Vicky Meng 00:01

When I finally hit that moment of realization, everything just clicked. So I think what surprised me was how fast it could happen when you finally get everything together.

Introduction 00:19

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stopped doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:44

What if you could know for a fact that you would find more meaningful work by attempting a career change? Would you take that leap? Career change isn't easy. And the journey is never a straight line, never. It can take quite a while to get more meaningful work– a lot longer than many people expect. And so often people quit working on a career change when they hit the unavoidable roadblocks and those low points. It's so much harder than almost everyone expects, at least if your goal is meaningful, well paid work. But here's the thing, I have yet to meet anyone who has made it to the other side and doesn't absolutely think that it was all worth it.

Vicky Meng 01:25

When I talk to people, I feel like I have so much to offer but because when they listen to my direct experiences, they don't get excited about me as much because they just feel, like, that I have been in the wrong environment, I won't fit in with their environment.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:46

That's Vicky Meng. Vicky had worked in accounting since graduating college, but started to feel stuck when she realized there were no more opportunities for growth at her organization. This spurred her to start working hard to define what she really wanted out of a career and to take action to find a new job. In the middle of her career change journey, she received a pretty great offer that checked a lot of boxes. But ultimately, she turned it down because it wasn't exactly what she was looking for. Okay, so this part felt really hard. And it also caused her to start feeling like she was losing traction, and that eventually, when other things weren't working, it led to a low point in her career change journey. Spoiler alert. After a year of hard work and dedication to her career change, Vicky ultimately made it to her ideal career. I want you to listen to how Vicky talks about and specifically what helped when she was persevering through multiple low points, not just one, not just two, but multiple low points during this 12 month long career change, and how she calls out those pivotal moments during the process, like learning how to present her existing experiences in a way that would allow her to move into a role that she didn't have lots of experience in. Okay, so fun fact too, Vicky's story is featured in chapter 17 of the Happen To Your Career book. You can actually hear her telling it in her own words on the audiobook version available on Audible or Amazon. But back to the interview at hand. Here's Vicky talking about her initial decision to make a career change.

Vicky Meng 03:30

Yeah, so I guess I should say that I started in corporate accounting because my education background is in accounting and I actually went straight up accounting for Bachelors, for Masters and I got my CPA. So supposedly, I should have followed my peers path in going through either the public accounting route, or I would just stay within the corporate accounting route. But to be honest with you, accounting, even though I did so much education in that field, has never really felt like the field for me. It was more of a family culture background influence. But what was sad about it was that I knew accounting wasn't for me, at the same time, I had no other passion. I consider myself a boring person. Because you know how a lot of other people probably say, "Oh, you know, I love acting" or "I love painting." "I love photography." I just never had one of those passions. So I just followed what my family's advice was, and what seemed to be the most realistically best choice. That's what I did and it did help me to get up with my own feet in the beginning right after college. You know, all companies need accountants and I could find a job and I was able to find a good company that sponsor me through the emigration process, in which, plays a monumental part of my life right now. That is why I can still go on to pursue my further dreams in this career. But yeah, I just didn't know if it's not accounting then, what could it be. I did transition into the finance department with my previous employer working in the Treasury Department. And I did not know what that was about at all. But what was good about it is that the organization's pretty small, so I was able to transition to different departments. And at the same time, I was able to dive deep in each of those areas. Not only dive deep, but also gain a very clear big picture of how each area plays into the whole corporate finance and accounting structure and how each department helps to make the final decision. So I did Treasury for about two years. And then I transitioned to financial analysis, which is another department under the corporate finance umbrella. And I did that for another two years. So that makes up five years in total, but I was literally doing everything that the company needed– accounting and finance wise. And in the end, I just rose up to this, like Strategic Finance Advisor for the executive team, because I've worked with different departments. And I know how different parts integrate with each other. So whether it's tax related, whether it's finance projections, whether it's accounting recordings, whether it's cash movements, I was able to come up with a good strategy that's customized to that organization's specifically. So that's where I was most valued at. And I actually enjoyed being the strategic partner in that way.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:59

Yeah. What did you enjoy about that? I'm curious.

Vicky Meng 07:02

I think I really liked the one-on-one interactions that I often had with each executive team member. The CFO came to me for a specific project. And I felt like I was helping him directly. And I was overseeing this project, or starting a project on my own and overseeing it until the end and actually seeing the results happening. And I could see the impact that is making on the organization. I really liked that aspect. And one of the things that I realized is that I actually enjoy working in small team environments, I don't like to be one of the members of a large corporate accounting team and just handle maybe one facility, month-end closing repeatedly every month. What I like about it is a role with various projects that could come up, and it's very fast paced, and you have to integrate different areas of knowledge. That's what I really liked about it, it's not just solely about accounting, it's not just solely about finance, it's not just about tax, you have to integrate everything together in order to find the best solution.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:21

Well, it sounds like it in some ways, it is the creative application of those different experiences and knowledge sets. And then also, it sounds like you have to have that particular type of variety in there in order to make it rewarding for you. Is that fair to say?

Vicky Meng 08:39

Yeah, so one of the strengths that came out in my StrengthsFinder assessment, besides this one on one helping part, was the factor input. So I'm a person who really likes to do research, who really likes to know about different areas. I'd like to get that input. Even sometimes when I don't see where this input could actually help me in this project, maybe it won't ever help me, but I still like to collect that information. I still like to understand it. And I feel like someday, I'm sure, it'll come to you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:20

Well, so I think what's really interesting about that, to me, is, I know the end of the story here too. And I know that eventually you decided to transition. And I also know that later on, much later, when you were in the midst of your transition, that inclination to research really helped you be able to make that transition. However, what were some of the final events that made you say, "You know what, I have to transition. I have to transition away from this company. Away from the roles that I'm currently in." What caused you to make that decision?

Vicky Meng 09:57

I think the main factor there was that I just couldn't see myself grow anymore in my own organization. As I mentioned that I've already worked in various departments, I'm already directly helping the executive team. I've definitely made contributions. And I could see those contributions or new contribution areas where I could help with but when they're coming, it's not for sure. The development stage of my old company is also a... they weren't exactly looking for expansion or anything. So I just knew that I wanted to, although it was very nice to be the strategic partner, but I just feel like I have not yet built up a very solid foundation for my career where, you know, I could say, "This is the area that I've been working on for so long. And I know every detail about it, I could apply it to any corporate skill." I don't have that skill set or that career path that I could rely on and say "That is what I do." I was sort of like a generalist, which is a very good thing to be. But still, I felt like I needed some specific career track to depend on. So that's when I really looked into a program that could help me figure out, so where is the specific, what exactly is the specific track that I could put all my energy towards that area for the next decade?

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:39

Interesting. So it sounds like you have outgrown the company?

Vicky Meng 11:44

Yes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:44

In terms of what you wanted, it was no longer what they were able to provide in that same way as related to your growth. And then it sounds like you came to that conclusion. And then at some point, it must have asked the question, well, what's next then? How do I find that type of next step? What happened from there?

Vicky Meng 12:08

So my upbringing tells me that you have to depend on yourself all the time, especially when you encounter a difficulty, you should, you know, work hard, as hard as you can, make yourself go crazy, and you'll find a way to navigate through the crisis. But for me, I was willing to work hard, but I didn't know where or how to put that energy. So I went out to different events, I started going to these recruiting events from the university that I attended, and all these like career related events around the city. And that's when I first encountered my first career coach, a person who has worked in the public accounting industry, because at that time, I was still sort of exploring the idea, maybe I could still go with public accounting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:09

Yeah.

Vicky Meng 13:09

So I worked with her on a monthly basis for about a year. And that was kind of like me testing the water with this coaching idea. And I realized that talking with her every month was a happy moment for me. Because I was so unhappy with my job on a day to day basis that talking with her, even if it's just for one hour each month, felt like a way out, like I could actually feel, like, make me feel hopeful. Like I could actually make this happen. Someone out there is dragging me out of this very bad situation. But I also realized at the end of, probably a year into working with her that once per month wasn't enough for me. I make progress little by little while working with her. I did reach out to a couple of companies in the public accounting sector, and tried to explore the ideas of still sticking with accounting. It didn't work out very well. I still didn't feel like that was the way to go. But I did get myself on track in terms of interviewing even and saying no, or crossing out some of the possibilities on the list.

Vicky Meng 14:32

What made you feel like accounting was not for you? I think it's awesome that you were exploring and trying to figure out "Hey, is this, in fact, right for me?" But after doing a bit of that exploration and having some of that reach out, what caused you to say "You know what, this most definitely, isn't it?"

Vicky Meng 14:53

That's a good question. I am an ENFJ. And I think a lot of times for me, if the feeling isn't right, it's just, it's not right. Well I interviewed for accounting consulting with a really great firm, and I got the offer, the team was great. Like I could see myself thrive in that team environment. But when I think about doing the type of work that they do, and helping the type of clients that they were helping, because we're specifically targeting, like law firms, law firms where they're all of their clients, I don't see myself very excited about that industry. And I can definitely do the work, but I just don't want to advise on "This is how you do your books. This is how you should debit this, credit that," It didn't very excite me at all when I think about the details of that job on a day to day basis.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:56

Yeah. And it doesn't really seem to have that same type of variety that you were talking about earlier on. It's not this, I mean, certainly you can get variety in accounting, but it doesn't seem like the combination of all of the different experiences and the gathering of the different experiences and being able to use them in a way that, like, you were talking about earlier. It seems the opposite of that in some ways.

Vicky Meng 16:21

Yeah. I mean accounting is definitely something that happens, it's often at the month-end, right? All the activities have already happened, they became reality, you just find a way to summarize and record them in the right way. But I think what I really wanted was, I want to be a part of the action, you know, day to day basis, I want to see that happen, that the decision that I'm making right now is going to affect the company today, or this week. And if it's a bad decision, then oh my gosh, it's a lot of pressure. But still, that fast paced feeling, that's the kind of impact that I want to have.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:01

Well, that's super interesting, too because I think that there's a lot of patterns here for you, as well, that I didn't even know about. And what is really interesting to me about what you said is that accounting is very past focused.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:15

And even as you were talking about your interaction with that first career coach long before we ever met you and everything too, what excited you was about the possibilities in the future. And everything that you've articulated so far, has been about, in some ways that future focused or that proactive focus or being a part like, you said being a part of it versus just like recording it. And I know that's a drastic oversimplification and not meaning to undermine anything that accounting does. Because accounting is a great field. However, it's a different focus entirely. And as you started to get into this change, because you had decided, "Okay, I need to make a more drastic change than what I was thinking" more drastic than just going and working with another organization with accounting. And as you started to get into it, what surprised you in going through this type of career change process, because what you have done, and I'll just fast forward to the end for just a second, you were able to, not only make a pretty sizable change, but also you did a new organization and new industry, if I understand correctly, too. And what surprised you as you were going through this process over the last 10 months here?

Vicky Meng 17:14

Yes.

Vicky Meng 18:34

I don't think actually I was surprised by this process. I kind of expected how unstructured it's going to be. And that's why I really held on to the idea of a structure in place and knowing where I'm at. Because I know this career change is not like class. There's no syllabus. You can't follow a timeline. It's so different. It could change at any moment. I came with that expectation. But knowing that, that's why I really needed someone to continuously motivate me and push me and let me know where I'm at. Because if not, then I'll be just doing whatever. It'll all be very scattered. But I think what was scary was from February to August, I don't think I was making any progress.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:28

Tell me about that. What made it feel like you're making no progress?

Vicky Meng 19:31

Because before August, I was following the structure. I was doing the modules, I was reaching out. But the frequency of me having a conversation was probably only two per month. Two to five per month, it kind of varies. And to begin with, because I was so scared to reach out to strangers, a lot of those conversations started with people that I kind of knew before. And when August hit, July hit, I'm like, "This is not going anywhere." I definitely doubted myself and doubted even this decision many, many times. And that's, and I was still like I, even though I followed the syllabus, but I was still unable to define what my ambition was up to that point up to August. I tried treasury, I tried financial analysis, and they were still both on my list. And I still felt like, "Oh, I could go either way." And I talked to some of the large organizations or tech companies in the Bay Area, and it was just so competitive too. But I think more importantly, it's just because of that industry and with those companies, they're so popular right now that they never block applicants. So even though some of the people that I talked to in there, there were managers, and they looked at my resume, and they say, "Oh, your resume is amazing," but because I don't have the direct industry experience, and the direct working experience, I guess, on that corporate skill, even if they submit my resume into the system, and they helped me submit on sort of like a referral, it's still very difficult to be recognized by the hiring manager, because there were just too many people applying. And I felt like I could try harder, I could network even more within that organization just to find, you know, at least one opening or one person who was willing to bet on me. But at the same time, I was like, "I don't feel like doing that with this organization." Like, they're so great. They're so popular. And it's definitely I thought that I wanted to move out to the Bay Area. And I thought that's the whole point of me participating in Happen To Your Career is to get me up there. But I don't see myself working so hard for any of the organizations out there just because I don't feel the passion and myself towards what they do. And that kind of hit me in the end, and this is like fast forwarding to, you know, after my second little point already. That's when I finally realized that, "Okay, maybe this whole idea of moving to the Bay Area wasn't right to begin with." And I think that surprised me, I guess in the end, because I never expected myself to stay in LA. But when I finally hit that moment of realization, everything clicks so fast afterwards, because literally the next week, I reached out to the manager of my new organization, and the location organization is perfect, and the role is perfect. And this manager, he recognizes my potential fully, at least in the way that I want people to recognize me. And I interviewed and then I signed the offer. It was literally like two weeks after I realized that everything just clicked. So I think what surprised me was how fast it could happen when you finally get everything together.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:13

I think that's so interesting, especially since you said you are on Myers Briggs, which you are talking about– your Myers Briggs results, which you said you were an ENFJ. Okay. So that means that for people who may not have taken Myers Briggs Type Indicator that you rely heavily on feeling and if it feels right. And this sounds insane, but we see it again and again and again and again. And you can go listen to hundreds and hundreds of episodes. Once people start to get it to where it is more authentic to them, the decision and the route that they're taking is more authentic to them, it clicks so quickly after that. It's not always two weeks like that's relatively quick as far as things go. However, it starts to click so much quicker once you get those pieces right. And as crazy as it seems, Vicky, I think what you went through, and going through and doing some of the work and the identification and everything that came along with all the hard pieces along with it almost had to happen in some ways to get it to finally click. And that way, you could start really moving forward in the way that you want to. What was that like? Why do you think it was so hard to come to that conclusion for you and make the change and say, "You know what, I don't even really want to, like, I've been working hard on this. I don't even really want to go this stretch."?

Vicky Meng 24:45

Yeah. That's very interesting. I mean, it's so liberating right now. I know you can't tell, you know, just from looking at me but in my heart, ever since that moment, a realization happened, I felt so liberated like, for the first time in my whole life, because I guess for the previous 27 years, I've always felt like that I needed to live up to other people's expectations. And usually it was my parents, but then it became my peers. So going on to the Bay Area, definitely was me trying to live out my ambition in the way that satisfies my ego. To put it simply, I wanted to be admired by my peers, I wanted to be admired by my family members saying, "Wow, you know, she made such a drastic change. She's working with one of the big tech companies in the Bay Area, she's getting paid a lot." That's how people define success for a lot of people that I know. And it's just the hype around that area. And that area, that sort of made me feel like oh, you know, if I want to be the best, which I always want to be in my, I'm very competitive in nature, then I should get in there, get into the game, and be the best in that area, beat everyone else. I think that's why I've always thought that that's the place to go. But there is not Vicky at all, Los Angeles is definitely more Vicky. And that's why like realizing that right now, I just feel happy from the bottom of my heart, because it's not about how famous my new organization is, it's about how much I am aligned to what this organization does, and how excited I am to work with my new manager and thinking about the contributions that I can make to the team. And it's also about the industry that this company is in. It's also an industry that I deeply care about, like on the weekend, I'll read about this industry, just because I'm interested in it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:08

The switch that happens once you're focused, not on other people's expectations, or even expectations of other people's expectations, but then you focus more on what is true for you. And when you switch that focus, not only does it feel different in ways that are hard to describe, and I think you've done a fantastic job of describing what that is like for you. But it is also, it puts you in a place where you can contribute to the world and organization and family members and friends, it puts you in a place where you can contribute completely differently. And that's something that's really difficult to be able to explain on a podcast or in a book or anything else to describe the types of feelings that happen after you make that switch that you were talking about. And I remember, not that long ago, I think it was about a year ago, I was talking to a guy who was in his 70s. And he had found us through Google and ended up on a phone call with him. And he was telling me about, he had gone through all 70 plus years focused on other people's expectations. So I think it's so cool that you have done that far, far earlier than 70. That's pretty amazing. Let me ask you two other questions I really badly wanted to ask you about. One, I remember a point in time, where I guess it wasn't that long ago, it probably was back in August where you were describing, you know, really struggling and moving through a few of these pieces where you and I got on the phone. And we were chatting about a couple of different things that weren't working and how to make them work differently. And the thing that I wanted to ask you about that is, what were some of the things that as you're going through the process works particularly well for you. Tell me about that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:01

So yeah, I remember that call. And I definitely feel like that call you taught me how to liberate myself also, because…

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:09

Oh, interesting.

Vicky Meng 29:10

Yes. You taught me how to just be myself, and be honest about my experiences. And that's the only way where you could find your own way, your own path. Because I was so worried and sort of just complaining to you that there's such a huge gap between where I am and where I want to be, and my current organization is small and what it does is, in finance is different than what I want to doing in finance in the next step of my career. And when I talk to people, I feel like I have so much to offer but because when they listen to my direct experiences they don't get excited about me as much because they just feel, like, that I have been in the wrong environment, I won't fit in with their environment. And you told me, you know, why don't you just tell them exactly what you've done even though my own organization did not have a ton of structure, which sounds like a bad thing. But in reality, because it was losing structure, I got to work on projects that touched on different areas of corporate finance and accounting all the time. And that is actually the biggest value I have. Because not a lot of people understand the impacts of so many areas in an organization. And I do. And having that background information, and then try to dive deep in a certain area makes you go deeper easily. Because you just know, you know what you're doing. And you know what role you are in the whole grand scheme of things, and you won't, well, hopefully, you'll make fewer mistakes. And so that's exactly what I did. And when I was talking to the manager of my new company, I told him that, you know, I was able to, I was constantly exposed to treasury, even though I wasn't really working as a treasury analyst at my current company. But that's also, you know, the best thing that happened to me because I was able to do a lot of cross functional work, and I understand how everything plays into each other's role.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:41

That is so cool. I didn't actually realize that that helped in that way. But that also makes me happy. And I really think that that is truly one of the best, I mean it really is, like we've talked about threads of that through our entire conversation just in the last 40 minutes or so here. Because it was the thing that was the most fun for you being able to have exposure to all these areas and give advice on all these areas. And being able to see the impact from having exposure to all these areas and work with other people in the organization. And then on top of that, it's also your biggest value when you started to harness that and really take ownership over that, that is such a value. That's so cool, Vicky. Oh, go ahead.

Vicky Meng 32:30

Oh, I just want to say that, I think before I just felt so ashamed of my experience.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:38

In what way?

Vicky Meng 32:39

In the like, objective way. Because how people look down or not look down, but people when they see an organization that's small, that's less structured, they don't necessarily associate a very competent employee with that image. But it just happened, for me, that I feel like I'm a pretty competent employee. But I was working in that kind of environment. And I felt so ashamed to showcase or go out there and tell everyone, you know, "This is the company that I'm working for." But at the same time, I really want it to be recognized. And I think I can do a great job if I were put into a different environment, but I just needed someone to recognize me first. And after having that conversation with you, it was liberating, because I stopped being ashamed of my experiences. And what I did, I just went out there and told people what I did and tell them why I think I was so valuable. And I could still add a lot of value to their organization if they give me a chance.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:57

So much of these types of big transitions are getting past the head games that we play with ourselves, in many different ways. And it almost makes the tactical like job change, career change type pieces. Almost. They're not easy in comparison. I don't want to give people any indication that they're easy but easier by far in comparison, compared to moving through all of those pieces. Like you're talking about, like the shame that went with how you viewed your past experience, which was a great experience, was wonderful experience and it's who, you know, who you are and what you bring to the table. That is really cool. What advice would you give someone else who's in that similar situation here?

Vicky Meng 34:47

Yeah. So I think my advice would be, definitely have faith in yourself and this whole process. Because it could get very dark especially at the beginning and you don't know how long the start process is going to last. But it could suddenly turn so bright that it goes so fast that you don't even, you can't even capture everything but it could just suddenly turn around. So have faith. Definitely it will come, the brightness will come.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:27

If you enjoy this story, this episode, then you can learn more like the one you just heard today in our audiobook: Happen To Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work If you're listening to this, and you enjoy this podcast, I know you're gonna love the book. You can visit happentoyourcareer.com/audible in order to get the book right now and start listening right away. All right, we'll see you next time. Here's what's coming up next week.

Speaker 3 35:55

If you step back from employee engagement, what drives that? Well, it's really getting people into the right roles, fit to role, strengths to role, so that people can use their strengths in their current role.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:07

Okay, here's a question for you. If you were to prioritize what creates the happiest and most engaged, most productive people in their work, what's at the top of that list? In other words, what matters most when it comes to you doing fulfilling work? I'm going to give you a hint. It's not ping pong tables. It's not pay. It's not even a flexible work schedule. Although that's actually pretty far up the list too. It turns out, there's one thing that has a higher impact than all of those. And that is whether or not your strengths fit the role that you're performing at work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:47

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Rachael Robertson 00:00

I thought that's what leadership is, you know, if you need me, I'm there. After about six weeks, I thought, "I can't do this. I can't be available to you guys around the clock the whole time because it will absolutely burn me out."

