Jenna Murphy 00:00

There becomes a point in life where you have to decide, "Can I continue on this path? Or do I have to decide that it's time for me to be some and do something different?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:08

"My degree is useless outside my profession." That's the message I received from a chiropractor wanting to make a career change. After years of specialized education and practice, he felt pretty trapped by his specific training, and it's a sentiment I hear all the time from professionals with specialized careers– lawyers, dentists, nurses, accountants. Once you've invested years in a specific path, it's easy to feel like you're locked in forever. But what if everything you thought you knew about your career options was wrong? For example, the idea that your specialized degree limits you, not so much. Or the belief that your skills won't transfer, that's not what we find at all. Or the fear that you're going to need to start over. In fact, we see the very opposite.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:55

So yeah. Or maybe, what about the assumption that you're gonna need to go get another degree? Could be but usually pretty wrong. The truth is, some studies show that as many as 82% of people are doing work that is partially or significantly different than their degree or education. Most mid to large companies care that you have a degree, not necessarily which specific degree you earned. Jenna Murphy was a criminal prosecutor for over a decade, and she started feeling that her career no longer aligned with her priorities as a new mother, and at that point, she found herself at a crossroads that many specialized professionals face. With years invested in legal training, courtroom experience, how on earth was she going to pivot to something else? What was going through her head at the time was, how is a company going to value her resume filled with criminal cases and jury trials if she wasn't applying to another litigation role? It's easy to look at somebody else's situation and say, "Oh, yeah, of course, there's transferable skills." But the mental trap that catches so many professionals with specialized training is that when all you've known is one path, it's nearly impossible to see the bridge to another. The walls of your current profession just block the view of everything else. So I want to take you through how Jenna confronted this seemingly impossible dilemma, and what happened when she challenged the assumption that she was too specialized to change direction. Here's just a little bit about where Jenna's career began.

Jenna Murphy 02:28

I really don't know what the draw was specifically about the legal field, because if you had asked me in college, I would have told you I wasn't smart enough to be a lawyer. When I was in high school, I had a family member who found himself in some unfortunate, unfortunately, found himself in some trouble. And while I guess some part of me could have represented him, I did not think I could do that for other people. I knew that there had to be justice somewhere. But also at that time, I felt like there might have been some injustice that was done by the criminal procedure process. And so I began to look and I thought, "Well, if I decide to go and be an assistant district attorney", which is what only thing I knew of at that point in time, "at least I can make sure that the charges that I bring are appropriate, and I can feel like that there's a reason someone is being held accountable for the things they do." What I did not want to do is somebody walk in my office and say, "I killed those five people. Can you get me off with it?" And I just couldn't do that. But as a prosecutor, I would have the ability to be sure the charges were appropriate and to make sure justice was seen through.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:43

There's often a pattern that happens here. What begins as a great fit gradually shifts as your life circumstances and your priorities change, the career itself doesn't necessarily become bad. Sometimes that happens, but usually it just stops being right for you in your situation. It's also what happened for Jenna.

Jenna Murphy 04:03

Becoming a mom, getting married, yes, having...

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:06

How old are your kiddos now?

Jenna Murphy 04:08

I have a four year old. He just turned four in June, and I have a little over two and a half years old. He'll be three in January. And that always, I guess, somewhere new inside of me that would change me. I just didn't realize how much it was going to change me. And it was those times that, for instance, that jury trial that just really bothered me that I had spent, you know, granted, I tried to be good to them and put them to bed and do all the things, but then many have not sat on my couch prepping for a trial that my husband sat beside me and didn't get any attention because I was working only to stand in front of a jury and a jury be like, "Yeah, whatever." And that was the part that made it really hard. The burnout was extreme. I mean, I think COVID obviously had a lull in it. Our jurisdiction, in particular, was not one that took a whole lot of time off. We got about two weeks down before we went back into actually having a jail matter, where we had to get people out of jail because they, you know, misdemeanors, you just can't keep people in jail forever. And so that was virtual. What we took about 60 days is all we took before we went back to the office full time. Of course, I went back to the office full time and told them, "Surprised. I'm pregnant again. Here we go." Yeah, so and then coming back, once everything loosened up post COVID, I'm proud of the sheriff's office that I worked with, but the speed and the intensity of which they are making cases made it really hard to adequately juggle the caseload and the responsibilities I had there and my ability to be a mother.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:38

There's something interesting that happens even when we know we need to make a change. Maybe the writing's been on the wall for a while, but the career that once fit us is no longer right. We almost always actually need something further to kind of push us over the edge to make that change. We call this a career change catalyst moment, and here's Jenna sharing her moment that caused her to finally take action.

Jenna Murphy 06:02

My kids had a Thanksgiving program at school, at daycare. And I can remember being in court almost running to my car to get back to daycare, to get to daycare, to be there to watch them. My mom and my dad had come from where they live. My husband was there. And so, of course, I rushed in and I watched this program. Thankfully, I didn't miss any of it. But then, I watched the clock the entire time I was there, and then rushed back to go back to court. And I think that was probably the straw that really broke the camel's back, for a lack of better explanation, was that I just knew at that point that I couldn't juggle both things.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:56

Okay, so Jenna faces reality, something has to change. But what her legal career felt like a box that she was trapped in, and by the way, this happens all the time for people who are in specialized careers, the real roadblock isn't your actual skills. It's the story you tell yourself about those skills. "I'm just a prosecutor", becomes a self-imposed career prison. The minute you believe that your skills won't translate is the exact time that they actually won't because you won't even try. So the really fun thing for us is when we get to help people work through this, then they can start to expand their belief and look at this through fresh eyes. And that's what happened in Jenna's case.

Jenna Murphy 07:37

I can remember telling Phillip, "I don't know how I put on here. I put people in jail." Like that's not something that people... They're not going to look at this and be like, you know? And so...

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:48

It does not feel like a success to other people viewing the resume.

Jenna Murphy 07:52

Right. It really doesn't. And I mean, I had some really great opportunities at my last job. Probably the most notable, well, no, not probably, the most notable thing that I was able to do at my last job was at 33-34 weeks pregnant with my oldest, I argued in front of the Georgia Supreme Court. That's an opportunity I would probably never get to do again. Maybe if I'd stayed in a prosecution role and doing a lot of appellate work, then I might have. But some prosecutors go their entire career and never, probably don't ever get away with not submitting an appeal to the Court of Appeals, but to get to stand in front of the Supreme Court of Georgia or the Supreme Court of their state and argue, present an argument, and for a lack of... To win it, because that's what we did.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:46

As Jenna began to clarify what she truly needed in her next role, she discovered that her ideal work environment looked very different from what she had previously accepted as normal.

Jenna Murphy 08:55

I had to learn to stand up for myself and open my mouth and say things, where things bothered me or where I didn't agree with things, so I wouldn't be taken advantage of. Maybe it was just the fact that I was so burnt out that I knew if I didn't say anything, that if I didn't... I was having to put boundaries. I was starting... That was something, I guess, people kept saying, "Set boundaries. Set boundaries. Set boundaries." And I'm like, "What you don't understand is, I came into this job, my last job, single. I had no significant other in any shape, form or fashion when I moved here. I lived by myself. I ate, slept, lived and breathed my job. I went home on the weekends, occasionally, to see my family. But beyond that, I had nothing. I could devote 150% of me to my job." Well, when you set that up, setting boundaries, pulling back and setting those boundaries is almost impossible.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:50

Once Jenna got crystal clear on what she actually needed, not just what she thought she should want, doors began opening. And I've seen this happen over and over again. Rather than force herself into another litigation role, she started focusing on the work environment and the lifestyle she truly desired, and this led her to consider a position that she maybe hadn't wanted to before, one that was a strategic move forward, and what allowed her to get what mattered most.

Jenna Murphy 10:20

I just had a really hard time finding companies and organizations to embrace the fact that I had spent my career putting people in jail or prison that I had, you know, sure, I negotiated a lot of things, but most everywhere would have wanted me in a litigation, courtroom style role, and I really wanted somewhere that took a major step back. But at the same time, taking a senior like paralegal role also let me learn this industry. It was going to let me have that time and flexibility that I wanted, but also would have made me a big asset to learn a different area of law and expand my horizons, so that if it, you know, if they couldn't offer me a jump or a different place, eventually, that at least I would have those things under my belt, finally, where other places would give me that opportunity.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:12

During intentional career change, there's often this moment when you realize that changing how you viewed what you need might actually be your path forward. Specialists get trapped by titles and status, and often it leaves them missing opportunities for what they truly need. Jenna faced this whole dilemma when she was considering a paralegal role after years as a prosecutor. Her explanation to the hiring manager reveals a profound shift in how she viewed career success.

Jenna Murphy 11:42

I think in my last job, because of the nature of where it was and there's no denying that we needed more staff, we need more attorneys, we need more staff, and we needed more judges. I think anybody in that office to this day will tell you that. The county is just growing at a rate that really needed that, and we just weren't going to have that. And so there was not the ability to say, "No". You kind of had to take and embrace whatever was asked, just because it had to be done. I mean, at this point, you're working with people's freedom and their constitutional rights. And so there really wasn't a whole lot of leeway to say no. So to have somewhere that I could say, "I'm sorry my plate is loaded. Is it possible to have somebody else work on that?" It was something that was really important to me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:37

There's this quote by Orson Scott Card. It goes something like, "This is how humans are. We question all our beliefs, except for the ones we really believe in, and those we never think to question. The key here is often narrowing focus on what matters, and expanding your beliefs about how what you want, what you need, might become possible." But here's what Jenna narrowed in on as what was most important to her.

Jenna Murphy 13:05

Pay, flexibility, career path, and then the belief structure of the organization, and the pay was there when they made the offer. The flexibility was the fact that I was able to work from home. They're good about, you know, I can do daycare pickup and I can do daycare drop off. I mean, the first time I remember, as I wound down at my last job, I had to do daycare drop off one morning, I looked at my husband, I was like, "What? What do I do? Where do I take them?" Because he had done all this for the entire four years of our oldest life. I could count on one hand the amount of time that I dropped him off or I picked him up, and the little one even less so, because he was younger. Career path, I wanted something that I had a really hard time finding places to embrace the fact that I had been a litigator and they wanted me to litigate. They didn't see the connecting dots of being able to negotiate contracts and things of that nature. So taking... When, actually, when the director of compliance who made my offer called, she said, "Why do you want to be a senior paralegal? Why?" And I said, "Honestly, I want to have more flexibility to be with my kids. I want to be able to have more time to..." I said, "I'm not asking not to work, but I said I'm asking not to have to answer to anybody else's schedule other than a PTO schedule that, okay, there's too many people off. I'm sorry. Or yeah, there is something important that week. We can't go that week, but we can go the next week." I said, "I want that ability." So that's why I want to be a senior paralegal.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:40

When you get clear on your priorities and find an environment that aligns with those priorities, your specialized background becomes an unexpected asset, not a liability. In Jenna's case, her skills from handling criminal cases transferred perfectly to this new environment. And now, she has a role that supports her priorities. But here's the funny thing that is even better. When you get aligned with the right environment, right situation, right people, that can expand quickly to something you never thought it could. She was initially hired on as a senior paralegal, not in the attorney position. Jenna's specialized background quickly proved to be an overall benefit, an overall asset, and even more valuable than either she or the company had initially thought.

Jenna Murphy 15:28

As of Wednesday last week, I was asked to step in as the third Associate General Counsel for the company where I'm now working. That was, kind of, a shock to me, to walk in and just be content with where I was just there, to onboard and meet everyone and get to know where I was working at, and then to walk into an office and say, "You have a lot of potential. You have a lot to offer. We would really like for you to step into a full attorney role instead of just being a paralegal."

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:02

Okay, so we've already established that in reality, most of the skills that you've developed are transferable, even if you don't think that they are, You just need to reframe how to think about them. Yes, I know that's hard to do, so here's Jenna's advice for anybody who's in a similar situation.

Jenna Murphy 16:17

I would give them permission. It's okay. Because I wallowed with that. I felt guilty. For the longest time, there are probably people who still don't know the process that I went through, the links that I went through to make this career change happen. I was scared in that process that it would be detrimental to the job that I really needed, because I have a husband and two children and really needed to stay in that place. You know, I didn't need to be unemployed before I was employed somewhere else. Thankful for the opportunity that I had, but I would give them permission to go after that. But the other thing is, make sure that you define what it is that you want, don't settle. Because there were times where I probably would have. But also, when you select someone to stand behind you, like I did with Phillip, make sure that you'll know. When that person comes on, you will absolutely know when they log on and you talk to them for more than 30 seconds, you will know this is the person who is going to help me the most, and that's what you need in this process. You need someone who will have your back. And I probably utilize him more than most people did, but I am so grateful for his guidance, but more so of him just simply reminding me to stay in the place where I was and to stand strong and not relinquish on what I wanted.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:48

When I think back to that chiropractor I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, or anybody who has reached out to me over the years saying that their training, their degree was useless outside their profession, I know it feels that way, but I wish every single one of those people could hear Jenna's story. The truth is, no specialized education or experience is ever truly limiting, unless we decide it is. The skills that made Jenna effective as a prosecutor, her ability to negotiate, her attention to detail, her critical thinking, were exactly what made her valuable in an entirely different context. And within just a few weeks, her new company recognized this value and promoted her. So a lot of people find this podcast wondering, "Am I too far into this career path to do something different?" And the answer is in unequivocal, no. Your specialized skills are not a prison. They're a foundation that you can build on in countless ways. The real question here isn't whether or not you can change the direction, it's what direction would actually fit who you are now, not who you were when you started your career. And by the way, if you're stuck with this whole specialized dilemma, we would love to help. Just drop me an email, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just put 'Conversation' in the subject line. I'll connect you with the right person on my team, and we'll figure out the very best way that we can support you. Scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:13

Okay, here's what's coming up next week, right here on Happen To Your Career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:17

Society calls a career change during your 40s a midlife crisis.

Speaker 3 19:22

I was this trapped, caged bird, you know, that I was not allowed to fly, and that was really devastating.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:33

The real challenge isn't just the midlife crisis. It's also not just about what job you're in. The real reason career change in your 40s is difficult, is because many of the challenges are hidden.

Speaker 4 19:44

My job was my identity. So I had to figure out who was I without this job, and what did I want to do. And there was some work for me to understand that just because I left that role, I didn't leave all of my strengths behind.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:02

The conventional wisdom says that your 40s are the worst time to make a career change. You have so many responsibilities, mortgages, kid activities, college tuition, financial obligations, you should just be grateful for what you have. But what if your 40s were actually the best time to make a change?

Travis Van Oosbree 00:00

Don't be afraid to, like, just make that really awkward connection because if you don't, you're right where you are, and if you do, you know, maybe after that conversation, you'll still be right where you are, but maybe you'll be somewhere further along in the road.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:18

If you've ever been in an emergency situation, you know how chaotic it can feel, especially if there's panic and distractions. Doing something like screaming, "Help. Help!" rarely works. What emergency responders learn is that you need to give clear, specific instructions. "You in the pink shirt. Call 911, right away." "You in the corner. Bring me a towel." This principle applies in everyday life too. If my wife asks, "Can somebody take out the trash?" And she shouts it out into the abyss of our house, my three teenagers will do their best to assume she's talking to a different one of them. Nobody moves. But when she says, "Camden, please take out the trash before dinner", suddenly there's clarity and action. Studies show that this specificity carries beyond emergency situations and household chores, probably not a surprise, knowing what you want and being extremely clear is the best way to get what you want because when you know what you want, it becomes easier to ask for it, and when you ask for what you want, strangely enough, you get what you want more often.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:21

Now, of course, what you've heard us talk about on the podcast, that we call intentional career change, works this way as well. Simply announcing you're open to work on LinkedIn is not effective. What makes a difference is engineering the right conversations with strategic specificity and making it easy on other people to help. In just a moment, you're going to hear from Travis, and he transformed his career by embracing conversations that felt a little uncomfortable and awkward. But before he did this, Travis spent years as a cabinet maker, and there he felt increasingly trapped, even though he was building all of this technical expertise. I want you to pay attention to how Travis pinpointed the direction he wanted to take his career, and then how he leveraged that specificity to have targeted discussions with exactly the right people. Rather than sending his resume into the void, which so many of us do, he actually built a network of connections and relationships specifically in the areas that he wanted to be in, and these connections eventually led him to his ideal role. Here's how he began figuring out that direction.

Travis Van Oosbree 02:26

I was thinking, "Where do I start? Who do I ask? How do I, you know, break down that first barrier of what direction do I go in?" And she kind of asked me, "Okay, hypothetical here, money is of no consequence. You have your whole day to yourself. What would you do if you could do anything?" And I thought about it, and I said, "You know, I would... I'd probably spend more time playing with my daughter. I would, oh, I played more softball. I joined a couple more softball leagues. Oh, I play some golf during the week. I would, you know what, I've been meaning to play that new Zelda game. I would love to play, have more time to play video games." And she was like, "Okay, Travis, you just said play about five times in 15 seconds. So let's focus on play." And I was like, "Oh, okay, yeah." She said, "Have you thought about the toy industry? The games industry?" And that really was it. That was where I thought, "Okay, I don't know who's going to pay me to play, but let me get on LinkedIn and see who I know, you know, who might have a second connection at Hasbro or Wizards of the Coast."

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:52

We've done this work for a long time, and I'm continually fascinated that some of the most important clues about what we truly enjoy are often hiding in our everyday conversations. For Travis, the word "play" was the key that unlocked everything else. With this new insight, Travis didn't waste a whole lot of time. He began to connect with people immediately in his newly identified target area. This strategic approach led him to an opportunity through a surprising source.

Scott Anthony Barlow 5:02

Okay, notice here how Travis casts a wide net with his outreach, but remains laser-focused on his target area or industry. This combination of broad networking with specific intent is what separates effective career changers from those who remain stuck, and he wasn't just collecting random relationships or building relationships or doing networking just for fun. Instead, each conversation was purposefully moving him closer to a career where he got to focus on play. But I want to point out one other thing too, that this feels different to people that you're having conversations with. Most people want to help, and this actually enables them to help better. So let's take a look at how Travis's methodical approach continued with another person. He didn't just hope opportunities were going to find him. He actively engineered them.

Travis Van Oosbree 04:18

I started asking everyone, "Hey, do you know anyone that works in the toys and games industry?" I asked our across the street neighbors, they came over and, you know, our kids played, and that's when she said, "Well, I know someone who works in the playground industry. Is that toys and games?" And I said, "Yeah, absolutely sure. Like, connect me with them. I'll see if I can find a link there." So that's what eventually led to me getting my current role, was this connection from the across the street neighbor. But that took seven months to come to fruition.

Travis Van Oosbree 05:56

I looked at Mattel and Hasbro, and I saw that Noelle was a connection with my friend, Will. So I text messaged my friend, Will, I said, "Hey, do you actually know this lady, Noelle? Or, you know, is it just a random LinkedIn connection?" And he said, "Oh yeah, she was the lighting designer for a play that I was in, you know, six years ago, or something like that." And I said, "Would you be comfortable introducing me to her? I have a template. If you want to just, you know, I'll send you the template, and you just say, 'Hey, I'm connecting you with my friend, Travis.'" And he said, "Yeah, sure." No skin off my nose. You know, worst thing that can happen is that your situation doesn't change, and you're exactly where you started. I talked to Noelle for 20 minutes, and, you know, I ended every conversation with, you know, "Is there anyone else I should talk to?" And she said, "Let me think about it." And I never heard back from her, you know. And it's kind of like, "Okay, well, on to the next one, I guess." And I, you know, it was the first attempt. I, you know, I started asking everyone.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:12

Okay, let's break down for a moment. What you just heard there from Travis, notice he made it easy for his friend to help him by providing a ready to use template, as he called it, for introduction. This small tactic dramatically increases the likelihood that people who say, "Yes, I want to introduce you to this other person", that they'll be able to follow through on their offer. Beyond the tactics, Travis's approach here reveals something much more fundamental about effective career change. It's not just about who you know, but who you're willing to talk to. And of course, how easy many of us are making it for the people who are trying to help us. And I should probably also point out that the challenge for so many of us is pushing past that initial awkwardness and initial reluctance to reach out in the first place. What you're going to see here, though, is as Travis continued having these conversations, he began noticing very important differences between companies, and this influenced his decisions about what created a great fit for him.

