Cindy Gonos 00:01

We really are changing not just the way that people think about how they do work and how they get work, but I think even before we start that work, we start helping folks understand themselves.

Introduction 00:15

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:46

This is the 500th episode of the Happen To Your Career podcast. All right. So this is pretty exciting. Because over the last 10 years, we have been able to deliver this show for you. And it's been so much fun. It's been such an all over the place journey. And it's also not where we started. What we do now, as an organization, as a podcast, is miles and miles different from what we did, what we started out with. It started out way back when almost 10 years ago, when myself and my friend Mark had a blog, we had a blog, it was called Happen To Your Career. And we were really focused on taking control of your career, for things like getting a raise, getting a promotion, being able to make a career change. And it's now evolved into so much more, so much more. We're still helping people make career changes, we're still helping people get promotions, we're still helping people do all those things– take control of their career, and lead a much more intentional life. But it's bigger than that. It's much more than that. And it goes beyond just those individual career changes. Now, we've evolved the company into a very different ‘why’. The reason why we exist as an organization is not just to help people get promotions, but instead to be able to change the way that work happens. And even the way that we think about work, so that we can make it much more fulfilling for humans. That's the impact that we want to have as an organization. And it really does start with individuals. It starts with you listening to this podcast and making a decision to do work differently, to find what's going to fit you and be able to live that out in your world through your career. Also, it goes beyond that. We really want to be able to make an impact with leaders of organizations. And the way that we want to do that is help them be able to create fulfilling work inside those organizations. Okay, so I have a special treat for you today since it's episode 500. All right, that is the entire rest of the team here, or at least five of our team. And we're in Moses Lake Washington, we are literally gathered around a tiny table in my studio, to be able to share with you some of our favorite ways that we get to exemplify our ‘why’, the reason why we exist, how can we change work, how we're focused on individually, and broader picture, changing work and the way that people think about work. So fun fact, you probably don't know this, we have never talked about it on the podcast, but every single morning, we do a morning stand ups– 15 minutes long. And as we're rotating around, one of the things that we do is popcorn. By the way, this idea comes from one of our listeners and clients, Melissa, thank you so much for the popcorn idea. And that's how we pass the baton from one person to another. So I get to pass the baton right now to... they're all looking at me. Okay, I'll popcorn it to Ben. Ben, what is your favorite way or what are some examples of your favorite ways that we exemplify our ‘why’?

Ben Fox 03:59

Yeah, I'm relatively new at HTYC. And from reading the job description, I knew that this was a place that would not only talk the talk, but walk the walk. And as a career coach, to find a place where I could be working on my own dreams and goals as part of my job. And the employment was groundbreaking. I've had aspects of that, but this was the first time where I could see that I'm gonna be living the life that I really want most. And then from that place, being able to serve clients, and I think that's probably the most authentic way to actually help people as a coach.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:48

You know, it'd be really strange if we didn't do that actually. That would be like, yeah, we're out there. We are trained to help clients live their most authentic lives, live without what they want to do. If we weren't doing that, that would be pretty hypocritical.

Ben Fox 05:03

It would be. And it has happened to me and my former jobs and companies. So, you know, we talk about unicorn opportunities. I definitely feel like this is one for me. And again, yeah, from that place, I know that my work with people's way more authentic, way more me, and being able to see what my colleagues are after, like, what are the dreams of the people around this table and help them figure out how to get there together. A lot of coaching work for me has also been pretty solo, pretty siloed. And having a team that understands what it is we're doing and helping each other do that for ourselves, groundbreaking.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:50

You know what I think is really fun about that, is that when you are, as you said, you know, pursuing the things that are important to you, or pursuing your dreams, pursuing whatever you want to call that, like those things that are what you really want, I think the way... and you and I have had a little bit of conversation about this. But the way that you get to show up for the people that we support is very different. It is very, very different. And it's really hard to fake that. That's the thing that I found over the years, it's really difficult to fake that.

