6 Keys to Career Happiness

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I just got off a Skype call with a former Google employee who just made a transition into a role that fits his strengths even better. He is totally thrilled!

I wanted to tell you about it because you might be thinking “who on earth chooses to leave Google? That’s the holy grail of dream jobs!” And that’s what most people think from the outside, right?

But a big trap that it’s easy to fall into when you’re searching for jobs is comparing your insides to someone else’s outsides.

For example, being in a job that looks like a dream job on the outside doesn’t mean it’s going to be the dream fit for YOUR inner values, strengths and interests.

I can’t tell you how many people find HTYC because they’re in a job they thought would be great, but isn’t — it ends up being someone else’s dream and not their own. Or, we get emails every day about people who feel like they can’t get clarity on what their next career move looks like, so they’re stuck in a mental pressure cooker wanting to make a change forward but not knowing how.

Does that sound like you? If so, grab a pen and paper because I have a ton of lessons I’ve learned from personally coaching 1,100 people through career transitions that I want to share with you to save you time, headaches, and help you make the transition you’re dreaming of happen.

Although me and my team now teach people how to find and do work they love, I vividly remember being in a job that wasn’t fulfilling at all. When I was there, I didn’t understand how this whole career happiness thing worked and honestly thought that if I could just get to a better job situation then it would solve all my problems.

Which means that many of us are going about the job change somewhat blindly, we’re looking at job postings online or trying to network or updating our LinkedIn profiles even spending time going on interviews but the problem is that we don’t even know exactly what a fulfilling career looks like for us.

Now here’s the tricky part. We, as human beings, are pretty terrible at determining what will actually make us happy.

Over the last 10 years of many career changes and a lot of experimentation and working personally with over 1100+ people making career changes is that there are 4 traits that we all need and want in our career AND then there are 2 parts that are incredibly unique to who you are. In the rest of this video I want to cover those 4 key traits that you must add to your career list in order to have career happiness.

1. YOU’RE NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO WANTS TO “HELP PEOPLE”!

You wouldn’t believe how many people email me and say “if only I were helping people then I would be happy” or “I just think I should be a counselor because it’s helping people” or “I’m just one of those people that really need to help others” Yes yes, helping people, I get it. There’s also research to corroborate that, it’s not just you. If you’re not a psychopath, then helping people is something that all of us are looking for and if we don’t directly understand how we are helping others then it is less fulfilling.

2. YOUR MOST BASIC NEEDS 

Additionally, if you remember Maslow’s hierarchy from psychology 101 in college, if you don’t have your basic needs met then you never get to the next level. Well, in today’s society, your basic needs just above food and shelter are pay that you feel is fair, a commute that isn’t long enough to make you gouge your eyes out, and not working 10-14 hour days all the time! These things are true of nearly everyone, except for that one crazy that just can’t get enough of the two and half hour commute. You know who you are!

3. WORK WITH POTENTIAL… TO BE ENGAGING

Another big piece of the puzzle that we all need is work that is engaging to us. This can mean a lot of things but the commonalities are having the freedom to decide how to do your work, because I’ve yet to meet someone who is just like “I love micromanagement. It’s so awesome!”

Another is having a clear understanding of how well you’re doing and how well it’s going.

4. A BOSS THAT DOESN’T SUCK (AND SUPPORTIVE COWORKERS TOO!)

That’s why your boss is so important too. If you don’t have a leader who’s making these pieces easier or supportive coworkers, then some of the other pieces might not matter.

Basic needs, freedom and clarity of work, a boss that doesn’t suck, and helping people. Add these to your list, these are things we all must have for work happiness.

None of these will come as a surprise to you, we all knew those intuitively.

Here’s where it gets complicated though. The last two pieces aren’t as black and white.

This is where most people get caught up. It’s also where nearly everybody is doing it wrong or slightly confused. It’s also where misguided advice creeps in like “just follow your passion!”

INSTEAD HERE’S THE METHOD WE TEACH.

When my son, Grayson, was 2 years old, he was sitting on the floor trying to put together a puzzle. He was grabbing the nearest piece and trying to jam it together with another piece that he had in his hand. He would then give up on one of the pieces and throw it away and grab the next closest piece and try to mash it together with another. I watched him get frustrated for a few minutes and then sat next to him to try and show him how to put together this puzzle. And if you’ve ever put together a puzzle you know that there is an easy way to put together a puzzle and many many incredibly difficult ways.

The first thing that you do is take the corner pieces, you can easily identify them and there aren’t too many of them.

Next you gather together all of the edge pieces, you can then start to see different colors on the edge pieces and you can pretty easily assemble them together into a frame.

Once you have the frame you can actually start to see what the picture might be and you can begin filling in the pieces. We do have a lot of Disney and Paw Patrol puzzles at our house so when you get to this point you can see that Mickey Mouse’s ear or Donald Ducks foot and start to fill in what the picture might look like, even if you don’t yet have all the pieces.

Most people are approaching their careers by taking two random pieces and simply trying to jam them together or to put the puzzle together from the inside out. Much like a 2 year old. I’ve done it this way too, it’s frustrating, it leaves you looking at online job postings depressed and wondering why all these jobs don’t look all that interesting or why the ones that do look interesting require 27 years of experience?

Instead if you do it differently, just like the efficient way to put together a puzzle, it’s so much easier to identify a picture of what can be a great situation for you.

Start with the corner pieces, these are your strengths (what you’re great at or have the potential to be great at). Next, the outside pieces are what you want in your life.

The really interesting thing is that when you are very clear on both your strengths and what you value the most, then you’ve now built out a frame and just like the frame on the puzzle, you can now begin to see what the picture in the middle might be. It might not be as easy as Donald Ducks foot, but if I know that it’s incredibly important to me to be able to work out in the middle of the day, then I have to work in a job that’s going to allow me to do that, or if I know that I can’t stand details and I’m a big picture strategy person then I know that the role I’m in can’t have most of my time spent picking apart details because that will drive me insane.

These seem like small things, but when you identify all of these it helps you create a picture that we call your Ideal Career Profile. This acts as your destination.

You can now actually do something with this, much like taking a trip, once you know your destination, you can begin figuring out the best path to take to get there. If you want even more help getting started figuring out the ideal career for you, join our free 8 Day Mini-Course to help you figure out the life and work you love or talk to our team about our coaching programs.

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Scott Anthony Barlow 00:02
Being in the job that looks like a dream job on the outside doesn't mean it’s going to be the dream fit for your inner values and your strengths and your interests. And I can't tell you how many people find HTYC because they're in a job that they thought would be great, but it isn't.

Introduction 00:25
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what it does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change. Keep listening. Here's Scott, Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:50
So a little while back, I had a Skype call with a former Google employee, who had wanted to transition into a role that fit their strengths even better. Okay, so I wanted to tell you about this, because you might be thinking right now, "okay, who on earth chooses to leave Google?" That's the holy grail of dream jobs, right. And that's what I think a lot of people feel from the outside when they see people that are leaving NASA, or Facebook, or Google or Stanford, or all of these other companies that we've had had people come to us from. But the big trap that's really easy to fall into when you're searching for jobs is comparing your insides to someone else's outside. For example, being in a job that looks like a dream job on the outside doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be a dream fit for you, for your inner values, what you value most, your strengths, your interest, and what you actually want out of, you know, organization and well, life. And I can't tell you how many people find HTYC because they're in a job, they thought it would be great but it isn't. And it ends up being someone else's dream and not their own. Or we end up getting emails every day from people who feel like they can't get clarity on what their next career move looks like. So they're stuck in a mental pressure cooker, wanting to make a career change, but really not knowing how. Okay, so if this is sounding even remotely familiar to you, and here's what I want to happen. This is an episode where you're going to want to pay attention. I've got a ton of lessons that I've learned from coaching, at this point, you know, we've worked with thousands of people through career transitions. I want to share some of these with you, that way it can save you some time, some headaches, and help you identify what you need to focus on most, when you're making this type of transition.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:51
I'm Scott Anthony Barlow, I'm the CEO and founder of Happen To Your Career, and the creator of Career Change Bootcamp. And although me and my team now teach how to find and do work that you love, I vividly remember being in a job that wasn't fulfilling at all. And when I was there, I didn't understand how this whole career happiness thing worked at all. And honestly, I thought that if I could just get to a better job situation, or get to a certain job or the right fit job for me, then it would solve my problems. Which means, of course, that many of us are going about this career change somewhat blindly. We're looking at job postings online, or we're trying to network or updating our LinkedIn profiles or spending time going on interviews. But the problem is, we don't even know exactly what a fulfilling career looks like for us yet. Now, here's the tricky part, we as human beings, well, we're pretty terrible at determining what will actually make us happy. And over the last 10 years of many career changes myself and a whole bunch of experimentation, and working with a lot of people making these types of career changes, I've determined that there's actually four traits that we all need and want in our career. And then there's two parts that are incredibly unique to who you are. And in the rest of this video, I want to cover those four key traits that you must add to your career list in order to have career happiness. Turns out, number one, is helping people. And you wouldn't believe how many people email me and say, "If only we're helping people, then I would be happy." "I just think that I should be a counselor because it's helping people. Or I'm just one of those people that really needs to help others." Yes, helping people, I get it. There's also a ton of research out there to corroborate this. It's something you actually need, unless of course, you're a psychopath. And helping people is something that all of us are looking for, and if we don't directly understand how we're helping others, then it's less fulfilling for us. Now, for example, Sarah was one of our students in Career Change Bootcamp. She didn't know anything other than she wanted to help others when she started working with us. We helped her focus on where she could see what she was doing and how it was helping others. And we realized for her, she had to have a cause where she could actively see those people getting help. Otherwise, it didn't fit for her. So we helped her become an operations manager for a nonprofit. But that's not for everyone. The important part is that whatever we're doing, and whatever you're doing, you have to see that direct connection.

Sarah 05:23
Done this before, like, what do you think I could do? Because I know there's like a million jobs out there, right? There's so many different jobs, different industries, different roles that we never hear about, or at least me, you know, average person, you know, you got surgeon, doctor, engineer, you know, those general things, but you, there's tons of times I hear about somebody's job, and I think, "that's kind of cool. I don't know somebody did that." Like, I wouldn't mind doing that. But so I was worried that there was a lot of stuff out there that I probably would be really good at, or that I would really like, I just didn't know what they were. So I couldn't do a search for it. I couldn't tailor my resume for it. Because I didn't know what it was. I just knew there's got to be jobs out there that I haven't heard of that. I would want to do, you know.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:03
Then number two is basic needs. And if you remember Maslow's Hierarchy from psychology 101, back in college, you know, well, if you don't have your basic needs met, then you never get to the next level, right? Okay. Well, in today's society, your basic needs just above food and shelter are pay that you feel is fair, or a commute that isn't two hours long each way, and going to make a gouge your eyes out by the time you get back. And for example, not working 10 to 14 hour days all the time. These are things that are nearly true of everyone, except for the one crazy who can't get enough of the two hour commutes. You know who you are. Now, another big piece of this puzzle is that we all need work that's engaging to us. Now, this can mean a lot of different things. But the commonalities are having the freedom to decide how to do your work, because well, I've yet to meet somebody who's just like, "I love micromanagement. It's so awesome." Now another one of this is having a really clear understanding of how well you're doing and how well it's going. And that's why your boss is actually so important too. Because if you don't have a leader or co workers who are making these pieces easier, and making sure that they're supporting you, then some of these other pieces might not matter all that much, right? So basic needs, freedom, clarity of work, a boss that doesn't suck, and helping people, right. Okay, add these things to your list, we all must have these for work happiness. None of these will come as a surprise. We all knew those intuitively. But what we find that most of us still accept jobs that don't have these four universal keys, and then wonder why we're unhappy when the honeymoon period wears off. Don't do it, stop doing it now. Okay, let's get into the second piece of this. Here's where it gets complicated. The last two pieces are not as black and white. This is where most people get caught up. It's also where nearly everybody is doing it wrong, or is slightly confused. It's where misguided advice creeps in, like just follow your passion. Instead, here's the method that we teach to people. When my son Grayson was two years old, he was sitting on the floor and he was trying to put together a puzzle. And he was grabbing the nearest piece, and he was trying to jam it together with another piece. And he had both in his hand and it just wasn't fitting, right? He would then give up on one of those pieces and throw it away and grab the next closest piece and then try and mash it together. And it just wasn't working. I got watched him getting frustrated for a few minutes. And then I went and sat next to him to try and help them understand how to put this thing together, and how to put together the puzzle in an efficient way. And if you've ever put together a puzzle, you know that there is an easy way to put it together, and many, many really incredibly difficult ways. Now the first thing that you do is you take the corner pieces, right. You can pretty easily identify them. And there aren't too many of them, usually four on a puzzle if it's square, right. Next, you gather together all of those edge pieces. And you can start to see different colors on the edge pieces. And you can pretty easily assemble them together into a frame. Once you have that frame, you can actually start to see what the picture might be. And then you can begin filling in those pieces. Now in our house, we do a lot of Disney and Paw Patrol puzzles. So you can start to see without even having all the pieces that, guess what, this is Mickey Mouse's here, and this is Donald Duck foot. And even if you don't have all those pieces, you can begin to understand what the picture actually looks like. Now most people are approaching their careers by taking those two random pieces and just trying to mash them together and build the puzzle from the inside out, much like a two year old. And I've done it this way too. It's frustrating. It leaves you looking at online job postings depressed and wondering why all these jobs don't look all that interesting. Or why the ones that do look interesting require 27 years of experience, and that you must be an astronaut. Instead, if you do it differently, just like the efficient way to be able to put together a puzzle, it's so much easier. And it's so much more possible to identify a picture of what can be a really great situation for you. Start with the corner pieces, these are your strengths, particularly what you're great at, or have the potential to be great at. Next, those outside pieces, the edge pieces are what you want in your life, these build out the frame. And the interesting thing is, when you're very clear on both your strengths, and what you value the most in your life, then you've now built out this frame, and just like the frame of a puzzle, you can begin to see what the picture in the middle might be. It might not be as easy as Donald Duck foot. But if you know it's incredibly important to you to be able to work out in the middle of the day, then you might have to have a job where they're going to allow you to do that. Or if I just absolutely can't stand details, and I'm a big picture strategy person, then I know that the role I am in can't have most of my time spent picking apart details, because that's going to drive me insane. Now these might seem like really small things. But when you identify all of these, it really helps you to create a picture. And this picture is something that we call your "ideal career profile". This acts as your destination, where you're going. So you can actually do something with this. Once you have that destination, it's kind of like taking a trip, right? Once you know your destination, you can begin figuring out the best path to get there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:36
I'm Scott Anthony Barlow, I'm the CEO and founder of Happen To Your Career, and also the creator of Career Change Bootcamp. My team and I, we work with high performers from all over the world, helping them get clarity on what makes them happy. And then after they've identified it, we help them make somewhat seemingly impossible career changes and make those things actually happen. Now, remember, the opportunity here is much, much bigger than knowing how to write a great resume or a great CV. And instead, understanding how you want to spend your time, so that much more of it is in solving incredibly interesting problems, and helping others in ways that are fulfilling to you. I want to show you how identifying and working with them what we call your 'Signature Strengths' can help lead you down a lifelong path to fulfilling job opportunities and not just the next one. I also want to show you what to actually do with that information, and how it can save you time along the way and energy and focus when you use this strategy to make a career change. Okay, let's start with strengths. I mean, if these are so important, then why does half of corporate America want you to focus on improving your weaknesses? I mean, have you ever been to a performance review lately? I'd like to suggest a slightly different perspective. And let's take Maggie, for example. She came to us, she was working in advertising and communications and was so over her job. We worked with her to identify her strengths, and four months later helped her make a career change into a role that really leveraged her love for teaching and training, but paid her a whole bunch more than what she was making in advertising. Now, at this point, this is where she had started to realize that she had a huge advantage because most people, and most companies are not so well aligned with their strengths. And the ones that are considered high performers or incredibly passionate about their work, the type of people that you've seen and want to be around. Anyhow, in less than 12 months into the role, they're already planning a promotion in 16 months, and she gets promoted into another role that's even a better fit for her strengths. Now, there's a whole lot of reasons and research to support why this happens. But I think it's best coming from Maggie.

Maggie 13:54
Place to work where you have to spend so much time away from your family, I want that time to count, you know, and being able to discover what it is that I'm passionate about. And the people here recognize my passion, like some of the... when my promotion, my most recent promotion was announced, so many people who commented on the passion that I have, and then it comes through and that helps people connect to the material that I'm teaching. And to have been able to be guided into that has been huge for myself fulfillment. So just being able to discover that drive and the time that I spend away from my family makes a difference and it's impacting people and it's fulfilling to me, it makes it easier to be, you know, a mom who works out of the home.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:39
Okay, I think it's fair to say that Maggie is a lot more aligned with her strengths and her work, and much more so than the average person. But this isn't just true for Maggie. We find that tons of people that we've worked with in our Career Change Bootcamp experience the exact same thing. Those people experience promotions, opportunities and growth. So much faster than average when they're working in their areas of the signature strengths. And this is not the only reason though, let's go to the research that Gallup has found. They say that, "you're less stressed by working in your strengths." Wait a minute, what's going on here? Okay, first of all, you probably didn't need 7.8 million data points to figure out that you're less stress working in your strengths. Second of all, this can be pretty confusing, because many of these people are also in incredibly demanding jobs that might often be associated with stress and responsibility. Here's what's happening. Take a look at this graphic. Now, too much stress or distress overflows into anxiety or burnout. And on the other end, boredom, that's not so good for the soul either, what we want you to do is aim for the stretch zone, because that's where it's causing you to grow without outpacing your ability, so much that is continually causing that really, really harmful stress. Now, when you're working actively in your strengths, what is really doing is it expanding that stretch zone and making it much larger so it takes a lot more to move you into that anxiety zone. In fact, think about it this way, you have less capacity to handle stress, if you're working outside your strengths, stress fills up and it overflows into anxiety, and later on burnout. However, if you're spending more of your waking hours and more of your time working in your strengths, then not only does work feel more natural, but you also have a much higher capacity to be able to handle stress that goes along with it. But it doesn't stop there. Because when you have a capacity to experience higher levels of stress, it also gives you an ability to expand your comfort zone much more rapidly than the average person, which means that then you experience growth overall faster as a human being too. Pretty cool, right? But there's even more when you combine your strengths with what you want in your life, like the puzzle method I showed you in the first video, then it creates what we call your 'Ideal Career Profile', which then allows you to create a clear picture of what your ideal career is. So you can get a sense for what your destination looks like. Now, obviously, if you don't know where you're going, it's going to be really, really difficult to get there. Right? It becomes like this really bad road trip that just won't end, you end up in Montana at a gas station. And it's 2am and is negative 24 degrees. And you're like, "how on earth did I even get here in the first place?" And no, of course, that's never happened to me at all.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:29
Now that you have this destination, you've got all the information that you need to begin pushing aside companies and opportunities that just don't fit you and instead focus only on the ones that do. Most of the time, this comes as a huge relief for the really busy people that we work with. Because it means that you don't have to waste all of this time interviewing or applying or networking with companies that just aren't a great fit. Here's why this strategy is most valuable, though, it means that you already have a competitive advantage when you show up to an interview, actually, even before there's ever an interview. And speaking of competitive advantages, thanks to putting in a tremendous amount of upfront work to identify her signature strengths, a client of ours, that's in Career Change Bootcamp has just started interviewing with their dream company, working from home as a learning science researcher. And guess what, she's gonna knock it out of the park because she's been aligning herself with the right companies and right opportunities to pursue and making it so that they can see clearly how she matches up with both the skills and experiences and values that they really, really want. If you do it this way, this is how you actually get jobs created for you, or even modified during the job offer stage. None of that off the rack or stock job opportunities that are posted online. We've got another student named Mike, and you might have heard his story on the Happen To Your Career podcast recently. He had two different job offers. And they aligned really pretty well with what he wanted in the first place to start out with. But we ended up coaching him to ask one of them to change the job responsibilities, so they lined up even better. Keep in mind that one of them pretty badly because of everything that we taught him through Career Change Bootcamp, about interviewing, and about the interview process, and even how you reached out to these companies in the first place. Now once you start to learn how this works, you can begin to realize that by first developing an incredibly clear understanding of what it is that you want and need and what you're great at, then this can become systematic, you can actually work step by step through this type of process. Now you might be thinking, "thanks, God, I get it. This is super important. But figuring out exactly what fits me is way more complicated than watching a 15 minute video." And you would be right. There's thousands of books written on the subject of understanding yourself. And we know that if a simple framework was really incredibly easy to execute on, then everybody would be making well over six figures, well working from their beach condos or whatever floats your boat, and is important to you. Now, Maggie, and Mike and Sarah had all tried many things before they took these same exact concepts and use them to achieve results. And if you want that too, that's where I'm very sure that we can be of help to you, what I'd love to do is invite you to learn more about Career Change Bootcamp, or start to finish step by step program that uses our tried and true research supported framework that we've used in helping over 1100 people. If you've done struggling with jobs that don't fit or companies that don't appreciate what you value, and what you want to thrive in your career, and want a framework that you can use over and over again to get different and better results in every step of the career path and growth, well, that's where Career Change Bootcamp can absolutely help. It's the first and only bootcamp that pairs a proven step by step framework with intensive one on one support, and guarantees that you'll make your career change in six months or less. It's where we help you cross the bridge from where you're at right now, to where you want to go. We even have a career coach assigned to you in the program on day one to make sure that you have every answer you need an extra support, if you get stuck. We've just opened up enrollment for CCB. And if you finally want to gain clarity on what a fulfilling career means for you, and then have our help in making it happen, that's where you should click over to our Career Change Bootcamp enrollment page, and watch the video to learn more about how it can fit you. I want you to experience work that lights you up and uses your strengths and uses your potential. And if you've never had that before, then that's also where we can help, the answers, they're out there for you. And we can hold you accountable to finding them and help being able to move through the process that everyone has to go through to get to work that they love. Especially, if you don't have the perfect experience. Or you don't know yet what your ideal career actually looks like. And when you come out of this program, by the way, you're going to know your signature strengths and how to use them to get you hired, you're also going to be able to successfully position yourself in an entirely new field or industry. Particularly if you don't have all of the experience or have less than other candidates, you'll also be able to figure out what your ideal career would be that would excite you and test drive it prior to taking the job. We also want you to be able to learn to build relationships with hiring managers to get opportunities that are really normally hard to get at, and companies that you love and even potentially get jobs created for you. Now we teach in an insider program, how to cut to the front of the line with interviews, even if you have less experience than other candidates. We combine our on demand online coursework with one on one support from your coach so that you have the very best of both worlds. When you get stuck, there's always somebody that's just an email or a Skype call away that can absolutely help.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:17
Hey, if you want to take everything that we just talked about in this episode, and figure out how to make it work for yourself, like many of the other people that you've heard on our podcast, make big transitions in one way or another, I'm not always talking about massive career changes, but figuring out what really works for you. Or even if you know what is making that transition, we can absolutely help you identifying what would be the very best way to do that. Send me an email, pause it right now, send me an email scott@happentoyourcareer.com, just put 'Conversation' in the subject line. I'll put you in touch with our Director of Student Success. And we can help you discover what would be the very best way that we can help support you. And what do you need to do to take the best path for you to get to where you want to go for a happy and meaningful career. Hey, seriously, pause it right now. Email scott@happentoyourcareer.com 'Conversation' like put it in the subject line. And then yeah, I'll hook you up. You can have a conversation, we'll figure out how we can help. That's what we do. It's what we love to do, as it turns out. And I gotta tell you that we have even more coming up next week for you on Happen To Your Career. One of our most popular guests on the podcast was Emily Wapnick. She talks about being multipotentialite. You might have heard that episode, I think most recently, she was on Episode 173. And someone who has a wide variety of interests and talents, that's what multipotentialite means. Well, next week, I actually get to talk with an expert that has studied and gotten some data on how multipotentialite actually show up on Gallup's StrengthFinders Assessment and many other assessments across the board. There's some clear patterns.

Melanie Buford 25:06
Literally in the interview, I just remember they were like so you know, what do you think you want to do? And there was like an awkward pause and I just, this just came out I didn't even think about an advance but I just said, "I think maybe education."

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:20
High up, no question mark at the end.

Melanie Buford 25:22
Right. Exactly. I tried to make it sound professional. I was wearing a suit.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:26
That's Melanie Buford. And you will be hearing a whole lot more next week on the Happen To Your Career podcast. Until then. See you later. Adios. I am out.

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Saying “No” to Focus on What’s Important with Michael Hyatt

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“Most of the people I know, and coach, are recovering people-pleasers…”

New York Times Best Selling Author, Michael Hyatt said this to me in our recent conversation.

In fact, I’m a recovering people-pleaser myself.

In my first professional job, I worked between 80-90 hours a week. Part of that was because the job was a bad fit. Part of that was because there was a huge expectation to work a ton of hours. And part of that was that I said “yes” to everything my boss asked me to do.

Absolutely everything.

Saying “yes” to every project – to every request.

“Yes, sir, I can make that happen!”

“Yes, I can get that extra presentation done.”

Saying “yes” to all that took a bad situation and turned it into a totally intolerable situation.

Saying “yes” to too many things can hold you back from career happiness. At first, you may be excited that you’re the person that everyone can depend on.

But then it changes.

People start asking you to do more and more because “______ always finds a way to get it done.” In fact, it gets to the point that the people make you their first stop.

This can cause resentment, stress, and fatigue – none of which produce career happiness. But you also find it difficult – or impossible – to stop saying “yes.”

Saying “no” is exactly what we talk about in today’s episode with Michael Hyatt. Michael is a best-selling author (multiple times over) and was previously the CEO of a publishing company before starting his own company.

Michael is also a self-admitted, recovering people-pleaser. As such, throughout past few decades, he has had to learn to say “no” gracefully. In other words, he had to protect his own time and priorities. At one point, he said it this way:

“The way that you can give people a really firm ‘No’ is to have a really firm ‘yes’ on the other side of it.”

Also, he gives specific examples of how he can say “no” to a request, but still present a solution for the person. And people thank him for saying “no.”

Listen to this episode to hear the whole conversation, including:

  • Why it’s so hard for you to say “No” to people… and what to do about it
  • How to get back hours of free time each week
  • The connection between having a vision and conquering daily distractions
  • Using elimination, automation, and delegation to crush even more tasks on your to-do list
  • Why you need more than one routine to run your day
  • The most important things you can do to be more focused and more productive

Also, as an added bonus, Michael shares the best advice on how to stay happily married for 40 years.

DOWNLOAD THE TRANSCRIPTION OF THE EPISODE NOW

If you want even more help getting started figuring out the ideal career for you, join our free 8 Day Mini-Course to help you figure out the life and work you love or talk to our team about our coaching programs.

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Michael Hyatt 00:02
People can handle 'no', what they can't handle is not knowing. And so often, that's what happens. We just let those kind of requests languish in our inbox because we're afraid to say 'no', and that's the kind of thing that makes people angry, not when we actually say 'no'.

Introduction 00:22
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:46
Welcome to the Happen to Your Career Podcast. If you've ever found yourself with more obligations than you feel like you can humanly handle or look at your calendar and to do list and realize that somehow you've accumulated much more than you can possibly do or then you can enjoy. Then you're going to love our guest today, he's a New York Times and Wall Street Journal, best-selling author, former CEO of Thomas Nelson and current CEO of his own company helping leaders around the world. And also on a different note, a couple years back, my wife and I used his best year ever goal setting program and experienced, wait for it, our best year ever in both our business and our lives. So I'm excited to welcome to the show, Michael Hyatt. How are you Michael?

Michael Hyatt 01:33
I'm doing great, Scott. Thank you so much for having me on.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:36
Yeah, absolutely. And I've gotta ask, I believe I read someplace that you have now been married for 40 years. Is that right? Did I understand that correctly?

Michael Hyatt 01:51
That's true.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:52
That is amazing. I have a ton of respect for that. My wife and I are working on approaching 20 here. So I have an immense amount of respect for 40. Okay so selfishly, I'm curious, been married for 40 years. What is the biggest piece of advice that you would give me on working on the halfway point?

Michael Hyatt 02:13
Wow.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:13
No pressure or anything, Mike.

Michael Hyatt 02:16
I would say, always give your spouse the benefit of the doubt. They don't wake up usually with ill intentions. If they've done something to offend you or hurt you, it was probably accidental, so assume the best and go from there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:32
I love that and I appreciate that immensely. Thank you for indulging me and…

Michael Hyatt 02:37
You're welcome.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:38
I have so many different questions. We're gonna spend a bit of our time today talking about how to say ‘no’ at work, but I'm really curious, you've worked in a variety of different environments, had different types of leadership roles. And I'm curious what you feel like, are some of the biggest places many leaders and professionals miss the opportunity to say ‘no’ at work or in their lives? What have you experienced?

Michael Hyatt 03:05
Well, I found that most people that are in a leadership role got there in some measure, because they were likable and a part of being likable in our culture is saying ‘yes’ to people being compliant. And I think that most of the leaders I know and coach are recovering people pleasers. I know I am. And unfortunately while I can, you know, help move you up the ladder, it can also get you into trouble. I remember a quote from Warren Buffett, he sai "The difference between successful people and really successful people is that the really successful people say ‘no’ to almost everything."

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:43
Which is also a totally different outlook. Folk go from saying, "I'm gonna say 'no' to a few things too. I'm going to say 'no' to very nearly everything." That's a completely different mindset that goes along with it, I would say.

Michael Hyatt 03:56
Yeah, absolutely.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:58
So what do you think it takes to shift in that mindset? Because that's huge.

Michael Hyatt 04:04
Yeah, I think the way that you can give people a firm 'no' is by having a really firm positive 'yes' on the other side of it, you know, everything in life is a trade-off. And especially time because time is a finite resource and it's a zero sum game. So that, if I choose, for example, to have coffee with a friend or breakfast with a friend, you know, that's going to mean that I'm not going to be able to work out because I work out in the morning. So there's a trade, there's a swap there. And most of us aren't conscious of the fact that we're making a swap. And I think that what we got to do is get clear on the bigger question of 'yes.' What are we saying yes to? What do we want our life to be about? What do we want our career to be about? What is the vision that we have? In fact, that's where I start with my book, "Free To Focus", the very first chapter is about or a chapter called formulate, by talking about formulating a vision for what it is that you want. If you don't have that vision, you're just going to be reactive in the moment. Saying 'yes' to whatever comes across your plate, whether it's a task, assignment, or a calendar invite, or an opportunity. And before long, your calendar is just full, you have no time for yourself, no time for the people you love the most and no time to really do the things in your career that advance it and give you momentum and cause you to continue to grow and expand.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:21
So that's great. I love the concept of formulating a vision for what you want. We spend a lot of time on our show talking about that exact thing. I'm curious, then, what does that mean for you? Or what's an example of that for you, you know, what goes into your vision of what you want?

Michael Hyatt 05:40
Yeah, one of the things I learned as I began to study productivity a couple decades ago, is that for a lot of people and for most people, I think productivity is an end in itself. It's just they want to, you know, be more productive, so they can be more productive, so they can be more productive. And I think productivity is a means to an end. And for me, the biggest vision is freedom. And in fact, that's why the book is called "Free To Focus". And I specifically have a vision for four aspects of freedom. First of all, I do you want to have the freedom to really focus, and in a distraction economy, the distraction economy that we exist in today, where we're constantly being pinged for this thing, or another notifications are going off on our phones, on our desktop, it's very difficult to focus on the work that matters most. Not all work is created equal but 20% of the work that we do, according to the credo principle, leads to 80% of the results that we experience in our business or in our life. So I want the freedom, first of all, to be able to focus, do the creative work, the hard work, the problem solving, that's going to move the business or I made a deal in my business and my life. Second kind of freedom I want is, I want the freedom to be present. You don't want to be... when I'm out on a date with my wife, like, I want to be tonight, by the way, but the secret for long term marriage.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:58
Yeah, I appreciate it. Keep it coming.

Michael Hyatt 07:01
So, you know, we'll be out on a date tonight. And I want to be fully present with her. I don't want to be checking my phone, I don't want to be worried about something at work, I want to be fully present with her to engage, and to just share lies with one another. Third freedom I want is, I want the freedom to be spontaneous. I don't want to have so much of my schedule spoken for every little bit, you know, planned out that I don't have the freedom to stop what I'm doing to go help a friend, to visit with my grandkids when they come over. I want some whitespace, some breathing room in my schedule so that I'm not, you know, constantly overdrawing as if it were my bank account. And then finally, I want the freedom to be able to do nothing. Nothing is way underrated in our culture. And yet, when you think about it, when you're doing nothing, sometimes that's where you get the biggest breakthroughs of all, you have that creative thought that sponsor multimillion dollar idea, or you figure out how to fix a relationship that's broken. But it takes that time of doing nothing to get those kind of breakthrough. So again, I'm after freedom. That's my vision.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:07
Michael, do you find that when you're speaking about freedom to do nothing, is that something that people take to or enjoy the idea of, or do you find that there's a lot of apprehension around that? I'm curious.

Michael Hyatt 08:24
Well, yeah. I would say it's twofold. First of all, people are super excited about the idea. They just kind of have a collective sigh of relief when I teach other stuff because they think, "Man, how awesome would that be to not be running for this thing to the next, out of breath all the time?" But then immediately, they feel something anxiety because they say, "What would I do with myself?" And I really learned about this fourth kind of freedom when I visited Italy. My wife and I went there for a month, about two years ago. And we were there in the summer. And they actually have this phrase of "la dolce far niente", which means "the sweetness of doing nothing", and they practice it so well. So for example, you know, about five o'clock in the afternoon, everybody, if you're in Rome, or Florence, or really any city of any size, people pour into the streets, you know, they have cocktails together, they just visit... they're basically doing nothing, enjoying life together. And we relish that, but we found that unless we have something planned in that nothing time, you know, in other words, we got to be recreating or spending time with people, but left to ourselves if we don't have a plan, that we just drift back into work because that's what's familiar. And for a lot of people, they love their work, but they end up working all the time. No weekends, no free nights, no vacations, all the rest.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:44
That's really interesting. And on one note, I can't wait to experience that for myself in Italy. Italy is on our list. We pull our kids, my wife and I, pull our kids out of school about once a year and typically go four to six weeks live in another country. So Very excited for that, and probably have many more Italy questions. However, on that note, though, when you're talking about, unless we have something planned, expand on that for me, you know, what does that actually look like? How do you do that? Because I think that it's easy to say that, and I think we might understand that concept, logically. However, I feel like that's one of those things that is much more difficult to do, or to make work in reality. So how do you actually make that work for our listeners?

Michael Hyatt 10:32
Well, first of all, I struggled with it myself, because what I would do is often I go into a weekend with the best of intentions, and find myself drifting into work, grabbing my laptop, picking up my phone, and engaging in work almost mindlessly, or reflexively, or maybe even compulsively. So one of the tools that I talked about in the book, and we also have... I have a paper planner that's grown quite popular, called the 'Full Focus Planner'. And there's a worksheet in there that's called "the weekly preview'. And I do mine on Sunday evening, and there's one each week that comes around. But we have a step in there called "the weekend optimizer", where we talk about and encourage people to plan how they're going to use their free time for this to rejuvenate, because you're going to be more productive, more focused, make a greater contribution, be more satisfied at work, when you give yourself time to rejuvenate. So that looks like things like sleep, ask yourself the question, "How much sleep do you want to get this weekend? Do you want to take a nap? Do you want to sleep in? What do you want to do? What about eating? What kind of nourishment? Do you want to go out with friends? Do you want to spend some time with them? Do you want explore some restaurants or maybe stay home and make something for dinner that you haven't made before?" Exercise. Maybe go on a hike, play golf, go fishing, something related to exercise. Connection or play, you know, meeting with friends, one of the few relationships that are life giving to me that really give me energy, that sustain my spirit, that encouraged me, and being really intentional with those kinds of things. So I think, you know, for me, on Sunday night, I plan the next weekend. So that gives me a week kind of set it up, contact my friends, if I want to go out with them, get a tee time if I want to go, plan a fishing trip, whatever it is. But I want to make sure that I've got positive things that are not work that I'm going to be doing that next weekend.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:24
I found that really difficult, as well. And it's certainly been a progression for me. But I've almost had to trick myself into it in some ways, as crazy as that sounds, you know, even to the point where, you know, one of the things that my wife and I do at this point is we'll give our kids coupons during the Christmas season of a variety of ways that we want to spend time with them and with each other and everything like that, so that it gets put on our calendar for the entire rest of the year. But my question becomes, like, what are some of the things that you've seen to make this easier as a process overall? Because I think it really can be challenging. And even if you have on my calendar to be able to sit down and plan out the next weekend, sometimes it's really easy to get caught up in the variety of other things or feel like I can't, you know, plan that additional time too.

Michael Hyatt 13:21
Well, I think that this is where it helps to have an overarching vision for your life. In a book I wrote a couple of years ago with my friend Daniel Harkavy, it was called "Living Forward" it's about how to have a life plan. And one of the things we talked about there is creating a vision for each of the major domains of your life. So as it turns out, there's more to life than work, right. So there's, you know, there's your personal life, your intellectual life, your spiritual life, your emotional life, there's your relationship with your spouse, your relationship with your kids, your work, your hobbies, all that stuff. And they're all interrelated. So that if I don't take care of myself in terms of my health, that can have a very negative impact on my business, if I get sick, or if I have a heart attack, or I'm disabled, that's not gonna be so good for my career. Conversely, if I'm in a work that's constantly a lot of stress, if I'm burned out, that's probably going to have an impact on my most important relationships, and maybe even my health. So I think getting clear, again, we kind of go back to the vision, you know, what I want my life to be about, you know, one of the things that humans have the ability to do is to deceive ourselves, you know, we kid ourselves. And we, you know, we think my current situation, and I'm stressed out, I'm working hard. I'm in this hustle mode right now. But here's where the deception comes in, it's only temporary. And I used to tell my wife, Gail, I'd say, you know, "As soon as we get through this, this launch, or as soon as we get through, you know, I get adjusted to this new job that I've just taken, then everything will settle down." But these things that are temporary have a way of becoming permanent, unless we have a vision for a different quality of life. And then planning the next weekend becomes a step in that direction. But I've got to keep the vision in mind, or I'm probably not going to do it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:07
That's interesting. And I think that, I know I asked you earlier about, you know, what are some of the opportunities that we have to say 'no'. And I almost think that that is one of those that were missing in a variety of different ways. Where it's a, you know, when this happens, then it will be different. However, what I'm hearing you say is that, if that initial vision isn't there to actually do it differently, then when it happens things aren't going to change unless there's some other foundation that you're moving towards. Is that correct?

Michael Hyatt 15:41
Yeah, that's absolutely correct. I mean, I think that for the average person, they've got so much stuff they're trying to manage, because they've got their work life, they've got their career, maybe they're involved with their church or their community. And so there's all these demands, all these requests that are being made, all these meeting people want you to go to, all these opportunities, and they're all good. But we've got to have a filter, otherwise, we're going to be overwhelmed. It's like standing on the beach face at a tsunami. But one of the tools that I talked about in the book, "Free To Focus" is the freedom of compass. And this is a way to think about your book, or your work that I think is a game changer. And if you could just imagine a traditional compass, imagine a circle and it has, you know, North where you would expect it at the top of the circle, South at the bottom. And North represents in the freedom compass, the things that you love, the things you're passionate about, the things that give you the most joy and satisfaction represents those things as well as the things that you're proficient at, the things you're really good at, the things that people are willing to pay you to do. And so I call that in the book, 'the desire zone'. This is true North, this is the work where you make your greatest contribution, it's the highest and best use of you. Now, directly opposite from that, which is due South is the drudgery zone. These are those things where you have no passion, and you have no proficiency, you don't enjoy them, and you're not good at them. So when I left the corporate world, and I was managing a very large company at Thomas Nelson publishers, and we were doing about a quarter of a billion dollars a year, I had two full time assistants, and all of a sudden, I stepped out of that and found myself a solopreneur. And I was trying to do everything, not just the things that loved and the things I was good at, but increasingly, I was doing administrative tasks that for me, were not in my desire zone like they are for my current assistant, but they were in my drudgery zone. And besides that people weren't paying me to do those things. And so the thing about this of freedom compass, by the way, there's two other zones to where, like, the disinterest zone, where you might be good at it, but you don't really enjoy it. For me that was accounting. Or the distractions zone where you might enjoy doing it, but you're not very good at it. And it's where you go to escape or waste time. But the key to being able to pare down everything and being able to know what you're going to say 'no' to is to know what's in your desire zone. And for most of us, that's a small band of activities, where we can really feel good about the work, and we can really do a great job. And the more we can focus on that, the bigger better results will experience in our life and in our work. So, make sense?

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:22
That makes a ton of sense. And it also raises another question. In the book, you spend time talking about automation, and different ways to automate and even some different areas to automate. And I am curious, what are some of the ways that we can use automation in order to spend more time in our desired zone? And specifically, I'm looking for, you know, what are some examples of that in addition to those ways too? So help me understand that.

Michael Hyatt 18:56
Sure. Let me put it in context. This is kind of the middle third of the book where I talk about cutting all those activities, say 'no' to all those activities that are outside of your desire zone. So I do that under three overarching principles: eliminate, automate, and delegate. And they're in that order for a very specific reason. First of all, we don't want to automate something that should be eliminated. And we don't want to automate something that needs to be delegated. So we eliminate everything we can of what's left, we ask ourselves the question, "Does a human need to do it? And if not, then we can automate it. If so, then we have to ask the question, am I the right human to do it? Or could it go to some other human?" And that's delegation.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:39
Let me ask you about that really quick, though. So how do we decide if a human needs to do it?

Michael Hyatt 19:44
Well, I think you work through those in the exact order I gave. First of all, does this need to be done at all? Can I eliminate it? Second question, could a machine do this? Could this be automated in some way? If the answer to that is 'no' then you basically get to the place where a human has to do it, then the question is, am I the right human to do it? And if not, then it gets delegates.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:07
Appreciate that very much. Yeah, it makes a ton of sense. And okay, so then what's our next...

Michael Hyatt 20:12
Do we go back to automation?

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:13
Yes, please.

Michael Hyatt 20:14
Automation. Okay. So one of the things I do talk about, and this is... you could argue that this is the human element, but it's self automation, where you essentially, at least subtract the mental focus that it requires to do it. And I talked about four specific daily rituals that everybody needs to have. And so I talked about a morning ritual. In other words, what are the things that you can do every day that sets you up for the best possible day? Athletes do this, you know, they have a pregame ritual. And sometimes it's a little bit superstitious, but they go through the same things to give themselves the mindset, put themselves in the best place physically, so that they can go out and win the game. So a morning ritual. Then the next ritual is a work day startup ritual. So instead of, you know, checking email all through the day, why not do that as a part of your work day startup ritual, where you go through a handful of things, take about 20 or 30 minutes, and then you can get on to the deep focused work, that is what you're actually paid to do. And then a work day shutdown ritual, where you do that same thing again, except now you're trying to disengage from work, so that you can leave it behind, and give yourselves fully to the evening's activities, whether that's, you know, time with family, or time and recreation, or whatever it is. And then finally, an evening ritual. So you can set yourself up for the best possible sleep, because, as it turns out, being rested is one of the most important things you can do to be more productive, and more focused. Sleep all by itself will make you more productive. And a lot of people try to be more productive by cheating on sleep. But that's why they can't focus. That's why they can't concentrate. That's why you try to read a book late at night, and you keep reading the same paragraph over and over again. Because you're tired, you can't focus. So that's self automation, doing those rituals. But another kind of automation, and here's what I discovered, kind of by accident about 20 years ago, and I found out that or discovered that the same kind of requests were coming in over and over again. And so I started to catalog them. So I get a request from somebody to, you know, serve on a nonprofit board, or another request to make a charitable contribution, or another request to get together with somebody for coffee and just so they could pick my brain. And so I cataloged these, I came up with, I don't remember now, about maybe 40 of these. And I said, "What if I created a template response, so that I could say 'no' to these requests, but say 'no' with grace. So that I felt good about it, and the person receiving the email felt good about it." And then I saved these as email templates. I'll talk about the specific format, speaking of how to say 'no', here in just a minute. So now when somebody sends me a request, because I used to be a book publisher, people want me to review their book proposals. And I just don't have time for that, I can't do it anymore. But instead of me kind of, you know, procrastinating because I'm not quite sure what to say, and I don't want to let that person down, or let it sit in my inbox until I finally get irritated enough that I get too aggressive in my response. Rather than that, I just grab an email template, and I personalize it a little bit. And it takes me about 10 seconds to respond to that email, rather than 10 or 20 minutes to compose one from scratch. Now, Scott, here's the cool thing. I save all of these as email signatures. So typically, people have an email signature that they've created that you know, has their phone number and their address, maybe their title, so forth. But the truth is, you can use it with most email programs have an unlimited number of signatures, you can put all kinds of blocks of text in there, and then just pull those down, select those as needed. And today, I've got probably 50 of them that I use on a regular basis. And it makes it so easy to respond when somebody writes in and I can feel really good about the response. Now, can I just take a minute and tell you about how I say 'no' with those?

