Vivi Robadey 00:00

I knew I had a job that allowed me to do the things that were important to me. So why was I so unhappy? I could not point it out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:12

There's a fascinating career paradox that we've seen trap countless high performers. And whether your soul feels crushed despite having a perfect job on paper, or whether you have a great situation but you feel guilty for secretly wanting more, you've probably experienced this. The breakthrough here isn't finding a better version of what you have, but redefining what better actually means for you.

Vivi Robadey 00:42

So I had a long list of things that I didn't want to, but when I looked into things that I wanted to, they were all very vague. I wanted flexibility. I want a work-life balance. I want to be well paid. I wanted to be recognized for my talents. But what does work-life balance look like?

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:09

What does that even mean, right?

Vivi Robadey 01:11

What does that mean?

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:13

That's Vivi, who spent 12 years at the same financial services company, creating five different roles for herself as she identified needs within the organization and progressed to each one. From the outside, she had it all– a good salary, supportive colleagues, and the flexibility to visit her family in Brazil every year. But as time passed, she found that her creativity was increasingly stifled, and micromanagement was popping up everywhere. In a moment, you're going to hear my conversation with Viv,i and I want you to pay attention to her approach to career change. She didn't just jump to another job out of desperation. Instead, she paused to understand her strengths, what truly energized her and what she really actually wanted. We got to see this firsthand as we worked with her, and she transformed her vague wishes like more flexibility and better work-life balance, into very specific targets that aligned with her values, what she wanted the most, and her signature strengths. Today, Vivi works as a client service associate where her creativity and independence are celebrated. Here she is going back to where her career first began.

Vivi Robadey 02:25

Before I moved to the US, I felt that, professionally speaking, I knew what I would be doing for the rest of my life. Since a very young age, I knew I wanted to be a teacher, and I cannot express how much joy it would bring to me having those conversations where I would get something that was very complex for my friends in school, and help them to visualize in an easier way. And that was always something that was so natural to me. So when it came to my time to decide that I really needed to find a profession, I wanted to be a teacher. And that was my path through college. That's what I did. And I became a teacher. And I was a teacher in Brazil for 10 years, and I absolutely loved everything about it. So when I came here...

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:29

In the first place, what caused you to say, "Hey, I'm going to the US."

Vivi Robadey 03:33

My husband. So I met my husband in Brazil. He has dual citizenship. He's from an American family, but he was born here in the US. His family used to live in Brazil, and that's why he has, actually has recent citizenship. It's a long story, but anyway, so we met in Brazil. I was an English teacher there, and we met in a conference for English teachers, and after living in Brazil together for five years, he said, "It's now time for you to know my side of the world. And I think that we should give it a try. What do you think?" And that's how I ended up coming to the US. And it was a really interesting experience because I was already fluent in English. It was not something that language would be a barrier for me. I was, in a way, familiarized with American culture because we were living together. So I thought it would be an easy transition, and it was far from that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:53

What made it really difficult or different than what you expected?

Vivi Robadey 04:59

When I got here, many things came in. First was, I missed everything about home. And I didn't realize that even though I was very independent, independence here in the US means a completely different thing than what it means to me in Brazil. So I had to reframe that in my daily routine. So we had a period that I had to wait to change my status so I could start working. And I think the biggest part was exactly that everything, when I look back on my career, it was always about connections. It was always about networking, making friends, meeting people, and getting to know others that would look at me and say, "I can see something here. I believe in you. I believe in your skills. Let's try something." But because I was brand new here, I didn't have any friends, connections. That felt scary, actually terrifying. How am I going to use my tools, what I'm used to do to build those connections and relationships in a place that I don't know anyone? So I think that was the first most scary thing, that the scariest thing that I had to face.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:29

I'm curious, when you got here to the US, and in many ways, it was different than what you anticipated, what did your initial transition look like when you went from education into finance?

Vivi Robadey 06:46

Yeah, again, it was exactly what have always been in my life. It was knowing, being in the right place, meeting right people. I migrated to a Brazilian meetup group here in Denver, Colorado, and met some girls, and we are all talking about our struggles. And one of them, her husband, really wanted to learn Portuguese, and that's how I connected with him. And he is a financial advisor. And throughout our classes, and we built that relationship, that friendship, and he said, "Vivi, you have all the skills that I'm looking for in a person to help me manage my office. Were you interested in trying out?" And I said, "Why not? I need to work." And initially I thought I would go back and still be a teacher, but it was really hard the realization that I am a non-native speaker who is trying to teach English in the country of native speakers. So it was not very an easier path. And also, there was all the change in education, certificates, your diploma, take much longer. It was a longer process. And I always believe that education doesn't only happen inside a classroom. There's many ways to educate people. And when he explained to me what he did, it was the first glimpse to me that there's some room for education in there. You're teaching people how to manage their money. So maybe my skills in the classroom and my ability to connect with people and being pathetic can be used for this in this area. So that's how I entered the world of the financial advising system in the US.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:02

So what I'm curious about, though, is you spent, if I remember correctly, around 12 years in the same organization.

Vivi Robadey 09:11

In the very same company. Yes. But so I started working in the company in 2012 and I left last year, exactly when I realized that it was time for a change. But throughout those 12 years, I was not doing the same thing. Again, I have always been good at spotting needs. Places where or situations or roles that needed to be created or you would improve or streamline the processes and facilitate what they're trying to accomplish. So if you look at my resume, I had five different roles inside the company, and all of them I created for myself because I would find out they had projects, they wanted to achieve certain things, but didn't know how to do. And again, my ability as a teacher was to see that complexity and break down into things and actions, small actions, that we could actually transform an idea into something that it was an action plan. So every single role that I had inside that company, it was always, in a certain way, a creative role, because I was proposing something new to do what they were used to, but in an easier and more efficient way.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:01

So fast forward a little bit then. So you had this wonderful set of experiences after a very, very steep learning curve initially. And you spent 12 years in this organization in various different roles that you created, and it sounds like eventually something changed, and you must have realized that there were pieces of this situation that no longer served you. So I'm curious what those were, and what caused you to decide that you needed to make another transition 12 years later.

Vivi Robadey 10:59

Yeah, so I think that things started going down the hill when I didn't have more space to be creative anymore. That's when I realized that I was losing... There is no room for growth. I wanted to keep growing, but where I was, they were not ready for the next steps. And so instead of using my creativity and my problem solving skills, I started doing repetitive work because I had already implemented everything that it was possible to be implemented at the point. And don't get me wrong, there were room for growth. They were just not ready for it, and that's totally okay. As a business person, you have to evaluate, well, those are good ideas, but it's not the right time to implement them. And for a long, long time, that became a battle between me and my team and my work, because I kept pushing for that growth. But because they're not ready, they felt as I was being stubborn because I wanted to change. I have always been told that I'm a very forward thinker. I'm always two steps ahead. And if you just to give you a glimpse a little bit on the financial industry, the financial industry is very reactive, and at that time, for them, being reactive was okay. So that's when I started feeling that my soul was being crushed, and there was no more room for growth for me in there. And that's where I felt... and it becomes the guilt part because I had a good job, I had a healthy environment, I was not in a toxic relationship at work, I had the flexibility which was my top, my number one priority, I needed to go back to Brazil to visit my family. This has been like my thing since I moved here. I almost made my husband to sign an agreement with me as long as I can go back to Brazil annually, I can move in with you. And it's been 14 years. And yes, that's the deal. It's not the marriage license. It's, "Can I go back home every year?" And so I knew I had the job that allowed me to do the things that were important to me. So why was I so unhappy? I could not point it out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:32

I think that really is the situation so many people get into, where you're in this job, company, whatever, that was actually a really good or really wonderful situation, and then eventually you outgrow it, it's no longer serving you. And you have all of these wonderful elements, like in your case, you could go back to Brazil every year, and you had that level of flexibility. And I think most of us get really fearful of losing that, or if I'm going to make a change or if I'm going to do something different, that means I'm going to give this up. And I think that that's the place that so many of us get to. And I'm curious, was that your experience in this particular case, or...? So, tell me about that.

Vivi Robadey 15:22

Definitely. So I spent, I think I started feeling my first move to leave the company was actually back in 2019. That was the first wake up call, I would say, that I no longer fit in that environment. I needed to do something different. But at the time, I had a five year old kid, and I'm glad I didn't leave at that time, because soon enough, we had COVID. And actually that was what kind of helped me to move a little bit away, to put aside that feeling that it was so intense for me that I didn't fit any longer, and that in space, because we had to help so many people to navigate through COVID. So I was glad that I stayed for longer. And a few other changes with the company, we changed broker dealers, we went to another space. I had the chance to, again, to learn new things. So it felt that, "Okay. I think things will get better. Maybe I should just hold on a little bit." And if you ask all my friends and my husband, he'll say, "She was ready to go a long time ago. However, it was always that point." And if I'm making the wrong call, and if I don't find something that is at least as good as what I have now, it's not good, but it's not bad, so I should stay here. A lot of people would dream of having my position. Why am I being so stubborn that I should have something different? So it was an internal battle over at least four years. But I think that when the conflict started getting more intense and into 2023, and I saw myself shrinking. Waking up, I was never the person to wake up in the morning and dread going to work, and that's what it was happening to me. And I have always been a person who, look, I strive for balance. I'm not a workaholic, but I'm not a stay at home mom. I'm not, you know, the gym guru, but I need a little bit of everything. So balance for me was really important. And when my professional life started being unbalanced in the sense that I was not getting the excitement that I had, it doesn't mean that it was not hard sometimes, that I didn't struggle, that I had all the challenges that any person has in a professional life, but I was okay waking up every morning and go to work. When that was not happening, I knew that the pain of staying was bigger than actually the fear of living. That was the moment where I realized, no matter what happened, I have to go because, yeah, it might be a wrong call, but it might be a right call, and if it's the right one, and I'm missing out, I need to take the chance.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:00

So I'm curious, when you look back, do you think that you could have made that decision earlier, or do you think that you needed to go through those experiences to get to the point where you decided, "This is no longer a right fit for me, and I'm going to make a change."? Tell me a little bit about what you've learned out of that.

Vivi Robadey 19:19

I think that if I had left at that specific point, I would have just jumped into another job for the paycheck. Not that I was doing a meaningful thoughtful change of careers, which didn't happen to, we're going to get there, but it was not a change of career. But I was not able, or I was not mentally prepared to go through the hustle of self-awareness. Do the internal work to find out what really brought the spark in my eyes because, as I mentioned at the beginning, a lot of things that I do because you were so natural to me, and at that time, I didn't know about StrengthFinders. I didn't know about, "Now, look at your strengths and see how that fits in a position, on a role, in a professional role", everything was so natural to me. The coaching, the problem solving, the education, the guidance, I didn't see that as a value. For me, it was just who I was. So I could not picture how that actually affected my choices, my professional choices in life. I only knew at the beginning that I wanted to be a teacher. Period. Everything after that, I could not link my personal skills and my personal strengths to what I was so insisting on doing. So everything was just happened to happen, but it was not something that I was taking. I was aware of why I was making those movements.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:09

So that's so fascinating for you, in particular, because I think generally your strengths lend to looking forward into the future and anticipating and being more intentional. So I think it's so fascinating that for such a period of your career, it was... you weren't getting to operate in that same way how you do almost anything else, but weren't necessarily able to apply that initially to your career. So that's sort of, yeah, that's fascinating. So once you made that decision, and once you had your last day, what did your journey look like from there? Where did you, I'm going to call it the figuring out the next step portion, start?

Vivi Robadey 22:05

When I left, I had a long list of things that I knew I didn't want to. So I didn't want to be micromanage. Yes, but I-don't-want-to list. I don't want to be micromanagement anymore. I don't want to be filling out papers. I don't want to feel guilty when I take my vacation because the job is accumulating, and nobody else can do but me. So I had a long list of things that I didn't want to. But when I looked into things that I wanted to, they were all very vague. I wanted flexibility. I want a work-life balance. I want to be well paid. I wanted to be recognized for my talents. But what does work-life balance look like?

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:12

What does that even mean, right?

Vivi Robadey 23:14

What does that mean? What are my talents? What are my skills? What am I bringing to the table? So I knew I would not be able to get away from the situation. I could quit my job. Yes, it was not that hard. But not to get into that role, you know, that ball that I was just repeating the same thing again, I needed to look inward. I needed to understand myself first to be able to understand what I actually wanted and why I wanted. And that's when I found Happen To Your Career. I just went online and Google and I found the podcast. And I remember as if it was today, I hadn't taken notes of the episode, but it was an episode where every single word that she was saying, it felt like she was just describing my life. She had a good job. She had that conversation with her husband, and she didn't know. She just didn't know how to translate, how to name what she was looking for. And I started reading a book where he mentioned a quote that said, "An arrow without a target, never misses." So I knew I needed my target. I had the arrow, but I didn't have a target. And I was eager to find how could I create that target for me. And when I listened to that episode, it was life changing because I saw, "Hey, somebody did that. So there is a way to do that."

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:18

"So maybe it could be possible for me too."

Vivi Robadey 25:21

For me as well to figure that out. "What do I want?" That was that question. What do I really want? Because I think that my biggest fear was exactly that I would end up it could be a really good job again. It could be a good pay, but I was still feeling that lack of fulfillment inside me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:45

I, you know, I'm really interested, too, in how your ideas evolved, particularly around it. When we started talking here, you mentioned this idea of balance or flexibility, and my understanding is how you used to think about that is very different than how you think about that now. So what did you learn as you were going through trying to develop your target, or what we would call an Ideal Career Profile, what did you learn about what you needed for balance or flexibility?

Vivi Robadey 26:21

I would say that it's not that it's different. It was just incremented. I think I added more aspects into what I had as a basic thing. And then we can use the example of the minimums, the ideals, and the non-negotiables. So I think that my non-negotiables haven't changed. I still need the flexibility. I still need to be able to join my son's martial art game.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:50

Still need to go to Brazil on a yearly basis.

Vivi Robadey 26:52

Go to Brazil every year. Exactly. And but then I start adding other aspects as I recognize as I learn about my top strengths. This is where I understood that I needed a place that I can be independent, but also I can work in collaboration with others. We can brainstorm together, and we are in an environment where creativity is valued and is celebrated. That simplifying, optimizing, streamlining processes and deliveries are celebrated, and we are all working towards the same goal. For me, a different thing when you compare job scenarios in Brazil and in the US, one of the things here is it's all about what your title is. For me, has never been my title, It has always been how I fit in that job. So now that I have more clarity of my strengths, it's so easy for me to point it out where I fit and where I don't. So I was able to design what it was my ideal job, and it was not exactly about any specific company or any specific... When I decided to do my experiences, I was debating, "Should I focus on a company, or should I focus on a role?" But I lean towards the role because with a role, I could fit in and look what are the strengths required for you to perform that specific role. So for me, it was much easier having that to go and build my ideal profile career, rather than just focusing on a company that has good benefits and etc, I would go to my non-negotiables because then I could see the company's values also, what is my minimal income. But I had all of that in my previous job, and I was not happy. So that's why I pivot to the direction of I need to know what that role requires from me so I know if I will fit in, if it's what I'm looking for or not.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:30

You ended up, you did all that work, and you ended up at an organization, at a company that I think it's fair to say that you never expected to work for, is that accurate?

Vivi Robadey 29:47

Yes and no.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:49

Tell me about that. How did that come about then, and how did this happen?

Vivi Robadey 29:56

Actually, I worked with the company through my previous job. So it's a big institution here in the US, and my office was affiliated to that institution. And I was in the moment of experimenting. And one of the biggest fears that I had, it was the interview part of it. So I didn't know how it would perform in an interview. I had, as I mentioned, all my jobs and my job opportunities have always been out of the pattern. So I had never been formally, I've never applied to a job formally, and I had never been interviewed in a formal setting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:47

So that was new for you.

Vivi Robadey 30:47

So I was really worried about that. So I decided to start applying for positions just to practice what should they expect of an interview. How my nerves would work? How would that be able to perform well? Would I be able to come across and express myself as I wanted to? And I found this job, which was very interesting, because the company is not based in Colorado, and they said that for the right person, they were willing to do a remote job. That was also one of my non-negotiables. I wanted to work remotely. But my intention when I applied for that job, it was just to see how I would perform in an interview setting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:46

Interesting.

Vivi Robadey 31:46

But as the interviews went by, I got to know more and more about what they're looking for. It was exactly checking every single box of what I had it. They had at the department that they had gone through this transition, they were looking into being creative in implementing an educational program for new staff.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:12

Sounds weirdly familiar, right?

Vivi Robadey 32:14

Right. And I said, "Oh, my goodness. Is this real?" But I also,it felt really empowering to go on that interview knowing that I needed to interview them too, because I had my requirements, and they needed to prove to me that they were a good fit for me too. Because I think this is one of the biggest challenge for anyone in a situation that you're trying to find for your next step is when you do finally found a job that you believe it's a great fit, you will do everything to convince them that you are the right person, but you live outside the equation, something which is really important they need to convince you that they also are a good fit for you. And I think that going through the bootcamp gave me all the tools that I needed to go in that interview empowered. "This is what I need. And if it's not that way, I'm sorry. I appreciate your time and effort, but it's not what fits for me."And as you mentioned in many podcasts and even throughout the book, it's not about checking all the boxes and being the perfect fit. For instance, now I only have two weeks vacation, while before I had much more time, so I had to give up and negotiate a couple things. But just for the nature of my role and what I've been doing for this last two and a half months, and how much I have already learned, and things just keep coming and saying, "You're gonna have the opportunity to do that. If you are interested, you can grow that." So the feeling I have right now is that it's an unlimited situation where I can keep exploring and just growing. And I was blessed enough to have a manager who thinks exactly like me, too. And in our conversations about my former position, she said, "I can see where you felt the lack of stimulation, and you feel felt so frustrated, because for people like us, we need to exercise our creativity. We need to be able to implement and to move and to change. And no matter, everything... Changes are not easy. However, the reward that you get after the changes are so meaningful that it's so worth it to go through the hustle." So that's why we do it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:08

I love that. I am really interested in, as I think about your story too, is somebody who has... you've done a lot in your life. You move from a new country or move from a country to a new country, I should say. You switched industries. You developed roles for yourself along the way. You switched organizations again. What I'm curious about is what advice would you give to somebody else who is finding themselves in that same place that you were a few years ago, where you know that something is off and you know that you need to change, what advice would you give to that person?