Ben Fox 06:21

Yeah, just coming from previous roles, it's almost like I've had to split my personality in half where when I'm working with a client, I can get really excited in previous jobs about what it is they want and why I'm there coaching them, but because of the way the company is being led, or some bureaucracy, I have to put aside some of my own dreams and goals. So yeah, I'll say the word again, it's pretty groundbreaking for me to have a place that says, "hey, we actually need you to think about what it is you want. And why are you here? Like why are you at a company like this? And how are we a fit for you?" So many companies are like, "tell us why we should hire you."

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:15

Convince me why you're awesome for us.

Ben Fox 07:17

Yeah. And here, it was more like, "This is a two way street. We want to make sure this is right for everybody." And I think because we do that, we can be that for our clients, we can be that for all of you listening, and show you that that exists already. And sometimes we have to create it, but it's out there, and we are examples.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:38

I love that. And I think what's really interesting about that, for me, too, is that it role models that for our clients so that they can, as they're figuring out what is right for them and they're interacting with you, Ben, and other people on our team, then they have a great example of how they can carry that forward into their organizations, whatever that is like, whatever is their extraordinary fit, whatever it is their unicorn opportunity, then they get to carry that forward. That's actually one of my favorite things.

Ben Fox 08:11

Yeah, it's precisely that. I think a lot about leading by example. And there's nothing I could say to a client, that's gonna have them believe that "oh yeah, there are unicorn opportunities out there for me. I can make the impossible possible for me." The only way I know how to actually have them believe that is, through example– my own example of other clients. So yeah, it's, again, the most authentic way to do this is to be living it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:41

Okay. So just like in... this is weird, because we don't really have microphones for our meetings. But just like in any other meeting, you get to popcorn to someone else. Who will you popcorn to next?

Ben Fox 08:52

I will popcorn it to my lovely colleague, Kate.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:56

Kate, tell me a little bit about what are some of your favorite examples of our why in action?

Kate Wilkes 09:03

You probably should set a timer. Because I'm going to really, really have a hard time. Strap in folks. I think that for me, I did not know that work could be like this. I was really taken aback when I started to believe that this was a thing. I've worked in many corporations. I've worked in large academia, departments and mission and vision and values. It was plastered on the walls, on the website, it was everywhere. And as an employee sitting in a seat, you knew it really wasn't true. You knew that they weren't really exemplifying those things. So when I came here, and don't do career change like me, I fell into this beautiful role, at this beautiful company. Go do it the way that our coaches said to do it, you'll get there quicker. But when I came here and I realized that our values are what we live every day, and that we don't bring people on the team unless they, not only share those values, but have a strong desire to live those values. And that's eye opening for me, that is not the way that I've ever been able to work in my whole life. So, for me, our ‘why’ is literally our ‘why’ everyone on the team. And so we are ridiculously helpful to each other, to potential clients, to people who are working with us, to anybody that we interact with. And it's just a delight to be a part of a team where that kind of stuff actually matters, that is what drives us, and that is why we get really excited to show up every day,

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:39

You know what I think is difficult about that is that we do live our values. Also, it is really incredibly difficult, I'll say, to integrate those into everything. And you know, I heard you say one thing earlier, like we don't hire people unless they fit our values. I will also say that we have in the past, we have actually made the mistake of bringing people on board that really didn't fit, our values did not align with what they valued. And we have done that. However, the harder part of that is moving people off the team that don't fit those values. And in some ways, it's easier, because if we are living our values day to day, it's easier to see. But also it's difficult when we make a mistake around that. And we have to course correct in one way or another. So I totally agreed with that. And I don't think I would live in it. I'd have a hard time at this point going back to an organization that didn't, well Ben said walk the walk. But I think it's actually in many ways harder to actually do it. I don't know, how do you think about that?

