contributing. So I went from that set of feelings. And something that I was really enjoying to doing what I felt I was supposed to do. I didn't have any positive role models for business owners around me. So instead, I assumed that what you did to be successful was you went and got a job. And then you move up the ladder really quickly. And then you make lots of money, and then you're happy, right? Isn't that not how it goes, Dave?

Dave Crenshaw 15:43

That's the dream in air quotes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:45

Yeah.

Dave Crenshaw 15:46

Right.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:47

So I just, with my limited exposure, I didn't understand that that was a thing that you could do. It sounds crazy. But I didn't understand. I didn't get it. So instead, I thought that when I had this really wonderful job offer what other people consider to be a good job that paid reasonably well and I was going to be able to, they were going to buy me a BMW, and all these things. And my friends and family are saying, "Oh, my goodness, you've got a job straight out of college like you've got to take that. You've got to do that." I assumed that I had to. So I sold all the pieces of my business and you know, assets and the trucks and things like that. And then I went to work, and it wasn't great.

Dave Crenshaw 16:36

Do you regret that you did that? That you sold off the business?

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:40

I did at first. Like almost immediately. I'm like, wow, this is terrible. But here's what ended up happening out of that experience, which I don't think I would change for almost anything, is I went and I was there for a year. And I was working in Portland, Oregon area. And so I was commuting. You know, my commute was roughly about two and a half, sometimes three hours a day, going both ways. And I was sitting in traffic. So I was having a lot of time to contemplate and a lot of time just hating life. And I legit had these thoughts over and over again, every single day where I was like, "Oh my god, is this what life is really like? Is this what you're supposed to do? Like, is this what adulting is?" And I thought I just couldn't hack it. So I kept trying over and over again. And at some point, I realized, this is terrible. Like I had gained 50 pounds. And I was just not happy. And my wife, a brand new bride at the time, was not happy with me either. Because I was working 80 plus hour weeks. And so I decided I had to have a conversation with my boss. So this is the part that ended up changing everything. He worked in another state, actually. So I called him on the phone. He listened for 20-30 minutes, asked a lot of questions, a lot of really great questions, carrying questions is what I'd say. And I thought, "Oh, my goodness, why didn't I have this conversation a long time ago?" And then what happened is three weeks later, he came into town, and then he fired me.

Dave Crenshaw 18:19

Interesting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:20

Yeah, so that took a very different turn than what I expected. But I would say the wonderful to answer your earlier question really quick, the wonderful, really positive thing that came out of that is on the way driving home after being fired, and realizing "Oh, crap, I brought my new bride down here." And we don't even have a job to show for it. I took her away from her family and everything. And like now I have to tell her? Oh, my goodness, I have to like call her and tell her?" And it was pouring rain as it does in Portland sometimes. And I'm like, I can never ever, ever do this again. Like I have to figure out a way to take control of my career and figure out how to have something that's much more fulfilling that also earns quite a bit of money. And so that was the start, which became, you know, a 25-year journey almost at this point to what has led to now. So that's, there we go.

Dave Crenshaw 19:20

Do you feel that him firing you was actually a kindness? Or was it, he just knew you didn't want to work there?

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:30

You know, at first, I was. Well, at first I was really embarrassed, honestly, for so many different reasons. And I wasn't that old. Wasn't that mature, necessarily. And so I was embarrassed and I felt like he had taken it out on me. And it's like, well, why did... And that I don't think was reality. I think he was making what he felt was the best decision for the organization at the time because I also wasn't performing very well because I hated it. Oh my goodness, I despised it. And I'm not somebody who can just like fake it at work necessarily, I have to actually feel great about my situation to perform wonderful, as well. But here's the interesting part of that. Many years later, I ran into a number of people that I had worked with at the organization. And we started talking about it and ended up connecting with them and realize that he was actually very conflicted about that. He didn't really want to fire me, but my performance was so bad, that he felt that he had to, and didn't really have another alternative at that point in time, like that section or the organization that I was leading was not doing very well. And he felt like it was legit the right thing to do. So.

Dave Crenshaw 20:44

Yeah, that's why I asked that, because I think we always view getting fired as a negative thing, or that it's personal. But sometimes it's actually the right thing for us or for another person. If we're leaving, and we've got somebody in that position, letting go is not always a bad thing. And as you're telling that story, it reminded me of a couple of things. I have a book called "The Focus Business". And the book actually compares entrepreneurs to superheroes. And what I do is I say, there are seven supervillains that are trying to destroy you, and your business. And I'm talking about real-world things, like, marketing, customers, employees. So there are two things in your story that reminds me of that. Number one is the concept of the bear. And the bear is a villain who is in business, they're working in your business. And they're creating messes everywhere they go. And a lot of people have a really, really hard time letting go of that person, when in fact, it's better for them to let them go. It will help them be more successful. And the other thing is, you know, as you're talking about standing in the rain in Portland and making that decision, that's an origin story right there. Right? That's a pivotal moment. And one of the origin stories that applies, you know, I'm talking about, the book talks about entrepreneurs, but I think it applies to other people as well, as adversity. You're faced with a terrible moment. And it forces you to make a decision. This is the Iron Man's story, right? He's trapped in a cave, and he has to build the Iron Man suit to escape. It's the same thing, like, you were saying, "I can't do this to my family." And that spurred you to create, really the beginning part of the business that you have now, which is quite successful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:24

Absolutely. And I think that the other thing that I'm really thankful for, though, you're talking about firing people. I've fired hundreds of people, like multiple hundreds of people over the last 20 years. And I think that it's caused me to look very, very differently. Getting fired at such a young age, and my first you know, quote-unquote, professional role, that great role that everybody told me I suppose to get, it's really changed how I looked at it because it became such a wonderful situation for me. And now think about it more as, what happens if this person stays here? What am I denying them of? Because if they're not doing well, and they're not benefiting the organization, first of all, they're blocking the spot for some other person in the world that can fill that, and we're denying that person. But more importantly, we're denying this other person to go find what they are really wonderful at, what would be meaningful in their life right now. And, this is very much how we look at things in our organization. A lot of people look at our website or listen to our podcast, they're like, "Oh, you help people make career changes." But really what we do is we are focused on changing how people think about and actually do work. And this is a great example of a different way to think about what work even is, and what creates a great situation for you, this situation of being fired.

Dave Crenshaw 23:51

Yeah. Well, I love how you took that experience that you had working in corporations helps you now too, because now you understand what that was like. I don't think you'd have the success that you're having now and teaching people about their careers if you hadn't gone through that path.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:08

No, I wouldn't. Out of those hundreds of people, I probably fired about half of them. Well, let's be honest, like the first half of them, like, I had some may throw Cheetos at me and other things. But like the later, the last, you know, about 150 or so, people would, like... we would basically end up in tears together. And then they would say thank you and we had to hug on the way out the door.

Dave Crenshaw 24:28

Oh my gosh, I'm so glad that you just said that. Because that's exactly what I say in my book, in the Focus Business.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:37

Interesting.

Dave Crenshaw 24:38

The one of the most common thing I asked, you know, ask the audience, "What do you think people say when you fire them? If they're the bear and they're making these messes, what do you think they say?" And the word is "Thank you." And the people around you say "Thank you", right? Because that's also part of it. It's not just the individual. It's the collateral damage that's happening with the other employees who are dealing with this. It's a terrible thing. And no one wants to hear this really. But the truth is sometimes being let go or letting someone go is a catalyst for them finding success in the future.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:11

Yeah. And that's, yeah. What if it were the best thing that could happen to them? Just like it was the best thing, one of the best thing certainly that happened to me in my life, like, what if it was that way, especially if we can, you know, love and support them in that particular way?

Dave Crenshaw 25:26

Yes. Certainly. Yeah. Talk to me about the early stages of what is now your career. What were some of the first steps that you took that led to, would you say that the creation of the podcast was the first big thing? What was the first big step where you were making money and profitable?

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:44

Well, with our organization, Happen To Your Career, this came, oh my goodness, many years later. So we're about 10 years old now. And this is 2023. So 2013, is where it began. And began with the podcast and coaching. And those were, that's basically what we had. That was the business and itself, people paid us money via coaching. And we would help them make ginormous career changes or help them get raises are help them find fulfilling work. And then the podcast became really the catalyst for how the business continued to develop. Because through that source, we started getting feedback from people all over the world. And we started realizing that my experience of having less than mediocre work is a normal experience. And that's what most people in the world have. And unfortunately, even when you look at, I don't know, there's so many studies out there, and Gallup, as an organization does a really nice job of providing a lot of that data. But Gallup has even gotten rid of the terminology they use to use, what they would call a "great job", something that is like really highly fulfilling, like where people are enamored with their work. And they now, it's such a small portion when you read their most current studies, they don't even put it in there anymore. Instead, they focus on what creates a good job, what they call a good job. And that's now the goal, like, we are doing a good job because so few people have great work that it seems almost unattainable. And I, although I love the work that they do at Gallup, I wish that they would not continue to choose that because it's a misnomer, especially today, more so than ever before. So anyhow, to answer your question, the podcast was the catalyst to getting all of the feedback, meeting people all over the world, and realizing that people are having these experiences and that we could uniquely help them, think about this and change their reality in a very different way.

Dave Crenshaw 27:52

How did you get your first clients for coaching? That is usually the hardest part. So you built the Happen To Your Career, but where did the first people come from that actually paid you to get this consultation in coaching?

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:07

That should be an easy question. I feel like I should remember that forever. You know, well, here's the reason why it's a little bit convoluted for me because I was, at that time, my wife and I, we were very focused on me becoming a VP of this organization that I worked for, really wonderful organization, really had a great experience with them. And the goal was, I was going to become a VP of HR for the organization, you know, they flew me to headquarters and everything, we were picking out a house to head down that track, we're gonna have a house built, like, that's how serious we were about it. And then at some point, we realized that our goal was to move to Omaha, Nebraska, to be able to be on the VP track, so that we could then earn enough money and get the resume experience to then come back to Moses, Lake Washington, where we lived. And we kind of had this realization moment, where it's like, this is stupid, like, why would we do this? Like, we're already like, we're not gonna do it for the money, we're already earning great money, or we're going to do it for the resume, like, I don't need more experience on the resume. And so we started questioning everything. And one of the ideas that came out of that is that I had wanted to go back to owning my own business again. And I had told that to the people that had hired me, I had also told them, it was gonna be, like, 10 years in the future. But that accelerated that and we realized, "Okay, well, what's that going to look like?" Well, at that same time, I had been going and meeting with people just for fun, because people as it turns out, when they heard all my stories of career change, and like, how did you get a $40,000 raise here when they said they weren't giving raises or promotions, and how do you go from operations into HR? All these things they would ask, "Well, how did you do that?" And so turns out, I like coffee and they were willing to buy me coffee to tell them how I did that and then share insight, which then they could duplicate. So I was doing that a lot. So I was getting paid in coffee for a while. And then at some point, people started to offer to pay. They were sending me thank you notes and gift cards. And I'm like, this is great. Like, I will take all the Starbucks gift cards you can send me.

Dave Crenshaw 30:24

So people were paying you before you were asking to be paid?

