Jenna Murphy 00:01

There comes a point in life where you have to decide, "Can I continue on this path? Or do I have to decide that it's time for me to do something different?"

Introduction 00:14

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:39

When you're working in a career you once loved, it can be hard to come to terms with leaving, even if you're feeling burned out. Many times, it takes coming to a crossroads where you're forced to decide– should you stay or go?

Jenna Murphy 00:53

The speed and the intensity of which they were making cases, made it really hard to adequately juggle the caseload and the responsibilities I had there and my ability to be a mother. And when I got, essentially, inside of me got asked, "Are you going to be a mom? Or are you going to be an employee?" My question was hands down, it was answered, "I'm going to be a mom."

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:14

That's Jenna Murphy. Jenna had been a criminal prosecutor since graduating from law school, and she loved it until she didn't. In the beginning of her career, she pictured herself prosecuting criminals until she retired. However, fast forward a few years, Jenna had started a family and, not long after, began feeling burned out trying to juggle her demanding career and being a mom at the same time. Her priorities had shifted, and the things she had once valued in her job, just didn't seem as important. Recognizing it was a time for a new chapter, she set out to find a role that fulfilled her in a way that being a prosecutor once had, but also allowed her the flexibility and freedom to spend more time with her husband and her young kids. Okay, so Jenna did a wonderful job defining her non-negotiables for her next role. And then holding steadfast to those criteria. She went through the ups and downs, like many stories you've heard on this podcast. One really interesting one for her was she turned down an almost ideal role and had a few heartbreaks when roles turned out not to be what she expected. Jenna finally accepted a role that aligns with what she values most and is truly a great fit for her. So it turns out that it was such a great fit that just one month into her new role, she actually got promoted, which I'm really excited for you to hear her talk about at the end of our conversation. So stay tuned for the whole thing for that. What you're going to hear right now is Jenna kicking things off, sharing a little bit about how a family member's run-in with the law led to her becoming an attorney.

Jenna Murphy 02:55

I started as a criminal prosecutor. That's what I went to law school to do. I really don't know what the draw was specifically about the legal field. Because if you'd asked me in college, I would have told you I wasn't smart enough to be a lawyer. When I was in high school, I had a family member who unfortunately found himself in some trouble. And while I guess some part of me could have represented him, I did not think I could do that for other people. I knew that there had to be justice somewhere. But also at that time, I felt like that there might have been some injustice that was done by the Criminal Procedure process. And so I began to look and I thought, well, if I decide to go and be an assistant district attorney, which is the only thing I knew of at that point in time, at least I can make sure that the charges that I bring are appropriate. And I can feel, like, that there's a reason someone has been held accountable for the things they do. What I did not want to do was somebody walk into my office and say, "I killed those five people. Can you get me off with it?" And I just couldn't do that. But as a prosecutor, I would have the ability to be sure the charges were appropriate and to make sure justice was seen through if that's even the right way to say that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:07

We'll go with that. I think that sounds very accurate.

Jenna Murphy 04:12

And do it with a good conscience, I guess. And not feel like that I was ruining people's lives. But doing something that was intended to hold them responsible for the things they did.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:22

I have a variety of friends that all are in similar positions. And when I chat with them, it seems like that conscience part, what you described that, you know, the reasons that you got into it, versus sometimes the realities of it are a lot of times in conflict, and it seems like that is the challenge continuously over and over and over and over again. And I'm curious how you feel about that and what you found are the challenges.

Jenna Murphy 04:57

So most of the majority of my work was spent in the misdemeanor and traffic world. That's just because the last eight and a half years, I primarily focused on battery family violence cases in the misdemeanor world, lots of driving under the influence, and then some traffic citations. My first 22 months, I did a lot of drug cases, a few aggravated assaults, things like that. I do think that there's a fair portion of the legal world that can be swayed or can have a bias to it. I'm not going to say that that doesn't exist. As a prosecutor though, I think when you have that perspective of trying to make sure that each charge you bring is warranted, that you also would steer away from some of the ridiculousness, I will say, that exists, that you just see it kind of unfold every single day. I feel like the Justice Department has moved, or the justice field has moved in from this middle of the road, like let's do fair each way to it's either horribly unjust or people are just not held accountable at all.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:05

What's an example of that? I'm super curious now.

Jenna Murphy 06:08

Well, I mean, of course, you have certain incidents where they're just going to try anything and everything to make a case, it's just really not there, let's be clear. I mean, not every case that gets sat on your desk is worthy of being prosecuted. That's what is important for a prosecutor to remember in their mind is that you cannot be gung ho for every single case. That being said, the last jury trial that I tried was a DUI marijuana case, I knew that the DUI case was iffy. But the defense attorney stood in front of the jury and said, we had marijuana. My client possessed marijuana and the jury still walked in. And I think that was the point, at least for me, where I was like, I don't know why I put my effort and time into jury trials, they bring stress, they take away time from my family, that was the disillusion that I had, or the part where that I became disillusioned with trying to find justice and understanding that one charge is why we're there. We're trying that because he doesn't, but the fact that the jury just didn't care, and I get it. Marijuana has its thing in itself. But in Georgia, it's illegal. And if someone looks at you and says, "We broke the law." I just don't understand the concept of being like, man, we don't care.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:22

What else led up for you? What else led up to you saying, "I need to make a change"?

Jenna Murphy 07:28

Becoming a mom. I'm getting married. Yes, having two babies. I have a four-year-old who just turned four in June. And I have a little over two and a half year-old. He'll be three in January. And that always, I guess, somewhere new inside of me that would change me. I just didn't realize how much it was going to change me. And it was those times that, for instance, that jury trial, that just really bothered me that I'd spent, you know... Granted, I tried to be good to them and put them to bed and do all the things. But then I may have not sat on my couch prepping for a trial that my husband sat beside me and didn't get any attention because I was working only to stand in front of a jury and a jury, like, "whatever". And that was the part that made it really hard. The burnout was extreme. I mean, I think COVID obviously had a law in it. Our jurisdiction in particular was not one that took a whole lot of time off. We got about two weeks down before we went back into actually having jail matters where we had to get people out of jail because misdemeanors you just can't keep people in jail forever. And so that was virtual, we took about 60 days, is all we took before we went back to the office full time because I went back to the office full time and told them, "Surprise! I'm pregnant again. Here we go." So and then coming back once everything loosened up post COVID, I'm proud of the sheriff's office that I worked with. But the speed and the intensity of which they were making cases, made it really hard to adequately juggle the caseload and the responsibilities I had there and my ability to be a mother. And when I got essentially, inside of me got asked, "Are you going to be a mom? Or are you going to be an employee?" My question was hands down, it was answered, "I'm going to be a mom, sorry." Like, as much as I love this job, and I love what it's offered, if you told me six years ago, I wouldn't be a criminal prosecutor anymore. I would have told you, you lost your mind. And today, here I sit. And I'm not a criminal prosecutor anymore. I don't miss that part of it. I missed the people there. But I'm proud of where I am today. And I'm proud to say that in my, gosh, month and a half, right that month and a half that I've been out of that job, I've been a better mother than I ever was throughout my entire process of being a mom and being a criminal prosecutor.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:40

That's amazing. What I'm very curious about is when you made that decision, was it that case that really caused you to ask that question and make that decision, or was there some other event that was the catalyst to you making that decision?

Jenna Murphy 09:59

No. I mean, I think it had been a slow progression over time that I knew the burnout was there and I was just trying to figure it out. And then my kids had a Thanksgiving program at school daycare. And I can remember being in court almost running to my car to get back to daycare, or to get to daycare, to be there to watch them. My mom and my dad had come from where they lived, my husband was there. And so, of course, I rushed in and I watched his program, and thankfully, I didn't miss any of it. And then I watched the clock the entire time I was there and then rushed back to go back to court. And I think that was probably the straw that really broke the camel's back, for lack of a better explanation. I just knew at that point that I couldn't juggle both things.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:56

I can definitely appreciate that. I actually had a really similar experience, too. I did actually miss something. I'm so glad you didn't, and that you made a change. I did miss an event. And honestly, to this day, I don't even remember what it is at this point, it probably doesn't matter. What matters is that I missed one event completely, and showed up just after it was completed. And then I almost missed another one. But I'm so glad that you didn't have to go through the missing first before you missed a chance. That's really cool actually.

Jenna Murphy 11:29

I'm really thankful that I didn't miss it. But at the same time, I think it was just... I realized in that moment that the setup of the prosecutor wasn't going to give me... it wasn't about being able to work from home or asking for those leniency, it was the fact that the judge set the schedule and that then we had to consult that before we could do anything. And I understand that's part of it. But there becomes a point in life where you have to decide, "Can I continue on this path, or do I have to decide that it's time for me to be some and do something different?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:03

Absolutely. What do you feel like, looking back now, were the hardest parts of making a transition?

