Successfully Quitting Your PhD to Find Career Happiness

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Dropping out of your PhD program is not a career death sentence. 

Anna VanRemoortel realized early on in her PhD program that she was not on a career path that would ultimately make her happy. Her identity was heavily tied to her academic job, so when she realized she was no longer excited about her work and questioned her career’s direction, she was left feeling like she was lacking in all areas of her life.

She is now (happily!) the executive director of a nonprofit organization that is focused on making a difference in its local Boston community. Learn how Anna doubled down on her strengths, found value in her transferable skills, gained confidence and made the most of networking opportunities.

What you’ll learn

  • Why you’re never really “starting over,” even when it feels like it
  • How to identify when it’s time to change your career direction 
  • The importance of differentiating your skills from your strengths
  • How to dig deep and figure out what will make you happy & fill your cup
  • Ways to make the most of casual networking opportunities 

Success Stories

The transition was so much easier than the last and so much more gratifying because of all that I learned with HTYC

Michal Balass, Social Science Research Analyst, United States/Canada

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I think the clarity and accountability I got from my coach was super important in this process. Sometimes people don't have the discipline, not because they're not diligent or hard working. It's because they're afraid.  It's because they're scared. You know, they also don't know what to do. I think with the accountability from my coaches, especially like, my coach can just lay down, okay, now, after this call, you need to do 123. So that was specific, right. And that was an even like, you need to do this by this time of this week. So I got to do it. You know, it's very clear. I think the clarity and accountability I got from my coach was super important in this process. Don’t be afraid to put yourself out there even if you feel under qualified or not the right fit because you might sit down and they might say I know you applied for this but what do you think about this and it could be something you totally love.”

Sylvia Guo, Research Director, United States/Canada

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Scott took the time to really hear my problem, to understand, and offer solutions to help me transition to where I am and where I’d like to be. That is why I decided to sign up for Happen to Your Career. I used to work in the legal industry and now I work in the nonprofit industry for a nonprofit that helps people change their lives!

Cesar Ponce de Leon, Online Campus Manager, United States/Canada

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If you're looking for a change, if you're somebody who is feeling unsatisfied in your work, and you're not necessarily necessarily sure why that is yet, I feel like, that's a great way to kind of figure that out, just because of how the program is structured. I don't think that I would have necessarily gotten to where I am now without the program, especially when it came to the resume and the interviewing portion, because I feel like those are the hardest two areas for someone who's trying to switch into something that's completely different. Having that coaching and that information, and, you know, all those resources available to me to prep me for to be able to present myself in a way where, you know, I'm talking to the hiring managers, and they're like, hey, well, you know, she doesn't have, you know, experience in this, but, you know, being able to explain why I'm still a valuable person and why, you know, my other skills are still good fits for, you know, the job that I was applying for, I don't think I would have had that tools and that skill set and, you know, the roadmaps and the guidance that I would have, that I had with being part of the program. So I'm super, super grateful.

Alyson Thompson, Client Success Specialist, United States/Canada

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Anna VanRemoortel 00:01

The things that I was, you know, good at, I didn't want to continue. And so I felt like I was almost starting from nothing.

Introduction 00:13

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:37

When I was a kid, I was often asked the question, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" You probably been asked this too. And back then, I thought this was a pretty harmless question. So I was always ready for it. Architect, obviously, is what I wanted to be, at least for a while, until studio recording, and then the next thing and then the next thing. And again, I just thought it was a harmless question. But many years later, I started to realize that it wasn't. I've come to realize how useless this question is, and how all it really does is teach us from a really extremely young age that we have to pick the exact career we want, instead of figuring out what our strengths are, and what's really going to make us feel more fulfilled, and gathering experiences and mastery and all the other things that actually helps with fulfillment, happiness, enjoyment. And often the result of this very normalized mindset of the "what do you want to be when you grow up?", the perfect thing is that when we actually begin to study for, or practice that one career that we've always dreamed of, if it doesn't work out, we're left feeling like we failed.

Anna VanRemoortel 01:44

Where do you get your energy? Like, what tasks do you most look forward to? And if it's having a meeting with someone, like, that says a lot. If it's reading, like, that also says a lot. And I think focusing on tasks versus big concepts that was a mindset shift that helped me during the career change process that led me to a career that I actually enjoy.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:04

That's Anna VanRemoortel. Anna was a PhD student at Duke University, when she first came to HTYC. She worked really hard to set herself up for success. But when she actually started the PhD program, she quickly realized "This isn't what I want to do for the rest of my life." And after having that realization, and later on working with a coach, and really diving into her strengths, and what she actually wanted, Anna decided to go out on a limb and accept an internship at a nonprofit that she was super excited about. This led to a whirlwind of events. And thanks to a lot of intentional hard work from Anna, she ended up as an executive director of a nonprofit organization just a short 10 months later. Take a listen, as she tells what led up to her transition over this last year.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:53

For a little bit of context here, you entered into one role with your organization. And just really recently, even in the space where, like, we could get the scheduled, getting your promotion, tell me a little bit about that. What took place that allowed you to be able to take advantage of that opportunity and having it lined out? Because it sounded like it's even better opportunity for you and your strengths and what you want.

Anna VanRemoortel 03:20

Absolutely, yeah. So to give, like, people listening a little bit of context of what the past few years looked like. So, like, at the end of spring 2021, I was in the PhD program, I decided to leave, I left my PhD with my masters, I was able to, kind of... it took me so long to decide to leave the PhD that I ended up getting a master's. So that's kind of funny. I moved home and I ended up being unemployed for a little bit, living with my family, which was my worst nightmare at the time. I thought, like, that was, like, what failure looks like. And which was not, it was really great actually. And then I did a lot of volunteer work, which really helped set me up for this kind of job. So I reached out to a small organization, my hometown that was all about, like, supporting small businesses. And I just did some volunteer work with them. Then I applied for an entry level job at an organization in Boston that has the program's a public park. And I really admired them for years, and I ended up not getting that entry level job and, instead, I got an internship, which was still really great because I, kind of, viewed it as still, like, the experiment phase that, like, as part of the career change process with you guys. And that just allowed me to build some experience that wasn't academic and get my foot in the door with Boston nonprofits in general. And then I also was so lucky that during that experience, I had a supervisor that was just so amazing. And she helped me as I was applying for new jobs, and she was, kind of, another career coach. So that was super great. And then I threw all of this, I was really focusing on Main Street organizations. So Main Streets are it's kind of this umbrella term to describe organizations that focus on a commercial district and supporting local businesses and revitalizing that area. And I was really interested in that. And so Boston has 20 of them. And I started just reaching out to people on LinkedIn that were directors of these Main Streets. And I actually got to talk to a bunch of them, they're all super open to having me ask questions. And one of them was actually alum, an alum of my undergrad University. And so we actually met up for coffee. And I just, like, asked her about her job and everything, and we really connected. And she was like, "Oh, by the way, like, we're gonna be hiring a program manager in a little bit. The job description isn't posted yet, but just let you know, this might be an opportunity." I'm like, "Oh, that's amazing." And so from that kind of casual conversation, which I wasn't even asking for a job, that she led me to a job to apply for. So I applied through them. And then during the process, I got into the manager position in November. But during that whole transition, the current IDI left, it wasn't like a super great fit. So she moved on to do some other work. And so we were actually without an executive director for a little bit. One of our board members stepped in as interim ED, and I worked with her. And we actually started hiring for an ED. We put the job description out, I was part of the interview process. And we interviewed a few candidates. And we just didn't feel like it was a great fit. And actually one of the other managers in the organization, he was like, "What about Anna? Like, what if Anna just steps into the role?" And I was like, "I would be interested in that I, kind of, imagined doing that, and maybe like two or three years, but I'd be up for the challenge if there was like, offered to me, and if I had, like, support from the board. And so throughout all of that, the board decided to offer me the job, and this was like early March. And so then, about a month ago, I stepped into the IDI role. And so now I am the executive director of the organization. And it was definitely a lot of growth and transition. And I'm still, like, growing, getting used to this role, but it's so exciting now. Like I love doing this kind of work. I love managing the organization and just thinking about where I wanted to go in the future, because it has such a rich history of, like, impact in this community. And so it's been so great to now be in the position where I can help lead it into the next year.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:32

What led up to the point where you were wanting to make a change?

Anna VanRemoortel 07:37

Yeah. So I was at Duke University in their Sociology PhD program. And so for many years, pretty much throughout my late teens and early 20s, I really want to be a sociology professor. I love studying pro social behavior, like what motivated people to take on certain actions and to intentionally do good things, intentionally build community. And I really liked researching that. I loved researching in my undergrad. And I had this goal in mind that I wanted to, like, be like my professors in undergrad, and go for that PhD. And so I spent the second half of my undergrad and a year between undergrad and grad school, like, really working towards this goal. I secured funding, I worked for professors with research assistant positions. And then I spent pretty much that year leading up to grad school applying for different programs and finding the best fit for me. And when I got there, I pretty quickly realized that it wasn't for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:35

Okay, tell me about that. What took place that caused you to realize? It sounds like there were some specific events. What happened?

Anna VanRemoortel 08:45

Yeah, I think one big piece is it was really my first time researching full time. So like before when I was doing research, I had all these other things going on, too, that, like, really kept me engaged in my community, that were pretty social activities. And this was the first time I was doing research, like, full time, like, 40-hour work week, of course, it was like, way more than 40 hours, as you could probably expect. And so that was like, the first time it, kind of, just became my everything. And I realized that the issues I really cared about, and I was researching, I didn't really feel that connected to. It kind of felt like the research process made me take a step back. And I felt pretty removed from it. And I think part of it is like, you kind of have to do that as a researcher to produce good research and to be objective. But I just felt like I wasn't, like, connecting with issues in the way I wanted to be connecting with them.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:39

That's fascinating, actually, because what you're saying is that, hey, I initially went in and thought I would be more connected with the issues but research, by definition, in many ways, you sort of have to take a removed more objective stance. Maybe not perfectly, but it was taking you further away from the ways that you wanted to be connected as opposed to closer. So that's really fascinating.

Anna VanRemoortel 10:06

Yeah. And I think I learned a lot about, like, myself through this process because before I'd always kind of identified as an introvert. And so the idea of reading and researching my whole life, and that kind of sounded good. But I didn't factor the fact that, like, I have been doing a lot of other social positions throughout my life as I've been doing researching before I took it on for a full time job. And so my life became pretty isolating with research. And it was... I felt like I just couldn't really connect with people. And I wasn't getting, like, the energy I wanted to, like, from my research experience, like, I was missing that personal connection.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:44

Let me ask you about the introvert piece. Do you still identify as more of an introvert or lean more towards introversion? Or how do you think about yourself now, after that set of experiences?

Anna VanRemoortel 11:00

Yeah, I don't think I'm an introvert anymore. I think I thought it was about, like, being shy, but I think I've, like, realized that it's really about more where I get energy. And I realized, like, throughout my life, like, stuff like this, this is what I get my energy from. It's like meeting with people. When I was doing research, when I was interviewing people in a qualitative method, like, that's where I was getting my energy from. It wasn't really the work alone, like, combing through data and, like, writing up a literature review that felt very draining for me after a while.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:33

It wasn't about the research, it was about the interactions, it sounds like.

Anna VanRemoortel 11:37

Yeah. And that was kind of the big thing that I learned throughout this whole process. Like I'm pretty young, I'm 26. And so I think I was still very, like, influenced by my college career program where, you know, at that age, like, people are like, "Oh, what are you interested in? Like, what do you want to do?" And your answer is kinda like, "Oh, like, I majored in sociology and economics.?" And my career path is kind of defined by these topics I was interested in, not actual tasks. So I kind of wish that someone asked like, the 20 year old version of me like, "Okay, like, put aside what you're interested in, like, what's your favorite part of the day? Where do you get your energy? Like, what tasks do you most look forward to? And if it's having a meeting with someone, like, that says a lot. If it's reading, like, that also says a lot." And I think focusing on tasks versus big concepts, that was a mindset shift that helped me during the career change process that led me to a career that I actually enjoy.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:34

So then it sounded like you were in the PhD program, recognizing that it wasn't necessarily where do you want it to be. What caused you to make the final decision that, "hey, I need to do something about this, I cannot continue to be here in this place, in this way."

Anna VanRemoortel 12:53

It was a long process, and honestly, like, so I started my PhD, the fall of 2019. And a few months later, I found your podcast, because I was just, like, I knew I wasn't happy. I didn't know if I wanted to leave the program, like, I was thinking, "Oh, maybe I just need a new advisor, or I need to be at a different university, maybe I need to think about the methodology I'm using and find something that's more exciting." But there was like this little voice in the back of my head saying, like, "maybe you can quit." But that was just such a scary thought for me. I've been pretty much, like, building up to this for many years, and I thought that leaving it would just be failure. And I didn't really see a lot of other people around me doing something like this, like, I saw my peers being, like, really enthusiastic about their work. And so it just felt, like, really wrong of me to not be excited about it and want to leave. And so I actually started listening to your podcast in 2019. I listened to it for maybe like, a year and a half or two years before I actually reached out to you guys. And that was just like, a way of normalizing leaving career, like, I needed to hear experiences of people who left their career, and it was fine. Like, I needed to hear what it's like on the other side in order to just get out of my head and be able to talk about it out loud.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:11

Why do you think after going through that type of experience, I'm just curious about your opinion on this, because I've been forming my own hypothesis for years and years and years and years. But why do you think it is so, whatever the opposite of normalized would be, the unnormalized in our society, that you could leave the PhD program, and that would be okay, or socially acceptable, or whatever word you'd throw in there, but why do you think is so much the opposite way or we feel it so much the opposite way?

Anna VanRemoortel 14:46

It's so interesting, because I knew in my mind, like, objectively, people who get PhDs, like, statistically don't end up in tenure track positions, like, that's a very small percentage of people that, like, get that position that everyone's working towards. But I think this idea of, I think I've just been, like, socialized to always want to pursue, like, one thing in my career. And another big part was like, I was told I had, like, potential, and I was like, people praise me like, "Oh, you're at Duke. Like, that's awesome. You're gonna get your PhD from Duke. Like, that's a great thing to have on your resume." And so I was really scared to let go of that, even though I knew the success rate of what I was going for was incredibly low. I was just worried of, like, wasting my potential, or like not living up to what people said I could live up to. So...

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:36

Your interest in.

Anna VanRemoortel 15:37

Yeah. And also, like, I knew the structure. Like, I had been a student pretty much my entire life. And so being a professional student, I just... I knew how to play the role of the student very well. And so the idea of stepping off that track felt like I was stepping into an abyss. And I didn't really know where I would go next.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:58

I don't remember exactly how you put it. But you and I got to chat before we started working together after you've been listening to the podcast for quite a period of time, which by the way, this is super fun to now get to chat with you before the podcast, after you had been a listener for... yeah, so you and I had talked and I remember you saying something about that, like, that stepping off the abyss. Or you said, I don't even really know what I'm stepping into. And that wasn't exactly how you put it. But, what about that made it scary or uncomfortable or whatever, at the time? And then tell me a little bit about what you ended up doing in order to move through that? Because I think it can be scary.

Anna VanRemoortel 16:44

Yeah, I think one big piece was that I just had my identity so tied up with academia, and I had like my resume and my skills, so tied up in academia. And so when I looked at my skills, I thought they could only apply in an academic context. Like, I looked at my experience, I was like, oh, I have experience writing literature reviews, and like gathering data and writing research reports and proposals. And I kind of thought that that my resume that I built, I had to build off of that to find a new job. And it was frustrating, because none of those things that I was skilled in, like, I wanted to continue, like, I don't want to write literature reviews anymore, I don't want to do that kind of research work. So the things that I was, you know, good at, I didn't want to continue. And so I felt like I was almost starting from nothing, which now I realized wasn't true. And that was what was really helpful working with Alistair, like, we started off from a very broad, like, strengths based kind of approach where we did StrengthsFinder. And I just was able to separate myself from the academic skills and focus more on my broad strengths that I had been developing from, yes, academia, but everything else I've done, like, hobbies and volunteer opportunities. And once I was able to focus on that, and think about my strengths, versus my actual resume experience, that was what allowed me to kind of shift and think about new opportunities that I could be good at. Before I was like, only looking at research positions, I was like, "Oh, I have experienced the research, I should be looking at research positions, but I didn't want to be doing research." And so shifting to that strengths based approach, that's what allowed me to look at new opportunities.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:29

That's such a great point. And a little bit of context for everyone else listening because one of the, I found one of the biggest confusions around strengths is often we have a tendency to think about strengths as skills. Because skills are, as you pointed out, like, that's what we see, and that's what we're experiencing, and that's what we're doing. Like, you're writing the papers, and you are like doing all the things, and then we can visibly see those, like if we think about it sort of as an iceberg a little bit, like those are the tip of the iceberg. However, strengths are not skills, they are the things that are lying under the surface that make you predisposed to be better at some things versus another. So the reason I wanted to point that out, though, is you made such a great point about the things that you were good at were not the things you wanted to spend your time doing. And I think that's such a confusing thing, because people are like, "these are my strengths." No, they're not. They're actually just the skills and skills are good, but that doesn't mean you have to spend the rest of your life doing it just because you happen to have the skill. So when you had that realization, how did that impact what you thought you might be looking for from there on out?

Anna VanRemoortel 19:45

I think when I realized that I was able to look at my past experience that and, like, the things I've done that I wasn't necessarily paid to do. So I took my volunteer experience more seriously. I took even like the things I did when I was a college student, like I looked back at those experiences, and I thought, like, what was my favorite thing I did when I was a college student. And I remember like working in ResLife, and I just loved connecting with people and building community and having those like in person interactions, and that I was not getting that in grad school. And so I think the shift from skills and, like, a very resume focus, like, this program is not about fixing your resume and cover letter, which is, if I signed up for those kinds of career change programs, like, I would not be where I am today, like, I needed a shift to strengths, and to take my unpaid experience. And just like my general interests, and like how I presented myself with my friends and family, I needed to take that experience more seriously.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:46

Well, I think that... you mentioned identity just a minute ago. So go back to something that you had said, and that was a struggle for you to let go how you were thinking about yourself and what was wrapped up in your identity. The thing that people don't realize about identity, most of us don't realize that your experiences regardless of whether they are volunteer, they're paid, they're at one type of role, they're at another type of role, they're out of a PhD program, whatever they are, like, those are, it's much healthier to look at my identity and the combination of my experiences, as opposed to I do this thing, or only look at certain type of experiences, because we really get wrapped up in that. But it's much healthier to say "okay, nobody can take away all of my collective set of experiences, whatever they are. And that can be a portion of my identity." And that is so much more of an effective approach, I'll say, but also a healthier approach too, like, there's a lot of great evidence around that at this point.

Anna VanRemoortel 21:47

Yeah, I think that was so important when I was changing careers. Because if my identity was tied to my academic job, and I felt like I was just not excited about it, I didn't feel like I was doing good work, because I wasn't excited about it. So if I tied my identity too closely with that, I just, I was not feeling good about who I was as a person or who I was as a professional. And so I really needed to just separate that and kind of see myself beyond an academic role, and then rebuild that confidence because I definitely lost a lot of confidence in grad school because I tie my identity so close to that. And it's tough with career change because when you're leaving one career, and you're like, untying your identity from that you can feel really lost. And I spent some months unemployed. And so like, what am I going to tie my identity to now about experiences that I actually enjoyed in my past and not my current job? Or my employment status?

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:43

Yeah, absolutely. It makes me think of a totally different question. And I'm now very curious, as you got into the actual transition, what would you say were the hardest parts for you?

Anna VanRemoortel 22:57

Yeah. I think the hardest part was everything that led up, maybe, like, the first and second session with Alistair, like, I was very wishy washy. I even, like, met with him and I was like, "I think I'm gonna leave." I'm kind of like, still, like testing the waters. And he was like, "make a decision by the next session." And I was thinking, like, "Oh, my God. I can't do that. I can't make a decision like this. This is too big." I thought I needed more time to gather more data, ask for more advice. But honestly, I didn't.

Anna VanRemoortel 23:30

Yeah. Oh, my God. So I think the challenge was like, moving from a very passive role to a more active one, where I was actually taking a change and making something happen for myself, because I was so good at consuming career content. I mean, I listened to you guys for like a year and a half before I did anything, and I read books on career change. If there's a book on leaving academia, I already own all of them. So I was very good at just consuming that content. And I think that kind of speaks from my experience being a grad student, too. So the most challenging part was in the first few sessions, where Alistair was like, "All right, like this is kind of like the end of the passive part and the beginning of a more active role." So I made a decision to leave the program. And then I started telling my friends and family, like, I'm making a career change. And once I was like, out of my head, and it was like, out in the world, like, oh, I put this out there, like, everyone knows about it now, it was so much easier to just like, be honest with people. I felt like I was just hiding it for so long. And I was like, ashamed of wanting to leave a PhD. And I mean, like, it makes sense. Like some people said, like, "No, don't leave. You're going to regret this." I had professors tell me that I would regret it. But then I also had people tell me, like, "No, you're not going to regret this." I had other people who had completed their PhD say, "I regret staying, you should leave now." So it was really hard to step away from all the advice I was getting and to just focus on myself and actually just taking a step.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:30

You research, right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:09

I think that's something we haven't really talked a lot about on the podcast, particularly the idea of once you have made that decision, and once you start interacting with other people in an active way, that it feels different, in some ways. So many wonderful ways, I would say, maybe there's some less wonderful ways, but it certainly it's harder to go and live what you actually want. However, you know, I very much felt where you described that I sort of felt, like, when I was in, it's been quite a period of time ago, but you know, when I was in a role where I stayed about 18 months, it felt like I was living a double life. I felt like I was, like, not being honest with everyone else, like my wife and my boss, and like my friends and everything else. I felt like I was like, having to hide this really terrible thing almost.

Anna VanRemoortel 26:07

Yeah. And I remember like, even before I met up with Alistair for those first few sessions, I was still doing, like, networking calls, like, I would often like, reach out to people that I thought were doing interesting work. But I would always approach those conversations, like, "I'm a grad student, and I'm interested in your work." And they were kind of confused, like, "But, like, my work is not what you would be doing in six years, like with a PhD. Like, why are you interested in my job?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:35

Why are you here?

Anna VanRemoortel 26:36

Yeah, and like, I felt, like, awkward and kind of ashamed. And I felt like I couldn't tell them the truth. And then once I was... I finally just like, kind of put it out in the world, then I could approach those conversations. And I was like, "Hi. I'm a grad student. And I'm thinking about leaving my program, and I'm interested in the work you do." And then we're able to have an honest conversation. And it was just, I got so much more out of those conversations, because I was honest with them about where I was at in this whole process and I didn't feel like I was hiding anything.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:04

That's really interesting. It shows up, too, in the real world, it shows up in interactions. And actually, before you and I had hit the record button, you said something to me about, like, yeah, even my, like, family and friends have told me I seem happier. And then I had told you that, yeah, like when we, like, you literally sound different, you literally sound happier. And your sounds different compared to when you and I chatted, you know, all those months ago. So, that's just evidence of what you're saying. I think, like, if you can be more of yourself, and not have to feel like you're hiding something, or however that shows up for different people, then it changes those interactions.

Anna VanRemoortel 27:47

Yeah. And I think like that kind of authenticity frame was present throughout all of the modules that I went through with Happen To Your Career, like, I remember, even like with the, like, networking, like the testing your career, those kind of conversations, I felt like I could just approach it with more authenticity, and even like interviewing, I felt like, I just had better practice like non hyping things throughout this whole career change process. I was able to go into an interview, and just be more authentic and connect with people and be like, "These are the strengths that, like, I know I have. This is what I know your organization needs." And it just felt like more of a collaboration, like, let's work together. Like, let's see if this is a good fit. And I wasn't like, "Oh, like just give me anything like, I'll take any job. Like, I'd be happy with anything." I was just much more open about where I was, what I needed from a job and like what they can offer. And if it was a good fit, great. If it wasn't, I was happy to learn that then instead of actually taking any job that they would give me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:50

How did you adapt that into as you started doing interviews, as you started having other interactions, functionally, how did you adapt that type of mindset or approach where you're willing to share more and have more authentic conversations? Was there anything that you did in order to make that easier for yourself?

Anna VanRemoortel 29:11

I think a few things. I think the first step was just rebuilding confidence. And thinking of myself as a professional that was, like, worthy of people's time. And honestly, like a lot of this happened before I went through coaching. Like grad school, it was like a tough time, like, my mental health wasn't great. And so I worked with a therapist for like two and a half years. And that was really essential because I just needed to process a lot of things and figure out, like, who I was outside of the student role, because most of my life I've kind of been a student, which has been very low on the totem pole of any organization. And so I felt like I had kind of learned this behavior of acting like a student and coming into these conversations like, "oh, well, I'll take whatever you can offer me thanks for even talking to me." And I had to really separate that and regain some confidence again. And then with you guys, like the scripts really helped a lot like I remember, even when I was, like, negotiating my salary for the first job I had with my current organization, I was watching the videos that you've recorded about, like how to have these conversations. And I had never seen them framed that way. Like I always thought I'd be going into like an interview or like a salary negotiation with this weird power dynamic. Like I was asking them for something and just hoping that they would give me anything, but the way your organization frames and all the modules and like, even the email templates, it's just framed as like a collaboration, where I have more confidence, which makes me look like a more attractive candidate, too. And then yeah, and like, even when I was negotiating my salary for my manager role a few months ago, like, I understand that nonprofits have limited budgets, like, I understand that they couldn't offer me like, you know, a million dollars, and so I was like, aha, I was like, "I understand that the budget is limited. But let's work together and see if we can make this an attractive offer by being a bit more creative with, like, vacation days and professional development, like what are some other tools that we can use to make this a great opportunity for both of us." And so that mindset shift, both from like, regaining confidence, and then also using those scripts, that is what has just, it's really changed the way I approach conversations today, too.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:32

I've heard that feedback quite a bit where like, I was just having a conversation with another person who's been on the podcast in the past, Laura Morrison, and she had said something similar in that, hey, like, this actually, literally changed how I... like the approach that I was using to be more authentic, and just try and work together and collaboratively and in a partnership to figure out how to create wonderful opportunities, like, I'm now found that over the last four years, I'm using that literally in my job every day, with that same type of approach and mentality and some of the skill sets that she built during her change. And that was really interesting to hear it in that way. But it sounds like that was a little bit the case for you, too, or has been the case.

Anna VanRemoortel 32:17

Yeah, absolutely.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:19

You've done such a great job with this through doing things that many people in the rest of the world might not do, and are difficult. And it's created a different set of results for you, which is so wonderful. So I really appreciate you taking the time and coming and sharing your story and experiences. And I'm so excited that this transition led to even something better within a few short months too. So cool to see.

Anna VanRemoortel 32:48

Yeah, it's been a wild ride. And I'm so grateful to you and like your team and Alistair, it's just, it was so great to go through this process with a team. Grad school can be isolating, leaving a career in starting something new can be really isolating. And I put all of that in the context of a pandemic, like this program, like, career change that, like this is what I needed during this time. This is what allowed me to actually want something better, like, if I hadn't reached out to you guys, I think I would still be, like, getting my PhD.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:18

PhD land. Yes.

Anna VanRemoortel 33:20

Yeah. Which, like, isn't bad. I mean, like, all my friends who are in the program, like they're having a good time, like, that's great, very happy for them. It's a great program. But yeah, it just wasn't a good fit for me. And I'm really happy I did something about it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:39

Many of the stories that you've heard on the podcast are from listeners that have decided they wanted to take action, and taking the first step of having a conversation with our team to try and figure out how we can help. And if you want to implement what you have heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just open your phone right now and open your email app. And I'm going to give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And then when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team. And you can have a conversation with us, we'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and your situation. So open up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line; scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:43

Hey, I hope you loved this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And if this has been helpful, then please share this podcast with your friends, with your family, with your co-workers that badly need it. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 35:01

I had been in a role for about 10 years and we had done amazing things. I had built a team, we had grown the business, so much success, so much fun, but I was at that point where it was more about maintaining and incremental growth. And I was ready, I was hungry for that next thing to challenge me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:19

When my youngest son Grayson was born, I remember a shift that took place for me internally, and it went something like this. In my head, it sounded like, "Okay, I now have three small kids at home, and I am at work or commuting like 60, sometimes many more hours a week. And when I'm not there, I'm stressing about work. So something's gotta give, something's got to change." Now, this is similar to what happens for a lot of people. And maybe it's bringing a new child into the world. Maybe it's your favorite coworker find a new job. Something happens externally, where you decide it's time for a priority change, a priority shift. And making that decision alone can seem life changing, but it can also be kind of terrifying. It can seem like, "Okay, I want to leave. I want something new, but has my entire career, all my degrees, my experience, all the time it took to get here, has that been for nothing?

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:27

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

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Making An Amazing First Impression (On Purpose) With Vanessa Van Edwards

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on this episode

Studies show that people make a first impression in less than 7 seconds. That doesn’t give you a lot of time to make a great impression – especially when you are having a job interview.

So what can you do to use those 7 seconds (or less) to your advantage?

Vanessa Van Edwards, author of “Cues: Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication”, shares exactly how you can do this.

What you’ll learn

  • The importance of knowing what first impressions you’re making
  • How to give off the right cues to show charisma and trustworthiness
  • The science backed research that Vanessa uses in her new book
  • First impressions and how your LinkedIn profile is perceived by others

Success Stories

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Vanessa Van Edwards 00:01
And the way that I want you to think about cues is like recipes. So there are 96 cues, it does not mean that you should use all 96 of them. In fact, that would be like trying to put everything into the same dish. It's actually much better to think about, what cues are you already naturally using that you want to leverage or level up or pump up, or reason or purposely great? Those are your staples.

Introduction 00:28
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:52
You're on Happen To Your Career. We've had hundreds of episodes, about how to set yourself up for success during the career change process from way before the actual interview to where you're leveraging psychology, to where you're doing test drive conversations, and everything that happens in between all the way to negotiation, you have one good chance to make a wonderful impression, at least the first time around. In fact, studies show that people make a first judgment in less than seven seconds. That doesn't give you a lot of time to make a great impression. So the question is, what can you do to use those seven seconds or even less to your advantage?

Vanessa Van Edwards 01:38
In those first few milliseconds of someone seeing you, they are getting very quick, but very simple cues, just looking at your picture, looking at your gestures, your expression, your posture, your colors, but they're also very quickly looking at the first few words of your headline. So just like we talked about the verbal cues for your first 10 word editor mouth, you also want those first 10 words in your headline to matter.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:59
That's Vanessa Van Edwards. Vanessa's the lead investigator at the science of people and is renowned for teaching science backed people skills to audiences around the world, including at South by Southwest, which I've been to in the past and love, MIT, CES, not only is she a speaker and researcher, but Vanessa is also a national best selling author, including her newest book "Cues: Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication". In this book, which I've read, I love, she talks about the tiny signals we send to others 24/7 through our body language, facial expressions, word choice, vocal inflection, and how they have a massive impact. And how we and our ideas come across. Our cues can either enhance our message or undermine it. So today, let's dive into the conversation with Vanessa. Here's her describing her early career trajectory.

Vanessa Van Edwards 02:58
It seems like if you look at the trajectory of my career, it seems very random. But when I look back, I know there were specific reasons what I did each thing that led me to be able to do what I do now, which is weird. Like, I have a weird, weird job. When I was asked, you know, in elementary school, or even in college, "what do you want to do with your life?" You know, YouTube wasn't a thing. There was no such thing as YouTube, there was no such thing as like writer meets vlogger, like, it just wasn't a thing. So I didn't realize that I was actually building lots of skills that got me to here. But the biggest one is when I always have had a natural inclination towards language. So in high school, I took Spanish and French and it seemed very easy. For me, math and science were okay, but wow, I just love those languages. And then in college, someone said, oh, you should take the hardest language.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:47
Well, hold on. Why did you feel that was a good idea at that time?

Vanessa Van Edwards 03:51
Why? That's it. Why did I think that was a good idea? Because someone was like, oh, you know, "if you are able to add Chinese, Mandarin to your repertoire, you'll get a job anywhere." I thought it would be great to get a job anywhere. So I enrolled in Mandarin classes and loved it, like immediately loved it. So I ended up majoring in Chinese International Studies. I actually think the reason I was supposed to do that was because I ended up meeting my husband studying abroad in China. I study abroad in China, and I met my husband. He was also studying abroad from George Washington University. We fell in love, 15 years later, you know, we're still together. We have a baby. We got married five years later. So I think that path was like a romantic path. But here's where I think the language piece ended up being important is I was very good at languages, and at this time, I was also very, very awkward. And it was that horrible time in your career, where you're going on tons of interviews, you're trying to network, you're doing those information sessions, you're trying to make long lasting friendships, like, at that point, I was doing the most people in everyday that I've ever done, and I was quite bad at peopling, I'm a recovering awkward person. So it's very hard for me to process lots of social information. I also have a problem where I misinterpret neutral cues as negative. So I always would, like, my joke with my husband, I come home from a party and I'm like, "Is she mad at me?", "Does everyone hate me?", "Did I do something wrong?". He's like, "No. What are you talking about?" So because of that, and this was in 2005, I remember specifically, I watched a very big interview at the time, which was Larry, on Larry King Live, Lance Armstrong went on saying that he had never doped. Now, of course, we know later that he definitely had it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:29
We all know how that ends.

Vanessa Van Edwards 05:30
Massive and open skin. I remember watching that interview. And he tells this massive lie, right, like huge lie, and then lip presses– presses his lips together. And I remember watching thinking, "what was that?" No, I didn't realize the time that was the very first cue I ever consciously spotted. And I thought, as I started doing the researchers, as I start looking into like, you know, nonverbal textbooks and body language research, and I was like, "Oh, it's a lip presses." Lip presses, kind of, seen as a universal sign of withholding or holding back. And I wondered, "What if I could study cues like I study foreign languages?" You know, in foreign language, the very first thing you do is you learn vocab words, and then you begin to put them together. And so I thought, "Well, I don't speak people. I speak English, but I don't speak people." I really have a hard time misinterpret facial expressions. I don't know what to do with my hands when I talk. I have no idea how to submit...present myself as confident. What if I could look at confident people, and catalog all the cues they use down to the gesture? And so that was the start in 2005 of this research, where I slowly started to catalog every cue that humans send. And that's what a cue is a social signal. Little did I know that 17 years later, I would have a book called "Cues". And that would be my entire career. That was a very fast forward, I'm happy to dig into, and that was sort of the seed that accidentally got me into this path.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:50
What else happened along the way that really helped to cement that for you that really helped to confirm that you were on that right path?

Vanessa Van Edwards 07:00
I think pretty early on, I had distinguished there are two kind of types or buckets of cues, there's positive cues that highly charismatic, compelling people use. And there's negative cues that whether they're athletes, or politicians or business leaders, they have these negative cues when they're lying, or they're hiding something. So okay, very simply, I want to show less negative cues, and I want to show more positive cues. So I took a video of myself giving a presentation. And I was like, let's see, look at the cues I use, and let's see what language I'm sending. And it was so interesting, because it was like my little transcript. I had a little transcripts, and I was writing down all the cues next to my transcript. I'm very scientific really guy, I learned in a very black and white way. So I had a transcript of my talk. And then I was writing the cues in the margin. And it was like, negative cue, negative cue, negative cue, negative cue, positive cue, negative, negative, negative, negative negative, I looked at this sheet, and of course, it was color coded, because, you know, that I like color coding. It was all red. By the way, that is the reason why cue is red it's because I had too many negative cues. And I had no idea. I had no idea that I was sending all excuses. I worked really hard on that presentation, right? Like I had prepped the perfect slides, I had great answers. I had great statistics and didn't really matter, right? Like even I had this perfect presentation, I was giving away all of my, I didn't know it at the time, I was giving me all my competence. That was a big aha moment for me to realize, I need to take control of my cues. But there is no accidental, right? And that's a lot. That's a big mistake of people who are very smart, is they show up, they think my ideas can speak for me, right? I have such good ideas, my ideas will speak for themselves. And then we get into the room and we wonder why people are on their phones. We wonder why we don't get called back into the interview. We wonder why we're interrupted or not respected or not paid enough. I know, it's because we are accidentally sending cues that don't serve us.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:50
We'll talk about that for probably more than a few minutes.