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:18
Please do. That's one of the things I am anxiously awaiting for. So, yes.

Michael Hyatt 24:08
Okay. So one of the best ways to say 'no', and I learned this from Dr. William Ury, in his book "The Power of a Positive No". And that is this formula, where whenever you say 'no' to somebody, you use the "yes-no-yes" formula. You know, some people call this the sandwich approach. But it's a little bit different than that. So the first thing I'm going to do is I'm going to begin with an affirmation. I'm not going to try to shame people for making a request of me, or make them feel small. I want to affirm them. So for example, somebody is writing to me, wanting me to review their book proposal, it might look like this, my first paragraph would say, "Hey, congratulations! You done something that most aspiring authors will never do. You've completed a book proposal. That's one of the most important first steps you can make. Congratulations." So that's the positive yes, right on the front end. Then what I want to do is give them a 'no', that's unambiguous, you know, now I'm going to say 'no' in a way that's clear, and does it allow for any whistle room, I'm gonna establish a clear boundary, but I'm going to do it in a gracious way. So I might say something like this, I may might say, "Unfortunately, due to my other commitments, I'm not able to say yes to your request." So what I said there is I've linked it to my other commitments, I'm trying to be a person of integrity, I want to follow through on what I've already committed to, you know, I don't want to double booked my time. And because of those commitments, and it's all absolutely true, I can't say yes to your request. But notice that it's unambiguous. So I'm saying it in a way... I'm not saying "Hey, check back within a couple of weeks. You know, I'm busy right now. Maybe I'll have time later." No, then I just have to deal with it later. So I'm going to clear boundary, where I, you know, put a line in the sand and say 'no'. So that's "yes. no." And then finally, another, yes. Where I'm going to try to be helpful if I can be helpful, you know, maybe I could refer him to somebody else. Or maybe I could just, you know, wish them well, and say, "Look, I wish you the best for the book. All the best to try to find a publisher. If you get it published, please send me a copy, or I look forward to buying a copy" or something that ends on a positive note. Now I'm gonna tell you something, I have never had a negative reaction to a 'no' kind of email like that. Usually, people thank me for getting right back to them. People can handle 'no' what they can handle is not knowing. And so often, that's what happens. We just let those kind of requests languish in our inbox, because we're afraid to say 'no.' And that's the kind of thing that makes people angry, not when we actually say 'no'

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:42
I love that. And I so appreciate you going into detail on an example of that. And I know you have some examples in the book as well. But I'm curious for somebody who wants to sit down and write these types of templates, what would you recommend for them to be able to get started? So they can start saying 'no' with grace.

Michael Hyatt 27:01
Well, the first thing I would do is I would develop what I call a "template mindset". In other words, anytime, and this is an automation principle, but anytime you do any task, ask yourself the question, "Is it likely that I will be doing the same task again?" So if I'm getting a lot of requests for book proposal review, like I am, and that's not gonna apply to most people, but whatever it is for you, if I'm getting that request a lot, then what I want to do is take some extra time on the front end, and write a thoughtful response that follows that "yes-no-yes" formula, and then save it as a template. So I could reuse it. You don't have to do all these at once, just do them as they occur incrementally as you experience them. But it starts with that template mindset. And it's not just email, for example, when I'm making slide deck presentations, because I do a lot of webinars and a lot of public speaking. I asked myself the question years ago, I said, "Is it likely that I'll ever do another webinar after the first one I did?" "Uh, yeah." Pretty good chance of that. So I created a webinar template using Apple keynote. So that's the basis of every webinar I ever do, I start with the template, because it has the seven sections in a webinar that are all mapped out. And from there, it just becomes kind of fill in the blanks or paint by number. So use a template whenever you can, because it will save you time later.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:19
I appreciate that example personally. I do a lot of webinars and public speaking as well. And I have been, unfortunately, come to that conclusion much later than I wish I would have. So thank you for that.

Michael Hyatt 28:32
You're welcome.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:33
Yeah. Different questions. You mentioned, startup ritual. And I'm curious what that looks like for you in your day startup ritual, as I think what you had called it, what does that look like for you personally? And another question, I was talking with one of our listeners yesterday, and they apparently are a fan of yours. They mentioned you offhand. And I'm like, "Well, I'm talking to Michael on the podcast tomorrow. So I can just ask him." They were curious, what time you get up in the morning and how much sleep you get?

Michael Hyatt 29:05
Yeah, so let me start with the last question first. So I shoot for eight hours a night and I measure this rigorously using the oura ring (o-u-r-a), which tracks my sleep better than any device I've ever found.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:18
Love that. It's amazing. I've got one on my finger right now.

Michael Hyatt 29:21
Yeah, it is. It is amazing. And it's really accurate. So I'm shooting for eight hours, but I almost always get, you know, seven hours and 15 minutes. A lot of it just depends on how much tossing and turning I'm doing through the night. But I find that I function the best when I do that. And by the way, I get up at 4:45.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:40
There you have it. You heard it here.

Michael Hyatt 29:43
Yeah, that's so... I don't think anybody's ever asked me that question. But that's what time I get up. I get up at 4:45, I do have an alarm set, it almost... I almost always catch it before it goes off because I'm just, you know, acclimated to that. But my work day startup ritual consists of four items. First, I empty my email inbox. And, you know, I probably get 150 emails a day. But I don't see... I probably have five emails that I have to deal with in the morning. And here's why. Because my assistant, Jim, manages my email account. So I have two email accounts, I have the one that I give to everybody out there except the people on my staff. And that's the one that comes into gym. And then I have a super private email address. And Jim drags the ones that demand my attention into my private email inbox. So when I wake up, or when I get to the office, and I'm doing my startup ritual, I'm seeing only those few emails that he felt like he couldn't handle on his own. And then it requires my personal touch. So that's number one. Number two, is that I review and respond to slack messages. Now slack is a piece of software that we use for all internal communication, sort of somewhere between email and text messaging, but we love it, we've been using it for about three years. Third thing I do is I check social media, I don't spend a lot of time there, but I'll check my Instagram account, my Facebook account and my Twitter account, maybe respond to a few messages. And I've got a social media manager who helps me with the posting, so I'm just really replying to stuff. And then finally, I review and confirm my daily big three, the three items that I'm going to be focused on for today, three, and only three items I'm going to be focused on today, that are really the important things that will really move the needle on my business.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:36
I really appreciate that. And I'm taking notes for myself, as well. And I'm curious on a semi unrelated, semi related note, you know, you mentioned like, the oura ring as an example. And oura measures a ton of different things. But that leads me to ask the question of, you know, what are some things that you measure in your life that maybe most people wouldn't think of, you know, whether it's health, or fitness, or sleep related or anything else along those lines, what are some things that you measure in your life that matter a lot to you, but maybe most people wouldn't want to think about?

Michael Hyatt 32:17
Well, certainly all the things, all the various things in the business, you know, we have key operating indices that, you know, we follow, and that's gonna be different for every business, but in my personal life, the things that I tend to measure, like I weigh myself every single day, and I'm just trying to make sure that, you know, my mouth doesn't get too far ahead of my stomach. And you don't want to keep my weight, you know, managed. There have been times when I've been on various nutrition regimens where I've measured very carefully my food intake, like, I went on the keto diet last August. And so my wife and I were both using an app called carb manager, and it wasn't so much... Well, I said this, we weren't used to eating as much fat as the keto diet required. And we were tempted to eat too much protein and too many carbs. So by measuring it, it really kind of helped calibrate and after we got into the rhythm of that about after three months, we didn't feel like we needed to measure it anymore. So occasionally, we'll do that. But another thing I measure on about a weekly basis, is I'll check the ketones in my blood. You know, I've got a little $70 device that will check that with great accuracy. And speaking of blood in the US, I'm telling you, but about twice a year, I go in for a comprehensive blood panel, and then I sit down and talk about it with my doctor. And the thing that I love about that is it's an early detection system, because you can see so much, so many problems will show up in the blood before they show up anywhere else. And so for me managing my health, managing my energy, and by the way, productivity is more about energy management, than it is time management. So I want to make sure that I'm getting adequate nutrients, that all my blood level, all the different measurements are right. And so I follow that pretty meticulously. So those are some of the things that I measure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:05
I really appreciate that. And I'm also very interested in what you just said, we've done a variety of different episodes on energy management as well. But I'm curious what you mean, when you say, productivity is really much more energy management than anything else. Can you expand on that for me?

Michael Hyatt 34:23
Sure. We'll think about how much you can accomplish, like for me, I'm a morning person. So in the morning, that time is so precious to me, you know, I can accomplish more in an hour than I can in the evening in three hours because I rested my blood sugar levels, right, all about the energy management. So when I'm energetic, I can be more focused, I can accomplish more. And, you know, a book that was really helpful to me was Daniel Pink's book on chronotypes, I think it's called "When".

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:54
"When". Yeah. Absolutely. We had him on the podcast a short while ago. Great book. You mentioned it.

Michael Hyatt 35:01
Awesome. Yeah, great book. So I've realized that, for example, for me as a morning person, you know, as a morning Lark, I like to do my most creative, most intense, most focused work first thing in the morning or early in the morning after I've done my morning ritual. And then I go through that trough, you know, that kind of declining period when my focus isn't so great. Usually, that's right after lunch. By the way, I take a nap for 20 minutes every single day. But after I get it from my nap, you know, I'm not at my best, I'm refreshed. But this is a great time to do administrative work or work that doesn't require a lot of creativity, and not a lot of problem solving. And then I usually get a rebound, you know, recovery later in the day, and then I can go back to some more creative work. So knowing that's super helpful to me. So, you know, I also think there's a big aspect of energy management, there's just the decision you make to be energetic, because your mental attitude, probably more than any other single item affects how you feel about yourself and the energy that you bring into the world. And I don't remember who first told me this is not original with me. And I'd cite the source if I knew it, but I don't. But whoever it was, said, "You got to decide in life, whether you're a thermostat or a thermometer." It was either you create the temperature, or you reflect the temperature. And I want to be the kind of person that creates the temperature, I want to be a thermostat. You know, I want to have energy, I want to bring energy. And for me a lot of times, most times, that's a decision, you know, I got to this interview with you, you know, I could... After lunch, my time, I could be a little groggy out or I could say, "No. I'm going to be energetic. Scott's got an awesome program with an awesome audience. I don't want to bring my best. So I'm going to be energetic." Energy is a caused thing in that sense.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:51
Well, I appreciate you bringing the energy Michael, very, very much for a variety of different reasons. Oh, my goodness, we've covered a lot more different places and topics from how to have a happy marriage all the way to how to say 'no' to a variety of things in betweens, I so appreciate you covering so many different directions here.

Michael Hyatt 37:14
You're welcome.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:14
Many more than we usually get into one episode, and at this point in your life, because I would consider you a leading expert in the ability to be productive and saying 'no', you're definitely influencing a chunk of the world in those areas. So what, at this point in your life, is most difficult for you to say 'no' to now?

Michael Hyatt 37:37
I think the ongoing challenge for me is to say 'no' to technology. Now here's what I mean by that. I love technology. I consider myself a geek, you know, I've got... if you could see, the studio I'm in right now, I've got four Macs sitting on the desk in front of me. I've got two PCs across the room. And I've got my phone in my back pocket. The problem is all that technology, unless we have a clear philosophy of technology and particularly as it relates to productivity, those can be an immense source of distraction. So I just recently read Cal Newport's new book "Digital Minimalism" . Have you read that?

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:18
No. What did you think of it?

Michael Hyatt 38:20
Oh, highly recommended. Phenomenal book.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:23
Fantastic.

Michael Hyatt 38:24
But as a result of that, what I did was I took my very expensive iPhone Xs Max, which I paid over $1,000 for, over $1200 for, and I removed email, I removed Slack, I removed every social media application with the exception of Instagram. But through screen time, I limit my access to Instagram to 30 minutes a day. And I gave my phone to my wife. And I said, "I want you to enter a passcode for screen time so that I can't cheat the system."

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:55
I love it.

Michael Hyatt 38:56
So when I run out of Instagram time, I'm out of Instagram time. So the biggest hack, the biggest thing I struggle with and have to work on is keeping technology corralled and not taking over my life. And this is so hard, Scott, because all these tech companies are multi multi billion dollar conglomerates, whose one objective is to get you to use their devices and make it compulsive. Or get you to access their services, like in the case of Facebook, because their entire business model relies on that, you're the product. They're taking our attention collectively past, packaging it and selling it to the highest bidder advertisers. And so they're at war with our focus, with our attention. And they've got the benefit of being able to tap in and hack our bio circuitry because every time we check those services, we get a dopamine hit, a reinforcement that turns that into a compulsive behavior before long. So one of the best things I found is to find technology with technology and just take control of it. So even on my desktop apps, I use an app called "Freedom'. And you can find out more at freedom.to. Freedom is an application that limits your access to apps, and to websites for designated periods of time. And there's no way to defeat it, you can't cheat on the system without rebooting your computer. And what that does is gives me just enough friction to remind me of what my purpose is that, you know, go into... check, you know, Facebook compulsively for the 30th time today. No, you know, I'm in a deep work session. And I'm going to stay focused.

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:34
I absolutely love that. And really appreciate you going into detail on that too. And, again, thank you for such the range of areas that we have gone today. And the book that we've been mentioning again, and again, is "Free To Focus" and Michael, where can people get that book? And where can they learn more about you, as well?

Michael Hyatt 40:59
Thank you. Well, the book is available wherever books are sold, right? So it's on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, everywhere else. But I would suggest that people go to freetofocusbook.com because there we're making available a ton of free bonuses, some amazing stuff related to the book, it's all free, all you have to do is buy the book, wherever you want. Come back, submit your receipt there. And that will unlock all these free bonuses. So we're really trying to drive people to buying the book and to sharing it with their friends. For everything else related to me, you can find me at michaelhyatt.com (and that's Hyatt with a 'y' hyatt.com)

Scott Anthony Barlow 41:38
Amazing. Thank you, Michael. My wife will thank you for the advice as well, I'm sure. If not now, then in years to come. And I really appreciate you making the time and taking the time.

Michael Hyatt 41:50
Absolutely. Thank you, Scott, appreciate you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 41:53
We've got even more in store for you next week, right here on the Happen To Your Career podcast.

Elizabeth Mills 41:59
I'm very self critical. So unless it's really amazing, and we have this huge win, I'm not going to say anything at all to people. And that is something that I am working on is how to let people know the kind of how the sausage is made. But this is how this works. And that's part of the process to educate and help people understand what it is that I and my team actually do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 42:25
Oh, I'm so excited. I can't wait until you tune in. I'll see you right back here on hHappen To Your Career. Until then, I am out. Adios.

Scott Anthony Barlow 42:40
It helps so many people we did it... I'm sorry for the editing in advance. Just giving you bloopers, I guess sort of.

Scott Anthony Barlow 42:50
And it means we get to help you there. Starting over.

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Yes, You’re Making it Harder on Yourself: The Career Change Advice You Need to Hear

by

Ok, time to level with me.

Are you still absentmindedly clicking through indeed.com? Maybe LinkedIn or Glassdoor is your tool of choice? Is it because the work you do now isn’t fulfilling and you’ve finally come to the conclusion that “I need to make a change in my career”?

If you’re right on that edge of “something must be done” about this, you probably want to know what’s the most important thing I need to consider when making a career change?

Well, you’re in luck!

Why? Because we’ve asked hundreds of people who’ve made successful career pivots the same question after they’ve completed the journey:

What advice would you give someone who’s decided they want to make a career change?

What came back was surprising! It didn’t have anything to do with the best resume ever or the best tactic to market your skills or even the steps to take.

Nope! Instead, it turns out that all of them described making a career change as a journey and there are far more important advice to consider.

We’ve taken the advice from 6 successful career changers and put it into this article (below). You can also listen to all of it on the podcast here!

 MICHAL BALASS   |  REBECCA MADDOX  |  LOUISE MCNEE  |  LAURA MORRISON  |  DAVE STACHOWIAK  |  MATT TOY 

Michal: Executed a successful career change and start her own side photography business Rebecca: An attorney, who thought she might need to get out of law to be happy. Louise: Changed jobs 3 times thinking it would solve the problem, found what she wants in a completely different industry. Laura: Worked in Boston within sustainability. Then she had a baby and decided things needed to change. Dave: Started his own organization: Coaching for Leaders. Matt: Opened his own yoga business for men. Each of these powerhouse individuals shared their thoughts with us about figuring out what they want to do, tips and tools for enacting change, big picture ideas, and (of course) making a career change. After chatting with the group, we found three broader career change topics within the advice shared. What we’ve complied is essential advice for anyone looking to make a career change, no matter the stage of their journey. This advice is precious gold people, precious! Check it out:

LOVE YOURSELF (BUT IN WAYS THAT FUEL THE FIRE)

Matthew Toy

Did you know, people who focus on being happy are more successful than people who focus on being successful? It’s true; success isn’t the precursor to happiness.

Honing your daily routine to make yourself happy, boosts your ability to think creatively, to positively spin any bad interaction or mistake you make into a learning opportunity, and uncover new ways to solve issues at hand. All of which, are perfect for any work environment.

However, those superhero work skills don’t perform unless you’re happy. And if you’re not happy, you’re probably not taking care of yourself.

… what I loved about your course was the whole ‘master schedule’ idea. So, really looking down and saying what’s my schedule look like on a day to day, weekly, monthly, maybe even yearly basis and really figuring out, ok where am I losing time or where am I not being effective or where am I just sitting by myself thinking and analyzing and judging and blah, blah, blah. So that was really helpful to look at it and be like, ok cool, when I am going to be taking action and growing a business, am I still going to go to the gym? Am I still going to practice yoga? Am I still going to eat well? You know, you allocate time to all the things that keep the machine going, that keep, gas in the tank essentially…You need to take care of yourself. So, sleep, proper nutrition, lots of fruits and vegetables…the more that you can double down on, you know, your health and your wellness, the better. That will go back to the effectiveness and efficiency on how you run your business.

Matt Toy

As the owner of a business that teaches men yoga, Matt takes care of himself. He exercises, sleeps well, and eats well. And he has to! His dedication to health and wellness is part of what makes his narrative credible for his business. But there’s a huge bonus there: the energy Matt puts into taking care of himself is energy he’s able to put right back into his business.

So, do you take care of your health? If not, that’s first on the checklist. Taking care of your body gives you more energy and makes you feel better about yourself. And when you feel better, you’re more likely to do better – in everything.

Now, let’s talk about another way you might not be loving yourself:

I would say, you have to take the pressure off yourself and it’s easier said than done sometimes but…we all put the pressure on ourselves. I think in a lot of situations, it’s not other people putting the pressure on us, it’s us putting the pressure on ourselves. So, take the pressure off……I’ve now realized, that for me, career can’t be everything.

Louise McNee

How we think about and, talk to ourselves impacts our quality of life drastically. For instance, if we tell ourselves to expect perfection, or instant results, or a 0.01% error rate in our work, we feel horrible when we fail. And when we repeatedly fail at not being what we expect of ourselves, we begin to doubt everything we do and distrust our abilities. That leads into a depressing and self-limiting cycle of existence.

Living like that, isn’t healthy or happy. But, one way you can take some of pressure off yourself, is coming to terms with something Louise said: Career isn’t everything.

Making “career isn’t everything” manifest in your life, looks different person to person. However, people who don’t solely focus on career often spend their free-time engaging in a hobby, bonding with loved ones, or doing something they love while connecting with others.

Activities like the ones we just mentioned, recharge our batteries and spark happiness. They give our minds a break to connect dots and process. Meaning, you might have the “Eureka!” moment as to what you want your next job to be while you’re out hiking.

Advice We Need to Hear for Our Career Change
DON’T LOOK FOR A JOB; LOOK FOR HELP AND RELATIONSHIPS

Do you remember working in customer service during the holiday season when you needed that job in college? Yeah, we did that too…And experiences like that can easily make us believe that people are just the worst. But actually, people are great. And you need them to make your career change happen. Consider what Laura has to say:  

…it took me a few months to look for outside help and that was the thing that I needed…particularly as someone who has been successful, it’s hard to admit to myself, it was hard for me to say I couldn’t do it by myself, you know, I’m a smart person, I should be able to figure this out. But, as soon as I, you know, had my first career coaching experience it turned around my approach to finding a new job and it completely gave me the power back and the tools that I needed to do it. So, I think, you know, if you know exactly what you want to do, then you probably aren’t listening to this podcast, but if you don’t, just know there are a lot of tools and resources and people out there who can help you.

Laura Morrison

Laura speaks the truth, folks. It took her a moment of talking down her pride, but asking for help from others is what catapulted her into her career change journey.

It NEVERS hurts to ask and, in the midst of something like a career change, asking can get you pretty far. Listen to Rebecca:

…I say you owe it to yourself just to give it some time, see what you think…go try something…see what your options are. Or even go talk to somebody…reach out to someone, talk to friends, say, ‘hey, do you know anyone who does this sort of this thing? I think it’s interesting.’And, maybe meet up for coffee. Because a five minute conversation or even a fifteen minute conversation…saying, “Hi, I think what you do is amazing…I’m really curious what it means to do your job.’ I would say it’s worth it, it’s no pressure…and if it works out, that’s how most people find their jobs anyways.

Rebecca Maddox

We can’t tell you how invaluable coffee conversations are! Rebecca is so spot on when she says, “…that’s how most people find their jobs…” Asking someone about their job, that genuinely interests you, shows the person you’re ambitious, dedicated, and hungry. Talking over coffee about their job also endears you to them. And bonds like that, can come back with project or job offers you might not have received otherwise.

… I would recommend… to keep on having conversations. Don’t have conversations because you’re looking for another job. Have conversations with people who are doing things that are interesting because you’re interested in it. And, that’s going to open a whole world to you that you don’t know about because you’re not having conversations…I’m still connecting…You know, even now, where I’m very happy with my current position…I’m still having conversations…because I don’t know what circumstance is going to change which is going to spark another move or another desire for a career change…the important part of having conversations, is that it enlightens you about the possibilities.

Michal Balass

What Michal described is something everyone experiences sooner or later. If, in trying to change your career, you schmooze everyone, not much return is going to come back on your investment. But, if you chat with people who do things you want to know more about, your enthusiasm will be contagious. And, that will come back to bite you. In a good way.    

DON’T LOSE SIGHT OF THE BIG PICTURE

Don't Lose Sight of the Big Picture

…things do always work out

Michal Balass

We can’t help but agree Michal. Despite the setbacks and obstacles that come with changing careers, if you see it through, things will indeed work out. We all need that reminder, because some weeks, we only remember how hard we fell and not how much progress we made since the start of our journey.

Nobody will ever say changing your career is easy but, just about everyone will say it’s worth it. Take, for example, what Dave Stachowiak says:

…I’m not sure how this is all going to work long term. Yes I’m struggling this week or this month…but I said I was going to do this, so I’m going to keep doing it.

…One of the NBA players said, being a professional is about doing the things you love to do on the days you don’t feel like doing it….there are many moments like that in all of our careers.

Dave Stachowiak

Each of these sound bites from Dave are invaluable. Dave, who works with Dale Carnegie and stared his own organization and leadership academy, has even had doubts about his path. But, he told himself, keep going.

Dave also took inspiration from the NBA player, Julius Erving. Julius’s quote aptly reflects the amount of work and effort that goes into achieving a goal. Plus, it highlights importance of why meaningful work doesn’t sprout out of your fingertips after a week on the job.

Honing your abilities to create life-impacting, meaningful work can take decades. We’re serious; that’s how it should be. Learning to love yourself, asking for help, sincerely connecting with others, and honing in on the work you love, can take decades. Even Julius Erving recognized that which, is why he continued to work on his craft even when he didn’t feel it, to serve the bigger picture he had for himself. That all takes time.

Last but not least, we’ve got a few more golden nuggets from Rebecca we want you to read:

…Skills are transferable…And realize that there are those people in your life who say, ‘you get your job and you stick to it and that’s the one thing that you do’…that’s not the word we will live…it feels a little bit more like a game of chutes and ladders. So it’s a matter of where you shift. And ultimately, like, if people are telling you, “You’ve got the dream” but something doesn’t feel right, that’s fine. That’s fine. Trust that… Do the right thing.

Rebecca Maddox

Rebecca’s words hit home for us. Our experiences to find meaningful careers hasn’t been a straight shot. It’s definitely been more of a zigzag, obstacle course.

Despite playing Chutes and Ladders with our career moves, we also acknowledge at HTYC, that skills are transferable. That’s empowering when starting a new career path because it means you don’t start from scratch. You rather, move sideways and start your new career on a comparable rung level to the rung on the ladder you just came from.

Also, and this is so important, do trust your gut. Not trusting yourself can result in dead-end jobs, unfulfilling careers, or worse.

In short, these are the pieces of advice that helped each of these successful career changers:

  • Do the things that fuel you! Take care of yourself, physically and mentally, and focus on being happy to ensure that you’re putting in as much energy in as you put out. Otherwise, changing your career is going to fall flat, just like your energy level.
  • Ask people for help and for conversations. At the end of the day, connecting with people is how you get a job. Just make sure you’re actively seeking folks to chat with who do something that interests you.
  • Don’t forget the big picture. Don’t forget that things will take some time, and that you’ll have to work at it. But also remember, things will work out.

If you want even more help getting started figuring out the ideal career for you, join our free 8 Day Mini-Course to help you figure out the life and work you love or talk to our team about our coaching programs

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Matt Toy 00:01
You allocate time to all the things that keep the machine going, that keep, you know, gas in the tank, essentially.

Laura Morrison 00:08
Particularly as someone who has been successful, it's hard to admit to myself, it was hard for me to say I couldn't do it by myself.

Introduction 00:20
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what it does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:44
Welcome to the Happen To Your Career podcast. I'm Scott Anthony Barlow. This is the show where we share stories of how high achievers find career happiness and meaning. Our team, every single day, we get tons of questions about everything you can imagine to do with careers. What should I do differently on my applications to get the interviews that I want? How do I narrow down the list of stuff that I'm interested in to make into a career? How do I translate my skills into something that would be amazing for a job or career opportunity? And here's the thing, we absolutely love that we get all these questions. It's the reason why we do what we do. We'd love to be able to help. And at the same time, what we've learned is that most of the time when we get these questions, they're just barely scratching the surface of what you need to know, to make really big career changes, to design a career in a life that you love. And many of the things that you want if you're listening to this show right now. So we thought, okay, well, we asked many of our students, and our podcast guests, what advice would you give other people that want to make a really big career change to meaningful work? And we do that, at the end of many of our episodes, we do that when people go through our programs and our bootcamps, and they've made a huge change. And here's the thing, these are people that have been there, they've done that, they've made the journey. And we thought it would be really incredibly valuable to take the advice that each of these people have given when they're on the other side. And they know all the things that you need to do and how to do them and what they experienced and what worked and what didn't work. So in this particular episode, we've taken that advice from six different people, most of them students of ours, and we share the things that you wouldn't even think to ask about what it really takes to make a big career change.

Louise McNee 02:46
We all put the pressure on ourselves, I think in a lot of situations, there's not other people putting the pressure on us.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:51
That's Louise McNee, by the way, she made a move to a completely different industry, in this case, broadcasting that she had never worked in before and moved to a role that she absolutely loves.

Louise McNee 03:02
You have to take the pressure off yourself. And you have to think about not just the role, but the people, you've got to think about everything because I remember when I did the, you know, what does your ideal day look like? I felt like I was being a bit spoiled by saying certain things. You know, I want to be able to, you know, wake up whatever time in the morning I want to wake up and I want to be able to have a cup of tea in bed before I go to work, and really get down into those details because I find that it's not those details as such is not going to make you figure out what's going on, if you find a pattern in what you actually really need in your day to get, you know, through the day in the most positive, fulfilled way. So, you know, it's, like, take the pressure off, really get down into the detail. And one of the things to me was kind of realizing that potentially, which is so different from where I was, one of me, I come from making career everything. I've now realized that for me, career can't be everything.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:09
Louise's experience is interesting, because it's not that different from what many of us experience. We're adding pressure to ourselves that doesn't even need to be there. It's making it harder for us to make a real change in our lives. And then on top of that, many of us feel indulgent or she called it spoiled, if we really proclaim what we actually want. Now the thing that we've learned is if you never acknowledge what you really want, and you never ask for what you want, then you never actually get to what you want. Rebecca Maddox had a really similar experience.

Rebecca Maddox 04:42
I say you owe it to yourself. Just give it some time, give it... see what you think.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:48
By the way, Rebecca, was a burned out attorney who was also tired of life and the whole game that was being played in Washington DC and she made a pretty huge change to a completely different organization across the country that truly met her needs.

Rebecca Maddox 05:02
Go look into, like, see what your options are. Reach out to someone, talk to friend, and say, "hey can you even get paid does this sort of thing? I think it's interesting.” And maybe meet up for coffee, because a five minute conversation or even 15 minute conversation, saying, “Hi, I think what you do is amazing. I'm really curious when you do your job.” I would say it's worth it. It's no pressure. And if it works out, that's how most people find their jobs anyways. And if you're in that moment and thinking, "Geez, I'm so entrenched in where I am, like, moving to a different opportunity is, kind of, a joke." I would say, "Maybe you're right, there's a good chance that you're probably wrong, unless you're an extremely niche field." Because skills are transferable. And if you're in that moment, where you're realizing this is something that's really hitting me hard and hitting, like impacting those around me, right, like, it's when... it goes beyond just you and starts impacting those around you, like, you may be having that impact on those around you, and realize that, if there are those people in your life who say, "Get your job, and you stick to it. And that's the one thing that you do." That's not the world we live in. It's more a game of rather than, like, plant your roots and see how deep they go, you feel a little bit more like a game of chutes and ladders. So it's just a matter of where you shift. And ultimately, like if people are telling you, "You got the dream, but it's something doesn't feel right." That's fine. Trust that. And if people are angry, they'll come around. Especially if you're, like, you know this wrong, you're going to make yourself happy, it's going to make everyone else happy. And we've looked into it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:56
There's a particularly funny thing about the way meaningful careers work. What's the dream, I'm using air quotes, for one person is the next person's nightmare. And just staying in your job or role because it seems like a good job won't actually make that feeling go away. Maybe you've already had that realization, though, and you decide you're going to make a change, whether it's a new career for you, or maybe it's even starting your own thing. How do you decide where to spend your time and what's going to be valuable for your time?

Matt Toy 07:27
The more that you can double down on your health and your wellness, the better. That will go back to effectiveness and efficiency of how you run your business. And also just the decisions that you make.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:38
That's Matt Toy. And in his case, he was starting his own thing. It was a yoga studio, specifically for men. But he found that he was faced with the same thing that everybody does, when they're making a big change like this. We all only have 24 hours in a day. So how you use that time becomes even more important when you're already busy. And now you're adding even more by trying to make a career change or start something new on top of it all.

Matt Toy 08:07
So what I loved about your course was the whole master schedule. So really looking down and saying, what's my schedule look like on a day to day, weekly, monthly, maybe even yearly basis and really figuring out okay, where am I losing time? Or where am I not being effective? Or where am I just sitting by myself thinking and analyzing and judging and blah, blah, blah. So that was really helpful to look at it and be like, "Okay, cool. When I am going to be taking action and growing a business, am I still going to go to the gym? Am I still going to practice yoga? Am I still going to eat well?" You know, you allocate time to all the things that keep the machine going, that keep, you know, gas in the tank, essentially, because the downfall or the pitfall that I've seen, especially for younger people, you know, 20s, 30s is that they get all hyped up, they get an idea and they go full fledged, right. Whether or not it's the right idea doesn't matter, but they go full fledged, burn themselves out, just not losing those core principles while you build a business because it's going to be challenging when you build a business, there's going to be lots of unknowns, right. And that puts you in, a lot of times, an emotional state that's, like, a little bit frantic.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:19
Something else that Matt mentioned, is one thing that we see that's difficult for nearly everyone. For some reason, most of us think that we can do this thing all by ourselves, but honestly, these types of changes really rarely happen without the support of other people in this world.

Laura Morrison 09:39
Yeah, I think you know, it took me a few months to look for outside help. And that was the thing that I needed.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:46
Okay, you might remember Laura Morrison, she was back on episode 213 of the podcast. She was working in sustainability. She had a great job, but she'd pretty much topped out on growth with the organization and she had an 18 month old baby and knew that she may need to make a change, but she was getting pretty stuck.

Laura Morrison 10:04
I think, particularly as someone who has been successful, it's hard to admit to myself, it was hard for me to say I couldn't do it by myself. You know, I'm smart person, I should be able to figure this out. But as soon as I, you know, had my first career coaching experience, it completely turned around my approach to finding a new job. And it completely gave me the power back and the tools that I needed to do it. So I think, you know, if you know exactly what you want to do, well, you're probably not listening to this podcast. But if you don't, just know that there are a lot of tools and resources and people out there who can help you. And for me, that made all the difference.

Michal Balass 10:48
Be kind to yourself, be patient to yourself, and that things do always work out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:55
That's Michal Balass, her journey took over a year to make her career change. But here's the thing, if she would have rushed it, though, she might not have found the role that she's in now, or even started a side business in photography along the way.

Michal Balass 11:12
Keep on having conversations, don't have conversations because you're looking for another job, have conversations with people who are doing things that are interesting, because you're interested in it. And that's going to open a whole world to you that you don't know about because you're not having conversations. And I want to say that I'm a very introverted person, when I walk into a party, I'm not the center of it, and never was, but I can have these conversations now. And I am still connecting. And, you know, even now, where I'm very happy with my current position, and I'm not looking to do anything necessarily, in terms of leaving or anything of that nature, I'm still having conversations, I'm having conversations with other people at universities, I'm having conversations with people outside of my department learning about interesting things, because I don't know what circumstance is going to change, which is going to spark another move or another desire for a career change. And I think that's really important. The important part of having conversations is, about, that it enlightens you about the possibilities. And when you hear about somebody who's doing something that is so fantastically interesting to you, very inspiring, it keeps me going, it keeps me growing as a professional.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:41
Michal kept doing the really hard things. And in her case, this meant having conversations and building relationships with others, even though this was incredibly difficult for her at first. But she later learned that she actually enjoyed this. But there were many times where she had to do those things that she didn't want to do to get where she wanted to go. Now, Dave Stachowiak has found the exact same thing.

Dave Stachowiak 13:07
I said, "You know what? I'm not sure how this all gonna work long term. Yes, I'm struggling this week, or this month with putting my time and effort into this. But I said I was gonna do this. And so I'm going to keep doing it." And I love the quote, from... I forget which NBA player it was from. One of the NBA players said, "Being a professional is about doing the things you love to do on the days you don't feel like doing it." And that to me resonates because that's been my whole career, there's been days I've shown up for everything that I don't want to do, what I need to do that day, or what I've committed to do to someone that day, or to my clients or to my organization. And so while it was frustrating at times, that also was not something that was... that I hadn't navigated before. And I said, "I'm gonna keep doing this and just see what happens." And it's also helpful and this is where what your listeners here are doing, Scott, is listening to other perspectives and listening other people out there and listening to people say things like, "If you do anything that is meaningful in the world, it's going to take time, it's not going to be an overnight success. And nor should it be." In fact, today that's, you know, it's just part of the journey. And it's very much adapted and grown.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:25
Hey, I hope you have enjoyed this episode. It's chock-full of advice from people that have been there, done that, got the teaser, all the things that you probably wouldn't have thought would be so incredibly important. And if I didn't do this day after day and hadn't made any of these changes myself, I probably went to realize that either. So we've actually taken all of this advice, everything and put it on to a blog post that can be even more useful and we put a little extra into. We've got even more in store for you next week right here on the Happen To Your Career podcast.

Michael Hyatt 15:00
Nothing is way underrated in our culture. And yet when you think about it, when you're doing nothing, sometimes that's where you get the biggest breakthroughs of all. You have that creative thought that sponsor multimillion dollar idea. Or you figure out how to fix a relationship that's broken. But it takes that time of doing nothing to get those kind of breakthrough. So again, I'm after freedom. That's my vision.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:23
Yeah, all that plus plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. We'll see you then. Until then. Adios. I am out.

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The 9 Best Career Development Books + Two Hacks to Speed Through Your Reading List

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“Donde esta la biblioteca?”

When’s the last time you took a trip to the library? Many of us tore through books as children, but as jobs and obligations came with adulthood, we began abandoning this pastime. Besides the busyness we build around ourselves, today’s world of mindlessly watching Hulu and Netflix often pushes reading lists to the backburner.

If you’re looking for a new career, it’s time to reverse any non-reading trends in your life. There are many career development books that can expedite your career change process. Instead of sending you out to read every career advice book ever written, I want to tell you about the top 9 career development books available right now.

WHY SHOULD I READ CAREER DEVELOPMENT BOOKS?

My team and I often chat about full immersion. This strategy involves surrounding yourself with reminders, motivators, a support group—basically anything that keeps you feeling challenged and championed as you move toward your goal. In the past, we’ve shown you how full immersion helped Linnea jump four titles at once and how it helped me pay off $138,000 worth of debt. Following a full immersion strategy that incorporates books on career change can help you achieve your own success more quickly, too. The best career development books will not only provide practical tips and perspective, but they will also keep you motivated and focused on advancement toward your goal.

WHAT MAKES A GOOD CAREER DEVELOPMENT BOOK?

As you shop on Amazon.com, walk into brick-and-mortar bookstores, and visit audible.com for the best books for your career change, you will probably wonder how to identify the good career books from the bad.My best piece of advice? Get recommendations. Some career development books are very straightforward with things you can implement immediately on your resume, LinkedIn, or employer communication. Others share higher level networking tips and psychological tricks for deepening relationships quickly and genuinely. Some may provide practical advice for things indirectly connected to your career search like learning how to market yourself, how to better manage your money, or how to accomplish big dreams. And still, other career development books may simply be memoirs with keys to success that you can copycat.

THE 9 BEST CAREER DEVELOPMENT BOOKS AVAILABLE NOW

Recently, HTYC career coach Kelly and I chatted about our personal favorites on the career bookshelf. We made a list of our top 9 career development books. Keep reading for the list and summaries, or click play on the podcast player below to hear our conversation.

1. Becoming

Author: Michelle Obama

Why You’ll Love It: Michelle’s book is equal parts career guide, parent guide, and how to be a good human guide. She’s shared her life story with candor and hope, and along the way you learn networking tips through osmosis. Many of the actions Michelle takes as she pivots in her career mimic the tips we give clients.

2. Weird in a World That’s Not: A Career Guide for Misfits, F*ckups, and Failures

Author: Jennifer Romolini

Why You’ll Love It: Although many career development books lean either the dry, bulleted advice route or toward a compelling story that’s missing actionable steps, Romolini has crafted a book that combines the two. She leaves out the bizspeak buzzwords and instead tells her story in an empathetic and no-nonsense way. Her warmth and humor shine alongside her admissions to big mistakes and celebrations of big successes. Ultimately, she gives you permission to be a human who makes mistakes, has feelings, and learns a lot on the way to career happiness. To quote the back cover, “Weird in a World That’s Not will help you tap into your inner tenacity and find your path, no matter how offbeat you are.”

3. The New Rules of Work: The Modern Playbook for Navigating Your Career

Author: Alexandra Cavoulacos and Kathryn Minshew

Why You’ll Love It: Written by the President and CEO of The Muse, The New Rules of Work provides tips for the entire course of a career, from identifying your path, to using tactics to receiving and negotiating the job offer, to learning how to navigate the everyday work environment and advancing up the ladder. What the book lacks in depth it makes up for in breadth of career conversations. The content includes great practical pieces like helpful graphs and email samples. (Kathryn was on our podcast last year. You can listen to that episode here.)

4. How to Be Everything

Author: Emilie Wapnick

Why You’ll Love It: Emilie discusses the concept of the multipotentialite, a situation we find many of our clients in. Wondering what a multipotentialite is? To quote Emilie, “Having a lot of different interests, projects and curiosities doesn’t make you a “jack-of-all-trades, master of none.” Your endless curiosity doesn’t mean you are broken or flaky. What you are is a multipotentialite: someone with many interests and creative pursuits. And that is actually your biggest strength.” This book gives you permission to do what you want, even if it’s 5 different things taking place at the same time. (You can listen to our interview with Emilie here.)

5. Drive

Author: Daniel Pink

Why You’ll Love It: Drive restructures the way we think about motivation and purpose, including the levers that impact those ideas. Daniel presents scientific research to help you understand your own personal motivations better in a way that leads to increased success in your career and life. (Listen to Daniel on the HTYC podcast by clicking here.)

6. Total Money Makeover

Author: Dave Ramsey

Why You’ll Love It: Although this isn’t your typical career development book, money management is essential for every person, no matter their job situation. Dave shows you how to make your money work for you, which in turn, provides you with better opportunities. His plan helps you eliminate debt and worries. When this happens, you’ll find renewed energy for life and work. We all know we should create savings, but Dave actually teaches you how to successfully do that.

7. Purple Cow

Author: Seth Godin

Why You’ll Love It: This nontraditional career advice book forces you to look at the world through a very different lens. While its purpose seems to be about marketing, you could go in and replace every marketing word with career, and the concepts still play out perfectly. When you read Purple Cow, you’ll learn how to make yourself stand out in a sea of plain vanilla.

8. Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance

Author: Angela Duckworth

Why You’ll Love It: Angela says success isn’t about being the most naturally talented or most intellectual person in the room. No, it’s about something much more tangible and available to all of us—it’s grit. She removes the fear that you’ll never be good enough for what you want and instead helps you understand how to accomplish your wildest goals.

9. Stumbling on Happiness

Author: Daniel Gilbert

Why You’ll Love It: Daniel’s dry, witty humor turns his research findings from graphs and charts into an easy and insightful read on the psychology of happiness. Focused primarily on humans’ inability to accurately predict tomorrow, you’ll close the book with a greater grasp on your own desires and happiness.

TWO HACKS TO READ ALL THE BEST CAREER DEVELOPMENT BOOKS IN A SHORT AMOUNT OF TIME

Now that you have the top career books to add to this year’s reading list, you may be wondering how you’ll ever make it through them all. Allow me the pleasure of introducing you to two hacks to help you speed through your list and still get maximum value out of the content.

  1. Start listening to audiobooks on Audible.

Put away the idea that you have to be curled up on the couch on a rainy weekend in order to turn a few pages of a book. Instead, let the author read their own words to you while you work out, drive to work, or stand in line at a coffee shop. You can even adjust the speed the book is being read from a normal pace to a chipmunk-sounding speed read.

  1. Spend money on your books.

I know, I know. That’s not popular advice. Most people are searching for freebies in every direction, but if you really want to value your books, you need to have skin in the game. Your investment equals accountability. Trust me, you’ll barrel through way more books that you pay for than those that are given to you.

To hear the audiobook version of this blog post (AKA the accompanying podcast episode), click the play button.

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Kelly Poulson 00:04
So I have started to do audiobooks a little bit more so that when I have a long drive or when I’m at the gym or whatever it is, I have the ability, instead of me watching reruns on Netflix or whatever which is also easy for me to do, I’ve been listening to books much More.

