Jenna Bias 00:01

In this job market, and in today's day and age with just how innovative people are, like you have to do something different if you want to get to where you want to be.

Introduction 00:15

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:40

Imagine you open your email, and there in your inbox is a message from your ideal organization telling you about an open role they think you would be great for. After a well deserved celebratory dance break, of course, obviously, then you can pat yourself on the back because you made that happen. Okay, this might seem a little far fetched and seem sort of out there. But this could be your reality. Just months from now, there are ways to engineer situations to become the perfect candidate for your dream organization and then build relationships that get on the hiring managers outreach lists. All this, kind of, your reality. But you have to be willing to do things drastically different in order to stand out.

Jenna Bias 01:28

I think they're a little bit more lenient on what things are willing to give up in hiring a candidate, because I'm exemplifying so much else in staying consistent with applying, building these relationships, and staying committed to the company. I think those things, like, speak volume. And so I think they knew that I was a good enough fit even without maybe some of those key bullet points on the application because of the actions I was doing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:56

That's Jenna Bias. Jenna is an RN who had worked as a bedside nurse for her entire career. When she began to reach the point of burnout, she knew that in order to find fulfillment in her career, she needed to switch industries. Jenna began really digging into what she wanted and needed out of her next career and narrowed down our search to just a handful of companies that she was really excited about. She then went above and beyond in her attempts to build relationships with people at her top target organization. You'll hear her talking about the strategy of using loom– a video messaging tool to reach out to multiple people at this company, including the CEO. Her persistence and determination ultimately got her out of bedside nursing and into a role with her ideal company. Jenna does an awesome job explaining all of the steps she took, the tactics she used, and how she got herself in front of this organization. Here she is going back to her original interest in the health and wellness industry.

Jenna Bias 02:56

I got my first degree in nutrition, and I really enjoyed it. Like I was your typical, like, nerd. I really enjoyed my classes. I loved working on group projects. And I think what it boiled down to at that time was the content, I was really interested in it. But then it came time to utilize that degree for a career and I was really stumped as most 22 year olds are. I kind of wrapped my brain, you know, I wanted to make a decision that was "stable", and that led me to nursing. So after my degree in nutrition, I got a second degree in nursing. And looking back, I think science we're all there, but it was not a good choice for me. Because contrary to my time studying nutrition at Cal Poly, I did not enjoy the content. No, I wouldn't say dreaded studying, but you know, just the joy wasn't there, how it was with nutrition. But I kind of ignored the red flags, continued on and ended up being a nurse. And of course, as I'm sure everyone can guess, that kind of misalignment continued into my career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:08

Yeah. Where did you start to recognize and pay attention to those red flags? Where did you start to first learn that maybe this isn't quite right for me?

Jenna Bias 04:18

Yeah, I think for a long time I chalked it up to, like, situation. So for my first nursing job, fresh out of nursing school, I was working in an emergency department. I was working 12 hour shifts. I was working the night shift and I had an hour-long commute. So just to like put that into perspective, I would leave for work at 5:30pm, get to work around 6:30, get ready, work the 12 hour shift till 7am, give report, drive home at 7:30am, shower, go to bed from like 9am to 4pm and then do it all over. So I recognized early on that it was not sustainable regardless of if I loved the work or not, I'll get to that in a bit, but just the situational aspect of it. But at the time, I was a new grad nurse just kind of doing what I thought I needed to do to get my foot in the door. And so then fast forward, when I got my second nursing job, it was a hospital closer to home, I was working eight hour shifts, I was working days, I liked my co-workers. So a lot of those key pieces had changed for me. So here, I thought this was gonna make a big difference for me. I actually remember my husband when I got the job, saying something along the lines of like, "Oh, this is great. Like, I feel like you'll probably be in this job with this hospital for a long time, because of all the situational aspects." But I soon realized that the work was the same. And so that level of unhappiness was the same. For me, it wasn't about the logistics, like I didn't care if I was working long hours. Yes, not having a long commute was nice. But for me, the work was, not only not filling my cup but it was like draining my cup, like draining. So I think it took a few jobs for me to realize, "okay, it's not the situation, it's the work." And just kind of coming to terms with that, and getting over the barrier of making the decision to finally leave this career, even though I spent so much time, effort and money to get in here.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:24

Once you've made the decision that you're going to transition, what did it look like for you to decide where you wanted to focus your time and energy? What did that look like?

Jenna Bias 06:36

Yeah, that part was tough, too. I remember telling Phillip, my coach, in the beginning that... He asked, you know, "what's some, like a piece of advice to me, that I can use along the way to kind of keep you on track or like bring you back in, you know, if I ever feel like we're getting off the right path?" And I told him, I was like, "I love a lot of things, I have a lot of interest, I tend to be a somewhat, like, indecisive person." And then I gave him the example of like, when I go to a restaurant, like, I always like to try new things. And there's so much that looks good. But a lot of times, I pick something and I'm like, "Oh man, this wasn't, like, as good as I thought." And so I told Phillip, I was like, "just remind me to like, just pick the cheeseburger." And what that meant to me was basically like, pick something that I'm rooted with, that I know is always going to be something that I'm passionate about, and bring me back to like, what aligns with me rather than kind of getting lost in all these possibilities. So that really helps because I felt like when I was leaving nursing that there was so many possibilities, it was a little bit overwhelming. And I didn't know how to hone in on exactly where it is I wanted to go. Which I'm sure it's probably... I know, there's some, kind of, probably two types of people in the career change path, like, one, where they want to leave their career and they know exactly where they want to go. And for me, I knew like wholeheartedly, I wanted to leave, but I didn't know where I wanted to go. And I think that probably is a big barrier for people leaving initially too. Because, oh, not only do I want to leave my career, but I don't have a plan of where I'm going next. Like that's a hard pill to swallow. So, for me, just kind of going back to my roots, you know, with the whole, I've always been interested in nutrition, always been interested in health and wellness, how can I take that forward and get specific on what I want to do in my career, that helped me a lot.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:36

I'm curious what made that so helpful? And why do you think that that worked and jived with you?

Jenna Bias 08:41

Yeah, totally. I think it's two parts. The first part is, I got so lost in all the possibilities of different career types. I didn't know which one was going to be a good fit for me. And it wasn't until we kind of took the title, I guess, the career title off the table, that I finally started to get some clarity. So I realized it wasn't so much important of, like, what my next career title was going to be. But it was more important for me what I wanted in a company. So I got really specific about that. I knew I wanted to work still within the health space. I always loved, like more of the functional medicine side compared to the conventional medicine world that I was working in, in the hospital. I wanted a company that was having a big impact on people, that was like making a difference for the better. That was a big thing for me was, yes, I was working in a hospital setting and critical to helping people but it was a bit of a broken system. And there's much like a revolving door kind of analogy with the hospital. So moving forward, I really wanted a company that you know had a truly positive impact on people. I was really specific on the type of culture I wanted to be in. Some ideals but not deal breakers were types of schedule. I, you know, was kind of intrigued by this whole work from home, where you looked with COVID and I like the flexibility of it. And I really wanted a big thing for me was autonomy and my role. As a nurse, you're kind of binded by the red tape of a hospital and it dictates your day. I really wanted a role where I could kind of lead myself and have responsibilities that I took care of on my own. So none of those things point to one role, right? But you could, theoretically, find companies that really emphasize those things or prioritize those things. And when I did that, and got, you know, there's several other things that I got really specific about, it ultimately led me to like three companies. I think I had a list of, I think, eight companies that were possibilities. But really only three that I wanted to entertain the idea of looking into, and only one that really, like, spoke to me, seems so weird. When I found the company that I work for now, I just had this feeling like, "oh my gosh, this is the company I'm gonna work for next", which is strange, because I never... I'm not really like a, love at first sight or like, blanking on the word. But you know what I mean? Like, I'm not that type of person where I think things just happen like that. So it was kind of interesting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:20

As you started investigating this and other organizations, what caused you to realize that all the work that you had done with your ideal career profile, or to define what it is that you actually wanted in your next opportunity and beyond, what caused you to believe that "no, this is actually, in fact, where I want to be and what I'm looking for."?

Jenna Bias 11:44

Yeah, actually, I never thought of this before, but kind of reminded me when I was talking about how I felt when I was a college student studying nutrition. That's how I felt, like, when I found this company, I mean, I did a ton of research on them, I would read up about the CEO, and I read about their trajectory. And I would look at their website and just kind of look at what they had going on most recently, and it was interesting to me. Like, I felt like I did when I was back studying nutrition. So I think that's how a job should feel like. If you're really interested in it, you're just going to perform better, be more engaged. And that's how I was even just learning about the company, let alone working for them. So I think that was a big green flag for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:31

That's interesting. And it's interesting that you're picking that up now, in hindsight too, that it was the same type of feelings. One of the things that we do, behind the scenes as coaches, where we're often trained to hone in on those types of recreations of the feelings, if you will. So where have you found that type of joy that you're looking for? Where have you found that type of environment or situation in the past? Okay, now, how do we identify where you can experience that in the future? And then how can we use that as a tool for measurement to indicate that you're heading in the right direction? And it's not a perfect science by any means, but it sounds like that's part of what you're keying in on.

Jenna Bias 13:15

Yeah. And I'm glad you point that out. Because I think at the time that I was creating my company outreach list, I knew that my company was my number one. But it wasn't until Phillip was like, "Well, why are we..." I was creating this to-do list of how I was going to reach out to several companies at once. And he's like, "Well, no'', he's like, "Clearly, you feel some type of way about this company, like, let's hone in, let's focus here, like, I want you to put your efforts here." And he was the one that really, I think, more than I did at the time saw my draw to this company. And in my mind, I was like, "Well, no, I can't, like, put all my eggs in one basket. And I can't, you know, that might be unproductive if I'm just reaching out to one company." And I realized throughout this process, that's one of the big takeaways for me was, you gotta get me on job boards, applying to all these different jobs, but it's never going to work because you're not fully presenting yourself for maybe the job that you really do want. And I think once I recognize that if I really dedicated myself to this, what I wanted, then I could get it if I navigated the right way and communicated myself in the right way. So yeah, you're right. I think Phillip kind of picked up on that. It really is what kind of led me to them even more, because before I was kind of trying to like spread myself thin across the board of all companies

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:42

It's very much against conventional wisdom. Like I heard you throw a couple of clips out there, like don't put all your eggs in one basket and two or three more. But if you go after what you want, and you're focusing most of your energy on that, it becomes a lot more possible and more likely that you're going to get to what you want, which of course, sounds logical, you know, after the fact and when you say it that way. But when you're experiencing it, and you're going through that, you've got all the emotions, and everything else that is sort of stopping you from, you know, heading towards where you actually want to go. So I appreciate you sharing that. Also, one of the things that I know was a part of your story, is you did a phenomenal job, not just putting effort towards this particular organization that you had decided that, "Hey, this is it. This is where I want to be. And I want to figure out if that can happen first." But also, you had a great reach out strategy. Tell me a little bit about that. What prompted that? What was the situation? And tell me a little bit about what you did in the nitty gritty to be able to begin building relationships at this organization?

Jenna Bias 15:52

Yeah, I think the first part, which I kind of touched on, was like just doing a ton of research. And that honestly came from, like, just my natural interest in the company. But I think in the long term: A, it helped me realize, yes, this is where I want to be. And B, it just helped me foster those relationships down the road. Because I was genuinely interested in these people that I was talking to, I knew about them, I knew about the company. So that just helped be more candid down the line, because I didn't feel like I was, like, meeting strangers.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:22

So when you say research, you were researching the individuals in the organization. How did you go about that research?

Jenna Bias 16:29

Yeah, first, it just started out as company research. And then it kind of led to, you know, who my CEO is... So the company is technically a startup. They've been around for a couple years now. But because they're a startup kind of based in San Francisco in a very, what's the word, they're in the functional medicine space, right. So it's a very upcoming topic that's on the rise. So because of that, Rupa has been mentioned on several other podcasts, my CEO has been on several other podcasts. So just one step of research led to another and I found myself just learning a lot about the company that way. And then furthermore, when I decided to apply to certain positions, like I mentioned, in their application process, they often would have a little blurb about the hiring manager there. They're very transparent about who would be hiring. And so, and I almost feel like, it's almost like an invitation. Like, we're telling you, "Hey, I'm the person doing the hiring here. I'm introducing myself to you via the application." I almost felt like it would be a disservice to not then go introduce myself like they're almost asking you what I felt and so and I think for me, that made it a little less uncomfortable, just kind of like, cold emailing, cold reaching out. But I kept it light, I kind of echoed their casual on this, which, for me, was more comfortable than, you know, you're typically taught to be like…

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:51

"Dear so and so. I found your company. Well, I was searching on LinkedIn. And I..."

Jenna Bias 17:56

Exactly. Yeah, so that made it a little bit more comfortable. So as far as reaching out, like, via LinkedIn, or email, that wasn't super challenging, it almost like I said, seemed invited. But then I did kind of take it to the next step and created a few loom videos to just kind of further introduce myself, but further expressed my interest, like face to face, because I mean, you can say so much in an email, but I feel like until you hear someone out and like, see their genuine like expression, I feel like that goes so much further. And at the end of the day, lots of people are sending emails. So I feel like if you can create a little video and kind of put a face to the name, I think, for me that ended up being, like, priceless.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:40

Well, it was not perfect for every single situation. But in your situation, I think it was highly effective. Because, one, as you said, you can put a face to the name, which creates a more personal type of approach. It also, in your case, it was a casual company already, like that's how they operate, you had already done the research to indicate that that wasn't just a thing that they did on their website, like they operate this way, right. So in your reach out, if you're modeling that in the same tone, it strategically feels to them like you fit and more importantly, you've already done the work yourself to realize that that's what you wanted. So you're simply answering their call to help them understand why you're a good fit in ways that they don't even necessarily... it's not like on a resume or anything like that. It just feels like that.

Jenna Bias 19:32

I think too, I didn't mention this, but the fear that goes along with it is like, oh, the potential of them not responding which; A, I realize now it really doesn't matter. They get so much influx of information. It's like, who cares if they don't respond. But for me, my CEO did end up acknowledging my video and just sent me, like, a simple email back, telling me good luck on the interview process. And from there, I ended up applying, I think four different times through a few different roles, and every step of the way, I just shot her an email updating her on my journey. And she responded to every single email, not being like, nothing, like, extraordinary, but just the response in itself was like, to me, again, just exemplified, "This is a company I want to work for. Here's this busy CEO taking time out of her day to just shoot me a quick email acknowledging the work that I'm putting in to try and be a part of her organization." And then, yeah, as far as applying to multiple roles, it just came down to, I knew this was the company I wanted to work for. So again, rather than spreading myself thin across different companies, I was like, "No, I'm just going to focus here." And even though I actually got denied initially for my current role, obviously, in the end, it ended up paying off when I applied the second time, and I think a large part of that was because I had already touched base with the hiring manager. We did already kind of have that rapport, and yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:00

Okay, so let's dig into that for just a second because I think that's important. First of all, I will say most people in the world after they get turned down, are not going to go back and they're not going to continue to work at it. Also, one of the things that we see over and over again is, that is something that is relatively normal. I cannot tell you, well, actually, for people who've listened to more than one episode, you may have already heard that story a few times along the way, because it does happen relatively frequently. So kudos to you for continuing to persist. And also, what did that look like? Take me through, I think you said you applied for... how many did you interview for? What did the process look like?

Jenna Bias 21:44

Yeah, so one of them that I applied for, initially, to be frank, I knew was not a, not it wasn't a good fit, I was just like, highly under qualified. It didn't so much... I think there's a lot of situations where you can pull from your past work, and kind of more fit to fit new roles. Sure. In this situation, when I tried to do that, it was a stretch, to say the least. But I gave it a go. And that was one of the situations where I did create a limb for that hiring manager, as well as their recruiter, and I sent her a LinkedIn message just introducing myself. And she was very sweet in her response and transparent in the fact that, you know, I probably wasn't going to have what they were looking for in that role. But again, it was the response for me of how they handled it that didn't turn me away, because they were so inviting, encouraging. Not everyone's gonna be a good fit for every role, so I didn't take it personally. Late, fast forward, I applied to one other role that I never actually heard back from, because I think what happened is I applied to my current role. And at that point, I had made contact with the recruiter. So I went through the recruiter, like a phone screening, and then got to the first round interview with the hiring manager, which went great. I really connected and talked about the role, and it was something that I thought it'd be, like, a really good fit. And then I didn't make it to the next two phases of the interview. So then at that point, we exchanged some emails, again, when I got the denial email, I asked her just for positive feedback, you know, "What can I do differently? Any recommendations moving forward?" And she sent me, like, a novel, which was super awesome. I could tell she took, like, time out her day to give me feedback. Who am I going to be working at her company, and she doesn't really even know me. But I think that's because when we had our interview, like we were able to connect, even though I didn't end up being the pick for the role that time, she could still, you know, connect with me on a personal level, and we still learn a lot about each other. So to me that first interview was still a win because we foster, like, a relationship.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:51

Yeah, we can dig into that for just a second. Because I think that's a frustration for so many people, like, "hey, I'll ask for feedback." And I won't get anything. But you got a novel worth of feedback, because, not by accident, and yes, this is an amazing organization. And clearly, they value people who are interested in them, but also they don't have infinite amounts of time too. So the reason this worked is, you'd already started to establish some kind of beginning relationship with the CEO. I'm sure those emails were probably forwarded, I don't know, but probably they were forwarded over to recruiting or maybe they were BCC'd or something else along those lines. You had continuous touchpoints all along the way. Maybe they talk behind the scenes, maybe they didn't. But then you had, as you said, began to build a connection during that interview, and you had focused on that. So you now have the beginnings of relationships. So now, it's not just some random candidate, it asked me for feedback. It is this person that I know and had a great time with. And that's totally different than when you go to make and ask than just some random person that's out there. So I wanted to take a moment and just break that down because you did a really nice job allowing it to get to that point so that it worked when you went and asked for feedback.

Jenna Bias 25:08

Yeah. I think a big thing for me, and I'm sure it's probably for other people as well, is because I had all those touch points, and institutions of like asking for feedback, no big thing for me was like, kind of a fear component. I almost felt like, "oh my gosh, am I reaching out too much?" You said, oh, they're probably talking behind the scenes, like in a good way. But in my mind, I was like, man, are they like, "Oh, that Jenna girl, she applied again."

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:34

Never hire that one.