Vanessa Van Edwards 08:55
I'm ready.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:57
Here's what I'd love to focus in on. I can't tell you the number of conversations that I've had over the last 20 years working as an HR leader, working in recruiting, going into interviews myself, you mentioned interviews and as an example, a very visible example that I think almost everyone can point to in some way or another where it's a situation where you don't necessarily get immediate feedback. Sometimes you do, sometimes you have other people's cues. And sometimes you have, you know, someone expressing their intentions immediately. But a lot of the times, it's a we're ending it and we're gonna find out. And that creates somewhat precarious situation where you don't necessarily know how you did or why you did and so many people I've encountered over the years are surprised when they think something went really really well. And then lo and behold, you know, they came in the second place, or they came in, not getting the job at all, whatever it might be. So what are some of the biggest mistakes that you see in, let's just say that type of situation, that type of personal interaction where you want to allow people to like you because people are basing a decision at least partially, maybe subconsciously on that.

Vanessa Van Edwards 10:12
Yes. Okay. So first of all this has happened to you, you are not alone. So this happened to you were you think that date went great, that meeting went awesome, that interviewer went well, and then all of a sudden, you realize you didn't get the job, they didn't call you back, they didn't write back, you are not alone in that. And the biggest mistake that I see actually is a mistake that smart people make, very successfully make this mistake, which is they under cue, they under signal. So here's why this happens. You have an interview and negotiation pitch, okay? And you're really excited, you prepare, you know, you prepare answers, you script out stories, you prepare for the hardball questions, you remembered the good questions, you remember their name, right? You think a lot about the verbal and verbal cues are important, right? That is one area of cues. The problem is, is when you are so focused on the idea, when you are so focused on delivering answer, especially like agenda, I think a lot of very smart, organized people, this was me– I had an agenda in my head I had to get through, right. And so you walk into the interview, and you're so focused on the agenda and some of the memorization and memorization can actually kill charisma, that you're just like deliver, deliver, deliver, deliver, which means you're under signaling with your body, you're under signaling with your face, you're delivering with a vocal power that's memorized, right? So if I have a memorized answer, it's going to sound scripted, it's going to sound inauthentic, even if it isn't, because you've rehearsed it so many times, you rehearse the emotion out of it. So a myth that people have is that to be powerful or impressive, they should under a moat, they should be stoic and hide all their cues. That is so far from the truth. Highly charismatic people are actually very expressive. They're just purposefully so. They know how to express warmth and trust, they know how to express competence and productivity, they know how to express a disagreement or underwhelmed with them something they don't like. And so that is the biggest thing you will make is they under signal because they don't know what to do with their signals.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:00
That's really interesting. And I gotta tell you, this has been really kind of fascinating. I read the book in the last three days or so here.

Vanessa Van Edwards 12:07
Whoa, cool!

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:09
It was wonderful. And I will tell you, first and foremost, that my favorite part was actually, here's a little teaser for everyone because we won't have time to talk about everything. But the part where you decoded the Leonardo da Vinci's The Last Supper. And that was fascinating, partially because I'm a fan of, you know, Leonardo da Vinci's work and some fact, yeah, let's be honest. Also, it was really, really fascinating to look at it in a completely different light. But the other bigger reason, this has been interesting for me is I got a concussion last Sunday playing ice hockey. So I'm going somewhere with this, I promise. But what has happened is because my brain is healing, all of the cues that I do on autopilot on a normal given day are actually more challenging. So it was really interesting to go through the book, and then in some ways, relearn many of the things that I've been doing for years and years, and now they're actually hard. My wife and I went to a group dinner last night, and it was a struggle for me to do some of the cues that I would normally do on autopilot. So here's my question for you, you know, as people are beginning to pay attention to this, maybe for the first time, maybe after a concussion, I don't know, whenever they need to, how would you advise them to start practicing this?

Vanessa Van Edwards 13:31
It's interesting, because I wonder if that almost gives you a little bit of a blank slate, right, like to retest and retry cues is kind of like an interesting way to think about it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:39
It's been a weird experiment.

Vanessa Van Edwards 13:40
Yeah. Like that's like a very cool experiment and went great timing with the book, not horrible timing for a concussion.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:47
It's never a great time to get to that concussion, but if that would be, you know, about that.

Vanessa Van Edwards 13:52
So there are 96 cues in the book. And the way that I want you to think about cues is like recipes. So there are 96 cues, it does not mean that you should use all 96 of them. In fact, that would be like trying to put everything into the same dish. It's actually much better to think about what cues are you already naturally using. So hopefully, as you're reading, and this is what people have been telling me as they read, which is so great is "oh, I didn't realize I was doing that cue and that was serving me." What cues are you're already naturally using that you want to leverage or level up or pump up, reason or purposely great? Those are your staples, right? Like those are like the favorite things, your favorite foods you like to cook with. They tend to be a lot of your dishes. Great. The next thing we think about is, like, what are the dishes that sound really good? So what are the cues as you're reading, you're like, "Ooh, I like that cue. I want to try that." And slowly start adding it, trying it on, right, like see if you like the flavor. The first time you might not love it, right, the first time we try it any cue, you can feel a little uncomfortable, a little bit foreign, but I want you to try it in three different types of scenarios with three different people. And that's because some cues, like, I use some cues a lot more with my daughter and my husband than I do professionally, right? Like, one's dessert, one's dinner, you know, if we're going to keep going on the food metaphor, I like food, you know, we should think about that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:08
We'll see how far we can push this food metaphor.

Vanessa Van Edwards 15:10
I want to keep pushing it. It's almost lunchtime, I'm gonna keep pushing. So like, you're gonna figure out what goes in which scenario, which made me change for places. There are going to be some cues that you do not like, right, you have food allergies to those cues. And that's also very empowering, because I don't want you to do cues that are inauthentic. So start this cue by cue. First, getting very purposeful with the cues you already use naturally, those are the best. Second challenge yourself, I want to try a cue a day or a cue a week, I want to try it on. And the other way that we can practice this is spotting all 96 cues. So seeing in the next few weeks, can you spot cues on your friends and your colleagues on reality TV, in movies, that's also training a very specific part of your brain? So they've actually identified that we use very specific parts of our brain to identify cues, there's an area of our brain called the fusiform face area, this is a specific area of our brain that we use to decode facial expressions. If we are not used to doing this, if we've never done this before, it can literally feel like exercising a muscle for the first time, right. So you're gonna have to start with like smaller weights, right, and then work your way up. So even just learning to spot the cues, is also when you can sort of begin to try them on.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:22
First of all, I really appreciate that. Because long before I knew anything about cues, I had a variety of mentors that made me watch a video of myself over and over and over again, it was so painful at first, let's be honest.

Vanessa Van Edwards 16:35
It's horrible.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:36
Like, at some point it is not that big of a deal anymore, but it was painful for a long time. And the benefit out of it was that I got to see all of those parts and pieces, those different cues in action when they worked well, when they worked, quite frankly, terribly. So I appreciate those other ways to look at it too. And the point that, hey, it's not a case where you need to master all 96 cues. But instead, it's choosing what you're going to bring into your repertoire.

Vanessa Van Edwards 17:06
Yeah. And I think another thing that you can look for. So I think it's, oh gosh, if you can get a video of yourself presenting or speaking, something important, like not just like a little update, but like presenting or sharing something, it's so helpful to code it. Another thing you can do for yourself is I think everyone should know their own nervous cells, right? Everyone should know what tick do you have that, kind of, who your anxiety leaks in that way, when they're different for everyone. There's some typical interesting cues. I talked about this in the book, but what do you do when you knew you were anxious? Right? So you can find a video of yourself where you knew you were sweating it, right? Like during that particular question, or you were really nervous delivering that story, or you even knew you were deceiving someone. Pay attention to what you did not only non verbally, but verbally vocally, like, for example, there's some studies that look at liars and their patterns of their lies. And not every time but they often find that liars will use words like to be honest, to be frank, they'll actually call out honesty, even though they're about to lie, which is a very odd behavior thing. So even pay attention to the type of verbal signals you might be giving out. I think that's a really empowering thing to know about yourself.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:15
Let's talk about some specific places where our listeners might be able to apply it. How about this, let's take a real example that one of our clients is experiencing right now. So she's in the process of identifying her next career move. Right? And, yeah, it's a wonderful opportunity for her and for the most part she's having a good time with it. That said, she's in this space where she's now trying to identify what roles are interesting to her and where she wants to spend, you know, the next number of years. And she's going through this mini career experiment that we call the "Social Goldilocks", where she's scheduling a whole series of super short calls with people that have roles that she might be interested in. So in this case, she's doing a lot of zoom calls, a lot of video chat, a lot of like, what you and I are doing right this very second, right? Yeah. So here's my question. I know that you break down charisma into warmth and competence, right? So how can she during those video calls build both warmth and competence very, very quickly?

Vanessa Van Edwards 19:22
Okay. So I'm going to give a really specific formula here, like this is pre video calls that are specific cues we need to see to be able to diagnose someone's warmth and competence. So these are crazy specific, but they really work. First thing is, you need to make sure if you're doing video calls that you are honoring space rules. This is called proxemics. It's a very important aspect of human behavior. And the biggest mistake people make on video is they get too close to their camera so they are all up in their cameras like their face is super close like this. I want you to make sure, I want to measure the distance between your nose and the camera, and I want you to make sure it is at least 18 inches away. Okay, it's the very first thing. And the reason for that is because if it is closer than 18 inches, you are accidentally triggering someone's fear response. When someone comes into our intimate zone too quickly, we're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, it's like a digital close talker. It makes us feel like we're being threatened. So, one, right from that very first impression, make sure you are in the sweet spot, which is 18 inches to three feet away from your camera, sounds very silly, but that's how far we want to be in the person that we're talking to. So that's number one, before you even get on that video call, take some measurements. And at my home setup, when I'm in my home studio, I have very specific setups in my room to just set me up for more charisma. Like for example, I have to sit today cuz I'm in a boring conference room in my publishers office. But normally I'm standing, not everyone has to stand. But I have noticed it changes my vocal power. When I'm standing, I just can deliver with more breath. So second, decide if you want to stand or sit, like, decide– do a couple experiments– where do you sound like your best self? Is it standing or sitting? So that's even before you hop in the call. Second...or actually third, and the moment you come on camera, I would love for you to do a nonverbal greeting. So we love this as humans and in person, we know this instinctively, right? We know intuitively when we see someone we reach out, we high five, we handshake, we cheek kiss, we hug, we have some sort of nonverbal greeting. On video that awkwardness that can happen the first seconds in the video it's because our brain is like, "what do we do? What do we do? We can't touch them, what do we do?" I mean, we're trying to, like, think we can't handshake so it's so weird. So instead, I want you to in your head replace the handshake with an honorable reading. My favorite is just a wave. So the moment I hop on video, I go "Hey, good morning. Good to see ya." And I give a little wave, "How are ya?" Right? On YouTube, every single one of my YouTube videos, I start with a double handed "Hi", both sides. So third is some sort of nonverbal greeting. And the last thing I would say is we've dismissed verbal a lot in this interview. But verbal does matter. Of course, words matter. And this is the third area of cues. There's body language, vocal, words, and imagery. Words, also really important, especially your first 10 words. So in your video calls, I want you to think about the first 10 words out of your mouth. Oftentimes, they are accidentally negative. So people will hop on a video call and they'll be like, "Oh man, the weather, those COVID numbers. I'm so tired. I'm so stressed. I'm so busy." And it's like we just default to it. We don't even think, "Can you see me? Can you hear me?" That's actually the base engine is when you say "can you see me? Can you hear me" and you're leaning in like this, it's like a double way.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:34
It's like the double entendre.

Vanessa Van Edwards 22:36
It's like a horrible space, no greeting, terrible start. So I want you to think about before you even hop on your call, what am I opening with? What's my opener? And this can be very simple. "Happy Monday." "Happy Wednesday." "So good to see you." "I've been so looking forward to this. Thank you so much for having me." "Hi, team" It's not like you have to start with a speech or a toast, it's just something small positive that you can add.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:00
I love that. And thank you for going specific. That is incredibly helpful.

Vanessa Van Edwards 23:06
Okay, good. And it's this checklist. I mean, this is how I learned charisma, I am not naturally charismatic. And so I have to think about what is the formula and there are social blueprints, there are blueprints for how we like to interact. And if we know how to read those blueprints, we all feel better. Everyone feels better. It's a win for everyone.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:22
It does, it impacts everyone. You know, one of the parts that I loved in the book you had made the point about it becomes contagious, if you are expressing cues that, one, indicating happiness or indicating anything that's positive, quite frankly, then the other person therefore feels more positive. And consequently you feel more positive as well. So, it really is. Like it is all linked together.

Vanessa Van Edwards 23:52
And I think we...this is like a gift we can give to the world. Like I know that sounds super cheesy, but you know, we are desperately needed connection– now more than ever. And our cues are contagious, right? So if we show up as our warmest, most competent, most confident self, not only does that make us look good, which is great. That's a happy side effect. But we're also infecting other people to feel like their warmest was almost a competent self. And this because of very specific neural feedback loop, which is when we're with humans, we cannot help but suddenly mirror them. Now the more we like someone the more we mirror, the less we like someone the less we mirror. It's a little bit harder on video that's still done, it happens even more in person, actually, even happens on the phone. We tend to mirror the vocal patterns the person we're talking with. This is a natural response because, as humans, we want to feel as the other person feels. So if we're with someone and let's say that they're sad, they're having a hard day and they're pinching their eyebrows together and they're rolling their...they're pulling their mouth onto a frown and they're worried and they're anxious, we will subtly begin to mirror pinching yourself or pulling our mouth down so we can feel as they feel. And so if you show off with really confident, powerful verbal and nonverbal, other people are more likely to also mimic our competence or confidence and then feel better and more confident themselves. This is a way that I think we can act that is like giving gifts, right? You're giving these gifts of competence and confidence. If you can't do it for yourself, do it for others.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:16
A long time ago, I heard someone say that, you know, one of the best gifts we can give is listening to other people. However, I would argue that, to your point, one of the best gifts that we can give is not just listening to other people, but maybe even in how you listen and interact with other people. So very much appreciate that,

Vanessa Van Edwards 25:36
And like adding the engagement, right, like we can't listen actively or passively. But if we listen actively, we're actually creating contagion, which is super cool.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:44
Yeah, I like it. You mentioned imagery. I'm gonna change topics on you here for a moment. Because, I'm fascinated by the imagery side. And literally right before this, I always have this routine where, you know, anybody who I'm going to be talking to, I will click on their LinkedIn profile or their website or something else, like just to get a picture in front of me. So I can, you know, imagine the conversation that's about to take place. That said, I clicked on your LinkedIn profile, and you had this post about a launch party that you were doing. And one of the pieces in there was, hey, you know, you want me to take a look at your LinkedIn profile or the picture in there. And I was curious about that, in particular, because I think that is something that many people don't give a second thought to, that was actually the imagery side, but partially, you know, LinkedIn, which is becoming more and more and more widely used every day. So tell me a little bit about what we should be looking for or could be looking for. Let's say that we want to convey confidence and likeability in a LinkedIn photo, for example.

Vanessa Van Edwards 26:44
So what's happening and I think you're absolutely right is we are forgetting that we are very rarely getting a true first impression anymore. Why? Because everyone is googling us for clicking on our links. So our first impressions are actually happening digitally, right? If people have searched you beforehand, which is a lot of the time, right, like a lot of interviews, a lot of meetings, even like I'm now meeting colleagues digitally, before I'm even meeting them in person, you want to make sure that your digital first impression is exactly how they want to come across in person. And luckily, this is actually easier, I actually think it's easier to maintain a great static digital first impression, it's harder to do it in person, we have to make sure that they align. The biggest mistake I think a lot people are making nowadays is they have this amazing digital first impression, and it doesn't match up with the real self, or they have a terrible digital first impression doesn't match their true self. So we want it to be accurate, that's very important. And we think about imagery. So there's a couple, there's two kinds of cues that we're sending in our digital first impression. In those first few milliseconds of someone seeing you, they are getting very quick but very simple cue. So they just looking at your picture, they're looking at your gestures, your expression, your posture, your colors, but they're also very quickly looking at the first few words of your headline. So just like we talked about the verbal cues for your first 10 words out of your mouth, you also want those first 10 words in your headline to matter. It's usually it's a very quick snapshot, but I don't want you to do is to go sterile. That's the mistake actually see verbally on impressions as people use either buzzwords or they use really sterile words like they're just their general title, or company that used to do this workout. Is there a way that you can set yourself up for success by using the kind of words you want people to associate with you? So think about what is your ideal first impression? When people meet you, what do you want them to say about you? Collaborative? Trustworthy? Competent? Powerful? Consider using those words in your headline. Remember, people are very triggered by those cues that associate you more likely to associate with those words, if they're true, they always want to make sure they're true. So think about using words that carry more power that are purposeful in the first few lines of your headline. On the imagery side, you have lots of choices. So we're constantly sending out imagery cues, that's the colors we wear, the props we hold, the props we wear, the props behind us. And so I think instead of making those sterile, a lot of people have, you know, white background today, unfortunately, I have a background.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:06
You have the red.

Vanessa Van Edwards 29:07
Yes. So that I knew I was like, "Oh, I'm going to be in a really horrible conference room. So I'm wearing red, friends. I'm wearing red today." Because I knew I had to balance out the boringness was behind me. So I want you to think about, you know, if you're going for a traditional corporate professional goal, yeah, you want to wear a business suit and a tie. If that's not your vibe, if you want to go more casual, if you want to be more in a team easy going natural setting, take off the blazer and put on something more casual. Your background, if you want to be in a traditional setting, you want to show a traditional setting, but if you want to be doing something more adventurous, more exciting, a little bit different, consider using a more exciting, more interesting background. So I think that we have to match all those cues, like, people often think, "Oh, it's a good picture of me. Therefore it's good enough." It's not just about being good or flattering photo. It's a contextually good photo, so you look good and like yourself and your context what you're wearing, what's behind you, what's your holding is also on the money.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:05
I feel like that is a lens that is very commonly asked, like, I think about questions that we've been asked over the years, and most of them are, "Hey, what's good versus bad." However, I don't find that that's a particularly useful way to look at anything for that matter whether we're talking about imagery, whether it's photos, whether we're talking about headlines, it doesn't matter.

Vanessa Van Edwards 30:26
You're absolutely right. It's not good or bad. And that's a really important distinction. In fact, I'll give a very specific example for a prop. So I have a student who wants to pivot his career from corporate leader to politics. He's in a new phase of his career. He wants to be an activist. So when he was in the corporate part of his career, he wore a business suit and tie, right. So we were talking about, okay, well, how are we going to signal this change? Right? This is a massive change in your careers, and you're gonna be blasting your network, you're gonna be fundraising, you want to signal this. So what's a very easy way, I'm going to give you a little pop quiz here, let's see, can you think of a really easy way to signal... I'm running for office. What's the prop? Can you think of it? When I say, you're gonna be like, "Oh, of course."

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:08
I would say something in the background, or you're at a White House looking or... Tell me.

Vanessa Van Edwards 31:15
So you could totally do a monument right behind you. Absolutely. But a flag pin.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:21
Obviously!

Vanessa Van Edwards 31:22
I mean, when you see someone in a room, and they have a flag pin on, you're like, "So politics?" Like, we associate that small, tiny visual cue with either political ambitions or a strong stance. And so we changed the picture, we took off his time, because he wanted to be a little bit more, you know, the people, he's much more civically minded. So we took off the time, and he's still in a business suit. And he added us a little bit, a little US flag pin. And that was a completely different signal or visual cue that spoke for him. Now, his first impression is much closer to where he wants to go. And it's a really, really small, subtle change. But if that cue is helping speak for him, I think that that's why I'm so glad you mentioned good versus bad, is your cues can work for you. Right? Like if you want to signal something ahead of your first impression, or without you even having to say anything, those visual cues can help you with that– a flag pins is one of them.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:14
So do you feel like you have to, since you have an entire book on cues, do you feel the pressure when you're at something like this to have all the cues that you want to? Tell me about that. What goes on in your head?

Vanessa Van Edwards 32:27
I feel free, finally, actually. There was many years where I was trying on the 96 cues myself, right? Like I was like trying this one. I'm like, I have some that I like that I don't like, like, for example cue, I don't use this the thumb pinch, right? Like this is a favorite of Barack Obama, he has a fist and he puts his thumb on top. And that for me, I don't know, just like, am I holding a wand? Like...

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:47
Harry Potter's.

Vanessa Van Edwards 32:48
Yeah. Like, you know, it's like Leviosa. Like, I don't know, it doesn't work for me. So there was many years where I was trying on these cues, and then when I would find one that hit, I want to talk about it. But because I didn't have this, you know, language, I hadn't cataloged them yet, I was sort of like I discovered this recipe that I couldn't share. So actually, no, I felt so much relief now that we're all talking about these cues. Because I feel like I can be myself, I can use the cues that I find natural. And when I don't find one that's natural, I can be like, "Oh, that was weird. I don't know why I did that cue". And so in a weird way, I'm really happy that I can have this shared language with my partner, with my team, with my colleagues, like, my interviews are more fun now, because we can talk about specific things that work and don't work for us, for me, for you. So now it's been so much easier. Actually, it's been so much easier.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:06
That is fantastic. What advice would you give to people who really want to get started mastering, not all the cues, as we said earlier, but really identifying what is going to work for themselves and then get going on it if they had to do just one thing? Well, just one action or activity, what advice.

Vanessa Van Edwards 34:01
It's kind of a weird piece of advice, but I think it's the one really specific thing you can do, which is... there was a specific study I mentioned the book, such a funny, funny study. They had speakers come onstage and give a short presentation. Then they had speakers, think of Steve Jobs, and channel Steve Jobs and give another presentation. Just this exercise immediately improved the speaker's performance. They stayed on stage longer, they felt better about their presentation, they use more dynamic gestures, they had better vocal power, like everything got better simply by just thinking of Steve Jobs. So what I would say is everyone should have like a speaking or a charisma role model. I love The Rock. Okay, I think The Rock is super charismatic. I had a breakdown. I'm just accusing my YouTube channel because I wanted an excuse to watch eight hours of interviews of The Rock and I found that when I channel my charisma role models, my own nonverbal, my verba,l my vocal changes and I can try on cues. So very simply, over the next few weeks, I want you to channel whoever your charisma role model is and see what you know, what you do. You know, are you trying to use in different gestures? Are you using different vocal cues? Does that make you feel more empowered? Those can be the first few cues you can try to add to your repertoire.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:10
That is fantastic. I very much appreciate you taking the time and making the time. And by the way, the book is "Cues: Master the Secret Language of Charismatic Communication" small signals, incredible impact. And thank you for coming on and giving us so many specific examples. I appreciate it very, very much.

Vanessa Van Edwards 35:29
Oh, my goodness. I want to thank you so much for having me for letting me share all this work. For anyone who's listening if you're a recovering, awkward person, and you're trying to make your cues work for you, remember, one cue at a time.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:44
Most of our episodes on Happen To Your Career often showcase stories of people that have identified and found and taken the steps to get to work that they are absolutely enamored with, that matches their strengths, and is really what they want in their lives. And if that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that is awesome, you can actually get on the phone with us and our team and we can have a conversation to find the very best way that we can help. It's super informal. And we try to understand what your goals are, where you want to go, and what specifically you need our help with. And then we figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like, and sometimes even customize that type of help. And then we make it happen. The really easy way to schedule a conversation with our team is just go to scheduleaconversation.com, that scheduleaconversation.com, and find a time that works best for you. We'll ask you a few questions, as well. And then we'll get you on the phone to figure out how we can get you going to work that you really want to be doing that fits your strengths, that you love, and you're enamored with, Hey, I can't wait to hear from you.

Speaker 3 37:06
As I've noticed that I get a lot more meaning out of the work that I do, out of the people that I hang out with, out of the experiences that I have, when there's less freedom ironically, within which I get to choose from. So I think, to me, freedom means the appropriate boundaries and constraints within which to play with full freedom.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:26
All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

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Don’t Worry, Be Happy: How Success Looks Different For Everyone

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As humans, we have a tendency to compare ourselves to one another. This is a bad idea, especially when it comes to measuring success. My measure of success may not be the same as yours. And that’s OK.

That’s because success looks different for everyone.

After working with thousands of people, we’ve observed that when you worry about other people’s opinions (even if it’s family or friends), it could negatively impact your potential success.

What you’ll learn

  • Why you need to define success for yourself
  • How outside opinions negatively impact your success
  • What you need to do to get out of your own way
  • How to finally stand up for yourself

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"When I started I was afraid of making the wrong decision! My career was incredibly important to me and I didn't want to screw it up or waste time making a move I wouldn't enjoy! Scott helped me learn what my strengths are and what is most important to me… but more important than that I learned about what I can't stop doing that I have to have in my work to make me happy"

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Scott has been a tremendous help in bringing focus to my business. Scott enlightened my path towards concentrating on my strengths and doing what I love. I recommend Scott Anthony Barlow to anyone who wants clarity about what they should be doing, and the next step to make your business successful.

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I greatly appreciate your help in bringing this along because I wouldn't have had the confidence to negotiate and to be where I am today without the help of a lot of other people. You played a really significant role in it. I'm not going to be that everyday person that hates my job, I'm going to stretch and I'm going to aspire to be better and I'm not going to make that everyday salary. Thank you Scott for putting this out there for all the people that are trying to do a little bit better and trying to go a little bit farther. This is awesome. I love this. This thing that you do, the whole HTYC thing, from the paperwork all the way down to the podcast and just helping people understand that there is success out there and it is attainable but you've got to work for it.

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Scott, and Lisa and the whole team it's been a pleasure to work with you. I’ve been talking to everyone about your program and think the best of the work you do and the tools you put out. It took me a few months to look for outside help. That was the thing I needed. Particularly as someone who has been successful it was hard for me to say I could not do this by myself. I’m a smart person I should be able to figure this out. As soon as I had my first career coaching experience it completely turned around my approach to find a new job. It completely gave me the power back and the tools I needed. If you know exactly what you want to do, you probably aren’t listening to this podcast, but if you don’t know there are a lot of tools, and resources, and people out there that can help you. For me that made all the difference.

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Celena Singh 00:01
What if I won the lottery on Friday? And somebody in the meeting said, "Hell would freeze over, it would never happen." And a week later, I put in my resignation for work, and the subject line said, "I won the lottery." And the main line said, "Hell froze over and what that meant, and I will be resigning in two months."

Introduction 00:27
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:51
As humans, we have a tendency to compare ourselves to each other more than a little bit. Sometimes this can be a great thing. It fosters friendly competition, setting goals to achieve. But many times this is a terrible idea, especially when it comes to measuring success. My measure of success probably is not the same as yours. And that's okay, as it turns out, and that's because success looks different for everyone. Now, I think that we all know this, it doesn't necessarily make it any easier. And after working with thousands of people, we've observed that when you worry about other people's opinions, it can negatively impact your potential success. And this is true, even if it's your parents.

Celena Singh 01:34
And their advice was, you know, "Keep your head down. Do your job. Don't, you know, make any trouble and, you know, don't get yourself fired" because we are, you know, my parents migrated from another country over 50 years ago. And that was the mindset that they came here with. And I was like, "Okay, well. I have to do, you know, what my parents say, and, you know, do all the right things."

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:55
That's Celena Singh. As a child of immigrants, she had the privilege of growing up with two different cultures– the one her parents brought over from their old country and the one here in the United States. The difficult part of this is that she didn't want to disappoint her parents. So she ended up staying in her job way longer than what she wanted to. But spoiler alert, if we fast forward, Celena actually just recently joined the HTYC team as our book project leader, which is pretty awesome. So there's a great end to the story. But listen as my conversation with Celena begins, you'll hear what led her on this journey in the first place, how she transitioned and I want you to pay attention to some of the really what many people might look at and call "extreme decisions" that she had to make in order to get where she wanted to go. Let's first go back to over 25 years ago.

Celena Singh 02:55
I started my career at Hydro One around 1997. Prior to starting at Hydro One, I really wanted to become a sports broadcaster, and I went to school for about a year. And then I had an opportunity to purchase a house at a very young age. And I purchased the house with my parents' help and sports broadcasting was like a dream after that. So I had to find a job where I felt that I could make some money and my parents would be proud of me. And I was able to, from a resource, I was able to find out about this project that where this company was hiring and long story short, I was able to secure a job with Hydro One and I thought "life is made" my parents were like, "Okay, you've won the lottery. You've got up for life." Yeah, exactly. Woohoo. You know, like, "Hey, little old me, I found this great job." And their advice was, you know, "Keep your head down. Do your job. Don't, you know, make any trouble and you know, don't get yourself fired" because we are, you know, my parents migrated from another country over 50 years ago. And that was the mindset that they came here with. And I was like, "Okay, well, I have to do, you know, what my parents say and, you know, do all the right things." And I started 23 years old at the company that I worked at for 24 years, and I made a lot of changes in the company, meaning changes in roles. I truly never felt like I belonged in any role. I started at the very bottom as a call center agent, and I moved into billing, I moved into metering, I moved into supervising, I moved into managing teams that I had no idea, I wasn't an engineer or any of those careers where people were normally managers, but I had something and I didn't really quite know at the time what it was because I just did whatever I was told and shifted where I thought, you know, where people told me I needed to go. And COVID, I will say, and you know, beginning of COVID, something shifted for me. I think it shifted actually a couple years before for that, but I really wasn't listening to my inner mentor, so to speak, my inner... myself, like, what I really truly wanted, I was doing what everybody else wanted me to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:09
When you say something shifted several years before COVID, what do you feel like it was at the time that you were not listening to that shifted, or what prompted that shift?

Celena Singh 05:20
Experiencing some not so great employees at work. And because I worked in a unionized environment, I was being kind of told to do, you know, my job, which I was trying to do, and then was kind of getting in trouble, which I was not used to ever getting in trouble my entire life. I was getting in trouble for doing my job. And I started to better understand, it took quite a few years to understand what a unionized environment meant, because I grew up on a farm, you know, my parents have had a farm for a very long time, and you did everything on the farm, and you didn't complain, everybody worked together. So I went from that environment to doing what I was told, and then getting in trouble for doing my job. I had, you know, grievances, like everybody gets these things. So it's, like, but I took them very personally. And it just kept happening. And I think it was 2018, the shift actually happened when I was sitting in a meeting in another mediation meeting with guarding an employee and just something that happened. And the mediator brought me into a room, and it was just her and I and she said, "I probably can get fired for saying this. But I'm going to say this to you." And she said, "This is going to continue to happen to you if you don't make a change." She said, "I would highly recommend you either find a different company that is not unionized to work at or start your own business" because she said "you are a badass, and you need to do that. And this is not the place for you." And she said that I was clinically cold, but not in a bad way. Like she said, it's not a bad thing. She says, "You hold your composure." At first, I was like, "What did she say?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:01
"What do you mean?"

Celena Singh 07:02
Yeah. And she said, I was clinically cold. And she said, "You've held your composure for all of these years." And she goes, "I don't know where you've put all that stuff, but you need to do something else and deal with that." And I went, "Okay..." and then I'm like, "Am I gonna get fired?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:19
What happens next?

Celena Singh 07:20
Yeah, so anyways, it actually made a huge shift in my thinking, I thought, "Oh, my gosh, nobody has ever said something like that to me." And I thought, you know, I was doing all the right things, I was working hard and working overtime and changing jobs, and, you know, sacrificing my health and my marriage, and who knows what else and all of a sudden, it's like, you need to run as fast as you can from here. And it wasn't the company, it was, what my limiting beliefs, my beliefs that I was programmed into, all kinds of things. My parents are amazing, and they have taught me a lot of things. But some of the things I feel for myself and for the next generation is important to shift that thinking. And that's kind of where my thinking shifted.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:04
I think that's always a really fascinating and also difficult time for many people where we start to realize that what we grew up with, maybe has served us well, or certainly potentially served our parents well, but is no longer serving us well. And I'll only speak for myself personally, however, that was definitely and continues to be very, very challenging to even, one, recognize where it's happening, and two, to be able to change those pieces. So kudos to you for beginning to recognize at that point in time that that was happening, because many people will go through their entire lives without recognizing that that's at play. What were some of the biggest takeaways that you began to realize, or what were some of the biggest areas where you realized that type of thinking was no longer serving you?

Celena Singh 08:55
I started seeing the people I was hanging around with, you know, it made a difference to me, like I would be talking to some friends like on the side of my corporate role, I studied to become a yoga teacher, as well as I studied to become a holistic nutritionist because of my health issues that I was, not struggling with, but I was noticing so many things. And so when I was hanging around with people in yoga and hanging around people from a nutrition side, not everybody, because that has its challenges, too. I was seeing like I was a different person and I didn't know what imposter syndrome was, but I felt like that's what it was. I mean now I know that's exactly what it was is, I can be myself and my, you know, the areas that I really enjoyed and then I have this more than one mask at work and it was like "okay, this is not right" like all of these things that people are telling me is not right and as I was kind of changing like standing up or, like, standing up for myself and others for different things, all of a sudden, I could see people... I don't know if they felt threatened or maybe they felt intimidated because I always just used to do whatever I was told and then it was like, "I don't like myself like this" like, it's now it's like time for me to look in the mirror and say like, "what were my actions in some of these things that happened?" And it's hard to do that because it's like doing, like, a 360 interview on yourself, or something like that on yourself, right? And asking other people, and I was asking people in environments like, you know, in my yoga environment and my nutrition environment, because I felt like people would be honest, but not mean to me. And it didn't have to be mean, like being honest. It was great. Like, I love the honesty. And I started taking courses on emotional intelligence. And we actually had to do exercise as part of our emotional intelligence program to ask eight people some questions about how do you manage your emotions? How do you react? Do you respond? How are you in different things? And I was terrified to do that. And I did it. And then I was pleasantly surprised of how, well... I was pleasantly surprised about the feedback. And then again, I was like, "Celena, you're so hard on yourself all the time. Of course, everybody thinks you're amazing. Like, why don't you?" And that's where I had to start down on bit of a journey of really getting to know myself better, and what I like and what I don't like, and really what I want to do in life.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:11
Do you remember one of the first times where you began standing up for yourself? I heard you say earlier that, "I had always just done whatever people had asked me to do or told me to do and that began to change" it sounded like as you started getting more comfortable with what you wanted, and yourself. Do you remember one of those first times? And what happened?