Introduction 00:18

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:42

I think we can all agree that our society has a hard time setting boundaries when it comes to work. Whether it's responding to emails as they come into our inbox no matter what hour it is, or agreeing to meetings after our established working hours. Today's technology makes it almost too easy to think we have to always be on. In fact, the science now backs up what we already know to be true. A recent study from the University of Illinois proves that this lack of boundary control directly leads to more stress and quicker burnout. But even though we all know this is true, why is it that we still struggle so badly to hold our boundaries?

Rachael Robertson 01:21

The thing that blew me away was the scrutiny of the leadership role and the fact that you're being watched 24 hours a day, every day, for an entire year, like, you do not knock off ever. There's not one hour where you can say I'm not the boss today, and I had to learn how to manage that boundary. So I didn't have my staff knocking on my bedroom door at 10 o'clock at night.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:41

That's Rachael Robertson. Rachael is a keynote speaker, author of "Leading on the Edge" and "Respect Trumps Harmony”, and is best known as an authority on leading in extreme environments. She was the leader of the 58th Australian National Antarctic and research expedition where she lived with her co-workers, 24 hours a day, and in complete darkness during the winter. For many, that sounds like a nice recipe for madness. But Rachael excelled in that environment. And she came away with amazing learnings that she now shares with leaders all over the world. In our conversation, Rachael gives specific examples of how you can influence your work culture to get better at holding boundaries, and how she implemented these practices in the most extreme environment. Here's Rachael going back to the beginnings of her career.

Rachael Robertson 02:34

I desperately wanted to be a journalist growing up. I love, yeah, I love writing, love journalism. And it was only when I was starting to look at university courses that I found out, well, particularly in Australia back then, most journalists came through a cadetship, it wasn't a tertiary education, you did a three or four year cadetship. And so the closest thing I could find to was a public relations degree, which was in a university 500 kilometers from my home, but I had to move out of home and not know anyone and go down there. And then, so I spent all this time studying for this degree– a bachelor's degree in Public Relations and Journalism. And then I got my first job. And I hated it. And I'm like, "Oh, my goodness, this is not what I thought I was signing up for." And it was really interesting. I was working in an organization that managed national parks. And so I was doing all the PR for national parks and all the events, and the park rangers would come into the office. And now we're really happy people, though just delightfully happy. And here I am thinking when was the last day I called in sick because I hate this job. And I looked at the rangers and I thought, "I want that. I want to be like that. I want to be happy like them. I want to come to work doing a job that makes me feel good. And I feel like I'm making a difference. So I'm going to do that." So I went back then and studied to become a park ranger. So it's a complete different career change. But it was really just that reflection of, I'm not happy. And this is a big part of my life for many, many years. I better make some decisions here. So it was a bit of a winding road.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:05

I'm curious, first of all, you went into that role with one type of perception of what it was going to be. And I heard you say that it was not whatever that was, but what were some of the biggest differences between "Hey, I thought it was gonna be this. And it most definitely was not"?

Rachael Robertson 04:20

Yeah, I knew there would be a lot of organizing events, and events were fine. But I didn't realize how restrictive journalism or writing professional business writing is when you're representing a company. So I wanted the freedom to write because that was the part I liked about journalism– was the writing side of it and the investigating. I didn't recognize that when you're the face of a company, when you're writing public relations literature for a company you're very restricted and there's no opinion. You can't have any opinion, you can't even offer an alternative way of thinking, like, there's a set words and even like it's almost a script that you need to stick to. And it's like "wow, this is not what I thought it was. I don't know." Yeah, it was a bit of my naivety. But also, I think, not having worked in the industry before, not understanding that public relations is not what I thought it was, I thought it was some lots of writing and doing events and talking to the public, but it's actually representing the company or the organization in putting on its best face. And sometimes that might mean hiding the truths from the shareholders or stakeholders, or massaging the truth. So the message is managed. And that part of it, I had no idea because they don't teach you that in the PR school.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:35

They don't. Oh, my goodness. So then, what happened from there to transition? What are the events that were set up that allowed you to then much later travel to Antarctica for a year and then? Help fill in some of the gaps here.

Rachael Robertson 05:56

And that one, I would love to say, was a strategic career move that I had planned, but it wasn't. I was just flicking through a newspaper, one Saturday morning, as you do having a breakfast on a Saturday morning. And I was flicking through a newspaper and I saw a picture of a penguin in the careers section of the job.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:13

Oh the penguins they'll get you every time.

Rachael Robertson 06:15

How bizarre is it to see a penguin in the career section. And that's initially, I'm like, "what on earth is a penguin doing there?" So that's what caught my eye. And then I looked at the job description and the advertisement. And in the job, they were recruiting for qualities. So the Australian Antarctic Division, which is very similar to the United States Antarctic Program, they recruit for qualities and attributes. So they recruit for resilience, empathy, integrity, you actually don't need to know anything about Antarctica. And I just thought that was a fantastic way to recruit. And by this stage, I'd been promoted up to I was the chief ranger of the Great Ocean Road, Victoria. So the 12 apostles and all that beautiful coastline, and that was my patch, my office. And I was really struggling to recruit park rangers coming out of university with resilience and empathy. They had fantastic tertiary qualifications, they had high distinctions and great degrees. But when I put them in front of the park visitors, they were just hopeless, and I'd say, "Look, can you go and do a patrol?" So just go around and check the park, and they drive past the visitors. And I'm like, "No, I want you to stop, get out of the vehicle, introduce yourself to our visitors say, Hi, can I get you a map? Do you need anything? Would you like to know we're in a good walkies? And actually do that customer service stuff." So when I saw this job advertised, fantastic, and my finished plan was, I thought, "I'm going to apply for this job just so I can get to the job interview stage. So I can find out what the questions are they're using. And I'm going to copy those questions and bring them back to my job because I want to recruit for resilience. And I want to recruit for empathy and integrity." It was only after I posted the application, I found out they don't actually have a job interview. They have a week long boot camp. So I end up in this boot camp with 13 men competing for this job that I still didn't particularly want. And then lo and behold, they offered me the job. And I thought "You know what? I'd rather regret what I did than regret what I didn't do." And so the only reason I ended up down there was because it was an opportunity that came away. And I thought, what's the lesser evil like to go down there and go, "Oh, I hate this. What have I done" or not do it and then look back and spend the rest of my life looking back wondering going, "Ah, I wonder what would have happened if I'd done that Antarctic Expedition." That really was just a matter of regret what I did rather than regret what I didn't do. And so my role was station leader. And so all of the stations, I think there's 17 countries that have stations in Antarctica, my role was the station leader. So I was responsible for the welfare and safety. In summer, we have 120 people, and they're mostly scientists. So that's the only reason we're in Antarctica is to do climate change research. So in summer, I've got 120 people doing all their climate change, global warming stuff. I've got planes, I've got helicopters, I've got a big trades contingent because we can only do construction work in summer. So I've got all these various people, 24 hours of daylight. It's really exciting. It's really fun, different things happening every day.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:15

And for a variety, for sure.

Rachael Robertson 09:17

It was huge. And we're working massive hours because we've only got such a short period of time to do the research. So we've only got about two months. So we work seven days a week, we work long hours. And it's fun, there's a buzz about the joint. Then they all go home in February and a little group of 18 of us stayed behind. And we are there just to maintain the station for asset management. We just keep the place warm, keep it running until the next summer. So my role as the leader in summer is operational. It's sending out resources and it's working out priorities and it's looking at the safety as well. But it's a very different job in winter. Because in winter it's a lot more around morale and mental well being and how do I keep this team motivated. When we're in lockdown, we're effectively in a nine month lockdown, complete isolation, we cannot come home even if we want to. So my job then flipped to very much this is how to lead, how to manage conflict, for example, how to stop people having an argument or a debate or whatever, killing each other, and keeping them safe for the next nine months of darkness. 24 hours of darkness. But yeah, having to lead through isolation is really difficult. But it's a different job, summer and winter.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:32

So I'm curious, what do you think it was going to be? And what were the areas that were different or the same versus what actually was from your perception?

Rachael Robertson 10:42

The place itself blew me away, because I thought Antarctica was white, like every image in my brain or everything I've seen has been white. And it's not, it's actually really colorful, because it's so cold, it's crystals, floating around in the sky, and the sun hits the crystals and reflects all this light. So there's pinks, and greens and blues and purples and they form these, some of them are called "solar pillars", some are called "sun dogs", they've got those crazy names. And they're just these light shows. And it's just so colorful and beautiful. And I never knew that. I thought it was all white. So the place itself blew me away. I didn't realize... I'd heard people say when you go to Antarctica, it changes your life. And I sort of thought, yeah, whatever. Can't imagine that I've traveled a lot around the world, I've never met a single place that changed my life, and maybe an experience but not geography. But it really does change your life. And I've thought about it a lot since. And the reason is that you slow down, and you reflect, you've got a lot of time to reflect on your life and am I where I thought I would be with my life personally and professionally. And because there's no distractions, so you're not rushing off to meetings, you're not rushing off to take kids to sport, there's no traffic. So you spent a lot of time in your head reflecting on yourself and your life. And so the place itself blew me away. The job, I guess the overwhelming thing that I was totally unprepared for, and I should have been because I'd been in leadership roles for 16 years. But the thing that blew me away was the scrutiny of the leadership role. And the fact that you're being watched 24 hours a day, every day, for an entire year, like you do not knock off ever. There's not one hour where you can say I'm not the boss today. And I had to learn how to manage that boundary. So I didn't have my staff knocking on my bedroom door at 10 o'clock at night or interrupting my breakfast. And I had to get really strong on my boundaries, which I hadn't done before. And it blew me away that I had been told that like, I'd been told by former station leaders that you're watched the whole time. And, I thought yeah, if I'm not that interesting, no one's gonna watch me. And yet they did. So where I set for meals was noticed, what time I started work was noticed, if I spent more time with one person than another that was noticed. And so I had to have this dialogue in my brain about "Okay, well, I need to go and spend time down that end of the table as these guys because I sit with these people at lunch, so I better sit with them at dinner." And it's just extraordinary when you live with the same people you work with. So you never get away from your colleagues

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:11

You said a couple things in there that I'm really interested in. One is the idea of being, you didn't call it always on, but that's the words that I'm going to use.

Rachael Robertson 13:24

Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:25

So first of all, I'm curious what did that teach you, as it relates to, first of all your career, and then second of all about how you behave and act. And I think most importantly, those boundaries. You mentioned those boundaries. And I think that most people that I've met over the years when I asked them and I've had a lot of opportunities to ask people because I get into all kinds of weird conversations for variety of reasons, partially because of what we do as an organization partially because I am the type of person in Alaska, "Hey, how do you feel about your boundaries?" But most people feel like that's an area that they can do much better in. So what did you learn that might help other people as especially as it relates to being always on and boundaries?

Rachael Robertson 14:12

I always thought that all through my career, I thought my time management was bad. I blame my time management because I'd be the first in the office. I'd be the last one out. I was checking emails at night, I'd miss my lunch break. And I think "Oh, my time management is so bad." And I did every time management course, known to man, I did everything they tell you to do. So I turned off my email notifications, I prioritize my to-do list. I did all of that. And yet, I'm still working longer hours. And it wasn't because I was incompetent because I knew my job. And I'm like, "Well, my time management is bad." It was only living in Antarctica that taught me it was never my time management, it was actually my boundaries. And so what I had been doing professionally my whole career was every single time someone came up to me in the office and said, "Rachael, have you got a minute?" And it's never a minute that they'd say, "you've got a minute?", "have you got a minute?" My default position was always "Yeah, sure. Yeah, sure I do." And so when I went to Antarctica, I thought my job as the leader is to be there. These people need me, I'm there. That's my job as their leader. And they would, they'd knock on my bedroom door at 10 o'clock at night, and I'd yell out, "Yeah?" And because they'd see the light on shining under the door. So they knew I was awake. And then they'd open the door, and I'd be reading a book and they'd say, "Oh you're reading a book" and I go, "It's okay, I'll put a jacket on, I'll come out." Because I thought that's what leadership is– if you need me, I'm there. After about six weeks, I thought I can't do this. I can't be available to you guys around the clock the whole time, because it will absolutely burn me out. So the next time it happened, they interrupted my breakfast to sign a permission slip to go and photograph penguins. And I said, this penguins again.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:51

They're always there. They're just waiting.

Rachael Robertson 15:55

And I said, "Guys, I need to have my breakfast. And this isn't urgent. So can I meet you in my office? Or let's say in 15 minutes? How does that sound?" And once I put that boundary there, they respected it. But prior to that I had no boundaries. And so I realized that what I've been doing the whole time through my career was not saying, "not now." And it's okay to say "not now", if you don't have the time. So what I should have said was, all through my career, if I didn't have the time, I should have said, "Look, I've got to get this report to the CEOs office by 3 o'clock, can you come back at 3:15?" And manage that boundary and why it's so important, I now know, for two reasons. One, it's a great coaching time, it's a great opportunity to coach people around what your job is and what your priorities are. So when your staff interrupt, it's a great time to say, "Look, we've got a board meeting in a week, and I've got to get the board report done," or "I've got to get the sales report up to the CEO." Whatever it is, and let them know your priorities. You're coaching them. The second one and more importantly, you know, when you're talking to someone, if they've mentally checked out, you can see it in their eyes, if you're talking to someone and they're vague doubt. And I think of how many times over the years, my staff came to me and said, "Have you got a minute?" And I went, "Yeah, sure I do." And they're talking to me and my brains going, "Oh, my goodness, I've got that meeting coming up at four I haven't prepared for. I've got to write that. I've got to do this." And they saw that. They saw it in my eyes that I wasn't listening or wasn't present. So it actually damaged the relationship. It was worse than if I had said, "Not now. Can you come back?" I thought I was doing the right thing. But I wasn't. I actually damaged the relationship because I wasn't listening. And I would have picked that up. So I think I say to people now when they complain, or you know, the boss rings me at eight o'clock at night, or customers ring me at six o'clock in the morning. And I say "Well, do you answer the call?" And they say "Yeah" and I'll go, "Well, there you go." They don't think there's anything wrong with it. Because you answer the phone or you answer the email. If you stop doing that and you train them you say, "Look, unless it's urgent, then after seven o'clock, I'm with my family. That's family time. So unless it's urgent, I'll get to it in the morning." And it's up to you to manage that boundary because other people won't do that intuitively. If you've had a pattern of responding all the time, they won't pick that up until you actually say "Yep, right. Here's the line in the sand. Here's my boundary." So it's up to you, yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:13

I've thought a lot about boundaries over the years, partially for selfish reasons. And partially because it shows up in a lot of the work that we do. And I think a lot of the HTYCers that are listening to this right now would identify with what it is, even if it's something that you've done many times over, it can still be difficult. Even if you're practiced at it, it can still be difficult in new situations or new people or different relationship dynamics, or I don't know, name another situation that is a variable that gets thrown in there, but can still be difficult. So I appreciate that. When you were spending that time in Antarctica, you mentioned this idea of building a case that Respect Trumps Harmony, what was behind the scenes that really came and said, "Hey, look, this is a big deal."

Rachael Robertson 19:05

Yeah, I can tell you the second. I can tell you the absolute minute when I latched on to that one. It was our get-to-know-you-barbecue. So I don't recruit my expedition team, which a lot of people are surprised about that, but the way it is. So I just given 17 random people and I'm told to turn them into a team. By the way your life depends on your teamwork, off you go. And so I'd met them all over a period of weeks one on one that we decided to have a barbecue and have a get-to-know-you-barbecue. So this is the first time the entire 18 of us would get together and meet each other. These are the people we're going to be living with around the clock for the next 12 months. And we're at this barbecue and my plumber was telling a story about being in Alaska and he said it was so cold. The water freezes under your feet at minus 21 degrees Celsius and that's how cold it was. The water freezes into ice. My electrical engineer was standing there. He's from Germany, and he said, "Well, water freezes at zero degrees Celsius, not minus 21 degrees. So it must have been at least zero degrees, not at least minus 21 degrees." And I'm like, "Oh dear, okay, these two are going to come to blows. They're just gonna end up in a fight." And I'm like, "What do I do here? What do I do?" And so I intervened. And I took them aside privately. And I said to the trades minister, "Look, he's an electrical engineer, and he's from Germany. So culturally and professionally, he's from a very exact, precise place. So his brain needs accurate data." So when he heard you say that, he corrected because he was correct, like, that's a fact. And I said that he's not trying to take the mickey out of you. He's not trying to humiliate you. It's just the way his brain operates. But I then had to go to the engineer and say, "Look, when you do that, when someone's just telling a story or a joke, and they get a little bit of the information wrong, and you correct them, it's actually a bit humiliating, so just let it go. It doesn't matter. It's a story, let it go." And they ended up being really good, good friends, these two. But at the time, I'm thinking, "How, I had not given a second thought to the cognitive diversity in my team." So I looked at them. And we were different across generations and gender and age, culture. But what I'd hadn't recognized was the other diversities, and not as visible. And it just blew me away. Once I got to know these people how different we were, and I'm like, "Wow, I can't expect that we're all going to love each other." Because we're just so different. And we had polar opposite views on some things. And I'm like, "Wow, what am I going to do here?" And so to expect that they love each other, or even like each other, I thought it was a bit unrealistic. So I took that off the table. And I said, "I don't expect you to love each other or even like each other, I do expect you to treat each other with respect." And so respect became the bedrock of everything we did, it was like, "I don't have to agree with you, I don't have to love you. But I will always treat you with respect." And that was the moment, I remember it vividly, that was the moment where I realized I have to do something here as a leader to set up a culture where we can respect each other, but equally talk about issues as grownups in a professional way and deal with things because I was really worried that someone would spiral with depression, or someone would explode with anger. Because I had no ability to deal with either scenario. So I thought, how do I create this environment where we do speak up, and we do stand up for ourselves and how we're feeling? And we deal with it, we saw it and we move on. But yeah, it was before we even left for Antarctica that I recognized that I needed to do something to create the culture for this team, because otherwise, holy dooley, we're gonna be in for some fun times.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:45

You have a chapter in your second book, I think it's called something like "harmony is the road to mediocrity" or something along those lines. So I'm really interested in having you here for just a moment, define what harmony and what respect actually means from your perspective. Because I think that many of us, as human beings, have a misperception or mis-desire to think that really what we want is harmony in many different areas. And that's not exclusively true. However, that's definitely something that I've seen. And you make a compelling case that maybe that's not always a great thing. In fact, in a lot of areas, that's not. So first of all, what do you mean when you say harmony? What do you mean when you say respect?

Rachael Robertson 23:33

So to me, respect is understanding a person's rights and responsibilities and understanding that they're entitled to their opinions, and they're entitled to their values. And I have no right to try and convince you to change your... if it's something you hold deeply, a belief you hold deeply, I don't have the right to try and convince you. I just respect that you're different. So rather than try and get everyone around to my way of thinking or behaving or living, just saying, "Okay, I respect that we're different." How many is that piece of or getting along? And why I think Respect Trumps Harmony... and I chose the word "Trump" very carefully, particularly given the book is in the United States. And we did have a big discussion about whether there was another word I should use. And I just felt there was no other word that captured the notion that Respect Trumps Harmony. So the publisher said, "What about beats?" And I said, "But it doesn't beat harmony." They're both equally important. I'm just saying that when you have to choose, one or the other, it's like a deck of cards when you have to choose, then this one has sovereignty over this one. So respect should always be more important. And why I'll worry about it is when I've worked in teams where harmony was the focus, so we keep the peace and we all get along and everything's smooth, a few things happen. Bullying and harassment still goes on. People still bully each other and there's still a lot of that bad behavior, but it goes underground. So people won't raise it as an issue because they don't want to be the person who shatters this mirage of harmony. The second one, more importantly, is innovation. You can't have innovation if you have a culture of always having harmony if that's your focus. Because there are meetings that people will sit in a meeting and they'll nod their heads and they'll say, "Yeah, yeah." And then they walk out of the meeting and go, "That's not going to work." And you think, "Why didn't you say that at the time?" And it's because they don't want to offer a difference of opinion or a conflicting view. And I think that the most important one, though, is around safety. And I think if you're focusing on harmony, and isn't it great here, we're all good friends, and we all get along and everything's sweet. No one puts a hand out and says, "Actually, I'm not so good right now, you know, I'm struggling right now." So I'll worry about mental safety, but also physical, if someone's doing something unsafe, not following the correct procedure, if the culture of that team is harmony, is to keep the peace, that's when people turn a blind eye. And that's when they walk past and go, "Oh I don't want to get involved in that." And I think that's dangerous. And so I really worry about teams where, at the front, the number one goal for the team is this almost complicit behavior of not being different, if not being the outlier of we're all in this together, we're all the same, we all love each other. Because I think it's okay to say we are different. In fact, it's great that we have differences. It's how we handle conflict. That's the bigger issue. But having respect for differences, I think is fantastic. And understanding that we're different, and that's wonderful. That's a fantastic thing that we're all really different people.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:25

There was, well, here's a quick story, I used to be an HR leader in manufacturing. And one of the things that would happen is, within the company that I was working with, occasionally people would get injured. And sometimes there were actually some pretty serious injuries, unfortunately, and every single time, one of my roles was to go in, help figure out how we could eliminate this from happening again. And I would go in as an HR leader, so I'm very focused on the people, and that's my predisposition and everything else. And where that culture had, what you're referring to as harmony present, it almost always showed up in those types of situations, somebody always knew about something in advance, or somebody could have prevented it in almost every single situation. And because the harmony was one of the sometimes accidental priorities, or the most valuable thing in that culture, I didn't necessarily want it to be, but sometimes it was, and then it would still be allowed to happen. And it was sad to see that on one side. But I also think it really makes the case that, if that is the most important thing accidentally or intentionally, then it's going to lead to situations like that again, and again and again. So I'm curious, from your perspective, you mentioned cognitive diversity. And this is, some of the contexts that you put it in are some of the first times that I've heard people place a lot of emphasis on this. And with cognitive diversity, what did you find the benefits to be to highlight that diversity or highlight those differences? Because you gave a lot of examples of how you did that.