Jenna Murphy 12:12

By far, the hardest part for me was waiting. So the one huge thing I was waiting for is I had, I think when I first decided to take this journey, I was about six months away from being able to apply for student loan forgiveness under the Public Service Loan Forgiveness. That was okay at first. I think that signing the contract, meeting with Phillip decided he was going to be my coach, that it was kind of like this renewed, okay, let's put our heads down. I can get through this. And probably about three months into that, it got real hard. It got real hard. And to the extent he and I had that conversation, "I can't do this. I have to get out now." By that point, the burnout was so bad that my therapist looked at me at one point and she's like, "I know you don't want to take meds anymore. But I need you to go back on some type of medication because you are worrying me." Not that I don't take that as I was going to hurt myself. But she could just see the physical change in me that I was depressed. I didn't want to get out of bed. I was doing what was minimally required of me to be a mom and I wasn't in a good place. And so that's when he and I started kind of shifting that transition. What can we do to get out? But the hard part I had was not having that forgiveness. I had to be in a qualifying role. And so that was by far the hardest thing, was pushing through and waiting for that opportunity. And the day I left my job, which was, this is not technically... The new job is not technically a qualifying role but the last one was. The day I walked out, my loan zeroed. Yeah. So as an Assistant Solicitor General, working for a government entity, I qualified and I had applied for and met all of the payments that I needed to. I was just waiting on a centralized way on the government to forgive the loans. So I took a risk deciding to do the senior paralegal role. But I thought, okay, here's my dive, let's go deep in like, hope I can swim. And like I said, the day I left is the day I logged in about an hour before I left my office, and it had zeroed. And so it was not a qualifying role. We had looked and looked and looked and tried to find something within that realm. And I just, we weren't able to find something that qualified, that wasn't still within the prosecution world or the government attorney world. And so nonprofits would have qualified but most of the time they didn't meet the standard of what I needed to live on. And that was where Phillip was very instrumental for me, of constantly reminding me. We set this in place. We cannot... Like I understand you want to get it out, but like, you and I have had a very level-headed conversation and you've told me what it takes to get out and we have to be true to that. And so with him there backing me up, it definitely took on an entirely new perspective for me, because I knew that I wasn't just pushing myself. But anytime I needed that reassurance, text message, email, whatever it was, I shout out to him, and he was always there to come back and be like, "Remember, this is what we're doing. It's okay, keep your head up. It will come."

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:28

When you say this, "We set this up." Expand on that for me. What was this?

Jenna Murphy 15:35

Just the progress. I mean, the ICP.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:38

Yep, Ideal Career Profile.

Jenna Murphy 15:42

Making sure I had the letters in the right order. The ICP was really big. And he just kept pushing me back to that profile that, "Here's where we really want. But here's what we have to have." And understand we're trying and we are getting closer, we're inching closer to what you need. But you cannot just completely... Unless we can make it work and justify it in another way. That at one point in time, he and I talked about the one heartbreak incident where it was supposed to be a full-time role. And then they asked for full-time with a whole lot less money than they had told me they were going to offer. And I was like, "but" and he said, "Well, if we can make it work with less hours so that we can do something, then maybe it still fits." And so of course, we tried that and it didn't work. And ultimately, that was probably one of the times he propped me up most because I was very heartbroken at that point. To feel like, you see the light at the end of the tunnel, and then all of a sudden, it's just like, "Nope, door closed." And so that was a hard day. But after two or three days of wallowing in that which I probably wallowed more than I should have, it was just a few weeks before this opportunity opened up. And I did. I had found myself through, I had one other offer, a really good offer, but it was a litigation role. And I just really didn't want to litigate anymore, it would have required more travel, it would not have given me anything more than one more day at home than I had any other role. And as a person who I was at their offer, I just told them, "I have to stand true to why I did this. I didn't do this for money. I did this because I want to be at home, I want to have freedom and flexibility. And I don't want to answer to someone else's schedule." Obviously, every job you have to answer to someone scheduled but not as much as I would have to in a role like that, in a role like I was in.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:35

I think what's really fascinating that I've observed over the years is your word choice there where you said, "This was a great opportunity. But but but..." And although it could be a great opportunity for someone, it's not actually a great opportunity for you because it didn't meet your ideal career profile. And just for context, ideal career profile, when you're thinking about that, it's just a checklist of those things that you must have in order to create an opportunity that really is a fit for you. And then also a list of your ideals or aspirations and where you're heading too. So that being said, first of all, that's phenomenal because that truly is the hardest part in many people's career change journeys. And hard to those areas that you've defined are actually true for you. It's so difficult. I mean, we've talked about many, many stories, hundreds of stories over the years where people have been forced to say no to something that was right in front of them in order to, later on, talk about delayed gratification, sometimes much, much later on, say yes to what really actually fits. And so what I'm curious about for you, when you think back on that, that situation, what did you find was actually in those moments, the hardest part about it, or that made it particularly challenging for you?

Jenna Murphy 19:08

Yeah. I think it's hard because you see an opportunity. In that particular case, it was a good bit more money than even what, well, it's a good bit more money than what I was making at the time. It was more money than I took to leave that job and go to where I am now. But having to really step back and say, "that wasn't" it was hard at first, because that's like, "Oh! That's more money than I've ever been paid." But money wasn't going to make me happy. You know, it wasn't going to get me the things, and as much as I even told them in my interview and in fact when I walked into the interview, the day before Phillip and I had talked about it and I went in like, okay, I'm gonna say no. But I'm going because I've already RSVP'd this thing and I'm not that person, I'm not just going to show you to stand you up and not come in. And so I went in, I interviewed, I kind of expected when I walked out the door that they were going to make an offer. And sure enough, when I email him the next day, he's like, "I'm really sorry, we take some time to think about it. I hate to hear that. I was about to make this offer to you." And so I think I took 24-48 hours in emailing back. And I said, "I really appreciate it. Thank you for consideration. One day, this may be a job that, you know, I can come back to you. I hope that if the opportunity ever comes up, and I want to go back into something like this, that you will consider me then." He actually came back to me about three weeks or four weeks after that. And so they had filled that position, but had another one and wanted me to reconsider if I would come to work for them. And again, I had to tell him, "You know, I understand from your perspective that you think this is a much better fit. But in reality, it really doesn't change. You know, I'm at work five days a week right now, but I'm in one county with one judge. With your job, I'm going to be in the office four days a week, but I can be in any county in this state before any judge. And I have to think about that. That's still not what I want." What I wanted when we put this together was I knew the amount of money I had to have to get out. I wanted a remote or, at the very most two days a week, an office job, really wanted a Christian organization. That was something that I wasn't sure I would find just to base upon the other things that I needed, but I really wanted somewhere that I felt like people would believe the way I believe, or at least had those ideals in their head and kind of that basis. It didn't have to be, I don't know, it didn't have to be a church organization necessarily, but just had that background. And I'm trying to think there was one more thing that he and I were talking about, I can't remember the fourth one off the top of my head. And three of those four, the only one we didn't know about the day that I accepted this offer was the Christian organization. And that was answered in my intro because this company, actually one of the co-founders, is a huge believer. In fact, when I was there Thursday, they actually had a Thursday prayer meeting at the office. And I was like, "Okay, if I didn't think I was where I was at before, I know the answer now."

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:10

It is deeply integrated.

Jenna Murphy 22:12

It is. And for that, I'm very thankful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:15

I was looking up your ideal career profile here really quick. Is it okay if I read off a couple of pieces of this?

Jenna Murphy 22:22

Sure. That's fine.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:23

So we had, "Somewhere that truly embraces the fact that I am a mother and with love on my babies too. Somewhere with an incentive or encouragement for mental and physical health, I would love for it to be acceptable for me to exercise, even if during my work hours." Pretty cool. And we had autonomy of schedule, remote work, specifically defined work time, the ability to say no when necessary, daily flexibility. So one of the things I'm curious about, what did that mean for you the ability to say no when necessary?

Jenna Murphy 22:55

I think in my last job, because of the nature of where it was, and there's no denying that we needed more staff, we need more attorneys, we need more staff, and we needed more judges, like, anybody in that office to this day will tell you that. The county is just growing at a rate that really needed that and we just weren't going to have that. And so there was not the ability to say no. You kind of had to take and embrace whatever was asked just because it had to be done. I mean, at this point, you're working with people's freedom and their constitutional rights. And so there really wasn't a whole lot of leeway to say no. So to have somewhere that I could say, "I'm sorry, my plate is loaded. Is it possible to have somebody else work on that?" was something that was really important to me. And it's funny that you read those off because I actually was able to go back and find the ones he and I were talking about right before I said yes. And they changed a little bit. And that was pay, flexibility, career path. And then the belief structure of the organization and the pay was there when they made the offer. The flexibility was the fact that I was able to work from home. They're good about, you know, I can do daycare pickup and I can do daycare drop off. I mean, the first time I remember, as I wound down at my last job, I had to do daycare drop off on one and I looked at my husband, I was like, "What do I do? Where do I take them?" Because he had done all of this for the entire four years of our oldest life. I could count on one hand the amount of time that I dropped him off or I picked him up. And the little one even less so because he was younger. Career path, I wanted something that I had a really hard time finding places to embrace the fact that I had been a litigator and they wanted me to litigate. They didn't see the connecting dots of being able to negotiate contracts and things of that nature. So actually when the director of compliance who made my offer called, she said, "Why do you want to be a senior paralegal? Why?" I said, "Honestly, I want to have more flexibility to be with my kids. I want to be able to have more time too." So I asked him not to work. But I said I'm asking not to have to answer to anybody else's schedule other than a PTO schedule that, okay, there's too many people off I'm sorry. Or, yeah, there is something important that week, we can't go that week but we can go the next week. I said, "I want that ability." So that's why I want to be a senior paralegal. And in fact, the newest general counsel that came on, he's been here, like, a week and a half ago, he said to me, he said, "Would you have wanted to be something other than a senior paralegal?" And I said, "Sure." But I just had a really hard time finding companies and organizations to embrace the fact that I had spent my career putting people in jail or prison that I had... Sure I negotiated a lot of things. But most everywhere, one would have wanted me in a litigation courtroom-style role. And I really wanted somewhere that took a major step back. I'm not gonna say that now with the kind of the progress from last week that will ever have to happen now. But at the same time taking a senior paralegal role, also, let me learn this industry, it was going to let me have that time and flexibility that I wanted, but also would have made me a big asset to learn a different area of law and expand my horizons. So that if they couldn't offer me a jump or a different place, eventually, that at least I would have those things under my belt, finally, where other places would give me that opportunity.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:32

Your progress from last week, as you said, when you went down to Arizona, you're now in a new role or a promotion. Tell me about that role. And then let's talk about how that happened.