Jenna Bias 25:36

Get rid of her. And of course, that's just your, like, limiting beliefs that I'm sure everyone has, but no. So then after I reached out, got that feedback, it was, you know, great feedback, I wasn't, obviously, I was disappointed. But like you said, a lot of people when they get denied are kind of turned off and, like, maybe would like, go the other way. But I was just more intrigued, and I was more like on board, I sent like a really nice email back. And I told her, I was like, "I'm gonna continue to like, watch your job board. But if a spot opens up in the future, like, please do consider me." And so sure enough, I did watch their job board here and there. And I think it was two or three months after I initially applied for that role that I happened to notice that the role was up again. And so I just reached out directly to the hiring manager before submitting an application just to kind of express my interest, and right away she was like, "Oh yeah, like you were actually on my list of people to reach out to this week. I definitely would want you to reapply. If you could just go ahead and submit an application, like, go through the process of interviewing again." So I did that. And then obviously, this time, I made it through the entire interview process, which was that initial interview with the hiring manager again, I did a mock demo. So a big part of my job is doing demos for my company. So they just, you know, it's kind of a, make sure you can do the job kind of thing. And then I had an interview with my manager's manager. And then the last kind of piece was a call with the CEO. So that was the steps.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:09

What was different? Do you know now what was different or what took place behind the scenes where you said, "No, we're not proceeding further in the process the first time", but then the second time, allowed you... I know from being behind the scenes in many different organizations, all different industries, there's a million different things that can come up that might create that situation. But I'm curious, do you now know, what caused that or what was happening behind the scenes?

Jenna Bias 27:36

Yeah, and I think this is valuable for people who are, like, "switching industries", which I was. A big, like, limiting belief for me was, you know, why... and especially in this industry, I was like, "why would they want to hire a nurse? Like, my job is so different." And on paper, I'm missing some key things that they're looking for. And I think to an extent that is true, like there’s certain things that they are hiring for in their new candidate. And I think the first time around, they found that candidate who had all those things, things that I, you know, no matter how long of a nurse I was, I was never going to have because they were totally out of my realm. But the second time around, I think they're a little bit more lenient on what things are willing to give up in hiring a candidate, because I'm exemplifying so much else in staying consistent with applying, building these relationships, staying committed to the company. I think those things, like, speak volume. And so I think they knew that I was a good enough fit even without maybe some of those key bullet points on the application, because of the actions I was doing. So yeah, I think to answer your question, in a more concise way, the first time around, there was a perfect candidate who met all the bullet points that I was never going to have, because of my experience unless I went and got additional experience. And the second time around, I think, because of my actions, and they knew me, they were willing to kind of look beyond some of those bullet points that I missed because of what I had done leading up to that second interview.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:10

I think that is super cool. There is, well, it's no longer there. We had a section of the Happen To Your Career book, actually, that when I first wrote it, I think it was version three or four, that was all about how to engineer the situation to become the perfect candidate that when a position actually opens up, then you're on the list for that hiring manager. And we ended up scrapping it for the final version of the book. But I think the concept is super true to what you experienced, even though, you know, they found somebody initially that they thought was going to be the right fit and they were ready to go down that road, you had taken all of these little touch points, all of these different situations to where you literally were on their list when they opened it up again, and they were going to call you if you didn't contact them, which is pretty cool. Nicely done. So what advice would you give to someone who's in the same type of situation? Where if go back aways here, and it may be they're in the place where they've now decided they've done the hardest part, as you said, where they've decided, okay, I know that I need to make a change and now they're ready to make a change, and they're ready to find what is truly right for them.

Jenna Bias 30:34

Yeah, I think a few things. Like I kind of touched on this before, but getting specific, weather, I mean, like I said, I think for some people getting specific on your role could help. But for me getting specific on the company is what helps most but either way, I think getting specific is what's going to give you clarity, and it's going to allow you to get to the place where I was putting all my eggs in one basket, because I knew it was the right fit, rather than posting up on LinkedIn job boards and indeed, and just putting your resume out there for places like that has minimal effect, and I think people do that, because they're not really sure what they want. They're not specific. So they're just kind of like hoping something's gonna stick. And it's just not a very effective approach. But I think once you get specific, you're able to kind of hone in on how you can be effective in getting the role you want. And then I think, which is funny coming for me, because I'm not typically this type of person, but being different, getting outside of your comfort zone and kind of thinking outside the box, I had only ever applied to nursing jobs. That was my only career before this. And it's very cut and dry. It's very much, "Do you have the licensing? Do you live in the area? Do you have all the educational components?" It's not about creating relationships, it's not about putting yourself out there. So I didn't know that this whole side of the application process existed and was so impactful, but it is. It's like when you go on LinkedIn, or on job boards, and you look at a job and you see, "oh 300 applicants", for me, that was always really off putting, because I'm just like, "Okay, I'm just one person. I'm just one application." which you are. You are just one application. So if all you're doing is submitting your application, you're probably not gonna get it, just the odds are not in your favor, right? So I think, in this job market, and in today's day and age with just how, like, innovative people are, like, you have to do something different if you want to get to where you want to be.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:36

Maybe through this process, you have now become the type of person who is thinking differently and behaving differently. Who knows?

Jenna Bias 32:45

Not me, that's true.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:49

I think it's such a great point, though, because I think that that's like a dividing line for people when you get 300 applicants in a single role. And shoot, we've had as many as 800 applicants in a single role here at Happen To Your Career, like we're a relatively small organization. And arguably not that many people in the world have heard about us compared to, like, an Apple or a Facebook or something else, Google. And that's a lot of applicants. And that can steer people two ways down the fork in the road where, why even try because the odds are against me, or as you said, recognizing that if there's 800 people there, and you need to do something drastically different to be able to stand out, get attention, be able to help them understand why it might be worth their time. So that's super cool that you recognize that and that you've learned that and that maybe you're now on that way to becoming that type of person in the future.

Jenna Bias 33:45

I mean, I will say I think a large part of learning was, you know, working with my coach Phillip, and I think that's where, like, having a coach plays a great role of kind of bouncing those ideas off somebody, and then just kind of building you up. I remember so many times, I would, like, come to Phillip with my ideas, or like what I had written up and he's like, "Jenna, you know what to do. I'm literally just here to tell you to do it. Like to give you the confidence boost, to give you like, you know, just another set of eyes to say like, "yes, that's a good idea." So I feel like a lot of times just having that person to like soundboard you is really helpful to kind of, like, get you in the right direction.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:21

Even though I've been coaching for 20 plus years now, it still feels strange to me, to some degree, that we all need that, like, that sounding board in one way or another. And that can literally be the difference between happening and reality versus just stating a thought that maybe this is the right thing for me to do. And I suspect it might be. So that's, on one hand, even with a coach it still requires that you're taking the steps forward. So really, really nice job. You've done amazing work. And I think that sometimes on these episodes, it's hard to represent in a 30 or 45 minute time period, just all of the work and the ups and downs and everything else that went into making a many month career change into something that arguably didn't fully have the resume experience for or whatever else it might be.

Jenna Bias 35:20

Yeah, I mean, I never would have got to where I am if I only did a month of work. It took several months. And I was, what's the word, I was a little hesitant or like put off by the initial timelines and things. And I was like, "Oh well, I'm a really hard worker, like, I will put in the work and hopefully it'll happen sooner." But some things are out of your control. So it's like I could do all of the modules, and I could do the legwork of digging into my strengths and getting specific about what I wanted in a career and in a company, but I couldn't create the role and I couldn't create the company's timeline for me, right? It's a two ended spectrum. So it's like, I was ready, but they needed to be ready too. And for my current situation, they weren't ready for me for six months. So I just feel like you know, if you go into it, yes, work hard and be persistent. But know that you can't control the timeline.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:21

Hey, something I want to let you know, the seemingly impossible career change stories that you hear on the podcast, are actually from people just like you who are listening to this podcast and decided to take action and have a conversation with our team. If you want to implement what you heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. Here's what I would suggest, just take your phone right now, open it up, go to your email app, and type me an email, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team and you can have a conversation with us. We'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and support you in your situation. So open that up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line to Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:15

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 37:21

I think they were kind of shocked that, you know, this is what I'm looking for, and not like I was just a person begging for the job or answering all the questions the way that they wanted. I was just like, "This is what I'm looking for in a position, in a company, in a company culture." And I honestly think that was what sealed it for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:44

One of the biggest obstacles when making a career change to more meaningful work is lack of time and energy. How do you find the time to make a change if you have a full time job, a partner, children a social life, if you're like many people at this stage of their career, and you're trying to juggle all of these commitments on top of making a career change, the solution is not only allocating the appropriate time and resources, but also setting the other people in your life up for success so that they can support you. At HTYC, we do this by using what we call a "master schedule". This tool forces you to intentionally decide what your average week looks like and needs to look like so that you can successfully focus on career change. Think about it as a budget for your time. It also gives you the language and visuals to explain the support you'll need to your partner.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:41

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Steph Strine 00:01

I was always doing that when I was not at work. When I would leave work, I would either be going to teach a class or going to take the class, my life very much revolved around fitness.

Introduction 00:12

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:42

We all have a place where we feel comfortable and natural interactions, where we're excited about life, and happy to be ourselves. But what if you could feel like that all the time, even when you're working? I've heard people say, "I feel like I have to be a different person at work." Or, "I feel like I'm living two different lives." Many times through my years working in HR operations and interacting with clients at HTYC, I've heard this over and over again. Well, it turns out work doesn't have to be this way. To thrive at work, you must first figure out where you feel most like yourself, and where you can be more of who you want to become.

Steph Strine 01:24

I have a lot of friends that have pivoted out of corporate jobs. And you know, they now do yoga retreats, or they do instructing full time. And I see these like actual physical examples of people doing what I wanted to do. And I'm like, "Well, I can't do that."

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:39

That's Steph Strine. Steph had known for almost nine years that she felt most alive and most like herself in fitness studios. But it never allowed herself to believe that she could actually build a career in fitness. Steph is a former Marine Corps officer. And when she got out of the service, she was hired with Amazon where she quickly moved up the ranks. And as you can imagine, her life had always been very structured. So it took a lot for her to step off the traditional career path and go after what she truly wanted. So you're gonna hear my conversation with Steph and I want you to pay attention to how she articulates her realization that she could make a living doing what she most loves. And how she completely upended her life, or at least felt like upended in it, to go after that exact thing that she wants. Steph's story is inspiring, not only because she got outside her comfort zone and broke the mold on what her life had always been, but now that she knows she's on the right track, she's continuing to blaze a path toward what we call her unicorn role. Those roles that you didn't think were possible. Here's Steph talking about her initial effort to carve her own path by joining the Navy.

Steph Strine 02:56

I grew up in Cornwall, New York, which is in the Hudson Valley area. So it's about an hour north of New York City. And I went to the Naval Academy, I have a very big military family, both my parents went to West Point. And so I shocked everyone when I went to the Naval Academy. But yeah, I really... I'm grateful for the experience that I had. I was an active duty marine for about seven and a half years and then transitioned out and did operations at Amazon for my first, almost two years, out of the military. But a lot of my focus in my career has always been about people, I was an administrative officer. So I did a lot of, like, the behind the scenes stuff that, you know, to get the Marines out the door, the stuff that would keep them up, and if they didn't get their paycheck and stuff like that. So my focus has really always been on people. And then to kind of couple that with, I played soccer growing up like since I was five. I was playing competitive soccer. And so I was always like, I go and I played soccer at the Naval Academy. And fitness was always like a passion of mine, but I never really thought that I could do anything with it. So a little bit more of that later, but…

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:06

Yeah, and I really want to dig into that because fitness has not always been there as a theme for you, it seems like, but now it's a much more central theme. And we'll talk about how you transition into that in a little bit. But I'm really curious, what made you, aside from having a military family and everything, what made you decide to go into the Naval Academy?

Steph Strine 04:32

I made a list. I'm very organized and I like a set of, like, structures. So the military for me was something that was very familiar, but why the Naval Academy? Definitely the soccer piece like at the time. That soccer team was performing super well. I really resonated with, like, the team when I went and visited and hung out with the girls on the team. I made a list, like, growing up of what I was looking for in a college, and Annapolis actually hit more than West Point. And my mom still works at West Point too. So I was like, I just kind of want to do my own thing. And so that was kind of the why behind, I would say, like, soccer first. And then it was, I wanted to carve my own path, which I can see now is like, very, very, it's a theme that's like, woven throughout a lot of my career story.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:19

I could see that. What did your family think when you first told them, "you know, I'm thinking Annapolis."

Steph Strine 05:24

So yeah, it was blasted in like the newspapers where I grew up, it was like strike picks and navy, not army. So my mom was devastated, to say the least. But she got over it. She has, like, more Navy apparel than I do now. But you know, I mean, they're excited. I mean, at the end of the day, like it was a great school. And yeah, so I mean, would they have loved to have another West Point graduate? Sure. But there's plenty of my family. And so I happily go to the Navy, not the other side. So…

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:54

That's amazing. And it sounded like that really was a better fit for you.

Steph Strine 06:00

Yeah, I was talking about this today with a friend. And I used to be like, it's still kind of trickles in, but like people pleasing. And I think the easier choice would have been to, like, go to West Point and just follow in my parents footsteps, but I just knew that it was the right choice for me. And yeah, I couldn't imagine life any different, I wouldn't have been able to be a Marine Corps officer, it would have been a little bit more challenging too at West Point, you know, it wouldn't have unfolded the way that it did.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:27

When I heard you say just a few minutes ago that you were in for about seven and a half years or so, what caused you to realize it was time to go time to make a change?

Steph Strine 06:41

A couple of things. Along this period of years that I was in the Marine Corps, I gotten sober. And I had something that happened personally to me that I wouldn't be able to say in the active duty any longer. So that was one thing. And then after I finished rehab, I kind of just had a new perspective on life, like most things when you do something incredibly crazy like that, and flip your entire life around. And so I knew it was time because I wasn't like, I wasn't invested in what we were doing. And that's also been a theme. And my story is like, I just knew that there were people that were more passionate about it, and they were going to charge the next wave of whatever the Marine Corps was to develop into. And not just, it wasn't my time anymore. And I knew that it would also be unsettling to me to stay in an environment that I knew I couldn't grow in because of the things that have led me up to getting sober. And like I'm not ashamed of it at all to why it happened. And for me, it's happened in a very amazing, beautiful way. But I just also knew that, like, there's life outside of the military as well. And if I can stay sober, then I can do anything.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:53

How has going through that type of experience, and then going through rehab, how has that changed your perspective on life?

Steph Strine 08:02

It was very humbling. I mean, as someone that, like I mentioned, is very list oriented. And like, that was not on my list whatsoever. It was not there at all. So it was very unexpected. I think the biggest thing that I learned was like life is very precious, I'm very fortunate to, like, kind of be alive today. And I have a lot of friends that unfortunately passed away from substance abuse or overdose. And like, that was kind of the biggest kicker for me to leave Amazon too, was like, I have one life to live. And if I don't do this, I'm going to regret it for the rest of my life no matter what way it happens. So I think that was one of the biggest things I learned was just how precious life is and then humility at the end of the day. Like, personally, for me, I believe that we all kind of want the same things, like to be supported, to be protected, to be loved and to feel cared for in some sort of capacity. And like that's what I've found in my sobriety is the complete opposite of addiction is connection. And those were the two things that I think I left that experience with that I take with me still to this day.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:08

That's awesome. That is amazing, actually. And I'm really curious, because you mentioned that some of the same reasons that you left the military also are some of the same reasons that you left Amazon, or at least some of the realizations that you know, pretty much have one life. And I'm curious, what some of the differences were too. So let's start out, let's go back for a little bit here and tell me a little bit about when you transitioned out of the military, how did you end up at Amazon?

Steph Strine 09:41

Yeah, so it was... I had all these, as per usual, I had a plan. I knew exactly when I could get out. I was like I'm going to start an internship with a skill bridge like most military transitioning officers or enlisted do and then the pandemic happened. And I was like, "I do not want to do a virtual internship", like, that's just not for me. I was in San Diego at the time. I think I was like a little bit over a year and a half sober. So it's still kind of like navigating, like this new life that I was living. And I got out in September of 2020. And I wanted to stay in San Diego. San Diego was opening and closing nonstop. And so, Amazon kind of came about in a very strange way, like I was unemployed for about four months, which was very, very challenging for me to kind of deal with for someone that was like, I'm a transitioning military officer, I went to service academy, like I'm a female, I'm also minority like, but it was also the pandemic, and we had no idea what we're doing, right? And then on top of that, trying to stay in San Diego, which is one of the nicest places to live. I made it quite challenging to transition out with those things that I was looking for. All of you said, I also was limiting myself, like I said, I did human resources in the military. And so I was just gravitating towards, like, I'm gonna go to these HR specialist roles. And I'm going to look at these, like HRBP roles, just because like, that's how my brain thought that I could only exist within this box. And I was getting my masters around that time, that transition to virtual as well. And someone had just been like, hop on an Amazon webinar and just like, see what positions are offering whatever. And I was like, yeah, okay, like, I could never work at Amazon. I've never been like a data driven gal. I've never loved, like, math or science or anything. And so I just didn't really think there was a place for me at Amazon. But, you know, there's a military pathways program there. They look for transitioning veterans within their first year that are about to have their master's degree. And so seems like a pretty good fit at the time for someone that was also in dire need of income. And yeah, I went for it. I was like, you know what, if anything, like it'll just be a learning experience and see what happens. I'll learn a lot about all the orders that I buy off at Amazon. And that's how it kind of came about. And then, so I started in January of 2021. So I had about like four and a half months leading up to me starting my first job out of the military.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:14

So tell me about then, when you got to Amazon, I heard you say just a minute ago that, "I never thought I would be the type of person who would go to Amazon necessarily not data driven, not interested in math, not interested in science, necessarily". And in some ways, the polar opposite of how you viewed yourself at the time. So what parts of that once you actually got to Amazon, what were the parts that actually surprisingly worth it for you? And then what were the parts that you discovered, were definitely not a fit? Tell me a little bit about both sides.