Rachael Robertson 28:14

Yeah, well we did. I spent a lot of time highlighting differences, because I wanted people to respect it. And even simple things like people's motivation for working in Antarctica was an issue. And I've seen this in other workplaces where some people work in Antarctica for the money, it's a very well paid job it has to be, we wouldn't do it if it was low pay. And so it's a very well paid position. And so there are a certain cohort of people who work there for the money, they would like to save a deposit for a house in 12 months. So they work there just for the money. Now that really irritated some of the others who were there for the experience like myself. I was there to experience Antarctica and to see the penguins and to see the southern lights, to see the wildlife and the icebergs. And it really drove these other people crazy. And they're saying, "Well, how come these people have given up everything they love, and they haven't even left the station." They've been on the station for six months, I haven't even bothered to experience Antarctica. And I had to say, "Well, Respect Trumps Harmony. That's the reason for being here. Just respect that." And I think by highlighting the differences, particularly in cognitive, so that the biggest, the most obvious one, was the introverts and extroverts. Now if I'd had a full team of all extroverts, and I was an introvert that would have been really, really difficult if you're the only introvert. But the opposite is the same as well, because we need the extroverts because they are the social element. They pulled together the St. Patrick's Day quiz, or they pulled together the Christmas events and they really gave a sense of community. So without them, it would have been terrible. But equally without the introverts, the introverts were the ones who when you were struggling, you go and have a quiet chat with them. You could walk around the station and have a quiet chat. And so they had an important role as well. And I think, I shudder to think what it would have been like to have spent 12 months with only one type of person, we needed that mix of people, we really did. And that's where it started to get me thinking about this cognitive difference. And I know certainly here in Australia, whenever we talk diversity, it's usually either gender. So we're saying we need more women in senior roles in companies, or we talk about our indigenous community. And we talk about indigenous culture. And so it's one or the other. And so just to be able to say, we could name 15 other metrics to measure diversity from generation, sexuality, religion, culture, age, professional background, like there's so many. And once I started to recognize that in myself, I saw it in other people, and I thought, "Wow, we really are, really different to each other. And that's a good thing. That's okay." So it was yeah, for me, it was a real eye opener, because I'd only ever dealt with diversity on one or two measures and to see that there were all these others, and how completely different people can be. And that's a good thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:59

I think that there's a lot of power in that. One of the things that I wanted to ask you is how can people leverage focusing on that cognitive diversity and respecting that cognitive diversity, and just focusing on differences, and using that to be able to impact their career in their life in a very positive way.

Rachael Robertson 31:20

I think there's a stack of psychometric tests you can do and I think most of us have gone through a Myers Briggs or a brain dominance or something. So there's a lot of professional tools. But I think one of the best tools is to build your self awareness. Like I truly believe self awareness is the most important quality for any leader, I think, if you've got self awareness, you will learn the rest. So it starts there. If you've got self awareness, and you understand yourself, it's a lot easier then to try and understand other people. And I think you can get that through coaching, through mentoring, through frank and fearless conversations with someone you trust. For me and Antarctica, I did a lot of reflecting, I kept a journal and the journal was really just to keep me sane, I had no one to talk to. So it enabled me to get my thoughts out, and so I could sleep better, because I've got my thoughts out. But it helped me as a leader, too, because I could see what I got wrong. A lot of the times, I made the wrong decision. And I could have just said it was the station behaving that way. So I could have just written it off as a cabin fever. They've gone mad, it's cabin fever, when in fact, it was my flawed decision making that caused it. So by standing on a balcony everyday looking down watching myself that built my own self awareness, and I think from that I could then understand other people better. And from there, it was just a matter of talking about it, actually using the words and saying, "Well, they're different because they're like this and showcasing differences." So I talked about in the book that just to break up the boredom, I decided to have what is called Super Tuesday, which was just…

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:50

I love Super Tuesday by the way.

Rachael Robertson 32:51

Yeah, and that was just, I'll be really honest, that was to stop people sitting in the bar drinking beer, and drinking alcohol every night. I thought, "well, I just, I need something to break that up, without being their mum and telling them no, you can't do that", because it's their home, you know, your boss wouldn't come to your home on a weeknight and say, "Hang on a minute." So I put the sheet up on the wall, and I said, "Anyone who's got got a passion on or is knowledgeable about a subject and you'd like to talk to the rest of the community about it, 7:30 to 8:30, every Tuesday, put your name down, let us know what the topic is." And I was hoping that maybe five or six people would do it. Within a couple of days, it was fully subscribed, within a couple of days all 17 people had put something out and it ranged from living in Prague, someone lives in Prague. We had a pagan woman who talked to us about pagan rituals, which was interesting. We had someone taught digital photography, astronomy, and someone taught Italian lessons. And what it did was all of these skills and abilities that every one of us have, but you don't necessarily see at work, it meant "Wow, I still might not be your best friend, or he's still not my cup of tea. But gee, I respect the fact you speak three languages" or "Gee, I respect your knowledge around astronomy." And so again, that builds respect in the team because it's not saying I have to like you. But I respect that you've got all of these skills and abilities that you don't come to work and talk about. And so we have no knowledge of all our colleagues that we work with have got these amazing abilities and skills that we've never heard of. So I'd love to say that was a brilliant career move by me or brilliant leadership, but it wasn't. I did it initially, just to break up the boredom. And then it turned into something really powerful, which I had to reflect on, took me a few days to cotton on that, wow, that's what that was. How cool.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:41

Hey, if you've been thinking about making a change for a while now, and you don't really know how to best take the first step or get started, here's what I would suggest: Just open your email app on your phone right now. And I'm gonna give you my personal email address scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put "Conversation" in the subject line. Tell me a little bit about your situation and I'll connect you with the right person on our team where we can figure out the very best way that we can help you. Scott@happentoyourcareer.com, drop me an email.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:12

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 35:17

When I finally hit that moment of realization, everything just clicked. So I think what surprised me was how fast it could happen when you finally get everything together.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:30

What if you could know for a fact that you would find more meaningful work by attempting a career change? What do you take that leap? Career change isn't easy. And the journey is never a straight line, never. It can take quite a while to get more meaningful work– a lot longer than many people expect. And so often people quit working on a career change when they hit the unavoidable roadblocks and those low points. It's so much harder than almost everyone expects, at least if your goal is meaningful, well paid work. But here's the thing, I have yet to meet anyone who has made it to the other side and doesn't absolutely think that it was all worth it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:11

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Jenn Bloomhuff 00:00

You start to think in a certain way where it's like, "Oh, I can't do that. I've only been doing this for 15 years, you know, "I don't have the skill set to go over here." Yet, when you really break it down or like, it's kind of been at the core of what you've been doing. Maybe not 100% exactly, but if you distill it down to those skill sets or those strengths, you're like, "Wow, it's been there the entire time."

Introduction 00:26

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:51

When it comes to making a change, to more fulfilling work, so many of us assume that if we want to switch to more fulfilling work, that means that we need to switch companies or industries or we need to drastically change, we need to do a 180, we need to do something that is completely different. But it turns out that's not always the case. Sometimes the best path to career fulfillment can actually be found in your current organization.

Jenn Bloomhuff 01:18

It's a lot easier to really try on a new role when you've already established your reputation at a company, you already know the lay of the land, right? You already know the actors that are going to be involved in everything that you're doing. And so there's a little sense of comfort in that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:36

That's Jenn. She had worked in product management for over 15 years and had the realization that while she didn't particularly dislike her role, it was no longer lighting her up like it once had. She then made a move into market development. But a few years into that role, she found herself in the exact same place. When she began to dig into what the next right step for her career should be, she recognized a stain with her current organization was a much better fit for her. So much better fit for her. And exactly the right move compared to pursuing opportunities elsewhere. I want you to listen to my conversation with Jenn, pay attention to how she dug into what she valued the most– her values– to make the decision to stay at her current company. How she had conversations with leadership about her hopes to move into a new department, move into a new area. And the ways that she experimented with different roles in her organization to find one that aligned with her strengths and reignited that career spark that she had previously. Here's Jenn going back to the beginning of her career journey,

Jenn Bloomhuff 02:43

This kind of sort of back all the way to when I was in high school. And you're in those moments where you're trying to think, like, "What do I want to be when I grow up? I need to pick a major when I go to college." And I'll be honest, it wasn't crystal clear for me. I think, sitting back, I was always envious of those people that knew exactly what they wanted to do, "I want to be a nurse or want to be an engineer." And for me, I just really didn't have that perspective or clarity. And so at the time, I would ask family and friends and they went from, like, a big list of "here's all the careers that are great that you should look into", or "don't worry about that, you'll figure it out along the way." And so I pretty much got into school, was basically testing things, taking classes that I liked, didn't like, tried to figure out my own path, but I was a little bit lost in that. But the one thing that I always knew and I told myself was I didn't want to go into business, which was quite comical. Because back then, the 17, 18 year old Jenn had no idea really what business was because I grew up in a whole different like blue collar environment, it was just different. That wasn't what we really talked about. And so it's so funny because I had no idea really what that meant. But that's what I always wanted to, I was like, "we're not going into business no matter what." So I danced around a little bit through school, and it really just ended up becoming like, "okay, just get a degree." And then when I came out, I was kind of still a little bit lost, right? I had this degree, I felt like I did well in school, but I needed to figure out what was next. And a friend of mine worked, a really good friend of mine, worked at a company and he was in a sales role. And he's like, "Hey, we have this opening. And it's more of an entry level. You're basically what we would call an account admin to a salesperson", and did the interview, got a job offer, yay, first official offer. And I actually did really well. And after a couple of years in that role, I was consistently being recognized and I started to get promoted. And that felt good. And I had that moment when I just stopped and sat back and thought, "Well, you know, business really isn't that bad. I don't know why was I so averse to this." like throughout my whole career, or my college career. And pretty much at that time, I did that role for a few years. And I realized I was missing, kind of, a piece of what I enjoyed, which was really around creating and problem solving, but in a way that you actually had something tangible. And at that time in that company, I was introduced to the role of Product Management. And I knew some few folks in marketing. I had a good relationship with the VP of marketing. And at that point, he really kind of took a chance on me and offered me a role. And I pretty much fell in love with it at the time, it was everything that I needed it to be, I was able to do a lot of different things and kind of get a taste for a lot of different kinds of spokes on the wheel, as I like to say. And it really, that was, like, a pivotal moment where that really set me up for a career in product management pretty much 15 years of my career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:31

Yeah. For those people who might not fully know what product management is, how would you describe product management?

Jenn Bloomhuff 05:41

It's a little different at every company, quite frankly. So some of it can be a little bit more project related, where you're just... you run a team, and you're running that too when it's done, then you move on. In the companies that I've always been at, it was more of you were almost like a mini GM, and you own this business. And it was typically, in my experience, was a product category. And so it was a product category, you owned that category. And so you were responsible for the P&L, you're responsible if that little business was profitable or not, you were responsible for the new products that you've got to develop that were meeting the needs of your customers. And pretty much it was like a little mini business within a bigger business. And so what I liked about it, is that you had access to a lot of different things. So you had marketing, you had typical, like project management, where you're, like, on task, on time, on budget, you're managing a team. But then you also got to do, like, creative stuff like product design and influence some of that, like, you wouldn't be the one doing it, but you were like on the team helping to influence that and shape it. And at the end of the day, you were always the, we would say, like the voice of the customer. So you were the representative of the person that you were making the product for. So you had to make sure, "is this really solving a need out in the market?" and all the efforts that the team did collectively helped to deliver on that. And that was exciting, because at the end of the day, like, before my current company, much of my background was on the consumer product side. And it was really cool to walk into a store or have family members walk into a store and see a product that you helped develop, which was just kind of a cool thing. You would be like, "oh, yeah, I helped create that." And what was nice about that, is that really that interaction, where you knew that, depending on the different categories I was involved with, people were purchasing a product and they were using it and having a like intimate relationship with this product that you created. And whether it was a toy that children are learning to grow and develop skills, or if it was like in other places like products that would help you live a happier, healthier lifestyle, like those types of products. And so that was always really cool for me, I always really enjoy it, and I still, I laugh, I get tingles when I talk about it, because I'm always like, that is still a really cool job.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:02

Absolutely. So then as you progressed throughout your career, what led up to you deciding, you know what, what I'm currently doing is no longer right for me. I need to make a change. Help me understand.

Jenn Bloomhuff 08:16

And I'll be honest, I think there were little bits of that that were happening for multiple years. And I think I was just getting burned out. And it wasn't lighting me up, I guess in a way like it used to. And it took me a while to I think admit to myself, because I was very, quite frankly, a little bit nervous about that was the only thing I really ever knew for quite a long time. And so I thought, "do I know how to do anything else?" And it's funny, because being in a role that really exposed me to a lot of things, it's almost funny hearing myself even say that, that I was like nervous about doing anything else when my role itself was, you would do a lot of different things, and I got exposure to a lot of different things. But you know, I think there's like that comfort level you get. And I tell people, I didn't hate my job, I really didn't. It just wasn't lighting me up anymore. And I'm the type of person that really can't, I don't want to say fake it, but just keep doing it when it's just not delivering in that way. Because I feel, like, that I'm not my best self, I'm not showing up as my best self every day. So at that point, I decided to, again, wasn't feeling it, was starting to have issues with motivation, self doubt started to creep in, confidence, things like all those things that start to happen when you're in that headspace. And so I said, "okay, like you got to pull it together, you got responsibilities, you need to figure out what you want to do." And at the time, I just kind of did it on my own. And so I did my own work, I realized that I wasn't ready to leave the company, but I ended up moving into a different role that was in market development on the different side of our business. So a little bit of marketing, a little bit of sales, still had that ability to kind of create and problem solve and do some of that stuff. So I felt like it was a perfect fit for me. Less than a year into that role, the pandemic hits, and everybody was turned upside down, right? Just like everything. And then once things kind of settled in, once we got through, like 2020, 2021, things kind of settled into the new normal that everyone talks about. And it was just that things were different. And so at that time, I always say, again, I didn't hate my job, but I just, I didn't really love it anymore. And so it's like, I liked it until I didn't. And at that time, I was just like, "Okay, I'm back to this again, like what's going on?" And I did feel a little bit lost. And that's when I really started to consider the coaching aspect.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:35

Tell me... Let's go back here for just a second. One of the things I heard you say was about having exposure to so many different areas. But still, and you said, it's almost funny to hear myself say this, but it sounded like you still felt like, "how would I step out of, you know, what I know?" How do you think about that now? How has going through a, your most recent intentional change, how has that impacted how you think about what you know, what is outside of what you can see, how has that impacted your look on in perspective?

Jenn Bloomhuff 11:17

You know, I think when you're in, I feel like when you're in a headspace where you start to draw some sort of uncertainty about, you're not happy exactly in what you're doing, you're not feeling lit up or whatever word you want to use to describe it, I think that starts to play this kind of, at least for me, it started to kind of create this narrative in my head. And that's when all of these other things started to kind of seep in. And it does make you start to question your abilities, the whole imposter syndrome, all this stuff, right? And I'm sitting back, I'm thinking, I've done a lot of really good things in my career, I've been successful, but I think when you're in that headspace, I think it just starts to create these narratives that you tell yourself and that was one of the things that actually going through the coaching is that kind of highlighted some of those things that I was kind of, I don't wanna say self-sabotaging, but you, you start to think in a certain way where it's like, "Oh, I can't do that. I've only been doing this for 15 years", or however many years it is. "I don't have the skill set to go over here." Yet, when you really break it down, or like, that's kind of been at the core of what you've been doing, maybe not 100% exactly, but if you distill it down to those skill sets, or those strengths, you're like, "wow, it's been there the entire time."

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:26

When you look back on this most recent change, what do you feel was particularly challenging for you? Or what would you say were one or two of the hardest parts that you personally experienced?

Jenn Bloomhuff 12:43

I would say, I'll say this laughingly but it's the truth, is a little bit of just, like, getting out of my own way. I'm the type of person I like to have the clarity– I do the work, I try to figure it all out and have it created in this nice little box. And it doesn't always get delivered to you in that way. And I think leaning in and taking a little bit more risk, I'm typically not, I would never describe myself as a risk taker, I'm a definitely more security based type of person. But you can do that in a way that's very smart. You could do that in a way that's more calculated, and it's not impulsive. And I think that was, part of probably one of my biggest challenges was getting over my personal concerns, or my, you know, being a little bit nervous about kind of leaping in towards something when I wasn't 100% sure. And when I leaned into it, it all fell into place so much more natural than I ever thought it could be. And so I think that was probably one of the biggest things was that feeling of uncertainty, and kind of leaning in and taking a little bit of the risk, because that's just kind of part of the process, right? It's not always going to be, like, extremely cut and dry.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:52

Life is getting dry as it turns out. So I think that's an important point then. How did you do that? Or what did you find worked for you? Take me into a little bit of the nitty gritty where you were able to lean in and take a little bit more risk than what you're normally comfortable with? What did that look like for you?

Jenn Bloomhuff 14:13

So when I mentioned about deciding to go into coaching, part of the reason I did that is because I really felt like I needed, like, a shepherd, I needed somebody to kind of shepherd me through a little bit. And as I was going through some of these exercises, they do push you, depending on the exercise, they do push you a little bit to whether you're experimenting or having conversations that you normally really maybe wouldn't have or you kind of naturally go through do that throughout the whole entire program. And I mean, I'll be honest, because I stayed internally, you know, I had to have a conversation with my current boss who I absolutely adored and had a lot of respect for and to be able to walk through a conversation, it's a little bit unnerving. You don't know how they're gonna react and you don't want to feel like you're letting them down, at least I didn't feel like I didn't want to let her down. But it was such a different approach to be able to go in and talk through some of this stuff in a way that, you know, I always felt like having the experience and the clarity that came out of the program allowed me to 100% say, like, "I can have more impact in the business and overall is going to help our team, actually, my old team even more in this new role", because I have the right strengths, and all of that. It just allowed that conversation to... I was able to lead that conversation in a much different way. And so at the end of that conversation, she was very supportive, which I wasn't surprised about, obviously bummed out that I was like, looking to kind of look outside of our current department, but it allows you to lead that conversation in a different way, which I felt like it was important.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:48

Do you remember what you had said during that conversation? Or what your boss had said during that conversation? And would you be able to... What do you do?

Jenn Bloomhuff 15:59

Yeah, I'm trying to think through, I mean, probably one of the biggest things that I would tell like your listeners, or even just like my friends and family, if anyone, they just in general is just having the authenticity to just be vulnerable, and just kind of like share what's been going on, right? I mean, she was the type of manager where we were able to talk about a lot of things. So she knew that I had developmental aspirations and other things that I wanted to do. And the fact that some of those things weren't being met, wasn't a big surprise when we were having this type of a conversation. And so she was very supportive, which instantly, like made you feel like made me feel comfortable. And I can imagine that not always being the case for some people, and it being more of a negative conversation. And at the end of the day, like we can't control what the other person is going to say, we can only control, like, how we approach it, and how we're talking through it. So I feel like if you always show up in a way that's like your more authentic self, then it's going to be as positive, it's going to be like further and but you could at least feel like comfortable in your own skin that you did the right thing, and you weren't a jerk about it or anything.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:03

Yeah. So what happened after you had that initial conversation? What took place from there? Because it sounds like you went in and you had shared in a way that felt vulnerable for you that I feel like this is not meeting my needs, which was already on the same page with to some degree based on previous conversations. And also, I feel like I can add a different level of value added in another place in the organization. So after you had all of that conversation, what happened? What else?

Jenn Bloomhuff 17:38

Yeah. So this was what was the unique thing that was like in my situation that was happening at the time. And it was funny, because it was probably five months into the program in my coaching sessions. At the same time, like this project, that work that was coming on board was happening, and I took the lead on it, and this was again, my old role, took the lead on it. And it went really well, I got a lot of accolades for it. And it was so funny, because a lot of the... when you start to go through a program like or at least for me, when I was going through the program, it's like you get this injection of a confidence boost, right, because as you go through these exercises, you do start to be reminded about all the great strengths you have and some of the successes that you've had, where you want to go until you get a little bit excited again, and that excitement and energy and confidence, actually, really, I think was an important reason why my project that I was leading was so successful, because I was starting to get kind of like in the flow again, I was like lighting up in a way. And so when I did this project at the same time, it was so funny, because at the end of it is when I started to have conversations about what is now my currently my new role with our general manager of our business unit at the time. And it was so funny that I don't know, if I didn't go through the program, I'm not sure I would have kind of been ready to have those conversations, number one, and number two, I don't know if I would have like really been as successful in what I was actually doing, which was far more of kind of like a sales effort in this project than what I was doing. And so when that all happened, I came out of that was, like, December of last year, and I started to have more intentional conversations about moving into this onto the sales department. And so really, I think, if I didn't kind of go through the motions a little bit, because I'm that type of person, again, going back to like the safe experimenting, right, that was almost like one of my safe experiments. And at the end of it, in a way, I proved it to the people like you know, some of our leadership team that got to watch me, but I also most importantly, I think proved it to myself. And even my boss at the time, he was, my own boss was part of that project and it was a multi day meeting that I managed and put on and all this and orchestrated. And I think she saw it too. And so it was, like, kind of like, it just kind of blossomed after that, which probably makes it sound like a lot more glamorous than it was. But it really was like this combination of all these different things kind of happening at the same time. And that was exciting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:25

What caused you to recognize that continuing to stay with your organization was a much better fit for you than what you might have found elsewhere? How did that happen? How did that come about? Tell me a little bit about what caused you to recognize that?