Jenna Murphy 26:47

Okay. So yes, as of Wednesday, last week, I was asked to step in as the third Associate General Counsel for the company where I'm now working, that was a kind of a shock to me to walk in and just be content with where I was just there to onboard and meet everyone and get to know where I was working at. And then to walk into an office and say, "You have a lot of potential. You have a lot to offer. We would really like for you to step into a full attorney role instead of just being a paralegal." I guess I had fully prepared myself that that may never happen. I think that's just the... not because I didn't want to get my hopes up only to be like, "I'm just stuck here." But I kept reminding myself because I candidly wrestled with the idea of the fact that, yes, I have a bar license, but I'm taking this different title, this lower title, for lack of better terminology, I have a newfound respect for paralegals in general, because they are the bones behind that, what that process. And so they have a very instrumental role. And I will tell you, they earn every penny that they are offered by all stretches of the imagination. But I had prepared myself that that might not happen here. But what I kept reminding myself was that it was building and I don't say any of that, because I didn't go, and this going well, I'll be here this amount of time and I'm moving on. That wasn't it. Since my first role, I'd have just known that when the time is... when it happens, that time will come and I will know and that there will be no question. At this point, there will be no question in my mind that it's time for me to move on. And so I didn't know how that would work or if it would work. But I knew it was a great learning opportunity and so excited to walk into an office and immediately have someone go, "You offer so much more than you're being utilized for right now." It was shocking to me. But at the same time, it was also I guess, secretly something I knew. And it wasn't that this place didn't recognize it. It just felt like for all those ones that didn't recognize it before, or wouldn't notice it or wouldn't acknowledge it before, someone has.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:07

What does that feel like in this moment?

Jenna Murphy 29:09

It feels reassuring. It definitely adds a confidence that I didn't think I could have or didn't know if I would ever have. Because it's really hard when you put together a resume, especially now with the way resumes are kind of structured with all of your successes, not necessarily what you do, but the successes that you have. I can remember telling Phillip, "I don't know how I put on here. I put people in jail." Like that's not something that people... they're not going to look at this and be like, woohoo, you know?

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:39

It feel like a success to other people viewing the resume. Is that what you're saying?

Jenna Murphy 29:44

Right. It really does. And I mean, I had some really great opportunities at my last job, probably the most notable thing that I was able to do at my last job was, at 33-34 weeks pregnant with my oldest, I argued in front of the doors Supreme Court, that's an opportunity I will probably never get to do again. Maybe if I'd stayed in a prosecution role and doing a lot of appellate work, then I might have, but some prosecutors go their entire career and never probably don't ever get away with not submitting an appeal to the Court of Appeals, but to get to stand in front of the Supreme Court of Georgia, or the Supreme Court of their state, and present an argument. And for lack of to win it, because that's what we did. We were able, I mean, I kind of knew…

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:32

That's 33-34 weeks pregnant, no less.

Jenna Murphy 30:35

Yes. My co-workers challenged me to say, "My name is Jenna Murphy in law and we represent..." and my boss was sitting beside me. But their intention was not to be him that I was representing whether it was my baby.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:49

Yeah, that's awesome.

Jenna Murphy 30:51

But yeah, about 34 weeks pregnant and walk into the Supreme Court, I don't think I've ever been more nervous in my life. But that was kind of the highlight thing that I felt like I hung my hat on for the last job. And so that's one thing that I really like about having a new opportunity is I feel like there's more opportunities to really hang my hat in more places, and feel like I have more vast responsibilities in this role, obviously, even more so now, but to get to do more things and have more successes. Not that I wasn't successful, I mean, I had an excess of 15 to 20 jury trials, from start to finish, and for the most part been successful, and didn't win all of them, but win a lot of them. But how those translate to a resume is very different when you're trying to look at a company and say, "Knock, knock, I wanted to be legal counsel for you." And they're like, "What does that do for me?" If they have a legal department that they litigate, sure, it would have been great. But outside of that, you're kind of like, okay, thanks.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:54

Very cool. When you think about this, I guess when you think about the future, like future transitions, future anything else, what do you think the one thing that you have learned out of this transition that will help you in the future? Maybe a different way to say the question would be, what have you learned out of this transition that you think will help you in the future?

Jenna Murphy 32:16

I think I had to learn to stand up for myself, I will say that. That was one of the things in my job, I'd always just been one to keep my mouth closed and kind of roll with the punches and do what I do and be a good employee and go with it, and I had to learn. That's probably the one thing that kickstarted. One of the other things that kick started this process was that I had to learn that nobody was going to look out for me but me. It's not true. I had friends there that were looking out for me too. But I had to learn to stand out for myself and open my mouth and say things where things bothered me or where I didn't agree with things. So I wouldn't be taken advantage of.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:51

What helped you begin to learn that?

Jenna Murphy 32:53

Maybe it was just the fact that I was so burnt out, but I knew if I didn't say anything that was... I was having to put boundaries. So that was something I guess people kept saying, "Set boundaries". What you don't understand, I came into this job, my last job as a single. I had no significant other in any shape, form, or fashion when I moved here. I lived by myself, I ate, slept, lived, and breathed my job. I went home on the weekends occasionally to see my family. But beyond that, I had nothing. I could devote 150% of me to my job. Well, when you set that up, setting boundaries, pulling back, and setting those boundaries is almost impossible. So that's one thing I really have implemented going into this new job is, and I almost walked over those boundaries a little bit on Friday. And one of those is just to set my hours and not respond to things on the weekend. But I find myself that if I look at my email and their stuff there, I feel like I need to respond multiple times this weekend. I had to make myself like, okay, the emails there, but you have to leave it till time. So I may not tell them like if the walls are burning, and you need me because they're on Pacific time and I'm on East Coast time. And so if the walls are broken, and you need me after my hours, you can text me or you can call me and I'm happy to help. But at five o'clock my time or shortly thereafter, I am hitting the button where the only email inbox I see is my personal inbox, and I don't plan on looking at it until in the morning because my husband and my kids deserve more than they were getting before and I lived somewhat of my own doings but also for the fact that people were used to me being that person.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:41

You can train them to expect that, right? I think that's one thing we've never talked about on the podcast before that would be an interesting episode is the idea around, if you have previously unintentionally or intentionally trained others to expect that of you to then either make that change or decide to go someplace else. And what I've found with working with many people, but also for myself is that sometimes, most of the time, it's actually far easier to make a change and then train new people on the interactions as opposed to try to retrain. It's not impossible, but man, it is extraordinarily difficult.

Jenna Murphy 35:27

Yeah, I mean, and I think that, like my last job when I started working there, we didn't work any weekends, and we took on Saturdays. And so while it wasn't the end of the world, it was once every now and then on a rotation. For me, as a mother, it hit differently than it did for people with grandkids or people with no kids, because it wouldn't have bothered me if I had been single, or maybe we had just been married and okay, fine. My husband could do whatever he wanted with the fact that he's 10 into both kids and trying to keep things quiet. Because we were by that point, we were remote, thank goodness remote, because at first it was not, we had to go to our office to do it. But just all of those things. And now I don't have to, hopefully, ever worry about that. Because I will say that's one thing with this new general counsel who came in last week like he didn't respond all weekend to emails because he has four kids. And he says that's what's important to him. And I'm like, well, thank you. I appreciate that. Because that's what I came here for.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:31

Hey, if you love this story where we talk through and walk you through step by step how someone got to more meaningful work, then you'll absolutely love our audiobook– Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. I even got to narrate it, which was so fun. And something that I really enjoyed doing and will definitely do for future books as well. But it also contains firsthand accounts from career changers on how they made the move to more meaningful work, just like we include on the podcast here. And actually, it's been called the best audiobook experience ever by some reviewers. You can find those reviews, and the book itself on Audible, Amazon, or any other place where books are sold. Seriously, just pause this right now and go over to Amazon or Audible or wherever you want and download it. You can be reading it and started on your career change in literally seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:26

Now, here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week right here on Happen to Your Career.

Speaker 3 37:30

I think that was the hardest to basically be rejected. But then to try to internally make yourself better and then try again. So be rejected, but then just be persevering, and keep trying again and again and again.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:45

Some people are content with just showing up for work and doing the same thing for year after year, years on it. If you're here listening to this show, Happen to Your Career, of all places, I'm guessing that's probably not you. I'm guessing instead, you want to keep learning, growing both personally and professionally. But when you're looking for opportunities to learn and grow in a role no longer is providing that for you, it's really easy to lose your sense of fulfillment.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:15

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out

Anna VanRemoortel 00:01

The idea of stepping off that track felt like I was stepping into an abyss. And I didn't really know where I would go next.

Introduction 00:13

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:37

When I was a kid, I was often asked the question, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" You probably have been asked this too. And back then, I thought this was a pretty harmless question. So I was always ready for it. Architect, obviously. That's what I wanted to be, at least for a while, until studio recording, and then the next thing, and then the next thing. And again, I just thought it was a harmless question. But many years later, I started to realize that it wasn't. I've come to realize how useless this question is, and how all it really does is teach us from a really extremely young age that we have to pick the exact career we want, instead of figuring out what our strengths are, and what's really going to make us feel more fulfilled and gathering experiences and mastery and all the other things that actually helps with fulfillment, happiness, enjoyment, and often the result of this very normalized mindset of the, "what do you want to be when you grow up?" The perfect thing is that when we actually begin to study for or practice, that one career that we've always dreamed of, if it doesn't work out, we're left feeling like we failed.

Anna VanRemoortel 01:44

None of those things that I was skilled in, like, I wanted to continue. I don't want to write literature reviews anymore. I don't want to do that kind of research work. So the things that I was good at, I didn't want to continue. And so I felt like I was almost starting from nothing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:00

That's Anna VanRemoortel. Anna was a PhD student at Duke University when she first came to HTYC. She worked really hard to set herself up for success. But when she actually started the PhD program, she quickly realized "This isn't what I want to do for the rest of my life." And after having that realization, and later on, working with a coach, and really diving into her strengths, and what she actually wanted, Anna decided to go out on a limb and accept an internship at a nonprofit that she was super excited about. This led to a whirlwind of events. And thanks to a lot of intentional hard work from Anna, she ended up as an executive director of a nonprofit organization just a short 10 months later. Take a listen, as she tells what led up to her transition over this last year.