Celena Singh 11:33
The first time that I can, I mean, there's many but the one that really, as soon as you asked me that question, it was last year on... I can remember the date, it was last year on around March the 6th, and I was in a meeting with a few people. And it was only have like, say, less than 10 people. And I was asking for some support on some, it was actually COVID protocols that I was working on which, you know, pandemic happen all the time so I must know how to do this work. And I was asking for some support, and I wasn't receiving the support that I was asking for. And I felt... because I asked a couple of people before the meeting, does this feel like a reasonable ask? And then all of a sudden, I ask, and it was like crickets. And so in the meeting, I asked a question, because someone was like, "Oh, you can do this" so I'm like, but there's 10 other people I can think of like right away that could help with this. They have the skills, they want to do some of this work. So why not, you know, give them the opportunity? And they kept saying no, kept saying no. And so I made a comment, and I said, "What if I won..." it was on Wednesday, let's say and I said, "What if I won the lottery on Friday?" And nobody said anything. And they said, "What do you mean?" And I said, "What if I won the lottery on Friday? What would you guys do? Like, I know all... I have every COVID protocol in my head. I've documented some of them. And what if I won the lottery on Friday?" And I said, "Okay, what would you do?" And somebody in the meeting said, "Hell would freeze over it would never happen." And I said, "Oh, you don't think that could happen?" And a week later, and it wasn't because it was I had any bitter feelings, I just did some work. And I put in my resignation for work, and the subject line said, "I won the lottery." And the main line said, "Hell froze over and what that meant." And I said that "After 24 years, I've decided to do heart centered work, and I will be resigning in two months." And that was probably the first time I ever felt like I was my true self. Because I felt, like, so good about it. I have no, absolutely no regrets. And I will add that I had actually signed up with Happen To Your Career on the day that I made that or week before I made that decision. And I knew that Happen To Your Career would help me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:49
I don't think I entirely realized that those were so closely intertwined. So tell me about that decision, because that is, by no circumstances, a small decision. It is by no circumstances, a lightweight decision. And also, I had just heard you say that in making that decision to leave this organization in which, it sounds like for 24 years never really found a fit in any way whatsoever. I believe that's what I heard you said earlier.

Celena Singh 14:19
Yeah, that's correct. I never felt like I belonged.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:22
Yeah. In doing so, it also sounds like that was the first time that you ever really felt like yourself. So what led... take me through what it took to make that type of decision?

Celena Singh 14:33
It was really sitting down and when I read through, okay, I'll just say this, that when we read through what the Career Change Bootcamp would do, I was like, "Okay, you know what? This is what I want. Like, I need to go through this to find myself, to understand..." You hear companies and I'm not just talking about the company I work for, I'm just in general, about core values and know what matters to you and my core values or my personal values have never lined up with corporate. And so I feel like no matter where I went in corporate because of this, you know, the corporate I was used to, the corporate that when my parents came to this country, that's what corporate meant, was I wouldn't belong there, because I just didn't line up with a lot of those things. So if someone's going to say, you know, for example, "We're one company." Okay, what does that mean? That means something to me would mean something different to you. So how do we... I want to work, I think that for me, I want to work somewhere where I feel like, when someone says, a core value, we're not using it as a, "well, that's a core value" it's just blended into your everyday, right, what your values are. And I feel like after 24 years, and looking at what the company, you know, this company gave me opportunities, and that they gave me the opportunities, or did I create opportunities based on working, you know, and the roles that I was at, I mean, it was just... I was thinking about how my parents get, like, "what my parents gonna think if I decide to do this?" And my husband was extremely supportive, and we had been talking about it, you know, on and off. And I feel like he knew how loyal I was to the company. I think he just kind of thought, "Well, we'll have a plan" as we normally do. I'm a planner, and it may not happen. And I, you know, was seeing, like a therapist, and just some, you know, just some help, just trying to just talk to some people that were not, you know, close to my life, like they would be, you know, unbiased. And so there was, again, my emotional intelligence coach, and just a few people and they weren't making this, like, I wasn't looking for someone to make the decision for me, which was amazing, because they were not, like, they were not there that says, "Hey, I'm here to talk to you, and let's, you know, do our thing." And it came down to, I want to do better for the next generation, I want the next generation to do better and how... I felt like a hypocrite, you know, if I didn't do this. Like, I'm like, okay, I have this cushy job, and I can do it for the next seven years, retire with this amazing pension. And then I have, you know, five nephews and three nieces who I love, and some of them already doing some of these things that I want to do, you know, at my age, and I'm like, "I have to do this." And it's like, okay, so when I talked to the pension coordinator, and when they gave me all the information, it was like, it really didn't matter about the money, it was the person... the pension coordinator said, "I cannot believe that you're doing this, because it's just nobody does this." He goes, "I have so many people who have these conversations" I think you were in HR, Scott, people talked to you about it in the past is that, you know, "I want to do this, this and this, and this." And then he goes, "99% of people don't do it." And I said, "Oh, I'm gonna do it." Yep. After you... since we just talked, I said, "I'm good. You send me the paperwork of what we just talked about." And within an hour, my husband had half an hour notice, and I sent out the email. Because I knew it was the right thing to do. Everything was lined up, I had a plan to, you know, look at my career going forward. I didn't have to really worry about, you know, money, which you know, how many people can say that, I didn't have to worry about money. I'm not rich, but I have enough that I can do what I'd like to do in life. So that's kind of where I have a long way of saying how I got there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:14
You know, I think that there's so much in here that you just mentioned. If we're peeling apart the layers, first of all, let's acknowledge that you are a planner. I think you've done a really nice job creating a situation for yourself to where you could make this type of decision. Because you've done a nice job with planning and with money and other things like that to where that decision becomes possible. And you've built a foundation for yourself to make different types of decisions for your life, which I think is amazing. And a lot of people don't realize that that has to, in many ways, come first. And the second thing is, two, and I'm not just talking about money, but I'm talking about prioritizing what is most important to create a foundation for other things, too. And another example of that is something else that I think you did really, really well here. At some point, you started practicing prioritizing what was more important to you. And it sounds like you've done such a great job practicing that in small ways as you began, you know, attending yoga and other things like that. You were bringing those tiny pieces into your life in much smaller ways that then added up to you be able to make larger, more declarative prioritizations. And that's something that is not easy to do. And also on the outside, I think everybody else on the outside when you hear that type of story, it's like "Okay, well, just one day we decided to just like do the thing" but there was so much leading up to that that'll allow you to do the thing and I just want to say first of all, congratulations because that's super cool that you've made that type of decision for yourself. And second of all, I just wanted to unpack for a moment, like all that you said up till now that led up to you being able to do, like, do the thing, which is amazing.

Celena Singh 19:57
I think the way that you just do and the other people say it too is, "I don't think I, you know, I give myself, and I think others, we don't give ourselves enough credit for saving our money." I mean, I started saving money when I was 10. And, you know, working on the farm and my little envelopes. And like I said, it's not just about money, it's just about, you know, so many other things like, you know, so then what are you going to do? And how do you want to be? And, who do you want to be around? How do you want to spend your time? You know, all of those things and not, you know, setting some boundaries because it's really about, what is it that I want to do, and not, again, what does everybody else want me to do with this stage of my life now.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:34
Yeah. And I think that what's not obvious to so many people, especially as we talk about stories like yours on the podcast, and how people made one type of change from one to another, or left a role, or in your case, a whole series of roles that were not a fit over a period of time, it's not always obvious what are all those parts and pieces that lead up to it. And I really look at career change of any kind, or defining and developing and finding each of our ideal careers as a continuous process, as a continuous refinement process, where you're just building the stage to the next level of refinement to allow you to thrive. And I think that, on one hand, as I think about your story, there's little tiny elements of that there. But on the other hand, too, I am really very curious about when you look back, what do you feel like was most difficult for you to get to the point where you made that decision? As you think about everything that led up to it, you know, 24 years of career as you look back, what were some of the most difficult pieces?

Celena Singh 21:45
I think getting out of... number one is getting out of my own way. And that self doubt and the fear, because I really didn't talk to a lot of people about it beforehand, which in the past, I would have probably talked to so many people, and again, that just introduces so many layers of okay, well, this person said this, and this. And again, I think COVID helped with this by working from home as I was home, like, all of the time and I had meetings, but it did kind of take away from the environment where you had to make small talk with people. So it was more like you could focus on, like, other things like, oh, "You know what? I really like, you know, not getting... I like getting up early, but I really liked fitting in my workout in the morning, instead of working out, you know, later on in the day." And so I think it's getting out of my own way, not thinking about what everybody else would think, thinking about wow, like, if I do this, like I would be the first person in my family to do something like this. And you know, in my family, it's like, you know, my father started working very young, my mother started working very young, and they still work in their 70s, which is okay, it's good for them. And there is a balance, and we didn't have that. And that's where I was thinking, "Well, they're not gonna understand, like, they're gonna be like, what do you do? What are you going to do all day?" And I think it was just kind of going, but that's okay, that they can feel that way and other people can feel that way. And it really was, "What do you do? What do I think? And how do I want to live? And, what examples do I want to set?" You know, and again, going back to the next generation of... and even just like, what does Happen To Your Career talk about is meaningful work and really embodying that, right, is doing things like... in order to do things that mean something, it doesn't mean that you have to work 24 hours a day, seven days a week, it's actually probably you're working less and gaining so much more. And so it was just kind of a shift in mindset and really all the things I was learning, whether it was yoga, meditation, all types of things that I was learning, it was really embodying that and not just going, "Oh, I have all the knowledge. Now I know what to do." It's actually embodying and practicing all of these things consistently. And that's what really led up to the decision.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:52
When you think about what helped you along the way, I heard you say earlier, getting out of your own way, but also I heard you say, try not to worry about or try not to think about what other people are thinking. And certainly that has influenced a lot of your choices in the past and a variety of ways, both good and maybe potentially less good for you. However, in this case, you were able to move past that and focus more on what you wanted and being okay with the situation if someone else thought, "Hey, that's not the right thing for you." So what helped you move past that? It's really what I would be interested in understanding because it's one thing to say it, it's another thing to do it.

Celena Singh 24:35
Setting boundaries was one thing with a lot of people. My parents thought I was crazy. They said, "Can you go back? Like, can you retract that email?" And I was like, I don't want to. And I said, "I can, actually" and I gave myself actually two months, not just because I was going to retract, it was more I wanted to make sure I felt like I owed the company that two months to, you know, transition all of that good stuff. And it was like, I had to set some boundaries with my parents, I had to have some really hard conversations with them because I live right beside them too. So it's like, you know, they're like, "You can't do this, like, you know, this, this and this." And I went, and we there was all like, they're amazing people, it's just that was what they believed, now you just keep working. And, you know, what about your pension? You're not going to get all of this. And I'm like, "I know. I know that I've worked all of these years. And those things, they, you know, money, you know, when we have to live and all that good stuff. And I want to enjoy life." I said both my parents started working very... have been working since... my dad was six when he started working, my mom was like, 12. And I said, "I want you to be proud of my career, and all of the other things you don't even know that I can do that I want to improve on." And they're like, "But what do you mean?" And I'm like, "Did you know that I'm going to start, like, I would like to start a podcast?" And they're like, "what is that?" You know, they're like, "How much money is that going to pay you?" I'm like, "Well, that's the thing. Like I've set my life up to..." so I explained them "I set my life up. So I don't have to worry about that. And that I can shift. I don't need to you know, all of these things that I used to think that made me happy, I don't need those things anymore. I want you both to see that the hard work that you've put in and sacrifices, now that I don't have to work as hard. And then the next generation doesn't have to work as hard." It definitely helped having that conversation. At first they were looking at me like I had three heads. And I said "Yeah, I mean, I don't think you can be in a normal mindset to do it. I mean, you definitely need to be in a mindset where it's okay what everybody else thinks. But you don't have to do what they say. It's okay. Thank you for your feedback. And be very conscientious of who you're asking for feedback from" because, yep, some people in my life would have talked to me for hours about why this was the wrong decision. So my circle of friends really changed after I made the decision. I had many, many people sending me emails, asking me what lottery I won.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:08
I didn't see anything on the news.

Celena Singh 27:10
Yeah, exactly. Saying I won the lottery of life made no sense to most of the people I worked with, because that's what I felt like, I felt like I won the lottery of life. So that I heard on a podcast, I think it was just on Monday that you had with Liz, and she was talking about the book, the second mountain, I was like, "Oh my gosh, that's a book that I read in 2019." That it was such a major book in my shift, as well as that book. And there's a book called "A Choice" and the "Gift", like all of these books, there's a little piece of it that helped me to make, you know, that change and going okay, leaving, I felt like it was in that valley. And now I'm coming up that second mountain and now I'm, like, just like, "Hey, you know what, the sky's the limit." I didn't think there was any other company or any other place I could go, you know, with my age. And just because I spent so many years in a company and the culture that, frankly, it's just very difficult to break that mindset that you may not fit in anywhere else. I didn't fit in there anyway. So it's okay, I will fit in somewhere.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:15
I think that that is definitely something that I've heard many times over in conversations with people that, you know, what if I don't, and then whether it's fit in, or any number of other things after that, like fill in the blank here. And it's that line of thinking that is really normal for us as humans, it is built into how we're hardwired. And it is a big component of human psychology. And I think the studies that I've seen on how we evaluate loss, and much, much greater and we give so much more weight to that potentially, even loss that isn't even a real thing, like you said, you know, "I didn't fit in there anyway." So the fact that you are perceiving that you might lose something that you didn't even have, is still getting time and attention. And that's normal for us as humans, however, being able to move through that is very, very difficult, and being able to understand that that's what's at play, and again, I just want to say congratulations on that one, you began to recognize that and we're doing something about it the entire time. And also it leads me to the next question of you afterwards, after you left, began experimenting, it sounds like with a variety of different areas. And I'm curious, would you be willing to share some of those experiments? I know you did start a podcast and we'd love to hear more about that. But also what other ways have you experimented and also what have you learned about what creates a much more fulfilling career for you?

Celena Singh 29:39
One interesting thing when I was working with Alistair is we did the design experiments and I really love doing that. So, you know, I started doing informational interviews, I reached out to a few people that, you know, through other contacts and I really enjoy talking to people about you know, their career, not just to careers, but just getting to kind of know them and what they're doing now and so I really enjoy doing that, the informational interviews and I apply for a job, a role actually, with my favorite sports team and which is the Toronto Maple Leafs.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:13
Wait, hold on. How have we not had this conversation? Have we had this conversation?

Celena Singh 30:17
I don't know why.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:18
You're a Leafs fan?

Celena Singh 30:19
I am a Leafs fan.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:21
Ah, very cool. We are huge hockey fans here. Seattle has given us the Kraken which personally are having a mediocre first year ever, but we'll get over it. Either way.

Celena Singh 30:33
I'm a Leafs fan. They haven't won in 54 years.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:35
Oh my goodness. Yes. Yeah. Who's like the Boston Red Sox of the NHL? Yes. Pull off the curse. Okay. All right. So you're a Leafs fan. I like you even more now. And also, at the same time, you accepted a... or you applied for a role.

Celena Singh 30:52
I applied for a role, which was a... it actually posted, like shortly after I retired from my job and it was at almost like an apprenticeship to work with a team and they had a coaching apprenticeship and a management. It was like mentorship or apprenticeship geared towards diversity and inclusion, that was part of their diversity inclusion and one of their initiatives was to hire two people either, who are African-American or indigenous or part of a marginalized group. And my husband actually sent me the posting, and he said, "You totally need to apply." And I read it. And I talked to Alistair about it. And, you know, I actually ended up saying this on my podcast, I talked about it, it didn't work out. I mean, but going through the process of applying, they asked to do, not just send your resume, they actually also asked you to do a video, or a cover letter or a slide deck on who you were, like, personally. And so I did a slide deck. And I had no idea what Fiverr was until Alistair told me what Fiverr was, and...

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:58
Context, Fiverr is a place where you can go and like... I've used Fiverr many times, you know, when we needed to get some graphic design done, when we need to get a project created. It's a place where people with different skill sets can post jobs or what they call gigs to be able to have people that have those needs meet up with the people who have the skills to be able to do them, kind of, like an Upwork or similar.

Celena Singh 32:23
Kind of like to go for Bolton boards, right, like they used to put stuff on job boards. So now it's like this. So I actually hired, you know, worked with somebody on Fiverr to put my... I actually did a slide deck and I put pictures in it of my, like, who am I and how I connected with the Maple Leafs, like when I was three years old. So like around 1977, because of my dad. My dad started watching hockey, my dad, you know, came to Canada, as we're from in 1970. My parents originally from Guyana, and my dad wanted to, you know, be the best Canadian ever. So he you know, loves hockey, loves, you know, we have a baseball team. And I will always, you know, wanted to be like dad, and connect a lot very closely with my dad. So I wanted to know everything about hockey. And so I put a lot of that in my presentation about me and you know, my connection with my dad and the team. And also where I grew up, I was the only, well, everybody in my class was white in first eight years of my life. And so knowing about hockey was everybody talks about hockey. So I mean, I was pretty popular because I knew all the stats, and I was really great at sports. So then people stop teasing you or bullying you because you're like everybody else. And I was actually better because I was really great at sports, like I was amazing at sports. And still am, like I still love sports. And so I applied for the job. And I was not the successful applicant. And I was okay with that, because I received a really amazing letter from the General Manager. And it was you know, they basically just said that they really liked my presentation. And basically, there was a better fit, and I was okay, because I really enjoyed the process more than anything. Like, I would have done that job for free, or what I would have learned there. And I think I feel like I had something also to offer, not just what they would have given me, I had something to offer. So I think it would just been a great thing to, you know, tell my, you know, my nieces and nephews, kids when I get older, you know, another thing that I did, which is pretty cool.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:31
That's amazing. What do you feel like you learned out of that experience?

Celena Singh 34:35
I learned that there were just so many opportunities out there that I was not aware of, and that I have a lot of transferable skills, I have a lot of life experience that it means something and it didn't feel like it ever meant something before so and I feel like every, you know, whether it's roll on my podcast or whatever I'm doing, I feel like I'm worthy of it and I belong with, you know, with the things that I'm doing now.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:00
Why do you feel, from your perspective, because you've lived this a little bit, but what do you feel makes it so difficult when you are in the same organization or same role or same anything for a long period of time to be able to see what else is out there? Because I just heard you say two things that I believe some of the biggest challenges. One, I heard you say that it was difficult to just flat out didn't know all the things that could be out there. And you're right, there's so much out there, and even things that aren't actually out there can be created too. And then the other thing I heard you say, too, is that, well, it sounded like it was difficult to understand what the skills actually transferred outside of the environment that you'd been in so long. So on one hand, what do you think that makes it especially challenging? Why? Where did you see that for yourself? And then on the other hand, I'm curious what helped you begin to see that.

Celena Singh 35:53
I think you get very comfortable when you're in an environment where you can stay in your job, you can, you know, go in other jobs in the company, and you just, "Oh okay, so I've got all these things in place, you know, I've got the pension, yay. My parents are gonna be happy, I've got this, I've got that." And then this comfort, you feel comfortable. And the thing is, when I thought I was comfortable, actually, that's when my health would bother me more, because it was inside was going, "no, you're not comfortable." That's not what comfortable means. Like, that's not the only thing that you need to be comfortable later in life. And that's where I was like, "I really need to start paying attention to what is my body telling me. I mean, I love to exercise and I listen to my body that way. But I wasn't listening to my body when it came to these messages that you know, these signs that were coming to me through my health going, no, that is not what being comfortable feels like." And that's where the shift happened is when I was talking to people outside of my corporation, who I was friends, working with Alistair and I think with all the coaches, you know, you have your accountability team know what happens when things get hard. And not one person on my accountability team was somebody that I worked with, like, and because I wanted it to be... because I knew this was going to be something different, so I already knew I wanted to leave that environment, that corporate environment, and I thought, "Well, I don't need somebody saying no, you need to stay here." So the accountability team members that I had were either people who were self employed, or who had done something, maybe a different story, obviously different story than mine, maybe didn't wait as long as I did. So that really helped me to kind of see like, "Okay, so these feelings that I'm feeling they're actually true, like other people are saying, like, yep, you need to listen to those things." And I learned some skills on how to do that, whether it was meditating, or understanding better what is fear, like fear was a big thing, self doubt was a big thing. Who's gonna want to hire me after spending 24 years in the company? You know, I had to work hard for those roles and interview for them. But I knew exactly what I needed to do, where, you know, it was getting out of my comfort zone and doing things that, you know, getting into the areas that I really wanted to and going, "Yeah, I can totally do this if I want to. And I can learn things. I have transferable skills, and I'm really good at learning things quickly, adopting really well, I love... I didn't realize how much I like change until I left my company" because we talked about change all the time and I think it's that fine line that people want change. But then when it happens, it's the... it's like, "oh, my gosh, all this change", right? So I got into that kind of, you know, habit of going, yeah, we want all these changes, and then when they would happen, people wouldn't like them. And it was be, like, "No, but this is amazing." And how do you sell that if people like around you are just so used to change happening take so long? And I was just like, "Oh, we can change this really quickly. Let's do this and this and this." Like, oh, this is how people spend 25 years in the company, and walk away with a pension and then go, "I really don't know what I did", like, that should make a difference. You know.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:53
I think that's fascinating that once you remove yourself from that environment, that you realize that "Oh, I actually love change in so many different ways" it sounds like you didn't fully know about when you were there. That's really interesting.

Celena Singh 39:09
I was afraid of change.

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:10
Yeah. When you think back, I want you to go and put yourself in the shoes that you were in three, four years ago, when you started getting inklings of, "hey, this is really not right for me. And it's not been right for a long period of time." And you started... just were starting considering, "Hey, maybe there could be or should be, or might be something different" because I think that's where a lot of people are at in one way or another where they're just considering "Hey, should I make a change?" And you know, quite frankly, a lot of people would consider this type of change a pretty, pretty large change, right? So what advice would you give to those people that are considering "should I make this change? Should I prioritize something different in my life?"

Celena Singh 39:52
The advice that I would give is, I think it's really hard to do this and I really feel like people sat for 5 or 10 minutes and thought about, you know, instead of looking at, like you're looking at a menu and think like, there's so many things on the menu and go, "Okay, I've only picked the same thing every day or every year for how long." And there's so many things on there and think about, like, "What other things do you want on that menu?" And you don't have the solution it, it's really like, "What are your values? And what is it that you want? And do those things actually match up?" And it's good, and knowing that and surrounding yourself with people who... a very small group of people, who will be very unbiased with whatever you want to, you can talk to people, but I think having that conversation with yourself and saying, "This is what I want. This is what I don't want. How am I living my life right now?" And then, you know, looking at solutions, like possible solutions, I think, but doing those exercise, like that exercise, it seems like it's easy, it's not simple, or simple, it's not easy in doing it, I feel like it will make that shift, of course, this makes sense. I need to do this. And it'll help to take away the fear and the self doubt. And like you said, it doesn't happen overnight but it's taking that one step towards, you know, what you really want.

Scott Anthony Barlow 41:15
That's amazing. I love the idea of thinking about it as a menu and then asking, "Hey, am I okay with what's on the menu right here? Or do I want there to be more on the menu? Or do I need to go into an entirely different restaurant? I don't know."

Celena Singh 41:27
Exactly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 41:29
Yeah, that is a fantastic way to think about it. I know I said this earlier, but I just wanted to say again, really, really nice work here is always very difficult. Because when I get to have these conversations with people like you, Celena, who have done such a great job prioritizing different things than they were prioritizing in their life, and continuing to prioritize those pieces and parts that are most important to them going forward, we can never represent all the things that had to happen and all the work that had to be done in order to get there. It just seems as if it can be so easy and it is not easy, and I know that. So really, really wonderful job. And congratulations again. I appreciate it. I was super curious about when you said sports broadcasting earlier, was that tied into some of the reasons that you love the Leafs and hockey, and so many sports, what caused you to be interested in sports broadcasting?

Celena Singh 42:22
I watched sports from, you know, the time I was three years old, until when I started, I did sports broadcasting for a year, I always saw men doing it. And I thought I can do that. I know the stats. I know all this stuff. I never played, unfortunately, my parents couldn't afford, you know, for me to play. And I just... I was so good at the stats. And I just loved just when I would watch, like, there's a lot of great broadcasters out there that I would like to listen to, and I would like, "I would love to do that." Just to, maybe get more females interested in sports, right? Because they're, you know, my mother could care less to watch hockey. And the reason that you know, when I said I wanted to be a sports broadcaster, originally, she got it, because I used to drag her to the, you know, the local drugstore to buy like a... I don't care about my age, because at the time I was like, I don't know, 9 or 10 years old, it was like 25 cents for like the Saturday paper. And I love to cut the pages out, like, the pictures out and make scrapbooks. And then I would write little things about what I would say if I was a broadcaster. And that's really why. And I think that's why I started my podcast because I can do that now. And you know, I don't talk about sports all the time. And I love being in front of, like, watching you on the mic there is just... or just hearing you on the mic, you know, on your podcast, I was like, "I want to do that. I think it's so cool." And it's a lot of work. And it's a lot of fun work because whatever I put out there I put, you know, use a sports, you know, I put 110% into it and more. I put my heart and soul into that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 43:51
That's amazing. And I think it's so fun to see how little tidbits of the... like once you start paying attention to what you want, again, a little tidbits of the past start to pop up these little indications. So that's really fun to see that happen in that way for you. That's awesome. Anything else that we didn't already talk about or cover that you think would be useful for our audience to know? And if there's not anything that's totally okay, but open mic time, Celena.

Celena Singh 44:18
I just want to thank, you know, have you read the book "Playing big"?

Scott Anthony Barlow 44:22
I have had it quoted to me so many times that I feel like I've read it but I have not actually read it.

Celena Singh 44:28
I just started reading it two weeks ago and the person who told me to read this was... I was saying to her that "I was feeling some self doubt about where to take my podcast next. I want to start interviewing people." And she's like, "But you're so good. Like you sounds pretty good. And you know, when you're speaking yourself. So what's going on?" And I'm like, "I just found this self doubt that I'm not going to be good at it" and she goes, "Who's good at it?" Llike she goes, "Have you heard some of those?" And I said "No, that's true." And in "Playing Big" they talk about how fear is defined in two ways and how this actually helped me even with this podcast today, you know, this interview is there's two types of fear– one is the what if, worst case scenarios. And the other is what happens when you're in a place where you know, it's bigger than you expected. So expansion happens or energy gets better, or you actually connect to with your true self. That's a different type of fear. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, I was totally feeling the other type of fear. And I had no idea. I thought it was the what if that, oh my gosh, what if this happens, you know?" And I don't know, it's something about me that I've learned. And I think that, you know, it's important for people to really look at both of those types of fear and know that there's different ways to navigate them. It's not a one stop, you know, oh, just get over the fear, go get some, you know, hypnosis or something. No, it's more of, like, allow that fear. So sometimes when I meditate, it's like, there's some fear that will creep up. And that's why I listen to the music that I listened to after because it really helps to, it really, truly grounds me to go like, "No, I can do this." like, ground. And then yeah, I can do this. And it's the inner critic versus the inner mentor, they call it, which is amazing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 46:11
I love that.

Celena Singh 46:11
I love it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 46:19
Most of our episodes on Happen To Your Career often showcase stories of people that have identified and found and taken the steps to get to work that they are absolutely enamored with, that matches their strengths, and is really what they want in their lives. And if that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that is awesome, you can actually get on the phone with us and our team and we can have a conversation to find the very best way that we can help. It's super informal. And we try to understand what your goals are, where you want to go, and what specifically you need our help with. And then we figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like, and sometimes even customize that type of help. And then we make it happen. The really easy way to schedule a conversation with our team is just go to scheduleaconversation.com, that scheduleaconversation.com, and find a time that works best for you. We'll ask you a few questions, as well. And then we'll get you on the phone to figure out how we can get you going to work that you really want to be doing that fits your strengths, that you love, and you're enamored with, Hey, I can't wait to hear from you. Until next week, adios. I'm out.

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Achieve More Than Meaningful Work (& How To Ask For The Help You Need)

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Years ago, I wanted to learn more about how some people became what I now call Happy High Achievers – people who were successful in both their career and also in the other areas of life.

Fast forward to when we started HTYC, we had the goal to help many more people in the world become Happy High Achievers, not just to get to meaningful work. 

So what do you think stops people from making career changes to much more fulfilling work? What stops people from becoming Happy High Achievers?

What you’ll learn

  • Why you don’t need to run away
  • How “powering through” isn’t always the answer
  • When your lifestyle you’ve grown accustomed to might hold you back
  • Why you can’t do it on your own
  • Why you don’t need to have everything figured out

Ready to chat with cindy?

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Cindy Gonos 00:01
We do have that mentality of, "I can do it on my own." And eventually, folks will come to the conclusion that, "maybe an expert is somebody that I should be talking to." And an expert is not your spouse or your significant other or your parents or a friend. But I think that a lot of times people stall on the process because they really feel like they can do it on their own.

Introduction 00:26
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what it does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change. Keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:50
Back in the early 2000s, I started studying what makes people successful. Early on, it was very clear that some people were successful, they achieved a lot, but gave up everything else to do it. Now, when I was researching this, I didn't want to know about those people who destroyed all of the relationships with their kids or other people that they really cared about to go after some other version of success. Instead, I wanted to know more about those people who prioritized both. And those people who became what I now call "happy high achievers", people who are successful in their career and define success on their own terms, but also in the other areas of life that mattered the most to them. People who had great relationships with their significant other and a career they love or people who are highly wealthy and are happy people to be around. When we started HTYC, it was the goal to help many more people in the world become happy high achievers, not just to get to meaningful work. Since then, we've learned more than a lot. Here's the question I have for you, what do you think stops people from making career changes to much more fulfilling work? What stops people from becoming happy high achievers?

Cindy Gonos 01:59
But I think just taking that first big step and saying, "I don't know" it's okay to not know before you get on a call with me. It's okay to not be sure before you make that appointment. It's okay to feel all those feelings before you do this. But the biggest thing is just to do the thing. That would be my best advice, Scott, is do the thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:19
Do the thing. The answer is counterintuitive. That's Cindy Gonos, our Director of Client Success and the very first person that you meet when you talk to us at HTYC. I asked her to come on today to be able to share what she's learned by having many hundreds of conversations over and over and over again, with people that want to make this type of change. Now, it turns out, it's not the work or the knowledge or even developing the skills that often stops people from becoming happy high achievers, it's the fact that most people never ask for help. And if they do, often asking people that aren't in a position to help them. In this episode, today, Cindy and I will chat about what we believe are the five biggest beliefs that stop you from ever taking the first step and asking for help. Cindy, welcome to the podcast, officially.

Cindy Gonos 03:06
Thank you, Scott, for having me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:08
Where in your career have you seen this pop up? This idea of struggling to ask for help or even not asking for help or being challenged in asking for help and that stopping you from something somewhere that you want. Where have you seen that pop up for yourself?

Cindy Gonos 03:22
Sure. I had a really amazing opportunity, Scott, to open and run a swim school for children. I was very, very excited about the opportunity. And I felt like I was ready to, no pun intended, dive into anything to help make the swim school successful. I learned very quickly that one of my responsibilities as the General Manager of the swim school was to also be a lifeguard, the head lifeguard, if you will. And unbeknownst to my owner, or any of the folks that was helping me with training, I have an absolute phobia of water, terrified of the water, absolutely terrified of the water. And when I went into my lifeguard training, I just kept telling myself, "you're going to be fine, you're going to do this, you're going to be fine." But the fear that I had was absolutely paralyzing. And it was really difficult for me to admit that, it was really difficult for me to admit that I needed to ask for help. So I went through the first day of lifeguard training, just floundering around, struggling a lot, but really trying to put on that brave face. And at the end of that day, I went to our lifeguard instructor. And I just said to her, "This is really, really hard for me, and I'm really, really afraid." And she was able to calm me down. She was able to talk me through it. She was able to tell me all of the reasons why I could do this thing that I was so afraid of, and I did it. I became a lifeguard. I became an awesome lifeguard. And at the end of lifeguard training, when I got my certification, I went to my car after training and I cried so hard because I was so absolutely proud of what I had done, but I was able to go in with confidence because I asked for help with that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:03
That's amazing. And I think that that pops up for so many people. I know I've experienced that. I can't even count the times in my career. I would love to say that every single time on the other end of it, I went and asked for help, that is not the case. A lot of times I just struggled through it. And sometimes I didn't even get where I wanted to go, because I didn't ask for help. And conversely, the other times where I did, it wasn't as big of a deal every single time in so many different ways. It often requires the same degree of courage that you described, or transparency, to be able to say, "Look, I'm really struggling with this. I don't necessarily know where to go from here. But I do know that I need help." So that's what's really interesting to me. And I'm curious, you and I had a conversation prior to the evolution of this episode. And we had identified that there's really five main things that we've seen over and over again, stopping people from asking for help. What is the first one that you've seen?

Cindy Gonos 06:00
Yeah, absolutely. I would say the first thing that folks will say is that they have that feeling that they don't want to just run away, or they don't want to let others down. I think so often, we take career paths, because it is expected of us, right? It's the expectations our parents have, or our partners have, or the responsibility that we have to our families or to our children. And one thing that I heard from a couple of folks that I talked to is that even getting on the call with me took a lot of courage. And that courage was to accept the fact that they weren't running away from something, but that they were actually running towards something that was better and more fulfilling for them. And that takes a lot of courage.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:45
I think that's, on one hand, fascinating that that is what it feels like. It feels like if we are making a change, we are failing at something, we're running away from it, as opposed to the... what very often is, is trying to make an intentional change, and intentional improvement in your life, or your work or your career or whatever else. And I think that that is, I don't want to necessarily, you know, take us down a bunny trail, but it's really interesting that that is what we've created in our society that when you're trying to make that type of change, the first thing that we think of is, "Oh, crap. I'm failing at this." And that causes us to not go and ask for help to make a change. So that's a whole nother episode unto itself. That path that is expected of us, tell me more about that.

Cindy Gonos 07:33
Sure. I think when we start our careers, a lot of times what we do is we look for the logic in what we should do. We look for that path that's going to give us success. We look for the path that's going to make us safe. And I think safety for some folks means stability, as far as finances go. I don't think that we're focusing enough on the safety or fulfillment of ourselves. So it's almost as if we feel as though we're letting other folks down by not having that predetermined societal version of success, right.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:11
Yeah, that whole idea of doing what's expected. I think the really interesting thing about that is studying happy high achievers, or would be happy high achievers, there's always an evolution in there, there's always an evolution where you are initially focused on what other people, you know, whether that be people that are close to you, or societal versions of what we think success is. And there's always this evolution in the switch that happens, it's not usually overnight, it's usually over a period of time where we start focusing more and more on what we personally define as success and what we expect of ourselves. And that's something that takes practice in so many different ways. And I think we underestimate that and just how much practice we can get, once we are doing that with someone else that can help us. So that whole asking for help, literally is stopping that in so many different ways when we're not doing it.

Cindy Gonos 09:06
One thing that I hear a lot of folks say is when I'm on our first time calls, because I'll do all the first time conversations, is a lot of times your folks say, "I know I've been really lucky. I know that I've been really fortunate." And I can feel them hesitating on the but. They almost feel that guilt of saying, "I know I've been really successful but I'm not fulfilled." They tend to trail off on the end of that sentence. Because again, it's that expectation, the... "I know that what I have makes me fortunate compared to others" or "I know that I've been successful." But but but... is the thing that they're... Yes, they're trailing off on. So it's great to be successful. But if you're not fulfilled, if it's not meaningful, then are you really successful in the way that is meaningful for you? So.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:54
I love that. What would you say is the second biggest way or second biggest thing that stops us, second biggest belief that stops us from asking for help?