Kate Wilkes 11:51

I tell on first time conversations with people that are thinking about how we can help them, I tell everyone I'm like, "I can't imagine going back to the old ways, it would be such a soul killing experience to work anywhere that didn't just exemplify whatever values they put up." We are lucky here because we get to physically see the change. I talked to Cindy and I talked to people, when they're saying, "Hey, I need help and I don't know where to start." And then we get to hear their success story. And there's a whole team of people behind the scenes, helping those people from day one, to the time when they come on the show with Scott and say, "I got my unicorn role." And it's all because we all are living those values and helping the people and trying to spread that ‘why’, right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:38

I heard you say, "see the change." And in some cases, I don't know, I almost think, like, we should take pictures like before and after. Because in a lot of, not all cases, but a lot of cases, some of our clients look healthier, compared to what they're previously going through. There's a very real physical and emotional toll of being misaligned with your work. So it kind of triggered that for me. We've never done something like that. But it's almost, I mean, you see things like that in, I don't know, like, well, health and wellness type industry, right. But in some ways that carries over.

Kate Wilkes 13:14

I tell people all the time that I live for the success stories, because I remember when these people have come to us and they didn't have hope. And they didn't know that work could be fun, and their life was a mess. And, they were just like I need something better. And then when you hear them talk about where they're at now, it's like a glow up for your soul, right? Your whole soul.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:37

That's fun. Okay, who would you popcorn to?

Kate Wilkes 13:41

I will popcorn to Samantha.

Samantha Martin 13:43

Hello. So the one thing I would say is the craziest to me, for me personally, and how we exemplify our ‘why’. I started by saying the craziest because I still have a hard time wrapping my head around having true control of my career. And just like Ben said, not being stuck in a role and being like, these are the things that you do, being able to, like, evaluate what I'm doing every single day and not say, "Oh, I don't like this. I'm not going to do it" but be able to go to the people on my team and say, "I don't think that this is my strengths. And I don't think that I can keep doing this or want to keep doing this" and having them rally around and say, "Okay, well, what would make it better for you? Or who can we pass it to? Or who can we bring on the team?" And just really like being able to niche down and be like, "This is what I'm good at. This is how I could make the team better, the company better and my life better." I'm still getting used to it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:36

I think that's hard, though. I mean, Ben and Megan, who's another coach on our team, were having a discussion the other day talking about there is an adjustment coming out of operating one way, pretty much your entire work life. And then even if you're in an environment that is encouraging those types of behaviors, it still feels really difficult, to me, at least it feels really difficult to adjust. So I'm curious what do you think about that?

Samantha Martin 15:08

Yeah, I still find myself on autopilot sometimes just doing the work, and not really evaluating what I'm doing and not being like, "oh, that's draining." And then I'll kind of come out of it and zoom way out and be like, "Oh, this is when I was feeling energized. And this is when I wasn't. And this is when I was working on my strengths. And this is when I wasn't." And for me, it's like writing it all down. That's just how I do it, and then coming and talking about it. And it's always so wild to be encouraged to do those things.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:36

In the Happen To Your Career book, the very last chapter ends with "how to continue to thrive", because even when you get to a situation that's wonderful, an environment that lines up with what you want, people that are the type of people you want to spend time around, even when you get to that situation, it still requires continuing to become a different person, it still requires continuing to evolve skills. And although we don't talk about what you just mentioned in the book, I think that's something to point out, like, even when you get to that opportunity, that unicorn type of opportunity, then, to some degree, it requires, like, a commitment from the people that you're working with. And that's, I mean, that's more difficult than normal.

Samantha Martin 16:20

Yeah, I definitely think we talked about the exposure problem all the time, as far as like, not knowing what jobs are out there. But it's also... so I think exposure can also be about the people that are around you and the people you surround yourself with. And the crazy thing for me is every day I'm working on this podcast and seeing the craziest unicorn opportunities being lassoed. And I'm like reevaluating my career based on that. I think it's really helping people, you know, solve the exposure problem and listen to other people and surround themselves with people that they want to be like, and they want to have a career like if they don't have people in their life like that. So I think it's cool. And it's, I mean, definitely helped me navigate my career into the place that I want it to be heading.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:04

We're all up here in Moses Lake, over the last two, three days, I don't know how long, it's been last 72 hours, which has been a really fast 72 hours. We have been evaluating our next year's goals, and working on deciding what the work is going to be and prioritizing which strangely is what we held much of the world with. But we're doing that for ourselves. However, the word of the last couple of days has been very meta. And I think that Samantha, you should have seen her face. So but I think it is somewhat meta that you get to work on this podcast. And part of that helps you evolve well, and decide what you want to need for your own career. Like that's super fun for me, like, in some ways, nothing makes me happier than the metaness.