Vivi Robadey 35:55

I would say the most important piece of everything is patience. This is not something that you can do overnight. And you will... As growth works, you are very uncomfortable, you get out of a comfort zone, and which is not easy, then you make tons of mistakes, you feel unsafe, you feel insecure, but then you start learning, you get the clarity, and that's when you start growing. So this is a path. It's not just across the street. It's a long walk. It can be intimidating. It can be scary, but I truly believe that the more that you work on yourself, you only can get positive results out of that. There's no way to be the other way around. Jumping from one position to another will not bring the fulfillment that you're looking for. So you need to stop. Give yourself the gift of time, and use that time in a proper way where you can first learn about yourself, learn what you want and why you want. And when you have clarity over that, you will notice that every step that you give moving forward will be intentional. So intention is very important, but intention can be, "I just want a better job." But what does a better job look like to you? So that's why inward work is so important. So we have to look within first. Do the internal job, face all the demons and self doubts and fears that you have, and then you can come out and see, "Okay, now I know what it's important to me. Now I know exactly what matters. I'm ready to move forward."

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:08

If you're at the point where you're ready to make your own career change and find a career that fits you, we'd love to help. Just drop me an email, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com, put 'Conversation' in the subject line, and I'll connect you with the right person on our team, they'll be able to have a conversation with you and understand the very best ways that we can support you in your situation. That's Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. And if you're absolutely loving these tips, these strategies, these stories, take a moment right now, hit the subscribe or follow button, and that way, every time we release an episode, you're going to get notified.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:07

All right, here's what's coming up on the very next episode of Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 3 38:49

I surprised myself completely with my reaction to it, because I feel like the old Kristen would have been really scared, fearful, anxious, overwhelmed, like, "Oh no, what do I do now?" But I flew. Actually the day I got laid off, the very next day, I had a family wedding in Florida that I was flying to, and so I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is great. I just got laid off, and I get to go party with all my family now. How amazing."

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:28

We've been taught that a layoff is something to fear, a career setback that leaves you scrambling for what comes next. But what if I told you that a layoff might be exactly the catalyst you need to create a career that you've wanted all along? Instead of a door closing, it's the universe kicking open the door that you've been too hesitant to walk through on your own.

Kate Gleason Bachman 00:00

I was quite disillusioned very quickly, and felt like I had made the biggest mistake of my life by becoming a nurse, even though this is something I had worked for. You know, it took me years to do the prerequisite courses and get prepared.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:14

We're taught that meaningful careers come from following your passion, but what happens when that path leads to a dead end? When your entire identity is wrapped up in your profession, admitting it's not working feels like erasing a part of who you are. I've noticed something that almost nobody talks about when it comes to a career change or a job change. Your job doesn't have to be all bad to not be right for you. The most powerful career breakthroughs often happen when you go from a career that has many positives into something that is a far, far better fit. But to do that, you have to have the courage to declare exactly what you want, even when it seems impossible. By the way, another misconception, sometimes the perfect career isn't about finding everything in one place, but instead it's creating the perfect combination for the life that you want to build.

Kate Gleason Bachman 01:08

I think what really drew me into the role of the nurse was the advocacy role. You know, that has always been something that's important to me. In doing the career change process, I was able to actually really hone in on that being kind of a core value of mine is to be an advocate.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:22

That's Kate Gleason Bachman. What's fascinating about Kate's story is that she made a significant change early in her career and decided to go back to school for nursing. But after a short time working as a nurse, she realized it just wasn't everything she had imagined. In fact, she felt a little bit duped because she couldn't care for patients the way that she thought she would be able to. So after hopping from organization to organization to find the right fit, she decided something had to give. Maybe it was time to make another career change. Maybe it was time to go after what she really wanted, even if that meant leaving nursing. I want to walk you through Kate's surprising journey of what actually fits her for her career. See, early on, Kate had identified a core value that guided her– social justice. This call to make a difference very much guided her initial career choices, and eventually led her to nursing as a way to advocate for others. And I think this happens to a lot of us. We start out with a value or a passion that feels right, and we follow it into a career or a job that seems to align.

Kate Gleason Bachman 02:29

In high school, I always had an interest in social justice issues, and I think from a young, young age, I knew that was going to drive the work that I did in some way. So I used to volunteer. I used to ride my bike to the next town over and then take the city bus to go. I'm from upstate New York, into Albany to volunteer at the Social Justice Center, which, you know, had all these different things going on. And I just knew that was kind of a world that I wanted to be a part of. So I ended up, you know, I went to college, and my first job out of college was working in public health research, and so I kind of found my way to, you know, public health as a way to, kind of work on social justice issues. And my first career change happened shortly after that, when I realized I worked there doing research, and then I actually worked for a training and technical assistance organization, not unlike the one that I work for now, actually, but at the time, I was really feeling like I wanted to be kind of closer to service delivery. So I was doing, you know, training and technical assistance and research, and I saw through visiting programs and health centers the work that nurses were doing and advocacy. And I was like, "Oh, I want to do that. I want to be a nurse."

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:52

Here's what I find happens with so many people. They have this vision or idea of what their career or occupation or company is going to be like, and they get into it pretty quickly without testing it out. And then the reality comes crashing down. When Kate enters nursing, she quickly discovers that healthcare in America was far different from what she had imagined. And I've seen the same pattern over and over again with many people, the reality gap between the expectation and the daily work can be absolutely crushing.

Kate Gleason Bachman 04:25

So now, looking back, I think it's a little more clear. At that time, you know, I became a nurse, I did a second degree program that just took a year, and so all of a sudden I was a nurse, and I started working in the hospital, and I, quite frankly, was really shocked by the state of healthcare in the United States. It was not what I anticipated. You know, I had kind of seen nursing as this model of care that, you know, took someone's global health into account, and, you know, their home situation and their mental health, and all the pieces that make up wellness for people kind of who we are. And I thought I would be able to apply that, and then I got into a hospital setting, and, you know, everyone wants to apply that, and it's so difficult and so fast paced, and the pressure is so immense around insurance and reimbursement and getting people in and out the door, and you can't, especially as a new nurse, put those things into practice, it's really challenging. And so I was quite disillusioned very quickly and felt like I had made the biggest mistake of my life by becoming a nurse, even though this is something I had worked for. You know, it took me years to do the prerequisite courses and get prepared to go back to do this second degree program. So I had been working towards it for quite some time, and then I got into nursing and was like, "Whoa, this is not what I thought it was going to be." It was really shocking.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:54

If you've been around Happen To Your Career for a while, you know that we recommend testing career experiments to make sure that you're putting in a little bit of work and to fully understand what you're getting yourself into. And I've linked up a few of those episodes and a couple other resources in the description so that you can check it out if you want to learn further about career experimentation and avoid this type of trap. But you know what I've also noticed, when high achievers invest heavily in a career path, whether it's time, money, identity, they often feel absolutely trapped when it doesn't work out. And this is exactly what happened to Kate. You might have heard this called the sunk cost fallacy by psychologists or even economists. And that past work keeps us in jobs that just aren't right for us, and the longer we stay, the harder it becomes to leave.

Kate Gleason Bachman 06:51

I mean, I felt devastated and trapped, quite frankly. That first job was really difficult. I stayed there for almost two years, just kind of getting my feet under me as a new nurse. And, you know, learning a lot, and, you know, growing in many ways, but also really being challenged. And I think one of the lessons that I learned in the career change process was to really look at what those takeaways were from each of the, you know, many people have had many jobs, and he was so useful for me to look back and think about like, "What did I take away from this job?" As difficult as it was, that made me grow as a person, that changed how I thought about myself and my work. You know, what are the things that I kind of carried with me? And I realized I picked things up all along the way of this journey that really made a difference in the end. So I learned a lot about working with people about healthcare in the United States, about, you know, being a nurse, just the basics of care that you kind of learn on your feet after being in school. So I kind of stayed as long as I could, and then I moved to do home care Nnrsing, briefly, home care hospice nursing, which I loved, but had a lot of challenges as well, in terms of the patient caseload and the amount of travel that had to that was part of it. And so finally, kind of pivoted to find myself back in the nonprofit sphere, actually, at the same nonprofit agency that I had worked at for my very first job doing public health research in Philadelphia. And so I found myself, I had, you know, through the years of kind of being in nursing school, and leading up to that, I had done work with people experiencing homelessness, and I found this job as a nurse in the city shelter system, and that was where I kind of started to feel like, "Okay, I'm finding my place as a nurse. This, I think, is where I can really do the advocacy and the education piece that I want." And so that kind of started this cycle of being in this, the nonprofit world as a nurse, which I ultimately decided, well, I'm still in, in some ways, but in a different way. You know, I decided to make a shift, but not for many years.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:05

Okay. Like Kate, when people go to make a shift, often the first attempt at career change is misguided. Why? Because often we try to make it when we don't yet have the tools, we don't have the perspective, we don't have the framework to make a truly meaningful shift. We're still using old ways of thinking to try to solve a new problem, and Kate's first attempt shows exactly this. She was still using the same thinking that got her stuck in the first place. This is a human tendency that most of us will do without even realizing it.

Kate Gleason Bachman 09:36

I worked in the shelter system for three years, and then as part of that same agency, then in a health center that worked pretty exclusively with people experiencing homelessness that's in Philadelphia. And I was feeling burnt out. That's kind of how I would describe what was going on for me. I was feeling like there was just... my work was coming home with me. There was so much going on. It was very, very chaotic. And I have a strong drive to solve problems, so an interest of mine. And so I really liked that aspect of it, but it was the volume of problems was so great. It was overwhelming to me. It was like a mismatch with my kind of need for balance in my life and the needs of the workplace, which were huge. And so that was when I actually first kind of saw myself as trying to make a career change within nursing, and that was back in 2016. So I had been a nurse since 2007 and so I had already been a nurse for quite a while, and I had decided that I really needed to make a shift, and I attempted a career change on my own, and it didn't go as I thought it would. So I made a change to still being a nurse, but working for a hospital system, I was hoping to have kind of more organization around my role, and just to be working in a little bit of a less chaotic environment. I think that's what I was wanting. And I was kind of trying to pivot to do something different. And what I found was that it was just not engaging to me at all. It felt very corporate, which is not my style.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:23

I want to highlight one of Kate's most powerful insights here– your job, your career, doesn't have to be completely terrible to not be the right fit. This is such an important lesson. And we tend to think, "Well, my situation is not completely horrible. There's actually a lot of great things here. Is it just me? And we tend to go through that emotional turmoil. But you don't need a horrible situation to justify making a change that even great jobs with good elements can still be wrong for you.

Kate Gleason Bachman 11:58

And I just felt like I kind of felt trapped there, too, to be honest. You know, I felt like I wasn't doing the advocacy that I wanted, and I was kind of stuck in, you know, I had swung very far from a quite chaotic environment to an environment in which I felt like I had no flexibility to kind of meet the patient needs in the way that I wanted to. And so that was almost more frustrating than the situation I had been in.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:25

Yeah, I could definitely see that really infringing upon that strong value of advocacy for you.

Kate Gleason Bachman 12:31

Yes, it was a challenge. I felt like I felt my hands were kind of tied in terms of doing what I wanted to do for the patients. So I didn't. I actually stayed at that job for less than a year, and then went back into a very similar role as a nurse in a different nonprofit in the city, which is the job that I was in when I sought your help. So, and that job was great in many ways, too, you know. There are so many things about it that were wonderful and it was still not a good fit, you know. And I think in terms of thinking about the kind of lessons learned from this process, another thing that really stuck out to me as I was reflecting on the past year since beginning this process is, you know, something doesn't have to be all bad in order for it to not be the right thing for you. And you know that I think was partly what was keeping me in those positions. There were a lot of things I loved about them, and it was not a great fit for my skill set and kind of the balance that I needed in my life. But I kept trying to do that because there were things that I was getting out of it, of course. And you know, it was fulfilling, and I felt like I was making a difference, and I had patience that I loved, and a great team, you know, all these things were wonderful about it, and it was still not a good fit. So that was a difficult and important lesson.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:59

As you can imagine, this conflicted pretty heavily with Kate's strong value of advocacy. I mentioned the identity obstacle earlier in the episode. We see career changers run into this repeatedly, and we don't think it's going to be that difficult, but it's especially true for professionals who have invested significant time or significant energy into their career path. For Kate, the struggle wasn't just about changing jobs, it was about who she thought she was. I found that without external perspective, this kind of identity conflict can keep people stuck for years or even decades or further than their entire life.

Kate Gleason Bachman 14:37

I think especially when you're, kind of, you're in your own situation, you know, it's difficult to kind of see yourself in an objective way. It's very difficult. And so I think what I was looking for was that kind of external view of someone to be able to analyze and understand what was happening, who wasn't me, who wasn't in the middle of it. And kind of hearing you talk a little bit about that challenge that people have with moving away from something that has some good components, I think for me, it was even more difficult because my identity was so enmeshed with being a nurse. You know, nursing had not been an easy journey for me. I had to work hard to find my place in nursing, and so much of my identity was caught up in being a nurse. You know, I'm a nurse. I help people. This is a passion of mine, and I really care about it. And so to even consider that that wasn't the right thing for me after having, you know, it's like a sunk cost fallacy, where I have done this for so many years, and how do I walk away from it. And my identity is so part of this. And so that made it even more difficult, and that was also why I felt like, you know, I need another person who's able to really look at all the pieces of this and help me kind of figure out what it all means. Because in the end, you know, what my coach, Alistair, really helped me to do, you know, the pieces of it were all there. It was a matter of putting it together, you know, like, your puzzle thing, and thinking about, "How do I think about this in a way that I can understand it and then make a change from it that, you know, is a change that will work for me?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:33

Here's another common misconception about meaningful work, or about career change to something that actually fits. People feel like that breakthrough moment is going to happen when you've stumbled upon this brand new career that you've never considered before. But the reality is that true breakthroughs almost always happen when you dig in, you get crystal clear about what matters to you, and then you go and test it out. So for Kate, creating what we call an Ideal Career Profile was a very pivotal moment, and this is a tool that we use with all our clients to help articulate what they truly want, rather than what they think they should want. And I've seen this process transform people's entire approach to their careers. It gives them a decision filter to operate from.

Kate Gleason Bachman 17:20

The thing that really launched the change process was the Ideal Career Profile and developing that. And, you know, I worked with my coach on that for so long, it was really difficult for me to get it going. You know, I was doing, you know, there are multiple exercises and ways to kind of approach it and think about it that you provide. And I was doing all of those things, and I felt like I was hitting a wall, and I was really, really struggling to create something that felt right to me. And so a piece of it was, you know, looking at my strengths, and that was illuminating and very helpful. And I just was having the hardest time, kind of, creating something cohesive. And I think in the end, when I finally got there, that was a launching point for everything. And within that process was the realization that I was able to come through with my coach, that I actually did not want to be a nurse. You know, I did not want to. I still am a nurse, but you can see I still have my identity. But I did not want to be a frontline healthcare worker every single day, and that was very hard to accept. And at first I was saying to my coach, "You know, this is important to me. You know, my identity as a nurse is important to me." And so he was reflecting that back to me, and that kept feeling wrong to me, but I couldn't quite put my finger on why. And finally, through this process of talking it out, I remember he said to me, like, "It sounds like you don't actually want to be doing this type of nursing work." And it took me a little while to sit with it, but once I was able to incorporate that and realize that was actually true, my Ideal Career Profile came together. Like that, I had a piece in there that was not meant to be in there that I was reluctant to let go of. And so once I was able to, I just had the best time writing that thing. You know, once I got there, I just remember spending so much time on it, and it was feeling, you know, I was truly in a flow state. Things were coming out, I knew what I wanted.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:45

Sometimes, life forces our hands in ways that we don't expect. I've seen this happen with many of our clients over the years, where you have a dramatic event, it becomes the catalyst that finally pushes them to make the change that they've been contemplating. Now for Kate, a workplace tragedy accelerated her decision to leave her job. While these events are painful, they often create the clarity and urgency needed to finally take action.

Kate Gleason Bachman 20:11

So, you know, to give some background information, I, you know, I had started thinking about, you know, I knew I wanted to make a career change. There were a number of reasons I wanted to do it, and I was kind of on this journey. And, you know, I won't go deep into all the things that were happening at the organization where I was, but there were some safety concerns. And at that organization, we had an act of violence, an active shooter event in which a colleague was killed. So it's pretty much the most horrible and dramatic thing that can happen in any workplace. And you know, I'm sure, unfortunately, you know, other people have had similar experiences, the violence in the workplace, and I just know the impact it's had on me. And so I just, you know, I just want to say to those folks, you know, it stays with you. And that's, you know, one of the things that I think I have learned, and I'll, you know, talk a little bit more about kind of how that altered my trajectory in this path. But, you know, that was a huge loss, and, you know, a loss of human life, but it also made me... It accelerated my career change process in a lot of ways. And looking back on it and thinking about that loss and the other things that I lost in leaving that job in a faster way than I anticipated that I would, is that part of the change process, I think, is loss.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:47

Here's a simple truth. What stops most people from being able to live the life that they actually want is giving themselves permission to articulate what they truly want. There's something powerful about having the courage to declare your desires, even when they seem impossible. For Kate, this man asking for a combination of what seemed outlandish, but as it turns out, articulating the direction she wanted to go was the first step to making it happen.

Kate Gleason Bachman 22:13

I think the final lesson that I'll say, and I've talked about it a little bit, but for me, the thing that I learned was just, even if it feels kind of audacious and out there is to really kind of say what it is that you want and that can be, for me, it was very difficult. It felt like I was asking for so much, and I hesitated to even say it. And finally, you know, in my example, my ideal thing was to find a job where I could work four days a week, and I could have one day to volunteer or work as a nurse in my community. And that just felt crazy. Like, how am I going to find this job? You know, how is this going to happen? And it felt outlandish, even saying that. I mean, outlandish, just saying I'm going to run an ultra marathon, in some ways, but I put it out there, and I really think that allowed me, it kind of opened my eyes to see opportunities in a different way. And what ended up happening is a former colleague of mine, who had started working for the company that I now work for, emailed me and just said, "Hey, we're having trouble filling this position, you know. Do you know anyone who would be a good fit?" And it was my job. Just looked at it and said, "This is for me. I'm not going to share this with anyone. This, you know, I'm going to apply to this job." And I think I had mentioned, you know, where I work now is also a training and technical assistance organization, very similar to where I had worked before. And I think had I not done the work that I did, I wouldn't have seen that as the opportunity that it was. But it was amazing that it came across through my email inbox and it was four days a week. And the reason was, you know, so that I, as a clinician, could have a clinical practice one day a week in my community. And so it has happened. You know, I said this thing that felt so outlandish, like, who is going to give me a job for four days a week so I can work as a nurse one day? And I now do. So I, you know, I started the job with four days a week. And actually, only very recently, in the past couple months did I find the right fit for that fifth day. And I'm working in my local Health Care for the Homeless Health Center, which is amazing. Yeah, it just felt like the most wild thing to wish for. But it happened.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:48

Career fulfillment doesn't have to come from a single source, and this is one of the most liberating realizations that a person can have. For Kate, discovering she could separate her different needs, having her intellectual work and her nursing practice in different places, this was the breakthrough that allowed her to create the perfect combination for her.