Steph Strine 12:48

So, first couple of six months at Amazon, I absolutely loved it. I was having the best time, I had a great boss, he taught me so much about the business. And the cool thing about the Pathways Program is that you get additional guidance from seasoned leaders at Amazon. And so I really enjoyed that time that I got to have with my direct manager because I was able to, like, very much ask the questions that maybe I was not afraid, but like simple questions that an Amazon manager should know. But as someone that's completely new, had no idea. And so I would say, like, that piece was something that I really, really enjoyed in the beginning was the ability to make mistakes and not be micromanaged by that boss specifically. And then it's very structured. I mean, when you think about it, I'm sure like most people, like, I order a lot off Amazon. And so, like, it is nonstop. We have a 24 hour or they have a 24 hour operation and customer fulfillment. And so it is a well churn machine that is operating all times. And that comes with a lot of steaks. So they look for people that can be there for 12 hours at a time, and kind of put their life on pause during the holidays, like I didn't work... I mean, I don't know, I worked every single holiday for the past two years. Luckily, I left before the peak of last year, but like that was a huge piece of that I was not used to, I mean, we got holidays off all the time in the military. And so that piece was a little bit challenging. But you know, at the end of the day, what I found was that like, there's people that work in the Amazon facilities and that until they make it completely automated, it's going to be a people driven business. And for me, like I mentioned, like, people are my passion. And so that leadership piece came to me very easily. I was, like, very good at building relationships, like, cross collaborating with different stakeholders in the fulfillment center that I was working at the time. I was able to help promote and grow, not only like Amazon Associates, but also the managers that reported to me. So that piece for me was really easy. The piece that was really challenging was towards the end, because I started working nights. I moved from a fulfillment center to a delivery station. And for us to start getting vans on the road, we had to start working at like midnight.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:13

So then, tell me a little bit about what led up to this... let's call it deciding that fitness is going to play a bigger part in your life and your work.

Steph Strine 15:25

I got my 200 hour yoga certification when I was stationed in Okinawa, Japan. For those that have been in Okinawa, Japan, you know, it's, like, very small, I didn't know what it was when I first got there. And so when I got there, I was like, "Oh my God..." There's a lot to do, but I was 23 and super naive. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I have nothing to do. My life sucks." And I decided to get my 200 hour yoga certification from someone that was teaching on base, it's the best thing I ever did. And I started to teach when I was a second lieutenant on base. I taught at a local CrossFit gym in Okinawa. And then when I got back to San Diego in 2016, I started to teach at core power yoga. And I was always doing that when I was not at work. When I would leave work, I would either be going to teach a class, or going to take a class. My life very much revolves around fitness. And that was the case for about almost, let's say, like, eight years. It's almost been nine years since I got certified as a yoga instructor. And then got a couple additional certifications throughout. I was also leading, you know, there's a lot of different training that they do. And so I loved it. I mean, it was just something that became a big part of my life. It was like, I just realized, after a long time, of kind of like downplaying my own skills and talents, like, I had this self limiting belief that like, I could never make money doing fitness full time. Like I always, I think it was something that was just kind of like pitch to me growing up is that like, people don't make money in the fitness world or, you know, you can't do that full time, you won't be making the amount of money that you will, which is true, actually, that is true. But at the time, I was making really great money and hated waking up every single day. I found a lot of joy in connecting with clients during class after class, like, it was just that there was a moment where I was just like, "why couldn't I do this all the time?" And that's also something that coaching prompted for me, you know, it's like, I have a lot of friends that have pivoted out of corporate jobs, and they now do yoga retreats, or they do instructing full time. And I see these like actual physical examples of people doing what I wanted to do. And I'm like, "Oh, I can't do that." And as soon as I got introduced to this program that you offered, and kind of just had like a moment of clarity of like, life is very precious and very short, I just knew that I had to go for it. And once I decide on something, I just kind of get the wheels going. And it's actually pretty quite insane how quickly I started to roll once I, like, made that decision of like, "okay, I'm gonna go for this."

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:13

I think that's really fascinating to me because even in the beginning of our conversation, there's this clear pattern of once you decide on something, then it starts to happen pretty quickly for you. And that seems to be the catalyst. So here's what I'm curious about, then, like it took a long time for you to move through those, I think you called them limiting beliefs earlier. But when you were saying, "Hey, I had these real examples of people doing this– creating a career in fitness." And you're like, "I can't do that." What was causing you to think that at that time? Do you recall?

Steph Strine 18:58

A lot of fear. A lot of fear of failing. That's always been a theme for me is like, what if I'm not successful in this? And there's an exercise that you have us do in the bootcamp that I mean, quite frankly, like, changed my life, kind of getting emotional about it, talking about it, but like, reaching out to friends and family about like, this is how it introduced stuff. And almost every single person said things that, like, I just hadn't really internalized or I thought that was like, "Yeah, whatever I do that", like I bring people together, or I inspire people to make changes in their lives since like... Not that I wasn't doing that in the military or at Amazon, because in a sense, I feel like I did, I brought that element. But like, most of the time, I was doing that in the fitness room. And I just had this overwhelming sense of my body. I was like, I am not doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Like I need to go do this now, even if I don't know what it looks like. And as someone that likes to know what things look like, it was a lot of fear. I was like, I don't know how I'm gonna make money. I don't know where am I gonna go. But it was a lot of just like, I really needed to see it. And I read it. And I got it from a lot of people a lot. And I was like, "I can't deny this from people that I trust and value", like even mentors in the military, were saying, like, "A fitness professional", you know, and I was like, "what?" I mean, like, I mean, I guess but it was just... I needed to see it to believe it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:36

It's kind of a... it's a really funny thing, at least from my perspective over the years, because that type of exercise, and just a little bit backstory for, if you're listening to this, and the exercise we're talking about is one that we regularly use with clients where you might reach out to say, anywhere from 7 to 25 different people that represent a different portions of your world, you know, work, friends, family, all kinds of different things. And you can tell me how you felt about this Steph, but a lot of people are, there's a little bit of trepidation, there's a little bit of fear, because it sort of feels like you're putting yourself out there. And what are these people gonna say, and all these things. So that's something that we see really normally. But also, I cannot tell you the number I've been told, probably over 1000 times now, no joke, probably over 1000 times by different people that we've worked with, that exercise was so valuable, and changed how they thought about themselves. And it sounds like that was the case for you, too. So how did you feel about that before, first of all?

Steph Strine 21:44

Before, I mean, All of you say, I mean, I definitely send it to the right people.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:53

So here's what's really interesting is like, we're asking people to say what are the really positive things about you. So in hindsight, it's like, well, what am I scared of? Like I'm asking for positive feedback. But when you're actually doing it, it doesn't feel that way at all, right?

Steph Strine 22:08

Yeah, I think more so. And it's something that I've had to do, I'm still kind of learning and growing, but like, I've outgrown, I think some of the things that were taught to me growing up, and so I think a lot of... I had a lot of, I'm a former people pleaser. And so like, I very much valued what my mom and my dad and close family members would think about me pivoting to this, but it was, like, a unanimous, like, you're really good at this. And you need to go do this in a very, like, flowery, nice, like, positive way, not just like, "what are you doing with your life?" It was unanimously like you bring value to this piece of my life. And the majority is through connection and movement. And after? Yeah, it was, like I mentioned, this just overwhelming sense of, I have a lot of people that believe in me, and why don't I believe in myself. And to kind of go back to what you said, of like, once I make a decision, things start going, something that helped me with my coach was literally looking back on things like, "Okay, well, you did this, and you didn't know what it's gonna be like, but it turned out really well. And you got your masters or whatever. Or you didn't know you were doing at Amazon as an operations manager. And turns out, you're one of the top performers at your site. Like, if you look back at your life stuff, like a lot of things that you've done and accomplished have turned out really great. So like not to say that this isn't going to be one of those, but like, why not you?" And that was the question that my coach proposed to me. And I was just like, "wow", I love that session. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, why not? Why can't I go do this?" I couldn't come up with any reason why.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:56

Was it at that point in time where you realized that you had to make movement when you couldn't come up with any reason why or did it still take a while longer?

Steph Strine 24:04

Nope, it didn't take that much longer. Like I started moving things very quickly. I started working with Happen To Your Career in October of last year. And by the beginning of November, I put in my resignation. As soon as I knew that, that was not my path to be going down any longer, like, I knew that I had to start making changes where I wasn't going to go for it like. And so, with not a lot of visibility onto what it was going to look like, I just started to make, like, controllable changes. So the first was, like, to let them know that this is not working for me anymore. And I was going to leave, small things like getting out of my lease and stuff like that. And I don't know, I started moving very quickly. Luckily for me, and one of my dearest friends that helped me get sober, she reminded me of this is that, like, I have a cool opportunity because I don't have a family, and not to like shame on myself or anything, but like I have the ability to go make these decisions. And I have two dogs that will come with me. It's really hard to have dogs in New York City though, I am learning that now. I don't have to check in with someone else. I'm like, I can make that decision as someone that single. And so I had this, maybe down the road, I wouldn't have had that opportunity if I met someone or I had kids or what, life would be different. And so I was like, I have to go do this now with what I got. And so I started to make those, like, changes pretty quickly. And I was in New York in the beginning of December. So it was about like 60 days, and I moved out of my place in Atlanta, and was in my new apartment in New York.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:50

That's amazing.

Steph Strine 25:51

Some call it crazy, but it is amazing to me. Like two months, I did a lot in two months. But I would have stayed if I didn't go.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:04

I think here's what is, we'll call it interesting. For me, what I've observed over the years is that those things that we all, or people call crazy, are often things that are not normal. And what is normal is for people to stay in roles and jobs and work situations that really just don't align with what they want, and really are not ever going to be what they actually want. And so what I've learned from that is that if people are calling you crazy, it's probably a good sign that you're leaning into something that is great for you. So kudos to you, because although not everybody in the world will understand it, I think you've done some really amazing work. Can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing right now? And also what the future looks like and what you anticipate you will evolve to as well?

Steph Strine 27:01

Yeah. No, I definitely agree. I think crazy is such a relative term. What I absolutely love doing, and I'm really stoked about that. But right now, I am an assistant studio manager at a SoulCycle on the Upper East Side. I'm also teaching yoga at a couple of studios, one on the Upper East Side. And then coming back to core power yoga. However, and I've been very transparent with the team here about it is like, I realized in my last month at SoulCycle that I think I was kind of selling myself short or kind of I see in this role I see myself like relying on those like old patterns of like, the managerial stuff, which is important, don't get me wrong, because the studio cannot run without the behind the scenes stuff that goes on. But like I know my life's purpose is to be instructing and in front of clients, whether that's on yoga mats, whether that's on a treadmill, I learned that this last week, I auditioned for SoulCycle. And I was like, This is what I'm supposed to be doing. And I left there after like two hours of biking, after auditions, and I was like, so tired but I couldn't stop smiling. Like I don't leave, you know, I didn't leave Amazon that way. I didn't leave my Marine Corps job that way. And I'm not really leaving my assistant city manager job that way right now. So I know that this is just a step in the right direction. New York is really small in the fitness world. So creating those connections period is a great way to just, like, meet people. But what the future holds. I've been doing a lot of auditioning, I have a lot of like instructor roles that are kind of on the horizon right now. And then in the future, I was supposed to be getting my 300 hour yoga certification right now, I was doing a little bit too much, and it ended up just not working out. So I'm actually going to India in November with one of my mentors who introduced me to yoga, another full circle moment. So like, I think the biggest thing for me now, like what the future looks like is like, I'm painting it, I'm creating it. I can also like, change it whenever I want to, I'm not stuck in a place where I don't know. It's quite freeing, but for someone that struggles with a lack of structure at times, I have to create that for myself. And so I try and do that with my dogs. They're very routine oriented. I try and time for myself whether that's like a workout or maybe it's just, like, going to get my nails done or something. I mean, life looks very different now that I live in New York. Very small space, definitely different budget, you know, and that's been interesting to navigate as someone that didn't really have to be so meticulous on that before but I'm making it work and I've been here now for like almost three months. And so hopefully here shortly, I'll just be instructing full time. I don't know where and what capacity, but definitely like, in that career profile, it was like overbearingly, you know, just visible that I need to be doing something that's instructing base. And that's like something I'm invested in. And so that's why I know right now that like, this is just kind of like a stepping stone. It's not my forever job. It's helping me to make ends meet so that I can do the next best step. And so that's definitely a growth for me, because I think I looked at this as like, you know, I don't want to let people down if I'm leaving, it's like, no, like, this is my life and I'm going to do what I want to do. And I know that I want to do fitness, instructing full time. And so it's actually been really empowering to know that, like, to make these decisions on my behalf and not just settle for something because it's giving me a paycheck.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:56

I think one of the really fun things about your set of experiences and your story is that it's still rapidly developing. And I think that that is awesome, because a lot of times when people will listen to the Happen To Your Career podcast, and we'll share a story, sometimes it feels like there's some level of finality when they've accepted, like one opportunity or something else. And what gets lost sometimes in a 35 minute episode, is that no, the stuff is ongoing developing. And the thing that I loved and do love about your story is you're actively leaning into this more and more and more, and you're getting more, like, you're getting those moments that sometimes people go their entire lifetime without where you're like, are leaving and can't stop smiling. And I think that the more that you can lean into that, the more you find more of those as well, or understanding a greater level of detail about what you need in the future. And I think the really cool thing about where you're at right now is you're getting a lot of doses of that which you can then incorporate into, here's what the next evolution and the next evolution and the next after evolution after that looks like. So I really, really appreciate you sharing all of that, and everything that comes with it. That is super cool. And one of the things that I wanted to ask you, for other people who are in a similar situation, whether they have transitioned out of the military, or whether they are recognizing that they need to change in one way or another. And they're back at that initial stage where, like, "okay, I need to do something different." What advice would you give that person who's right there?

Steph Strine 32:48

I would say, trust your intuition. I mean, if you're kind of “woowoo’ like me, you get that or trust your gut or, like, you know, what's best for you. And I think, like, that can be as simple as, like, "I know I want to be in this location", and maybe locations really important to you with family or whatever. Or like I know I want to be, you know, IT-driven, or I need to be in that space. Like, I knew what was best for me for a really long time and I just was too afraid to say like, I'm gonna go for it. And I think, especially in the military, a lot of times, or it's been my experience, so I'll speak about my experience, is that a lot of the things that I brought to the table were kind of not muted, but kind of assumed to be like, everyone has those, like, everyone knows how to talk to people. And everyone knows how to have difficult conversations, and everyone knows how to de-escalate. Like, not all people actually know how to do that. So a lot of like those social skills and like those are actually really powerful tools to have. And especially in the military is, like, just know that you bring a lot of value to the table. And to not let yourself get, like, pigeonholed into a specific, whether it be sales or operations is like, yes, we can do those things, but we can also do many, many, many other things that we don't even know exist. And so that would be my advice, follow your intuition. And then also like, you bring a lot to the table, no matter what.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:30

Hey, if you've been thinking about making a change for a while now, and you don't really know how to best take the first step or get started, here's what I would suggest. Just open your email app on your phone right now. And I'm going to give you my personal email address, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. Tell me a little bit about your situation and I'll connect you with the right person on our team where we can figure out the very best way that we can help you, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com drop me an email.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:01

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 35:07

And I know that the discomfort of the job that doesn't fit right now will be replaced by the discomfort of not having a job at all. That's just reality.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:19

If you're at the point of burnout, where you're so stressed, you feel like you can't function normally, or you're no longer able to have a life outside of work or maybe just feel completely unaligned with your work, I don't even know if that's a word– unaligned, not aligned or misaligned. And you figured out something has to change. You've probably found yourself wondering, "What if I just quit? What if I just walked in tomorrow and said, I've had enough. Here's my notice." Wouldn't that be nice? Well, maybe. But maybe not. It turns out there's so many considerations when deciding if you should quit your job without another lined up. And that's exactly what we're talking about today. We're going to go over many of the different questions that we have found are helpful to ask yourself to determine is it a good idea? Is it a Good Idea to quit your job without something else lined up? We're also going to discuss alternatives to quitting that most people have never even heard of or never consider.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:18

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Julia Caban 00:01

I started thinking about and picturing the future and I couldn't picture anything. And that really scared me. And it scared me enough to saying, "Okay, it's time to reach out."

Introduction 00:19

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:44

Okay, what happens when you went through school, and then college, and then you sort of always knew what the next step would be. But now, you're at a point in your career when you can't see the next step anymore. And it turns into a special kind of torture. It can seem like a trivial thing, but it's actually a very real and jarring experience when you're used to knowing what is coming for you, what is the next step and always being able to imagine your future. Turns out, it's now up to you to figure out what to do next. But luckily, you're listening to the perfect podcast to help you figure that out.

Julia Caban 01:20

So there were a ton of kind of veteran transition programs. And that's really what I focused on. And they're all... truly, I do believe amazing resources. But the crux of the issue is still the same, that if you don't know what you want to do, which I absolutely didn't, then you're going to still end up with the job that you don't want.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:40

That's Julia Caban. Julia had committed to serving the US Navy when she graduated from college, and the military is great at letting you know what your next steps will be. And it's easy to envision your future as a service member. But when Julia decided to transition out of the military, she struggled with the lack of structure that she'd always known and a lack of resources on what career she should move into. On top of that, when she began looking for jobs in the corporate world, she struggled to relate her military experience to the job postings. And she found herself considering jobs well below her military pay, because she believed that ongoing myth that transitioning service members have to take a massive pay cut. I want you to pay attention to how Julia got really granular with job descriptions and relating them to her military experience. This gave her the confidence to go after the roles that she really wanted. Also to feel qualified in interviews and ask for the pay that she truly deserved and was qualified for. All right, here's Julia going back to her decision to join the Navy.

Julia Caban 02:50

I grew up in Northern Virginia, right outside Washington, DC. And for college, I went to University of Virginia. And I do not come from a military family at all, and I never even really considered going into the military. My parents kind of told me that if I wanted to go out of state preschool, which I originally wanted to do so, I kind of had to figure out how to pay for it. And a family friend who was in the Navy said, "You know, I think you'd be great for this and it'll get you through college, you'll have a job and it'll open a lot of doors for you. And you'll also be able to, obviously, contribute to this greater mission." And I kind of said, "Sure that sounds good." I was 17 and probably didn't know what I was getting myself into. But I received an ROTC scholarship, ended up staying in state for school. And pretty much from day one of college, I knew that I would be entering the Navy as soon as I graduated for at least five years. And kind of the overarching role that I did in the Navy, I was what they call a surface warfare officer. And they always kind of refer to that as the jack of all trades, because you have the operational side, which is ship driving, learning the combat and engineering systems on the ship. And then you have an administrative job, which changes all the time. And it's really... you get to do so many different things. And that was one thing I always really liked as well was just the constant variety.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:19

So what prompted you to decide to get out after five years? Tell me a little bit about that transition.

Julia Caban 04:27

Yeah, so any ROTC contract and then minimum amount of time you have to serve is five years. And you have to decide at least about a year in advance before the end of your contract if you're going to try and do something differently. And for me, it came down to a few different factors, like, most jobs in the military, there's kind of one path there's not really multiple different routes you can take and I had seen what my path would look like and it was not something I wanted to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:01

What would you have been doing at that point?