Travis Van Oosbree 08:14

I get really invested in a thing for a short period of time, and then I want to move on to the next thing. Hasbro seemed like a much better place to be optimization than Mattel did, and that's really what it came down to. So Mattel has their product lines very clearly defined. They are Hot Wheels, they are Barbie, and they drive to make sure that those existing brands are successful and profitable, whereas Hasbro is much more spread out. They have all kinds of subsidiaries with Wizards of the Coast and, you know, magic gathering in Dungeons and Dragons, or they've got board games, they've got toys, they've got all kinds of stuff. And so their research department was much more extensive. Their willingness to collaborate with outside designers and inventors to bring in new products was much more open to what's new, and that was much more exciting to me than building on an existing brand.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:25

Now, I think there's a distinction between making an intentional career change and just changing jobs or just making any kind of career change. Travis, in this case, wasn't looking for any job at these toy companies. He was digging into understand which environment would truly fit him and what he was hoping for in his career, and this is something most people miss. He was able to gain super specific insights into these massive toy companies only by having these thoughtful conversations with people who were on the inside. He wasn't getting this from reading job descriptions, or company websites. Yeah, he did all that too, but he took it a step further. Here's an example of one of the helpful conversations that he had as he made his career change.

Travis Van Oosbree 10:10

One of my wife's longtime friends is a freelance marketer. And I said, "Hey, Tracy. I'm doing this career change. Can you... Do you have 15 minutes just to give me like marketing 101, is this something I should pursue? Or do I put it, you know, in the round file and move on to the next one?" And so, you know, I took 30 minutes with Tracy, and she said, "Okay, you could be... there's email marketing specialists. There's, you know..." She listed off six or seven different branches of marketing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:47

Copywriting, there's advertising, there's digital strategy. Yeah, all the things.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:29

You probably noticed how Travis quickly figures out which marketing roles don't appeal to him, and then he zeros in on the one that is aligned with his strengths, aligned with his interests the best. So Travis, he began combining all of this learning, this exploration of different types of industries and organizations as he was also exploring these different types of roles within those organizations. And he wasn't just speaking about toys and games or asking about product marketing. What he was really doing is he's investigating how these could come together. Eventually, all of this exploration led Travis to a role in a playground company, which he mentioned earlier on. But here's how he decided if this job offered what he actually wanted in his ideal career.

Travis Van Oosbree 10:52

And I was kind of like, "You know, really, none of that sounds, you know, SEO, search engine optimization on your website that doesn't... That's not the kind of marketing that I thought I would be interested in." And then she said, "Well, there's product marketing managers that, you know, kind of, are the go between to the sales and the marketing and the consumer, and they kind of just make sure that everyone's on the same page, and you know, you're the advocate for the end user, and you're the advocate for the sales to make sure that marketing is getting them the material that they need to provide the end user with what they want." And I thought, "Well, that sounds right up my alley. That's very much project management. That sounds very social inter department. Learn a little bit about sales, learn a little bit about the client, learn a little bit about marketing, and be kind of this information hub." Whereas I started to go down that product marketing path, I realized the triangle between end users, sales, and marketing. I was most interested in end user, and most interested in researching, "What does the user want?" I really like the idea of market research, play testing, observing people using the product and getting their responses.

Travis Van Oosbree 13:17

I went through and I looked at the offer and I filtered it through the ICP, and it met the minimums for everything except for income, and that was a really hard thing to come to terms with. Because all of the personal, all of the, you know that I work from home, so my commute, you know, my minimum was less than an hour commute. Well now, I dropped my daughter off at daycare, I come back home and I get on my computer. That's my commute. You know, under helping others, I said, "I want to be face to face with the people I'm helping, and I must be a source of expertise that people turn to for help." So as a project manager for a playground company that I manage the installation, I'm in the field. I'm, you know, I'm seeing, not only the contractors that we work with, I go out tomorrow. I'm going to go out to San Francisco, and I'm going to fix a little playground that's already been installed. There's going to be kids on it playing, swinging, laughing while I'm out there like that. Doesn't get more face to face with the people I'm helping than the children who use this playground equipment every day. The way I was able to kind of, you know, wrap my head around it was, I said, "If this meets all of these other criteria, it will lighten my emotional load and free me up to do kind of those side projects that I've always said I just don't have the time or energy to do, to make you a picture frame that I could then, you know, ask someone for $100 for. Or, I've always had this idea of having a podcast or having a YouTube channel. Like, now I might have the energy and the time to say, 'You know what, I don't need to... I'm not so exhausted that I need to go to bed at nine o'clock. I'll stay up and I'll edit that video of me on the golf course, or whatever it is, and put it on YouTube.'"Like, I've got kind of more drive to do those side projects.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:47

Such an important point about viewing your career as part of your overall life design. It's not your entire identity. And Travis found a way to meet his needs holistically rather than expecting a single job is going to satisfy every single part of his ideal career profile. But Travis didn't stop there. He was already looking at how he could shape his role into something even closer. And by the way, this is how it happens in reality. It's always an iteration. It's never you find the thing and you roll off into the sunset. You're always iterating and continuing to create a better and better situation for yourself.

Travis Van Oosbree 16:26

It's a big enough organization where I feel like there's room to grow. I still think that, like, maybe I've already reached out to the marketing department and said, "You know, like, I'd love..." They have their own research team that researches play and children and how they interact with their equipment, and how they can better design their equipment to meet children's developmental needs. And so, you know, maybe they need a product marketing manager. It's not currently a role that they have, but I figure, like, let me start doing some of that work. And I'm still, you know, a member of the product marketing alliance. I'm still getting their emails, and they have a meet up next Friday where, you know, we just go out and get drinks with other product marketers in the area. And I'll just, you know, continue to keep an eye on that path. Keep one eye, look in that direction, build some skills in the background. Oh, I should also mention, as part of my negotiation, I said, "It won't show up on my salary, but would you pay for some... would you pay for me to get my product, I'm sorry, my project manager's professional certificate, PMP certificate?" And they said, "Yeah, okay, I think we can swing that." And that was just like, "Okay, that doesn't show up on my paycheck, but it is an expense that they will shoulder, that I don't and that I carry with me."

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:08

I think it's worthwhile to point out right here that Travis literally started his journey by subscribing to this podcast. And I would encourage you to do the same thing. If you're loving some of these stories and strategies, take just a moment, hit the subscribe or follow button, and then that way, every time we release an episode like this one, you can get notified. It's a simple step that Travis took that eventually led to actually one of my favorite parts of Travis's journey. It was his refusal to settle for the conventional wisdom that work is supposed to be terrible or undesirable.

Travis Van Oosbree 18:40

I remember talking to my brother and my mom who were both very skeptical about the idea of a unicorn role. Like, every job has its drawbacks. Every job has a thing where you're not going to like it. Every job... so I don't want you to get your hopes up and get really disappointed when you're not able to find...

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:01

To be clear, a unicorn role, it's not perfect. There is no perfect. But like a unicorn, most people don't believe that this is possible to find work that fits.

Travis Van Oosbree 19:11

And I was like, "No, no, no. You have to believe that it's out there, or else, you kind of stop fighting for yourself. You kind of resign yourself, too. I guess this is as good as it gets..."

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:23

Which ends up unsettling, right?

Travis Van Oosbree 19:25

Exactly. And so I was a real... I was in. I had to believe that it was out there, or else I was just going to stay exactly where I had been for last 10 years. The thing about the Social Goldilocks was it just opened a lot of doors. And you didn't have to necessarily walk through every door, but they're open now, and I can turn and go into another one at some point, if I choose.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:58

Just to give you a little backstory here, what we call the Social Goldilocks approach is having many conversations, sometimes short conversations, to find what feels just right. It creates options that extend well beyond your immediate job search. And as Travis points out, these relationships become assets that you can leverage throughout your entire career, plus it's more fun to do it this way. Travis invested all this energy that probably would have been wasted otherwise on applying to many, many jobs. Instead, he put it in conversations that provided continual, genuine insight. It allowed him to build potentially lifelong relationships with people that could help him navigate to his target industry. And it paid off. The question I wanted to know, what does Travis suggest for anyone who's considering a career change?

Travis Van Oosbree 20:43

Don't be afraid to, like, just make that really awkward connection. Because, you know if you don't, you're right where you are, and if you do, you know, maybe after that conversation, you'll still be right where you are, but maybe, you'll be somewhere further along in the road.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:07

I think Travis is right to reframe networking from something uncomfortable to something low risk and potentially high rewards. But even if it is low risk, you don't have to do it alone. That's where we can help. If you're ready to make a career change or a job change, we'd love to support you. Send me an email, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com just put 'Conversation' in the subject line. Just take a moment right now. Pull out your email, put it on your phone. You don't even have to put anything in the body of the email. Just drop 'Conversation' in the subject line. I'll connect you to my team, and we'll figure out the very best way that we can help.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:43

All right, we've got much more for you next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Take a look at what we've got coming up next week.

Speaker 3 21:49

There becomes a point in life where you have to decide, "Can I continue on this path? Or do I have to decide that it's time for me to be some and do something different?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:58

"My degree is useless outside my profession." That's the message I received from a chiropractor wanting to make a career change. After years of specialized education and practice, he felt pretty trapped by his specific training, and it's a sentiment I hear all the time from professionals with specialized careers– lawyers, dentists, nurses, accountants. Once you've invested years in a specific path, it's easy to feel like you're locked in forever. But what if everything you thought you knew about your career options was wrong? For example, the idea that your specialized degree limits you, not so much. Or the belief that your skills won't transfer, that's not what we find at all. Or the fear that you're going to need to start over. In fact, we see the very opposite.

Edna 00:00

I just didn't have the autonomy that I know I needed, in retrospect, to thrive. So after a year in, I said, "That's it." They were shocked, but I was not. Because I was actually, between you and I, was miserable because I wasn't enjoying it. I was busy. But for me, the work was not... it wasn't meaningful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:22

What happens when you know you need a change in your career and you're trying to figure out what's right for you? For many of us, the uncertainty of what comes next can be absolutely paralyzing. In this episode, we're exploring how understanding your values and your unique strengths can become the foundation for navigating career transitions, even when you're facing moments of doubt and uncertainty.

Edna 00:45

And I had to ask myself the question, "Do you see yourself here?" I've been confirmed for my next role. They told me where I was likely to go. You know, if within the organization, they shared their plan to me. I knew they were planning for me. And it didn't feel right for me to stay there if I didn't see a future for myself. And then, besides that, I said, "I was miserable." So, one day it's scary. So initially, when you do it, it's very liberating. I'll tell you that. Quitting a job, it's a very liberating feeling.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:20

That's Edna. After spending 19 years as a scientist with a consumer packaged goods company, she was recruited by another organization that seemed promising. They made it obvious that she was valued. The entire time that she was there, she certainly was appreciated. But after just one year, she realized it was still a terrible cultural fit. So she made the bold decision to quit without having another job lined up. What followed is her journey through uncertainty, self-discovery and ultimately finding work that truly aligns with her strengths and her values. There's no question. You're going to hear how Edna pushed through her career changed out. That's a routine part of any great story. But the real question is, how did she use the scientific approach to finding meaningful work, and how did she use her strengths in the process of finding an innovation leadership role, especially one that felt tailor made for her? Okay, here's Edna again. She's explaining how her career led up to this latest transition.

Edna 02:22

I have a PhD in chemistry, and I was literally hired out of the lab. I was doing my postdoc, and the company came on campus to recruit, and then I got the job. And it was, I honestly say, I had an awesome time because, in retrospect, I change jobs every three to four years, on the most part, and I change jobs into something that was different enough, challenging enough to allow me to learn and grow. So for example, I started off my first job was formulating laundry detergents, and I did that for four years, and then I moved on to formulating cleansing liquids– the body washes your liquid enhancer. But I did that for three years. It's getting water out of my mind. I moved to formulating under antiperspirants, and all of this was in North America.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:19

Okay. I think it's safe to say that her first company provided great opportunities for growth. So when she was eventually recruited to this other company, I already mentioned, it didn't take long for her to discover that her career change had been a mistake. But the real question is, why?

Edna 03:35

Culturally, it was just not a fit for me. So, and this is coming into the values as well, right? I, in retrospect, realized that I thrived when I had autonomy. So and I didn't realize that the 19 years of my previous company, I had a lot more autonomy than I felt I had in this new environment. I was extremely busy again. It was a growing industry. The company was doing awesome, but I just didn't have the autonomy that I know I needed, in retrospect, to thrive. So after a year in, I said, "That's it." They were shocked, but I was not. Because I was actually, between you and I, was miserable because I wasn't enjoying it. I was busy. But for me, the work was not... It wasn't meaningful. I was doing a lot of work, for my taste, it wasn't meaningful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:33

As my team got to know Edna, one of the parts that really stood out to us was how she approached understanding her strengths. Most people will go through, they will take assessments, they will do some deep dive, they'll do some reflective exercises when they're trying to understand their strengths. However, Edna took this to a whole another level. She brought the scientific approach to analyzing her own strengths data.

Edna 04:57

Yeah. So I'm visual, clearly. And so the colors for me helped. And the Gallup StrengthsFinder already had that sort of color code. So I took that color code and sort of matched it with what my feedback with Gallup strengths. And it was interesting because I was also a little bit about apprehensive about getting feedback, because I've done enough assessments at this point in my career. You know, and I thought I understood me. But I took a step back and said, "Hey, this is from a different lens." And I like that the questions that you reach out to people, folks with are all positive, right? So I took the opportunity to seek feedback from people that have managed me, people who I have managed, people who've been my peers or my stakeholders, and I did it from the US, India, and China, the scientists. So this is the one data that represents.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:53

Let's get a significant sample size. Let's represent enough data. Let's get...

Edna 05:57

On every level, I don't want it to be by. So yeah, I guess there are some scientists in, right? A lot of scientists. And then you've done the StrengthFinder assessment, and I got my top five strengths. It was so fascinating to see when the feedback came that my strengths are my strengths. They were saying exactly what Gallup StrengthFinder was saying in different words. They express it in their Mexican way, in the American way, or in the Indian way. But what they were saying about me is me. So I'm very consistent.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:35

What Edna is referring to here is a strategy for strengths awareness that allowed her to visually see patterns emerge. We refer to this strategy as strengths feedback analysis. The idea is you collect feedback from a variety of people and use a process to analyze what strengths people perceive as most valuable or most useful. Edna asked 25 friends and coworkers these questions. She did it by email, conversation, text. Question number one, "How would you introduce me to a friend?" Question number two, "What are my three best qualities?" Question number three, "What is something that I could help people with?" She also asked one more question.

Edna 07:17

One of the questions I asked is, "What things become easy for me that others struggle with? What do you think I could teach others?" And the consistency that came out of those, that feedback for me just solidified that understanding and appreciation of my strengths. And also, at some level, helped me not to minimize because you see, individualization is my number one, and I'm like, it's just what I do. You know, but it has value, and it was so clear to me from the feedback I got from people around the world that it has value. So for me, that, yeah, it was such a great exercise. So I loved it. What I found, for me, in retrospect, is this exercise really anchored the process. It's because you have to start by understanding what it is you're good at, where that comes from, and you will then be able to appreciate, hopefully, for the individuals listening, is the successes you've had and the contribution, which is in your career, and the contribution that your strengths have had towards that success. Because I bet you, they're rooted in your strengths. The successes you had are rooted in your strengths. But until you're able to sort of step and see that link, you may not fully appreciate it. So what again, for me, one of the great things about this whole process is, I walk away with a deeper understanding and appreciation of my strengths, and the process is rooted. It starts there. It starts with understanding the strengths, which is again, so basically, I've done this before, but I've never done it like this, never done it like this. And I said appreciation, and the choice to leverage my strengths even more in the future. So not only do I walk away with appreciation and understanding, there is a very deliberate decision and the intention to leverage moving forward, because more success would come out of that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:20

Once all the feedback is collected, then you categorize and analyze the data to influence your understanding of your strengths, you can see those patterns emerge. Edna did a great job of this. She took it to a whole nother level by creating a color coded system to analyze all of the feedback that she received, and this allowed her to recognize and apply her strengths in her career and throughout the rest of her life. I asked Edna to explain how this understanding of her strengths regularly shows up for her.

Edna 09:50

For me, I think, one, it helps me on a day to day. So I actually understand myself better. Sometimes when I'm in situations and I'm struggling a bit, it helps certain things, I'm like, "Oh, I can understand why this is off for me, because I'm missing XYZ." And, for example, I'm an achiever, right? And sometimes I like to procrastinate, and I've discovered just put on a list. If I put it on a list, it's going to get done because the achiever in me will ensure that thing is checked off the list, right? Little tricks like that, exactly the little tricks like that. I think the biggest one for me, though, is leaning into my individualization during the process. And I'm sure it'll show up on the job what, you know, as I've taken up this new role. But because of what I discovered, and I'm going to fast forward to the experimentation phase, there was a lot of emphasis in the experimentation modules around making sure you're connecting with whomever you're reaching out to.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:07

One of the most valuable insights Edna gained was recognizing how her top strengths of individualization how it shows up for her day to day throughout her whole life, and how she could use it as a strategic advantage in networking and interviews and other interactions.

Edna 11:24

So if you're reaching out via email, or if you're reaching out via phone, make sure you understand who it is you're talking to, try to spend some time connecting. And, honestly, I struggled with that a bit because I'm here to get some information, I don't have time to connect. What I realized is, because of my individualization, I'm inherently curious about people. And what I realized is, to the extent that you can connect, it impacts the transaction. Every interaction has a transaction and a connection. The quality of your connection can impact your transaction. So for me, just focusing on trying to... And I'll step back. I'll give you an example of even going into interviews. In the past, I would want to get through the interview, and interviews usually come quite naturally for me, but I'll be so focused on the interview. And as a result of going through this process, it shifted a bit. I go in and try to understand who's on the other side of the interview, who is this person who's talking to me? So have the conversation. The interview will happen. We know we're both here for an interview. None of us don't forget to get that part in. But spending the time upfront to connect was a shift for me, and seeing how that connection then, in turn, impacts how the interview happens. And I've done it, yes, within the interview space, but even outside, you know, you go to a restaurant and you're waiting for a table, and you're talking to the hostess. In the past, you know, I wouldn't really bother to stay or to wait. But now you have, okay, it looks like you're busy today. How's the house? Just spend a minute. Spend a minute connecting. Because that connection oftentimes impacts the transaction. The tables come up on you, "Would you be willing to...?" It's just little things. And recognizing that because I'm inherently wired to connect to people, connect to people, so that in somehow, individualization is my number one. So I would do it anyway, but being mindful of, you know, one, it's a strength. Two, it's not work for me. And people are people on the other side of any interaction as a person. And that person, you know, try to get to know that person a little bit. You may not, you may have hours, you may have seconds, spend a minute, spend a second to connect.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:57

During her career transition, Edna experienced what every single career changer faces, those moments of doubt, those moments of uncertainty, when it feels like nothing is happening, it's not moving fast enough, nothing is working. And she describes this challenging period.

