612: Can Less Job Applications = More Offers?

Stephanie Drumright 00:01

I was so worried about not getting a job in time for my visa expiring, that I thought, "Oh, I need to go out there and pretty much blast as many organizations as I can in order to make sure I'm optimizing the touch points with different companies."

Introduction 00:24

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:49

What if I told you that applying to fewer jobs could actually increase your chances of landing the role that you want?When a job search gets urgent, there's almost this instinctive reaction to throw everything at the wall and begin to see what sticks. We convince ourselves that applying to more jobs in more industries are going to absolutely increase our chances. It seems like a numbers game. But here's the thing, we have helped thousands of people absolutely transform their careers in the last 12 years. And what we've seen is that's not true. Even though this pattern shows up and it's a human thing to do, the more targeted that you get, the fewer jobs that you actually have to apply for, and the more likely that you're going to be able to do so in a quality way, and the more likely you're going to be able to land a role that you're actually aiming for as opposed to just anything.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:44

That's Stephanie Drumright. Stephanie is now the head of operations at a successful FinTech company. But it wasn't too long ago where she was racing against a ticking clock because she was laid off, and that meant that, since she was on a visa, a work visa, on a different country, at any moment, she could have a 60 day deadline begin where she needed to secure a new role or face leaving the country. Panic set in, and she did what many of us would do to cast the whitest possible net, applying to 145 different jobs, only to face multiple rejections and crickets. But something pretty fascinating started happening when Stephanie narrowed her focus. Instead of applying everywhere, she got really specific about the role that she was going after–what she wanted–and began building relationships and networking with intention. Now the result here was multiple job offers, two specifically within a week. And her journey perfectly illustrates what we've seen with thousands of clients. Getting hyper specific about what you want almost always leads to better results than casting a super wide net. And Stephanie's story isn't just about landing a job, it's about resilience, protecting your mental health during uncertainty, and trusting and knowing that what you want is a faster path to success by far. Okay, so here she is discussing what led her to possibly losing her work visa and being unable to move forward in the country she wanted to be in.

Stephanie Drumright 01:44

And it just felt like something was not quite working, and something was not quite there. And I really attribute that to this net that I was so broadly casting. And I think that as I was having conversations with people about what I want to do, and I was really starting to think about the type of environment I wanted to be in, it was still, oh, so many possibilities.

Stephanie Drumright 03:52

My background is that I had joined a company, kind of very early on, right out of university, and I joined this organization both for what it did as a tech organization, it was remote working software, as well as the opportunities that it was going to potentially have where I could live and work abroad. And within my first sort of year and a half that actually came to fruition and moved to Dublin where I spent a couple of years there, and the company supported me and moving over there. And then in 2015, I sort of built a business case to move myself over into London where more of my team was based. And in doing that, you know, for me, where I landed in London was primarily just I was supposed to be on assignment. And what that meant was just sort of two years based in London, and I could extend, I knew I could extend my visa, but I knew I had a cap at five years. So as it turns out, within my first year, I absolutely fell in love with London and just felt like this was absolutely my place, and I also made a name for myself within the organization by being kind of the person who is focused internationally in an operations and business systems capacity. But at the end of the five years, I had to actually leave the country, and that was a huge disappointment. I was on the right type of visa, actually, in order to stay in the United Kingdom. So I had to go through the process of packing up all my stuff, saying goodbye to all my great friends, and leaving. But I had already established with my organization that my goal was to spend the year I needed to back in the States, only to then return to the United Kingdom and get on the right visa, and then stay here for the long term. And then I got back to the UK, and it was quite a stressful time where, you know, in the roles that I was in, there was a lot of movement and transition within the organization, and it, you know, it just sort of ended up being a little bit more challenging, I think, to find my footing once I was really back in London and really kind of owning my role in the way I wanted to. I had some really great leaders throughout the time in which I was based at this company, and my particular leader at the time, the VP of workplace transformation. She and I were working on a lot of things around my career advancement and how I could move up into a director role. And, you know, the kind of the qualities and the skill set that I'd identified and that she'd identified would be things I needed to work on, and we were really closely working on a path which is exciting for me. Unfortunately, she moved on for the organization, and that left me and my team a little bit in limbo. And so this really kind of brings it all back around where at the beginning of 2024, me and my whole team and a significant majority of the organization were actually made redundant. So I found myself, you know, two and a half years back in London, and I need to get to the five years, and I am, you know, there's a garden leaf set up here. But basically that meant that I sort of had three months until my organization would formally inform the government that I was no longer employed and they were no longer sponsoring my visa.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:34