Julia Caban 05:04

So the ultimate goal for swell is what they call it, the commando ship. And basically, I would have gone into two to three years of shore duty, which is... you have a slower pace of life, things are a little bit more relaxed. But then after that, which you can't just sign on for a few more years, you kind of have to do the whole nine, and you're working 14 to 18 hour a day, you have absolutely no semblance of a life, and you don't really get much say over the actual job you'll be doing. It's all very arbitrary, more or less. And I just kind of I would see that as a junior officer. And I saw what the life of those leaders looked like. And I just could not picture myself doing that whatsoever.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:53

So when you transitioned out then, what was the most difficult part of that transition?

Julia Caban 06:02

I'd say two things. The first is that I genuinely had absolutely no idea what I wanted to do. And I don't know why I thought this, but I was truly convinced that I was just going to wake up one day and 'no', and that it was just going to dawn on me, and then I'd be able to make some moves. And...

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:21

You're not the only one, Julia. I think that's how many of us... that's what I thought. That's honestly the way I thought at one point in my life that it was going to work. So you're not alone.

Julia Caban 06:30

Right. No matter. And then the second fun thing that we all experienced was, I left the Navy in May of 2020. And so the pandemic had just started, and I was terrified about finding a job. So I think all of those factors just really made it a very challenging, a much more challenging transition than I expected.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:54

So when you started making that transition, where were you focusing your time and attention? How did that look for you at that time?

Julia Caban 07:08

So there are a ton of kind of veteran transition programs. And that's really what I focused on. And they're all truly I do believe amazing resources. But the crux of the issue is still the same, that if you don't know what you want to do, which I absolutely didn't, then you're going to still end up with a job that you don't want, which is exactly what happened to me. I was presented a job opportunity and before I even accepted the job, it wasn't really in line with any of my needs. But I just felt kind of desperate and felt like nothing else was going to come up, especially with the pandemic. And I figured, well, the best way to find a job is to have a job. So I kind of just took whatever I could at that point.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:56

Do you still feel the same way? Like if you're looking back at that now, do you feel like that was the right move for you at the time? Or would you have gone back and done things differently with? I mean, it's easy to say hindsight is 2020 because it is, right? But how do you look at that time period now and those decisions?

Julia Caban 08:16

I definitely wish I could have done things differently. One thing that Phillip really helped me work on was thinking about what I actually want, and not what I don't want, which, all I was focused on was I really wanted to do something completely different from the military without like, without totally being able to say 'why'. It wasn't about what drew me to that job, it's what drew me away from the military, and you're not this new thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:48

They are not the same thing– what you're running from versus what you're running to, have a tendency to be very, very different sometimes. And it's not always the opposite too. A lot of times we think, "well, it's the opposite of that." But that's not always the case. So what did that look like for you, when you took that role, I heard you say "it didn't line up with some of your needs", what's a couple of examples of those needs that it wasn't quite fitting?

Julia Caban 09:17

So at the time, I still feel this way, given my current life situation, I did not feel like a remote role would be the best for me. We were going into the pandemic, my husband was going on deployment, the idea of kind of being alone in my house all day, for however long on end, just did not sit with me. I love working with people. I love being around people. That's what I did every day in the military. So that was a big one. I'd say the second one was the salary. And I had all of these narratives in my ear when I was transitioning out that expect to take a massive pay cut. And I did take a massive pay cut and I thought "Okay, well, this is what's supposed to happen. So this is okay." And I never even really thought to think that I should shoot for something better, and something more in line with my salary goals, which it's a very hard thing to talk about in. It's very normal in the military, because everybody knows how much everybody makes. But as soon as you're out, it's like a very taboo topic. And I was not used to that at all.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:26

It's very weird in many different ways that it is so taboo. And I'm not sure that it always creates a, I don't know, I'm not sure it creates a healthy environment. But that might be another podcast for another time. But here's what I'm really curious about for you. I heard you say that people tell you just to expect a pay cut. Do you still feel that way? Or do you feel that that is misguided? Tell me just how you think about that now. And what advice would you offer other people transitioning out of the military for how to think about it?

Julia Caban 11:05

I definitely think it is misguided. And I think it speaks to people who have had negative experiences and kind of pass those along, as opposed to what they should be doing, which is seeking to help out the people who are coming after them. And I also think there's another component to that as well, where every person who I've ever known in the military has a giant skill set that is truly, in my opinion, unprecedented. And I think that so many people don't know how to market that skill set and how to talk about it. And I think that's where one of the many contributing factors to why so many transitioning service members take a pay cut is they don't have the knowledge to really define and explain their experience. And it's still something that it's hard for me now to fully explain to people what I did in the military. I've gotten a lot better at it as working through coaching and things like that. But I think that being able to describe the work you actually did in line with a future job that really is at the same level you're at, is very challenging.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:23

So my question then for you is, when you started thinking about this differently, when you started defining what you're running to, what helped you the most move through this in a way that was useful to you to target what you want, but also to help other people understand what you bring? Because, in my opinion, you bring a huge diverse skill set and experience set.

Julia Caban 12:52

Yeah, I think two things. One is, and I feel like so many other transitioning service members would struggle with this as well. But the kind of notion of, "it's okay to be selfish", I truly didn't think that I was allowed to feel like I wanted to be picky. And even when I accepted my first role, which was far from ideal for me, I still kind of felt okay, I just feel so grateful to have a job. And I feel like you know, I wake up every day grateful to be alive, but the bar has to be a little higher than that to really thrive. And I feel like that was one big thing of "okay, how can I give myself permission to be selfish and think about the ideal situation for me?" And then I think the second thing was getting extremely granular with the jobs that are out there. I would, I kind of had an idea of the industry I wanted to go into and I would tell Phillip, "I'm looking at a job description. I don't know what any of these words." And he'd be like, "Okay, Julia. Let's print it out. And we're gonna go word by word. And we're going to translate that into words that make sense for you." And it is a skill to learn how to read a job description, especially coming from a non corporate world. And just really getting to that level of detail was so helpful for me and saying, "Okay, this word means X from my experience, and here's how I can reframe this to say exactly what I'm trying to say and words that other people will understand."

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:37

That is really interesting, first of all, because I heard you say, "I wasn't used to being selfish", and I would say arguably, that what you have done and what you are wanting, actually isn't selfish, but we have a tendency to think that it is that way as a society, but really, I would say it probably falls under getting what you need so that you can serve other people even better, and you probably, I don't know, you can tell me, but I would guess you're probably a much better performer in the roles that you've actually enjoyed, versus the ones that are just taking from you. Is that a fair assessment?

Julia Caban 15:15

Absolutely. And, I think it's that reframe of that mindset that can help people think about their own needs. And not just, "I should be doing this, or I should just feel lucky to have the bare minimum", if that makes sense.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:31

Well I think, I've been searching for a while, actually, for an analogy or a way to, like, reframe that because that whole selfish thing is something that comes up again and again and again. But you said, "Hey, I feel grateful to be alive. But that doesn't necessarily mean I'm anywhere close to thriving", right. And it really is that same situation for, "I feel grateful to have a job" and that part is good. However, being grateful to have a job does not mean that you can't ever want something more in any way whatsoever. So I appreciate you pointing that out. And the thing I wanted to ask you about having been through this type of transition yourself, what would you tell people that want to make a similar transition, how to refocus and get what they might want or need, rather than just leaving it unchecked because it falls into the selfish category?

Julia Caban 16:29

That's a good one. I would, I think, I know it's not a great idea to think about what we don't want in general. But I do think that's a good starting point of, "what is something that maybe I didn't enjoy from my previous experience that I would like to change and to really just own that desire?" And I don't think it's too much. And people are allowed to want the things they want out of something that takes up eight plus hours of their day. And I think that's a really great place to start is where are the gaps between– what I've done and what I would like to be doing. And I think another thing that has really helped me, that Phillip has helped reframe me is, it's not about just the job I want, it's the life that I want to lead. And sometimes you can want a job, but it's not compatible with the life that you want. And you need to be able to distinguish those differences. And I think by keeping the ideal life as the priority, you can find a job that fits within that and not vice versa.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:42

We have so many people that come to us focused on the job aspect. But to your point, the job isn't necessarily that useful, unless you understand what is the type of life that you're trying to build. What does that look like? What is that involved? Who does that involve? How does that work, per se? And if you're building towards that perpetually, it's much easier to see whether something fits into that or steers you away from that. So I appreciate you pointing that out. And what I'm super curious about because you made an initial transition. And it turned out not to be as good of a fit as you'd hoped. Tell me a little bit about what you transitioned to initially in your, we'll call it your, I guess, second career change, because you went from the military into one type of job, left that and then moved into working with Amazon, right, for a while?

Julia Caban 18:38

I did. And this was, I think if I could pick one thing to do differently during my coaching time, this would 100% be it. I sort of had these major compounding factors in my life that I was really not expecting. My husband and I bought a house and two months after I moved into it, he was deployed. But we found out we were moving. So that was kind of a weird factor, unexpected number one. A couple of weeks after that, I lost my job. And then I also was unfortunately going through some pretty serious health issues at the time as well. And I was just feeling extremely lost and we were about to make our move. And I think I was both struggling personally professionally but also with kind of my own identity within that move. And I thought I need to be in a space where I feel kind of safe to be a military spouse and have that accepted and again, I just picked one criteria and ran with that and I knew that company is very supportive of both ex-military and military spouses and I kind of felt "okay, this is a pretty safe bet for me", which it was. Again, did not meet the salary requirements for me. It was really not supportive of the other personal things I had going on in my life. And I ended up with that job pushing myself to this completely unnecessary breaking point that I completely inflicted on myself. And I think if I had, again, looked more holistically and not just one thing, then I could have avoided all that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:21

What prompted you to realize it was time to leave Amazon?

Julia Caban 20:27

I think there was one big thing. And, it's kind of a crappy thing. But it's also, I've had to believe in these signs from the universe. And I went to the doctor, and it was a Tuesday, and he said, "You need to come back in for an unexpected surgery on Friday." And that was not how I pictured that day or that week going. And, but it was a wake up call that I was pushing myself way too far for really no reason. This was not my dream job. This was not where I wanted my life to be going. I just kind of had some identity issues, some pride issues to work out. And that was the universe giving me a wake up call that this was not the path for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:14

I've had many of those experiences over my lifetime. And I have also found that they serve really well as wake up calls. So once you got that wake up call, and went through that set of experiences, which sounds challenging to put it at the very least, what did that cause you to do? Or when did you start taking action or what happened from there?

Julia Caban 21:43

From there, I basically told Philip, "I'm all in, I'm trusting you, I'm not going to settle for my next role. I'm going to give myself the time that I need to kind of physically get past what I'm dealing with in my personal life. And then I want to hit the ground running. And I'm not going to settle for anything less than what I want, even if it takes longer than I want, even if it's hard and frustrating", which it was all of those things, of course, but that was kind of what I decided was– no more settling, because I settled twice. And it did not work out the way I wanted to. And so I think that was... once I committed to that things really started trending up and I started making a ton of progress.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:33

I think what's really interesting that I found in, not just your story, but many of the stories that we share on this podcast, but I've also experienced it too is that, things are going to be... there's always going to be challenges, it's always going to be hard in one way or another. So do you want it to be hard because you are settling for something? Or do you want it to be hard because you're going after what you really actually want? And that's the sort of logic that I keep coming back to year after year after year. Because everybody has challenges in their life, and they look very, very different. And the challenges in something that you really want to be doing, at least I've found are far more palatable, they're better challenges, the better problems, than going after an area that you just really don't want to be in or you've settled for. So has your experience been similar to that? Or how would you describe how you think about it now after settling a couple of times, as you said?

Julia Caban 23:36

Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's kind of where I think I'll approach things. Whatever I do moving forward is, it'll always be hard. But the reasons it's hard are completely up to you. And that is, I think just after settling twice, and then not settling and seeing how rewarding that can be, and getting that one 'win' under my belt, it's the... you know, everyone needs like one good 'win' sometimes. And that's how I felt and I thought, "Okay, I can not settle moving forward, I can dream bigger, I can go after even more next time around because I finally realized that it's okay to not settle." And it's funny because I feel like I haven't settled in any other area of my life. And so why would I do so professionally?

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:28

Well, that's interesting. That's kind of fascinating. When did you realize that?

Julia Caban 24:34

Oh, gosh, I don't know. I think probably a month before I got my job that I have now. You just take inventory of the things that are otherwise going on. And I'm always... I'm the pusher in my relationship and in all aspects of my life. I'm always pushing for the best and the next thing and I realized that I can't do that in every single area of my life except for my job. And yeah, it's a different mindset. I feel like when you're kind of at the mercy of somebody else, which you are in any kind of job situation, but that's still not a reason to not push for what you can the best for what you deserve, I guess.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:21

Tell me a little bit about what you do now. What's your title? Tell me a little bit about what your work looks like?

Julia Caban 25:30

Yes, so I'm an Internal Communications and Employee Engagement. And I do a lot of writing, which is by far one of the most favorite aspects of my job. It's something that I knew I had a strong skill set in before starting this, and I really wanted to take into my next job. And then as for employee engagement, it's kind of a mix of things like events, different internal functions that keep people connected to the company, and our overall mission.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:02

Where did you figure out that you wanted to carry writing over into this opportunity?

Julia Caban 26:11

I think once. I think one thing Phillip, once he was able to get it into my head that I needed to stop thinking about the things I don't want, and look back to all of the things that have brought me joy. One thing that I kind of realized that stuck out to me was during my time in the military, I had always wanted to become a public affairs officer, which is kind of their version of a journalist. And unfortunately, it never worked out for me during my time in the military. It's a very competitive field. And I wasn't selected. And I think because of that, I kind of wrote off that whole concept. And that desire never went away. I mean, I literally was trying for four out of my five years in the Navy to do this. And once I kind of realized, "Okay, just because that it didn't work out in that situation, it doesn't mean that desire left." And I was able to really take that knowledge and get really clear on how I wanted my next role to look. And I wanted something in that industry similar to that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:18

That's really cool. One that you realize that. And two, that you now have found that in this latest version of your career. So tell me a little bit about how did... let's get really granular for a little bit here. How did you go from working at Amazon, realizing, "Hey, this is not quite the fit that I'm looking for." and then what were some of the key milestones and steps that had to take place for you to, on the other end of this, except this opportunity that is a much better fit for you?

Julia Caban 27:53

I think, again, one thing that really helped me was all of the job description nitty gritty where I would look at a job that was interesting, and we would go line by line. And I found that when I really took the time to understand what the description was actually saying, 9 times out of 10, I had done something that very much kind of checked that box, especially pursuing being a PIO in the Navy, I had so many side projects I did during my time. And I realized, "I've done this. I've done this. I've done this." And it was one of those things where I realized I have to tell them how my experience correlates to what they're going to ask me to do. It's not their job to decipher that from my resume. It's my job to explain that more clearly. And when I was able to really get to that level of detail and say on my resume and in an interview, "how can I portray that they're asking me to do X in this job, how can I show that I have already done that and I have that skill set?" And that's where it got really down to the nitty gritty and just getting to that level of detail was so helpful and really made all the difference.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:13

What took place from there for you? After you started realizing that, "hey, it's my role", which I think that's a very uncommon realization, unfortunately. And I'd love to change that. So I'm really glad that you pointed out, "hey, it's my job to be able to make sure that I'm communicating clearly how I fit what this organization needs", right? But once you had that realization, once you started getting into the specifics, what happened next that led you towards this role?

Julia Caban 29:41

I feel like that was kind of the beginning of I felt like I kind of had this dead period where I realized that, I was working, I was reaching out, I was applying, and for two weeks absolutely nothing happened and then everything happened all at once. I had zero prospects, zero anything. And then I had four interviews lined up. And speaking of, kind of, the job description concept, while it was great to really pair what I've done to different parts of the job description, I didn't check off every little bullet with the job description. And I used to look at that and think, "Oh my God, I'm so grossly unqualified for these roles." And one interesting story was, I made it all the way through an interview process with this one job, I had four interviews. They had asked for 10 years of experience in this very niche field. And I didn't even have 10 years work experience, but I ended up making it all the way through and I wasn't offered the job because they told me they actually thought I was too senior. So I think also just being able to take the job descriptions with a grain of salt was good. But yeah, once I was able to really get that detail down, I had all of these interviews lined up. And I did tell Phillip, "this is where I feel like I do my best is during interviews. I just wasn't able to get them because I wasn't good at explaining what I've done and how it lines up with this organization's role in their hiring for." And I felt like after that, I really think started to get a lot more in a state of flow, because I do feel like I do pretty well in interviews.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:24

I can see why. You're such a great communicator. And what caused you to realize that you needed or wanted help?

Julia Caban 31:35

So one thing I feel like I'm always doing is I'm always thinking about the next step. I always, I kind of, I guess you could say a daydreamer. I'm always thinking about the future and what I want. And I always picture it very clearly. And I got to a point where I would wrap up my day. And I would spend probably two to three hours on my couch at the end of the day Googling, you know, "how do I figure out the right career for me." And doing that day after day after day, you'd think I'd realized that I don't think I can get there on my own. And it wasn't until, I think all of the... we had our move coming up so many different factors. And I started thinking about and picturing the future and I couldn't picture anything. And that really scared me. And it scared me enough to saying, "Okay, it's time to reach out because I don't have the picture anymore." And that's something I've never been able to not have.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:37

What advice would you give to people that are in that place right now, where they've kind of always known what the next thing might be for them, but now they're questioning that or now they don't necessarily know what that can look like?

Julia Caban 32:52

I would honestly, I mean, tell them to reach out to somebody and ask for help. Because I don't think I really understood how normal it is to have a career coach and how there's a whole reason that your team dedicates their lives to this is because everybody, at some point or another, will find themselves in a similar situation. And it's okay to reach out and ask for help. And I think that, I don't know if I could have figured it out on my own, but even if I did, it would have taken me a long, long time. And time is all we have. So I kind of wanted to learn these lessons and get through that faster. And that would be my biggest advice is, like, have someone reach out to somebody who can help you get really clear, and it's okay to not know, but it's not okay to not do anything about it, I guess. And then I think that, kind of, what I was saying about how I left because I just didn't see the path ahead in the one way to climb the military ladder. And I would just tell anyone to really define success for yourself, because the military has one path to success. And that's how that organization needs to be. That's how it needs to function. But that's not how the real world functions. And whatever is success to you is really all that matters now. So...

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:22

How has your definition of success changed?