Anna VanRemoortel 02:49

So to give people listening a little bit of context of what the past few years looked like. So I was in the PhD program when I decided to leave. I left my PhD with my Master's, I was able to kind of... it took me so long to decide to leave the PhD that I ended up getting a Master's. That's kind of funny. I moved home and I ended up being unemployed for a little bit living with my family, which was my worst nightmare. At the time, I thought, like, that was like what failure looks like. And which was not. It was really great actually. And then I did a lot of volunteer work, which really helped set me up for this kind of job. So I reached out to a small organization in my hometown that was all about, like, supporting small businesses. And I just did some volunteer work with them. Then I applied for an entry-level job at an organization in Boston that has the programs in a public park, that I really admired them for years, and I ended up not getting that entry-level job. Instead, I got an internship, which was still really great, because I kind of viewed it as still like the experiment phase that is part of the career change process with you guys and that just allowed me to build some experience that wasn't academic and get my foot in the door with Boston nonprofits in general. And then I also was so lucky that during that experience, I had a supervisor that was just so amazing. And she helped me as I was applying for new jobs. And she was kind of another career coach. So that was super great. And then I threw all of this, I was really focusing on Main Streets organizations. So Main Streets are, it's kind of this umbrella term to describe organizations that focus on a commercial district and supporting local businesses and revitalizing that area. And I was really interested in that. And so Boston has 20 of them. And I started just reaching out to people on LinkedIn that were directors of these Main Streets. And I actually got to talk to a bunch of them. They're all super open to having me ask questions. And one of them was actually an alum of my undergrad University. And so we actually met up for coffee. And I just asked her about her job and everything and we really connected and she was like, "Oh. By the way, we're going to be hiring a program manager in a little bit. The job description isn't posted yet, but just let you know, this might be an opportunity." I'm like, "Oh, that's amazing." And so from that kind of casual conversation, which I wasn't even asking for a job, that she led me to a job to apply for. So I applied through them. And then during the process, I got into the manager position in November. But during that whole transition, the current E.D left, it wasn't a super great fit. So she moved on to do some other work. And so we were actually without an Executive Director for a little bit. One of our board members stepped in as interim E.D and I worked with her. And we actually started hiring for E.D. We put the job description out, I was part of the interview process. And we interviewed a few candidates. And we just didn't feel like it was a great fit. And actually one of the other managers in the organization, he was like, "What about Anna? Like, what if Anna just steps into the role?" And I was like, "I would be interested in that. I kind of imagined doing that in, maybe, like two or three years, but I'd be up for the challenge if it was offered to me, and if I had support from the board." And so throughout all of that, the board decided to offer me the job. And so then, about a month ago, I stepped into the E.D role. And so now I am the Executive Director of the organization. And it was definitely a lot of growth and transition. And I'm still, like, growing and getting used to this role. But it's so exciting now, like, I love doing this kind of work. I love managing the organization and just thinking about where I wanted to go in the future because it has such a rich history of impact in this community. And so it's been so great to now be in the position where I can help lead it into the next year.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:50

What led up to the point where you were wanting to make a change?

Anna VanRemoortel 06:55

Yeah. So I was at Duke University in their Sociology PhD program. And so for many years, pretty much throughout my late teens and early 20s, I really want to be a sociology professor. I love studying prosocial behavior, like what motivated people to take on certain actions and to intentionally do good things, intentionally build community. And I really liked researching that. I loved researching in my undergrad. And I had this goal in mind that I wanted to, like, be like my professors in undergrad, and go for that PhD. And so I spent the second half of my undergrad and a year between undergrad and grad school, really working towards this goal. I secured funding, I worked for professors with research assistant positions. And then I spent pretty much that year leading up to grad school applying for different programs and finding the best fit for me. And when I got there, I pretty quickly realized that it wasn't for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:52

Okay, tell me about that. What took place that caused you to realize? It sounds like there were some specific events. What happened?

Anna VanRemoortel 08:00

Yeah, I think one big piece is it was really my first time researching full-time. So before when I was doing research, I had all these other things going on too, that really kept me engaged in my community, that were pretty social activities. And this was the first time I was doing research full time, like, 40-hour work week, of course, it was way more than 40 hours, as you could probably expect. And so that was like, the first time it, kind of, just became my everything. And I realized that the issues I really cared about, and I was researching, I didn't really feel that connected to. It kind of felt like the research process made me take a step back. And I felt pretty removed from it. And I think part of it is like, you kind of have to do that as a researcher to produce good research and to be objective. But I just felt like I wasn't connecting with issues in the way I wanted to be connecting with them.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:52

That's fascinating, actually, because what you're saying is that, hey, I initially went in and thought I would be more connected with the issues but research, by definition, in many ways, you sort of have to take a removed more objective stance. Maybe not perfectly, but it was taking you further away from the ways that you wanted to be connected as opposed to closer. So that's really fascinating.

Anna VanRemoortel 09:19

Yeah. And I think I learned a lot about myself through this process because before I'd always kind of identified as an introvert. And so the idea of reading and researching my whole life, and that kind of sounded good. But I didn't factor in the fact that, like, I have been doing a lot of other social positions throughout my life as I've been doing researching before I took it on for a full-time job. And so my life became pretty isolating with research. And it was... I felt like I just couldn't really connect with people and I wasn't getting the energy that I wanted to from my research experience. I was missing that personal connection.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:41

Let me ask you about the introvert piece. Do you still identify as more of an introvert or lean more towards introversion? Or how do you think about yourself now, after that set of experiences?

Anna VanRemoortel 10:10

Yeah, I don't think I'm an introvert anymore. I think I thought it was about, like, being shy, but I think I've, like, realized that it's really about more where I get energy. And I realized, like, throughout my life, like, stuff like this, this is what I get my energy from. It's meeting with people. When I was doing research, when I was interviewing people in a qualitative method, that's where I was getting my energy from. It wasn't really the work alone, like, combing through data and writing up a literature review that felt very draining for me after a while.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:43

It wasn't about the research, it was about the interactions. It sounds like.

Anna VanRemoortel 10:47

Yeah. And that was kind of the big thing that I learned throughout this whole process. Like I'm pretty young, I'm 26. And so I think I was still very, like, influenced by my college career program where, you know, at that age, people are like, "Oh, what are you interested in? What do you want to do?" And your answer is kind of like, "Oh, I majored in Sociology and Economics. And my career path is kind of defined by these topics I was interested in, not actual tasks." So I kind of wish that someone asked the 20-year-old version of me, like, put aside what you're interested in, like, what's your favorite part of the day? Where do you get your energy? Like, what tasks do you most look forward to? And if it's having a meeting with someone, like, that says a lot. If it's reading, like, that also says a lot. And I think focusing on tasks versus big concepts, that was a mindset shift that helped me during the career change process that led me to a career that I actually enjoy.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:42

So then it sounded like you were in the PhD program, recognizing that wasn't necessarily where you want it to be. What caused you to make the final decision that, "Hey, I need to do something about this. I cannot continue to be here in this place, and this way."?

Anna VanRemoortel 12:01

It was a long process. And honestly, like, so I started my PhD the fall of 2019. And a few months later, I found your podcast, because I was just like, I knew I wasn't happy. I didn't know if I wanted to leave the program, like I was thinking, "Oh, maybe I just need a new advisor, or I need to be at a different university, maybe I need to think about the methodology I'm using and find something that's more exciting." But there was like this little voice in the back of my head saying, like, "Maybe you can quit." But that was just such a scary thought for me. I've been pretty much, like, building up to this for many years, and I thought that leaving it would just be failure. And I didn't really see a lot of other people around me doing something like this, like, I saw my peers being, like, really enthusiastic about their work. And so it just felt, like, really wrong of me to not be excited about it and want to leave. And so I actually started listening to your podcast in 2019. I listened to it for maybe like, a year and a half or two years before I actually reached out to you guys. And that was just like, a way of normalizing leaving a career. Like I needed to hear experiences of people who left their careers, and it was fine. Like I needed to hear what it's like on the other side in order to just get out of my head and be able to talk about it out loud.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:18

What do you think after going through that type of experience? I'm just curious about your opinion on this because I've been forming my own hypothesis for years and years and years and years. But why do you think it is so, whatever the opposite of normalized would be, the unnormalized in our society, that you could leave the PhD program, and that would be okay, or socially acceptable, or whatever word you'd throw in there. But why do you think it is so much the opposite way, or we feel it so much the opposite way?

Anna VanRemoortel 13:51

It's so interesting, because I knew in my mind, objectively, people who get PhDs, like, statistically don't end up in tenure track positions, like, that's a very small percentage of people that get that position that everyone's working towards. But I think this idea of, I think, I've just been, like, socialized to always want to pursue one thing in my career. And another big part was, I was told I had potential and I was like, people praise me like, "Oh, you're at Duke. That's awesome. You're gonna get your PhD from Duke. That's a great thing to have on your resume." And so I was really scared to let go of that, even though I knew the success rate of what I was going for was incredibly low. I wish I was worried of wasting my potential, or not living up to what people said I could live up to. And also, like, I knew the structure. I had been a student pretty much my entire life. And so being a professional student, I knew how to play the role of the student very well. And so the idea of stepping off that track felt like I was stepping into an abyss, and I didn't really know where I would go next.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:58

You and I had talked, and I remember you saying something about that, like, that stepping off the abyss. Or you said, "I don't even really know what I'm stepping into." And that wasn't exactly how you put it. But what about that made it scary or uncomfortable or whatever at the time? And then tell me a little bit about what you ended up doing in order to move through that because I think it can be scary.