Edna 14:12

So I had a big crisis, I would say. I've won one big one. And it wasn't... So I started working with Ben in October, about three months in, moved to working with coach. I was good. I was good. Done with my schedules. I told you, Tuesday and Thursday was set aside for getting the work done. And we got through the work. And now we go into experimentation phase. And we get into experimentation phase, I tell my coach, then, "I think it's going to look different for me. Are you game?" He's like, he's game. But what that ended up looking like was I didn't have Tuesday things to do on Tuesday and Thursday. I mean, up until that time, I had things Tuesday and Thursdays were blocked out. I had my work to do, and I knew... So, Tuesday would come and I'm like, "Oh, okay." And week one was fine. Week two was fine. Week three, I'm like, "What the heck did you just do to yourself?" Right? So we're about four months in, and things got slow, and you start to ask yourself, "What are you thinking?" Right? So it was January. That was challenging. That was quite challenging. And I remember talking to Ben, I said, "Should I just start applying for jobs?" And he's like, "You're so close. I can't tell you where it's coming. Where it's going to come from, but it's going to come." And he was right. I mean, literally, after that coaching session, it was a week later, and couple of really good opportunities, really good opportunities came my way, but I had to get comfortable just sitting in that unknown, sitting in that unknown. But for me, the trigger was going from a structure to having less to do, actively do on my end, and feeling that, and being four months in without a paycheck, you know, you feel it, you start to just feel it. And even though, you know, just have to feel that unknown of how long, you know, how long is this thing going to take.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:19

Eventually, Edna found an opportunity that aligned perfectly with what she had identified as important to her. In this case, it was a role in innovation leadership that provided the right types of challenge and right types of growth.

Edna 16:31

What makes it a great fit is that it's an innovation. So I'm staying within research and development, which is what I love. I love working with scientists, or within the science space. I am going to lead innovation. This is what I love to do. I love to lead innovation. Because, as I said, one of my things is about one of my values is learning and growth. And the beauty about innovation is that you're not doing exactly the same thing repetitively. You're constantly pushing and learning and trying something differently or doing something totally different altogether. In addition to that, what I love about this opportunity is that the company as a whole is pivoting, but one that wasn't necessarily innovation focused, to one that wants to be a lot more innovative.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:23

Ah, so time and place is an important part of this for you, too,

Edna 17:27

As well. They don't know how to do it quite, hence, people like me coming in. I don't know them. I don't know their segment, so we're going to have to figure it out, but they're open.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:40

You can see how Edna came full circle from a cultural misfit at the last organization to finding, not just a job that masters skills, but an environment that truly aligned with who she is at her core.

Edna 17:53

I talk to, it just feels like interviewed with, it just feels like it's my tribe. When one of the things that along the way, when the coaching journey is, I need to find my... You used to tell me, you need to find your tribe. I need to find my tribe. You know, when you're talking to them, I'm like, "This is my tribe. These are my people. They approach leadership the same way that I do. This is my tribe." So very much looking forward to having the autonomy to drive, lead, shape the future of an organization that's working in a very meaningful space. For me, yeah, that's changing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:45

What I love about Edna's story is how she transformed a period of uncertainty. At the beginning of this episode, I mentioned the uncertainty, and this is what I love most about Edna's story. She transformed this period of uncertainty into an opportunity for self-discovery. By taking the time to truly understand her strengths and what she actually wanted and what she needed from her work environment, she was able to find a role that felt tailor made for her. When you're in the middle of a career transition, a change, job search, anything, it's easy to immediately begin focusing on what job title do you want, or what industry should you target. Those things are easy. But as we know, and what Edna discovered, the most important work is figuring out what ideal means to you, figuring out what extraordinary looks like. Otherwise, you're not going to get there. By getting specific and using, in this case, Edna strengths to guide her decisions, Edna and found her way to work that actually fits. And if you've listened to very many episodes of the Happen To Your Career podcast, you know that this is the entire reason our company exists, to help you find meaningful work that actually fits what you're looking for. Help you build the life you want and figure out how work fits within it. So if you're ready to take control of your career journey and find work that aligns with your strengths, we'd love to help. All you have to do is just pause this right now and drop me an email– Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just shoot me an email, put 'Conversation' in the subject line. Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. I'll connect you with my team, the specific team member who can help with your unique situation. That's all you need to do. Drop me an email right now.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:25

All right, here's what's coming up next week right here on Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 3 20:29

Don't be afraid to, like, just make that really awkward connection because, you know, if you don't, you're right where you are, and if you do, you know, maybe after that conversation, you'll still be right where you are, but maybe you'll be somewhere further along in the road.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:52

If you've ever been in an emergency situation, you know how chaotic it can feel, especially if there's panic and distractions. Doing something like screaming, "Help. Help!" rarely works. What emergency responders learn is that you need to give clear, specific instructions. "You in the pink shirt. Call 911, right away." "You in the corner. Bring me a towel." This principle applies in everyday life too. If my wife asks, "Can somebody take out the trash?" And she shouts it out into the abyss of our house, my three teenagers will do their best to assume she's talking to a different one of them. Nobody moves. But when she says, "Camden, please take out the trash before dinner", suddenly there's clarity and action. Studies show that this specificity carries beyond emergency situations and household chores, probably not a surprise, knowing what you want and being extremely clear is the best way to get what you want because when you know what you want, it becomes easier to ask for it, and when you ask for what you want, strangely enough, you get what you want more often.

Kristen Rocco 00:00

I surprised myself completely with my reaction to it because I feel like the old Kristen would have been really scared, fearful, anxious, overwhelmed, like, "Oh no, what do I do now?" But I flew. Actually the day I got laid off, the very next day, I had a family wedding in Florida that I was flying to, and so I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is great. I just got laid off, and I get to go party with all my family now. How amazing."

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:39

We've been taught that a layoff is something to fear, a career setback that leaves you scrambling for what comes next. But what if I told you that a layoff might be exactly the catalyst you need to create a career that you've wanted all along? Instead of a door closing, it's the universe kicking open the door that you've been too hesitant to walk through on your own.

Kristen Rocco 00:58

I think that it happened to me this time because, finally, my mind was open and had wanted to go in another direction, and this was like the kick in the pants to just do it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:09

That's Kristen Rocco. She'd been in PR, communications, marketing for the entirety of her career, but she was starting to feel completely burned out and no longer aligned with her role. By this time, she was pretty sick of feeling stuck. She knew deep down that a change was absolutely necessary, so we got to work with her to figure out what her next steps were. And just as she was making progress on what more fulfilling work could look like for her, she was unexpectedly laid off. Here's the interesting thing, though, because she had gotten ahead on career change work to define what she wanted, Kristen was able to look at this as an opportunity rather than a disaster. She'd already done the groundwork, and now she could fully embrace what she had built, which in this case, happened to be her very own content marketing business. In just a minute here, you're going to get to hear how Kristen got unstuck, how she figured out what she wanted to pursue next, and how she decided on her own business. Here's Kristen sharing where her career first began.

Kristen Rocco 02:10

So I started 15 years ago in PR, which is how I got my first step into this, you know, area of marketing, and I was, you know, planning and producing and helping my clients tell their stories in the press. And it was a really interesting time to start in marketing broadly and then PR, specifically, because the space was evolving in such a fast way. So when I came into PR, social media was just getting going, and so we were taking advantage of social media for business and trying to figure out how businesses could benefit from social media outreach to their potential audiences. So got, you know, my hands dirty with that. And then again, about five years later, content marketing was kind of new to the scene, and then it was like, "Oh, wow. You know, in addition to reaching out to the media with pitches and story ideas, we can actually write these stories and produce these articles for our clients, and create editorial calendars and build out, you know, all of their own media for them." So I was able to get into that kind of early on and out the gate. And so, you know, that's kind of how my career went over the first eight years. And then I decided that, you know, after I moved from New York City to Atlanta, I decided to take a break from corporate America for a while and start a new business called Love Notary, where I brought storytelling to the wedding industry and started helping engaged couples document their love stories. And so it was a really interesting business because I was able to define a new category in the wedding industry, right? There was, you know, I don't know if you're familiar with the New York Times vows section, but it was kind of like that, but bringing it to a more... to the more general market, right? Because that was kind of for fluent, elite celebrities and people to get their stories told in that way. And I just thought that it was cool to give engaged couples this legacy throughout their wedding planning process. So I did that for a couple of years full time, and then I decided again to go back into corporate America, this time really trying to focus on content marketing just because, in addition to the creativity of the storytelling, I also have a real business mindset and very strategic mindset. And so it was cool to me that I could couple the creativity with the business side of it and create these drive leads for businesses through their content marketing approaches. So that is kind of what took me through the 15 years of my career and then reached out to you all to help me think about what my next transition would be.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:20

Okay. One of the most challenging parts of a career transition is recognizing when it's time to make change. For Kristen, this realization came from a growing feeling of misalignment with her work environment, not the work itself, but the culture and structure around it. Her story shows that sometimes it's not about changing what you do, but about how and where you do it. By the way, this is something I've noticed repeatedly in high performers, they often love their actual work, but hate the environment or structure or something else about it.

Kristen Rocco 05:53

Yeah, I think it was a particular event over time. In my last job, I started to feel really out of alignment with, not the role–I loved what I was doing. Of course, you can see I'm very passionate about my space, content marketing and storytelling, but the way in which we operated as a team felt very out of alignment with how I wanted to do my work. And that took a while to come to a realization that it wasn't me that didn't fit into that equation, that company didn't fit into my equation. If that makes sense. I think I took a lot of... it took me a while to depersonalize it from, you know, "Oh, this is me. I just need to find how I can fit in and get it right." Versus, like, "No, I'm never gonna get it right. You know, this isn't the right environment for me." And so that's kind of what led me to Happen To Your Career, and I did a lot more discovery around those themes while I was, you know, doing the coaching, but initially, it was because I felt very out of alignment with my role and the team, I guess. I mean, I think it was feeling demoralized on a day to day basis. I think it came down to healing. But if I were to think about it from more tactical points, I think I had a lack of control over my calendar. There were meetings, six hours a day, that, you know, people just plopped on my calendar. Or, you know, and I can't shut all responsibility, or I would need to have meetings because we had, you know, so many things to do that were all conflicting priorities that needed to be done at once, or at, you know, in relatively the same amount of time. And so we just needed to get the work done, and it caused a lot of overwhelm and, you know, locked up my calendar so that I spent the majority of my days in meetings and not having enough focus time to complete my actual work. And I think, you know, that day after day after day causes burnout, and then also not, you know, I think that culture plays into it a lot, too. And I think that the culture that was at this organization was a very challenging culture, not necessarily a culture of praise and complementary culture. And for me, I have thick skin. I worked in PR for eight years, and had to get rejections almost every single day, multiple times a day, so that wasn't the case. But, you know, everybody needs a sense that they're moving in the right direction and they're doing great things, otherwise, they're just not going to feel satisfied in their job. And this culture didn't allow for me to feel like I was recognized for my best work. And so the combination of those things made me know that I needed to make a switch.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:11

When you're stuck in a role that's draining you, it can be very difficult to imagine something better. And this, by the way, is what we call the merry go round of repetitive despair. In Kristen's case, her experience perfectly demonstrates how burnout and daily overwhelm can shut down your ability to dream and completely stop your ability to be curious about future possibilities. You get so focused on surviving each day that you just can't see beyond it. You can't imagine something beyond it. Breaking through this mental block is often the first hurdle in what we call intentional career change.

Kristen Rocco 09:45

Yeah, I think I've said this a couple times, too, in a variety of different situations. I think that my brain was so locked into a daily, just like, demoralized capacity, if that makes sense. And so seeing opportunity was challenging initially, and understanding what possibilities was challenging initially. Being curious, my coach would ask me, "What are you curious about?" And I remember thinking, "I don't know. I don't know what I'm curious about." Because I was just so focused on getting through every day and then trying to, you know, relax and power myself up for the next day that I really didn't spend enough time thinking about all of those other things, right? So those were some challenges initially, is just getting out of my own way, basically, and removing the blockers of what I was currently sludging through, because it did feel like a sludge to see that a brighter possibility on the other side of it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:04

Okay, Kristen did a great job here. Because once she began breaking free from the daily grind mentality, she started focusing on how she wanted to feel in her work, rather than just what title or role or occupation she wanted. This shift in perspective from job titles to desired experiences is often a crucial turning point in creating truly fulfilling work. It also illustrates a misconception that we see all the time. People will often come to us thinking that they need to figure out what job title they want next, but what they really need is to understand what experience they want to have.

Kristen Rocco 11:39

Yeah, so initially, I was following the modules, you know, and going through the progression to get to the ideal career profile. And I was serious about that, right? Like it wasn't just something that I was trying to get through. I was actually putting time, attention, and detail into those questions and trying to think about what I wanted to be doing and how I wanted to approach the work. And I'll say that I didn't necessarily know at the time that I wanted to do what I'm doing now, which is consulting, but I knew how I wanted to feel, right? That was a big factor in trying to figure out the next step. And then I think what I did was I tried to think about how I wanted to feel on a day to day basis, and connect that to organizations that could help me feel that way. And so, you know, looking for organizations that publicly, I guess, had a great culture, and then privately trying to suss out whether that was true. And then, you know, really thinking when I was in interview processes, interviewing them as much as they were interviewing me to make sure that I wasn't, you know, that the culture was going to be really aligned with who I am. Again, that's what I felt out of alignment at my other job. Or maybe I never felt out of alignment with it, which is more than just not knowing what I was getting into when I joined, initially. And, you know, some things changed along the way as well. So that all kind of plays in as well. But so the, you know, thinking about how I wanted to feel, and thinking about culture fit that would be the right place for me, and then also I was like, "Maybe I want to work for a mission driven company, or something that was more connected to a bigger... something that had a little bit bigger meaning and purpose than the organization that I was in at the time." And so that's how I started, and then, you know, I think once I started answering those questions and putting more focus and energy into it, I was able to kind of identify companies and other things that way.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:05

Visualization is a powerful tool that you've probably heard–athletes use, Olympians, people at the top of their game, CEOs, in many different ways. What we don't talk about is it's also very useful for defining the career and life that you want to build by creating a detailed picture of what your ideal work day, work week, looks like. You can identify patterns. You can identify themes that point to what truly matters to you. In order to create clarity, you must declare your priorities. You can't find clarity like it's something just hiding under the couch. And Kristen's experience with this exercise helped reveal her desire for meaningful connection and empowering others. And this is exactly the kind of insight that helps you move from, "I don't really know what I want", to a very clear vision that you can act on. It's not always about the vision itself. It's about the act of going through and practicing defining the vision.

Kristen Rocco 15:05

But I also then, you know, started to... The visioning worksheet really sticks out in my brain, actually, because it was all about, you know, "What do you envision your typical day to be like?" And again, I gotta tell you, I was like, "Oh man, I haven't thought about this in so long or in this way that what is even possible, you know? When I close my eyes to imagine it, what would I even think?" But I was able to get through that and really come up with something that I thought would really fulfill me. And so, you know, I talked about in there, "I would like to have a variety of conversations with interesting people, and be able to share my insights with them, and have them share their insights with me, so that we can collaboratively bring more into the world, you know, more learnings, more opportunity into the world to help educate people and help them along on their journeys." And I said, "I wanted to work with a variety of different types of people", and I can't remember all the specifics in there, but basically, it was a lot of connecting with people. It was a lot of empowerment messaging and just inspiring people as well. And so then that helped me think a little bit more about myself, I suppose, and what my values are. And my coach helped me too, right? She, you know, looked at the visioning statement, pointed out some of the themes, yeah, she pointed out some of the themes to help reflect that to me what I was saying, like, "Oh, this to me, sounds like you, you know, want to blah, blah, blah." And so I was like, "Oh, yeah, that really does resonate. I love how you sum that up. That speaks to me." And then we talked about like, "Okay, well, what are my values?" And getting more into the personal side of things and less on the business side of things, to kind of help bridge both of them together. And so then through that process, I was able to make a lot of progress.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:22

Okay, so this is where the unexpected twist came in. Just as Kristen was making progress and defining her next steps, she got laid off. But rather than seeing this as a setback, she viewed it as the perfect opportunity to move forward with what she'd been preparing for. This mindset shift is what turned a potentially negative situation into a catalyst for positive change. And I've seen this pattern play out over and over again. What seems like a disaster is often the exact push people need to make the leap into something that they've been contemplating. Whatever it is. Whether it's building your own business, whether it is making a change to something else, whether it is leaving a set of people or relationships and finding the right people that you want to spend your time around. No matter what it is, it's what I call the second trigger that propels people into action when they reach their fed up point. The first trigger is realizing you're unhappy, but sometimes you need an external event to really make the career change happen.

Kristen Rocco 18:21

At the beginning of the year, in January, my first session with Phillip, he said to me, like, he's like, "As you reflect back on the year, or, you know, 2022, what would you tell yourself, you know, at the start of all of this, that you wish you would have known?" You know, something to that effect. And I said, "I would have quit my job", or something like that. So I think I spoke this layoff into existence, to be honest. But yes. I worked in a technology company, and I think, you know, kind of February was a time where there, and still there's a lot of volatility, and there's a lot of speculation on what's going to happen. And so, you know, my company did lay off some people, and I was part of that. It was the first time I had been laid off in my career. And I surprised myself completely with my reaction to it, because I feel like the old Kristen would have been really scared, fearful, anxious, overwhelmed, like, "Oh no, what do I do now?" But I flew. Actually, the day I got laid off, the very next day, I had a family wedding in Florida that I was flying to. And so I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is great. I just got laid off, and I get to go party with all my family now. How amazing." And so it was just a choice that I made to not live in that, like, quote, what I consider or how I can relate it to, like, "playing small". I'm going to embrace this, and I've done a lot of work over the last eight months to push myself and know myself better, to go into the right next fit for me, so I'm going to make a choice to not do things the old Kristen way and celebrate this that it's my, you know, it's just that push forward to the next best version of myself. And so I took the weekend dancing away at the wedding and then came back here.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:49

Rather than dwelling on the layoff and playing the victim, Kristen immediately translated her self discovery work into action, and this is exactly what separates happy high achievers from everyone else. Her quick pivot to building her own business shows the importance of being prepared mentally for a change, even if the timing isn't what she expected. Think about it, if Kristen hadn't already done the groundwork to understand what she wanted, she might have desperately jumped at the first job opportunity that came along, regardless of fit.

Kristen Rocco 21:17

And I guess five days later, when I got back, I started creating my consulting website and putting together, you know, not necessarily business plan, but my thought processes on how I was going to go to market with a new content marketing consulting business, which kind of comes full circle around why I now call myself a storytelling entrepreneur. Because I have weaved in and out of corporate America, but I started the Love Notary business, which is storytelling in the wedding industry. And now I'm doing my own business again, this time focused on content marketing support for businesses. And so I'm just really excited about this next chapter. But yeah, it all kind of led to an unexpected conclusion, because I didn't obviously, I wouldn't have thought that I was going to be laid off. I thought I would make the transition myself, but it was honestly probably the kick in the pants I needed. Because I don't know... I was still very scared to quit myself without having complete confidence and what the next step looked like for me. And now I didn't have a choice. I had to get this website stood up, put thought process into how he's going to deliver services to my clients, and get the word out. And I'll say that I launched my business about a month after I was laid off, and after that, I was fortunate enough to real and great and I can't be more grateful for the people who showed up for me and my network, but I got a lot of referrals, and I now have a couple of clients that I'm working with full time. So I'm really excited about it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:04

Okay, if you're listening to this podcast and listen to more than one episode, I'm sure you already know that mindset dramatically impacts our ability to navigate transitions. In Kristen's case, her shift from scarcity to abundance thinking enabled her to see possibilities rather than problems, which, turns out, was crucial for a successful pivot here.