Kate Gleason Bachman 25:09

Yeah, it's amazing. I really am loving what I'm doing now, and it's been great. And you know, in hearing you say that, the other thing it makes me think of that I think I learned through the process, is you don't have to meet all your needs in one place. And that was a lesson I learned from the Happen To Your Career, your career process. And that, I think, was also what allowed me to kind of put that goal out there. You know, I wasn't going to find a job that had all of the kind of intellectual pursuits and writing and research and synthesis of information and being a nurse, you know, in the same place. And by being able to separate those, I was able to make it happen. And so that kind of idea of, you know, you don't get everything from one place necessarily, was kind of freeing to me to say, like, "Okay, I don't have to find something that has every single thing on this checklist. You know, the perfect job could be a component of this, and it could still be the best fit for my life."

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:12

Meaningful career change, it's not about leaving everything behind. Sometimes it's about reconfiguring your professional life to honor all the parts of who you are. Now, just to recap, here's what I love about what Kate did. When she had the courage to declare exactly what she wanted, which is not easy, in fact, it seemed impossible at the time, she created a unique path that perfectly supports her values, her strengths and her lifestyle needs. So remember, if you're gonna make a change in your life, whether it's a job change, career change, whatever, it doesn't have to be all or nothing. It never has to be. Usually there's a lot of room in between all or nothing. By separating her identity from her career and recognizing that she could use her nursing skills in a new way, Kate created something far better than what would have been possible through that conventional thinking. I don't want you to settle for what's expected. You can intentionally design a work life that truly fits who you are. If you're at the point where you're ready to make your own career change and find a career that fits you, we'd love to help. Just drop me an email, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com put 'Conversation' in the subject line, and I'll connect you with the right person on our team. They'll be able to have a conversation with you and understand the very best ways that we can support you in your situation. That's Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. And if you're absolutely loving these tips, these strategies, these stories, take a moment right now, hit the subscribe or follow button, and that way, every time we release an episode, you're going to get notified.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:45

All right, here's what's coming up on the very next episode of Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 3 27:50

So that's when I started feeling that my soul was being crushed, and there was no more room for growth for me there. And that's where I felt... And it becomes the guilt part because I had a good job, I had a healthy environment, I was not in a toxic relationship at work, I had the flexibility, which was my top, my number one priority, and so I knew I had the job that allowed me to do the things that were important to me. So why was I so unhappy? I could not point it out.

Jenna Bias 00:00

I realized it wasn't so much important of, like, what my next career title was gonna be, but it was more important for me what I wanted in a company.

Introduction 00:10

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:23

The great application myth tells us that more is better. Apply to 100 jobs, get 10 interviews, receive one offer. But what if this common wisdom was completely backwards? What if focusing on fewer companies dramatically increases your chances doing work that fits or higher pay? When you stop being a resume flinging machine and start being a relationship building human, everything changes. The path to your ideal workplace isn't paved with generic applications. It's built on targeted connections and the courage to go all in on what truly fits.

Jenna Bias 00:58

For some people, getting specific on your role could help. But for me, getting specific on the company is what helped most. But either way, I think getting specific is what's going to give you clarity, and it's going to allow you to get to the place that where I was, where I was putting all my eggs in one basket because I knew it was the right fit, rather than posting up on LinkedIn job boards and Indeed, and just putting your resume out there for umpteen places like that has minimal effect.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:29

That's Jenna Bias. Jenna was an RN who had worked as a bedside nurse for her entire career, and let's just say that it was no longer a fit. When she began to reach the point of burnout, she knew that in order to find fulfillment in her career, she needed to switch industries. Jenna began really digging into what she wanted and what she needed out of her next career, and narrowed down her search to just a handful of organizations, just a couple of companies that she was really excited about. She then went above and beyond in her attempts to build relationships with people at those top target organizations. In this episode, we're gonna break down what she did to go from unsure of where she fits to honing in on her dream organization and ultimately getting the offer she wanted. You're even gonna hear her talking about the strategy of using a video messaging tool called loom to reach out to multiple people at this company, including the CEO. Her persistence and determination ultimately got her out of bedside nursing and into a role as an onboarding manager with her ideal company. One of the most powerful things Jenna did, shift her focus from job titles to finding the right company environment. She discovered that getting clear on what types of companies she wanted to work for was way more important than the specific role that she'd type in for job search.

Jenna Bias 02:50

I got so lost in all the possibilities of different career types, and didn't know which one was going to be a good fit for me. And it wasn't until we kind of took the title, I guess, the career title off the table that I finally started to get some clarity. So I realized it wasn't so much important of like, what my next career title was going to be, but it was more important for me what I wanted in a company. So I got really specific about that. I knew I wanted to work still within the health space. I always loved, like, more of the functional medicine side, compared to the conventional medicine world that I was working in, in the hospital. I wanted a company that was having, like, impact on people, that was like, making a difference for the better. It was a big thing for me was, yes, I was working in a hospital setting and, "helping people", but it was a bit of a broken system, and there's much like a revolving door kind of analogy with the hospital. So moving forward, I really wanted a company that, you know, had a truly positive impact on people. I got really specific on the type of culture I wanted to be in, some ideals, but not deal breakers was types of schedule I, you know, was kind of intrigued by this whole work from home wave with COVID. And I like the flexibility of it. And I really wanted a big thing for me was autonomy in my role as a nurse, you're kind of blinded by the red tape of a hospital, and it dictates your day. I really wanted a role where I could, kind of like lead myself and have responsibilities that I took care of on my own. So none of those things point to one role, right? But you could theoretically find companies that really emphasize those things or prioritize those things.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:44

Once Jenna had identified what she was looking for in a company, well, she didn't just start firing off applications. Instead, she invested significant time researching her target organizations. This helped her build genuine connections later on when she eventually reached out.

Jenna Bias 05:02

I think the first part, which I kind of touched on, was like, just doing a ton of research, and that honestly came from, like, just my natural interest in the company. But I think in the long term: A, it helped me realize, yes, this is where I want to be. And B, it just helped me foster those relationships down the road, because I was genuinely interested in these people that I was talking to. I knew about them, I knew about the company, so that just helped be more candid down the line, because I didn't feel like I was like meeting strangers. First, it just started out as company research, and then it kind of led to, you know, my CEO is... so the company is technically like a startup. They've been around for a couple years now, but because they're a startup, kind of, based in San Francisco, in a very, what's the word, they're in the functional medicine space, right? So it's a very upcoming topic that's on the rise. So because of that, Rupa has been mentioned on several other podcasts. My CEO has been on several other podcasts. So just one step of research led to another, and I found myself just learning a lot about the company that way.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:06

In a world where everyone sends emails and just clicks the button to send online applications, Jenna knew that she was going to need to do something different, something very different, to stand out. The solution we worked with her on was brilliant in its simplicity– individualized video messages that allowed her personality to shine through.

Jenna Bias 06:25

I think too, the fear that goes along with it is like, oh, the potential of them not responding, which: A, I realize now it really doesn't matter. They get so much influx of information. It's like, "Who cares if they don't respond?" But for me, my CEO did end up acknowledging my video, and just sent me like a very like simple email back, like, telling me good luck on the interview process. And from there, I ended up applying to, I think, four different times through a few different roles, and every step of the way, I just shot her an email updating her on my journey, and she responded to every single email, not, you know, being like, nothing like extraordinary, but just the response in itself was like, to me, again, just exemplified this is a company I want to work for. Here's this busy CEO taking time out of her day to just shoot me a quick email acknowledging the work that I'm putting in to try and be a part of her organization. And then, yeah, as far as applying to multiple roles, it just came down to, I knew this is the company I wanted to work for. So again, rather than spreading myself then across different companies, I was like, no, I'm just going to focus here. And even though I actually got denied initially for my current role, obviously, in the end, it ended up paying off. I applied the second time, and I think a large part of that was because I had already touched base with the hiring manager. We did already kind of have that rapport.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:51

If it's not already obvious, rejection is a very normal part of any job search. Actually, when I get rejections, or when our clients get rejections, I tend to look at it as, "Okay. That means I'm one step closer to getting where I want to go." But the important part here is what you do after you're rejected, and this can set you apart. Jenna shares how her persistence and continued relationship building eventually led to success, even when she first got turned down for the role.

Jenna Bias 08:20

Yeah, and I think this is valuable for people who are "switching industries", which I was. A big, like, limiting belief for me was, you know, why, especially in this industry, and I was like, why would they want to hire a nurse? Like, my job is so different. And on paper, I'm missing some key things that they're looking for. And I think to an extent that is true, like there is certain things that they are hiring for in their new candidate. And I think the first time around, they found that candidate who had all those things, things that I, you know, no matter how long of a nurse I was, I was never going to have, because they were totally out of my realm. But in the second time around, I think they're a little bit more lenient on what things are willing to give up in hiring a candidate, because I'm exemplifying so much else in staying consistent with applying, building these relationships, staying committed to the company. I think those things like speak volume, and so I think they knew that I was a good enough fit, even without maybe some of those key bullet points on the application because of the actions I was doing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:31

Kind of an interesting note here. When I asked Jenna what advice she'd give to others who are looking to make a similar change, she emphasized two critical factors that made all the difference in her own journey.

Jenna Bias 09:43

Yeah, I think a few things, like, I kind of touched on this before, but getting specific whether I mean, like I said, I think for some people, getting specific on your role could help. But for me, getting specific on the company is what helped most. But either way, I think getting specific is what's going to give you clarity, and it's going to allow you to get to the place that where I was, where I was putting all my eggs in one basket, because I knew it was the right fit, rather than posting up on LinkedIn job boards and Indeed, and just putting your resume out there for umpteen places like that has minimal effect. And I think people do that because they're not really sure what they want. They're not, they're not specific, so they're just kind of, like hoping something's gonna stick. It's just not a very effective approach. So I think once you get specific, you're able to kind of hone in on how you can be effective in getting the role you want. And then I think, which is funny coming for me, because I'm not typically this type of person, but like being different, getting outside of your comfort zone, and kind of thinking outside the box, I had only ever applied to nursing jobs. That was the only career before this, and it's very cut and dry. It's very much, "Do you have the licensing? Do you live in the area? Do you have all the educational components?" It's not about creating relationships. It's not about putting yourself out there. So I didn't know that this whole side of the application process existed and was so impactful. But it is. It's like, when you go on LinkedIn or on job boards and you look at a job and you see, "Oh, 300 applicants." Like, for me, that was always really off putting, because I'm just like, "Okay, I'm just one person. I'm just one application." Which you are. You are just one application. So if all you're doing is submitting your application, you're probably not going to get it. Just the odds are not in your favor, right? So I think in this job market and in today's day and age with just how like innovative people are, like you have to do something different if you want to get to where you want to be.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:50

What Jenna did wasn't just about landing a job. It was about completely rewriting the rules of her job search. She took control instead of sending applications into the void, she did so by building real connections. This allowed her to not settle and instead focus on where she actually wanted to be. Oh, and when she did face rejection, she didn't slink away. Instead, she asked for feedback. She strengthened those relationships and positioned herself as the obvious choice when the next opportunity arose. Her willingness to stand out, using video and thoughtful research, turned her from just another applicant into somebody the company already knew. What I love most about Jenna's approach, it's accessible to anyone. You don't actually need special connections or credentials to stand out. You just need clarity about what you want and the courage to go after it in a thoughtful relationship focused away. Okay, if you're ready to stop doing the whole numbers game and move your job search into a targeted relationship building process, we'd love to help. Just drop me an email, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com put 'Conversation' in the subject line, and I'll connect you with the right person on our team who can help with your unique situation. That's Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Remember the path to work that fits isn't about how many applications you submit, it's about finding the right fit and then showing up as your authentic self to build connections that matter.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:14

Hey, I want to point out that if you're absolutely loving some of these tips and strategies, then hit the subscribe or follow button, and then, that way, every time we release an episode, you can get notified. All right, here's what's coming up on the next episode of Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 3 13:31

I was quite disillusioned very quickly, and felt like I had made the biggest mistake of my life by becoming a nurse, even though this is something I had worked for. You know, it took me years to do the prerequisite courses and get prepared.

Cheri 00:01

I'm not stressed out. I'm not frustrated. I'm not spending my evening dreading the morning. So I have the space in my brain to focus on life, like making dinner and spending time with my family.

Introduction 00:20

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:45

What if the most profound impact of an intentional career change wasn't about the job at all? Imagine a transformation so deep that it rewrites not just your work life but how you show up for the people that you love the most. Most people chase career changes, hoping for a better title, better paycheck, a solution to their happiness. But what if the real gold was hiding in the moment of being able to speak to your partner without work induced irritation, or being able to not worry about your phone and what's going on at work during family dinner, or in having the energy to truly listen to your child's day instead of being mentally exhausted?

Cheri 01:29

I'm just a happier person. I'm a better partner, I'm a better parent, I'm a better friend, because I'm happier.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:36

That's Cheri Thom, and this is what we like to call a "Where Are They Now?" episode. Cheri began working with us back in 2020 when she was desperately trying to escape a job that was making her miserable and negatively affecting her entire life. And if you haven't already, you can listen to the first parts of her story in our episodes 570 and 571 and I would encourage you to go back and take a listen to those if you haven't already. That way, you can get the full picture here. But after really digging into her strengths and defining her must-haves in her ideal career profile, Cheri did a great job of figuring out what she wanted and then finding organizations and roles that fit her. Ultimately, she landed a job that she loves, and then she got a promotion after less than a year. Pretty cool, right? It's now been three years since she made her intentional career change, and we invited her back on the podcast to reflect on these changes and see how her life has been since then. In our conversation, you're going to hear how she still uses, to this day, what she learned about herself and her strengths to continually tweak her definition of ideal and grow her career. So, let's jump into this conversation. But here's Cheri discussing how her role has progressed since she started.

Cheri 02:56

I had been a business analyst for many years prior to that, and knew I wanted to take a role that was a little bit... had a little bit more responsibility. I loved being a business analyst. I wasn't entirely sure that that was where I should be at that point, but I wanted something with more responsibility. So I did product owner certification, I did scrum master certification, and I took this job as a product owner. And what that meant to me is that I was responsible for the business analysis, which I loved doing, but also that I got to participate in some of the decision-making. So I would help guide our customers to making the right decisions for what they needed. I was there for about a year and loved my job, loved my team, loved the people I worked with, loved what I was doing. Everything about it was fantastic. Not to say that it didn't have its pains, but overall, it was super happy there. And then it was a little before I was there for a year that my boss offered me a promotion, and I did not immediately take it. I was like, "Are you sure?" And I spent about a week thinking about it. I talked with you. I talked with lots of people. I spent time figuring out if it aligned with what I wanted because I honestly wasn't sure, and I didn't want to step away from this job that I loved and that I was really good at, and to do something that I didn't love and I wasn't good at. And I talked it over with my boss, and I told her my concerns. I was like, "Okay, I want to do this, but I don't want to be not good at my job." And she was so fantastic. She's like, "Well, what we can do is we could start interviews, and if you like the people that would be your boss, we can go that route. If you don't, you can change your mind later, and we can hire a new product owner." So she just gave me some options, and I ultimately decided to take it, and I'm still really happy. It's been two years. I lead a team of product owners and data analysts, and it's been a huge learning curve. Strengths get in the way a lot, but it's been great.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:53

So let me ask you about that time, two years ago, then. So obviously you and I got to meet at that time period, and from what I remember of our conversation, you had already started going back through your ideal career profile and then trying to basically check the boxes, for lack of better phrase, and determine what lines up what potentially doesn't line up. And then we had a conversation about what could line up even better than you imagine. What do you remember about that time period? What was your focus on?

Cheri 05:31

I think after being in a job where I was unhappy for a long time, for me, one of the most important things was to be happy in my role. I didn't want to be in a spot where I was like, stressed out or didn't like what I was doing, and so I needed to make sure that this is going to align with all the things that I'd learned, right, my strengths. And that's a big one. And I mean, what I wanted. And, you know, I reviewed the job description, I talked with my boss, I talked to lots of people to think, to kind of gage if they thought it was going to be the right fit for me, which I know seems strange, but you know, sometimes people have a different perspective view than you do of yourself. And I just needed to make sure it was going to be the right fit for me, because I didn't want to end up in a spot where I wasn't happy.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:17

Do you remember any of the pieces where you were not entirely sure about? Like, as you were going through your ICP, or you're having those conversations with friends or other people that knew you, what were some of the pieces that popped up that seemed questionable at the time?

Cheri 06:34

My biggest concern was, I'm very blunt and direct, and I was really concerned about having the tough conversations with people. And it's still a concern every time I have a tough conversation with someone, but what you told me was, "make sure you're being helpful", and that has been so impactful to me, because that's what I do in every conversation I have. I just try to make sure I'm being helpful. So people appreciate, you know, straightforwardness. I don't know that they always appreciate quite how blunt I am, but I do my best to make sure that I'm helpful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:05

When we were going through and we were having that conversation, I also remember one of the things that you had mentioned to me was you had a concern about, "How am I going to learn this?" Not just around the communication pieces for making sure that your version of direct and blunt is also helpful at the same time, but in some other areas too, as you're transitioning from one role to another, and you recognized, I think rightfully so, that there was going to be a learning curve associated with it, and you didn't want the expense of that learning curve to drain out the enjoyment that you had grown accustomed to. It sounded like. So I guess my question is, how did you go about addressing that learning curve?

Cheri 07:57

I'm still learning. I think my boss is phenomenal and has been like a true mentor and has guided me in all of the things. I still make mistakes. I am accountable for making mistakes, the mistakes I make. I read a lot. I reach out to people to get their take before... if I've done something that I'm a little bit unsure of, I ask for feedback, like, "Was that okay? Was that not okay? What could I have done differently?" Yeah, it's a process. I continue to learn every day.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:33

Okay. So here's a totally different question. You've done a lot of work digging into your strengths when you went through that initial career change. How have you found that you use that knowledge of yourself and your strengths as you've grown your career and, ultimately, what your version of ideal looks like?