Introduction 00:28
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:52
How many people put down, read more books as one of their goals and failed to read all but maybe two of those before the year ends? If you’ve ever had read more books on your list of things that you want to do, want to accomplish within the given year, then this is going to be an amazing episode for you. And you know, quite frankly, we all know that reading is important for many different reasons. It's important for our minds, it’s important for our life’s potential. There’s a huge amount of studies out there, linking everything from reading more fiction or more frequent fiction on a more of frequent basis to your, yeah, increases in empathy and emotional intelligence all the way to some studies that link potential income, right? But here’s the thing, often sitting down to actually do these, sitting down to actually read, getting move to the bottom of our to-do-list almost every single time, right. And, we know that, it can be relaxing, we know it can provide those moments of refuge from our busy schedules but it also takes a tunnel of mental energy and even bandwidth. But here’s the thing, what if I told you that, there are ways to do this, there are ways to make it much easier, there are ways to be able to make reading fit seamlessly into your life, without tons of tons of extra effort and that’s exactly what we get to cover in today’s episode. How to make it easy to read maybe even two or more books a month and still get everything else done? And by the way I have with me the perfect person to be able to help with that, none other than HTYC career coach Kelly Poulson. How are you, Kelly?

Kelly Poulson 02:35
I’m doing very well, Scott. Excited to have the conversation today.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:38
So here’s a little bit of a back story. First of all, if you want all of Kelly’s back story and how she has created the work that she loves with her own life and how she came about working with us on HTYC team and everything else, then you can actually go back in the archives and listen to her episode. However, the reason I wanted to chat with Kelly about this, it seems like inevitably every single time or close, maybe not every single time, but close to every time that you and I talk, books come up some places, some place along the line. Is that fair to say?

Kelly Poulson 03:13
I would agree with that. Yes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:14
She's nodding vigorously along with it. You can't see it, but emphatic yes. Plus, we’ve learned that well, I don’t know, we’ve exchange book list and all kinds of things. I have added immensely to my book, to my personal book list based on conversations that you and I have had. I was like “Oh my goodness. I have to read that one.” So this is an ongoing thing and both of us wanted to be able to help you if you have this as a goal for either this year or any upcoming year. How to make this actually possible for you and, but wait there’s more, make some recommendations on what are some of the top books for your career as well as some of our personal top books overall and maybe even what’s on our personal reading lists. Let’s dive into this. Here's a question for you, Kelly. I don’t think you and I have ever talked about this, but have you ever set goals around reading in any capacity for yourself before? I don't know that I had until, maybe a couple of years ago, but has that ever been a thing for you?

Kelly Poulson 04:18
I don’t think I had. Which is weird because I set them probably around every other aspect in the world.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:23
Yeah, that’s why I was wondering because we’ve had many other conversations about goals and all kinds of other areas. And I think that, although not everybody has dumbness, I think it becomes a thing, it becomes a new year’s resolution list sort of thing where you can, like, “Ah, you know what? I just want to read more but we haven’t made it a priority.” So, I did for the first time, do that, and this was two years ago. This was in 2017, I believe. Right for the first time I ever said any kind of reading goals or whatsoever and decided I wanted to read 24 books in a year, right? Which sounded massive to me at that time because although reading had been a big thing for my life, I spent several years growing this business and decided that I wasn’t that reader as much quite frankly during that time. And I knew that I’d have to think about how to go from reading like 2 or 3 books a year making a massive adjustment to reading 24 books in one year. Cause it used to be, I don’t know how it was for you growing up, but I used to read like sometimes a book every a couple of days, or sometimes even a book a day when I was a kid. What was it like for you? Where did reading start for you, Kelly?

Kelly Poulson 05:36
Gosh. I don’t know if I remember. I remember I used to devour books all summer. So whether that was trying to avoid being out in heat or whatever. I remember, and it’s not uncommon now even when I’m going on a vacation to polish all five or something like that. It’s like it’s such a part of when I’m off, I guess, that’s when I’m reading the most.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:56
When you’re away from the rest of, I don’t know, normal life, normal schedule?

Kelly Poulson 06:01
Right! Whatever that means.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:02
Yeah, whatever that means. Yeah, I totally agreed. So, one of the things I think that I want to make sure that we’re covering today is, one: How you’re integrating reading into your life because I think you and I know both do it in different ways or have done it in different ways, for sure. Just like you pointed out, that, hey, where you’re finding that you are reading the most or have the or maybe even have the ability to read the most is when you are aware from whatever the normal see is. Went from one extreme to the other and went from reading virtually no books after getting used to reading tons of books to flipping the switch and going backwards. So, this past year, let say 2018, I think I read, right around 50 books or so? Which may or may not sound like a big number, I have no concept, it was big for me going from nearly zero to 24 to 50. But curious, how frequently did you go through books?

Kelly Poulson 06:59
Yeah… All I can say is, I can always tell on a vacation. Whenever I go somewhere with those people I might actually, French joke: I always have a candle loaded, I, and another book maybe and maybe another sort of option on my person at any time usually, I feel very worried Gilmore and that if you were Gilmore girls. But I know I’m on vacation for sure it’s not uncommon, I will say, “Alright I’m going for X amount of days. I have to double the amount that I think I’ll read because it will be so infuriating if I don’t have enough for a while I'm away. The rest of the time it can really vary and it depends on how into a certain book I am or how busy, you know, the business is or, I also have the different switching when I’m listening to the books versus reading, there’s a different experience there in terms of how many simultaneously. So I’m just one of those few people that wouldn’t start a new one until I finish the one previously and I realize that it doesn’t serve me any longer.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:56
You know… That’s actually a great point, an incredibly great point. And I just want to repeat what you’ve said because I think people might miss out. So the number one thing is, just making sure that they’re available. Making sure that, if for you it sounds, like, you need the book and then you need the on-deck book and then you need whatever comes behind the on-deck book and then even some more after that to make sure that you’ve got the job done and that they’re available and you don’t run out for all intents of purposes and it sounds like such a small thing but I found that, that’s actually really really important. When I have small pockets of time to read in one way shape or perform it will talk about where to find those pockets here in just a little bit. If I don’t have that, all the tendency to do something else or could’ve chosen to be able to read and whatever it might be. Speaking of those small pockets, one of the biggest hacks that I’ve found, especially if you’re listening to this right now, I’m guessing that if you are listening to a podcast you probably enjoy consuming information or content or entertainment or whatever your category of choices through audio means. And that’s actually one of the biggest hacks that I’ve found personally. I used to read everything in a physical book and actually still really love reading physical books. But, I found that after I had kids and, I don’t know, started a business, and started travelling.... it became more difficult to do that. And instead, found that I can load up my, go to audible.com, and load up my Iphone with tons of books and do just like you’re talking about where I’ve get the book and I’ve got the on-deck book and then I get the book behind the on-deck book as well. So, I’m curious about that for you. Do you mostly read physical books or what works for you, what do you prefer?

Kelly Poulson 09:53
Mostly the, as you mentioned, when life changes, I notice that I was reading last the first year when I left my full time job where I was in the house and taking a train every day. So I have started to do audio books a little bit more so that when I have a long drive or when I’m at the gym or whatever it is, I have the ability, instead of me watching reruns on Netflix or whatever which is also easy for me to do, I’ve been listening to books much more. So I’m glad that I tried it because I think I tried it years ago, and didn’t like the English whoever the voiceover was. Did you turn for it? And then walked away and I’m glad I came back, because it certainly made a difference in my ability to learn.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:37
Yeah… I think you and I have had that conversation before, not in a recorded fashion where, narrator, especially for fiction books, can make such a difference in some ways.

Kelly Poulson 10:47
Absolutely.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:48
I found you’re just looking at that as a profession, like voiceover artists, some of the ones that do such an amazing job or actually really in demand and really incredibly well paid to. It just makes such a different for the book like, if you go, if you start out listening to Harry Potter, as an example, and that’s your standard, that’s kind of very very top. So, if you go and you listen to JK Rowlings and Harry Potter then they’d done a really nice job. And then you try and go and listen to some other type of fiction book and like, “Oh my goodness! This is, like, I thought this is what all the books were gonna be like” and it’s yeah. So maybe, don’t start there with the, you have listened to…

Kelly Poulson 11:28
My suggestions, if the author read it themselves, I typically like that or especially when it’s someone’s life story obviously it’s worth compelling coming from them, that was probably my most successful audible kickoff was when that was the case.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:41
That’s a really great point, actually I really love that too. If you are just starting to get into listening to books on audio and you want to pursue this as a hack for your life, I think it could be a great hack, that because you can just pull out your Iphone and, you know, on the way to work or on the train or wherever you happened to be, listen for 15 minutes or 20 minutes. But, make sure that if you’re apprehensive about it, maybe start with those author read books or something else along those lines. I don’t know if you do this ‘cause I don’t think we have this part of the conversation before but, do you speed up your listening times?

Kelly Poulson 12:24
I didn’t until I was half way through something, actually recently. And it was taking so long. And I think I scanned a lot so I can get through things quickly and I thought a kind of world am I still listening to this, love the book, don’t get me wrong. But, so then I played around with it ‘cause I think you do need to have… gradual, right. ‘Cause I think, at first, I went too fast and the voices sounded like a chipmunk and that’s not your intent. Now if you really wanna learn you don’t want me to speak through it. So I played around a little bit with the pace and I have started to do that more regularly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:57
Very cool. So, the backstory here; if you haven’t used an audio player to listen to books before, most of them allow you to choose to listen to it on different speed. So you can listen to it on normal, speed which would be 1x or, you know, 1.5x which would be, one and a half speed, or 2x and some even go up to 3x. The one’s like audible as an example. The voice was still sound similar it’ll just, so one sound like “Alvin and the chipmunks” necessarily. But, it will speed up the voice overall. And if you want to pursue this, this is probably the one thing, one of the biggest things that allowed me to read 50-ish books this past year instead of 24, is getting very used to listening to it on 2x or even 2.25 speed. And to your point Kelly, it takes a little bit of working up in finding your own preferences because just listening to the books and just accomplishing, you know, reading the book is not necessarily gonna be that useful for most people. Most people want the entertainment or education or what you’re gonna get at out of the book along with. So, what I would recommend if you’ve never done that before is start out on 1.5 or 1.25, something that's less than 2x speed but if you stop and think about it, if you can consume a book in 2x speed and that’s exactly half the time. So it literally takes less time to be able to go through a book and at this point I listened to about at least a book a week, is what I found on 2x speed. And it can get through most of them really really fast. But I wasn’t able to internalize the content and how I gradually worked up to that 2x speed, I had trouble doing that. It sounds like you’ve had your own preferences on that too.

Kelly Poulson 14:55
Yeah, 2x is intimidating. I'm not there yet. But now I have a new goal.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:59
Now you have reading goal, right?

Kelly Poulson 15:01
Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:01
First ever reading goal you heard it here first. Okay. So here’s another thing that is really incredibly useful that sounds counterintuitive, as well, is I found, and you can tell me your thoughts on these too because everybody is a little bit different but for the most part, when you’ve got stake in the game or when you’ve got invested interest then you’ve got a higher chance of following through if you have a particular goal and right now, we’re talking about readings, so, one way to create stake in the game for myself was buying an audiblement membership or buying the books outright so that I felt like I had something invested into it and that was really really incredibly helpful.

Kelly Poulson 15:42
Yeah. I don’t have an audible membership. Hopefully you’re gonna accept me for that. But, the accountability piece I get you right, like the financial investment similarity to team book clubs even though I know they’re very old school. If I commit to a book club, I’m the kind of person that I can’t just show up with a bottle of wine and pretend like I read it, like I will read every last page because that’s the commitment that I made.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:07
Yeah, absolutely! And I think that it’s going to be different for every individual person and typically for things like this, you’ve got four different categories that people fall into with where you feel accountability. By the way, great resource on that, go back to our episode with Gretchen Rubin where we talked about ‘The Four Tendencies’ and there’s lot of data and studies and research on these but Gretchen defined it so well into those different four categories or what motivates you or what causes you to feel accountable based on where you place importance and expectations. But otherwise though, you know, a value on what’s gonna work for yourself, if it’s going to work for you to join the book club, if it’s going to work for you to make your habit cost money in one way or another, then… by all means do it. And if you’re unsure, then experiment with a couple of things. Another thing that has going back and combining it together with the availability and then also making the habit cost money, that’s work really while for me, is being able to.. as soon as I hear about the book, just buy it. That has been something that has worked incredibly while for me. What I used to do, is I used to keep a big long list on evernote and then, maybe, I’d go back to the list and get really complicated. I'd prioritized it and now at this point particularly, if it.. I don’t know if you do this for fiction books but I definitely do it for non-fiction books, if I hear about it and I wanna read it, I just buy it and then there it’s waiting for me in my audio queue, so that it’s always available plus I have the extra incentive for me that I’ve spent money on it so I’m going to find the time, make the time to listen to it. How do you think about that, or what else do you do in order to feed your habit of reading? I would say you are in a different stage compared to what some people might be; some people are, like, trying to figure out how to read more. In your case, it’s more of a lifelong habit in a lot of ways and how did you continue to feed that habit?

Kelly Poulson 18:04
Well, it sounds like an old school Scott version. I have an amazon list that’s incredibly long but I don’t buy them when it happens, which is, you know, and then I also have a few tools: one of which is relatively known and I cannot remember the name of it, so hopefully I will and we can add it later. But basically it checks for availability on hoopla which is where I get library books through my local library. So it will tell me if something’s in my amazon and I’m about to buy it if it’s available for e-read there, it’s just makes extension that I added so then it tells me whenever it’s available, and that was in the last, it was probably in January reading related thing and has made huge difference because a lot of what I would’ve purchase exists out there in the library, and I just didn’t, wouldn’t have thought of it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:53
And that’s such a great point too. And yeah, if, so that’s an extension that works with hoopla? Is that just what I heard you say?

Kelly Poulson 19:00
Well, it does for me. But I think it works with most library systems. That happens to be the one that’s connected to my library.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:09
Cool. So, by the way, for everything that we’ve talked about and then links to, you know, links to all the resources that we’re talked about you can go to: happentoyourcareer.com/271 (cause this is episode 271) and everything that we’re talked about will be right there in a nice, easy to read format. But, hoopla overdrive there’s several out there as well that are very very useful too. Let’s say that you are not in the position where you want to or can spend the money or maybe that isn't that helpful for you. But still want to pursue this as a goal, then both those are pretty amazing options. Found that most libraries have all of the books. Not maybe, not all of them but a good portion of anything that want to read whether it’s, even if it’s more obscure they might still have one copy available.

Kelly Poulson 20:01
More than you realized.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:02
Way more. Yeah! So definitely utilize those two. We find that, especially for fiction books we check a lot of those out from the library, so we have like way too many on our audible account that are nonfiction and then we have tendency to listen to on car trips when we go as a family, we listen to whatever book it is that we’re excited about or the family has mentioned. And a lot of time for using overdrive which connects up to our local library. So, yeah… Great suggestions. See if you can find that Google extension, by the way.

Kelly Poulson 20:37
I'm sure I will, yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:38
Okay cool. We’ll link that up and make sure that you have that there too. That way, we can find what might be at your library as well. Here are quick recap of what we’ve covered to make it easier as well. So having those books on deck, making sure that they’re available and instead if you’re finding trouble actually, like, sitting down with the physical book or anything else along those lines, try listening to books instead. And, you know, using something like an audible account, finding what’s going to work for you and potentially even making your habit cost money or finding a way to make it more accountable for yourself, if you got this as a goal. And then, even if it doesn't cost money, being able to use, especially, for the availability, using things like hoopla or like overdrive or like other pieces of technology that can connect you to the books in one way or another. Whether it’s free three or library and all you have to have is a library card or whether it is something like audible. Okay! So we’ve got all of those pieces. Here’s what I’m curious about though. I’m curious about what you have encountered over the years, Kelly. That you would recommend for some of your top career books. I’ve got my own list here, we’ll talk about that in a minute here, but I’m super curious about, what have you found to be most useful for yourself or for other people for your career?

Kelly Poulson 22:04
Sure. So, one is a very recent and I wonder how people will received it as a career book so I recently finished Michelle Obama’s “Becoming” and that I thought when I think about the people that we work with regularly and the process that they used and how they come to flourish and in terms of what how they find what there’s most interested in and build that network and meet people, she did that on her book, in my opinion. So through her whole life you get to see all that worked for someone that’s so high profile and in with, you know, the background that she has, so I just figure with… for me, reading it thinking like “Oh, my clients’ still want one of these things.” That was just really cool to see in someone who we all know of, and how it worked effectively for her.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:53
Awesome. I have not read that.

Kelly Poulson 22:56
I recommend it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:57
Cool. What's next?

Kelly Poulson 22:59
I think this one was last year{23:00], “Weird in a World That’s Not” so I tend to gravitate towards authors who were very draft. Who, you know, it’s no beats speak or anything like that. I have a very variable tolerance for that kind of thing. So she, this woman, Jennifer Romolini, tells her story and how she patch things up in her career and how she’s learning different things and has a lot of practical advice but still a human being, and I think often when it comes to career books, she finds some matter very, either one into this spectrum than the other. They’re either all advice and there’s not a human being or they’re all story and there’s not anything that you can actually take, like actionable. So I think she did a very solid job of, you know, making it okay that you’re gonna batch something up and that, it doesn’t end it and here’s how you keep it and find the next thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:54
Very cool. Very cool. And number three on the Kelly list of top career books.

Kelly Poulson 24:02
So I would probably say the “The New Rules of Work” that’s by Kathryn and, what’s her name, Alex, the folks of Muse. They did a book that is broken into pieces so it’s all throughout the course of your career, so some of it is exercises where you gain insights in that kind of thing and tactics. And then, some of it is a little bit more about what’s in the world, how to successfully navigate things and then how to plan your next. So, I just think that’s probably more on the tactical side of things than stories though they give great examples and drafts and, you know, email samples that people can use. So I think that one, I’m a fan of it as well.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:41
Yeah. We had, by the way, we had if you want an additional reference to that. Back on episode (let’s try to look up here really quick) but we had Kathryn Minshew on, geez, probably about a year ago or so. You can go ahead and Google “The New Rules of Work: Happen To You Career” and it will pop right up there, Google Kathryn Minshew, spelled M-i-n-s-h-e-w and then Happen To Your Career, it will pop right up too. But, really what they did is they covered a lot very very broadly and then gave a lot of good tactics. They didn’t certainly go incredibly deep into every single one. So if you’re looking for a really deep guide on one particular area that’s probably not it, if you are looking for a good overview where you can reference different pieces and, you know, pull out a script or pull out something else, then I would say that’s a great one for that.

Kelly Poulson 25:45
I agree. I think that they went very broad, but helpful, for sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:49
Yeah. Very cool. Any others on your top career books list?

Kelly Poulson 25:54
I assure you I’m not picking people that you had on a podcast but I also know that you had, right, the author of “How to be Everything”

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:01
Yeah, Emilie. Emilie’s becomes a good friend over the last 4 or 5 years, I guess it’s been, I think I’ve known her for about 5 years. But yeah, that is a great book especially for people that are interested in many things or suspect they might be passionate about more than just one thing, right? What's the name of the book?

Kelly Poulson 26:22
“How to be Everything”. How to be Everything. She introduces the concepts of multipotentialites. And I had plenty of scenarios with clients who even hearing that that’s a true thing, that it exists and they’re not alone, really love that and her whole story about how you don’t have, it’s not as though, we’re not me it’s just anymore where you pick one job and that’s what you do for the next 20 or 30 years and that’s perfectly acceptable and you can do 5 different things, simultaneously, if that’s what lights you up. So I can get the permission and then she tells her story on how she navigated her career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:54
Yeah. Emilie is phenomenal. She’s been on the Happen to your Career podcast two times now. So she’s a repeat cast, in fact, and we have brought her back when she wrote the book and will absolutely recommend it. She is back in Episode 220, so you can go to: happentoyourcareer.com/220 and then it will pop right up, as well. Any others that you have on your mastery books for careers?

Kelly Poulson 27:24
Not necessarily. I mean, I think for the career piece a lot of it ends up being autobiographies or biographies can be really valuable too and we overlooked that sometimes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:34
Yeah. You know I found the exact same thing too and I was thinking about my own personal list and recommendations for careers, I actually, I didn’t put any autobiographies on the list but I have found those incredibly useful for that same purpose because everybody goes through, not the same journey, but the same milestones in the journey, if they’re really looking for fulfillment or more purpose or higher impact or career happiness, life happiness and all the things that go along with it, everybody has the sort that hit the same milestones along the way and have some of the same “aha”. It may happen completely different ways but I found that really very helpful too. So I’m glad you brought that up. And I’m curious if you’ve read any of these, as well. One of the books that I had on here is “Drive” by Daniel Pink, who we’ve also had the podcast actually, a while back, but he does such a masterful job, pulling together different pieces of data and research and putting it together in a way that is actually useful and entertaining because for most of us, reading through research is gonna be dry and boring, then quite frankly, not all of that helpful to pull out, you know, a couple little tiny nuggets that are gonna be really useful. So, Daniel goes through and he takes all that and puts it into a really 3 particular categories that just make a difference and move the needle in finding where your motivation and purpose and ultimately fulfillment comes from and what are the levels that impact that. So if you want to know more about that, absolutely put “Drive” on your list. Another one is, I think several of these would not think about, most people would not think about them as career books, “Total Money Makeover “ by Dave Ramsey, so most people look at that and go “that’s a finance book” however, have you read it by the way?

Kelly Poulson 29:27
I have not.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:28
So here’s the thing that I found, is that your finances are directly linked to your career in many many different ways, and you and I both know this. First of all, if you have other goals besides just to work , the amount of finances that your bringing in from you career, if that’s your main source of income, have a tendency to influence what you can do in the world because money is a tool and in many ways, most of us have some kind of need for it at a minimum but also for us to accomplish of the things, money becomes a new great tool to be able to make that happen. And what I found is that, if you can create more money for yourself, or you can understand how to completely remove what you might owe, in terms of debt or other things like that, and then make all of your money work for you, for lack of a better phrase, then it creates additional clear options for you. It takes away, and removes a lot of those situations for people feel like they’re stuck in certain scenarios or feel like “I can’t leave a job that I hate because I’m making a hundred and fifty thousand dollars and I’m worried about whether or not I’m gonna make a hundred and fifty thousand dollars in the next job” and it just eliminates the ton of that. And if you have a whole bunch of savings and you’ve done a nice job there and you don’t have any debt, you don’t owe anybody or anything, it just creates two things that I found for myself and my life and my family’s life, one, is it creates a whole bunch more options. Second thing is, it creates a whole bunch of additional energy that when I have a ton of debt, I didn’t realized I was being consumed, I didn’t realize there was tons of mental bandwidth and creative energy that was being consumed just by having those extra pressures there until it was gone, and then I was like “Oh! Oh! This is what life can be like.” So Total Money Makeover is a really great blueprint to remove any kind of debt and also be able to make those additional options work for you in your life and be able to create savings that all those we should do but don’t necessarily know how to do, or thinks it’s possible for ourselves. Another one, have you ever read “Purple Cow” by Seth Godin?

Kelly Poulson 31:45
I have not.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:46
Oh my goodness. I think you would enjoy this. It’s a short read, it’s a marketing book, it’s intended to be a marketing book, but I have found it to be so amazing for careers because it forces you to look at things through a different land. So, the pretext for it is, Seth Godin is talking about marketing and products and all the things like that, but you could just, every place has a marketing you could enter your career Into it or what you do, or advancement or anything about your career that you want to accelerate. So, he tells a story at the beginning of the book, where he and his family were driving through the countryside in the UK. And if you’ve ever been in the countryside in the UK, especially as you get up more North, it’s very grassy, there’s lot of cows, lots of sheep and, you know, some kind of rolling field in some ways. And, at first, he and his family were like “Hey! There’s a cow. Oh, there’s a cow.” And then they start seeing just tons of tons of cows, and at some point they are like “Yeah… This is.. Okay, we’ve seen it. We’ve seen one cow, they all look the same.” Alright, it’s not amazing anymore, it was pretty at first and it make some point that that’s really what life is like and also in what marketing is like or being able to stand out amongst others, everything kinda seems the sames after awhile, everything seems sort of vanilla or, you know, or chocolate-vanilla type choices in some ways. And he said, “You know what, you know what it would be really amazing, you know what people would talk about, you know what would move forward in life, would be, if we saw a purple cow. That would be something.” And, so he goes on to be able to showcase how do you actually stand out in a sea of what is normally, you know, vanilla. And I found that to be so incredibly effective for any in all areas of your career from getting new jobs to getting promoted within, just by anything you want to do. So, all the same concepts, although it's talked about in the marketing framework, are really helpful there. “Grit” what about this one? Have you read “Grit” from Angela Duckworth?

Kelly Poulson 33:55
I have. Yes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:55
Okay. Alright! What did you think? Obviously not on your top 5, but curious what you thought overall.

Kelly Poulson 34:02
Oh, it was good. I mean, I think there’s a lot.. there are similar time frames, I suppose. There are a lot of people riding about this topic with different tips on it. So I also, you know, like, read growth mindset and all these different things. So I feel like I appreciate every individual's slightly different tip on it. I remember I enjoyed it, I won’t tell you that I remember specifics cause I don’t.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:24
Okay, so here’s what I thought and I don’t think you even need to read the whole thing on this one to get the most useful pieces out of it. So, the full title by the way says it all: The Power of Passion and Perseverance. And she does such a great job helping you to understand what really makes a difference for being able to accomplish things that you want and become greedier and also what makes a difference in terms of developing passion within your work. A lot of people talk about passion in the context of finding passions, I kinda hate the word passion in some ways because it gets tossed around and is so loosely used like “Ahh.. If only I can find my passions” and…

Kelly Poulson 35:09
What does that even mean?

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:10
What does it even mean? Exactly! Exactly! So she breaks down all the scientific evidence around her, around passion and how it actually works. And it really is much more of a case of developing passion not finding it, like you go treasure hunting, doesn’t work that way. So, let’s put it together in a way that becomes much more useful if you’re reading it for those purposes. The last one is, there’s probably 2 or 3 books that could fit in here, “Stumbling on Happiness” have you read that one?

Kelly Poulson 35:41
I have not, but I've probably... there's so many books on happiness as well that I'm a fan of.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:45
Yeah, there are a lot out there. Okay. So the reason I could’ve said the couple of them in here is there are actually a variety of good books on happiness. A lot of them reference the same research, the same studies, a lot of it goes back to the founder of positive psychology whose name is Dr. Martin Seligman, and even though they all link back there a lot of them approached it in completely different ways. So one of my favorite was Stumbling on Happiness whose by psychologist, Daniel Gilbert, and if you listen to this book I think it’s so much better, it’s read by the author and he has just such a dry witty ironic sense of humor and I don’t think it comes across as well if you just read the book through the text. But when you listen to him, you’ll be like, it is a hilarious book on top of being incredibly useful for understanding what makes a difference in our day-to-day lives or happiness. So, looking for a book on understanding career happiness in particular but also overall happiness, that’s a great one that I’ve found. Okay! How about non-career books? And then also, what the, a masters of couple out here, what would you say didn’t make the career book list but you still think deserves an honorable mention just because it’s such a great book in one way or another?

Kelly Poulson 37:13
I intertwined them so much so it’s like mere impossible for me to even think about them differently. Well, I know what’s coming, didn’t make the list, right. But they part two, Atwood's “Handmaid’s Tale” it’s coming out this year, so I’m excited about that. I think that it would be an interesting one especially...

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:31
I’m not familiar with that. What is the…

Kelly Poulson 37:33
So Margaret Atwood's the woman who wrote Handmaid's Tale, which is now the ever extremely popular, I think award winning Hulu show.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:41
Oh, okay.

Kelly Poulson 37:42
And now this book is coming out and.. and then theory, I’m sure has nothing to do with the one of those, I’m sure she is the part of the Hulu thing, kind of like Game of Thrones, right? You don’t follow one to the other because they’re probably quite different from each other, so we’ll find out. So I’m excited about that one for sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:03
Alright, much anticipated then. Much Anticipated. For me, a couple that hadn’t made my career book list but I would’ve absolutely recommend, number one would be, and a lot of people have read this but if you haven’t or even if you wanna read this the second time, I think would be really useful: Outliers by Malcolm Gladwell and a lot of people I heard of like “The 10,000 hour rule” because that was the book that made that statement popular and it doesn’t come from, actually fun facts, doesn’t come from Malcolm Gladwell, it actually comes from the guy who researched it but Malcolm made it popular through that book. But it’s such a great book for understanding how success happens or can happen, and the point that I took away from that was like, in some other ways, that you can engineer your own success in the areas that you want to even though that wasn’t the entire intention of the book. The other one, I absolutely love the Lord of the.. I’m a total nerd this way, I love the “Lord of the Rings” series. I would always put that as an honorable mention in some place, personally. Actually I just re-read it with my kids.

Kelly Poulson 39:20
Yeah. Very cool.

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:21
Yeah, which I hadn’t read in a while so we went through the entire series and then we often won't let them watch the movies or anything until they’ve brought the book for maybe semi-obvious reasons if you enjoy reading that all. But, we just read that recently and I didn’t realize until going through it, this is probably the third time I’ve read that series, just how masterful it is in storytelling. And I have found that being able to tell great stories in one way or another is an incredibly useful career thing but also it just, I don’t know, probably makes it more enjoyable for you to be around with other people too or at least for them from their perspective. So..

Kelly Poulson 40:04
Absolutely.

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:04
Plus it’s just freaking awesome set of books, in general. Alright! So those are my list. Anything else that you would add that didn’t make the cut, any place else that you’re just like “Hey. It has to be on here, would not be complete.”?

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:19
It’s another.. It hasn’t existed yet. Ben Folds is coming out of the book.

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:26
Okay. Alright. Tell me about this because I love Ben Folds but I didn’t even realize that he was coming out of the book.

Kelly Poulson 40:32
Well see, I’m a total nerdy super fan and I think it’s September 2019. But it's his story. So I watched his Google Talk recently, and he was referencing it. It’s his story but I think what’s fascinating about him, he often does VIP things that it shows where you haven’t “asked me anything about music” section with him. And I’ve attended those and I actually walked out with all these notes thinking like “Oh my gosh! I need to write about this like it’s so inspirational.” And one of the things when I went to the last one was somebody asks him, you know, like, he can play the drums, obviously plays a piano, can sing, can write, and how does he identified in terms of his talents and his careers, and he said, I forget exactly, I’m seriously sort it was song writer first, drummers second, piano third. And I just kept thinking like “mindblown” how everyone in the world sees him as he’s very talented piano player and that’s third in his own thought process of, you know, what he’s meant to be doing, which I just thinks it’s really interesting ‘cause you just never really know what else is out there, who everyone in the world sees him as X but for them it’s really about Y.

Scott Anthony Barlow 41:38
That’s interesting. That’s super fascinating. I think in some ways that actually ties back to the multi-talented, multi-passionate concept that we’re talking about earlier with “How to be Everything” an Emilie Wapnick’s book, as well. Okay. So, now I’m excited for this too. And on that note, I’m gonna encourage you to develop your own list, you can take our recommendations but quite honestly, this entire episode is about: How do you read more for the things you really want to know about or enjoy or educate yourself on or being entertained by. So, take some of our tips, figure out what’s gonna work for you, experiment with them and then take some of our book recommendations and, again, develop your own. Go beyond that and find the one’s that you’re excited about because I found that more so of what we’ve just talked about, like finding stuff that you’re actually legitimately excited about or looking forward to, is probably even more powerful than any of the tips and hacks we’ve discussed as well.

Kelly Poulson 42:39
Absolutely.

Scott Anthony Barlow 42:39
Kelly, thank you so much for jumping on here and nerding out about books, for the last 35-40 minutes here. I really appreciate it. And you can find anything we’ve talked about including book recommendations even of few that, you know, will add to... we have on our list but we didn’t even discuss yet and some other one’s that we’re looking forward too as well, we’ll link all of those pieces up at happentoyoucareer.com/271, you’ll see all over there. And by the way, we have so much more coming in store for you, next week right here on the happen to your career podcast.

Lisa Lewis-Miller 43:18
Because if you're not willing to, or you're uncomfortable with having that kind of a conversation, you're never going to have people with who you can do coaching for it's going to be a business for you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 43:29
Alright, all that and more coming up right here on Happen To Your Career, next week and we’ve talked about tons of books, and if you love to read I’ve got one of the things that would be really incredibly valuable for you to read too. If you’re ready to create and live a life that really is unapologetically you and live more in your strengths and spend more of your time working in your strengths, check out our ultimate guide to using your strengths to get hired, find your signature strengths and do what you love and what you great at and how you can bring value to the rest of the world in your organizations that you’re working with. You can do it two different ways, we’ll make it super easy on you. One you can just text us, text MYSTRENGTHS to 44222 or you can visit hiredforstrengths.com. We’ll see over there. Alright! Until next week. I am out! Adios!

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5 Ways Author Jen Sincero Stays a Badass Every Day

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IMAGINE IF THE FIRST THOUGHT MILLIONS OF PEOPLE HAD WHEN YOU INTRODUCED YOURSELF WAS, “DAMN, WHAT A BADASS.”

For my friend [and NYT Bestselling Author] Jen, that’s a reality. When she sends an email, speaks at a conference, or hops on a podcast interview, she leaves everyone KNOWING she’s a badass, and she has this insane ability to multiply badasses all around her. It’s awesome.

Jen and I spoke on the phone a few weeks ago and we had YOU in mind. If you’ve been headed toward success but somewhere along the way found yourself banging your head against a wall and wondering how to move past barriers, Jen’s secrets for achieving badassery may just rock your world.

HIT THE SPIRITUAL GYM

If you want to stay strong, you go to the gym. If you want to stay motivated, you go to the spiritual gym.

Instead of treadmills, stationary bikes, rowing machines, and free weights, the spiritual gym is made up of books, podcasts, mantras, and playlists. It’s the quintessential list of what you need to stay motivated and keep chasing after goals. If you don’t set up your support system to stay positive as you move toward your career happiness, you’ll lose steam and settle (which is what over 80% of humans end up doing when it comes to work!).

YOU MUST GO TO THE SPIRITUAL GYM EVERY DAY TO STAY IN THE HEADSPACE TO MAKE SHIT HAPPEN.

You’ve heard us talk about this concept a lot, which is what we at HTYC refer to as full immersion. Full immersion acknowledges that there will be moments when your motivation wavers, but it doesn’t have to stay that way. Check out Jen’s full immersion techniques below.

HOW JEN WORKS OUT HER MIND MUSCLES

Everyone’s spiritual gym looks different. Only you can select the machines you need. To help you get started, we asked Jen to share what her personal spiritual gym looks like. Since she moved from making only $28K per year as a struggling writer to becoming a successful author with two NYT bestsellers, she has some credibility here.

Jen’s daily trip to the gym includes:

1. MEDITATION

Guided and personal meditation can keep you from beginning your day with a spinning ball of thoughts like: “I gotta reply to that email…Oh shoot—the grocery store pick-up! What if I don’t hit the project deadline next week? I really should post on Instagram more…Do I have time for breakfast? Mom is probably wondering why I haven’t called lately…Better check my email again before I get in my car.”

Instead, meditation helps you center yourself. You can use an app like Calm or Headspace with guided meditation created to help you rest, be present, and engage fully in your life. Or you can simply develop your own meditation practice where you repeat a motivational phrase and quiet your mind. Either approach should silence early morning negative thoughts.

2.  MUSIC

Have you ever been in the middle of a difficult strength training set when the beat drops and you suddenly get hit with this supernatural energy? Music is powerful for the body and the mind. Jen built herself a playlist that, in her words, “sends her on victory laps around her house every morning.”

If you’re a music person, find some time this week to make your Badass Beats playlist. When you feel your confidence starting to disappear, press play on that Kelly Clarkson song and remember, what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.

3. MASTERMINDING WITH FRIENDS

Everything’s better with buds. There’s no better accountability than a friend who will shame you into following through on your commitments.

Jen masterminds with her crew a couple times a week, updating on what she wants to do and how she’s accomplishing the steps it takes to find her personal happiness. These chats usually only last about 15 minutes, but the resulting encouragement lasts much longer.

4. HIKING

Pegging herself as a nature freak, Jen sets aside time to hike every week. The fresh air, bird calls, and feel of her boots on the dirt as she huffs it up a hill just do it for her. Every hike leaves her full of positive energy.

Your hobbies may look more like reading memoirs, painting sunsets, climbing rock walls, or mixing cocktails. Whatever leaves you with positive energy and a new excitement for life, make it a priority.

5. JOY CHECKS

For badasses, there’s no such thing as going through the motions. Jen makes sure to check in with her current state and future goals each day. She asks herself, “What is bringing me the most joy right now? What is restricting my joy?” and then changes her actions accordingly.

People change. Often. So these consistent check-ins allow her to alter plans and direction as early as possible.

PICK UP THE BADASS BATON

If there’s anything we’ve learned from Jen, it’s that badassery is hard work, but it’s much easier when you create a system that keeps it flowing. So what’s it going to look like for you? How will you create a positive feedback loop of motivation?

Maybe you need to set reminders on your phone to check your joy at 2 pm every day, schedule Facetime calls with your bff once a week, and log into Spotify to get a poppin’ playlist going. Whatever it is, the time is now.

To get you going on the right track, here’s some advice on getting started from Jen’s latest book, You Are a Badass Every Day:

“Start. Right. Now.

And here’s a tip: start small. Chunk your to-dos down into manageable bits of time or break your tasks up into friendly little baby steps instead of trying to get the entire thing one in one intimidating leap. Especially if what’s been dogging you is something you’ve been successfully putting off for a while. For example, if you’re struggling to commit to a meditation practice, sit in silence for seven little minutes a day, then after a while up it to eight minutes and then nine and then you’re on your way. If you’re writing a book, sit at your desk with your phone turned off, the internet disabled, armed guards at your door, and do not get up until you’ve written one brilliant paragraph. The next time you show up for work write two brilliant paragraphs, then up it to three, and then four, and then you’re on your way.

Motivation, commitment, focus—these are all muscles that, like any muscle, require strengthening. If you push yourself too hard right out of the gate, you’ll hurt yourself and walk in wide circles around that gym instead of going inside whenever you’re in the neighborhood. If you build slowly and steadily and chunk it down, not only do you save yourself some pain, but you’ll start noticing changes almost immediately. And there ain’t nothing that makes you show up, and keep showing up, like getting results.”

Find Jen’s book here and click the play button below to listen to our interview.

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Jen Sincero 00:01
So there's always something more screwed up about and there's always something that we can push ourselves to grow through and learn from, right? Earth is a big fat school.

Introduction 00:16
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:40
On today's episode we're not just talking about career happiness meeting, we're also talking about the art of badassery. My guest today is Jen Sincero. New York Times best selling author of "You Are a Badass". And Jen is sassy but also down to earth blunt approach to self help is both refreshing and hilarious. She's appeared on Comedy Central, the Dr. Oz show, New York Times, over a magazine. My own mother has demanded and suggested that she might disown me if we don't have her on the show. I'm pretty sure she was joking. But we still wanted to have her on for multiple other reasons anyways. And if you've never read any of her books, well buckle in for a good time.

Jen Sincero 01:27
There's all these morons out there making tons of money. Like, if they get to it, what's my problem? I mean, there's lots of very smart, wonderful people doing it. But seriously I was like, how hard could it be?

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:39
See what I mean? I'm so excited for you to listen to this episode. I'm sure it'll make you laugh, leave you feeling challenged and even get you to turn your radio dial to 80s rock. Does anybody turn a radio dial anymore? If you do, I know you'll be turning it. Keep listening. And then let's go kick some ass.

Jen Sincero 01:58
My whole journey into sort of self development started when I was living in a garage in my early 40s, super broke, super unamused that I was in my 40s and being such a loser. And I was a freelance writer at the time, and I decided that I really had to get my act together in the financial department. And so I started doing a lot of stuff that was very, out of the ordinary for me, I was super snarky about the whole self help world. But I forced myself to read every self help book I could get my hands on, go to money making seminars, hiring life coaches, like all stuff that I just rolled my eyes at previously. But when you're desperate, you do a lot of stuff that doesn't feel quite so natural to you. And lo and behold, it really worked. And I started working with a coach and started a new online business and basically tripled my income in a couple of months, which was like growing a third head for me, 'cause I have two, a second head. And yeah, it was so miraculous. And just I mean, because honestly, I had spent decades identifying as somebody who was really bad at making money. So for me, it literally was a miracle. And so in the process, I had read, as I said, every self help book under the sun. And because I'm a writer, I was like, "Man! I could write the crap out of a self help book, like where are the ones that are really funny and tell stories and use curse words" and all that stuff. So I decided to write my own. And for a couple of reasons, one, because I wanted, that was the sort of book I wanted to read that was a little bit more entertaining and a little bit more in your face. And I also really felt like there were so many people out there, like me, who wouldn't touch self development with a 10 foot pole. And as like, maybe if I make a kind of edgy, it will open this genre up to a lot more people who could really use the help.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:58
I couldn't find anything as I was reading through your books, necessarily. Was it actually desperation that caused you to pick up all those books? Because I get that you had said, "Hey, you know, I really didn't necessarily want to do this, but I did, anyways."

Jen Sincero 04:12
Oh, yeah. Total desperation. I just couldn't believe that I was like, come on, dude. There's all these morons out there making tons of money. Like, if they get to it, what's my problem? I mean, there's lots of very smart, wonderful people doing it. But seriously I was like, how hard could it be? I mean, I was in a one car garage, let's be clear here and not...

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:33
It was not a triple car garage.

Jen Sincero 04:36
It was not a triple car garage. It was not nicely renovated. Like it was a crap pole. And yet, I really realized that it wasn't going to happen doing it the way I was doing it. So I had to change some stuff around because I think that's what happens to a lot of us as we keep doing more of the same, we just work harder because that's what we've been taught, if you knew you got to work hard to make money. So I just kept working harder. So I was just more exhausted and making, like, you know, 10 bucks more a week.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:02
What do you think so many of us believe that to be true? I encounter that every single day in any forum everywhere, like, "all you gotta do is work harder, Jen. Like, just work hard." What do you think that is so pervasive?

Jen Sincero 05:16
I don't know. I think human beings get caught in loops of thought. And we don't question them. And this is the first nugget of transforming your life is becoming aware of your thought loops and being like, "Now I'm working my ass off, and I'm not getting richer." And also, if you think about that phrase for two seconds, you got to work hard to be rich, all rich people would be really tired. You know, it doesn't make any sense. And I will tell you, now that I am rich, I work about an eighth as hard as I used to when I was hustling my butt off to make money. So it's a lie people. I mean, you certainly do have to work hard sometimes. But that is not the recipe for changing your financial situation.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:02
And certainly not that alone, by any means.

Jen Sincero 06:04
Oh, yeah. I mean, working smarter is the key.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:07
One of the things that you discuss in your latest book, is the concept of, well, first of all, the entire concept of the book is many pieces to help you get there, wherever there is for you. And one of the concepts that you mentioned in there is this idea of motivational and spiritual gem. And I'm curious if you could tell us a little bit about that idea and that concept.

Jen Sincero 06:35
Yeah. So "You Are a Badass Every Day", which is the new book is more of like, it's this little this tiny, but mighty little...

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:43
Tiny but mighty, I like it.

Jen Sincero 06:44
Tiny but mighty. So my other books go much more in depth into the subconscious and how that works. And catching yourself on your thought loops, and really sort of dissecting on what's going on and how to turn it around and stuff like that. But "You Are a Badass Every Day" is more like going to this what I call the spiritual gym, which is, so you know what to do, you know that you have to watch your thoughts, words and beliefs, you know you have to be very diligent about training your focus on stuff that makes you strong instead of stuff that makes you feel like you want to jump out a window. You've got to be conscious of your energy, you got to be conscious of who you hang out with. You've got to listen to music that pumps you up, you gotta say, affirmations and meditate. And there's this all of these things that you can do to keep your muscle of motivation, and confidence and belief in awesomeness strong. So I think what happens a lot of times is people read a self help book, or go to a seminar, or take a course or hang out with really inspiring people and you know, you feel like you could go out and flip over a car and do anything. And then a couple days go by or a couple hours go by, and you start to slide back and you're like, "nah, go take my life next week."

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:02
I'll flip over that car later.

Jen Sincero 08:03
I'll flip over that car later.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:06
I love that concept as a whole the idea of a motivational or spiritual jam. And we call that the similar concept, full immersion where you're immersing yourself in an environment of success. And what I'm curious though is can you share with us a few different of those way? You've covered it, you've rattled off a few. But let's go into depth on a few different ways where people can create that environment or create that motivational and spiritual jam and make sure that is there on a much more consistent basis.