Kristen Rocco 23:24

I want to say, like going back to my strengths, like, I'm an achiever. I'm going to do all the work, and I'm going to put in all the activities, and so what first had to happen for me to be able to do what I did was a mindset shift. And so I know, you know, we talked about it in terms of a choice that I made to be optimistic, to know that there were possibilities out there, to not let overwhelm and fear get in my way. And that was a really important shift for me. I really had previously, you know, kind of operated out of a scarcity mindset, and I was able to finally make an adjustment to an abundance mindset. And so that was really important for me, but my achiever mode and my ability to just keep pushing and excelling, got me to this place where, "Okay, I now have no work to return to tomorrow, so I have to guide what I'm going to do." And I said to myself, "I could submit resumes every day, or I could try to get new business and submit proposals as frequently as I could, right? As much as I could generate interest." And so I chose to count on myself and go all in on me this time around, and not leave the decision making in the hands of a recruiter or a hiring manager, but rely on the fact that I've been doing this for 15 years and I know what I'm talking about, and I deliver great value to all of my clients I've had previously all the organizations I've been in, and do it for myself. And so that's what I chose this time around, to submit proposals.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:33

Running your own business comes with a, shall we say, unique set of uncertainties. I know this firsthand, not just from building Happen To Your Career, this is actually my fourth business, we've since started another one too. And Kristen got to learn a bit of this firsthand too. Kristen explains how she manages the inherent unpredictability of entrepreneurship by structuring her time and maintaining a positive mindset. Now these skills, of course, they're valuable for anyone navigating a career change, not just for people who want to own businesses. But what I love about Kristen's approach is that she's not just hoping things will work out. She's creating systems to ensure that they do, that's transferable everywhere. She's declaring her priorities and structuring her entire life around them. This is what happy high achievers do differently than anyone else. This is the part that allows them to be more happy more often.

Kristen Rocco 26:27

Yeah, that's a good point too, because when you are your own, you know, operating your own business, there is a lot of uncertainty, naturally, with this path. You know, I don't have the consistency of a paycheck every two weeks. These contracts will eventually come to an end, and I will be looking for new clients again. And I did need that shift in my mindset to be able to do this effectively because otherwise, you know, I could get way too knee deep or waist deep or shoulder deep into being scared of not getting new clients, to let that affect my work product with my current clients, right? Or, you know, however, that could manifest within my business and what I'm doing on a day to day basis. And so, but now I, you know, have everything sort of calendared out in terms of how I'm going to approach my time on a week to week basis. I have, you know, give a number of client hours that I need to fulfill weekly. And then I segment out, okay, you know, these are the couple of hours every week I'm putting towards new business, and I'm going to work on that, you know, this time this week. And I know I just can kind of feel it in my gut that things will work out. And even if they don't work out on my timeline, that laying those seeds always grows flowers. And so it's a matter of being patient and just continuing to plant the seeds or put one foot in front of the other to do the work that you know is going to produce the outcome that you want. So that's kind of where I am right now in terms of my mindset and approaching all of my responsibilities with, you know, as being a business owner.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:32

But here's a final question. What advice does Kristen have for anyone who is currently feeling stuck in their career?

Kristen Rocco 28:41

I think that the word... There's two words that come to mind for me when you ask me that question. The first word is stuck. I totally know how this person feels. They feel stuck in their current situation and unsure about how to get out of their situation. And then the other thing that's coming up for me is, recognizing that feeling is important, but also knowing that you can unstuck yourself by doing the work. And the work looks a lot like, you know, what we do in the program. But there's also another... There's another way that I look at this, and I've learned this through coaching as well. That’s the how, right? So, like, "How do I get to the next step? How do I find the job? How do I reach out to that recruiter?" You know, whatever the 'how' is, the 'how' isn't as important as the 'who', which is, I know what you coach through the program, right? And which is, it's all about reaching out to people to learn more and find out more about what they do, and making you know, expanding your network and making connections with people, so you can start evaluating these things. But the reward really is in the 'who', because that's how the 'how' comes. And so, you know, these people have... I just recommend that people think about, not about the process of the 'how', but who can they meet that is going to open their eyes up to what the possibility is. And so I think that my advice is focused on meeting people, asking a lot of questions, and building your connections, because it's the 'who' that's going to help you get from where you are today to where you want to go in the future.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:41

Hey, if you want support helping build the life that you actually want to and figuring out how work fits within that for you, that's what we do. It's what we do here every day. We can help you figure out what extraordinary looks like, not just what society tells you it should be. So, if you're feeling stuck in your current role, or you have a great situation, but you want to be able to be prepared for the future, and you're thinking way ahead, either way, we're here to help. Email me, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com, put 'Conversation' in the subject line. I'll connect you with the right people on our team who can help with your exact situation. Again, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com, drop me an email.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:18

Here's what's coming up right here on Happen To Your Career next week.

Speaker 3 31:21

I just didn't have the autonomy that I know I needed, in retrospect, to thrive. So after a year in, I said, "That's it." They were shocked, but I was not, because I was actually, between you and I, was miserable because I wasn't enjoying it. I was busy. But for me, the work was not... it wasn't meaningful.

Vivi Robadey 00:00

I knew I had a job that allowed me to do the things that were important to me. So why was I so unhappy? I could not point it out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:12

There's a fascinating career paradox that we've seen trap countless high performers. And whether your soul feels crushed despite having a perfect job on paper, or whether you have a great situation but you feel guilty for secretly wanting more, you've probably experienced this. The breakthrough here isn't finding a better version of what you have, but redefining what better actually means for you.

Vivi Robadey 00:42

So I had a long list of things that I didn't want to, but when I looked into things that I wanted to, they were all very vague. I wanted flexibility. I want a work-life balance. I want to be well paid. I wanted to be recognized for my talents. But what does work-life balance look like?

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:09

What does that even mean, right?

Vivi Robadey 01:11

What does that mean?

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:13

That's Vivi, who spent 12 years at the same financial services company, creating five different roles for herself as she identified needs within the organization and progressed to each one. From the outside, she had it all– a good salary, supportive colleagues, and the flexibility to visit her family in Brazil every year. But as time passed, she found that her creativity was increasingly stifled, and micromanagement was popping up everywhere. In a moment, you're going to hear my conversation with Viv,i and I want you to pay attention to her approach to career change. She didn't just jump to another job out of desperation. Instead, she paused to understand her strengths, what truly energized her and what she really actually wanted. We got to see this firsthand as we worked with her, and she transformed her vague wishes like more flexibility and better work-life balance, into very specific targets that aligned with her values, what she wanted the most, and her signature strengths. Today, Vivi works as a client service associate where her creativity and independence are celebrated. Here she is going back to where her career first began.

Vivi Robadey 02:25

Before I moved to the US, I felt that, professionally speaking, I knew what I would be doing for the rest of my life. Since a very young age, I knew I wanted to be a teacher, and I cannot express how much joy it would bring to me having those conversations where I would get something that was very complex for my friends in school, and help them to visualize in an easier way. And that was always something that was so natural to me. So when it came to my time to decide that I really needed to find a profession, I wanted to be a teacher. And that was my path through college. That's what I did. And I became a teacher. And I was a teacher in Brazil for 10 years, and I absolutely loved everything about it. So when I came here...

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:29

In the first place, what caused you to say, "Hey, I'm going to the US."

Vivi Robadey 03:33

My husband. So I met my husband in Brazil. He has dual citizenship. He's from an American family, but he was born here in the US. His family used to live in Brazil, and that's why he has, actually has recent citizenship. It's a long story, but anyway, so we met in Brazil. I was an English teacher there, and we met in a conference for English teachers, and after living in Brazil together for five years, he said, "It's now time for you to know my side of the world. And I think that we should give it a try. What do you think?" And that's how I ended up coming to the US. And it was a really interesting experience because I was already fluent in English. It was not something that language would be a barrier for me. I was, in a way, familiarized with American culture because we were living together. So I thought it would be an easy transition, and it was far from that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:53

What made it really difficult or different than what you expected?

Vivi Robadey 04:59

When I got here, many things came in. First was, I missed everything about home. And I didn't realize that even though I was very independent, independence here in the US means a completely different thing than what it means to me in Brazil. So I had to reframe that in my daily routine. So we had a period that I had to wait to change my status so I could start working. And I think the biggest part was exactly that everything, when I look back on my career, it was always about connections. It was always about networking, making friends, meeting people, and getting to know others that would look at me and say, "I can see something here. I believe in you. I believe in your skills. Let's try something." But because I was brand new here, I didn't have any friends, connections. That felt scary, actually terrifying. How am I going to use my tools, what I'm used to do to build those connections and relationships in a place that I don't know anyone? So I think that was the first most scary thing, that the scariest thing that I had to face.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:29

I'm curious, when you got here to the US, and in many ways, it was different than what you anticipated, what did your initial transition look like when you went from education into finance?

Vivi Robadey 06:46

Yeah, again, it was exactly what have always been in my life. It was knowing, being in the right place, meeting right people. I migrated to a Brazilian meetup group here in Denver, Colorado, and met some girls, and we are all talking about our struggles. And one of them, her husband, really wanted to learn Portuguese, and that's how I connected with him. And he is a financial advisor. And throughout our classes, and we built that relationship, that friendship, and he said, "Vivi, you have all the skills that I'm looking for in a person to help me manage my office. Were you interested in trying out?" And I said, "Why not? I need to work." And initially I thought I would go back and still be a teacher, but it was really hard the realization that I am a non-native speaker who is trying to teach English in the country of native speakers. So it was not very an easier path. And also, there was all the change in education, certificates, your diploma, take much longer. It was a longer process. And I always believe that education doesn't only happen inside a classroom. There's many ways to educate people. And when he explained to me what he did, it was the first glimpse to me that there's some room for education in there. You're teaching people how to manage their money. So maybe my skills in the classroom and my ability to connect with people and being pathetic can be used for this in this area. So that's how I entered the world of the financial advising system in the US.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:02

So what I'm curious about, though, is you spent, if I remember correctly, around 12 years in the same organization.

Vivi Robadey 09:11

In the very same company. Yes. But so I started working in the company in 2012 and I left last year, exactly when I realized that it was time for a change. But throughout those 12 years, I was not doing the same thing. Again, I have always been good at spotting needs. Places where or situations or roles that needed to be created or you would improve or streamline the processes and facilitate what they're trying to accomplish. So if you look at my resume, I had five different roles inside the company, and all of them I created for myself because I would find out they had projects, they wanted to achieve certain things, but didn't know how to do. And again, my ability as a teacher was to see that complexity and break down into things and actions, small actions, that we could actually transform an idea into something that it was an action plan. So every single role that I had inside that company, it was always, in a certain way, a creative role, because I was proposing something new to do what they were used to, but in an easier and more efficient way.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:01

So fast forward a little bit then. So you had this wonderful set of experiences after a very, very steep learning curve initially. And you spent 12 years in this organization in various different roles that you created, and it sounds like eventually something changed, and you must have realized that there were pieces of this situation that no longer served you. So I'm curious what those were, and what caused you to decide that you needed to make another transition 12 years later.

Vivi Robadey 10:59

Yeah, so I think that things started going down the hill when I didn't have more space to be creative anymore. That's when I realized that I was losing... There is no room for growth. I wanted to keep growing, but where I was, they were not ready for the next steps. And so instead of using my creativity and my problem solving skills, I started doing repetitive work because I had already implemented everything that it was possible to be implemented at the point. And don't get me wrong, there were room for growth. They were just not ready for it, and that's totally okay. As a business person, you have to evaluate, well, those are good ideas, but it's not the right time to implement them. And for a long, long time, that became a battle between me and my team and my work, because I kept pushing for that growth. But because they're not ready, they felt as I was being stubborn because I wanted to change. I have always been told that I'm a very forward thinker. I'm always two steps ahead. And if you just to give you a glimpse a little bit on the financial industry, the financial industry is very reactive, and at that time, for them, being reactive was okay. So that's when I started feeling that my soul was being crushed, and there was no more room for growth for me in there. And that's where I felt... and it becomes the guilt part because I had a good job, I had a healthy environment, I was not in a toxic relationship at work, I had the flexibility which was my top, my number one priority, I needed to go back to Brazil to visit my family. This has been like my thing since I moved here. I almost made my husband to sign an agreement with me as long as I can go back to Brazil annually, I can move in with you. And it's been 14 years. And yes, that's the deal. It's not the marriage license. It's, "Can I go back home every year?" And so I knew I had the job that allowed me to do the things that were important to me. So why was I so unhappy? I could not point it out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:32

I think that really is the situation so many people get into, where you're in this job, company, whatever, that was actually a really good or really wonderful situation, and then eventually you outgrow it, it's no longer serving you. And you have all of these wonderful elements, like in your case, you could go back to Brazil every year, and you had that level of flexibility. And I think most of us get really fearful of losing that, or if I'm going to make a change or if I'm going to do something different, that means I'm going to give this up. And I think that that's the place that so many of us get to. And I'm curious, was that your experience in this particular case, or...? So, tell me about that.

Vivi Robadey 15:22

Definitely. So I spent, I think I started feeling my first move to leave the company was actually back in 2019. That was the first wake up call, I would say, that I no longer fit in that environment. I needed to do something different. But at the time, I had a five year old kid, and I'm glad I didn't leave at that time, because soon enough, we had COVID. And actually that was what kind of helped me to move a little bit away, to put aside that feeling that it was so intense for me that I didn't fit any longer, and that in space, because we had to help so many people to navigate through COVID. So I was glad that I stayed for longer. And a few other changes with the company, we changed broker dealers, we went to another space. I had the chance to, again, to learn new things. So it felt that, "Okay. I think things will get better. Maybe I should just hold on a little bit." And if you ask all my friends and my husband, he'll say, "She was ready to go a long time ago. However, it was always that point." And if I'm making the wrong call, and if I don't find something that is at least as good as what I have now, it's not good, but it's not bad, so I should stay here. A lot of people would dream of having my position. Why am I being so stubborn that I should have something different? So it was an internal battle over at least four years. But I think that when the conflict started getting more intense and into 2023, and I saw myself shrinking. Waking up, I was never the person to wake up in the morning and dread going to work, and that's what it was happening to me. And I have always been a person who, look, I strive for balance. I'm not a workaholic, but I'm not a stay at home mom. I'm not, you know, the gym guru, but I need a little bit of everything. So balance for me was really important. And when my professional life started being unbalanced in the sense that I was not getting the excitement that I had, it doesn't mean that it was not hard sometimes, that I didn't struggle, that I had all the challenges that any person has in a professional life, but I was okay waking up every morning and go to work. When that was not happening, I knew that the pain of staying was bigger than actually the fear of living. That was the moment where I realized, no matter what happened, I have to go because, yeah, it might be a wrong call, but it might be a right call, and if it's the right one, and I'm missing out, I need to take the chance.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:00

So I'm curious, when you look back, do you think that you could have made that decision earlier, or do you think that you needed to go through those experiences to get to the point where you decided, "This is no longer a right fit for me, and I'm going to make a change."? Tell me a little bit about what you've learned out of that.

Vivi Robadey 19:19

I think that if I had left at that specific point, I would have just jumped into another job for the paycheck. Not that I was doing a meaningful thoughtful change of careers, which didn't happen to, we're going to get there, but it was not a change of career. But I was not able, or I was not mentally prepared to go through the hustle of self-awareness. Do the internal work to find out what really brought the spark in my eyes because, as I mentioned at the beginning, a lot of things that I do because you were so natural to me, and at that time, I didn't know about StrengthFinders. I didn't know about, "Now, look at your strengths and see how that fits in a position, on a role, in a professional role", everything was so natural to me. The coaching, the problem solving, the education, the guidance, I didn't see that as a value. For me, it was just who I was. So I could not picture how that actually affected my choices, my professional choices in life. I only knew at the beginning that I wanted to be a teacher. Period. Everything after that, I could not link my personal skills and my personal strengths to what I was so insisting on doing. So everything was just happened to happen, but it was not something that I was taking. I was aware of why I was making those movements.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:09

So that's so fascinating for you, in particular, because I think generally your strengths lend to looking forward into the future and anticipating and being more intentional. So I think it's so fascinating that for such a period of your career, it was... you weren't getting to operate in that same way how you do almost anything else, but weren't necessarily able to apply that initially to your career. So that's sort of, yeah, that's fascinating. So once you made that decision, and once you had your last day, what did your journey look like from there? Where did you, I'm going to call it the figuring out the next step portion, start?

Vivi Robadey 22:05

When I left, I had a long list of things that I knew I didn't want to. So I didn't want to be micromanage. Yes, but I-don't-want-to list. I don't want to be micromanagement anymore. I don't want to be filling out papers. I don't want to feel guilty when I take my vacation because the job is accumulating, and nobody else can do but me. So I had a long list of things that I didn't want to. But when I looked into things that I wanted to, they were all very vague. I wanted flexibility. I want a work-life balance. I want to be well paid. I wanted to be recognized for my talents. But what does work-life balance look like?

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:12

What does that even mean, right?

Vivi Robadey 23:14

What does that mean? What are my talents? What are my skills? What am I bringing to the table? So I knew I would not be able to get away from the situation. I could quit my job. Yes, it was not that hard. But not to get into that role, you know, that ball that I was just repeating the same thing again, I needed to look inward. I needed to understand myself first to be able to understand what I actually wanted and why I wanted. And that's when I found Happen To Your Career. I just went online and Google and I found the podcast. And I remember as if it was today, I hadn't taken notes of the episode, but it was an episode where every single word that she was saying, it felt like she was just describing my life. She had a good job. She had that conversation with her husband, and she didn't know. She just didn't know how to translate, how to name what she was looking for. And I started reading a book where he mentioned a quote that said, "An arrow without a target, never misses." So I knew I needed my target. I had the arrow, but I didn't have a target. And I was eager to find how could I create that target for me. And when I listened to that episode, it was life changing because I saw, "Hey, somebody did that. So there is a way to do that."

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:18

"So maybe it could be possible for me too."

Vivi Robadey 25:21

For me as well to figure that out. "What do I want?" That was that question. What do I really want? Because I think that my biggest fear was exactly that I would end up it could be a really good job again. It could be a good pay, but I was still feeling that lack of fulfillment inside me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:45

I, you know, I'm really interested, too, in how your ideas evolved, particularly around it. When we started talking here, you mentioned this idea of balance or flexibility, and my understanding is how you used to think about that is very different than how you think about that now. So what did you learn as you were going through trying to develop your target, or what we would call an Ideal Career Profile, what did you learn about what you needed for balance or flexibility?

Vivi Robadey 26:21

I would say that it's not that it's different. It was just incremented. I think I added more aspects into what I had as a basic thing. And then we can use the example of the minimums, the ideals, and the non-negotiables. So I think that my non-negotiables haven't changed. I still need the flexibility. I still need to be able to join my son's martial art game.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:50

Still need to go to Brazil on a yearly basis.

Vivi Robadey 26:52

Go to Brazil every year. Exactly. And but then I start adding other aspects as I recognize as I learn about my top strengths. This is where I understood that I needed a place that I can be independent, but also I can work in collaboration with others. We can brainstorm together, and we are in an environment where creativity is valued and is celebrated. That simplifying, optimizing, streamlining processes and deliveries are celebrated, and we are all working towards the same goal. For me, a different thing when you compare job scenarios in Brazil and in the US, one of the things here is it's all about what your title is. For me, has never been my title, It has always been how I fit in that job. So now that I have more clarity of my strengths, it's so easy for me to point it out where I fit and where I don't. So I was able to design what it was my ideal job, and it was not exactly about any specific company or any specific... When I decided to do my experiences, I was debating, "Should I focus on a company, or should I focus on a role?" But I lean towards the role because with a role, I could fit in and look what are the strengths required for you to perform that specific role. So for me, it was much easier having that to go and build my ideal profile career, rather than just focusing on a company that has good benefits and etc, I would go to my non-negotiables because then I could see the company's values also, what is my minimal income. But I had all of that in my previous job, and I was not happy. So that's why I pivot to the direction of I need to know what that role requires from me so I know if I will fit in, if it's what I'm looking for or not.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:30

You ended up, you did all that work, and you ended up at an organization, at a company that I think it's fair to say that you never expected to work for, is that accurate?