Cheri 08:53

All the time, every day, achiever is one of my strengths. It's probably my top one. It is often in the way because I'm very much a person who likes to get things done, to check them off the list. And as a people manager, I can't be the one who checks them off the list. I have to help others check them off the list. And not everybody works the same way I do. So that's been probably my biggest struggle, is allowing that to be okay with me. You know what I mean? Like, obviously, they can work however they want, and I just have to be okay with the fact that not everybody works like me, and not everybody learns the way that I do. And so I think that's recognizing that that's the achiever in me has been huge. I think, had I not done this, had I not gone through that exercise and figured out what my strengths were, I don't know that I could take that step back and recognize that it's me getting in the way of myself.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:46

You know, I think also that raises the question for me, how do you find that you're able to take some of this knowledge that you've accumulated for yourself and help your team grow in their roles and make their work a better fit in one way or another? Because that's part of what I think I hear you alluding to, like, everybody works differently, right?

Cheri 10:08

Yeah, yep. It kind of ebbs and flows on how much I focus on it. But I have, on more than one occasion, recommended that they... specific people at my team, not all of them, but look into what their strengths are, what their style is, how they work best, how they learn best. Last year as a team, there are 14 of us. We did the MBTI, and it was really interesting, so interesting to see how some of us were alike, and some of us were so different, and the people that I thought were like me were generally the opposite, and vice versa. So that was really interesting. But I think it's important to know ourselves and to learn these things about ourselves, so I do recommend those kinds of things to my team. Can't force them to do it, but I like when they do. Makes my life a little easier.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:03

So, tell me more along this line of strengths, then. What else have you found that has changed how you're looking at how you're doing work in order to lead with your strengths, or in order to focus on where you can best contribute?

Cheri 11:17

So one of my strengths is learner, which you know, when I'm reading about strengths, a learner is either learning or teaching. I'm a terrible teacher. Horrible teacher. And so that has been, as a people manager, that's been kind of a struggle. Like, I want to be learning, but I need to be teaching and I need to be coaching. So I've been spending a lot of time figuring out how to be a better coach. So you know, reading different articles, reading different books, asking more questions.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:47

What I hear you say is that you recognize that you're a learner, and for you, that means spending lots of time learning and then working with other people as you're learning to improve yourself, and then working with other people to help them improve. And part of the way that you're doing that is by coaching. It sounds like part of the learning you've been focused on has been learning to ask better questions, learning to be able to allow other people to...

Cheri 12:22

I have just been, like, "I'm not a good teacher, and I need to figure this out, but I'm a great learner, and I need to help them to learn." I like that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:31

Well, sometimes you have to come on the HTYC podcast to be able to put it all together. Like, that is what we do around here. No. But seriously, though, I think that just knowing what I know about you, that I could absolutely see that being very, very, very true, because you do have this, not just propensity to learn, but also this need or desire to be able to learn. And I think for you, from everything I know about you in the past, I've seen that you also apply it really well to whatever real world situation that you're in, as long as you're feeding that learning, and as long as you're seeing how to use it with other people. Is that right?

Cheri 13:15

Yeah, that's absolutely true. And we had talked about one time before that in previous jobs, I wasn't feeding that learning quite enough. And so I find things outside of work where I could continue to do that, because it is such a strong part of me. And here I've, I mean, in this new role, I've spent, I mean, every day still learning stuff. So keep it at work. Keep my learning at work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:40

Well, that's fun that you get to roll that into something that you get to contribute for in that way, and then certainly get compensated for too. And that's not right for everybody, but it sounds like it has been for this period of time for you.

Cheri 13:53

Right. And it's, I love learning about myself and how the brain works and different things like that. So I think it's been really, it's been fun for me too. It's not just been valuable to me and my team, but I think it's also been fun for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:05

Yeah, that's cool. So tell me a little bit about, like, as you reflect on the last two years, these couple of changes, what do you feel like you've learned about what creates a more fulfilling career for yourself?

Cheri 14:21

It's a really good question. I think the autonomy and the mastery that you mentioned that, like, I know that's just human nature, but I think that that has been so important to me to be able to really have ownership of something and be really good at it. If I'm not good at something, I'm generally not happy doing it. So I think that was my biggest struggle. I think when I decided whether or not I wanted to take this job was, if I'm not going to be good at it, I'm not going to be happy, and I needed to be happy because I was so happy in my previous role, and then continuing to be able to do things that allow me to grow as a person. So, you know, the learner we just talked about, and then every day, even outside of that, I learned something new about the platform that we work on, of a business that we work with, or the people that I work with, and I think that's really fun for me, too.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:09

How is it? Here's a kind of crazy question for you, but I'm curious. Three years ago, you made your initial career change. Well, not I mean, you made changes before, however, let's call it the first intentional career change. And with that intentional career change, that was very different from what you were experiencing just a little bit longer than three years ago. How is life different now compared to when you were in that last job before your intentional career change three years ago?

Cheri 15:44

I'm just a happier person. I'm a better partner, I'm a better parent, I'm a better friend, because I'm happier. That's been huge.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:53

That's amazing. Do you find that other people notice too? How do you know you're happier? I'm curious. That sounds like a silly question, but...

Cheri 16:05

Well, I get dressed in the morning.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:07

That is a good sign.

Cheri 16:09

Which I know, like, that sounds so stupid, but where I'm currently at, we have our cameras on all the time. And where I was previously, we never did. I never met my co-workers, like, I would talk to them, I could see them on the sidewalk, though, and never have known who they were. But I would literally work in my pajamas, and I don't do that anymore. I get dressed every day, which, like I said, I know that sounds stupid, but it's a thing. I needed to be a little bit more put together when I started my day. And I think that that was just a symptom of me not being in a place where I was happy and fulfilled, like I worked in my pajamas.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:46

That's interesting. So for you, like, getting dressed and getting, whatever your version of readied for the day, was a sign that you felt that it was worthwhile or worth your while, right? Versus previously, you just scrolling in your pajamas because it was not a great experience for you, is what I'm hearing, so.

Cheri 17:13

And I mean, I'm much calmer.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:15

How does that show up? Like, how do you...?

Cheri 17:19

Yes. I have a teenager. I don't yell nearly as much as I used to, and granted, that's something I've also been working on very intentionally, but I'm 100% a yeller. And I think just being in a role where I'm truly happy, because that's one less thing that I'm stressed about and one less thing that I need to yell about.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:38

That's really cool, actually, that is amazing. And also I would imagine that being able to be in a role that you are feeling much better about, probably gives you more of the headspace than to focus on, like, I heard you say a moment ago, like, "I've been... That's something I've been working on intentionally." But that probably gives you the headspace to work on that as well.

Cheri 18:00

Right. I'm not stressed out. I'm not frustrated. I'm not spending my evening dreading the morning. So I have the space in my brain to focus on life, like making dinner and spending time with my family, and, you know, whatever those things are.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:19

That's really cool. It's really amazing to me how distress, particularly, not necessarily eustress, because there's multiple types of stress. Eustress is often known as the good stress, and distress the bad stress. That's not exclusively true. However, for the purposes of our conversation, distress for long periods of time, it's funny now it just zaps or dissolves all other energy. It's crazy.

Cheri 18:46

Yep, all of it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:49

Well, here's a totally different question for you. I think that something I am curious about also is one of the cool things when we get to have somebody come on after a couple of years of experience and time lapse in between, is that often having that initial intentional career change changes how they do other things, not just in work, but also in life. So I'm curious what else might have changed along the way for you. And then also, I'm curious what advice you might have for someone else who is wanting to make way back, think three years ago, somebody who's in that situation where they're thinking about an intentional career change. So let's do those one at a time. First, where else have you seen your life change because of that intentional career change?

Cheri 19:48

My husband is wanting to make a shift. He's been doing the same thing for a very long time with different employers, but the same general thing. He's been wanting to make a shift. And I'm going to use the word harp, but I talk at him all the time about how he needs to put in the work, and he needs to figure out what he wants to do, and he needs to, I don't tell him to do an ideal career profile, but I tell him, like, the basics– you need to figure out what your ideal day looks like. How do you want to wake up? What do you want to wear to work? What do you want the setting to look like? Trying to make him focus, or kind of reframe his thoughts because he and I have talked, and he's not a dreamer, and I think you and I have talked about that too, like I was never a dreamer. I never thought about what I wanted this kind of like abstract thing to look like. So I think having gone through this program, I have gained a little bit that I try to help other people with if they're wanting to make a shift in one way or another. And it doesn't even necessarily need to be a career, it could be they want to even grow at work. What does that look like for you? What do you want to be doing? So one of my team members and I have been having a conversation about what she wants her future to look like. And so, you know, I am like, "Well, what does that look like for you? What's your ideal? What do you need to have to make that happen?" And then, once we had that like, it basically gives me an outline of where I can help her grow so that she can get to where she wants to be.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:23

That is really cool. That's really awesome, actually. Here's the reason I love that. Because... Have you and I talked about our secret mission before at all? Have we had that conversation? Would you like to know the secret mission? I actually don't have to... If I tell you, I don't have to... Nothing has to happen after that. No, seriously, though, our secret mission is to be able to work with enough people that are in positions or grow to be in positions that they have the authority or influence that they can then help the organizations, and certainly the people in the organizations, be able to get to their own personal version of fit too. Because the reality is, we're not going to work with every single person in the world, and if we really want to make an impact in the way that we do, then there has to be a ripple effect. So thank you, by the way, for honoring the secret mission you're now inducted in. Yes. You were doing it without even knowing it. Way to go. No, seriously though, that's a big deal. I think it's really cool for you to be able to, one, do this for yourself and then start to apply that learning, which is what you do anyway. We already established that earlier. You can't help but do that, take that learning, those things that you've done for yourself, and be able to help use it become applicable for other people. And I would guess that that is probably incredibly valuable to the people that you get to work with in one way or another. May not always feel comfortable, but that doesn't mean it's not incredibly valuable. That's pretty awesome.

Cheri 23:08

It's one of my favorite things to do, which I just realized right now, is to... and part of what I learned on other people. Like, if I've taken even snippets of something away from something, I like being able to pass that along so that other people can have that knowledge. When I started teaching yoga, and that was why I did it, so that I could offer it to other people for free, who I felt like needed to have 10 minutes of yoga in their day.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:36

When did you start teaching yoga?

Cheri 23:38

In 2016. It was one of the things that I needed to do when I needed something to learn.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:43

I guess this was one of the outside of work, things that you were searching for. That's cool.

Cheri 23:48

Yeah. And I wanted to, I worked with all these people who, you know, we sat at a desk like this all the time. So, you know, and I wanted to be able to do yoga for free with these people. I didn't want them to have to pay for it, and so I did yoga teacher training, and then I started teaching at work, and people could take class for free, because I wanted to be able to give them that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:10

Yeah, that is really awesome. And now, years later, you're noticing the pattern that that's a thing for you and that's important for you.

Cheri 24:19

This is a good conversation we have. I do take things away from this.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:23

Oh, my goodness, you heard it here first. So totally different question then. What advice would you give to other people who are in that place? Now that you're three years removed from an intentional career change and you've been able to continue to build on what you have learned through that initial career change, and now you're into, what we would call refinement of your career, what advice would you give to people who are way back and just thinking about making a change for the first time?

Cheri 24:55

My advice is the same as it was when I first did this. Know what you're running towards, and make sure you're running towards something and not away. That was advice that was given to me years ago by a friend, and it has stuck with me, and it's been such a driving factor in a lot of the things that I've done. Basically have a goal. Know what direction you're headed, because otherwise, you're just driving around aimlessly, going nowhere.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:22

I love it. Do you have anything else that we didn't already cover?

Cheri 25:26

Oh, the last time we talked, I had mentioned... So one of the questions that you had asked me was, "What happened when things got hard?" Because they absolutely did. And I told you about a conversation that I'd had with someone, I don't even remember who it was. It was someone who was going through Happen To Your Career. And we were talking on LinkedIn one day, and I was venting about this job that I had applied for, and everything seemed great, and I was on like, the third interview, and they're like, "Oh, wait. This job is not remote," and it was hours away from here, so it's not something I was going to do. And I was so upset about it because it was really... It was the one I felt like. I need to point these things have a way of self-filtering and that, like, my attitude was crap then, and those few little words made such a huge impact into my attitude about the whole thing, and that's what helped me to kind of trudge along to end up where I'm at now. But that was the other thing I had in my notes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:22

What were those few little words?

Cheri 26:24

These things have a way of self filtering.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:25

These things have a way of self filtering. They do. I agree. Strange.

Cheri 26:32

Absolutely. Like, there was a reason that one didn't work out, and it was because it wasn't the right one for me for one reason or another. And so when he said that, it kind of like gave my brain the space to think that way and be less upset about it and continue on until I found the right fit. But yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:49

That is... I've thought a lot about this over the years for that type of advice because if some people believe in fate or that things happen for a reason, and for a long time, I was sort of back and forth, like, "I don't know if I believe in fate or not." However, here's what I've realized, is that the psychological impacts of choosing to believe things happen for a reason far outweighs whether or not you're actually right about whether or not they happen for a reason or not. So I'm just gonna go with what serves me really well. You could be... Yeah. What did you say earlier? You know, when that initially happened, you were, I don't know, less than excited. I can't remember what word that you used.

Cheri 27:40

I had a crappy attitude.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:41

You had a crappy attitude, yeah. So you could continue to have a crappy attitude. Or you could choose to believe that it happened for a reason.

Cheri 27:48

Right. And it led me to the path that I am now on, which is I'm very happy with, so...

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:55

Very cool. Okay, if you think about career refinement as opposed to career change, so the continuous act of refining and re-establishing your ideals, what you want, and then also your minimums, which also have a tendency to have your expectations increase in both areas once you've done something as difficult as an intentional career change. So my question is, for people who are in the place where they want to continue to refine their career, what advice would you give that person?

Cheri 28:31

I have this post it note on my desk that says "We can honor who we are as people and still push ourselves." And I think that has been... I read it every day, and I think acknowledging who I am, what my strengths are, what my weaknesses are, who I want to be, but still kind of pushing on some of those weaknesses, anti strengths, has been a big thing for me. It has helped me to grow in my role. It has helped me to grow as a person. It's helped me to be a better version of myself. So I think finding something that is meaningful to you, maybe. So this little statement, for whatever reason, is just meaningful to me, and it kind of helps me to find a trajectory I want to be on.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:20

That's fun. I love that one too. You know, earlier, you were talking about how it was really important to you since you were already in a role that you were excited about and you loved to not just make a change because it was right in front of you, or it was available to you, or people were asking. And so I know part of the goal was just to continue to move into a role that you loved. What did you find? Were there areas that were even better than what you could have imagined, or what ended up happening there?

Cheri 29:57

I think that there are areas that are better and then there are areas that are worse. So this has been a little bit of a push for me, because it's definitely outside of my comfort zone, or it was outside of my comfort zone. It's a little better now. But, you know, we talked about having those tough conversations, that's been a real challenge for me. I don't, because I'm very blunt, and I don't... I'm not in the weeds anymore where I love being, and so that's been a little bit of a challenge. But I love that I get to continue to grow, and I get to help other people grow. Love that. And I don't think I necessarily expected that when I was deciding whether or not I was going to take the job, that's not really something that I factored in, is that's what I got to do, and I love that part of it. And just as a side note, I have told you this so many times, but I am so grateful that I went through this because it's just changed who I am as a person. It has, it's given me more confidence that I am making the right decisions for myself and being able to help others make the right decisions for them. So I'm just so grateful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:04

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:56

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 32:02

I realized it wasn't so much important of, like, what my next career title was gonna be, but it was more important for me what I wanted in a company.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:12

The great application myth tells us that more is better, right? Apply to 100 jobs, get 10 interviews, receive one offer. But what if this common wisdom was completely backwards, especially if you're going after work that actually fits that you enjoy? What if focusing on fewer opportunities, maybe even just a few perfect organizations for you, could dramatically increase your chances of landing work that fits? When you stop being a resume flinging machine and start being a relationship building human, everything changes. The path to your ideal workplace isn't paved with generic applications. It's built on targeted connections and the courage to go all in on what truly fits.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:59

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it, and if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player, so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week, until next week. Adios, I'm out.

Stephanie Drumright 00:01

I was so worried about not getting a job in time for my visa expiring, that I thought, "Oh, I need to go out there and pretty much blast as many organizations as I can in order to make sure I'm optimizing the touch points with different companies."

Introduction 00:24

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:49

What if I told you that applying to fewer jobs could actually increase your chances of landing the role that you want?When a job search gets urgent, there's almost this instinctive reaction to throw everything at the wall and begin to see what sticks. We convince ourselves that applying to more jobs in more industries are going to absolutely increase our chances. It seems like a numbers game. But here's the thing, we have helped thousands of people absolutely transform their careers in the last 12 years. And what we've seen is that's not true. Even though this pattern shows up and it's a human thing to do, the more targeted that you get, the fewer jobs that you actually have to apply for, and the more likely that you're going to be able to do so in a quality way, and the more likely you're going to be able to land a role that you're actually aiming for as opposed to just anything.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:44

That's Stephanie Drumright. Stephanie is now the head of operations at a successful FinTech company. But it wasn't too long ago where she was racing against a ticking clock because she was laid off, and that meant that, since she was on a visa, a work visa, on a different country, at any moment, she could have a 60 day deadline begin where she needed to secure a new role or face leaving the country. Panic set in, and she did what many of us would do to cast the whitest possible net, applying to 145 different jobs, only to face multiple rejections and crickets. But something pretty fascinating started happening when Stephanie narrowed her focus. Instead of applying everywhere, she got really specific about the role that she was going after–what she wanted–and began building relationships and networking with intention. Now the result here was multiple job offers, two specifically within a week. And her journey perfectly illustrates what we've seen with thousands of clients. Getting hyper specific about what you want almost always leads to better results than casting a super wide net. And Stephanie's story isn't just about landing a job, it's about resilience, protecting your mental health during uncertainty, and trusting and knowing that what you want is a faster path to success by far. Okay, so here she is discussing what led her to possibly losing her work visa and being unable to move forward in the country she wanted to be in.