So at that moment, what did that feel like?

Stephanie Drumright 07:38

Yeah, it was horrible. I will say it was one of those things where, because I'd been working at this company for 12 and a half years, and I had put so much time and effort and just love for the business into everything that I was doing. And I think I had, as I mentioned, just made a name for myself. I think, you know, I was seen as a real go to person around the organization, and I think it was tough, because I think I'm generally a very intuitive person, and I think I have the ability to kind of know when something's not quite right, and I think that I should have listened to that intuition earlier on when certain signs were indicating that me and my team might not have the strongest landing spot when our leader was then exiting the organization. And I think that for me, I look back at that time and I remember feeling very, just disappointed in the organization, very... I felt like, yeah, for someone who spent so much time with the organization, it felt like they didn't really care. And that was tough. That was really, really difficult for me. But I also think that I can respect that my time ran out there, and it's probably for the better, right? So, you know, I think as saddened as I was to have been let go in that way, I think the work that I've done to sort of reconcile that in my own head, the, you know, again, the timing was just the timing, and I had to be okay with that. The major concern for me was the visa sponsorship, though.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:24

Yeah, that's what I'm very curious about here, too. So you and I got to have a couple of conversations. And you know, what I remember was that it seemed like you were, I don't know, prepping for the worst, maybe is a good way to put it. It seemed like it put an intense pressure on your job search, and that racing against the ticking clock so that you could secure sponsorship before time potentially ran out. What I'm really curious about is, how did that urgency impact your mindset and your approach during this time?

Stephanie Drumright 10:06

Yeah. It was really twofold, right? Because of the way my sort of contract had worked with my previous organization, I still had three months of garden leave before, again, I knew that the organization would inform the government of my lack of sponsorship. And then I knew that the way it works in the UK is that then the government has the particular amount of time to sort of process that, they can do it very quickly, sometimes they can take much longer, but once they process it, then there's 60 days until I have to leave the country if I don't have a job. So I was looking at this end to end, sort of, five months. And I thought, "You know what? If I really put my head down to it and I really figure out what I want to do, I truly believe that I can find a job that will sponsor me, and it'll be the right one, and I can do it in five months." So there was part of me that was feeling a little bit comfortable, and I think that was nice because it actually allowed me to stop and really think about what I wanted to be doing. But yeah, so I guess, from my perspective, initially, I was feeling a little comfortable, but then when we spoke, that's when I was really starting to panic. The absolute panic was setting in, and I think we were speaking probably, yeah, when I maybe had a month or two left.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:38

Yeah, absolutely. Can I read you something really quick that I think maybe illustrates? This is a little bit of what you sent us. And it said, "Hey, I've applied to 91 jobs in the past four months. About 30% I'm getting rejections. Another 30% I'm hearing nothing about. 15% I'm not qualified for because of my visa status, and another 15% I've heard back from and typically had a first round interview." And in those, I often seize up because of performance anxiety. And it feels like maybe that illustrated right where your head was at the point in time where you're, you know, approximately any moment from 60 days away till you have to leave the country.