Jen Sincero 09:15
Okay, it all comes down to specifics. You can't just wing it, you have to know exactly what you're going to turn to stay strong. So that's the first little tidbit is what makes you feel mighty because for some people music doesn't do it. So for me music totally does it. So it's not just I'm gonna listen to the inspirational music. It's... I have a specific playlist that makes me feel like doing victory laps around my house.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:41
What's on that playlist? I must know.

Jen Sincero 09:43
Oh, you must know. I'm so old school. It's actually embarrassing. I was hanging out...

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:48
Oh no, it's even better.

Jen Sincero 09:49
Oh my god. So I listen to anything that happened past like 1986, I mean, huge Prince fan, huge Donna Summer fan, love AC DC, ZZ Top, Rolling Stones.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:04
Awesome.

Jen Sincero 10:04
You know, I'm in my 50s, Led Zeppelin.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:07
Love it.

Jen Sincero 10:07
Anyway. So music is a huge mood changer for me, it can completely take me out of one state and put me in another. I'm a big hiker, a big nature freak. So getting out in nature and, you know, hopping my way up a hill is a big one for me. I meditate as often as possible. When I was going through it, always every morning, I would read for at least 10 minutes some kind of self development book. And I think this one I feel like really, really is an important one, either reading or listening to something inspirational every morning because it reminds you of how powerful you truly are. And it also reminds you how easy transforming your life is, we've been taught that it's like this big, you know, you're going to be exhausted. And it's just adding more work to your already overwhelming life. And man, it really is about mind shift, you know, mindset and shifting your mindset So, and it's a hell of a lot easier than being in struggling, feeling hopeless and feeling stuck. So I really want to stress that point, it's not easy, you just got to do it. Listening to stuff, having a mastermind partner, meeting with somebody a couple times a week on the phone, where each of you talks for 15 minutes about what you're doing and staying accountable to each other, and anything else.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:30
The thing that struck, but I've got lots of them. However, I like the ones that you have mentioned here. And the thing that has struck me both in reading your books, and also at the same time just observing many people that have been successful in the areas that they want to be successful in, there isn't necessarily a perfect combination. It is more about what is the right combination for you. And even right now, too, as it can change and evolve as well.

Jen Sincero 11:58
Totally, that's such a good point. Totally.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:01
What is your current combination? Whatever you say. And if you're listening to this, you shouldn't run out there and immediately implement Jen's combination. But I'm super curious, about what combination, aside from the music and the amazingly awesome and pre 1986 play, what else is working for you right now?

Jen Sincero 12:19
I'm in such a good spot right now that I don't need the support of that so much anymore. So as you said, it changes as you go through phases. So I still meditate because I still, that is super important to me to stay in touch with my highest self and my intuition. I'm obsessed, and "You Are a Badass Every Day", I go much deeper into the fact that we are energetic creatures living in an energetic universe. And so I'm really diligent about walking that talk and being very in touch with the energy that I choose to connect within myself. So a lot of meditation, a lot of connecting with my fellow witches, as I like to call it, and masterminding with people who keep me in that zone help keep me strong that way. And then music and hiking, those are the two things. And being really conscious of what is bringing me joy and like what do I need to do with my life now that I'm at this new level that will bring me joy, and be of the biggest service to others, because that changes as we change. So just really keep checking in to see where I'm at now and what I feel supposed to be doing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:32
I love that concept of continually filtering in or filtering out those things that bring you joy or don't bring you joy. And I find that this can be the physical space, like, we literally in our garage, have a stacking deck of stuff to donate to a variety of places because we've decided those things, whatever they are, no longer bring us joy or meaning. Somehow came into our house and we don't really want them there because they don't bring us joy. So it can certainly be that way. But I think that there's other ways too and I'm curious if you can expand on that for everybody who's listening. What are some examples of things that or situations that might bring you joy versus not? What do you mean when you say that?

Jen Sincero 14:20
Again, it gets into specifics so people are just like, "I'm happy. I'm lonely. I don't have any energy." And you sort of leave it at that and that vagueness is gets you nowhere it's just like this squishy blurry place. So getting into specifics are the key to freedom. So I was like okay, so you know, the books are selling. I have this wonderful opportunity with the badass brand and what I'm doing, you know, what do I want to do next? Like what would really be fun? And that's okay. What brings me the most joy is hanging out with the people I love, laughing my butt off, and being creative and collaborating. So for me, I've been an entrepreneur for like 20 years and a writer. And those are very solitary endeavors. And so I got to start hanging out with the people I love more and making that my job. So I'm starting to write comedy with my friends, which is so much fun. So I'm still doing badass stuff. And I'm still speaking and writing the books, and I love, love, love all that. But for me, collaborating on comedy, I realized is something that is super fun. So I'm writing a TV show and a screenplay with two separate friends.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:34
That is amazing. And fun.

Jen Sincero 15:35
It's really fun. Yes, it is. You know, and then I picked some charities that are really important to me that I want to get even more involved with beyond just donating money. So I'm talking to the people who run those charities to see how I can further their causes. What else? Oh, I'm renovating a house, I just bought my first house and I have unleashed a design maniac that I did not know lived within me. So if you want to spend the rest of this time talking about bathroom tile, I'm totally in.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:05
Oh, we are in the same space. So that is very possible.

Jen Sincero 16:09
Oh, really?

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:09
Yes.

Jen Sincero 16:13
You know, but these are all very specific things. So I think you got to sit down and make a list of what brings me joy, is it travel? Is it creativity? Is it... would it be getting a new job? What is that new job look like? Do you need some new friends? What are their qualities? Fetting very clear, and then going out and making yourself create that because we are on this planet for a very short time and spending the four minutes that it takes to write down some specifics of what would better your life is time extremely well spent.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:43
You've mentioned becoming conscious of your energy and certainly paying attention to what brings you joy is one of the ways to do that. But I'm also curious, when you say being conscious of your energy, first of all, what do you really mean by that? And how can we do more of that?

Jen Sincero 17:00
Being conscious of your energy, for me really means getting, again, back to the joy, getting clear on what brings you joy. And especially if you're in the mode of transformation, which I'm sure everybody listening is, you know, what is it that you're trying to achieve? What is this next level that you're working to get to and embodying the energy of what that looks like? So walking around as if you already exist in that new space. So how do you carry yourself? What are the specifics of your new life look like? Who do you hang out with? How do you speak? What do you wear? What do you talk about? So getting into that energetic of the new reality that you are so excited to create so that then you raise your frequency to that new level. And you start to notice things that you were not previously noticing when you were at the lower level and accepting that environment as your reality. It's super unicorny what I'm talking about, but it totally works. And I'm obsessed with it, I really, if we can be diligent about that and play with it, you know, like, if that whole, sort of, water droplet in the ocean thing where we are the water droplet, we are in control of our little water droplet cells. But we are also part in the ocean. And so you are of yourself. And you're also have the entire universe. So when you shift your energy, just as when that water droplet drops in that ocean, you affect all of the energy in the universe, because you are part of that energy flow. So shifting your energy, shifts everything in the universe, and that is then how you manifest it on the physical plane.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:53
That is something that I have found to be true again, and again, I don't think I... 15 years ago or something.

Jen Sincero 18:59
Oh my god.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:00
I don't know if I would have said unicorny, but something similar. However, I have seen evidence of that again and again. And I'm curious, do you have a story of how that works? Or maybe an example of how that has worked? We witnessed it's with either somebody else or in your own life.

Jen Sincero 19:18
Oh my god, I see it over and over. But then someone's like, "do you have any good jokes?" I'm like, "yeah, I got a million." I can't think of a single one. Although I can think of one single one. I got one that I wrote about in my book of when I was working with my coach to make some damn money. And it's a long story. But basically, you know, she's like, you know, "You can double your rates. You can offer this new program, you can bla bla bla bla bla" so you're working on all of these things. And I was like, gosh, you know, I was coaching with this man, like a year ago, I was his coach. And we stopped working together and I hadn't heard from him in an entire year. I was like, "I wonder maybe I could reach out to him" because I was hell bent to make a certain amount of money that week, actually. And I was like, "I wonder if he'd be interested in working with me again. I don't even know where he is. I don't know how to contact him." I was still on the phone with my coach. And I was in a fever of intention, like I was making this happen, I was not screwing around anymore, I was stepping up into this whole other realm of possibility for myself. And I was really doing all the work all the time. So while I'm on the phone with her discussing, reaching out to him, I looked down at my email, and he has reached out to me. I have not heard from this man in one year, and he had reached out to me with an email that said, "Let's roll. I'm ready to work with you again. What do you charge in these days?

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:35
That was more than just a drop in the ocean.

Jen Sincero 20:40
So back into hot water. Yeah, it was... it made my hair stand up. It was amazing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:46
That's fantastic. We've seen some really very similar things too. You know, I'm thinking of one person that we worked with, his name was Ruchi. And he'd been in a situation where, you know, just not enjoying life, not enjoying his job, all kinds of different things. And fast forward after, he ended up getting to a place where he was very much enjoying work, enjoying life. He started really contributing to a charity in the Atlanta area, like a really, really great cause, that had to do with helping people in the local community. And he like, launched himself into that. And because he had all this newfound energy, then he was able to go and contribute and make all of these really great impacts in a really short period of time. And it was just interesting to see that because we're talking a period of like, five months. Yeah. And that's one of the things that I've observed, and I'm curious, your opinions on this. It seems like when people make big changes, big transformation in their lives, looking back, it always feels so short, or at least it has to me. And that's one of the comments that I've heard again, and again, but I'm curious, you know, how have you experienced that? And do you see some of the same things? What is that like in terms of reference of time that it takes for transformation? What have you found?

Jen Sincero 22:08
It's interesting, I've seen both. And I do believe that it has to do with we think we're in the energetic but deep down, we've still got a belief that it's not possible for us or we don't deserve it, or we're going to get in trouble. You know, so when you're in the mode of manifestation, and you're being really diligent about watching your energy, and it's just not happening, you've got to bust yourself. You know, that's why meditation is so good and guided meditations, especially that focus on whatever topic it is that you're, you know, presently obsessed with, because then you hear yourself, pull up that objection, you know what I mean? It's like, well, money flows to me easily and freely. If you're trying to change your finances, you're listening to some guided meditation about money. It's like, "No, it haven't. It never will." you know, like, it'll come up, it will come up. You will feel that energy. But if you are in the flow, oh, my gosh, I mean, that story I just told you, my goal was to make $10,000, I think it was a week. And I ended up making it in 24 hours, because, and I was making like, $28,000 a year. So that was, you know, a third of my annual income.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:27
We call it substantial.

Jen Sincero 23:29
Yes, thank you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:31
Very good. I don't know if you intended it this way. So I listened to your latest book on Audible. And parts of it felt very much like a guided meditation as I was listening. So I wasn't sure if part of that was the intention, or not necessarily, but I kept observing like, how much... it's like, oh, that's like a good two thirds of this feels like guided meditation in a good way.

Jen Sincero 23:55
Yeah, I told you I went more down unicorn late on this one. I've never done guided meditations in my other books, but because I'm so much more focused on the energy in this book, and so I got sticks some meditations for the people in here.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:08
Well, that was very cool and very helpful too, as I was both reading and doing the research knowing we were going to chat here. Now, I also in the same book, learned about Scruffy.

Jen Sincero 24:22
Oh, Scruffy.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:23
Oh, Scruffy. Can you tell us about Scruffy?

Jen Sincero 24:25
Sure. Scruffy was a stuffed animal that I had when I was a kid that this dog, that sort of looked like roadkill, I think somebody would want them at a fairy, he was like full of hay and all crappy and it was messy, and I named him Scruffy after our neighbors' West Highland terrier because he looked just like that dog. And one day I was hanging out with Scruffy and sort of brushing him or something, and I realized that he had these pointy ears and this little pink nose and a really long tail and all of a sudden, this toy that I had had for years and years and years and had known as a dog, I realized that Scruffy was a cat, he wasn't a dog. And I mean, I'm telling this story and it like, I could still get this like, strike of fear in my chest. It was like, "oh my goood". And it was so shocking. And so I compare this in the book to this is how it can be in our lives. Like, we just accept things as truth, because that's what we see around us. So if our parents tell us that you got to work really hard to make money, or the you know, relationships are never fun, you know, men or women suck, or will cheat on you, you know, that everybody in our family has a slow metabolism, so you can't possibly lose weight, whatever the truths are, that you've just been walking around, like, this is the way it is, like not ever even questioning. Then when you wake up and start doing this work, and, you know, do the first step of really being aware of what your thoughts, beliefs, and words are and being like, "Wait a second, are there some people who have happy relationships in this world?" Then you snap out of it, you're like, "Oh, my god, I have been subscribing to a belief system that not only doesn't work for me, but really is not true." And so that it's such a liberating thing. And it's essential if you want to change your life.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:25
I think one of my Scruffy as a cat moments, for me, one of those beliefs was around not being a finisher, is I think how I would describe. And part of the reason that I had made so many career changes over the years and on the outside looked very, very successful. Because each time I moved up, and you know, dollars paid, and all kinds of benefits and desirable jobs, and blah, blah, blah. But part of that was coming from a place of like starting things, and not believing that I can finish them. So instead jumping on to something else.

Jen Sincero 27:03
Interesting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:04
And that it took me a good 10 plus years to really reconcile with that. There's a cat here, and I could actually finish something. So I appreciated that story on many multiple levels.

Jen Sincero 27:16
Interesting. And then the thing that happens also, as in you're like, I have 10 years of proof that I'm not a finisher. So you know, for me, I had the same thing, like I have 40 years of proof that I suck at making money. So really... is you have to have the audacity to go against the quote unquote, truth, and choose something else.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:34
Yeah, absolutely. What do you think for you, aside from discovering that your stuffed animal that you had journeyed with was now no longer the dog that you knew you had to be, what do you think one of those biggest moments was for you? I know you talk about a variety of them in all of your books. But what stands out to?

Jen Sincero 27:54
You know, one moment I had when I was forcing myself to go all of these financial seminars, read the books and coach and blah, blah, blah, was at a seminar, and this coach was on the stage talking about a new coaching program that he was offering. And it was $85,000 to work with him for a year privately. And that was like, you have to fly to the bone and back to work with me. I was like, "What does that even mean? That's like house money. Like, what is that?" There's no way like, there is no way that my $28,000 a year, even take in that information. But because I was on this journey, and I was like, okay, anything is possible, you have to step up. And so I was like, I'm gonna work with this guy, I am going to figure out how to pay him $85,000. So instead of going to my immediate need of response, which was, "I can't afford that" to... my mantra at the time was "money flows to me easily and freely." I said it all the time. Every time I wanted to say, "I can't afford it", I forced myself to say "money flows to me easily and freely." So that's what I said. And by opening myself up, just the act of opening myself up to that possibility, it brought up like from the bottom of the sea color covered in seaweed and slime, like my deepest, deepest reason that I had never noticed before and myself about why Jen Sincero cannot make money or get rich. I had this flash of visual vision of my dad standing there with his hands in his pockets looking at the ground really sad. It was so clear. And in that flash realize, I can't get rich because one of the ways my dad shows me love is to give me 20 bucks every once in a while. And if I don't need his money, I don't need his love and I am basically stabbing him in the heart. And it was so profound, and I really feel like a lot of people have that one where they don't want to outshine their parents or the people they love so they stay small. And that really was a life changer for me.

Jen Sincero 29:10
It's really, I find it fascinating like how quickly our brains can go to, my dad's not gonna be able to do that. And I'm going to be stabbing him in the heart, which, you know, said out loud, afterwards, of course it can make sense that that's not going to happen. But it's fascinating that we do that every day in many different cases, if we're not careful to ourselves, if we're not aware of what is going on behind the scenes or subconsciously, or those underlying beliefs, or those mental barriers that are left unaddressed. So one of the things that I have heard you say, again, and again and again, is by putting yourself in those situations, or by forcing yourself in one way or another, to bring in other beliefs or to say mantras, or any number of these things can bring those up or cause you to have this wrestle with those, when you don't even know that those were underneath the surface in that way. So, absolutely love that. Other ways?

Jen Sincero 31:04
Yeah, I mean, the other ways, it really, it's all about getting uncomfortable. So if you're not uncomfortable or scared to take, like, how uncomfortable was that to like, even consider $85,000. Like that was, like, throw up uncomfortable. So for everybody, it's different. But if you don't get out there and do stuff that really pushes against some kind of resistance for you, you're not going to have these epiphanies because you are staying in your known comfortable world and staying with what's familiar, you got to push yourself out to the unfamiliar, you've got to ask that person out that's quote, unquote, out of your league, or go to a seminar that you'd be horrified if your friends busted, you at or say affirmations that feel completely weird and out of reach for you, or, you know, hang out with people who are doing much better than you, whatever it is, there's so many things you can do. I call it, it's like, two sides of the same coin, excitement and terror. And that's what you're looking for that we're not looking for the kind of fear of like throwing yourself in front of a bus would bring up but it's that terror, and also that the flip side of it is "Oh my god, wouldn't that be amazing? Wouldn't that be amazing if I had a coach that I paid $85,000 for that?" I found that kind of money for holy crap, like, who would I be in that moment? So as terrifying as it is exciting, that's the sweet spot that you're looking for.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:30
Absolutely love that. I also know that many of your books are about that mode of transformation, or about, shall we say, I don't know, getting what's on the other side of that mode of transformation. I'm not totally sure how you would describe that necessarily, overall. But I'm really, really curious for you, after you have gotten to the goal or after you have achieved the thing or after you have been envisioning whatever it might be for many, many years, what has happened for you after you have gotten there? And after you have achieved that? What does that look like for you individually? Do you immediately move on to the next thing? Do you have, I don't know, celebration effort? Help me understand. And here's the reason why I'm asking. This is even though many people are here, listening, because they're in that mode of transformation to this show, I'm curious for myself a little bit, because I found many, many times when I've reached like really big things that most people would consider impossible, then I personally will go through a period where it's like, this is awesome. And then sometimes it's a "Now what?" afterwards. It's over many years, I've reconciled with that part of it in different ways before this next thing, so I'm curious, what that's like for you?

Jen Sincero 33:46
Well, it's the same. And I think, you know, the process of being alive is the process of growing. Just look in nature, like everything keeps growing until it dies. So we're the same. So once you get to a new exciting level, I also by the way, totally believe in celebrating and I'm a very skilled celebrator, then it becomes your new normal, right? So it becomes your new normal. So it's not something that you're like high fiving about everyday because it's just who you are now and it's wonderful. And then you start to look around and be like "okay, now what?" and there's... have you ever heard that expression, "new level new devil"?

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:26
I have not. I feel like I should have, however, love it.

Jen Sincero 34:30
So there's always something more screwed up about and there's always something that we can push ourselves to grow through and learn from, right? Earth is a big fat school. So you conquer one demon and then you're like, alright, but I could really upgrade my situation in this sector of my life. So I think that absolutely, we look around and we have "now what" and the universe always provides an award for you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:59
Whether you want it or not...

Jen Sincero 35:00
Don't worry. Yes, exactly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:02
It's the universal guarantee, I suppose. Well, I appreciate that on many different levels. And I appreciate you taking the time and making the time here. And this has been a ton of fun. And the new book, by the way, is "You Are a Badass Every Day: How to Keep Your Motivation Strong, Your Vibe High, and Your Quest for Transformation Unstoppable." Where can people get that? Where can people buy many, many copies of that? And where can they learn more about you?

Jen Sincero 35:30
Well, they can do it all at the same place. If you go to my website, you can actually get to my website by either going to youareabadass.com, or jensincero.com, they both lead to the same place. And it's jensincero.com. It's like the word sincere with an O on the end.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:51
Perfect. Well head on over there. And I have... I've read the book, enjoyed it immensely and even more enjoyed having you in person. So I really, really appreciate it. And thank you so much, Jen.

Jen Sincero 36:02
Thank you so much. This was excellent. I really appreciate it. And say hi to your mom for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:08
Hey, I hope you enjoyed listening to Jen, as much as I enjoyed chatting with her. She definitely seems to carry an aura of badassery around her. And I believe that the idea of the spiritual gym can get you headed in the right direction on achieving your goals, whatever they may be. And by the way, if you aren't sure where you're going with your career, but you know that you're dissatisfied with where you are, my team at Happen To Your Career would love to help. You can schedule a call with one of our team or one of our career coaches and we can start working together to help you discover your signature strengths and more importantly put them to use to acquire unique career happiness for you. Learn more about our signature coaching program at happentoyourcareer.com and click on signature coaching at the top of the page under resources for career changers. Thanks for listening, so much, today's episode on 5 Ways to Stay a Badass Every Day. Join us next week for an entirely different episode on career happiness. Here's what's coming up for you. Next week on the Happen To Your Career podcast.

Michelle Jones 37:10
I would hear them over and over and say how frustrated they were and angry, even, that no one had asked them that before. Now, they're like, well, now, I don't know we're at the end, we're about to graduate, we have a lot of debt. You know, maybe I would have actually majored in something else or gone to a different college or done something else along the way. I had someone ask me that earlier.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:30
That's right. It's a brand new idea, concept and way of education. One that I think is much more useful to many of the people in this world. But all that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. And by the way, too, if you haven't already joined our figure it out mini courses to get you started and get you clear on what you want in your new career, just text HAPPEN to 44222. Or visit figureitout.co that's figureitout.co it'll ask you for your email and name and then it will send you the very first day shortly afterwards. Very first lesson. You'll get a lesson each day for eight days to begin heading down the road of what you really want. We'll see you next week. Right here. As always. Adios. I am out!

Jen Sincero 38:31
I'm so good. How can your mom's not with us?

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:34
Oh my goodness. You know what? Actually, you're gonna get me out of trouble. See, this is gonna be an amazing, now, we just downgraded it slightly.

Jen Sincero 38:44
Oh no. What a way to start.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:46
Oh, no. This is the tone that we are starting out on. Mom, this one's for you either way, whether you're not here. Well, I am excited though. Regardless of the number of times my mom has said, "You should get Jen on the show."

Jen Sincero 39:00
Oh, I love her.

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:03
Yeah. I absolutely will. I'm leaving that part in at the end.

Jen Sincero 39:08
Okay.

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:09
Fantastic.

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3 Creative and Strategic Ways to Show Your Strengths to Interviewers

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Everywhere you look these days, you can find articles sharing why focusing on your strengths is more valuable than improving your weaknesses. Using your signature strengths in your role means you can be energized instead of drained, engaged instead of bored, and successful instead of struggling.

When it comes down to it, working in your strengths can completely transform your work day, your career, and your entire life!

But once you recognize this fact and identify your unique strengths, you may hit a roadblock. How do you actually land a career that allows you to utilize the strengths that will make you happy and help you flourish?

“I’M THE PERFECT FIT FOR THIS JOB!”

I remember the days before I started Happen To Your Career when I’d look through job postings for new opportunities. Every once in a while, I’d stumble across a description that left me internally exclaiming:

“They need me! It’s like they wrote this description based on my exact desires and strengths! I’m a shoe-in!”

Can you relate? Maybe you’ve had one or many moments where you felt as though you were the PERFECT fit for a job opening. But then there’s a problem…how do you get the employer to see you’re the perfect fit? What do you say and do to show that you are the answer to their needs?

Being the perfect fit and helping an interviewer perceive you as the perfect fit are two very different things. Many interviewers won’t directly ask you to list your strengths and even if they do, your answer may not stand out from everyone else’s. Before your next interview, you must figure out your strategy for showing potential employers who you are and how your strengths will bring value to the organization.

SERVE UP YOUR STRENGTHS ON A SILVER PLATTER

Whether you hop on the phone for a quick HR screening or sit down face-to-face with your potential boss, you want to finish every interview knowing you’ve communicated why you are a good fit for the role. (Side note: If you don’t believe you are a good fit—meaning your signature strengths don’t align with the company and role—you probably won’t be happy even if you get the offer!) Helping an interviewer perceive you as a good fit involves revealing and reinforcing your signature strengths throughout your time together. This can be accomplished through three main tactics:

1. SAY WHAT YOU LOVE

Have you ever noticed that when you say you love doing something, people assume you are good at that thing?

For instance, if someone says they love to ice skate, it’s a natural tendency to assume they are gifted at ice skating. You don’t picture someone who loves ice skating flailing their arms about until they bust their ass on the cold ice. No, you picture someone gliding smoothly along the surface, balanced and experienced.

It’s the same thing with strengths. If you say, “I love to connect with customers in a way that allows me to identify issues and create custom solutions,” your interviewer will automatically believe you are gifted at that particular skill. Unintentionally and subconsciously, they will assign positive traits associated with problem-solving and communication to you.

 2. SHARE YOUR STORY

Don’t stop with saying what you love or hammering off a bulleted list of your strengths. Instead, prepare to share a story that reinforces each strength. You can identify and practice telling these stories to your friend or spouse before you begin your interviews to make sure you are clearly articulating your abilities through your story.

For example, using the strength identified above, you might say, “Let me tell you about a time I developed a creative solution that transformed an angry customer into one of our biggest fans. The angry customer, Bill, had requested customizations to his sales platform and the web team failed to notify him that customizations take up to six months for completion. I called Bill, asked him to explain his business to me, and discussed the why behind his specific needs. As Bill talked, I realized his business needs were parallel with a client we had partnered with the previous spring. Bill’s requests were different, but his purpose was the same. I explained to Bill that his requests would take more time to build, but if he was okay with utilizing a previously built interface, we could refund his customization fee and copy over the code and update his platform to work how he needed within one week. Bill was thrilled! After the changes were complete, he posted on social media that he’d be one of our customers for life. The solution I created not only removed his anger but made him one of our best and most loyal customers.”

This story helps your interviewers see your strengths in action, and they are more likely to remember an anecdote than a simple claim about what you can do.

3. STEP INTO YOUR NEW CONTEXT

Once you’ve shared what you love to do and shown how you’ve used your strengths in the past, paint a picture of your strengths at work in your potential new company. This will move your interviewers from just admiring your strengths to actually imagining you in the role.

Let’s say you’re interviewing for a role as a process improvement specialist for a medical center. Sticking with the story from above, here’s what this step might look like:

“In the same way that I effectively communicated and created a unique solution that transformed Bill from an upset customer to our biggest fan, I could quickly build rapport with the nurses, doctors, and administrators. I know you mentioned it can be difficult to get cooperation from these people, so I would use the same strengths that I used to help Bill see he could trust me. Once they began to share the issues they encountered on a daily basis, I could develop budget-friendly alternatives that cut non-value-added measures and capitalize on current resources. Viewing the medical team as my customer, I would solve specific problems in a way that meets business goals and leaves the direct care team happy.”

Preparing these answers before your interview gives you more control over your interviewers’ perception of who you are. Once you’ve defined what you love to do, shared your story of utilizing your strengths, and painted a picture of how you fit into their specific context, it will be almost impossible for them to forget you.

On our latest podcast episode, we share a live coaching call with Bree Hunter, an Aussie looking to move from her reactive and draining job to one that values her proactive, future-oriented strengths. Our call will give you an idea of what it’s like to work with one of our career coaches, plus give you a greater understanding of how to show your strengths and what to do with your weaknesses. Click the play button below to listen now!

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Bree Hunter 00:03
And I think that's what I really enjoyed about the role I'm interview for, is I was so energized by it, you know, I'm planning something positive for the community to utilize in the future. And that was really the interesting.

Introduction 00:20
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:44
Every single week, we get a subtle really similar question again and again, and one of those questions in particular is, how do I use my strengths to get hired? Well, it turns out that this isn't necessarily an easy answer and it’s an extended answer because it starts with, you have to really understand your strengths in depth. And we realize that many people all over the world, well, we think we understand our strengths and even as we have worked with people that are really highly self aware, we know that we can get much more granular, much deeper level to get nearly anybody better understanding of their strengths. And when we do that, then that gives you some really powerful information to start with. But then more importantly than that is, when you understand how to apply your strengths that can completely change the world in a lot of different way, starting with more confidence in you know one or more particular areas and ranging to feeling of higher happiness, because we know from some really great work that Gallup has done and several other organizations that, when you spend even as little as one to two more hours per day with working or spending time utilizing your strengths, then that is associated with things like higher productivity, higher feeling of happiness and many other really great things. But that's not what this is all about. What this is about is to be able to really understand how to utilize your strength to get hired. We first have to understand your strengths, only then, can we start applying it to whatever it is that you want to accomplish. So we had been experimenting with how do we actually help people understand the power of this for quite a while and we were entirely sure to be quite frank with you and then we realized well, let's show them. Let them listen to a conversation where someone is actually discovering their strengths and they go and put those to use immediately. So that's what we're going to do. In fact, you're going to get to be a fly on the wall. In actual coaching conversation, and this is with Bree Hunter. Bree Hunter, lives in Tasmania, Australia, and she had been in a role that was pretty great role but no longer really fit in what she wanted and especially going forward in the future. And it was really trying to understand how she's leverage for strengths and understand her strengths in a way to make sure that she's going after what she really wants and feels more happy more often and through this conversation, I want you to pay attention to it and listen to how we get to a much deeper level and then as it goes on, listen for how we actually utilize that in a way that she can benefit from it immediately, starting with some interviews, that she has coming up. Okay. There's so much built into this one single conversation and I want you to take a listen so watch for all those pieces and so much more, here's my conversation and coaching session you could get to fly on the wall with Bree.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:22
Bree it’s Scott from Happen To Your Career. How are you doing?

Bree Hunter 04:25
Hi Scott, how are you?

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:28
I am doing a really, really well. It's been a good couple of months actually. How's it going on your...

Bree Hunter 04:35
Oh, that excites. Pretty good. Got a job interview later today.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:41
I saw that.

Bree Hunter 04:41
Yeah, and just the last several months really been doing a bit of soul searching and came across your website and your podcasts. And that's been really helpful amongst a few other tools I've pulled together. So yeah, I really enjoyed the StrengthsFinder test. I found that really useful to sort of pull a few things together and things that you're kind of already feeling but haven't really been able to articulate or put into some sort of framework.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:11
Yeah. Very cool. And if I have this up here correctly, it looks like your strengths themes from StrengthsFinder where, Learner, Harmony, Restorative, Positivity and Individualization. Does that sound right?

Bree Hunter 05:26
That's right. Yep.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:27
Very cool. So then the other thing that I saw from the email that you sent a little bit earlier today, or let's see here, was that you're hoping to get a little bit better understanding of how you can actually leverage these. So now that you have the ability to articulate them a little bit differently, how do you actually use these things. And then it sounds like currently, you are... well, I mean, obviously, you got another job interview coming up here. But your past role or current role feels like it is not the right fit for several reasons. And you talked about workplace culture. And did you use the term busy work? Is that what it was?

Bree Hunter 06:10
I did. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:12
Okay.

Bree Hunter 06:14
Okay. So I've been in this role for two and a half years now. And before that I was still sort of connected to this role, and I loved it for a period of time. And it's just, I've changed and grown, I guess. So it's time to take on a new challenge. And I was acting in the role I'm applying for, although I'm interviewing for later today. And that's where I found it really energized me of the things that I was doing. And then having done the StrengthsFinder, it just backed up why those particular functions were energizing me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:52
What were some of those functions?

Bree Hunter 06:54
Working with the community. So it was project managing the planning phase of new projects, and I was working on new mountain bike tracks. So I got to do all the community consultation, and the planning around that. And I really enjoyed getting feedback from the community and advocating for what they wanted. And also, you know, within, I work for city council, pulling people together within council to get the project going, like I don't hold... claim to hold the expertise. I really rely on other people's expertise and getting the right people together to make something happen and just sort of facilitating that process.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:38
Okay. All right, that makes sense then. So, let me ask you a few questions then. And then I think I can help with a few of these things. First of all...

Bree Hunter 07:51
Okay.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:51
Quick, just clarifying question, the role that you're interviewing for, is that in the same organization or is that a different organization?

Bree Hunter 07:59
It's the same organization. But it's, at the moment, I'm in operations at like a Depo sort of setting. And that role would be in the town office, away from operations.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:14
Okay, very good. So let's see if we can leave a little bit of time in terms of working up to how you talk about strengths and interview because it's different than how most people would think. Very often, they find that many of us perceive that we're going to need to talk about them extensively, and use like the right word, so that it perfectly matches up to our strengths and everything. And I find that there's much easier, much more organic ways to be able to leverage your strengths in your interview. So let's see if we can leave a few minutes to talk about that towards the end. And then in the meantime, let's see if we can get to the bottom of some of these strengths and even understand them a little bit deeper so that we can figure out how to answer some of the other questions in terms of what is right for you. Is that fair?

Bree Hunter 09:03
Excellent. Okay.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:06
Cool. So along those lines then, you said it sounded like a lot of these when you read them do line up, are there any in particular that you find don't match up for one reason or another? I guess that's question number one.

Bree Hunter 09:23
No, I think they all line up. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:28
Okay, great. What about then, out of these five that you have on this list, are there any that resonate with you more so than the others?

Bree Hunter 09:38
I would say, Learner, Restorative and Individualization.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:48
Okay, so tell me about each one of those. Let's start with Individualization. So what about that really feels like, yeah, this is clearly high resonated or high priority.

Bree Hunter 10:03
Okay. It resonates because in my job, I manage a team of people. And I really enjoy leading people and I like resolving conflicts, I like carrying people together, that you might not think through each other, but I can see they've got particular strengths or weaknesses that counterbalance one another. And a lot of that comes from my own experience working in small teams. What else? I think everyone's unique. I enjoy learning from other people's experiences, and learning from that. And at the same time, I really enjoy having responsibility that I sort of have control for the end product and making sure that things are completed.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:56
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. Those are all... those things, particularly, I think that everyone is unique. Those are things that somebody who can't help but individualize would say, that's very individualistic of you, Bree. So what about the other two? I want to just understand this a little bit more, and then I've got a few questions that I want to help take us a little bit deeper on these.

Bree Hunter 11:25
Okay, as far as the Learner, I'm just sort of skimming what it says makes you stand out. I love learning, but as it's in there, which I thought was interesting, I actually enjoy the process of learning. Like, I might not retain all the information, but I love the activity of it. And particular things I'm interested in, like for the last probably 18 months I've really been interested in leadership and management, and learning tools and ways to grow in that space. But I particularly like to learn about myself and how to improve myself and then helping other people improve themselves as well.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:06
Where have you seen that, really, what's an example of where you've seen that really recently that like, "if only I could do more of that"?

Bree Hunter 12:16
Funny because I've also been listening to a video coaching series. I find my favorite part of the day is not busy working, getting things done, but it's the interactions that I have with people. And I can easily stop and spend a fair bit of time just learning about them and learning from them and seeing where they're at. So somewhat taking conversations off track of work, and really finding more about who they are and learning from their experiences, and also asking them sort of questions that might point out things that they hadn't thought of before I realized. And it's a shame that I can't. I'm very aware and trying to be time efficient with what I do. So I only have so much time that I can take out to have those conversations.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:07
That's super interesting then. One that you have already recognized that. But two, by the way, I totally forgot for a minute that we've emailed the back and forth that during the career coach series and now I recall that, now that you said that, but I just remembered that we had...

Bree Hunter 13:23
That's okay. I don't expect you to remember.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:26
Well, it's kind of a weird thing. I remember people's names and email addresses a lot, because that's what I see the most. But I knew that we've interacted, and I remember that email exchanges, I just didn't remember what it was about, necessarily. But I think that one of the things that, as coaches, that we look for, just to give you a glimpse behind the scenes, we're looking for, where are the anomalies. And one of the places that we find anomalies a lot of the time is where are those places within your current work that you keep gravitating towards, but don't necessarily have enough time for and it feels like you're perpetually don't have enough time for. So that's in my mind, as you say that, that's one of the things I hone in on and want to know more because that is likely where we're finding those anomalies, you know, from the, as I'm explaining what I'm doing for coaching, I guess, at the same time here. So tell me more about that then, where do you find out of those types of interactions, that you are adding value to someone else's world too. Where you're getting either feedback, or thank you, sort of things like that with those types of interactions, where you get to learn about them and ask them questions, as you said, but you're sort of taking conversations off track, and it's not a normal part of your job, per se.

Bree Hunter 14:46
I guess, sort of more the coaching style, talked a lot about in management courses these days.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:54
Sure.

Bree Hunter 14:54
Pulling more information out and asking them like, you're doing to me, the questions that they might have in the back of their mind, but haven't had to answer before, and helping clarify things for them. And I don't get to, like I often deal with members of the public, and so I don't always get to do that with them, because I might be trying to negotiate a particular issue or something that they're not happy with. So I often use this strength of mine to build a rapport with them quickly, to let them know that I understand their issues. And I also realized that often people just want to voice their opinion, get something off their chest. So I guess I sort of use coaching techniques in that space...

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:38
Give me an example of that. Because it sounds like you're thinking a few different times. What's a recent example where you've done that?

Bree Hunter 15:45
I manage fire in reserves and managing and mitigating fire, which is in the urban interface. So often we're cutting down trees, or slashing vegetation, next to people's houses. So they get upset. So I go out and say, you know, this is what's happening. And we have to... they might be planting trees on council land, and we need to remove them. So giving them you know, I mentioned how long have you lived here, sort of getting a picture of their connection to the property, then explaining the changes in our policy and why now all of a sudden, we have to remove the vegetation, saying that, you know, I completely understand if I was... if this was happening next to my home. But then coming back to the facts of why it's really important that we need to do this. So I guess a bit of education, which often the public are aware of, you know, the facts as to why we're doing particular things. And I guess just coming to an agreement and getting them to see my point of view, as well as the land manager. And, you know, there's liability issues. And it's concerning for us. And I'm faced to deal with this situation. I don't want to have to do it, but it's for their own safety.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:04
So this is super interesting, that one set of examples, use it every single one of the strength themes. So if we break this apart for just a second here, and we look at that example where you've got to go talk to, it sounds like you know a property owner or somebody who is, you know, utilizing a piece of property or whatever else it is, and you know, they're planting trees or whatever else is going on, you having that conversation. First of all, you're asking the types of questions other people don't ask. And I think that partially it comes from your desire to learn. But I think that also comes from maybe even moreso your tendency to want to individualize and really understand kind of the uniqueness. And then what has a tendency to happen is, it sounds like you are leveraging that information that you accumulate through your desire to learn and your tendency to individualize. And then you also have this desire in some ways, or you can't help but do it, even if desire is the wrong word, to have a higher degree of ability to bring things back together for harmony. And interestingly enough, like I can, probably anybody can tell within 10 minutes of talking to you that you're generally a positive person. So I can see a lot of the positivity pieces, we call the positivity and a few other strengths, we call them umbrella strengths, because they have a tendency to just sort of go over the top of whatever else that you're doing, and you can't... it has a tendency to be difficult to separate it out. Whether you want to or not, it's just going to kind of be there working, amplifying other things in the background. But does that make sense how that one example that you gave me really is actually pulling from all five of these different areas, it's not really just any one or two of these?

Bree Hunter 19:04
Oh, yeah, no, that's really interesting. It was good to go through that exercise.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:09
Have you ever thought about it in that way before?

Bree Hunter 19:12
No, I haven't. And that really makes it quite clear now, that's great.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:17
What is clear to you now versus before?

Bree Hunter 19:21
I guess, stepping through the process that I have when I speak to landowners about these issues. And again, giving it that framework, which I often have trouble articulating, the highlights, each one of those steps picks up one of those strengths. And so I'm really just stepping through those strengths and bringing it all together at the end to create a positive, harmonious outcome.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:50
What is... what you'll find, or at least I think you'll find based on my experience in working with other people that have similar strengths to yours, or this type of strengths combination, is that you'll probably flourish in areas where you get to be proactive, versus reactive. And here's what I mean by that. And there's a couple other words we could use to describe it maybe even better. When you are faced with a continuous sort of problems that are coming from a negative standpoint, and that's... if that's all you're doing all day, that's gonna feel really, really draining on you, because both your restorative nature and your harmony nature, going to want to pull it back to harmony or want to restore those situations. And if that's what you're doing all day long, where you are perpetually out of harmony, then that is going to... it's going to feel really, really like it takes a lot of energy. And it's going to feel very, very well, I think draining is the right word.

Bree Hunter 20:59
I think that explains it perfectly. And that's why I struggle in my current role, because it's all very reactive and it is draining. I don't get that time to be strategic or positive, pushing things forward in a positive light. And I think that's what I really enjoyed about the role I'm interviewing for, is I was so energized by you know, I'm planning something positive for the community to utilize in the future. And that was really energizing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:29
Yeah. So I think, just to give you a little bit of validation that the more that you can align yourself with those types of roles, and organizations that are putting you in that more proactive standpoint, where you get to proactive and productive standpoint, or you get to work more on, "Hey, this is already good. But we need to make this even better" or "We need to take the situation, which is generally more on the positive side. And we need to move this agenda forward." Those are going to be better fit, better alignment for what you need and better play to your strengths. So I think one thing that if you haven't already, you know, got it written down someplace capturing that you definitely need to be on more of the proactive side, or the more positive making it better side is going to be something that is a must within your next role. If you don't get to spend the majority of your time there, it's going to be... it's going to feel like it does now or worse.

Bree Hunter 22:30
Yeah, now that's a really good point. And that's what surprised me about the strength tests with the, I think it was Learner, I never had the confidence, I guess, or experience around strategic planning. And I thought it was something that, you know, I wasn't going to be very good at. But I think this is where that comes through. It's strategic being strategic is just focusing on those things to improve, which is often in my current role, I get frustrated, because I see all these things there that I want to improve. And but I just don't get the time. It's not the focus of the job. And that for I often feel like I'm not achieving things, or I'm letting the team down because I'm not able to improve those things.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:15
Yes. So it feels almost like you're perpetually losing in some ways.

Bree Hunter 23:21
Yes. Even though others don't say that or think that, feedback. I really internalized that. Yeah. Cool.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:31
So I think that there's probably areas where we could dive much further, but I wanted to save a little bit of time. So we could talk about how to leverage some of these things in the interview, but I think that the more that you can ask yourself, those types of situations like, in my past roles where have I found those small tidbits that I am gravitating towards? Or where have I found the small tidbits of enjoyment, or the things that I'm particularly great at? And then break those apart and see which strengths are kind of coordinated with that, then you'll be get to get... you'll begin to get more answers about what really is going to be right for you within that next role too. Whether it's the one you're interviewing for or another one.

Bree Hunter 24:15
Okay. Yeah, that's good advice.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:18
So when you think of interviewing then, to shift gears on now, when you find you're having the most struggle in thinking about this idea of communicating your strengths, or getting across your strengths in interview, and what is... helped me understand the desire there first.

Bree Hunter 24:36
I don't know if they'll actually or they're not likely to ask the question of, what do you feel your strengths are. Because the company base questions to I've got to be really conscious of knowing my strengths and throwing them into examples that I answer in the interview. So if it's problem solving question, then talking them through the example. But being conscious of where you particularly highlight and say, because one of my strengths is such and such and such, I'm clearly, I have a ability to do this very well. And this is where that came through. I guess it's more in relation to that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:20
I have a couple... if that's the case, then I have a couple ideas for you, in terms of things that I can teach you fairly quickly, that might be really useful to you immediately, this afternoon. To give you a little bit of context, typically, when we're teaching things for interviewing, and something that has lots of different variables, usually we're taking like four hours to teach that like, for example, in career change bootcamp, or going through and doing much more prep or anything else. But let me see if I can break this down into a way that can be useful to you immediately. One of the things that I find is that when you communicate, that I enjoy, or I love something, people automatically assume that you are good at it. That's our tendency and a bit of our human nature. So they don't necessarily always think about it in those terms. But that's the association they get along with it or the feeling that they get as well. They don't necessarily in their brain say, "Well, she loves that. So she must be good at that." That's not how the self talk works necessarily. But that is one of the things that we find over lots of years of testing this stuff out, and knowing some of the psychology behind it, too. So knowing that, you can leverage that immediately in your next interview. So if they ask, you know, what... you were talking about, like a problem solving question, right? So what... you probably know a little bit about since you work there, too, like with the types of questions, is that going to be like a behavioral style question, where they say, "Tell me about a time when you had to solve a problem." Or are they going to say, "Hey, if you have to solve this problem, what are you going to do in this situation?" Which do you think more of those might show up?