Stephanie Drumright 01:44

And it just felt like something was not quite working, and something was not quite there. And I really attribute that to this net that I was so broadly casting. And I think that as I was having conversations with people about what I want to do, and I was really starting to think about the type of environment I wanted to be in, it was still, oh, so many possibilities.

Stephanie Drumright 03:52

My background is that I had joined a company, kind of very early on, right out of university, and I joined this organization both for what it did as a tech organization, it was remote working software, as well as the opportunities that it was going to potentially have where I could live and work abroad. And within my first sort of year and a half that actually came to fruition and moved to Dublin where I spent a couple of years there, and the company supported me and moving over there. And then in 2015, I sort of built a business case to move myself over into London where more of my team was based. And in doing that, you know, for me, where I landed in London was primarily just I was supposed to be on assignment. And what that meant was just sort of two years based in London, and I could extend, I knew I could extend my visa, but I knew I had a cap at five years. So as it turns out, within my first year, I absolutely fell in love with London and just felt like this was absolutely my place, and I also made a name for myself within the organization by being kind of the person who is focused internationally in an operations and business systems capacity. But at the end of the five years, I had to actually leave the country, and that was a huge disappointment. I was on the right type of visa, actually, in order to stay in the United Kingdom. So I had to go through the process of packing up all my stuff, saying goodbye to all my great friends, and leaving. But I had already established with my organization that my goal was to spend the year I needed to back in the States, only to then return to the United Kingdom and get on the right visa, and then stay here for the long term. And then I got back to the UK, and it was quite a stressful time where, you know, in the roles that I was in, there was a lot of movement and transition within the organization, and it, you know, it just sort of ended up being a little bit more challenging, I think, to find my footing once I was really back in London and really kind of owning my role in the way I wanted to. I had some really great leaders throughout the time in which I was based at this company, and my particular leader at the time, the VP of workplace transformation. She and I were working on a lot of things around my career advancement and how I could move up into a director role. And, you know, the kind of the qualities and the skill set that I'd identified and that she'd identified would be things I needed to work on, and we were really closely working on a path which is exciting for me. Unfortunately, she moved on for the organization, and that left me and my team a little bit in limbo. And so this really kind of brings it all back around where at the beginning of 2024, me and my whole team and a significant majority of the organization were actually made redundant. So I found myself, you know, two and a half years back in London, and I need to get to the five years, and I am, you know, there's a garden leaf set up here. But basically that meant that I sort of had three months until my organization would formally inform the government that I was no longer employed and they were no longer sponsoring my visa.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:34

So at that moment, what did that feel like?

Stephanie Drumright 07:38

Yeah, it was horrible. I will say it was one of those things where, because I'd been working at this company for 12 and a half years, and I had put so much time and effort and just love for the business into everything that I was doing. And I think I had, as I mentioned, just made a name for myself. I think, you know, I was seen as a real go to person around the organization, and I think it was tough, because I think I'm generally a very intuitive person, and I think I have the ability to kind of know when something's not quite right, and I think that I should have listened to that intuition earlier on when certain signs were indicating that me and my team might not have the strongest landing spot when our leader was then exiting the organization. And I think that for me, I look back at that time and I remember feeling very, just disappointed in the organization, very... I felt like, yeah, for someone who spent so much time with the organization, it felt like they didn't really care. And that was tough. That was really, really difficult for me. But I also think that I can respect that my time ran out there, and it's probably for the better, right? So, you know, I think as saddened as I was to have been let go in that way, I think the work that I've done to sort of reconcile that in my own head, the, you know, again, the timing was just the timing, and I had to be okay with that. The major concern for me was the visa sponsorship, though.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:24

Yeah, that's what I'm very curious about here, too. So you and I got to have a couple of conversations. And you know, what I remember was that it seemed like you were, I don't know, prepping for the worst, maybe is a good way to put it. It seemed like it put an intense pressure on your job search, and that racing against the ticking clock so that you could secure sponsorship before time potentially ran out. What I'm really curious about is, how did that urgency impact your mindset and your approach during this time?

Stephanie Drumright 10:06

Yeah. It was really twofold, right? Because of the way my sort of contract had worked with my previous organization, I still had three months of garden leave before, again, I knew that the organization would inform the government of my lack of sponsorship. And then I knew that the way it works in the UK is that then the government has the particular amount of time to sort of process that, they can do it very quickly, sometimes they can take much longer, but once they process it, then there's 60 days until I have to leave the country if I don't have a job. So I was looking at this end to end, sort of, five months. And I thought, "You know what? If I really put my head down to it and I really figure out what I want to do, I truly believe that I can find a job that will sponsor me, and it'll be the right one, and I can do it in five months." So there was part of me that was feeling a little bit comfortable, and I think that was nice because it actually allowed me to stop and really think about what I wanted to be doing. But yeah, so I guess, from my perspective, initially, I was feeling a little comfortable, but then when we spoke, that's when I was really starting to panic. The absolute panic was setting in, and I think we were speaking probably, yeah, when I maybe had a month or two left.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:38

Yeah, absolutely. Can I read you something really quick that I think maybe illustrates? This is a little bit of what you sent us. And it said, "Hey, I've applied to 91 jobs in the past four months. About 30% I'm getting rejections. Another 30% I'm hearing nothing about. 15% I'm not qualified for because of my visa status, and another 15% I've heard back from and typically had a first round interview." And in those, I often seize up because of performance anxiety. And it feels like maybe that illustrated right where your head was at the point in time where you're, you know, approximately any moment from 60 days away till you have to leave the country.

Stephanie Drumright 12:22

Absolutely. I mean, you're taking me back into those moments of utter chaos and frustration and kind of it was the lead up to a bit of panic and terror, really. But yeah, so it just was, it felt a bit crazy that I had applied to 91 jobs by that point. So, you know, I ended up applying to 145 jobs before I had received my first offer, and then I received my second one after that. But, yes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:49

Well, let's talk about that, because there were many things that you did along the way that didn't work, but there were also quite a few pieces that did work, or eventually, as you were learning along the way, turned into something that worked. And so I'm curious when you, you know, when you first got to that point where it's like, "any day now, could be the 60 day ticking clock, and most of what I'm doing at this point seems to be not working." What do you remember was the first change along the way where things could actually start working, or you could start to see a path forward? Tell me a little bit about.

Stephanie Drumright 13:35

Yeah, it's a great question, and I think there's a couple of things. I'm very quite process oriented, so I had already built myself a bit of a regular kind of cadence around how I was applying to roles and doing so on a day by day basis, and then getting interviews and really sticking to a schedule. So that was very helpful, and I had been doing that prior to reaching out to you all. But again, it just felt like something was not quite working, and something was not quite there. And I really attribute that to this net that I was so broadly casting, and I think that as I was having conversations with people about what I want to do, and I was really starting to think about the type of environment I wanted to be in, it was still, oh, so many possibilities. And I was able to, sort of, through conversations, narrow that down a little further, but when I was listening to a lot of your podcast around that kind of ideal company profile and ideal role, I was sort of like, "You know what? This feels like I need to have this conversation." And that, to me, was probably like one of the biggest defining moments, I think for me, when Phil and I started to do that work together. Because, again, I had already done a lot of that. It was just more so validating the, like, what are the more specific things that I think about when I go about my day, and what I want that to look like in the next number of months, years and so on. And I hadn't really gotten so detailed. I hadn't really specified, "Oh, I won't travel more than 45 minutes on a commute", or, "I want to go into the office three times a week, at least", but no more, you know. So I wanted a hybrid working model. And then I knew I wanted that head of ops role, and then I knew I wanted to be in an organization that was really no bigger than 250 people. So it actually allowed me to get down to the specifics of that. And what I actually think one of the main reasons I actually think that was so important was not only did it give me a bit of peace of mind around what I was applying for, and it allowed me to be more specific and to go for those things, when I actually then started to get those interviews with those types of companies, yes, I still got plenty of rejections because of the visa stuff. But when I then kind of started to get those interviews, a lot of those size companies were actually very willing to sponsor. And so I'm sort of in that range and then it was, like, the massive companies, but there's, you know, real difference there in terms of style of, you know, organization and working. But yeah, I guess that to me, was a real validating point. Yeah, it felt super right once I had defined that, and then was really going after those types of companies in that role, and then I was feeling very validated once I got those interviews.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:50

So let me ask you about that. I think that what you just shared, there were so many important pieces wrapped up in there. So I'd like to go over a few of them and see if we can break them out, so that people can use these insights, because they're subtle. They're very subtle. The first thing I heard you mention is that what really made the difference for you was going from casting this really wide net where you thought you knew what you wanted, going to a much, much smaller or maybe more specific net where you were targeting a higher degree of specificity. So here's my question for you, almost everyone that we have worked with in the last 12 years believes that they are being pretty specific, like, that's the place where we get to talk to everybody, and I'm honored that we get to help people through in that capacity, and get what they believe is specific to a very, very high degree of specificity. And I would say that, you know, in your situation, what I'm really curious about is, what do you think worked for you to get to that different level of specificity?

Stephanie Drumright 18:02

Yeah. Well, I think that I had, again, started with thinking about my skill set and what I really enjoyed doing in the jobs that I have had over the course of the prior 12 years. Knowing that I'm very much a people person, knowing that I'm very much process oriented, and knowing that I wanted to bring delight into new ways in which people work, there were...

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:33

I love that about you, by the way. That came across that you want to bring delight into the ways that people are working. That stood out from our conversations, too. So that was just a fun thing for me, selfishly. Thank you for putting that into the world. I appreciate it.

Stephanie Drumright 18:48

I'm glad. I'm glad. It's really important to me that that is how I think about operations, right? And so I think that, as I was thinking about then, "Okay, those high level things, how do those apply into the skills that I have, and what is really going to light my fire within me and really get me excited?" I did a lot of work to kind of take that through and go, "Okay, here are the different kinds of roles I could potentially do, and the ones that I might really enjoy as well." You know, I really enjoy being in the room and having the tough conversations and being part of the decision making and being the process of decision making. I really enjoy, again, the people aspect of work, mentoring, coaching, guiding. You know, I, again, really want to make sure that people are happy with the ways they work, because we come to work every day, we shouldn't, you know, we shouldn't be a slog. Everyone should be enjoying what they're doing and how they're doing it, right? So, you know, again, I thought a lot about, "Okay, there's four or five different paths I could potentially take." A couple of them felt a little bit more, I think, ideal in the sense that they felt like a bit of a step up. For me, that was particularly kind of going into and seeking out these head of operations or sort of director role, Director of Operations roles, and also kind of, I was looking at Chief of Staff and things like that. Then there was the project or program management type roles and kind of still being in a managerial position, but pursuing that, and that felt very just, kind of like, a horizontal transition for me, but yeah. And then there were a couple other things that sort of seemed interesting, but I probably would have to start much lower down in the totem pole and then work my way up, and I wasn't quite prepared for that. So I think by actually taking that broader step back, thinking high level about what I like and what I want to do, and then associating some of the things that I've really enjoyed throughout my career, and then breaking it down further as too well, where does that apply into potential roles that I might want to do. I did then a significant amount of research on the different role types on LinkedIn. I talked to various different leaders who I both worked with in the past, but also I did a lot of networking and reached out to lots of people and just had conversations about what those types of roles look like. So I did a lot of research. I would say, then, going back to the casting the net wide, I was so worried about not getting a job in time for my visa expiring, that I thought, "Oh, I need to go out there and pretty much blast as many organizations as I can in order to make sure I'm optimizing the touch points with different companies." And I think that's where it was good in lots of ways, but it also showed me, and I bet if I went back and looked at my analysis, it showed me which ones I was actually really excited about. And that then more naturally as I met with Phillip, you know, we really broke it down and identified that the head of operations role was the one that was right for me, and that's how I wanted to pursue it. And it was also a step up in the right direction for me, I felt. And I think that can, obviously, that can sometimes be very scary for people, and I think that's one reason maybe people, you know, don't often kind of immediately jump to pursue that. I certainly felt that way. But I think the more I practiced reviewing the job descriptions, tailoring my resume, you know, contacting these organizations that were hiring head of ops, and the more I interviewed for those types of roles, the more I realized, "Oh, I am well qualified for these types of roles."

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:50

We've been doing this for 12 years at this point, and I am amazed over and over and over again. It doesn't quite make sense, but it happens almost like clockwork when people can strategically focus, like you did, narrow down on what they want, and then do the really often difficult work of, you know, whatever it goes going to take to make that happen, essentially, in their world. And then it seems to, it doesn't always perfectly work in a, you know, certain time frame, but it does, consistently, over and over and over again, deliver results. It's almost strange. It's not magical, though, when we come back to it. The reality is, you did a really great job honing in on what you wanted. And then you, I almost liken it to, I don't know, like, way back before we had GPS, and even if you were driving without a map, like, let's say that you knew, similar to, "you knew when you wanted to be a head of operations at a smaller organization, and you knew all these other pieces that were really highly specific" so you knew generally where you want to go, much like, if I know that I want to drive to, I don't know, New York City or something, New York City, New York, and I'm starting out in Washington State where I live, even if I don't have a map, still going to be able to eventually find my way by continually heading in that direction. And it's not magic how you get there, you know, may take a thousand wrong turns and have to, like, stop and ask people and all the things, but eventually you get to New York City, and eventually, in this case, you ended up at an organization that you were excited about with an offer that was a miraculous fit in an operations type of role that you were looking for. So congratulations on doing the work.

Stephanie Drumright 24:44

Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah, it feels really great. I've landed in an incredible company with brilliant people. And, you know, it's both a great cultural fit as well as the role fit, as well as being something that I know I'm gonna have growth opportunities as well. It's exciting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:06

One thing that we didn't talk about yet that I really wanted to ask you about. So okay, as way back when you and I were having a conversation about how we could help, and I was thinking through your exact situation. One of the things that was going through my head was, well, number one, at the time, how do we find a strategy for you that allows you to be able to get exceptions made for you? Because that's really what we were talking about. We were talking about this super short time frame. We were talking about the fact that not all organizations are willing to or need to or bother with sponsoring or visas or that whole entire process. There's plenty of people in the market that why should they need to in the first place. So as you went into some of those interviews, or as you targeted some of those organizations that were potentially a fit, what did you find set you up to get exceptions made for you?

Stephanie Drumright 26:07

It's a really interesting question because I actually experienced some things that were quite surprising where I thought that exceptions would be made. And some of the things that I've done were applying through referrals, which is usually a very good approach, and I highly recommend that no matter what, you're much more likely to get looked at in the interview process, and potentially they're more likely to make exceptions. Unfortunately, I found quite a number of those that just weren't going to allow that again, just by nature, especially of the situation I was in. So I actually started to take a different tact, and it's a little different to kind of what you're asking here, because in the end, I don't think the exceptions necessarily worked out. What I did was, I did some research on companies that actually had visa sponsorship. So I started with, "Oh, I know that they sponsor visas", so that was a good thing. So definitely knowing that they have visa sponsorship, good start. What I then did was, and me and my coach talked a lot about this, was, do we say it up front, or do we get through the interview process a little bit more and then hope that they're willing to make an exception? I am not a person who likes to kind of hide things, and I felt that was not going to work in my favor and also potentially just gonna be a waste of my time. So I actually took the approach of disqualifying quickly. And for anyone who has a sales background, that is what you have to do. You have to go in there, and you have to get the no as quickly as possible, and you just gotta know when to walk away. So for me, that actually was really helpful because it felt like I was then taking the control in those situations. I was the one going into those conversations saying, "I need a visa sponsorship. I'm really excited about this role. I know you guys sponsor. Could you tell me a little bit more about that?" In some cases, unfortunately, companies do have a visa sponsorship license, but they specifically save the visas that they will sponsor for very specific kinds of roles that are difficult to hire for within the country and where they do want to hire people externally and bring them in. So it might, one of my roles was just not one of those. So I still found a lot of rejection from that, but at the very least, I was the one being upfront and going, "Okay, you can't meet my requirements. And this is a requirement I have." And I think a little bit of that switch in my brain around this not being a limitation of me getting a job, but this being one of my requirements I have to getting a job, really changed the narrative in my head and really allowed me to go, "Cool. I can walk away without feeling ignored or frustrated by this."

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:19

That's awesome. And I think that what I'm taking from that, in your case, you had to find the, I'm going to call it mental path, or maybe even the psychological shortcuts that worked for you, to be able to go in and show up in the way that you wanted to. And then also, you know, back to what we had said before, just targeting the right situations that are more likely to create the end result that you're looking for sets you up for success, and even then, it's still a numbers game, but it's the right numbers game, as opposed to, let me apply carte blanche to anything that I can, and it ultimately led to the result that you were looking for. That's cool.

Stephanie Drumright 30:01

Exactly right.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:02

So, I think here's one of the things that I want to know, you know, at this point, now that you've done that, what advice would you give to other people in that similar situation where, you know, maybe they even have their back up against a wall in, you know, whether it's in the way that you did, or another totally different way, it would be really easy to then not focus on what you want and accept anything, but you didn't. What advice would you give?