Samantha Martin 17:54

Well, it's just cool to like, again, be exposed to all of that and keep reevaluating and realizing that, like, this is the right place, this is the place that I want to be and I can make the role that I want in this career as we grow. So it's just been really fun and exciting. I will popcorn to Cindy.

Cindy Gonos 18:13

Thank you, Samantha. I have to say, Samantha never wants to be on the podcast. We have to fight her. And she is amazing. I'm not sure what, anyway, I don't know what's wrong with you, Samantha. I've been thinking is all of you guys have been talking. And I was even saying before we started this because in my role as Director of Client Success, I talked to folks and Kate does it now too, which is amazing. But what we do is we are talking with folks right at the beginning of this, right? So I'm sure there's lots of people that are listening to they're like, "I don't even think that exists only it Happen To Your Career" or even moreso. I don't know what that looks like. Right? Like, I don't know what that looks like. Because we think about these things that we're... I don't know that we think we are supposed to want in a career. And I would say, for me, personally, the way that I see our 'why' show up the most is really, we really are changing not just the way that people think about how they do work and how they get work. But I think even before we start that work, we start helping folks understand themselves better, and start to think differently about who they are and where they thrive and how they thrive. And sometimes, like with Samantha, you start to see those things as you're in a really amazing role. But not everybody gets that type of opportunity where they land in a really awesome organization and then they get to start defining who they are and what they want to be in their career. So I think that when I see clients come in and I hear it a lot, "I don't know what I want. I don't know what that looks like." It's really, I don't know, it's magical to me to be able to even see somebody have a little bit of an epiphany to say, "I can now define what autonomy for me looks like in a really ideal situation" where they can start to paint that picture because I asked them about their unicorn opportunity, the very first time we speak. And sometimes people have a really clear vision of what that is. And then at the end, their vision is different. Or they come in and they say, 'I don't know what that looks like." And we get little tidbits of it. And then by the time they've gone all the way through this process, they know what it is, they know what it looks like, they know how to talk about it. And yeah, I don't know who said it, like, never been able to go back. It's easy for us as, I know, I always try to check myself, right? When I'm sitting with someone... Yeah, I do. I have to check myself because what I have, what I've experienced here may not be something that they've seen, so I'm not trying to rub it in people's faces, right? So it's about figuring out because then all of a sudden, because somebody said it, I'm just gonna call it out, I keep it real, right? This episode is not about getting folks that want to work for Happen To Your Career. We love working at Happen To Your Career, but our unicorns are not necessarily your unicorns. Right? So I think a lot of folks are, "Oh, what do I have to do to work at your organization?" It's not our organization. There are places out there. So I would say, for me, our ‘why’ really shows up when we're able to help clients rethink the way they think about themselves, and then hence, and therefore, they're able to think differently about how they work and how they're able to thrive.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:33