Bree Hunter 27:14
The behaviorial. Yeah, so you give an example and talk yourself through the task scenario.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:20
Okay, perfect. So if that's the case, and they say, "Hey, tell me about a time where you had to solve a problem that popped up on short notice and you were successful with it at the end?" So just that type of question. So instead of saying, "One of my strengths is problem solving." A different way that you can go about that is be able to say, "Well, let me tell you about the time in my last role, where I had this particular problem. And I gotta tell you that one of my favorite things about this piece of my previous role was, A B and C." In this case, it might be, you know, getting to interact with people in a way that I got to understand their problem. And I got to understand really what they need, and then pieced together a solution that was really individualized to them. And I found that every single time I got the opportunity to do that, they were actually pretty happy. Like it, we went from a situation where they were, quite frankly, not excited at the beginning." And you'll want to use specific, you know, specific times or specific examples, you know, "I was talking to Bob, about the tree. And Bob was telling me that, you know, really, after I asked the question, like, hey, what... how long have you lived here? When did you plant the tree? And he was telling me all have this situation. And I learned that Bob didn't realize that he couldn't plant the tree there. And if I would have..." I'm just making this up on the fly. "But if I would have gone down the road a little bit further, and just started telling Bob that he would not, like that he can't plant the tree there, without asking all of this to try and understand, then it would have been a terrible situation. And quite frankly, Bob was already irritated that I probably would have made him further irritated. But I love that opportunity to be able to understand what's important to people and where they're coming from. And every single time I look at that as an opportunity to be able to learn more about them and then figure out how we can get what we both need. And after I asked Bob, what that was, you know, we were able to talk about it, and we figured out a solution. And he was actually going to move the tree back five feet. And that worked out really, really well in the end. But I find, every time I get the opportunity to have those types of interactions with people, and take a situation that would otherwise be bad, and really recognize where they're coming from, that those are the things that I do very, very well, but also they're the times where I enjoy it the most. So one of the reasons that I'm excited about this particular role is because I perceived that I get to do more of that." Does that make sense in terms of good example for how to go through that, but then you relate it to the needs of the other role. And then you also relate it to your particular strengths. Not saying that these are my strengths, but these are the things that I enjoy the most. And here's how I'm actually using them.

Bree Hunter 30:32
Yep. Now, that was really good. And I was actually able to, while you were speaking, think about how I actually using my strengths. I find the... where the needs of landowners and the council pros and finally compromise that suits us both. I think I'll leverage that. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:56
That is, that is fantastic. So that's one very easily transferable way to talk about your strengths and give people the impression of what your strengths are, but also, at the same time, being able to relate it into their world, because you're like literally showing them like, "Hey, here's the element that I perceive is going to be helpful to you." And putting that as a portion of your answer too. So that you're spelling it out for them. But at the same time, you're not tooting your own horn in a way that feels false.

Bree Hunter 31:30
Yep. Good advice, Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:32
Well, I'm glad that it is helpful. How else can I be helpful to you?

Bree Hunter 31:38
I guess how... I feel we sort of touched on a little bit. Yeah, in my current role, I feel like I've been battling with just trying to improve my weaknesses. And I guess that's what I found really awakening with doing the StrengthsFinder is, no, these are actually strengths, which can be perceived as weaknesses in your current role. And I guess that's where, you know, that's your whole thing is that your values or your strengths don't align with what you're doing. But how do you balance using and harnessing your strengths? But also, you've got weaknesses and you're going to have to utilize your weaknesses, time to time like, how much do you focus on improving those weaknesses?

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:25
There's a couple of different lenses that we look at this through. So in our career change bootcamp program, one of the things that we teach pretty extensively is the concept of the shadow side to your strengths, or we call them "anti strengths." So that is not your weaknesses so much, but negative things that are caused by your strengths. So just really quick example of that, like a really basic example, like I am ridiculously future focused, very futuristic like that as a thing that I cannot help. One of the things that, that has a tendency to be a huge challenge with, is anytime I need to focus on like small details in the past, like I just, I cannot comprehend, I cannot use them. I also am very much of a big picture thinker to go right along with that, and I may... I see the forest, not the trees. So, I guess, tons and tons of details. So, as you might imagine, that gets really, really hairy in a lot of different areas. And, you know, things like reviewing contracts, when they used to work in HR, or reviewing policies and stuff like that. I got... at one point, put one of our organizations I worked with, into probably a potentially big liability situation, because I just don't even see that stuff, but I was responsible for it. So we have a tendency to look at it in terms of, what is the shadow side to your strengths. And one side of that is, how can you better align what you're doing and spending more your time on with you getting to operate inside of your strengths? Partially because it just feels a lot different and it feels better. And quite frankly, I think it's a better way to live. And there's just, doesn't solve all your problems. But it does feel differently in terms of even if you are challenged, like the stress feels different than... you know, stress feels different when you're working with your strengths compared to stress, when you are not consistently working with your strengths. So there's that side of it. But then there's the other side, where it just allows you to often be more successful within a given role. Because nobody is good at everything. So if you can align more of those pieces with those things that you're going to be more gifted at because of your strength, then it just gets a lot easier in some ways. Even if you're in a challenging role, so there's that alignment side. But then the other side is the skill side. So even if you do a lot of great work, finding an, you know, role and organization and all of those things that are very aligned with what you want, and your strengths, then there is still the skill side, the skill development side of other things that you might need. A really common version of that is being able to advocate for yourself or ask for what you want, within a work environment like that, that isn't related to strengths necessarily. I mean, it can be in some ways, but for the most part, like that's a skill that people can develop over time. But it directly impacts how you get to spend your time. You know, if I... in my latter career, when I used to work for other companies besides my own, I was much much better at saying, "Hey, I'm really interested in these particular projects, I think that these would be a great fit, here's why thousands of organization will benefit from them, here's I think I will benefit from them. And I would like to spend more of my time working on these projects." And then routinely having them say, "Yes" versus at the beginning of my career, and saying, "Hey, I think it'd be cool if I did this kinda, sort of..." and that felt really awkward. So you get the skill development side. But to answer your question directly, I think that the more time you can spend actually trying to align yourself with your strengths and trying to spend more of your time there, we find that that is going to take you further faster for nearly any goal that you have inside or outside of your career, whether it is other areas of life, whatever else, is just going to get you further faster. And we've got a lot of data and evidence to support that versus spending really any kind of time at all, focusing on bringing up your weaknesses. Unless it is to figure out how you're going to given some thought for how you're going to balance that out, in one way or another. Maybe that is... I'm great at this on the team. And there's this other person that is great at the other thing, so maybe we can share some of the workload or giving something of that kind of strategic thought or, in my case, I mean, I do a lot of that on our own individual team. Because quite frankly, I'm bad at a lot of things based on my strengths and that's okay. But that type of strategic thought is useful around that versus me spending tons and tons and tons of time focused on things that I will probably never be good at. And I don't want to confuse that the skills. So strengths are different than skills.

Bree Hunter 37:39
I guess that's what I've been utilizing in my own team probably the last 12 months is, you're recognizing what I'm not as good at which others are. And doing that same thing, delegating those tasks to those people who enjoy doing those things more, and they're better at it, which gives you time to focus more on the other things. And I guess one thing about this job I'm interviewing for to be a real shift, because I won't be managing a team, I'll only be working on my own projects, but again, pulling those other people in as experts to help. That might require me to utilize some of those shadows strikes a bit more, because I'm relying on myself to get it done.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:26
Yeah, I see what you mean. So prior to, again, I think that's a great... the interview is a great opportunity to find out more about that. And maybe it turns out, it's really not a good fit. And that's okay, there's nothing wrong with that. But I think if I'm in your situation, I'd rather know, before accepting it versus after accepting it. But I think that it's a great opportunity to since you know some of those things about yourself to ask for the areas that are of the highest priority for you. And ask and that try and understand at a deeper level, versus a lot of interviews, if you don't ask, then it's going to gloss over it, because they don't necessarily know what's important to you.

Bree Hunter 39:10
Yeah. Okay. As far as just quickly, you know, thinking of other career options, which in line with my strengths, would something like, you know, because I'm interested in leadership and management skills and things, that kind of thing, or maybe HR would be interesting, or would not just be more the same kind of busy work or policy, trying to improve policy or develop policy. Do you think that would align with these particular strengths from what you've seen from yourself or from others?

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:43
I think situations in which you get to create an individualized experience for people, you're going to find those to be in a lot of situations more gratifying. Because it'll pull on some different pieces of your strengths. There's a lot of different types and ways that that could look not necessarily just one industry, but ranging from, on one extreme, that could be like user experience design for different types of software, something on another extreme, that could be like, developing live events for people. And then still another area, that could be like designing, training and learning programs for a particular organization or working internally, a lot of times it gets lumped into HR, but a lot of organizations call it like learning and development. They have a couple other names for it, too. But there's some quick areas where that could be a fit. There's also going to be some other variables in there in terms of, is it the type of organization that supports the type of learning that you have got the desire for? And does the individualization really actually matter to the firm, is that one thing that's valuable to them, as well, and not just to you, we don't want to make sure that there's not, an out of alignment piece there, too. And that really the same types of things that are valuable to them are those that they're going to reward you for, because when you have that be a fit, then it feels much better too and then you truly get to leverage some of those strengths versus being face value or should matter. So that's some really super quick ideas. But then, beyond that too, again, those situations where you get to focus on improving a situation, or moving something that's already good and making it better, I would say that you're probably going to find that you have, unless you are acting as a consultant type role, then if you have lots and lots of executables, or tasks that are all supposed to be delivered by you versus with a team, depending on what they are, you may find that draining as well, because all your strengths are people focused, as opposed to like task or work focused. Does that make sense?

Bree Hunter 42:12
Yeah, it does. And I guess this job I'm going for, it's about improving things for the community. And I would just have to accept that it's not for particular individuals, and you're not going to make everyone happy in the community. So some people might not like what you're doing, and whether I'd be comfortable with that or that just frustrate me long term.

Scott Anthony Barlow 42:36
Yeah, there'll be interesting, I definitely would say good opportunity for you to learn more about that and maybe even go out and talk to some of the community prior to, if they offer you the role. Or if you decide to even run the role or whatever, like, do that as a little bit of an experiment and try and feel out whether that is something that's empowering to you or frustrating to you about some of the issues that you would actually be working on. And that would be a good way to kind of validate that, "Hey, is this going to be a, lift me up type of thing or drag me down type of thing?"

Bree Hunter 43:09
Yeah. Cool. Now, that's really helpful. And even if it's just a stepping stone in a different job to develop other skills, or learn new skills to your time or something, take those skills and the whole package and try something else or might lead to something else more fulfilling.

Scott Anthony Barlow 43:31
Yeah, absolutely. Was that helpful?

Bree Hunter 43:35
That was... All of the Americans word, "Awesome."

Scott Anthony Barlow 43:37
That's awesome.

Bree Hunter 43:40
That was awesome.

Scott Anthony Barlow 43:43
All right. Fantastic. I'm glad it was awesome. And did we hit on all the areas that you wanted?

Bree Hunter 43:49
Yeah. Now, we certainly did. I know, I wasn't exactly sure what I wanted to hit. But, know that was great. That was very helpful. So thank you, Scott. I appreciate your time and your busy schedule.

Scott Anthony Barlow 44:01
Absolutely. My pleasure. If there's any other way that we can help support you, then don't hesitate to let us know. And let me know what happens through this interview. I'm interested to find out, keep me posted.

Bree Hunter 44:14
Okay. I will. Thank you, Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 44:17
Yeah, I hope that gives you an idea of just how powerful these concepts can be, and how we can actually utilize a deeper understanding of your strengths, and what we call "Signature Strengths'', and actually begin putting them to work for us. And not just one area, but multiple areas of our life, the more that you can spend time working with your strengths rather than against it, the more that you're going to find that, you just have a higher quality of life all the way around. And even when you're working in things that are challenging for you, it's still going to allow it to feel completely differently. Okay, so, but it gets even better than what you just heard, because afterwards, I want you to understand what happened. Guess what, Bree sent me an email very, very shortly afterwards, and said, "Hey, Scott, I wanted you to know what came out of our last recent session here." And she'd said that, well, she got the job. Woohoo! She'd been offered the job. And not only that, but in this particular case, obviously, we recorded this session. And she had a copy of this session. And one of the things that she said that was really powerful for herself is that she'd had this fairly limiting belief. She said, "You see, I've actually never heard myself speak before. And I always believed that I wasn't able to articulate my thoughts very well. And I was pleasantly surprised to hear that I sounded way better than I expected. And this has helped me feel much more confident when speaking to my team and my other colleagues." And then she goes on to say, "Thank you." So this is far, far ranging. Really a deep understanding of your strengths and how it connects back to your reality can completely change not just your career, not just opportunities that are coming your way or that you're taking advantage of, but your entire lens that you look at life through. I hope this was really helpful to you. And if you want to hear more like this, let us know what you thought of the episode you can email, hello@happentoyourcareer.com and share any feedback or like I said, if you want to hear more episodes like this, we'd love to hear from you. And also, by the way, thank you so much. We've had even more people that have gone over to iTunes and Stitcher and other places where you can play podcast and left us ratings and review. This latest one comes from Kay Rose 55 says, "A hidden gem for any career changer or coach. I was so surprised at the high quality of this podcast is someone who has consumed quite a few different career advice, pods and articles, I'm used to having to squeeze out value from a bunch of fluffy bullet points, or upselling type of content. But with this podcast, the advice feels juicy, relevant and really intuitive all at once. Thank you." Thank you for taking the time to share your feedback. And that helps other people be able to find the show, which means that we can then in turn get more people to work that they absolutely love and is meant for them in this world, which works well for all of us. Hey, I really appreciate you spending your time with us. We've got so much in store for you coming up right here next week on Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 3 47:42
There's all these morons out there making tons of money. What's my problem? Very smart, wonderful people doing it. But seriously as like how hard could it be?

Scott Anthony Barlow 47:54
Hey, all that and plenty more in store next week for you. We'll see you then. Until then, I am out. Adios.

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When Legal Meetings with Jay-Z Don’t Bring Fulfillment

by

BALL WITH ALLEN IVERSON, MOVIE-MAKING WITH HOLLYWOOD ELITE, AND SIGNING CONTRACTS WITH JAY-Z

My friend Mo claims he’s worked a lot of dream jobs in his lifetime.

In his first role post-college—at Reebok HQ—he spent his time playing company basketball games at lunch and participating in marketing photo shoots with Allen Iverson.

Although these perks made the job pretty special, Mo realized he didn’t love working with a huge company, so he looked for a smaller business to join.

After some self-reflection, Mo decided he was ready to hop on a plane to LAX with a dream and his cardigan. (Ok, maybe not the cardigan part.) He booked a one-way ticket and used some connections to secure a role as an assistant in a major entertainment agency, where he brushed shoulders with screenwriters, A-list actors, and directors. Although he enjoyed getting to know the world behind the scenes, Mo knew he wouldn’t last long. Assistant work in LA can become toxic fairly quickly, so a little over a year after moving to La La Land, he felt ready to spread his wings and fly away.

Mo’s next dream required a new degree. He accepted admission to law school in Boston and set sail on finding a kickass role in the entertainment world. Using his connections, he secured an internship and eventually a legal clerk gig at Def Jam Records, home to celebrities like Jay-Z, Kanye, and Rihanna. With his third dream job secured, Mo spent his days checking clauses on Method Man’s contracts and sitting in conference rooms with Jay-Z. For the average person, this lifestyle is almost unfathomable. But according to Mo, the shine wears off pretty quickly. Before long, boredom and disillusionment set in, and he pivoted for the third time.

YOU KNOW, I'D PRETTY MUCH WORKED THROUGH MY 20S AND EARLY 30S KNOWING WHAT I WANTED TO DO AND WAS VERY FORTUNATE TO LAND IN ALL THOSE POSITIONS, BUT NOW HERE I WAS AT THE END OF THAT JOURNEY STILL FEELING LIKE, ‘HUH, IF THOSE THINGS DIDN’T MAKE ME HAPPY, WHAT AM I REALLY LOOKING FOR HERE?'

Like many of you, Mo found that his success didn’t necessarily equal happiness. He needed fulfillment. So he began considering his true needs, and one day he decided to become a career coach. Today, he works on the Happen To Your Career team. He uses his unique experiences and knowledge about forming connections and finding unparalleled success to help connect career seekers find their own unique happiness.

We talk to people with stories like Mo’s all the time. People run hard after dreams, make the right connections to land in incredible positions (from the outside perspective, at least), and once they arrive, they realize they don’t want this dream anymore.

Worse, they have no idea what they want. High achievers are great at achieving, but the success doesn’t always satisfy. That’s where we come in.

On our latest podcast episode, we chat with Mo about a few common questions we hear from people trying to find work they love. Read on for the highlights!

CAREER SEEKER QUESTION #1

I WANT A JOB THAT FITS MY STRENGTHS, BUT I FEEL LIKE I HAVEN'T BEEN WORKING IN MY STRENGTHS FOR A REALLY LONG PERIOD OF TIME. WHAT SHOULD I BE DOING OR WHAT COULD I BE DOING THAT WOULD HELP ME REFINE MY STRENGTHS AND BE ABLE TO FIND NEW WORK THAT ACTUALLY HAS TO DO WITH THOSE STRENGTHS? -Anne

Mo’s Answer:

“Get a sense of what your strengths are, and if you can’t apply them in your current job, then find some projects where you can apply them outside of work.

For example, when I was a practicing attorney making the transition into coaching, I developed my coaching skills outside of work. I took classes and practiced with friends. Anne can start by understanding what her skills and strengths are, including what she enjoys doing, and then create an opportunity to apply those discoveries.

For instance, I talk to a lot of people who are leaving day jobs in one career to get into coding and designing. All of this coding and designing takes place on off hours, nights, and weekends.

Also, many clients find opportunities within their current jobs. Most bosses are not going to say ‘no’ if you’re like, ‘Hey! There’s this thing that I think that would benefit the company tremendously and I’ve wanted to try it for a really long time. Could I take this on as an additional project?’”

CAREER SEEKER QUESTION #2

I'VE SELECTED SOME ROLES TO TEST OUT WITH THE GOLDILOCKS METHOD. THE ROLES I'VE CHOSEN ARE LIBRARIAN, INSTRUCTIONAL DESIGNER, AND TRAINING AND DEVELOPMENT SPECIALIST. WHERE I'M GETTING STUCK IS IN KNOWING WHERE TO GO TO FIND PEOPLE TO INTERVIEW THAT HAVE THESE ROLES. WHAT IS THE BEST APPROACH TO CONTACT PEOPLE IN THESE ROLES? -Katherine

Mo’s Answer:

“Linkedin is one of my favorite tools. So you have this idea of job titles and if you have an idea of the company that you would want to work for, then go to the company LinkedIn page. Click on who works there, and then use the filters to identify people with that job title. And then boom. There you go.

When you look to connect with someone on LinkedIn, you want to personalize the note to the connection request, and say something like ‘Hi. My name is Mo. I’m a law student interested in entertainment law. I see that you work in entertainment law. I’d love to ask you a couple questions about your career path. Thanks!’ Leave it at that. The connection request introduces you, lets them know why you’re reaching out, and lets them know you’re interested in their career path. It’s sort of a little bit of flattery. You’re not asking for a job. You’re just asking to learn more about their career path, which I think is sort of an easy thing.”

CAREER SEEKER QUESTION #3

I'M FINDING THAT I ONLY HAVE LIMITED AMOUNTS OF TIME AND ENERGY TO BE ABLE TO MAKE THIS TRANSITION. MY SCHEDULE HAS A TENDENCY TO CHANGE WITH THINGS LIKE TRAVEL AND OTHER THINGS THAT POP UP ALONG THE WAY. WHAT CAN I DO TO MAKE SURE THAT I MAKE ENOUGH TIME AND ENERGY TO COMPLETE A SUCCESSFUL TRANSITION?

Mo’s Answer:

“If you already have a busy life with travel and unpredictable schedules, you might want to change your expectations. I think we sort of beat ourselves up for not doing enough, so it’s important to change expectations around how much you can actually get done.

Once you’ve changed expectations, ask yourself, ‘What’s one thing I can focus on?’

if you’re feeling like you’re going in a hundred different directions, you must prioritize. Find the first domino that will impact all the others, and focus on that. Realistically, you can’t do a hundred things in a day. Focus on being effective and not letting yourself feel so overwhelmed by everything you have to do.”

To hear more about Mo’s journey to career happiness and his detailed answers to the most common questions we hear at Happen To Your Career, listen to the full podcast above.

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Mo Chanmugham 00:00
I think it's more problem if you're just not paying attention and, you know, 10 years down the wrong path, you finally kind of lift your head up and you're like, "Hey, wait a minute, how do I get here?"

Introduction 00:16
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:40
What would cause someone to leave opportunities working with Jay Z, or Allen Iverson or Rihanna?

Mo Chanmugham 00:48
But you know for me there's something that was always missing and that was this piece of fulfillment. So obviously from the outside looking in they were exciting jobs. And when I got there they were still exciting but the shine wears off pretty quickly in jobs like that and then it becomes a job.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:05
That's Mo Chanmugham. He's a career coach who works here with us at HTYC. And he's left many dream jobs, multiple times over. He's also made many career changes ranging from attorney to career coach and many things in between and many different industries too. And as you might imagine, this means that he has a lot of insight on the subject, which is also part of the reason why we wanted him on our team. But aside from that, today, we get deep into some of the lessons that are in Mo's story. And Mo hangs around to answer some of your questions that have been sent in by listeners over the last couple of months. Enjoy.

Mo Chanmugham 01:46
But first let me say it's definitely been a mutual love fest. So I'm glad I'm finally part of the team here and also for me this is exciting because I'm a longtime listener and now to be a guest and part of the Happen To Your Career team is a pretty exciting for me. So I'm sort of going to be a little fanboy here, I'll let you know that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:07
I appreciate that.

Mo Chanmugham 02:07
Yes, so the question of how I became a career coach is actually really interesting. I like to say I've had several dream jobs in my career. First sort of leaving College of the Marketing major and landed a job working at Reebok, their headquarters in Massachusetts, I was a Marketing Associate there right out of college...

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:25
I'm super curious about that when you started in marketing, what caused you to actually start there? Where going to go all the way around because clearly you haven't always had been a career coach, right? And you've gone through this really interesting set of career decisions along the way and you've had multiple dream jobs as you put it and I totally understand that. I've been there too. So what cause you to get into Marketing in the first place?

Mo Chanmugham 02:48
Yes, so for me, I've kinda always knew what I wanted to do. So back then when I was going through college, I was Business Major and back then it was either you focus on finance or accounting or marketing and I'm definitely not a number guy and I was always attracted to the idea of working in the sports and entertainment industry. I kind of just paid attention to my own interests and I love movies and TV and sports back then and working in that in those industries seem like the right choice for me. And I love the idea of marketing and being creative and things like that. So marketing was a good fit for me, and it was actually my Professor senior at college, I went to Boston University, born and raised in Boston. He was actually the head of online marketing at Reebok at the time and he was sort of a young prophet internet prodigy. He was probably only a few years older than me at the time. But anyway, he was our professor. Him and I had a good relationship and come graduation time, he was hiring and I got hired to work on his team so that was really exciting coming out of college, landing a job at Reebok essentially doing exactly what I wanted to do and it was fun. You know, working at Reebok headquarters at the time. We were partnering up with... I'm dating myself here but you know, we were partnering up with athletes like Allen Iverson and Steve Francis and people like that for the NBA. And it is almost like working at a supercharged summer camp. I mean we play basketball at lunch and you know soccer outside and all kinds of stuff. It was a pretty cool place to work. Yeah, great job coming out of college. And I loved it. It was great time. But I would say for me, the learning curve was pretty fast and a few things started to happen. I would say about a year and a half into it, working for a big company is one of those things where either you love it or you hate it and I've come to learn that I'm more of a small company type of guy. I don't like feeling like a cog in the wheel. I don't like feeling like, you know decisions being made that I have no impact on and that was happening a lot at Reebok, not that I went in expecting to make decisions. But you know you if you're young and your career you want to pay attention to the to the environment and see what you like and what you don't like about it. I just didn't feel like you know, it was fun to work at a big corporation like that and also quite frankly, you know after about a year and a half, I was kind of like not excited about learning how to sell more shoes online. The bottom line of making more money for Reebok just wasn't exciting to me anymore. And I feel like there's something else out there for me. And so I started thinking about what I wanted to do next and law school kind of popped into my head and you know for no other reason just the fact that it felt like a noble career where you can still make a good living. And otherwise I had no contact with attorneys. I didn't know what attorneys did other than you know what I knew from watching way too much law and order. But life actually took me to Los Angeles. So Reebok is going to around the playoffs. I actually got laid off after about a year and a half there and I actually ended up moving to Los Angeles, had a bunch of friends from law school that were out there, had family out there. And booked a one-way ticket to LA and kind of got coffee entertainment industry bug and through my contacts there, I was able to land a job working for one of the big talent agency back there and that was such a cool experienced. You really have to sort of quintessential starting off in the mailroom working your way up to an assistance desk. Then you become a junior agent, then a more senior agent and so on. I was in that world of like hollywood actors and directors and as literary agent, I got to... our clients were the screenwriters of Motion Pictures of major films. And it was cool to be an assistant. You really sort of got to see the insides of how movie deals get put together and go working our counterparts with... we're at this at the major Studios like Warner Brothers and Universal and Sony and things like that. And again, you know, I was following that theme of I love sports entertainment and here I was getting a chance to work in the entertainment industry and you'll also see the theme of every job I've ever landed was because I knew somebody that needs somebody. I’ve never had to rely on my resume no matter where I went to college or what my GPA was so, you know that informed a lot of my coaching now and to me it's all about networking and connections and building good relationships. It makes the job search infinitely easier.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:07
An infinitely more possible too.

Mo Chanmugham 07:08
Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, I really, you know, I can't imagine how hard it would be to get a job at a large talent agency simply by applying online.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:18
Oh, my goodness those number have to be a infinitesimally small, right?

Mo Chanmugham 07:22
I mean and because what I learned from the inside was, listen, I was someone was a young 20 something working there, but I was working alongside guys to had, you know, we're 10 years older than me and we're all starting in the mailroom pushing a mail cart making like, you know 300, 400, 500 bucks a week back then but these were guys who were older than me, less six-figure careers on Wall Street and from Major law firms in New York and major cities, all coming to chase that dream working in the entertainment industry. And so I can only imagine how competitive it is. I mean can't imagine they even looked at anyone who applied online for those types of jobs. I think everyone got in because they had a connection and they really hustle to stand out.

Mo Chanmugham 08:04
Quite frankly I think sports and marketing and entertainment, those are pretty competitive fields because people really want to work in those fields and they don't pay a lot in the beginning. So you really have to want to be in there. Be there to work in those jobs. And so working as the entertainment industry was awesome. I loved it for as long as I did it. But I also saw there that it wasn't the right fit for me pretty quickly about a year in you know, you kind of see how crazy the personalities are. There's a little bit about toxic work environment that I won't get into some of the shadiness of the entertainment industry, but for people who didn't their can they can attest to how crazy it is and if you're a fan of entourage. You know how poorly assistance get treated in that world. And for me I kind of had a little too much self-respect to put up with that kind of treatment. So, you know, another thing I would point to is that even back then I was able to sort of assess who was above me. So with the agents and senior agents above me. I did tell that there is no one in the leadership of the company that I wanted to be like, they were all kind of jerks and really sort of fell from self-absorbed and narcissistic and you know, that's just not who I wanted to be and if that's who I need to be to sort of climb up the ranks then I knew this wasn't for me as well. Not to say that, that's all of them or the entire industry. Back then, that snapshot of when I was there, that's what I saw and so for me, that's when I started looking again and the idea of law school came back up and I went ahead and applied in the back to these coasts and and went to law school, and there's still was the desire to work in entertainment industry and again through networking and this was through a very random college friend who had no ties in entertainment industry except for one random connection. I use that connection to land a summer internship working for the in-house legal department of Def Jam records in New York City. And from there I went on to graduate and work for Def Jam, you know, as a law clerk there, so my first job out of law school was working in house in Def Jam, legal department, again, I hit another dream job, I couldn't believe I landed it. And once I was on the other side, what I saw was, man, I mean, I was the only person hired that summer to work there. And when I was there, I saw students from, you know, some of the top law schools in the country, we're talking like Harvard, Yale, Stanford, sending my boss like gift baskets, and letters, because then maybe they met him at a conference or something like that, like these kids were doing exactly what they were supposed to do, as far as you know, sending letters and reaching out to the right people. But you better believe that the you know, Senior VP of legal and Business Affairs at Def Jam is not sort of reading your letters or have the time to sort of or cares about your tea or your package. You know, he's just way too busy for that. And those care packages ended up coming to me the other sort of assistance, I got to dig into those things. But to me, again, it was just very telling, like, I noticed that like, you can't just sort of mail stuff in and hope to get someone's attention. Like the only reason I got through the door was because I had a personal contact, made some introductions, but then I took it from there. And I noticed that even you know, another big lesson I got from that experience, when I was an intern at Def Jam was, you know, the day you show up as an intern at a company like that, it's a pretty informal work environment. You know, you're in jeans and sneakers, people have TVs, and couches, and stereos in their offices, you know, it's not a traditional, necessarily professional sort of corporate work, white collar work environment, it wasn't like that, like you would find it a standard law firm or something like that. And there's certainly no sort of formal internship trainee program, like I showed up, all eager to do my best and impress everyone. And it was almost like they didn't even know I was coming. So I had to really like hustle and build relationships with the handful of attorneys in the legal department. So they could trust me with giving me an assignment. You know, it's not like someone was there thinking about, "Oh, we need to make sure Mo has a good experience here and learn something." They were busy doing their work. So for me, I learned a great lesson in building relationships and earning people's trust, so that they would say, "Hey, Mo, would you mind looking up this, you know, this clause in method man's contract? Or, you know, we're working on this deal, could you, you know, draft this letter and use this template to do that." So...

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:04
Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:43
Hold on, I just love that you've slipped in there. Yeah. Can you look up this clause and Method Man's contract? That just does my heart good.

Mo Chanmugham 12:42
Well, I mean that was how cool my internship was really. It was like "Oh we're going to this meeting with..." you know, this is when Jay-Z was present at the time. So...

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:52
Yeah.

Mo Chanmugham 12:53
You know the fact that was my work, right, like, oh, I'm going to a meeting with Jay-Z and you know Kanye’s new album is coming out. We just signed Rihanna at that time, and so yeah, like that was my work and that was fun and who wouldn't want that? I felt very fortunate very lucky to be in that position. But now like to finally like sort of wrap up my story here, my career path you know, what I took from all those experiences were I'm so glad I had those experiences. But you know for me there's something that was always missing and that was this piece of fulfillment. So obviously from the outside looking in they were exciting jobs. And when I got there they were still exciting but the shine wears off pretty quickly in jobs like that and then it becomes a job and you know, it's not like I was hanging out with Jay-Z or Kanye West during like that, like I was just sitting in an office looking at contract and paperwork all day. So the work becomes what you do and for me again, I just felt like I wasn't making enough of an impact with my skills. You know, I felt we got so much more to give, there's so much more I wanted to do. That I felt far away from that. So then I was really lost. You know, I'd pretty much work through my 20s and early 30s kind of knowing what I wanted to do and was very fortunate to land in all those positions, but now here I was at the end of that journey still feeling like, "Huh? All right, if those things weren't it, if those things didn't make me happy, like what am I really looking for here?" And that's when things get interesting and I had to really sort of pay attention to some of those like personal desires, but then try and map that onto a career and my job search and the one I sort of help clients with and it's very similar to the Happen To Your Career programming as well. It's very much geared around know yourself better but then testing out these options that you think you might be interested in. And learning from those experiences to understand what is a good fit not just you know, financially or status wise, but personally, like do you find the work fulfilling? And to me that is now like the cornerstone of any decision I would want to make as far as choosing job is concerned. Status and money just you know, don't bring you the happiness that you think it would. And I think a lot of people have to learn that lesson first. So they can then go on and sign up fulfilling job that's going to be a much better fit and much more enjoyable.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:45
Why do you think that is though? I am super curious about that, I've got plenty of thoughts on that, but I'm really curious about your opinion on, why do you think we've sort of need to learn that individually first?

Mo Chanmugham 15:35
Yes I think that's just the queue we get from society, right? Like, in high school after that early teenage years, you know when you're thinking about career path, I think most people, in your adult life will sort of give you that advice like "Mo, here's a good career path. You'll make good money and you know, it's respectable and what not." So, you know, we also have these preconceived ideas that are fed to us from other people and not that they're necessarily bad or wrong, but, you know, we never question if that's the right advice for us, personally, right? And so I think successful people, we'll take that advice and apply it but then pay attention to whether it's a right fit for them or not. I think you know the people I see struggling with sort of making a career decision or moving forward with in their career are the people who aren't paying attention. You know, it's not so much a problem if you start off on the wrong path, I think it's more problem if you're just not paying attention and you know, 10 years down the wrong path you finally kind of lift your head up in you're like, "Hey, wait a minute. How did I get here?" And have no clue of how to get out of it or what direction you want to go into. So for me, I'm a big believer that, you know, curiosity is sort of the bedrock of anyone sort of successful path forward whether it's starting a business or choosing your career path, if you're not curious about anything, if you're not interested in anything, that's a problem because I don't know how you know, I wouldn't know how to then guide you right? Like if anyone who's like sort of looking for the answer outside of them, it's, you know, they're gonna be looking for a long time if they're waiting for someone else to tell them what to do with their lives. It's a... that's not a winning recipe.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:27
Well, that's really interesting that you say that on a lot of different levels because it almost feels like the work that we have to do with people when their curiosity has been beat out of them for one reason or another.

Mo Chanmugham 17:44
Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:44
It’s like reignite that in some different ways so that they can then leverage that as opposed to perpetually looking for this thing that is external out there as you put it that, like I think you said that, if you're going to be looking for the thing that's always you know, outside of you are outside or external or whatever you said, then you're going to be looking for a long time, and I think that is true on so many different levels.

Mo Chanmugham 18:09
Yeah, and you bring up a good point, because I think so when I work with people. People come to me, because they think they don't know what they want to do, right? That's like the fundamental question. I'm not sure what I want to do next. And through my own experience having coaching of people, I actually know something that they don't know about themselves, which is they do know what they want to do next, they're just scared to follow through on that. And so it's funny, I kind of laugh with clients were like usually by like the third, fourth, or fifth session. It's like "All right. Now that we've kind of like run around in circles because you're scared to admit you actually do know what you want. Like we can show up at this journey for you and just like really focus on the thing that you are scared to admit yourself." So what I mean by that is, you know say someone is interested in going to the entertainment industry for example, so there's that interest but immediately like the same... the other side of that coin is the immediate sort of fear of like that's impossible. So, like people have these desires then they have the limiting beliefs about those desires and then so which are stronger than their desires so that they just stay stuff. And they talk themselves out of what they really want to do and I call this like the cycle of stuff. It's like you have this desire, the next thing that pops up is our all the fears based on, you know, why you can't have anything you want. And we then think it's safer to do something else. So we all want to stay safe, right? We don't to make a fool of ourselves. We're scared of rejection, failure and all that terrible stuff. But what we don't realize is that if we don't make any effort to try, you know, we're just going to stay stuck where we are. That's not good either. So, yes, your point... our jobs are to really help people, one get in touch with what they already know, you know, giving them permission to say that's okay to want that and let's figure out how to get you headed in that direction and so it's like we help them figure out what they want and then we help them sort of clear a path to get there. I think that's sort of the essence of what we do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:16
Yeah. Absolutely. I envision like this big bulldozer, like running in front of you, like clearing all out these trees or anything like that`, to be able to move along that path, but absolutely love that. I think one of the things that would be super cool here is if we could take some of the questions that we have gotten really recently that have to do with these exact sort of things as people are making these transitions just like you've done so well for yourself and yes, they're trying to figure out what do they want to be doing and how do they move further down the path to be able to get at what they want and then clear the path along the way, w`ant to answer few of these questions?

Mo Chanmugham 20:56
Yeah, and actually, you know before we jump into that there's one critical point. I want to make that actually came up with a recent client of ours...

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:04
Let's do it.

Mo Chanmugham 21:05
This idea that asking for help is not something that they're doing. So the sort of perspective shift that I made with this client was, you know, imagine you're sort of a first grader learning how to read and feeling like you didn't need help from your teacher to do that. That would be silly. Right? Like of course first grader, you know learning to read would need help from a teacher. And but in the context of getting help around answering these big huge questions of what do you want to do with your life to think that you can answer that question without sort of the help of a guy or someone who's done this already or an expert or mentor would be silly and but yet people think that. People think they're supposed to know exactly what they're supposed to do. And I see that it’s coming up a lot. It's like this sort of myth that you're supposed to know what you want to do at the beginning of this process. It's almost like you know, I'm an adult. I should know how to figure this out, but you don't and that's okay and it would be silly to sort of think that you should know how to do this. You know, you're trying to figure out a problem need never take on before and why not get someone who's done it before to help you with that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:11
You know, it's funny like your analogy of learning how to read and I would consider learning how to read a fairly difficult thing overall, right? It's not like you just practice it once and then you're good for the whole rest of your life. It's something that takes a lot of practice and experience and learning and continuously getting better at it and I would say that, in that way, it's pretty similar. But I would also say that, you know, figuring out what you want to be doing and where you want to be spending your time and effort and energy and gifts and everything is in some ways way harder than learning how to read. So when you think about it that way it seems absurd that we wouldn't want help with that if it's an even larger challenge and an even larger problem than learning how to read. And you know, we would considered learning how to read on our own just miraculously making that happen impossible. So, I love that analogy for all those reasons and more.

Mo Chanmugham 23:14
Yeah, and just to put a finer point on this, you know for anyone listening, the point here is get help. You don't have to figure this out on your own and you shouldn't feel like you should have to figure this out on your own.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:27
Yeah. We talk a lot behind the scenes about building out a team or building out your pit crew in order to help with all of those pieces and help create a support network and environment that is going to allow you to do whatever you want to do and this case, obviously we're spending a lot of time helping people figure out what their path is and how to make that happen. And that's what we see as required to be successful and yet you know as you said, it we all believe that we have to sort of I don't know, it's part of adulting or something like that. I don't even know where it comes from necessarily that we have we have to do it on our own and that’s in reality. Very cool. I appreciate you pointing that out because I think that's really relevant here and also interestingly enough, we're going to read off a few questions here and then we're going to go through these but these are people that I don't think all of them were necessarily super comfortable in asking these questions and trying to get help for themselves in a variety of different ways and they still did it anyways, which is pretty cool to see. This comes from Anne and she says "I want a job that fits my strengths, but I feel like I haven't been working in my strength for a really long period of time. It's been most of my day outside of my strengths and I feel like because of that, I need to almost refined my strengths. So, what should I be doing or what could I be doing that would help me refine my strengths and be able to find new work that actually has to do with those strengths." So this is not a small question, right?

Mo Chanmugham 25:12
Yeah, you know, I'm immediately struck by, one, I think it's great that she knows what she's good at. I love when people have that confidence and can sort of state like these are my strengths, these are these what I'm good at. And so it sounds like she's in an environment where she can apply those strengths. So I guess because it's such a big question of, what will sort of just make up her scenario.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:36
Oh, I think I'm curious a little bit of the contacts knowing a little bit more about her situation. I think there's also an element here where she feels less confident about what her strengths really are because she's been almost, I don't think the right word is beaten down, I don't think that's accurate but you know, it's she's lost confidence in what who she really is and what her strengths and what she actually brings to the world. And I think that, that's why she's saying she needs to refine it. So I think that's the element that isn't said in that exact question part.

Mo Chanmugham 26:07
Yeah. Okay that makes sense. I mean If you're in the wrong work environment, it certainly can beat you down and you can lose confidence in yourself as well. So that's even more of a sort of critical situation, but I think you know for her, just the idea of knowing you want to sort of identify what those strengths are, right? That's like let's start with that. That's the step one is getting a sense of what your strengths are, and if you can't apply them in your current job, then, you know part of your responsibility, then it's to maybe find some projects where you can apply that and if it's not within work, maybe it's outside of work. I kno, so for example, even when, you know, when I was practicing attorney and I was making the transition into coaching, I was doing my coaching skills outside of work, taking classes and practicing with friends and other people. So I start with the coaching skills. I had to go out there and learn them and practice them and those took place outside of work because I want to do any coaching in my day job. So, I'm wondering if she can get created there around understanding what her skills, strengths are, the things she enjoys doing, the things she's good at and then you know if you can apply them in your day job, then you know creating an opportunity for yourself where you can volunteer, you know, do it for free. Give yourself work, the challenge of a project. I talked to a lot of people who are leaving day jobs in one career to get into coding and design things like that. All that's being done on off hours nights and weekends. So yeah, that think is certainly some areas where she can get creative around. How she can identify those careers and then create opportunities to work on those strengths.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:38
Well, the couple things that I take from that and what you said and what you shared Mo are number one, this is something where you have to actually go and do it in order to rebuild the confidence. Confidence comes from having the courage to move forward and then going and doing whatever it is and finding some measure of success or some measure of wins. That's where confidence gets rebuilt or built in the first time around. So that implies that you got to go and do it, right? Just like you're talking about and number two, even if she doesn't necessarily, you know to your point, even if she doesn't necessarily know what those are, if she can go and experiment and do some of those things like actually go and do the things that she suspects fall into those strengths realms for her then, she's going to have that feedback to be able to say "Yes this very much feels good. This very much is my strength. I want to double down in this particular area." And if that is the case then just like you pointed out like she's already going to have the skills and that if as she's doing something outside of her normal job. And one thing to be even out or build on what you had mentioned is a lot of times find that within our current jobs if there's an area that we want to explore most employers, most bosses are not going to say no if you're like "Hey, there's this thing that I think that would benefit the company tremendously and I've wanted to try for a really long time. Could I take this on as an additional project? Will still doing my normal work and be able to do this for the company and it's something I have an interest in into and..."

Mo Chanmugham 29:36
Yeah, that’s a great point.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:36
So, I think there's a variety of different ways and love what you were talking about there. That's amazing.

Mo Chanmugham 29:41
Yeah, I’ll you give an example from one of our recent clients who wanted to take on more public speaking, or get better at public speaking and so offer to do different presentations and workshops within his organization that was initially part of his job description but that was happening within the department and his team was happy to, happen to know more of that. And so I thought that was a great way for him to build a skill set in a sort of safe, easy and harmless.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:09
That’s super cool. Absolutely love that. So here’s another question then, this one comes from Catherine. And Catherine says, "I've selected some roles to be able to test out." And she refers to the Goldilocks method which by the way, we did an episode a while back on how to design career experiments and one of the methods that we talked about in there is the Goldilocks method. So that's what she's referring to where you go and you identify some of the different roles and people within those roles to be able to go and interact with and learn, you know, what do they love about the role? And you know, what does it actually take to be in that role, was it take to be successful and many other things to try and determine "hey, this roles a great fit" or "this chair is too big, this chair is too small" the social Goldilocks version of that. And she goes on to say "The roles I've chosen to test are; librarian, instructional designer, training and development specialist, and science writer" and she says "Where I'm getting stuck is in knowing where to go to find people to interview that have these roles and I've gathered contact information for people in my network who have these roles such as librarians in my life and people who have colleagues controls and I found names of other contact," but she's wondering, what is the best approach here? She said she's considering researching companies to see if they list out who have this role and trying to continue her research from there. But she wants to find this contact information, she wants to find these people who are there and she's wondering the best way to do that. What do you think?

Mo Chanmugham 30:12
Yeah. Well, so first I think it's great that she know she's already reached out to friends and family and people that she knows, that's brilliant. But Scott, I don't know if you know, if you've heard of this site, it's called LinkedIn.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:55
Whoa, hold on. No, haven't heard of it.