Stephanie Drumright 30:31

Yeah, it's a home. And the moments of weakness I certainly had with the, "I'm just going to accept anything, and it's going to be fine." And to be honest, I did go through some of those processes as well, right? I got one. It was still a great opportunity. But it's funny how it ended up working out, where, actually, when I... So to take a step back, when I really was in a state of just I was just so frozen and just not knowing what to do, just very frustrated and whatnot, the getting back to the basics was a huge momentum builder again. So I would highly recommend that when you have a moment where you've received that rejection, feel it, but jot down what you've learned, talk to other people about, you know, what learnings can be taken from those rejections, and then work to figure out how to implement that, and then get back to the basis to build more momentum moving forward. Because, like you said, it's not going to magically work out. You have to know where am I headed. I needed to be visualizing that constantly. I actually sat down on the couch every single day for one month, and I visualized what it would feel like going into an office again and doing a specific head of ops role, and I put myself in that continuously because that allowed me to go, "I'm going to get there. I know it, and I believe it. I just haven't found the right thing." And so there's a matter of believing in the end possibilities that you will achieve. There's also a matter of believing in oneself that I can do more than I ever potentially, you know, expected. And I would say the sort of last piece of advice is you can't control everything, and at some point you have to only focus on what you can control. And this was very difficult when your back is against a wall and you're experiencing rejection for things that you cannot control, and it just eats you up inside. But if you can separate that out and go, that's completely out of my control, and these are the things I can do and the steps that I can take that are within my control, mentally, that's a game changing moment, and I highly recommend meditation around that, visualization around those things, and an ability to just, you know, get out that you're frustrated, but also then recognize that you're doing all the right things because you are, right? If you're in the work, you're doing the right things that are going to get you to get you to where you need to go, and then trust in the process. This was my mantra throughout the nine months I was searching for a job, and it felt very, not fake initially, but I truly had to lean into that mantra by the last sort of two to three months or so of my job search, and particularly in the last month of the lead up to getting two job offers, it was very much like I have to trust the process. The one other thing I'll say about the fact that I had one job offer was for a really great role at a fantastic company, I was so excited to work with these people as well. There was something that I was just... I was waiting for the offer to be finalized, and I was waiting for them to come back with kind of what my expectations were, and hopefully they would meet that. And they were taking a while. And it was really, I was speaking to my mom, actually, and she was like, "Look, this is so great. You have an offer. It's not as much money as you want, but it's a great company. It's probably going to be, you know, a really good thing, but don't stop your momentum. You never know what could happen. So get off this call with me and go apply to four or five jobs. Just see what happens." And I did. And I got a call back from two the next day, and I then met with the talent acquisition partner for one of them that I was really excited about. I then was fast tracked because they knew I already had an offer being upfront with them about that. And I was fast tracked to meet with the hiring manager, and I was fast tracked to meet with two more of the executive leaders, and after meeting them and then the CEO, I had an offer within eight days from that organization, and that's the actual company that I ended up working for. So it's just one of those things where you just sort of never know, but don't let up.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:54

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:47

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 36:52

I'm not stressed out. I'm not frustrated. I'm not spending my evening dreading the morning. So I have the space in my brain to focus on life, like, making dinner and spending time with my family.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:07

What if the most profound impact of an intentional career change wasn't about the job at all? Imagine a transformation so deep that it rewrites, not just your work life, but how you show up for the people that you love the most. Most people chase career changes, hoping for a better title, better paycheck, a solution to their happiness. But what if the real gold was hiding in the moment of being able to speak to your partner without work induced irritation, or being able to not worry about your phone and what's going on at work during family dinner, or in having the energy to truly listen to your child's day instead of being mentally exhausted?

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:52

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it, and if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player, so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week, until next week. Adios, I'm out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:01

You know that feeling when you're staring at your computer and you've got this really important thing you need to do, maybe you even know exactly what you need to do, but for some reason, you just can't start? Or maybe you start, and then 30 seconds later, you're researching the history of paper clips or reorganizing your desk for the third time this week. Yeah, that's ADHD for you. And if you've had similar experiences, this episode is definitely for you. To be clear, I'm not a doctor and I'm definitely not diagnosing you, but we made it for you.

Introduction 00:38

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:01

So here's the thing that a lot of people don't understand about ADHD. Society has created all of these boxes, these systems that we're supposed to fit into– show up at nine, focus for eight hours, remember every detail from that meeting last Tuesday. And when you're wired differently, those boxes can feel impossible. But I want to talk about something that doesn't get mentioned enough. Having ADHD can be a pretty massive advantage, too.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:31

No, seriously, the way that your brain is wired can cause you to be able to do things that other people can't– make connections that other people miss entirely, you can hyper focus on things that you're really passionate about that would exhaust a neurotypical person, you're probably more creative, more innovative, and maybe even more willing to take risks. The problem is not your brain, as it turns out, the problem is you're trying to force your differently wired brain to operate like everyone else's. It's kind of like training to run Mac software on a PC. It's just not going to work well. And I've lived with ADHD my entire life. My three kids have it too, and it shows up very differently for each of them. And over the years, I've developed a whole tool kit of strategies that help me harness ADHD instead of fighting against it constantly. So today, I want to show you some specific things that have worked for me, not abstract advice, like, "just try harder or maybe use a planner or a journal", but instead actual strategies that I use every single day to get things done, stay focused when I need to, and ultimately, build a career that works with my brain rather than working against it. By the way, the more that you find ways to work with your ADHD rather than allowing it to work against you, the more you'll start to see it as a benefit rather than an obstacle. So let's jump into this, and let me show you how you can make that happen.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:04

And actually, this episode was inspired by an email from Jess, who's one of our listeners and also one of our clients. And she wrote to me after learning that I also have ADHD, and she was curious about how I managed to stay productive despite the challenges. And let me share a little bit of that email to give you context here, she says, "You know, I just listened to your full audio book to reinforce the process. I was shocked to hear you mention that you have ADHD as do I. And you seem like a focus master to me with so much good work standing behind this. You touched briefly on some coping skills that you've learned to help support. But I'm curious if you have any recommendations, reading podcasts, personal advice for how to keep your ADHD focus in check. All about routines, pomodoro, time management strategies, how do you get your executive functions to function so well?" That is the purpose for this episode. What I'm sharing today is based on personal experience, although some of the ideas were inspired by science or research, these are strictly my experiences, which means it's not going to work for everyone, but hopefully you can find just one or two strategies that you can implement and pull from and make it work for you right away. And by the way, I should also mention that even though there's a lot of things that I do, it's still a continuous struggle to execute.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:26

Let's talk about strategy number one, optimizing your schedule. The first big game changer for me is figuring out when my brain actually works best. For me, that's between 10am and noon, and that's my golden window. So I try and focus my most brain intensive work during that time, the stuff that requires real focus and clear thinking. Sometimes those are key meetings. Sometimes it's writing, sometimes it's just problem solving that is very intensive. Whatever needs my best brain gets scheduled in that window. Does it always work perfectly? No, of course not. Life happens. But knowing when my brain has its peak has been incredibly helpful for planning my days. And the key isn't forcing yourself to be productive at 9am if your brain doesn't come online until 11, it's about working with your natural rhythm and finding what works best instead of fighting against it constantly. By the way, I use something that has been I've heard it called a master schedule over the years. I didn't come up with this idea myself, but I love it. I, on a regular basis, usually about once every two months or so, I'll go through and create my ideal schedule, my ideal schedule for when I'm spending time with my family, my ideal schedule for what in type of work and where I'm blocking certain items. And then, although it's not an actual schedule, it's not my calendar, it's not meant to replace my calendar, the idea is the same as when you do a budget– how can I allocate more of that time and build a plan for that so that I have a higher possibility, a higher chance of scheduling things when they actually fit. So I actually did this before I had my own company too. It was much more difficult to do when I worked for another organization, but it still allowed me to make choices that I wouldn't have been able to make otherwise. And, you know, schedule meetings during certain times. So that master schedule, we'll put a link to that in the description and notes here.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:33

Strategy number two, environmental engineering. What I call environmental engineering, or basically spending a ridiculous amount of time setting up my environment so that I don't get distracted later, is so helpful. It has been for me. My office is arranged so everything I need is within arm's reach. My backpack has specific spots for every single item so that I don't waste time hunting for things. I have multiple laptop chargers, one for my office, one for my bag, one for downstairs, so I never have to go searching for one when my battery's dying. These may seem like small things, but for someone with ADHD, every tiny friction point can completely derail your focus. That moment of, "Where's my charger?Because I just hit 9% charge left" can turn into 45 minutes of reorganizing the entire desk drawer in my office. So it's about removing as many potential distractions as possible before they even happen. I'm not trying to be perfect at focusing. I'm just trying to create an environment where it's a little bit easier to stay on track.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:40

Strategy number three, weekly planning. Another thing that's been absolutely essential. My wife and I do planning every single week. We sit down together, we map out what's coming, make decisions in advance, basically create a game plan. And when we skip this ritual, which sometimes happens because, you know, life, that week is always more chaotic, it feels more stressful, and in many ways, is less productive. So now we treat it as non-negotiable. And for me, this weekly planning session helps avoid so many potential ADHD mishaps when I know what's happening exactly each day, when I've already decided what needs to get done, and when I don't have to make those decisions in the moment, everything goes better, because decision making is exhausting. And when you have ADHD, everything can seem equally important and equally interesting. And then I get shiny object syndrome all over the place. But having that roadmap doesn't always mean I follow it perfectly. It does give me some guard rails, and the guard rails are really helpful when your brain likes to veer off in random directions. By the way, one thing we use to even keep us on track during the session itself, which helps me tremendously, they use an agenda that, literally, we use it as a checklist every single week, I keep it up on my second screen so that I can see it, and we go through every item.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:05

Strategy number four, exercise, diet supplements. Exercise and diet play a big part of regulating my focus for me. They can also play a big part of taking away my focus for me too. So for example, I worked out really hard during strength training this morning, and by noon, my brain was dead. But also on recovery days, I can focus a lot harder than what I normally do. By the way, Amy Dickerson, a coach on our team here at HTYC, she has had a lot of experience with ADHD. Her son has ADHD, and collectively, we've worked with a lot of clients here that have ADHD. So she had some interesting things to say about how exercise has helped our clients be more productive.

Amy Dickerson 09:48

Sometimes I even just suggest that even if they can't do a full on exercise, that if they're able to just get outside for a minute and change the environment and just do like a short burst of something to kind of get, you know, all of that energy kind of going back again in their system, because exercise works so well for them. And it's interesting, because I've had a couple of clients who have ADHD that they were talking about how the exercise really just helps to get them in a certain area of flow. And as a matter of fact, I have one client who was very interesting, she had a very interesting share that I found that just the observation to just be wow. And it was that when she exercises, she says it gives her body kind of like, you know, like a surge, and it gets things really going to the point where she feels like the rate of her body now is moving and matching the speed of how her brain works. And so when that happens, she says she feels as though that's when she's in her flow and can do it. And I was just blown away by that thought, because it makes so much sense, because, again, they have so many thoughts going so fast that now your body is aligning with that. And so, yeah, we create this sense of flow. And so I thought that would be a great place that when you finish exercising, that could be a good moment where some of those questions that have been challenging to answer. Some of those questions where you feel like you've been struggling to get clarity, that could be a good time to then address those questions right as you finish your workout, where you're still in that high and you're still in that flow.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:35

Another thing I've experimented with quite a bit is various different types of supplements and nootropics– Alpha Brain by Onnit, and by the way, this is, you know, not sponsored by them, but it was really useful to me to help focus, it helped me write two books. In fact, I found high dose methyl B12 to be very, very useful. And of course, coffee is a go too. Which did you know coffee is a nootropic? I found that these or things like this, when combined with a really clean diet, allow me to focus much, much better overall. And I find that when I, you know, when I have a bunch of sugar, or which I don't eat normally, or when I go off of that, then it's so much more difficult for me to focus, so much more difficult. And by the way, things like B12, coffee, even Alpha Brain that I mentioned earlier, I will take breaks on those after a couple of months. But every two months or so, I'll take two to four days off of coffee. And in fact, all caffeine to allow my body to reset.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:39

Strategy number five is sleep. If there's one single thing that makes the biggest difference in managing my ADHD, it is probably sleep. I have spent years fine tuning sleep habits, and it's been worth every minute. I use an aura ring to track sleep quality that gives me pretty useful data to understand what I need to change for my sleep. I've gone through pretty much every recommendation in many, many different books. By the way, one that I found most helpful is called sleep smarter, and it does a nice job of creating a checklist of things to do to get ridiculously good sleep. I've tried them all. You can try them too, but you'll be able to find the right combination for you. That's what's going to be important here. High quality sleep makes night and day difference for at least my ADHD symptoms. And when I'm well rested, my focus is sharper, my impulse controls so much better. I'm less likely to get overwhelmed at any given moment. Conversely, when I am sleep deprived, everything that is a potential negative for ADHD gets amplified. By the way, if you're experiencing negative aspects of ADHD and you're not prioritizing sleep, that's the first place I would recommend starting. Even small improvements in sleep quality can have a pretty massive ripple effect on your ability to focus, plan, and execute throughout the day.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:06

Another thing this sounds really simple, but strategy number six is accountability. I meet with a friend, you might have heard of him, Dave Stachowiak, from Coaching for Leaders podcast, and we meet just about 10 minutes almost every day, by phone in the morning, we have a standing call at 9:05am to share what we're going to do that day as accountability partners for each other. But what it does is it forces us to say aloud what's important that particular day, and enhances the chances of being intentional and getting it done, and most days, getting much more done than if I hadn't done.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:43

Okay. Strategy number seven, visual reminders. For me, I'm a pretty visual person, so this is huge for me overall. Although I leverage lots of different technology, I literally write my most important items on a note card in a priority order. I carry this with me all day long. You know, here's one right here, and I make it super bright so that visually I can't ignore it. The left side is usually business focused and the right side is usually relationship focused. For example, one of the things that's on my note card today is to call Kenzie to say good night. That's my daughter. She's dog sitting at a friend's house, so she's actually not going to be home tonight. So I know that that's something that I want to do. It's on my checklist. And then also record this episode. Hey, there we go.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:36

Strategy number eight. This is going to sound a little weird, but novelty. This last strategy, when a system or routine stops working for me, which it inevitably will, I don't force myself to stick with it. I switch to something new. And for, I'll give you an example. For about a year, I used Notion to track all of my tasks. It worked great, intelligent. Now I use note cards, at some point, those are going to stop working too. And I stopped fighting against this tendency. I used to think that I just needed to force it, but now I've started embracing it. My ADH brain craves novelty and variety. So rather than beating myself up for abandoning systems, I just accept that each system has an expiration date. And when something stops being exciting or effective, I switch to whatever my new approach, whatever new approach catches my interest. A couple examples here, I tend to change where I'm working. For example, sometimes I'll work out of a local coffee shop, or I'll take walking meetings just to create extra types of variety. So finding those ways that feel different keeps my engagement compared to just trying to do the same thing over and over again. It can be super energizing for people with ADHD. Often, those people need a higher degree of variety than the average person.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:11

Okay, I want to thank Jess again for her email because it sparked this whole entire episode and this whole conversation. So your question probably helped many others who have been silently struggling with the same challenges. And also want to point out that finding a career that fits you means finding a career that fits your unique brain wiring. And by the way, many of our clients with ADHD have discovered that their challenges in one role become strengths in another. The key to finding work that aligns with how you naturally operate is looking for what's going to naturally allow you to operate and be a benefit. My hope is you can just choose one of these strategies. And by the way, if you benefited from this at all, please share it with somebody else who you think could benefit from different ideas about ADHD. And if, as always, if you're thinking of making a change in your career and you want to see how we can help or the very best way that we can support you, here's what you can do. Just pick up your phone right now and email me directly, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just send me an email, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. You can put 'Conversation' in the subject line, and I'll connect you with the right person on my team, we can figure out the very best way that we can support you and help build a plan for what's going to fit you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:27

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 18:32

Going back to the casting the net wide, I was so worried about not getting a job in time for my visa expiring, that I thought, "Oh, I need to go out there and pretty much blast as many organizations as I can in order to make sure I'm optimizing the touch points with different companies."

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:53

What if I told you that applying the fewer jobs could actually increase your chances of landing the role that you want?When a job search gets urgent, there's almost this instinctive reaction to throw everything at the wall and begin to see what sticks. We convince ourselves that applying to more jobs in more industries are going to absolutely increase our chances. It seems like a numbers game. But here's the thing, we have helped thousands of people absolutely transform their careers in the last 12 years. And what we've seen is that's not true. Even though this pattern shows up and it's a human thing to do, the more targeted that you get, the fewer jobs that you actually have to apply for, and the more likely that you're going to be able to do so in a quality way, and the more likely you're going to be able to land a role that you're actually aiming for.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:50

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it, and if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player, so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week, until next week. Adios, I'm out.

Carolyn 00:01

At that point, I was doubting everything about myself. I failed in that role. I believed that was going to be a great opportunity for me and that I was going to be able to make all these changes and implement stuff that I really believed in, that I felt strongly in, and I failed. And so what am I doing?

Introduction 00:26

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:51

When a career starts feeling like a complete misfit, the human tendency is, "Get me the heck away from this thing. I want the opposite of this." Whatever the role or the industry, we tend to want to run far away. And we see this all the time. People come to us in a panic, saying, "I have to get out of engineering." Or, "Marketing is the problem. I need a drastic change." But what we found is, more often than not, it's not about the occupation or sector of the work. It's usually much bigger than that.

Carolyn 01:25

I call myself a reluctant leader. Ended up finding myself in leadership roles and started taking on more responsibility in kind of the management side of things. I eventually found I was being carried on a wave in my career towards something I never wanted.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:45

Carolyn was a mechanical engineer. And like many high achievers, she eventually got promoted to leadership, and she really enjoyed being an engineer. Actually, she loved it at times. But when she stepped into management, everything started to fall apart. She began blaming herself, thinking she just couldn't hack it. She was riddled with self doubt, thanks to her misfit role, and ultimately decided that she wanted to leave not only management but engineering altogether. So she did. She quit. She began looking for a role anywhere but engineering, and that's when we got to meet her. As you might have guessed from the intro, Carolyn made a surprising discovery when creating her ideal career profile that led her back to engineering. So in this conversation, you're going to hear how Carolyn regained her confidence. Her management role had stripped away from her completely, and she did this by reaching out to former coworkers and focusing very much on her strengths. In fact, she regained her confidence to the point where she was boldly turning down second interviews and even job offers, recognizing that they weren't the right fit. She knew her ideal role was out there, and it turns out she was right. So Carolyn's now in a new role, in engineering, that she absolutely loves. I'm gonna let her share the full story here. Here's Carolyn discussing how she decided on engineering as her career path in college.

Carolyn 03:13

Basically in high school, or throughout my early days of schooling too, I was really good at math and science. Got put into accelerated programs and things like that. But I also really enjoyed reading. So in high school, I was kind of torn between two paths. I could have gone into journalism, which I thought I would like, and then looked into some options for engineering and the kinds of careers you could have and I would get to use the math and science I'd been really enjoying, so I decided to go that direction. It took me a while to figure out which branch of engineering I wanted to go into. I'm the first person in my family to actually go to college, so I didn't really have guidance from them. They didn't know, you know, what to tell me, where to steer me, or anything. So, I had to find my own path. And Mechanical Engineering is what resonated with me. I knew it wasn't going to be chemical or electrical. Those were not, definitely not for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:10

What did you love about mechanical?