Cindy Gonos 10:04
Yeah, absolutely. So there's a running joke in my house, we love Arrested Development, it is one of our favorite shows. And we have a daughter who was very picky eater. And we would always tell her "Amber, you know what, it's dinnertime. You just need to keep your head down and power through, just power through." And I feel that a lot of folks take that throughout their careers that they don't want to feel weak. So they justify staying in a situation that they don't necessarily want to be in by saying, "I just need to power through this. I just need to keep going." So that they don't feel that weakness or again, that sort of failure, where maybe they just aren't trying hard enough, maybe they're just not pushing through enough. So I think a lot of folks fall into that mindset of "if I can just power through this tough time, or I can just power through these last 10 years of unhappiness through to the other side." So that's one thing that I hear a lot is folks having that mentality of just put your head down, just keep your head down and power through it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:01
I've definitely heard people say, "Hey, I only have X number of years left till retirement" quote, unquote. And that might be like three years, that might be five years, it might be 10 years. The other day, I heard someone tell me, "I only have 32 years left to retire." I was like, "Oh, no. I'm so sorry." And it's that idea. Somewhere along the line, we've gotten the idea that we just need to power through, and maybe some places that can serve as well. But I found that generally, when it's something that goes on for years, we're not talking about, like, "Hey, I just need to power through this project that's going to last the next two days." But we're talking about, "I just need to power through years at a time." Like we only have so many years on the planet. So you know, regardless of what your beliefs are, like it's a relatively short time, and just powering through isn't necessarily going to serve you and the other people really, really well.

Cindy Gonos 11:56
Absolutely.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:57
What do you think is the third biggest belief?

Cindy Gonos 12:00
Oh, man, yes. This is the one that kills me. It kills me a little bit inside every time I hear folks say it. There is this misconception, I will call it a misconception, that in order to find fulfilling work, that for some reason, folks are going to have to be poor, they do not want to be poor. So if I'm talking to someone about ideal career or roles that they're looking for, I always ask what their salary requirements are, what would they like to see themselves ideally at a salary. And when they start the phrase with, "Well, I guess I would take..." and then they insert a number, that is a really quick indicator to me that they are expecting that they're going to have a lower standard of living or lower income in order to have meaningful work. So I'll ask them, I will question them, "Why did you choose this number?" And I always get the same response, "Well, if I want work that I really love, I know I'm going to have to take a pay cut. I know I'm going to have to sacrifice some of my income." And that is absolutely positively just not the case. So I think that stops a lot of folks from even taking that first step. They have that sense of financial security, and they're so afraid that they're going to jeopardize that, that they just don't make any moves forward.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:15
Yeah, if I feel like I want to keep up the lifestyle I've grown accustomed to, and I feel like making a change is going to force me to give up that lifestyle, then I'm not very likely to move forward in one way or another. And what's so fascinating is that it is so ingrained. You and I, when we had a conversation the other day, I remember talking about this, and we're saying that it is literally every conversation that shows up, every conversation that we're having with someone who we are potentially working with to help make this type of change we're talking about, we always are addressing this in one form or another, I feel almost like sometimes we are releasing people of that belief that if you are doing something meaningful, that it must be done for less money or less compensation, or in fact, on the other end, we don't see that. But we don't see that when people are going through the efforts to do work where they are contributing at a higher level in different ways than what they're accustomed to that is requiring them to accept a lower value, in fact, we see it very much the opposite way. But ultimately, I mean, everybody gets to choose. So if you're going to choose, I'm always going to choose to keep my my salary at the same level and the head after that, because I know that if I am upfront, accepting that I need to do that it's impossible or I can't do that, then I'm making it impossible for myself.

Cindy Gonos 14:36
Yeah, I agree. I think that so many times folks undervalue their strengths. And when we work with folks, that's really where we want them to be is working within their strengths. And I think that once they're able to see the value in their strengths, then they're able to see that they can keep the lifestyle, they can have a better lifestyle than what they've been accustomed to, and they're in that place where the work is meaningful, their bandwidth is longer, they're able to work better and work harder, and it feels really, really good for them. And it's this really magical place that they don't think exists. So it's up to us to break that stigma and let them know, "Hey, sorry, but you're wrong. You actually can do work that you really love and make a really good living that does exist. It is a real thing." So.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:21
It is a real thing. Those, I understand where the belief comes from, it's very pervasive in our society, that accepting a work that is more meaningful is less valuable in one way or another. That doesn't necessarily make it true, that doesn't necessarily make it what's actually happening out there. What do you believe is the fourth most common belief that stopping people?

Cindy Gonos 15:46
The fourth most common belief is that folks really believe that they can just do this on their own. So I have the luxury of working in health and wellness and the health and wellness industry for about 10 years. And you would get into January, right, and you would think, "Oh, man, I'm gonna be so busy, like, everybody's gonna need help with getting healthier and losing weight and doing all these things." And it would be crickets for the first couple weeks of January, because everybody had this mindset of, "I'm going to be able to do this on my own." And then you start to creep into the end of January. And then all of a sudden, you're just getting bombarded with people who have now realized, "Oh, hey, wait, maybe I should probably have somebody who's really, really good at this helped me get going on this." But I think we do you have that mentality of, "I can do it on my own." And eventually, folks will come to the conclusion that maybe an expert is somebody that I should be talking to, and an expert is not your spouse, or your significant other, or your parents or a friend, an actual real life expert who can be your coach and can be your partner through this. But I think that a lot of times people stall on the process, because they really feel like they can do it on their own.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:54
This one's fascinating. We spent, Alyssa and I have spent a lot of time trying to instill this in our kids, because we've realized in the last two years that somehow our kids have adopted this same type of belief, like I can do this on my own. It's like, whoa, whoa, hold on. Maybe that's true. Maybe that's true. But let's evaluate what it's going to take to do this on your own versus working with someone that knows a lot more than you. And you know, Camden, he told me this the other night, an ice hockey. And when I was coaching this team, he's like "I already know how to do it, dad." It's like, yes, you know how to do it. But have you done it? And, you know, having years and years of experience actively doing it looks differently than just knowing theoretically how to do it. And we find the same thing is true for career change. Like part of the reason this company Happen To Your Career is in existence is because I was trying to figure all this stuff out for myself. And it literally took me seven years to go through and learn how to do it. Now, we have really smart listeners. So if you're listening to this, you know, maybe it takes you five years to figure out how to make a career change on your own in a way that's really wonderful for you and really meaningful for you versus changing from job and having to go to the wrong one and then go to the wrong one again, and then maybe the wrong one a third time. But you don't necessarily have to do that. That often is the difference of asking for help, in one way or another.

Cindy Gonos 18:15
Yeah, I love that. You said that, Scott, because it's true. We have really smart listeners. So could they possibly do this work on their own? Absolutely. I think anybody can do anything, but it sure have a hell lot easier when you have a partner, and you have somebody who's really good at it, right? Somebody who has also gone through the paces with other folks who are going through the exact same things that our clients are going through, they've kind of seen it all. So you're benefiting from the expertise of not just the coach, but the coach's experience with other folks who have gone through the exact same thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:49
So right, so right. I'm still learning layers of this. I feel like every day, for myself, for each new thing that I'm learning or taking on. What do you feel like is the fifth and the final belief that stops people?

Cindy Gonos 19:04
Sure. I think the final belief that really stops people from asking for help is they, and I don't know why, I can't tell you why this is, I'm a human too, so I, a lot of times, feel the same way. But folks feel like they need to already have it figured out before they ask for help. So it's kind of that you know, before you go to the dentist, and you're flossing as much as you possibly can, and you're like "I'm gonna brush my teeth the very best that I can" when you know the dentist is going to clean your... Or you're really trying to get your hair looking good before you go to the salon. I feel like when I talk to folks, what I hear so much is "I don't know what I want to be when I grow up" and that's okay. That's why we exist. That's the very best thing that we're good at helping people figure out is what they want to be when they grow up. So I think people feel like they need to already have it figured out and they absolutely do not. They don't even have to have a little bit of it figured out in order to ask for help.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:58
When you pull back and you look at the bigger picture, there's some level of absurdity to it that we think we have... and you and I were talking about this the other day with ducks in a row like, we think we have to have all of our ducks in a row before we go to get our ducks in a row, or go to get help for keeping all our ducks in a row. And it's like, "Hold on, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever." Because if we already had it all figured out, why would we be ever asking for help? And I think to bring us all the way back around what I've seen in studying happy high achievers and would be happy high achievers is that those are people, who, along the way, get more and more practiced at asking for help, where they need it, how they need it, anticipate in and even working through all of the mental challenges and sorting through all of our own personal beliefs along the way. So I'm so glad that you said that, that is definitely something we see over and over again here. What can people do? What advice would you have for them if they're thinking about a career change? They're in that place where it's like, "I just... I'm not sure if I should. I'm not sure what it would take." What advice would you have for them, Cindy?

Cindy Gonos 21:03
The best advice that I can give is to ask for help, whether that's checking out our podcast, whether it's scheduling a call with me, I love to talk with folks about their career change. It is what I do all day, every day. And I want folks to feel comfortable with doing that. If it's not the right time, or if it's not the right fit, I'm always really honest with folks, but I think just taking that first big step and saying, "I don't know" it's okay to not know, before you get on a call with me. It's okay to not be sure before you make that appointment. It's okay to feel all those feelings before you do this. But the biggest thing is just to do the thing, that would be my best advice, Scott, is do the thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:42
Do the thing. You've heard this on past podcast where we've said, "Hey, you know, just email me." And part of the reason that we've done that in the past is just to try and make it easy to be able to ask for help. So I feel like it's appropriate here. So I promise you, I will introduce you to Cindy. You can contact Cindy directly, you can always contact anybody on our team directly. But to make it super easy, just to email scott@happentoyourcareer.com put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And what we'll do is, first of all, I'll introduce you to Cindy directly. And then we'll ask you a little bit about your situation, your personal situation. And then we'll help you figure out the very best way that we can help support you or what type of help you may need, even if it's something that we can't provide. Either way, we'll be really transparent and upfront with you. Because this is what we do. It's what we love to do. So Cindy, thank you so much for coming on. I really appreciate it. And thank you for sharing all the observations that you've seen over the last many hundreds of conversations here. I appreciate it.

Cindy Gonos 22:44
Thank you, Scott. Absolutely. This was fun.

Speaker 3 22:52
Fear is defined in two ways and how this actually helped me even with this podcast today. You know, this interview is there's two types of fear. One is the what if worst case scenarios. And the other is what happens when you're in a place where, you know, it's bigger than you expected. So expansion happens or energy gets better or you actually connect with your true self. That's a different type of fear.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:16
All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until, next week. Adios. I'm out.

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Trusting The Career Change Process: Holding Out For “Amazing”

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Changing careers is hard. Waiting for the right role can be even harder. 

It’s often easier to just settle for a “good enough” role – especially when the process seems to be taking a long time. While a good job isn’t necessarily a bad thing, what if you end up missing the amazing opportunity that could lead to lasting career happiness?

It took Eric a whole year to find the right role. Along the way, he had to learn to ask the hard questions and say “no” to many “good” opportunities.

What you’ll learn

  • How having patience and trusting the process can lead to an amazing career
  • The benefits of learning how to say “no” a lot in the career change process
  • How Eric used networking and persistence to make his career change
  • Not settling even when things get tough – how to keep going

Success Stories

They went from a total comp package of $165K to $359K. Wow! Wow! Wow! I’m over the moon right now and really in shock! They reiterated how I was worth every penny and said “You can find anyone with technical expertise, but someone with your disposition and DNA is hard to come by! We can’t wait for you to join the team and are so glad we could make this work for us.” I can’t thank you all enough for your coaching, encouraging support during these last few months! I’ve landed the role of my dreams along with the comp I wanted and knew that I deserved.

Jessica , Chief Learning Officer, United States/Canada

My favorite part of the career change boot camp was actually having some of those conversations and getting feedback and positive feedback about strengths. And to me that was key, because in that moment, I realized that my network not only is a great for finding the next role, it also is helpful to… they help you remind you who you are and who you will be in your next role, even if the current circumstances are not ideal.

Elizabeth , Digital Marketing Analytics Strategist, United States/Canada

Get the Full Backstory

It turned out to be the best fit possible they had all the tools and all the resources. It helped me to approach the job search in a completely different way. It allowed me to put myself out there in a vulnerable way (even in the interviews) and it allowed me to get exactly what I wanted.

Margaret Fredrickson, Philanthropy Consultant, United States/Canada

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Eric Rosen 00:01
Career change isn't just about a title or about tasks. It's really understanding you and yourself and what you want and what you enjoy, and what you want to be part of. And when you do that, and you find the industries and companies, you can continue to focus and you'll get to a good spot.

Introduction 00:27
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what it does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change. Keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:51
You might not know this about the HTYC podcast. But before I hit the record button with our clients to share their story of how they changed their career, I almost always share the same thing. I tell them, I don't want to misrepresent what career change is. It can be wonderful. Also, sometimes when we get a snapshot in time in the form of a 35 minute long podcast episode, you don't always get the full picture. So I asked our clients to share not just the great parts of their career change, but also what was hardest about it, what were their challenges, and what was different than what they thought.

Eric Rosen 01:28
So my name is Eric, I'm a senior software and content program manager.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:32
Things are great for Eric now with his new role at Tonal, but his career change was far more challenging than what he thought it would be.

Eric Rosen 01:40
The challenge is that when things are bad, you don't expand that further into organizations that don't quite fit that but sound like it could be okay, or maybe that's role, like, you start to creep a little bit outside of it, because things are going tough, and it's hard. But if you can maintain that Uber focus, you'll get to the place that you want to be.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:06
Eric had been working in management consulting for years and loved, well, parts of it. Sales, as it turns out, was not one of those parts. Eventually, he realized that if he was continuing down the same path, sales was going to become a larger part of his life, not a smaller part. And while that's great for some people, it wasn't what Eric wanted. He finally realized that he had to make a change. During this career change process, Eric began to identify what he really wanted in his life and his career. After helping thousands of people with their career changes, we've seen that when you're making this kind of change, it often takes more than three months, sometimes even more than six months. For Eric, it took an entire year to find the right role. Along the way, he had to learn how to ask the hard questions and say 'no' to many good, but not great opportunities.

Eric Rosen 03:00
My background was mostly in management consulting, and I really sort of found my way into that. And after my various degrees, just because I wasn't really sure what I wanted to do, I enjoyed the aspect of being able to work on challenging problems and being able to do them with a variety of clients in a variety of industries. And so the consulting industry allowed me to do that. And I always thought it would be a way to figure out what I wanted to do. Looking back, it turned into just me staying in that, and just doing that until I got to the point where I realized it wasn't sustainable. It wasn't sustainable, because the only way in that industry to grow in terms of level and stature was through sale. And that's just not what I'm natural at from a professional sales. I would say, I am the type of person where I can talk to people about products and things of that nature, then I might sell it. But I can't walk into an office and sell a multimillion dollar ERP project. It just doesn't sound natural from me. And that was really what was holding me back. It was holding me back so overtly. And then at one point, it held me back overtly. And realized that that just wasn't a sustainable long term career growth for me. And so I wanted to find something that allowed me to take what I liked about it, but put me in a position to feel successful, completely successful.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:22
That's fantastic that you recognize that. And I'm curious, what were some of the pieces that you did like about it, that you didn't love about it, that you wanted to bring along with you later on?

Eric Rosen 04:33
Yeah, I think it was a couple different things. One, it was about challenges. It was always about rooted in finding ways to solve challenges whether it was through technology, or there's through process or was it through collective group of people. The other part of it is that it was mostly team based. It wasn't sitting alone and thinking about something and then pontificating on high, it was about working with a group of people either in the company, at the client side or a mixture of both. So fostering those types of relationships to work together and to create something lasting and impactful. Those were kind of the things that I wanted to continue to maintain something where I would have challenges to solve, puzzles to solve, if you will, and relationships to build with people.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:18
When you had that realization that sales was probably the path that you would need to take to stay where you're at, but that didn't really align with what you wanted, was that how you knew it was time to leave that area? Or leave consulting? Or was there something else that occurred along the way that caused you to realize, "hey, it's time to leave."?

Eric Rosen 05:41
I think there were some other things as well, I think there was, you know, moving around to different companies to try to find a place that felt more natural and more at home. Once I realized that I was continually moving, I started to think was it because the companies that I were at, and I wanted to move, or was there something bigger going on here that I needed to reflect on some more. And then also, as I started to do more work in my later parts of my consulting career, the types of work that I was doing, and the types of problems we were asked to solve, and the relationship we had with the client started to change some that it wasn't the same as it was earlier, it seemed to be less valued and more commoditized. And it's not that I didn't want to feel like I was commodity but it started to feel like it was more commoditized. And that was just something to do and check off versus taking in some of that information and expertise and bringing it into the organization. And that didn't leave me feeling very good as well. And so I think those other things were going on, but I realized that if there was a path forward where I could get into leadership, then maybe start to change some of those relationships that have made it work, but then that's when I realized, you know, it's sales that are going to do that. And that's just, I was never going to make it there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:06
When you were recognizing that you had that experience where it was, you called it "felt more commoditized", do you remember any instance in particular where you had that realization? Or led that to that realization? Or what was the first time that you really felt that in the back of mind? Take me there, if you remember any of those moments.

Eric Rosen 07:28
I think for someone projects were either through leadership or through the client themselves, where they were just looking for things to be done. So it was just send me a checklist or just give me a timeline or just put together a list of tasks, and it was less about understanding why they wanted to do that or understanding what the impacts would be or getting some more information. It was more about, just give me those answers and don't worry about anything else. And that's when it became the best things that you could almost Google, you can almost figure out how to do that yourself, you don't need me to tell you what a timeline looks like, or a task looks like for me to help you understand why you're doing it, and what are the consequences of doing it. And are these things that you should be doing? Or are you asking the right questions? Are you thinking about this the right way before you get into the action part of it? And those types of things started to happen when then I was just asked to not think that way and not ask those questions and not do those things, just give what was asked of you. And that doesn't always work well for me. I'm not a person that you just kind of say, "Don't think, just do." Because I'm always thinking, and so it's hard for me to turn that part off.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:39
That's what I've always found fascinating. That situation that you experience right there, where you are doing the things that come much more naturally to you, and quite frankly, as I've gotten to know you a little bit, I think you really enjoy that. When you say problem solving earlier, I think that rolls up for you into one of the ways that you solve problems where you're asking questions, and you're thinking about it, and then using that information to be able to help someone and add value in that particular way. Like I see you doing that actively and I don't think people could pay you enough to really stop doing that. Like you'd have to really suppress it. And I think that that's such a sign, like when you get to that point, and you realize that, to be able to be successful in this environment, this situation, this role, this organization, whatever it is that you're having to suppress a part of yourself, like then there's definitely time to move on. So how long do you think it took you once you started recognizing that there was parts and pieces that you're like, "Yep, that's just not me. You're not gonna be able to ask me to do this.", what took place from there? How long did it take?

Eric Rosen 09:40
Well, it took a long time and looking back, an uncomfortably long time, because I tried to find other ways to solve it besides attacking the problem, right? So for me it was about, well, maybe this other company would do it better. And then no, it didn't. Well, that's twice, well, maybe a third time, maybe there's other companies got to do it better. And then you get into that, where it's easier to find, try to find something analogous to what you're doing, and maybe hope the environment in which you do it, will help solve some of the things for it, as opposed to taking a hard look and realizing that it's not necessarily just the environment, it's the actual types of tasks that you're being asked to doing, which aren't changing that much, depending on the company. And that took a long time for me to realize, because that, I think, is the scariest part of it, right. And you get to a point where I was, I mean, this wasn't just post college, and this was postgraduate degree too, like, you start on this path, and you start to... you wake up one day, and you look around and you're like, you know, it's scary to say that, "maybe I made a wrong turn. Like, maybe I made the wrong..." and I continued, and I doubled down on that path. And I'm way far away from where I should be. That doesn't make it right to ignore that. And it doesn't mean it's wrong to be scared of it. The challenge is to then realize, do you want to do something about it or not? And I think I was lucky enough to have an out a way in which that I could be scared of that. But still find a way to softly make the correction, instead of making a hard turn or an exit.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:15
Tell me about that.

Eric Rosen 11:17
And I was able to do that, and that I found myself also wanting to give back in a way and using that, that you talked about, like really thinking about things and helping solve challenges. I wanted to solve some of the challenges, and this is gonna sound very high in the sky, but I wanted to solve some of the challenges I felt society was facing, and we were going down a path and I wanted to find a way to get back. And I didn't want to just write a check or build a house or pack a lunch. And those things are all critical and vital people need food, and people need shelter, and there's great organizations that do that. But that wasn't what I wanted to do and what I meant. And I found a fellowship, which were looking for people like me who wanted to serve a year in city government and work on strategic challenges that government is facing around racial and social equity by providing innovation and providing thought and providing counsel. So for me, it was a way of saying I can do some of the good things that I liked about consulting and marry it to making an impact, and then find a way to use that time to realize what is it that I wanted to do and be? So it was more of a softer turn than just saying, "I'm done with consulting. What am I going to do?" I was able to morph into this pseudo consulting type role and use that time to just say, "What is it that I want to be now?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:36
I think that is fantastic for so many different reasons. You've heard me talk about designing experiments. And I think that for you, this was such a great opportunity to be able to really conduct an experiment that was completely outside of your, what I would call normal, you know, some of those past organizations, it really sounds like we're changing the names and the faces, but the same type of situation overall, in many, many variables. So I think there's a really fantastic way for you to be able to get outside that environment, shake it up and be able to do so in a way that mattered to you, well, being able to pay attention at the same time. So kudos to you for experimenting in that way. That's a courageous decision in the first place. What caused you to feel like that was the right decision for you at the time?

Eric Rosen 13:27
Well, at that time, I had been let go by the consulting firm that I was with. And I was really trying to figure out what I wanted to do next. And it was very easy looking back, you know, it would have been very easy for me to say, "Okay, what other consulting firms are looking for people? Consulting firms are always looking for people." And so there's a ways to do that, right? I can't go back and say, "Okay, well, you know, XYZ firm you do consulting, this is what I do, is there a way that we can work together or you're looking to grow this party practice?" But something inside me just realized that that wouldn't have been as exciting for me. And it just happened to be a chance encounter that I got a LinkedIn message from this nonprofit that wanted to at least see if I was interested in talking about this opportunity about helping and that had been going through my head anyway. So it just was a good opportunity for me to do things, as I said softer, right. It wasn't completely being unemployed and figuring out what I wanted to do. It was giving help in a structured way that was set for a year, it had set goals, there was a small stipend, so at least I felt like I was, you know, still, quote unquote, employed, but I was going to then use that time as doing two things: as helping society in the way that I wanted to, and then taking a moment for me and saying, "Who am I and what do I want to be?" I didn't pretend to think that government is where I want it to work. I was open to it, but it wasn't a reason to take it. It was more of, it would give me the opportunity to use the skills that I had in a new way and find the time to figure out who I want to be. So that when I then look for what's next for me, I'm doing it from a place of, I'm not just looking for the next consulting job, because that's easy. I'm looking for the next career move for me so that I can have a more structured career longevity, and the career that I'm putting myself on the right path. It was almost like a moment in time where I could say, "I'm stopping on this road. I don't know what road I'm going to be on next. But I know it's going to be another road. And let me look at all the maps that I can find and figure out what road do I want to be on next, and put myself onto that road."

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:38
I vaguely remember the first conversation you and I had, I told you, I love some of the analogies that you're coming up with and, you know, I think this is a great one. Because, honestly, this is the equivalent to instead of just like keeping on driving anywhere, and just like feeling like you're making momentum, but really, you're not, this is the harder thing to do in so many different ways, like pulling over to the side of the road and saying, "Okay, hold on. Let's pull up the map. Where do we actually want to get to here? Okay, what's the best way to get here?" And it's a courageous decision, quite frankly, I don't think that that's always acknowledged versus just keep on the same path. Keep driving. So really nice job. I'm also curious about looking back on that experience, after you went through the fellowship, what do you feel like were some of your biggest takeaways about what you wanted in your next step and beyond?

Eric Rosen 16:27
I think it reinforced that there were aspects of working on strategic initiatives and challenges that are done outside and being a consultant that there are ways to do that, and there are opportunities to do that. And those are the tasks that still got me excited and still had me want to go to work every day and want to do those types of tasks. I still was able to understand more about how I am as a person in terms of building relationships, right? Like, you think you're good at that, and then consulting, you're artificially put in that way, where you're building relationships, because you're working on the same client, and you're doing something together. And I always thought I was very good at that. This allowed me to come into an industry like government and do the same thing, but not from the same starting point. And I was able to reinforce that that is something that I'm very good at. And being with people and working with people and bringing people along on the journey, and pulling insights and thoughts from people are all things that I do get excited about and want to do. So it reinforced a lot of what I thought about myself, but it also gave me the opportunity to spend time, as I mentioned, like really thinking about, "but what does that mean?" you know, what are the other things? What don't I know about myself that I could use this time to find, and then who can help me with that and just spend the time to do that sort of stuff?

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:50
I just had a conversation, before you and I got to talk, I had a conversation with Celena, the podcast is actually going to air on next week after this episode. And part of our conversation was about, when you spend a lot of time in the same area like in your case, in consulting, and you have been surrounded or maybe siloed by that as the appropriate word, it's hard to recognize what's actually valuable outside of that. So I think that your point that you just made about you got to be in a completely different situation, different environment, different industry, we'll call it, and validate that what you knew how to do in one environment was actually so useful, and another one, and some elements of it you really enjoyed and wanted to carry through like that is invaluable in so many different ways. And it's also so hard to see, like almost everyone we talked to, I will tell you, in any capacity, the emails that we get they undervalue how transferable their skill sets are and what might be possible for them in a different situation that they actually want. So that is so cool that you took away that. And I am curious about what you said, too, just a moment ago about how you recognize that there might be so much more for you out there too, and there were some things that you didn't necessarily know. What do you feel like at that point, you still needed to figure out after completing that fellowship?

Eric Rosen 19:11
I think it was figuring out how do I position myself as someone who can do those things? And what do those things equate to in industry? Right. So going back into the private sector, you know, what are the roles? What are the groups of the organization, the departments, the titles that I should be really looking at or investigating more through conversations? Because it's not the same as in consulting, right? So what are the ones that are important to me? Or what are they call the things that I know how to do? What are they called in industry? Currently, things change all the time. So at that moment, you know, what was it called? And what is it actually looking at?

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:52
So let's fast forward for just a second here. You ended up with Tonal which I believe is a pretty amazing organization. I think they're doing a nice job. with not just one thing, but a lot of different things. And that said, how do you tell people about what you do now? What's your position called? And just give me a couple tidbits about what you're doing, what you're spending your time on now at the moment.

Eric Rosen 20:14
Sure. So I'm currently a senior software and content program manager. And so what I do is for large strategic initiatives that the company is looking to investigate prototype build out for the offering, I lead the cross functional work. So thinking about bringing teams together to solve whatever is the problem that we're asked to do. So usually, it's all stuff that isn't released yet. So we're working on new sort of ideas, we're kind of building them out. And my expertise would be ones that involve some sort of content creation for it with software support. So I don't really work on the hardware side, I'm not about building anything on the hardware side, it's all about the associated content and software.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:04
You know, I think it's super fun about that is that we started this conversation by you saying, "Hey, I really learned through all my consulting experiences that I absolutely love the working together in teams, and that type of collaboration, and that type of cross functional collaboration" like that's really fun for you. And then, you know, thinking about how the strategy of how the different things fit together. And now fast forward to the end, you get to do a whole bunch of that in your new role. And that is really wonderful. I think that's reinforcement that you made a wonderful step for yourself. Also, at the same time, you and I had a conversation before we hit the record button here at that it was not always easy along the way, there was a pretty substantial amount of time for you, was it about 12 months in between the fellowship and then where you accepted this opportunity?

Eric Rosen 21:52
Yeah, my fellowship ended and then it took me a full calendar year to accept an opportunity to join totally.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:59
So what was that like? First of all, I asked, you know, "what did you plan on? Or did you plan for it to be that long?" You're like, "No, not at all. My intent was to get a role that was right for me as soon as possible." But in doing so, what was that like for you? What were the hard parts? And what caused you to continue to keep moving forward?

Eric Rosen 22:23
You're right, and I'm glad this is a podcast not a video, you don't get to see my facial expressions when you're talking about how long it was. Yes, it was challenging. I think, there's a few things that I think looking back on is that one, you can only control what you can control. And there are far more things that you can't control than you realize. You can think about there's certain things that you can't control, but there are significantly more, and of the things that you either can control or not, the ones that you can't control are going to give you the most heartache, the most heartburn, the most consternation throughout it. And it's so much easier for me to say now, you know, looking back and reflecting on it than it was during that time, because at that time, every setback was felt catastrophic. It just did. And it's just because of the state you're in when you're going through this process. And I don't minimize in any way, it is very difficult. And I think what kept me going is the fact that through the fellowship, at least, and looking back the time, just consultant but especially through the fellowship, I realize I could do good things, not anything, and I don't mean to toot my horn or anything like this, but I just realized that I am capable of doing good thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:40
To the way, sir. To the way.

Eric Rosen 23:43
So my real realization is that I have to keep going. Because whatever it is that I get to do next, it's going to be doing something good. And I should be in control of where I do that. And it may take a long time, but it's going to be worth it in the end. Because at the end of the day, if I follow the path, and I stay true to what I want to do and who I want to be, then I am going to do good things for a good company and feel good about myself. I'm just not gonna feel good about myself during the process, and that's just the way it is. And I think that, but I think there's things that you can do to help it get better, right? But from time to time, having that big picture book, pulling yourself up from the weeds and realizing that you're going to get somewhere, you just will. It's going to take a various amount of time to either be quick or short or long and you don't know, but you're going to get somewhere and at the end of the day, you're going to be where you want to be and that's a very powerful place to be. So taking time, looking up and saying "Okay, you know, I'm gonna get there. I just don't know when that time is..." gives you a little perspective of just slowing down and it's going to be okay, and then you dive back in. I would didn't even ask this specifically, but some of the things that I would do besides taking that big holistic picture is I would spend time actually actively not looking for my next opportunity. Doing something else, it could be daily, or it could be weekly, but doing something else, whether it's, you know, we talked about this before, like, I play ice hockey, so whether it was playing ice hockey, or whether it was working out, or whether it was just going to get a coffee physically out of the house, going for a walk, a skateboard or something, just doing something else to clear your brain, but making sure that you do that it does do wonders, it does change your mood, it does give you something else to do and focus on. Because if you continue to focus on what is negatively happening, it reinforces, and it puts you in a downward spiral. And I do say that, you know, you don't always control the downward spiral. There's lots of things that help you get there. But you can control when you get out of it by changing your mental state a little bit by just doing something else. And it can be something simple. It doesn't have to be something complex, which is doing something else. And it'll break up the days, it'll break up the weeks, it'll break up the months, and it will make you feel a lot happier in certain moments and celebrate those moments.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:16
That is fantastic. And I appreciate you sharing what worked for you as well. Because it's one thing to go through that and say, "Well, you just need to hang with it. And eventually you're going to get there." But it's another thing for how do you actually do that, and what might work for someone. So I really appreciate you sharing what worked for you. And also when you think back over the last, and now it's been about 15 months or so, but when you think back over that 12 month period, what do you feel like was much more difficult than you would have anticipated?

Eric Rosen 26:47
I think the biggest challenge really was the networking piece. It wasn't really the conversations. I was getting the traction, I was getting the conversations, I think and this goes back to what you can control and what you can't control. You can control what industries you want to pursue, what companies you want to pursue, what people you want to target. What you can't control is their reaction, and their willingness and their ability to meet you where you want to be. And I mean that in a simple way of want to have a conversation, just explore what they do or explore the companies from the industry, you can't control how receptive they are to it. And that's the challenging part. And I had a lot of moments where I would use a lot of the learnings that I got from you and Mo about how best to reach out and how best to structure your reach out and plan your meetings, blah, blah. And I would make headway in terms of getting connections and people that would want to meet. And then all of a sudden, they probably decided they didn't want to do that anymore, and never heard back or never heard from them, or had a meeting and then didn't show up and then never heard back. Right. That's so frustrating. And that puts you went to some of that downward spiral from before, right? And that goes back to you can't control that, because you've done everything right. And it's hard. That was the hardest part is then you... it's not meant to be personal. It's not that someone is saying, "I don't want to talk to you at all." But it feels that way, it feels that because you're the only one that asked, and you're the one that set up meetings. So it feels that that's what they're doing. But you know, people are have different motivations. And people use tools for different things. And so if you find yourself in a way that you're getting people to say "yes" to connecting your LinkedIn and then never hear from them again, or saying responding to one message in a positive way, and then never hearing from them again, it's hard. But it's one of the things that happens and understanding that people's motivations are different. And you can only control asking, and then you can control the environment in which you have the conversation. But there's very little else that you can control about that and finding a way to have comfort in that, the positive was that person did say yes, at one point in time, that's a positive thing, celebrate that and realize that if that gets replicated that next person maybe then will follow through and have the conversation with you. So trying to look back and find the positives, and what happened in a very negative situation is helpful. But that was the most challenging part of the whole thing

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:23
I can definitely see. And I have felt where that challenge can happen. And you said something that is really very interesting there that I think changes the game for people. I think so many people when they think about making a career change as an example, I think people equate that with, I need to make a company change or an environment change or an industry change or something like that. However, I think it's far, far, far more than that, in some ways, it is also behavioral changes along the way and you've referenced some of those. But then the other thing that often people don't think about is how do you actually produce a desirable situation that is a really positive outcome on the other end. And what I heard you say earlier is that you're focused on those people or organizations or industries or companies or whatever that you actually are interested in, or that you do want to spend your time around. And if you're putting your efforts in a teeny, tiny, you know, smaller portion of those places that you actually want to be, eventually, as long as you are continuing to move down that path, and this is what I saw you do really, really well, you continue to find ways to keep moving down the path, looking at that larger purpose of, "Hey, I know that I can do good work someplace. And I know that when I get there, I'm going to be able to contribute in different way." And it almost sounded like you felt obligated to continue on down that path. But focusing on that element, and then focusing on identifying and only going after those places that you actually are legitimately interested in, that's kind of the not so secret sauce to how you end up in a place that you actually want to be. So I just wanted to unpack that for a few seconds here because it's easy to listen to a story like yours, Eric, where you've had a really positive outcome on the other end, and it sometimes gets lost about how that actually got there. And in this case, I know you did a great job continuing to show up and continuing to focus on those places you want to be. So what I'm also curious about is Tonal. What caused you to believe, yeah, this is absolutely an organization that is right for me?

Eric Rosen 31:29
Yeah, specifically about Tonal, I knew coming out of my fellowship that when we talked about, it reinforced the types of tasks and things that I liked to do. But what it also instilled in me is that I also knew that I wanted to make an impact on people's lives and find a way to do that. And there's many ways to make an impact on people's lives. And I wanted to find an organization that I felt in which the work that I did would impact people. And for me, Tonal does that. And I don't mean it in a physical way of just changing people's physiques or changing their, whether they're losing weight or getting stronger muscles or things of that nature, it certainly does that. But what it does for me, is it reimagines and reinvents and reinforces their relationship with health and fitness that is also impacts more parts of their lives. So it was an organization that I knew that I wanted to be part of. And there were other organizations too, that do things similarly, but in other industries. But I knew specifically that I wanted to target companies that would allow me to do the work that I like, and I'm good at, and impact people. And so it was one of those things that I knew that I needed to narrow what that was, and be uber focused on what that was so that I could facilitate the right conversations and do the right research. And one of the things that you said earlier about related to what I'm just saying is that that's incredibly hard to do, I don't mean it was hard for me, it's a hard thing for people to do, it takes a lot of the work that you alluded to, which isn't just career change isn't just about a title or about tasks, it's really understanding you and yourself and what you want and what you are enjoying, and what you want to be part of. And when you do that, and you find the industries and the companies, you can continue to focus, like you said, "and you'll get to a good spot." The challenge is that when things are bad, you don't expand that further into organizations that don't quite fit that but sound like it could be okay. Or maybe that's role like you start to creep a little bit outside of it, because things are going tough, and it's hard. But if you can maintain that uber focus, you'll get to the place that you want to be, but I do recognize and again, don't want to minimize, it's hard to do that when things are not going well.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:59
Yeah, especially I mean, 12 months in when... I don't know how you experienced specifically long periods of time in between where you're focused on something, but the result hasn't come through yet. But I know for me it very much felt like should I consider accepting something else? Like am I really doing the right thing here? Like am I doing the right thing for my family? Like all it causes me to question my intense over and over again. And you know, I'll ask you directly what was that like for you? What were those hard elements that people might not be thinking about from the emotional side?