I think that's such a valid point, too. I mean, first of all, we're going to, even as we continue to grow, we're just going to stay a relatively tiny team. Our goal and how we want to change the world is not going to be from us having, you know, 19,000 team members, you know, that's not in the plans right now. However, the way that we plan on doing that, and what we often call our secret mission, is to get enough people that we have been able to help and touch in one way or another through this podcast, through content, through being able to have people go and opt in for our eight day figured out mini course to help them start to figure out what intentional looks like for them. And then, you know, get our email newsletter. All of those ways, or even, you know, becoming clients and we get to help them at a deeper level. But then for those people, once they understand what work can be, and how it can be different then them to go into the organizations that they've identified as their unicorn opportunities those, by the way, if you've listened for more than like a few podcasts, you've probably heard the term unicorn opportunity. But the way that we define unicorn level opportunity, is those opportunities that you didn't believe were possible, either in the world or for yourself, in one way or another. And it looks very, very different. To your point, Cindy, from person to person, what is my unicorn level, opportunity is not the same thing as the next person. And that's completely okay. And the reality is that, you know, Happen To Your Career is probably not the unicorn opportunity for most of the people in this world. And that's okay. But we need to create those, and we need to allow people, enable people to find those in other places. And then here's the part that's super fun, that secret mission part, you get to take that and teach other people that, you get to take that and be able to... once you figured it out for yourself, impact your new coworkers, and help raise the expectations for what work and fulfilling work can look like. And I think that's actually my favorite part. That's actually my favorite part of our ‘why’, honestly, that whole secret mission that goes along with it.

Ben Fox 23:50

Yeah, you get to be a secret agent for changing how the world thinks about work.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:56

Yes. So Ben came up with another fun fact and came up with that in the last 48 hours. And we're like, "Yes! That is it. Yes, you get to be a secret agent." And I mean, it's so true in so many different ways. And we need that, like, it's not going to change on its own, it's not going to change the expectations and norms of work, and what that is, without your help. So I really appreciate it very, very much. Thank you, by the way, for 500 episodes. It's only been possible with you listening, and sharing and subscribing and telling other people about this show, about this podcast. That is literally the only way that has been possible. If that wasn't happening, which by the way, we just found out the other day that we're in the top 5%, I think there's like a 2 million-ish podcast out there now. We're in the top 5% of all podcasts shared in the entire world on Spotify. Yeah, did you know that? Oh, my goodness. Kate's like... Kate might have a heart attack. Yeah, that was super, super fun to find that out. Kate, are you okay? All right. So I appreciate that. We appreciate that. Because this very much would not be around if it wasn't for you. So thank you for taking the time to write a rating and review on your podcast player of choice, thank you for sharing it, like texting a friend and dropping the link in there and telling them about the show. All of those things actually really help us reach other people, which then puts these ideas of what work can be out into the world. So this is our own personal, we'll say TEDx talk, we're spreading the ideas of what fulfilling work can look like. We really appreciate it. Thank you very, very much. To another 500.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:57

Hey, many of the stories that you've heard on the podcast are from listeners that have decided that they want to take action, and they've taken the first step of having a conversation with our team to try and figure out how we can help. And if you want to implement what you've heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then I would invite you to do the same, let's figure out how we can help support you. So here's what I would suggest, just open your phone right now, go to your email app, and I'm gonna give you my personal email address, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just send me an email and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll make sure you get to the right person on our team, and you can have a conversation with us. We'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you in your situation. So open that up right now. Drop me an email, put 'Conversation' in the subject line, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:57

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Dan Ruley 27:03

If I have to wake up tomorrow morning, and do this specific thing, and then turn around and do this specific thing, every day for the next 10 years, is this something that I really want to keep doing?

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:16

Getting promoted is usually great news. But what if you were promoted beyond your ideal role? Many people don't ask themselves what they truly want out of their career before they automatically begin climbing the corporate ladder. In fact, that's one of the most common things I've heard over and over again, even when I was interviewing people who wanted new jobs, they'd say, "Well, I want growth" and usually by growth, they meant promotions. Okay, it's not uncommon to work for years to get to the top, only to realize it's not all you wanted it to be. For example, if you're great at sales, you may get promoted to sales manager. But those skill sets are completely different. And sometimes those roles are completely different. So what do you do if you feel like you've surpassed the role that would actually fulfill you?

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:06

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Megan Crawford 00:01

Somewhere along the way, corporate recruiting started to not be a fit for me. And so I felt a lot of empathy and a lot of like sitting in my candidate's seat. I really started to feel those same things that they were feeling.