Anna VanRemoortel 15:26

Yeah, I think one big piece was that I just had my identity so tied up with academia, and I had like my resume and my skills so tied up in academia. And so when I looked at my skills, I thought they could only apply in an academic context. Like, I looked at my experience, I was like, "Oh, I have experience writing literature reviews, and like gathering data, and writing research reports and proposals." And I kind of thought that my resume that I built, I had to build off of that to find a new job. And it was frustrating, because none of those things that I was skilled in, I wanted to continue. I don't want to write literature reviews anymore. I don't want to do that kind of research work. So the things that I was good at, I didn't want to continue. And so I felt like I was almost starting from nothing, which now I realized wasn't true. And that's what was really helpful working with Alistair, like, we started off from the very broad strengths base kind of approach where we did StrengthsFinder. And I just was able to separate myself from the academic skills and focus more on, like, my broad strengths that I had been developing from, I guess, academia, but everything else I've done, like hobbies and volunteer opportunities. And once I was able to focus on that, and think about my strengths, versus my actual resume experience, that was what allowed me to kind of shift and think about new opportunities that I could be good at. Before I was like, only looking at research positions, I was like, "Oh, I've experienced the research. I should be looking at research positions, but I didn't want to be doing research." And so shifting to that strengths-based approach, that's what allowed me to look at new opportunities.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:07

That's such a great point. And a little bit of context for everyone else listening because I found one of the biggest confusions around strengths is often we have a tendency to think about strengths as skills. Because skills are, as you pointed out, like, that's what we see, and that's what we're experienced in, and that's what we're doing. Like you're writing the papers, and you are like doing all the things, and then we can visibly see those, like, if we think about it sort of as an iceberg a little bit. Like that's the tip of the iceberg. However, strengths are not skills, they are the things that are lying under the surface that make you predisposed to be better at some things versus another. So the reason I wanted to point that out, though, is you made such a great point about the things that you were good at, were not the things you wanted to spend your time doing. And I think that's such a confusing thing because people are like, "These are my strengths." No, they're not. They're actually just the skills and skills are good, but that doesn't mean you have to spend the rest of your life doing it just because you happen to have the skill. So when you have that realization, how did that impact what you thought you might be looking for from there on out?

Anna VanRemoortel 18:23

I think when I realized that, I was able to look at my past experience and like the things I've done that I wasn't necessarily paid to do. So I took my volunteer experience more seriously. I took even like the things I did when I was a college student, I looked back at those experiences and I thought like, "What was my favorite thing I did when I was a college student?" And I remember working in ResLife, and I just loved connecting with people and building community and having those like in-person interactions, and that I was not getting that in grad school. And so I think the shift from skills and like a very resume focus, like this program is not about fixing your resume and cover letter, which is... if I signed up for those kinds of career change programs, like, I would not be where I am today. I needed a shift to strength and to take my unpaid experience. And just like my general interest and like how I presented myself with my friends and family, I needed to take that experience more seriously.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:22

Well, I think that you mentioned identity just a minute ago. So go back to something that you had said and that was a struggle for you to let go how you were thinking about yourself and what was wrapped in your identity. The thing that people don't realize about identity, most of us don't realize that your experiences regardless of whether they are volunteer, they're paid, they're at one type of role, they're at another type of role, they're out of a PhD program, whatever they are, like, it's much healthier to look at my identity and the combination of my experiences as opposed to I do this thing or only look at certain type of experiences because we really get wrapped up in that. But it's much healthier to say, okay, nobody can take away all my collective set of experiences, whatever they are. And that can be a portion of my identity. And that is so much more of an effective approach, I'll say, but also a healthier approach too, like, there's a lot of great evidence around that at this point.

Anna VanRemoortel 20:23

Yeah, I think that was so important when I was changing careers. Because if my identity was tied to my academic job, and I felt like I was just not excited about it, I didn't feel like I was doing good work, because I wasn't excited about it. So if I tied my identity too closely, but that I was not feeling good about who I was as a person or who I was as a professional. And so I really needed to just separate that and kind of see myself beyond an academic role, and then rebuild that confidence, because I definitely lost a lot of confidence in grad school, because I tie my identity so closely to that. And it's tough with a career change. Because when you're leaving one career, and you're like, untying your identity from that, you can feel really lost. And I spent some months unemployed. And so like, what am I going to tie my identity to now about experiences I actually enjoyed in my past and not my current job? Or my employment status?

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:18

Yeah. Absolutely. It makes me think of a totally different question. And I'm very curious, as you got into the actual transition, what would you say were the hardest parts for you?

Anna VanRemoortel 21:32

Yeah. I think the hardest part was everything that led up, maybe, like the first and second session with Alistair, like, I was very wishy-washy. I even met with him, and I was like, "I think I'm gonna leave." I'm kind of like, still testing the waters. And he was like, make a decision by the next session. And I was thinking, like, "Oh my God, I can't do that. I can't make a decision like this. This is too big." I thought I needed more time to gather more data, ask for more advice. But honestly, I didn't. Oh, my God. So I think the challenge was moving from a very passive role to a more active one, where I was actually taking a change and making something happen for myself, because I was so good at consuming career content. And I listened to you guys for like a year and a half before I did anything, and I read books on career change. If there's a book on leaving academia, I already own all of them. So I was very good at just consuming that content. And I think that kind of speaks for my experience being a grad student, too. So the most challenging part was in the first few sessions where Alistair was like, "Alright, this is the end of the passive part and the beginning of a more active role." So I made a decision to leave the program. And then I started telling my friends and family, like, I'm making a career change. And once I was out of my head, and it was out in the world, like, oh, I put this out there, everyone knows about it now, it was so much easier to just be honest with people. I felt like I was just hiding it for so long, and I was ashamed of wanting to leave a PhD. And it makes sense. Some people said, like, "No, don't leave. You're going to regret this." I had professors telling me that I would regret it. But then I also had people tell me, like, "No, you're not going to regret this." I had other people who have completed their PhD say, "I regret saying you should leave now." So it was really hard to step away from all the advice I was getting and to just focus on myself and actually just taking a step.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:31

I think that's something we haven't really talked a lot about on the podcast, particularly the idea of, once you have made that decision and once you start interacting with other people in an active way, that it feels different in some way. So many wonderful ways, I would say, maybe there's some less wonderful ways. And certainly, it's harder to go and live what you actually want. However, I very much felt what you described that I sort of felt like when I was in... It's been quite a period of time ago. But you know, when I was in a role where I stayed about 18 months, it felt like I was living a double life. I felt like I was not honest with everyone else, like, my wife and my boss and my friends and everything else. I felt like I was having to hide this really terrible thing almost.

Anna VanRemoortel 24:27

Yeah. And I remember like, even before I met up with Alistair for those first few sessions, I was still doing, like, networking calls, like, I would often, like, reach out to people that I thought were doing interesting work. But I would always approach those conversations like, "I'm a grad student, and I'm interested in your work", and they were kind of confused, like, "My work is not what you would be doing in six years with a PhD, like, why are you interested in my job?" And I felt awkward and kind of ashamed and I felt like I couldn't tell them the truth. And then once I finally just kind of put it out in the world, and then I could approach those conversations. And I was like, "Hi, I'm a grad student, and I'm thinking about leaving my program, and I'm interested in the work you do." And then we're able to have an honest conversation. And it was just, I got so much more out of those conversations, because I was honest with them about where I was at in this whole process and I didn't feel like I was hiding anything.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:22

That's really interesting. It shows up too in the real world, it shows up in interactions. And actually, before you and I had hit the record button, you said something to me about, like, yeah, even my, like family and friends have told me I seem happier. And then I had told you that, yeah, like you literally sound different, you literally sound happier. And you sound different compared to when you and I chatted all those months ago. So, that's just evidence of what you're saying. I think, like, if you can be more of yourself, and not have to feel like you're hiding something, or however that shows up for different people, then it changes those interactions.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:03

How did you adapt that into as you started doing interviews, as you started having other interactions? Functionally, how did you adapt that type of mindset or approach where you're willing to share more and have more authentic conversations? Was there anything that you did in order to make that easier for yourself?

Anna VanRemoortel 26:03

Yeah. And I think that kind of authenticity frame was present throughout all of the modules that I went through with Happen To Your Career, like, I remember, even with the networking, like the testing your career, those kinds of conversations, I felt like I could just approach it with more authenticity, and even like interviewing, I felt like, I just had better practice not hiding things throughout this whole career change process. I was able to go into an interview, and just be more authentic and connect with people and be like, "These are the strengths that I know I have. This is what I know your organization needs. And it just felt like more of a collaboration, like, let's work together. Like, let's see if this is a good fit." And I wasn't like, "just give me anything, I'll take any job. Like I'd be happy with anything." I was just much more open about where I was, what I needed from a job, and what they can offer. And if it was a good fit, great. If it wasn't, I was happy to learn that then instead of actually taking any job that they would give me.