Eric Rosen 34:35
It does. It certainly makes you question, did you define things the correct way because it feels so narrow? And that's when relying on the work that you did is you have to trust that because you did it from an honest place and it truly reflects who you are and what you want. If you put in the work upfront to do that, it's having faith in that and having faith in yourself. Again, it's not easy, you know, it's not easy to do. But if you put in the work at the beginning to do that, then you're only cheating yourself if you ignore that later on, when it's hard. It's easy to do that it's easy to ignore it. And it's easy to open up and say, "Well, this role sounds sort of, maybe it's, you know, and maybe I'll be able to fix it, maybe I'll be able to fix the roll once I'm there. Or maybe I'll be able to fix the company once I'm there" it's easy to talk yourself into those types of things, especially if they're the ones that you get conversations with, and they're the ones that you start talking to. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's the right thing to do, because you did something earlier for a reason. So I don't really have a magic bullet to say how you break out of it, I think, you know, changing your perspective, from time to time, not in terms of the details, not in terms of whether your answers are correct, but your perspective of take a break for yourself, read a book, you know, go for a walk, go talk to someone you haven't talked to in a long time, just find some other way to change your mindset when you then go back to it, you'll feel a stronger connection to the work that you did earlier, because your minds a little clearer. And you'll realize, "Yes, that is exactly what I was thinking. That is exactly what I'm looking for." And then it'll give you a little bit more of an adrenaline rush to keep going.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:16
Let's go back all the way to when you were at the beginning of thinking about changing and realizing that the past wasn't right, and you were in the midst of deciding, "Hey, should I make this change in one way or another?" And back there, when you were thinking about it, before you transitioned out, before left that opportunity in consulting, you had inklings of it and you ended up changing organizations a few times. But what would you advise people who are back in that situation who are wondering, "Hey, should I change to another organization, keep doing the same thing? Should I make a massive pivot?" And they've got all these questions going through their head. What advice would you give that person who's in that place?

Eric Rosen 36:57
I think that's the time to do a lot of the self reflection work and really break things apart. Break things apart into the tasks and the activities that you like and types of companies that you like, and then personally, what's important to you, right? I think if you can do that introspection and reflection earlier, then I think it's okay to figure out your path forward. Because at that point in time, you might not know enough about the tests that you like, or don't like, you might know a lot about yourself, but you're not sure about the test. So that doesn't say that your path is wrong. That could be an environmental issue, that could be the tasks issue, it could be a person, you don't know, right. So at that point, it'll give you a better roadmap of maybe you can try to your point, another experiment and do the same thing you were doing, but for a different company, and see if it was an environmental issue. But you could be in a different position where you know the tasks are just completely wrong for you, then it's finding the tasks that are right for you, right. So I think a lot of that looking inward, there's never too early a way or time to do it. I think historically, it's always like your first job out of college, you're still learning and figuring things out, right, might be hard for someone to say "That's a too early time to do something like that." But that might be more of a time of understanding more about yourself, and what motivates you and how you're responding well, and how you're not responding well. And just kind of taking inventory of yourself that can help you a little later on. So the more I think you can start taking inventory of things, the better off you'll be when you need to then use those pieces of information.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:34
You did a really nice job, even staying true to yourself at the very, very end, when it got to... you had an offer, you were in the negotiation process, it's feeling like you need to accept the offer and not sure how much give there is and everything else along those lines. And you did a really nice job coming out on the other side with even more than what some of the minimums were that you had to find for yourself not just accepting the, quote unquote, minimums. I will tell you from working with literally thousands of people on that, that it's a hard thing to do much like some of the other pieces that we've talked about here. And since you did such a great job through that process, what did you learn? And what would you share with everyone else about what you learned as you're going into negotiation to be able to stay true to yourself and what you actually want?

Eric Rosen 39:18
I think a couple of things, and thank you for those, I appreciate the kind words. I think a couple of things. The first thing is having support. When having support from people, I had the support from you and from Mo, right, to bounce ideas off to get information that I didn't know, to ask the question of, "Am I crazy here? Or should I ask this? Or is this out of bounds? Or is this how do you think and so...? How do you think this is going to be responded to? Or what about this type of wording, how would you react to that?" So having that support there is important. And then going back to the understanding of you, understanding what is important to you. If a certain title or dollar amount or total package is critical to you then knowing that's what you need to find. I think in my particular case, I had a sense of what I felt my worth was, I don't have any true empirical evidence of my particular worth to the world, but I had a sense of what I think it would be. And so I knew that it would be something that was worth asking for knowing that if it got to a certain point that was a little lower, or whatever it was, like where my line in the stand was, where I would say, "I could love the company, and I can love the opportunity. But this particular package salary bonus, or whatever it is, is not going to make me feel valued and put me in a negative spot." Then unfortunately, that's just not a good position to put myself in setting myself up for failure. So I kind of had an idea of where my lowest buying would be. And just knowing that I would make these decisions if I had to, as long as you have the support, and you know what's important to you, I think that the negotiation part is than just asking questions and not being afraid to. There's no harm in asking and realizes there's also no harm in being told no.

Scott Anthony Barlow 41:17
Most of our episodes on Happen To Your Career often showcase stories of people that have identified and found and take the steps to get to work that they are absolutely enamored with, that matches their strengths, and is really what they want in their lives. And if that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that is awesome, you can actually get on the phone with us and our team. And we can have a conversation to find the very best way that we can help. It's super informal. And we try to understand what your goals are, where you want to go, and what specifically you need our help with. And then we figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like, and sometimes even customize that type of help. And then we make it happen. Really easy way to schedule a conversation with our team is just go to scheduleaconversation.com, that's scheduleaconversation.com and find a time that works best for you, we'll ask you a few questions, as well. And then we'll get you on the phone to figure out how we can get you going to work that you really want to be doing that fits your strengths, that you love, and you're enamored with. Hey, I can't wait to hear from you.

Cindy Gonos 42:41
I learned very quickly that one of my responsibilities as the General Manager of the swim school was to also be a lifeguard, the head lifeguard, if you will. And unbeknownst to my owner, or any of the folks that was helping me with training, I have an absolute phobia of the water. And when I went into my lifeguard training, I just kept telling myself, "You're going to be fine. You're going to do this, you're going to be fine." But the fear that I had was absolutely paralyzing. And it was really difficult for me to admit that, it was really difficult for me to admit that I needed to ask for help.

Scott Anthony Barlow 43:20
All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

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From A Stagnant Role To Finding Growth Through The Career Change Process

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When you’re looking for opportunities to learn and grow in your career, but your role no longer provides that for you, it’s easy to lose your sense of fulfillment.

James Sannan faced this conflict of stagnant growth and tried to correct it by changing roles within his company. After many changes, he hit a dead end and felt stuck. James sought help with his next career change and was able to find the growth he needed to thrive in his career.

What you’ll learn

  • That having a growth mindset can positively impact your career
  • How persistence and networking can help you get into the company you want to work with
  • Why learning to network can teach you a lot about an organization
  • How James knew it was time to leave the company he’d been with for 12 years

Success Stories

I would definitely say that I could not have put all the pieces together. The tools and techniques were important, but maybe more so than that, the mindset and the confidence. So I really, really needed that extra input and confidence boost and reassurance that I had a lot of strength and a lot to offer in the future. And I was feeling so rough because I was in a bad fit, stuck situation. Even though we all also recognized that situation wasn't inherently terrible. I would recommend, if you're starting to have that feeling like, either I'm crazy, or the situation, you know, is not that this bad, then I think that's a cue to reach out and get some, some guidance and a community of people that are struggling with the same things. And then suddenly, you'll feel that you're not crazy, after all, and it's just a tough life, situation and challenge, but you'll be able to get through it with that support, and accountability and confidence boost.

Jenny -, Research Scientist/Assistant Dean, United States/Canada

Get the Full Backstory

My favorite part of the career change boot camp was actually having some of those conversations and getting feedback and positive feedback about strengths. And to me that was key, because in that moment, I realized that my network not only is a great for finding the next role, it also is helpful to… they help you remind you who you are and who you will be in your next role, even if the current circumstances are not ideal.

Elizabeth , Digital Marketing Analytics Strategist, United States/Canada

Get the Full Backstory

I realized early on in that career transition that if I was going to be able to find a job that was rewarding and in an area I liked, even to just pay rent, I would need help because I wasn’t getting the results I needed I know how to get introduced to people and talk to folks. I’ve done this remote job search thing a few times. What made it different for me though is that it’s not just an opportunity to change location but to change position. It could be not just a lateral move from one city to another but it could also be a promotion. I was moving my career and experience to an area where I went from leading projects to potentially leading teams… Sometimes you can stretch yourself and sometimes you need a team to stretch you beyond your best. I think that’s the biggest value from coaching. You have someone in your corner looking out for your best interests. If they are doing their job as good as Lisa did they are pushing you to be the best version of yourself.

Mike Bigelow, Senior Project Manager, United States/Canada

Get the Full Backstory

The role is meeting my expectations… totally owning the marketing function. And luckily the founder/president is always forward-looking – he just presented us a huge strategy doc for the next year. So there will be an opportunity for us to grow beyond our initial audience, which is great. I applied (against conventional wisdom!) and went through a lengthy interview process. I did use the resume/cover letter chapter quite a bit to customize what I used to respond to the ad. I also found that using the Interview chapter was super helpful in formulating “SBO” oriented responses, and I even used some of them in the interview. Having those “case study” type responses was really helpful and I believe cemented my candidacy. BTW – they hired me completely over Skype and phone! I never met anyone from my company (in person) until last week at a conference.

Erica Fourrette, Marketing Director

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James Sannan 00:01
If you can stop looking at things so quantitatively, like, where am I at in a company? How much money do I make? And you start looking at things more qualitatively, like, how much am I learning? How much am I growing? And you start thinking of things that way, you start becoming so much more productive in how you approach things.

Introduction 00:26
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what it does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change. Keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:49
Some people are content with just showing up for work and doing the same thing for year after year, years on it. If you're here, listening to this, to this show, Happen To Your Career, of all places, I'm guessing that's probably not you. I'm guessing instead, you want to keep learning and growing both personally and professionally. But when you're looking for opportunities to learn and grow, and your role no longer is providing that for you, it's really easy to lose your sense of fulfillment.

James Sannan 01:20
Yeah. So, James Sannan. And currently, I'm a senior program manager within the business organization of last mile for Amazon.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:30
Before working for Amazon, James worked in the aerospace field for many years. Like you and many people we work with, he thrived on learning and growing. Well, there were many learning opportunities for him as he transitioned into different roles within his company, which by the way, a lot of people have heard of. He quickly came to a dead end, in his growth. He even described it as feeling stuck. That's where we got to meet James. And that's also where we got to help with his next career change. Here's the thing, I want you to listen for this later on in the episode. He was able to find the growth that he needed, but he had to figure out what really worked for him and what growth meant. Pay attention later on, you'll hear him describe exactly how he found that and how you might be able to find it too. But to see what led to his most recent change, James takes us back to his early days in aerospace.

James Sannan 02:24
I was pretty much an aerospace guy. I started out of school as a mechanical engineer, I wanted to get into aerospace– airplanes seemed cool to me. So basically, I've been with Boeing for about, I want to say we're close to 15 years, and nothing against Boeing. Boeing is a great company. And I think some of the teams I worked with, customer support, I was a deputy fleet chief at one point in time, then they made me a product manager and a program manager, where I did some really cool things with a software teams. I was jumping around within the same company. And every time I jumped it was motivating. It was fun. I was doing something new. But I got to the point where I was saying, "I've done all the best jobs at this company, I want to try something new, and no other team within this company excites me." And quite frankly, even if I did make those jumps, I wouldn't be learning a whole lot, because I kind of understand this business, now I understand airplanes. The thing that excited me the most and part of this was my experience working as a product manager at Boeing, but was, I really liked the software aspects of building a product from the ground up that really helped people and knowing that, I said, "Really, where I should be looking is..." so I had this passion of trying to kind of enhance my skills in product management and kind of looking at different firms outside of aerospace to do that. But that was a huge leap. But I think to answer your question, "when did I know it was time to leave Boeing", it was basically when I stopped learning, I stopped basically being excited about the incremental bit of knowledge I would get changing from position to position to position, even changing from one aerospace to another aerospace. I just didn't find the incremental knowledge gap to be very exciting. I wanted to do something entirely new. That was exciting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:23
You see, here's what I'm super curious about. You had this really wonderful background, what most people outside looking in is like, "Hey, you would be crazy to leave all of this experience you've built up and all of these wonderful, you know, sets of..." and, we have a tendency to do that, I think, as human beings. However, I remember having a conversation with you. You and I got... I don't get to chat with everybody, but you and I got to chat shortly after you found us, right? And I remember one of the things that you said is, you know, "Honestly, this was really, really wonderful" and you were having the time of your life in many different ways for a number of years, but then at some point, it sounded like it was no longer as wonderful. And you were experiencing less growth, if I remember. So I'm wondering if you could dive into a little bit of that, like what caused it to be less wonderful than what it used to be at one point?

James Sannan 05:19
It's interesting. I used to think it was just the fact that I'm just very ambitious. And I have to continue to grow in some way. And every time I would make a growth leap within that company, that started a new position, I'd get a level promotion, it was just awesome. And I was very, very happy. And then I do this new role, and all of a sudden, I'd be learning a lot of new things and that would make me incredibly satisfied. But I got to a point where I wasn't learning, I got to the point where it just felt like I was... stuck is kind of the best word I can describe. I got bored. And I wasn't excited about my role. I didn't want to tell people about my role, even though I think a lot of people would probably say my role was pretty cool at the time. And it was all internal, it was me just not being satisfied with where I was at. And, further reflection after I moved on, I think it came down to the fact that I just wasn't learning anything anymore. I was kind of, at a very mature state in my company, I was more or less educating other people on processes and history. And I just don't see myself going anywhere. And I think that's why I was getting down on myself and I was frustrated.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:41
I think that's such an interesting place to be. First of all, it's not necessarily a fun place to be, let's acknowledge that first, like, when you're there, when you're experiencing that, and you are bored, everybody else thinks your job should be exciting, but it's not feeding you in that way, then that's not a great place to be all the time. That said, I think it's really fascinating because so many people tend to underrate what they need in terms of growth from a... if we're looking at it from a fulfillment standpoint, like,what I heard you say is that, like, at some point, you know, you shifted and you are now teaching other people and no longer getting that rate of growth, which you'd grown accustomed to. But I would also argue that you really need it otherwise, you know, it dropped off the other side, and it was no longer a great situation for you. So on one hand, I think that's fascinating. And then on the other hand, I'm curious, what did you learn about yourself out of that experience?

James Sannan 07:47
You know, I did a lot of self reflection, you know, I recognized I wasn't getting anywhere on my own. I think when I tried to network with my internal network, I was basically told, "You know, there's lots of aerospace companies out there. There's all these startups you could get into, you're an airplane guy, you know, you'd be great in this sort of role." And I knew, personally, I had to do a, make a big giant leap, try something new entirely. Because I think deep down inside, I just knew I had to kind of exponentially grow my growth mindset, I needed to try something entirely different. I didn't want to do something that was pretty much similar to what I was already doing just with a different company. And so I had this goal of mine, right? So I had this goal, and I knew what I wanted, but I didn't necessarily know how to get there. And so when you talk about self reflection, I think I was stuck then I eventually reached out to your team. Because all the networking advice I was receiving was, "Don't make a jump. You're not well equipped to make a jump."

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:55
For all the things that you want to do, yeah, don't do that.

James Sannan 08:57
Yeah. Stick with what you know. You're gonna do great with what you know. And I needed somebody to tell me, "No, you can do this. Right? You can make this jump. This is how to do it." And so I think I had a lot of learning opportunities when I was working through your team to understand, you know, what my network wasn't telling me. This is how you, you know, you kind of make those incremental steps.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:24
Well, here's what I'm curious about, then, you know. If we fast forward to the end, it turns out well, for you, you ended up getting an opportunity that, sounds like when we were chatting just a little bit before we hit the record button here, it sounds like it's hitting on some of those growth pieces that you need, which is amazing. But what I'm curious about is, as you think back to the process of making this change, and what you were struggling with initially versus what actually happened in the end, what would you say were some of the hardest portions of it or hardest parts for you to make the change?

James Sannan 10:05
The biggest challenges I had was trying to, well, twofold. I'm gonna say, one, is having to deal with failure. I'm not good at dealing with failure. And a good example would be, you know, I work with Amazon. But it wasn't the first interview I had with them, I think I had two other interviews previously with them. And I did not make it through those rounds. And so I think a lot of people, when they don't make it through the rounds of a company will say, "The company doesn't want me, I don't want them, you know, we're just not a good match. Let's move on. And let me look somewhere else."

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:44
It's not for me. Peace, I'm out.

James Sannan 10:46
I knew I really want to work for Amazon. And so I didn't have that mindset. But at the same time, I felt incredibly rejected every time I didn't make it through. And so in some ways, I think that was the hardest to basically be rejected, but then to try to internally make yourself better, and then try again. So be rejected, but then just be persevering, and keep trying again, and again, and again, and don't basically give up just because you're being rejected. You use that as an opportunity to make yourself better. So I think that was one challenge I had to overcome. And it definitely impacted me at the heart, just feeling rejected again and again, again. And you know, honestly, it wasn't just the interviews I was being rejected from. Sometimes I'd apply for a role I would think I was really good for, and then I would never be called for an interview, that was rejection in itself. So even though that individual never met me, I still felt rejected. So there's a lot of, I think, rejection.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:43
Layers of rejection, that can happen in the career change process. So here's what I'm curious about, though, you know, as you pointed out, many people would get rejected once or twice or three times, and in one way or another, through those layers of rejection that we've now uncovered, and they wouldn't keep going. So what did you do? What worked for you to allow yourself to keep going through the process? Because let's be honest, that's hard. It's much easier to sit here and say, "Oh yeah, I just need to keep going than it is to actually functionally do it." And I know, you know that, but what did you find worked for you?

James Sannan 12:23
Okay, so I started to say, "What could I do differently next time? What did I do wrong?" And honestly, I think I over analyze it a lot. And sometimes I feel like, "maybe I could do this differently, or I could do this differently." But the first thing that I think I started to do that was on the right path was... network with people within the company. And I started to actually cold call people on LinkedIn, at the company in these groups I thought I was a good fit for. And that was also a little bit of a learning process, because quite frankly, if you don't have any connections with an individual you're trying to connect with via LinkedIn, chances are, they're not going to respond. But I actually did have some successes there, where people did get back to me, and people actually had set up information interviews with me. And if none of those information interviews actually panned out, even though I got recommendations out of them, where the individual was, like, they had my back, and they wanted to refer me, and honestly, they didn't work out into roles, but I think what I learned from that was I became a lot more comfortable trying to network and talking to people about their jobs and being a lot more natural about it. And also in the process, I started learning about the company. And so there's all these abstract things I was getting out of this networking that weren't necessarily leading to a job, but it was definitely better preparing me next time I did interview for the company. And so I look back on it. And you know, I was just at the playground the other day, and my kids were taking their bikes out and learning to bike and I met some of the other dads there, who are also, you know, kids similar age, and they're biking. And turns out, I was talking to a CTO of a startup tech firm, who just got like $250 million raised out of Series B and we were just chatting and I got a chat to him about his job. And we really hit it off. And I'm just thinking about how far I've come to where I used to be, where I was somewhat awkward talking to people about their jobs and learning about their industries to where I am now where I love talking to people about their jobs and their industries and finding about their journeys and it doesn't necessarily lead to, you know, a job, but it leads to knowledge and that knowledge is gonna prepare you so much better when you do want to take those sorts of leaps.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:05
I think that's fascinating. Because what I took out of that is, even though in your case, most of those meetings didn't necessarily lead you anywhere directly, they were still a critical part of learning, not just about the organization, although that sounded like it was beneficial, and not just about reinforcing what you wanted to do or where you wanted to go, but also the act of practicing the skills that you needed to accumulate to make everything else happen. So that's really interesting, because I think most people when they think about a career change of any kind, they're thinking about, like, how do I just take the skills that I have and then move it over? Not, how do I upskill and then practice those skills in order to actually functionally make the change and turn something from, you know, what was potentially not possible into now possible. If you had done zero skill development, you might not have made it– I'm not 100% sure, but it's possible that you might not have accomplished your goal. But that skill development along the way, in addition to all the other pieces that you're doing, all of a sudden makes it possible. So that when you look back on this, first of all that story, you know, standing there at the playground, with your kids, now able to functionally talk to other people about their jobs, like it's no big deal. Yeah, that's amazing. That really does illustrate how far you've come. And at the same time, it also makes me curious for... what did you see in... why did you keep pursuing Amazon? You knew that you wanted to be there. But what did you see in Amazon, that you latched on to that you felt, "Hey, this could really be a right place for me" that caused you to keep going?

James Sannan 17:02
You know, the more I studied the company, the more I realized that they have a very unique culture that has not changed a lot in the last 20 years. And they have, I think, these 14 leadership principles that typically they ask you to clearly understand before you interview, but even after the interviews, those leadership principles are instilled in every meeting, they actually bring them up constantly, they make you take classes on these leadership principles. But in a lot of ways, those leadership principles were absolutely awesome, because I could read about those leadership principles. And I got to the point where I memorized those leadership principles. And I realized, too, this company was. This is at their core, who they were. And I felt, almost to the point where it became like a passion, I was very passionate about their leadership principles. And I said, "This is exact... this resonates so well with me. This is exactly where I want to be." And I could actually look at examples of other companies where I had worked and said, "You know, they don't have this sort of principle. And I've had issues, because they don't have these sorts of principles." And so I think, in that way, it made me much more passionate about the company. And I got to the point where I was trying to say, "Look, I know I'm right for this company. How do I convince them I'm right for this company?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:40
That's a completely different mindset than I think what most people go through. Most of the time, I find that when you are... when the power dynamic is where the company holds the majority of the power, many people think about it as okay, like, "are they going to accept me?" And to be able to switch to the type of mindset that you just talked about, like, "Hey, how do I show them that I'm actually right for this company?" I already know it's true. Like it just needs to be a product of coming out on the other side, where that they now know it as well, because you had, not because you just wanted the job, but because you'd already done all the research, because you had already had many conversations, it was no small amount of reinforcement that led up to that conclusion, I would imagine. So having gone through that, you know, and putting what sounds like a ton of research and time and effort into understanding whether or not this organization is in fact right for you, what would you advise other people to do or think about as they're researching organizations?

James Sannan 19:52
You know, I think the key learning that I had is sometimes you relied too much on resume. You look at, you know, the job records, then the requirements of the job and you look at, you know, "Do you require an MBA? Do you require..." and of course, you think if you meet all those requirements, you're a sure fit. And that's not true, and I can tell you firsthand. Every job I applied to, I met all those requirements. And most of them, I did not actually get interviews for. It's really the person, the personality that really gets you the job. And so when you get interviewed, they're looking at you as a person saying, "How well does this person fit into the team? Do they... Are they passionate about our culture? Do they understand us? Do they..." you know, do the research before they interview. And I think the interview itself is so much more important. And if you do your homework, and if you really show that you're passionate about their mission, their company's mission, I think that's going to take you so much further than, you know, just making sure you have all the right skills. And then how do you get to that point? How do you get to the point where you really stand out in an interview? A lot of prep. Make sure you get people at the company, who can kind of give you mock interviews, for instance. And I had several people who actually gave me mock interviews, and give you feedback on how you come across in your mock interviews. Make sure you're clear and concise, but make sure most importantly, that you understand what that team does, and specifically what they are trying to achieve. And then make sure you kind of answer those questions with that in mind.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:47
I think that's a great example of what actually makes it feel relevant. If we're in a, any kind of setting, not just an interview setting, but even if you and I were meeting over coffee or something like that, and we're talking about the potential of you coming on board to this team, or this company, or whatever, yeah, speaking of coffee, let's both grab a coffee.

James Sannan 22:09
We are meeting over coffee.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:10
We are meeting over coffee. Yes. And, you know, I think that what you're talking about is how do you translate it into what's relevant for them. And when you put it in the context of their problems or challenges, what they're trying to accomplish, what they're trying to achieve, which I heard you say earlier, really, what you're doing functionally is you're now making yourself relevant to their world, which is really any kind of marketing or sales or whatever, at its very, very core. So one really nice job doing that. Because when you and I chatted a year ago, it's been about a year, right? We just figured that out, you and I chatting. And I would say, please correct me if I'm wrong, I would say, you felt a lot less confident about being able to do that sort of thing in that type of environment compared to what I'm hearing, you just roll off the back of your tongue now.

James Sannan 23:13
Yeah. I look back to when I first met with you guys. And by the way, during that time, I think I had interviewed at Amazon twice. And I look back at those first interviews, and I look back at the interview where I actually made it through. I look at where I've come. I was an entirely different person by that time, not literally, but I had learned so much during that time, about the company, about what they were trying to achieve. And that's honestly what got me through. It was that journey between that first interview and that final interview, where I just really spent a lot of time invested and trying to learn about the company because I knew that's what I wanted. And in the end, I think it carried through and the team who was interviewing me saw the same thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:05
What surprised you the most as you went through this career change journey? What was different than how you thought it would be?

James Sannan 24:22
I think the people who helped me out, the people who actually reached out and gave me the mock interviews, how they would take me on as almost like a... they didn't have to take me on. I had this guy from Microsoft who worked at Amazon who I had worked with briefly for maybe, you know, just a few hours, I reached out to him on LinkedIn. And he connected with me and he spent hours doing mock interviews with me. He helped me with salary negotiations, told me I should be more aggressive with my salary negotiations. And I mean, this guy really, really had my back and I just... I think that's what surprised me the most is how much people in your network, even people who haven't really worked with you that much, can really have your back and support you and be on your team. And in some ways, I feel like forever in their debt, like, I feel like how can I ever pay these people for how much they've helped me. But I think just the goodness in people. And I think in the end, too, kind of I had this original perception of this big, monstrous company, Amazon, just projecting everyone who applies to them. And in the end, I realized that, you know, they're just like you and me, they're just trying to do their jobs. They have a lot of people applying and they're just trying to make heads or tails of who's the best fit for the team. And it's definitely not personal. And honestly, if you're that passionate about it, they probably want you to be on the team.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:52
Yeah, absolutely. I think that's such great insight. When you think about the goodness in people, is what I think I heard you call it just a minute ago, that's something that has perpetually surprised me over and over and over and over again, I think that people are... if given the opportunity, so willing to be kind and helpful and good. And that's one of the most fun things for me to see over and over and over again, especially in the work that we do here is just that there's so many wonderful people out there, and they don't always have opportunities and outlets, and in many different ways, I would be willing to bet, I don't know, you might go back and ask this person that helped you out. But I'd be willing to bet he was getting something out of that too. I bet it was good for him at the same time, and not in a transactional way. But I bet he legitimately enjoyed being able to help you and coming from a place of help. I bet it wasn't just like, "Oh, I gotta go meet with this James guy. Help him get through the, you know, the..." I bet it wasn't like that at all, right?

James Sannan 27:07
You know, and I think you're right, Scott. And I'm sure you're like this, I'm also like this– where someone's gonna reach out to me, I'm always gonna respond to them. And then that might change as time goes on, because I'll just get too busy. But I always, I kind of want to help people out. I feel like I've been helped out and so I need to return the favor. And not only that, but it's kind of enjoyable, helping people out to make them happy and be part of that. I'm sure not everyone's like that. But you know, at least I feel that way. So I can relate.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:39
For sure. Okay, so confession time. I spent... someone had messaged me on LinkedIn. And we, at this point, really, really fortunate to have way more messages than I can actually respond to. And we have Kathy, on my team, who helps out be able to try to get back to everybody, however, I spent, like, 25 minutes trying to write this thing out to help this person. And in the scheme of things, I probably should have been spending my time elsewhere, but I love it so much. And it really is... I feel an obligation to try and help those people that are in need in a variety of different ways. And so yes, I probably should have been doing something else technically for the business. But also, you know, that's what it's all about, you mentioned the humanity earlier, like, that's where I think the humanity comes in. Right?

James Sannan 28:38
That's the best part of your job, right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:39
It is. Like, that's kind of the reason we exist in many different ways. So if I'm never ever willing to do that, then, you know, why even do it per se. But you know, all that, to wrap back around to your journey, and I think one of the things that was really, really interesting, and your coach pointed this out, too. I had asked Mo, "What did James do really, really, really well?" And he said that, "you were one of the most persistent people that he worked with." You mentioned the rejection earlier. He mentioned, you know, continually coming back and continually learning from each and every, what you might call a setback. So, you know, if you think way back to one of those times where things weren't working very well, because we've got a lot of people that are listening to this right now that are in the midst of a career change, and probably not everything's working particularly well, but what advice would you give them that might help them or helped you to keep going in that particular moment when it's getting hard and you're getting those rejections or your things aren't working as you anticipated here?

James Sannan 29:58
I would say, "persistence always pays off". I think if that's your goal, don't let anyone get in your way, don't let anybody say you're not good enough. If you know you're good enough, you need to keep after it. And eventually, trust me, I know, I spent a year doing this, being persistent with this company, but it pays off. You'll get there. So I think persistence does pay off. But you can't just make the same mistakes over and over and over again. Look back internally, try to take each setback as a learning opportunity and figure out what you can do differently next time.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:46
Hey, many of the stories that you've heard on the podcast are from listeners that have decided they wanted to take action, and taking the first step of having a conversation with our team to try and figure out how we can help. And if you want to implement what you have heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just open your phone right now and open your email app. And I'm going to give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And then when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team. And you can have a conversation with us, we'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and your situation. So open up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line; scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Speaker 2 31:52
It was more about just give me those answers, and don't worry about anything else. And those types of things started to happen when then I was just asked to not think that way and not ask those questions and not do those things, just get what was asked of you. And that doesn't always work well for me. I'm not a person that you just kind of say, "Don't think, just do" because I'm always thinking. And so it's hard for me to turn that part off.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:22
All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

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What Career Fits You?

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Trust Your Intuition To Positively Impact Your Career And Life

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on this episode

You’ve been ignoring that feeling in your gut for months, even years. Maybe it’s been about your job, or how you’re raising your kids or even the fact that you think you might be settling in your relationships. Whatever it is now it’s time to learn to start paying attention to it.

Why? 

Because science and research tell us that your intuition is great at letting you know when things are off. What it’s not great at is helping you understand why it’s off or leading you to the exact right answer. 

Alissa Penney decided to stop ignoring those feelings, and within 18 months, there was no looking back as she has completely changed her career (and even started her own consulting business).

what you’ll learn

  • How to use listening to your gut as a skill for finding your direction
  • Using intuition is an indicator, but it’s not everything!
  • Why leaning into your intuition can be useful in both your career and career change

Success Stories

If you're ready to make the change, if you're willing to give yourself the time that you deserve to figure out what's right for you. If you're willing to take that time, I think Happen To Your Career, and the Figure Out What Fits course, can be great for a lot of people, if you're feeling stuck, and you don't have to bridge that gap to where you are. I think this is a great, great course to really break everything down and give you what you need.

Nicole Mathessen, Art Director, United States/Canada

One of the most key things we talked about was feeling instead of thinking, I would think all the time, about this and that, I would just take time to feel. That is the key for really understanding where you are supposed to be and what you love.

Kelly , Leadership Recruiter, United States/Canada

I would definitely say that I could not have put all the pieces together. The tools and techniques were important, but maybe more so than that, the mindset and the confidence. So I really, really needed that extra input and confidence boost and reassurance that I had a lot of strength and a lot to offer in the future. And I was feeling so rough because I was in a bad fit, stuck situation. Even though we all also recognized that situation wasn't inherently terrible. I would recommend, if you're starting to have that feeling like, either I'm crazy, or the situation, you know, is not that this bad, then I think that's a cue to reach out and get some, some guidance and a community of people that are struggling with the same things. And then suddenly, you'll feel that you're not crazy, after all, and it's just a tough life, situation and challenge, but you'll be able to get through it with that support, and accountability and confidence boost.

Jenny -, Research Scientist/Assistant Dean, United States/Canada

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Alissa Penney 00:03
Ask questions, search for answers. You don't always take kind of that first to answer that gut instinct. Sometimes your gut isn't exactly right. And you have to dig a little bit deeper to find real quality tangible answers.

Introduction 00:25
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what it does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change. Keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:49
One of the most valuable soft skills that I've built over the last 20 years, doesn't have anything to do with communication or negotiation, although that's been pretty valuable too, but it doesn't have anything to do with any of those pieces. In fact, most people don't think of this as a skill at all. But that's where most people would be wrong. Because practicing this and becoming better at it has allowed me to stop myself from settling so many times in the last 20 years. Now, unfortunately, it's also not very easy. What is it? It's the skill of paying attention to your gut feeling and intuition. Here's how it usually works. Let's say that you've been ignoring that feeling in your gut for months, and even years. Maybe it's about your job, maybe it's been about how you're raising your kids, or even the fact that you might be settling in your relationships, whatever it is, now is the time to learn to start paying attention to it. Why? Well, because science and research tells us that your intuition is very useful for letting you know when things are off, it's very good at that. So choosing to ignore that feeling is likely to your detriment. Now, of course, there's also limitations to your gut feeling and intuition. It can only take you so far, because it's not great at helping you understand why something doesn't feel right. It's also not useful necessarily for getting you to the exact right answer instead. But it is a great indicator for you to stop, reevaluate and choose a different direction.

Alissa Penney 02:28
I would say maybe not a skill, but definitely it's a level of self awareness that I definitely didn't have before. I think you could just go off of your intuition all the time, if it's really not a level of self awareness that helps propel you forward. I think sometimes it can really hold you back. And for me, I needed to get that level of self awareness where I could look at myself and say, "this isn't right, I have to do something different."

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:52
Alissa Penney decided to stop ignoring those feelings just 18 months ago. Since then, there has been no looking back as she completely changed her career and even started her own consulting business. Here's her story, and where she started out in her career.

Alissa Penney 03:06
So I actually started out in the HR career field as an intern while I was going through grad school, had no idea what I wanted to do for a career, and an internship opportunity came up and I said, "That looks good. Okay." So I went for it and I loved it. I was at a manufacturing facility. And I got to work with a lot of the folks on the manufacturing floor in a way that I didn't realize you could work with individuals in a work environment. My prior work experience really didn't have me in that kind of a role. Knowing that I loved it and getting to learn a lot about how HR works. The company that I worked for, had an opportunity to take that next step up. And so I said, "Okay, I love it, and I want to work there and it's great." And so I actually moved across the country to take that position, worked there as a senior HR generalist and analyst for the hydraulics division of this company in the Americas. So I went from an internship position and just went for it. Big jump for me. And I needed to reassess that position after about a year and had to take a step back and say, "Okay, I think I went too quickly." Reassessed ended up finding a position with a municipality, which was very different from corporate HR in the public sector versus the private sector. I'm sure you know that you have to work with citizens in a way that's very different than you work with employees.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:36
How would you describe some of those differences? I understand this because I've had a lot of experience in being in and around both sides. My mom worked in municipalities. I think I told you one of the first times that we met, but I've also worked a lot on private organizations, but I'm not sure that everybody necessarily understands really what some of those differences are. And what that actually means.