Mo Chanmugham 32:00
Well, let me tell you about it because it's a job seeker's best friend. But no seriously. Linkedin is one of my favorite tools and I love it and I love helping clients, use it better and more effectively, and that would be sort of my next step for her and okay great. So you have this idea of job titles and if you have an idea of like the company that you would want to work for then there's great way to sort of go on LinkedIn plug in the company name, go to the company page, click on who works there and then use the filters to identify people with that job title. And then boom. There you go. You got a list of x amount of people that you can reach out to. And then as you and I know there's a right and wrong ways to message people and connect people on LinkedIn. So, you know, we could we provide that coaching for her, around how to reach out to people and then you take the from there essentially, you know doing an informational interview with people that have interesting career that you think you might be interested in and to your point the Goldilocks method's perfect, because what you learn is from these informational interviews is "Oh this feels like a good fit or that's not what I thought it was and I now realize that's not that's not right for me." But yeah, that's probably one of my favorite and I feel easiest ways to start to gain some clarity around what you want to do next.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:20
Very cool. So, how might that look? Let's say somebody does want to go the extra step and they want to message somebody on LinkedIn, you and I both know there’s no perfect script that works for everybody and in some cases you're going to have to modify in a variety of different ways in order to be more effective. Plus some people just don't even look at their LinkedIn. So there's that factor too in terms of like LinkedIn maybe isn't a good contact but if they wanted to do that and they wanted to get started and we’re not gonna be able to cover 100% of all the ways that you can do that here, what's an example of what that reach out might sound like her look like?

Mo Chanmugham 33:57
Sure. So just from like a framework perspective, so when you look to connect with someone on LinkedIn, you want to personalize the note, the connection request, and you would say something like "Hi. My name is Mo. I’m a law student interested in entertainment law. I see that you work in entertainment law. I'd love to ask you a couple questions about your career path and would love reaching out with you, thanks." And leave it at that. So that connection request introduces you. Let them know why you're reaching out and let them know you're interested in their career path. So, you know, it's kind of like a sort of a little bit of flattery there where you're not asking for a job, you're just asking to learn more about their career path, which I think is sort of an easy thing people can say yes to. So that's how I would sort of frame that outreach.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:43
Love it. Absolutely. And you can't necessarily fake it but that flattery is very very helpful as long as it's true and that you are interested legitimately. And that is, yeah.

Mo Chanmugham 34:50
Right. Exactly, flattery or just showing that you know, you actually look at that person's profile and you sort of pick something specific out of that profile so you can be you know, "I'm interested in what you do. Because I'm interested in working at XYZ company" or "in this industry" or see, you know, "you went to so-and-so college as well. I'm an alumni from that college as well." So, like whatever you want to use as sort of your hook to connect with them, and let them know why you're reaching out to them. Like you said, it could be a number of different things, but you know that example. It was talking about the fact that they work in the industry that they want to work is.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:36
Very cool. Absolutely. Love it. Let's do one more question. I think we got time for one more here.

Mo Chanmugham 35:41
Sure. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:42
So, This actually there's five or six questions here that are very similar. So I'm going to pull from a couple of them here that we've had a really recently about time and energy. We all know that if we're going to make a change like this, especially one to work that we actually want to be doing, it requires no small amount of time or energy and action to be able to make that happen. So a variety of people had asked to something very close to the effect of, "Hey I'm finding that, I only have limited amounts of time and energy to be able to make this transition and furthermore, my schedule has a tendency to change with things like travel and other things that pop up along the way. What can I do in order to make sure that I am being able to make enough time when my schedule bouncing all over the place and also have the energy to be able to make this transition successful?"

Mo Chanmugham 36:43
Yeah, it's great question. So, you know, We're all busy, you know, there's so many projects were all working on. So if you have a full-time job, got families, got children and trying to make a career change and you've got a full plate already. So with that being said, I think there's sort of time management question can be looked at a few different ways, and one way I'm seeing that it is important to look at is managing your expectations. If you already have a busy life, it sounds like this person does with travel and unpredictable schedule like you might have to change your expectations about what sort of a perfect schedule looks like or you necessarily having the energy to do it all every day. So I think that's something to look at, let's change expectations here because I think we sort of beat ourselves up for not doing enough. Meanwhile, you know, you're tired at the end of the day, you know, and I think that's something to consider where a lot of us beat ourselves up where we probably should have to be. So changing expectations around how much you can actually get done, with all that you have to do, I think is important and then I guess the second thing I would say to that is, you know, I love one of the questions from the career change bootcamp program, around the specific topic coming from “The One Thing” book by Gary Keller, right? Keller Williams Realty.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:00
Yeah and Jay Papasan, who was the co-author was on the podcast a while back as well.

Mo Chanmugham 38:06
Right? Yeah, exactly. And I mean, talk about a question that sort of just cuts through all the noise is, "What's one thing you can focus on that by doing so will make everything else easier?" I mean, that question is so simple and beautiful and powerful. But you know, if you're feeling like you're going in 100, different directions, you've got a lot of things to juggle, part of this is the responsibility of prioritizing. And a great way to prioritize is asking yourself that very important question of what's the one thing, what's that like, lead Domino thing that will impact all the others. And so focus on that, delegate or eliminate, you know, the 100 things on your to do list, because realistically, you can't do 100 things in a day, and really focus on being effective, and not letting yourself feel so overwhelmed by everything you have to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:58
It's kind of miraculous how that works. You know, I think that, there's two sides to it; One, if we're in a situation that is not exciting to us and we want to make a change then a lot of times, we want it done sooner rather than later. On the flip side, you know if we're going after something that really is,3 I guess you could say something that very few other people in the world have where we want to be able to do work on that excites us and feels purposeful and meaningful and we get paid well for it. And all of the other things that we have a tendency to want if you're listening to a show like this and that is less common in the world. So therefore it takes a higher degree of action and sometimes more time along with that action. So then it's this really interesting balance of wanting it now and desiring it now versus doing something that is harder and does take more action and I think exactly what you just said is super important. You know that you're not gonna be able to do everything. So you have to do the most important things and then you have to be okay with doing those most important things. Because otherwise, it's not going to happen but it is. The thing that I always hear from many of our students and if you've listened to the show, you've probably heard this from a few different interviews as well. Is that, it’s surprising looking back how quickly your life can drastically change. When it doesn't feel like that in the moment necessarily, but when you're on the other side of it and you realize, "Yeah, when it's only been four months" or it's only been, you know, five or six months or something like that. It's surprising how quick that can add up when you're focused on the exact two things that you just mentioned most. I so appreciate that on many different levels. And I am repeating it again because it's just really powerful and that in some ways if there was one secret that is a big part of it.

Mo Chanmugham 41:04
Yeah, no, it's your point. I think it's always going to take longer than you want, you know as a job seeker can never go fast enough. So when you're on the other side of it, you kind of see the wisdom in that, you kind of see like all right, like it took the of honor that was supposed to take.

Scott Anthony Barlow 41:20
Yes, yes.

Mo Chanmugham 41:22
So yeah, I think people should sort of give themselves the grace and not beat themselves up about how long things take into sort of focus on, you know, what's in front of them.

Scott Anthony Barlow 41:31
Well, you heard it here first definitely take that advice and Mo I show appreciation you taking the time and making the time this has been a big another, you did not disappoint a yet another super fun conversation. Just every time I get to chat with you, I’m so glad that we have you on the team.

Mo Chanmugham 41:51
Thank you. It was an honor to be on the podcast. I love what you are doing, what you created and I am so looking forward to you know, putting more people through the program and changing some lives here. So if you're thinking about joining, do it. We've got you covered.

Scott Anthony Barlow 42:09
We've noticed a funny phenomenon. We all have something we'd love to do or accomplish or even be that is wildly unrealistic. And for some people that's starting the business for the first time, for others it's making a career change to something that you know you'd love but for some reason doesn't seem quite possible. And if you've ever wanted to do something, but thought, "nah! that's not realistic." then, I want to ask you this question. What if it was possible? What if the only thing unrealistic about what you really want is the fact that you think it's unrealistic? See, here HTYC, we've been helping people do the impossible, and do things that they felt were unrealistic since 2012. And we realized that it doesn't have to be impossible. And on January 3rd, we'll actually be releasing a three part series on the behind the scenes of how we help people just like you make wildly unrealistic career changes. If you're not already subscribed to the podcast, you'll want to make sure that you do that now in your podcast player, because you will want to look out and make sure that you automatically download this entire series. It's going to not be like anything else that we've ever released before. So take a look out and make sure that you're subscribed or subscribed to our email list so that you'll get the series as soon as it drops. That way you can stop settling and go after what you really want, in this new year. We have much more coming up for you next week, right here on Happen To Your Career. In fact, we have a question that we're trying to answer very specifically, are there better ways to gauge success? And if there are, what are some of those ways? And, does it have anything to do with how we traditionally view success?

Lisa Lewis-Miller 44:06
So finding a way to move forward that doesn't also bring all the old discontent with you and that allows for you to expand and grow and step into something that's going to be so much more fun for you, without having such huge risk and such huge fear around that it keeps you from making a move forward at all.

Scott Anthony Barlow 44:23
We get to dig into all of those questions and answers next time right here on Happen To Your Career. And I just want to say thank you, by the way, because we've had a lot of amazing people go out to iTunes, go out to Stitcher and write ratings and reviews for Happen To Your Career and they help so many other people find the show, which means then that we can get even more people into work that they absolutely love doing and really is meant for them. This one comes from Ross UK, he says, "Happen To Your Career is a podcast I've recommended to so many people I've met going through a career transition or who want to make a change even if they don't know what that change is. I love hearing other career changers stories in the depth of detail that Scott goes into with his guests. It's reassuring to hear about their struggles. Confirming that no one is alone in having a bumpy career. Regularly listening to this podcast has helped with my own career journey. So thank you HTYC from me over in the UK. Please keep more great content coming." Thank you. Hey, and we'll see y'all later. Until next time, I am out. Adios.

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Help! I Feel Stuck In My Career

by

Have you ever watched the show Suits?

Surely, you heard mention of this USA Network series in the midst of the Royal Wedding this past May. Infamous royal Meghan Markle played the role of Rachel Zane in this drama about a New York-based corporate law firm.

The two main characters are Harvey—a hotshot, unbeatable, arrogant attorney—and Mike—a young, naive fraud with a photographic memory. From the very beginning, we watch Harvey mentor Mike on becoming a great lawyer.

In one of the most memorable scenes, the following dialogue takes place:

Harvey: What are your choices when someone puts a gun to your head?

Mike: What are you talking about? You do what they say or they shoot you.

Harvey: WRONG. You take the gun, or you pull out a bigger one. Or, you call their bluff. Or, you do any one of a hundred and forty six other things.

When Mike feels trapped in later episodes, he replays this conversation in his head and then creatively finds a solution to his predicaments.

THE 146 OTHER SOLUTIONS TO CAREER CHANGE

This back-and-forth conversation feels wildly similar to many of my coaching calls. Often, a high achieving professional schedules a call and shares the limited alternatives they perceive are available to them.

Most recently, this happened on a coaching call with Katie. She felt trapped. She’d invested in her company for a number of years, and she felt there was nowhere left to advance. Her employer paid for an industry-specific certification course for her, which made her feel indebted, but she knew the certification wouldn’t change her position in the way she desired.

Katie only saw one way out: She had to quit.

However, in our conversation, I helped Katie see a multitude of options available. Yes, quitting may be one of the solutions, but in my years of coaching people through career changes, I’ve realized jumping jobs or industries isn’t a catchall solution. In fact, many people end up right back in the same career dissatisfaction quickly after their move.

The way my friend Maxie McCoy puts it, sometimes the big leap is BS. Changing without knowing the major reasons for dissatisfaction is a poor solution.

DON’T JUMP SHIP YET!

Some of the most common phrases I hear from clients include:

“I don’t think I can go any further.”

“I’m looking to be able to grow.”

Or in Katie’s specific case,

“I’m a go-getter. I don’t feel like I can go get ‘em right now.”

Maybe you can relate. You feel stuck, and you only see one way out. Before jumping ship, I hope you’ll consider a few key questions:

  • Would you be willing to stay if something changed about your role?
  • What specifically do you need to ask for in order to love it in your current place of employment?
  • What can you do now to make sure you don’t get into a similar situation in your next role?
LISA BROKE THE (PERCEIVED) RULES.

My recent coaching call with Katie reminded me of Lisa’s story.

When we first met Lisa, she felt conflicted; she loved her day-to-day work in nonprofit healthcare management, but she felt exhausted by the structures around the work. More specifically, as an introvert, she felt a daily drain from the office environment that placed her side-by-side with a multitude of coworkers. She had no issues with her coworkers, but her unique wiring left her feeling exhausted at the end of every work day. Sad to leave her job but ready for an energizing career, she contacted us.

Through coaching conversations, we helped Lisa realize she didn’t need to sacrifice a role she enjoyed for the energy she desired. She could change her thought process and discover her ideal career with a mindset we call “and thinking.”

People rarely use “and thinking.” We’re used to “either/or thinking,” where we must choose between things. Like choosing between feeling passionate about work and making a decent salary. Or in Lisa’s case, choosing between a fulfilling work and a comfortable, energizing work environment.

As we worked with Lisa, she admitted her ideal career would be working as an independent consultant, but she had no idea how to transition or overcome her fears of instability. Our conversations helped Lisa realize the solution wasn’t to up and quit, but to have a conversation with her employer about changing the employment agreement.

Since Lisa was well-respected in her company, the transition ended up being fairly easy. In her very first discussion with her boss, she walked away with her first client. Lisa was valued, and when she let herself creatively consider options that fit her unique needs, she found a solution that worked for both her and for her employer.

Lisa’s story is just one example of why identifying the core needs for your career is essential before making drastic changes. To hear my live coaching call with Katie to address her feelings that she’d advanced as high as possible in her job, click the play button above.

******Katie’s end resolution email ***** went from scared and unsure what to do to now having her boss as an advocate.

Katie and I did that coaching session a while back. Shortly after that she sent me an email.

Hey Scott,

Just wanted to update you since we talked a couple weeks ago. I took your advice and I talked to my boss, telling him how I wasn’t enjoying work, wasn’t challenged enough etc. And it could not have gone better! He has actually recommended me for a job as a sales rep for one of our suppliers, that is a more challenging, involved position. He realizes that the position I am in now at his company does not have longevity and room for me to continuously grow. And now I have a job interview with that company!

Just wanted to thank you for all your advice and help!

Thanks,

Katie Kalchman

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Katie 00:00
Right. It's just like, "Oh, this is just another day, you know, another day, another dollar, like, here we are, again, nine to five, and go home next day" and no one else ever tries to step up and improve themselves. Right. So to be in that kind of work environment, it's just kind of sometimes degrading.

Introduction 00:20
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what it does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:44
If we go all the way back to Episode 243, which we call, six figure VP to $0. When you've had success, and now you don't. We actually let you be a fly on the wall when we aired a live coaching session with Robert, who was the VP, who was struggling to find work. In that episode, at the time when we aired it, we got so much feedback, people saying that they appreciated it and really loved hearing somebody else be able to work through what they were actually going through, the real things that they were actually going through, rather than just the version of that had happened afterwards. So we got so much feedback that we wanted to actually do it again. So we're going to. We're actually gonna let you listen to an actual coaching session that I did with Katie, a high achiever feeling as though she had nowhere to grow, nowhere to advance in her current company.

Katie 01:40
Yeah, I think one of the things would be to have more roles, responsibilities, you know, the suffering right now is pretty monotonous, and boring, essentially. So it'd be able to be challenged a bit more and have a responsibility to be able to, you know, I would create thinker to get to think outside the box, that sort of thing. And those chances do come up, you know, once every couple months. And I'm like, "Oh, I love that." They're like, "Oh, I don't happen to that for other few months."

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:04
That's Katie Kalchman. Katie's in activator, ready to make a change for career happiness, but she has a few hindrances standing in her way. And if you've ever felt like you've topped out in your growth at a role or a job or a company or a place in life, then you might have some things in common with Katie's story. Take a listen.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:27
So catch me up a little bit on the situation. Tell me, you know, how this came to pass? And then, what's currently going on?

Katie 02:36
Yeah. So, I’ve been working with my current company for just over two years now, I work in, like, medical devices, like, orthopedic racing, foot orthotics, all of that. So, it's definitely like a growing field but I've been working with a company for two years now. And about a year into working for the company, the owner of the small family run company, came to me and said, "I want you to go through this program to become a pedorthist, which means like making custom foot orthotics. It's a year program, it's online. So you can work full time and we're going to pay for your tuition." So I was like, "Okay, great." Tuition was totals about 10,000 dollars for the year. So, I've had to pay nothing at which that was great. And I'm just coming to... I just have one more exam to do to become certified. But what I realized is that, I don't want to stick with this company, essentially.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:26
Oh, no.

Katie 03:27
Well, it's a great company to work for, it's very stagnant. Like, once I've done this, which is the next three weeks, so I'm kind of at my limit. Like I can't grow as a professional, grow my career much more than that. And I'm 25 years old. I know I'm better, essentially better than that. You can go a lot further. So I'm not happy in the company, I think I'm not challenged. There's like, my job is to see patients on and fit them to devices. And I just sometimes don't see any patients certain days, and I just sit there and do nothing. And it drives me crazy. So I feel like I want to exit, I want to find a new job to pursue, a different career path, but I feel obligated to stay because they've paid my tuition. So it's like I haven't signed a contract, I didn't sign anything saying, "I will stay for X number of years" or anything like that. I've not legally signed anything. And I actually have a job interview for a job next week that I'm really interested in. And I just don't know when and if I decide to leave, what's the best approach to doing so is without breaking down any relationships that too strongly, as you coming across as ungrateful, I guess.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:40
Yeah, and it sounds like if I'm reading between the lines correctly, it sounds like even though you're not excited about the company any longer and even though you are interested in moving on, it sounds like you're working with some people that you have enjoyed at least at one point and care about your success in one way or another.

Katie 05:03
Exactly. They're very good people and that's the thing is like I've known them. I did like placements with them in summers of University. So I've known them for quite a while and I just like they're good people, but it's just not right for me. So that’s the kind of situation.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:15
That makes a ton of sense. So I completely understand why you feel that obligation. And also recognize that you can't ignore these other feelings, too. And it seems as though they're in conflict in some ways.

Katie 05:28
Yeah. I'm just unhappy. Like, I'm miserable every day at work, essentially. You know, no one wants to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:33
Yeah. So can I ask you a few questions about the situation then?

Katie 05:37
Yeah, sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:38
So, you know, when you say, "I'm pretty reasonably sure that I'm interested in leaving and I've even gotten a job interview this next week." How much do you know about what you want to be doing as your next step?

Katie 05:53
So that I don't really like I'm not like, "This is exactly what I want to do." I know, I want to like stay within the medical industry. So the company that I have an interview for next week, a friend of mine works there, and yes, he loves it, it's still within the medical field but it's more, I'm not sure if... they haven't in the states of Stryker, it's like a medical device company, it's worldwide, and it's an incredible company to work for. And their biggest thing is growth. And every time, every person I've ever talked to that's work there, loves it. So, you know, kind of was going into that as like, a stepping stone to see what could be next. So I don't know for sure exactly this is what I want to do. I don't have that, I guess, specific thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:35
Okay. What do you want most out of our time, today?

Katie 06:41
What I want is just like, I'm going to be leaving. So I know, I'm going to be just a matter of when is, you know, the most appropriate time to it, to do it. And when I do do it, what's the best approach? And what can I say? What shouldn't I say? And like, what's the best approach to discuss this, when I say, "You know what, I've been offered another job, I'm going to be leaving." So I wouldn't leave with if I didn't have another job lined up.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:03
Okay. Why is that?

Katie 07:05
Well, just for job security, like, I'm not going to leave and not have another job to go back into.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:10
Totally okay. Everybody's got a different situation. But I wanted to make sure that I understand what your situation is. Is that primarily financial driven, or is that primarily something else?

Katie 07:19
Yeah, mostly. Mostly financial driven. And just because, you know, it's tough to get by nowadays without making any money. So and I don't know when the next job opportunity would then arise.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:29
Sounds good. Okay. So it sounds like one of the biggest reasons if I'm understanding correctly, and please correct me if I'm wrong, but from everything that you've said, so far, Katie, it sounds like one of the biggest reasons that you're interested in leaving is, you don't believe that you're going to have the opportunity for growth beyond this. And it also sounds like your current daily duties are getting to the point where you're experiencing some boredom and a lot less challenges and a lot less desirability in one way or another, compared to you know, maybe when you previously started, am I perceiving those correctly?

Katie 08:08
Absolutely. It's just it's... I know I'm essentially ton... I'm smarter than things that I'm doing. I cannot challenged. Exactly. You got it right.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:18
Sweet deal. So, here's my question then, you know you want growth, and that's something that many people are looking for, absolutely. That's something I think we all need as human beings in one way or another. I've also learned that growth looks completely different in what each of us individually need. So I'm curious, tell me a little bit about what you've thought about already, in terms of what growth means for you.

Katie 08:47
I think for me, it means just being able to, you know, efficiency challenged, I think, you know, learn new skills, you know, continuing education, which is one of the reasons why, you know, I took to this course, you know, it's another opportunity, it's another growth opportunity to learn new skills to, you know, obviously, salary increase, and, you know, financial compensation is a big part of, you know, it's why we work, right, we work to make money, so being able to, you know, be able to provide and have a stable living income. But definitely, I think, for me, I'm always... I'm very driven person. And I've always up for a challenge and you know, want to learn new things along the way, something that I'm interested and passionate about.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:30
So you've used the word stable a couple of times. What does that mean? When you say stable, what does that actually mean for you? And why is it that you actually want that?

Katie 09:39
I think just because you know, I'm at the point, I want to have a career, I don't want to be, you know, I've been out of school for four years now. So it's not like I've been working for years and years, but I want to be able to be with a company that I can see myself with long term, and be able to grow within that company and have, you know, a reputation and a spot in a company that I can see myself growth instead of like, you know, I have two jobs in the past four years but I want to, you know, see myself in future in that one company.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:08
In financial compensation wise, have already thought about what you want and what you need moving into the next role?

Katie 10:15
Yeah, so I've already had like, I had a phone interview with them yesterday, and we, you know, discuss that as well. And, you know, my job that I'm currently on, I, like, I'm not going to be making potentially... the potential that I want to be able to make, even if I stick it out for another five years they're just very, unfortunately, keep coming.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:33
So I'm sorry... I'm not sure I caught that totally. You said that, the new company has a higher ability to pay and the old company is...

Katie 10:44
Much higher.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:44
Okay. All right. What will you do with that? If you make much much more.

Katie 10:51
Buy a house. That's the goal. That's my boyfriend and I goal, that's our goal. And my current financial situation, like, it's gonna be years more before that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:01
Weird question. But why is it so important for you to buy a house? Totally cool. I've had a house. I bought multiple houses, absolutely love having a house, but it's different for everybody. So why is that important to you?

Katie 11:11
I think it's just, you know, to have something to call your own, to own something like I own a car. Right. But being able to have a place, you know, instead of renting or jumping from place to place every year or two, to be able to know, have a home and be able to call that place your home and not just, you know, pay rent, you know, and rents wastes money I find, but you know, today's economy, it's, you know, for shopping here in Canada, it's an affordable to buy houses.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:36
I have heard.

Katie 11:40
It was not bad.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:41
Yeah. Especially in the areas that it sounds like you're interested in. Yes. So I live in Moses, Lake Washington, and Moses, Lake Washington has the benefit of being very, very low cost of living, which is...

Katie 11:56
Oh, much little cost in there…

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:57
Yeah, it's got a lake. It's beautiful. 310 days a year of sun, but it's not for everybody. So the reason why I'm asking you a lot of the questions like this is, I really want to understand what it is that you want to move too, as well. And because here's a couple of things that I heard from you, I heard you say that, "I'm definitely not going to leave until I have another job." And I also know that you're interested, like there's several different big reasons here, why you're interested in leaving in the first place. And I know that one of the things that you want out of this is like the house, and what should I do in order to leave and emancipate yourself almost. But I also want to make sure that I understand deeply why you're leaving. And also what we're going to have you running too, as well. It is, I find almost 100% of the time when people are running from something, but don't really have a great situation that lines up for them, then they eventually regret the decision to leave or regret the decision to move to where they went to or find themselves in a different version of the same place, if that makes sense. So clearly, you're already thinking about that, and kudos for already thinking about that in the first place. And I want to make sure that we can flesh that out a little bit further, because that's going to have to do with how you end up leaving and how you communicate it. And all of those other pieces as well. Is that fair?

Katie 13:30
Yeah, for sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:31
Cool. So a couple thoughts around that, aside from growth, and aside from, you know, the dream of owning something of your own, and aside from... and clearly, it seems like even though you want to experience growth, it seems like you are looking for stability in a variety of areas of life, it almost seems like... and I don't think that there's anything wrong with that. It sounds like you want to get several areas of your life that you have felt like are up in the air for all intents and purposes, tied down so that you can focus on other areas of growth that you want to be and I might be perceiving that completely wrong. Please correct me where I've got it wrong.

Katie 14:12
No, that's something correct. And the thing is, like, right now I'm commuting to this job about 45 minutes each way, as well. So it's you know, two hours a day almost out of my day that to a job that I don't like.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:26
Yeah, which makes it feel like, 7hours a day too.

Katie 14:28
So which makes it, you don't wanna work, in a way. If it was a job that I love to do, yeah, no problem. Or if it's a job that, you know, I was five minutes away from home, I would be like, okay, you can, you know, maybe suck it up a bit more.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:45
Yeah. Why don't want you to have to suck it up a bit more?

Katie 14:49
Me neither.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:50
Obviously, I'm a little biased, we run a company called Happen To Your Career and we help people not have to suck it up all the time. So I have a very biased view of this. But I don't think that you have to. I do really appreciate something, you know, one of the reasons why I was interested in talking to you about this in the first place about your challenger problem is because it was clear to me that you were interested in taking care of your current employer, even though it's not a great fit. And I think that is amazing. I wish there were more people in the world that were doing that in one way or another, even though you know, you're going to be leaving. So okay, a couple of thoughts here, and also a couple other questions along the way, so that we can get you what you're looking for out of this. Thought number one is, I recognize that there's this opportunity that is right in front of you that you're going to go and interview for, and could be potentially a good fit. What I think that is going to be beneficial for you is being able to make sure that you are even more fleshing out what it is that you really want and need out of this next role, to an even deeper degree from what you already have. And we can probably get some of that done on this call. But I think that that's going to be really, really important too. And I know that you have... I know that you followed us for a little while. Have you heard us talk about the ideal career profile?

Katie 16:21
I'm not sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:23
Okay, well think about it as almost a checklist of what you want and need to be more happy, more fulfilled growing more frequently. And think about it is, you know, creating your own personal checklist, to make sure that as you move into the next role, it has at a minimum, sum of those things that you want and need. So you don't find yourself in a different version of the exact situation where maybe you're getting paid more. But there's a ton of other ways that it just absolutely doesn't line up. And then you know, four months into it, six months into it, the honeymoon period wears off, you're like, "Oh, my goodness, what did I do?" I don't want that to happen for you. And that's part of the reason why I'm suggesting this in the first place. So we typically look at that in two different ways. We look at that from a minimum standpoint, in terms of, I'll just give you a couple examples here. And then we can relate them back to you. But part of that might be, you know, I know that if I'm driving more than 30 minutes to someplace day after day, it's going to drive me crazy, and there's going to be an expiration date for me, it doesn't matter how cool the job is, like eventually, that's going to wear off for me. I also know some really simple things for myself that if I'm working in a dungeon-ee type office where I don't have any exposure to sunlight, I'm gonna get super grumpy and like, so those are me, I'm a weirdo. And those are the things that I need. But what I want for you is for you to be able to figure out some of those exact same pieces, we know some of the money side. And I would encourage you to look ahead even a little bit further, you know, what are you going to be very interested in doing beyond the house? What is that going to look like as well. Houses, from owning the number of them over the years, always cost more than what you think they're going to in terms of maintenance and everything else. And then as you encounter other goals that also cost money, whether it be you know, saving for other future things or whatever else it might be, I want you to be able to include those in there too. So that you are thinking about the whole picture. So again, you don't find yourself in that other version. And I'm just using this as an example. But the overall point is, we can go through each area. And that's, by the way, that's something I can send you as an example of that ideal career profile so that you can go through for yourself and begin to say, "Okay, here's the type of environment I'm really interested in." Here's the ways that are most important to me to grow. Here are the types of people that I want to associate with, here is... and be able to go through each section. Does that make any kind of sense?

Katie 19:05
Yeah, for sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:07
Okay, so hold that thought in the back of your mind here. And I'll send that to you right after this conversation. But then the other side of it, let's talk directly about this, why you're going to be leaving there and what that looks like. The relationship that you have with your boss or whoever is paying the bills, do you work directly with the owner of the company or how does that work?

Katie 19:30
Yeah, certain days. Yeah. So it's very tough. You have like 30 employees. And he's like the owner, like does all day on operations, essentially, but he will still be in my clinic once a week. So yeah, like direct contact.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:42
Okay. And it sounds like that's a 'he' and, is he the person who authorized, you know, paying for your additional education?

Katie 19:50
Yes. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:51
All right. Fantastic. And with that, what conversation have you had, or what implications were there? Or what was implied? Or was there anything implied? Or I know, you didn't sign anything, and I knew that, like, on paper on purpose, you didn't necessarily agree to anything. But were there additional unwritten or unsaid things that you're feeling? Help me understand what those are.

Katie 20:19
Yeah, I think it's essentially that, you know, his idea is that by getting the certification, it will create more revenue for his company. So by him investing in me, it's investing in the company to create more revenue for the company overall. So I'll be having to create more products, essentially. So I think that's his intention, as far as that... so I think it's his attention as well. I'm paying for your school, you know, you're gonna, you know, apply that schooling and create new... make more money, essentially. 'Cuz I didn't ask him anything, I didn't ask him to do it. He asked me to do it. And I'm not gonna say no to free education. You know, I've been there for a year like, "Okay, sounds good." And I know, and like, I don't know if this really matters, but I know that they did get some funding through the government as like an apprenticeship for my tuition. I don't know how much of it, it was the full thing or part of it, but I do know, they got some funding from the government.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:22
So why else are you feeling... helped me understand why else you feel this deep obligation here? See if you can put some of that into words for me.

Katie 21:34
Because they have invested in me, you know, I'd pretty much... because I'd worked for this company, previously, in like, summers, it's been like some student work. They had an opening essentially went out of their way to contact me for the job. So they said, "Katie, we want you to work for us if you're willing to work for us." And I was gonna go back to school for nursing, actually. And I said, "Well, I might as well take the job. But if I want to go back to nursing another sem, I can't." So I kind of put those plans on hold, took the job, and you know, like that, and then just kind of got into it saying, okay, they're paying my school great. This is awesome. But now that I'm done school, I'm just like, this is not what I wanted.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:13
This is not as awesome.

Katie 22:15
This is not as awesome as I thought it was going to be. And you know, I'm loyal to a fault, I think is one of my problems with I'm loyal to a fault in a way. And I just don't want to, you know, I've known this guy, the owner for, you know, 10 years. And I just would feel, you know, not only like as an employer, but like, as a friend to kind of say, "Thanks. See ya!" I just feel bad. But I know what sometimes you have to be selfish and look out for yourself. And that's where I'm kind of at the point in that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:46
Well, I definitely agree that you do have to be able to take care of yourself. It doesn't always have to be selfish, necessarily. And I think that there's very often ways that we can do both. So let me ask you, let's go for a hypothetical question here. I know you're planning on leaving. But let's say for just a second that you weren't, and if you were in some other hypothetical universe to stay, what specifically would have to change if you could just like wave your magic wand and don't like, try and keep all the restrictions and the reality, and everything out off of your head for just a second here, and in this other hypothetical universe, what would have to change for you to be like, "Oh, my goodness, I would just keep on going."

Katie 23:38
Yeah, I think one of the things would be to have more roles, responsibilities, you know, the suffering right now is pretty monotonous, and boring, essentially. So it'd be able to be challenged a bit more and have a responsibility to be able to, you know, I would create thinker to get to think outside the box, that sort of thing. And those chances do come up, you know, once every couple months. And I'm like, "Oh, I love that." They're like, "Oh, I don't happen to that for other few months." So there are parts about it that I do enjoy. So just being able to have more, be able to really be able to act my whole potential.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:12
What's an example of one of those that popped up where you're like, "Oh, this is awesome!"

Katie 24:16
So we work directly with like, surgeons like orthopedic surgeons and plastic surgeons. So your surgeon will come to us and say, like, "Hey, I have this like, difficult patient, like, who needs this type of device. Like, can you do it?" I'm like, "Whoa, I don't know. Like, give me kike a few hours, and I'll let you know." And then it's plenty no, wrack my brain what I have to work with and then come up with a solution, and then end up working for the patient. And everyone's, you know, I'm happy with the results and patients happy because all the doctors happy with the results. So being able to really creatively think and apply, you know, mind knowledge is something that, you know, just not a typical thing is I really, really enjoy, like a little bit of innovation, kind of creativity. And that's what I love. And that's, that happens once every couple of months.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:03
Okay. What else would have to change? Clearly the compensation, that would be a big thing is what I'm perceiving to accomplish some of your other goals here. How much would that need to change? Talk to me specific numbers for how much like...

Katie 25:18
Quite a bit. So like, the only reason I'm getting a raise, I've been there for two year. The only reason I'm getting raised is because of my new certification. So I've done a lot other... taking on other roles outside of my job description. And then a lot more time to promote the company to market the company, within the community. And the only reason I'm getting that raises because my certifications. And so it's just kind of like, it's, you know, it's kind of a reflection of like, you only value me, you don't really value me anywhere else, in a way. And I know, just talking to my co workers who've been there for, you know, over five years, they've been promised raises, they're never gotten, you know, not even getting any raises, even asking for them. They're like, "No, no, no." So they're, unfortunately cheap, in a way, for their employees. And all my other employers that I work with are pretty much like, they're going to be there for the rest of their lives. Like they're settled, and that's what they're going to do forever. And people complain... they complain all the time, but they don't do anything about it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:26
Don't get me started on that. That's another...

Katie 26:27
I don't want to be one of those people. You know what I mean? I don't want to be one of those. And so, yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:34
So when you say that, are you also saying that some of that culture would have to change to?

Katie 26:42
Yeah, it's not a very... like the owner, my boss is very, very forward thinking. He's very, like, what's next thing we could do as a company, but everyone else I work with is just kind of goes to the post of the ropes every day. So you know, having that like that kind of direct, you know, influence in a workday day to day doesn't motivate me, right? It's just like, "Oh, this is just another day, you know, another day, another dollar, like, here we are, again, nine to five, and go home next day" and no one else ever tries to step up and improve themselves. Right. So to be in that kind of work environment, it's just kind of sometimes degrading.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:22
Okay, what else would have to change? That's amazing, by the way.

Katie 27:27
I don't know, to be honest, like...

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:29
Well, you've got a magic wand here. So you might as well waving around.

Katie 27:32
I know. Like, it's not that bad. You know what I mean? It's not like, it's terrible. Just I don't think the right to me, could be great for somebody else who this is, you know, content and satisfied. But I think if anyone were to just tell you to describe me as like a person, like personality around is like, I'm a go getter. And I just don't feel that like, I can go get him where I am right now. And I don't want to be stuck there for potentially longer than I have to.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:59
Yeah. So it have to be some pretty big changes is what I'm perceiving from that. In this alternate universe where, like, literally, the entire culture would have to change to where you are surrounded by other go getters. You are, I'm gonna use the word empowered, but that's not quite what I'm looking for it but essentially, like empowered in your setup to be able to, go get him.

Katie 28:27
And the thing is, though, is like I've told my boss that you know what, I'm, like, bored. I've told them like "I'm bored, give me things to do." I've told like, the owner, that mediate boss and one of the managers saying like, "I'm bored, how can I help? Give me something to do." And nothing's happened. So I've verbalized with them. Suddenly, like, I'm not happy. I mean, I'm bored. I'm not challenged. And I've gotten nothing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:54
Yeah, usually you won't. Not because, yeah, not because he's a bad person. But I mean, I've owned a number of businesses over the years, and I've been in many, many leadership roles. And that's... it's hard to know what to do with that. So it's completely different than if you went in and had asked him, "Hey, you know, here's what I'm looking for. I had a ton of fun with this project here the other day where the surgeon called me, I got to wrack my brain. I got to creatively think and apply and innovate here for exactly what I'm doing. I want to do that for, you know, seven of my eight hours a day. And right now I'm spending a ton of time where I'm not doing anything much of the time, I'm not feeling challenged, I am looking specifically for other projects. Here are three of them that I thought that might be a great fit for your business, and also would be a ton of fun for me to work on. Which of these, do you think that would be, you know, actually a great fit for you too, that you'd be excited for me to take the reins and be able to lead on?" That's a completely different type of request. Does that make sense how that could be different? That's something that you're, not just this boss, but future boss and future leaders who can do something with because when you go in and this is not intended to call you out or anything along those lines, I'm only going into it because I want you to go into the next role too, and be able to get what you want and get what you need. And when you ask for specifically what you want, and when you do so in a way that is helpful to the other person, so they don't have to do all the extra work, then you'll find that miraculously you get exactly what you want. And they look at you as like their star performer. Does that make any kind of sense at all?

Katie 30:54
Yeah, for sure. That sounds like a good idea.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:57
So definitely, you know, no matter where you're at, the more that you can... You want to always be looked at as a top performer. That's an easy way to be able to make that happen, make it easy on the other person to give you exactly what you want and help them at the exact same time. But I'm only going into that for detail for just a second just because I want you to be able to have that going forward. And it's going to be relevant to this conversation too, that you're going to have. And it might even be a series of conversations. So let me articulate back to what I heard from you really quick. So I heard that the big disconnects here are that you're not really being challenged very frequently at all. It's like every couple of months, where you're getting a challenge. And I also heard on the flip side of that, but one of the biggest things that you're looking for is to be able to experience growth by being challenged. Is that right?

Katie 31:53
Absolutely.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:53
Okay, so that means that, basically four months at a time, you're not getting exactly what you feel you need most, which is not a surprise you're not having fun. But that's thing number one. Thing number two I heard is that your financial goals don't appear to align with what you're currently being paid out.

Katie 32:13
Correct.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:14
And well, you know, that may fit for that business model. I don't know, maybe he doesn't have a lot of margin, I have no idea what his business model is at all. Maybe he's paying you the very, very top that he can pay. I have no idea.

Katie 32:26
He may very well be but it doesn't mean it's not the right fit for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:29
Yeah, if it doesn't align, it doesn't align. Absolutely. So, you know, that's a really big disconnect. And there's this huge element of the culture too. Like, you want to be in a place where you are not just being challenged, but also... or you can take it and you can run with it. And you're around other people that are doing that too.

Katie 32:54
Better like minded. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:55
Yeah. And right now, what you're experiencing is that, you know, all of the employees, and not all, but some of the employees at a minimum, complain about their situation and complain about not being paid enough and complain about not, you know, having a great situation, but they don't really do anything about it. And that's not the type of people that you are interested in surrounding yourself with on a daily basis.

Katie 33:18
You got it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:18
Okay. So, also, you have this long term goal, or you want it not to be too long term, to be able to own a house. And that's something that's really, really important to you. And additionally, you're spending a pretty significant amount of time commuting. That adds up to well over an hour and a half each day. So it sounds like on top of that, you also very much have appreciated the opportunity, appreciate it that, you know, that he was investing in you, but feel like for all of these reasons, no longer aligned. Am I getting this stuff right or what would you change or add? Okay.

Katie 33:59
You got it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:59
Okay. Could you tell him exactly that? Because I just... I took your words and just show them back with you.

Katie 34:07
I don't know... I think it's, to be honest, too far gone.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:12
Too far gone in what way? What do you mean?

Katie 34:15
In the way that like, I don't know if anything that he could do now would make me want to stay.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:19
I think that's okay. I think you could share that too.

Katie 34:22
So and that's the thing is like I would, I guess, plan or how I could see things unfolding is this job that I'm interviewing for is, I know that pays more, it's a 10 minute drive from my house, it has room for growth. I know people work in the company, they only have good things to say about it. It's been ranked one of the top countries in the world, as you know, best employers is to kind of go to him, and say, "Listen. I'm not happy. These are reasons why. I've had the job opportunity." But I just don't know how he's gonna react since he'll say, "Well, I just pay for your schooling." And the schooling that I've gone through is not even applicable to the job I've made to be moving into.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:07
Totally agree. So let me back up half a step here. So one of the things that I heard you say at the very beginning, is that "I don't want to burn bridges." And I, you didn't say exactly this, but my impression was that you wanted to get, you want it to be able to have the conversation in a way where it would allow him to understand and create the most productive situation coming out of it as you leave the role.

Katie 35:40
I just want to do it right. Essentially.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:42
Okay. So if you...

Katie 35:43
It's like under respectful, do it right.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:45
Absolutely. So I think the most respectful way that you can do this, as you are having that conversation at whatever point in time with him, that you share the exact same things, the truth with him.

Katie 36:00
And I would.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:01
And so all of these pieces, I think, are really important for him to know and understand. And all of these pieces are exactly how you feel about it. And all of these pieces are the real reasons why you would be interested in leaving. And I think that when you don't share those, then that's going to be higher likelihood that it dissolves into a bad situation, or bad feelings or other things along those lines. When you don't share those, then it is higher opportunity to build the bridge or burn the bridges. When you do share those, then that creates a more trusting situation, I think the most trusting situation could be though, if you went to him sooner rather than later before you even had a job offer and shared some of these things too. Which might not always be the most comfortable situation. However, if you want to create a good situation out of the outcome. And that's something that is really important to you, then you have to set the other person up for a good situation, too. It doesn't work one way like, you know, like, drop a good situation on the other person. And like at the last minute necessarily, you have to create a good situation in every sense of it. So let's talk through part of that and how that could be possible. And it may not be but let's try and spend a couple of minutes here and try and determine how this could look and how this could be a real possibility to make it the best possible situation for you and him. Okay, so I know that you are... I can tell in your voice that you're looking at this other job as the out.

Katie 38:01
Yeah, and I'm still like, I'm not putting all my eggs in this basket either. Like, I'm still seeing what's out there. But it's really just come on so fast. Like I saw the job opportunity, I know a friend who works there, he sent my resume and they're like, "Want a phone interview. Can you come in next week?" So it's all happening really fast. I didn't expect it to happen this fast. So I'm just kind of trying to prepare to say, and when I talked to them yesterday, I said, "When is your anticipated start date?" And they said "We don't know yet. It could be like..." so I'm just kind of trying to prepare if it happens sooner than later. Because I didn't expect this to happen so fast. And it just kind of happened help that we have planned our conversation for today. So I thought that was you know, I believe things happen for reasons and I thought that was pretty ironic that how our conversation played out. So yeah, I'm like really seriously taking this opportunity, to take this job as a potential opportunity seriously.

Scott Anthony Barlow 39:00
My experience is also that, especially when you go looking for it, you can probably find other opportunities just as fast as well. It's crazy thing once you start putting your effort and time and energy into going after something and you're more of a go getter as you said anyways. So like when you go get, you're gonna start getting is what will happen. So, you know, I come back to that because I want to make sure that, again, we don't have you end up in this role only because it looks like a really good thing without actually validating that it is in fact, a great thing. Plus this impacts, I think, how and when you talk to your current boss. What would you see as the... or what hesitancy would you have in going and having a conversation with him tomorrow to raise some of these issues?

Katie 40:04
I don't know. I just hasn't this would be like, just being a bad taste in his mouth. I guess, I know I would be disappointing him, but just, I guess that's kind of it. Like, I know, he can have a temper. I don't want to do like losers shit, essentially. But I don't know, I think I'll just be like, I've told him that I was, like I've said I'm, you know, I'm bored. I want to be challenged more sort of thing. But I just think the fact that I'm still technically finishing up this course, is my biggest thing is that I'm not like, I have three more weeks, I've done my school, I've one more certification exam left. So I think the fact that I'm still in it, but this was like, you know, six months after I've been done it, I think it would have been a bit different.

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:49
Because he already paid for it. Like it's, the bill already been paid...

Katie 40:53
Yeah, like tuition been paid and everything. Yeah. So that's what I do, like if I would approach him and say, you know, I'm so grateful, thankful for, you know, the investment, like, do I offer. It's like they don't want me to pay for it. I don't want to, you know what I mean? But like, do I offer some sort of compensation to him?

Scott Anthony Barlow 41:10
What would it take for you to feel really good coming out of this conversation, no matter what like...?