Stephanie Drumright 12:22

Absolutely. I mean, you're taking me back into those moments of utter chaos and frustration and kind of it was the lead up to a bit of panic and terror, really. But yeah, so it just was, it felt a bit crazy that I had applied to 91 jobs by that point. So, you know, I ended up applying to 145 jobs before I had received my first offer, and then I received my second one after that. But, yes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:49

Well, let's talk about that, because there were many things that you did along the way that didn't work, but there were also quite a few pieces that did work, or eventually, as you were learning along the way, turned into something that worked. And so I'm curious when you, you know, when you first got to that point where it's like, "any day now, could be the 60 day ticking clock, and most of what I'm doing at this point seems to be not working." What do you remember was the first change along the way where things could actually start working, or you could start to see a path forward? Tell me a little bit about.

Stephanie Drumright 13:35

Yeah, it's a great question, and I think there's a couple of things. I'm very quite process oriented, so I had already built myself a bit of a regular kind of cadence around how I was applying to roles and doing so on a day by day basis, and then getting interviews and really sticking to a schedule. So that was very helpful, and I had been doing that prior to reaching out to you all. But again, it just felt like something was not quite working, and something was not quite there. And I really attribute that to this net that I was so broadly casting, and I think that as I was having conversations with people about what I want to do, and I was really starting to think about the type of environment I wanted to be in, it was still, oh, so many possibilities. And I was able to, sort of, through conversations, narrow that down a little further, but when I was listening to a lot of your podcast around that kind of ideal company profile and ideal role, I was sort of like, "You know what? This feels like I need to have this conversation." And that, to me, was probably like one of the biggest defining moments, I think for me, when Phil and I started to do that work together. Because, again, I had already done a lot of that. It was just more so validating the, like, what are the more specific things that I think about when I go about my day, and what I want that to look like in the next number of months, years and so on. And I hadn't really gotten so detailed. I hadn't really specified, "Oh, I won't travel more than 45 minutes on a commute", or, "I want to go into the office three times a week, at least", but no more, you know. So I wanted a hybrid working model. And then I knew I wanted that head of ops role, and then I knew I wanted to be in an organization that was really no bigger than 250 people. So it actually allowed me to get down to the specifics of that. And what I actually think one of the main reasons I actually think that was so important was not only did it give me a bit of peace of mind around what I was applying for, and it allowed me to be more specific and to go for those things, when I actually then started to get those interviews with those types of companies, yes, I still got plenty of rejections because of the visa stuff. But when I then kind of started to get those interviews, a lot of those size companies were actually very willing to sponsor. And so I'm sort of in that range and then it was, like, the massive companies, but there's, you know, real difference there in terms of style of, you know, organization and working. But yeah, I guess that to me, was a real validating point. Yeah, it felt super right once I had defined that, and then was really going after those types of companies in that role, and then I was feeling very validated once I got those interviews.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:50

So let me ask you about that. I think that what you just shared, there were so many important pieces wrapped up in there. So I'd like to go over a few of them and see if we can break them out, so that people can use these insights, because they're subtle. They're very subtle. The first thing I heard you mention is that what really made the difference for you was going from casting this really wide net where you thought you knew what you wanted, going to a much, much smaller or maybe more specific net where you were targeting a higher degree of specificity. So here's my question for you, almost everyone that we have worked with in the last 12 years believes that they are being pretty specific, like, that's the place where we get to talk to everybody, and I'm honored that we get to help people through in that capacity, and get what they believe is specific to a very, very high degree of specificity. And I would say that, you know, in your situation, what I'm really curious about is, what do you think worked for you to get to that different level of specificity?

Stephanie Drumright 18:02

Yeah. Well, I think that I had, again, started with thinking about my skill set and what I really enjoyed doing in the jobs that I have had over the course of the prior 12 years. Knowing that I'm very much a people person, knowing that I'm very much process oriented, and knowing that I wanted to bring delight into new ways in which people work, there were...

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:33

I love that about you, by the way. That came across that you want to bring delight into the ways that people are working. That stood out from our conversations, too. So that was just a fun thing for me, selfishly. Thank you for putting that into the world. I appreciate it.