Alissa Penney 04:55
A lot of it is because you were in place or so customer facing, citizen facing, you really have to be very specific and the kinds of folks that you hire, and then the way that you train those people, a big challenge for a municipality is also budget. So not only do we expect you to meet the needs of our citizens, but also we probably can't pay you a lot to do it. So you have to find, right, you have to find really creative ways to engage with your employees. And you really have to be that innovative HR professional that the business needs. And when I took that role, I was actually very lucky to have a mentor for the first city that I worked for, for four years, who also had a manufacturing HR background. And so we were able to really, I guess, kind of create these innovative strategies because manufacturing in municipalities can be really similar because you're doing hard work, you don't get a lot of things, people are probably mad at you, you've got deadlines, and how can we make this happen. So I would say definitely the biggest, those are some of the biggest challenges, but it makes you creative in a way that isn't budget restricted, which is really what I enjoyed. And I got me back into really loving doing HR again, in that particular role.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:12
I think that's one of the things that I appreciated about you when we first chatted is that we're finding ways to be innovative and finding ways to be creative. And I thought that was so cool. And I think that served you well, since too, as you've moved later on, we'll talk about this later, but into your own business. But what caused you to want to change from that situation where you had that mentor, and you were working in that municipality, and for all situations, like there were a lot of good things, right?

Alissa Penney 06:45
Absolutely, I really enjoyed it. But as anyone who's worked in HR probably knows you have a little bit of burnout that happens when you're in a role for a certain period of time. And so we kind of started to feel that at the end of my time with that particular municipality, but then my spouse had a job change. And so we moved cities. So I had to leave that job. And I ended up working for another municipality. And I got to work as an assistant HR director, kind of over that whole department. And just the environment was so different. I started going through, I think some of the same things that a lot of people go through, where you start kind of dreading going into work. And don't feel like you're being utilized in the way that you know, you can be best utilized. You go in, you do the bare minimum, and you just don't feel that same resonance as you did with maybe a previous career or you just aren't doing the things that you used to really enjoy. For me, I really started to realize that I needed to make a drastic change when I had a big health scare. After not very long in that position, maybe about eight, nine months into that position, I actually started to go through periods of not being able to see where my vision would just cut out. And they weren't sure what was going on. And they said,"you've got to make changes, you were incredibly stressed. Your medical information is just not... it's not good, you have to make changes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:15
None of this is good. Also the not seeing part. Yeah. I'm curious though, I've talked to a lot of people that have had your similar periods of time. And I've experienced that for myself too, mine resulted in, you know, almost anxiety. They were anxiety type attacks along with a whole host of other things. But I think that every single person I've talked to, the experience has been slightly different. And what was that like for you? What was going through your head back at that time, if you can recall? And, what were some of the realizations that you had?

Alissa Penney 08:49
I remember vividly. The whole situation, really just realizing I have to change, I have to do something differently. I'm not getting the fulfillment that I need with this position. And also, I'm having these health issues because this position has added so much stress into my daily life and I don't have a good outlet for it. And so I realized that changes needed to happen. And sometimes that means you have to take that position that you're really excited for and walk away, and reassess and do something different. And for me, I remember being very scared that if I didn't do that, I had doctors tell me that if you don't sort this out, you could go blind. And you can be without your sight for forever. So that was a very big motivator for me to take a step back.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:40
Yes, as far as motivation goes, that is one way to do it.

Alissa Penney 09:43
Absolutely. Same with anyone, I think with a heart condition too. You have to make these changes if you want to continue to have a quality of life, a life worth living. So that's why I made my decision, really.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:55
What do you think was your biggest learning through that time period? And I know we're joking a little bit back and forth. But I mean, that's pretty scary. And it's definitely something that is serious, to put it mildly. So I'm really curious, because I know that the one thing I've seen from you is that every time you've had a hard situation in your life, you have experienced some kind of growth through that. So what do you think were your biggest realization, biggest learning?

Alissa Penney 10:23
For me, my biggest realization was that the work that I had been doing didn't have to be the work that I continued to do, that I actually did have a lot of control in a way that I didn't previously think that I had.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:36
Really? That's interesting. In what way?

Alissa Penney 10:38
Well, for me, I could walk away, very lucky to have a supportive spouse who said, "you know, this impacts both of us. So walk away if it's not working, walk away, and we can reassess." And for me, no, I know I've mentioned it to you before but I have a very type A personality where I need to feel a lot of control over situations. And so even being able to walk away really was a relief to know that I could make those choices to reassess and sit down and go, "okay, what can I do to adjust?" You know, I still want to work, enjoy working, I like the work that I do. So how can I make this happen in a way that I get to do what I like to do, what I do best, and really help the people that I have a huge passion for helping municipalities, underserved employees, nonprofits, that kind of thing. And knowing that I had resources that I could find, reached out to actually stumbled across this podcast during that time frame and said "you know what, I don't have to do this by myself. There are people who can help me through this." And that was really helpful to me, and it made me feel a whole lot less stressed. I think that I would have felt otherwise. So yeah, I think it's kind of an odd reaction, but for me, knowing that I had control it did just go a long way to relieve a lot of that pressure that I had put on myself, I don't have to do this by myself.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:07
That's so interesting. I think that's actually fascinating too. And I feel like that's one of the, I don't know if that's really a skill, I was trying to think how I'd even describe that. But so like, in my situation, when I went through that period, I felt like I needed to have some level of control so I went and talked to my boss. And then my boss fired me and then I was like, thrown back into have been, you know, that sort of helpless type feeling and not being in control and everything else and I essentially have like a really short period of time and small, just next to nothing savings, to try and do something about it. And in some ways, I don't think that's cured me of wanting to feel in control, but it's caused me to figure out what I can influence in my life and I think that, that's such a powerful learning to realize like where you have more control or influence in your life and I, that's not really a skill, but it's like, how would you describe that because you've been through that now? So...

Alissa Penney 13:02
I would say maybe not a skill, but definitely it's a level of self awareness that I definitely didn't have before. And being able to look at something and I've gotten this feedback multiple times, ask questions, search for answers. You don't always take kind of that first answer that gut instinct. Sometimes your gut isn't exactly right. And you have to dig a little bit deeper to find real quality tangible answers. You know, because I think if you just go off of your intuition all the time, if it's really not a level of self awareness that helps propel you forward, I think sometimes it can really hold you back. And for me, I needed to get that level of self awareness where I could look at myself and say, this isn't right, I have to do something different. And understanding that sometimes you do have to ask for help. And you have to be okay with asking for help when you need it, and just know that that's okay. Because a lot of times, I think we beat ourselves up for asking for help and feeling like I can't do this on my own. It did really help relieve me of that stress, to be honest.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:11
That's such an important point. And you know, one of the things we've talked about on this podcast before is when you hear somebody say something, even if there's a lot of wisdom in it, you can take that advice, then often you don't realize initially the layers of wisdom underneath that. And I think that's really what I'm hearing from you, I think that's one of those concepts. You were talking about intuition and your gut feeling. And I think the conclusion that I've come to both looking at the studies and research around it, but also just from working with a lot of people in this area and seeing just from an experiential level is that your gut is really good at telling you when things are off, it is not necessarily as good at leading you to the exact right answer. So, it's almost like you should not ever ignore your gut feeling. Because it's giving you an indication on sometimes levels that you may not fully understand about what is off, but it doesn't always necessarily lead you immediately towards the right answer. And that's part of what I think I hear you saying.

Alissa Penney 15:19
Right. You know, for me having that intuition, I think you're exactly right, it does help you kind of put that pause in things where you go, "okay, something is off." But then it's interesting, because I've actually read, I've read a lot with a lot of the pause that we've had in some of the work that I do normally. And there's actually a lot of psychologists talk about the difference between your emotional brain and your logical brain. And so your intuition is your emotional brain, but then you have to say, "okay, logic brain, what do I do with how I feel?" And that's really where kind of they married together. And that for me, is what's been really fascinating and I think that really speaks actually to my love of data and...

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:04
Not surprised.

Alissa Penney 16:05
I don't think anyone is surprised to hear that probably I love numbers of data and analytics because you know something's wrong. How can I find and pinpoint exactly what's wrong? Because then I can prescribe it, I can fix it from there. Those are the things that I think about a lot.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:22
Yeah, me as well. This is not what I thought we were going to talk about at all. And I want to get back to some pieces of your story. But I want to continue to explore this for just a minute. Another layer underneath that I think is really important is you said something along the lines of, hey, that only takes you so far. And one of the weird places where we've seen that show up again and again, I don't know that everyone is aware of this because we do it a lot behind the scenes and we don't talk about it on this podcast a lot, but we train career coaches, we train coaches and that's one of the pieces behind the scenes that we have that's a segment of you know, Happen To Your Career in our business. And one of the crazy things that we see again and again, is we see people that are more naturally coachee type people that come in. And you know, they ask really great questions. And they are in some ways because of their strengths and interests, they're sort of predisposed to be better at being a coach. Right? However, also many of those people, not all, but many of those people are highly intuitive. And we find that, that intuition to your point, only takes them so far. Once you understand, for example, techniques around coaching, and you're aware of how to put them together, you know, for yourself, then all of a sudden, you can be a great coach instead of just a highly intuitive coach. And there's two differences. So that's an example that like, pops into my mind. But here's what I'm curious about for you, what prompted you in the first place to want to do something for yourself? Tell me about where that started to enter the picture, and how you were thinking about that in the early stages?

Alissa Penney 18:04
Absolutely. It wasn't necessarily my intention to do what I do now. But I actually had a really great conversation with my previous boss and the position that I stepped away from. And she said, "you know, you have a lot of these skills. Maybe when you get things settled down, maybe when you start wanting to get back into the HR world, you should consider doing consultation." And at the time, I was not at a place to hear that information.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:34
Whatever.

Alissa Penney 18:36
Right. I would like to leave and never look back. I got a lot of time to sit and think about it. And really what kind of led me to that conclusion is knowing that I could control my workday and my schedule, and I could control clients and work with people who really wanted me there. Because of that, I think that's the biggest barrier for a lot of HR professionals is having to work with people who, you know, don't want to let you in the building, you don't get to go to meetings, you don't get invited to things and you're constantly having to fight that makes you so tired. And so getting to control a little bit more, there's that word again, 'control'.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:16
It just keeps popping out. It's all over the place, right.

Alissa Penney 19:17
It just keeps popping up for me. With having my high levels of stress in my previous roles, I knew that I needed to be able to control, not just the kind of work that I would do, but also a little bit my work environment. And so I'm able to do things and structure things in a way that's really beneficial to me. So that way, I can in turn, make that more beneficial for my clients because they're not getting me at, you know, 50% or 60%. I'm able to bring myself 100% at my best place. And so knowing that by taking a step back and reassessing, I could get to that place to be that person and that professional that I really wanted to be. At the end of the day, it was really just invaluable for me to understand and recognize and then knowing that I didn't have to kind of muddle through all of that by myself, again, just as really a relief for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:09
Tell me about that. When you say not having to muddle through all that by yourself, what do you mean by that?

Alissa Penney 20:14
Well, I had never really considered consulting before. And I never considered that it was such a drastic career change. Yes, it's still HR but it's a very different facet than what I was doing previously. You know, you have to find people who want you to be there. You have to find people who are looking for exactly what you do. And how do I do that? I've never had to look for clients before. I've never set up a business before. Do I start out as a contractor? What's the paperwork involved?

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:43
All the questions.

Alissa Penney 20:44
I had a million and one questions and I think I filled a couple of notebooks full of questions. And as I would get answers, you know, I'd make a lot of annotations and footnotes, but you know, I needed some guidance in that direction. But I also knew that because it was available, it wasn't quite so scary. It didn't have to be this big, life altering change that I did on my own. And I felt just more comfortable and more confident that, okay, I can make this happen because I needed to reduce my levels of stress. It was just very helpful to have someone to kind of guide me through that process, not necessarily hold my hand, but definitely some one who could say, "maybe we should think about this in a different way, or have you considered this instead, or based on what you're saying, probably you should move in this direction, that's going to be really helpful and beneficial" it was written what it needed.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:35
I feel so fortunate that we got to sit front row and have the opportunity to help through that. And you have done a great job in terms of spending your first, going from essentially nothing to your first eight months now you've had a few clients and partnerships. And I'm going to guess, then take a shot in the dark and say that, that was not easy to get to that point. Eight months, just to give people a background, I've personally worked with a few hundred people, helping them move through the starting stages of a business and making it profitable and getting first clients and everything like that. And eight months for some industries is relatively fast. Like that's not a small feat to put it mildly. So here's what my question to you is, what have been some of the most difficult pieces that you didn't anticipate through that process of getting a business in this case, a consulting business up and running?

Alissa Penney 22:39
So that one's a tricky one.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:41
I only ask the tricky ones, you know that, Alissa.

Alissa Penney 22:43
I know. I know it. It wouldn't be fun if it was easy. I think for me, it was, you know, putting myself out there and allowing myself to be okay with people telling me no or not hearing back from people, that was very difficult. You know, I had compiled a list of potential clients and I reached out and I heard back from, I think over about 200 people on that list, some of whom I've worked with before, because it's a very small world here. And I heard back from two people, and they weren't the people that I had known. And so that was very difficult. And, you know, I settled, spent a lot of time with my coach, and I said, "am I doing this wrong?" It's just really questioning myself, you know, am I even going in the right direction? Have I made a horrible mistake? I think was the hardest for me was to realize how much you have to continuously put out there, and just how comfortable you have to be with hearing 'No' or even worse, hearing nothing at all. That was very difficult. And then just realizing that something that's on my schedule isn't necessarily what's on somebody else's schedule and timetable, and maybe now is not the right time to reach out and you need to reassess and rethink. It was very difficult for me to get comfortable with that, but I absolutely feel a lot more comfortable with that now than what I did eight months ago. That's for sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:09
So for other people who have been considering, or maybe are in the beginning stages of doing their own thing, or building a business that they want to, what advice would you give them in order to move through the difficult process of becoming more comfortable with those types of things? Because whether it's not hearing back, or some other type of challenge that you're going to face, it's gonna be difficult in some way. And it's going to require a level of discomfort. What do you think?

Alissa Penney 24:37
I would say, learn how to be comfortable with silence, and learn how to be very patient with yourself with whatever it is you're trying to tackle. It's very cliche to say but, you know, Rome wasn't built in a day. And if you have this dream that you want to move forward with doing, you know, in my case, it was building a business. I don't know of any business that is immediately successful overnight. And as much as I really wanted things to move forward, I'm sure a lot of other people have that one, that desire as well. Sometimes you just have to learn how to be comfortable being where you're at, and recognizing that where I'm at today isn't where I'm going to be in six months. You know, I went from panicking to, I don't have any clients, I've been doing this for a couple of months and, you know, that this isn't working out to, you know, a month after that, real type of panic for me. I had three people reach out to me. And overnight, almost, I had these clients and so it's okay if things take time, and they're going to take time, even though I only have a small number of clients now. I know that this time next year, things are going to look very different. And as long as I stay consistent, and I maintain my patience, it will be okay.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:56
It's so interesting how quickly things can change. That's something that continues to fascinate me to this day. And you're right, a year from now, it's going to be drastically different and then a year from then, it's going to be drastically different. And I think one of the things that I see again and again, is that it's really difficult to look and say, oh yeah, this is going to be okay a year from now and then to go forward knowing not exactly what okay is going to look like and not knowing exactly what result you're going to get. We, as human beings, have a tendency to not want to go after something, whatever it is, you know, career related, you name it, fitness, it doesn't matter, whatever category. But unless we are sure of the result and the reality is there aren't very many guarantees in life. So what has helped you be more okay with that whole phenomenon?

Alissa Penney 26:59
Well, there's two things that I constantly repeat to myself and they're kind of cheesy. One thing is if I wait until I'm ready, I'll always be waiting. You know, I was not ready, I was nowhere near ready, but I did it anyway. And looking back, I don't really understand my mindset at the time thinking, of course you were ready, you're as ready as you're going to be and sometimes you just have to take that leap and go for it. And then the other thing I think I've mentioned this to you before, but being bad at something is the first step to getting good at something. Even if you're going to start something, you're probably going to be bad at it. And you're going to learn a lot, because you're going to go "oh, no. I'm very bad at this thing that I've done. How can I make it better?" And that's how you hear all the time. Learning from your failures, the important thing but no one tells you how to learn from your failure. You really have to be okay with not doing well. Because at the end of the day, even if you don't do well, you can take a look at what happened, and say, "here's how I can improve it and make it better for next time." And that's how you know, you're always going to be in a different place, you know, six months from now, a year from now. And I do think it takes a lot of guts and determination to continuously be comfortable doing that and assessing where you fail, because it's not comfortable. I don't think anyone likes failing and not doing well. I don't know, there's also a little bit of comfort and knowing that it's not just me, other people have done this and I've also done that badly. And that turned out to be very successful. So, why can't I do it badly and then learn and be better?

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:53
I love that. Absolutely love that. One because it's true. Two because I think it's a helpful lens to look at this through versus any of the other lenses that have a tendency to pop into our mind as human beings like, "oh my goodness, I can't do that because (insert your reason here.)" If I'm going to choose a way to look at it, I'm going to choose one that helps me rather than a different way. So I so appreciate you sharing how you have thought about it, too. What else surprised you, as you were going through the process of building a business? What did you experience that, maybe you didn't anticipate that, it was different than how you thought it was going to be in reality.

Alissa Penney 29:45
I would say for me, learning how to adjust the way I feel about my need to control things.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:56
In what way?

Alissa Penney 29:57
Well, you know, I can't control my day to day, I can't control my clients to or if and when clients happen. But there are things that I can control. And so instead of focusing on these things that I used to, I've adjusted and say, okay, I can't control this piece, but I can control how I react to it, I can control myself and I can, I don't really know of a great way to put it. But basically, I'm able to be comfortable with the areas that I can control. And I've learned to be more okay with the things that I can't control even though this felt six months ago, a year ago, like really big things. That really surprised me, because I'm not known, then my spouse could tell you, my friends could tell you, I'm not a very flexible person in some of those ways. And so learning how to be flexible and how I approach situations and how I approach, you know, my business and how I do things, it was a pleasant surprise, for sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:17
So I've started multiple businesses and my personal opinion has been the first year is the hardest part of the journey. So for all intents and purposes, like you've now done, what I believe is the hardest part of the journey, like zero to one client is the hardest part or... and it doesn't mean it's without challenges for what takes place in the future when you're growing or scaling or whatever, you know, if you decide at some point to bring on, you know, employees or team or whatever, it doesn't mean it was without challenges, but you've kind of been through in many ways, the most difficult part in getting started. What advice would you give people that are maybe back at that beginning stage and they're thinking about getting started? And, you know, they're in that place where you were not that long ago, 8, 9 months ago, and what would you want them to know? What advice would you give them?

Alissa Penney 32:13
I would say, it's going to be hard. Don't let the fact that it's hard keep you from doing it and keep you from pushing forward. Because there were a lot of times when I, you know, didn't know what was going to be happening, or I don't know if I can keep doing this. And it did, it got really hard. And I'm still, I'm almost all the way through my first year, a few more months. And I know that it's still going to be hard. There are days that are going to be very difficult. But just because something is hard, doesn't mean that giving up is the answer. And so really having that perseverance, and my spouse calls it "sticktoitiveness".

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:07
I love that. Borrowing that.

Alissa Penney 33:10
Yeah, you can patent it. But yeah, just being able to have that resolved to continue to keep working when things are hard. Because it will be very hard. I'm not gonna lie or sugarcoat it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:33
Why do you feel it has been worth it for you? You know, from, I'm guessing based on our conversation before this, and what your coach has shared with me and everything that even though it's been hard, this... you still feel like that this is the direction for you. So I'm curious, that must mean that you feel like even though it's been incredibly difficult that it's been worth it. So I'm curious, is that accurate? And if so, why has it been worth it for you to go through all these things that are really difficult in order to have this in your life?

Alissa Penney 34:14
Yeah. For me, it really feels worth it because it's allowed me to have the freedom that I really need to where, if you work in an office, you work for somebody else, it's really difficult to if you need to take a break, or if you need to adjust your projects, or if there's things that you don't enjoy doing, you don't really get that choice. And so for me, it's been worth it. Because I do get that choice, you know, I get to take the projects that I really like, that really resonate with me and I get to help other people achieve their company's goals using HR strategies. And for me, you know, it just... it kind of warms my heart a little bit to be able to do that. And that's really where my passion lies. And so getting to constantly pursue the things that I'm passionate about, for me is worth it. You know, and like I said, it does give me a lot of freedom where with my health stuff, you know, if I need to take some time away, you know, to go resolve some things. I can do that and not feel guilty. You previously, I was made to feel very guilty about taking care of myself. And for me, it definitely is worth it to not have that feeling of guilt constantly hanging over me, you know, maybe I do work at seven o'clock, eight o'clock at night because I had stuff going on during the day, but I don't feel bad about that either. But having that flexibility and freedom for me has made it more than worth it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:53
I so appreciate you sharing that and it means a lot for me. One, to just get to have this conversation, you know, eight months later or so. And you've done such an amazing job. And yeah, we've talked about it being difficult and everything else along those lines. However, you know, I really think that you've done a phenomenal job in making this happen for yourself. And I just want to say first of all, congratulations. And second of all, thank you for taking the time and making the time and coming on and sharing your story with all of us.

Alissa Penney 36:28
Absolutely. And now a lot of people are probably in the same place that I was in, that you were in. It's normal, almost, or it's very common. And just because it feels normal, or it feels common doesn't mean that you have to continue going down that same path. And so I'm very thankful for the opportunity that I had to get to work with, you know, a career coach to help really assist me in that thought process and get me to where I am now essentially, because I don't think I would be, even my spouse during this whole process mentioned that, “you wouldn't be where you are now without the guidance that you've received.” So honestly, both of us are thankful for it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:18
Happy spouse too is a bonus. That's not something we have ever, you know, advertised on our website or put into our marketing or anything like that. Maybe we should be.

Alissa Penney 37:31
Happy spouse, happy house.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:33
Happy spouse, happy house. Yes. It's happening now.

Alissa Penney 37:38
Yeah, there you go.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:39
Well, seriously, you've done a phenomenal job and I so appreciate having you here. And I want you to keep me posted with how everything is going, you know, as the next year happens and beyond.

Alissa Penney 37:52
Absolutely. It'll be an interesting year. Certainly, it'll be an interesting next couple of months. Just with everything going on globally, but, you know, all we can do is stay agile. Realize that we can't control that but I can adjust where I'm at and we'll make it happen.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:16
Hey, many of the stories that you've heard on the podcast are from listeners that have decided they wanted to take action, and taking the first step of having a conversation with our team to try and figure out how we can help. And if you want to implement what you have heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just open your phone right now and open your email app. And I'm going to give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And then when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team. And you can have a conversation with us, we'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and your situation. So open up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line; scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Speaker 3 39:24
Stop looking at things so quantitatively, like, where am I at in a company? How much money do I make? And you start looking at things more qualitatively, like, how much am I learning? How much am I growing? And you start thinking of things that way, you start becoming so much more productive in how you approach things.

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:44
All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

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What Career Fits You?

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How Liz Figured Out Her Career Path By Going Way Back (And Getting Uncomfortable)

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on this episode

When it comes to making a big career transition to work you love (and get paid well for), there’s always tiny clues over and over again. Sometimes, long before college – sometimes even childhood.

While Liz McLean experienced some success in her early careers, a bit of self-reflection opened her eyes to what she should be spending her time doing.

She learned to draw from her younger self (including her Judy Bloom home library) and past experience to find a career where she could help people through coaching.

What you’ll learn

  • The importance of beginning with yourself and doing the work
  • How to be ok with discomfort (in the short term)
  • Why it’s important to take the time to find the right next thing (not just the quickest next thing)
  • How Liz’s reflection on her childhood dream helped shape her career path

Success Stories

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Introduction 00:04
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what it does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:28
Okay, if you've listened to more than one episode of HTYC, you've probably heard a few themes pop up, over and over again and again. Themes like, "Hey, I really struggled to be able to recognize what could be potential for me in my next step of my career" or themes, like, "You know what, it was so much more challenging than I thought it would be making a big career transition where on the other side, I get paid well, and I love what I do." You know, you've heard things like that. But one thing we haven't talked about, that also shows up, is the fact that there's always trickles, there's always tiny clues over and over again, long before people get into their first job. Sometimes, long before college, sometimes even childhood. When you go way back, there's evidence that we don't realize until much much later about what we know we should be spending our time doing and that fascinates me.

Liz McLean 01:43
One of the exercises I like to think about is like, "okay, cast your mind back" so, like, maybe from the ages of between 7 and 10, right. What was your play at that point? Because I feel like it's really informative. Because 7, you know, our personalities are fairly formed or, you know, from a developmental standpoint, but, you know, before 10, you know, the hellscape, that is adolescence, right? That's it. And you start to maybe, you know, take cues for what you should be doing outside of yourself versus being as authentic.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:16
That's Liz McLean. She's fantastic. She's actually on team Happen To Your Career. She works as one of our career coaches, to help people all over the world be able to get to a career happiness. But today, she comes on and shares her story. I want you to pay attention, because she does a really phenomenal job describing those clues that, in retrospect, were already there the entire time. And now that she said many years of experience, she can pay attention to them in new and different ways, and what if she ever could before as she continues to create a really wonderful career for herself, but also now, she gets to help other people do the exact same thing.

Liz McLean 02:59
So I think about like, "Okay, what was I doing during that time?" I actually... I did a little video on this one's. I went to make a library out of my house.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:08
Really?

Liz McLean 03:09
Yeah, I did. I wanna have a neighborhood library. And so some people will be like, "Oh, yeah, you should grow up and be a librarian." I was like, "Well, no. You got to dig it the 'why' beneath it." Like I really loved read... I still, you know, to this day, love reading and ideas. I mean, my strengthsfinder's like ideations– my number one. And connecting with people through ideas and content, right. So it wasn't so much about like, "Oh, I want to have access to books or whatever." Now my collection wasn't very diverse.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:44
What was in your collection at that time?

Liz McLean 03:46
I mean, I'm like, oh, Judy Blume, we're all set. But, so I don't know that it would be pleasing across, yeah. But in terms of like, you know, the traditional like, I majored... in college, I was an Econ major, and I always love looking at the 'whys' behind this decisions, right? So it wasn't that I was, you know, when I went into it, I wasn't super into Econ, even though it's really prevalent in my family, right? It's kind of a family mixture, you know, my brother, my dad, my grandpa. I looked at it, and I was like, "Ah, I can't... I really love English, but then I'm not gonna be able to get a job." right? "I love criminal justice. But, you know, again, how am I gonna get job?" I was always, again the Econ, my mind was always keyed in on the market, like, what is going to make me marketable? What is going to open doors versus closed doors? So I chose it for that, I loved what it did for my mind, because it trained me to look at the world differently and decisions and trade offs in the face of scarcity and how people behave and make decisions given that, you know, we have finite resources, right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:54
Yeah, absolutely.

Liz McLean 04:55
Yeah. But then, what it also did was, again, it kind of... it helps reinforced this idea of like, "Oh, I gotta look at the market, like, what does the market want? What does the market need?" And so when I went into my early career and some of my decisions, I didn't balance it out enough with who I was, right. But I was, you know, young and dumb, and just, you know, getting into it, didn't know. So I started my job, I took a job, and I don't know... we've talked about this, I found a job posting, and they had posted the salary, they posted the compensation, I was like, "I have no idea what these people do. But I'm gonna go for this." Which is terrible to admit, right. And I literally had to... it was a sales job for a really highly technical company, like I had to study for the interview, to understood what they did, and got the job, was really fortunate. I didn't know whether or not I wanted to go into sales, but I think I knew enough to say, "Well, I've never done it. So I have to give it a try." I can't... there's sometimes, you know, at that age, there's a negative connotation when it comes to when you think of sales. So I was like, "Alright, I'll go into it" and I was really, really fortunate to work with great people and have great mentors, and just highly professional. So the amazing opportunities, it was, you know, a really large global company, now Oracle owns them. And I was given a lot of responsibility to young age. There was this new hire college program that was, you know, hiring kids in to do jobs that were traditionally, you know, 40 plus year olds, you know, men that have been, you know, and it was a predominantly at that time, a male industry. And it was... the skills that I learned were just incredible. And the opportunities and the training, it was really good. I did well, like, looking at now my success was because I really just love sitting down with people one on one, and learning about their problems and what they wanted to accomplish.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:56
Interesting. But it sounds like there's a but there or a... the other side. Tell me about the other side. Wait for it...

Liz McLean 07:05
The other side, I just think I was a bit restless. And it was funny, because I was going through one of your exercises. And I think it's key in terms of connecting with, I think we're all here to be in service of each other. That's like a big part of my, you know, philosophy, right? What that looks like for each person differs. So I wasn't close enough to the helping part of it, like I wasn't connected enough to it, like I would sell some really elaborate architecture into a university, and it would help them to map a genome or do, you know, brain research or, you know, but I was too far removed, in a way. And I, again, as I went on in my career, you know, fast forward, I started to realize, like, I truly need that one on one deeper work connection and see how I'm helping individuals and how that's playing out on that micro level.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:59
Yeah, it makes perfect sense. Did you recognize or begin to recognize that at that time? Or did it just feel like, "Hey, I know something's missing here and like, clearly, this is, you know, this is not the thing. So we move on to the next." It sounds like it was much later.

Liz McLean 08:15
Yeah, I mean, I had inklings. This is the thing I kind of knew. I would try to talk myself into it. It was like, I knew I really... I knew, but I tried to unknow that I really liked helping people. And I was like, "Oh, I am helping people. Because the technology that I present, helps them to enable this and this and this." And it's like, "Okay, but I'm not connected to it." But I was like, "Oh, we'll just set that over here." I can't solve for that right now. Press on. You know what I mean.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:46
You just put that on the shelf over here. Not the shelf with the Judy Blume books, but the other shelf. And then we'll ignore that for a little while and come back.

Liz McLean 08:56
Yeah, exactly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:57
So now many years later, you and I both know that, that connection to it that you must directly see and connect how you're helping and that makes an incredible difference in terms of quality of life, quality of work, and everything in between. So what else transpired then to cause you to learn that along the way?

Liz McLean 09:15
Yeah, I'm gonna jump around here a couple of other instances. So I have worked as a yoga instructor. Like I have my teacher and I teach, you know, that was something that I did when I was not in my career and I was home with my kids, which I loved. But it came up there. I was like, "Oh, it's me teaching a sequence to a big group of people in front of a studio." But if I were in a workshop, or if I were doing a private, you know, class, it was great because I could just, I wanted to highly tailor it. But if you're teaching to a group of people, where you teach to the middle, you can't go around each, I mean, a little bit, but it wasn't enough for me and I was like, "No, I need that connection. I need to understand, it's like, okay, what is it for you that challenging in your body?" You know, how do you feel when you wake up in the morning? What are you trying to get out of this? What injuries? I mean, of course, I knew like I always asked about injuries. Safety first. But that was another clue to me. It was like, "Oh, yeah, I know this." So I sought out opportunities to really teach one on one and really enjoyed that that was really rewarding to me. So I could give that really highly personalized service.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:29
It also makes me really curious as you're progressing through your career, because you started out an Econ major, which I love, I wasn't an Econ major, but seriously considered it for a while as I was changing majors 19 times along the way, and took quite a few econ classes, which I also loved. That said, it sounded like you feel like in some ways, you had to go into it, and then eventually found the sales type role, realize that still wasn't connecting directly with how you wanted to see and help, didn't know that at the time but you're getting these tidbits, and you're picking that up. So what happened next on your way to where you're at now?

Liz McLean 11:10
Yeah, I won't get into the bits and bytes. I had various roles within technology sales and continued on and then... but I will say, you know, and then I will draw the line in the sand of like, career before kids and career after kids, quite a mark. But I want to say that there was a period where to go with that, like showing up to the market theme. Like I said, yeah, I did well, because of the one on one interactions, I had some instances where I could... to fast forward to the career coach, where I was able to coach people on interviewing and resumes as far as for client projects, right. So I was selling services. And so I had to put contractors in front of them. And so I really enjoyed that work in helping people improve and show up and advocate for themselves more, you know, effectively.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:58
What did you enjoy about that?

Liz McLean 12:00
I enjoyed getting people to really connect with, ironically, because I wasn't always doing it with myself– connecting with the foundations of what made them great. And channeling that energy into great stories and being able to, you know, sell themselves and advocate for themselves in a very natural way. It's just the improvement, right? You know, from good to great. I had a friend of mine say to me one time, you know, "You don't like just taking people from bad to good. You like taking them from good to great." And I was like, "Yeah, I just... I do." And that was where the energy, it's like that that clue, these clues of like, where do you get your energy from? So that aspect of that role, I could see it there. But I wasn't ready to, you know, I knew about career coaching. I knew about career counseling, I knew, you know, but you get these, you know, limiting beliefs that we all have, and I grew up, I guess, in this environment, or this idea that it was like, "Oh, helping professions are nice, but they really... can you really get paid doing it? Can you make enough?" And so I was like, "Oh, helping professions. Like, I can help people. But will I be able to build the life I want to live helping people and purely helping professions?" Right? So that was a limiting belief I later on in life was like, "Gosh, is that even true? Like, let me look at this."

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:25
So that's so interesting. Let's talk about that for just a minute, if you don't mind, because I find that that is a very, very pervasive myth. And I have several running theories on why this is but I'm really curious about your opinion, as you've kind of moved through this reconciling with yourself, what have you found along the way that you maybe thought was true, but panned out on the other side may not be true in the way that you thought it was?

Liz McLean 13:51
Right. Well, I just looked around the market, not me again in the market.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:55
You always go back, we always look back at the market. Yeah.

Liz McLean 14:00
I do. I will get to the turning point in my career where I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna be foundationally looking at myself, like I..." and that's, you know, spoiler alert, that's next. But where I really, you know, did the inner work and said, "Then so, okay, where do I match? Let me take a more balanced approach to this." But in terms of that, you know, I saw people doing work that I thought were really valuable and very beneficial and very helpful, and they're making a limit, like, yes, like, I don't think that's true. I'm suspecting that's not true. So I started to look for examples of it, you know, I think, you know, we have our confirmation biases, right? We, as children, we get these messages, and it's... the children are great observers, but horrible interpreters. So I mean, I took that and I was like, "Okay, I can't just help people because I won't." I won't eat or something ridiculous. I'm sure it was not like my brain turned it and made it something right.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:56
Yeah, I like indoor plumbing. So therefore, I can't go and do.

Liz McLean 15:01
Right, yeah. I mean, it's so ridiculous now, when I... as I say it. So I looked it, I was like, "How is that even true?" And then the other part, this gets to the foundational work, and a shift that I have, as far as finding work is, like, I philosophically think that we really, you know, we have to begin with foundationally, who we are, and our strengths and our unique experiences, and the market needs to us to show up with those, and say, you know, this is big, elusive marke. But the world, I mean, I won't, I'm going to get super woowoo here, here's my yoga coming out. And actually, that's why we're here, like, we're put here, you know, with our unique strengths and experiences, and people need us to show up authentically with all of those things and do that work. And that's how you create the most value. And really, you know, how you get paid or, you know, making enough it's a measure of how much value you're creating. And I could see people that were really creating, you know, a lot of value to others helping, I was like, "Oh, well, I could do that." So, does that answer the question?

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:16
Yeah, it does and it's really interesting, because I think it goes hand in hand with what you said earlier, about finding that in the world, and I can't remember exactly how you put it. However, what I do know to be true, is that even if you know how you add value to the world, and even if you know the ways that you would like to help, if you're not actively pursuing that, like, nobody's going to actively pursue that for you. So if you are assuming, or getting confirmation in a very bias way, confirmation bias, and you're reaffirming your belief over and over again, that, "Hey, I just can't find this in the world" then you're basically reassuring that it's never going to happen, or there's never even a chance of it happening because for those two reasons like that reaffirm belief and then also on the other side, you're not doing it for yourself, you're not actively looking. So the only way to move forward is to assume that there could be the possibility of that, which is what I be that you did for yourself, which is pretty awesome. Because that's hard.