Vivi Robadey 29:47

Yes and no.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:49

Tell me about that. How did that come about then, and how did this happen?

Vivi Robadey 29:56

Actually, I worked with the company through my previous job. So it's a big institution here in the US, and my office was affiliated to that institution. And I was in the moment of experimenting. And one of the biggest fears that I had, it was the interview part of it. So I didn't know how it would perform in an interview. I had, as I mentioned, all my jobs and my job opportunities have always been out of the pattern. So I had never been formally, I've never applied to a job formally, and I had never been interviewed in a formal setting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:47

So that was new for you.

Vivi Robadey 30:47

So I was really worried about that. So I decided to start applying for positions just to practice what should they expect of an interview. How my nerves would work? How would that be able to perform well? Would I be able to come across and express myself as I wanted to? And I found this job, which was very interesting, because the company is not based in Colorado, and they said that for the right person, they were willing to do a remote job. That was also one of my non-negotiables. I wanted to work remotely. But my intention when I applied for that job, it was just to see how I would perform in an interview setting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:46

Interesting.

Vivi Robadey 31:46

But as the interviews went by, I got to know more and more about what they're looking for. It was exactly checking every single box of what I had it. They had at the department that they had gone through this transition, they were looking into being creative in implementing an educational program for new staff.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:12

Sounds weirdly familiar, right?

Vivi Robadey 32:14

Right. And I said, "Oh, my goodness. Is this real?" But I also,it felt really empowering to go on that interview knowing that I needed to interview them too, because I had my requirements, and they needed to prove to me that they were a good fit for me too. Because I think this is one of the biggest challenge for anyone in a situation that you're trying to find for your next step is when you do finally found a job that you believe it's a great fit, you will do everything to convince them that you are the right person, but you live outside the equation, something which is really important they need to convince you that they also are a good fit for you. And I think that going through the bootcamp gave me all the tools that I needed to go in that interview empowered. "This is what I need. And if it's not that way, I'm sorry. I appreciate your time and effort, but it's not what fits for me."And as you mentioned in many podcasts and even throughout the book, it's not about checking all the boxes and being the perfect fit. For instance, now I only have two weeks vacation, while before I had much more time, so I had to give up and negotiate a couple things. But just for the nature of my role and what I've been doing for this last two and a half months, and how much I have already learned, and things just keep coming and saying, "You're gonna have the opportunity to do that. If you are interested, you can grow that." So the feeling I have right now is that it's an unlimited situation where I can keep exploring and just growing. And I was blessed enough to have a manager who thinks exactly like me, too. And in our conversations about my former position, she said, "I can see where you felt the lack of stimulation, and you feel felt so frustrated, because for people like us, we need to exercise our creativity. We need to be able to implement and to move and to change. And no matter, everything... Changes are not easy. However, the reward that you get after the changes are so meaningful that it's so worth it to go through the hustle." So that's why we do it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:08

I love that. I am really interested in, as I think about your story too, is somebody who has... you've done a lot in your life. You move from a new country or move from a country to a new country, I should say. You switched industries. You developed roles for yourself along the way. You switched organizations again. What I'm curious about is what advice would you give to somebody else who is finding themselves in that same place that you were a few years ago, where you know that something is off and you know that you need to change, what advice would you give to that person?

Vivi Robadey 35:55

I would say the most important piece of everything is patience. This is not something that you can do overnight. And you will... As growth works, you are very uncomfortable, you get out of a comfort zone, and which is not easy, then you make tons of mistakes, you feel unsafe, you feel insecure, but then you start learning, you get the clarity, and that's when you start growing. So this is a path. It's not just across the street. It's a long walk. It can be intimidating. It can be scary, but I truly believe that the more that you work on yourself, you only can get positive results out of that. There's no way to be the other way around. Jumping from one position to another will not bring the fulfillment that you're looking for. So you need to stop. Give yourself the gift of time, and use that time in a proper way where you can first learn about yourself, learn what you want and why you want. And when you have clarity over that, you will notice that every step that you give moving forward will be intentional. So intention is very important, but intention can be, "I just want a better job." But what does a better job look like to you? So that's why inward work is so important. So we have to look within first. Do the internal job, face all the demons and self doubts and fears that you have, and then you can come out and see, "Okay, now I know what it's important to me. Now I know exactly what matters. I'm ready to move forward."

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:08

If you're at the point where you're ready to make your own career change and find a career that fits you, we'd love to help. Just drop me an email, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com, put 'Conversation' in the subject line, and I'll connect you with the right person on our team, they'll be able to have a conversation with you and understand the very best ways that we can support you in your situation. That's Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. And if you're absolutely loving these tips, these strategies, these stories, take a moment right now, hit the subscribe or follow button, and that way, every time we release an episode, you're going to get notified.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:07

All right, here's what's coming up on the very next episode of Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 3 38:49

I surprised myself completely with my reaction to it, because I feel like the old Kristen would have been really scared, fearful, anxious, overwhelmed, like, "Oh no, what do I do now?" But I flew. Actually the day I got laid off, the very next day, I had a family wedding in Florida that I was flying to, and so I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is great. I just got laid off, and I get to go party with all my family now. How amazing."

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:28

We've been taught that a layoff is something to fear, a career setback that leaves you scrambling for what comes next. But what if I told you that a layoff might be exactly the catalyst you need to create a career that you've wanted all along? Instead of a door closing, it's the universe kicking open the door that you've been too hesitant to walk through on your own.

Kate Gleason Bachman 00:00

I was quite disillusioned very quickly, and felt like I had made the biggest mistake of my life by becoming a nurse, even though this is something I had worked for. You know, it took me years to do the prerequisite courses and get prepared.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:14

We're taught that meaningful careers come from following your passion, but what happens when that path leads to a dead end? When your entire identity is wrapped up in your profession, admitting it's not working feels like erasing a part of who you are. I've noticed something that almost nobody talks about when it comes to a career change or a job change. Your job doesn't have to be all bad to not be right for you. The most powerful career breakthroughs often happen when you go from a career that has many positives into something that is a far, far better fit. But to do that, you have to have the courage to declare exactly what you want, even when it seems impossible. By the way, another misconception, sometimes the perfect career isn't about finding everything in one place, but instead it's creating the perfect combination for the life that you want to build.

Kate Gleason Bachman 01:08

I think what really drew me into the role of the nurse was the advocacy role. You know, that has always been something that's important to me. In doing the career change process, I was able to actually really hone in on that being kind of a core value of mine is to be an advocate.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:22

That's Kate Gleason Bachman. What's fascinating about Kate's story is that she made a significant change early in her career and decided to go back to school for nursing. But after a short time working as a nurse, she realized it just wasn't everything she had imagined. In fact, she felt a little bit duped because she couldn't care for patients the way that she thought she would be able to. So after hopping from organization to organization to find the right fit, she decided something had to give. Maybe it was time to make another career change. Maybe it was time to go after what she really wanted, even if that meant leaving nursing. I want to walk you through Kate's surprising journey of what actually fits her for her career. See, early on, Kate had identified a core value that guided her– social justice. This call to make a difference very much guided her initial career choices, and eventually led her to nursing as a way to advocate for others. And I think this happens to a lot of us. We start out with a value or a passion that feels right, and we follow it into a career or a job that seems to align.

Kate Gleason Bachman 02:29

In high school, I always had an interest in social justice issues, and I think from a young, young age, I knew that was going to drive the work that I did in some way. So I used to volunteer. I used to ride my bike to the next town over and then take the city bus to go. I'm from upstate New York, into Albany to volunteer at the Social Justice Center, which, you know, had all these different things going on. And I just knew that was kind of a world that I wanted to be a part of. So I ended up, you know, I went to college, and my first job out of college was working in public health research, and so I kind of found my way to, you know, public health as a way to, kind of work on social justice issues. And my first career change happened shortly after that, when I realized I worked there doing research, and then I actually worked for a training and technical assistance organization, not unlike the one that I work for now, actually, but at the time, I was really feeling like I wanted to be kind of closer to service delivery. So I was doing, you know, training and technical assistance and research, and I saw through visiting programs and health centers the work that nurses were doing and advocacy. And I was like, "Oh, I want to do that. I want to be a nurse."

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:52

Here's what I find happens with so many people. They have this vision or idea of what their career or occupation or company is going to be like, and they get into it pretty quickly without testing it out. And then the reality comes crashing down. When Kate enters nursing, she quickly discovers that healthcare in America was far different from what she had imagined. And I've seen the same pattern over and over again with many people, the reality gap between the expectation and the daily work can be absolutely crushing.

Kate Gleason Bachman 04:25

So now, looking back, I think it's a little more clear. At that time, you know, I became a nurse, I did a second degree program that just took a year, and so all of a sudden I was a nurse, and I started working in the hospital, and I, quite frankly, was really shocked by the state of healthcare in the United States. It was not what I anticipated. You know, I had kind of seen nursing as this model of care that, you know, took someone's global health into account, and, you know, their home situation and their mental health, and all the pieces that make up wellness for people kind of who we are. And I thought I would be able to apply that, and then I got into a hospital setting, and, you know, everyone wants to apply that, and it's so difficult and so fast paced, and the pressure is so immense around insurance and reimbursement and getting people in and out the door, and you can't, especially as a new nurse, put those things into practice, it's really challenging. And so I was quite disillusioned very quickly and felt like I had made the biggest mistake of my life by becoming a nurse, even though this is something I had worked for. You know, it took me years to do the prerequisite courses and get prepared to go back to do this second degree program. So I had been working towards it for quite some time, and then I got into nursing and was like, "Whoa, this is not what I thought it was going to be." It was really shocking.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:54

If you've been around Happen To Your Career for a while, you know that we recommend testing career experiments to make sure that you're putting in a little bit of work and to fully understand what you're getting yourself into. And I've linked up a few of those episodes and a couple other resources in the description so that you can check it out if you want to learn further about career experimentation and avoid this type of trap. But you know what I've also noticed, when high achievers invest heavily in a career path, whether it's time, money, identity, they often feel absolutely trapped when it doesn't work out. And this is exactly what happened to Kate. You might have heard this called the sunk cost fallacy by psychologists or even economists. And that past work keeps us in jobs that just aren't right for us, and the longer we stay, the harder it becomes to leave.

Kate Gleason Bachman 06:51

I mean, I felt devastated and trapped, quite frankly. That first job was really difficult. I stayed there for almost two years, just kind of getting my feet under me as a new nurse. And, you know, learning a lot, and, you know, growing in many ways, but also really being challenged. And I think one of the lessons that I learned in the career change process was to really look at what those takeaways were from each of the, you know, many people have had many jobs, and he was so useful for me to look back and think about like, "What did I take away from this job?" As difficult as it was, that made me grow as a person, that changed how I thought about myself and my work. You know, what are the things that I kind of carried with me? And I realized I picked things up all along the way of this journey that really made a difference in the end. So I learned a lot about working with people about healthcare in the United States, about, you know, being a nurse, just the basics of care that you kind of learn on your feet after being in school. So I kind of stayed as long as I could, and then I moved to do home care Nnrsing, briefly, home care hospice nursing, which I loved, but had a lot of challenges as well, in terms of the patient caseload and the amount of travel that had to that was part of it. And so finally, kind of pivoted to find myself back in the nonprofit sphere, actually, at the same nonprofit agency that I had worked at for my very first job doing public health research in Philadelphia. And so I found myself, I had, you know, through the years of kind of being in nursing school, and leading up to that, I had done work with people experiencing homelessness, and I found this job as a nurse in the city shelter system, and that was where I kind of started to feel like, "Okay, I'm finding my place as a nurse. This, I think, is where I can really do the advocacy and the education piece that I want." And so that kind of started this cycle of being in this, the nonprofit world as a nurse, which I ultimately decided, well, I'm still in, in some ways, but in a different way. You know, I decided to make a shift, but not for many years.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:05

Okay. Like Kate, when people go to make a shift, often the first attempt at career change is misguided. Why? Because often we try to make it when we don't yet have the tools, we don't have the perspective, we don't have the framework to make a truly meaningful shift. We're still using old ways of thinking to try to solve a new problem, and Kate's first attempt shows exactly this. She was still using the same thinking that got her stuck in the first place. This is a human tendency that most of us will do without even realizing it.

Kate Gleason Bachman 09:36

I worked in the shelter system for three years, and then as part of that same agency, then in a health center that worked pretty exclusively with people experiencing homelessness that's in Philadelphia. And I was feeling burnt out. That's kind of how I would describe what was going on for me. I was feeling like there was just... my work was coming home with me. There was so much going on. It was very, very chaotic. And I have a strong drive to solve problems, so an interest of mine. And so I really liked that aspect of it, but it was the volume of problems was so great. It was overwhelming to me. It was like a mismatch with my kind of need for balance in my life and the needs of the workplace, which were huge. And so that was when I actually first kind of saw myself as trying to make a career change within nursing, and that was back in 2016. So I had been a nurse since 2007 and so I had already been a nurse for quite a while, and I had decided that I really needed to make a shift, and I attempted a career change on my own, and it didn't go as I thought it would. So I made a change to still being a nurse, but working for a hospital system, I was hoping to have kind of more organization around my role, and just to be working in a little bit of a less chaotic environment. I think that's what I was wanting. And I was kind of trying to pivot to do something different. And what I found was that it was just not engaging to me at all. It felt very corporate, which is not my style.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:23

I want to highlight one of Kate's most powerful insights here– your job, your career, doesn't have to be completely terrible to not be the right fit. This is such an important lesson. And we tend to think, "Well, my situation is not completely horrible. There's actually a lot of great things here. Is it just me? And we tend to go through that emotional turmoil. But you don't need a horrible situation to justify making a change that even great jobs with good elements can still be wrong for you.

Kate Gleason Bachman 11:58

And I just felt like I kind of felt trapped there, too, to be honest. You know, I felt like I wasn't doing the advocacy that I wanted, and I was kind of stuck in, you know, I had swung very far from a quite chaotic environment to an environment in which I felt like I had no flexibility to kind of meet the patient needs in the way that I wanted to. And so that was almost more frustrating than the situation I had been in.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:25

Yeah, I could definitely see that really infringing upon that strong value of advocacy for you.

Kate Gleason Bachman 12:31

Yes, it was a challenge. I felt like I felt my hands were kind of tied in terms of doing what I wanted to do for the patients. So I didn't. I actually stayed at that job for less than a year, and then went back into a very similar role as a nurse in a different nonprofit in the city, which is the job that I was in when I sought your help. So, and that job was great in many ways, too, you know. There are so many things about it that were wonderful and it was still not a good fit, you know. And I think in terms of thinking about the kind of lessons learned from this process, another thing that really stuck out to me as I was reflecting on the past year since beginning this process is, you know, something doesn't have to be all bad in order for it to not be the right thing for you. And you know that I think was partly what was keeping me in those positions. There were a lot of things I loved about them, and it was not a great fit for my skill set and kind of the balance that I needed in my life. But I kept trying to do that because there were things that I was getting out of it, of course. And you know, it was fulfilling, and I felt like I was making a difference, and I had patience that I loved, and a great team, you know, all these things were wonderful about it, and it was still not a good fit. So that was a difficult and important lesson.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:59

As you can imagine, this conflicted pretty heavily with Kate's strong value of advocacy. I mentioned the identity obstacle earlier in the episode. We see career changers run into this repeatedly, and we don't think it's going to be that difficult, but it's especially true for professionals who have invested significant time or significant energy into their career path. For Kate, the struggle wasn't just about changing jobs, it was about who she thought she was. I found that without external perspective, this kind of identity conflict can keep people stuck for years or even decades or further than their entire life.

Kate Gleason Bachman 14:37

I think especially when you're, kind of, you're in your own situation, you know, it's difficult to kind of see yourself in an objective way. It's very difficult. And so I think what I was looking for was that kind of external view of someone to be able to analyze and understand what was happening, who wasn't me, who wasn't in the middle of it. And kind of hearing you talk a little bit about that challenge that people have with moving away from something that has some good components, I think for me, it was even more difficult because my identity was so enmeshed with being a nurse. You know, nursing had not been an easy journey for me. I had to work hard to find my place in nursing, and so much of my identity was caught up in being a nurse. You know, I'm a nurse. I help people. This is a passion of mine, and I really care about it. And so to even consider that that wasn't the right thing for me after having, you know, it's like a sunk cost fallacy, where I have done this for so many years, and how do I walk away from it. And my identity is so part of this. And so that made it even more difficult, and that was also why I felt like, you know, I need another person who's able to really look at all the pieces of this and help me kind of figure out what it all means. Because in the end, you know, what my coach, Alistair, really helped me to do, you know, the pieces of it were all there. It was a matter of putting it together, you know, like, your puzzle thing, and thinking about, "How do I think about this in a way that I can understand it and then make a change from it that, you know, is a change that will work for me?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:33

Here's another common misconception about meaningful work, or about career change to something that actually fits. People feel like that breakthrough moment is going to happen when you've stumbled upon this brand new career that you've never considered before. But the reality is that true breakthroughs almost always happen when you dig in, you get crystal clear about what matters to you, and then you go and test it out. So for Kate, creating what we call an Ideal Career Profile was a very pivotal moment, and this is a tool that we use with all our clients to help articulate what they truly want, rather than what they think they should want. And I've seen this process transform people's entire approach to their careers. It gives them a decision filter to operate from.

Kate Gleason Bachman 17:20

The thing that really launched the change process was the Ideal Career Profile and developing that. And, you know, I worked with my coach on that for so long, it was really difficult for me to get it going. You know, I was doing, you know, there are multiple exercises and ways to kind of approach it and think about it that you provide. And I was doing all of those things, and I felt like I was hitting a wall, and I was really, really struggling to create something that felt right to me. And so a piece of it was, you know, looking at my strengths, and that was illuminating and very helpful. And I just was having the hardest time, kind of, creating something cohesive. And I think in the end, when I finally got there, that was a launching point for everything. And within that process was the realization that I was able to come through with my coach, that I actually did not want to be a nurse. You know, I did not want to. I still am a nurse, but you can see I still have my identity. But I did not want to be a frontline healthcare worker every single day, and that was very hard to accept. And at first I was saying to my coach, "You know, this is important to me. You know, my identity as a nurse is important to me." And so he was reflecting that back to me, and that kept feeling wrong to me, but I couldn't quite put my finger on why. And finally, through this process of talking it out, I remember he said to me, like, "It sounds like you don't actually want to be doing this type of nursing work." And it took me a little while to sit with it, but once I was able to incorporate that and realize that was actually true, my Ideal Career Profile came together. Like that, I had a piece in there that was not meant to be in there that I was reluctant to let go of. And so once I was able to, I just had the best time writing that thing. You know, once I got there, I just remember spending so much time on it, and it was feeling, you know, I was truly in a flow state. Things were coming out, I knew what I wanted.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:45

Sometimes, life forces our hands in ways that we don't expect. I've seen this happen with many of our clients over the years, where you have a dramatic event, it becomes the catalyst that finally pushes them to make the change that they've been contemplating. Now for Kate, a workplace tragedy accelerated her decision to leave her job. While these events are painful, they often create the clarity and urgency needed to finally take action.