Jenn Bloomhuff 20:42

Yeah, so I think going back to kind of, you know, what's funny, like, where it was at in the program, when this was all happening, was I was just getting ready to kind of kick off like the experimenting phase, right? Where it's like, identify either types of roles or companies and kind of go through that process. And part of that was having the conversations. And so just the fundamental shift and the thinking of, I can go talk to a VP or general manager of this group, and just talk about it in a way, just tell me a little bit about XYZ, the same approach and the recommendations that you would have for like going out and talking to external companies, you could do the same thing internally, and it does give you a different, it doesn't feel as pressured and kind of the informality of it, it's like, you don't feel put on the spot, everyone feels more relaxed, and you could just kind of have just a free flowing conversation. And I think in those conversations, not only were the people that were my peers and co-workers that I've had been working with and had a relationship with over the last nine years, when they even recognized and kind of confirmed some of that stuff back to you, that's also kind of filling up that confidence. And once I realized that kind of sales was naturally a part of my next step, I knew that it was going to be in that space. It's a lot easier, because it's a lot harder to start in a new company and then you're trying to figure out all the people plus you're doing a new role, that was really overwhelming for me. It felt a lot more comfortable and a lot more natural to do that within my existing company. And quite frankly, I felt like I realized during this process that I really wasn't ready to leave. I just was really ready to kind of take my strengths and use them in a different way that my current role just wasn't meeting that need anymore.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:34

Yeah, what do you feel like are the biggest pieces that your existing organization has that firmly line up with your ICP? Well, we call it the "Ideal Career Profile", which is a tool we use internally, but basically your list of must haves and ideals, were those pieces that you look back and say, "oh, yeah, my existing organization totally lined up with these pieces."?

Jenn Bloomhuff 23:00

Yeah, the first and foremost was, and I can see this throughout all of my career changes that I made, right. So I think of like, "Oh, like that was there that was there." So a lot of it was that I do feel like at the core, I want to be helping people, right, I think and it sounds aspirational, right. Everyone wants to help people and make an impact. But I needed to work at a company that had a vision or a mission that was bigger than just profit. And so I feel like when I think back my current company, like it aligned 100% in that space, and which isn't a surprise, based on knowing that that's important to me. Other things like feeling like you were valued and respected, I mean, that's also part of the company culture that I feel like I need a culture that delivers that as well. And a lot of times you just hate to say it, I'm going to have worked at other companies. I've been really lucky that I've been at a lot of good companies, but I've heard horror stories. So when I kind of went through the list of delivering on a purpose higher than just profit, basically, doing good in the world, respecting and having a culture that respected and wanted to grow their employees, and then just the basic compensation package that I needed, right. So like all of that, when I kind of started to go through all that, like, I felt like misalign. So it wasn't that I was trying to run away from the company, you know, some people leave the company because it's not meeting those needs at all. And for me, that wasn't the case at all.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:28

Well, I think a great example might be... when I hear you say, I was looking for a place where I felt respected and valued, if we dig into that, what your version of respected and valued is and what you need personally might be slightly different for the next person and the next person after that. And it sounds like it was totally aligning on those pieces, some of the environmental pieces, if you will, and the role, or job, or work pieces were the pieces that were needing to be changed.

Jenn Bloomhuff 25:04

Yeah, that's 100%, right. And I remember having a conversation with friends and even my husband. I was like, at any point in time in my career, I could probably have spit out the company values, what are the company's values? What's their mission statement? And I could have, like, regurgitated that, and I could still do that today with my current company. But I never sat and did the work to really figure out, "What are Jenn's values?" And at a high level, you can get to them. But when you actually just say, "Okay, I'm gonna sit down, and in the next hour and a half, I'm gonna go through this exercise and like, really think through it", that was something that kind of unlocked some stuff for me as well. Because your career is such a big part of who you are as a person as well, it was a little bit like the idea of going into coaching and kind of going down this path. It really, like I describe it, it's almost like self care in a way. Because there were things that I learned about myself through some of these tools that gave me a whole different sense of clarity. It wasn't just help me interview well, it helped me figure out what my strengths aligned that I'm gonna go pick and choose and update my resume, it was, for me, so much more on a deeper level than any of that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:12

I love that. I appreciate you going into detail on that. And I think something else that I am picking up from your career path is also important to point out here that it's an ongoing journey, for lack of a better phrase, you've had many roles in many organizations that have been great for you until they no longer were great, whether your needs changed, or something changed in the organization, or we had a pandemic or all kinds of things that maybe some uncontrollable, some influenceable, some not, right? And every single twist and turn may require reassessing what you need, what you want, in a new and different way. And so I appreciate you sharing that that's happened. And then also love that you're talking about what are some of the specific things that worked for you that you're going to carry with you? And that's my next question. What else have you learned from going through a change like this that you would recommend to other people that worked for you really well?

Jenn Bloomhuff 27:26

So I remember early on taking the StrengthsFinder, and I've taken it before, it was a while but I redid it again. And I'll be honest, the first thing I did is I had, I'll call it strength envy. I was like, "I don't want these strengths." I was just like, "I don't know if I want these." I expected, maybe other strengths not to pop out. But I think the other thing that I kind of highlighted was when I kind of was going through and digging deeper is, you know, at the end of the day, words create worlds. And we may have an understanding of what the definition of strength is. But it really, that may not be actually the true definition, right. I think that's some of the other things that kind of come out of this. And so as you kind of dig deeper into your strengths, and you go through this exercise where I like, sent a note to, you know, maybe 10-15 people, and it kind of came back, and it was such a common theme that it kind of reinforced and it kind of drew a different level of proudness for the strengths that I had. And it also reminded me how core, each one of these strengths for the most part have shown up and like supported me throughout my entire career. It was almost like I sat back and I thought, wow, and so just the pure learning of it's fundamentally like leaning into the strengths that you know you do well, because it's a lot easier to utilize those strengths to help make you successful versus just constantly trying to maybe focus on the ones that, again, not that they never show up for you, but they just may not be as natural for you. And so that was probably one of my, I mean, it sounds kind of silly, maybe but one of my big learnings was another one that was a little bit more pivotal for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:05

I think the strengths piece is what you had, what you would said, is a really normal reaction. I heard you say, "I had strengths envy", and that we found over the years is incredibly normal, because our strengths, in the truest form, particularly our signature strengths, are simply representative of who we are. And it's so intertwined with who you are, it's hard to recognize that these are actually really wonderful things that add so much value to other people or in a variety of different ways because it feels inseparable. So our strengths are, we often look at them, it seems like, and we're like well, that's not that valuable. Like, "can I have another one please instead of this?" So I just wanted to acknowledge that that is a really, really normal reaction. And to the point where, like I've found over the years, sometimes people will get angry for a little while, like, "this is it?" Yeah, and I can definitely understand and appreciate that too, because it feels like it should be magical. And it is. But just not in the ways that most people feel like it's going to be necessarily. So here's what I'm leading to a question for you, how did you start to leverage the knowledge about your strengths in a new or different way? How did it become valuable to you? What did that look like?

Jenn Bloomhuff 30:41

I mean, it was a little bit of finding it within myself a little bit and kind of allowing myself to be kind of proud of those strengths, which I know sounds really ridiculous. I know a little bit of, yeah, a little bit of that came from the outside where they give you that context of like, "Here's how I would describe you", and maybe they're using different words, then exactly, but are all lines in those buckets, right. But I think…

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:07

You can just see the patterns.

Jenn Bloomhuff 31:08

They start to see the patterns.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:10

That external validation.

Jenn Bloomhuff 31:12

Yeah. And so there was a little bit of external validation, I won't lie for that. But I would say a lot of it was just me, kind of having that self realization, and really kind of accepting, like, wow, these have shown up for me. And I think, again, it was like, I leave with, like, my relationship skills. And so some of those key skills have really been at the core of actually every single career change I made. And when you kind of sit back and you think about it, it's also at the core of a lot of the reasons why I was very successful in many of the roles that I was in, and I leaned on that a lot, and so, or I should say, utilize that a lot. And so I think it gives you, again, so much of this is like perspective, and kind of resetting some of those narratives that, I don't know, somewhere along the line, just like way back when I was like, I don't want to go into business, well, I didn't even have the context of what that meant. And then you're realizing you're just kind of shutting out certain opportunities for you, because you're kind of just relying on maybe a narrative that just isn't serving you anymore, or just doesn't make sense. And so I think once you can kind of cut some of that clutter, and you really leaned into it, and kind of, again, coming out of it like being proud of having those strengths or leaning into those certain strengths, it really does, I think just give you a different sense of confidence and kind of flow and things start to progress well, at least it felt that way for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:39

Very cool. Tell me a little bit about what you get to do now, and then how that aligns with what you wanted.

Jenn Bloomhuff 32:50

So my current role is a national account director. And I'm supporting the same market that I previously held a market development role in. So that was like a really nice synergy. Because I wasn't, you know, I'm pulling forward all of the things that I've learned over the last four years to support me in the business and my current role. But now I feel like I get to solve our customers' problems. So you know, I'm looking to help them really solve problems that they have today, so they can do what they do best. And they're just going to be kind of utilizing our products that our company sells to kind of help enable them to do that. A lot of what we do is to support public health. And so that's a big part too, is to be able to kind of deliver that for the world in a way. That's a really big scale or grand scale. But my little way through my work is really meaningful to me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:49

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address– scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like, and the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:41

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 34:47

I thought that's what leadership is, you know, if you need me, I'm there. After about six weeks, I thought, "I can't do this. I can't be available to you guys around the clock the whole time because it will absolutely burn me out."

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:59

I think we can all agree that our society has a hard time setting boundaries when it comes to work. Whether it's responding to emails as they come into our inbox no matter what hour it is, or agreeing to meetings after our established working hours. Today's technology makes it almost too easy to think we have to always be on. In fact, the science now backs up what we already know to be true. A recent study from the University of Illinois proves that this lack of boundary control directly leads to more stress and quicker burnout. But even though we all know this is true, why is it that we still struggle so badly to hold our boundaries?

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:00

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Jenna Bias 00:01

In this job market, and in today's day and age with just how innovative people are, like you have to do something different if you want to get to where you want to be.

Introduction 00:15

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:40

Imagine you open your email, and there in your inbox is a message from your ideal organization telling you about an open role they think you would be great for. After a well deserved celebratory dance break, of course, obviously, then you can pat yourself on the back because you made that happen. Okay, this might seem a little far fetched and seem sort of out there. But this could be your reality. Just months from now, there are ways to engineer situations to become the perfect candidate for your dream organization and then build relationships that get on the hiring managers outreach lists. All this, kind of, your reality. But you have to be willing to do things drastically different in order to stand out.

Jenna Bias 01:28

I think they're a little bit more lenient on what things are willing to give up in hiring a candidate, because I'm exemplifying so much else in staying consistent with applying, building these relationships, and staying committed to the company. I think those things, like, speak volume. And so I think they knew that I was a good enough fit even without maybe some of those key bullet points on the application because of the actions I was doing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:56

That's Jenna Bias. Jenna is an RN who had worked as a bedside nurse for her entire career. When she began to reach the point of burnout, she knew that in order to find fulfillment in her career, she needed to switch industries. Jenna began really digging into what she wanted and needed out of her next career and narrowed down our search to just a handful of companies that she was really excited about. She then went above and beyond in her attempts to build relationships with people at her top target organization. You'll hear her talking about the strategy of using loom– a video messaging tool to reach out to multiple people at this company, including the CEO. Her persistence and determination ultimately got her out of bedside nursing and into a role with her ideal company. Jenna does an awesome job explaining all of the steps she took, the tactics she used, and how she got herself in front of this organization. Here she is going back to her original interest in the health and wellness industry.

Jenna Bias 02:56

I got my first degree in nutrition, and I really enjoyed it. Like I was your typical, like, nerd. I really enjoyed my classes. I loved working on group projects. And I think what it boiled down to at that time was the content, I was really interested in it. But then it came time to utilize that degree for a career and I was really stumped as most 22 year olds are. I kind of wrapped my brain, you know, I wanted to make a decision that was "stable", and that led me to nursing. So after my degree in nutrition, I got a second degree in nursing. And looking back, I think science we're all there, but it was not a good choice for me. Because contrary to my time studying nutrition at Cal Poly, I did not enjoy the content. No, I wouldn't say dreaded studying, but you know, just the joy wasn't there, how it was with nutrition. But I kind of ignored the red flags, continued on and ended up being a nurse. And of course, as I'm sure everyone can guess, that kind of misalignment continued into my career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:08

Yeah. Where did you start to recognize and pay attention to those red flags? Where did you start to first learn that maybe this isn't quite right for me?

Jenna Bias 04:18

Yeah, I think for a long time I chalked it up to, like, situation. So for my first nursing job, fresh out of nursing school, I was working in an emergency department. I was working 12 hour shifts. I was working the night shift and I had an hour-long commute. So just to like put that into perspective, I would leave for work at 5:30pm, get to work around 6:30, get ready, work the 12 hour shift till 7am, give report, drive home at 7:30am, shower, go to bed from like 9am to 4pm and then do it all over. So I recognized early on that it was not sustainable regardless of if I loved the work or not, I'll get to that in a bit, but just the situational aspect of it. But at the time, I was a new grad nurse just kind of doing what I thought I needed to do to get my foot in the door. And so then fast forward, when I got my second nursing job, it was a hospital closer to home, I was working eight hour shifts, I was working days, I liked my co-workers. So a lot of those key pieces had changed for me. So here, I thought this was gonna make a big difference for me. I actually remember my husband when I got the job, saying something along the lines of like, "Oh, this is great. Like, I feel like you'll probably be in this job with this hospital for a long time, because of all the situational aspects." But I soon realized that the work was the same. And so that level of unhappiness was the same. For me, it wasn't about the logistics, like I didn't care if I was working long hours. Yes, not having a long commute was nice. But for me, the work was, not only not filling my cup but it was like draining my cup, like draining. So I think it took a few jobs for me to realize, "okay, it's not the situation, it's the work." And just kind of coming to terms with that, and getting over the barrier of making the decision to finally leave this career, even though I spent so much time, effort and money to get in here.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:24

Once you've made the decision that you're going to transition, what did it look like for you to decide where you wanted to focus your time and energy? What did that look like?

Jenna Bias 06:36

Yeah, that part was tough, too. I remember telling Phillip, my coach, in the beginning that... He asked, you know, "what's some, like a piece of advice to me, that I can use along the way to kind of keep you on track or like bring you back in, you know, if I ever feel like we're getting off the right path?" And I told him, I was like, "I love a lot of things, I have a lot of interest, I tend to be a somewhat, like, indecisive person." And then I gave him the example of like, when I go to a restaurant, like, I always like to try new things. And there's so much that looks good. But a lot of times, I pick something and I'm like, "Oh man, this wasn't, like, as good as I thought." And so I told Phillip, I was like, "just remind me to like, just pick the cheeseburger." And what that meant to me was basically like, pick something that I'm rooted with, that I know is always going to be something that I'm passionate about, and bring me back to like, what aligns with me rather than kind of getting lost in all these possibilities. So that really helps because I felt like when I was leaving nursing that there was so many possibilities, it was a little bit overwhelming. And I didn't know how to hone in on exactly where it is I wanted to go. Which I'm sure it's probably... I know, there's some, kind of, probably two types of people in the career change path, like, one, where they want to leave their career and they know exactly where they want to go. And for me, I knew like wholeheartedly, I wanted to leave, but I didn't know where I wanted to go. And I think that probably is a big barrier for people leaving initially too. Because, oh, not only do I want to leave my career, but I don't have a plan of where I'm going next. Like that's a hard pill to swallow. So, for me, just kind of going back to my roots, you know, with the whole, I've always been interested in nutrition, always been interested in health and wellness, how can I take that forward and get specific on what I want to do in my career, that helped me a lot.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:36

I'm curious what made that so helpful? And why do you think that that worked and jived with you?

Jenna Bias 08:41

Yeah, totally. I think it's two parts. The first part is, I got so lost in all the possibilities of different career types. I didn't know which one was going to be a good fit for me. And it wasn't until we kind of took the title, I guess, the career title off the table, that I finally started to get some clarity. So I realized it wasn't so much important of, like, what my next career title was going to be. But it was more important for me what I wanted in a company. So I got really specific about that. I knew I wanted to work still within the health space. I always loved, like more of the functional medicine side compared to the conventional medicine world that I was working in, in the hospital. I wanted a company that was having a big impact on people, that was like making a difference for the better. That was a big thing for me was, yes, I was working in a hospital setting and critical to helping people but it was a bit of a broken system. And there's much like a revolving door kind of analogy with the hospital. So moving forward, I really wanted a company that you know had a truly positive impact on people. I was really specific on the type of culture I wanted to be in. Some ideals but not deal breakers were types of schedule. I, you know, was kind of intrigued by this whole work from home, where you looked with COVID and I like the flexibility of it. And I really wanted a big thing for me was autonomy and my role. As a nurse, you're kind of binded by the red tape of a hospital and it dictates your day. I really wanted a role where I could kind of lead myself and have responsibilities that I took care of on my own. So none of those things point to one role, right? But you could, theoretically, find companies that really emphasize those things or prioritize those things. And when I did that, and got, you know, there's several other things that I got really specific about, it ultimately led me to like three companies. I think I had a list of, I think, eight companies that were possibilities. But really only three that I wanted to entertain the idea of looking into, and only one that really, like, spoke to me, seems so weird. When I found the company that I work for now, I just had this feeling like, "oh my gosh, this is the company I'm gonna work for next", which is strange, because I never... I'm not really like a, love at first sight or like, blanking on the word. But you know what I mean? Like, I'm not that type of person where I think things just happen like that. So it was kind of interesting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:20

As you started investigating this and other organizations, what caused you to realize that all the work that you had done with your ideal career profile, or to define what it is that you actually wanted in your next opportunity and beyond, what caused you to believe that "no, this is actually, in fact, where I want to be and what I'm looking for."?

Jenna Bias 11:44

Yeah, actually, I never thought of this before, but kind of reminded me when I was talking about how I felt when I was a college student studying nutrition. That's how I felt, like, when I found this company, I mean, I did a ton of research on them, I would read up about the CEO, and I read about their trajectory. And I would look at their website and just kind of look at what they had going on most recently, and it was interesting to me. Like, I felt like I did when I was back studying nutrition. So I think that's how a job should feel like. If you're really interested in it, you're just going to perform better, be more engaged. And that's how I was even just learning about the company, let alone working for them. So I think that was a big green flag for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:31

That's interesting. And it's interesting that you're picking that up now, in hindsight too, that it was the same type of feelings. One of the things that we do, behind the scenes as coaches, where we're often trained to hone in on those types of recreations of the feelings, if you will. So where have you found that type of joy that you're looking for? Where have you found that type of environment or situation in the past? Okay, now, how do we identify where you can experience that in the future? And then how can we use that as a tool for measurement to indicate that you're heading in the right direction? And it's not a perfect science by any means, but it sounds like that's part of what you're keying in on.

Jenna Bias 13:15

Yeah. And I'm glad you point that out. Because I think at the time that I was creating my company outreach list, I knew that my company was my number one. But it wasn't until Phillip was like, "Well, why are we..." I was creating this to-do list of how I was going to reach out to several companies at once. And he's like, "Well, no'', he's like, "Clearly, you feel some type of way about this company, like, let's hone in, let's focus here, like, I want you to put your efforts here." And he was the one that really, I think, more than I did at the time saw my draw to this company. And in my mind, I was like, "Well, no, I can't, like, put all my eggs in one basket. And I can't, you know, that might be unproductive if I'm just reaching out to one company." And I realized throughout this process, that's one of the big takeaways for me was, you gotta get me on job boards, applying to all these different jobs, but it's never going to work because you're not fully presenting yourself for maybe the job that you really do want. And I think once I recognize that if I really dedicated myself to this, what I wanted, then I could get it if I navigated the right way and communicated myself in the right way. So yeah, you're right. I think Phillip kind of picked up on that. It really is what kind of led me to them even more, because before I was kind of trying to like spread myself thin across the board of all companies

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:42

It's very much against conventional wisdom. Like I heard you throw a couple of clips out there, like don't put all your eggs in one basket and two or three more. But if you go after what you want, and you're focusing most of your energy on that, it becomes a lot more possible and more likely that you're going to get to what you want, which of course, sounds logical, you know, after the fact and when you say it that way. But when you're experiencing it, and you're going through that, you've got all the emotions, and everything else that is sort of stopping you from, you know, heading towards where you actually want to go. So I appreciate you sharing that. Also, one of the things that I know was a part of your story, is you did a phenomenal job, not just putting effort towards this particular organization that you had decided that, "Hey, this is it. This is where I want to be. And I want to figure out if that can happen first." But also, you had a great reach out strategy. Tell me a little bit about that. What prompted that? What was the situation? And tell me a little bit about what you did in the nitty gritty to be able to begin building relationships at this organization?

Jenna Bias 15:52

Yeah, I think the first part, which I kind of touched on, was like just doing a ton of research. And that honestly came from, like, just my natural interest in the company. But I think in the long term: A, it helped me realize, yes, this is where I want to be. And B, it just helped me foster those relationships down the road. Because I was genuinely interested in these people that I was talking to, I knew about them, I knew about the company. So that just helped be more candid down the line, because I didn't feel like I was, like, meeting strangers.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:22

So when you say research, you were researching the individuals in the organization. How did you go about that research?