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:27

Yes.

Dave Crenshaw 30:27

Oh wow. That's interesting

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:28

So here's that. I'm the type of person sometimes where the burner has turned and I have to touch it a few times to realize that it's hot. And that was certainly the case here. Because I was having that experience. And we're like, "Well, I could own a business. What kind of business could I start?" And only after that, like the 20th or 30th of these conversations and people offering to pay, did I realize, "Oh, maybe there's something here. Oh, yeah, that could make sense. I'm already doing that." So it was accidental in that way, and very organic.

Dave Crenshaw 30:40

How long did it take you, like, would you guess roughly? Was it months? Was it years of this happening until you finally like it clicked in your head?

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:13

It had been going on for a couple of years.

Dave Crenshaw 31:15

Wow. Okay.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:16

And it was, I mean, this is something I was just literally doing for fun because friends and coworkers and family had asked, and I'm like, "Yeah, I can. Sure. Yes, please."

Dave Crenshaw 31:30

There's a phrase that you just tossed in there, and someone might miss it. But I want to highlight it, which was for fun. And a lot of people who are really successful, I've done these interviews, and I see other people that I've coached that aspect of loving what you're doing is so critical. I'm not saying something that is actually false, which is just follow your passion and the money will follow. That's not true. But what is true is that if you're doing something that you love, and it's fun, it's more likely that it will happen. You got to add the gifts and the skills to that, you also got to add the training to it. And so the fact that you were just doing this for fun, was, I think part of the reason why you were good at it. And part of the reason why people were so interested in paying you for it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:17

I agree. And I think there's something else that's really subtle in there that gets lost. Like if you think about it from a strategic point of view, if you are not having fun, as you said, and if you're not doing something for fun, then when you go to get paid for it later on, then if you're starting out with something that is not fun, it's not going to become fun. Most of the time, it's what are the things that you can't stop doing?

Dave Crenshaw 32:48

There you go.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:49

Is a better question. Like I observed this phenomenon over and over again when I was working in HR is that I would have these conversations where I was coaching leaders and coaching managers. And they'd be like, "Ah, this person is not performing." And I would ask them about it. And what we'd find is that they're exhibiting their strengths, the things that they can't stop doing. And that is manifesting in a way that the manager doesn't believe is contributing to their jobs. So quick example, this guy was pretty new line-level supervisor, if you will. And he couldn't stop going from place to place and like talking. And the byproduct of that was he built really strong relationships with the team, everybody loved this guy, they would bend over backward for him whatever he needed. The other side of that was his boss felt he was shirking his duties because he wouldn't stop talking to other people. And he literally could not stop, we could not have paid him enough money, or dropped the whip on him or any of those things. We couldn't have changed that behavior because it was so innate. And that's what he was having fun with. So he moved on to a completely different job in a different organization where that's what he got to do. And he did. So I think it was like double the pay rate. And he's much happier.

Dave Crenshaw 34:12

Now. It's an interesting story. So you started the podcast quite a while ago. Now you're in the top .5% on listening notes, which is if you're not familiar with it, that's a pretty big milestone to hit. I mean, your podcast is quite popular. What are some of the moments that you think have led to the success that you have now? Like, how did you get to that level with the podcast?

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:37

I mentioned it earlier. But that feedback from our listeners is infinitely valuable. And I think there's two sides to that. One, I think part of my strengths allow me to sift through data really well and sift through feedback and resources and incoming information really well and that's just built into how I am wired very, very much. And part of that is because I kind of, in some ways, not that I am a sociopath, but in some ways, don't really care about what many other people think. There are certainly people in my life where I care a lot about what they think– my wife, I very much care about what she thinks. My kids, I definitely care about what they think, and certainly other people too. But it served me very well in that when I get a lot of feedback, it helps me to pay attention to the stuff that is going to be most useful for the people that we felt at the time we could serve best. And so what would happen is we take those little bits of feedback, and we'd apply it. And we made this show just for these people, essentially. And the funny thing about any kind of marketing and psychology is that everybody wants to make things more vanilla if you will. You've probably heard this example in various different ways. But the tendency is like we get all the feedback, and we do all the things. And then all of a sudden, we have this very vanilla show, very terrible, bland show in so many different ways. And instead, we focused on just one tiny group. And what that happens is we made it for them. But then other people want to come along for the ride. And that's caused it to grow quite a bit over the years. But more importantly, than that, is caused it to be super valuable to a group of people to where they just, I literally had a person yesterday, email me and say, "I will be a raving fan forever. Thank you so much." Like that wasn't something like we put in their head. Like that's what they wrote in the email. And that's the type of relationship that we had strive to create. So that's been a big part of it is just sifting through feedback, but also getting that feedback and trying to serve the people that we feel we can help best.

Dave Crenshaw 36:54

That's got to feel really gratifying to hear that kind of response.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:58

It is.

Dave Crenshaw 36:58

Especially you've been working on it for almost 10 years, right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:01

Yeah, yeah, it really is. I feel obligated, I think is the right word and the right feeling to continue to find new and better ways to serve those folks.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:20

If you've been listening to our episodes here at Happen To Your Career and you want to make an intentional career change to much more meaningful work and have it neatly laid out into an organized framework, well, guess what, we actually have that available for you in the Happen To Your Career book. It's available on Amazon, Audible anywhere else where you get your books. You'll learn about the five hidden obstacles, stopping your career change, how to figure out what would truly make you happy with your career. And what brings you more happy more often. And more importantly, how to transition to a much more fulfilling career and life. You can find the book on Amazon, Audible anywhere where books are sold, by the way, people are particularly loving the audio book, which you can access right now in second.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:09

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up for you next week right here on Happen To Your Career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:15

How can you accomplish goals that require having connections, but not be transactional? Well, it turns out there are easy ways to begin relationships that are genuine and feel natural to the other party. What's the key? Well, it turns out it's stop forcing it. What if we only focused on what's easy for you?

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:36

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 00:01

I tried to do that on my own and realized very, very quickly that I was going nowhere fast. The job searches were pretty much leading me. I was very overwhelmed, and very scattered throughout my searches, not really knowing where to focus or how to focus.

Introduction 00:22

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:47

Over the years, we've shown you a lot of career changes that most people would consider impossible. We know from being on the inside of these, that it can be really challenging to think about how on earth someone would make this career change from one drastically different occupation to another or how they might go and get what most people would consider to be an impossible dream job, and many, many other things between. So that's one of the reasons why we take great pains to show you how it works from the inside. For example, how does someone go from identifying a list of organizations that they might want to work for, and getting an opportunity with their number one company on that list?

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 01:37

I was able to properly position myself and focus myself like in this career transition. And that's the key that had been missing this entire time. I didn't know how to position myself. I didn't know how to focus, and I didn't really know what I wanted at the base.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:53

That's Tanya Malcolm-Revell. Tonya's story is super interesting because she was trying to find her ideal opportunity in a completely different country. She's from the US. But her husband and she were relocating to London. The way she found her opportunity is even more interesting, especially since she ended up working with her number one organization that she had said, "Hey, this is where I want to work." So listen close throughout this conversation as she shares exactly how she did it. Here she is telling you about where her career started.

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 02:30

Well, it started in New York City in television production. So I really cut my teeth in the MTV Music Television arena, and was in there, gosh, for about 12-13 years, on and off, doing exploring within television production, and then jumping in and out to different facets of the Music Television arena. So I was, like I said, a TV producer. But I also did experiential marketing around events. And I worked on festivals. And until very recently, I was working as a tour manager for pretty big bands. And like I said, I've done this for years and years and years. And the overwhelming process throughout every new job that I would take was, "I really don't like this." I really don't like something in my job because it's not fulfilling. But it's not necessarily the work itself, although I'm sure there are bits and pieces that drive me nuts. But it's not that particularly, it's a bigger umbrella. And I can't quite put my finger on what the heck it is. But you know, there's a new job, and it's right in front of me. So I'll go ahead and grab that one anyway. And that's been pretty much my story year over a year, you know, the available job and not really diving in deeply into, "Why am I having these thoughts?" "Why is this job career not really fulfilling?" So my journey started, gosh, you heard what I was saying about not being fulfilled about my position. But my day really started to transition really happened when my husband and I decided to move outside of the United States and come over to the United Kingdom. And I was ecstatic for many reasons. But in terms of my career, I thought this would be a great opportunity to just not reinvent myself, but maybe just do that reinvent myself, look at what I've been doing, and start from scratch, which sounds all well and good. And ideally, that would have happened and I would have gotten a job the next month or day or whatever.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:37

24 hours later at least. "We've arrived. Okay, where's it at?"

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 04:42

Unfortunately, after a little bit of a longer ordeal getting a work either the spouse works these out. I just kind of sat down and said I refuse to fall into my old ways. I really need to think about what I want to get out of my next position. I'm in a great place to do that right now. There's no overwhelming monetary need for me to jump into something, as I felt that years and years living in New York City, it's just all about the next job and who knows you. So I felt like just slow down and really evaluate where I was at. And I tried to do that on my own and realized very, very quickly that I was going nowhere fast. The job searches were pretty much leading me. I was very overwhelmed and very scattered throughout my searches, not really knowing where to focus or how to focus. So I'm getting more and more frustrated throughout the entire process. And then of course, as I'm looking at the calendar, all of a sudden, a week has gone by, two weeks have gone by, now than a month, and then two months, three months, and I was getting very bummed out, to say the least. And then I think I went online. And I just said, "I need to find a podcast about career transitions and finding a job." And I stumbled across your interview on Mac's list. And I swear I listened to you. And that Happen To Your Career bootcamp we're talking about, and I say, "Oh my god, that's me. This is what I need." I need guidance, I need a voice who can help me get to the bottom of what I truly need to get, not just for myself, but just great work-life balance for myself, my husband, my career, etc. And I went online, and I think we were talking within the next couple of hours, I called or emailed you right away. And voila, I was inundated with the Happen To Your Career process. And I have to say, Scott, it's when I was talking to my husband. And I said, "This is the first time where I feel like I have found someone in something that is going to make me focus and give me purpose." But I feel like my purpose is about to explode everywhere. And having gone through a couple different conversations with you, I jumped into the boot camp. And the rest is history, so to speak, in the sense that ultimately, and I'll give you the abbreviated version, and then dive in a little bit more deeply. But ultimately, putting in the work and the effort throughout the boot camp, really paying attention to myself and my thoughts and well kind of my gut as well– what worked, what didn't work throughout my career, what I was looking for, what my wants were, what my motivations were, my minimums, my ideals, etc. And just putting this all down on paper, I realized it's not rocket science. At the end of the day, this is me. But what it did for me is it helped to put me into perspective. It helped me to really think about myself in a different light by evaluating, like, my skills, my beliefs, my needs, and my wants. I mean, it was almost like I was able to see myself through a bigger lens. And then in turn, now, I was able to properly position myself and focus myself like in this career transition. And that's the key that had been missing this entire time. I didn't know how to position myself, I didn't know how to focus. And I didn't really know what I wanted at the base. So going through everything coming out of it at the back end with this great, like my career profile, and it's there, and it's what I want, what I need. And then focusing my search on companies based upon that, that shared my belief system that had the values that I was looking for. I targeted Wanderlust, and I think it was one of the first companies that came out of my mouth as soon as I had this great profile. And I was like, "I want to work for Wanderlust."