Carolyn 04:13

You know, for me, it was almost like common sense, the kinds of problems that were presented to what was in Physics that involved the Mechanical world. I understood it a lot more naturally than Electrical Engineering and Chemical. Those still baffle me. My son is a Chemical Engineer. I don't know where he got that. Definitely outside his family. But for me, yeah, it was just really, yeah, a natural fit. I could understand the concepts of it fairly easily for me, and take them like to different levels, and really be able to connect with what I was, what the problems were, and things like that– the problems you're trying to solve. And even the problem solving process, I really enjoyed learning more about that, and that's what makes you basically an effective Engineer, is how do you look at a thing and resolve it. Which is funny because that never occurred to me in my job search until I started with your program.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:14

So that's really fascinating, and that's something that I wanted to ask you about, particularly, you know, you had this, I would say, very good set of experiences, overall, that led you towards Mechanical Engineering. And then eventually, you got to a point where you wanted to leave Engineering entirely. That was where your head space was at. So, what took place to get to that point at first? And then we can talk about how you navigate it through.

Carolyn 05:42

Okay, so I have had a long career in Mechanical Engineering. I deliberately kept my experience diverse. I didn't specialize. I didn't get, like, pigeonholed into, "I am going to focus on this aspect of Engineering", which can be really easy to do, and it's how you can sort in a company, but I wanted to keep my knowledge base broad. But as I continued further in my career, and I call myself a reluctant leader, I ended up finding myself in leadership roles and started taking on more responsibility in kind of the management side of things. I eventually found I was being carried on a wave in my career towards something I never wanted. So I eventually stepped willingly into management, a management role, and I thought it was going to work out for me because it was similar to the job I was in, but it was officially a manager role, which I was unofficially doing. So I thought it was going to be a good fit company, the size was similar, and it turned out to be really, really not for me. I was not energized by the work I was doing. I was not getting any job satisfaction. It was exhausting me every single day, to the point where the best part about it was my drive to work, so that was pretty terrible. And then I get to work and basically have to endure the day, and I'd be putting in, you know, 5-10 hour days just to try to stay ahead of all the work that there was. But that wasn't really what was exhausting. It was, as I came to find out later, I was far or too far removed from the strengths that I have, and I was not feeding any of those strengths. I was actually going way outside of them, and that's what was making me exhausted, and eventually resulted in burnout to the point where I left my job with nothing else lined up.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:40

It's really fascinating, still to this day, where, I mean, we've been doing this for 12 years at this point, and it still blows me away how quickly an otherwise great situation, or otherwise a situation that it seems relatively lined up can turn to burn out or turn to something that's very negative when you're removed from your strengths. It's, I don't know, fascinating in a little bit of a train wreck sort of way, but...

Carolyn 08:11

So yes. I couldn't stop watching it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:14

I know, right?

Carolyn 08:15

They're in front of me. And I kept trying and trying and trying to make this work. And I tried different tactics. You know, changing my mindset and my behavior to try to make this work, only to eventually realize there was literally nothing I could have done to make this work for me. And it would have, I mean, it was a good job for somebody. It just was not good for me in any way. And so I had to step away from it and try to figure out why that was.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:44

So at that point where you realized, "Okay, this is, under no circumstances, that this is going to add up to a fit." It sounds like there was a period of time there where you just came to the decision of taking a break in your career. What was going through your mind at that point in time?

Carolyn 09:04

Oh, at that point, I was doubting everything about myself. I failed in that role. I believed that was going to be a great opportunity for me and that I was going to be able to make all these changes and implement stuff that I really believed in, that I felt strongly in, and I failed. And so, "What am I doing? There's definitely something wrong here, and what can I do going forward? Because it's not this", is how I felt. I really did believe that it was me, that it wasn't the wrong fit or anything like that. I thought it was just me not being capable of doing this job, and so I felt horrible. And so as I was walking out the door, I'm like, "Yeah, this is terrible, and I don't even know what I want to do next, but it's not this, and I gotta go." And I've never done that before. I may have felt like that here and there, but I've literally never just walked out and not had something lined up already.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:04

That's a, in its entirety, a difficult place to be in. And I think I'm underrating it when I use that word choice. What kept you moving forward at that point?

Carolyn 10:20

Well, at first it was panic.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:22

Panic can be a positive thing sometimes, for sure.

Carolyn 10:26

Well, I started sending out resumes in panic because I'm like, "Oh, my God. I have nothing." And then I realized, okay, that's not true. I actually planned for this. I had some savings and to stop panicking, stop sending out those resumes, and go forward with what I wanted. And that's when I started looking for career counseling help, and I went to the internet and started looking at different organizations that could provide it, and I listened to a number of your podcasts, and I'm like, "This is great." I would go for walks because, you know, what else was I doing? I wasn't working, so I would go for walks, and I'd listen to the podcast on the walks, and I'd come home feeling great. I'm like, "I'm not alone. Other people have had this exact same thing, and they have gotten through it and into something much, much better."

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:18

But I'm thinking about your whole story as a whole here for just a minute. And it seems as though, because you came out of this last opportunity in such a turmoil where initially you were panicking, but you did eventually end up in something that was a great fit for you. What really, truly helped you or allowed you to focus on what was a fit? Do you remember any activities in particular that you did, or anything in particular that really resonated that allowed you to be able to say, "Okay. I do, in fact, want to hone in on these areas." Or, "I now realize that Engineering, I shouldn't throw out the baby with the bath water." Or, you know, tell me a little bit about what fits that category for you that you recall.

Carolyn 12:10

Okay. Definitely analyzing what my strengths are, you know, going through the exercise and filling out, I think I did multiple different assessments to determine what my strengths are, and understanding what those are made me realize, "Okay, I was not in the wrong field after all. Engineering actually does." I know. It really does, and there were times in my career, so I reflected because you basically write down all of your jobs, and what was it about that job that energized you. And that exercise really brought it home for me, that there were times in my career that I absolutely loved what I was doing, and I was energized by the type of work it was and it was satisfying. There were other reasons why I would have left the jobs, but maybe to advance in my career, get more experience. But I did not hate engineering, so it helped get me back to reality of, "Yeah, this is a job that I actually like doing." Possibly not management. It was never my dream to manage people. I did find, you know, throughout my career, this is the other thing I learned by doing that evaluation of my past jobs, I like to mentor people, not the same as managing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:28

Two different activities. Potentially completely, they can overlap, but they don't need to.

Carolyn 13:35

And they were overlapping, but I didn't realize that it was mentoring that actually brought me some happiness. Passing on this knowledge to the younger or less experienced Engineers was something that really did give me a sense of happiness, or joy, whatever you want to call it. And I've gotten compliments from the people that I have mentored that I was very effective for them. I taught them a lot. They learned a lot from me. It was something that definitely we both got something out of. But once I stepped into straight up management, that's not what I was doing. So it gave me some perspective on what are the things that really would make me happy in a job. And the other thing that I learned was the places that I worked, even though I don't consider myself a super social person, the places that I worked where we had a strong team dynamic were great. I was super happy working on an effective team. So those were the things I was going to be looking for in my next role because I was energized by teamwork, and I kind of knew that at some level, but it really drove it home for me that that was something I needed. It wasn't just nice to have.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:57

The, what you said about mentoring versus management or leadership, that's such a great example of a really important distinction that, in your case, I think either makes it or breaks it for you. Took this otherwise wonderful topical area of mechanical engineering that you have loved at different periods of time and then turned it into something that was, shall we say, less wonderful.

Carolyn 15:27

It was less wonderful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:28

Yeah. So I think what's always really fascinating for me too, is that it's not a small amount of work and reflection and thought and critical thinking that goes along with that to get to the point where you have these what seem to be like magical realizations. It doesn't just happen. So I'm curious, you know, when you think back on your experience in getting to that point, what particularly made it easier for you? Or what advice might you give to other people who are trained to get to some of those realizations? Because they're going to be different realizations for them, of course.

Carolyn 16:06

Yes, yep. And their realizations may come at different points within the whole process. And like I said, for me, it was during the evaluations of where I've been, also reaching out to past co-workers about what they thought my strengths were, which also reinforced for me that I wasn't a failure, and that people actually did enjoy working with me. And again, got something out of that relationship, our working relationship that we had.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:31

Yeah. At some point, I believe you had this realization that culture mattered significantly. In fact, it was possibly one of the largest things that mattered, aside from working your strengths and being able to... everything else that we've talked about. Can you tell me a little bit about that?

Carolyn 16:51

Well, that was actually interesting. Because when I did the Ideal Career Profile, maybe it was how I answered the questions, but it seemed like the type of work or the type, yeah, type of work was going to be what was most important. But as I talked with Amy about it, and, you know, talked about the things that really drained me at the last place I was at, definitely the culture was the biggest problem there. It wasn't, necessarily, the type of work, although it wasn't everything that would feed my strengths. You know, I was outside my strengths completely, but it was also the culture and the lack of teamwork that really made it so that I was extremely unhappy, if not depressed. Just being there every day was sucking the life out of me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:45

Literally.

Carolyn 17:46

I can laugh now, but yeah, literally, it was. It was that bad.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:49

I've been in that situation. It is not fun. Fortunately, there's a better end to the story. However, it feels terrible when you're there.

Carolyn 18:00

It really does. And I asked myself, "Do I just stick this out? So many people do. A lot of people just stay in this awful job that they hate, and they complain about it incessantly, but keep going back. Or do I get out because it's so bad that I kind of feel like I need to do it to preserve my sanity?" Because I didn't even know who I was at that point anymore. So that month I took off was to figure out, again, who I was and be able to actually function and make decisions instead of feeling like I'm constantly... it almost felt like I was under attack, you know, even though that's not the case, but that's what the work environment seemed to foster. There was hostility, and it wasn't toward me necessarily, but the fact that it was there, at this undercurrent of it, was something that I picked up on very easily. So if people are happy around me, I pick up on that. If they're really unhappy around me, I pick that up unfortunately, and I have a hard time putting it down.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:03

That's such a good realization. It really truly is. If you know that about yourself where you are, maybe more so than the average person, impacted by the negativity or the positivity or whatever it is that's around you, then from a strategic standpoint, it becomes critical to surround yourself by what's going to benefit you. That's amazing. I love that. Way to go.

Carolyn 19:29

A huge thing to learn. I mean, I always kind of knew it, but I didn't necessarily trust my gut. That was another thing that Amy and I talked about a lot, was that I do have those feelings, and I need to trust them, because they're what will help me find a situation that's going to be more healthy for me. Yep. So that was definitely part of what we were going for. So when it became apparent that the culture was really an important factor for me, getting in touch with what I felt during interviews, and not ignoring what I was seeing or feeling became really important.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:11

So the interviews. Tell me a little bit about what did you do specifically to go from, "I have this wonderful Ideal Career Profile on digital paper that generally represents what I am heading towards, what I'm trying to run towards" But taking, you know, going from there to an actual interaction, set of interactions, that are more than likely with better fit organizations can be a challenge. So what worked for you to move you into interviews that were potentially a fit?

Carolyn 20:50

Well, so I will say, one of the things that people should not be afraid of is making mistakes. So I can't say that this part of it went super smoothly for me because I was always drawn to the old way of looking for a job and basically reading a job description and saying, "Oh, I could fit into that role", instead of, "Is this the one I want to actually apply for? What is it about this company that makes me want to apply? What is it about this role that fits me?" So I had to flip flop everything I had ever done in a job search in the past. So when I was looking through, you know, different opportunities, I definitely had to stop myself from applying to some things that I would have applied to because when I really looked into it and thought about what they were advertising for, I'm like, "This is not going to work." Or looked into reviews that people had about the company. Or, yeah, basically, I usually take reviews with a grain of salt anyway, but this time, I wanted to at least look at them to see, you know, "If people left and they were unhappy, what were they unhappy about? And is it something that was, you know, maybe something that was personal to them, or did it seem like it was a cultural problem?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:15

Yeah, which would make it relevant to your situation then, because we know culture matters so much to you.

Carolyn 22:20

Exactly, yep. And even one of the places I applied to, and they brought me, I did, you know, the phone interview first, and then went in for an in person. And I think they wanted to keep pursuing me. I eventually turned, I canceled the second interview with them because I did have, when I read the job description, I'm like, "This sounds exactly like where I came from." The job itself is exactly what I was doing, and so I didn't want to apply. My sister's like, "You should just apply. It's a bigger company. It's not the same place." But I had warning signs during the phone interview. I had definite warning signs when I was interviewing there, and as Amy and I kind of debriefed about the experience, she's like, "You've got to trust your gut here." And she had some concerns with the body language that I described with at least one of the interviewers where it was going to be combative with this guy. I'm sure of it. And so I didn't get a warm fuzzy. And when I started interviewing at this company that I ended up accepting a job with, when I left that interview, I actually felt happy. I've literally never felt happy after an interview before, like, I was happy. I couldn't wait to talk to Amy about this. I'm like, "Oh my god. This is so cool. They're dynamic." The energy that they brought to this interview was like nothing I had ever experienced. And so this small company, and I didn't think I'd want a small company, I thought for sure. I needed to hide myself in a big company, instead of, you know, going to the small company where you're overly scrutinized, and whatever was going on, it might...

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:22

Well, that, in itself, is a really interesting way of how you looked at things in the past, you know, coming out in what you perceived, what also in the past what you perceived that it meant for you and what you wanted. That's a, we call that a very high level of self-awareness.

Carolyn 24:25

I didn't think it. I'd never have that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:27

Oh, look at you. See? It just takes practice, as it turns out.

Carolyn 24:31

Yep, and some encouragement because I was riddled with self-doubt. Yeah, there was just so much that I was working against. So it was having somebody help lift me up and help me realize that I can have confidence in myself and my abilities, because I've made it this far, it was incredibly helpful so that I could make a decision to not go down a path that it seemed like, I mean, that would have been where the money was. I did not take the job that would have offered more money, and they were still looking for somebody long after I had, you know, turned on their second interview and stuff, but knowing that I got myself into a better situation, someplace where I could feel that teamwork was going to be a big thing there, and it is, that was definitely a huge deal for me. Because it's not the place I would have actually probably ended up in if I were still doing things the same old way I used to.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:27

What do you think would have happened? Like if you, and maybe it's a, I don't know, maybe it's an exercise in futility. But I'm curious, if you, you know, from the point in time where you left, if you hadn't gone through the work to define what it was that you actually needed and then eventually that led to, you know, a variety of interviews, and you honing in on what being able to recognize what actually was a fit, so that you could keep going in the ones that were a potential fit, what do you think would have played out? What's your best guess? I won't hold you to it. We'll never know, I guess.

Carolyn 26:02

I definitely would have been looking for jobs in Engineering Management specifically, or Engineering still, because, to be honest, those were the two areas that I was focusing on when I was searching. But I would have looked for those, but I probably would have gone for the money and ignored what were ultimately warning signs, just these, the vibes that I was getting from the interviewers, or just the place itself, you know, because sometimes you go into a company and you can kind of feel that things are not gelling, you know, that it's struggling with something, and it's an undercurrent that you can feel. I felt it before I took the job I walked out on, but I ignored it. I would have done the same thing. I would have ignored those signs and ended up taking a job and once again, saying, "How long do I stay here before I realized that this is terrible for me?" And I would have done it out of panic. And, yeah, this was a much, much better approach. I wasn't panicked, even though we were getting to, you know, this was the plan that I had laid out, even the time frame and everything. But I didn't feel panic. I had enough money saved up where I knew I was going to be able to make it into January, but I really wanted to have something before year end. But if that hadn't happened, I would have been okay. But it turns out, this company I talked to, where they had this really cooperative and positive interaction with each other that just, I don't know, it wooed me, I guess. It was great being there, and I'm really glad that that came up and that I didn't turn it down. I'm not sure I would have applied for that job.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:53

I think that's what's really interesting to me, not just with your situation, but what we see over and over. But in your situation, what I'm hearing you say is that you had all of these different types of encouragement, whether it be from family members or the outside world, or pressures in your head, or, you know, the panic response to apply to all of these things, even though you were getting these vibes. And then even in interviews, you know, it would have been an easy thing to do to just keep going, even though you had those warning signs. And I think that's what almost everybody does, but you had already, at that point, done enough work yourself to recognize that, "Hey, I understand what these warning signs are now, and I can choose to do differently, and I understand what I'm looking for, and this is not it." But then also, have done enough work for yourself to be in a position to actually behave differently because it's easy for us to lean on our past behaviors, it's hard to do something different.

Carolyn 29:00

It really is. And it maybe would have felt comfortable to just go with what I already knew, you know, like, that one company where I had the warning signs and stuff. I could see me fitting in there. I could see how I would be able to fit in that role. And I could convince myself that, "No, it's going to be different enough from where I was" that I wasn't going to have the same experience. But I don't actually believe that. So actually following my gut and heeding the warning signs this time, I think, kind of averted another crisis that definitely would have happened. Yeah, it wasn't the right kind of company for me. Again, it would have been a good job for somebody, just not the right one for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:43

You know, what I think is always really interesting too for, not all professions experience, but especially, say, like, Engineering is a great example of this. Like your experience for so many years is to be able to, you know, take somewhat limited resources and engineer solutions in one way or another to solve problems by looking at what resources you have and what you can use and everything else, and figure out a solution that other people wouldn't be able to do. So when you go into a job search type of situation, you're looking at all of these different job descriptions or postings or anything like that, and you're like, :Yeah, I could do that. Like I could figure out how to make that work", or whatever else. So it literally goes the opposite way from everything you've done for years and years to be able to say, "Nope, we're just not going to do this. I'm not going to find a solution."

Carolyn 30:36

I think it's what keeps us in bad situations longer, too, because, "Oh, well, if I do this, I can make that work better. If I do this, it'll get better." And you keep doing that because that's what you do. You keep trying something until you find something that works. And when you're in a situation that is truly not healthy for you, you are not going to be able to make that change. It is very ingrained in the company culture itself and you can't always have influence over that. And that's what I found is even though I thought I might have had some, I really did not. It was not coming from me. So there's only so much that you can do if there's a problem that is truly insurmountable, and you have to admit at some point that, "Hey, this is actually not something I can solve." And it just doesn't feel right, but it's true, yeah. And I would have talked myself into, "Oh yeah, this isn't perfect, but I know that I can do this" just because I can solve these things.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:45

[31:42] Yeah. What I'm really curious about now too, is, I mean, you could have gone that direction, but you didn't. So what I'm curious about now is, what is life like now? And there is no perfect, but it sounds like your situation now is very different from the one you most recently left. What specifically is different for you?

Carolyn 32:08

Well, first and foremost, I absolutely love the team I'm working on. I'm not the leader of the team. There's someone else who's worked there for a long time and kind of worked his way up from the bottom. He really has a lot of people skills, and I enjoy working with him, and he leads us, but he's not like my manager, so we have this great rapport, I guess. And there's one other person. We're a very small group. So three Engineers, or three people in the Engineering group. I'm the only degree in Engineer, but that's not what matters to me. They have their own strengths that they bring to it. We call ourselves three C's Engineering, because all our first names start with C.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:47

Obviously, it was meant to be. You completed the C's.