Liz McLean 17:21
Yeah, it is. And I realized, I was like, "Oh, I need to..." and it's, you know, I got all these learnings and other teachings and, you know, again, things along the way that we pick up where it's like, "You know, maybe this is. Oh, I gotta go over here." And you know, it just somehow all adds up to the change, right, that changing behavior. But I looked at that, and I love "Icarus Deception" by Seth Godin, and I think I was listening to that one day, and he's like, "No, I was thinking about like, oh, yeah, I really want to show up and provide value in this way." And, you know, Seth Godin was like, "No one's gonna come discover you." And so I was like, "Oh, I have to go find it. And I have to go, I actually have to show up with this now." Which is a little bit, it was a big shift. And it was, you know, off brand, I guess, you know, and that was really scary. Phillip, and I had a conversation about that, actually.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:18
Yeah. For back context, Phillip, on our team, our Director of Client Success and coach on our team. And you know, what's really interesting about what you're saying too, about showing up in that way, here's... this is a subtlety that I know that you will appreciate, but so many people seem to miss it, is that if you're showing up in a different way, you know what I'm gonna say, if you're showing up in a different way, then if you're in, say, I don't know, a job interview, or building relationship with someone that later then leads to an opportunity, if you're showing up in a different way than what you are or what you want to be, and you get literally hired or you get an opportunity for something that you don't want to be or are not, and that is such a weird thing that I don't think anybody usually looks at it from that way, though, we're usually focused on "Hey, how do I get to the thing? How do I get the job opportunity? Oh, I need to be or act like this." Instead of focusing, "Where do I want to go?" And, does that align with how I'm behaving and showing up in the world, which is uncomfortable, as you said.

Liz McLean 19:27
Right. And it's interesting, because it's like, "Oh, you know..." Well, and they're like, "Oh, but..." you know, I showed up and I said this, "And I get this opportunity over here, but I don't really want it." It's like, well, you essentially showed up and said, "This is what I want" and people believed like, "This is who I am or this is what I want..." and because, I mean, guilty, right? And people believed me. I was like, "Why wouldn't they?" So how I got over that hurdle, Scott, is that I started becoming more tapping into my curiosity and becoming a whole lot more engaged with the subject matter and the content and the work itself. And I really, I mean, I can't stress this enough with clients, right? And we've talked about this curiosity piece before. But it's, you know, I did it to get out of my own way. It was like, "What do I care about? What kinds of problems do I want to solve? What types of, you know..." And so I'll talk with clients and say, okay, you know, when they really are just lost, it's like, "What is it that, you know, has you wanting to jump off that like, bench... like, put me in coach." Like that's a clue. So what are the problems that you want to solve? And where are there people that are solving those problems? Who are the people that are solving those types of problems? Well then, you know, have conversations with them about the work itself, which I won't get on the soapbox, but it seems like... I am, I'm on the soapbox.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:53
It's too late, you're already there.

Liz McLean 20:55
Right? I'll try to make it short. But there just doesn't seem to be enough space and time anymore for people to have conversations wher, you know, you're like, I don't know, like leaning back and kind of pondering the work itself. Particularly networking conversations, and I think it's because, you know, if that's because we're all so busy. I had a conversation with someone recently, was really interested in this program that this company was, you know, offering, I'm taking to the market and I, you know, set up the call with her, we got on the phone and she was like, "Oh, do you need a job? Or do you..." like she was trying to figure it out. I was like, "No, I really just want to learn about this program." And it took a few times. And I was like, "I'm here to learn. I'm curious." And of course, I was grateful for her time. But it took a minute for her to be like, "Oh, like, you just want to talk about the thing." I was like, "Yeah, I want to talk about the thing, because this problem that you're working on interests me. How are you guys working to solve it? What are you running up against?" She's like, "Oh, okay." I kind of broke her brain for that...

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:54
I can do that now that I can... Well, that's really interesting. I mean, we teach people all the time to put things in context, so that people can shovel it into whatever little box for how they're thinking about it, because that's much of how our brains work, not little boxes, but being able to categorize something within the context in which we already know so that I can then understand how to behave in that area. And without going too, you know, too much into the psychology of that, I think that as soon as you could get her into the... here's the box that in the way that I'm thinking about this, then you can start to actually have that type of conversation. So that's super useful. So let me ask you a different question, then. Because so many people that are listening to this right now have been through some of the events in which you have already described where, you know, they started their career in one area that they thought was going to be the thing for one reason or another, again, to realize it wasn't the thing, learned a lot about themselves along the way. And now more recently, are realizing that they really want to dive down into it and do the work to understand how they can show up and how they can add value to the real world in a way that is useful for them and other people. So you know, what advice would you give to those people who are, you know, maybe a couple years back from where we're talking about right now, and are thinking and realizing, "Hey, I'd love to be able to help people in a different way." what advice?

Liz McLean 23:35
Yeah. I mean, the advice I give is really, you know, begin with yourself, right? And do the work and take the... that can be an anxiety inducing moment for people, you know, so maybe take some deep breaths, go to yoga, but... and know that it's okay, and it's a common story. Right. And it's... I think there is something developmentally it's, I don't know, do you know David Brooks, who's a journalist, and he wrote a book called "Second Mountain". And I think there's something developmentally where in beginning stages of our life or first half of our life, it's, he'll say that it's all about... it's the first mountain, right? It's all about acquiring, and it's about achieving and getting accomplishments and that hustle, and I think that's a ladder to energy. So I do think we reach a point in our lives, and it's a natural turning point where we're like, "Oh, okay, is this all there?" You know, and then you shift into deeper work and a whole lot more meaning and wanting to, like you said, show up in a different way and add value. And I think it's, I get concerned or I don't want people to think that, you know, that's a failure. That's a mistake. It seems really natural, first of all, and a gift. You know, I think it's, you know, going and doing that deeper work to say, "Okay, how..." And you don't have to... I think a lot of people have this, I'm sure you would agree, Scott, you know, this misconception that like, "Oh, I've got to overhaul everything."

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:00
Yeah, yes. Oh my goodness, yeah.

Liz McLean 25:04
And that's just not the case. It's just not the case. And so it's, you know, feeling, you know, like, okay, it's... I'm exactly where I meant to be, this is the path, it's not like, you know, everything's blown up. And it's a gift. And it's an invitation to do a lot more deeper work, you know, reflective work, introspective work, and then be able to, was it the Pablo Picasso quote, that it's... "that the meaning of life is to, you know, find your gift. And the purpose is to give it away." Well, it's like, okay, you're at that point. And to give it away, you have to really get a much deeper understanding. And by doing that work, you never lose, it's only a gain by doing that type of work, you're going to show up, you know, way better in your relationships and your work. I mean, every aspect of your life, right? To do that, and to be okay with the discomfort in the short term, and know that you have to, you're not going to have it all figured out, like, you know, just to go step by step and you're not meant to know all of the journey.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:11
Well, here's how I interpreted what you're saying. This thing, this journey that feels like it is abnormal, that where you're going through, you've used the example of, you know, the first mountain where people are going through their... and in this case, they're building their career, they're doing all the things that they want to do checking off goals, all of these things. And then, you know, we get to the top and realize that, "Wow, this isn't where I want to continue to spend my time." And to your point, that is not only actually okay, even though it doesn't feel for so many, like it's okay, it is the journey, that is normal, that is what many, many people experience in different ways, for sure, and it shows up in different ways. But that's what so many of us experience and that is normal, and nobody talks about it as normal, unfortunately. So I appreciate you trying to normalize it.

Liz McLean 27:04
Right. It seems like normal development to me. Based on what I've been through, what I've experienced, and I think that I did used to have that anxiety and get into, you know, the hamster ruminating. And a lot of times, and I'll be clients here, we're at that point where they're like, "Okay, I just... I gotta go to the job boards, I gotta get like, you know..." and it's like, "Okay, let's take a pause, and it's okay, it doesn't have to be tomorrow." And if we get into that anxious energy and drive from that place of fear, you know, it this transition of like, "Okay, this isn't it, but what is it?" It can prolong the process, and you can go out and get a job, you can go get on the job boards and find a job posting and put yourself on a roll, no problem. But maybe just let's take a pause. And maybe this is an opportunity to do things differently.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:53
Yeah, absolutely. It is just going and getting as fast as possible to the next thing, really what you want. And if not, let's figure out what it is that you actually want. And that's very much what I hear you saying, and I resonate so much with that, like, if we're gonna do all this work to get to whatever the next thing is, we'll at least make it the right next thing for you.

Liz McLean 28:16
Yeah. One client just recently was like, "Oh, like, it was amazing" you know, and she was like, "Yeah, that's a good idea." I was like, "You gotta go get a job, anyway. Here's an idea, like, maybe we can see if we can get better in alignment." She's like, "Oh, yeah, let's do that."

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:33
Yeah, absolutely. You know, I'm curious, I feel like so much of my life over the last 20 plus years has been with a certain type of mantra in mind. And I'm curious what you experienced too, but I've really kind of come to the realization maybe, I don't know, 25-ish years ago, maybe longer, where it's like, "Wow, everything in life is hard." Like, every everything, like everything is hard. You know, if it's gonna be hard, I might as well do the thing that I want to do or feel like I want to do in one way or another. I might go after what I really want if it's gonna be hard either way. What is your thoughts?

Liz McLean 29:12
I mean, I guess, I suppose like what is life just like nasty, brutish, and short. Yeah, I guess. Yeah. It's what kind of hard you want to sign up. I agree. And it's like, if I just go sell myself into, you know, a role that isn't fully authentically me, which I can't do anymore, right. And when my younger self, I could. Like I almost think of it as like, action figure business Liz, look here she comes. I leave these parts of me at home, right. And now I'm like, "Oh, I can't do that anymore. I don't compartmentalize the same way." But yeah, that's a different kind of hard. And I don't want to sign up for that hard anymore. And I don't have to. So I'm like, "Oh, I don't have to do that. Oh, I should probably..." I also said, like Scott, I know what you're saying. But I reached a point in my life and my career where it's like, I know what I know, with respect to that, like that I was doing that. And I can't... It's almost like the "I can't do that again." Like, there's certain truths that I have in my life now that I'm like, "I can't unknow that" when I was younger, I could set it aside, but now I'm like, I can't. I can't unknow that. And so I have to find a new way. Like, that was how I got into career coaching. Right? So I was like, "Okay, I have to find a new way because the bridge is washed out. Like I can't... that path doesn't exist anymore."

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:35
Sorry. It's no longer. It's gonna be while before they build a new bridge.

Liz McLean 30:39
Right. So like my little forge a new trail and figure it out. Like, I find that's the hard I want to do now. And I think in the past, I was more okay doing, you know, the compartmentalizing, because it seemed like the safe play, or it seemed like a greater return on my investment. But then, as you know, and listeners know, like going into a job where you're not fully, you don't quite fit, and you're not showing up entirely, authentically is exhausting, just exhausting. And so I was like, "Oh, I'm gonna go to a job that actually sustains me and feeds me" and yeah, win-win, all the things. So...

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:21
I love that. I love that for so many different reasons. And I think what stands out to me most is that doing life, doing work in a way where you are not showing up as yourself is just a... it's a different kind of exhausting and not a good exhausting, I would say. Everyone experiences it differently in the how. But I would say on the whole, the majority of people, once they, you know, once they take that here's a matrix reference, if you've seen the matrix. The blue pill or is it the red pill, I can't remember like, once you take that... I mixed up the pills. Once you take the pill, like either way, it doesn't matter which pill it is, it's like you can't unknow that, as you say.

Liz McLean 32:05
Yes. I'm like, "Oh, it's not steak. What!" Like it's moosh. Cute. Yeah. And that was another thing developmentally where I reached a point in my life where I was like, "Oh, I can't unknow these things." I think that when I was younger, like I said, when I started my career, I had hints along the way. But I was like, "Oh, that's interesting. I'm going to put that over there." I can't put it over there anymore.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:29
Now that you're, I'll say, in the place where you can't unknow so many of these things. Why do you spend your time coaching others? Why do you spend your time helping others work through these types of career challenge, to put it mildly? It'll be at best. Tell me a little bit about that.

Liz McLean 32:45
Okay, so I'm gonna get woowoo, again.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:47
Perfect.

Liz McLean 32:48
Back to my, I think everybody's got their own unique strengths and experiences. And the world needs to show up with those things. Because I think that it just works best when we all show up uniquely to service others, right. So if we're all trying to fit in a certain molds, like there are jobs that aren't getting done, and you know, you're not being satisfied. But the other thing I'd say is, you know, I mean, it's so simple to say "life is short", right? It doesn't have to be this hard. Or it doesn't have to be that type of hard. Different hard. And it's like, I believe we're here to serve purposes that were designed for. Like if we were, I don't know, crude way to put it, but like to say a machine, it's like, okay, well, you need to find your place where you can deliver the most value. And clearly this isn't it, the world needs you to show up and do your work that's unique to you. So that's part of why I do it. And then also, I just like to, I don't know if you read this in my ICP, but this idea of like, "Okay, if I'm going to try to leave the world a better place than I found it or be of service, I think there's so much to people doing meaningful, fulfilling work that is goes far beyond work. And that really impacts their relationships and the way they show up and interact with others." And I think that's a way that I can hopefully create a positive ripple effect from an Econ standpoint, we need people to show up and work in their strengths and that I want happy people or I want fulfilled people or people who have lives that meaning right, and I want that for myself. I want that for my children. I want that for others. So that's why I do this work. And I'd rather... and I get high off of other people's successes, I'm not gonna lie.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:41
We had a conversation coming into this conversation where you had just come off a few of those calls were you... and absolutely, like I will attest to it. Like you were a... your an amazing mood and it was clearly having an impact on you as much as you are getting to have an impact on other people to cause that ripple effect. So I appreciate it. I appreciate you being here. I appreciate you sharing. And thank you very, very much.

Liz McLean 35:09
Yes, thank you, Scott. It was fun.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:11
Hey, many of the stories that you've heard on the podcast are from listeners that have decided they wanted to take action, and taking the first step of having a conversation with our team to try and figure out how we can help. And if you want to implement what you have heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just open your phone right now and open your email app. And I'm going to give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And then when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team. And you can have a conversation with us, we'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and your situation. So open up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line; scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:21
So it's a totally different way of living, I would say, is getting clear on what you actually want, and getting outside all the norms and socially accepted expectations and everything else and saying, "Look, if I were to spend my time in a particular way, here's what I want for myself. Here's the things that I want to actually do. Here's the things that I actually enjoy. Here's the way that I want to be able to add value to the world." And when you do that, you're very often going to come up with a gap. You're going to come up with a gap between where you are and what that looks like. All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

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Your Career Evolution: It’s More Than Just A Job Change

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One thing we’ve learned over many years of helping people make career changes is that it’s about WAY more than just changing jobs.

You have to consider the mindset, and who you are as a person when thinking about making a career change.

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  • The importance of figuring where you want to go before deciding how to get there
  • Fixed mindset vs growth mindset
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  • How Larry managed to pivot from “just brewing” to the financial side of brewing

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I was nervous. But obviously, it worked out extremely well. (Kelly) was unbelievable. I still keep in touch with her. She's phenomenal. And we had such great conversations. I didn't know that I would be getting laid off from this job. And I signed up for Career Change Boot camp a week before I got laid off. Which was just insane timing. And I just started it. I remember I wrote you guys, and I was like, “I just got laid off from this job. I'm so happy that I enrolled in this program.” And it was, it just was the perfect time.

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Larry Chase 00:01
It was a realization that I'm not figuring this out on my own. And that was the challenge. You can't go figure out how to do something if you don't even know what you want to do.

Introduction 00:14
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what it does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:38
Raise your hand if you've ever wanted to leave a job. Okay, I know my hand is way up. Pretty sure I heard all of yours go up, too. We've all been there, right? One thing that I've learned over many years of helping people make career changes, is that it's about way more than just changing jobs.

Larry Chase 00:59
There were things that I saw that I could do and help out. And I was really put in my place every time that I would reach out and try to do more, and they say, "Well, you're just production." It tore up my soul, because I saw so many other things that I could go in and do. And so it was time to leave that company. And so I left and the question was, well, what's next?

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:21
That's Larry Chase. After discovering the love for beer, he ended up working in breweries for 20 years. He got to know every single aspect of beer, becoming an expert in all things, beer and breweries. He loved it for many years. However, more recently, he realized he wanted something different, something more, not just a job change, though, but an entire career change. Now I want you to listen in for how he was able to figure out the very next step in his career evolution. But first, I want you to listen to where Larry started out. Here's Larry sharing what led him to the beer industry in the first place.

Larry Chase 02:00
We'll start with a biology major in college and did not know what I wanted to do with that major. When I left college, I'm not going to seminary, I was going to be a Lutheran minister. After one year of seminary, though, I realized that this is not for me. And the short version of the story is that I found my higher calling. And that higher calling was brewing beer.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:25
Love it.

Larry Chase 02:25
Now, it didn't quite happen that quickly. What did happen, though, is that during college, I didn't drink beer. I didn't care for the flavor. And it's really the beer that college students certainly drank 25, 30 years ago, I just didn't care for it. I got to seminary, I was in a larger metropolitan area, and the craft beer scene was really starting to kick off. So I can still remember the first couple of beers that I had, Pete's Wicked Ale and Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, were two of my introductory beers to beer with flavor. And I said, 'Wow, I like this. Wow, what's going on?' And being a science major, I was curious about the questions of how do you create all of these different flavors, because that's not what I was familiar with.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:13
That's what not you put or you were used to in college.

Larry Chase 03:16
Right. And so this is all starting to happen at seminary. And people always laugh at it. But the best theological discussions took place at the bar on Wednesday night. So I probably partied more in seminary than I ever did in college. So I get to that end of that year of seminary, I'm not going to go back, I had a goal to travel Europe. So I worked for two years. One of those years was literally working 4 jobs, 80 hours a week to save money. And when you work that much, you don't spend so you save fast, and I did. I traveled Europe, and people would ask me, "What are you most looking forward to when you go to Europe?" And it was "I want to experience drinking beer in the British pubs." And it was... It was fantastic. Drank beer in Germany, learned about it there, ended up, didn't realize Oktoberfest was going on when I got to Munich, and boom. So I've been to Oktoberfest in Munich. fantastic experience. I get back to the States. I ended up traveling for three or four months around the United States. And as I go, I'd stop in at these little breweries and brew pubs everywhere I went. And it was on one of those places, I picked up this beer paper that was in one of these brew pubs, and I saw this ad for the American Brewers Guild of brew master. And all of a sudden it was "*ding*. Oh, I could go do that." And so I got done traveling and I was living with my parents at home flat broke, because I just spent all my money traveling. And I remember my dad taking me out for lunch, looking at across the table from me and saying, "Larry, what are you going to do now?" And I looked right back across the table at him and I said, "Dad, I'm going to brew beer." And you know, this fits at mid 20 years old. I didn't know how I was going to make that happen. I didn't know what the steps were, which is a lot of what you go through in this career change, right? And for some reason, though, it was much easier at mid 20s. I had nothing to lose. I didn't have a job, I didn't have any money. I just got to go figure it out. And I did. I started... this very little internet at the time, I think America Online was not the only thing going on in about 96, 97.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:30
Good old AOL.

Larry Chase 05:32
Yeah. So you really couldn't go and research places and what's out there. And so I just started stopping in the breweries in the places that I knew. And it was one of those times I was back in Sioux Falls, South Dakota, which is where I went to college, a friend called me and said," Hey, we're moving out of this house, you got to come get your stuff." And so I did. I popped into the brewery, talked with the brew master, I was doing informational interviews, that's really what I was doing, just asking lots of questions. And it was... by the time we got done with that conversation, he said, "Well, would you be interested in a job?" Whoa, wow, heck yeah. And I didn't even walk in expecting to get a job. I was there asking questions. So shorten that story up, that was my first brewing job. I worked part time, learning on the job as a brewer, the other part time I bartended at the place and I was so fascinated with it, I read voraciously all the texts and the magazines that they had, and anytime there was downtime I was reading. So anyway, I had that job. And I've been a professional brewer for 20 plus years, and have worked in the Midwest in Oregon for eight and a half, nine years at a brewery. And in that time, I got involved with the Brewers Association. I'm a real big proponent of the association and how they support small and independent brewers. And because of my interest in Financials, which I think we'll get to, when we talk about my career change story, I was on the board of directors for the Brewers Association, and serve that for eight years, and for five of those years, was treasurer of the organization and did a lot of work in bringing the BA along with their investment portfolio, creating investment policy statements and guiding the financial side of the organization.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:27
That is wonderful story and really appreciate you sharing, especially where and how it began. That's so fun to hear some of the origination of what ends up setting the stage for many years. And what I'm also curious about too, and I recognize that you and I have talked before there's not the first conversation that we've had, but I don't know the entire story for what caused you to want to change. You got into the beer industry and brewing industry by chance, almost, in one way or another, faded chance maybe, however, also you decided at some point along the way that once, you know, what was a wonderful situation for you, was no longer as wonderful in the same way. So I'm curious, what had caused you to want to change?

Larry Chase 08:17
Things that caused me to want to change. I wanted to change out of the role that I'd had. I'd been a head brewer for 20 years, and I'd always, for the most part been a head brewer in brew pubs. And as a brew pub brewer, you're a department of one generally. And as a department of one for anybody who has been their own independent business person knows, you get to do it all. And while brewing definitely still excites me, I get stoked about stainless steel equipment. I get stoked about the technical side of beer, the flavor of beer, how you create it, there's a lot that goes into being a brewer in a small brewery that I was just tired of the word. The joke is that you spend 85% of your time cleaning, actually, I shouldn't say joke, because it's true, it's what you do. And it was the nitty gritty daily tasks and the cleaning that I was tired of doing it. And I wasn't interested in going and finding a job in a larger brewery, in the operational side. I certainly could, I've got the chops to do it. But that didn't really appeal to me either. So I was really tired of doing some of that day to day work. And there was a second side of it too, is that the organization that I was in was very unhealthy. And I had come out of now three organizations over my brewing career where it was great to start and I think a lot of that was the honeymoon period, and then things change or organizationally, and it became a place that I didn't want to be, I dreaded going to work. I didn't want to be around some of the people and the leadership, and there was no direction coming from the leadership. And there were things that I saw that I could do and help out, and I was really put in my place every time that I would reach out and try to do more. And they say, "Well, you're..." I hated this. But it was kind of like, "Well, you're just production. That's all we want you to do." And, oh, it tore up my soul, because I saw so many other things that I could go in and do. It was time to leave that company. So I left. And the question was, well, what's next? And I thought I'd figure it out. And six months went by, I worked in a winery during harvest and crush with a friend who is the winemaker. Fabulous experience, because I got to learn about wine and how the similarities and differences between making wine and brewing beer is great. Yet, I always thought I'd open my own brewery. And I'd been thinking that for 15 years, but I could never come around to actually making it happen. And we could dive into all kinds of reasons as to why that is.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:11
Well, I'm curious, you know, looking back now, what do you think were some of the most prominent reasons why you decided not to, either real or what was stopping you, however you want to look at it, what were those?

Larry Chase 11:28
I have a, especially at this time in my life, I have a fear of not succeeding. Right. And I think that's what a lot of us are up against. And because I've been around the brewing industry for 20 plus years, I know how difficult it is to start a brewery and to make it successful. And part of it is that it's really important that you have partners in that that can help, because there's so much that has to happen, and the type of brewery that I wanted to open, you're almost three different business models. So that's not easy. And you need people to help. Well, I didn't have people who I really wanted to be partners with. I didn't even know names of people to consider. So the difficulty of doing it was very daunting. The financial side of doing it is very daunting, because a lot of people will try to bootstrap their breweries. Now, the friend we're staying with right now, he was talking about a brewer here in New Eugene, who is very proud and will boast to everybody that he hasn't paid himself in nine years. And I'm thinking "Dude, that's not something to be proud of. You've been doing a hobby for nine years. And that's not a business." So I know how challenging it is from the work that has to go in, the financial side of it. And you got to go out and raise money. And it's just all these things that I could never bring myself around to just diving in and doing and making happen. So I think that was a big part of it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:03
That's really interesting. So then, I am so curious, as you started about figuring out, "Okay, what is next?" And you started embarking on "Hey, what is this change for what's next going to look like for me?" You know, what did you encounter along the way? And what I'm really interested in are, what are some of the parts that you feel like were surprising to you that you didn't expect?

Larry Chase 13:29
It felt early on that I'd be able to figure this out on my own. That's what I thought was going to happen, I'd take this time. But one year went by, a second year went by, and I'm still sitting here without a job. And my wife and I are making it work, yet, I was, I wouldn't say miserable, but I really was a float, drifting, not really knowing where to go. And I think it was the realization that I'm not figuring this out on my own. I don't have the tools. I don't have the, for some reason, even though back 20 plus years ago, I said, "I want to be a brewer" but I didn't know what I wanted to do. And that was the challenge. How do you go... you can't go figure out how to do something if you don't even know what you want to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:18
Exactly.

Larry Chase 14:19
And so, and again, I was at a point in my life where I think that I felt I had more commitments than I probably did that first time around, and that I couldn't just go and do because of these commitments. I know too, that my mindsets was not where it should have been, and that came out through the work I did with Jennifer and mindset was a huge part of why I was not making any progress forward on my own, for sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:51
In what way?

Larry Chase 14:52
I really latched on to the conversation in our coaching with the difference between a growth and a fixed mindset. And I had read Carol Dweck's book, "Mindsets", probably in January of 2020. And I really latched on to it. But at the time, as I read it, I'm thinking, "Yeah, I've got a growth mindset." Because as you read that book, you know, the fixed mindset, we've all got fixed mindsets, we've all got some growth mindset. It's kind of a continuum of where do you land. You know, and I viewed myself as having on mostly all growth mindset. Yeah, of course, because that's the good thing. That's where you want to be.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:30
Obviously.

Larry Chase 15:31
Of course.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:32
Of course.

Larry Chase 15:32
When in reality, I had a lot of fixed mindset. And that's what was holding me back from...

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:40
What did that show up for you? When you say, "Hey, in reality, I had a fixed mindset in..." sounds like more areas than what you had previously thought. How did you see that show up for you?

Larry Chase 15:53
The way that I've saw it show up best, there's this exercise that Jennifer had me do, and it was called old agreements, new agreements. And she said, "Larry, I want you to sit down, and I want you to write out what are all of the agreements that you have with yourself right now." And that was hard work, for sure. And getting it down on paper, and for sure you think about it and get it down on paper. But once we got it down on paper, and there was probably six or seven different ones that I came up with, and as we started reading through the old agreement, and then comparing that to the new agreement in a particular area, and as I would read through all of the old agreement, the words were all very fixed mindset, terminology.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:43
Interesting.

Larry Chase 16:44
And it took Jennifer to point this out to me. But when I realized it, I'm like, "Oh my gosh." And I start looking through each of these old agreements that I had with myself, and so much of it was fixed mindset. So my wife has a very positive, how can we make this work, figure it out attitude, always has. And one of the things that I am really good at is when an idea comes up, and this is where I overuse one of my strengths. When an idea comes up, I will immediately look to how it won't work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:23
Let's say all the reasons why this will not work or can't work or needs to...

Larry Chase 17:28
Exactly. I forget which strength that falls in. But that's the over use, it's that analytical side of it, it's good to have that, yet, when you take it way too far, you never end up seeing the positive. I'm looking... instead of... use the analytical side to look to how it can work, right. But I would always go to how it can't work, and that frustrated my wife immensely, because every time she would bring up an idea, my immediate response was to start talking about how it won't work. Well, when she is 100%, always, how do we make it work, and I'm always the downer of how it won't work. And we were these two opposites. So that's how it was coming out, you know, this fixed mindset side of me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:11
Can I read you some that Jennifer sent me?

Larry Chase 18:14
Please.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:15
She says, "Larry took his mindset language very seriously. Early in the engagement, we talked about growth mindset and empowering language as a way to call forth, what was his to do in his professional and personal life. He put together a detailed ideal career profile and used this entire process to retrain his thought process and speech patterns to empower himself and others to take action." And so I think this is so cool to have, one, you're sharing the story of here's how this was showing up. This was showing up in a variety of different ways, "My previous agreements were all fixed mindset, didn't realize it to the point of where, you know, I have this continuous interaction with my wife, where she was 'how to make it work.' And I'm like, 'Hey, here's all the reasons why it's not going to.'"And it's no small amount of work and effort and time and energy and all the other things to do something like retraining yourself, you have a totally different lens to look through, and focus on growth mindset, and just other mindsets that are very positive in that area. So what I'm curious about and the question I wanted to ask you is, what do you feel like helped the most? Because I think that's difficult to do over a period of many years, let alone a period of months. So really nice job, and what helped you along the way aside from what we've already talked about?

Larry Chase 19:43
One of the things that I did, I can't remember how it came out, but I'd started practicing meditation some time in this realm as well. And what I did, I took all of the new agreements that I've written for myself, and after, every morning, after my 5 to 10 minute silent meditation, I would take that piece of paper with all those new agreements, and every single day, I would read them out loud to myself. And that repetitiveness to try to put it in my head of this is how I think, this is how I am going to approach the world, the empowering language piece of it as well, I found a great one page or document online that really outlined instead of this word, instead of saying "I need" say, "it's important to" and by doing that daily, and helping to cement it in my head, one, was some of the words, I'm now at the point where... if I recognize I'm about to say, "I need to do this", or "I should do this", which is disempowering language, I can catch myself before it actually comes out of my mouth, and I am able to flip it and say, "it's important for me", or "I want to", or "I will do this". And that has a huge impact on how your mind approaches the world when you change the language that you use. And when you do it out loud. So that was speaking it out loud, and speaking it daily, I've gotten out of that practice right now. In those first two to three, four months, that's really what was keeping me, helping me make that change.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:33
That is pretty awesome. And again, I just want to reinforce, if people listen to this, as you're listening to this right now, it can easily be glossed over that this might not sound like a big deal. But this is something that I would advocate is a much, much harder part of any type of career change that often people don't realize. So many people show up in our world, where they believe it's going to be more about a job and company and work change, but really, what we see over and over again, it's about becoming a different person and becoming the person that you want to be along the way. And I just think that you've done a really, really nice job with that, Larry, and I want to acknowledge that out loud. And also, you know, one of the other things that makes me very curious about too is, what else happened for you? Or what else did you do that you found to be very helpful in getting to the point that you are now?

Larry Chase 22:33
Sure. So I'm transitioning into being a certified coach for the great game of business. So this gets to that financial piece that has been an interest of mine for a long time. In fact, I still have my name tag from my junior year of high school when I was the junior class treasurer. So there's been this financial side that has been an interest to me for a long time. And so great game of business is an operational system that is open book management. And a lot of times people think open book management is, "I just throw up in the financials, let people see him" and walk away. That's really open book reporting, and there's a lot of companies out there who do open book reporting. They let their employees, at least upper management, middle management, see the numbers, yet they never go beyond that. It's... well, here's the numbers. So true, open book management, and specifically through the great game of business, which is the organization that really pioneered the idea 40 years ago, is teaching employees about the financials, so you open up your books, and then you teach them financial literacy, about how the company truly operates from a financial standpoint. And in doing so, you start to teach and give them line of sight into how, what they do on an everyday basis in their role impacts the financials and the success of the company. And one of the big mantras of the system is that "people support what they help create." So it's not about the leaders and the upper management, you know, pushing down from the top and saying, "This is how we're going to do this." It's about giving employees the knowledge and the tools to be able to create it themselves. And one of the questions that we'd like to ask is, well, "Who really out there creates the numbers for a company?" You know, a lot of times the answer is, well, it's the accountant. It's the people in the finance division who are putting out these reports, daily, weekly, monthly, and that's not the case. It's the frontline employees who are truly creating the numbers for the business. So when you get them involved, and you show them and you teach them, they get more excited and they now see how they're successful. And then you give them, what we call, "a stake in the outcome", where they get to participate in the rewards of that success. And whether it's a bonus program, there's many games that are 90 Day pushes to really make a behavior change, and there's rewards if you win. So I am in the process of getting my certification to coach that, to help companies. And then my primary realm that I want to serve is the craft brewing world. Because even though I don't want to be hands on brewer every day, I still absolutely love beer. I love the people in the brewing world. I've got contacts everywhere that I can call upon as I grow this new business of mine, which that's a whole nother realm. I'm now figuring out how do I build my own independent business. And that's not where I anticipated going, when I started the coaching with Jennifer back in November of 2020. So that's the change. That's where I'm headed.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:05
That is fantastic. And here's the part that I love about that incorporates so much of what you are really wonderful at and really just gravitate towards, in so many different ways. And I think anyone listening to this right now can tell that just in how you've talked about your story leading up to this, just in how you are explaining what it is that you are doing or get to do now. And I think what's really cool too, is this isn't just a "hey, here's what I'm going to do now." You already have your first client too. Is that right?

Larry Chase 26:43
Yes, I do. And that's a little bit longer story of how that came about. The connections are absolutely amazing. I got my first client, because the owner of the brewery saw me post on the Brewers Association daily forum, asking about any breweries out there that are currently practicing open book management, and specifically along the lines of the great game of business. And he saw that post, and he said, "This is interesting." He looked into it further and realized that this might be the missing piece that he's been trying to figure out for his company. And turns out, we ended up on, as I'm getting into the coach training, and is this something that I want to do, we end up on the same webinar call via the great game of business, and I knew he was going to be on there, because they'd given me a heads up. Anyway, we made that connection. And it turns out that he learned about it from me, unbeknownst to me at the time. And as we continued the conversation, I'm now gonna have a contract to be support person for them, who has the knowledge to help them implement the system.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:01
That is pretty fantastic. I love how life works when you start to become very clear on what you want, which direction you go and who you want to serve, it isn't magic, but sometimes it seems like it in a variety of different ways.

Larry Chase 28:16
So if you don't mind, I'm going to tell the magic of this. Because when I first left my job in 2018, I was aware of the great game of business, I've been following them. I haven't paid attention to it. There's other breweries and there's some big name breweries New Belgium Brewing out of Fort Collins, Colorado is a rock star in the world of the great game of business. And I'd served on the board of directors with Kim Jordan from there. So I was familiar with it. And when I left my job, I thought, "Oh, well, what would it be to be a great game coach?" And I was on their website, I called, I talked to somebody and this was in 2018. At the time, they said, "Well, we really want our coaches to have been practitioners." And while I had not been a practitioner, I'd never worked for a company that had done it. So put that on the back burner. Well, then fast forward, we get into my coaching work with Jennifer in HTYC. And when we got to the point that realize this is really something I want to pursue, I had made a chart of "here's the roles that it's important for me to go find to get to that point 5 or 6 years from now where I can then become a great game coach." And so to do that, I need to find a company to work for that is practicing the game, playing the game. So I start making the calls, I start finding contacts. And in one of those calls, I knew that a colleague of mine in the brewing world had recently implemented the great game at his brewery a couple years ago, and we served on a committee together so we talked about it. So I called him and I said, "Hey, would you introduce me to your great game coach?" So he did. I had a fantastic conversation with her and one of the questions that, you know, HTYC teaches I think is, you know, when you get into these conversations, that final question that you ask is, "Well, who else do you think I should be talking to? Who would you introduce me to?" So I asked that question. She thought about it. She says, "I'll get back to you." She hands up introducing me to the Vice President of coaching at the great game business. I get on that call, thinking that he's going to be able to share with me names of companies that I could go talk to and explore the possibility. That's not what his intent for that call was.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:36
What was his intent?