Stephanie Drumright 18:48

I'm glad. I'm glad. It's really important to me that that is how I think about operations, right? And so I think that, as I was thinking about then, "Okay, those high level things, how do those apply into the skills that I have, and what is really going to light my fire within me and really get me excited?" I did a lot of work to kind of take that through and go, "Okay, here are the different kinds of roles I could potentially do, and the ones that I might really enjoy as well." You know, I really enjoy being in the room and having the tough conversations and being part of the decision making and being the process of decision making. I really enjoy, again, the people aspect of work, mentoring, coaching, guiding. You know, I, again, really want to make sure that people are happy with the ways they work, because we come to work every day, we shouldn't, you know, we shouldn't be a slog. Everyone should be enjoying what they're doing and how they're doing it, right? So, you know, again, I thought a lot about, "Okay, there's four or five different paths I could potentially take." A couple of them felt a little bit more, I think, ideal in the sense that they felt like a bit of a step up. For me, that was particularly kind of going into and seeking out these head of operations or sort of director role, Director of Operations roles, and also kind of, I was looking at Chief of Staff and things like that. Then there was the project or program management type roles and kind of still being in a managerial position, but pursuing that, and that felt very just, kind of like, a horizontal transition for me, but yeah. And then there were a couple other things that sort of seemed interesting, but I probably would have to start much lower down in the totem pole and then work my way up, and I wasn't quite prepared for that. So I think by actually taking that broader step back, thinking high level about what I like and what I want to do, and then associating some of the things that I've really enjoyed throughout my career, and then breaking it down further as too well, where does that apply into potential roles that I might want to do. I did then a significant amount of research on the different role types on LinkedIn. I talked to various different leaders who I both worked with in the past, but also I did a lot of networking and reached out to lots of people and just had conversations about what those types of roles look like. So I did a lot of research. I would say, then, going back to the casting the net wide, I was so worried about not getting a job in time for my visa expiring, that I thought, "Oh, I need to go out there and pretty much blast as many organizations as I can in order to make sure I'm optimizing the touch points with different companies." And I think that's where it was good in lots of ways, but it also showed me, and I bet if I went back and looked at my analysis, it showed me which ones I was actually really excited about. And that then more naturally as I met with Phillip, you know, we really broke it down and identified that the head of operations role was the one that was right for me, and that's how I wanted to pursue it. And it was also a step up in the right direction for me, I felt. And I think that can, obviously, that can sometimes be very scary for people, and I think that's one reason maybe people, you know, don't often kind of immediately jump to pursue that. I certainly felt that way. But I think the more I practiced reviewing the job descriptions, tailoring my resume, you know, contacting these organizations that were hiring head of ops, and the more I interviewed for those types of roles, the more I realized, "Oh, I am well qualified for these types of roles."

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:50

We've been doing this for 12 years at this point, and I am amazed over and over and over again. It doesn't quite make sense, but it happens almost like clockwork when people can strategically focus, like you did, narrow down on what they want, and then do the really often difficult work of, you know, whatever it goes going to take to make that happen, essentially, in their world. And then it seems to, it doesn't always perfectly work in a, you know, certain time frame, but it does, consistently, over and over and over again, deliver results. It's almost strange. It's not magical, though, when we come back to it. The reality is, you did a really great job honing in on what you wanted. And then you, I almost liken it to, I don't know, like, way back before we had GPS, and even if you were driving without a map, like, let's say that you knew, similar to, "you knew when you wanted to be a head of operations at a smaller organization, and you knew all these other pieces that were really highly specific" so you knew generally where you want to go, much like, if I know that I want to drive to, I don't know, New York City or something, New York City, New York, and I'm starting out in Washington State where I live, even if I don't have a map, still going to be able to eventually find my way by continually heading in that direction. And it's not magic how you get there, you know, may take a thousand wrong turns and have to, like, stop and ask people and all the things, but eventually you get to New York City, and eventually, in this case, you ended up at an organization that you were excited about with an offer that was a miraculous fit in an operations type of role that you were looking for. So congratulations on doing the work.