Introduction 00:20

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:45

Okay, what happens when you decide your current job no longer fits you? Yes, it can be jarring to realize the role you once thought was the perfect fit is no longer right for you. But we see this happen all the time. And I've experienced it myself. Many times what's happened is your values or your priorities have shifted as time has gone on and you've realized you want something else, that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. And, yes, it can be difficult to accept that you've outgrown the role that you envisioned you would be in for the long haul, but it can be even more difficult to leave that role, to leave that situation. But don't let your aversion to loss or risk keep you trapped in an unfulfilling opportunity. It's possible to find a new fulfilling role.

Megan Crawford 01:35

Please take off that pressure that you have to figure this out right now. The awareness, acknowledging the awareness that this is not a fit is amazing and good. And let's honor that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:48

That's Megan Crawford. She's a career coach and strategist on our team right here at HTYC. Megan is a wife. She's a mom, a meditator, artist, self awareness advocate, and she refers to herself as a general nerd, which I appreciate immensely. Megan has been a career coach since 2015. And she's worked for companies like The Muse, Full Stack Academy, but before she became a coach, she worked in recruiting for 12 years, for companies such as Deloitte, Booz Allen Hamilton, she worked with many industries over the course of her career– IT, accounting, finance, marketing, sales, design, just to name a few. During her time recruiting, she was also an adjunct professor at Drexel University specializing in, you guessed it, career planning. Megan made a major career transition from a recruiting to coaching when she had the realization that recruiting no longer aligned with her values, or what she actually wanted out of her life. You'll hear her recount her personal career change story. And as we go along, she'll share her advice and expertise that she has gained over the years on how to strategically find what fits you. Here she is.

Megan Crawford 03:00

I started out really naturally falling into recruiting. I've always easily connected with people. I've always loved learning about people's stories. And recruiting was like a really good match for me. I've also always been really good at getting jobs. Like since I was little, 14 years old, I always really loved working. I loved having my own money. I loved learning different jobs. And so I've always been really good at getting the job that I wanted before recruiting.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:33

What was the 14 year old story? I'm now very curious about that. Like, what did you do at 14 years old where it's like...?

Megan Crawford 03:39

I worked at a gift shop, like, a little card, like, they sold Hallmark cards and little knickknacks, little presents, and I worked the cashier and I sold lottery tickets. I loved it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:50

Oh, interesting. So that especially resonates with me because my daughter just relatively recently got her first real job at 14. With all the kids, I helped them start a business at age 12. But this was her first like, W2 type job. And she also apparently is good at getting jobs. So you were in the gift shop, you're selling lottery tickets, you're doing all the things and it sounds like that set you up to enjoy working as well. So what continued to transpire as you moved beyond, let's say, 14?

Megan Crawford 04:28

From day one from that position, I loved helping customers find what they needed. I loved helping them pick out the perfect card. I loved making them happy. I mean, it was like an early thing for me that sort of customer experience was ingrained. I went on from there to work in several in the Philadelphia region hoagie and cheesesteak places. Yes, so I was the sandwich builder for a good six, seven years for high school and into college. And again, just that experience of working directly with the customer, making them happy with food at that point, I love those jobs, I literally love those jobs. And just from there, through college, I worked in food service. But then I also started working in an office in college. And it was in a Student Support Office. So like life and support office. So I was an admin. And again, I was just literally helping people, whether it was finding resources on campus, or just within their own life, like, "Hey, I need to find a job in this community." And I had the resources for them. So that set me up for my first really, my first office job was in college.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:41

Interesting. So where and how did that evolve into recruiting?

Megan Crawford 05:45

Yeah, so when I graduated, just literally started to apply to jobs. And one of them was a temporary job at Booz Allen Hamilton in Virginia. And they hired me temporary. It was like a temp job. And then within a week, they hired me full on as a recruiting assistant. I didn't even know what recruiting was at that point. Legitimately. They're like, "Yeah, you can be a recruiting assistant." I said, "Okay." There I was. This was so long ago. It's so funny to think back.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:21

So then what was that experience like for you? What did you enjoy about it? What was very different than what you thought recruiting was going to be? Tell me all the things.