Larry Chase 30:37
His intent was to say, "I think we want you to be a great game coach, Larry." And it just blew me away. And part of the reason being is that I have 20 years of experience in the brewing industry, they've had breweries come to them, inquiring about what does it looked like to coach, to have a coach, and they're big believers in that coaches work best in industries that they know. And they didn't have any coaches who know the brewing industry. And so they wanted me because of my knowledge. And then they had a process to, you know, I had three different conversations, you know, to actually get to the point to them saying, "yeah, we'd love to have you on board." And so it all started, I think, as my wife will say, and I've heard some other people say, "You already know everybody who you need to know." And that was exactly the case here. I've known Jeff for 10 plus years, he introduced me to his coach. And before we knew it, I'm a great game coach. And it was all about those connections. So that's that magic that you talked about. And I love that story. And the great thing about it is that Jeff and his Bri are in Springfield, Missouri, which is where the great game of business is headquartered. So Jeff knows a lot of the people in that realm. There's Miller Brewing equipment out of Springfield, I've known one of their... he doesn't work there anymore, but he was their sales guy for the brewing side for 20 years. I've known him for almost as long, I called him to talk about the great game. He's a big proponent and fan of it because they do it. And turns out that he knows a lot of people at the great game. So it's all this small world stuff that these connections start to give you credibility and then excitement. And it's things just start rolling.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:25
Here's what I love most about that story. I love, really two pieces, maybe more, probably a lot more. However, two main pieces really stand out to me. One is that you have this conversation way back when, you had an inkling that this would be a lot of fun for you quite a while ago, and basically was met with a "Yep. No, we just don't do that. Nope, sorry." "Hey, thank you. But no, thank you" essentially. And you're up against a wall there. And instead of just accepting that, you kept going in that direction. Well, at the same time, you were trying to refine what you really wanted, and continuing to pursue that, continuing to figure out how this could be possible ended up leading to getting an exception made for you. And I think that's one of my favorite things about so, not just your story, but so many of the stories that we get to share on this podcast is that, really, once you start to declare what you want, and you're continuing to put action to figure out how it might be possible, then all of a sudden, that's part of what is that secret magic in one way or another that ends up making it possible later on. So I so appreciate you sharing a bit of what looks like an impossibility or looks like magic from the outside, and how it actually functions from the inside. I very much appreciate that. And congratulations again too. I don't know that I told you that.

Larry Chase 33:51
Thank you. The challenge now though it's just beginning. It's only beginning. Right? You said earlier how a lot of people come in thinking that it's simply about a career change a new job, a different role. You know, for me, it was... I went for six months, weekly with Jennifer, and for probably three to four of those months, we didn't even talk about a job, a role where I want to do, it was that mindset piece that we really had to work on first before I could even get to the point of considering what's next. The way I tell that story, it makes it sound like it just, you know, rolled one piece into the other. It was still challenging though because there were the days I had I really want to make that call, or I don't even know who to call and might have spaced out by three weeks because I didn't do it. I was afraid, yet, it's that case of, if you sit down and do it and do the work, it comes faster. We like to procrastinate because we're afraid and, nonetheless, here I am.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:58
I think that's amazing. And I am curious as you said, your journey is now just beginning. But I think the part that really is amazing about is even though it is just beginning, it is now on a different track that clearly you diagnosed years ago was what you, you no longer wanted to be on that same track. And you've gone through something that is very difficult. Most people in the entire world don't do this. They don't identify what they want to be doing, and then actively make it happen in the real world. So again, just kudos to you. But then the other question that I want to ask you is, what advice would you give to those people who were or where you were several years ago, and you know that you no longer want to be doing what you were doing, but aren't quite sure where you want to go or how to make it happen, what advice would you give?

Larry Chase 35:51
There's a few things that come to mind. It's one that my wife likes to say, and it's "leap and the net will appear" really, really difficult to do, I get that, really, really difficult to do. Yet, if your mindset is thinking positively in that direction, it happens. I think another piece of advice is that, don't wait. Because I didn't talk about how it took me way too long to leave that last job, even though it was probably two or three years that I knew I needed to be out of there, and yeah, don't wait. It may seem really, really difficult that you can't and you gotta wait this out, you will feel so much better. And it's not the first time. I've left two jobs under duress. And there was the first time I did it, it was... I should have done it sooner. And this last time, I should have done it sooner. So don't wait.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:50
I want to just close really quickly with something else that Jennifer wrote, your coach Jennifer wrote, one, "Larry did an amazing job of reaching out with a survey that asked about his strengths and leverage the how to ask help formula to enlist a highly educated support team." And she also went on to say, "Larry is one of the kindest, most honest clients that I have ever had the opportunity to work with. A heart for helping others and creating organizational health." I just I wanted you to know that. I'm sure she's probably told you some of those things anyways, but I wanted to make sure they got told here as well. And, again, congratulations, I really appreciate it. And thanks so much for sharing your story.

Larry Chase 37:33
Oh, my pleasure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:38
Hey, many of the stories that you've heard on the podcast are from listeners that have decided they wanted to take action, and taking the first step of having a conversation with our team to try and figure out how we can help. And if you want to implement what you have heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just open your phone right now and open your email app. And I'm going to give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And then when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team. And you can have a conversation with us, we'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and your situation. So open up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line; scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:46
Let's say that we were to overly simplify the career change process for just a second here. If we divided it up into three stages, they would be the identification stage, which is identifying what creates a great next step and beyond for you. Stage number two would be the creating, finding and testing stage. Stage number three would be landing the opportunity. Each of these stages are pretty difficult in their own right. However, I see time and again from the 1000s of people that we work with that stage number two is probably the most difficult, that creating, finding and testing stage. It's also where we get the most questions again and again and again. All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

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Stepping Down From your Executive Role: When It Makes Sense

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Many high performers work hard to climb the corporate ladder. Reaching an executive level is a crowning achievement! Or is it really?

Dan Ruley had worked his way up to become the Director of Sales, but (another) conflict arose between family and work, leading to him losing his job. Re-evaluating his priorities, he learned that an executive level role wasn’t right for him and, even though his new role is technically a step down, he now makes more and is able to focus on what he does best.

What you’ll learn

  • Why your job title doesn’t matter (and what matters more!)
  • How to figure out what is most important for you and how to prioritize it
  • That if you’re unhappy, your family will be unhappy, as well
  • How to take your dream (growing up) and learn what you actually want from it and make it happen

Success Stories

My favorite part of the career change boot camp was actually having some of those conversations and getting feedback and positive feedback about strengths. And to me that was key, because in that moment, I realized that my network not only is a great for finding the next role, it also is helpful to… they help you remind you who you are and who you will be in your next role, even if the current circumstances are not ideal.

Elizabeth , Digital Marketing Analytics Strategist, United States/Canada

Get the Full Backstory

The hardest part was getting overfitting myself into a job board. Because after about a decade of following job boards and what careers were trending in on the uprise, you really get in this holding pattern of not acknowledging what you want. It was you and your podcast and your CCB program. So, more background, I went through your CCB program a year ago. But, I finished it less than a year ago. And some of the tools are you have us design this ideal career profile. And so, you make us acknowledge all of these different aspects and put it together in one sheet. And so, it really visually lays it out that you can combine them.

Allison Curbow, Career Solutions Coach, United States/Canada

Get the Full Backstory

My brain always goes 'Well, what's the worst that could happen?' And that was another one of the exercises from Figure Out What Fits and once you realize what the worst that can happen is, it's not really that bad. In the big scheme of things, it might knock it back for a minute or two, but it's not not a biggie. They have not found it to happen yet. So I've just been pleasantly surprised every step of the way.

Mark Sinclair, Photograher, Australia

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Dan Ruley 00:02
Say, we're gonna pay me more but that wasn't the most important thing. And, you know, I think that, while that it's okay for that to be the most important thing for some people, I think that they need to also think about the overall happiness of what their experience is going to be.

Introduction 00:21
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what it does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Joshua Rivers 00:45
Many high performers work hard to climb the corporate ladder. Breaching an executive level is a crowning achievement for them. Or is it? For some, they may have been promoted beyond their skill or desire. For example, when you're great at sales, you may get promoted to sales manager. But that role moves you into a different skill set. You're no longer focused on making sales yourself, but rather, making sure that your sales team makes the sales. Now this may be great for some people, but for others, they feel trapped in the administrative tasks rather than the face to face interactions as a salesperson.

Dan Ruley 01:26
When you're running a sales team, that includes multiple levels of salespeople. So you're managing this team of people, but yet, you're still trying to carry your own quota too, that's next to impossible to do all of the things effectively.

Joshua Rivers 01:39
That's Dan Ruley. He had worked his way up to become the director of sales. But a conflict arose between family and work, leaving him to lose his job. He began reevaluating his priorities, and Dan learned that an executive level role wasn't quite right for him. And now even though his new role is technically a step down, he makes more money and is able to focus on what he does best. Now, let's jump into the conversation between Scott and Dan, as we hear Dan explain how he lost his job.

Dan Ruley 02:13
You know, I think it's interesting, because I think it also speaks to kind of the state of the world that we're in right now. Right? Like, everybody's gone virtual, you know, there are people that have quit their jobs, lost their jobs, because of the pandemic and things like that. But I think that it has both bolstered people's confidence in themselves to make changes. But it has also, you know, made it difficult for employers to hang on to really good employees, because they're more confident in themselves. With my situation, you know, I had to take some time off at the end of the year to take care of some family things. And when I came back to my previous employer, you know, things were just a little bit off. The whole time I was gone, they were rooting for me, they're like, you know, "take care of your family, everything's gonna be fine. You know, we're here for you. You know, this is the culture that we have... yada, yada, yada." And then when push comes to shove, they're like, you know, "you're the director of sales. It was the end of the year, and you weren't here." And I'm like, I mean, my family is going to come before my director of sales position, because it's my family, you know.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:11
Yeah. As it turns out.

Dan Ruley 03:13
Yeah. So ultimately, they ended up kind of blindsiding me and saying, you know, "we're gonna part ways." And I was like, "wow, that's surprising. Considering I am literally the face of your sales organization" which, you know, it is what it is, you know, I took it with a grain of salt. And, you know, it kind of gave me that push that I needed to just say, "you know, what I need to do what I want to do, rather than continuing to do things that pay me well, but don't give me the satisfaction that, you know, that I want." You know, I'm tooled for chasing money and chasing really high paying sales jobs and things like that. And I just finally came to the realization that I don't have to. I can do something that I really want to do, something that I truly enjoy doing. And I don't really have to stress out about, I don't know, sticking with a plan that I felt was subpar for myself.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:58
So I think what's so interesting about what you said is that potentially, it could have been a good plan for you many years ago. But what you want, what you need has changed. And clearly you have other priorities now, as well. And the plan that... Yeah, exactly. Shocking surprise, right? But I think that that is, what happens to so many of us, is we keep operating on a plan that may have been good in parts for years ago, and now is no longer good. So I think that that is really amazing that you recognize that and came to that conclusion that "hey, like I've worked hard over the years, so I don't have to do it in the same way."

Dan Ruley 04:46
I think one of the problems, one of the pitfalls that people, you know, get themselves into is that they become comfortable and comfort kind of leads to complacency, right? Like so, you get stuck in this comfort zone, you're like, "You know what, I've been doing this for so long. I'm good at it, I'm comfortable with where I'm at, make enough money, whatever the case may be." And you don't really think about the bigger picture, like, what is my life going to be like five years down the road, if I'm still doing what I'm doing, if I'm still stressed out every single day, because of what I'm doing, because of who I'm working with, etc, they don't think about the long term goals. And I think that this, while it was a shock, and it was surprising, and it was stressful, I think that it allowed me the freedom to realize that. Now, and don't get me wrong, not everybody has that same ability, because some people are struggling financially. I was in a good position, because my wife makes good money. And I didn't have to, like, really stress out about like, "crap, I have to find a new job tomorrow" you know. So I think I was fortunate in that, that I had the space to be able to make the decision that I don't want to go back to doing the same thing. You know, I want to pivot my career in a different direction. I mean, it's a direction that I had been in previously as well. But you know, moving back into this direction, it was very fulfilling. And I think that my happiness level at this point kind of speaks for itself.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:07
Yes, I remember chatting with you, shortly after you had that shocking surprise, your previous organization going, "Hey, we're gonna part ways." And at that point in time, not only was it a surprise, which can be stressful on its own right, but how you described what you had been facing over the last, maybe a year prior to that, it was clear that you weren't entirely thrilled with it, as I put it mildly.

Dan Ruley 06:37
Yeah, you're absolutely right. When you're running a sales team, that includes multiple levels of salespeople, everything from SDRs, to account executives to client success, you're managing this team of people, but yet, you're still trying to carry your own quota too, that's next to impossible to do all of the things effectively. And I understand that in small organizations, things like that are necessary. But you also have to be smart about the way that you're executing that, you know, you have to be able to hire enough people to backfill some of the other things if you want your director to be an effective director. And if that doesn't matter, don't have a director just have a bunch of AES and client success folks and SDRs and have more, you know, roll up to the CEO or something. You can't put one person in a position to manage, you know, seven people and then carry a million dollar quote on his own. It's not realistic.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:25
So here's what I'm curious about, then. I know you had just earlier said, hey, you're glad that this happened, and glad that it happened in this way. And it forced you to, it sounds like look forward to the future and say, what do I really want? What were some of the parts and pieces that you were then able to identify that you needed and wanted that had been missing before? Or the areas that you really wanted to focus, your career and your work in?

Dan Ruley 07:53
That's a great question. You know, I think one of the biggest things was is my primary goal being in sales leadership was always to mentor and to help people grow. That's one of the things I'm very passionate about is professional development, personal development, and kind of the psychology behind human motivation. Those have always been things that have been very big passion points for me. And when this whole situation happened, that was the one thing that I looked at more than anything else was like, "What do I actually love about sales leadership?" And that was the mentoring thing. And I look back at my career, and my career has been pretty long. And it's been in sales for the most part for the entire 27 years, I've been doing what I'm doing. And I realized that the only times that I was truly happy in what I was doing was when I was teaching, and I realized that I had a career in sales training before and I was happy, I didn't make very much money. And that's ultimately the reason why I pivoted to a higher paying director type role, and it worked out pretty well for a while. Obviously, things change, you know, your priorities change, your wife all of a sudden decided she's going to be a software engineering does it all on our own, and she makes plenty of money. And you're like, "Well, crap. I don't have to make that much money now." And you know, ultimately, it just boils down to, I decided that teaching was what I wanted to do. So I really kind of went full force into finding a job in sales enablement, or training. And that's where I'm at now. And it's pretty amazing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:12
So, first of all, I know I told you, congratulations earlier. But again, congratulations, because I think you did a really wonderful job. And I got to check with Alistair, who you were able to work with a little bit on our team. And he was keeping me in the loop and filling me in on what was going on in the meantime, and I think you did a really wonderful job working through all the pieces and parts and challenges of that type of transition. So kudos to you on one hand. And then the other thing I'm really curious about is, as you went into this transition and started moving through it, what was the biggest struggle for you or what was hardest for you?

Dan Ruley 09:49
Honestly, the hardest thing was probably getting out of my own way. In the back of your mind when you spent the majority of your career trying to make sure that you're in these larger leadership roles, it's hard to fathom stepping outside of an executive leadership role and into, you know, still a leadership role, but not quite at the same executive level. And I think that was just a hard pill for me to swallow, because I have so much experience and I've been doing this for a long time. But ultimately, it doesn't really matter. You know, titles don't matter, your happiness with what you're doing is what really matters. And interestingly enough, I now make almost three times what I made before as a director of sales with a smaller title. So I can't complain about financial compensation at all, the title doesn't matter, because I'm doing something that I really liked doing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:36
You know, I think that's fascinating, because that happens so many times where we have in our heads, a specific way that we're thinking about this, like in your case, you just said, I had a hard time being able to really orient around, is it the title? Or is it happiness, essentially? That's what I took from what you said. And when you start to remove it and say, "You know what, I'm not gonna focus on that. I don't even have to think about it that way." And it opens up new doors and possibilities, where you essentially got what you really actually wanted, and a whole lot more, too, if we're talking about the monetary side, and completely different way.

Dan Ruley 11:09
Yeah, you're absolutely right. I think that's the biggest thing. When you're thinking or dreaming of making such a big change in your career, I think that you have to pick things apart and figure out what is the most important thing to you, right? Like, is a title the most important thing? And if it is, that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that. At one point in my life title was the most important thing to me. If compensation is the most important thing to you, again, that's great, then you need to go after that. If finding happiness in what you're doing is the most important thing to you, then do that. If you can get all of that wrapped into one pretty little package, hell yeah, you know, go for it. That's fantastic. But I think that you have to be able to pick out what is most important to you, and then put everything you have into going in that direction.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:54
That is, here's what I've learned about that exact thing, both for myself, and many of the people that we've helped over the last many, many years, I guess at this point, is that that is easy to hear and it sounds logical and simple when we're talking about it on the podcast. However, in reality, it's so much more difficult to prioritize for ourselves, what is actually most important, and it doesn't... just because we're prioritizing doesn't mean we're giving up hope on other things that are also like secondary important or third important, but it is incredibly difficult to prioritize that this is most important to me and declare that, like, that takes courage to do that. So I'm curious what helped you be able to do that for yourself?

Dan Ruley 12:42
I mean, I think that my wife had a really big part of that. I mean, having the ability to step away and not have a job for a few months while I was looking for the right one, and having the support of your partner, I think is extraordinarily important. I think that you're absolutely right, it sounds really easy, it sounds great in concept and theory, but putting that into practice, it's a whole different story. And I think that for a lot of people that are out there, they get stuck in this analysis paralysis, almost. Where they're like, "This is what I really want to do. But I don't know if I'm capable of doing it. Maybe I don't have enough experience doing it." I mean, when I was in high school, my original plan in life was I wanted to become a marine biologist.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:23
Was it really?

Dan Ruley 13:24
Yeah, that was my biggest dream in life, was to be a marine biologist. And then I realized that well, at that point, I lived in Arizona, so that was just not going to happen. Not close enough to be a marine biologist, you know. And it's like, you have to evolve what you want to do and figure out why it is that you want to do this specific thing. 15 years ago, I never would have said that I wanted to... my ultimate goal in life is to be a sales trainer, you know, that's not something that you think about, but you think about what it is that brings you happiness and joy in what you're doing. And for me, it's like it's helping other people. So helping other people succeed at what their goals are, has always been a really big part of my life, whether it's with my kids, whether it's with my wife, whether it's with my friends, you know, I just like to help people get to where they want to go. And you just kind of figure out, okay, well, step one is like, let's start in my career in sales, it was an easy one to get into sales. You know, salespeople are a dime a dozen, and you're either good at it, or you're terrible at it, you'll fail fast, or you'll succeed. And I was able to succeed, and I did really well. And I realized that, you know, mentoring younger salespeople that aren't quite as seasoned as I am was really fulfilling for me. So I just latched on to that for a while. And you just keep building along your career and you know, picking up little bits and pieces of what you really find joy out of. And then you get to a tipping point in your career where you're like, "Well, here are the things that I really love doing about what I currently do. Here are the things that are kind of terrible about what I'm doing right now." And then you have to weigh the good and the bad, like, does the good of me being able to help Junior Account Executives or whatever, succeed? Does that outweigh the massive amounts of stress that I'm under? Because I'm managing way too many balls at the same time, right? And then you just have to make the decision to pivot because there are other things you can do, that removes the bad, and keeps the good. And maybe there will be more bad, maybe, but it could be different. And why not give it a shot, right? If you have the ability to try, then you should. If you're stuck in a situation where and so many people are right now, you know, they're stuck in situations where they're struggling financially, and they can't fathom making a huge jump. And if you are in a fit situation where you are living paycheck to paycheck, and you're trying to feed children, then you know what not like, maybe that's not the right time, because you literally can't afford it. But you have to do everything you can to prepare yourself for the moment when you can. And I think that's the important thing is that you have to prepare yourself, you have to follow your gut and what you want to do, because ultimately, what's best for you is also what's best for your family, because my family is a lot happier now that I'm a lot happier. And that's just kind of the way that a family dynamic works, right? Like you live your life and you work your tail off for your family. And if you're unhappy in what you're doing, while you're working your tail off, you're not happy, thus making your family not so happy. And it just, you know, it's all crashing down...

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:17
I love that for so many reasons. And I definitely very much resonate with... it is for me, it is my family that drives a lot of what I do, I really, not only want to show up in a different way for my family, for sure, which is part of what I hear you speaking to. And the other side of it too, part of the reason why I do what I do is I want to role model for my kids that, like, you don't have to just be stuck in a situation that really isn't wonderful for you or for their families in the future, if they choose to go out and have families. Like it... I don't want it to ever be a thing for them where they feel like they need to stay stuck. So kudos to you because I know that's so much harder to actually do than it is to think about. And also I am curious, when you think about that marine biologist, what you wanted to do way back when, are there any Inklings or pieces that you were able to sift out from that? I think about for myself architect was something that, you know, when I was probably 9, 10 years old, that was definitely a thing. And many years later, I realized, well, I love creating things out of nothing, and that's the piece. I would have hated being an architect, quite frankly, but I love that creating something out of nothing, which now I get to do. So what... marine biologists, are there any inklings of pieces that are still true to this day? I'm curious.

Dan Ruley 17:37
I think that a lot of it comes out in like what I do for volunteering. I don't think that I can really equate much of what I do in a professional sense to marine biology. I mean, I did get to work with the Benioff Ocean Institute in my previous role, which was, by the way, phenomenal things. But I think that what I've done since then to kind of, I don't know, I guess, plug that gap or fill that need, whatever you want to call it is a lot of the volunteering that I do is surrounding animals and marine life and things like that. Living in a suburb of Portland, the ocean is an hour and a half away. So I can go volunteer with organizations to clean up the beach or to help monitor different things. And I think that I've been able to fulfill that need. Will I drop everything on the planet to go learn how to be a marine biologist now? Maybe not. But I would definitely do it is like a side gig. That's part of my retirement plan. When I retire one day, I'm going to become a marine biologist.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:31
That's...

Dan Ruley 18:33
I don't know if that's a thing, Scott, but I'm gonna give it a shot.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:36
I think that if that's something you want, you absolutely should give it a shot. Well, I love what you're saying, though, because, like you still have found through volunteer work a way to be connected to what you really wanted, even way back then as a kid. And I think that that is pretty amazing. So...

Dan Ruley 18:52
You know, too many people, you know, they have their dreams when they're a kid, you know, I want to be an astronaut. I want to be this, I want to be that. But when they become adults, they don't take what their dreams were seriously. Like, it was a pipe dream. I never could have achieved that. But you know, maybe you didn't achieve exactly what that was. But you can still achieve a lot of different aspects of what that dream was. You just have to reframe the way that you think about things.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:17
Yeah. Or even dig in, like you've done and identify what was it that I actually wanted out of that.

Dan Ruley 19:23
Yeah, exactly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:24
Very cool. So here's another question that comes up for me. I know that you did a really wonderful job with this transition. But I don't know all the pieces of it. And I'm curious, when you think back what made this type of transition really work for you? Get into the nitty gritty for me just a little bit, like, what was something that ended up going really well in the end, but was maybe more difficult at the beginning?

Dan Ruley 19:51
I feel like the transition for me was probably easier than it is for a lot of other people only because I basically transitioned into doing something that I've already done before and that I have a lot of experience in. So I mean, I think the hardest part of the transition overall was just finding the right place to go, finding the right opportunity for me was probably the hardest part. Because there's obviously 1000s of positions out there, hundreds of different organizations that do what I do now. And it was really sifting through it all to find out, you know, what made sense. I think that you and I had conversations very early on, and I told you that I really wanted to go work for Salesforce. And I love Salesforce. And I would still absolutely would not mind working for Salesforce as an organization, their values really aligned with mine really well. But I think that digging a little bit deeper and understanding what other organizations bring to the table, and what other organizations, what their values are, there's a lot of other options out there, not just Salesforce, and not just Microsoft or insert dream company, here, there's a lot of other companies out there that can do what you want them to do, and I found that with Sage Intacct, you know, I think that it's an organization that I had worked with in the past as a partner in Salesforce, never thought in a million years that maybe I want to apply to work there, you know, it's a financial SAS company, you know, like, I don't know anything about financial services, that's not my gig, so I never would have thought about it. And then when you just kind of explore the different options that are out there, and you kind of decide between these different organizations. And if you're in a position, where you have the experience to be able to pick and choose what organization you really want to work with, I think that that makes it a lot easier as well.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:30
What caused you to begin, not even where you're like, "Oh my goodness, obviously, this is the organization for me, I have to work here." but even long before you got to that point where you started to have inklings of "wow, this actually could be something that I might be interested in as an organization", what were the pieces along the way that caused you to start becoming interested or start realizing that this could be right for you?

Dan Ruley 21:54
Honestly, it started with Salesforce, because I worked so closely with them as an organization. I mean, I spent years traveling around to their different offices and teaching them things, and spending a lot of time and kind of absorbing their company culture. And that is where I realized that culture in an organization, you know, there's a lot of people that are like, you know, they talk about company culture, and a lot of it is to be perfectly blunt, pretty BS, you throw a pool table in the office, and, you know, give people some snacks, and I think that's culture. And that's not the same as organizations like Salesforce, that have a real company culture, where they actually care and nurture their employees. And they, you know, they do a lot of amazing things with equality and things like that. And those aren't things that you know, until you've actually been able to experience it. So I didn't really understand that company culture was important to me, until I started working so closely with Salesforce. And I think that once you do that, and you're researching organizations that you want to work at, you know, that's when you hit the glass doors, and you hit up the reviews on the organization's and you do your research, you know, you make a list of all the different companies or you know, all the different positions that are out there. And you know, these are positions that I want. And then you see this is a company that it's at. Alistair did a really good job where he basically told me to make a spreadsheet. And that's what I did. I made a spreadsheet of everything. He was like, "here's the company name, here's the position that I wanted to apply for, here's their rating on Glassdoor, here's some of the more impressive, you know, reviews that they have. This is what their hiring process looks like, etc, etc." And you just become very prescriptive about what you're looking for. The more you know about an organization, you know, the more you know whether or not you and your own personal feelings and your own personal... the things are important to you are also important to that organization. And throughout my research, I narrowed it down to about, I was like four or five different organizations that I really went for. I threw out the applications, and then I got offers from a lot of them. And then I had to make the decision as to which one I wanted. And that's a good feeling. You know, it's good to have that feeling.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:52
What caused you to choose this one? What caused you, I mean, obviously, I know that it ended up being a pay increase for you. However, it was also more than just that.

Dan Ruley 24:03
Yeah, it was actually a really hard decision, because it ended up coming down to two different organizations that I wanted to choose from. And it was based on employee reviews, it was based on what I read about their company culture. And then a lot of it was based around the position itself. So I basically had the option of choosing between one organization that they had a team of people that would write the sales training curriculum, and they would do all that grunt work for a specific amount of money. And basically all I would be in charge of was having to teach it. And then you have the other organization that it all falls on your shoulders and you develop the curriculum, you teach the curriculum, you do the gap analysis to figure out what else needs to be done. And ultimately, what made me choose Sage Intacct over the other is that I had the freedom to be able to develop my own curriculum. I didn't have to rely on some other person that doesn't have what's in my head in their head. And to me it's more rewarding to build something from the ground up. I mean, I love the idea that they have people that will, you know, curriculum development team, that's great. But I want to develop my own, because I think that my way of teaching things fits better with my teaching style. They're both amazing organizations. And when I turned down the offer at the other organization, you know, I truly felt bad, because I would have fit in right there as well. You know, their team was phenomenal. The people that I met with, I mean, I went through five different interviews, and every single person was wonderful. And it was the same thing with Sage Intacct. So it came down to being a very difficult decision. But ultimately, it was because I wanted more control over what I was doing is why I chose Sage Intacct.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:39
When I think part of your ability to do that, because just because you have multiple offers in front of you, like we've worked with lots of people over the years where they have one or two or three or four, sometimes more offers, however, that being the case doesn't mean it automatically makes it easy, any stretch of the word, just because you have multiple offers. One of the nice things it does do, sometimes, is help people be able to measure what's important to them. But I find that unless you've done enough work to know what truly is important to you, or what you might need, then even that isn't necessarily fully effective. So here's the question that I have for you when you are in that situation. And you realize that, hey, this lines up more with what you actually wanted, like I heard you say, I really wanted to be able to develop my own curriculum. And it's great that there would be all these people doing that in another organization but it wasn't right for me necessarily. How were you thinking about that at the time as you were going through it? Because sometimes it can be a little bit emotionally taxing, when you're trying to make this what feels like a massive decision. And it is a massive decision about how it's going to impact probably the next few years of your life at a minimum.

Dan Ruley 26:54
Yeah, it was definitely not a decision that I took lightly. I think that it was definitely it was a tough one. I just kind of evaluate what I'm going to take greater joy out of in the future. I absolutely could have gone and worked for this other company, and probably you've been able to develop my own curriculum at some point anyway. But it also meant that there was an additional level of red tape that I have to jump through in order to deliver a training session to the people that I need to train, you know. And then with this organization, with Sage Intacct, you know, the way that I kind of meshed with my director, it was a better initial impression and a better initial relationship than I think I've ever had with any other company. And from the very beginning, she told me that because of my skill sets, because of what my experience is, I get carte blanche to do whatever it is that I need to do in order to make their sales team successful. And that, you know, that meant a lot, because I do have a lot of experience. And I do know what I'm doing. And I think for somebody to recognize that and to be able to say you do what you need to do to make us successful, I think that was huge, because it really makes you feel like you are valuable, and that's an important thing to feel as an employee. In all the years that I spent as the director at my previous organization, I never felt like I was valued, even though that I was doubling and tripling their revenue numbers on a yearly basis, I didn't feel like I was valued. You know, I went to all the executive retreats and all that kind of stuff, but there was no real value there. It was very fake. But with Sage Intacct, where I'm at now, I truly feel like I'm a valued person on the team, and somebody that they all lean on and not in a bad way, not like we need them to do all the work for us. But give us advice, tell us how to do these certain things, pull him in on different conversations about other teams that he has experience working with. And I think that that's important. When you're interviewing with organizations, really pay attention to the people that you're interviewing with, because those are potentially the people that you're going to be working with for an extended period of time. And if you get you know, the little hairs on the back of your neck start standing up because you get a bad vibe or something, make a note of that, because you don't want to work with somebody like that, because ultimately, it's not going to work out very well.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:59
It's probably not gonna turn out better.

Dan Ruley 29:00
If I would have known this 10 years ago, because I would have saved myself a lot of problems with a lot of different, you know, a lot of different positions, because I had a gut feeling in the beginning that it was like something feels a little off, but I'm like, but they're gonna pay me a lot of money. So I'm just not going to worry about it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:15
I'll smooth out with money. Right?

Dan Ruley 29:17
Yeah. Well, and that's, you know, that's the thing, like a lot of people use that as the great equalizer. If they have multiple offers, you know, they go directly to whoever is going to pay them the most. That's not the best...

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:27
What if that's not your highest priority, though? And...

Dan Ruley 29:30
And that's kind of where I was, like, the other organization that I was, had it boiled down to, they were gonna pay me more. But that wasn't the most important thing to me. And I think that while that it's okay for that to be the most important thing for some people, I think that they need to also think about the overall happiness of what their experience is going to be.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:50
Dan, I think that is wonderful advice, thinking about the what is the overall happiness and I'm curious for someone who is in the same place that you were, not that long ago, I mean, just months ago, you were thrust into a transition that you hadn't really planned in making that particular way. And you knew that at the same time, you didn't want to just accept anything moving forward. If you take yourself back to that place, and think about that person who's there, because we have many people that are listening right now, in that place, what advice would you give to that person?

Dan Ruley 30:24
I mean, first and foremost, stay calm, don't freak out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:27
Don't freak out.

Dan Ruley 30:28
If you are thrust into this situation, like I was, do your damn best not to have a meltdown, because you know, that is already going to set you back a couple of steps. Look at things objectively, think about what it is that you want in life, what you want to be able to accomplish, think about it in terms of, if I have to wake up tomorrow morning and do this specific thing, and then turn around and do this specific thing every day for the next 10 years, is this something that I really want to keep doing? And if you can answer that, yes, then that's the direction you should go in. But if you can answer that with a, "I don't really know", then think about the other things that you might want to do. I mean, because this is not a small decision to make, to pivot and change your career trajectory and pivot in a different direction. It's a big decision. So think about it objectively, try to keep emotion out of it as much as possible, and figure out what you want out of life and out of your career, and then do everything in your power to go forward in that direction.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:24
That is amazing. Dan, I appreciate you making and taking the time to come and share your story. And thank you for making this fun. I've enjoyed every single chat that we've gotten immensely. And I have just one more question for you because I'm super curious. And I don't know that I initially asked you this way back when, but you talked a lot about, in this conversation, about culture and what you were looking for. And I think a lot of us are looking for different pieces and culture, and we know that, but I'm curious for you, what were some of the aspects that you were looking for that were important to you as it related to culture and the type of culture you wanted to be around and surround yourself by?

Dan Ruley 32:02
That's a really good question. I think that that question is more important now than it has ever been. And I think that for me, personally, I look for a few different things when it comes to culture, you know, I look for culture in terms of equality and representation, and organizations that are looking to work with and hire people from diverse backgrounds, not necessarily racially or religiously or anything like that, it's just overall, how diverse is your team? I love to work with people from all walks of life. And I think that that's a really important thing, too, you know, is working with a diverse group of people, because they bring a lot of different perspectives to what it is that you're doing. The other thing that I look at is, what kind of coaching do they have and do they provide? I look for a culture of coaching, a culture of mentoring, a culture of people that want to help other people grow and get better, you know, if you have an organization that is doing very well financially, but they don't have a good coaching, a good culture of coaching, I guess you could call it, there's going to be a lot of friction points there. And there's going to be hindered growth for a lot of people. I love to see the organizations that promote growth and promote people moving up and helping them get there. And I think that that's really important. One of the positions that I applied to at Salesforce, I ended up not getting because they ended up promoting somebody from within, and I was down to the... they were getting ready to send me the job offer. And somebody that worked in that team ended up applying for this promotion, and they gave it to that person. And I couldn't even be mad about that. I think I respected that decision because this person worked their tail off, you know, maybe they were uncomfortable with applying for it, maybe they didn't think that they were ready. But I appreciated and respected the leaders at Salesforce for giving this person a chance to do it, because it proves that they want to grow their people internally, and that makes me appreciate it. You know, now where I'm at now, it was the same kind of situation. But because I have so much more experience than the other person that applied, they decided to put me in the role. And they are going to potentially hire that other person or promote them to a junior version of my role to where I would actually get to manage and lead them, which is phenomenal.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:06
That's amazing. And both are really wonderful examples of that organization, not just having the type of culture that you want, but also walking the walk in terms of what they want their culture to represent.

Dan Ruley 34:17
And that's huge. You know, I mean, I think that building a culture where the people really enjoy working there, I think is really important. And not because there's a pool table and they've got vodka in the freezer, you want to work for a company that truly lines up with your ideals.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:31
Hey, many of the stories that you've heard on the podcast are from listeners that have decided they wanted to take action, and taking the first step of having a conversation with our team to try and figure out how we can help. And if you want to implement what you have heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just open your phone right now and open your email app. And I'm going to give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And then when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team. And you can have a conversation with us, we'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and your situation. So open up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line; scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Larry Chase 35:51
After one year of seminary, though, I realized that this is not for me. And the short version of the story is that I found my higher calling, and that higher calling was brewing beer.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:03
All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

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