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:27

Really? That's pretty cool.

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 08:29

Absolutely. And I had a couple of other places on my list as you show. That was always key and number one. So yeah. And then I just did everything that you guys basically coached us to do– the reach out, messaging your network to see who knows who and reaching out to them and seeing if you get introductions and being very bold and forward, which is part of what I do in my job. But in terms of a job search, I was very hesitant to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:57

It's outside your normal conventional operating area.

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 09:00

And that's what the other piece it's like, okay, look, you want something this desperately or this badly, then why wouldn't you work outside of your normal operating levels or normal conventions? What's the worst that they can say? You know. But that's better than no answer, whatsoever, that you wouldn't have gotten in the first place. So I did all of that. And I got into... One of the co-founders of the festival, I got directly to him. And he in turn, then obviously responded to my email. And then because I'm now in the UK, he shot me through to that arm that deals with all of the branding outside of the United States. So then, of course, the bigger conversation started there with that entity. And it was a little bit of a painful process just because they weren't quite ready to have the deeper conversations, although they did recognize that I would be a good fit. It was one of those things. And you've mentioned this, it's not necessarily what they can do for you right then and there. It's about establishing a relationship and keeping that relationship going so that when there is an opportunity, you're the first person they're going to think of. And Scott, that's exactly what I did.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:12

You know, this is so wonderful because I'm not surprised by it anymore. I don't think that's the right word. But I'm always amazed at how when you define what it is that you want, and when you know what you want, and then when you take action or ask for what you want or go after what it is that you want, very often…

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 10:33

It manifests itself, yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:36

Yeah. It is just really interesting phenomenon that I observe all the time. In my life I've observed in a lot of the lives of our students, clearly, this has happened for you. And just like you said, the other really interesting part of that is 100% of the time, or I should say, nearly 100% of the time, what we want is outside the realm of what we've done before. Which means that by definition, it's outside our normal comfort zones, or normal operation zones, or anything else, which also, by definition makes it uncomfortable. So kudos to you for moving through that, because that's not an easy thing to do at all.

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 11:12

It wasn't. But you know, Scott, at the end of the day, if you want something and you're determined to make a change in your life, and in your career, I could not go another day saying, "Oh, I'm not happy." Or "I don't like my job." Or "I wish I didn't have to go to work today." I was over that. I spent way too much time thinking of the negative. So there was only one thing for me to do. And that was focused on me and the positive and the future. I couldn't dwell on the past anymore. And it wasn't beneficial for me, nor was beneficial for my job hunt. So I still am flabbergasted that the conversations went very, very well with Wanderlust, but I'm still flabbergasted that they said, "Hey, by the way, the London events are starting up, and we'd like for you to lead the charge on it. Are you available to start tomorrow?" So yeah, it was exactly like you had kind of presented it in the sense that the hard work, the dedication, having your career profile, or dialing that far down into your wants, your needs, your beliefs, etc, like I mentioned, and coming up with that, you can only find something that is going to speak to you and represent who you are, because that's what you're focusing on, and that's where your career search is going towards. So at the end of the day, whatever presents itself is going to be a positive outcome for you, no matter what. And that has been the biggest revelation for me. I will never go out for a job just because it's presented itself on some random LinkedIn job blast and it sounds good. Other than me focusing on companies that I know that I will be appreciated in, I know that I will be able to grow in, I know that I will be able to work in some sort of collaborative environment. A big piece for me that having a flexible work schedule, I really don't like taking the tube during rush hour. I know too many people who do. Having a schedule where I could flex my hours and work from home when I wanted to, and also go into an office if I wanted to. And they are 100% on board with that, which I did a couple of fist pumps in the air when I heard that. But more importantly, working with people whose values are really aligned with me in mind. So yeah, I got all that. I got everything I wanted. That's the craziest part, everything, not one, not two, not two and a half like everything.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:43

It feels crazy right now. But I think the cool part is that now that you've done that, you realize that that is something that you can build for yourself every single time that you want to make a switch or, I don't know, if something changes in your life in which you need something different and you have to make a change for one reason or another because something no longer aligned, then you now have the tools and the experience to know that that's totally possible for yourself, which is super, super cool.

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 14:12

Absolutely. And I have the tools to be able to pivot. I mean, it's called a career pivot for a reason, right? And I feel more confident in being able to shift left to right, front to back, whatever, but knowing that I'm going to move forward in a direction that aligns with me. And again, I've never had that before. I've never had that feeling behind me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:33

What do you feel like were some of the key either events or things that had to happen in order for you to be ready to make this type of change and look at it in a different way? As you look back, what were some of those for you? And I think it's a little bit different for everybody but I'm curious.

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 14:51

Yeah. Absolutely. I think 100%. Like phase one was figured out what the heck I wanted to get out of my career. What I wanted to get out of this next phase in my life. And I think everybody has to do that before they can be successful in anything period. And you can go through life, you can go through your jobs and be successful. But to truly get every drop out of the experience, and more positive, obviously the negative, you've got to figure out what makes you tick, and what's gonna keep you going 100%.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:23

Well, let me ask you even a little bit before that, what caused you to get frustrated? To the point where you wanted to do it differently than you had done it before. I know that you had mentioned, hey, there was this move to London, and it seems like the opportune time, and certainly timing had happened. But I know plenty of people that have made a move abroad or moved to a different country. I've interacted with those people over email that aren't to the point and level where they're necessarily going to take action.

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 15:53

Got it. Absolutely. Well, as I mentioned, I was working in television production and entertainment. And what I didn't mention is I was living in Los Angeles prior to moving to the UK. So being inundated in the entertainment arena, again, was a great stepping stone. It's gotten me to where I'm at today. But what it really quickly does is it frustrates you by the amount of ego that needs to be managed throughout if it's artists, producers, etc. The one thing through my search, my profile, I've really understood that I'm very good at being that person that can morph myself into different situations. So I'm very good at flexing and being supportive of others. And I was doing that more to an extent where it was more detrimental to me and my career health.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:47

That's interesting.

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 16:47

Yeah, I was giving out more to others than I was getting back. So and you know, okay, great. It was me choosing to do this. But the consistency of doing that year over year and feeling like, while yes, I was progressing in my career in terms of title, I wasn't getting anything back in terms of support, or just even if it was just a little kudos, "Hey, by the way, great job." Nothing. Just nothing in that regard. And it didn't make me feel good at the end of the day. While you have the event, the project, the festival, the concert was a success. I was still kind of at a, you could say 1 to 10, I was always at a 5 in terms of what I would get out of it. So I was absolutely frustrated with that. And every job even moved through different arenas, from television production to festivals, thinking, okay, maybe something new and different will happen here. At the base, I really did like a lot of the work that I was doing, it was just this overarching piece that I thought I could change up. And unfortunately, it wasn't working, at least in that entertainment festival TV arena. So with the move, I knew I wanted to put a stop to that cycle. And that I wanted to get a lot more out of myself and out of what I was doing for others. And I wanted to be more empowering to a community, but also something that I could feel proud of and say, "Hey, Mom, Dad, take a look at what I just produced." You know, instead of some random show on MTV. So that was the impetus behind me really starting the journey. London was the conduit, and Happen To Your Career was the platform. So yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:26

I love that. I'm gonna borrow that. It might change from London.

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 18:33

Absolutely. No, but that's exactly, that's my story on the front end into a nutshell. And then other things that's just in terms of what else had to happen to make this happen was very quickly, I've always been into yoga, I've always been into health and wellness. I haven't been the woohoo, you know, 24/7 type of person. But it's always been very integral in my life. No matter where I'd been, if I'd been on the road, I would always take out time to go to the gym, maybe take a yoga class, go to the wide, walk around the park or whatever, you know, have a good meal. So that's always been a foundation of who I am. So, which was great. But I didn't have a network here in London. So the other part is I really had to establish a network and put my face out there, take those leaps that didn't feel comfortable, and maybe present myself at an event where I knew nobody, and with business cards and a handshake just make people know me, like, "I'm here yet again." And I did that. And with a couple of key influencers in the health and wellness market. And it just resonated. So I put myself in front of yoga studios and actually said "Hey, by the way, if there's an opportunity, I'd love to volunteer and help out and once a week or if it's event-based, I am here." And I actually got signed on with one of the largest yoga studios here in London.

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 19:55

And funnily enough, this is a little secret, but funnily enough, we're going to try to see if we can get them on board at Wanderlust because it's such a great studio and I have all the contacts now.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:55

Really?

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:04

Hold on. That's it. This is something that is really interesting that happens with nearly everybody that goes through this process and it's so fascinating to me. You go through, and I'm going to call it just doing the work, you're putting in the wraps, for lack of a better phrase. And inevitably, you start to build relationships. And then as you build those relationships, you don't know where or when necessarily, but those actually end up becoming useful or mutually beneficial for…

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 20:06

[20:35] Like one degree of separation.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:23

[20:37] Yeah, exactly. For a variety of different reasons. Not necessarily just transactional that's gonna get me to my next job, or whatever it happens to be. But this is super, super, super cool. So now, you not only got to know these people, and it sounds like people that you were really interested in knowing anyway, based on the work that you had done, and said, "Hey, this is kind of where my values and interests and everything else fall." But then now it sounds like you're getting to work with them continuously or possibly, right?

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 21:06

Absolutely. And you're right. The people that I have met, just by doing that is, the world is large until it's not. You know, and the health and wellness industry in the UK is booming. But it's still, I mean, compared to the US, it's still fledgling, so the people who shine and actually take an active part and participate, you will see them over and over again. Or you know, or maybe you recognize another person at the next event. So having the touch points with the yoga studios, having the touch points with the gyms, having the touch points with the great health platform aggregator that just kind of brings in the Health Wellness news and not regurgitates that brings it in a nice condensed package to the consumers. And they also have events. So I would go to their events where you would meet influencers in the Health and Wellness arena, whether it's clothing lines, or food products, etc. So just a bunch of different POVs in this arena, then afterwards, you'd get to meet them cards or exchange and so forth, and so on. And that's just what I was doing. And I kept building and building and building, so much so that with Wanderlust, you know, a big part of any event is the ties into the community, and obviously for the consumer draw, but also what can we present to the consumer that they're gonna like, and appreciate. So having gone to all of these wellness industry events, where they presented the new and upcoming trendy thing, or what's resonating, I already know all of this stuff, the research is done. And now we just have to go out and engage them. So I could not have made this up, even if I tried. But no, really I couldn't. But just staying on top of it, even when, you know, here in London, the rain, you know, rainy day didn't really feel like doing anything, I didn't really feel like going up to Soho to go to an event but I just, you know, at the end of the day what do you have to lose, and just did it. And every single time I've walked away saying "Oh my gosh, I got this person's contact. I had a great time and learned more about X, Y, and Z out of everything." And nothing has been too small or too big.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:15

Let me ask you about a couple of different pieces of the process for lack of a better phrase like your journey, we'll call it that. You mentioned earlier, you had sent an email and connected with one of the main people for events.