Megan Crawford 06:31

Yeah, so I really got a great foundation on the structure of hiring in a large organization. I got to understand the different components and the departments that needed people, right. So to hire. So it was everything from posting job descriptions, sourcing, it was talking to like, like that initial conversation, scheduling, huge interview days, like 100 people, scheduling 100 people to interview with multiple parts of the organization. So I had a really good functional knowledge of recruiting and an understanding of how it operates within a big business.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:11

How long did you spend overall in recruiting? Was it about if I remember, over a decade, like 10, 12 years or so?

Megan Crawford 07:18

Yeah, it was about 12 years.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:21

What did you get to learn along the way, as you were continuing to evolve in recruiting? What did that trajectory look like for you?

Megan Crawford 07:31

Yeah, for a while, it was really just playing that part of recruiter and putting, helping to hire people, helping to facilitate that process. But along the way, I really started to pay attention to right fit. And it was something that I just couldn't let go of, and understanding how different organizations make their hiring decisions, and really gravitating towards the candidates' stories and lives. And were they making good decisions for their career? Were they making decisions that would benefit them as a person? And I tended toward that aspect versus the recruiting and hiring aspect. So I sensed a shift in me, for sure. But how I approached it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:22

What do you think caused you to be really interested in that area?

Megan Crawford 08:26

I think I was also sensing a shift in myself, somewhere along the way, corporate recruiting started to not be a fit for me. And so I felt a lot of empathy and a lot of like sitting in my candidates seat like they were trying to find something new. I really started to feel those same things that they were feeling.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:46

What did you notice when you were there, and you're feeling some of those things? What were some of those things that started to no longer be a fit? Maybe they were once before but as you continue throughout your career in recruiting, what were some examples of that?

Megan Crawford 09:04

Yeah, I can think of a few examples. One in particular really stands out for me, and it was hiring teams. I'll speak about it a little bit generally, because it happened on several occasions, but hiring teams that were making poor choices, and being very, very narrow minded in the candidates that they were even willing to look at. So if you think about, oh, I'll only hire somebody that has an MBA from a certain school and sort of that very, very knobby approach to how they would view candidate resumes. I got a really bad taste in my mouth about that because I, on the other hand, I'm talking to these magical candidates who have the experience can do the job, absolutely can do the job, and me having to communicate to them. No, we can't move you forward. It was a huge disconnect from my values. It was a huge disconnect from like what made sense. So that's a big one that stands out for me that just making decisions about hiring behind the scenes from a company perspective, that just did not make sense.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:13

That definitely rubs me the wrong way. It infringes upon, I'll say my values as well. And I think moral compasses, too. Not so much about being dead sad about a certain type of candidate, but where you have all of this potential, and people are just not open to considering other original ways in order to get to the same, I guess goal, achievement.

Megan Crawford 10:44

Yeah, 100%. It's that exactly. You know, if we're on the same path, headed towards the same outcome or goal, like you said, then why do those little details matter? Why does it matter where they got their MBA, if the person can do the job? And so really naturally, I started to talk more to the candidates about and say to them, "Hey, I really think that maybe this isn't a fit for you" which isn't what you're supposed to do in recruiting. Right? You're not supposed to be saying that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:14

Supposed to be, it's not. So I hear. I may or may not have done the same thing. But so I hear that that's frowned on.

Megan Crawford 11:22

I really started, I think career coaching before I even really knew what career coaching was, honestly. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:29

What did that look like at first? When you're having those conversations, do you remember one that stands out for you, a particular individual, where you are having a very different conversation, as opposed to just, hey, get you in here and move you along in this process. And it seems like a great fit. What was one of those examples or stories where the conversation was different than normal? And you unofficially, maybe were doing some coaching?