Katie 41:16
I think just some saying, like, he knows me really well. I think him just saying, "You know what Katie, I completely understand where you're coming from, I can see that." sort of thing and being like, "I'm proud of you. But like, I'm happy for you, wherever the road takes you sort of thing." You know what I mean, in terms of your career growth, but I don't think he's gonna say that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 41:36
What are the reasons you perceive that may not?

Katie 41:39
Because he's paid for my schooling. I think he'd be like, pissed, essentially.

Scott Anthony Barlow 41:45
Was that because you'd be pissed?

Katie 41:47
No. I think he would be because he spend all this money on me. And I'm not even going to be able to give back to the company with my newfound certification.

Scott Anthony Barlow 41:58
If you left tomorrow, will you feel good about leaving the company? Let's say that you had the perfect opportunity, bla bla bla. Will you feel good at leaving at that point?

Katie 42:09
To be honest, at this point? I'd feel good about leaving. Yeah. I feel bad, in a sense of like, essentially them wasting their money on me. I kind of feel bad, but I am at the point that I would not feel bad about leaving now. They definitely treated me very well. Tell you the truth, but it's just not the right fit for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 42:28
Yeah, totally.

Katie 42:29
Right. It's nothing against them. And that's the thing. It's not you, it's me, essentially. Situation.

Scott Anthony Barlow 42:36
Yeah. And we know how good that feels.

Katie 42:39
Yeah, exactly. So that's... If I don't know, I wouldn't, really.

Scott Anthony Barlow 42:44
Part of what I'm trying to get at here is there are some deep seated reasons here why this was a thing for you. Why originally, you contacted us in the first place, right? And I want to make sure that I'm getting all of them for you so that we can create a situation where it is most likely to result in what would allow you to feel good on all fronts. And so that's probably the reason why I'm kind of going around and asking for every angle on this particular type of questioning. When you say he has a temper, what do you mean by that?

Katie 43:22
Like he can, like he will... like if something doesn't go his way, or if he's not one of his mood to get sense, he will like, he's ever not yelled at me. But he's yelled at my receptionist before. Like, just lost it. And she didn't do anything wrong. It was just this thing with a patient wasn't happy. This is situational. He wasn't in a good mood and just kind of freaked out on her.

Scott Anthony Barlow 43:45
This is a frequent thing or like one thing?

Katie 43:49
Not frequent, but it's been known to happen more than once, was not a one off.

Scott Anthony Barlow 43:54
For other types of you know, I would call it more like conflict type situations that you had with him.

Katie 44:00
No, I've never had any conflicts. No.

Scott Anthony Barlow 44:02
Okay. Here's a couple thoughts that I have. I think that he's going to feel the best if you can set him up the best for what he need. So I don't know if, like what would happen if you left here? What would... like how would that change his world? Like where's he going to have to like compensate? Is he gonna have to work additional hours, like are there other people on the team? Like how is this going to impact the world?

Katie 44:31
To be honest, like, I don't really know, because like, I'm not that busy. Like, it's not like I'm... sometimes like today, for example, I obviously like I stepped out today in a doctor's appointment to talk to you. But like, I'm seeing one person in nine hours today. So like, I don't like he probably would have hired somebody maybe part time, I would think, but it's not like I'm swamped, and he relies on me for that much. I feel.

Scott Anthony Barlow 44:57
So if you left then like other people, there are other people there to take on that load.

Katie 45:04
Yes, there are. They wouldn't be happy about it. But there would be, yes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 45:07
Okay. So it's not like he would have to immediately train somebody do and all business would stop or...

Katie 45:15
No, like, they want to hire somebody new, but they could get by.

Scott Anthony Barlow 45:21
Is there anything else that would be a big deal? I don't know, like, just the whole education thing. I think that there is probably a little bit of a risk that it could be, you know, a big issue if you went and had a conversation, and he could perceive it wrongly, I don't perceive that risk is super, super high based on everything that you've told me. But may I share what I would do if I were in your shoes for just a minute? And then from that we can figure out what is the plan that makes sense for you in your world. Does that sound good?

Katie 46:00
Yeah, absolutely.

Scott Anthony Barlow 46:01
Okay, so here's what I would do if I were found myself and woke up in your shoes. And I think initially, well, let me ask you one more question here really quick, for the remaining time that you're there, would you prefer to be doing things that are more interesting while you're there? Or would you prefer to just suck it up and go?

Katie 46:25
I think probably a suck it up and be honest with you. I can't see myself laughing more than six months there without mentally going insane. 'Cuz I already have.

Scott Anthony Barlow 46:36
I think I would go and I would have this conversation with him initially, and be able to share, you know, here's what I've been experiencing; I really, really appreciate all the time that I spent here. And I really appreciate you investing in me. And I really appreciate all of the things that have come along with that. Also, at the same time, I'm finding that, you know, what I've shared with you in the past is that I'm bored. I am not experiencing the challenges that I'm interested in experiencing. And I wanted to come and talk to you about that. Also, because I'm trying to figure out what I should be doing to resolve that. And I wanted to be upfront and honest with you about that, because I appreciate how much you have, you know, how much you have done for me. And I also know that I can't keep doing this over the long term in the exact same way. So I'm trying to figure out what I'm going to be doing about that, and wanted to be able to share that with you and have a direct conversation. Now, this doesn't mean I'm leaving tomorrow or anything like that. It does mean I'm trying to consider what would be right for me. So I felt like if I owned the business, and I had worked with somebody for quite a while and everything that I would want somebody to come to me and talk about this too, and share how they're feeling so and the reasons why. So I'm more than happy to have any other conversation or answer questions or anything else along those lines. However, you know, that's what I'm feeling right now. And I've recognized that I need to do something differently. I do not know what that is at the present moment. But...

Katie 48:47
But something has to change.

Scott Anthony Barlow 48:48
But something has to change. And that's part of what I'm working on to figure out. So that's what I wanted to share with you and I'm more than happy to keep you posted along the way as I figure out some of that stuff. But right now, you know, this is what I would have appreciated if I were running the business and what I would want somebody to come to me and talk about. And that's the type of conversation that I would have. I don't think it would make sense to say "Hey, I'm going to leave in two months or something" like because you don't even know that. That's not the real truth. Like and I don't want you to, even though you would like to leave sooner rather than later, like it's not truthful to tell him that, "Look, I'm out of here" Because you don't know when or exactly where or how so I think you can share what is in fact, the truth. Yeah.

Katie 49:42
So like, let's say, though, like this job that I'm currently applying for says to me, "Hey, we want to offer you the job. Can you start, you know, in a month?" Like honestly, I wouldn't say like... I would say, "I have to think about it." I wouldn't say yes, right on the spot. But in that case, I'll have to think about it. And let's say I decide, yes, I want to do and I have not yet had that conversation with him.

Scott Anthony Barlow 50:07
For one, you definitely call us back up, and we help you negotiate for the new role and everything like that.

Katie 50:17
Yeah. Because like, it's there seem to be like going quite quickly with it. So I don't know, you know, what I mean? How quick it's all gonna happen, if it does.

Scott Anthony Barlow 50:26
Yeah, I think that, and again, this is assuming you had this conversation like tomorrow. And, by the way, if he did that, at any point in time, I think that the way that you do that is you contact him and say, "Hey, I have something really important that I want to talk to you about." And you actually schedule a time. So you're not interrupted by stuff and all of those types of things. So you can actually have an important conversation without, I don't know him taking seven phone calls or whatever else he needs. But you know, whenever that takes place, I think you share whatever the most current version of the truth is, at that point in time, if they've made you a job offer at that point in time where like they have given you like real salary and everything like that, and it looks like it could be a good fit, then I think it's appropriate to share with him. But if you learn...

Katie 51:11
"Listen, I've had a job opportunity."

Scott Anthony Barlow 51:13
Yeah, absolutely. And you can say that. I've got, you know, I've had another job opportunity that I'm considering right now, I don't know if it's the right fit, I haven't accepted it. But I wanted to be very upfront and honest with you that I was even, you know, even considering something else. And I think that's how the conversation gets adjusted. And then later on, I think, as you know more truth, you have additional conversation with him, about, you know, what you're moving to, and as you figure out more of what you need too, then I think you can be more transparent with him about that as well, that's going to help him. And then I think before you leave, if you can share with him some of those other pieces, too. I don't think it's relevant in this first conversation, necessarily. But I think it's a big part of it, and would be useful for him to understand that, hey, part of the reason why I'm leaving is because many other people here, you know, feel like they're underpaid, they complain about stuff. And they don't really do anything about it. And although that's fine for them, and they seem to be reasonably happy doing that, that's not something that I'm interested in being surrounded by over the long term. And I think that you can be very transparent with him, because as a business owner, I know, I'd want to know about that. So I can actually do something about it, as well. So I think that, that sets you up for both ways. If you don't have another job offer or anything else, then obviously you don't have that piece of the conversation. But as you get another job offer, I think you do him the courtesy to wrap back around and continue to share more and more. And I think that that's the best way to have the highest chance for this to come out where he has still has a really high degree of respect for you. And although he may not like the decision, he can still feel good about how it was resolved, as opposed to even if he's not excited about, you know, I just dumped a bunch of cash into you, and now you're going. But part of that is the risk that you take as a business owner, as well, that you acknowledged.

Katie 53:20
Right, exactly. But he don't have to do it. I didn't ask him to do it. He offered, which is very generous. obvious.

Scott Anthony Barlow 53:25
Yeah, absolutely. Does that help you by the experience for you and a plan for you to make that happen?

Katie 53:36
Yeah. It's kind of ironic that I actually have this opportunity coming up, but when I didn't, I would, I was, you know, planning on having a conversation, I think with him anyways, just, you know, the best way to go about it, essentially. Now my one question is, for you, as you know, with this interview that I have next week, if they ask for references, I can't really give them my current employer because they have no idea that I'm applying for any job or have an interview.

Scott Anthony Barlow 54:04
I found... and obviously, I'm a little biased in a lot of different ways. But I found for myself, that's one of the big benefits to having these types of conversations as soon as you're feeling like you leave where you can have an open conversation where your employer is maybe even supporting you in going someplace else. I've done that a lot of times personally, and we've helped many hundreds of people do that in ways where they didn't think it was going to be possible and we're super nervous about it. My experience is that typically the benefits of having a conversation like this with him, even if you don't have all the information sooner rather than later usually outweigh the risks. Not always. And that's part of the reason why I was asking about the, you know, temper and everything like that. I don't perceive that there is a massive risk here. There's a little bit.

Katie 54:51
Yeah, I don't know, I just think... like my interviews on Tuesday, like a series of interviews on Tuesday, and I'm like, at the call and set to work in order to go to this interview, because I think he would not be pleased to know that I'm interviewing somewhere. Like, I don't think... I mean, I just don't know very well. Like it just because it's so short notice.

Scott Anthony Barlow 55:14
Yeah. I don't know whether it would be or not. My experience is that in order to be given grace, you have to give other people trust and grace to be able to have the opportunity to be read as well. So that's something that I can't decide for you.

Katie 55:30
Yeah, no, of course, I just wasn't sure what your experience in it is.

Scott Anthony Barlow 55:35
My experience for myself, and for a number of the other people that you know, I've worked with personally is that I usually look at it in terms of like, what am I going to feel good about at the end of the day. For me, that has always resulted, and this doesn't necessarily mean it is for you, but it has always resulted for me personally, in sharing much more than I'm comfortable with the other parties. And typically, that's my boss or my boss's boss, and taking, in many cases, much larger risk with that type of level of sharing. And it allows me personally, to be able to sleep at night for my own benefit. But those are things that I get tied up in for myself and my own personal expectations. And what I do isn't necessarily right for everybody.

Katie 56:32
Of course, like I have another like, reference I could work, or reference I could use but obviously, it's not to be like I worked there part time, but it's not my current main employer. Essentially.

Scott Anthony Barlow 56:45
References usually aren't that big of a deal. Honestly. You know, there are certain industries where it's a huge deal and certain people, where it's a huge deal. But most of the time...

Katie 56:55
It's not that big of a deal.

Scott Anthony Barlow 56:56
Where you could have a conversation say, look, I think that, you know, my current employer...

Katie 57:01
And I feel honest with them

Scott Anthony Barlow 57:02
Yeah, exactly.

Katie 57:03
Yeah, be honest.

Scott Anthony Barlow 57:04
Honesty is the best policy.

Katie 57:05
And saying is that that's my plan was to say, like, my current employer does not know that I'm applying for this job. So therefore, that's reason why I can't give you but I have another employer I've worked for years that would be able to provide your reference. And the reason they got my resume was through a reference was through one of their current employers. So technically, that kind of works as a reference in itself. Right.

Scott Anthony Barlow 57:26
Sure. I would place less talk in that. Generally, references are, I don't have a easy way to put it, I guess. But generally, references are like a stupid people check. Because everybody who's going to put down a reference is going to put down somebody good unless they're just, I don't know... No concept. So... does that help?

Katie 57:51
Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 57:51
Okay. Did we hit what you originally wanted out of this time?

Katie 57:55
I think so. I feel a lot better. I think for me, going into this interview on Tuesday. So...

Scott Anthony Barlow 58:01
Amazing.

Katie 58:02
Is that how to approach and whatnot, and I don't think I'll get the chance to see because usually Tuesdays are the days that I do see him anyways, and I have to, "call in sick" for this interview, which I feel bad about doing, but I don't really have another option.

Scott Anthony Barlow 58:18
Well, you could call him today and set up a, you know, half an hour to have that discussion. sooner rather than later. And then...

Katie 58:26
Yeah, I could try it for Monday, maybe. Depends what his schedule is like, though.

Scott Anthony Barlow 58:30
Yeah. I'm sure if you said it's important, that my experience is that people will make time for you when you declare, it's important. "Okay, I really have something that's important for me to talk to you about. That would take about 30 minutes of your time. Is there any way we can find any minutes between now and Monday? What could look like for you?"

Katie 58:53
Yeah, I was put a sense of urgency on it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 58:56
Absolutely. Well, it is important.

Scott Anthony Barlow 58:59
Hey, let us know what you thought about that session with Katie, that opportunity to be a fly on the wall with an actual coaching session. And email us: hello@happentoyourcareer.com and let us know what you thought. But there's one more piece of the story too, because it's been a little while since Katie and I talked. And a few weeks after that, she actually sent me an email. Here's the email, she said, "Hey, Scott, I just wanted to update you since we talked a couple of weeks ago. I took your advice and I talked to my boss, telling him how I wasn't enjoying work, wasn't challenged enough, etc. And it could not have gone better. He's actually recommended me for a job as a sales rep for one of our suppliers. That is a more challenging, more involved position. He realizes that the position I'm now in his company does not have longevity and room for me to continuously grow and I now have a job interview with that other company. I just wanted to thank you for all your advice and help. Thanks, Katie." This stuff with your career is messy, it's emotional, it is a little bit scary at times. And it's something that, quite frankly, you shouldn't have to go through alone. So I really hope that that call, listening to Katie and her situation in being able to work through that, and also even seen some of what happened in the end, because if you remember, she was actually quite a bit, shall we say, not excited to go and have that type of conversation with her boss. And she found the courage and she did it. And clearly it's paid off for her. And that's very much what we see along the way, being willing to have that kind of vulnerability and seek out help. And being able to do it in a way that is going to be productive and honest and live within your values and your integrity. We see very, very, very few times, where that ends up being a negative. In fact, we see so many more stories when we work with people like Katie, where it comes out as a huge positive. And by the way, listening to this type of call, or the one that we did with Robert, back on episode 243, that should give you an accurate picture of how my team can help you identify career desires. And then use what we know about psychology, what we know about careers to help you take your best steps forward. And if you want to live your best life, you can always go at any point in time over to happentoyourcareer.com, click on coaching, tell us more about your situation, and schedule a call with our team, our Director of Success for Students and Clients. And we'll help you figure out the very best way that we can help. But just like Katie, you know, I think the more that you find those ways to be able to be honest, and be able to live within your own values and not ignore that and not push that aside, even though it's scary. And regardless of whether you're working with us, we're working with anybody else or just, you know, seeking out a mentor or something else, get that type of help, because this stuff doesn't come easy. And it's always much, much more like a marathon than a sprint. We have so much more coming up in store for you. Next week, right here on Happen To Your Career.

Mo Chanmugham 1:02:30
Status and money just don't bring you the happiness that you think it would. And I think a lot of people have to learn that lesson first. So they can then go on and past that fulfilling job is going to be a much better fit and much more enjoyable.

Scott Anthony Barlow 1:02:43
That's Mo Chanmugam. He is a coach on our team here at Happen To Your Career. He's going to join us next week to be able to answer a whole bunch of your questions. And he's got a really interesting story himself. Until next week, we'll see you later. Adios. I am out.

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How Perseverance is the Only Thing Standing Between You and What You Want

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In 2003, an animated film hit the theaters and captured the hearts of viewers everywhere. This movie, with a score of 99% on Rotten Tomatoes, not only thrilled our kids, but gave adults a motivating reminder about how to react when life gets tough. 

Here’s the premise. 

A clownfish named Marlin has lost his son Nemo. As he ventures out into the unknown ocean on his search and rescue mission, he finds a travel companion in Dory, a regal blue tang with a serious memory problem. 

Dory, amidst her silliness and flaws, lives her life based on a wise mantra. In one of the most recognizable lines of any film, Dory tries to calm down a flustered and grumpy Marlin with the following words: 

“When life gets you down, you know what you gotta do? Just keep swimming, just keep swimming. Just keep swimming, swimming, swimming. What do we do? We swim, swim.”   

As your eyes wandered over the words, you probably read in the sing-song voice of Dory, also known as Ellen Degeneres. The wisdom behind the mantra transcends age levels. I can think back to plenty of moments in my own life where I felt frustrated or confused and needed to just keep swimming.   

Many of our students in Career Change Bootcamp feel this way about their career. They hit a mental barrier of some sort, maybe the need for perfection or fear of breaking the rules, and they feel stuck. But progress, even imperfect and slow progress, is essential for reaching goals.   

In last week’s post, we talked about the essential nature of celebrating small wins on the road to success. To get these small wins, you have to keep swimming. Nobody knows this better than my new friend, Dan Schawbel. 

Over the last few years, Dan’s established himself as a leading voice in career and work trends as well as a NYT bestselling author. When asked how he finds success, Dan says he’s learned to lean into his strengths and just keep pushing. 

For instance, Dan has interviewed over 2000 people for his podcast. Guests include Donald Trump, Tony Robbins, Anthony Bourdain, Condoleezza Rice, Rachel Ray, and Steve Harvey. But none of those guests came easily. 

To quote Dan, he says,

Sometimes I’ll stand up and point to the wall and say out loud “just keep going, just keep going.” That really is the secret. You have to keep shrugging off the negative, mistakes, and failures and just keep going. Life’s too short to look back. You can learn from the past, but don’t let it hold you back down. Just keep going.

  Want to know how long it took Dan to land interviews with those celebrities?  

  • Chelsea Handler took nine months.
  • Anthony Bourdain took three years.
  • Tony Robbins and Donald Trump each took over six years of attempts.

  If that’s not perseverance, I don’t know what is.   

To share another example, Dan’s latest book, Back to Human: How Great Leaders Create Connection in the Age of Isolation drops today. When he was trying to get published, Dan was turned down by every single publisher he reached out to EXCEPT ONE. How easy would it have been to give up after the first rejection? Or the second? Or the fifth?!   

According to Dan and Dory, you gotta just keep swimming. Now, back to what Dan said about strengths. If you’ve been listening to our podcast for very long, you’ve probably heard us mention the importance of signature strengths. (If this is your first time hearing this, take a moment to look over this free guide on using your strengths to find career happiness.) Research from Gallup found that if you know and use your strengths, you’re six times as likely to be engaged at work, about 8% more productive in your role, three times as likely to have an excellent quality of life, and six times as likely to do what you do best every day. 

I like those odds. In Dan’s case, he realized he’s great at short format interviews. By keeping his conversations under fifteen minutes, he kept his anxiety at bay and increased the chances of getting a “yes” from interview guests. 

Along with recognizing his strengths, Dan cut out his weaknesses. For instance, he realized he wasn’t a strong designer, so he now pays a skilled graphic designer to complete these needs. Instead of trying to improve his low points, he focused on honing his own natural abilities.   

As you search for a role that fits your unique desires, strengths, style, and salary requests, you’ll probably hit a moment where you need to remember Dan’s advice: Focus on your strengths, and just keep swimming. (Okay, that second one is from Dory. But close enough!)   

To hear more about Dan’s experience becoming a leading voice for millennials, press play on the podcast player above.

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Dan Schawbel 00:00
I just knew. I just knew it. I knew it. I knew it. And I just put so much energy. I was working over 100 hours a week, nights and weekends, I would comment on every single blog that mentioned personal branding. I was just so dedicated to it.

Introduction 00:07
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Dan Schawbel 00:14
Can you imagine what would happen if you picked up your phone right now and tried to talk to, say, Tony Robbins, or Donald Trump or Condoleezza Rice, you'd probably hit 100 foot brick wall, which is exactly what happened to Dan.

Dan Schawbel 00:20
And if 99 people reject you, like one of my early research studies, 99 companies said "no", but that one company said "yes".

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:27
That's Dan Schawbel. He's a self proclaimed serial entrepreneur, fortune 500 consultant, he's a New York Times best selling author. Dan tells everyone his life mission is to support his generation from student to CEO. And his fascination with tomorrow makes him a leading voice on workforce trends. And that's one of the things we're going to talk about today. But he didn't get the reputation he carries today without hitting a few speed bumps along the way.

Dan Schawbel 01:10
Everything I've done has been rejected by every, for instance, book publishers, every publisher besides one, and I've been doing books since I was 23. And each one is more successful than the last and it's still rejected by every publisher besides one.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:18
When I asked Dan what he credits his success to, he gives me two major areas: perseverance, and strength. And you can listen to exactly how that actually works later on in the interview. But before we get into all that, I wanted to know more. I wanted to know where it started out with Dan Schawbel.

Dan Schawbel 02:03
It was in 2017. And I was at all day event training session at my company, EMC Corporation, I was in online marketing at the time, and we had to spend eight hours learning everything we could about over 2000 products that the company was selling. And these are very complex products, meaning that after that course, I came home and I started questioning my life because I was so inundated, I didn't even remember one product the second I got home. So I started Googling. I'm like, "Oh, there's got to be something out there for me, what am I missing." And I was googling... because my background was in marketing. I did marketing in bachelor's degree from Bentley University. It was just Bentley college back then. And I was like this gotta be something out there. And so I typed in marketing and self marketing and self branding and branding. And then eventually I got to personal branding, I came across Tom Peters famous article "The Brand Called You" which was written for the cover of Fast Company magazine on August 1st 2007. And it's the reason why Fast Company took off in the first place and people are reading it today. And he is the father of business books. The reason why there are business books is because his book in search of excellent created the market for business books. There is no market until something sells a million copies or is viewed a certain amount of times, and he created that. And it's not like the article gave me the idea for personal branding, it confirmed my beliefs and validated my opinions. During college, I had a CD portfolio of work, a business card, a website, all of these marketing materials I was using to sell myself in interviews and I kept landing internships and eventually landed a job. And so everything that he was talking about really hit home to me, especially because I was really early into social media, my first blog was called "Driven Succeed" I created in October 2006. And I was writing 12 times a week for it. And once I read his article, I was like, "Oh my god, I can be him for my generation." And I had such conviction when this happened. I knew what I could become. I saw the future. And I was 1,000% committed to this journey. Wherever it would take me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:29
That's super interesting. So what do you think was it about that time then that caused you to have such conviction and be able to see some of that? Because as we've interacted with lots of different people from lots of different backgrounds, there's a couple of different ways you can go, you can go with the, "Okay, I've got the conviction, let's get rolling already." Or the opposite way, which is, "Hey, how would I even do this necessarily?" So what do you think was it that put you in that place where you're like, "let's make this happen."?

Dan Schawbel 04:58
I was already doing it, I just didn't have the term for it. So thinking of personal branding that empowered me because, "Oh, I finally have the term. I can run with this." And so I took my blog "Driven Succeed". And I repositioned it as the personal branding blog, personalbrandingblog.com are still exist today. I think we have over 5,700 blog posts on there. And so I really believed in it so much that I built a whole community around personal branding for my generation, but other generations would read the materials too. So I had a personal branding blog, personal branding magazine, personal branding TV, personal branding everything, I bought, like, 40 domain names back then. I even still own personalbranding.com, if anyone wants to buy it. But I was already writing and talking about personal branding and practicing what I preach, I just needed the term to validate what I was doing. And to have it make sense when I communicate it to others. And this is right around the time when social media was getting traction, people were talking about web 2.0 and social media. And so my skills really learning about social media firsthand by having a blog, being... I was one of the first people to ever to write about how to use LinkedIn to build your personal brand for sites like Mashable and Wall Street Journal, because I was really figuring out how to use it as a 20 to 23 year old. And so all of this came together, and I was just like, "this is what I'm meant to do." And as many times as I was bullied and made fun of between cyber bullying and even friends of returnee brothers being like what is wrong with you, I just knew. I just knew it. I knew it. I knew it. And I just put so much energy. I was working over 100 hours a week, nights and weekends, I would comment on every single blog that mentioned personal branding. I was just so dedicated to it. And what most people don't know is when I started self publishing personal branding magazine, I was doing everything, everything being I was managing 100 different contributors to editors, I published it, I marketed it, I promoted it, we had a subscription model, so I was growing that, I did everything. I designed it, I did everything. And by doing that I learned a lot about business, I learned about my strengths. For instance, I learned that I'm not the best graphic designer in the world. So over the past 10 years, I have hired a graphic designer, I realized that eventually I wasn't going to have time to manage it. So eventually, it folded and I was too emotionally attached, I could have sold it to another company and I didn't. So I learned a lot of business lessons through going in creating that magazine. Through the blog, I learned so much. I never wanted to be an entrepreneur because when I was growing up, my dad had a business with 100 employees and his employees in the food distributing industry would steal from him. And I was like, "This is not really for me." But the blog told me that there was something... it was like grooming me to be an entrepreneur because I was connecting with people who were commenting on my blog ended up being the sponsors for the blog and the magazine. It was my way of figuring out who else out there cares about this topic, who wants to be part of this, who wants to invest in it. And the blog was my training ground for everything I've done since, that's why you will see the personal branding blogs still be alive in 30 years from now because I feel like it reminds me of where I've come from. And it's to support the industry that after Tom Peters established, like, I helped push this to a whole new generation. So that was phase one of my career was around personal branding. And then phase two is, you know, I think everyone needs to evolve their brand, evolve their career. And I started to focus on millennials and how they could be successful as they started to get jobs in advance in their careers. So that's why I wrote promote yourself. So each book I've written helps people get to the next phase of their career, "Me 2.0" is not just the first book on how to use social media to build your career, but it's how do you get your first job when you graduate school. And this was happening because I write the book after I've already accomplished something. So I already had a job when I graduated, and then wrote that book. And then the second book was called "Promote Yourself", it's for people who have a job who want to get ahead of that job and eventually become a manager. So I did a study with American Express on what managers look for when they promote, which are almost all soft skills like teamwork, ability, ability to communicate effectively, and prioritize work. And then now, with back to human, it's really a leadership book for the next generation. And each book emphasizes the human connection more. For instance, the first book was heavily focused on technology. The second book was a touch on technology, but there was 40 plus pages out of the 280 pages about soft skills. And then this book is way more about how to build human connections in the workplace without using technology as a crutch, as a leader and the team member. And so my mission in life that I realized from focusing on personal branding to millennials is to position myself as someone to help a whole generation through that their whole career trajectory from student to CEO. That's my mission in life and that depicts what I write, what I focused on, and really how I spend my time and money. But I only realized this after many, many years of seeing what was working, seeing what topics that I was clinging to, feedback I got, and then how I positioned myself almost in my mind of "Woah. There's a greater picture, maybe I'm meant to help this generation throughout their whole career path." Just like I was growing and advancing my career, I can grow with this group. And if this helps people who are older or in different geographies, that would be amazing. But my goal is how do I help people who are kind of like me, or want to become leaders in their career and be successful throughout their path using all the resources that I have established through my journey.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:46
So let me ask you about a couple portions of that. And I definitely want to come back and talk about how it's evolved. I think that is really important. However, one thing you mentioned earlier was, you were spending tons and tons of time and energy in a portion of this, and eventually it folded at some point along the line. So I wanted to ask you a bit about what that was like, as that was happening. And everybody has some type of phase, maybe not in that same way, by any means, but everybody has some type of phase that ends in one way or another. And I think that the opportunity there is that can be a really negative experience, or that can be turned into a really positive experience. So what was that like for you initially? And what did you do to make it a positive experience? Which clearly it sounds like it was.

Dan Schawbel 11:34
I knew in my head that I could not do the magazine for the rest of my life. And I had an employee back then who told me, he's like, "Dan, what are you doing with this magazine? It's taking up so much your time." Because I had an events business, I was doing so many different things around this topic. And it was stretched so thin. And when he did that, it was almost like, I needed someone to tell me to quit the magazine, I couldn't do it on my own. And then I went through the first phase was realizing that I need to stop publishing the magazine, focusing on the last issue, because I want to end in glory. And then coming to the realization that now I'm gonna have more time and thinking about how I can best allocate that time to help build a brighter future and support everything that I was doing. So I think that when one door closes, another door can open. And you can reallocate your time on to things that make more sense, given different objectives that you have and goals that you set. For me, I've always had to evolve. Sometimes I have to drop something like, for instance, I'm no longer writing for Forbes. But now because I'm not writing for them, I have enough time to build an Instagram following. And I have a podcast called Five Questions with Dan Schawbel. And if I was just writing for Forbes, I wouldn't have time to build all of these great assets that I'm very excited about. So sometimes, something either happens to you or you quit. And that can actually be a good thing. So it might not be smart for you to do something for 10 years, because that will eat up so much your time. So you're not spending it doing other things that might be more valuable, and that could bring you more joy and happiness.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:11
How have you decided that? Like, let's take the example of Forbes, right? So I know that writing for something like that, or just spending lots of time writing on one particular area or project takes, I mean, even if you are an incredibly fast writer, and very gifted and everything like that, still takes time and energy and creative energy, right? So how do you decide on any of those things, but we can use that as an example, to quit and move on to something else?

Dan Schawbel 13:44
Yeah, I think it's because I was getting less traction, I had been writing for them for seven years. And it's just what I was doing was not aligning with what they were looking for, and not aligning with where I was going. And then, you know, I was just noticing a lot of my peers were growing Instagram, or growing all these podcasts and really enjoying it. And I had a podcast in 2012 and 2013. But it lead with a sponsor, the show is too complicated, it ate up too much my time. So it didn't work out. And now I feel like I have the right concept at the right time that plays to my strengths. So it's been a ton of self awareness. For instance, I suffer from a pretty extreme amount of anxiety. So I've realized that the reason why, throughout the past 12 years, all of my 2000 plus interviews have always been about 15 minutes or less with five questions is because it's very hard for me to interview someone for an extended period of time, like I get very anxious and unsettled. And so I'm quadrupling down on who I am by having these short punchy interviews because it plays to my strengths and who I am as a human and how I operate. So like I think as you get older if you really pay attention to who you are and what makes you you and special and unique, you can be much more effective, right? I know what I'm not good at, I know what I am good at, I won't do graphic design, because I'm not the best at that. I find people who have already accomplished something that I want to accomplish, and I align myself with them. But I also serve as a resource for others, right? So not just asking for advice, but also giving advice and creating a whole culture of giving and support system because as you advance in your career, things would do not get easier, right? A lot of people see as a successful person or someone who's accomplished something great, and they view them as having an easy life.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:32
No other problems, right? Problems just disappear. And all of a sudden, it's easy. Yeah.

Dan Schawbel 15:37
The problems disappear. But new problems are created at the same time. Yeah. And someone who's ambitious, like us, we push ourselves harder, and to get to that next level, it's more challenging. And we have to constantly put out content, reinvent ourselves, do things differently test. And so the only way to learn and advance in your career is to throw yourself into that situation. So many people are counting on reading a book a week, or just listening to a podcast or reading a blog to solve all their problems. You have to actually act and initiate. If you're not doing it, if I didn't spend... God knows how many hours writing 12 blog posts a week, commenting on every blog, producing a magazine and doing everything needed to make that happen, having the full time job as I created the first social media position, and like almost any company, especially a big company back in 2007, like, if I wasn't doing all of that, how would I know what I'm good at, what I'm not good at, what to outsource, what to do in house or projects to work on, what to avoid, who to surround myself with, who do not. So like, the more you do, the younger you are, the better. But obviously, it's never too late to put the effort in and test things and figure out a new direction to go in.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:51
Well, here's what I'm taking from that. In your case, I mean, you had to have an extreme amount of inputs in order to get out an extreme amount of knowledge, essentially, useful knowledge, valuable knowledge about yourself, so that you can double down in those areas that really are truly working for you and allow you to be more of you, for lack of a better phrase.

Dan Schawbel 17:13
I always lean into what's working for me. So for instance, this the interview format, I've done over 2000 times. But think of how many people I've reached out to in order to get the 2000 interviews, probably 5 or 6000 people over the past 12 years, and I get a lot of "no's", but I'm so patient, and I just constantly reach out and I constantly try and repackage and promote. So, like, I interviewed Donald Trump, but it took over six years. Tony Robbins took over six years. Chelsea Handler took over nine months. I've had Anthony Bourdain took three years, but I'm willing to constantly try and get what I'm looking for. It just takes time. And I've learned to be extremely patient with the time because there's always someone else you can interview. For most of what I've done in my life, most everything I've done has been rejected by every, for instance, book publishers, every publisher besides one, and I've been doing books since I was 23. And each one is more successful than the last. And it's still rejected by every publisher besides one. And so I think the best things in life, the things that are most gratifying, you really have to earn, you have to sacrifice, you have to fail, you have to get rejected in order to really appreciate them. And once you get that opportunity, you're going to naturally maximize it because you're so grateful that you have the opportunity. And so I think just over the past few years, I've finally got to a point after 12 years that happy with what I've done to a point where if nothing else happens, I'm still good. But it's not, like, it's not going to demotivate me I'm still motivated, but I'm finally secure in what I've done, and I figured out kind of who I am and what I'm meant to do. And the only way to do that, like I can't keep reiterating is to do as much as you can to test things, to not be afraid of failure, to reach out with the attitude that you have nothing to lose, I will reach out to anyone... I don't even question in my head anymore. Anytime I even stopped for a second to think if I should reach out sooner, I'm already... the emails already out. And so you really don't have anything to lose. And if 99 people reject you, like one of my early research studies, 99 companies said 'no', but that one company said 'yes'. And it was American Express and then I was on my way and now I'm watching my 45th research study since 2012 on next Thursday. So like, I just keep going. And I actually, anytime I have an obstacle in my life, I always say to myself now, "just. keep. going." I say with those pauses, too.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:37
That's become your mantra?

Dan Schawbel 19:38
Yeah, sometimes I'll, like, stand up and, like, point to the wall. And just say, "just keep going, just keep going." And that really is a secret. You have to keep shrugging off the negative, off the mistakes, off the failures, and keep going because life's too short to look to the past. Of course learn from the past, but don't let it hold you back down. Just keep going.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:02
Love that. And since I have little kids, "just keep swimming" pops into my head, too, here. But I want to come back around to what... one of your latest projects is here. And you did about 100ish interviews for the project that ended up becoming this book, right?

Dan Schawbel 20:22
There's a lot to this book. It's called "Back to Human: How Great Leaders Create Connection in the Age of Isolation". I interviewed 100 of the top young leaders at 100 of the best companies in the world for it. And it took three and a half months, it was about 850 communications, back and forth, to get approval from a company's PR department, because I want to use their names, titles and companies. And I had to get approval from the HR department to check what their age was. So it's all people ages 24 to 35. And from Uber, Instagram, GE, IBM, Intel, Johnson and Johnson, the best of the best of the best, but it took... and a lot of people reject me, I just kept going, I was like, "I'm gonna make this happen." And then I also got a research study funded the studies on work connectivity, sponsored by the virgin pulse, which is one of the 400 virgin brands under Richard Branson. And we interviewed over 2000 managers and employees in 10 countries. And that was an awesome study, it was a ton of work, too, 71 pages of research analysis. And then I did, I partnered with a professor. So over the past seven years, there have been about seven professors that have studied work isolation, and the impact on business and personal health and team commitment. And so I worked with Kevin Rockman, he's a professor at George Mason University on the work connectivity index, it measures the strength of your work relationships, work connectivity, index.com, it's a free self assessment. So all of that, plus my personal stories, advice, activities, all into one. So tons and tons and tons and tons of work. I was doing a chapter a week actually, I was drafting because I created a whole writing system, this time that I didn't for the last two bucks, where it was outline, research writing, right. So the outline frames the chapter for you. The research helps you make the chapter more credible and interesting and helps you frame your self help advice and activities and the story and then actually writing it, you're more prepared to write it, because you've already done the research, you have the outline so you know where to focus your writing. So that's been my chapter week system that I developed and worked extremely well. And it bought me enough time to bring on editors to help me smooth out the writing and make it more linear because one of my weaknesses and self awareness is my brain goes in many directions. I'm like I'm carrying on all these stats in my head, and all these things I need to do. And so I need to hire people to help me get back to center and center my writing. Again, I only know that because it's been 12 years of figuring this all out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:03
I'm letting you run with this, because it's super interesting to me just in the place where I've written another book, but it was actually a kid's travel journal. I wrote that with my wife. So haven't written a traditional book yet. And we're just embarking down that road. So I've been asking tons of my friends, I have written 2, 3, 4 books, soaking up all of this. So I'm just loving this part. But what I did want to ask you about though, as you're going through this process, and you did these 100 plus interviews, you did pull together all of this research, and you're writing the outlines and everything else, what were some of the biggest surprises that you had in everything that came out of this, and it probably be useful, let's briefly outline what the content is here, too, because this is a different book than some of what you've written in the past.

Dan Schawbel 23:51
Yeah, the main message in the book is technology has created the illusion of connection, when in reality people feel disconnected, less engaged, less committed to their teams and organizations, more lonely and isolated over the overuse and misuse of that technology. And one of the big most interesting things that is now part of my presentation when I speak all over the world is that technology is a double edged sword. It can be used for good and bad. It's really about how you use it. And for instance, the easiest example to say is you can use technology such as a calendar, maybe even artificial intelligence to get everyone to show up for a meeting on time in a specific location. But if you're in that meeting, and you're looking at your phone the entire time, you are not using technology properly. If you go to a networking event, and you use technology, email, your accounts, sinking people, sinking everyone's calendar to show up at that meeting or networking event, and you're not really there, you're not present and you're just too busy using that technology that brought you there, you've made a big mistake and it's going to affect your career because building one's career, as you know, is all about the human connection and those sacred human relationships. And if you let technology become a barrier between you and another person is not going to be effective, and you're going to feel very isolated and unhappy as a result. So there's been a lot of really fascinating things. I think the most interesting finding for the book that blew me away, and I'm going to be talking about a lot more in the future is that, if you work remote, you're much less likely to want a long term career at your company. And this is pretty controversial. And I've worked from home for about eight years, about a third of the global workforce works remote always, or very often, yet, two thirds of them are disengaged. So while remote work gives you freedom and flexibility to work when and where you want, and it lowers your commuting costs, people don't really talk about that, right? You don't have to put gas in a car, you don't have to maintain a car, etc. And then the cost of like cafeterias and all that, it makes you more lonely and isolated, because you're not getting the human interactions that we strive for what we need. As part of Maslow's hierarchy of needs. After food and shelter, we need love, affection and relationships. And so how are you going to perform at your very best if you lack those relationships? And the more friends you have at work, the more loyal you are, the happier you are, and the longer you're going to really stay and be productive member of your team and organization. So that's one of the things we found is that people lack work friendships, yet, we spend so much time at work. The average workweek in the United States is 47 hours a week for full time salaried employee, yet, and more than that, most people answer business email, on vacation or after work hours, always kind of working, especially if you're an entrepreneur, you're seven days a week, you're always on call. And so it's so important to likely work with more now than ever before because if you don't, your personal life will suffer. And so there's a connection between your work experience and your personal life. If you're having a great work day, you're going to come home, and if you're married, you'll be much happier, and you'll have a healthier marriage. If you hate your job, it will affect your marriage, it'll affect your relationship with your children, and your personal health. I interviewed the former US Surgeon General for the book. And he said that loneliness is an epidemic. And it has the same health risks and as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. So this is a really big deal, especially a big pain point for men as they age, we start losing friendships at age 25. And men lose them quicker. And so if we're not trying to seek those friendships at work, where we're spending so much of our time, there's a big disconnect for us. It makes us lonely, isolated and unhappy as a result, which hurts our personal life.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:53
So let me ask you about that then. Because as we've worked with people, one of the things we do in our business, by all means, is helping people get to where they want, a lot of people perceive that they want more flexibility, as well as remote work. And what we've learned from doing that is that it's that alone and it's not taken into consideration. The other elements like hey, how do you feel connection? And what do you need in terms of what are the other elements that are going to keep you more happy and more connected more often? So my question to you then is, what do you see as the... or some potential solutions to that?

Dan Schawbel 28:37
Yeah, I think the interesting thing just to start is what we want is different than how we behave. In all of my research, across the globe, even with young people, they say they want in person meetings, and to work in a corporate office place with other people, yet, they spend 30% of their personal and professional time using Facebook and other technology and social networks. So like how people are behaving is different than what they actually desire, which I think is really interesting. And so what I recommend is, it's all about embracing open collaboration, getting everyone on your team to commit to being open, accessible and honest with each other. The other thing is promoting through the book, a whole chapter on practicing shared learning. So instead of holding information to your chest, share it with others, because it's another way to interact with them. In order to keep up with the changes in our economy and all the disruptions that are occurring acquisitions, mergers, you name it, you need to help each other because the information is moving so fast that you need individuals to be the filters of that information and then share it among their team because the average half life or relevancy of a skill is only five years down. So things are changing really fast. We need to count on each other to be able to work through those changes, and have the right skills at the right time to be able to maintain our jobs and advance in the workplace. The other thing I would say is recognition, regular recognition, let's abolish annual performance reviews, because people hate them. And because the bell curve doesn't work, because if you are rated as a four, when you think you should be a five out of five, you're going to leave the company because you felt like you deserve the five. And they could only award one five for the department or the team. So instead of this, let's do regular recognition, right? You can criticize people, too, you can say, "Oh, well, you did great at this. But you could improve in this way" which is how people really take in feedback. But I think compliments are really key throughout the day, if you can do it. And recognizing people from seniority standpoint, if you're a senior leader, recognizing people makes a huge impact. And of course, people need cash bonuses and gifts. But recognition, we find it can be extremely powerful coaching.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:03
I'm curious about that. Because as well, I'm a bit of a nerd about both the research, but then the application side, too, just coming from a talent development and HR background. And then also the type of work that we do now, with helping people identify what they need. Did any of your research help identify some of the different elements or different categories in what people need? Because everybody's a little bit different is what we've discovered in terms of how and what they need specifically for recognition. Like, for one person, as you mentioned, you know, cash is great, and another person needs ongoing thank yous and acknowledgement for things and you know, another person like me, I benefit most from when my past bosses would share with me things and information that they wouldn't tell anybody else. And that was my form of recognition. I'm curious, what... if you uncovered anything there?