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 23:29

Yep.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:30

Right? So I'm curious for people, we touched on it earlier, but I'm curious, what you actually did in that particular case, and why you feel that particular email contact, et cetera actually worked? What about it?

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 23:44

That's a great question. So it wasn't as simple as I, you know, it wasn't as streamlined as that. What happened was, I came out of, I forgot what week it was in the boot camp, and I was like, "Eureka! I know what I want. And I want to work for Wanderlust." And again, just started looking at– A; my network first and foremost, to see if I had any ties with Wanderlust. And on the first level, I didn't think that I did. And I just started mentioning it to everybody. Again, I'm trying to manifest it. So I'm throwing it out there. And every person that I met, every person that I had worked with, I said, "Hey, by the way, you know, I'm really interested in working with Wanderlust. Do you know anybody or have you been to one? Etc, etc." So I actually landed on a co-worker who had, she said, "I don't know anybody worked directly at Wanderlust, but I think I know somebody who's good friends with one of the founders." And I was like, "You've got to be kidding me." So based upon my relationship with this woman, which was fantastic, my co-worker, she then introduced me to reached out, yes indeed, that this other woman had a relationship with the co-founder, and then in turn based upon their relationship introduced me on the weight, the strength of my work, my ethics and just what I could bring to the party. So then this woman took it upon my friend's word that I'm a badass and introduced me to the founder. Now, that was great. I've now got an email address, I have somebody who's setting this up, that was a big part. But what really sealed the deal, and this is something that Lisa and I had gone through, and you're sending these emails out to people, and they're getting a crap ton of them day in day out, you've got to differentiate yourself one, but you also have to say, "Look, this isn't just about me trying to get something from you, I want to give something back to you as well, if possible." And it's an information exchange, first and foremost. And I know I'm a little view, but you need to know what that means. And I think the person help in this your transition moving overseas. So more succinctly and more deeply than I've just kind of articulated it, I sent a really badass, excuse my French, email to Sean outlined all of this. And he said, "Yeah, you do seem like the best person. Let me introduce you over to the AMEA people." The people dealing with Europe, Middle East, and Asia.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:45

[26:09] Very cool.

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 23:47

[26:10] And that's how that transpired. It was really cool. But I don't think he would have given me the time of day if, A; if the intros hadn't weren't as strong as they were on me from my friends, but, B; in terms of the written communication from myself, if that had lacked or didn't really show my enthusiasm, then again, I'm one of many, as much as I like to think I'm amazing, which I am. On paper that can fade and fizzle fast if you're not scintillating, or you don't kind of let them know that you're really willing to be the brand, or you're really into their brand.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:47

Especially recently, a lot of research on how these types of connections are made and why they're so effective at. And first of all, it's so interesting that most, not all, but most, like someplace in the range of 70 to 80% of these types of opportunities, these types of "it's my dream job" type opportunities are found based on interactions through weak ties.

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 27:13

Yes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:14

Yeah. Meaning that it is not necessarily somebody in your immediate network. Because if it's somebody you interact with all the time, or somebody who you regularly see or regularly talk to, or whatever else, then you're probably already aware of any people or opportunities that they know immediately. However, it's usually in the less strong ties and less strong relationships, where you begin to find those type of things that aren't known to you when you're seeking it out. In this case, it was a former coworker who…

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 27:44

Yeah. Absolutely.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:46

People underestimate, I have, I did for many years underestimated the weight that is carried behind a strong recommendation. And some of the psychological reasons that trust and credibility are already there, when you have that initial weight behind it for somebody that you know, and like already, and it adds like 150-pound weight to whatever force you're already carrying. So your really awesome written communication that you had sent off was, I don't know, it's like a parachute or something along those lines, or sailboat or something like that. And all of a sudden, you get this huge gust of wind behind it and now you're on cruise. And struggling for an analogy, but we'll work on that.

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 28:24

No, I 100% agree. And again, it was just articulating. It's like, "Look, I am looking for a job in this company, or with this type of company, or with this particular company in general. Do you know anybody? Or just keep me in mind." And again, that was my mantra.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:40

Yeah, this is so amazing for so many different reasons. I'm really curious because we've got so many people that listen to the show that are in the place that you were not that long ago, where…

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 28:54

I was that person listening to the show.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:56

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 28:58

In the same position, absolutely.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:00

Yeah, you've been in the cycle. You're there and you're frustrated, and you're not entirely sure what to do differently. But what advice would you give that person who's in that place?

Tanya Malcolm-Revell 29:11

Don't let the hard days or the days where you don't think you're moving forward, or that nothing's happening stop you or slow you down. I think that for me was the really, really, really tough part when I didn't see the end of the rainbow. You know, the end in sight. I couldn't necessarily get that particular connection that I wanted, or I already gotten some sort of negative feedback or no feedback. Don't let that stop you of anything. Double down in your efforts. And I know it's harder to do than say, but you know what? Caffeine and chocolate will get you through it. Just do it. You've got to do it. Because I worked so hard that when this happened, it felt so friggin sweet, that much sweeter. I would have been happy no matter what. But knowing that I made this happen, it wasn't somebody's coming to me, it wasn't me trying to throw my resume into a random lotto of 100 million other people for the same job. This was me networking, this was me... This was me just kind of sticking with it even when I wasn't getting a response on an email or a phone call, I was just calling back and making sure that they knew who I was. So stay strong, kick-ass. And just remember that you are who you are, and you bring a lot to the table.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:33

Absolutely love it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:40

Hey, if you love this story where we talk through and walk you through step by step how someone got to more meaningful work, then you'll absolutely love our audiobook– Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. I even got to narrate it, which was so fun. And something that I really enjoyed doing and will definitely do for future books as well. But it also contains firsthand accounts from career changers on how they made the move to more meaningful work, just like we include on the podcast here. And actually, it's been called the best audiobook experience ever by some reviewers. You can find those reviews, and the book itself on Audible, Amazon, or any other place where books are sold. Seriously, just pause this right now and go over to Amazon or Audible or wherever you want and download it. You can be reading it and started on your career change in literally seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:34

Now here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week right here on Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 3 31:39

That aspect of loving what you're doing is so critical. I'm not saying something that is actually false, which is just follow your passion and the money will follow. That's not true. But what is true is that if you're doing something that you love, and it's fun, it's more likely that it will happen.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:00

Is there any particular subject or area that people tend to come to you for? Maybe you're great at creating travel itineraries, or maybe everybody comes to you when they have a problem and needs to talk about it. So you don't even have an answer on this right away. But as you're listening to this episode, thinking of this can actually be really helpful as a way to begin figuring out how to do work that you enjoy. In fact, Happen To Your Career turned 10 years old this year, and this is exactly how I started our company.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:38

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 0:01

If there's one thing that I've seen in the last 10 years or so is that our readers, listeners, clients love the idea of strengths. Love the idea that there's a unique value that we can offer to the world in the form of our strengths. But here's the funny thing, when it comes down to identifying and then using our strengths, well, that's where it gets much more complicated.

Introduction 0:31

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:57

When we talk about signature strengths, we're talking about the unique way that your individual strengths work together to make you "you". If you think back over any situation in any area of your life that you have been truly successful and felt like you were operating at your best, what we find is that once we break it down, you're not excelling because of your individual strengths. It's because of how those individual strengths work together in combination. That is the difference between what we refer to as strengths, and what we call signature strengths. Your unique contribution to the world is your combination of strengths, those things that are uniquely making you "you". Those talents that are underneath the surface, that make it easier to be able to do different types of skills– skills that we see all the time. Those are what's on the surface. So there's many, many different combinations, possibilities, and so many ways to your strengths that your signature strengths become very unique. So defining your signature strengths will allow you to really find the value that you can bring to any situation. We often hear, "Well, I know my Clifton Strengths. I should be able to use them to excel." But it turns out, there's a lot more that goes into it. Today we're going to cover quite a bit as it relates to strengths and particularly finding and beginning to use your signature strengths. We will go over an exercise that we've talked about on the podcast, but we'll go over an advanced version that sometimes we don't even use with our clients unless they're in the exact right scenario. And we'll cover a mental barrier that stops almost everyone from identifying what their unique combination of signature strengths are. It's counterintuitive. It's almost comical. And yet it stops every single one of us, including me if I'm not careful at all. More importantly, we'll talk about how to overcome that and I'll give you another exercise that can actually assist with that. Will it be a magic bullet? No. Will it get you started in well on your path? Yeah, absolutely. I think you'll love it. And we'll cover a few stories and examples along the way so that you can see how this can work for you in reality. More importantly, though, and I would say maybe most importantly is, I want you to leave today with an understanding of what signature strengths actually are. And what you can do to begin identifying them so that you can continue to build on them for the rest of your life. Now, if you think about signature strengths, they are the most true representation of you. They're where you're able to be at your best and your truest self. If we oversimplify for a little bit, that's what it is. How do we get there? Well, it's that combination of strengths. Okay, let's talk about the counterintuitive way that strengths work. The way that we think it works, is that if we know our strengths, we should be able to automatically then use them, right? Like if we know it, we should be able to do it. Turns out not the case. The way it actually works is it's a cycle, over and over. You get familiar with your strengths initially, this is a lot of the work that we find behind the scenes we're doing with clients, particularly how your strengths are working together. You would then attempt to define those, then try to use them, and observe how you're using them in the real world. Then that causes you to better refine them to, well, let's say even how you describe them. And then your understanding the depth of your understanding, which then hyper-focuses how you're attempting to use them in the real world, which then allows you to better understand them. You notice that we're going in a cycle. That cycle repeats over and over. It can become an intentional feedback loop for you to understand and then use your strengths and then refine and then repeat. Interesting note here. When we're working even with our clients who have the goal of an intentional career change, we usually don't get into mastering this feedback loop. So this is pretty advanced stuff. The reason why is we actually usually don't need to. A mid-level understanding of your individual strengths where you're beginning to adapt them to your own words, is usually enough to make it to your next role that can be an amazing fit for you. Your next version of extraordinary. More importantly, the real reason why we do this is, it's actually not as useful to you. This concept is not as useful to you compared to if you're already in a role that isn't an amazing fit. We observe that you can grow faster and develop faster in your strengths if we've already got an alignment from a fulfillment standpoint. If you're already in a place where you feel like you can be much more of your truest self. When you're there, that's where you can really start to establish those intentional feedback loops over and over again. So we find that we're really working on the deep level and more advanced level of signature strength stuff, once somebody is already in a much better fit type role. And they're looking to enhance or learn to thrive in that role, where they're wanting to, they already have some level of meaningful work, they already have some level of alignment, and then they're looking to make it better. They're looking to continue to improve on that and take advantage of that and ultimately thrive in that position. Okay, so I make that distinguishing factor because what I find is that everybody wants to go right to the advanced version. That's also the other way it works. It just isn't. That said, what we're going to do today is give you some exercises where you can use them in any scenario that you're in.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:57