Anna VanRemoortel 27:23

I think a few things. I think the first step was just rebuilding confidence and thinking of myself as a professional that was worthy of people's time. And honestly, like a lot of this happened before I went through coaching, like, grad school, it was a tough time. Like, my mental health wasn't great. And so I worked with a therapist for two and a half years. And that was really essential because I just needed to process a lot of things and figure out who I was outside of the student role. Because most of my life, I've kind of been a student, which has been very low on the totem pole of any organization. And so I felt like, I've kind of learned this behavior of acting like a student and coming into these conversations like, "Oh, well, I'll take whatever you can offer me, thanks for even talking to me." And I had to really separate that and regain some confidence again. And then with you guys, the scripts really helped a lot. Like I remember, even when I was negotiating my salary for the first job I had with my current organization, I was watching the videos that you've recorded about, like how to have these conversations. And I had never seen them framed that way. I always thought I'd be going into, like, an interview or a salary negotiation with this weird power dynamic. Like I was asking them for something and just hoping that they would give me anything. But the way your organization frames and all the modules and even the email templates, it's just framed as like a collaboration, where I have more confidence, which makes me look like a more attractive candidate too. And then even when I was negotiating my salary for my manager role a few months ago, like, I understand that nonprofits have limited budgets. I understand that they couldn't offer me, you know, a million dollars. And so I was upfront, I was like, "I understand that the budget is limited. But let's work together and see if we can make this an attractive offer by being a bit more creative with vacation days and professional development. Like, what are some other tools that we can use to make this a great opportunity for both of us?" And so that mindset shifts both from like, regaining confidence, and then also using those scripts. That is what has just, it's really changed the way I approach conversations today, too.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:39

I've heard that feedback quite a bit where like, I was just having a conversation with another person who's been on the podcast in the past, Laura Morrison, and she had said something similar in that, "Hey, this actually, literally, changed how I..." Like, the approach that I was using to be more authentic and just try and work together and collaboratively and in a partnership to figure out how to create wonderful opportunities. Like, I've now found that over the last four years, I'm using that literally in my job every day with that same type of approach and mentality and some of the skill sets that she built during her change. And that was really interesting to hear it in that way. But it sounds like that was a little bit the case for you, too, or has been. You've done such a great job with this through doing things that many people in the rest of the world might not do, and are difficult, and it's created a different set of results for you, which is so wonderful. So I really appreciate you taking the time and coming and sharing your story and experiences. And I'm so excited that this transition led to even something better within a few short months too. It's so cool to see.

Anna VanRemoortel 30:53

Yeah, it's been a wild ride. And I'm so grateful to you and like your team and Alistair, it was so great to go through this process with a team. Grad school can be isolating. Leaving a career and starting something new can be really isolating and like this program, career changed, this is what I needed during this time. This is what allowed me to actually want something better. Like, if I hadn't reached out to you guys, I think I would still be, like, getting my PhD.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:20

In PhD land. Yes.

Anna VanRemoortel 31:22

Which, like, isn't bad. I mean, like, all my friends who are in the program, like they're having a good time. That's great, very happy for them. It's a great program. But yeah, it just wasn't a good fit for me. And I'm really happy I did something about it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:34

Hey, if you love this story where we talk through and walk you through step by step how someone got to more meaningful work, then you'll absolutely love our audiobook– Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. I even got to narrate it, which was so fun. And something that I really enjoyed doing and will definitely do for future books as well. But it also contains firsthand accounts from career changers on how they made the move to more meaningful work, just like we include on the podcast here. And actually, it's been called the best audiobook experience ever by some reviewers. You can find those reviews, and the book itself on Audible, Amazon, or any other place where books are sold. Seriously, just pause this right now and go over to Amazon or Audible or wherever you want and download it. You can be reading it and started on your career change in literally seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:34

Now here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week right here on Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 3 32:40

There comes a point in life where you have to decide, "Can I continue on this path? Or do I have to decide that it's time for me to do something different?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:47

When you're working in a career you once loved, it can be hard to come to terms with leaving, even if you're feeling burned out. Many times, it takes coming to a crossroads where you're forced to decide– should you stay or go?

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:03

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Anna VanRemoortel 00:01

The things that I was, you know, good at, I didn't want to continue. And so I felt like I was almost starting from nothing.

Introduction 00:13

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:37

When I was a kid, I was often asked the question, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" You probably been asked this too. And back then, I thought this was a pretty harmless question. So I was always ready for it. Architect, obviously, is what I wanted to be, at least for a while, until studio recording, and then the next thing and then the next thing. And again, I just thought it was a harmless question. But many years later, I started to realize that it wasn't. I've come to realize how useless this question is, and how all it really does is teach us from a really extremely young age that we have to pick the exact career we want, instead of figuring out what our strengths are, and what's really going to make us feel more fulfilled, and gathering experiences and mastery and all the other things that actually helps with fulfillment, happiness, enjoyment. And often the result of this very normalized mindset of the "what do you want to be when you grow up?", the perfect thing is that when we actually begin to study for, or practice that one career that we've always dreamed of, if it doesn't work out, we're left feeling like we failed.

Anna VanRemoortel 01:44

Where do you get your energy? Like, what tasks do you most look forward to? And if it's having a meeting with someone, like, that says a lot. If it's reading, like, that also says a lot. And I think focusing on tasks versus big concepts that was a mindset shift that helped me during the career change process that led me to a career that I actually enjoy.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:04

That's Anna VanRemoortel. Anna was a PhD student at Duke University, when she first came to HTYC. She worked really hard to set herself up for success. But when she actually started the PhD program, she quickly realized "This isn't what I want to do for the rest of my life." And after having that realization, and later on working with a coach, and really diving into her strengths, and what she actually wanted, Anna decided to go out on a limb and accept an internship at a nonprofit that she was super excited about. This led to a whirlwind of events. And thanks to a lot of intentional hard work from Anna, she ended up as an executive director of a nonprofit organization just a short 10 months later. Take a listen, as she tells what led up to her transition over this last year.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:53

For a little bit of context here, you entered into one role with your organization. And just really recently, even in the space where, like, we could get the scheduled, getting your promotion, tell me a little bit about that. What took place that allowed you to be able to take advantage of that opportunity and having it lined out? Because it sounded like it's even better opportunity for you and your strengths and what you want.

Anna VanRemoortel 03:20

Absolutely, yeah. So to give, like, people listening a little bit of context of what the past few years looked like. So, like, at the end of spring 2021, I was in the PhD program, I decided to leave, I left my PhD with my masters, I was able to, kind of... it took me so long to decide to leave the PhD that I ended up getting a master's. So that's kind of funny. I moved home and I ended up being unemployed for a little bit, living with my family, which was my worst nightmare at the time. I thought, like, that was, like, what failure looks like. And which was not, it was really great actually. And then I did a lot of volunteer work, which really helped set me up for this kind of job. So I reached out to a small organization, my hometown that was all about, like, supporting small businesses. And I just did some volunteer work with them. Then I applied for an entry level job at an organization in Boston that has the program's a public park. And I really admired them for years, and I ended up not getting that entry level job and, instead, I got an internship, which was still really great because I, kind of, viewed it as still, like, the experiment phase that, like, as part of the career change process with you guys. And that just allowed me to build some experience that wasn't academic and get my foot in the door with Boston nonprofits in general. And then I also was so lucky that during that experience, I had a supervisor that was just so amazing. And she helped me as I was applying for new jobs, and she was, kind of, another career coach. So that was super great. And then I threw all of this, I was really focusing on Main Street organizations. So Main Streets are it's kind of this umbrella term to describe organizations that focus on a commercial district and supporting local businesses and revitalizing that area. And I was really interested in that. And so Boston has 20 of them. And I started just reaching out to people on LinkedIn that were directors of these Main Streets. And I actually got to talk to a bunch of them, they're all super open to having me ask questions. And one of them was actually alum, an alum of my undergrad University. And so we actually met up for coffee. And I just, like, asked her about her job and everything, and we really connected. And she was like, "Oh, by the way, like, we're gonna be hiring a program manager in a little bit. The job description isn't posted yet, but just let you know, this might be an opportunity." I'm like, "Oh, that's amazing." And so from that kind of casual conversation, which I wasn't even asking for a job, that she led me to a job to apply for. So I applied through them. And then during the process, I got into the manager position in November. But during that whole transition, the current IDI left, it wasn't like a super great fit. So she moved on to do some other work. And so we were actually without an executive director for a little bit. One of our board members stepped in as interim ED, and I worked with her. And we actually started hiring for an ED. We put the job description out, I was part of the interview process. And we interviewed a few candidates. And we just didn't feel like it was a great fit. And actually one of the other managers in the organization, he was like, "What about Anna? Like, what if Anna just steps into the role?" And I was like, "I would be interested in that I, kind of, imagined doing that, and maybe like two or three years, but I'd be up for the challenge if there was like, offered to me, and if I had, like, support from the board. And so throughout all of that, the board decided to offer me the job, and this was like early March. And so then, about a month ago, I stepped into the IDI role. And so now I am the executive director of the organization. And it was definitely a lot of growth and transition. And I'm still, like, growing, getting used to this role, but it's so exciting now. Like I love doing this kind of work. I love managing the organization and just thinking about where I wanted to go in the future, because it has such a rich history of, like, impact in this community. And so it's been so great to now be in the position where I can help lead it into the next year.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:32

What led up to the point where you were wanting to make a change?

Anna VanRemoortel 07:37

Yeah. So I was at Duke University in their Sociology PhD program. And so for many years, pretty much throughout my late teens and early 20s, I really want to be a sociology professor. I love studying pro social behavior, like what motivated people to take on certain actions and to intentionally do good things, intentionally build community. And I really liked researching that. I loved researching in my undergrad. And I had this goal in mind that I wanted to, like, be like my professors in undergrad, and go for that PhD. And so I spent the second half of my undergrad and a year between undergrad and grad school, like, really working towards this goal. I secured funding, I worked for professors with research assistant positions. And then I spent pretty much that year leading up to grad school applying for different programs and finding the best fit for me. And when I got there, I pretty quickly realized that it wasn't for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:35

Okay, tell me about that. What took place that caused you to realize? It sounds like there were some specific events. What happened?

Anna VanRemoortel 08:45

Yeah, I think one big piece is it was really my first time researching full time. So like before when I was doing research, I had all these other things going on, too, that, like, really kept me engaged in my community, that were pretty social activities. And this was the first time I was doing research, like, full time, like, 40-hour work week, of course, it was like, way more than 40 hours, as you could probably expect. And so that was like, the first time it, kind of, just became my everything. And I realized that the issues I really cared about, and I was researching, I didn't really feel that connected to. It kind of felt like the research process made me take a step back. And I felt pretty removed from it. And I think part of it is like, you kind of have to do that as a researcher to produce good research and to be objective. But I just felt like I wasn't, like, connecting with issues in the way I wanted to be connecting with them.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:39

That's fascinating, actually, because what you're saying is that, hey, I initially went in and thought I would be more connected with the issues but research, by definition, in many ways, you sort of have to take a removed more objective stance. Maybe not perfectly, but it was taking you further away from the ways that you wanted to be connected as opposed to closer. So that's really fascinating.