Jenna Bias 16:29

Yeah, first, it just started out as company research. And then it kind of led to, you know, who my CEO is... So the company is technically a startup. They've been around for a couple years now. But because they're a startup kind of based in San Francisco in a very, what's the word, they're in the functional medicine space, right. So it's a very upcoming topic that's on the rise. So because of that, Rupa has been mentioned on several other podcasts, my CEO has been on several other podcasts. So just one step of research led to another and I found myself just learning a lot about the company that way. And then furthermore, when I decided to apply to certain positions, like I mentioned, in their application process, they often would have a little blurb about the hiring manager there. They're very transparent about who would be hiring. And so, and I almost feel like, it's almost like an invitation. Like, we're telling you, "Hey, I'm the person doing the hiring here. I'm introducing myself to you via the application." I almost felt like it would be a disservice to not then go introduce myself like they're almost asking you what I felt and so and I think for me, that made it a little less uncomfortable, just kind of like, cold emailing, cold reaching out. But I kept it light, I kind of echoed their casual on this, which, for me, was more comfortable than, you know, you're typically taught to be like…

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:51

"Dear so and so. I found your company. Well, I was searching on LinkedIn. And I..."

Jenna Bias 17:56

Exactly. Yeah, so that made it a little bit more comfortable. So as far as reaching out, like, via LinkedIn, or email, that wasn't super challenging, it almost like I said, seemed invited. But then I did kind of take it to the next step and created a few loom videos to just kind of further introduce myself, but further expressed my interest, like face to face, because I mean, you can say so much in an email, but I feel like until you hear someone out and like, see their genuine like expression, I feel like that goes so much further. And at the end of the day, lots of people are sending emails. So I feel like if you can create a little video and kind of put a face to the name, I think, for me that ended up being, like, priceless.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:40

Well, it was not perfect for every single situation. But in your situation, I think it was highly effective. Because, one, as you said, you can put a face to the name, which creates a more personal type of approach. It also, in your case, it was a casual company already, like that's how they operate, you had already done the research to indicate that that wasn't just a thing that they did on their website, like they operate this way, right. So in your reach out, if you're modeling that in the same tone, it strategically feels to them like you fit and more importantly, you've already done the work yourself to realize that that's what you wanted. So you're simply answering their call to help them understand why you're a good fit in ways that they don't even necessarily... it's not like on a resume or anything like that. It just feels like that.

Jenna Bias 19:32

I think too, I didn't mention this, but the fear that goes along with it is like, oh, the potential of them not responding which; A, I realize now it really doesn't matter. They get so much influx of information. It's like, who cares if they don't respond. But for me, my CEO did end up acknowledging my video and just sent me, like, a simple email back, telling me good luck on the interview process. And from there, I ended up applying, I think four different times through a few different roles, and every step of the way, I just shot her an email updating her on my journey. And she responded to every single email, not being like, nothing, like, extraordinary, but just the response in itself was like, to me, again, just exemplified, "This is a company I want to work for. Here's this busy CEO taking time out of her day to just shoot me a quick email acknowledging the work that I'm putting in to try and be a part of her organization." And then, yeah, as far as applying to multiple roles, it just came down to, I knew this was the company I wanted to work for. So again, rather than spreading myself thin across different companies, I was like, "No, I'm just going to focus here." And even though I actually got denied initially for my current role, obviously, in the end, it ended up paying off when I applied the second time, and I think a large part of that was because I had already touched base with the hiring manager. We did already kind of have that rapport, and yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:00

Okay, so let's dig into that for just a second because I think that's important. First of all, I will say most people in the world after they get turned down, are not going to go back and they're not going to continue to work at it. Also, one of the things that we see over and over again is, that is something that is relatively normal. I cannot tell you, well, actually, for people who've listened to more than one episode, you may have already heard that story a few times along the way, because it does happen relatively frequently. So kudos to you for continuing to persist. And also, what did that look like? Take me through, I think you said you applied for... how many did you interview for? What did the process look like?

Jenna Bias 21:44

Yeah, so one of them that I applied for, initially, to be frank, I knew was not a, not it wasn't a good fit, I was just like, highly under qualified. It didn't so much... I think there's a lot of situations where you can pull from your past work, and kind of more fit to fit new roles. Sure. In this situation, when I tried to do that, it was a stretch, to say the least. But I gave it a go. And that was one of the situations where I did create a limb for that hiring manager, as well as their recruiter, and I sent her a LinkedIn message just introducing myself. And she was very sweet in her response and transparent in the fact that, you know, I probably wasn't going to have what they were looking for in that role. But again, it was the response for me of how they handled it that didn't turn me away, because they were so inviting, encouraging. Not everyone's gonna be a good fit for every role, so I didn't take it personally. Late, fast forward, I applied to one other role that I never actually heard back from, because I think what happened is I applied to my current role. And at that point, I had made contact with the recruiter. So I went through the recruiter, like a phone screening, and then got to the first round interview with the hiring manager, which went great. I really connected and talked about the role, and it was something that I thought it'd be, like, a really good fit. And then I didn't make it to the next two phases of the interview. So then at that point, we exchanged some emails, again, when I got the denial email, I asked her just for positive feedback, you know, "What can I do differently? Any recommendations moving forward?" And she sent me, like, a novel, which was super awesome. I could tell she took, like, time out her day to give me feedback. Who am I going to be working at her company, and she doesn't really even know me. But I think that's because when we had our interview, like we were able to connect, even though I didn't end up being the pick for the role that time, she could still, you know, connect with me on a personal level, and we still learn a lot about each other. So to me that first interview was still a win because we foster, like, a relationship.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:51

Yeah, we can dig into that for just a second. Because I think that's a frustration for so many people, like, "hey, I'll ask for feedback." And I won't get anything. But you got a novel worth of feedback, because, not by accident, and yes, this is an amazing organization. And clearly, they value people who are interested in them, but also they don't have infinite amounts of time too. So the reason this worked is, you'd already started to establish some kind of beginning relationship with the CEO. I'm sure those emails were probably forwarded, I don't know, but probably they were forwarded over to recruiting or maybe they were BCC'd or something else along those lines. You had continuous touchpoints all along the way. Maybe they talk behind the scenes, maybe they didn't. But then you had, as you said, began to build a connection during that interview, and you had focused on that. So you now have the beginnings of relationships. So now, it's not just some random candidate, it asked me for feedback. It is this person that I know and had a great time with. And that's totally different than when you go to make and ask than just some random person that's out there. So I wanted to take a moment and just break that down because you did a really nice job allowing it to get to that point so that it worked when you went and asked for feedback.

Jenna Bias 25:08

Yeah. I think a big thing for me, and I'm sure it's probably for other people as well, is because I had all those touch points, and institutions of like asking for feedback, no big thing for me was like, kind of a fear component. I almost felt like, "oh my gosh, am I reaching out too much?" You said, oh, they're probably talking behind the scenes, like in a good way. But in my mind, I was like, man, are they like, "Oh, that Jenna girl, she applied again."

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:34

Never hire that one.

Jenna Bias 25:36

Get rid of her. And of course, that's just your, like, limiting beliefs that I'm sure everyone has, but no. So then after I reached out, got that feedback, it was, you know, great feedback, I wasn't, obviously, I was disappointed. But like you said, a lot of people when they get denied are kind of turned off and, like, maybe would like, go the other way. But I was just more intrigued, and I was more like on board, I sent like a really nice email back. And I told her, I was like, "I'm gonna continue to like, watch your job board. But if a spot opens up in the future, like, please do consider me." And so sure enough, I did watch their job board here and there. And I think it was two or three months after I initially applied for that role that I happened to notice that the role was up again. And so I just reached out directly to the hiring manager before submitting an application just to kind of express my interest, and right away she was like, "Oh yeah, like you were actually on my list of people to reach out to this week. I definitely would want you to reapply. If you could just go ahead and submit an application, like, go through the process of interviewing again." So I did that. And then obviously, this time, I made it through the entire interview process, which was that initial interview with the hiring manager again, I did a mock demo. So a big part of my job is doing demos for my company. So they just, you know, it's kind of a, make sure you can do the job kind of thing. And then I had an interview with my manager's manager. And then the last kind of piece was a call with the CEO. So that was the steps.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:09

What was different? Do you know now what was different or what took place behind the scenes where you said, "No, we're not proceeding further in the process the first time", but then the second time, allowed you... I know from being behind the scenes in many different organizations, all different industries, there's a million different things that can come up that might create that situation. But I'm curious, do you now know, what caused that or what was happening behind the scenes?

Jenna Bias 27:36

Yeah, and I think this is valuable for people who are, like, "switching industries", which I was. A big, like, limiting belief for me was, you know, why... and especially in this industry, I was like, "why would they want to hire a nurse? Like, my job is so different." And on paper, I'm missing some key things that they're looking for. And I think to an extent that is true, like there’s certain things that they are hiring for in their new candidate. And I think the first time around, they found that candidate who had all those things, things that I, you know, no matter how long of a nurse I was, I was never going to have because they were totally out of my realm. But the second time around, I think they're a little bit more lenient on what things are willing to give up in hiring a candidate, because I'm exemplifying so much else in staying consistent with applying, building these relationships, staying committed to the company. I think those things, like, speak volume. And so I think they knew that I was a good enough fit even without maybe some of those key bullet points on the application, because of the actions I was doing. So yeah, I think to answer your question, in a more concise way, the first time around, there was a perfect candidate who met all the bullet points that I was never going to have, because of my experience unless I went and got additional experience. And the second time around, I think, because of my actions, and they knew me, they were willing to kind of look beyond some of those bullet points that I missed because of what I had done leading up to that second interview.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:10

I think that is super cool. There is, well, it's no longer there. We had a section of the Happen To Your Career book, actually, that when I first wrote it, I think it was version three or four, that was all about how to engineer the situation to become the perfect candidate that when a position actually opens up, then you're on the list for that hiring manager. And we ended up scrapping it for the final version of the book. But I think the concept is super true to what you experienced, even though, you know, they found somebody initially that they thought was going to be the right fit and they were ready to go down that road, you had taken all of these little touch points, all of these different situations to where you literally were on their list when they opened it up again, and they were going to call you if you didn't contact them, which is pretty cool. Nicely done. So what advice would you give to someone who's in the same type of situation? Where if go back aways here, and it may be they're in the place where they've now decided they've done the hardest part, as you said, where they've decided, okay, I know that I need to make a change and now they're ready to make a change, and they're ready to find what is truly right for them.

Jenna Bias 30:34

Yeah, I think a few things. Like I kind of touched on this before, but getting specific, weather, I mean, like I said, I think for some people getting specific on your role could help. But for me getting specific on the company is what helps most but either way, I think getting specific is what's going to give you clarity, and it's going to allow you to get to the place where I was putting all my eggs in one basket, because I knew it was the right fit, rather than posting up on LinkedIn job boards and indeed, and just putting your resume out there for places like that has minimal effect, and I think people do that, because they're not really sure what they want. They're not specific. So they're just kind of like hoping something's gonna stick. And it's just not a very effective approach. But I think once you get specific, you're able to kind of hone in on how you can be effective in getting the role you want. And then I think, which is funny coming for me, because I'm not typically this type of person, but being different, getting outside of your comfort zone and kind of thinking outside the box, I had only ever applied to nursing jobs. That was my only career before this. And it's very cut and dry. It's very much, "Do you have the licensing? Do you live in the area? Do you have all the educational components?" It's not about creating relationships, it's not about putting yourself out there. So I didn't know that this whole side of the application process existed and was so impactful, but it is. It's like when you go on LinkedIn, or on job boards, and you look at a job and you see, "oh 300 applicants", for me, that was always really off putting, because I'm just like, "Okay, I'm just one person. I'm just one application." which you are. You are just one application. So if all you're doing is submitting your application, you're probably not gonna get it, just the odds are not in your favor, right? So I think, in this job market, and in today's day and age with just how, like, innovative people are, like, you have to do something different if you want to get to where you want to be.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:36

Maybe through this process, you have now become the type of person who is thinking differently and behaving differently. Who knows?

Jenna Bias 32:45

Not me, that's true.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:49

I think it's such a great point, though, because I think that that's like a dividing line for people when you get 300 applicants in a single role. And shoot, we've had as many as 800 applicants in a single role here at Happen To Your Career, like we're a relatively small organization. And arguably not that many people in the world have heard about us compared to, like, an Apple or a Facebook or something else, Google. And that's a lot of applicants. And that can steer people two ways down the fork in the road where, why even try because the odds are against me, or as you said, recognizing that if there's 800 people there, and you need to do something drastically different to be able to stand out, get attention, be able to help them understand why it might be worth their time. So that's super cool that you recognize that and that you've learned that and that maybe you're now on that way to becoming that type of person in the future.

Jenna Bias 33:45

I mean, I will say I think a large part of learning was, you know, working with my coach Phillip, and I think that's where, like, having a coach plays a great role of kind of bouncing those ideas off somebody, and then just kind of building you up. I remember so many times, I would, like, come to Phillip with my ideas, or like what I had written up and he's like, "Jenna, you know what to do. I'm literally just here to tell you to do it. Like to give you the confidence boost, to give you like, you know, just another set of eyes to say like, "yes, that's a good idea." So I feel like a lot of times just having that person to like soundboard you is really helpful to kind of, like, get you in the right direction.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:21

Even though I've been coaching for 20 plus years now, it still feels strange to me, to some degree, that we all need that, like, that sounding board in one way or another. And that can literally be the difference between happening and reality versus just stating a thought that maybe this is the right thing for me to do. And I suspect it might be. So that's, on one hand, even with a coach it still requires that you're taking the steps forward. So really, really nice job. You've done amazing work. And I think that sometimes on these episodes, it's hard to represent in a 30 or 45 minute time period, just all of the work and the ups and downs and everything else that went into making a many month career change into something that arguably didn't fully have the resume experience for or whatever else it might be.

Jenna Bias 35:20

Yeah, I mean, I never would have got to where I am if I only did a month of work. It took several months. And I was, what's the word, I was a little hesitant or like put off by the initial timelines and things. And I was like, "Oh well, I'm a really hard worker, like, I will put in the work and hopefully it'll happen sooner." But some things are out of your control. So it's like I could do all of the modules, and I could do the legwork of digging into my strengths and getting specific about what I wanted in a career and in a company, but I couldn't create the role and I couldn't create the company's timeline for me, right? It's a two ended spectrum. So it's like, I was ready, but they needed to be ready too. And for my current situation, they weren't ready for me for six months. So I just feel like you know, if you go into it, yes, work hard and be persistent. But know that you can't control the timeline.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:21

Hey, something I want to let you know, the seemingly impossible career change stories that you hear on the podcast, are actually from people just like you who are listening to this podcast and decided to take action and have a conversation with our team. If you want to implement what you heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. Here's what I would suggest, just take your phone right now, open it up, go to your email app, and type me an email, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team and you can have a conversation with us. We'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and support you in your situation. So open that up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line to Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:15

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 37:21

I think they were kind of shocked that, you know, this is what I'm looking for, and not like I was just a person begging for the job or answering all the questions the way that they wanted. I was just like, "This is what I'm looking for in a position, in a company, in a company culture." And I honestly think that was what sealed it for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:44

One of the biggest obstacles when making a career change to more meaningful work is lack of time and energy. How do you find the time to make a change if you have a full time job, a partner, children a social life, if you're like many people at this stage of their career, and you're trying to juggle all of these commitments on top of making a career change, the solution is not only allocating the appropriate time and resources, but also setting the other people in your life up for success so that they can support you. At HTYC, we do this by using what we call a "master schedule". This tool forces you to intentionally decide what your average week looks like and needs to look like so that you can successfully focus on career change. Think about it as a budget for your time. It also gives you the language and visuals to explain the support you'll need to your partner.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:41

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Steph Strine 00:01

I was always doing that when I was not at work. When I would leave work, I would either be going to teach a class or going to take the class, my life very much revolved around fitness.

Introduction 00:12

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:42

We all have a place where we feel comfortable and natural interactions, where we're excited about life, and happy to be ourselves. But what if you could feel like that all the time, even when you're working? I've heard people say, "I feel like I have to be a different person at work." Or, "I feel like I'm living two different lives." Many times through my years working in HR operations and interacting with clients at HTYC, I've heard this over and over again. Well, it turns out work doesn't have to be this way. To thrive at work, you must first figure out where you feel most like yourself, and where you can be more of who you want to become.

Steph Strine 01:24

I have a lot of friends that have pivoted out of corporate jobs. And you know, they now do yoga retreats, or they do instructing full time. And I see these like actual physical examples of people doing what I wanted to do. And I'm like, "Well, I can't do that."

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:39

That's Steph Strine. Steph had known for almost nine years that she felt most alive and most like herself in fitness studios. But it never allowed herself to believe that she could actually build a career in fitness. Steph is a former Marine Corps officer. And when she got out of the service, she was hired with Amazon where she quickly moved up the ranks. And as you can imagine, her life had always been very structured. So it took a lot for her to step off the traditional career path and go after what she truly wanted. So you're gonna hear my conversation with Steph and I want you to pay attention to how she articulates her realization that she could make a living doing what she most loves. And how she completely upended her life, or at least felt like upended in it, to go after that exact thing that she wants. Steph's story is inspiring, not only because she got outside her comfort zone and broke the mold on what her life had always been, but now that she knows she's on the right track, she's continuing to blaze a path toward what we call her unicorn role. Those roles that you didn't think were possible. Here's Steph talking about her initial effort to carve her own path by joining the Navy.

Steph Strine 02:56

I grew up in Cornwall, New York, which is in the Hudson Valley area. So it's about an hour north of New York City. And I went to the Naval Academy, I have a very big military family, both my parents went to West Point. And so I shocked everyone when I went to the Naval Academy. But yeah, I really... I'm grateful for the experience that I had. I was an active duty marine for about seven and a half years and then transitioned out and did operations at Amazon for my first, almost two years, out of the military. But a lot of my focus in my career has always been about people, I was an administrative officer. So I did a lot of, like, the behind the scenes stuff that, you know, to get the Marines out the door, the stuff that would keep them up, and if they didn't get their paycheck and stuff like that. So my focus has really always been on people. And then to kind of couple that with, I played soccer growing up like since I was five. I was playing competitive soccer. And so I was always like, I go and I played soccer at the Naval Academy. And fitness was always like a passion of mine, but I never really thought that I could do anything with it. So a little bit more of that later, but…

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:06

Yeah, and I really want to dig into that because fitness has not always been there as a theme for you, it seems like, but now it's a much more central theme. And we'll talk about how you transition into that in a little bit. But I'm really curious, what made you, aside from having a military family and everything, what made you decide to go into the Naval Academy?

Steph Strine 04:32

I made a list. I'm very organized and I like a set of, like, structures. So the military for me was something that was very familiar, but why the Naval Academy? Definitely the soccer piece like at the time. That soccer team was performing super well. I really resonated with, like, the team when I went and visited and hung out with the girls on the team. I made a list, like, growing up of what I was looking for in a college, and Annapolis actually hit more than West Point. And my mom still works at West Point too. So I was like, I just kind of want to do my own thing. And so that was kind of the why behind, I would say, like, soccer first. And then it was, I wanted to carve my own path, which I can see now is like, very, very, it's a theme that's like, woven throughout a lot of my career story.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:19

I could see that. What did your family think when you first told them, "you know, I'm thinking Annapolis."

Steph Strine 05:24

So yeah, it was blasted in like the newspapers where I grew up, it was like strike picks and navy, not army. So my mom was devastated, to say the least. But she got over it. She has, like, more Navy apparel than I do now. But you know, I mean, they're excited. I mean, at the end of the day, like it was a great school. And yeah, so I mean, would they have loved to have another West Point graduate? Sure. But there's plenty of my family. And so I happily go to the Navy, not the other side. So…

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:54

That's amazing. And it sounded like that really was a better fit for you.

Steph Strine 06:00

Yeah, I was talking about this today with a friend. And I used to be like, it's still kind of trickles in, but like people pleasing. And I think the easier choice would have been to, like, go to West Point and just follow in my parents footsteps, but I just knew that it was the right choice for me. And yeah, I couldn't imagine life any different, I wouldn't have been able to be a Marine Corps officer, it would have been a little bit more challenging too at West Point, you know, it wouldn't have unfolded the way that it did.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:27

When I heard you say just a few minutes ago that you were in for about seven and a half years or so, what caused you to realize it was time to go time to make a change?

Steph Strine 06:41

A couple of things. Along this period of years that I was in the Marine Corps, I gotten sober. And I had something that happened personally to me that I wouldn't be able to say in the active duty any longer. So that was one thing. And then after I finished rehab, I kind of just had a new perspective on life, like most things when you do something incredibly crazy like that, and flip your entire life around. And so I knew it was time because I wasn't like, I wasn't invested in what we were doing. And that's also been a theme. And my story is like, I just knew that there were people that were more passionate about it, and they were going to charge the next wave of whatever the Marine Corps was to develop into. And not just, it wasn't my time anymore. And I knew that it would also be unsettling to me to stay in an environment that I knew I couldn't grow in because of the things that have led me up to getting sober. And like I'm not ashamed of it at all to why it happened. And for me, it's happened in a very amazing, beautiful way. But I just also knew that, like, there's life outside of the military as well. And if I can stay sober, then I can do anything.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:53

How has going through that type of experience, and then going through rehab, how has that changed your perspective on life?