Stephanie Drumright 24:44

Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, it feels really great. I've landed in an incredible company with brilliant people. And, you know, it's both a great cultural fit as well as the role fit, as well as being something that I know I'm gonna have growth opportunities as well. It's exciting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:06

One thing that we didn't talk about yet that I really wanted to ask you about. So okay, as way back when you and I were having a conversation about how we could help, and I was thinking through your exact situation. One of the things that was going through my head was, well, number one, at the time, how do we find a strategy for you that allows you to be able to get exceptions made for you? Because that's really what we were talking about. We were talking about this super short time frame. We were talking about the fact that not all organizations are willing to or need to or bother with sponsoring or visas or that whole entire process. There's plenty of people in the market that why should they need to in the first place. So as you went into some of those interviews, or as you targeted some of those organizations that were potentially a fit, what did you find set you up to get exceptions made for you?

Stephanie Drumright 26:07

It's a really interesting question because I actually experienced some things that were quite surprising where I thought that exceptions would be made. And some of the things that I've done were applying through referrals, which is usually a very good approach, and I highly recommend that no matter what, you're much more likely to get looked at in the interview process, and potentially they're more likely to make exceptions. Unfortunately, I found quite a number of those that just weren't going to allow that again, just by nature, especially of the situation I was in. So I actually started to take a different tact, and it's a little different to kind of what you're asking here, because in the end, I don't think the exceptions necessarily worked out. What I did was, I did some research on companies that actually had visa sponsorship. So I started with, "Oh, I know that they sponsor visas", so that was a good thing. So definitely knowing that they have visa sponsorship, good start. What I then did was, and me and my coach talked a lot about this, was, do we say it up front, or do we get through the interview process a little bit more and then hope that they're willing to make an exception? I am not a person who likes to kind of hide things, and I felt that was not going to work in my favor and also potentially just gonna be a waste of my time. So I actually took the approach of disqualifying quickly. And for anyone who has a sales background, that is what you have to do. You have to go in there, and you have to get the no as quickly as possible, and you just gotta know when to walk away. So for me, that actually was really helpful because it felt like I was then taking the control in those situations. I was the one going into those conversations saying, "I need a visa sponsorship. I'm really excited about this role. I know you guys sponsor. Could you tell me a little bit more about that?" In some cases, unfortunately, companies do have a visa sponsorship license, but they specifically save the visas that they will sponsor for very specific kinds of roles that are difficult to hire for within the country and where they do want to hire people externally and bring them in. So it might, one of my roles was just not one of those. So I still found a lot of rejection from that, but at the very least, I was the one being upfront and going, "Okay, you can't meet my requirements. And this is a requirement I have." And I think a little bit of that switch in my brain around this not being a limitation of me getting a job, but this being one of my requirements I have to getting a job, really changed the narrative in my head and really allowed me to go, "Cool. I can walk away without feeling ignored or frustrated by this."

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:19

That's awesome. And I think that what I'm taking from that, in your case, you had to find the, I'm going to call it mental path, or maybe even the psychological shortcuts that worked for you, to be able to go in and show up in the way that you wanted to. And then also, you know, back to what we had said before, just targeting the right situations that are more likely to create the end result that you're looking for sets you up for success, and even then, it's still a numbers game, but it's the right numbers game, as opposed to, let me apply carte blanche to anything that I can, and it ultimately led to the result that you were looking for. That's cool.

Stephanie Drumright 30:01

Exactly right.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:02

So, I think here's one of the things that I want to know, you know, at this point, now that you've done that, what advice would you give to other people in that similar situation where, you know, maybe they even have their back up against a wall in, you know, whether it's in the way that you did, or another totally different way, it would be really easy to then not focus on what you want and accept anything, but you didn't. What advice would you give?