Kate Gleason Bachman 20:11

So, you know, to give some background information, I, you know, I had started thinking about, you know, I knew I wanted to make a career change. There were a number of reasons I wanted to do it, and I was kind of on this journey. And, you know, I won't go deep into all the things that were happening at the organization where I was, but there were some safety concerns. And at that organization, we had an act of violence, an active shooter event in which a colleague was killed. So it's pretty much the most horrible and dramatic thing that can happen in any workplace. And you know, I'm sure, unfortunately, you know, other people have had similar experiences, the violence in the workplace, and I just know the impact it's had on me. And so I just, you know, I just want to say to those folks, you know, it stays with you. And that's, you know, one of the things that I think I have learned, and I'll, you know, talk a little bit more about kind of how that altered my trajectory in this path. But, you know, that was a huge loss, and, you know, a loss of human life, but it also made me... It accelerated my career change process in a lot of ways. And looking back on it and thinking about that loss and the other things that I lost in leaving that job in a faster way than I anticipated that I would, is that part of the change process, I think, is loss.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:47

Here's a simple truth. What stops most people from being able to live the life that they actually want is giving themselves permission to articulate what they truly want. There's something powerful about having the courage to declare your desires, even when they seem impossible. For Kate, this man asking for a combination of what seemed outlandish, but as it turns out, articulating the direction she wanted to go was the first step to making it happen.

Kate Gleason Bachman 22:13

I think the final lesson that I'll say, and I've talked about it a little bit, but for me, the thing that I learned was just, even if it feels kind of audacious and out there is to really kind of say what it is that you want and that can be, for me, it was very difficult. It felt like I was asking for so much, and I hesitated to even say it. And finally, you know, in my example, my ideal thing was to find a job where I could work four days a week, and I could have one day to volunteer or work as a nurse in my community. And that just felt crazy. Like, how am I going to find this job? You know, how is this going to happen? And it felt outlandish, even saying that. I mean, outlandish, just saying I'm going to run an ultra marathon, in some ways, but I put it out there, and I really think that allowed me, it kind of opened my eyes to see opportunities in a different way. And what ended up happening is a former colleague of mine, who had started working for the company that I now work for, emailed me and just said, "Hey, we're having trouble filling this position, you know. Do you know anyone who would be a good fit?" And it was my job. Just looked at it and said, "This is for me. I'm not going to share this with anyone. This, you know, I'm going to apply to this job." And I think I had mentioned, you know, where I work now is also a training and technical assistance organization, very similar to where I had worked before. And I think had I not done the work that I did, I wouldn't have seen that as the opportunity that it was. But it was amazing that it came across through my email inbox and it was four days a week. And the reason was, you know, so that I, as a clinician, could have a clinical practice one day a week in my community. And so it has happened. You know, I said this thing that felt so outlandish, like, who is going to give me a job for four days a week so I can work as a nurse one day? And I now do. So I, you know, I started the job with four days a week. And actually, only very recently, in the past couple months did I find the right fit for that fifth day. And I'm working in my local Health Care for the Homeless Health Center, which is amazing. Yeah, it just felt like the most wild thing to wish for. But it happened.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:48

Career fulfillment doesn't have to come from a single source, and this is one of the most liberating realizations that a person can have. For Kate, discovering she could separate her different needs, having her intellectual work and her nursing practice in different places, this was the breakthrough that allowed her to create the perfect combination for her.

Kate Gleason Bachman 25:09

Yeah, it's amazing. I really am loving what I'm doing now, and it's been great. And you know, in hearing you say that, the other thing it makes me think of that I think I learned through the process, is you don't have to meet all your needs in one place. And that was a lesson I learned from the Happen To Your Career, your career process. And that, I think, was also what allowed me to kind of put that goal out there. You know, I wasn't going to find a job that had all of the kind of intellectual pursuits and writing and research and synthesis of information and being a nurse, you know, in the same place. And by being able to separate those, I was able to make it happen. And so that kind of idea of, you know, you don't get everything from one place necessarily, was kind of freeing to me to say, like, "Okay, I don't have to find something that has every single thing on this checklist. You know, the perfect job could be a component of this, and it could still be the best fit for my life."

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:12

Meaningful career change, it's not about leaving everything behind. Sometimes it's about reconfiguring your professional life to honor all the parts of who you are. Now, just to recap, here's what I love about what Kate did. When she had the courage to declare exactly what she wanted, which is not easy, in fact, it seemed impossible at the time, she created a unique path that perfectly supports her values, her strengths and her lifestyle needs. So remember, if you're gonna make a change in your life, whether it's a job change, career change, whatever, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. It never has to be. Usually there's a lot of room in between all or nothing. By separating her identity from her career and recognizing that she could use her nursing skills in a new way, Kate created something far better than what would have been possible through that conventional thinking. I don't want you to settle for what's expected. You can intentionally design a work life that truly fits who you are. If you're at the point where you're ready to make your own career change and find a career that fits you, we'd love to help. Just drop me an email, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com put 'Conversation' in the subject line, and I'll connect you with the right person on our team. They'll be able to have a conversation with you and understand the very best ways that we can support you in your situation. That's Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. And if you're absolutely loving these tips, these strategies, these stories, take a moment right now, hit the subscribe or follow button, and that way, every time we release an episode, you're going to get notified.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:45

All right, here's what's coming up on the very next episode of Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 3 27:50

So that's when I started feeling that my soul was being crushed, and there was no more room for growth for me there. And that's where I felt... And it becomes the guilt part because I had a good job, I had a healthy environment, I was not in a toxic relationship at work, I had the flexibility, which was my top, my number one priority, and so I knew I had the job that allowed me to do the things that were important to me. So why was I so unhappy? I could not point it out.

Jenna Bias 00:00

I realized it wasn't so much important of, like, what my next career title was gonna be, but it was more important for me what I wanted in a company.

Introduction 00:10

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:23

The great application myth tells us that more is better. Apply to 100 jobs, get 10 interviews, receive one offer. But what if this common wisdom was completely backwards? What if focusing on fewer companies dramatically increases your chances doing work that fits or higher pay? When you stop being a resume flinging machine and start being a relationship building human, everything changes. The path to your ideal workplace isn't paved with generic applications. It's built on targeted connections and the courage to go all in on what truly fits.

Jenna Bias 00:58

For some people, getting specific on your role could help. But for me, getting specific on the company is what helped most. But either way, I think getting specific is what's going to give you clarity, and it's going to allow you to get to the place that where I was, where I was putting all my eggs in one basket because I knew it was the right fit, rather than posting up on LinkedIn job boards and Indeed, and just putting your resume out there for umpteen places like that has minimal effect.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:29

That's Jenna Bias. Jenna was an RN who had worked as a bedside nurse for her entire career, and let's just say that it was no longer a fit. When she began to reach the point of burnout, she knew that in order to find fulfillment in her career, she needed to switch industries. Jenna began really digging into what she wanted and what she needed out of her next career, and narrowed down her search to just a handful of organizations, just a couple of companies that she was really excited about. She then went above and beyond in her attempts to build relationships with people at those top target organizations. In this episode, we're gonna break down what she did to go from unsure of where she fits to honing in on her dream organization and ultimately getting the offer she wanted. You're even gonna hear her talking about the strategy of using a video messaging tool called loom to reach out to multiple people at this company, including the CEO. Her persistence and determination ultimately got her out of bedside nursing and into a role as an onboarding manager with her ideal company. One of the most powerful things Jenna did, shift her focus from job titles to finding the right company environment. She discovered that getting clear on what types of companies she wanted to work for was way more important than the specific role that she'd type in for job search.

Jenna Bias 02:50

I got so lost in all the possibilities of different career types, and didn't know which one was going to be a good fit for me. And it wasn't until we kind of took the title, I guess, the career title off the table that I finally started to get some clarity. So I realized it wasn't so much important of like, what my next career title was going to be, but it was more important for me what I wanted in a company. So I got really specific about that. I knew I wanted to work still within the health space. I always loved, like, more of the functional medicine side, compared to the conventional medicine world that I was working in, in the hospital. I wanted a company that was having, like, impact on people, that was like, making a difference for the better. It was a big thing for me was, yes, I was working in a hospital setting and, "helping people", but it was a bit of a broken system, and there's much like a revolving door kind of analogy with the hospital. So moving forward, I really wanted a company that, you know, had a truly positive impact on people. I got really specific on the type of culture I wanted to be in, some ideals, but not deal breakers was types of schedule I, you know, was kind of intrigued by this whole work from home wave with COVID. And I like the flexibility of it. And I really wanted a big thing for me was autonomy in my role as a nurse, you're kind of blinded by the red tape of a hospital, and it dictates your day. I really wanted a role where I could, kind of like lead myself and have responsibilities that I took care of on my own. So none of those things point to one role, right? But you could theoretically find companies that really emphasize those things or prioritize those things.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:44

Once Jenna had identified what she was looking for in a company, well, she didn't just start firing off applications. Instead, she invested significant time researching her target organizations. This helped her build genuine connections later on when she eventually reached out.

Jenna Bias 05:02

I think the first part, which I kind of touched on, was like, just doing a ton of research, and that honestly came from, like, just my natural interest in the company. But I think in the long term: A, it helped me realize, yes, this is where I want to be. And B, it just helped me foster those relationships down the road, because I was genuinely interested in these people that I was talking to. I knew about them, I knew about the company, so that just helped be more candid down the line, because I didn't feel like I was like meeting strangers. First, it just started out as company research, and then it kind of led to, you know, my CEO is... so the company is technically like a startup. They've been around for a couple years now, but because they're a startup, kind of, based in San Francisco, in a very, what's the word, they're in the functional medicine space, right? So it's a very upcoming topic that's on the rise. So because of that, Rupa has been mentioned on several other podcasts. My CEO has been on several other podcasts. So just one step of research led to another, and I found myself just learning a lot about the company that way.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:06

In a world where everyone sends emails and just clicks the button to send online applications, Jenna knew that she was going to need to do something different, something very different, to stand out. The solution we worked with her on was brilliant in its simplicity– individualized video messages that allowed her personality to shine through.

Jenna Bias 06:25

I think too, the fear that goes along with it is like, oh, the potential of them not responding, which: A, I realize now it really doesn't matter. They get so much influx of information. It's like, "Who cares if they don't respond?" But for me, my CEO did end up acknowledging my video, and just sent me like a very like simple email back, like, telling me good luck on the interview process. And from there, I ended up applying to, I think, four different times through a few different roles, and every step of the way, I just shot her an email updating her on my journey, and she responded to every single email, not, you know, being like, nothing like extraordinary, but just the response in itself was like, to me, again, just exemplified this is a company I want to work for. Here's this busy CEO taking time out of her day to just shoot me a quick email acknowledging the work that I'm putting in to try and be a part of her organization. And then, yeah, as far as applying to multiple roles, it just came down to, I knew this is the company I wanted to work for. So again, rather than spreading myself then across different companies, I was like, no, I'm just going to focus here. And even though I actually got denied initially for my current role, obviously, in the end, it ended up paying off. I applied the second time, and I think a large part of that was because I had already touched base with the hiring manager. We did already kind of have that rapport.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:51

If it's not already obvious, rejection is a very normal part of any job search. Actually, when I get rejections, or when our clients get rejections, I tend to look at it as, "Okay. That means I'm one step closer to getting where I want to go." But the important part here is what you do after you're rejected, and this can set you apart. Jenna shares how her persistence and continued relationship building eventually led to success, even when she first got turned down for the role.

Jenna Bias 08:20

Yeah, and I think this is valuable for people who are "switching industries", which I was. A big, like, limiting belief for me was, you know, why, especially in this industry, and I was like, why would they want to hire a nurse? Like, my job is so different. And on paper, I'm missing some key things that they're looking for. And I think to an extent that is true, like there is certain things that they are hiring for in their new candidate. And I think the first time around, they found that candidate who had all those things, things that I, you know, no matter how long of a nurse I was, I was never going to have, because they were totally out of my realm. But in the second time around, I think they're a little bit more lenient on what things are willing to give up in hiring a candidate, because I'm exemplifying so much else in staying consistent with applying, building these relationships, staying committed to the company. I think those things like speak volume, and so I think they knew that I was a good enough fit, even without maybe some of those key bullet points on the application because of the actions I was doing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:31

Kind of an interesting note here. When I asked Jenna what advice she'd give to others who are looking to make a similar change, she emphasized two critical factors that made all the difference in her own journey.

Jenna Bias 09:43

Yeah, I think a few things, like, I kind of touched on this before, but getting specific whether I mean, like I said, I think for some people, getting specific on your role could help. But for me, getting specific on the company is what helped most. But either way, I think getting specific is what's going to give you clarity, and it's going to allow you to get to the place that where I was, where I was putting all my eggs in one basket, because I knew it was the right fit, rather than posting up on LinkedIn job boards and Indeed, and just putting your resume out there for umpteen places like that has minimal effect. And I think people do that because they're not really sure what they want. They're not, they're not specific, so they're just kind of, like hoping something's gonna stick. It's just not a very effective approach. So I think once you get specific, you're able to kind of hone in on how you can be effective in getting the role you want. And then I think, which is funny coming for me, because I'm not typically this type of person, but like being different, getting outside of your comfort zone, and kind of thinking outside the box, I had only ever applied to nursing jobs. That was the only career before this, and it's very cut and dry. It's very much, "Do you have the licensing? Do you live in the area? Do you have all the educational components?" It's not about creating relationships. It's not about putting yourself out there. So I didn't know that this whole side of the application process existed and was so impactful. But it is. It's like, when you go on LinkedIn or on job boards and you look at a job and you see, "Oh, 300 applicants." Like, for me, that was always really off putting, because I'm just like, "Okay, I'm just one person. I'm just one application." Which you are. You are just one application. So if all you're doing is submitting your application, you're probably not going to get it. Just the odds are not in your favor, right? So I think in this job market and in today's day and age with just how like innovative people are, like you have to do something different if you want to get to where you want to be.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:50

What Jenna did wasn't just about landing a job. It was about completely rewriting the rules of her job search. She took control instead of sending applications into the void, she did so by building real connections. This allowed her to not settle and instead focus on where she actually wanted to be. Oh, and when she did face rejection, she didn't slink away. Instead, she asked for feedback. She strengthened those relationships and positioned herself as the obvious choice when the next opportunity arose. Her willingness to stand out, using video and thoughtful research, turned her from just another applicant into somebody the company already knew. What I love most about Jenna's approach, it's accessible to anyone. You don't actually need special connections or credentials to stand out. You just need clarity about what you want and the courage to go after it in a thoughtful relationship focused away. Okay, if you're ready to stop doing the whole numbers game and move your job search into a targeted relationship building process, we'd love to help. Just drop me an email, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com put 'Conversation' in the subject line, and I'll connect you with the right person on our team who can help with your unique situation. That's Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Remember the path to work that fits isn't about how many applications you submit, it's about finding the right fit and then showing up as your authentic self to build connections that matter.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:14

Hey, I want to point out that if you're absolutely loving some of these tips and strategies, then hit the subscribe or follow button, and then, that way, every time we release an episode, you can get notified. All right, here's what's coming up on the next episode of Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 3 13:31

I was quite disillusioned very quickly, and felt like I had made the biggest mistake of my life by becoming a nurse, even though this is something I had worked for. You know, it took me years to do the prerequisite courses and get prepared.

Cheri 00:01

I'm not stressed out. I'm not frustrated. I'm not spending my evening dreading the morning. So I have the space in my brain to focus on life, like making dinner and spending time with my family.

Introduction 00:20

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:45

What if the most profound impact of an intentional career change wasn't about the job at all? Imagine a transformation so deep that it rewrites not just your work life but how you show up for the people that you love the most. Most people chase career changes, hoping for a better title, better paycheck, a solution to their happiness. But what if the real gold was hiding in the moment of being able to speak to your partner without work induced irritation, or being able to not worry about your phone and what's going on at work during family dinner, or in having the energy to truly listen to your child's day instead of being mentally exhausted?

Cheri 01:29

I'm just a happier person. I'm a better partner, I'm a better parent, I'm a better friend, because I'm happier.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:36

That's Cheri Thom, and this is what we like to call a "Where Are They Now?" episode. Cheri began working with us back in 2020 when she was desperately trying to escape a job that was making her miserable and negatively affecting her entire life. And if you haven't already, you can listen to the first parts of her story in our episodes 570 and 571 and I would encourage you to go back and take a listen to those if you haven't already. That way, you can get the full picture here. But after really digging into her strengths and defining her must-haves in her ideal career profile, Cheri did a great job of figuring out what she wanted and then finding organizations and roles that fit her. Ultimately, she landed a job that she loves, and then she got a promotion after less than a year. Pretty cool, right? It's now been three years since she made her intentional career change, and we invited her back on the podcast to reflect on these changes and see how her life has been since then. In our conversation, you're going to hear how she still uses, to this day, what she learned about herself and her strengths to continually tweak her definition of ideal and grow her career. So, let's jump into this conversation. But here's Cheri discussing how her role has progressed since she started.

Cheri 02:56

I had been a business analyst for many years prior to that, and knew I wanted to take a role that was a little bit... had a little bit more responsibility. I loved being a business analyst. I wasn't entirely sure that that was where I should be at that point, but I wanted something with more responsibility. So I did product owner certification, I did scrum master certification, and I took this job as a product owner. And what that meant to me is that I was responsible for the business analysis, which I loved doing, but also that I got to participate in some of the decision-making. So I would help guide our customers to making the right decisions for what they needed. I was there for about a year and loved my job, loved my team, loved the people I worked with, loved what I was doing. Everything about it was fantastic. Not to say that it didn't have its pains, but overall, it was super happy there. And then it was a little before I was there for a year that my boss offered me a promotion, and I did not immediately take it. I was like, "Are you sure?" And I spent about a week thinking about it. I talked with you. I talked with lots of people. I spent time figuring out if it aligned with what I wanted because I honestly wasn't sure, and I didn't want to step away from this job that I loved and that I was really good at, and to do something that I didn't love and I wasn't good at. And I talked it over with my boss, and I told her my concerns. I was like, "Okay, I want to do this, but I don't want to be not good at my job." And she was so fantastic. She's like, "Well, what we can do is we could start interviews, and if you like the people that would be your boss, we can go that route. If you don't, you can change your mind later, and we can hire a new product owner." So she just gave me some options, and I ultimately decided to take it, and I'm still really happy. It's been two years. I lead a team of product owners and data analysts, and it's been a huge learning curve. Strengths get in the way a lot, but it's been great.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:53

So let me ask you about that time, two years ago, then. So obviously you and I got to meet at that time period, and from what I remember of our conversation, you had already started going back through your ideal career profile and then trying to basically check the boxes, for lack of better phrase, and determine what lines up what potentially doesn't line up. And then we had a conversation about what could line up even better than you imagine. What do you remember about that time period? What was your focus on?

Cheri 05:31

I think after being in a job where I was unhappy for a long time, for me, one of the most important things was to be happy in my role. I didn't want to be in a spot where I was like, stressed out or didn't like what I was doing, and so I needed to make sure that this is going to align with all the things that I'd learned, right, my strengths. And that's a big one. And I mean, what I wanted. And, you know, I reviewed the job description, I talked with my boss, I talked to lots of people to think, to kind of gage if they thought it was going to be the right fit for me, which I know seems strange, but you know, sometimes people have a different perspective view than you do of yourself. And I just needed to make sure it was going to be the right fit for me, because I didn't want to end up in a spot where I wasn't happy.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:17

Do you remember any of the pieces where you were not entirely sure about? Like, as you were going through your ICP, or you're having those conversations with friends or other people that knew you, what were some of the pieces that popped up that seemed questionable at the time?

Cheri 06:34

My biggest concern was, I'm very blunt and direct, and I was really concerned about having the tough conversations with people. And it's still a concern every time I have a tough conversation with someone, but what you told me was, "make sure you're being helpful", and that has been so impactful to me, because that's what I do in every conversation I have. I just try to make sure I'm being helpful. So people appreciate, you know, straightforwardness. I don't know that they always appreciate quite how blunt I am, but I do my best to make sure that I'm helpful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:05

When we were going through and we were having that conversation, I also remember one of the things that you had mentioned to me was you had a concern about, "How am I going to learn this?" Not just around the communication pieces for making sure that your version of direct and blunt is also helpful at the same time, but in some other areas too, as you're transitioning from one role to another, and you recognized, I think rightfully so, that there was going to be a learning curve associated with it, and you didn't want the expense of that learning curve to drain out the enjoyment that you had grown accustomed to. It sounded like. So I guess my question is, how did you go about addressing that learning curve?