Okay. Now, here's another interesting thing that we observe in coaching. At the beginning of this episode, I mentioned that there's a consistent mental wall or a blind spot that occurs with strengths. What is it? Well, people can't see how what they're doing, and how they do it is actually unique. Why does that happen? Well, there's this funny thing that if you're operating as your truest self, then, I mentioned on the last episode that we have a tendency to undervalue if we are operating in a way that is allowing us to... allowing things to be easier for us or easy for us in one way or another, then we have a tendency to undervalue why that's easy and make the assumption that it's easy for everyone. So that's one way to think about it. Because of that, it creates this blind spot. But there's other reasons why that occurs too. Ultimately, they all result in us not being able to see how what we're doing is unique. This comes from a lot of different places, it can come from being in a certain type of situation. Like if you're in a bad fit type situation, and you're not getting to be your truest self on a day-to-day basis, like, let's say that you are approaching burnout, or you have been in a situation where you haven't been able to work significantly in your strengths for a long period of time, that erodes your self-confidence. It makes you low both on the skill side of using your strengths but also the belief side, which is where self-confidence comes from. And what that also means is that as that continues to happen over time, to get to the point where you can then start to see what your strengths are, your combination of strengths are and what you uniquely offer, we have to actually first then rebuild that belief, self-confidence, and address of the current situation. So if you can't see it, if you're finding this, if you're like, "Hey, you know, I've taken Clifton Strengths, and I've taken that assessment. And yeah, it's true, but I don't really get how this is all that valuable." Then that's okay. It probably is a signal, take it as a signal that you may not be able to see it yet. And that's where almost everybody starts. Okay. Quick example here. One of those situations we had recently with one of our clients, she was in a director of ops role she was in the culture and environment, she was not getting any reinforcement of any kind about what she was doing about whether or not it's valuable, and that was just the operating culture there. When she was in that environment for a long period of time, it ended up by not having any kind of feedback whatsoever– both in the job, in the results, in the people she interacted with, it was pretty resolute throughout the overall culture. It ended up eroding her self-confidence. So the question in her head was, "Is what I do valuable?" Initially. And then eventually that erodes to "Am I valuable?" Which is self-worth. So when I mentioned earlier that part of what we're often doing is rebuilding that stage, rebuilding that self-confidence and self-worth, that's what then allows you to be able to take advantage from there, having that base, that foundation is what allows you to be able to take advantage of this knowledge with strengths. Okay. So this external validation, well, it works both ways as it turns out. If you are getting... If you're not getting feedback of any kind, it can erode that base for you, it can erode that foundation. If you're getting negative feedback because of your strengths, it can also erode that foundation. There's many, many examples. And we've talked pretty relentlessly about the shadow side of your strengths, the dark side of your strengths in one way or another on the Happen To Your Career podcast and the Happen To Your Career book, and many other places. Strengths are a reflection of who you are. So how you do anything, in some ways, is how you do everything. And if you're working with those strengths, then you can harness them for more positive results. But also how you do anything is how you do everything. So your tendencies, your natural way that you're wired, your approaches without even realizing that it's an approach is also able to be in a position where it's not actually positive too. It can result in a negative. Here's a quick example. For me, I have a tendency to be very, very future-focused. Very future-focused. I spend all day thinking about the future. I love that. It's my natural tendency. I do it a lot. Also, at the same time, I have a tendency to be very, very strategic, which has a tendency to make me operate at a very, very high level. Okay, so the negative side of that is I can easily miss, just walks right by me without me even realizing, I can miss both the things that are happening right now because I'm continuing to focus on the future. And I can also miss the small details just not even know that that's a thing in one way or another. This makes me terrible when it comes to things like grammar, punctuation when I'm doing something like writing. It makes me often miss details or not think about details when it comes to planning things with my family. It has a lot of really negative repercussions if I'm not careful. That said, if I know that this is a couple of examples of how my strengths work together, then from there, I can actually plan for that. I can actually be able to work with that. I can hedge against that in many different ways. I can learn to use that and then also build in complement in one way or another.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:34

Okay, so everyone's probably heard the saying that opposites attract. But if you think about it, this is one of the reasons why opposites attract because it creates complementary strengths. Like if we were to just look at it from a strengths perspective, my wife and I, Alyssa and I are very different as far as strengths. We share, if you want to use Strengthsfinder terminology or Clifton Strengths terminology, we actually share Maximizer, we're both trying to squeeze every little thing out of every moment. But other than that, we're pretty polar opposite in so many different ways. It's also very complimentary. When we work together, it allows us to be able to achieve and do things and think about things that we just never would otherwise. She is very analytical and has a lot of that detail. She's very detail-driven in that particular way, which complements my futuristic, strategic, and many other things. Okay, so the reason I point this out is because two things. One, I want you to begin to recognize that strength is very much a mental game over and over again. And also you may not be able to go right to where you are using your signature strengths, intentionally, consistently. You're often going to have to build a foundation first, and then continue to work up from there. All right, let me give you another example here of what you can do specifically. I'm gonna give you several exercises that you can actually do. We will include links to examples of these exercises or the instructions for these exercises inside your show notes. And the first is what we've called the past roles exercise. Now I've mentioned this exercise in a couple of different formats. I've mentioned it on our website, I've mentioned it on the podcast, in quite a few other places. So the exercise that's out there. But I want to give you the advanced version. The advanced version can be especially helpful when we're trying to diagnose signature strengths, not just individual strengths. The pastorals exercise, let me give you a reminder of what that is. Part of the reason I love it is because it's so simple to do. So simple. You can literally grab a piece of paper, you can draw a line down the middle. On the left-hand side, you can put all of your past roles, you can start with the most current, what's your most recent role, and then just keep going back. And you can put volunteer roles, you can put your roles outside of work, you can put any roles whatsoever. The reason we focus on roles is because if we're looking at it from a strengths perspective, how you do anything is how you do everything. You don't use your strengths differently at home versus at work. Sometimes you don't get to use your strengths at work, but you don't use them differently when you're getting to it. It's all your strengths. It's all you, it's all your tendencies, it's all the way you're wired, it's all how your dispositions are. So it's just coming from you. It's your truest self, right? Sometimes you let your truest self out more frequently, and sometimes you don't. Okay, left side of the paper, it is you all your roles, you've listed those down. On the right-hand side of the paper, a couple of different things that I want you to do. I want you to list what were the areas that you enjoyed the most. What were the areas you found the easiest. Okay, the reason we do this...This is the super basic version of the past roles exercise. The reason we do this is because it allows us to begin looking for patterns immediately. Often when we have clients do this or other people are listening and then perform this exercise, they can list out all those pieces and then we're not necessarily looking for the magic bullet here, we're just starting to look for clues that create a pattern. So we put this with everything else that you know about yourself. And then we start to observe what are the trends there. It might be that "Wow, you know what, I found that it was incredibly easy to be able to answer tickets in support of the project that I was working on." And those tickets particularly the thing that was easy is it was wonderfully easy to be able to delight the people on the other end. Because you just couldn't stop going above and beyond and writing them little quips that they thought was funny, but also solved the problem. You know whatever it is, we're looking for those patterns. Let's say that that shows up in other places. Another place that it shows up is not in customer support. But in emails, you have for your day job. Part of the way that you get buy-in is that as you're sending emails to your team, you're offering those same little quips in order to get buy-in and maybe recognize that, "Wow, this is a thing that is showing up over and over again." We can start to dig into, okay, what is the strength that's underneath the surface that is causing that to happen where you keep doing this over and over again? And it's not normal for other people to do. That's what we're looking for. We're looking for those clues. But let me give you the advanced version. We have never talked about this before anyplace else. You can use it in tandem with your strengths themes. Although it is more advanced, it's still simple enough to describe here. In some cases, it can be more difficult to execute. And I'll give you a couple of ways you can handle that too. Okay, now that you have on your left-hand side the roles, and on the right-hand side you have your areas that you find the easiest areas that you love the most. I want you to go back and I want you to add, fill in, now that you have this timeline, if you will, to jog your memory. Add in the most difficult projects, time periods, situations or facets of that role, particularly the ones that you were able to overcome with any measure of success whatsoever. Maybe it wasn't a total success, but you were able to create some level of success with any of those projects, time periods, situations, etc. Okay, here's why I say this can be an advanced exercise, because here's what we're looking for in each of those areas. When we go and identify those projects, time periods, situations, what I want you to start doing is after you identify them, I want you to start applying what strengths you see that were required to create that success. So we recommend that a lot of our clients start with StrengthsFinder. StrengthsFinder is not the end-all-be-all. I love it for so many different reasons. And without going into the details of all those reasons, I think the thing that it does best is give you language that can then help you to have your first version of identification of your strengths. But here, you can take that language or that representation or the StrengthsFinder themes, in this case, those what they now call Clifton Strengths themes are, there's 34 of them. And then you can literally list the titles of each one. So I can put futuristic, I can put strategic, I can put woo, I can put whatever it is, and apply that to why I was successful. What was going on there? And when we do this in a coaching capacity when we're doing it in a one-on-one, here's what the line of questioning looks like from coach to our client, like, "Tell me about a situation where you were successful in the end. But it was one of the most difficult time periods that you experienced, or one of the most difficult projects that you experienced, or one of the most difficult things that you've overcome." We look for the difficulty because that tells us the true measure of how we're performing. We often perform at our best as humans through adversity in one way or another. So this helps us to quickly center in on an area that's going to help us identify something about our strengths. Right? Okay, so when we're there, here's the further line of questioning. Okay, when you think about that situation, what happened? What caused you to be successful? And then we started unpacking what caused you to be successful. And I think you can do the same on paper. What caused you to be successful? What strengths did you use that allowed you to be successful? And then we can literally get to the point where we start listing those out. Now here's what usually happens. Usually what happens is, people initially will say, "Oh, you know what? It's absolutely my futuristic. It's my futuristic strength. Yep, I totally see that. That's what I did." And then as coaches, we say, you know, it seems also like you were using your woo to be able to help the people get by and you were using your strategic thinking about the project in advance, and you were using yours and we go through the list and help reflect that back to people. Now, the great thing is sometimes you can do this on paper by yourself, you can start to list out what were the strengths that were involved that allowed you to be successful. Okay, now, this is advanced, because this gives us a whole different pattern set. This gives us a whole different patterns that because now we can start to attach language and start to see how signature strengths are functioning, not just individual strengths. It allows us to see where's the cluster of strengths, if you will, that are allowing you to create success in a variety of different roles, different situations, different projects, different outcomes, whatever it is. And the thing that this does for you is help to start connecting back that recognition of why you're successful with your individual strengths, and then how they work together in order to create a result for you. That's where it starts to get really fun.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:33

Okay, a couple of warnings on this, though, this is also an advanced exercise, because there's a danger here that you can do this work and still not actually be able to see where you're using your strengths, or how you might use them in the future. If that is the case, one of the things I would encourage you to do is try not to get discouraged at that point. Instead, try to partner with someone. Partner with a highly unbiased friend who's really good at this stuff or a mentor or a coach reach out to us, this is something that we'll do StrengthsFinder or strength signature strengths reviews, too. If you're already working with us to make a career change, this is something you could talk to your lead coach about and figure out if it fits into helping you with your goal and trajectory. If you're working with us to help create meaningful work and thrive in an already ideal fit, then that's where we're already likely to be working on this too. Either way, get somebody else involved that can help you see past your blind spots. What we're looking for in this case, I just want to share it again, is we're looking for where you have your strengths show up and what combinations of those strengths are appearing again and again.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:46