Steph Strine 08:02

It was very humbling. I mean, as someone that, like I mentioned, is very list oriented. And like, that was not on my list whatsoever. It was not there at all. So it was very unexpected. I think the biggest thing that I learned was like life is very precious, I'm very fortunate to, like, kind of be alive today. And I have a lot of friends that unfortunately passed away from substance abuse or overdose. And like, that was kind of the biggest kicker for me to leave Amazon too, was like, I have one life to live. And if I don't do this, I'm going to regret it for the rest of my life no matter what way it happens. So I think that was one of the biggest things I learned was just how precious life is and then humility at the end of the day. Like, personally, for me, I believe that we all kind of want the same things, like to be supported, to be protected, to be loved and to feel cared for in some sort of capacity. And like that's what I've found in my sobriety is the complete opposite of addiction is connection. And those were the two things that I think I left that experience with that I take with me still to this day.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:08

That's awesome. That is amazing, actually. And I'm really curious, because you mentioned that some of the same reasons that you left the military also are some of the same reasons that you left Amazon, or at least some of the realizations that you know, pretty much have one life. And I'm curious, what some of the differences were too. So let's start out, let's go back for a little bit here and tell me a little bit about when you transitioned out of the military, how did you end up at Amazon?

Steph Strine 09:41

Yeah, so it was... I had all these, as per usual, I had a plan. I knew exactly when I could get out. I was like I'm going to start an internship with a skill bridge like most military transitioning officers or enlisted do and then the pandemic happened. And I was like, "I do not want to do a virtual internship", like, that's just not for me. I was in San Diego at the time. I think I was like a little bit over a year and a half sober. So it's still kind of like navigating, like this new life that I was living. And I got out in September of 2020. And I wanted to stay in San Diego. San Diego was opening and closing nonstop. And so, Amazon kind of came about in a very strange way, like I was unemployed for about four months, which was very, very challenging for me to kind of deal with for someone that was like, I'm a transitioning military officer, I went to service academy, like I'm a female, I'm also minority like, but it was also the pandemic, and we had no idea what we're doing, right? And then on top of that, trying to stay in San Diego, which is one of the nicest places to live. I made it quite challenging to transition out with those things that I was looking for. All of you said, I also was limiting myself, like I said, I did human resources in the military. And so I was just gravitating towards, like, I'm gonna go to these HR specialist roles. And I'm going to look at these, like HRBP roles, just because like, that's how my brain thought that I could only exist within this box. And I was getting my masters around that time, that transition to virtual as well. And someone had just been like, hop on an Amazon webinar and just like, see what positions are offering whatever. And I was like, yeah, okay, like, I could never work at Amazon. I've never been like a data driven gal. I've never loved, like, math or science or anything. And so I just didn't really think there was a place for me at Amazon. But, you know, there's a military pathways program there. They look for transitioning veterans within their first year that are about to have their master's degree. And so seems like a pretty good fit at the time for someone that was also in dire need of income. And yeah, I went for it. I was like, you know what, if anything, like it'll just be a learning experience and see what happens. I'll learn a lot about all the orders that I buy off at Amazon. And that's how it kind of came about. And then, so I started in January of 2021. So I had about like four and a half months leading up to me starting my first job out of the military.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:14

So tell me about then, when you got to Amazon, I heard you say just a minute ago that, "I never thought I would be the type of person who would go to Amazon necessarily not data driven, not interested in math, not interested in science, necessarily". And in some ways, the polar opposite of how you viewed yourself at the time. So what parts of that once you actually got to Amazon, what were the parts that actually surprisingly worth it for you? And then what were the parts that you discovered, were definitely not a fit? Tell me a little bit about both sides.

Steph Strine 12:48

So, first couple of six months at Amazon, I absolutely loved it. I was having the best time, I had a great boss, he taught me so much about the business. And the cool thing about the Pathways Program is that you get additional guidance from seasoned leaders at Amazon. And so I really enjoyed that time that I got to have with my direct manager because I was able to, like, very much ask the questions that maybe I was not afraid, but like simple questions that an Amazon manager should know. But as someone that's completely new, had no idea. And so I would say, like, that piece was something that I really, really enjoyed in the beginning was the ability to make mistakes and not be micromanaged by that boss specifically. And then it's very structured. I mean, when you think about it, I'm sure like most people, like, I order a lot off Amazon. And so, like, it is nonstop. We have a 24 hour or they have a 24 hour operation and customer fulfillment. And so it is a well churn machine that is operating all times. And that comes with a lot of steaks. So they look for people that can be there for 12 hours at a time, and kind of put their life on pause during the holidays, like I didn't work... I mean, I don't know, I worked every single holiday for the past two years. Luckily, I left before the peak of last year, but like that was a huge piece of that I was not used to, I mean, we got holidays off all the time in the military. And so that piece was a little bit challenging. But you know, at the end of the day, what I found was that like, there's people that work in the Amazon facilities and that until they make it completely automated, it's going to be a people driven business. And for me, like I mentioned, like, people are my passion. And so that leadership piece came to me very easily. I was, like, very good at building relationships, like, cross collaborating with different stakeholders in the fulfillment center that I was working at the time. I was able to help promote and grow, not only like Amazon Associates, but also the managers that reported to me. So that piece for me was really easy. The piece that was really challenging was towards the end, because I started working nights. I moved from a fulfillment center to a delivery station. And for us to start getting vans on the road, we had to start working at like midnight.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:13

So then, tell me a little bit about what led up to this... let's call it deciding that fitness is going to play a bigger part in your life and your work.

Steph Strine 15:25

I got my 200 hour yoga certification when I was stationed in Okinawa, Japan. For those that have been in Okinawa, Japan, you know, it's, like, very small, I didn't know what it was when I first got there. And so when I got there, I was like, "Oh my God..." There's a lot to do, but I was 23 and super naive. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I have nothing to do. My life sucks." And I decided to get my 200 hour yoga certification from someone that was teaching on base, it's the best thing I ever did. And I started to teach when I was a second lieutenant on base. I taught at a local CrossFit gym in Okinawa. And then when I got back to San Diego in 2016, I started to teach at core power yoga. And I was always doing that when I was not at work. When I would leave work, I would either be going to teach a class, or going to take a class. My life very much revolves around fitness. And that was the case for about almost, let's say, like, eight years. It's almost been nine years since I got certified as a yoga instructor. And then got a couple additional certifications throughout. I was also leading, you know, there's a lot of different training that they do. And so I loved it. I mean, it was just something that became a big part of my life. It was like, I just realized, after a long time, of kind of like downplaying my own skills and talents, like, I had this self limiting belief that like, I could never make money doing fitness full time. Like I always, I think it was something that was just kind of like pitch to me growing up is that like, people don't make money in the fitness world or, you know, you can't do that full time, you won't be making the amount of money that you will, which is true, actually, that is true. But at the time, I was making really great money and hated waking up every single day. I found a lot of joy in connecting with clients during class after class, like, it was just that there was a moment where I was just like, "why couldn't I do this all the time?" And that's also something that coaching prompted for me, you know, it's like, I have a lot of friends that have pivoted out of corporate jobs, and they now do yoga retreats, or they do instructing full time. And I see these like actual physical examples of people doing what I wanted to do. And I'm like, "Oh, I can't do that." And as soon as I got introduced to this program that you offered, and kind of just had like a moment of clarity of like, life is very precious and very short, I just knew that I had to go for it. And once I decide on something, I just kind of get the wheels going. And it's actually pretty quite insane how quickly I started to roll once I, like, made that decision of like, "okay, I'm gonna go for this."

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:13

I think that's really fascinating to me because even in the beginning of our conversation, there's this clear pattern of once you decide on something, then it starts to happen pretty quickly for you. And that seems to be the catalyst. So here's what I'm curious about, then, like it took a long time for you to move through those, I think you called them limiting beliefs earlier. But when you were saying, "Hey, I had these real examples of people doing this– creating a career in fitness." And you're like, "I can't do that." What was causing you to think that at that time? Do you recall?

Steph Strine 18:58

A lot of fear. A lot of fear of failing. That's always been a theme for me is like, what if I'm not successful in this? And there's an exercise that you have us do in the bootcamp that I mean, quite frankly, like, changed my life, kind of getting emotional about it, talking about it, but like, reaching out to friends and family about like, this is how it introduced stuff. And almost every single person said things that, like, I just hadn't really internalized or I thought that was like, "Yeah, whatever I do that", like I bring people together, or I inspire people to make changes in their lives since like... Not that I wasn't doing that in the military or at Amazon, because in a sense, I feel like I did, I brought that element. But like, most of the time, I was doing that in the fitness room. And I just had this overwhelming sense of my body. I was like, I am not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Like I need to go do this now, even if I don't know what it looks like. And as someone that likes to know what things look like, it was a lot of fear. I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna make money. I don't know where am I gonna go. But it was a lot of just like, I really needed to see it. And I read it. And I got it from a lot of people a lot. And I was like, "I can't deny this from people that I trust and value", like even mentors in the military, were saying, like, "A fitness professional", you know, and I was like, "what?" I mean, like, I mean, I guess but it was just... I needed to see it to believe it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:36

It's kind of a... it's a really funny thing, at least from my perspective over the years, because that type of exercise, and just a little bit backstory for, if you're listening to this, and the exercise we're talking about is one that we regularly use with clients where you might reach out to say, anywhere from 7 to 25 different people that represent a different portions of your world, you know, work, friends, family, all kinds of different things. And you can tell me how you felt about this Steph, but a lot of people are, there's a little bit of trepidation, there's a little bit of fear, because it sort of feels like you're putting yourself out there. And what are these people gonna say, and all these things. So that's something that we see really normally. But also, I cannot tell you the number I've been told, probably over 1000 times now, no joke, probably over 1000 times by different people that we've worked with, that exercise was so valuable, and changed how they thought about themselves. And it sounds like that was the case for you, too. So how did you feel about that before, first of all?

Steph Strine 21:44

Before, I mean, All of you say, I mean, I definitely send it to the right people.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:53

So here's what's really interesting is like, we're asking people to say what are the really positive things about you. So in hindsight, it's like, well, what am I scared of? Like I'm asking for positive feedback. But when you're actually doing it, it doesn't feel that way at all, right?

Steph Strine 22:08

Yeah, I think more so. And it's something that I've had to do, I'm still kind of learning and growing, but like, I've outgrown, I think some of the things that were taught to me growing up, and so I think a lot of... I had a lot of, I'm a former people pleaser. And so like, I very much valued what my mom and my dad and close family members would think about me pivoting to this, but it was, like, a unanimous, like, you're really good at this. And you need to go do this in a very, like, flowery, nice, like, positive way, not just like, "what are you doing with your life?" It was unanimously like you bring value to this piece of my life. And the majority is through connection and movement. And after? Yeah, it was, like I mentioned, this just overwhelming sense of, I have a lot of people that believe in me, and why don't I believe in myself. And to kind of go back to what you said, of like, once I make a decision, things start going, something that helped me with my coach was literally looking back on things like, "Okay, well, you did this, and you didn't know what it's gonna be like, but it turned out really well. And you got your masters or whatever. Or you didn't know you were doing at Amazon as an operations manager. And turns out, you're one of the top performers at your site. Like, if you look back at your life stuff, like a lot of things that you've done and accomplished have turned out really great. So like not to say that this isn't going to be one of those, but like, why not you?" And that was the question that my coach proposed to me. And I was just like, "wow", I love that session. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, why not? Why can't I go do this?" I couldn't come up with any reason why.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:56

Was it at that point in time where you realized that you had to make movement when you couldn't come up with any reason why or did it still take a while longer?

Steph Strine 24:04

Nope, it didn't take that much longer. Like I started moving things very quickly. I started working with Happen To Your Career in October of last year. And by the beginning of November, I put in my resignation. As soon as I knew that, that was not my path to be going down any longer, like, I knew that I had to start making changes where I wasn't going to go for it like. And so, with not a lot of visibility onto what it was going to look like, I just started to make, like, controllable changes. So the first was, like, to let them know that this is not working for me anymore. And I was going to leave, small things like getting out of my lease and stuff like that. And I don't know, I started moving very quickly. Luckily for me, and one of my dearest friends that helped me get sober, she reminded me of this is that, like, I have a cool opportunity because I don't have a family, and not to like shame on myself or anything, but like I have the ability to go make these decisions. And I have two dogs that will come with me. It's really hard to have dogs in New York City though, I am learning that now. I don't have to check in with someone else. I'm like, I can make that decision as someone that single. And so I had this, maybe down the road, I wouldn't have had that opportunity if I met someone or I had kids or what, life would be different. And so I was like, I have to go do this now with what I got. And so I started to make those, like, changes pretty quickly. And I was in New York in the beginning of December. So it was about like 60 days, and I moved out of my place in Atlanta, and was in my new apartment in New York.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:50

That's amazing.

Steph Strine 25:51

Some call it crazy, but it is amazing to me. Like two months, I did a lot in two months. But I would have stayed if I didn't go.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:04

I think here's what is, we'll call it interesting. For me, what I've observed over the years is that those things that we all, or people call crazy, are often things that are not normal. And what is normal is for people to stay in roles and jobs and work situations that really just don't align with what they want, and really are not ever going to be what they actually want. And so what I've learned from that is that if people are calling you crazy, it's probably a good sign that you're leaning into something that is great for you. So kudos to you, because although not everybody in the world will understand it, I think you've done some really amazing work. Can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing right now? And also what the future looks like and what you anticipate you will evolve to as well?

Steph Strine 27:01

Yeah. No, I definitely agree. I think crazy is such a relative term. What I absolutely love doing, and I'm really stoked about that. But right now, I am an assistant studio manager at a SoulCycle on the Upper East Side. I'm also teaching yoga at a couple of studios, one on the Upper East Side. And then coming back to core power yoga. However, and I've been very transparent with the team here about it is like, I realized in my last month at SoulCycle that I think I was kind of selling myself short or kind of I see in this role I see myself like relying on those like old patterns of like, the managerial stuff, which is important, don't get me wrong, because the studio cannot run without the behind the scenes stuff that goes on. But like I know my life's purpose is to be instructing and in front of clients, whether that's on yoga mats, whether that's on a treadmill, I learned that this last week, I auditioned for SoulCycle. And I was like, This is what I'm supposed to be doing. And I left there after like two hours of biking, after auditions, and I was like, so tired but I couldn't stop smiling. Like I don't leave, you know, I didn't leave Amazon that way. I didn't leave my Marine Corps job that way. And I'm not really leaving my assistant city manager job that way right now. So I know that this is just a step in the right direction. New York is really small in the fitness world. So creating those connections period is a great way to just, like, meet people. But what the future holds. I've been doing a lot of auditioning, I have a lot of like instructor roles that are kind of on the horizon right now. And then in the future, I was supposed to be getting my 300 hour yoga certification right now, I was doing a little bit too much, and it ended up just not working out. So I'm actually going to India in November with one of my mentors who introduced me to yoga, another full circle moment. So like, I think the biggest thing for me now, like what the future looks like is like, I'm painting it, I'm creating it. I can also like, change it whenever I want to, I'm not stuck in a place where I don't know. It's quite freeing, but for someone that struggles with a lack of structure at times, I have to create that for myself. And so I try and do that with my dogs. They're very routine oriented. I try and time for myself whether that's like a workout or maybe it's just, like, going to get my nails done or something. I mean, life looks very different now that I live in New York. Very small space, definitely different budget, you know, and that's been interesting to navigate as someone that didn't really have to be so meticulous on that before but I'm making it work and I've been here now for like almost three months. And so hopefully here shortly, I'll just be instructing full time. I don't know where and what capacity, but definitely like, in that career profile, it was like overbearingly, you know, just visible that I need to be doing something that's instructing base. And that's like something I'm invested in. And so that's why I know right now that like, this is just kind of like a stepping stone. It's not my forever job. It's helping me to make ends meet so that I can do the next best step. And so that's definitely a growth for me, because I think I looked at this as like, you know, I don't want to let people down if I'm leaving, it's like, no, like, this is my life and I'm going to do what I want to do. And I know that I want to do fitness, instructing full time. And so it's actually been really empowering to know that, like, to make these decisions on my behalf and not just settle for something because it's giving me a paycheck.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:56

I think one of the really fun things about your set of experiences and your story is that it's still rapidly developing. And I think that that is awesome, because a lot of times when people will listen to the Happen To Your Career podcast, and we'll share a story, sometimes it feels like there's some level of finality when they've accepted, like one opportunity or something else. And what gets lost sometimes in a 35 minute episode, is that no, the stuff is ongoing developing. And the thing that I loved and do love about your story is you're actively leaning into this more and more and more, and you're getting more, like, you're getting those moments that sometimes people go their entire lifetime without where you're like, are leaving and can't stop smiling. And I think that the more that you can lean into that, the more you find more of those as well, or understanding a greater level of detail about what you need in the future. And I think the really cool thing about where you're at right now is you're getting a lot of doses of that which you can then incorporate into, here's what the next evolution and the next evolution and the next after evolution after that looks like. So I really, really appreciate you sharing all of that, and everything that comes with it. That is super cool. And one of the things that I wanted to ask you, for other people who are in a similar situation, whether they have transitioned out of the military, or whether they are recognizing that they need to change in one way or another. And they're back at that initial stage where, like, "okay, I need to do something different." What advice would you give that person who's right there?

Steph Strine 32:48

I would say, trust your intuition. I mean, if you're kind of “woowoo’ like me, you get that or trust your gut or, like, you know, what's best for you. And I think, like, that can be as simple as, like, "I know I want to be in this location", and maybe locations really important to you with family or whatever. Or like I know I want to be, you know, IT-driven, or I need to be in that space. Like, I knew what was best for me for a really long time and I just was too afraid to say like, I'm gonna go for it. And I think, especially in the military, a lot of times, or it's been my experience, so I'll speak about my experience, is that a lot of the things that I brought to the table were kind of not muted, but kind of assumed to be like, everyone has those, like, everyone knows how to talk to people. And everyone knows how to have difficult conversations, and everyone knows how to de-escalate. Like, not all people actually know how to do that. So a lot of like those social skills and like those are actually really powerful tools to have. And especially in the military is, like, just know that you bring a lot of value to the table. And to not let yourself get, like, pigeonholed into a specific, whether it be sales or operations is like, yes, we can do those things, but we can also do many, many, many other things that we don't even know exist. And so that would be my advice, follow your intuition. And then also like, you bring a lot to the table, no matter what.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:30

Hey, if you've been thinking about making a change for a while now, and you don't really know how to best take the first step or get started, here's what I would suggest. Just open your email app on your phone right now. And I'm going to give you my personal email address, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. Tell me a little bit about your situation and I'll connect you with the right person on our team where we can figure out the very best way that we can help you, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com drop me an email.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:01

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 35:07

And I know that the discomfort of the job that doesn't fit right now will be replaced by the discomfort of not having a job at all. That's just reality.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:19

If you're at the point of burnout, where you're so stressed, you feel like you can't function normally, or you're no longer able to have a life outside of work or maybe just feel completely unaligned with your work, I don't even know if that's a word– unaligned, not aligned or misaligned. And you figured out something has to change. You've probably found yourself wondering, "What if I just quit? What if I just walked in tomorrow and said, I've had enough. Here's my notice." Wouldn't that be nice? Well, maybe. But maybe not. It turns out there's so many considerations when deciding if you should quit your job without another lined up. And that's exactly what we're talking about today. We're going to go over many of the different questions that we have found are helpful to ask yourself to determine is it a good idea? Is it a Good Idea to quit your job without something else lined up? We're also going to discuss alternatives to quitting that most people have never even heard of or never consider.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:18

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Julia Caban 00:01

I started thinking about and picturing the future and I couldn't picture anything. And that really scared me. And it scared me enough to saying, "Okay, it's time to reach out."

Introduction 00:19

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:44

Okay, what happens when you went through school, and then college, and then you sort of always knew what the next step would be. But now, you're at a point in your career when you can't see the next step anymore. And it turns into a special kind of torture. It can seem like a trivial thing, but it's actually a very real and jarring experience when you're used to knowing what is coming for you, what is the next step and always being able to imagine your future. Turns out, it's now up to you to figure out what to do next. But luckily, you're listening to the perfect podcast to help you figure that out.

Julia Caban 01:20

So there were a ton of kind of veteran transition programs. And that's really what I focused on. And they're all... truly, I do believe amazing resources. But the crux of the issue is still the same, that if you don't know what you want to do, which I absolutely didn't, then you're going to still end up with the job that you don't want.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:40

That's Julia Caban. Julia had committed to serving the US Navy when she graduated from college, and the military is great at letting you know what your next steps will be. And it's easy to envision your future as a service member. But when Julia decided to transition out of the military, she struggled with the lack of structure that she'd always known and a lack of resources on what career she should move into. On top of that, when she began looking for jobs in the corporate world, she struggled to relate her military experience to the job postings. And she found herself considering jobs well below her military pay, because she believed that ongoing myth that transitioning service members have to take a massive pay cut. I want you to pay attention to how Julia got really granular with job descriptions and relating them to her military experience. This gave her the confidence to go after the roles that she really wanted. Also to feel qualified in interviews and ask for the pay that she truly deserved and was qualified for. All right, here's Julia going back to her decision to join the Navy.

Julia Caban 02:50

I grew up in Northern Virginia, right outside Washington, DC. And for college, I went to University of Virginia. And I do not come from a military family at all, and I never even really considered going into the military. My parents kind of told me that if I wanted to go out of state preschool, which I originally wanted to do so, I kind of had to figure out how to pay for it. And a family friend who was in the Navy said, "You know, I think you'd be great for this and it'll get you through college, you'll have a job and it'll open a lot of doors for you. And you'll also be able to, obviously, contribute to this greater mission." And I kind of said, "Sure that sounds good." I was 17 and probably didn't know what I was getting myself into. But I received an ROTC scholarship, ended up staying in state for school. And pretty much from day one of college, I knew that I would be entering the Navy as soon as I graduated for at least five years. And kind of the overarching role that I did in the Navy, I was what they call a surface warfare officer. And they always kind of refer to that as the jack of all trades, because you have the operational side, which is ship driving, learning the combat and engineering systems on the ship. And then you have an administrative job, which changes all the time. And it's really... you get to do so many different things. And that was one thing I always really liked as well was just the constant variety.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:19

So what prompted you to decide to get out after five years? Tell me a little bit about that transition.