Stephanie Drumright 30:31

Yeah, it's a home. And the moments of weakness I certainly had with the, "I'm just going to accept anything, and it's going to be fine." And to be honest, I did go through some of those processes as well, right? I got one. It was still a great opportunity. But it's funny how it ended up working out, where, actually, when I... So to take a step back, when I really was in a state of just I was just so frozen and just not knowing what to do, just very frustrated and whatnot, the getting back to the basics was a huge momentum builder again. So I would highly recommend that when you have a moment where you've received that rejection, feel it, but jot down what you've learned, talk to other people about, you know, what learnings can be taken from those rejections, and then work to figure out how to implement that, and then get back to the basis to build more momentum moving forward. Because, like you said, it's not going to magically work out. You have to know where am I headed. I needed to be visualizing that constantly. I actually sat down on the couch every single day for one month, and I visualized what it would feel like going into an office again and doing a specific head of ops role, and I put myself in that continuously because that allowed me to go, "I'm going to get there. I know it, and I believe it. I just haven't found the right thing." And so there's a matter of believing in the end possibilities that you will achieve. There's also a matter of believing in oneself that I can do more than I ever potentially, you know, expected. And I would say the sort of last piece of advice is you can't control everything, and at some point you have to only focus on what you can control. And this was very difficult when your back is against a wall and you're experiencing rejection for things that you cannot control, and it just eats you up inside. But if you can separate that out and go, that's completely out of my control, and these are the things I can do and the steps that I can take that are within my control, mentally, that's a game changing moment, and I highly recommend meditation around that, visualization around those things, and an ability to just, you know, get out that you're frustrated, but also then recognize that you're doing all the right things because you are, right? If you're in the work, you're doing the right things that are going to get you to get you to where you need to go, and then trust in the process. This was my mantra throughout the nine months I was searching for a job, and it felt very, not fake initially, but I truly had to lean into that mantra by the last sort of two to three months or so of my job search, and particularly in the last month of the lead up to getting two job offers, it was very much like I have to trust the process. The one other thing I'll say about the fact that I had one job offer was for a really great role at a fantastic company, I was so excited to work with these people as well. There was something that I was just... I was waiting for the offer to be finalized, and I was waiting for them to come back with kind of what my expectations were, and hopefully they would meet that. And they were taking a while. And it was really, I was speaking to my mom, actually, and she was like, "Look, this is so great. You have an offer. It's not as much money as you want, but it's a great company. It's probably going to be, you know, a really good thing, but don't stop your momentum. You never know what could happen. So get off this call with me and go apply to four or five jobs. Just see what happens." And I did. And I got a call back from two the next day, and I then met with the talent acquisition partner for one of them that I was really excited about. I then was fast tracked because they knew I already had an offer being upfront with them about that. And I was fast tracked to meet with the hiring manager, and I was fast tracked to meet with two more of the executive leaders, and after meeting them and then the CEO, I had an offer within eight days from that organization, and that's the actual company that I ended up working for. So it's just one of those things where you just sort of never know, but don't let up.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:54

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:47

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 36:52

I'm not stressed out. I'm not frustrated. I'm not spending my evening dreading the morning. So I have the space in my brain to focus on life, like, making dinner and spending time with my family.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:07

What if the most profound impact of an intentional career change wasn't about the job at all? Imagine a transformation so deep that it rewrites, not just your work life, but how you show up for the people that you love the most. Most people chase career changes, hoping for a better title, better paycheck, a solution to their happiness. But what if the real gold was hiding in the moment of being able to speak to your partner without work induced irritation, or being able to not worry about your phone and what's going on at work during family dinner, or in having the energy to truly listen to your child's day instead of being mentally exhausted?

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:52

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it, and if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player, so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week, until next week. Adios, I'm out.