Julia Caban 34:28

I use assessment, working all the time, because I worked all the military, and I thought that your whole life needed to be your job. And it wasn't until I realized how much I wanted my identity and my work to be separated that I was able to actually start doing that and I feel now that, you know, my work is obviously a part of what I do but it is not who I am and I think that is a really, for me, that's really important and to carry that through the rest of my life, and I came from a military where your work is your identity. And I know very few people who it's not the case for them in that organization. And I'm just really happy that I was able to kind of say, that's not what success means to me anymore and make a change.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:30

If you've been thinking about making a change for a while now, and you don't really know how to best take the first step, or get started, here's what I would suggest. Just open your email app on your phone right now. And I'm gonna give you my personal email address, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com, just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. Tell me a little bit about your situation and I'll connect you with the right person on our team, where we can figure out the very best way that we can help you, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com, drop me an email.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:01

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Kate Wilkes 36:07

I can walk out of this office at the end of the day with a smile on my face. And I can know exactly which strengths I was living in today to make me feel good and when you know that, you will never settle for less than that, again.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:23

We spent a lot of time talking about working in your strengths on this podcast. But you may have found yourself wondering, why does drinks even matter? I guess it depends. Do you want to even enjoy your work? If so, Gallup has some amazing data that they have gathered from more than 34 million people that strongly suggest that people who have a ridiculously high awareness about themselves are more satisfied with their work and are happier. You might have even taken every assessment, personality test and quiz out there only to find out that you're still in the same place. But in order to do work that you're great at and gets you excited, you have to understand what your strengths mean for you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:10

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Briana Riley 00:01

I was getting more clarity about myself. And then also realizing, "Oh, not everything is for me and that's okay. I can find something that is." And so that was really the biggest transformation as I learned how to say, "No, that's not for me."

Introduction 00:23

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:47

Let me tell you about an exercise that can be a wonderful kickstarter to building a more intentional life and career. It's going to sound super easy. But many people will spend months thinking through it, and deliberating on it. Okay, here it goes. First, I want you to reflect back on all of your career opportunities, roles, jobs, whatever. What's the one thing that you've always enjoyed in every single one of your roles?

Briana Riley 01:16

That's when I started developing this, like, deeper reflection habit of what's going on in my life because I was feeling not so connected. I was feeling very just, like, untethered, and I'm just kind of moving through space and time, right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:32

That's Briana Riley. A career coach and strategist on the Happen To Your Career team. As a career coach, Bri has worked in the city of New York University, and was a senior manager of career services for galvanize. She has made a ton of career changes herself. Actually over a span of 10 plus years, she made the amount of changes that an average person might make in 40 years. Bri also graduated from Rutgers University and went on to receive a master's degree in social work. She's worked in industries and sectors ranging from environmental justice, policy advocacy, youth programming, workforce development, national parks, water quality, multiple universities, nonprofit tech, and even more. Thanks to this really broad range of experiences. Bri has a perspective that many other people don't. When she was feeling like she didn't know what the next right step was for her career, these experiences allowed her to really dig into that exercise I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, and reflect on what she enjoyed in all of her roles. She was also extremely detailed with this exercise and so much so that she built an entire practice around reflection, and actually uses it in her coaching today. She's amazing at helping people get unstuck, center themselves in their career decisions and celebrate their uniqueness. And more importantly, we're really excited to have her as a part of HTYC. I'm very excited for you to get to know Bri. Make sure that you listen when she's discussing that reflection practice that I mentioned, so that you can kick start building a much more intentional life and career for yourself. But here's Bri going all the way back to where it began.

Briana Riley 03:12

I was born and raised in South Jersey, a small town in South Jersey, right outside of Philadelphia, which is where I currently live. So I didn't move very far all the way around. And I grew up in a very, just middle class suburban lifestyle where you follow the script you're given. And I think that's what I did. I did what I was supposed to do. I did really well in school. I went off to college at Rutgers which is what a lot of people in New Jersey do, is to stay in New Jersey for school too. So I stayed in the home state, went to Rutgers and majored in environmental policy. And I think that because I was told to follow the script, I just did. And I did that really well. But it didn't quite... it wasn't the script that I maintained, I eventually throughout the script and created my own. I was majoring in environmental policy in college, because I knew that I cared deeply about the environment that we were in. I was very moved by the climate change issues that we're facing and things like that. And so I wanted to follow that interest that I held. And also it was one of those things where you spend so much time learning something, investing all of this energy into it. And in my head, I thought well, like, could it possibly change directions now? I have to just go with that direction. I've been putting energy into this one path. And so I thought that was what I have to do. That's what you're supposed to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:50

But it's what you're supposed to do, right? You just get one degree in one thing and you just keep doing that until your life ends, basically, right?

Briana Riley 04:59

Exactly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:00

Is that what we're supposed?

Briana Riley 05:01

Yeah. And so I allowed myself to accept that rule that society creates for us, right? And I pursued this opportunity and community development where I was working directly with communities, helping them to improve roadways, or build trails and parks and create spaces around them that they wanted to see for themselves. And, as a part of that work, I was realizing, again, oh, I like the interactions that I'm having with people. I like the conversations that I'm having with them and understanding where they're coming from and what their concerns are, and what their dreams for themselves are. I was really enjoying that part of the conversation. But I couldn't yet connect the dots as to what that meant. I just thought, this is great information that I can use. I wasn't thinking there's something in these one to one interactions that really makes me feel empowered, and is what brings a lot of joy to my life and to my work. I was still wasn't able to quite connect the dots there. I was just thinking, "Yeah, I guess I just really liked people's work. I guess I just really need to let you know, follow that, whatever it is" I want to focus more on people. And I think that's when I got the cue to start moving away from community development from this wider focus and start working on, that's where I made a shift to work on programs that are focused on helping people grow and develop. And that's where I started to get more into that kind of space.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:43

So tell me a little bit about how you were in that first role, you started to recognize this. How did you evolve to the next opportunity?

Briana Riley 06:54

So that's when I started to realize there's something there that maybe I need to tap into more, that's when I started reaching out more to my network to people around me to see what sorts of opportunities were there, you know, who knows of different kinds of work that I could maybe fit into, that I could maybe be a part of. And so that's when I started just asking for help. That's really the next step and was getting a lot of recommendations of, "Oh, you should check this out. You should look into this opportunity. Maybe you would like this kind of work."

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:39

Yeah. Do you remember an example of one of those situations where you were starting to reach out to your network and is there one that stands out for you? What happened during that situation?

Briana Riley 07:50

Yeah, I do. Actually, I was like, I reached out more so in a panic, almost knowing like a crisis was coming. I don't know if I can do this forever, you know that. And that's another, not that you should be looking for something to do forever, right. But I thought that that's what you had to do, is you had to make something forever. And so I reached out because I was feeling "Oh, no, like, I can't do this forever. I don't think this is for me." And so I remember talking to one of my friends and saying, "Hey, I'm feeling a little bit lost" like, opening up and telling them like, "I'm feeling a little bit off balance here. Something doesn't quite add up. Here's what I'm really enjoying. What have you seen? What have you heard?" And this was like other people that were doing slightly different kinds of work in the field. And so I started just asking them more questions about what they're doing and what they're up to, and how did they figure out where they're trying to go and ask them to send anything that they could my way. And so that was one of my closest friends that I went to college with, it's who I reached out to. And she was like, "Yeah, I mean, I also don't know 100% what I'm doing, where I'm going, or that I'm doing the right thing, but here's how I know that I'm happy. And here's what I see in you, and maybe you should try these things." And so that was one of the first times I had a really honest conversation with someone about uncertainty and the fact that there will be that uncertainty and starting to come to terms with, "was that okay?" And of course, like now, I think of course it's okay, of course there's some uncertainty. And it's where I started to see even more like intentionally seek out what others saw in me, because that was helping me to gain the perspective I needed. Sometimes I was too, kind of, focused on like, I'm doing this work and that was it. I couldn't see the bigger picture. And so that's kind of the help that I was asking for.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:56

I think that what you just mentioned, seeking out what others see in you. I've noticed that a lot of times there is, I don't want to call it a resistance. I don't think that's quite the word I'm looking for. But there's definitely a predisposition for some reason or another that we think that we either don't need to do that, or we have apprehensions about that– we, as in like society. And what I think you and I have both seen and working with clients and working in coaching is that, that is so helpful to validate what are actually the most valuable pieces that we bring to the table as individuals, not just in career but in life. And so here's my question for you. The first question is, why do you think that that is so difficult for us sometimes to go and seek out those types of pieces or the seek out perspective about ourselves?

Briana Riley 10:58

That is a great question. I think there's this fear that we all have that asking for help in that way, asking for that perspective, is somehow admitting some sort of failures, somehow admitting that we don't have it all together. And in this society, there's that push to just, "you graduate college you know" you're always...

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:25

You know, you're good forever, right?

Briana Riley 11:27

Good. There's no more development after that, right? Like, you're on the right track. And so I think, especially, I think this gets even harder as you get further and further into your career, that reaching out, there's some sort of, you have to let go some control a little bit, right, you have to kind of admit that there's pieces of it that you don't have together and people are going to share the truth with you, and then you're going to have to see it. And I think people are always worried that that will somehow mean something negative about themselves. And I think there's just this bigger issue of just asking for help is hard, right? Reaching out to people and relying on people is a difficult thing to do. Because we all want to be independently successful. That's, of course, we want to feel that we've earned what we've accomplished so far in life. And so I think that reaching out to people and telling them, "Hey, there's something here that I'm missing is a huge leap of faith." And what people don't see on the other side is that they're going to share some things, like what I found in reaching out to a friend, is that they actually shared some things from my personal life, the strengths I bring into my personal life that I hadn't been able to yet marry over to my professional life. And that was something that was really eye opening to me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:57

Do you remember what those were at the time by any chance?

Briana Riley 13:00

Yeah, it was actually that, in my personal life, I was a bit more assertive and a bit more opinionated, and I wanted to share that with people. I wanted to create space to make sure that my ideas were heard. In my professional life, I was more reserved, I was more listening, I was just waiting, because I didn't value yet what I had to say in that space, and it made me realize that there's room to bring both of those– the listening skills and the sharing together. And people miss the opportunity to connect those two pieces of themselves, which has made me feel way more whole.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:40

Yeah, I know we talked quite a bit on this podcast, this show about the concept of having to be a different person that work for some people and how that feels very disconnected at best. And then at worst, can erode confidence and you can lose a sense of who you are as a person. So I think that that is an incredibly important topic. Actually, we'll probably do a few more entire episodes just on that topic alone. But what I wanted to ask you about is, as you started to get to know yourself as a person, you were having some of these types of conversations with people that you knew or other people, and how did that impact your next step as you're getting to learn more about what your strengths are, as you're getting to learn more about what you felt was good for you in your work, how did that impact your next step? What happened from there?

Briana Riley 14:37

So at that point, I realized... I collected this feedback. I wasn't yet fully... I still was not yet fully there at that one to one people work. I still couldn't quite connect the dots. So you're noticing a pattern here probably. But at that point, I didn't know that it helps me to zero in a little bit more on what I thought I was looking for next, what my heart and my head was telling me. It helps me to get a little bit more focus and a little bit more clarity. And that's when I finally realized, "Oh, I actually can say 'no' to some of these opportunities. Or, I don't have to be open to anything and everything." And that was really what I got from those conversations. I was getting more clarity about myself, and then also realizing, "Oh, like, not everything is for me. And that's okay. I can find something that is." And so that was really the biggest transformation is. I learned how to say, "no, that's not for me" and reached out to connect to the next opportunity.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:54

Do you remember anything that you said 'no' to at the time? Is there any of those that comes back to you or stands out?

Briana Riley 16:02

Yeah. I did. For a very brief time I worked at an organization that does policy advocacy, and I just figured that's probably the next step. Because I'm working with communities, and we're having all these issues, navigating all these different policies, I should work on the other side to help change the policies. So then that helps people. And when I got there, I was like, this immediately is not... It was a step in the wrong direction. Because it actually took me further away from the people that I wanted to work closely with. And so I immediately just, like, I paused and I said, "Actually, I'm going to not pursue this opportunity. I'm going to walk away. I'm going to find something else that brings me closer to actually having relationships with people that I want to support."

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:59

That is super cool. And it also, I think, begs the question for me of, do you feel like you needed to have that experience in one way or another? Or do you feel like you could have had many of the same realizations without that experience? Tell me a little bit about how you think about that now. I know, it's years later and stuff, but...

Briana Riley 17:19

Yeah, I think that, at the time, I was still jumping from whatever just popped up, and I thought, "Oh, that's it." And would move very quickly. I didn't take a lot of time to process it and reflect on it, which I would do now. And so I think that for me, at that time in my life, I had to have that like a little trial period. I had to, like, test it out a little bi. I had to have that to start having those feelings of, "this is uncomfortable", I had to see the other side of what I don't like, right, because up until that point in my career, there had always been the little threads of like pieces of the work that I really enjoy. And so it was really eye opening for me to experience something where I'm not getting anything out of it. It was really important for me to see, "Okay, what happens if I do take this route where it's part of what I'm supposed to do?" And that experience made me even more certain in the direction that I wanted to take longer term.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:31

That is super fun. And I know that on this show we talked a lot about experiments and the benefit of doing experiments. But really, the benefit is the same as what you're describing. Sometimes those don't work out. Sometimes, it is not a great experience. And that's actually really valuable feedback in the scope of things, too. So that's amazing that you did that. What did that leave you to for the next step?

Briana Riley 18:58

So yeah, so that's where I started working more with, like, really dive more deeply into workforce development, where I was supporting a team, and that team was working with the participants that were being directly served.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:19

How would you describe workforce development? I've actually been in a very brief stint in workforce development for a while and then served as a chair. So I feel like I have a good understanding. But I found that nobody understands what that is. How would you describe to people what workforce development is?

Briana Riley 19:35

So I like to describe it as a bit of a bridge. For people, it's building a bridge that helps connect people from where they currently are, to where they could potentially go. And it kind of maps out where their end destination is. It very, kind of clearly tells them, "these are your options. There's option A, B, and C" and workforce development is creating that bridge that helps people build the skills they need to enter either option A, B, or C. And so that's how I kind of think of it and describe it to people. It's that what's missing, and how can we fill those gaps to get you where you're trying to go.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:22

Very cool. So then, as you were getting into that, tell me more about what your role look like and what you connected with, and also, what you didn't connect with as much.

Briana Riley 20:34

So my role, I was supporting the team of people that were working directly with the participants of the program. And so my role was more on the, like, administrative side– I was making sure that all the equipment was ordered, I was making sure all the any, like, organizational changes were communicated out to everyone, I was making sure that the schedule was planned, things like that. I would also be able to hold trainings for people and, you know, have one on one meetings with all the people on my team and, you know, do a whole onboarding experience with all the participants in the program. And I mostly enjoyed those little informal conversations that I had with some of the participants going through the program, about some of the different challenges that they're facing, you know, in the day to day, and helping them figure out how to navigate those challenges and how to overcome and what resources and what support they had around them, helping them to realize that. And the pieces that didn't resonate as much were the more administrative pieces where I was just like, in a spreadsheet, basically, all day. I'm sure everyone can relate, right, to just being on staring at a computer screen all day. I mostly enjoyed the conversations I had with people in that work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:58

Well, I'm starting to get a sense of why eventually you moved towards coaching more and more and more. It's all making sense, right? And I think that, for me, one of the things that stands out about your story so far is that there are all of these little threads that you kept paying attention to. And I think that it's easy for you and I to sit here and say that you were paying attention to those, and you kept moving more and more. And I fully understand that that was at different levels. At first, it was like, "Well, hey, I think maybe there's something here. Let's dive further into that." And then it became slowly, as years went on, more and more intentional. My question is, what advice would you give to folks that are observing, you know, similar threads in one way or another, how might they pay attention to those in a different way than what they are currently? Or how do might they use those as they're thinking about a transition in one way or another, whether it's career or otherwise?

Briana Riley 23:03

Yeah, that is tricky, right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:08

It's kind of like, "it's the question". Right?

Briana Riley 23:11

It is the question. I think that it's easier for us to ignore those little threads, we just think, "Oh, well, that's just work, or that's just, you know, we can write it off so easily as being something else." I, for me, what really worked was starting to just keep track of something somewhere, so I started, like, different forms of journaling. I would write some things down, I would do like a sentence a day. And then I was doing little voice notes to myself of, like, "what did I like about this day?" And I would kind of listen back to it. That's when I started developing this deeper reflection habit of what's going on in my life because I was feeling not so connected. I'm feeling very just untethered. And I'm just kind of moving through space and time, right. And so what I think for people that are feeling like maybe there's something but they're not quite sure is really just trying to reflect each day like, what did you enjoy about the day? And what did you not enjoy? And just keeping track of those trends, or having scheduled conversations with someone where they can share a little bit about that so they can start building that practice of looking internally and checking in with themselves. It wasn't until I was able to really, like, meaningfully check in with myself quite regularly that I could actually see it for the important pattern that it was. Until then, it was just kind of like, "Oh, yeah, this is something that is maybe a byproduct of working but I'm not quite sure, right." So you have to get yourself to just see it from a different perspective. And if you're looking at your past self, it's way easier to notice a trend than it is to be looking today and think, "you know, what's the next step going to look like", it's way easier to analyze your old self and see that change over time.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:12

I think a couple things that you mentioned, I just want to spend a moment on because I think they're so critical is probably the term I would use, especially as it relates to building a more intentional life and career. And you mentioned the idea of reflection. And you gave us some ideas of how you were doing that functionally, like you were leaving the voice, you're creating the voice notes for yourself, and then playing those back at a later time period, and that was helping you reflect and also you were journaling, and you were literally writing down "what did I enjoy about this day, what did I not enjoy about this day." But you also mentioned the idea of building a practice around reflection. And I think that's a really important because it allows you to be able to see, not just what, I don't know, maybe on a day, you were particularly tired or something along those lines, and didn't have that great of a day overall, where many things that that might normally be good, or just okay, might make those, "I don't like this list" on that particular day, but where if you've built a practice of reflection, then you can observe those trends over time, over many days. And then the commonalities that show up are so much easier to pull out. And it sounds like that's part of what you're talking about when you're mentioning that practice of reflection. So two things. One, I would say that that's been really helpful to me and many of our clients too. I'll just share essentially, throughout a couple of ways that you're doing that, I'll share a couple of ways that have worked for me, in addition to that. One, we have this tool that we use with clients, I think I've mentioned it many times on the podcast, the Ideal Career Profile, but my personal version of the ideal career profile started long before this organization. And what I've done is I've kept, I used to just make changes on there as what I wanted and what I needed evolved. But some years ago, I started actually just like crossing it out, and then putting what the new thing was or how it evolved or how I've refined it or whatever, so that I can see those trends and changes over time. But that same concept of carried to other places, too. And sometimes that's shown up on a, like, I have many Google Docs from over the years, where it's just like, "What do I no longer want to be doing?" And then there's like a list that it just add to it day after day, or what are the pieces that I am just having so much fun with, and there's a separate list there. But I think that when you build that over time, like you're talking about into a practice, then it's so much easier to do something with that information, because it's really difficult to be able to be like in our head is, like, "Ah, today sucked. I need to get a new job or whatever." Like all the things that we tell ourselves. So what have you found for yourself in order to make that building a practice easier?