Anna VanRemoortel 10:06

Yeah. And I think I learned a lot about, like, myself through this process because before I'd always kind of identified as an introvert. And so the idea of reading and researching my whole life, and that kind of sounded good. But I didn't factor the fact that, like, I have been doing a lot of other social positions throughout my life as I've been doing researching before I took it on for a full time job. And so my life became pretty isolating with research. And it was... I felt like I just couldn't really connect with people. And I wasn't getting, like, the energy I wanted to, like, from my research experience, like, I was missing that personal connection.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:44

Let me ask you about the introvert piece. Do you still identify as more of an introvert or lean more towards introversion? Or how do you think about yourself now, after that set of experiences?

Anna VanRemoortel 11:00

Yeah, I don't think I'm an introvert anymore. I think I thought it was about, like, being shy, but I think I've, like, realized that it's really about more where I get energy. And I realized, like, throughout my life, like, stuff like this, this is what I get my energy from. It's like meeting with people. When I was doing research, when I was interviewing people in a qualitative method, like, that's where I was getting my energy from. It wasn't really the work alone, like, combing through data and, like, writing up a literature review that felt very draining for me after a while.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:33

It wasn't about the research, it was about the interactions, it sounds like.

Anna VanRemoortel 11:37

Yeah. And that was kind of the big thing that I learned throughout this whole process. Like I'm pretty young, I'm 26. And so I think I was still very, like, influenced by my college career program where, you know, at that age, like, people are like, "Oh, what are you interested in? Like, what do you want to do?" And your answer is kinda like, "Oh, like, I majored in sociology and economics.?" And my career path is kind of defined by these topics I was interested in, not actual tasks. So I kind of wish that someone asked like, the 20 year old version of me like, "Okay, like, put aside what you're interested in, like, what's your favorite part of the day? Where do you get your energy? Like, what tasks do you most look forward to? And if it's having a meeting with someone, like, that says a lot. If it's reading, like, that also says a lot." And I think focusing on tasks versus big concepts, that was a mindset shift that helped me during the career change process that led me to a career that I actually enjoy.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:34

So then it sounded like you were in the PhD program, recognizing that it wasn't necessarily where do you want it to be. What caused you to make the final decision that, "hey, I need to do something about this, I cannot continue to be here in this place, in this way."

Anna VanRemoortel 12:53

It was a long process, and honestly, like, so I started my PhD, the fall of 2019. And a few months later, I found your podcast, because I was just, like, I knew I wasn't happy. I didn't know if I wanted to leave the program, like, I was thinking, "Oh, maybe I just need a new advisor, or I need to be at a different university, maybe I need to think about the methodology I'm using and find something that's more exciting." But there was like this little voice in the back of my head saying, like, "maybe you can quit." But that was just such a scary thought for me. I've been pretty much, like, building up to this for many years, and I thought that leaving it would just be failure. And I didn't really see a lot of other people around me doing something like this, like, I saw my peers being, like, really enthusiastic about their work. And so it just felt, like, really wrong of me to not be excited about it and want to leave. And so I actually started listening to your podcast in 2019. I listened to it for maybe like, a year and a half or two years before I actually reached out to you guys. And that was just like, a way of normalizing leaving career, like, I needed to hear experiences of people who left their career, and it was fine. Like, I needed to hear what it's like on the other side in order to just get out of my head and be able to talk about it out loud.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:11

Why do you think after going through that type of experience, I'm just curious about your opinion on this, because I've been forming my own hypothesis for years and years and years and years. But why do you think it is so, whatever the opposite of normalized would be, the unnormalized in our society, that you could leave the PhD program, and that would be okay, or socially acceptable, or whatever word you'd throw in there, but why do you think is so much the opposite way or we feel it so much the opposite way?

Anna VanRemoortel 14:46

It's so interesting, because I knew in my mind, like, objectively, people who get PhDs, like, statistically don't end up in tenure track positions, like, that's a very small percentage of people that, like, get that position that everyone's working towards. But I think this idea of, I think I've just been, like, socialized to always want to pursue, like, one thing in my career. And another big part was like, I was told I had, like, potential, and I was like, people praise me like, "Oh, you're at Duke. Like, that's awesome. You're gonna get your PhD from Duke. Like, that's a great thing to have on your resume." And so I was really scared to let go of that, even though I knew the success rate of what I was going for was incredibly low. I was just worried of, like, wasting my potential, or like not living up to what people said I could live up to. So...

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:36

Your interest in.

Anna VanRemoortel 15:37

Yeah. And also, like, I knew the structure. Like, I had been a student pretty much my entire life. And so being a professional student, I just... I knew how to play the role of the student very well. And so the idea of stepping off that track felt like I was stepping into an abyss. And I didn't really know where I would go next.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:58

I don't remember exactly how you put it. But you and I got to chat before we started working together after you've been listening to the podcast for quite a period of time, which by the way, this is super fun to now get to chat with you before the podcast, after you had been a listener for... yeah, so you and I had talked and I remember you saying something about that, like, that stepping off the abyss. Or you said, I don't even really know what I'm stepping into. And that wasn't exactly how you put it. But, what about that made it scary or uncomfortable or whatever, at the time? And then tell me a little bit about what you ended up doing in order to move through that? Because I think it can be scary.

Anna VanRemoortel 16:44

Yeah, I think one big piece was that I just had my identity so tied up with academia, and I had like my resume and my skills, so tied up in academia. And so when I looked at my skills, I thought they could only apply in an academic context. Like, I looked at my experience, I was like, oh, I have experience writing literature reviews, and like gathering data and writing research reports and proposals. And I kind of thought that that my resume that I built, I had to build off of that to find a new job. And it was frustrating, because none of those things that I was skilled in, like, I wanted to continue, like, I don't want to write literature reviews anymore, I don't want to do that kind of research work. So the things that I was, you know, good at, I didn't want to continue. And so I felt like I was almost starting from nothing, which now I realized wasn't true. And that was what was really helpful working with Alistair, like, we started off from a very broad, like, strengths based kind of approach where we did StrengthsFinder. And I just was able to separate myself from the academic skills and focus more on my broad strengths that I had been developing from, yes, academia, but everything else I've done, like, hobbies and volunteer opportunities. And once I was able to focus on that, and think about my strengths, versus my actual resume experience, that was what allowed me to kind of shift and think about new opportunities that I could be good at. Before I was like, only looking at research positions, I was like, "Oh, I have experienced the research, I should be looking at research positions, but I didn't want to be doing research." And so shifting to that strengths based approach, that's what allowed me to look at new opportunities.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:29

That's such a great point. And a little bit of context for everyone else listening because one of the, I found one of the biggest confusions around strengths is often we have a tendency to think about strengths as skills. Because skills are, as you pointed out, like, that's what we see, and that's what we're experiencing, and that's what we're doing. Like, you're writing the papers, and you are like doing all the things, and then we can visibly see those, like if we think about it sort of as an iceberg a little bit, like those are the tip of the iceberg. However, strengths are not skills, they are the things that are lying under the surface that make you predisposed to be better at some things versus another. So the reason I wanted to point that out, though, is you made such a great point about the things that you were good at were not the things you wanted to spend your time doing. And I think that's such a confusing thing, because people are like, "these are my strengths." No, they're not. They're actually just the skills and skills are good, but that doesn't mean you have to spend the rest of your life doing it just because you happen to have the skill. So when you had that realization, how did that impact what you thought you might be looking for from there on out?

Anna VanRemoortel 19:45

I think when I realized that I was able to look at my past experience that and, like, the things I've done that I wasn't necessarily paid to do. So I took my volunteer experience more seriously. I took even like the things I did when I was a college student, like I looked back at those experiences, and I thought, like, what was my favorite thing I did when I was a college student. And I remember like working in ResLife, and I just loved connecting with people and building community and having those like in person interactions, and that I was not getting that in grad school. And so I think the shift from skills and, like, a very resume focus, like, this program is not about fixing your resume and cover letter, which is, if I signed up for those kinds of career change programs, like, I would not be where I am today, like, I needed a shift to strengths, and to take my unpaid experience. And just like my general interests, and like how I presented myself with my friends and family, I needed to take that experience more seriously.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:46

Well, I think that... you mentioned identity just a minute ago. So go back to something that you had said, and that was a struggle for you to let go how you were thinking about yourself and what was wrapped up in your identity. The thing that people don't realize about identity, most of us don't realize that your experiences regardless of whether they are volunteer, they're paid, they're at one type of role, they're at another type of role, they're out of a PhD program, whatever they are, like, those are, it's much healthier to look at my identity and the combination of my experiences, as opposed to I do this thing, or only look at certain type of experiences, because we really get wrapped up in that. But it's much healthier to say "okay, nobody can take away all of my collective set of experiences, whatever they are. And that can be a portion of my identity." And that is so much more of an effective approach, I'll say, but also a healthier approach too, like, there's a lot of great evidence around that at this point.

Anna VanRemoortel 21:47

Yeah, I think that was so important when I was changing careers. Because if my identity was tied to my academic job, and I felt like I was just not excited about it, I didn't feel like I was doing good work, because I wasn't excited about it. So if I tied my identity too closely with that, I just, I was not feeling good about who I was as a person or who I was as a professional. And so I really needed to just separate that and kind of see myself beyond an academic role, and then rebuild that confidence because I definitely lost a lot of confidence in grad school because I tie my identity so close to that. And it's tough with career change because when you're leaving one career, and you're like, untying your identity from that you can feel really lost. And I spent some months unemployed. And so like, what am I going to tie my identity to now about experiences that I actually enjoyed in my past and not my current job? Or my employment status?