Cheri 07:57

I'm still learning. I think my boss is phenomenal and has been like a true mentor and has guided me in all of the things. I still make mistakes. I am accountable for making mistakes, the mistakes I make. I read a lot. I reach out to people to get their take before... if I've done something that I'm a little bit unsure of, I ask for feedback, like, "Was that okay? Was that not okay? What could I have done differently?" Yeah, it's a process. I continue to learn every day.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:33

Okay. So here's a totally different question. You've done a lot of work digging into your strengths when you went through that initial career change. How have you found that you use that knowledge of yourself and your strengths as you've grown your career and, ultimately, what your version of ideal looks like?

Cheri 08:53

All the time, every day, achiever is one of my strengths. It's probably my top one. It is often in the way because I'm very much a person who likes to get things done, to check them off the list. And as a people manager, I can't be the one who checks them off the list. I have to help others check them off the list. And not everybody works the same way I do. So that's been probably my biggest struggle, is allowing that to be okay with me. You know what I mean? Like, obviously, they can work however they want, and I just have to be okay with the fact that not everybody works like me, and not everybody learns the way that I do. And so I think that's recognizing that that's the achiever in me has been huge. I think, had I not done this, had I not gone through that exercise and figured out what my strengths were, I don't know that I could take that step back and recognize that it's me getting in the way of myself.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:46

You know, I think also that raises the question for me, how do you find that you're able to take some of this knowledge that you've accumulated for yourself and help your team grow in their roles and make their work a better fit in one way or another? Because that's part of what I think I hear you alluding to, like, everybody works differently, right?

Cheri 10:08

Yeah, yep. It kind of ebbs and flows on how much I focus on it. But I have, on more than one occasion, recommended that they... specific people at my team, not all of them, but look into what their strengths are, what their style is, how they work best, how they learn best. Last year as a team, there are 14 of us. We did the MBTI, and it was really interesting, so interesting to see how some of us were alike, and some of us were so different, and the people that I thought were like me were generally the opposite, and vice versa. So that was really interesting. But I think it's important to know ourselves and to learn these things about ourselves, so I do recommend those kinds of things to my team. Can't force them to do it, but I like when they do. Makes my life a little easier.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:03

So, tell me more along this line of strengths, then. What else have you found that has changed how you're looking at how you're doing work in order to lead with your strengths, or in order to focus on where you can best contribute?

Cheri 11:17

So one of my strengths is learner, which you know, when I'm reading about strengths, a learner is either learning or teaching. I'm a terrible teacher. Horrible teacher. And so that has been, as a people manager, that's been kind of a struggle. Like, I want to be learning, but I need to be teaching and I need to be coaching. So I've been spending a lot of time figuring out how to be a better coach. So you know, reading different articles, reading different books, asking more questions.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:47

What I hear you say is that you recognize that you're a learner, and for you, that means spending lots of time learning and then working with other people as you're learning to improve yourself, and then working with other people to help them improve. And part of the way that you're doing that is by coaching. It sounds like part of the learning you've been focused on has been learning to ask better questions, learning to be able to allow other people to...

Cheri 12:22

I have just been, like, "I'm not a good teacher, and I need to figure this out, but I'm a great learner, and I need to help them to learn." I like that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:31

Well, sometimes you have to come on the HTYC podcast to be able to put it all together. Like, that is what we do around here. No. But seriously, though, I think that just knowing what I know about you, that I could absolutely see that being very, very, very true, because you do have this, not just propensity to learn, but also this need or desire to be able to learn. And I think for you, from everything I know about you in the past, I've seen that you also apply it really well to whatever real world situation that you're in, as long as you're feeding that learning, and as long as you're seeing how to use it with other people. Is that right?

Cheri 13:15

Yeah, that's absolutely true. And we had talked about one time before that in previous jobs, I wasn't feeding that learning quite enough. And so I find things outside of work where I could continue to do that, because it is such a strong part of me. And here I've, I mean, in this new role, I've spent, I mean, every day still learning stuff. So keep it at work. Keep my learning at work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:40

Well, that's fun that you get to roll that into something that you get to contribute for in that way, and then certainly get compensated for too. And that's not right for everybody, but it sounds like it has been for this period of time for you.

Cheri 13:53

Right. And it's, I love learning about myself and how the brain works and different things like that. So I think it's been really, it's been fun for me too. It's not just been valuable to me and my team, but I think it's also been fun for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:05

Yeah, that's cool. So tell me a little bit about, like, as you reflect on the last two years, these couple of changes, what do you feel like you've learned about what creates a more fulfilling career for yourself?

Cheri 14:21

It's a really good question. I think the autonomy and the mastery that you mentioned that, like, I know that's just human nature, but I think that that has been so important to me to be able to really have ownership of something and be really good at it. If I'm not good at something, I'm generally not happy doing it. So I think that was my biggest struggle. I think when I decided whether or not I wanted to take this job was, if I'm not going to be good at it, I'm not going to be happy, and I needed to be happy because I was so happy in my previous role, and then continuing to be able to do things that allow me to grow as a person. So, you know, the learner we just talked about, and then every day, even outside of that, I learned something new about the platform that we work on, of a business that we work with, or the people that I work with, and I think that's really fun for me, too.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:09

How is it? Here's a kind of crazy question for you, but I'm curious. Three years ago, you made your initial career change. Well, not I mean, you made changes before, however, let's call it the first intentional career change. And with that intentional career change, that was very different from what you were experiencing just a little bit longer than three years ago. How is life different now compared to when you were in that last job before your intentional career change three years ago?

Cheri 15:44

I'm just a happier person. I'm a better partner, I'm a better parent, I'm a better friend, because I'm happier. That's been huge.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:53

That's amazing. Do you find that other people notice too? How do you know you're happier? I'm curious. That sounds like a silly question, but...

Cheri 16:05

Well, I get dressed in the morning.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:07

That is a good sign.

Cheri 16:09

Which I know, like, that sounds so stupid, but where I'm currently at, we have our cameras on all the time. And where I was previously, we never did. I never met my co-workers, like, I would talk to them, I could see them on the sidewalk, though, and never have known who they were. But I would literally work in my pajamas, and I don't do that anymore. I get dressed every day, which, like I said, I know that sounds stupid, but it's a thing. I needed to be a little bit more put together when I started my day. And I think that that was just a symptom of me not being in a place where I was happy and fulfilled, like I worked in my pajamas.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:46

That's interesting. So for you, like, getting dressed and getting, whatever your version of readied for the day, was a sign that you felt that it was worthwhile or worth your while, right? Versus previously, you just scrolling in your pajamas because it was not a great experience for you, is what I'm hearing, so.

Cheri 17:13

And I mean, I'm much calmer.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:15

How does that show up? Like, how do you...?

Cheri 17:19

Yes. I have a teenager. I don't yell nearly as much as I used to, and granted, that's something I've also been working on very intentionally, but I'm 100% a yeller. And I think just being in a role where I'm truly happy, because that's one less thing that I'm stressed about and one less thing that I need to yell about.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:38

That's really cool, actually, that is amazing. And also I would imagine that being able to be in a role that you are feeling much better about, probably gives you more of the headspace than to focus on, like, I heard you say a moment ago, like, "I've been... That's something I've been working on intentionally." But that probably gives you the headspace to work on that as well.

Cheri 18:00

Right. I'm not stressed out. I'm not frustrated. I'm not spending my evening dreading the morning. So I have the space in my brain to focus on life, like making dinner and spending time with my family, and, you know, whatever those things are.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:19

That's really cool. It's really amazing to me how distress, particularly, not necessarily eustress, because there's multiple types of stress. Eustress is often known as the good stress, and distress the bad stress. That's not exclusively true. However, for the purposes of our conversation, distress for long periods of time, it's funny now it just zaps or dissolves all other energy. It's crazy.

Cheri 18:46

Yep, all of it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:49

Well, here's a totally different question for you. I think that something I am curious about also is one of the cool things when we get to have somebody come on after a couple of years of experience and time lapse in between, is that often having that initial intentional career change changes how they do other things, not just in work, but also in life. So I'm curious what else might have changed along the way for you. And then also, I'm curious what advice you might have for someone else who is wanting to make way back, think three years ago, somebody who's in that situation where they're thinking about an intentional career change. So let's do those one at a time. First, where else have you seen your life change because of that intentional career change?

Cheri 19:48

My husband is wanting to make a shift. He's been doing the same thing for a very long time with different employers, but the same general thing. He's been wanting to make a shift. And I'm going to use the word harp, but I talk at him all the time about how he needs to put in the work, and he needs to figure out what he wants to do, and he needs to, I don't tell him to do an ideal career profile, but I tell him, like, the basics– you need to figure out what your ideal day looks like. How do you want to wake up? What do you want to wear to work? What do you want the setting to look like? Trying to make him focus, or kind of reframe his thoughts because he and I have talked, and he's not a dreamer, and I think you and I have talked about that too, like I was never a dreamer. I never thought about what I wanted this kind of like abstract thing to look like. So I think having gone through this program, I have gained a little bit that I try to help other people with if they're wanting to make a shift in one way or another. And it doesn't even necessarily need to be a career, it could be they want to even grow at work. What does that look like for you? What do you want to be doing? So one of my team members and I have been having a conversation about what she wants her future to look like. And so, you know, I am like, "Well, what does that look like for you? What's your ideal? What do you need to have to make that happen?" And then, once we had that like, it basically gives me an outline of where I can help her grow so that she can get to where she wants to be.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:23

That is really cool. That's really awesome, actually. Here's the reason I love that. Because... Have you and I talked about our secret mission before at all? Have we had that conversation? Would you like to know the secret mission? I actually don't have to... If I tell you, I don't have to... Nothing has to happen after that. No, seriously, though, our secret mission is to be able to work with enough people that are in positions or grow to be in positions that they have the authority or influence that they can then help the organizations, and certainly the people in the organizations, be able to get to their own personal version of fit too. Because the reality is, we're not going to work with every single person in the world, and if we really want to make an impact in the way that we do, then there has to be a ripple effect. So thank you, by the way, for honoring the secret mission you're now inducted in. Yes. You were doing it without even knowing it. Way to go. No, seriously though, that's a big deal. I think it's really cool for you to be able to, one, do this for yourself and then start to apply that learning, which is what you do anyway. We already established that earlier. You can't help but do that, take that learning, those things that you've done for yourself, and be able to help use it become applicable for other people. And I would guess that that is probably incredibly valuable to the people that you get to work with in one way or another. May not always feel comfortable, but that doesn't mean it's not incredibly valuable. That's pretty awesome.

Cheri 23:08

It's one of my favorite things to do, which I just realized right now, is to... and part of what I learned on other people. Like, if I've taken even snippets of something away from something, I like being able to pass that along so that other people can have that knowledge. When I started teaching yoga, and that was why I did it, so that I could offer it to other people for free, who I felt like needed to have 10 minutes of yoga in their day.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:36

When did you start teaching yoga?

Cheri 23:38

In 2016. It was one of the things that I needed to do when I needed something to learn.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:43

I guess this was one of the outside of work, things that you were searching for. That's cool.

Cheri 23:48

Yeah. And I wanted to, I worked with all these people who, you know, we sat at a desk like this all the time. So, you know, and I wanted to be able to do yoga for free with these people. I didn't want them to have to pay for it, and so I did yoga teacher training, and then I started teaching at work, and people could take class for free, because I wanted to be able to give them that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:10

Yeah, that is really awesome. And now, years later, you're noticing the pattern that that's a thing for you and that's important for you.

Cheri 24:19

This is a good conversation we have. I do take things away from this.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:23

Oh, my goodness, you heard it here first. So totally different question then. What advice would you give to other people who are in that place? Now that you're three years removed from an intentional career change and you've been able to continue to build on what you have learned through that initial career change, and now you're into, what we would call refinement of your career, what advice would you give to people who are way back and just thinking about making a change for the first time?

Cheri 24:55

My advice is the same as it was when I first did this. Know what you're running towards, and make sure you're running towards something and not away. That was advice that was given to me years ago by a friend, and it has stuck with me, and it's been such a driving factor in a lot of the things that I've done. Basically have a goal. Know what direction you're headed, because otherwise, you're just driving around aimlessly, going nowhere.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:22

I love it. Do you have anything else that we didn't already cover?

Cheri 25:26

Oh, the last time we talked, I had mentioned... So one of the questions that you had asked me was, "What happened when things got hard?" Because they absolutely did. And I told you about a conversation that I'd had with someone, I don't even remember who it was. It was someone who was going through Happen To Your Career. And we were talking on LinkedIn one day, and I was venting about this job that I had applied for, and everything seemed great, and I was on like, the third interview, and they're like, "Oh, wait. This job is not remote," and it was hours away from here, so it's not something I was going to do. And I was so upset about it because it was really... It was the one I felt like. I need to point these things have a way of self-filtering and that, like, my attitude was crap then, and those few little words made such a huge impact into my attitude about the whole thing, and that's what helped me to kind of trudge along to end up where I'm at now. But that was the other thing I had in my notes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:22

What were those few little words?

Cheri 26:24

These things have a way of self filtering.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:25

These things have a way of self filtering. They do. I agree. Strange.

Cheri 26:32

Absolutely. Like, there was a reason that one didn't work out, and it was because it wasn't the right one for me for one reason or another. And so when he said that, it kind of like gave my brain the space to think that way and be less upset about it and continue on until I found the right fit. But yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:49

That is... I've thought a lot about this over the years for that type of advice because if some people believe in fate or that things happen for a reason, and for a long time, I was sort of back and forth, like, "I don't know if I believe in fate or not." However, here's what I've realized, is that the psychological impacts of choosing to believe things happen for a reason far outweighs whether or not you're actually right about whether or not they happen for a reason or not. So I'm just gonna go with what serves me really well. You could be... Yeah. What did you say earlier? You know, when that initially happened, you were, I don't know, less than excited. I can't remember what word that you used.

Cheri 27:40

I had a crappy attitude.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:41

You had a crappy attitude, yeah. So you could continue to have a crappy attitude. Or you could choose to believe that it happened for a reason.

Cheri 27:48

Right. And it led me to the path that I am now on, which is I'm very happy with, so...

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:55

Very cool. Okay, if you think about career refinement as opposed to career change, so the continuous act of refining and re-establishing your ideals, what you want, and then also your minimums, which also have a tendency to have your expectations increase in both areas once you've done something as difficult as an intentional career change. So my question is, for people who are in the place where they want to continue to refine their career, what advice would you give that person?

Cheri 28:31

I have this post it note on my desk that says "We can honor who we are as people and still push ourselves." And I think that has been... I read it every day, and I think acknowledging who I am, what my strengths are, what my weaknesses are, who I want to be, but still kind of pushing on some of those weaknesses, anti strengths, has been a big thing for me. It has helped me to grow in my role. It has helped me to grow as a person. It's helped me to be a better version of myself. So I think finding something that is meaningful to you, maybe. So this little statement, for whatever reason, is just meaningful to me, and it kind of helps me to find a trajectory I want to be on.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:20

That's fun. I love that one too. You know, earlier, you were talking about how it was really important to you since you were already in a role that you were excited about and you loved to not just make a change because it was right in front of you, or it was available to you, or people were asking. And so I know part of the goal was just to continue to move into a role that you loved. What did you find? Were there areas that were even better than what you could have imagined, or what ended up happening there?

Cheri 29:57

I think that there are areas that are better and then there are areas that are worse. So this has been a little bit of a push for me, because it's definitely outside of my comfort zone, or it was outside of my comfort zone. It's a little better now. But, you know, we talked about having those tough conversations, that's been a real challenge for me. I don't, because I'm very blunt, and I don't... I'm not in the weeds anymore where I love being, and so that's been a little bit of a challenge. But I love that I get to continue to grow, and I get to help other people grow. Love that. And I don't think I necessarily expected that when I was deciding whether or not I was going to take the job, that's not really something that I factored in, is that's what I got to do, and I love that part of it. And just as a side note, I have told you this so many times, but I am so grateful that I went through this because it's just changed who I am as a person. It has, it's given me more confidence that I am making the right decisions for myself and being able to help others make the right decisions for them. So I'm just so grateful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:04

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:56

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 32:02

I realized it wasn't so much important of, like, what my next career title was gonna be, but it was more important for me what I wanted in a company.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:12

The great application myth tells us that more is better, right? Apply to 100 jobs, get 10 interviews, receive one offer. But what if this common wisdom was completely backwards, especially if you're going after work that actually fits that you enjoy? What if focusing on fewer opportunities, maybe even just a few perfect organizations for you, could dramatically increase your chances of landing work that fits? When you stop being a resume flinging machine and start being a relationship building human, everything changes. The path to your ideal workplace isn't paved with generic applications. It's built on targeted connections and the courage to go all in on what truly fits.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:59

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it, and if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player, so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week, until next week. Adios, I'm out.

Stephanie Drumright 00:01

I was so worried about not getting a job in time for my visa expiring, that I thought, "Oh, I need to go out there and pretty much blast as many organizations as I can in order to make sure I'm optimizing the touch points with different companies."

Introduction 00:24

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:49

What if I told you that applying to fewer jobs could actually increase your chances of landing the role that you want?When a job search gets urgent, there's almost this instinctive reaction to throw everything at the wall and begin to see what sticks. We convince ourselves that applying to more jobs in more industries are going to absolutely increase our chances. It seems like a numbers game. But here's the thing, we have helped thousands of people absolutely transform their careers in the last 12 years. And what we've seen is that's not true. Even though this pattern shows up and it's a human thing to do, the more targeted that you get, the fewer jobs that you actually have to apply for, and the more likely that you're going to be able to do so in a quality way, and the more likely you're going to be able to land a role that you're actually aiming for as opposed to just anything.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:44

That's Stephanie Drumright. Stephanie is now the head of operations at a successful FinTech company. But it wasn't too long ago where she was racing against a ticking clock because she was laid off, and that meant that, since she was on a visa, a work visa, on a different country, at any moment, she could have a 60 day deadline begin where she needed to secure a new role or face leaving the country. Panic set in, and she did what many of us would do to cast the whitest possible net, applying to 145 different jobs, only to face multiple rejections and crickets. But something pretty fascinating started happening when Stephanie narrowed her focus. Instead of applying everywhere, she got really specific about the role that she was going after–what she wanted–and began building relationships and networking with intention. Now the result here was multiple job offers, two specifically within a week. And her journey perfectly illustrates what we've seen with thousands of clients. Getting hyper specific about what you want almost always leads to better results than casting a super wide net. And Stephanie's story isn't just about landing a job, it's about resilience, protecting your mental health during uncertainty, and trusting and knowing that what you want is a faster path to success by far. Okay, so here she is discussing what led her to possibly losing her work visa and being unable to move forward in the country she wanted to be in.

Stephanie Drumright 01:44

And it just felt like something was not quite working, and something was not quite there. And I really attribute that to this net that I was so broadly casting. And I think that as I was having conversations with people about what I want to do, and I was really starting to think about the type of environment I wanted to be in, it was still, oh, so many possibilities.