Briana Riley 28:06

I think that it has to be simple, right? I think that it's super easy to, you go online, you look things up, and you're getting so much information, all of one. And a lot of it is super complex or very involved, and you're like, "I want to be just like that, that's where I want to be immediately" right? And almost always starting too complex is what causes people to kind of fall off of it, right? You set these, like, big goals for yourself, if you don't have something that's achievable, you're not going to be able to make your progress towards it. And so the big thing is doing something that is within reach, right? Working with the time that you have. If you're not a big writer, try not to be writing. But if you're someone who, if you don't like to think about, I don't know, work too late before you go to bed, make sure you're carving that time out right after work or sometime before or after dinner so that there's that time that mental break that you can carve into. So it's really learning to meet yourself where you already are and not trying to be this other version of yourself that you hope to work towards in the future. I think that's the biggest piece there around building and practice is making it for you not trying to fit it into something else that's worked for someone else.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:28

One of the things that I have really enjoyed about all my interactions with you is you've made a lot of changes, I would say. You've made the amount of changes that someone might make in a 40 year period, over 10 years. And so I think that's given you such a perspective, but also a large set of experiences very, very fast. And I think, honestly, when I think about you and your experiences that makes you a better coach. And so the thing I wanted to ask you about that, at this point is, why do you keep coming back to coaching? I understand that there's the threads here and the pieces that line up. But why do you do coaching these days? What's keeping you engaged? What do you love about it?

Briana Riley 30:19

People carry a lot of preconceived ideas and schemas about what how the world works, and what we're supposed to be and how we're supposed to be. And I love this work, because we get to really question if that's working for us, and recreate it in our own image, in our own vision for what things can be. And I love that co-creation with people. I love when people realize in themselves that they do have what they need, they do have the pieces of it to begin making the story that they think is just this long distant dream, or maybe in another life. I like creating that with another person and having them see, "Well, there's this other way of living. And it doesn't have to be just what I was told. I can create something else." And so, that's what keeps me really coming back to this work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:22

What's one of your favorite examples of where you've gotten to co-create something with someone else? Tell me a little bit about that situation.

Briana Riley 31:31

Yeah, I was just talking to a friend, but also someone that I used to coach in the past, but now we're just great friends. And in the past, he was feeling that there was just... he had no control. He works in higher education, he felt that there was just not really any control that he had over the direction that things would take. And he just kind of had to jump at the opportunities that came to him as opposed to trying to create the opportunities he wanted to see. And we had some conversations, we had some difficult conversations, because of course, it's not a linear path. There was a lot of discussion and back and forth on it. And we got to a place where we sat down together, and we imagined what would his ideal work environment look like. And what kinds of support would he have? And what kinds of freedoms would he have? And we created this. And then I encouraged him to submit it to his supervisor. And instead of shooting him down, they made the role for him. And that was his next career move. And I love that whole experience because of how excited he was to see that, like, he could contribute something and it could be valued on that other end. And also, I love that experience because it wasn't easy. It wasn't, like, I just said, "Hey, maybe try this." It was a lot of back and forth, it was a lot of uncertainty. There's a lot of pushback, and being able to get from that place to this other side of, "Wow, like someone actually cares what I have to say", that was really such an amazing experience.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:22

That's phenomenal. I love that story. It's also one that... It is, what's the word I'm looking for… I see that same type of story over and over and over again, where we've been able to help someone in a similar situation, define what it is that they want. And whether that's in a role or another area of their life, and then turn that into a reality. But it's still, to this day, many, many years later, it's still, like, really makes me happy that we live in a world where something like that is possible. Yes. It's incredibly difficult, just like you said. And by no means, it's not easy for so many different reasons. It's not just like you sit down and make a list and take it to somebody at some place. And they just make it for you. It is way more complex. And many times it's spread out over many, many, many months. But it's still like that we live in a world where a lot of times that is possible in a variety of different situations. I think that's so cool.

Briana Riley 34:26

Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:34

Hey, something I want to let you know the seemingly impossible career change stories that you hear on the podcast are actually from people just like you who are listening to this podcast and decided to take action and have a conversation with our team. If you want to implement what you heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just take your phone right now. Open it up, go to your email clap and type me an email Scott@happentoyourcareer.com just put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team and you can have a conversation with us. We'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and support you in your situation. So open that up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line to Scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:29

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 35:34

I started thinking about and picturing the future and I couldn't picture anything. And that really scared me. And it scared me enough to say, "Okay, it's time to reach out because I don't have the picture anymore." And that's something I've never been able to not have.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:55

Okay, what happens when you went through school, and then college, and then you sort of always knew what the next step would be. But now, you're at a point in your career when you can't see the next step anymore. And it turns into a special kind of torture. It can seem like a trivial thing, but it's actually a very real and jarring experience when you're used to knowing what is coming for you, what is the next step and always being able to imagine your future. Turns out, it's now up to you to figure out what to do next. But luckily, you're listening to the perfect podcast to help you figure that out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:32

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Kristy Wenz 00:01

I was excited about what I was doing. So it wasn't leaving something or making a change because I was unhappy. I was leaving and making a change because I knew I wanted better.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:12

Hey, y'all. Before we get into this episode, I wanted to let you know that the audiobook version of our new book– Happen To Your Career: An Unconventional Approach To Career Change and Meaningful Work, is now finally available. Since you're listening to the podcast, I'm just assuming you like to learn things audibly. So I really think that you'll enjoy the audiobook. You know that we have a tendency to do things a bit differently here at HTYC. So I just want to share with you, too, that this audiobook isn't like others that you've probably heard before. Many of the stories that are mentioned in the book have the people themselves sharing their story. So it's not just me narrating which I do, you know, a healthy chunk of it. But it is also when we get to sharing an actual person's story is usually in their own words. Pretty cool, right? Just like what you hear on the podcast. You can get the audiobook right now by this happentoyourcareer.com/audible. Alright, here's this week's episode. Enjoy.

Introduction 01:19

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:44

Making a career change is not a happily ever after. Even though sometimes it can look that way, going from an unenjoyable draining career to finding your ideal role can feel like the happy ending of your favorite romcom. What they usually don't show in the movies, and what we don't often get to cover in the podcast is the work that comes after– learning to thrive in your ideal career often includes continually pivoting and experimenting so that you make sure that you're optimizing it in a way that aligns with your vision.

Kristy Wenz 02:15

When you get to say 'no' to which I think is really important, because there's some things that come along that, like you said, you go back to that list and look at the list and if it doesn't fit those must haves, even if it's in the field that you wanting to go into, if it doesn't match, it's really important I think to say 'no', because otherwise it's going to suck your time away from potential opportunities that could have been the right one.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:37

Okay, so this is what we like to call a "where are they now" episode. You might remember Kristy Wenz from Episode 255. That's been 250 episodes ago. That sounds crazy. If you haven't had the chance to hear that episode, it's a great one. You can listen by visiting happentoyourcareer.com/255 or by following the links in the episode show notes on whatever podcast player you're listening to this on. Kristy had been working in Marketing and PR for almost two decades, and in an industry she wasn't particularly thrilled with. So she decided she wanted to make a career change to something that would really excite her. So she defined the four significant desires of her dream career as travel, wine, history, and culture. Then she began experimenting and test driving different ways that she could fit all of these into a career. When she realized wine, travel and communication would check all of those boxes, she approached the CEO of a wine tourism company and asked for a role running their communications. And they said "Yes." They work together to create a position that utilized her unique skills. Kristy is the perfect example of how people who are willing to do unconventional things end up getting unconventional opportunities. We had Kristy share her story back in 2018. Okay, so fast forward to now though, Kristy has had a lot of exciting things happening for her because she continued to optimize her career by only saying 'yes' to opportunities that fit the vision she's painted for her ideal. Here's Kristy filling us in on where she was the last time we heard from her on the HTYC podcast.

Kristy Wenz 04:22

At that time, I had stepped into a communications role, and it was an executive level role for a startup company. And at the same time, I was still kind of hanging on to my past life. I had my corporate real estate PR stuff going on in the background, mostly because I hated financial reasons at that point and needed to kind of wind it down and build myself up to the point where I could completely let that go. And so it was kind of a foot in both worlds and moving into the direction that I wanted to go into because it became clear that wine communication and wine travel was kind of the route I wanted to go. And so I was definitely heading in the right direction. I was with that startup for, I think, two years. And it was a fantastic learning experience, I got a lot of travel opportunities out of it, I wrote a ton of articles, met an incredible amount of people and network and really started to grow. I think what precipitated the change, I kept going back to the wants and what I must have for my career, and it wasn't quite meeting all my expectations. I wanted a seat at the table, I wanted the flexibility, I wanted to be able to kind of help something grow in a way that I was comfortable with and fit my values. And it's starting to become clear that that wasn't quite lining up the way I was hoping for it to wind up, which is okay. I mean, not everything, not every job is going to kind of align with what you want. And so it was time to kind of make another change again, and it was terrifying. Probably the scariest change I've made. Because I finally... I felt like I finally found what I wanted to do, like I knew I was going in the right direction. So it was even scarier to leave that because it was in the right direction, it just wasn't it. And I was so scared. I was scared that if I left that, well there it goes, that was the end of that opportunity. Or I wouldn't lose my network or was just kind of all those doubts and fears that start to come back up.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:21

Let me ask you about that. I'm so curious about that because I've heard that many times from people in the past where they have made a, we'll call it a "major change", and then discover, for one reason or another, whether it's, I don't know, anything from a company merger, all the way to the organization has changed to what they want has changed. But for any of those reasons, many times over I've heard people say the same thing that "hey, it was even scarier." So what do you feel like made it so for you? What do you feel like caused it to be an even scarier change than what was arguably, maybe even a more difficult change for you the first time around?

Kristy Wenz 07:04

Yeah, I think because the stakes are higher. Because I cared more. I was excited about what I was doing. So it wasn't leaving something or making a change because I was unhappy, I was leaving and making a change, because I knew I wanted better in, kind of, in that same realm. So it wasn't a massive career change. I'm jumping off the ship and going in a completely different direction. It was, I'm gonna go in the same direction, but it's time to make a change in that direction. And I think it's scary because the stakes are higher. Like I just I was more invested. I finally found something that was fueling my passion, and got me excited every day. And so to leave it was scary. Because I didn't know, will I find it again? Is there going to be another opportunity out there that fuels that same kind of excitement and passion, and will I have the same opportunities? And it was still kind of two years in, it was still relatively new. I mean, it's been 20 years and in corporate real estate PR and so two years in this new industry, I still kind of felt like an outsider. So I didn't know if people would, you know, if I'd have the credibility, or if people would take me seriously, I was just kind of fishing around for things and not really committing. And so it was scary. But ultimately, again, have you ended it, it's such, like we talked about before, like it's a journey, it's not the end destination, it's you're learning things along the way every time and kind of just keep going after those wants, and those wants change.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:32

I heard you mentioned that you kept going back to the "must haves" which a little bit of background context for anyone listening. We use a tool– a super simple tool called an "Ideal Career Profile." And one of the pieces of that Ideal Career Profile is what we call "must haves", the things that you absolutely need in order to make your work feel fulfilling. And I heard you reference you were going back to the must haves and a couple pieces weren't lining up, particularly the values that sounds like. Tell me a little bit about that. What do you feel like wasn't lining up that you started to recognize?

Kristy Wenz 09:10

Oh, that's a good question. Kind of in just the growth path. There were a lot of promises made that weren't being fulfilled. A lot of carrots being dangled and I gave it a good amount of time. And it's in startups sorf that way. It's the nature of a startup are not all going to take off overnight. Some of them are going to take a very long time. And some don't make it. It's a gamble. And it was at the point where I knew that things weren't going to change. It was just going to kind of stay on this little, you know, carrots dangling course for a while and it wasn't making any forward moves and so that was why it was scary too. It was like, well, if I leave and this takes off, that I missed something. But it didn't seem in terms of growth strategy. It wasn't aligning up with, kind of, my vision or just, you know, I think they just needed a stronger strategy in place, and it wasn't, I didn't see it. And so yeah, it was kind of like, alright, I gotta decide either to stick it out and be okay with not having what I want or it's just time to go. And it was time to go.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:20

Where did you start when you decided, "Okay, I'm ready to do this. I know I can do it. Yes, it's scary.", but as you started progressing forward, where and how did you start?

Kristy Wenz 10:31

I started a lot of experimentation again. In boot camp, like, test something out, see if it works. And I did a lot of that, again. I had started writing for some other people. So I was picking up some other freelance writing projects. I had taken a bunch of classes to kind of further my education in the wine field. And all of those things started to kind of lead to other opportunities. And then I just got to a point where I was really honing in on what I wanted. And it was difficult to decide too, because I felt like having my whole career in one place, like it felt like, okay, that's what you're supposed to do, you're supposed to go out and get that job, one job, and that's what you do. And instead, I've got lots of little pieces. So I have freelance work that I do for writing, I have teaching I do now, I started to work at a vineyard. So I started to do all these little pieces, which felt kind of strange at first, because it's not one career path. It's like a couple of different things. But all centering around what I love doing, which is talking about wine, making wine and traveling and educating people about it. And so it all fit, but it was kind of scary, too, because it wasn't just that one opportunity, it was a bunch of opportunities. But then the more I thought about it, it made sense, and it fit those must haves too where I like diversity in my day, I don't like to do the same thing over and over again. In my PR side, the thing I liked about that job was I had multiple clients. So each day was different projects working for different people. So when I started to think about it that way, it was like, "Okay, it's kind of the same thing. I'm working for different people on different days. And each day is different and exciting. So it's kind of like little mini clients in a way." And thinking about it that way really helped kind of make me feel a little bit better. I think the, you know, you just grow up with that type A, and that stereotype in your head that you're just supposed to go out and find that career path, and you're supposed to make it in that career, and that's the job you go to every day, right. And there's nothing wrong with that being different opportunities that make up a full time career instead of one full time thing. It's several part time and freelance opportunities. So I'm making it work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:40

I think that's super cool. And I think that there's great evidence at this point that that is, one, becoming more of a possibility in different ways than it ever was before, even if we were to go back, say just 30 years ago. Also, it's becoming much more common at this point. And it's representing a much, much larger part of how many people do work, if you will. Let me ask you about the experiments, though. And I think that one of the things that stood out to me, for your first change, is you did a phenomenal job with experiments. And anyone who's listened to our show knows that we talk about different types of career experiments as a way to understand what you actually are getting into in one way or another as you're making a career change, but also remove a lot of the risk, in some cases of like, doing all this work and getting into something and then realizing two weeks later that you got into the wrong... that's no good, right? So you mentioned, you know, started writing for a number of other projects, and then also classes, tell me a little bit about how those two helped you understand, or validated which direction you needed to go.

Kristy Wenz 13:58

Yeah. For me, writing, doing more writing for some other projects, I started to write in different styles, and so different tones of voice and about different topics. So it wasn't just kind of long essays about wine travel, it became more little snippets and kind of fun, conversational pieces. And so that really, it kind of took me back to my roots of when I was back in college, I had a professor that insisted we only do half page papers to get our point across and it had to be double spaced, 12 point font. I'm not sure if he didn't want to read everybody's stuff. This was like, I don't know. But it was a great exercise in learning how to be concise and get your point across right away. And I loved it. I took a ton of classes with him. And just because it taught me how to think in a way where I could get my point across fast. And so it kind of took me back to that writing these little shorter snippets. It was like okay, no, this is what I like more than those long, kind of, essay pieces. And so that kind of led me to the publication I work for now. And then the classes, that was just further education in the wine field, because I always tell people, it's a rabbit hole and I never coming out because there's always something to learn here. And it's fascinating because there's so many different paths– you can take it from science, to art, to history. You can really go any direction in wine and find something that will kind of fuel or spark whatever path that you're interested in. And with that, I ended up, I was offered a virtual teaching class. And it was kind of a one off opportunity. And somebody approached me and said, "Have you ever thought about teaching?" And I was like, "I don't know, gosh, no. Not at all." Like, I have a whole line of teachers in the family. And I've always been amazed by them, because I just never imagined myself being able to do that. And so they got me a coach to kind of walk me through it, and I taught a couple classes for them. And I loved it. It was just... and I was shocked I loved it, because it was not something I had ever considered or thought about. And then from there, I ended up becoming a teacher for a wine school in Chicago, and teaching wine classes for the last couple years now. And it's when I'm probably the... I would say that the thing that fuels me the most at this point, I just love it. It checks all the boxes for me, I get to talk about wine, I get to engage with people, there is a bit of writing component to it. Because in order to teach, I have to learn and keep learning. So for me when I write, that's how I kind of keep my learning going too. So it really involves everything. So that was one of the most successful experience experiments I've done, was the teaching. Because I really never thought that would be something I would want to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:39

That's so wonderful for, not just because it creates an amazing story, but I think honestly, that's one of my favorite parts about experimentation in that way. A lot of times when we're having a conversation with someone and talking about career experiments, a lot of times people will perceive it as, "Okay, I need to prove whether or not this is the thing that I go on to." However, the thing that usually happens is you learn, like, as you're going into one type of experiment for that intention, you start to learn other pieces that you didn't expect. And then that pivots to something else that or allows an opportunity to look at yourself in a new and different way. And I think that what was super fun in this case is that it turned into something that you clearly never thought that you'd ever be involved with.

Kristy Wenz 17:28

No. Absolutely not. And I tell people now, it's really one of my favorite things. Yeah. And it was all out of somebody that asked me if I had ever considered it. And I was like, "No. I don't know, I don't think so."

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:41

Let me ask you this, though. So you go from these experiments, where you're intentionally writing in new and different ways, different outlets, and taking classes. And how did that lead for you to the collective set of opportunities? And I know there's a few different things going on here. But take us through like, what took place? What did you do? What happened as a product of doing those things?