Dan Schawbel 31:56
Yeah, that's a great question. Sadly, all the research I've done since 2012 points to people caring about compensation the most, and cash bonuses the most, when it comes to recognition. It's just a fact. It's because the cost of living is not declining, right? There's a lot of pressure, cash is king. And I think cash will always be king. But once you get past cash, then things get really interesting. What we found as a difference between 2014 and 2016, when we ask people, what employee benefits are the most important to them? We went from... it was health care, and then health care, flexibility, and training to flexibility, health care, and training. So once people's health needs are met, once they have some degree of flexibility in their job, the number one retention tool you can use is training and development, which is why I was saying is like coaching is a big deal, because you have all these new managers, 40% of people in my age group, have a manager title and above now, and a lot of them are failing because they've never been managers before, a lot of companies don't have leadership development programs, only about 6% have like really well established leadership development programs, companies aren't focusing on succession planning. There's a big disconnect when it comes to leadership, and the leadership styles that people my age, and people who are much older are very different. The old leadership style is autocratic, which is about command and control and following specific policies and procedures. People my age, when they become leaders, it's all about encouraging the best in others, getting people to focus on a specific mission, a mission oriented, and that's why they go to the transformational leadership. So that's changed. And I think the other thing is, the importance of vulnerability, gratitude, and empathy are becoming more important, like chapter nine is leading with empathy, because everyone has their own situation, you know, a third of people suffer from mental illness in the United States. And it's a huge dilemma, and a huge issue. And it's something we have to account for. So you have a lot of the big professional service firms who have all these mental health awareness programs, which had been somewhat effective where people will wear patch that says they're open to talking about mental health issues, because it's either you suffer from a mental health condition, or you know someone who does, everyone has that in common, right, we all either know someone or suffer ourselves. And so that's why that is becoming more important as a leader now than ever before is because the stigma has, it's kind of moving away from mental health, and people are just being more honest and open about what they're going through. And we just have to be much more understanding in order to connect in a human way to others.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:39
Interesting, that is a lot of stuff. But I also want to make sure that for everybody listening, they can take away one or two things that they can actually do differently or put in place tomorrow or ask for from their leader or any number of other things. So what would you recommend that if I'm in the place where I want to be able to do this better, whether, as a leader or as a receiver, for lack of a better phrase, then what can I do tomorrow?

Dan Schawbel 35:08
Great question. I recommend, the one thing that always works is incremental change. Everyone talks about big innovations, and let's change the world, we have to get used to things in order to adjust and create new habits. It's just in our human nature, and that I don't think that'll ever change. So for instance, next time you are leading a meeting with your team, have everyone put their phones in the middle of the table. That's it, and test that out and see if it's different. And then ask people at the end of that meeting, if it was more effective, and they got more accomplished. Very simple, very action oriented. And number two, I would say, when you have a meeting, or if you are one on one weekly with a team member, ask them how they're feeling. Ask them what they need help on, ask them questions that are going to give you a sense of what this person is actually going through, their hardships, their strengths, just really pro them get to know people on a deeper level, instead of being superficial and just talking about work. Ask them like, what's really going on? Like, what are they doing for fun? I think that's so important. One of the things that companies lack, this is really interesting. I remember reading the study last year, only 20% of companies have offsites. Yet, what we found in this virgin study is that that's the number one thing that employees want to establish better relationships. And the other thing that is interesting is stop sending countless emails, one face to face conversation is more successful than 34 emails back and forth. And the number one thing that gets in the way of human connections in the workplace is email use. And so next time you're sending an email, use the email to coordinate a meeting where you're actually physically being with someone or even a videoconference, if they're in a different location, do not constantly, if you find yourself just constantly going back and forth an email, it's a signal that you are not using email properly, and just have a quick phone call, and it'll save everyone time and stress. These are like small little things that make a big difference over time, and you're training yourself to creating new behaviors that could live with you from job to job from role to role, which I think is extremely important. And the other thing is, being a coach again, one of the top things that people care about is learning and development, especially young people. So if you're managing a team, you really need to spend time coaching them and helping them and figuring what they need help on, people expect companies to invest in their learning development, both time and money. I mean, look what's happening with AT&T, they're investing a billion dollars to rescale and upskill, their current employee base, so they can move around internally and take jobs that are not even created yet. But because they're moving into new markets, they're going to need people with new skills that serve those markets. And so I think companies play a role in this. And I think individuals, the people who are listening here need to be accountable for their career and take charge of their life and make these investments on their own, whether it's at work, or whether it's at home, you can be a leader at home with your family, or in your local community or in your organization. I think that's why this is so important. Because if you want to get things done, if you want to close a big deal, if you want to lead a team, it's really about the interpersonal soft skills that are really going to make a difference for you. And if you're not investing in your team, why should they invest in you? There's an expectation that the leader is investing their time into cultivating these relationships, and training their employees.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:36
I love that. Thank you for that. I would highly suggest picking at least one of those, and starting tomorrow. It can be uncomfortable, but super easy in spite of things to be ask your team to put the phones on the table. I've done that before. Make sure that you have the follow up conversation to find out, "Hey, was that productive?" afterwards, and then you can round it out. But pick one of these at least and move it forward so that you can have more connection in the workplace, too. This has been phenomenal, Dan. I really, really appreciate you taking the time and making the time. So I've got just a couple other questions for you. One, is if they want to get the book or if they want to find out more Dan, if they got to get more Dan, where can they go to do that?

Dan Schawbel 39:22
Yes, follow me on Instagram Dan Schawbel. My website is danschawbel.com. And there you can access my podcast Five Questions with Dan Schawbel, which is also an iTunes and you can get all of my social network feeds, my blog. You know, I'm like you, I got so many different things that I have to centralize it all on my personal website. And I hope you enjoy "Back to Human''. I think it's gonna make a really big impact because we're all feeling... we're all relying too much on technology now and we need a book to give us an excuse to go meet someone for coffee or pick up the phone or give someone a hug. You need to get back to being human because we can't let this technology take control of our lives, it will leave us as very unhappy and isolated.

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:09
Well, I am a hugger. So that works out. I do really, really appreciate it. And the only other thing that I wanted to ask you just, you know, as you look back over your career, and so many twists and turns and evolutions and everything like that, aside from just keep going, what do you feel like is the biggest thing that really has kept you just keep going and evolving? What is in either the biggest piece of advice or what has been your biggest takeaway? What would you share with those people that are in that evolution place right now?

Dan Schawbel 40:39
If you want people to believe and invest in you, you have to believe and invest in yourself first. That to me is the most important. When no one believed in me when I was in my early 20s, when I wasn't taken seriously because I was writing career advice articles as a 20 to 23 year old, I just knew what I could become, I knew I had the right abilities because it all clicked for me. But the only reason why I had that self awareness is because like you, I started working when I was 13 years old. So I had eight internships, seven leadership positions on campus organizations that my school. I had an internship in high school, like I was learning all this when I was very young. So there's no overnight success, it just takes a long time because you have to figure out what you enjoy, what you don't enjoy, what your strengths and weaknesses are. And then you just keep iterating and naturally and organically growing your career from that instead of forcing an idea. I've never forced a business or research study, nothing's ever forced, it just naturally happens based on what I know I can do and what I know that I'm not as good at.

Scott Anthony Barlow 41:45
We have so much more coming up for you next week right here on Happen To Your Career. In fact, if you have ever experienced or know anybody who has ADD, ADHD, then you're going to especially love next week's episode.

Ross Loofbourrow 42:03
What worked out up to that point, pretending it wasn't there, didn't talk about it, never let other people know, and then this moment occurred where, holy smokes. I mean, I absolutely felt like I could lose my job if I don't pivot quickly in a different direction.

Scott Anthony Barlow 42:23
That's Ross Loofbourrow. And Ross and I get to break down how ADD, ADHD can actually be huge assets and huge strengths, instead of the way that the world normally looks at them as impediments and liabilities, because I believe that they're not and that's exactly what we're going to talk about next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Until then. I am out. Adios.

Dan Schawbel 42:57
I think book tours are dead unless your name is Kim Kardashian. I'm serious. It's been dead for a while though. I don't think I'm smart by saying that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 43:04
Yeah, not too shabby. Way to go.

Dan Schawbel 43:08
Testing. Can you hear me Scott?

Scott Anthony Barlow 43:09
I can hear you great, Dan.

Dan Schawbel 43:12
Excellent. So I got all this new podcasting equipment because I'm launching my podcast in like two hours. So I'm very excited. You're like my first big test subject with the new equipment.

Scott Anthony Barlow 43:24
Guinea pig. Perfect.

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How Kristy Celebrated Small Victories on the Way to Her Dream Career

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WHAT IF YOUR CAREER LOOKED LIKE TRAVELING THROUGH WINE COUNTRY?

A slight breeze cools your skin as you sit in the afternoon sun. In the distance, you hear words you don’t recognize, a melodic language just faint enough that you can’t identify the specifics of its European roots. Instead of turning to identify the voice, your gaze wanders over the grape fields in the expanse below. You trace the rows with your eyes, curious which trees are responsible for the wine you’ve been swirling in your glass. You take your time sipping on this glassful, guessing at its tasting notes, as you decided to ask the in-house sommelier which mezze to pair with this varietal. These unhurried moments are as delectable as the wine itself. You can’t help but think, “This. Is. The. Life.”    

A BITTER BEGINNING WITH A SMOOTH FINISH

If you were transported in the story above, you may have imagined yourself retired or on vacation. Surely that kind of life couldn’t be a career, right? WRONG. Let me tell you a story about my friend Kristy. Kristy signed up for Happen To Your Career emails a few years ago. After almost two decades of working in marketing and PR for an industry that wasn’t particularly thrilling, she knew it was time for a change. Kristy read a few emails, listened to the podcast, and passively dreamed of living a career she loved. She’d heard of people going on sabbatical for career self-discovery, so at one point, she and her family packed their bags for a European adventure. Like many of our students, she took flight seeking an ‘AHA’ moment. But after a while, she landed back home, still unsure of what she wanted and how to get it.    

THE EMAIL THAT CHANGED EVERYTHING

As disappointment and depression set in, Kristy talked with her husband about her career woes. As they collectively committed to do everything possible to find career happiness, Kristy watched a Happen To Your Career email land in her inbox. The message? It was the last day to join Career Change Bootcamp. Kristy couldn’t believe it. Minutes after deciding to go all in, she was forced to act on her commitment. Taking the email as a sign, she immediately registered for the program.    

TURN YOUR VISION BOARD INTO AN ACTION PLAN.

The bootcamp began. As Kristy worked through the modules in the program and talked with her career coach, she realized an essential lesson: the greatest vision, without consistent action, leads nowhere. Early on, Kristy picked up on the importance of momentum. To put it simply (and cheesily), “momentum = mo’ happiness.” Kristy told herself, “No matter how small the step, I have to keep doing things every day, whether it’s just updating my LinkedIn or contacting somebody that I worked with a long time ago that I can reach out to and connect with again. All those little steps—even if it was just one thing a day—were necessary. I had to put one foot in front of the other and keep moving.” Kristy knew if she stopped moving, fear would kill her progress, so she made a plan to ensure the momentum would keep rolling.    

UNCORK THE WINE. IT’S TIME FOR A (MINI) PARTY

To keep from wallowing in the difficulty of navigating a career search, Kristy learned to celebrate small wins along the way. Instead of saving the good wine for an exciting job offer, Kristy began to uncork the full-bodied flavors to celebrate a phone call she hadn’t wanted to make, an interview that helped clarify her goals, or a completed bootcamp activity that helped her identify key strengths she could carry into any new workplace. She identified and celebrated little victories, and these moments of cheer kept her moving forward.    

ASK FOR THE BEST BOTTLE.

  At the beginning of her journey, Kristy defined four major desires in her dream career:

  • Travel
  • Wine
  • History
  • Culture

Today, she gets to work in each of those areas, but her role didn’t just fall into her lap. Instead, she explored positions, connected with the right people, used the Test Drive Method on new types of work, persevered through disappointment, and kept her goals in mind. Eventually, she asked for a role running communications for a wine tourism company. Did you catch that? She ASKED for the role. And they said yes! Kristy worked with the CEO to create a position that utilized her unique skills. This is rare because it’s rare that someone actually asks for what they want. Like Kristy, you may need to ask for a role to be created that benefits both you and your employer.    

THE FIRST TASTE OF CAREER HAPPINESS

Today, Kristy gets to live out her career dreams. Her daily work tastes as sweet as a tawny port dessert wine. Delight dances on her tongues as she says her new title, Chief Communications Officer for Winetraveler. Kristy is the perfect example of a phrase we say all the time at Happen To Your Career: People who are willing to do unconventional things end up getting unconventional opportunities. You just have to decide… Are you willing to do the work?

To hear more about Kristy’s road to career happiness, press play on the podcast above.

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Kristy Wenz 00:02
There are some things I like about it. But it's kind of been alone and doesn't get very exciting. And it just there was really no upward mobility. It kind of lost its bluster to me at that point.

Introduction 00:16
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:40
What if you were literally stuck in your job? Not because you couldn't leave and not because it was a terrible situation, by the way, I'm using air quotes for terrible, but instead, because if you left, you didn't know what else you do.

Kristy Wenz 00:58
I had this doubt that I would be taken seriously in a different industry, because it really was an industry shift for me. So I was very scared about being taken seriously. And are they just gonna think you know, I'm just some nut that just wants to do this just because I have no experience.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:14
That's Kristy Wenz. She started a marketing and communications company a while back, yeah, a number of years ago. And at first, it was awesome. It was everything she wanted, it was challenging her in all the right ways. And then one day, she found she was hitting the snooze button. And she'd never done that in her entire life. She knew she was going to need to leave, she knew she was going to need to do something different. But seriously, what else would she do? If not this, then what? And that's where we got the opportunity to meet her. Here's her story of exactly how she went from listening to this very podcast, and all the way to getting her own job offer, created for her, working in wine and tourism and most of all, writing and communications. Here's her story.

Kristy Wenz 02:07
I am officially the chief communications officer with winetraveler.com. And it's sort of a hybrid of roles that kind of involves operations as well as kind of a chief of staff angle, and obviously, the communications piece. So it's really kind of a self created role that I designed with the CEO of the company. And it's been fantastic so far. I've been at it for about a month here and things are going really well. I'm very excited and thoroughly happy for the first time in my career, perhaps in my life.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:38
No small effort on your part, I know that we got to take along for the ride and participate on the journey. But you've done some really amazing work. And we're going to talk about what went into that both the good things and maybe the harder things too at the same time. But let me first of all, just say congratulations, because I don't think you and I have actually talked since it has happened other than over email. So.

Kristy Wenz 03:00
Exactly, exactly. The official. After I rang the bell, got to ring that awesome bell. Pretty awesome. Yay.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:08
And here's the thing that I wanted to ask you about first, why was this such an exciting role for you? What about it really lined up with what you wanted? Because you did some amazing work identifying what would create an ideal career for you. But this lines up in so many different ways. So what are some of those ways?

Kristy Wenz 03:25
Oh, there's so many. I mean, it really kind of ticks all my buckets. I love travel. I love wine. I like history and culture. So I knew that that had to be a part, right, I wanted that to be a part of whatever I did. I also needed something that was going to be flexible and allow me to work remotely, kind of on my own hours. And I put in a lot of time, but it's at my schedule, which is wonderful, especially as a mom. So that was a huge piece for me. And it's really allows me to do all of that, I get to write, I get to be a manager, I get to jump in with ideas. I have a seat at the table and work with a dynamic group of people that are really amazing. And that was important to me as well. Just working with like minded people, people with similar values, and kind of have the same goals and missions that I did. And this really everything fell into line. And I honestly did not think it was possible even six months ago.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:17
Isn't that crazy?

Kristy Wenz 04:19
Yeah, it's insane. But it all really came together and fits everything so far.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:24
That is so amazing. And we hear that same thing too, like, you know, when people enter our world, they hope it's possible. And I think that you did too. You had this hope that could be a reality. But a lot of times, you know, as we get the opportunity to meet people, I don't know that we entirely believe it's possible. It sounds like that was true for you too.

Kristy Wenz 04:42
Exactly. There was definitely the hope that it would be possible and even if, you know, I got some of the pieces that would have been better than where I was. So hopefully that there'll be something that I could take from it but not expecting really to have all my box checked off of me that really just kind of blows me away still like pinch myself.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:59
I know. That's so phenomenal. But it wasn't like prior to six months ago and even before that, you know, this was far, far from a reality. And what I'm curious for you is, first of all, what led up to even wanting to make this change in the first place? Because you haven't always done this exact same sort of thing, certainly in this way. So where did first of all your career started? What sent you down this path to eventually wanting to make this type of change too? Help me understand that.

Kristy Wenz 05:28
Yeah, absolutely. So I actually started in-house marketing decades ago, and then eventually led to public relations, and I worked for a small boutique agency. I liked it at the time, it was exciting, it was new, I learned a lot, I made some fantastic connections and ended up staying in that industry for 20 years, and eventually owning my own business in that industry. So it was interesting to have my own company and be able to design that in a way that fit my lifestyle. But it wasn't satisfying enough for me, if that makes sense.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:58
In what way? I'm curious.

Kristy Wenz 05:59
I eventually kind of learned as much as I could learn, kind of hit a wall there. And there was no way for me to advance anymore. Like I take on new clients and new projects who still had diversity. But it was in an industry that, frankly, was is not very exciting to me, there are some things I like about it, but it's kind of been alone and doesn't get very exciting. And it just there was really no upward mobility. It's kind of bluster to me at that point. And the thing that held me to it was the flexibility that I had, I was able to work from home and work with people I wanted to work with in terms of my own company, clients were a different story. But the flexibility is really what kept me going, it was able to work from home, be with my kids while they were young. And that just really made a huge difference in my life. And I wouldn't trade it for the world. I mean, we had some amazing vacations, we had, you know, time at home with the kids. And so it really... been able to kind of keep up with my career and have a role that I was content with, I wouldn't say happy with but I was content with. And then about 2015, I really kind of started to realize, you know, this isn't really what I wanted to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:06
What caused you to realize that?

Kristy Wenz 07:07
I had an opportunity to go in-house with a client a couple days a week. And the first year of that was it's so thrilling and exciting. I was creating a marketing department, they had one but it was really, you know, low production, low morale, they were losing people left and right. And so I got to come in and own something and turn it around and turn it into a successful program. And that was, I loved it. I was you know, out with people in downtown. And that was all very exciting. But again, in that same industry that I was kind of getting tired of. So I knew that I needed something more. And this gave me a little bit of that. And so I kind of wanted to start exploring. And that time we were actually leaving for a sabbatical in Europe. And I knew I was gonna be gone for seven months. So but this would be a great opportunity to kind of really explore things, come back and know what I wanted to do. And present didn't happen. And whenever there was high expectations of I'm going to have that aha moment. And I'm going to come back and know exactly what I'm going to do. And I did.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:05
Well, let me ask you about that though. Because we encounter a lot of people that want to take a sabbatical and feel that same way going into it. For the ones that do actually go forward, they feel that same way. Like if I just create the time and space, then I'm going to get that aha moment or that clarity or then I'll be able to immediately come back. But almost all of them that we talked to, you know, before and after that have done that, just gone on and done that without anything else and there kind of have the similar type experience. They don't have the clarity or don't have the aha moment, if they're just going over there expecting that to take care of itself. So I'm curious, what your experience was and why you thought that was that you didn't come back with that aha moment?

Kristy Wenz 08:47
It's a good question. I don't know why I didn't come back with it. I mean, the experience is definitely amazing. I wouldn't trade it for the world. That was difficult being in foreign places with small kids. And as a family, the four of us were always together all the time, really didn't have any breaks from each other. So it was a really intense kind of experiment as a family. And I wouldn't trade it for the world. We met amazing people and so many fantastic experiences, learning about different cultures and histories. So we have a lot of amazing things out of it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:15
Intense is the right word, by the way. That is, Alyssa and I use the same word when we have traveled with our kids in the past for, you know, a month or six weeks at the time. Yes, it's amazing and also intense.

Kristy Wenz 09:28
Right? Yeah. And there are moments you wouldn't trade for the world. And then others you're like, why are we doing this? Are we insane? It's just... it was nuts. But it's almost like hitting pause on life for a minute. You know, we kind of got to take a break from all of our responsibilities, and schools and activities and things like that. And we really just got to hit pause and be together. So that part was amazing. I expect that I would have more time to kind of dive into my inner workings and figure out exactly what I wanted to do and do some, you know, major thought work and what areas I really wanted to come back and what I like. And I did do some of that. It kind of was able to pull out of myself, things I knew needed to be a part of my career, like I knew I wanted to write, I knew I wanted to communicate with people, I knew I wanted to somehow be involved in food and wine and travel, if I could, because I love how it brings people together. So I knew that that needed to be a part of it, I didn't know what it looks like at all. And so when I came back, and I found myself doing my same things, again, you know, back at my same job that, you know, or same routines, that's when it really kind of hit me that I didn't have that aha moment, I'm still I'm back to where I left, and I don't want to be here. And if that's what it turned ugly, for me. To be honest, it was not in a good space. It was, you know, I had some depression, I had some resentments, and anger. And it all stemmed from the fact that I didn't figure it out. And I'm still here at home ever gonna get out of this place. And so it got ugly for a little bit. And it was a struggle. And it took a while for me to kind of get a hold of myself and say, "Okay, I need to do something about this, that I can do something about this." And I would have starts and stops, and I go get some books and read about things I could do. And then I would start to do some things and get sidetracked and then just be like, oh, it's just a waste of my time. Anyway, I've got too much going on. And, you know, it's easy to distract yourself. So I found myself getting involved in things that weren't fulfilling, but kept me busy. And for the next, I would say, until the spring, really, I have lots of starts and stop. And then I hit the point this spring where I just decided, time's up, I've got to do something. And I'm the only one that can make it happen. When people around me can support me and I can find resources to help me but I need to take that step and stay committed to it. And I did. It's been fantastic since.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:48
Do you remember if anything, was there one or a series of things that caused you to eventually have that realization that, hey, nobody else in the world is going to do this for me. And I need to do it and stick with it. And what finally happened that caused you to have that? I'm going to call that an aha moment. But maybe it actually wasn't.

Kristy Wenz 12:06
Right. Yeah, it was probably more of a somebody's beating me over the head moment. Before I actually like realized what was happening. I gotten so stressed to the point it has started to affect my physical health, of having back pain and neck pain and all kinds of random pains. So then started worrying that I was sick, into this whole cycle and it was stressed, it was just really stressed. And so it really kind of took a hammer over the head to pick my body to just had to say stop, for me to step back and say, nope, this is... I need to address it, or I'm going to end up sick and miserable. And I really didn't want that. So it was combination of that. And then I was doing some dabbling in some part time work. And that wasn't going where I wanted it to go. And I just had this moment where I was on a trip, I was doing things I like, was traveling, I was working in food and wine, but it's something still wasn't right. And I was on one of the trips, and I almost just started crying as I was walking down the street. And that's completely unlike me. And I thought it's time like everything is just lining up. This isn't working, we need to actually sit down and make a decision. And my husband, took a weekend away in March, I think it was and talked about things. And we had been saving up and kind of getting ourselves in line for me to be able to take some time and do some research and really figure this out. And so we decided it was time to do it. And it has so happened. And this was kind of a weird, coincidental thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:31
It always is. It seems like.

Kristy Wenz 13:33
Yeah, exactly. I had reached out to you in 2015. I remember and did initial work on what you want in your career and had since then been signed up to the emails, but I believe they were going into my spam or I hadn't seen them in a long time. And honestly, after that weekend away with my husband, it popped into my inbox again. And it was the bootcamp email that it was the last day to sign up for bootcamp. And I was, "what?" like, there we go and talk to my husband. And he's absolutely, "Do it. Just sign up." And that was it. So there were a lot of things that led into it. But it was that email just showing up that day, right after we had had that conversation that it was just like, Okay, this is time I'm on the right path.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:12
Well, I think what is amazing about that though, Kristy, is it was not a small series of events that led up to you creating the right time and space for you to be open to owning it in a completely different way than what you had before and looking at it through a different lens than what you had before. And...

Kristy Wenz 14:31
Exactly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:32
All honesty, like it looks different for everybody in terms of like the journey to get to that point. But you've done a phenomenal job in getting to that point. And clearly, it was not always easy. And many times it was rough to even get to the point where you were ready to look at things differently.

Kristy Wenz 14:47
Exactly. It's a mind shift. I mean, you really have to be ready to kind of change the way you think about things in a lot of respects. And that's not easy to do. It's definitely not easy to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:59
What do you think was the hardest part for you to have that mind shift? Or what do you think was the element that was the most impactful, but maybe difficult for you in terms of what that mind shift actually looked like for you?

Kristy Wenz 15:15
I think the hardest part was convincing myself that I could do it, that I was smart enough to do it, and that I was capable enough to do it. Because I had been doing the same thing for so long, I had this doubt that I would be taken seriously in a different industry, or kind of, because it really was an industry shift for me. So I was very scared about being taken seriously. And are they just gonna think, you know, I'm just some nut that just wants to do this just because and I have no experience. That was the biggest shift, I think, in my mind that I had to and going through the program, it really helped me to kind of outline all of the accomplishments and all the things that I have done, and look at them in different ways that they don't just, I don't know which step it was, but where you have to list out all the things you've done. And then it wasn't just about stating your responsibility. But as a result of that responsibility, what came from that? What successes did you create? What impact did you have? Once I started to draw all that out, it was really kind of able to see, well, I could apply that to all these other different industries as well. It's not just this industry. And I actually have done a lot of things. And once I started to put it all down, it really kind of helped me to see that I do have value and can bring value to some, to a new company and a new industry that I have ideas and intelligence and thoughts and I can apply it all somewhere else. But I think it was just getting over that fear of doing something different and doing something out of my routine and not something I had normally done or even thought about doing. So getting over that fear was probably the biggest shift I had to make. And I remember going through it, it would... when we had to write you know, what's going to be the thing that derails you through this process? I knew it was going to be fear, at some point that that was going to get me. And it did. There was a probably a good three or four week period where I really just kind of avoided the program altogether. It was like, nope, no, I don't know what's gonna happen and just kind of started to go in that stop mode again, and had a call with my coach. And after I hung up the call, it was like, I just felt that energy and excitement again, I was like, no, I got to keep moving. Like, I just have to keep the momentum going. It's when I slow down, that the fears can start taking over my thoughts, I just have to keep going. And I did. And it was shortly after that, that everything else manifested and the job offer and all that stuff. And it all came together very quickly after that. But again, those starts and stops and the fear can just really start to get into the thoughts and into the mindset when you're not moving forward. When you're slowed down, it's easy for that to kind of take over and fill you with the self doubt again.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:42
What you just said, I don't know if people as they hear that will realize how meaningful and impactful that actually is. And I just want to take a moment and repeat it because that's one of the things as we delve into the science behind this stuff that causes people to propel themselves forward and actually do things that they previously thought were impossible. And one of the things that you just said was, it was the continuously moving forward and rolling forward that allowed you to move past the fear. And we talk a lot behind the scenes on our team about how do we help people build momentum? And how do we get rid of all the things that stop them from building that momentum, because momentum is the surest way to allow you to move past fear. But it's also when it stops, the surest way to allow those fears to creep back in. And it sounds so simple, but and certainly there's more to it than just that. But it's one big element that we've seen as people feel like they're moving forward and are actually taking steps forward, even though they're small and creating that momentum, then all of a sudden, yeah, well, not all of a sudden, but it gets you there.

Kristy Wenz 18:50
Right. Yeah, and one way or there may not be a straight road, but it's certainly going to move you. When I read something somewhere at some point in all my research and it was something about, it can't catch the wind until you hoist the sail. And that just stuck with me like I've got to have my sail up so that I can touch it. And I have to, no matter how small the step, I have to keep doing things every day, whether it's just updating my LinkedIn or contacting somebody that I worked with a long time ago that I can reach out to and connect with, again, just all those little steps, just even if it was just one thing a day to be able to kind of, you know, just putting one foot in front of the other and keep moving. And there are days that was hard. There were days you know, you were faced with rejection, and it made me want to go backwards. Like somebody would say, No, I don't want to talk to you about that. And you know, we can't take personally but it's hard not to.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:40
Yes.

Kristy Wenz 19:41
And so those types of things are in there too. So it's hard you need to say "Okay, no, but this other one works. And so I'm just going to keep moving." And but it's not a straight line and it's not easy. And you do face those rejections and those moments that don't make you feel good, but I was a big believer in celebrating every little small victory, no matter how small, even if it was just calling someone I was scared to call like, that was a celebration because I picked up the phone and I did it. So I made sure to kind of reward myself along the way for the little steps too, because it made a difference and kind of reinforce the positive things that I was doing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:17
What did you do to reward yourself? Give me a couple examples of what you would do big or small to reward yourself. Because I think that's important. A lot of people don't think about that being a vital part of the process.

Kristy Wenz 20:29
Oh, exactly. Typically, it would involve opening a good bottle of wine, usually the ones that we've reserved for special occasions and be like, this is a special occasion, I'm going to do it. Going for a massage, going into a spa, just little things I could do that way. Even just getting outside for a walk in the middle of the day just to you know, if it was sunny outside and just go be in the sun. And, but anything or in things that I would enjoy that would make me happy that I normally wouldn't take the time to do because I'd be so obsessed on trying to find what I wanted to do or getting lost in it and just kind of taking a few moments to, you know, allow myself to do something I really like and enjoy the moment. So it's combination of a lot of different things. But I would say the most common was digging into our wine cellar from our trip to Europe and all the bottles that we had saved. And that was a lot of fun to kind of go through along the way as well.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:15
I am a fan of that type of celebration. Sounds like you and I celebrate similarly.

Kristy Wenz 21:22
Yes, yep. And I think my husband enjoyed it. He was along for the ride. So he wasn't complaining about opening those bottles.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:28
Like, "Another bottle? Well, okay."

Kristy Wenz 21:31
Yes. Every success, definitely worth it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:35
Oh, that's fantastic. So I'm curious, you know, through this entire journey, I would love to talk to you about, you came back from your sabbatical knowing a few of the elements that you wanted to carry forward with you into your next role. And I think it's important distinction here. Because just like you said earlier, like you stayed a long period of time, because you didn't want to give up that flexibility. But when we work with people, we think about it for a different mindset. We're thinking about it as how do we carry forward the things that we want to keep with us like that flexibility? And then how we bring into it, those other things that were missing in one way or another after we identified with them. So you came back, identifying a couple of those pieces, and then did some great work to identify the other pieces that you need too. But then once you had identified that, what did you do in order to begin to experiment with where you could create this type of career or where you would belong?

Kristy Wenz 22:29
Good question. I kind of went down a couple different paths. At the time, I was writing a monthly article for one traveler. And so I was already kind of connected with them. And I knew that they were had a lot of things in the works, a lot of plans, and the more I would talk to them, the more I would kind of give feedback and engage with the CEO, and we'd have a lot of great conversations. So that door was already open. However, I really... I did not envision anything happening there. Other than I was just contributing articles, which I enjoyed doing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:00
It always sounds obvious in hindsight.

Kristy Wenz 23:02
Right? Yeah, exactly. And I didn't even know if they would have any available positions. Because it is a startup, it is the very beginning stages being kind of the company that it is. And I wasn't even sure what opportunities were there if there were any. And if I would even be considered for that. That one started more is a kind of a subconscious Goldilocks experiment, I guess. I think it's the Goldilocks ones.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:24
Yeah, and for a little bit of context, for people who may not know what that is, you can go back and listen to our designing experiments episode on the podcast. But within career change bootcamp, one of the things that we do is we help people validate the road that they're going down. And the Goldilocks is being able to talk to a variety of different people in organizations and like this chair is too big, this corner office is too small, that sort of type of thing. And being able to find what is the right fit by getting continuous feedback and building relationships.

Kristy Wenz 23:53
Exactly. Yeah. And so I started doing some of that with him. And then I also started doing it with some of my clients, my existing clients and talking with them about different roles in their organizations, and talking with people that are in communications for, in the industry I was currently in, and just really kind of feeling people out and getting a sense of what's out there. I also connected with some people that really have been mentors over my career, and kind of like cheerleaders and talk with them about, what are some ideas you have that maybe I haven't thought of? Because there's just things out there that you don't even know exist, or they're maybe already been in your consciousness. So how can you think about them if you don't know. And so in talking to other people that you know, they would give me ideas that I could consider and from that, I started to pull out the ones that would get excited about or the pieces of each of these roles that I found rewarding or that I knew I would enjoy. And then a picture started to kind of take shape for the first time in my life of exactly what I wanted to do. And I always told my kids, I don't know what I want to be when I grow up, you know, I still don't know. But going through this, I really was able to kind of create that vision of who I wanted to be and what I wanted to do. And when I would think about it, the excitement I would feel, and it was just tangible. And so I knew if I was on the right path, and a lot of it had to do with just kind of testing the waters and talking to lots of different people, and kind of just working through this whole process of exactly, down to the minutiae of, you know, do I want to commute? Do I want... how many hours a week do I want in the office? Is it important that I have... that I manage people? Or how am I going to work? And that was actually one of the biggest concerns for me is, can I work for someone being, as I've had my own company for such a long time?

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:34
Yes. Are you employable anymore?

Kristy Wenz 25:36
Right, exactly. Like, am I going to be able to be an employee? Or, you know, how is that going to be to have that kind of relationship again? So that was interesting, kind of testing all of that out. And it just really it was a matter of going in and just like you said, Is this chair too big? Is this chair too... like, what the fit for me? And I was able to really kind of define everything after that process.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:57
What was one of those conversations that stood out in your mind that you had along the way through the social Goldilocks type experimentation that was particularly helpful? And I'm gonna ask you, what made it so helpful?

Kristy Wenz 26:08
Oh, that's a good question. It's about my conversations. I think, probably the one that had the most impact on me with one mentor, in particular. And she was former clients, and the one that I had actually gone and worked in-house for a few days a week. And she had been my superior in that role. And I just really respect her, I mean, her whole career path, she has really created for herself and continually created positions for herself to get her where she is. And she's huge champion of supporting people along the way. She won't, you know, you don't like your job, she wants to help you find something that you will like. So she really always had a positive kind of inspirational effect on me. And we went to lunch one day, and I told her I had started this process, and I had no idea where it was going to go and what it was going to look like. And she just really reinforced for me, she's like, "Well, here's all the things I think you're good at. And which one do you like?" And so we really kind of talked about that. And she just started naming all these different roles and companies and like, have you thought about this? Or how about that. And so she really kind of opened my eyes to more possibilities that I hadn't even dreamed of, like, I've never thought about that. And you know, she, why don't you talk to this person? And so she really kind of opened the door for me to see that there's a lot out there that I hadn't even given thought, and just what those possibilities looked like, and she kind of pushed the momentum angle too. She was like, you know, "what's your timing?" And I said, "I don't know", you know, we've kind of set aside a year for me to explore. And she just looked me straight in the eyes. And she said, "You do not take a year." She's like, "You don't wait that long." She's like, "Keep going." She's like, "You need to do this now." I'm like, "Okay. I'll do it, I'll listen to you." And she was just, she said, "Don't wait. Trust me, just don't wait. You've got the momentum, go." Okay.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:55
There's that momentum again.

Kristy Wenz 27:56
Exactly. And I left, so energized after that lunch. So I think that was probably a, you know, one of the most inspiring conversations that I had just that, don't wait, and here's all the things you can look at, and the world's your oyster, just go, you know, there's a lot of opportunities out there. And she was. She was a cheerleader through the entire process. And if I get stuck, I'd send her and she was very open about that, too. You know, if you get stuck, shoot me a note, and I'll push you, you know, she's like, whatever you need, I'm here. And so that really helped. And it just kind of that validation too, that what I was doing was that I wasn't crazy that I get stuck, that everybody gets stuck, you need people in your corner to cheer you on, it was a great conversation.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:34
That's amazing. It becomes evident as to why that was such a helpful conversation too, in terms of the exposure, as well as all the challenges. And then on top of that, being able to understand, you know, some of those different places that you could be a fit, because that's one of the things that you said you struggled with earlier is trying to see, what you do or what you have done and some of the things that you're great at and have experience in, can translate into other areas. And we get so many people coming to us and asking for that exact same thing. But what people don't realize is that so much more of it, nearly every one of us realize this is actually translatable.

Kristy Wenz 29:13
Right? Yeah, exactly. And that actually just reminded me one of the other big things that really kind of helped propel me forward, was the... at one point we had to go and ask people in our life, colleagues and family and friends and people that have managed us, that we've managed and different people to give five characteristics of, what they think our strengths are, which is a difficult thing to do you know, to call and ask people these questions and kind of embarrassing and you feel a little kind of like, oh, I just want them to say nice things about me. And one of those things like nope, just gonna do it. Just going to ask and see what happens. And then collecting the list of the responses and looking at it was really interesting and eye opening. The amount of crossover and it was from people in all areas of my life from people that I work for, people that worked for me, you know, my family, people that I just acquaintances or have done projects for, volunteer work, the similarities that came out and all of their responses really, were eye opening and things I hadn't thought of like things I didn't think about myself like, "oh, really?" like, "Huh. Okay. That's an interesting" you know, like everybody talks about how approachable I am, that's came across in every single response. I just thought that was, you know, there are things I wouldn't have thought on my own, you know, because it's hard to think about your positive, I know I'm a hard worker, I know I am on time, and I get jobs, you know, you can think those things. But coming up with going beyond that, it's hard sometimes to think that way about yourself. So it's really interesting to see the responses. And that helps you guide to where, "Hey, where are my strengths, so my passion is going to collide?" And so just a really interesting kind of path to go down and see, and it was a great way to kind of look back and, you know, when I would get stuck to go back and look at that, like, okay, these are, you know, that's right. These are people in my life, think these awesome things, I can do this. And so it was really encouraging part of the process, I think, as hard as it was to ask for those things. It was a really great part of the process.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:12
Well, when you do other things that most people are unwilling to do you get results that other people aren't going to get. So, that's some good evidence of that. And that's actually, you know, speaking of the momentum we mentioned several times earlier, that's one of the reasons why we, with all of our students in any capacity, we build that in a lot of times into the beginning portion of the process, because it creates some of those initial "whens" and a different lens to look at things through. Early on, which then does help carry you as you're getting into some of the latter stages. So I'm so glad that you experienced that as well. But here's the question that I have for you, since you went through such a range here, of going from, hey, I'm in the mind space, where I'm not sure if I'm ever gonna find this flexibility again. So I don't think I can do anything different all the way to completely flipping it. And I'm going to decide what I actually want in my life. And then I'm going to go and get it, which is the polar opposite end of that.

Kristy Wenz 32:17
For sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:17
What advice would you give to other people that are maybe closer to that fear type space, where they're like, I'm not sure if like, I've got a great, not what I want, necessarily, but it's good thing going for myself? What advice would you give them to move past that? So that they can experience what you've experienced with being able to decide what you're going to do and go and get it.

Kristy Wenz 32:21
Good question, I'd say to, again, celebrate those small steps. And because every door is an opportunity, every exchange is an opportunity. I look at it this and I still think about it too, you know, there's a chance that this role I'm in now could end up not working. And that was kind of scary, too. But it's the process works. So I know I can do it again. And I don't want to think of anything is the end, you know, it's always a journey, it's always a process. If this isn't the end, that's okay. It's still... it's an experience on my journey that's going to change me and shape me and open new doors that I didn't even think were possible. So I think just really understanding that, you know, there's things out there that you don't even know where possible until you start to take those steps, because I seriously could not have envisioned this six months ago, you know, we had an exercise of, you know, create your perfect day. And I couldn't have envisioned this. I mean, I had ideas, but you know, there's no way I could have made this up at that time in my head. But each small step just really introduced me to another person, that introduced me to another person or, you know, gave me an experience where I was able to say, "oh, wow, I really enjoyed that" or, like doing this. So that's interesting, and just kind of pulling, learning something from every experience, every encounter, every exchange, and looking at it, and just seeing what works and what fits. And kind of I guess, being a curious learner along the way, it was really helpful to remember that this is a journey, and it's not an end. Our lives just keep moving forward, every you know, I look back and I look at all the things that I've done, I couldn't have imagined any of them really. And so it's just remembering that it's not a road to an end. It's just all part of the journey, I think is helpful. And I would say just ask, just do it. That was so counterintuitive to my own thinking.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:26
In what way?

Kristy Wenz 34:27
I never would have just asked, you know, I can't ask for what I want. Why would I do that? If it's not available to me, why would I ask for something that's not available? And my coach just said, you know, "Just ask. Why not just ask? What are you going to do if you don't ask?" And that kind of hit me. Like, if I don't ask, it's not gonna go anywhere. And if I do ask and it doesn't go anywhere, it's still the same spot. So it's not going to hurt. And it was a very big change for me to just ask. And it's been incredible. I mean, I did just ask, and it works. And there are times I asked, and I get a, you know, counter response. But it's a response that you can engage with them and start the conversation. So it's never a bad thing to just ask, hearing 'no' isn't an awful end of the road thing. It's an opportunity for conversation, a chance to ask questions, you know, and a chance to turn it in different direction, whatever it may be. I think just ask, and don't be afraid to ask. It's scary. It's terrifying, because nobody likes rejection. But just be able to say it out loud and ask for what you want and not be afraid. I think, you know, once you do it a couple times, it gets a lot easier. But it's something everybody I think, if you just do it, just ask, and I think it'll, it opens just so many different doors.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:42
That's amazing. We have definitely found that when you ask for what you want, there are a surprising amount of times that you're more likely to get what you want.

Kristy Wenz 35:50
Yeah. It's funny how that works.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:52
It is so funny how that works. I love those simple types of logic though, because those allow me to be able to move forward and do things like this. And you've done a phenomenal job here. And one of the things I hear all the time that I just want to commend you on, because you didn't allow yourself to stay in that space, I hear people say, I'm not the type of person that asked for what I want. And you have, through this process, been able to become the type of person that asks for what you want and there's so much buried in that, that we're not going to be able to even get to or even touch here, in terms of what that journey actually looks like. And I know it's not easy. And I'm just so proud of you that you've gone through it and done such an amazing job, really great work.

Kristy Wenz 36:33
Well, thank you, I do have to credit the program, too. I mean, the way you guys have it laid out, it makes it... I don't want to say easy, because it's not easy, but it makes it easier to move through the process. Because the steps are laid out in such a way that it's clear and it really covers a lot of different basis. And so it just it makes it easier, just that extra support to help you move through the process. And it's awesome program.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:55
Well, thank you very much. And thank you so much for taking the time and coming on and sharing your story. I know that so many people are going to listen to this and pick up different pieces that they haven't thought about before. So I appreciate you taking the torch and carrying it and helping people be able to do things differently than what they knew were possible. That is amazing. I really appreciate it.

Kristy Wenz 37:17
Absolutely no problem. And always happy to... if people want to reach out to me, I'm on LinkedIn, I'm happy to share advice or you know, give encouragement. There are a lot of people in my life that pushed me along the way and opened doors and paid it forward. And I'm happy to do the same. I think it's the community that we're in, high achieving job changers. It's an awesome community. And if we can help each other, I'm all for that. So open to doing that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:41
Absolutely amazing. And we'll link up your LinkedIn into the blog post that goes along with this episode so that you can find it on Happen To Your Career, too. And I want to just say thanks again, so much. Very, very much appreciate it. And you've done phenomenal work.

Kristy Wenz 37:57
Awesome. Well, thank you too. I appreciate it. It's been a blast.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:01
Hey, Kristy was a podcast listener. And I know that there's so many people out there, they're in the same place as she started out where they want to do something different, but really aren't sure what, they really aren't sure exactly how, and maybe you're in that exact same place. And if that's the case, then I want to encourage you to keep listening, but also take actions along with it. One really easy way you can get started taking baby steps, right down that road is with our eight-day mini course, or eight-day figured it out mini course, to help you begin to get clear on what you want in your new career. Two easy ways to do that, you can visit figureitout.co that's figureitout.co or you can simply text happen to 44222. And then, we'll send you all the links and you can get started right away, making it happen for yourself. Hey, I also just want to say I so appreciate you taking the time to listen and rate and review the podcast. We've had so many people that have done that. And it just really means the world to us. Plus it helps other people be able to find the show in the future too. This one comes from gratitude elzie and says, "if you feel lost about career happiness, this is the podcast to listen to. I'm so glad to have chanced upon Happen To Your Career. The host is a joy to listen to" thank you very much. "He offers great insight about all kinds of career advice through interviews with people who have gone through all kinds of career changes, you can tell that he's genuinely interested in helping people" I'm glad that comes across. Those are my words not theirs. "But this podcast exude positivity, compassion and practical advice. If you're feeling lost about how to achieve career happiness, this podcast is your guiding light." Thanks so much for taking the time and making the time. We have so much more coming up for you next week on Happen To Your Career. We've got another surprise in store for you.

Dan Chevelle 40:02
And so all of this came together and I was just like, this is what I'm meant to do. And as many times as I was bullied and made fun of I just knew, I just knew it. I knew it. I knew it. And I just put so much energy. I was working over 100 hours a week, nights and weekends, I would comment on every single blog that mentioned personal branding. I was just so dedicated to it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:25
That's Dan Chevelle. He will be here, next week on Happen To Your Career to help you understand how to make work more human. Until then, we'll see y'all next week. I am out. Adios.

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