Okay, let's talk about the neutral strengths exercise. One of the things that we also experience is that people have trouble with understanding what their strengths mean for them. What does this mean for me, like I have these strengths, I have this language. What does this mean for me? One of our clients went through StrengthsFinder, and said, "Sure, I recognize these things in myself. I get that, yep, this is me all the things." But embracing the value of those strengths is very different. In this case, the way that he would describe his strengths, there would be a judgment that he would place, he would assign a positive or negative. Now in reality strengths, in some ways, are just a tool that you have at your disposal. They are neither positive nor negative. But as we already said, there can be a dark side or a shadow side to your strengths if you're working against them, versus a positive side when you're learning to work with your strengths, and learning to make your strengths work for you. So think about it as a tool, much the same as like money for example. I know this is a weird analogy. But money is a tool, it's not good or bad on its own, it just helps to achieve good or bad things. By itself is just a tool. And strengths are sort of the same way. Yes, they are the biggest representation of you or the truest representation of you when you're using them. But it's still just a tool. It can be used and harnessed either way for positive or negative. The other thing that we see happen is when people are assigning those positive or negative, it's usually coming from an emotional place where they've had feedback in one way or another, typically about the negative side of their strengths, and how that shown up. And that is reinforced over time that who they are because remember strengths are the true sense of you, that who they are is not great. And that then creates this negative belief and negative bias in which is sometimes difficult to overturn. Okay, so one of the ways that we often work through that, and I should be clear, we're not therapists, sometimes this can require element that is most useful through therapy. But many times we can work through that with a variety of exercises. This particular exercise, the neutral summary of strengths is taking your, we might take your Clifton Strengths as an example because we have starter language, and then we'll have people go through their strengths, each individual one, and then rewrite them in their own words, without judgment. That's the neutral part. Rewrite it in your own words without judgment. So if I have strategic, if I'm using Clifton Strengths Finder terms, if I have strategic, I'm gonna write out literally what that means to me. And I'm gonna go back over my language and remove out the parts that are positively charged, or negatively charged. Ending with a neutral summary of our strengths.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:53

Now, here's something that we're looking for, as coaches. We know, people are starting to get to the point where they can adapt this into their world, once they're taking ownership over it. The way that ownership looks, is being able to put it in their own words and have their own level of understanding around it with their own words. The reason that's important is because until we see clients, and we see you being able to apply it in your own words, then often you haven't gotten to the level of base in which it allows you to then apply it into the rest of your life. You can often do it in small ways, for sure. But really, it becomes very, very different and the level of application dramatically increases with your level of ownership over those words. It's strange, and there's many reasons for that. That said, that's one of the things that we see. Now, one of the other things that we see, too, that has a tendency to hold people back is they feel like they are being selfish when they describe what they want or how they want to utilize their strengths. So often, we find ourselves giving the advice that you need to be more selfish. It's not that they're actually being selfish. If you're worried about that in the first place. If something feels selfish to you, chances are high that you're more predisposed to not be selfish at all. Like if you're paying attention to that, if that's something you're worried about, then chances are high, you are often swung away for the other way where you're not anywhere close to selfish. So if we're telling you to be selfish, then what that does is it brings you closer to the center where you're still not being selfish at all. But if you're going to be able to operate in the truest sense of you, that is going to require doing some things for you so then you can better serve other people.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:53

All right, let me go over another specific example of how we might break down some of the most difficult projects or situations that you've worked on that came out successful in the end. I'm going to do this on the fly. So let's go back to the idea of the most difficult projects, most difficult situations. One example that occurs. Let's go way back to my HR days here for a second. One of the things that I was tasked with when I became an HR director at, it was actually a food company. And the first biggest challenge that was really a struggle was they were, they had like 30% turnover. It's like 38% turnover. It was crazy. It was ridiculous, like a lot of turnover, right? Year after year. And they couldn't solve this thing. Actually, 38% was an improvement from some of the previous times. So this was incredibly difficult. I remember, not necessarily being overly stressed, but I remember working a lot. And it really, really stretched me. And so if I think about that, I list down that situation. Okay, that time period, because I took that, and the outcome was over about a year period took it from 38% to I think it was like 21% turnover, so almost cut it in half. And what did it take? Like what were the strengths that went into that? Well, if I think about what had to happen, I had to continuously recognize where the loss was happening. I had to continuously recognize, like, what was causing the turnover. So that was pulling from my strategic side. And recognizing that one of the things that we could do was hire the right people. For the most part, I could see that strategically, we were hiring the wrong people. So if we hired more of the right people on the root side and put our efforts there, that would over the course of a few months, stop some of the bleeding. And then another thing that required for me, I mentioned that futuristic part earlier, but I had to be able to look ahead, because if I were just really focused on things like training and just really focused on the shorter impact, instead of the long game, then wouldn't have been able to see that, "Hey, this is something where we can make a fix." And it's going to come down dramatically over time to the point where you know, eventually we got it down closer to 10%. And that requires that futuristic portion, being able to look a year and a half or two years ahead and see what might be the outcomes. What could we envision here? What could that look like? And then it had to be able to utilize generating a lot of different ideas, and then be able to test those ideas quickly, which pulled from some of my ideation strength if we're continuing to use Clifton Strengthsfinder knowledge. Okay, so then I can go back and say, Okay, well, it's the combination of those three that really actually helped. And really, there's more here, but let's just go with the three. Now, I can recognize that, okay, that's one combination that shows up. And I can go in and repeat this again. What I find is that almost anytime I personally am being successful, it really is that combination of those three strengths, working in tandem over and over again that just shows up again, and again and again and again. So I can start to pay attention to that and say, "Okay, well, what are ways that I can develop that in the future?" That again is the feedback loop I mentioned earlier, and how you can use feedback from situations that you handled really well, to reiterate the combination of strengths you're using at times when you feel like you're operating at your best.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:35

Okay, we've covered a lot. So I want to give you some specific action items to take away from this episode. Because, as it turns out, knowledge is fun, it can be amazing, it can be entertainment, but that's what it is if you don't put it to use. So you can find the links to all of what we talked about in the show notes. But first and foremost, if you're starting out with strengths, I would encourage you to take the Clifton Strengths Finder assessment. We'll link you to get access to it on our site. It's a pretty tiny fee to be able to take it. And it's gonna give you a first version of your strengths verbiage so that you can take that, begin to understand it, work with it, and figure out what is in fact true for you. We also went through the past roles exercise, neutral strengths exercise, and difficult situation exercise, and I highly recommend completing all of them because you'll come out with a much clearer picture of your signature strengths. But the first one I would say to complete is that pastoral exercise. Do it solo. And then secondarily, after you do the basic version of the past roles exercise, which you'll be able to find in the show notes, then you're ready for the advanced version. Keep in mind with the advanced version, you probably want to do it with somebody else– a friend, a mentor, a career coach, someone that's going to help you make more sense of it. Because it truly has advanced this difficult to see what you're not seeing because of those natural strengths blinders. Okay. Finally, I want you to begin to take ownership. Ownership of the language that you use for your signature strengths, and what truly makes you, "you". So this is where you're going to be able to use that neutral strength exercise where you begin to define it. It being your signature strengths, in your own words, your own verbiage, and what that specifically means to you. This is the point where you can graduate into using and understanding and articulating your signature strengths. If you're already in role, by the way, that's a great fit for you, that's going to be a little bit easier. And if you're not, it's not that you can't do it, but it will allow you to be able to, it'll be a little bit more difficult, it allows you to develop your strengths at a more rapid rate. And if you use them more frequently, pay attention and you'll be able to make adjustments. You can also do this outside of work too. The other areas where you find that you might already be well aligned, and be able to utilize your strengths there. The same observations will be apparent, it doesn't necessarily have to be in your work. These exercises are work that the majority of the world won't do. It's not easy, but it is worth it. Defining your signature strengths will help you figure out how you can work and function best in all areas of your life. So all this work will make everything else much much much easier, if not more enjoyable. Pretty cool, right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:37

Hey, if you've been listening to our episodes here at Happen To Your Career, and you want to make an intentional career change to much more meaningful work and have it neatly laid out into an organized framework, well, guess what? We actually have that available for you in the Happen To Your Career book. It's available on Amazon, audible, anywhere else where you get your books. You'll learn about the five hidden obstacles stopping your career change, how to figure out what truly makes you happy with your career, and what brings you more happy more often. And more importantly, how to transition to a much more fulfilling career and life. You can find the book on Amazon, audible, anywhere where books are sold. By the way, people are particularly loving the audiobook, which you can access right now in seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:31

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up for you next week, right here on Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 2 37:38

I tried to do that on my own and realized very, very quickly that I was going nowhere fast. The job searches were pretty much leading me. I was very overwhelmed. And I've scattered throughout my searches, not really knowing where to focus or how to focus.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:54

Over the years, we've shown you a lot of career changes that most people would consider impossible. We know from being on the inside of these, that it can be really challenging to think about how on earth someone would make this career change from one drastically different occupation to another or how they might go and get what most people would consider to be an impossible dream job, and many, many other things between. So that's one of the reasons why we take great pains to show you how it works from the inside. For example, how does someone go from identifying a list of organizations that they might want to work for, and getting an opportunity with their number one company on that list?

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:44

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Nick Neves 00:01

I didn't want the success of my job to be determined by things that I didn't want to do or wasn't comfortable with.

Introduction 00:13

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:37

A long time ago, I used to work for Target. And I did Human Resource Management and Leadership for Target. And it was a pretty wonderful opportunity. I love the company. They took great care of me. Much of the leadership training that I got, and have to this day, came from Target putting time and money, and effort into me. So I'm forever appreciative of that. Also, at the same time, I was working for them and they decided that they wanted to move their HR that supported stores more and more and more into the stores and more into the standard retail environment. Now, that was exactly the right decision for them. But it really wasn't that great for me, to be honest. And that's something I have seen over and over and over again, where people go through, they get a job, it's amazing opportunity, and then the company changes or it evolves into something else and it's no longer amazing. It's not even awesome. It's the opposite of that. That happens.

Nick Neves 01:56

I would ask them, like, what does a successful person look like in this role? What personality traits fit a type of person in this role? That confirms to me that I am moving in the right direction, and looking for the right jobs, and I can be successful and build my confidence back up.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:10

That's Nick. In less than two years, his customer success role began to change to, well, being almost all a sales role. And as we begin to uncover his strengths and define what he really wanted in life, he knew that he had to make a change. But how do you move from a role that's no longer ideal to one that actually uses your strengths? All right, well, spoiler alert, Nick does a really nice job of this. And I want you to listen for how that took place, how that actually happened. But let's start out with Nick explaining here, how he went from uncovering his strengths to making connections and having conversations to learn what roles could fit him and finally, landing in a role that does play to his strengths.