Kristy Wenz 18:08

Yeah. For me, this is gonna sound really kind of corny and ridiculous. But a lot of the writing, I started to do those little snippets I was doing on Instagram. And it was primarily for me personally, it was kind of, I still do it to this day, I get up in the morning, and I write, and I write my snippets in the morning, so the pictures or the videos or whatever I'm doing could be from weeks ago, but the writing takes place that morning. Because it's my creative exercise that keeps me motivated and keeps me going, keeps kind of my practice happening. And so from that, that's where a lot of those opportunities started to come from. And in fact, everything, all of my little job buckets right now had been from opportunities through connections I've made there, whether it's somebody that saw my writing and enjoyed it, or I met some people at the vineyard I worked at, for example, I met them on Instagram, and we're talking about harvesting and one thing led to another and I helped them last couple years on their vineyard. And so it's just through connections and opportunities that come about from putting yourself on the right path, I think. Once you start putting yourself out there and start keeping your eyes open, doors start to open and you get to make those connections, and you get to say 'no' to which I think is really important, because there's some things that come along that, like you said, you go back to that list and look at the list, and if it doesn't fit those must haves, even if it's in the field that you wanting to go into, if it doesn't match, it's really important, I think, to say 'no', because otherwise it's going to suck your time away from potential opportunities that could have been the right one. And obviously, there's financial constraints, you've got to make some money too. But at the same time, I think you need to make sure that you're kind of lining up on the path you want to be on.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:51

One of the ways that we often will evaluate it if we're successful with our clients is if we can get them to the point where they understand what they need the most. So that they have the ability to say 'no' to good things to make the space for great things. And so I'm always fascinated by that. So tell me a little bit about what do you feel like was the hardest thing for you to say 'no' to but you still ultimately ended up saying 'no'.

Kristy Wenz 20:20

Yeah. I know I don't want to go back and work full time for anyone, and that's sometimes hard to say 'no', because some opportunities look really shiny and exciting. But I know in my heart of hearts that if I were to do that, it wouldn't fit the things I need. It wouldn't give me, kind of, that creative independence that I need. But it's hard because with a full time opportunity typically come some financial stability and insurance and all those things that we do need. And so to say 'no' to those can be really challenging. But I think I know I've made the right decision in not doing that. At this point, that may change down the line for me, but right now I'm happy kind of doing all the pieces that I'm doing because each one feels something different for me. And I've been able to figure out what I want, what I don't want and an experiment, it was actually probably it's been a five year experiment now. Working on a vineyard, and there's the winery. Yeah, it ended up a five year experiment. I know, I don't want to do that. I know, one of the things I had considered when I was going into wine was maybe I want to start a winery someday, maybe I want to own a vineyard. And that's obviously a big decision to make. And having done that for the last five years, I know I don't want to do that anymore. I like, in that instance, I like working for someone else. I don't want it to be mine. I've learned the headaches and the stuff, the business side of owning a winery and vineyard that I don't want that. That's a headache I'm not willing to take on and in those instances, I like working for someone else. I like them. Tell me what to do, go tell me what to do on the winery, I'll go do it. Tell me what to do in the vineyard, I'll go do it. That situation, I like working for someone else. So I did learn that. But it's funny, my husband would bring up every night "I know someday we can get a vineyard." I'm like, "nope."

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:07

That's a hard pass. Already no.

Kristy Wenz 22:08

"I figured that out. We're done. Okay, go hang out on one anytime you want. But I'm not owning one." So it was, I learned a lot from that experience and had an amazing time, wouldn't change it for the world. But it looks like a five year experiment. That's okay. That's not the final route that I want to take my career at some point.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:27

In the situations where, well, for example, like you mentioned, there are a couple of times where there are full time, organizational opportunities. What did you, let me preface first really quick, because it's easy for us to sit here and say, "Oh yeah, like I said no to that and everything worked out amazingly." However, when you're there, like in that moment, and those types of opportunities are in front of you, it doesn't feel easy a lot of the time. So what allowed you... what did you actually do to be able to get to the point where you're like, "Yep, I'm gonna say no, and that's gonna be the right decision for me."?

Kristy Wenz 23:06

I have to step back. Because like I said, some of times it look really shiny and exciting. When it fits some of the pieces, like, it will check some of the boxes. But for me, I really have to sit at that, step back and sit with it, and kind of really remember, "What are the things that are important to me? What are the values that I want as a part of my work life balance? How do I want this all to line up? Is the financial side worth it? Would that make up for the other things that it may lack?" And it really is kind of trusting my gut, I guess, and also, being willing to, if I do pass that up, I know I'm gonna have to put a bit more hustle on the stuff that I'm doing, because I am gonna have to make up for some of that. And so I have to be, kind of, weigh all those options. And for me, I have days where I'm like, I just kind of say, like, oh, "I would just love one job where I am. That's what I do. And I just don't have to think about it. And I can get out of this hustle." And that feels good in the moment because I'm just tired, right? And then if I step back, and it's like, "Yeah, but if that was my reality, I wouldn't be happy." And I know that. I know I like to hustle. I know I like to be finding new projects. I know that I thrive on new opportunities, and I could not do the same thing over and over every day. And so I really have to kind of go back to my core values and even if it's, I'm exhausted, and I'm stressed out and it's like okay, which is going to be the worst stress. Yeah, maybe I have less, kind of, hectic stress, but if I can be happy and that's going to cause a whole bunch of other stressors and trickle down effect in the rest of my life, so it's a lot of sitting with it. Obviously can't sit with it forever, but you have to, I think just really be willing to be honest with yourself. And really... and sometimes it's uncomfortable. It's not always great. It can be stressful in and of itself just to think about it. But it's just always coming back to what's important in the long run for me, I think.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:08

When you say it's coming back to what's important in the long run, I know because we got the pleasure of sort of sitting in front row seat with you, as you were figuring out some pieces of that years ago. And I also know that's evolved along the way. But how have you come back? Or maybe what advice could you give to someone else who really wants to come back to what's most important for them in the long run?

Kristy Wenz 25:37

Yeah, we talked about those must haves. It's coming back to those and recognizing that those can evolve. And that's okay. You know, if you look at that list, and it doesn't feel right anymore, or if it doesn't sit right anymore, it's okay to change that. And you don't have to be locked in because you put it on a piece of paper. It doesn't mean that that has to be true forever. I think we grow and we change with each new opportunity. And we learn things for our career, but also about ourselves. And so I think being able to be flexible in that and being able to say, "Okay, what I wanted may have changed a little bit" and think about why. Why did it change? What aspect of it changed? And being open to that, I think is a big piece of it. I think just being able to really come back to what is important for you. And for me, it's always been a nice work-life balance. And there's specific things that I value in my job. But then there's also things I know I like to take time to travel, I know that I like to have time with my family. Those are all pieces that are very important to me. And one of the things that's interesting, one of the things I learned over the last several years is, you know, a piece of that travel for me is so low. I love spending time with my family, I love being with them and going on road trips, that's all part of what I love to do, too. But with working at the vineyard, I would travel about once a week, once every other week, and was away from home. And that was kind of an opportunity for me to kind of reset in my own way too, like, it was just me and what I wanted to do and what I was working on. And so that really kind of, I realized that was a piece that's important to me. And something that, kind of, to this day fuels me. I need to have a little piece of something that I go out and do that's just mine, and gives me kind of a real sense of independence. And so, that solo travel has become kind of a piece of what I do along the way too, which I never would have imagined, that's not something I would have thought five years ago that I would say. My husband and I, when we first got married, had this kind of that Paul McCartney romantic notion of never spending a night apart, every night we were together. And I think over time we realized, like, "No, these little times apart actually do help us. Like, we both do our thing." And so it just kind of been a good thing. So I think that's something that's definitely changed over time. So just being flexible, open and honest with yourself and being willing to acknowledge mistakes when you make them. Sometimes you might say 'yes' to something you think is the right opportunity and then realize, "Okay, maybe it wasn't" and being able to say, "Okay, I'm moving on from that. But here's what I'm taking from it too", because I think every opportunity, every experience you have, you're going to learn something, whether it's something you don't want or something you do want or a new piece of a new skill or a new talent that you didn't know you had, and just being able to kind of take those with you. And it becomes a part of you. But it doesn't have to be a negative part. Even if it wasn't the right part, it was right at that moment, doesn't mean it's right today.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:39

You're going to learn something for sure.

Kristy Wenz 28:43

Yeah, no matter what.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:46

You've mentioned a couple of times during our conversation, being open to what changes like what you wanted years ago, or what you thought you wanted years ago, that might change. And so I'm very curious, what do you perceive is going to change in the future for you or what has changed that you recognize that you'll need to do something different in the near future right now? Tell me a little bit about what's next for you, Kristy?

Kristy Wenz 29:16

What's next? Definitely changed. Yeah, we just moved to the Pacific Northwest from Chicago. So I lived in the Midwest most of my life. And so we just moved out here for my husband's job opportunity. Most of the stuff I do is remote and kind of come with me. And it happens to be in wine country, which was synchronistic, was not planned that way. So I'm super excited. So I know that there's just a world of opportunity out there to work from where I am now. So for me right now, I have a saying, I have a vineyard sized hole in my life because I left the vineyard back in Michigan. So I do have that space open and for the first time I'm not rushing to fill it. I'm kind of taking my time and saying, "It's okay that that's not there right now. Let's kind of see what else is out here." I'm not really like, "oh, you can go find a vineyard to work at, there's 700 of them." Yeah, if I want to, but I'm not sure that's what I want right now. So I kind of want to, again, I think it's probably good to do some experiments in that little corner of my life and figure out what's going to fit there. And I think it will look a little different. I think as much as I love harvesting, I really do, I also know that that's not something I want to do forever. I learned a ton from it, and probably will be one of my favorite things I've ever done. But I also know that, I think, that piece is kind of over, I'm ready to kind of, I want to say almost merged my past career with this current one, which I think really does sit well with my initial career plan. I think that kind of had a blend of both of those sides and kind of taking the pieces I liked from that first part of my career and blending it with the second. And so for me, I think that will mean some new opportunities, and I think I'm leaning towards some like business development and networking and some of the things that I enjoyed from my past career and moving them into this new world. And I think that's where it's heading, but I'm gonna sit with it and experiment and take some time. And I'm excited. I'm excited. And it's cool, because having all of those different pieces, I still have, I'm still going to be the senior managing editor, you know, I'm still going to be teaching classes, I'm still doing this the other things that I have out there, but I have to have the space now to kind of open it up and move into a new direction. And I'm excited. I'm really excited.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:47

I think that's super, super fun. Actually, that's one of my favorite. I'm gonna call it "areas", like, where you're in the stages, you have many things going on that are great in your career and in your life. And now it's about, we'll call it "design optimization", for lack of a better phrase. So I'm so excited that this is the stage that you're in. And when I had to tell you one of the things that I remember from chatting with you, I think it was on the when we had our conversation for the podcast on episode 255, but you said something that was to the effect of, "one thing that I did was I just tried to have one tiny win every single day, like one single tiny win every single day." And so that stuck with me so much to where we started utilizing that internally as we were working with other clients as well. How do we help them have just one win to integrate that momentum? Even if it's small, every single day, every single time we interact, every single time to get that initial momentum, which then turns into things later on. So first of all, thank you for that.

Kristy Wenz 33:00

For sure. Thank you. I love that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:02

Yeah, absolutely. Well, you said it.

Kristy Wenz 33:04

I didn't know it can help people, because there's been so many things that people have said along my path too, that have helped me, that I love. That's cool. That's really cool.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:14

Well, here's my question to you, you know, now that you did that, through that initial career change, and I'm hearing evidence that you're still looking for those tiny wins, like you wake up and you write those snippets as an example. What advice would you give to someone else that is in that stage, whether it's that initial career change, or whether they're trying to optimize a great situation in order to look for and get those continuous wins?

Kristy Wenz 33:40

Keep our eyes open, I think, is the biggest thing. And it's those wins can come from places you least expect, the case of that my teaching experiment. I was not expecting that to come through, it was a random email that I had gotten and turned into a phone call. And you know, have you ever thought about that in that state, that would have been easy to kind of brush off, because again, now that's something I'm not interested in, just blown it off. So I think being able to just make sure you keep your eyes open for things. And in terms of, like, little wins, just don't discount them. And it can be anything from, you know, if you're in a really rough patch, which I know we talked about last time I went through some of those, it could just be get up and make your bed in the morning and just that act of making the bed that could be the wind for that day. You accomplished that was something for that day. And on those days where it's really hard, sometimes that's a lot. Or to send out a cold email to somebody that, you know, you're interested, you want to talk to them, you think you like what they do and have some questions for them and want to know, is that something I'm interested in and having those kinds of conversations that can be really intimidating, but just send that email out, just having sent that email is a win. It's not about the response that you get or don't get, you did that, you took that step. I think just making sure that you're stepping forward, because it's not. I think anybody that's gone on kind of a career journey knows it's not the... there's no end. There's no big sign at the end, "You've made it."

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:11

Congratulations! You've made it. You've crossed.

Kristy Wenz 35:14

Right.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:15

It continues.

Kristy Wenz 35:17

I love that. Focus on the continuation, and then also, the other piece that I took from that is focus on the efforts, not the end result, necessarily. Take your wins from the efforts.

Kristy Wenz 35:17

And that's a great word. That's really funny because my writing the last week with the move, I've been spinning a lot of things in my head about beginnings and ends. And this past week, that was the word I came to, it's continuing. It's not an end. It's not a, yeah, there's pieces ending and pieces beginning but really, it's a continuation. And in so that was the word that stuck with me this week– was continuing. I think that that's a more fun word than beginning or end. It's just continuing. It's just going and there's going to be little wins and little failures along the way, too. And it's okay, it's all part of it.

Kristy Wenz 36:08

Efforts. Yeah, because effort, I think sometimes is the biggest piece, it's not easy. It's not easy. It takes a lot to make some of those little steps and that should be celebrated because it was our wins. I think just continuing, I think is the word. No matter where you are on the path, just keep continuing and have fun with it. Don't give up and don't let circumstances stand in the way whether it's finance or age or where you live, whatever it is, just keep continuing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:46

You might have noticed that Kristy's episode is a little different than many of the stories we share on the podcast. If you're at a similar point in your career, where you're not really looking for a career change, but instead looking to optimize your career and ultimately your life, then our team can help you with that too. Many of our coaches specialize in lifestyle design, career design, career optimization, and we would love to help you figure out what is the next right step towards your ideal life and work. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. That's Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Tell me a little bit more information about your situation if you want to, and I will get you connected with the right person on our team. And we'll figure out the very best way that we can support you. Scott@happentoyourcareer.com drop me an email, and like I said, put "Conversation' in the subject line. Alright, we'll see you next time. Here's what's coming up next week.

Speaker 3 37:44

I was getting more clarity about myself. And then also realizing, "Oh, not everything is for me and that's okay. I can find something that is." And so that was really the biggest transformation I learned how to say, "No, that's not for me."

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:00

Let me tell you about an exercise that can be a wonderful kickstarter to building a more intentional life and career. It's going to sound super easy. But many people will spend months thinking through it, and deliberating on it. Okay, here it goes. First, I want you to reflect back on all of your career opportunities, roles, jobs, whatever. What's the one thing that you've always enjoyed in every single one of your roles?

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:29

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Dan Ruley 00:01

If I have to wake up tomorrow morning, and do this specific thing, and then turn around and do this specific thing every day for the next 10 years, is this something that I really want to keep doing?

Introduction 00:18

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:43

Getting promoted is usually great news. But what if you were promoted beyond your ideal role? Many people don't ask themselves what they truly want out of their career before they automatically begin climbing the corporate ladder. In fact, that's one of the most common things I've heard over and over again, even when I was interviewing people who wanted new jobs, they'd say, "Well, I want growth" and usually by growth, they meant promotions. It's not uncommon to work for years to get to the top, only to realize it's not all you wanted it to be. For example, if you're great at sales, you may get promoted to sales manager. But those skill sets are completely different. And sometimes those roles are completely different. So what do you do if you feel like you've surpassed the role that would actually fulfill you?

Dan Ruley 01:31

You know, I'm tooled for chasing money and you know, chasing really high paying sales jobs and things like that. And I just finally came to the realization that I don't have to, you know, I can do something that I really want to do, something that I truly enjoy doing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:45

That's Dan Ruley. Dan worked hard to climb all the way up to Director of Sales for a large corporation, only to realize it wasn't what he wanted. When he was unexpectedly let go after taking time off for a family emergency, he took it as a sign to change the trajectory of his career, even if that meant climbing back down the corporate ladder. So it turns out, Dan did make a move, but he was able to also move up in pay and get the right type of role for him. Here's Dan discussing what led up to his surprising termination from his last role.

Dan Ruley 02:23

I had to take some time off at the end of the year to take care of some family things. And when I came back to my previous employer, things were just a little bit off, you know, I mean, the whole time I was gone, they were rooting for me, they're like, "Take care of your family, everything's gonna be fine. We're here for you. This is the culture that we have" yada, yada, yada. And then when push comes to shove, they're like, "you're the director of sales. It was the end of the year, and you weren't here." And I'm like, I mean, my family is going to come before my director of sales position, because it's my family.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:52

Yeah, as it turns out.

Dan Ruley 02:53

Yeah. So ultimately, they ended up kind of blindsiding me and saying, "We're gonna part ways." And I was like, "wow, that's surprising, considering I am literally the face of your sales organization," which it is what it is, I took it with a grain of salt. But it kind of gave me that push that I needed to just say, "you know what, I need to do what I want to do, rather than continuing to do things that pay me well, but don't give me the satisfaction that I want." I'm too old for chasing money and chasing really high paying sales jobs and things like that. And I just finally came to the realization that I don't have to. I can do something that I really want to do, something that I truly enjoy doing, and I don't really have to stress out about, I don't know, sticking with a plan that I felt was subpar for myself.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:40

Well, I think what's so interesting about what you said is that may have been, potentially, could have been a good plan for you many years ago. But what you want has changed. And clearly you have other priorities now, as well. And the plan... Exactly, exactly. Shocking surprise, right? But I think that that is what happens to so many of us is we keep operating on a plan that may have been good in parts for years ago, and now is no longer good. So I think that that is really amazing that you recognize that and came to that conclusion that hey, like "I've worked hard over the years, so I don't have to do it in the same way."

Dan Ruley 04:27

I think one of the problems, one of the pitfalls that people get themselves into is that they become comfortable and comfort kind of leads to complacency, right? Like so, you get stuck in this comfort zone, you're like, "You know what, I've been doing this for so long. I'm good at it. I'm comfortable with where I'm at, you know, I make enough money", whatever the case may be, and you don't really think about the bigger picture like, "What is my life going to be like five years down the road if I'm still doing what I'm doing? If I'm still stressed out every single day, because of what I'm doing, because of who I'm working with, etcetera." They don't think about the long term goals. And I think that this, while it was a shock, and it was surprising, and it was stressful, I think that it allowed me the freedom to realize that. Now, and don't get me wrong, not everybody has that same ability, because some people are struggling financially. I was in a good position, because my wife makes good money, and I didn't have to, like, really stress out about like, "crap, I have to find a new job tomorrow." So I think I was fortunate in that I had the space to be able to make the decision that I don't want to go back to doing the same thing. You know, I want to pivot my career in a different direction. I mean, it's a direction that I had been in previously as well. But moving back into this direction was, it was very fulfilling. And I think that my happiness level at this point kind of speaks for itself.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:51

So here's what I'm curious about, then. I know, you had just earlier said, hey, you're glad that this happened. "I'm glad that it happened in this way." And it forced you to, it sounds like, look forward to the future and say, "What do I really want?" What were some of the parts and pieces that you were then able to identify that you needed and wanted that had been missing before? Or the areas that you really wanted to focus your career and your work in?