Julia Caban 04:27

Yeah, so any ROTC contract and then minimum amount of time you have to serve is five years. And you have to decide at least about a year in advance before the end of your contract if you're going to try and do something differently. And for me, it came down to a few different factors, like, most jobs in the military, there's kind of one path there's not really multiple different routes you can take and I had seen what my path would look like and it was not something I wanted to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:01

What would you have been doing at that point?

Julia Caban 05:04

So the ultimate goal for swell is what they call it, the commando ship. And basically, I would have gone into two to three years of shore duty, which is... you have a slower pace of life, things are a little bit more relaxed. But then after that, which you can't just sign on for a few more years, you kind of have to do the whole nine, and you're working 14 to 18 hour a day, you have absolutely no semblance of a life, and you don't really get much say over the actual job you'll be doing. It's all very arbitrary, more or less. And I just kind of I would see that as a junior officer. And I saw what the life of those leaders looked like. And I just could not picture myself doing that whatsoever.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:53

So when you transitioned out then, what was the most difficult part of that transition?

Julia Caban 06:02

I'd say two things. The first is that I genuinely had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do. And I don't know why I thought this, but I was truly convinced that I was just going to wake up one day and 'no', and that it was just going to dawn on me, and then I'd be able to make some moves. And...

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:21

You're not the only one, Julia. I think that's how many of us... that's what I thought. That's honestly the way I thought at one point in my life that it was going to work. So you're not alone.

Julia Caban 06:30

Right. No matter. And then the second fun thing that we all experienced was, I left the Navy in May of 2020. And so the pandemic had just started, and I was terrified about finding a job. So I think all of those factors just really made it a very challenging, a much more challenging transition than I expected.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:54

So when you started making that transition, where were you focusing your time and attention? How did that look for you at that time?

Julia Caban 07:08

So there are a ton of kind of veteran transition programs. And that's really what I focused on. And they're all truly I do believe amazing resources. But the crux of the issue is still the same, that if you don't know what you want to do, which I absolutely didn't, then you're going to still end up with a job that you don't want, which is exactly what happened to me. I was presented a job opportunity and before I even accepted the job, it wasn't really in line with any of my needs. But I just felt kind of desperate and felt like nothing else was going to come up, especially with the pandemic. And I figured, well, the best way to find a job is to have a job. So I kind of just took whatever I could at that point.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:56

Do you still feel the same way? Like if you're looking back at that now, do you feel like that was the right move for you at the time? Or would you have gone back and done things differently with? I mean, it's easy to say hindsight is 2020 because it is, right? But how do you look at that time period now and those decisions?

Julia Caban 08:16

I definitely wish I could have done things differently. One thing that Phillip really helped me work on was thinking about what I actually want, and not what I don't want, which, all I was focused on was I really wanted to do something completely different from the military without like, without totally being able to say 'why'. It wasn't about what drew me to that job, it's what drew me away from the military, and you're not this new thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:48

They are not the same thing– what you're running from versus what you're running to, have a tendency to be very, very different sometimes. And it's not always the opposite too. A lot of times we think, "well, it's the opposite of that." But that's not always the case. So what did that look like for you, when you took that role, I heard you say "it didn't line up with some of your needs", what's a couple of examples of those needs that it wasn't quite fitting?

Julia Caban 09:17

So at the time, I still feel this way, given my current life situation, I did not feel like a remote role would be the best for me. We were going into the pandemic, my husband was going on deployment, the idea of kind of being alone in my house all day, for however long on end, just did not sit with me. I love working with people. I love being around people. That's what I did every day in the military. So that was a big one. I'd say the second one was the salary. And I had all of these narratives in my ear when I was transitioning out that expect to take a massive pay cut. And I did take a massive pay cut and I thought "Okay, well, this is what's supposed to happen. So this is okay." And I never even really thought to think that I should shoot for something better, and something more in line with my salary goals, which it's a very hard thing to talk about in. It's very normal in the military, because everybody knows how much everybody makes. But as soon as you're out, it's like a very taboo topic. And I was not used to that at all.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:26

It's very weird in many different ways that it is so taboo. And I'm not sure that it always creates a, I don't know, I'm not sure it creates a healthy environment. But that might be another podcast for another time. But here's what I'm really curious about for you. I heard you say that people tell you just to expect a pay cut. Do you still feel that way? Or do you feel that that is misguided? Tell me just how you think about that now. And what advice would you offer other people transitioning out of the military for how to think about it?

Julia Caban 11:05

I definitely think it is misguided. And I think it speaks to people who have had negative experiences and kind of pass those along, as opposed to what they should be doing, which is seeking to help out the people who are coming after them. And I also think there's another component to that as well, where every person who I've ever known in the military has a giant skill set that is truly, in my opinion, unprecedented. And I think that so many people don't know how to market that skill set and how to talk about it. And I think that's where one of the many contributing factors to why so many transitioning service members take a pay cut is they don't have the knowledge to really define and explain their experience. And it's still something that it's hard for me now to fully explain to people what I did in the military. I've gotten a lot better at it as working through coaching and things like that. But I think that being able to describe the work you actually did in line with a future job that really is at the same level you're at, is very challenging.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:23

So my question then for you is, when you started thinking about this differently, when you started defining what you're running to, what helped you the most move through this in a way that was useful to you to target what you want, but also to help other people understand what you bring? Because, in my opinion, you bring a huge diverse skill set and experience set.

Julia Caban 12:52

Yeah, I think two things. One is, and I feel like so many other transitioning service members would struggle with this as well. But the kind of notion of, "it's okay to be selfish", I truly didn't think that I was allowed to feel like I wanted to be picky. And even when I accepted my first role, which was far from ideal for me, I still kind of felt okay, I just feel so grateful to have a job. And I feel like you know, I wake up every day grateful to be alive, but the bar has to be a little higher than that to really thrive. And I feel like that was one big thing of "okay, how can I give myself permission to be selfish and think about the ideal situation for me?" And then I think the second thing was getting extremely granular with the jobs that are out there. I would, I kind of had an idea of the industry I wanted to go into and I would tell Phillip, "I'm looking at a job description. I don't know what any of these words." And he'd be like, "Okay, Julia. Let's print it out. And we're gonna go word by word. And we're going to translate that into words that make sense for you." And it is a skill to learn how to read a job description, especially coming from a non corporate world. And just really getting to that level of detail was so helpful for me and saying, "Okay, this word means X from my experience, and here's how I can reframe this to say exactly what I'm trying to say and words that other people will understand."

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:37

That is really interesting, first of all, because I heard you say, "I wasn't used to being selfish", and I would say arguably, that what you have done and what you are wanting, actually isn't selfish, but we have a tendency to think that it is that way as a society, but really, I would say it probably falls under getting what you need so that you can serve other people even better, and you probably, I don't know, you can tell me, but I would guess you're probably a much better performer in the roles that you've actually enjoyed, versus the ones that are just taking from you. Is that a fair assessment?

Julia Caban 15:15

Absolutely. And, I think it's that reframe of that mindset that can help people think about their own needs. And not just, "I should be doing this, or I should just feel lucky to have the bare minimum", if that makes sense.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:31

Well I think, I've been searching for a while, actually, for an analogy or a way to, like, reframe that because that whole selfish thing is something that comes up again and again and again. But you said, "Hey, I feel grateful to be alive. But that doesn't necessarily mean I'm anywhere close to thriving", right. And it really is that same situation for, "I feel grateful to have a job" and that part is good. However, being grateful to have a job does not mean that you can't ever want something more in any way whatsoever. So I appreciate you pointing that out. And the thing I wanted to ask you about having been through this type of transition yourself, what would you tell people that want to make a similar transition, how to refocus and get what they might want or need, rather than just leaving it unchecked because it falls into the selfish category?

Julia Caban 16:29

That's a good one. I would, I think, I know it's not a great idea to think about what we don't want in general. But I do think that's a good starting point of, "what is something that maybe I didn't enjoy from my previous experience that I would like to change and to really just own that desire?" And I don't think it's too much. And people are allowed to want the things they want out of something that takes up eight plus hours of their day. And I think that's a really great place to start is where are the gaps between– what I've done and what I would like to be doing. And I think another thing that has really helped me, that Phillip has helped reframe me is, it's not about just the job I want, it's the life that I want to lead. And sometimes you can want a job, but it's not compatible with the life that you want. And you need to be able to distinguish those differences. And I think by keeping the ideal life as the priority, you can find a job that fits within that and not vice versa.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:42

We have so many people that come to us focused on the job aspect. But to your point, the job isn't necessarily that useful, unless you understand what is the type of life that you're trying to build. What does that look like? What is that involved? Who does that involve? How does that work, per se? And if you're building towards that perpetually, it's much easier to see whether something fits into that or steers you away from that. So I appreciate you pointing that out. And what I'm super curious about because you made an initial transition. And it turned out not to be as good of a fit as you'd hoped. Tell me a little bit about what you transitioned to initially in your, we'll call it your, I guess, second career change, because you went from the military into one type of job, left that and then moved into working with Amazon, right, for a while?

Julia Caban 18:38

I did. And this was, I think if I could pick one thing to do differently during my coaching time, this would 100% be it. I sort of had these major compounding factors in my life that I was really not expecting. My husband and I bought a house and two months after I moved into it, he was deployed. But we found out we were moving. So that was kind of a weird factor, unexpected number one. A couple of weeks after that, I lost my job. And then I also was unfortunately going through some pretty serious health issues at the time as well. And I was just feeling extremely lost and we were about to make our move. And I think I was both struggling personally professionally but also with kind of my own identity within that move. And I thought I need to be in a space where I feel kind of safe to be a military spouse and have that accepted and again, I just picked one criteria and ran with that and I knew that company is very supportive of both ex-military and military spouses and I kind of felt "okay, this is a pretty safe bet for me", which it was. Again, did not meet the salary requirements for me. It was really not supportive of the other personal things I had going on in my life. And I ended up with that job pushing myself to this completely unnecessary breaking point that I completely inflicted on myself. And I think if I had, again, looked more holistically and not just one thing, then I could have avoided all that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:21

What prompted you to realize it was time to leave Amazon?

Julia Caban 20:27

I think there was one big thing. And, it's kind of a crappy thing. But it's also, I've had to believe in these signs from the universe. And I went to the doctor, and it was a Tuesday, and he said, "You need to come back in for an unexpected surgery on Friday." And that was not how I pictured that day or that week going. And, but it was a wake up call that I was pushing myself way too far for really no reason. This was not my dream job. This was not where I wanted my life to be going. I just kind of had some identity issues, some pride issues to work out. And that was the universe giving me a wake up call that this was not the path for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:14

I've had many of those experiences over my lifetime. And I have also found that they serve really well as wake up calls. So once you got that wake up call, and went through that set of experiences, which sounds challenging to put it at the very least, what did that cause you to do? Or when did you start taking action or what happened from there?

Julia Caban 21:43

From there, I basically told Philip, "I'm all in, I'm trusting you, I'm not going to settle for my next role. I'm going to give myself the time that I need to kind of physically get past what I'm dealing with in my personal life. And then I want to hit the ground running. And I'm not going to settle for anything less than what I want, even if it takes longer than I want, even if it's hard and frustrating", which it was all of those things, of course, but that was kind of what I decided was– no more settling, because I settled twice. And it did not work out the way I wanted to. And so I think that was... once I committed to that things really started trending up and I started making a ton of progress.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:33

I think what's really interesting that I found in, not just your story, but many of the stories that we share on this podcast, but I've also experienced it too is that, things are going to be... there's always going to be challenges, it's always going to be hard in one way or another. So do you want it to be hard because you are settling for something? Or do you want it to be hard because you're going after what you really actually want? And that's the sort of logic that I keep coming back to year after year after year. Because everybody has challenges in their life, and they look very, very different. And the challenges in something that you really want to be doing, at least I've found are far more palatable, they're better challenges, the better problems, than going after an area that you just really don't want to be in or you've settled for. So has your experience been similar to that? Or how would you describe how you think about it now after settling a couple of times, as you said?

Julia Caban 23:36

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's kind of where I think I'll approach things. Whatever I do moving forward is, it'll always be hard. But the reasons it's hard are completely up to you. And that is, I think just after settling twice, and then not settling and seeing how rewarding that can be, and getting that one 'win' under my belt, it's the... you know, everyone needs like one good 'win' sometimes. And that's how I felt and I thought, "Okay, I can not settle moving forward, I can dream bigger, I can go after even more next time around because I finally realized that it's okay to not settle." And it's funny because I feel like I haven't settled in any other area of my life. And so why would I do so professionally?

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:28

Well, that's interesting. That's kind of fascinating. When did you realize that?

Julia Caban 24:34

Oh, gosh, I don't know. I think probably a month before I got my job that I have now. You just take inventory of the things that are otherwise going on. And I'm always... I'm the pusher in my relationship and in all aspects of my life. I'm always pushing for the best and the next thing and I realized that I can't do that in every single area of my life except for my job. And yeah, it's a different mindset. I feel like when you're kind of at the mercy of somebody else, which you are in any kind of job situation, but that's still not a reason to not push for what you can the best for what you deserve, I guess.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:21

Tell me a little bit about what you do now. What's your title? Tell me a little bit about what your work looks like?

Julia Caban 25:30

Yes, so I'm an Internal Communications and Employee Engagement. And I do a lot of writing, which is by far one of the most favorite aspects of my job. It's something that I knew I had a strong skill set in before starting this, and I really wanted to take into my next job. And then as for employee engagement, it's kind of a mix of things like events, different internal functions that keep people connected to the company, and our overall mission.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:02

Where did you figure out that you wanted to carry writing over into this opportunity?

Julia Caban 26:11

I think once. I think one thing Phillip, once he was able to get it into my head that I needed to stop thinking about the things I don't want, and look back to all of the things that have brought me joy. One thing that I kind of realized that stuck out to me was during my time in the military, I had always wanted to become a public affairs officer, which is kind of their version of a journalist. And unfortunately, it never worked out for me during my time in the military. It's a very competitive field. And I wasn't selected. And I think because of that, I kind of wrote off that whole concept. And that desire never went away. I mean, I literally was trying for four out of my five years in the Navy to do this. And once I kind of realized, "Okay, just because that it didn't work out in that situation, it doesn't mean that desire left." And I was able to really take that knowledge and get really clear on how I wanted my next role to look. And I wanted something in that industry similar to that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:18

That's really cool. One that you realize that. And two, that you now have found that in this latest version of your career. So tell me a little bit about how did... let's get really granular for a little bit here. How did you go from working at Amazon, realizing, "Hey, this is not quite the fit that I'm looking for." and then what were some of the key milestones and steps that had to take place for you to, on the other end of this, except this opportunity that is a much better fit for you?

Julia Caban 27:53

I think, again, one thing that really helped me was all of the job description nitty gritty where I would look at a job that was interesting, and we would go line by line. And I found that when I really took the time to understand what the description was actually saying, 9 times out of 10, I had done something that very much kind of checked that box, especially pursuing being a PIO in the Navy, I had so many side projects I did during my time. And I realized, "I've done this. I've done this. I've done this." And it was one of those things where I realized I have to tell them how my experience correlates to what they're going to ask me to do. It's not their job to decipher that from my resume. It's my job to explain that more clearly. And when I was able to really get to that level of detail and say on my resume and in an interview, "how can I portray that they're asking me to do X in this job, how can I show that I have already done that and I have that skill set?" And that's where it got really down to the nitty gritty and just getting to that level of detail was so helpful and really made all the difference.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:13

What took place from there for you? After you started realizing that, "hey, it's my role", which I think that's a very uncommon realization, unfortunately. And I'd love to change that. So I'm really glad that you pointed out, "hey, it's my job to be able to make sure that I'm communicating clearly how I fit what this organization needs", right? But once you had that realization, once you started getting into the specifics, what happened next that led you towards this role?

Julia Caban 29:41

I feel like that was kind of the beginning of I felt like I kind of had this dead period where I realized that, I was working, I was reaching out, I was applying, and for two weeks absolutely nothing happened and then everything happened all at once. I had zero prospects, zero anything. And then I had four interviews lined up. And speaking of, kind of, the job description concept, while it was great to really pair what I've done to different parts of the job description, I didn't check off every little bullet with the job description. And I used to look at that and think, "Oh my God, I'm so grossly unqualified for these roles." And one interesting story was, I made it all the way through an interview process with this one job, I had four interviews. They had asked for 10 years of experience in this very niche field. And I didn't even have 10 years work experience, but I ended up making it all the way through and I wasn't offered the job because they told me they actually thought I was too senior. So I think also just being able to take the job descriptions with a grain of salt was good. But yeah, once I was able to really get that detail down, I had all of these interviews lined up. And I did tell Phillip, "this is where I feel like I do my best is during interviews. I just wasn't able to get them because I wasn't good at explaining what I've done and how it lines up with this organization's role in their hiring for." And I felt like after that, I really think started to get a lot more in a state of flow, because I do feel like I do pretty well in interviews.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:24

I can see why. You're such a great communicator. And what caused you to realize that you needed or wanted help?

Julia Caban 31:35

So one thing I feel like I'm always doing is I'm always thinking about the next step. I always, I kind of, I guess you could say a daydreamer. I'm always thinking about the future and what I want. And I always picture it very clearly. And I got to a point where I would wrap up my day. And I would spend probably two to three hours on my couch at the end of the day Googling, you know, "how do I figure out the right career for me." And doing that day after day after day, you'd think I'd realized that I don't think I can get there on my own. And it wasn't until, I think all of the... we had our move coming up so many different factors. And I started thinking about and picturing the future and I couldn't picture anything. And that really scared me. And it scared me enough to saying, "Okay, it's time to reach out because I don't have the picture anymore." And that's something I've never been able to not have.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:37

What advice would you give to people that are in that place right now, where they've kind of always known what the next thing might be for them, but now they're questioning that or now they don't necessarily know what that can look like?

Julia Caban 32:52

I would honestly, I mean, tell them to reach out to somebody and ask for help. Because I don't think I really understood how normal it is to have a career coach and how there's a whole reason that your team dedicates their lives to this is because everybody, at some point or another, will find themselves in a similar situation. And it's okay to reach out and ask for help. And I think that, I don't know if I could have figured it out on my own, but even if I did, it would have taken me a long, long time. And time is all we have. So I kind of wanted to learn these lessons and get through that faster. And that would be my biggest advice is, like, have someone reach out to somebody who can help you get really clear, and it's okay to not know, but it's not okay to not do anything about it, I guess. And then I think that, kind of, what I was saying about how I left because I just didn't see the path ahead in the one way to climb the military ladder. And I would just tell anyone to really define success for yourself, because the military has one path to success. And that's how that organization needs to be. That's how it needs to function. But that's not how the real world functions. And whatever is success to you is really all that matters now. So...

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:22

How has your definition of success changed?

Julia Caban 34:28

I use assessment, working all the time, because I worked all the military, and I thought that your whole life needed to be your job. And it wasn't until I realized how much I wanted my identity and my work to be separated that I was able to actually start doing that and I feel now that, you know, my work is obviously a part of what I do but it is not who I am and I think that is a really, for me, that's really important and to carry that through the rest of my life, and I came from a military where your work is your identity. And I know very few people who it's not the case for them in that organization. And I'm just really happy that I was able to kind of say, that's not what success means to me anymore and make a change.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:30

If you've been thinking about making a change for a while now, and you don't really know how to best take the first step, or get started, here's what I would suggest. Just open your email app on your phone right now. And I'm gonna give you my personal email address, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com, just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. Tell me a little bit about your situation and I'll connect you with the right person on our team, where we can figure out the very best way that we can help you, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com, drop me an email.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:01

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Kate Wilkes 36:07

I can walk out of this office at the end of the day with a smile on my face. And I can know exactly which strengths I was living in today to make me feel good and when you know that, you will never settle for less than that, again.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:23

We spent a lot of time talking about working in your strengths on this podcast. But you may have found yourself wondering, why does drinks even matter? I guess it depends. Do you want to even enjoy your work? If so, Gallup has some amazing data that they have gathered from more than 34 million people that strongly suggest that people who have a ridiculously high awareness about themselves are more satisfied with their work and are happier. You might have even taken every assessment, personality test and quiz out there only to find out that you're still in the same place. But in order to do work that you're great at and gets you excited, you have to understand what your strengths mean for you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:10

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Briana Riley 00:01

I was getting more clarity about myself. And then also realizing, "Oh, not everything is for me and that's okay. I can find something that is." And so that was really the biggest transformation as I learned how to say, "No, that's not for me."

Introduction 00:23

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:47

Let me tell you about an exercise that can be a wonderful kickstarter to building a more intentional life and career. It's going to sound super easy. But many people will spend months thinking through it, and deliberating on it. Okay, here it goes. First, I want you to reflect back on all of your career opportunities, roles, jobs, whatever. What's the one thing that you've always enjoyed in every single one of your roles?