Nick Neves 02:54

I was in a job working in customer success, which for those who don't know, it's kind of like customer support with, like, a little bit of sales mixed in, and was doing this job, it was kind of morphing more into a sales role, which is just not for me. So..

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:06

What was that for you? I'm super curious.

Nick Neves 03:08

My own personality, I don't think you know, I'm more of an introverted kind of behind-the-scenes, analytical thinker. I like doing more operational stuff versus just hammering phones all day, filling your day with talking to people. You know, I didn't want the success of my job to be determined by things that just I didn't want to do, or wasn't comfortable with. That's why I, you know, this isn't sustainable for me. And there was a couple other things too, with just the way the company was, the culture. And there's a multitude of different reasons. But that was the biggest reason for me, it just did not feel like the right fit. Even it was confirmed with me and with my manager, kind of yearly reviews and things like that. She's like, "No, you're a great team player, people love you on the team, but like really need you to be more like this person." And she compared me to, like, our top salesperson. I'm like, I will never be like that person ever. So I was, like, if they want me to be this type of person, then they hired the wrong person, and that I was okay with that. Because at first when I was doing the job, my confidence took it. And I definitely, that resonated with, you know, a lot of your previous podcast guests, I want to talk about that. And I was like, I totally understand where they're coming from, where you think you're just not doing a good job and all that and you realize, okay, it's really, this isn't working out. And I could totally excel doing something that's more of a natural fit. So that's where I started, I was into customer success, and then ultimately led me to work in finance. So I can kind of get into the transition of that because I know it's kind of a complete one.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:29

Well, let me ask you first about that stage where you were in this customer success type role. And clearly, it was outside of your, not just comfort zone, but also in many ways, it is requiring you to be a ton of who you are not and also didn't want to be. But I think as you mentioned, so many people will be in that situation and they will say "I should be able to do this or I.." they end up beating up on themselves, in one way or another, and impacts confidence. So what allowed you to get to the point where you realized that you were okay with it? Because I also heard you say, "Hey, I was okay with it at some point." But what took place for you to get to that point where you realize, "Look, it's just the wrong fit."?

Nick Neves 05:13

Yeah, that's a great question. And just putting myself back into that scenario. That's exactly how I felt first. I was in the job for maybe two to three years. First year, I was definitely beating myself up, thinking I'm not doing a good job here. You know, that feeling continued. But I think the turning point was when I started really sitting down and putting in the time and effort, figure out why this wasn't a good fit. And I took... It was even before I found Happen To Your Career, I took the Myers-Briggs test, which was super helpful. Pairing that with the personality tests and strength tests that you guys do as well. And then I ultimately stumbled upon you guys and did some of the 8-day mini course and all that stuff. That free exercise kind of put everything into perspective for me and made me realize there are strengths and weaknesses to a person. And sometimes it's just a square peg in a round hole, right? And that just slowly, it wasn't like an overnight thing, right? It definitely took some weeks to kind of figure that out. And then as I continued with the job, like I said, I had those meetings with my manager, he was telling me he wanted me to become this person. I knew I wasn't going to become that person. So that's when it really clicked for me. And I was just like, "Okay, I should be able to do a different job." And even further along, through the career change bootcamp program, you always have a little bit of doubt here and there as you're going through, right, especially at the beginning, but as I did the interviewing process of other people in other roles departments that I was interested in, and I would ask them, like, "What does a successful person look like in this role? What personality traits fit that type of person in this role?" That confirmed to me that I am moving in the right direction and looking for the right jobs, and I can be successful and build my confidence back up.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:48

Let me ask you about that. Just for a little bit of background for everyone else, one of the things that will often do is help people design many experiments where you sometimes are having conversations, and I think that's probably the part that you're referring to, and where you are looking at a variety of different roles and trying to confirm that those might be potentially a direction for you. So what were some of those roles that you were looking at they were talking to people about at the time? Just curious.

Nick Neves 07:16

It started off very broadly. But then eventually got a little more niche. I actually connected with someone else who is in the program, actually. And he worked in accounting previously. And turns out, we had a lot of the same strengths. So I was like, he'd probably be a great person to talk to, get a perspective on, you know, using the job, he has the same strengths, it would be a good fit for me. I kind of honed in on accounting, and really matched up with a lot of my strengths. And I liked the structure. I like working with numbers, all that stuff like routine. So going off of that, trusting my strengths and saying, "Okay, I think this is a good place to start and kind of proceed that." That was the main role that I was really looking at. As I went along, I realized I had to do a slight pivot where, you know, accounting, it's tough to get into if you don't have the degree and all that stuff. So I was kind of hitting roadblocks there. But I was able to find a way to kind of get my foot in the door, almost like a stepping stone into accounting, which is the role I'm in now, which is called order operations. It's got a lot of different names in different companies. But basically, you're the middleman between sales and accounting and finance. So it was great tip– my background working in sales and customer support. But I'm kind of moving away to a different side of the house that I want to move into. So our long-winded question probably went off topic there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:27

This is great. Because a couple of things that aren't always obvious when we talk about these types of transitions because you've done a great job making this type of pivot. And I think so many people would not even realize that it's possible to make that severe of a change, I'm gonna call that severe for just a second. Severe in the best possible way. Severe sounds sometimes like a negative word, but I mean it in a really, really positive way that is different than almost 180 types of change. And one of the ways that you have found to do that is by heavily leveraging not just your strengths, but also your past experiences too. And I think that gets so undervalued as a portion of this process because I think so many people hear these types of podcasts or they recognize the need to do something different. And then think, "Well, I need to make this 180 type of change. I'm gonna be a scuba diver." Or something like that, like, it's gonna be that drastic change in one way or another. And that tendency is to say, "Okay, I'm going to, like, magic it to happen." And that's not how it works in reality. And in reality, it happens much more like you have done where we are heavily leveraging those things that you're bringing to the table. In this case, you had some amazing experiences in both sales even though that's not what you wanted to do forever, but also customer success. And also a lot of the pieces that come along with that, the skill sets that come along with that too. And a really nice job.

Nick Neves 09:56

Thank you. No, I was just gonna say before I forget, that really reminds me of, I didn't really realize it at the time, like you said, you're making that big change, and you're like, I don't even know if I have the transferable skills or all that. And number one, I help talking to people figure out what are the transferable skills, you know, the interview is huge, it was so helpful, just to get a sense of everything, you know. I actually talk to people in the jobs that make you realize, okay, you're just looking at job descriptions all day, like, it's kind of just monotonous. And then you kind of hit a wall there. So for me, I was really able to figure out, okay, I don't have the accounting background. But I definitely have transferable skills, work with Excel a ton, and I've done process improvements, which is big in that field, in my job. And that's what I enjoyed doing that. So once you started talking to people, you realize, okay, this is a little more doable than I thought. And I ended up getting a lot of compliments from people, even if I didn't end up getting the job, they were like, "Your resume looks like an accounting resume, I'm surprised you haven't had any experience in that field." So that was a good confirmation there that I was doing it the right way, and ultimately worked out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:59

That is awesome. I want to dig into a few of those pieces here for just a minute because it did ultimately work out whatever we're talking about, like nine plus months or so of work to make it ultimately workout. And you mentioned some of those conversations that you were having. Very often, when we think about making a change, depending on what people decide they need and is what is most valuable to them, you know, what their goal is, and making this change that can often dictate whether you focus on roles first, or whether you focus on organizations or environments first. For you, it was much more about roles. And so you started having some of those conversations. But I'm curious, could you describe a couple of those conversations and what those actually looked like, what led up to them, how you got to chat with a couple of those people, and what even talked about during some of those conversations.

Nick Neves 11:49

Going back, I definitely remember struggling with the roles versus organizations debacle. And I thought, well, maybe I can do both, I can look for roles within industries that are interesting to me. You know, I was looking, I'm a big sports fan. I love golf. So there's a couple golf manufacturing companies and sports manufacturing companies around Boston. I was looking at those. And I ultimately decided that, for me, I think the role was just more important just because maybe it was the nature of the job itself. Like with accounting and finance, you're doing a kind of finance in the back office, and it's kind of just that, right? I think if someone was moving into, like, customer success or something else like that, where you're kind of on the front lines of the industry, you might look for companies to put an emphasis on that. So I think it really depends on the role. So for me through conversations with people, it didn't really seem like it was that different industry to industry, I didn't want to move to a massive company. But in terms of, like, the industry, I was like, I'm kind of industry agnostic at this point, that kind of started there figured that out. And like I said, talking to people through the informational interviews, and kind of open that up. And even also doing some accountability groups at the time, I don't know if you guys are calling them from different now, but being able to talk to other people who are going through the career change process on the call, we were able to bounce ideas back and forth, when I would explain to them, "Hey, I'm kind of struggling with this. Do I go with company roles? You know, go for other industries?" So they were able to kind of help me talk through that and ultimately decided that role was kind of the way to go for me. So that was another helpful thing, too, is to have not only my coach but also just the community itself is very helpful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:27

That's amazing. It makes me really happy for so many different reasons. I think it's probably useful to acknowledge here that this progression, I'm going to call it a progression, is always so much easier when you're looking backwards. You and I were chatting at the very beginning of our conversation. I think before we even hit the record button about how you were trying to get yourself back into the mindset of what life was like a year ago at this time when you were starting to really think about making this change and starting to really move on that. But it's been a year since that point in time. And it was definitely no small amount of work. And one of the things I heard you say earlier was, "Hey, I had a conversation with another person who was working with HTYC and they had a past background in accounting. And that's what led to me affirming that this could be something that I take a really close look at." And then that led to other conversations that you had, where you were taking tidbits away for different types of roles, which led to the next thing, which led to the next thing, which led to the next thing, and ultimately, only then after nine months of breadcrumbs, if you want to call it that, following each of those little bit breadcrumbs led to the actual opportunity. So the question that I wanted to ask you there is, that's a lot of different pieces to be able to make this happen for yourself and you've done a great job with that. But what were some of the hardest parts of that process for you?

Nick Neves 14:53

I will say what definitely helped me was the whole structure of it. You know, having the modules to go through, you kind of look ahead, you knew what to expect, I mean, not totally knew what to expect in terms of the program and what you were going to be working on. So I really liked the structure. So I'd recommend people if you like having that structure, it definitely helps. But there's parts where it sounds like it was a seamless transition, right? And now I'm here a year later, and I have a new job. But I'd say that the hardest parts were, like we discussed before grappling with the, where do I even focus on. Do I focus on roles? Do I focus on industries? Do I focus on companies like, you know, some people might be looking to move, or they just don't care about location, that throws a whole another wrench into everything. So I think the way you guys do it were, you kind of talked about building that frame, right, and putting the pieces of the puzzle together. Another thing too that was really helpful was building out your kind of life profile, if you will. So you kind of put like parameters around what you're looking for to make everything kind of less daunting, right? So you kind of have indicators or parameters of what you want to look for. So you're not casting such a wide net that you're overwhelmed. So that at first it was overwhelming, but it was able to kind of hone in from there. And then I think a little bit further down the road once, you know, I started interviewing and all that, that's, you know, you deal with rejection a lot too. You feel like you found a really good fit. And you made a really good case of why you're able to make this change and why you fit in, you know, you might not have the traditional background and you do everything you can, and you might not get a job.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:26

Was there an example of where that happened for you?