Dan Ruley 06:21

That's a great question. I think one of the biggest things was my primary goal being in sales leadership was always to mentor and to help people grow. That's one of the things I'm very passionate about– is professional development, personal development, and kind of the psychology behind human motivation. Those have always been things that have been very big passion points for me. And when this whole situation happened, that was the one thing that I looked at more than anything else is like, "what do I actually love about sales leadership?" And that was the mentoring thing. And I look back at my career, and my career has been pretty long, and it's been in sales for the most part, for the entire 27 years, I've been doing what I'm doing. And I realized that the only times that I was truly happy in what I was doing, was when I was teaching. And I realized that I had a career in sales training before, and I was happy, I didn't make very much money. And that's ultimately the reason why I pivoted to a higher paying director type role. And it worked out pretty well for a while, obviously, things change, your priorities change, your wife all of a sudden decides she's going to be a software engineer and does it all on her own. And she makes plenty of money. And you're like, "Well, crap, I don't have to make that much money now." And you know, ultimately, it just boils down to, I decided that teaching was what I wanted to do. So I really kind of went full force into finding a job in sales enablement, or training. And that's where I'm at now. And it's pretty amazing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:46

First of all, I think you did a really wonderful job working through all the pieces and parts and challenges of that type of transition. So kudos to you on one hand. And then the other thing I'm really curious about is, as you went into this transition, and started moving through it, what was the biggest struggle for you or what was hardest for you?

Dan Ruley 08:07

Honestly, the hardest thing was probably getting out of my own way. I mean, in the back of your mind, when you spent the majority of your career trying to make sure that you're in these larger leadership roles, it's hard to fathom stepping outside of an executive leadership role and into, still a leadership role, but not quite at the same executive level. And I think that was just a hard pill for me to swallow, because I have so much experience, and I've been doing this for a long time. But ultimately, it doesn't really matter. Titles don't matter, your happiness with what you're doing is what really matters. And interestingly enough, I now make almost three times what I made before as a director of sales with a smaller title. So I can't complain about financial compensation at all when the title doesn't matter, because I'm doing something that I really liked doing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:55

I think that's fascinating, because that happens so many times where we have in our heads a specific way that we're thinking about this, like in your case, you just said, "Hey, I had a hard time being able to really orient around. Is it the title? Or is it happiness?" Essentially, that's what I took from what you said. And when you start to remove it and say, "You know what, I'm not gonna focus on that. I don't even have to think about it that way." And it opens up new doors and possibilities where you essentially got what you really actually wanted and a whole lot more too, if we're talking about the monetary side, and in a completely different way.

Dan Ruley 09:31

You're absolutely right. I think that that's the biggest thing when you're thinking or dreaming of making such a big change in your career, I think that you have to pick things apart and figure out what is the most important thing to you, right? Like, is a title the most important thing to you? And if it is, that's fine. There's nothing wrong with that. At one point in my life title was the most important thing to me. If compensation is the most important thing to you, again, that's great, then you need to go after that. If finding happiness in what you're doing is the most important thing to you then do that. If you can get all of that wrapped into one pretty little package, hell yeah, go for it. That's fantastic. But I think that you have to be able to pick out what is most important to you, and then put everything you have into going in that direction.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:21

That is... Here's what I've learned about that exact thing, both for myself, and many of the people that we've helped over the last many, many years. I guess, at this point, is that that is easy to hear and it sounds logical and simple when we're talking about it on the podcast. However, in reality, it's so much more difficult to prioritize for ourselves, what is actually most important, and it doesn't... just because we're prioritizing doesn't mean we're giving up hope on other things that are also like secondary important or third important, but it is incredibly difficult to prioritize that this is most important to me and declare that, like, that takes courage to do that. So I'm curious what helped you be able to do that for yourself?

Dan Ruley 11:11

I mean, I think that my wife had a really big part of tha. Having the ability to step away and not have a job for a few months while I was looking for the right one, and having the support of your partner, I think is extraordinarily important. And I think that you're absolutely right, it sounds really easy. It sounds great in concept, in theory, but putting that into practice is a whole different story. And I think that for a lot of people that are out there, they get stuck in this analysis-paralysis almost. Where they're like, "This is what I really want to do. But I don't know if I'm capable of doing it, maybe I don't have enough experience doing it." I mean, when I was, gosh, when I was in high school, my original plan in life was I wanted to become a marine biologist.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:57

Was it really?

Dan Ruley 11:58

That was my biggest dream in life– was to be a marine biologist. And then I realized that, well, at that point, I lived in Arizona, so that was just not going to happen. Close enough to me to be a marine biologist. And it's like, you have to evolve what you want to do and figure out why it is that you want to do this specific thing. I mean, 15 years ago, I never would have said that I wanted my ultimate goal in life is to be a sales trainer. That's not something that you think about, but you think about what it is that brings you happiness and joy in what you're doing. And for me, it's like it's helping other people. So helping other people succeed at what their goals are, has always been a really big part of my life, whether it's with my kids, whether it's with my wife, whether it's with my friends, I just like to help people get to where they want to go. And you just kind of figure out, okay, well, step one is like, let's start in my career in sales, it was an easy one to get into sales. Salespeople are a dime a dozen, and you're either good at it, or you're terrible at it, and you'll fail fast, or you'll succeed. And I was able to succeed. And I did really well. And I realized that mentoring younger salespeople that aren't quite as seasoned as I am, was really fulfilling for me. So I just latched on to that for a while. And you just keep building along your career and picking up little bits and pieces of what you really find joy out of. And then you get to a tipping point in your career where you're like, well, "Here are the things that I really love doing about what I currently do. Here are the things that are kind of terrible about what I'm doing right now." And then you have to weigh the good and the bad, like, "Does the good of me being able to help Junior Account Executives, or whatever, succeed, does that outweigh the massive amounts of stress that I'm under, because I'm managing way too many balls at the same time, right?" And then you just have to make the decision to pivot because there are other things you can do that removes the bad and keeps the good. And maybe there will be more bad, maybe, but it could be different. And why not give it a shot? Right? If you have the ability to try, then you should. I mean, if you're stuck in a situation where, you know, and so many people are right now, you know, they're stuck in situations where they're struggling financially, and they can't fathom making a huge jump. And if you are in a situation where you are living paycheck to paycheck, and you're trying to feed children and whatnot, like, maybe that's not the right time, because you've literally can't afford it. But you have to do everything you can to prepare yourself for the moment when you can. And I think that the important thing is that you have to prepare yourself, you have to follow your gut, and what you want to do. Because ultimately, what's best for you is also what's best for your family, because my family is a lot happier now that I'm a lot happier. And that's just kind of the way that a family dynamic works, right? Like you live your life and you work your tail off for your family. And if you're unhappy in what you're doing while you're working your tail off, you're not happy, thus making your family not so happy. And it's just...

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:00

I love that for so many reasons, and I definitely very much resonate with... for me, it is my family that drives a lot of what I do, I really not only want to show up in a different way for my family, for sure, which is part of what I hear you speaking too. The other side of it, too, part of the reason why I do what I do is I want to role model for my kids that, like, you don't have to just be stuck in a situation that really isn't wonderful for you or for their families in the future if they choose to go out and have families, like, I don't want it to ever be a thing for them where they feel like they need to stay stuck. So kudos to you because I know that it is so much harder to actually do than it is to think about. And also marine biologist, are there any inklings of pieces that are still true to this day? I'm curious.

Dan Ruley 15:53

I mean, I think that a lot of it comes out and like what I do for volunteering. I don't think that I can really equate much of what I do in a professional sense to marine biology. I mean, I did get to work with the Benioff Ocean Institute in my previous role, which was a phenomenal thing that I've done. But I think that what I've done since then to kind of, I don't know, I guess, plug that gap or fill that need, whatever you want to call it, is a lot of the volunteering that I do is surrounding animals and marine life and things like that. Living in a suburb of Portland, the ocean is an hour and a half away. So I can volunteer with organizations to clean up the beach or to help monitor different things. And I think that I've been able to fulfill that need. Will I drop everything on the planet to go learn how to be a marine biologist now? Maybe not. But I would definitely do it as like a side gig. That's part of my retirement plan. When I retire one day, I'm gonna become a marine biologist. I don't know if that's a thing, Scott, but I'm gonna give it a shot.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:57

I think that if that's something you want, you absolutely should give it a shot. Well, I love what you're saying, though, because, like, you still have found through volunteer work a way to be connected to what you really wanted, even way back then as a kid. And I think that that is pretty amazing.

Dan Ruley 17:15

I think that too many people, they have their dreams when they're a kid– I want to be an astronaut, I want to be this, I want to be that. But when they become adults, they don't take what their dreams were seriously anymore. So I got it as a pipe dream. I never could have achieved that. But maybe you didn't achieve exactly what that was. But you can still achieve a lot of different aspects of what that dream was. You just have to reframe the way that you think about things.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:42

Yeah. Or even dig in, like you've done and identify what was it that I actually wanted out of that. Very cool. So here's another question that comes up for me. I know that you did a really wonderful job with this transition. But I don't know all the pieces of it. And I'm curious, you know, when you think back, what made this type of transition really work for you? Get into the nitty gritty for me just a little bit, like, what was something that ended up going really well in the end, but was maybe more difficult at the beginning?

Dan Ruley 18:19

I feel like the transition for me was probably easier than it is for a lot of other people only because I basically transitioned into doing something that I've already done before, and that I have a lot of experience in. So I mean, I think the hardest part of the transition overall was just finding the right place to go. Finding the right opportunity for me, was probably the hardest part. Because there's obviously thousands of positions out there and hundreds of different organizations that do what I do now, and it was really sifting through it all to find out what made sense. But I think that digging a little bit deeper and understanding what other organizations bring to the table and what other organizations, what their values are, there's a lot of other options out there, not just *insert dream company here*. There's a lot of other companies out there that can do what you want them to do. And I found that with Sage Intact, I think that it's an organization that I had worked with in the past as a partner, in a million years that maybe I want to apply to work there. It's a financial SaaS company. I don't know anything about financial services. That's not my gig. So I never would have thought about it. And then when you just kind of explore the different options that are out there, and you kind of decide between these different organizations, and if you're in a position where you have the experience to be able to pick and choose what organization you really want to work with, I think that that makes it a lot easier as well.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:49

What caused you to begin, not even where you're like, "oh my goodness, obviously this is the organization for me. I have to work here." But even long before you got to that point where you started to have an inklings of "wow, this actually couldn't be something that I had might be interested in as an organization", what were the pieces along the way that caused you to start becoming interested or start realizing that this could be right for you?

Dan Ruley 20:13

I think it started, you know, there's a lot of people that are like, you know, they talk about company culture, and a lot of it is to be perfectly blunt, pretty BS. You throw a pool table in the office and give people some snacks, and they think that's culture. And it's not the same as organizations I'd have in a real company culture where they actually care and nurture their employees and things like that. And I think that once you're researching organizations that you want to work at, you know, that's when you hit the glass doors, and you hit up the reviews on the organization's and you do your research, you make a list of all the different companies and all the different positions that are out there. And these are positions that I want. And then you see this is the company that it's at. And I mean, I think I made a spreadsheet of everything that was like, "Here's the company name. Here's the position that I wanted to apply for. Here's their rating on Glassdoor. Here's what some of the more impressive reviews that they have. This is what their hiring process looks like, et cetera, et cetera." And you just become very prescriptive about what you're looking for. The more you know about an organization, the more you know, whether or not you and your own personal feelings and your own personal... The things that are important to you are also important to that organization. And throughout my research, I narrowed it down to about like four or five different organizations that I really went for throughout the applications. And then I got offers from a lot of them. And then I had to make the decision as to which one I wanted. And that's a good feeling. It's good to have that feeling.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:37

What caused you to choose this one? What caused you, I mean, obviously, I know that it ended up being a pay increase for you, however, it was also more than just that.

Dan Ruley 21:50

Yeah, it was actually a really hard decision. Because it ended up coming down to two different organizations that I wanted to choose from. And it was based on employee reviews, it was based on what I read about their company culture, and then a lot of it was based around the position itself. So I basically had the option of choosing between one organization that they had a team of people that would write the sales training curriculum, and they would do all that grunt work for a specific amount of money. And basically, all I would be in charge of was having to teach it. And then you have the other organization that it all falls on your shoulders. And you develop the curriculum, you teach the curriculum, you do the gap analysis to figure out what else needs to be done. And ultimately, what made me choose Sage Intact over the other is that I had the freedom to be able to develop my own curriculum. I didn't have to rely on some other person that doesn't have what's in my head in their head. And to me, it's more rewarding to build something from the ground up. I mean, I love the idea that they have people that will, you know, curriculum development team, that's great. But I want to develop my own because I think that my way of teaching things fit better with my teaching style. They're both amazing organizations. And when I turned down the offer at the other organization, I truly felt bad, because I would have fit in right there as well. Their team was phenomenal. The people that I met with, I mean, I went through five different interviews, and every single person was wonderful. And it was the same thing with Sage Intact. So it came down to being a very difficult decision. But ultimately, it was because I wanted more control over what I was doing, it's why I chose Sage Intact.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:31

When I think part of your ability to do that... just because you have multiple offers in front of you like we've worked with lots of people over the years where they have two or three or four, sometimes more offers, however, that being the case doesn't mean it automatically makes it easy, or any stretch of the word, just because you have multiple offers. One of the nice things that does do, sometimes, is help people be able to measure what's important to them. But I find that unless you've done enough work to know what truly is important to you or what you might need, then even that isn't necessarily fully effective. So here's the question that I have for you when you are in that situation, and you realize that, hey, this lines up more with what you actually wanted. Well, I heard you say, "I really wanted to be able to develop my own curriculum. And it's great that there would be all these people doing that in another no another organization, but it wasn't right for me necessarily." How were you thinking about that at the time as you were going through it? Because sometimes it can be a little bit emotionally taxing when you're trying to make this what feels like a massive decision and is a massive decision about how it's going to impact probably the next few years of your life at a minimum.

Dan Ruley 24:55

Yeah, I mean, it was definitely not a decision that I took lightly. I think that it was definitely it was a tough one. I just kind of evaluated what I'm going to take greater joy out of in the future. I mean, I absolutely could have gone and worked for this other company and probably have been able to develop my own curriculum at some point anyway, but it also meant that there was an additional level of red tape that I had to jump through in order to deliver a training session to the people that I need to train. And then with this organization with Sage Intact, you know, I mean, the way that I kind of meshed with my director, it was a better initial impression and a better initial relationship than I think I've ever had with any other company. And from the very beginning, she told me that, because of my skill sets, because of what my experience is, I get carte blanche to do whatever it is that I need to do in order to make their sales team successful. And that meant a lot. Because I do have a lot of experience. And I do know what I'm doing. And I think for somebody to recognize that and to be able to say, you do what you need to do to make us successful, I think that was huge, because it really makes you feel like you are valuable. And that's an important thing to feel as an employee. I mean, in all the years that I spent as the director at my previous organization, I never felt like I was valued. Even though that I was doubling and tripling their revenue numbers on a yearly basis, I didn't feel like I was valued. I went to all the executive retreats, and all that kind of stuff, but there was no real value there. It was very fake. But where I'm at now, I truly feel like I'm a valued person on the team and somebody that they all lean on and not in a bad way, not like we need them to do all the work for us. But give us advice, tell us how to do these certain things, pull him in on different conversations about other teams that he has experience working with. And I think that's important when you're interviewing with organizations, really pay attention to the people that you're interviewing with, because those are potentially the people that you're going to be working with for an extended period of time. And if you get a little hairs on the back of your neck started standing up, because you get a bad vibe or something, make a note of that, because you don't want to work with somebody like that, because ultimately, it's not going to work out very well. If I had known this 10 years ago, because I would have saved myself a lot of problems with a lot of different positions, because I had a gut feeling in the beginning, but it was like, "Something feels a little off. But I'm like, but they're gonna pay me a lot of money. So I'm just not gonna worry about it."

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:32

I'll smooth out with money. Right?

Dan Ruley 27:33

Yeah, well, and that's the thing, like a lot of people use that as the great equalizer. They have multiple offers, you know, they go directly to whoever is going to pay them the most. That's not the best.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:44

What if that's not your highest priority, though?

Dan Ruley 27:46

Exactly. And that's kind of where I was like, the other organization that I was, had it boiled down to, they were gonna pay me more. But that wasn't the most important thing to me. And I think that while that it's okay for that to be the most important thing for some people, I think that they need to also think about the overall happiness of what their experience is going to be.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:08

Dan, I think that is wonderful advice, thinking about what is the overall happiness. And I'm curious for someone who is in the same place that you were, where not that long ago, I mean, just months ago, you were thrust into a transition that you hadn't really planned in making that particular way, and you knew that at the same time, you didn't want to just accept anything moving forward. If you take yourself back to that place, and think about that person who's there, because we have many people that are listening right now, in that place, what advice would you give to that person?

Dan Ruley 28:47

I mean, first and foremost, stay calm. Don't freak out. If you are thrust into this situation, like I was, do your damnedest not to have a meltdown. Because you know, that is already going to set you back a couple of steps. Look at things objectively. Think about what it is that you want in life, what you want to be able to accomplish. Think about it in terms of, "If I have to wake up tomorrow morning, and do this specific thing, and then turn around and do this specific thing every day for the next 10 years, is this something that I really want to keep doing?" And if you can answer that, yes, then that's the direction you should go in. But if you can answer that with a, "I don't really know", then think about the other things that you might want to do. I mean, because it's not a small decision to make the pivot and change your career trajectory and pivot in a different direction. It's a big decision. So think about it objectively. Try to keep emotion out of it as much as possible, and figure out what you want out of life and out of your career, and then do everything in your power to go forward in that direction.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:57

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like, and the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:50

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week..

Thomas Williams 30:55

I was extremely scared. I was extremely vulnerable. I'd never been excited about doing anything else. But for some reason, there was that little feeling inside of my stomach that says, "The time is now. Time is now to transition."

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:09

When you work in a field you're passionate about, it's really easy to get your identity wrapped up in what you do for a living. This type of work can be very fulfilling. However, when it comes time to make a change, it can be extremely hard to untangle yourself from your career and make the necessary changes to find true career fulfillment.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:32

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.