Briana Riley 01:16

That's when I started developing this, like, deeper reflection habit of what's going on in my life because I was feeling not so connected. I was feeling very just, like, untethered, and I'm just kind of moving through space and time, right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:32

That's Briana Riley. A career coach and strategist on the Happen To Your Career team. As a career coach, Bri has worked in the city of New York University, and was a senior manager of career services for galvanize. She has made a ton of career changes herself. Actually over a span of 10 plus years, she made the amount of changes that an average person might make in 40 years. Bri also graduated from Rutgers University and went on to receive a master's degree in social work. She's worked in industries and sectors ranging from environmental justice, policy advocacy, youth programming, workforce development, national parks, water quality, multiple universities, nonprofit tech, and even more. Thanks to this really broad range of experiences. Bri has a perspective that many other people don't. When she was feeling like she didn't know what the next right step was for her career, these experiences allowed her to really dig into that exercise I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, and reflect on what she enjoyed in all of her roles. She was also extremely detailed with this exercise and so much so that she built an entire practice around reflection, and actually uses it in her coaching today. She's amazing at helping people get unstuck, center themselves in their career decisions and celebrate their uniqueness. And more importantly, we're really excited to have her as a part of HTYC. I'm very excited for you to get to know Bri. Make sure that you listen when she's discussing that reflection practice that I mentioned, so that you can kick start building a much more intentional life and career for yourself. But here's Bri going all the way back to where it began.

Briana Riley 03:12

I was born and raised in South Jersey, a small town in South Jersey, right outside of Philadelphia, which is where I currently live. So I didn't move very far all the way around. And I grew up in a very, just middle class suburban lifestyle where you follow the script you're given. And I think that's what I did. I did what I was supposed to do. I did really well in school. I went off to college at Rutgers which is what a lot of people in New Jersey do, is to stay in New Jersey for school too. So I stayed in the home state, went to Rutgers and majored in environmental policy. And I think that because I was told to follow the script, I just did. And I did that really well. But it didn't quite... it wasn't the script that I maintained, I eventually throughout the script and created my own. I was majoring in environmental policy in college, because I knew that I cared deeply about the environment that we were in. I was very moved by the climate change issues that we're facing and things like that. And so I wanted to follow that interest that I held. And also it was one of those things where you spend so much time learning something, investing all of this energy into it. And in my head, I thought well, like, could it possibly change directions now? I have to just go with that direction. I've been putting energy into this one path. And so I thought that was what I have to do. That's what you're supposed to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:50

But it's what you're supposed to do, right? You just get one degree in one thing and you just keep doing that until your life ends, basically, right?

Briana Riley 04:59

Exactly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:00

Is that what we're supposed?

Briana Riley 05:01

Yeah. And so I allowed myself to accept that rule that society creates for us, right? And I pursued this opportunity and community development where I was working directly with communities, helping them to improve roadways, or build trails and parks and create spaces around them that they wanted to see for themselves. And, as a part of that work, I was realizing, again, oh, I like the interactions that I'm having with people. I like the conversations that I'm having with them and understanding where they're coming from and what their concerns are, and what their dreams for themselves are. I was really enjoying that part of the conversation. But I couldn't yet connect the dots as to what that meant. I just thought, this is great information that I can use. I wasn't thinking there's something in these one to one interactions that really makes me feel empowered, and is what brings a lot of joy to my life and to my work. I was still wasn't able to quite connect the dots there. I was just thinking, "Yeah, I guess I just really liked people's work. I guess I just really need to let you know, follow that, whatever it is" I want to focus more on people. And I think that's when I got the cue to start moving away from community development from this wider focus and start working on, that's where I made a shift to work on programs that are focused on helping people grow and develop. And that's where I started to get more into that kind of space.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:43

So tell me a little bit about how you were in that first role, you started to recognize this. How did you evolve to the next opportunity?

Briana Riley 06:54

So that's when I started to realize there's something there that maybe I need to tap into more, that's when I started reaching out more to my network to people around me to see what sorts of opportunities were there, you know, who knows of different kinds of work that I could maybe fit into, that I could maybe be a part of. And so that's when I started just asking for help. That's really the next step and was getting a lot of recommendations of, "Oh, you should check this out. You should look into this opportunity. Maybe you would like this kind of work."

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:39

Yeah. Do you remember an example of one of those situations where you were starting to reach out to your network and is there one that stands out for you? What happened during that situation?

Briana Riley 07:50

Yeah, I do. Actually, I was like, I reached out more so in a panic, almost knowing like a crisis was coming. I don't know if I can do this forever, you know that. And that's another, not that you should be looking for something to do forever, right. But I thought that that's what you had to do, is you had to make something forever. And so I reached out because I was feeling "Oh, no, like, I can't do this forever. I don't think this is for me." And so I remember talking to one of my friends and saying, "Hey, I'm feeling a little bit lost" like, opening up and telling them like, "I'm feeling a little bit off balance here. Something doesn't quite add up. Here's what I'm really enjoying. What have you seen? What have you heard?" And this was like other people that were doing slightly different kinds of work in the field. And so I started just asking them more questions about what they're doing and what they're up to, and how did they figure out where they're trying to go and ask them to send anything that they could my way. And so that was one of my closest friends that I went to college with, it's who I reached out to. And she was like, "Yeah, I mean, I also don't know 100% what I'm doing, where I'm going, or that I'm doing the right thing, but here's how I know that I'm happy. And here's what I see in you, and maybe you should try these things." And so that was one of the first times I had a really honest conversation with someone about uncertainty and the fact that there will be that uncertainty and starting to come to terms with, "was that okay?" And of course, like now, I think of course it's okay, of course there's some uncertainty. And it's where I started to see even more like intentionally seek out what others saw in me, because that was helping me to gain the perspective I needed. Sometimes I was too, kind of, focused on like, I'm doing this work and that was it. I couldn't see the bigger picture. And so that's kind of the help that I was asking for.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:56

I think that what you just mentioned, seeking out what others see in you. I've noticed that a lot of times there is, I don't want to call it a resistance. I don't think that's quite the word I'm looking for. But there's definitely a predisposition for some reason or another that we think that we either don't need to do that, or we have apprehensions about that– we, as in like society. And what I think you and I have both seen and working with clients and working in coaching is that, that is so helpful to validate what are actually the most valuable pieces that we bring to the table as individuals, not just in career but in life. And so here's my question for you. The first question is, why do you think that that is so difficult for us sometimes to go and seek out those types of pieces or the seek out perspective about ourselves?

Briana Riley 10:58

That is a great question. I think there's this fear that we all have that asking for help in that way, asking for that perspective, is somehow admitting some sort of failures, somehow admitting that we don't have it all together. And in this society, there's that push to just, "you graduate college you know" you're always...

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:25

You know, you're good forever, right?

Briana Riley 11:27

Good. There's no more development after that, right? Like, you're on the right track. And so I think, especially, I think this gets even harder as you get further and further into your career, that reaching out, there's some sort of, you have to let go some control a little bit, right, you have to kind of admit that there's pieces of it that you don't have together and people are going to share the truth with you, and then you're going to have to see it. And I think people are always worried that that will somehow mean something negative about themselves. And I think there's just this bigger issue of just asking for help is hard, right? Reaching out to people and relying on people is a difficult thing to do. Because we all want to be independently successful. That's, of course, we want to feel that we've earned what we've accomplished so far in life. And so I think that reaching out to people and telling them, "Hey, there's something here that I'm missing is a huge leap of faith." And what people don't see on the other side is that they're going to share some things, like what I found in reaching out to a friend, is that they actually shared some things from my personal life, the strengths I bring into my personal life that I hadn't been able to yet marry over to my professional life. And that was something that was really eye opening to me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:57

Do you remember what those were at the time by any chance?

Briana Riley 13:00

Yeah, it was actually that, in my personal life, I was a bit more assertive and a bit more opinionated, and I wanted to share that with people. I wanted to create space to make sure that my ideas were heard. In my professional life, I was more reserved, I was more listening, I was just waiting, because I didn't value yet what I had to say in that space, and it made me realize that there's room to bring both of those– the listening skills and the sharing together. And people miss the opportunity to connect those two pieces of themselves, which has made me feel way more whole.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:40

Yeah, I know we talked quite a bit on this podcast, this show about the concept of having to be a different person that work for some people and how that feels very disconnected at best. And then at worst, can erode confidence and you can lose a sense of who you are as a person. So I think that that is an incredibly important topic. Actually, we'll probably do a few more entire episodes just on that topic alone. But what I wanted to ask you about is, as you started to get to know yourself as a person, you were having some of these types of conversations with people that you knew or other people, and how did that impact your next step as you're getting to learn more about what your strengths are, as you're getting to learn more about what you felt was good for you in your work, how did that impact your next step? What happened from there?

Briana Riley 14:37

So at that point, I realized... I collected this feedback. I wasn't yet fully... I still was not yet fully there at that one to one people work. I still couldn't quite connect the dots. So you're noticing a pattern here probably. But at that point, I didn't know that it helps me to zero in a little bit more on what I thought I was looking for next, what my heart and my head was telling me. It helps me to get a little bit more focus and a little bit more clarity. And that's when I finally realized, "Oh, I actually can say 'no' to some of these opportunities. Or, I don't have to be open to anything and everything." And that was really what I got from those conversations. I was getting more clarity about myself, and then also realizing, "Oh, like, not everything is for me. And that's okay. I can find something that is." And so that was really the biggest transformation is. I learned how to say, "no, that's not for me" and reached out to connect to the next opportunity.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:54

Do you remember anything that you said 'no' to at the time? Is there any of those that comes back to you or stands out?

Briana Riley 16:02

Yeah. I did. For a very brief time I worked at an organization that does policy advocacy, and I just figured that's probably the next step. Because I'm working with communities, and we're having all these issues, navigating all these different policies, I should work on the other side to help change the policies. So then that helps people. And when I got there, I was like, this immediately is not... It was a step in the wrong direction. Because it actually took me further away from the people that I wanted to work closely with. And so I immediately just, like, I paused and I said, "Actually, I'm going to not pursue this opportunity. I'm going to walk away. I'm going to find something else that brings me closer to actually having relationships with people that I want to support."

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:59

That is super cool. And it also, I think, begs the question for me of, do you feel like you needed to have that experience in one way or another? Or do you feel like you could have had many of the same realizations without that experience? Tell me a little bit about how you think about that now. I know, it's years later and stuff, but...

Briana Riley 17:19

Yeah, I think that, at the time, I was still jumping from whatever just popped up, and I thought, "Oh, that's it." And would move very quickly. I didn't take a lot of time to process it and reflect on it, which I would do now. And so I think that for me, at that time in my life, I had to have that like a little trial period. I had to, like, test it out a little bi. I had to have that to start having those feelings of, "this is uncomfortable", I had to see the other side of what I don't like, right, because up until that point in my career, there had always been the little threads of like pieces of the work that I really enjoy. And so it was really eye opening for me to experience something where I'm not getting anything out of it. It was really important for me to see, "Okay, what happens if I do take this route where it's part of what I'm supposed to do?" And that experience made me even more certain in the direction that I wanted to take longer term.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:31

That is super fun. And I know that on this show we talked a lot about experiments and the benefit of doing experiments. But really, the benefit is the same as what you're describing. Sometimes those don't work out. Sometimes, it is not a great experience. And that's actually really valuable feedback in the scope of things, too. So that's amazing that you did that. What did that leave you to for the next step?

Briana Riley 18:58

So yeah, so that's where I started working more with, like, really dive more deeply into workforce development, where I was supporting a team, and that team was working with the participants that were being directly served.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:19

How would you describe workforce development? I've actually been in a very brief stint in workforce development for a while and then served as a chair. So I feel like I have a good understanding. But I found that nobody understands what that is. How would you describe to people what workforce development is?

Briana Riley 19:35

So I like to describe it as a bit of a bridge. For people, it's building a bridge that helps connect people from where they currently are, to where they could potentially go. And it kind of maps out where their end destination is. It very, kind of clearly tells them, "these are your options. There's option A, B, and C" and workforce development is creating that bridge that helps people build the skills they need to enter either option A, B, or C. And so that's how I kind of think of it and describe it to people. It's that what's missing, and how can we fill those gaps to get you where you're trying to go.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:22

Very cool. So then, as you were getting into that, tell me more about what your role look like and what you connected with, and also, what you didn't connect with as much.

Briana Riley 20:34

So my role, I was supporting the team of people that were working directly with the participants of the program. And so my role was more on the, like, administrative side– I was making sure that all the equipment was ordered, I was making sure all the any, like, organizational changes were communicated out to everyone, I was making sure that the schedule was planned, things like that. I would also be able to hold trainings for people and, you know, have one on one meetings with all the people on my team and, you know, do a whole onboarding experience with all the participants in the program. And I mostly enjoyed those little informal conversations that I had with some of the participants going through the program, about some of the different challenges that they're facing, you know, in the day to day, and helping them figure out how to navigate those challenges and how to overcome and what resources and what support they had around them, helping them to realize that. And the pieces that didn't resonate as much were the more administrative pieces where I was just like, in a spreadsheet, basically, all day. I'm sure everyone can relate, right, to just being on staring at a computer screen all day. I mostly enjoyed the conversations I had with people in that work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:58

Well, I'm starting to get a sense of why eventually you moved towards coaching more and more and more. It's all making sense, right? And I think that, for me, one of the things that stands out about your story so far is that there are all of these little threads that you kept paying attention to. And I think that it's easy for you and I to sit here and say that you were paying attention to those, and you kept moving more and more. And I fully understand that that was at different levels. At first, it was like, "Well, hey, I think maybe there's something here. Let's dive further into that." And then it became slowly, as years went on, more and more intentional. My question is, what advice would you give to folks that are observing, you know, similar threads in one way or another, how might they pay attention to those in a different way than what they are currently? Or how do might they use those as they're thinking about a transition in one way or another, whether it's career or otherwise?

Briana Riley 23:03

Yeah, that is tricky, right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:08

It's kind of like, "it's the question". Right?

Briana Riley 23:11

It is the question. I think that it's easier for us to ignore those little threads, we just think, "Oh, well, that's just work, or that's just, you know, we can write it off so easily as being something else." I, for me, what really worked was starting to just keep track of something somewhere, so I started, like, different forms of journaling. I would write some things down, I would do like a sentence a day. And then I was doing little voice notes to myself of, like, "what did I like about this day?" And I would kind of listen back to it. That's when I started developing this deeper reflection habit of what's going on in my life because I was feeling not so connected. I'm feeling very just untethered. And I'm just kind of moving through space and time, right. And so what I think for people that are feeling like maybe there's something but they're not quite sure is really just trying to reflect each day like, what did you enjoy about the day? And what did you not enjoy? And just keeping track of those trends, or having scheduled conversations with someone where they can share a little bit about that so they can start building that practice of looking internally and checking in with themselves. It wasn't until I was able to really, like, meaningfully check in with myself quite regularly that I could actually see it for the important pattern that it was. Until then, it was just kind of like, "Oh, yeah, this is something that is maybe a byproduct of working but I'm not quite sure, right." So you have to get yourself to just see it from a different perspective. And if you're looking at your past self, it's way easier to notice a trend than it is to be looking today and think, "you know, what's the next step going to look like", it's way easier to analyze your old self and see that change over time.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:12

I think a couple things that you mentioned, I just want to spend a moment on because I think they're so critical is probably the term I would use, especially as it relates to building a more intentional life and career. And you mentioned the idea of reflection. And you gave us some ideas of how you were doing that functionally, like you were leaving the voice, you're creating the voice notes for yourself, and then playing those back at a later time period, and that was helping you reflect and also you were journaling, and you were literally writing down "what did I enjoy about this day, what did I not enjoy about this day." But you also mentioned the idea of building a practice around reflection. And I think that's a really important because it allows you to be able to see, not just what, I don't know, maybe on a day, you were particularly tired or something along those lines, and didn't have that great of a day overall, where many things that that might normally be good, or just okay, might make those, "I don't like this list" on that particular day, but where if you've built a practice of reflection, then you can observe those trends over time, over many days. And then the commonalities that show up are so much easier to pull out. And it sounds like that's part of what you're talking about when you're mentioning that practice of reflection. So two things. One, I would say that that's been really helpful to me and many of our clients too. I'll just share essentially, throughout a couple of ways that you're doing that, I'll share a couple of ways that have worked for me, in addition to that. One, we have this tool that we use with clients, I think I've mentioned it many times on the podcast, the Ideal Career Profile, but my personal version of the ideal career profile started long before this organization. And what I've done is I've kept, I used to just make changes on there as what I wanted and what I needed evolved. But some years ago, I started actually just like crossing it out, and then putting what the new thing was or how it evolved or how I've refined it or whatever, so that I can see those trends and changes over time. But that same concept of carried to other places, too. And sometimes that's shown up on a, like, I have many Google Docs from over the years, where it's just like, "What do I no longer want to be doing?" And then there's like a list that it just add to it day after day, or what are the pieces that I am just having so much fun with, and there's a separate list there. But I think that when you build that over time, like you're talking about into a practice, then it's so much easier to do something with that information, because it's really difficult to be able to be like in our head is, like, "Ah, today sucked. I need to get a new job or whatever." Like all the things that we tell ourselves. So what have you found for yourself in order to make that building a practice easier?

Briana Riley 28:06

I think that it has to be simple, right? I think that it's super easy to, you go online, you look things up, and you're getting so much information, all of one. And a lot of it is super complex or very involved, and you're like, "I want to be just like that, that's where I want to be immediately" right? And almost always starting too complex is what causes people to kind of fall off of it, right? You set these, like, big goals for yourself, if you don't have something that's achievable, you're not going to be able to make your progress towards it. And so the big thing is doing something that is within reach, right? Working with the time that you have. If you're not a big writer, try not to be writing. But if you're someone who, if you don't like to think about, I don't know, work too late before you go to bed, make sure you're carving that time out right after work or sometime before or after dinner so that there's that time that mental break that you can carve into. So it's really learning to meet yourself where you already are and not trying to be this other version of yourself that you hope to work towards in the future. I think that's the biggest piece there around building and practice is making it for you not trying to fit it into something else that's worked for someone else.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:28

One of the things that I have really enjoyed about all my interactions with you is you've made a lot of changes, I would say. You've made the amount of changes that someone might make in a 40 year period, over 10 years. And so I think that's given you such a perspective, but also a large set of experiences very, very fast. And I think, honestly, when I think about you and your experiences that makes you a better coach. And so the thing I wanted to ask you about that, at this point is, why do you keep coming back to coaching? I understand that there's the threads here and the pieces that line up. But why do you do coaching these days? What's keeping you engaged? What do you love about it?

Briana Riley 30:19

People carry a lot of preconceived ideas and schemas about what how the world works, and what we're supposed to be and how we're supposed to be. And I love this work, because we get to really question if that's working for us, and recreate it in our own image, in our own vision for what things can be. And I love that co-creation with people. I love when people realize in themselves that they do have what they need, they do have the pieces of it to begin making the story that they think is just this long distant dream, or maybe in another life. I like creating that with another person and having them see, "Well, there's this other way of living. And it doesn't have to be just what I was told. I can create something else." And so, that's what keeps me really coming back to this work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:22

What's one of your favorite examples of where you've gotten to co-create something with someone else? Tell me a little bit about that situation.

Briana Riley 31:31

Yeah, I was just talking to a friend, but also someone that I used to coach in the past, but now we're just great friends. And in the past, he was feeling that there was just... he had no control. He works in higher education, he felt that there was just not really any control that he had over the direction that things would take. And he just kind of had to jump at the opportunities that came to him as opposed to trying to create the opportunities he wanted to see. And we had some conversations, we had some difficult conversations, because of course, it's not a linear path. There was a lot of discussion and back and forth on it. And we got to a place where we sat down together, and we imagined what would his ideal work environment look like. And what kinds of support would he have? And what kinds of freedoms would he have? And we created this. And then I encouraged him to submit it to his supervisor. And instead of shooting him down, they made the role for him. And that was his next career move. And I love that whole experience because of how excited he was to see that, like, he could contribute something and it could be valued on that other end. And also, I love that experience because it wasn't easy. It wasn't, like, I just said, "Hey, maybe try this." It was a lot of back and forth, it was a lot of uncertainty. There's a lot of pushback, and being able to get from that place to this other side of, "Wow, like someone actually cares what I have to say", that was really such an amazing experience.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:22

That's phenomenal. I love that story. It's also one that... It is, what's the word I'm looking for… I see that same type of story over and over and over again, where we've been able to help someone in a similar situation, define what it is that they want. And whether that's in a role or another area of their life, and then turn that into a reality. But it's still, to this day, many, many years later, it's still, like, really makes me happy that we live in a world where something like that is possible. Yes. It's incredibly difficult, just like you said. And by no means, it's not easy for so many different reasons. It's not just like you sit down and make a list and take it to somebody at some place. And they just make it for you. It is way more complex. And many times it's spread out over many, many, many months. But it's still like that we live in a world where a lot of times that is possible in a variety of different situations. I think that's so cool.

Briana Riley 34:26

Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:34

Hey, something I want to let you know the seemingly impossible career change stories that you hear on the podcast are actually from people just like you who are listening to this podcast and decided to take action and have a conversation with our team. If you want to implement what you heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just take your phone right now. Open it up, go to your email clap and type me an email Scott@happentoyourcareer.com just put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team and you can have a conversation with us. We'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and support you in your situation. So open that up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line to Scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:29

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 35:34

I started thinking about and picturing the future and I couldn't picture anything. And that really scared me. And it scared me enough to say, "Okay, it's time to reach out because I don't have the picture anymore." And that's something I've never been able to not have.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:55

Okay, what happens when you went through school, and then college, and then you sort of always knew what the next step would be. But now, you're at a point in your career when you can't see the next step anymore. And it turns into a special kind of torture. It can seem like a trivial thing, but it's actually a very real and jarring experience when you're used to knowing what is coming for you, what is the next step and always being able to imagine your future. Turns out, it's now up to you to figure out what to do next. But luckily, you're listening to the perfect podcast to help you figure that out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:32

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.