Nick Neves 16:28

Yeah, a couple of times. You know, there was kind of some entry-level accounting jobs where I was able to network my way into those jobs. So way more effective, I think, than just going on job boards, right? So I was like I already have in here and that person, whether they're just being polite, or whatever, maybe they think you're a great fit, and they pass along your resume. I worked with my coach, you know, on my resume to tailor it to each and every job that I was doing– tailoring my interview prep and my cover letters, and all that stuff. I felt super prepared and very confident that I would at least get a callback for a lot of the jobs, right. A lot of them did, which looking back, it's like, well, you're moving into a totally new field where you don't have accounting degrees and all that stuff. So I get it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:12

Well, I think there's another element there too. I would argue that that actually worked out so much better for you. Even the rejection sucks, like that is where you ended up, at least from the outside looking in appears to be a far better match than starting in beginning accounting. Because you bring a lot more to the table, you have so much more experience and skill sets than just starting from the beginning. So that actually is allowing the process to work even though it doesn't always feel good in the moment.

Nick Neves 17:43

Yeah, and I think at the time, I don't even know the job, and now was a job. So I was really just searching for kind of those entry level accounting job. Like, maybe I'll have to take a pay cut, I really don't want to, there's other kinds of entry level accounting jobs that a lot of people were frequently recommending accounts payable, accounts receivable, and just stuff like that. And I was like, I would be willing to kind of grind it out and do those jobs, but it's part of my life profile, if you will, was that I wanted to be making the same amount of money or more, which is kind of what you're gonna put in the effort to go through this whole career change process– you want to be able to have that kind of same salary. So especially in Boston, where things are crazy. But yeah, I didn't even know that was a job. Through my conversations with people, I found out that, hey, this could be a good fit to kind of make that transition. So again, like talking to people and networking, even though it can be uncomfortable at times, people were way friendlier than I was expecting, even just random people on LinkedIn. I was stalking so many people on LinkedIn, sending so many messages. And a lot of people who did respond were super helpful, you know, I'd never met them before, we went and jumped on the phone. And being able to do all that while working remotely was definitely helpful. But definitely recommend reaching out to people as much as you can, if you're going through the process.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:57

What did you find was very effective for you personally, which might not be effective for everybody? But in your situation, what did you find was really effective as you were reaching out to people and having those conversations, particularly in the conversations themselves? What advice would you give people that worked well for you?

Nick Neves 19:18

Yeah, I would say at first it's especially when you're finding companies where there are open jobs that you want to apply to, you're like, you're very excited to try and get your foot in the door and apply those right away, right? And I did a bad job of this at first where I was reaching out to people saying like, "Hey, I saw there was an open job here and I just would love to kind of learn more about it." That just reeks of like, hey, like, get this job for me. Right? But when I was reaching out to people, you know, treat it more as like, I want to learn about your experience and really just have a conversation that people are more willing to open up and talk about than just help a random person who's trying to use them or wants to just get a job. I think eventually the conversation ultimately kind of lives that way, which is nice, but it shouldn't start that way. Especially in the beginning when I really was just doing informational interviews just to learn about different jobs. You kind of build your network as you go anyway. So you can always go back to those people. If you see openings, it makes it a little easier to reach out and apply to those jobs.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:17

That's so interesting, the point that you made about if you are just pursuing a job, often that is a turnoff, where if you are genuinely interested in the other person to learn about it, then that very often leads to opportunities. The hard part about that, though, I think, for so many people is you can't fake that. Like if you get into that conversation, like everyone has BS meters that are going to go off like crazy, "This dude just wants the job. I'm done with this."

Nick Neves 20:49

Yeah, I think that you're right, that was a tough thing to kind of fake. For me, I was just enjoying the process, and really just enjoyed talking to people, and everyone had a different perspective on things. And I always learn something from every conversation that I had. So for me, I was excited to talk to these people and great if I could steer it in the direction I want to go in, all the better. But I think at the very least you still learn some things that you can pick up along the way. So it's kind of, that was able to help me kind of get in that mindset.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:17

Very cool. Okay, so let me ask you this. If you had to go back and make this change, again, is there anything that you would do differently in the process for yourself?

Nick Neves 21:30

Oh, that's a good question. I'm not totally sure. Maybe at the time when I was kind of looking for different roles, different opportunities, like maybe I left some different jobs or roles that are on the table, that could have been a really good fit, I kind of you know, I wanted to be kind of laser focused on one role. And that's just me personally. So I was like, okay, accounting looks good, it may not be perfect, but I think it matches a lot of the skill sets and strengths that I have. It matches my life profile, like I just checked all the boxes, like, I'm just gonna go with it and look for this job. Like some people, maybe you can look at multiple different roles or job fields at once. So maybe I left something that was a really good fit, and maybe I just didn't see it. But I remember having this conversation with my coach, too, at the time where I was worried about missing something. And eventually, you just got to move forward with something, right? You can't just have paralysis by analysis, which is definitely something that I suffer from at times. So I had to realize that and that's another opportunity where my coach helped me out, you know, maybe that's a regret. But also, I won't get too bogged down by that stuff. Because that could really stonewall your efforts to move forward.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:39

What do you feel like are, now that we're on the other end of this, and you have a different perspective, because a year ago at this time, we had talked about you were in probably a far less healthy place mentally because the role and what was expected of you was such a not great fit. Such an opposite of alignment in some very specific ways. But now that you are in a better fit, what would you describe as the differences for people?

Nick Neves 23:12

The biggest difference, take this job really matches what I'm looking for in a working environment. I don't want to be inundated with meetings all day and having to be on all the time socially. Like I said, I'm more of an introverted person. So for me kind of being heads down in your work. Doing kind of all the behind-the-scenes work is really what I preferred. So that's a big change. And the things that I felt like I was good at just wasn't being recognized at my own job. Like I said, I was doing some process improvements, and things like that, just to kind of boost efficiency and all that. And there was, like, an operational side of the job. But then it was a client facing side of the job. And I really gravitated towards the operational side and felt like I did a good job of improving that part of the job and all that but that wasn't being recognized as vital to the job or bringing success to it. So…

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:00

Well, it sounds like the emphasis was on the client facing side of the... that's really what that organization or that set of people needed in one way or another.

Nick Neves 24:08

Exactly. And now I'm able to, to kind of focus on those strengths with my new job. I didn't know all this stuff at the time, but definitely taking the strengths tests and all that stuff really helped me because I think you really know what you're good at, and what you don't like and all that, but taking the strengths test through you guys really helped me put everything into perspective and put it into words. And one thing that I really enjoyed about the process was you take the strengths test, and then you go through and kind of highlight things that stand out to you. So that's really what helped me hone in on accounting in the first place is highlighting some of the words like reliability, routine, all these different things that stood out to me, like, I enjoy that aspect of the job and I feel like I'm good at it. That was very helpful. Because again, that's also kind of a daunting thing too. It's like okay, now I have this strength test, but it's like not spitting out a job for me, right? I gotta go ahead and kind of match that to what to look for. So that process was super helpful too.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:59

You know what's really interesting, though, is a year later, you can now easily articulate what it is that you need. And I think that's such a cool thing because you're going to be able to continue to build on that for the rest of your life, where, you know, I asked you, and just off the cuff, at the beginning of this, you're like, "Well, you know, here's what I wasn't getting. Here's now what I need. I needed this routine, I am more of an introvert and I need ABCD and E", and you can just rattle that off now. And I think that that is a testament, and that doesn't just happen through the process. Yes, yes, we have that built into our particular process for career change. However, it takes a lot of work from you, and understanding about yourself to be able to get to the point where now a year later, it's just like, "Oh yeah, obviously, here's what I need– boom, boom, boom, boom, boom." So that's super cool because I know what goes into that. But I think the power there that you made the point of is, you first have to be able to do that and be able to recognize it in a way that you can articulate it to other people or the outside world. Otherwise, the opportunities that come much later on just simply don't happen. If you don't get to step one, you don't get to step seven.

Nick Neves 26:07

Yeah, for sure. It wasn't, like you said, it wasn't an overnight thing. It definitely took some practice on my part, some kind of discipline to put in the time and work to figure all this stuff out, you know, be able to articulate it the way where I can now. And again, my coach was super helpful going through almost like roleplay, if you will, where you can kind of talk through it. I was so bad at it at first, but put it into practice with his help, and with the structured strengths tests and profiles and modules that you guys have, it was just helpful to kind of help me frame it for myself, too. So I would say, it was a combination of everything really, that was able to get me to where I'm at.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:45

Well, I am so glad to hear it. And before we finish up here, is there any other parting words of either wisdom or advice that you'd like to share with someone who is finding themselves back in that situation that you were in a year ago? Or like, "Okay, clearly, I need to make a change. Clearly, this is not a great fit. But what the heck do I do about it from here?" What would you tell that person who's in that place right now?

Nick Neves 27:12

Yeah, I would say thinking back to about a year ago when I was very unhappy in my job and everything, you know, you have to make a change, but you're not really sure what direction to move in. And maybe you do have a sense of what direction you want to move in, but it's just not really sure how to get there. For me, like I said, I really liked the structure of everything. So that was super helpful. But it's not so structured where it's like, someone likes to kind of do things at their own pace and all that. I think it's very flexible. And I know you guys are good at working with people's different styles and customizing things the way people work. So that's great. So that was a big thing for me. And even if I think this program would be really helpful for someone who's looking to make even more of a drastic change. Like if you're looking to make some, if you're looking to move to a very niche job that it's difficult to kind of get into that role because I know talking with some of the other people in the program, they were looking for, like, very niche specific jobs in certain industries. That's one coach would be super helpful. And it was even helpful for me who was still in the corporate world kind of making a pivot, but nothing, like, super drastic. So I would say no matter what boat you're in, really, I think having the help and guidance is helpful, right? Having the community to fall back on bounce ideas off of people. All that is just, it was all very helpful in the end. So I would say those are the kind of the big takeaways for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:37

Hey, if you love this story where we talk through and walk you through step by step how someone got to more meaningful work, then you'll absolutely love our audiobook– Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. I even got to narrate it, which was so fun. And something that I really enjoyed doing and will definitely do for future books as well. But it also contains firsthand accounts from career changers on how they made the move to more meaningful work, just like we include on the podcast here. And actually, it's been called the best audiobook experience ever by some reviewers. You can find those reviews, and the book itself on Audible, Amazon, or any other place where books are sold. Seriously, just pause this right now and go over to Amazon or Audible or wherever you want and download it. You can be reading it and started on your career change in literally seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:31

Now, here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week right here on Happen to Your Career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:37

If there's one thing that I've seen in the last 10 years or so is that our readers, listeners, clients love the idea of strengths. Love the idea that there's a unique value that we can offer to the world in the form of our strengths. But here's the funny thing, when it comes down to identifying and then using our strengths, well, that's where it gets much more complicated. That's where we find there are really, really large mental barriers standing in the way of you and what we call signature strengths.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:16

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.