Stephanie Drumright 03:52

My background is that I had joined a company, kind of very early on, right out of university, and I joined this organization both for what it did as a tech organization, it was remote working software, as well as the opportunities that it was going to potentially have where I could live and work abroad. And within my first sort of year and a half that actually came to fruition and moved to Dublin where I spent a couple of years there, and the company supported me and moving over there. And then in 2015, I sort of built a business case to move myself over into London where more of my team was based. And in doing that, you know, for me, where I landed in London was primarily just I was supposed to be on assignment. And what that meant was just sort of two years based in London, and I could extend, I knew I could extend my visa, but I knew I had a cap at five years. So as it turns out, within my first year, I absolutely fell in love with London and just felt like this was absolutely my place, and I also made a name for myself within the organization by being kind of the person who is focused internationally in an operations and business systems capacity. But at the end of the five years, I had to actually leave the country, and that was a huge disappointment. I was on the right type of visa, actually, in order to stay in the United Kingdom. So I had to go through the process of packing up all my stuff, saying goodbye to all my great friends, and leaving. But I had already established with my organization that my goal was to spend the year I needed to back in the States, only to then return to the United Kingdom and get on the right visa, and then stay here for the long term. And then I got back to the UK, and it was quite a stressful time where, you know, in the roles that I was in, there was a lot of movement and transition within the organization, and it, you know, it just sort of ended up being a little bit more challenging, I think, to find my footing once I was really back in London and really kind of owning my role in the way I wanted to. I had some really great leaders throughout the time in which I was based at this company, and my particular leader at the time, the VP of workplace transformation. She and I were working on a lot of things around my career advancement and how I could move up into a director role. And, you know, the kind of the qualities and the skill set that I'd identified and that she'd identified would be things I needed to work on, and we were really closely working on a path which is exciting for me. Unfortunately, she moved on for the organization, and that left me and my team a little bit in limbo. And so this really kind of brings it all back around where at the beginning of 2024, me and my whole team and a significant majority of the organization were actually made redundant. So I found myself, you know, two and a half years back in London, and I need to get to the five years, and I am, you know, there's a garden leaf set up here. But basically that meant that I sort of had three months until my organization would formally inform the government that I was no longer employed and they were no longer sponsoring my visa.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:34

So at that moment, what did that feel like?

Stephanie Drumright 07:38

Yeah, it was horrible. I will say it was one of those things where, because I'd been working at this company for 12 and a half years, and I had put so much time and effort and just love for the business into everything that I was doing. And I think I had, as I mentioned, just made a name for myself. I think, you know, I was seen as a real go to person around the organization, and I think it was tough, because I think I'm generally a very intuitive person, and I think I have the ability to kind of know when something's not quite right, and I think that I should have listened to that intuition earlier on when certain signs were indicating that me and my team might not have the strongest landing spot when our leader was then exiting the organization. And I think that for me, I look back at that time and I remember feeling very, just disappointed in the organization, very... I felt like, yeah, for someone who spent so much time with the organization, it felt like they didn't really care. And that was tough. That was really, really difficult for me. But I also think that I can respect that my time ran out there, and it's probably for the better, right? So, you know, I think as saddened as I was to have been let go in that way, I think the work that I've done to sort of reconcile that in my own head, the, you know, again, the timing was just the timing, and I had to be okay with that. The major concern for me was the visa sponsorship, though.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:24

Yeah, that's what I'm very curious about here, too. So you and I got to have a couple of conversations. And you know, what I remember was that it seemed like you were, I don't know, prepping for the worst, maybe is a good way to put it. It seemed like it put an intense pressure on your job search, and that racing against the ticking clock so that you could secure sponsorship before time potentially ran out. What I'm really curious about is, how did that urgency impact your mindset and your approach during this time?

Stephanie Drumright 10:06

Yeah. It was really twofold, right? Because of the way my sort of contract had worked with my previous organization, I still had three months of garden leave before, again, I knew that the organization would inform the government of my lack of sponsorship. And then I knew that the way it works in the UK is that then the government has the particular amount of time to sort of process that, they can do it very quickly, sometimes they can take much longer, but once they process it, then there's 60 days until I have to leave the country if I don't have a job. So I was looking at this end to end, sort of, five months. And I thought, "You know what? If I really put my head down to it and I really figure out what I want to do, I truly believe that I can find a job that will sponsor me, and it'll be the right one, and I can do it in five months." So there was part of me that was feeling a little bit comfortable, and I think that was nice because it actually allowed me to stop and really think about what I wanted to be doing. But yeah, so I guess, from my perspective, initially, I was feeling a little comfortable, but then when we spoke, that's when I was really starting to panic. The absolute panic was setting in, and I think we were speaking probably, yeah, when I maybe had a month or two left.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:38

Yeah, absolutely. Can I read you something really quick that I think maybe illustrates? This is a little bit of what you sent us. And it said, "Hey, I've applied to 91 jobs in the past four months. About 30% I'm getting rejections. Another 30% I'm hearing nothing about. 15% I'm not qualified for because of my visa status, and another 15% I've heard back from and typically had a first round interview." And in those, I often seize up because of performance anxiety. And it feels like maybe that illustrated right where your head was at the point in time where you're, you know, approximately any moment from 60 days away till you have to leave the country.

Stephanie Drumright 12:22

Absolutely. I mean, you're taking me back into those moments of utter chaos and frustration and kind of it was the lead up to a bit of panic and terror, really. But yeah, so it just was, it felt a bit crazy that I had applied to 91 jobs by that point. So, you know, I ended up applying to 145 jobs before I had received my first offer, and then I received my second one after that. But, yes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:49

Well, let's talk about that, because there were many things that you did along the way that didn't work, but there were also quite a few pieces that did work, or eventually, as you were learning along the way, turned into something that worked. And so I'm curious when you, you know, when you first got to that point where it's like, "any day now, could be the 60 day ticking clock, and most of what I'm doing at this point seems to be not working." What do you remember was the first change along the way where things could actually start working, or you could start to see a path forward? Tell me a little bit about.

Stephanie Drumright 13:35

Yeah, it's a great question, and I think there's a couple of things. I'm very quite process oriented, so I had already built myself a bit of a regular kind of cadence around how I was applying to roles and doing so on a day by day basis, and then getting interviews and really sticking to a schedule. So that was very helpful, and I had been doing that prior to reaching out to you all. But again, it just felt like something was not quite working, and something was not quite there. And I really attribute that to this net that I was so broadly casting, and I think that as I was having conversations with people about what I want to do, and I was really starting to think about the type of environment I wanted to be in, it was still, oh, so many possibilities. And I was able to, sort of, through conversations, narrow that down a little further, but when I was listening to a lot of your podcast around that kind of ideal company profile and ideal role, I was sort of like, "You know what? This feels like I need to have this conversation." And that, to me, was probably like one of the biggest defining moments, I think for me, when Phil and I started to do that work together. Because, again, I had already done a lot of that. It was just more so validating the, like, what are the more specific things that I think about when I go about my day, and what I want that to look like in the next number of months, years and so on. And I hadn't really gotten so detailed. I hadn't really specified, "Oh, I won't travel more than 45 minutes on a commute", or, "I want to go into the office three times a week, at least", but no more, you know. So I wanted a hybrid working model. And then I knew I wanted that head of ops role, and then I knew I wanted to be in an organization that was really no bigger than 250 people. So it actually allowed me to get down to the specifics of that. And what I actually think one of the main reasons I actually think that was so important was not only did it give me a bit of peace of mind around what I was applying for, and it allowed me to be more specific and to go for those things, when I actually then started to get those interviews with those types of companies, yes, I still got plenty of rejections because of the visa stuff. But when I then kind of started to get those interviews, a lot of those size companies were actually very willing to sponsor. And so I'm sort of in that range and then it was, like, the massive companies, but there's, you know, real difference there in terms of style of, you know, organization and working. But yeah, I guess that to me, was a real validating point. Yeah, it felt super right once I had defined that, and then was really going after those types of companies in that role, and then I was feeling very validated once I got those interviews.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:50

So let me ask you about that. I think that what you just shared, there were so many important pieces wrapped up in there. So I'd like to go over a few of them and see if we can break them out, so that people can use these insights, because they're subtle. They're very subtle. The first thing I heard you mention is that what really made the difference for you was going from casting this really wide net where you thought you knew what you wanted, going to a much, much smaller or maybe more specific net where you were targeting a higher degree of specificity. So here's my question for you, almost everyone that we have worked with in the last 12 years believes that they are being pretty specific, like, that's the place where we get to talk to everybody, and I'm honored that we get to help people through in that capacity, and get what they believe is specific to a very, very high degree of specificity. And I would say that, you know, in your situation, what I'm really curious about is, what do you think worked for you to get to that different level of specificity?

Stephanie Drumright 18:02

Yeah. Well, I think that I had, again, started with thinking about my skill set and what I really enjoyed doing in the jobs that I have had over the course of the prior 12 years. Knowing that I'm very much a people person, knowing that I'm very much process oriented, and knowing that I wanted to bring delight into new ways in which people work, there were...

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:33

I love that about you, by the way. That came across that you want to bring delight into the ways that people are working. That stood out from our conversations, too. So that was just a fun thing for me, selfishly. Thank you for putting that into the world. I appreciate it.

Stephanie Drumright 18:48

I'm glad. I'm glad. It's really important to me that that is how I think about operations, right? And so I think that, as I was thinking about then, "Okay, those high level things, how do those apply into the skills that I have, and what is really going to light my fire within me and really get me excited?" I did a lot of work to kind of take that through and go, "Okay, here are the different kinds of roles I could potentially do, and the ones that I might really enjoy as well." You know, I really enjoy being in the room and having the tough conversations and being part of the decision making and being the process of decision making. I really enjoy, again, the people aspect of work, mentoring, coaching, guiding. You know, I, again, really want to make sure that people are happy with the ways they work, because we come to work every day, we shouldn't, you know, we shouldn't be a slog. Everyone should be enjoying what they're doing and how they're doing it, right? So, you know, again, I thought a lot about, "Okay, there's four or five different paths I could potentially take." A couple of them felt a little bit more, I think, ideal in the sense that they felt like a bit of a step up. For me, that was particularly kind of going into and seeking out these head of operations or sort of director role, Director of Operations roles, and also kind of, I was looking at Chief of Staff and things like that. Then there was the project or program management type roles and kind of still being in a managerial position, but pursuing that, and that felt very just, kind of like, a horizontal transition for me, but yeah. And then there were a couple other things that sort of seemed interesting, but I probably would have to start much lower down in the totem pole and then work my way up, and I wasn't quite prepared for that. So I think by actually taking that broader step back, thinking high level about what I like and what I want to do, and then associating some of the things that I've really enjoyed throughout my career, and then breaking it down further as too well, where does that apply into potential roles that I might want to do. I did then a significant amount of research on the different role types on LinkedIn. I talked to various different leaders who I both worked with in the past, but also I did a lot of networking and reached out to lots of people and just had conversations about what those types of roles look like. So I did a lot of research. I would say, then, going back to the casting the net wide, I was so worried about not getting a job in time for my visa expiring, that I thought, "Oh, I need to go out there and pretty much blast as many organizations as I can in order to make sure I'm optimizing the touch points with different companies." And I think that's where it was good in lots of ways, but it also showed me, and I bet if I went back and looked at my analysis, it showed me which ones I was actually really excited about. And that then more naturally as I met with Phillip, you know, we really broke it down and identified that the head of operations role was the one that was right for me, and that's how I wanted to pursue it. And it was also a step up in the right direction for me, I felt. And I think that can, obviously, that can sometimes be very scary for people, and I think that's one reason maybe people, you know, don't often kind of immediately jump to pursue that. I certainly felt that way. But I think the more I practiced reviewing the job descriptions, tailoring my resume, you know, contacting these organizations that were hiring head of ops, and the more I interviewed for those types of roles, the more I realized, "Oh, I am well qualified for these types of roles."

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:50

We've been doing this for 12 years at this point, and I am amazed over and over and over again. It doesn't quite make sense, but it happens almost like clockwork when people can strategically focus, like you did, narrow down on what they want, and then do the really often difficult work of, you know, whatever it goes going to take to make that happen, essentially, in their world. And then it seems to, it doesn't always perfectly work in a, you know, certain time frame, but it does, consistently, over and over and over again, deliver results. It's almost strange. It's not magical, though, when we come back to it. The reality is, you did a really great job honing in on what you wanted. And then you, I almost liken it to, I don't know, like, way back before we had GPS, and even if you were driving without a map, like, let's say that you knew, similar to, "you knew when you wanted to be a head of operations at a smaller organization, and you knew all these other pieces that were really highly specific" so you knew generally where you want to go, much like, if I know that I want to drive to, I don't know, New York City or something, New York City, New York, and I'm starting out in Washington State where I live, even if I don't have a map, still going to be able to eventually find my way by continually heading in that direction. And it's not magic how you get there, you know, may take a thousand wrong turns and have to, like, stop and ask people and all the things, but eventually you get to New York City, and eventually, in this case, you ended up at an organization that you were excited about with an offer that was a miraculous fit in an operations type of role that you were looking for. So congratulations on doing the work.

Stephanie Drumright 24:44

Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, it feels really great. I've landed in an incredible company with brilliant people. And, you know, it's both a great cultural fit as well as the role fit, as well as being something that I know I'm gonna have growth opportunities as well. It's exciting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:06

One thing that we didn't talk about yet that I really wanted to ask you about. So okay, as way back when you and I were having a conversation about how we could help, and I was thinking through your exact situation. One of the things that was going through my head was, well, number one, at the time, how do we find a strategy for you that allows you to be able to get exceptions made for you? Because that's really what we were talking about. We were talking about this super short time frame. We were talking about the fact that not all organizations are willing to or need to or bother with sponsoring or visas or that whole entire process. There's plenty of people in the market that why should they need to in the first place. So as you went into some of those interviews, or as you targeted some of those organizations that were potentially a fit, what did you find set you up to get exceptions made for you?

Stephanie Drumright 26:07

It's a really interesting question because I actually experienced some things that were quite surprising where I thought that exceptions would be made. And some of the things that I've done were applying through referrals, which is usually a very good approach, and I highly recommend that no matter what, you're much more likely to get looked at in the interview process, and potentially they're more likely to make exceptions. Unfortunately, I found quite a number of those that just weren't going to allow that again, just by nature, especially of the situation I was in. So I actually started to take a different tact, and it's a little different to kind of what you're asking here, because in the end, I don't think the exceptions necessarily worked out. What I did was, I did some research on companies that actually had visa sponsorship. So I started with, "Oh, I know that they sponsor visas", so that was a good thing. So definitely knowing that they have visa sponsorship, good start. What I then did was, and me and my coach talked a lot about this, was, do we say it up front, or do we get through the interview process a little bit more and then hope that they're willing to make an exception? I am not a person who likes to kind of hide things, and I felt that was not going to work in my favor and also potentially just gonna be a waste of my time. So I actually took the approach of disqualifying quickly. And for anyone who has a sales background, that is what you have to do. You have to go in there, and you have to get the no as quickly as possible, and you just gotta know when to walk away. So for me, that actually was really helpful because it felt like I was then taking the control in those situations. I was the one going into those conversations saying, "I need a visa sponsorship. I'm really excited about this role. I know you guys sponsor. Could you tell me a little bit more about that?" In some cases, unfortunately, companies do have a visa sponsorship license, but they specifically save the visas that they will sponsor for very specific kinds of roles that are difficult to hire for within the country and where they do want to hire people externally and bring them in. So it might, one of my roles was just not one of those. So I still found a lot of rejection from that, but at the very least, I was the one being upfront and going, "Okay, you can't meet my requirements. And this is a requirement I have." And I think a little bit of that switch in my brain around this not being a limitation of me getting a job, but this being one of my requirements I have to getting a job, really changed the narrative in my head and really allowed me to go, "Cool. I can walk away without feeling ignored or frustrated by this."

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:19

That's awesome. And I think that what I'm taking from that, in your case, you had to find the, I'm going to call it mental path, or maybe even the psychological shortcuts that worked for you, to be able to go in and show up in the way that you wanted to. And then also, you know, back to what we had said before, just targeting the right situations that are more likely to create the end result that you're looking for sets you up for success, and even then, it's still a numbers game, but it's the right numbers game, as opposed to, let me apply carte blanche to anything that I can, and it ultimately led to the result that you were looking for. That's cool.

Stephanie Drumright 30:01

Exactly right.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:02

So, I think here's one of the things that I want to know, you know, at this point, now that you've done that, what advice would you give to other people in that similar situation where, you know, maybe they even have their back up against a wall in, you know, whether it's in the way that you did, or another totally different way, it would be really easy to then not focus on what you want and accept anything, but you didn't. What advice would you give?

Stephanie Drumright 30:31

Yeah, it's a home. And the moments of weakness I certainly had with the, "I'm just going to accept anything, and it's going to be fine." And to be honest, I did go through some of those processes as well, right? I got one. It was still a great opportunity. But it's funny how it ended up working out, where, actually, when I... So to take a step back, when I really was in a state of just I was just so frozen and just not knowing what to do, just very frustrated and whatnot, the getting back to the basics was a huge momentum builder again. So I would highly recommend that when you have a moment where you've received that rejection, feel it, but jot down what you've learned, talk to other people about, you know, what learnings can be taken from those rejections, and then work to figure out how to implement that, and then get back to the basis to build more momentum moving forward. Because, like you said, it's not going to magically work out. You have to know where am I headed. I needed to be visualizing that constantly. I actually sat down on the couch every single day for one month, and I visualized what it would feel like going into an office again and doing a specific head of ops role, and I put myself in that continuously because that allowed me to go, "I'm going to get there. I know it, and I believe it. I just haven't found the right thing." And so there's a matter of believing in the end possibilities that you will achieve. There's also a matter of believing in oneself that I can do more than I ever potentially, you know, expected. And I would say the sort of last piece of advice is you can't control everything, and at some point you have to only focus on what you can control. And this was very difficult when your back is against a wall and you're experiencing rejection for things that you cannot control, and it just eats you up inside. But if you can separate that out and go, that's completely out of my control, and these are the things I can do and the steps that I can take that are within my control, mentally, that's a game changing moment, and I highly recommend meditation around that, visualization around those things, and an ability to just, you know, get out that you're frustrated, but also then recognize that you're doing all the right things because you are, right? If you're in the work, you're doing the right things that are going to get you to get you to where you need to go, and then trust in the process. This was my mantra throughout the nine months I was searching for a job, and it felt very, not fake initially, but I truly had to lean into that mantra by the last sort of two to three months or so of my job search, and particularly in the last month of the lead up to getting two job offers, it was very much like I have to trust the process. The one other thing I'll say about the fact that I had one job offer was for a really great role at a fantastic company, I was so excited to work with these people as well. There was something that I was just... I was waiting for the offer to be finalized, and I was waiting for them to come back with kind of what my expectations were, and hopefully they would meet that. And they were taking a while. And it was really, I was speaking to my mom, actually, and she was like, "Look, this is so great. You have an offer. It's not as much money as you want, but it's a great company. It's probably going to be, you know, a really good thing, but don't stop your momentum. You never know what could happen. So get off this call with me and go apply to four or five jobs. Just see what happens." And I did. And I got a call back from two the next day, and I then met with the talent acquisition partner for one of them that I was really excited about. I then was fast tracked because they knew I already had an offer being upfront with them about that. And I was fast tracked to meet with the hiring manager, and I was fast tracked to meet with two more of the executive leaders, and after meeting them and then the CEO, I had an offer within eight days from that organization, and that's the actual company that I ended up working for. So it's just one of those things where you just sort of never know, but don't let up.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:54

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:47

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 36:52

I'm not stressed out. I'm not frustrated. I'm not spending my evening dreading the morning. So I have the space in my brain to focus on life, like, making dinner and spending time with my family.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:07

What if the most profound impact of an intentional career change wasn't about the job at all? Imagine a transformation so deep that it rewrites, not just your work life, but how you show up for the people that you love the most. Most people chase career changes, hoping for a better title, better paycheck, a solution to their happiness. But what if the real gold was hiding in the moment of being able to speak to your partner without work induced irritation, or being able to not worry about your phone and what's going on at work during family dinner, or in having the energy to truly listen to your child's day instead of being mentally exhausted?

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:52

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it, and if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player, so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week, until next week. Adios, I'm out.