Carolyn 32:50

The teamwork. He's very supportive. So always has their backs. Definitely is working toward improving things. So we're, you know, figuring out, "All right, what is the path we want to go on? How do we want to get there?" They are having me look at certain things that they don't really have the expertise in. So I'm a design engineer, so what is the design software that we're going to use? And they had gone through a number of things where they were trying to make that decision and they didn't feel confident in it, so I've been evaluating that, and I made a presentation to show them this is what I recommend. They're taking my input and actually listening to me. They value what I can bring to the table. So those are the kinds of things that I think helped me to be happy with what I'm doing, because it's not perfect. You know, there are some people that I know I'm going to clash with, but it's like that wherever you go. It's, you know, everybody has different priorities and what they want to achieve, and different personality types. But that's not really the predominant thing for me. This sense of teamwork and working together to actually get something done is what seems to be there for me the most, us, for this job. And I never thought I'd do this. I'm not a morning person. They work a four day work week, so I get a three day weekend every week. I kind of love that. My Fridays are for me every week.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:20

That's amazing.

Carolyn 34:21

They don't want you to work from home because they want work life balance. And so those were some of the things I was looking for, is to have more time for me. And I actually am finding that I have energy to participate in my home life where, prior to this, I came home and I was exhausted and I would just unplug and do nothing, and it was awful. So now that's not how I'm living. I'm actually enjoying my outside of work life. I'm enjoying what I'm doing at work. So I feel like I've gotten what I was looking for.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:56

That is really cool. I am really, legitimately, happy for you. You're doing my heart good.

Carolyn 35:04

Oh, thank you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:05

What advice would you give to anybody else who's in that same situation? If we go back now to your previous situation, where you were at that role, you knew it wasn't a great fit, you're trying to decide, "Do I stay? Do I go? How does that look?" It's eroding your self-confidence. You know, that's where a lot of people sometimes find themselves. What advice would you give to that person in that place?

Carolyn 35:31

Take steps to do something about it, whether it's if you want to try talking to your management team and see if you can make it better. Keep in mind, I did try that and it got better for a minute. But if you think that that's going to actually help your situation, give that a try, but don't stay in it if you're miserable. Because life is way too short to feed that much of your energy into something that basically is never going to pay off for you. And it's not about money, it's more about your well being and how you're feeling, and do you have enough energy left to actually enjoy your time outside of work? If you don't, don't stay there. For the love of God, don't stay there. Take care of yourself.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:22

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like. And the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:15

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:19

You know that feeling when you're staring at your computer and you've got this really important thing you need to do, maybe you even know exactly what you need to do, but for some reason, you just can't start? Or maybe you start, and then 30 seconds later, you're researching the history of paper clips or reorganizing your desk for the third time this week. Yeah, that's ADHD for you. And if you've had similar experiences, this episode is definitely for you. To be clear, I'm not a doctor and I'm definitely not diagnosing you, but we made it for you. So here's the thing that a lot of people don't understand about ADHD. Society has created all of these boxes, these systems that we're supposed to fit into– show up at nine, focus for eight hours, remember every detail from that meeting last Tuesday. And when you're wired differently, those boxes can feel impossible. But I want to talk about something that doesn't get mentioned enough. Having ADHD can be a pretty massive advantage, too.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:21

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it, and if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player, so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week, until next week. Adios, I'm out.

Introduction 00:05

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does, and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:30

When you first consider a career change, it's impossible to predict all the obstacles that could get in your way. But there's one obstacle that I am 100% sure without a doubt that it will be there. What is that obstacle? Well, drum roll, please. It turns out it's you. Yep. The biggest obstacle standing in the way of your ideal career is you– your indecision, your doubts, your overthinking, your tendencies, your procrastination, your comfort zone, all of it. It's keeping you from what will likely be the best decisions for your career and your life. All you have to do is just, you know, get out of your own way.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:14

That might be much easier said than done. Of course. You might be like, "Scott, how do I know if a career change will be the right move for my career?" We talked to people who had already done the work to make an intentional career change and make a career move. And all of these people, we asked the same question. That question, "What advice do you have for someone who's thinking about making an intentional career change?" I've actually now asked this question to well over a thousand people. Many of whom have worked with us to change careers, and we use all of that data to write our book, podcast episodes, you name it. But since we couldn't fit those 1000 people into this podcast episode, here's what we did. We chose seven pieces of advice from clients of ours. These are people that are just like you. They were unhappy or bored or had a great situation but felt like they were meant for more, or they had health issues that were linked to their career, any number of reasons that they were considering change. By the way, some of these people were in great situations, and it just wasn't the right fit, or they had outgrown it, and other people were in pretty terrible situations. But the commonality here is they all found work that they felt was meaningful, and all of them made a change, and they all started with deciding to take action towards finding work that fit them. Here's what's interesting about their advice, it's all possible. Everything they talk about is realistic. None of them, zero of them, waved a magic wand and poof, their ideal career appeared, and they didn't do anything that seemed unattainable. I think the really cool thing is, the wonderful thing, is that you can make the same change. You just have to get out of your own way. And that's exactly what Cheri did. She was a software product analyst for 12 years, and she really enjoyed what she did, but when her family relocated, she had to find a new job, and she realized almost immediately in that new role it was just absolutely not a good fit for her. So she searched on her own for almost a year, and she started feeling pretty lost and doubting herself, but then she had a breakthrough when she learned about her strengths and defined her must haves and what we call an ideal career profile. Now, Cheri did a really fantastic job of figuring out what she wanted and then finding organizations and roles that fit her. Ultimately, she landed a pretty wonderful job that she loves, and it was such a great fit that she got selected for a promotion after less than a year. We've had her on the podcast three separate times, and her advice has never changed. Here's what she had to say the most recent time she was on.

Cheri 03:56

My advice is the same as it was when I first did this. Know what you're running towards, and make sure you're running towards something and not away. That was advice that was given to me years ago by a friend, and it has stuck with me, and it's been such a driving factor in a lot of the things that I've done. Basically, have a goal. Know what direction you're headed because, otherwise, you're just driving around aimlessly, going nowhere.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:23

Here's what's interesting. The first time Cheri was on the podcast, she talked about how this advice specifically helped her.

Cheri 04:29

Knowing what I'm working for, knowing what my goal is, I think, has been huge. Because there was a job opportunity that came up probably shortly after I started this, and I had done my ideal career profile. I knew what I wanted to do and what I was working towards, and this opportunity came up, and as much as I wanted to say yes, because I wanted out of my current situation, that would have been me running away because it was not in line with what I wanted to do going forward. So I think making sure you know what you're running for.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:00

It's easy to get caught in the mindset of escaping your current situation. But as Cheri learned, true transformation comes from being intentional about what you want next, not just what you're trying to leave behind. For Cheri, focusing on what she was running towards gave her the clarity she needed to make a move that she also felt confident about, but what if you don't even know what's out there? That's exactly what Caity faced. By the way, Caity was a successful VP of marketing in the tech world, and her career was going great, but she began to realize she was no longer excited by her work, and she pretty well knew she needed to change. So she took the time to explore her strengths, her passions, what she was excited about, and she really dug into the questions of what's next and what could be extraordinary. Eventually, her self-discovery, combined with extensive research, led her to discover change management, which this is an area that she literally did not know existed, and ultimately she realized that this could be the perfect match for her. Here's the advice she had for you.

Caity 06:11

I would say that people should be aware that there could be roles out there that they don't know exist and that are going to maybe take some work to figure out what they are. I know a big part of this program is actually custom roles being designed for people. It has actually, that has happened before as well. But I would say also is to really take a hard look about what you like in your current role, and know that there's probably an opportunity to do just the things you like and not the things you don't, and that does exist. For me, I thought it was all black or white with product marketing. It was either I was going to be leaving all these types of projects on the table and having to do something totally new, whereas I'm going into a field where there's actually a fair bit of overlap with some of the stuff I was doing that I enjoyed doing, without the stuff I don't want to be doing, you know, kind of some of that more external marketing execution type work. So I think it's important to also really look at somebody's field or their job and say, "Is there things you want to take with you?" And know that it's possible to take some of those things with you, but still find something you like doing. But yeah, that was the kind of biggest learning moment for me, was that was possible.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:19

Caity's experience proves that a fulfilling career change isn't about starting completely over. So many people believe it has to be that. That's a question we get constantly, or a fear that people have that they're gonna have to start over. But instead, it's about finding ways to bring what you love or your past experiences along with you into a new role that excites you. But what if the career move you thought was the right one can turns out to be a complete mismatch? This is exactly what happened to Edna. Edna, by the way, is a scientist. She spent 19 years working in consumer packaged goods for the same company, and it was great for her, but eventually, she decided she wanted to try something new, and she found a new role, new job, with the company in the same industry. It didn't take long for her to realize the new organization was not a great match. In fact, it was a complete mismatch as far as values and culture. So she quit. And while she knew that she could quickly find another job if she needed to, she decided to take the time and make sure this next move was intentional. She ultimately landed a new role as a scientist in pharmaceutical research and development, a completely new industry she had never considered. So after making this move, what advice would she give?

Edna 08:39

So I tell them to do what I did, in a sense, is you need help. We need to make sure you try to get someone who has experience in providing guidance to help you through it. Two, I think for me, was to ensure that your network and or the people who surround you are supported. Because the last thing, that's another thing that happened during that ambiguous time, is I happen to mention my decision to step away to someone who didn't understand what I've done, and some kind of bunch of questions of why we do that. So that didn't help. I was already in that period of ambiguity, and I realized that, you know, up till that point, I surrounded myself with people who are 100% supported. And even if they were like, "Okay, now, we get you. We're with you. We're with you, it's challenging, but we're with you." So, because the last thing you need is people who will make you question yourself on this journey that is challenging in and of itself. So lean in, get someone to help, make sure you have the support and that dedicate the time to do the work and trust. Trust the process. Trust the process. Be when it feels like, you know, you have questioning why you do it, trust the process. In my case, just trusting the process. Trust the process. It worked for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:09

Career change isn't something you have to do alone. And we found that if you don't try and go it alone, you get results a lot faster. Having support, a plan, like Edna talked about, it makes such a massive difference, but so does tapping into the connections that you've already built. And that's exactly what Brian discovered when he faced an unexpected career shift. Okay, Brian's career, he had spent most of it leading sales and marketing teams, most recently as a VP of Business Development. He'd always prioritize working for companies that align with his values, making intentional career pivots along every step of the way, and at some point, he started to experience a change. He realized that culture was no longer aligned with his values, and he was unexpectedly looped into a round of layoffs. This was literally the first time in his life where he felt like he'd lost control of his career. However, aligning his career search with his core values and tapping into the power of his network helped him regain control. Here's what Brian discovered about how relationships played a crucial role in landing his ideal opportunity and reigniting his excitement about his career.

Brian 11:22

I think for me, getting me through this was activating my network and really just like reaching out to people. I talked to people that I hadn't talked to in years. And I think some of it is we just get busy with our day to day lives and the people that are around us immediately, and now that so it's like, I'm gonna stay real. I'm staying in touch with some of those people that all sudden it's just like, you just reach out to, and it's amazing as you reach out to some of these people that you haven't talked to in years, how fast you can just, like, pick up, like, no time had ever gone by at all. You wouldn't think that it's like, "Oh, I haven't talked to you in five years." Also, it was like, "Oh, what happened with so and so?" That's why it just, like, all just picks right back up almost where it left off. And so I think activating the network of people, whether it's via LinkedIn, but just starting to reach out to people. And one of the things that was a pleasant, I don't know, surprise, is the right word. It was more of a comfort, I think, surprised as the kind of a connotation to it. For me, it was a pleasant comfort of how many people just want to help and be there to support, and it's like, yeah, man, I feel it's just like, "What about this? Hey, I can call so and so." And just it was amazing to me. It's just like, and I think that for a lot of folks, I think there would be a tendency to not reach out. And, like, I haven't talked to him in five years. I don't want to be a burden. And, yeah, no, for me, it was... And there was some of this with, I think in my first session with Ben that we talked about, maybe a second, was it's going to be the network to activate the network, you know. And I've been blessed like in the industry, I've worked with hundreds and hundreds of people, and so my network is pretty expansive. I know there's other people that don't have that situation, but it's kind of like that Kevin Bacon, six degrees of separation sort of thing, like activate and find out who they know and, you know, and just you got to continue to work it. And I know the framework with HTYC, you guys, have a lot of that sort of thing, the underpinnings of that to help with it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:28

Okay, people will say all the time, "Your network is one of the most powerful tools in career change." But I think reframing it in the way that people are out there, especially with relationships that you already have, they want to help, but you have to be willing to reach out and ask for the help. And more importantly, like Brian, you have to be able to ask in the right way. I do think this is a really powerful example from the sales and marketing world. But what about somebody who was laid off in tech? That's exactly what happened to Jorge. He spent over 20 years in the tech space. When he was surprisingly let go from his organization, similar to Brian, he realized that he needed to reevaluate his career, his identity, and what direction he was going. And also, like Brian, for the first time in his life, he wasn't sure if he wanted to continue working in the same situation. For him, it was the same industry. So, he conducted multiple experiments to pinpoint the path that was right for him. Oh, and by the way, he did such a great job figuring out what would fit him best that he ended up with not one but multiple job offers. And ultimately, he had to figure out which was going to serve the life that he was trying to build the best, because they all seemed like a fit. That is another challenge all in itself. Here's his advice on making decisions during your career change.

Jorge 14:56

There has to be some inner values, or core values, that serve as a core that you go back to. Without that, every single decision in your lives gets complex and complex. And I think that reviewing those core values, reviewing that purpose that you have, helps you to assess the decisions and make those decisions, assess the opportunities and make the decisions. But even in that case, you may not make the right decision, and that's okay because what you have is a core value. So open to reevaluate your own purpose and core values, but also to accept that whatever expectations you may have when you make the decision may change, and those changes may not be bad. It's just another opportunity to grow and to continue that experimentation. You need to have a curious mind with yourself. And that is not always something that comes across as something you need to do. Most people tell you to be curious about the world, but few people tell you to be curious about yourself. So I think that if anything is, be curious about yourself, be curious about what you want, and can and excel and will excel to give to the world, because every single one of us have great potential. So if anything, just be curious about yourself and be willing to explore and be willing to discover that potential through that experimentation that you so great described as the next step, just continue experimenting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:49

Turns out this stuff isn't magic. It is difficult, though. The better you know yourself, your values, what you want, the easier it's going to be to navigate uncertainty and make much more aligned, confident decisions in your career change but also in your life beyond this next change. Okay, so these are two really great examples of turning your career around after layoffs and going after something that is much more intentional that fits you. But what about if you haven't been laid off and you're actually in a really great position, maybe even a position where you feel like you should just be grateful for where you are because others would kill to have this type of role. But deep down, you know, it's not a great fit for you. What then? Well, that's where we get to meet Morgan. Morgan had spent most of her career in HR, following the path that she had started back in grad school while studying Organizational Psychology. But even as early as her internships, she had this nagging feeling that something about the path wasn't quite right. Fast forward to 2023 ,and Morgan was in deep burnout. She was in the midst of that stuck feeling, and she knew the role that she was in was absolutely not working, but the fear of making the wrong move and regretting leaving a good job kept her from taking action. If we fast forward, Morgan ended up getting a role that she loves, that excites her, where she gets to use her strengths every day, but here's what she had to say about someone who feels stuck.

Morgan 18:20

I think it, and it is hard to come to this realization, but it's okay to say no to things. I think, especially with high achievers, which, hello, that's me. Especially with high achievers, hello, I'm high achieving. What's your name? Especially with high achievers, it's so easy to be a yes person. Because we have this assumption that if we say no, it means we're not driven, we're not motivated. But really, I mean, you just kind of have to shift the mindset of it's okay to say no, because it just means that you're looking to further align yourself with being able to use your strengths in a more meaningful way, show up authentically. Those are all super important things. And yeah, it's okay to say no. So if you're stuck in an area that you don't want to be in, and you know that you've got this inkling of a feeling it's not the right fit, and you get a promotion, I think it might be a really great idea to say, "Hey, I really appreciate this. I'd love to think about it for a little bit." And then deep dive into what do you want your life to look like, how do you want to show up at work? And just check that criteria out and see if it's going to align well.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:38

You've probably heard it on this podcast before, but I think it's worth repeating. Career fulfillment isn't about climbing the ladder. It's not about just fixing something that isn't going very well for you. Instead, it's about making continuous, intentional choices that align with your strengths, your values, the life that you're trying to build. And if you're feeling unfulfilled in your role, start by saying 'no' to the things that you can. Use that space to step back and reflect what is missing, what is working, what's not. What do you want to carry forward with you into your next opportunity? What needs to change? Figuring those pieces out are the first step toward building a career that truly fits you. Morgan's story is proof of that. When she started saying 'no' to what didn't fit, helped her make the space in her life for what actually did. And by the way, she's not alone. You've just heard advice from people who've been through many career changes themselves. These are real people. They've been there. They've done that. They've got the intentional career change t-shirt. They took the steps to identify and land opportunities that they're absolutely enamored with that match their strengths and are really what they want in their lives. And if that's where you're at too, and you're ready to start taking those steps, that's awesome. We'd love to support you and figure out any way that we can help. So here's what I would suggest, take the next five seconds, pause this episode, and open up your email app, send me a message. My personal email address is Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And by the way, when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team, and you can have an informal conversation with them, and we can help figure out the very best way that we can support you in making your career change happen. So send me an email right now, put 'Conversation' in the subject line. I can't wait to hear from you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:32

Okay, here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week, right here on Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 8 21:39

At that point, I was doubting everything about myself. I failed in that role. I believed that was going to be a great opportunity for me and that I was going to be able to make all these changes and implement stuff that I really believed in, that I felt strongly in, and I failed. And so what am I doing?

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:59

When a career starts feeling like a complete misfit, the human tendency is, "Get me the heck away from this thing. I want the opposite of this." Whatever the role or the industry, we tend to want to run far away. And we see this all the time. People come to us in a panic, saying, "I have to get out of engineering." Or, "Marketing is the problem. I need a drastic change." But what we found is, more often than not, it's not about the occupation or sector of the work. It's usually much bigger than that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:34

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it, and if you haven't already, click subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week, until next week. Adios, I'm out.