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:43

Yeah, absolutely. It makes me think of a totally different question. And I'm now very curious, as you got into the actual transition, what would you say were the hardest parts for you?

Anna VanRemoortel 22:57

Yeah. I think the hardest part was everything that led up, maybe, like, the first and second session with Alistair, like, I was very wishy washy. I even, like, met with him and I was like, "I think I'm gonna leave." I'm kind of like, still, like testing the waters. And he was like, "make a decision by the next session." And I was thinking, like, "Oh, my God. I can't do that. I can't make a decision like this. This is too big." I thought I needed more time to gather more data, ask for more advice. But honestly, I didn't.

Anna VanRemoortel 23:30

Yeah. Oh, my God. So I think the challenge was like, moving from a very passive role to a more active one, where I was actually taking a change and making something happen for myself, because I was so good at consuming career content. I mean, I listened to you guys for like a year and a half before I did anything, and I read books on career change. If there's a book on leaving academia, I already own all of them. So I was very good at just consuming that content. And I think that kind of speaks from my experience being a grad student, too. So the most challenging part was in the first few sessions, where Alistair was like, "All right, like this is kind of like the end of the passive part and the beginning of a more active role." So I made a decision to leave the program. And then I started telling my friends and family, like, I'm making a career change. And once I was like, out of my head, and it was like, out in the world, like, oh, I put this out there, like, everyone knows about it now, it was so much easier to just like, be honest with people. I felt like I was just hiding it for so long. And I was like, ashamed of wanting to leave a PhD. And I mean, like, it makes sense. Like some people said, like, "No, don't leave. You're going to regret this." I had professors tell me that I would regret it. But then I also had people tell me, like, "No, you're not going to regret this." I had other people who had completed their PhD say, "I regret staying, you should leave now." So it was really hard to step away from all the advice I was getting and to just focus on myself and actually just taking a step.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:30

You research, right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:09

I think that's something we haven't really talked a lot about on the podcast, particularly the idea of once you have made that decision, and once you start interacting with other people in an active way, that it feels different, in some ways. So many wonderful ways, I would say, maybe there's some less wonderful ways, but it certainly it's harder to go and live what you actually want. However, you know, I very much felt where you described that I sort of felt, like, when I was in, it's been quite a period of time ago, but you know, when I was in a role where I stayed about 18 months, it felt like I was living a double life. I felt like I was, like, not being honest with everyone else, like my wife and my boss, and like my friends and everything else. I felt like I was like, having to hide this really terrible thing almost.

Anna VanRemoortel 26:07

Yeah. And I remember like, even before I met up with Alistair for those first few sessions, I was still doing, like, networking calls, like, I would often like, reach out to people that I thought were doing interesting work. But I would always approach those conversations, like, "I'm a grad student, and I'm interested in your work." And they were kind of confused, like, "But, like, my work is not what you would be doing in six years, like with a PhD. Like, why are you interested in my job?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:35

Why are you here?

Anna VanRemoortel 26:36

Yeah, and like, I felt, like, awkward and kind of ashamed. And I felt like I couldn't tell them the truth. And then once I was... I finally just like, kind of put it out in the world, then I could approach those conversations. And I was like, "Hi. I'm a grad student. And I'm thinking about leaving my program, and I'm interested in the work you do." And then we're able to have an honest conversation. And it was just, I got so much more out of those conversations, because I was honest with them about where I was at in this whole process and I didn't feel like I was hiding anything.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:04

That's really interesting. It shows up, too, in the real world, it shows up in interactions. And actually, before you and I had hit the record button, you said something to me about, like, yeah, even my, like, family and friends have told me I seem happier. And then I had told you that, yeah, like when we, like, you literally sound different, you literally sound happier. And your sounds different compared to when you and I chatted, you know, all those months ago. So, that's just evidence of what you're saying. I think, like, if you can be more of yourself, and not have to feel like you're hiding something, or however that shows up for different people, then it changes those interactions.

Anna VanRemoortel 27:47

Yeah. And I think like that kind of authenticity frame was present throughout all of the modules that I went through with Happen To Your Career, like, I remember, even like with the, like, networking, like the testing your career, those kind of conversations, I felt like I could just approach it with more authenticity, and even like interviewing, I felt like, I just had better practice like non hyping things throughout this whole career change process. I was able to go into an interview, and just be more authentic and connect with people and be like, "These are the strengths that, like, I know I have. This is what I know your organization needs." And it just felt like more of a collaboration, like, let's work together. Like, let's see if this is a good fit. And I wasn't like, "Oh, like just give me anything like, I'll take any job. Like, I'd be happy with anything." I was just much more open about where I was, what I needed from a job and like what they can offer. And if it was a good fit, great. If it wasn't, I was happy to learn that then instead of actually taking any job that they would give me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:50

How did you adapt that into as you started doing interviews, as you started having other interactions, functionally, how did you adapt that type of mindset or approach where you're willing to share more and have more authentic conversations? Was there anything that you did in order to make that easier for yourself?

Anna VanRemoortel 29:11

I think a few things. I think the first step was just rebuilding confidence. And thinking of myself as a professional that was, like, worthy of people's time. And honestly, like a lot of this happened before I went through coaching. Like grad school, it was like a tough time, like, my mental health wasn't great. And so I worked with a therapist for like two and a half years. And that was really essential because I just needed to process a lot of things and figure out, like, who I was outside of the student role, because most of my life I've kind of been a student, which has been very low on the totem pole of any organization. And so I felt like I had kind of learned this behavior of acting like a student and coming into these conversations like, "oh, well, I'll take whatever you can offer me thanks for even talking to me." And I had to really separate that and regain some confidence again. And then with you guys, like the scripts really helped a lot like I remember, even when I was, like, negotiating my salary for the first job I had with my current organization, I was watching the videos that you've recorded about, like how to have these conversations. And I had never seen them framed that way. Like I always thought I'd be going into like an interview or like a salary negotiation with this weird power dynamic. Like I was asking them for something and just hoping that they would give me anything, but the way your organization frames and all the modules and like, even the email templates, it's just framed as like a collaboration, where I have more confidence, which makes me look like a more attractive candidate, too. And then yeah, and like, even when I was negotiating my salary for my manager role a few months ago, like, I understand that nonprofits have limited budgets, like, I understand that they couldn't offer me like, you know, a million dollars, and so I was like, aha, I was like, "I understand that the budget is limited. But let's work together and see if we can make this an attractive offer by being a bit more creative with, like, vacation days and professional development, like what are some other tools that we can use to make this a great opportunity for both of us." And so that mindset shift, both from like, regaining confidence, and then also using those scripts, that is what has just, it's really changed the way I approach conversations today, too.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:32

I've heard that feedback quite a bit where like, I was just having a conversation with another person who's been on the podcast in the past, Laura Morrison, and she had said something similar in that, hey, like, this actually, literally changed how I... like the approach that I was using to be more authentic, and just try and work together and collaboratively and in a partnership to figure out how to create wonderful opportunities, like, I'm now found that over the last four years, I'm using that literally in my job every day, with that same type of approach and mentality and some of the skill sets that she built during her change. And that was really interesting to hear it in that way. But it sounds like that was a little bit the case for you, too, or has been the case.

Anna VanRemoortel 32:17

Yeah, absolutely.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:19

You've done such a great job with this through doing things that many people in the rest of the world might not do, and are difficult. And it's created a different set of results for you, which is so wonderful. So I really appreciate you taking the time and coming and sharing your story and experiences. And I'm so excited that this transition led to even something better within a few short months too. So cool to see.

Anna VanRemoortel 32:48

Yeah, it's been a wild ride. And I'm so grateful to you and like your team and Alistair, it's just, it was so great to go through this process with a team. Grad school can be isolating, leaving a career in starting something new can be really isolating. And I put all of that in the context of a pandemic, like this program, like, career change that, like this is what I needed during this time. This is what allowed me to actually want something better, like, if I hadn't reached out to you guys, I think I would still be, like, getting my PhD.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:18

PhD land. Yes.

Anna VanRemoortel 33:20

Yeah. Which, like, isn't bad. I mean, like, all my friends who are in the program, like they're having a good time, like, that's great, very happy for them. It's a great program. But yeah, it just wasn't a good fit for me. And I'm really happy I did something about it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:39

Many of the stories that you've heard on the podcast are from listeners that have decided they wanted to take action, and taking the first step of having a conversation with our team to try and figure out how we can help. And if you want to implement what you have heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just open your phone right now and open your email app. And I'm going to give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And then when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team. And you can have a conversation with us, we'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and your situation. So open up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line; scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:43

Hey, I hope you loved this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And if this has been helpful, then please share this podcast with your friends, with your family, with your co-workers that badly need it. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 35:01

I had been in a role for about 10 years and we had done amazing things. I had built a team, we had grown the business, so much success, so much fun, but I was at that point where it was more about maintaining and incremental growth. And I was ready, I was hungry for that next thing to challenge me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:19

When my youngest son Grayson was born, I remember a shift that took place for me internally, and it went something like this. In my head, it sounded like, "Okay, I now have three small kids at home, and I am at work or commuting like 60, sometimes many more hours a week. And when I'm not there, I'm stressing about work. So something's gotta give, something's got to change." Now, this is similar to what happens for a lot of people. And maybe it's bringing a new child into the world. Maybe it's your favorite coworker find a new job. Something happens externally, where you decide it's time for a priority change, a priority shift. And making that decision alone can seem life changing, but it can also be kind of terrifying. It can seem like, "Okay, I want to leave. I want something new, but has my entire career, all my degrees, my experience, all the time it took to get here, has that been for nothing?

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:27

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.