Megan Crawford 11:59

Yeah, I remember it was a software developer. And I was hiring really technical people who had to be consultants also. So they had to sort of play two roles: consultant and software developer. And so it was a specific profile, right? It was a specific type of person. And I remember talking to this guy, and he was so smart. And so into software development, right. Like that was his thing. We had several conversations. And I mean, over months, it was a long relationship for recruiting. And I remember him talking about, like, when we were talking about the idea of consulting, and the idea of going into the client, and the idea of maybe talking about other things that we did, and upselling, that kind of stuff, right? And panic would go across his face, and not just panic, like, "oh, you know, I've never done that before. But I'll try." It was like, he really legitimately didn't want to be client facing. And I think he was trying to fit himself into roles because he needed a job, he wanted a different job. And the more we talked, I just had this gut reaction to not moving him forward. And I was very, very honest with him. And I said, "I just don't think that this is right for you. I don't think that this is the right path for you. I think you should be hyper focused on finding what is right for you." I don't want to have a conversation six months from now, that says like, "Hey, I had this feeling. I knew this wouldn't be a fit." And so I did it in the recruiting process.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:34

Do you remember what happened that? I'm so curious how he reacted.

Megan Crawford 13:38

No, he totally agreed. I think he needed the permission of someone saying it out loud. Honestly. He agreed because he knew more about himself than he, I think realized. And I think us talking and just saying things out loud helped him know that just because this job was available, and all these other things looked good, maybe just didn't look good for him.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:01

So let me ask you about that. Because that's something that you and I both know, we see all the time with clients. And we see all the time with people that we interact with that aren't HTYC clients too, where they're going down a specific trajectory, because they think that they have to or any number of other, whether it's obligations, or they feel like they should do it, or thousands of reasons, right. And I heard you say just a moment ago, you felt like he needed some level of permission to not just keep going the same trajectory. Why do you think that we find it so difficult to change trajectory without someone else acknowledging that? Even though it sounds like he already knew. It sounds like based on what you're telling me, he already knew in that situation. Right?

Megan Crawford 14:52

Yeah, I think it's a lot of reasons. But I think in the beginning, it's that fear of the unknown. I talk about this a lot with clients, school and early career even is very linear. And it can be sort of easy to follow that linear path of like, "okay, if I do this and this, thisis going to be the outcome." And then many times, oftentimes, people get to a point where it's not linear anymore, something just doesn't feel... something feels off. And they know that they want to make a change, but not knowing what that next change is, is scary. And I think, at least just acknowledging it saying, "Look, I don't know what is next. It's uncertain." And I say this a lot, I say, "If we allow it, this uncertainty can just be possibility, right?" And so just opening it up. Because if we're sitting in that moment of uncertainty, then we're closed off to different options. So I just say, "Let's take a step back. Let's acknowledge the uncertainty and know that it's there. But let's just be open to it." But I think that it's the fear of the uncertainty in the very beginning, for sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:52

[16:00] I love what you said. And this is such a good reframe, which I know reframe is a very coachee word, I suppose. But I really think it is such a good reframe. You said uncertainty, if we allow it can be possibility. Same exact thing. Same exact time. Same exact situation, just literally in how we look at it.

Megan Crawford 16:23

Absolutely. Yeah, I think if we get stuck into the idea of like this narrow minded view, like there's only one or two things that I can do next, based on what I've done in the past, we will be six months from now having the same feeling of something's off.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:41

So where did you start to give yourself permission to look at possibility or possibilities when you recognized that recruiting, which once was a fit, and once was wonderful started to increasingly be less of a fit for you?

Megan Crawford 16:58

Yeah, so I took a job. I was enamored by the money, it was enamored by the prestige of this job. It was in recruiting. And I took it and I took it with a gut feeling knowing that I shouldn't have. Okay. And yeah, and I was sitting in it, and I had a boss that wasn't a fit, that he knew he wasn't a fit. And I remember sitting on the phone with him. And it was very corporate environment. And it's just wasn't a fit anymore. And I remember having this conversation, and I said out loud, "I made a mistake. I made a mistake." And he kind of didn't know what I was talking about. But it was really more of an acknowledgement for myself that it had become so crystal clear that this was no longer a fit. That I had to listen to what I was at that point doing on the side. At that point, I was naturally getting referrals of people needing help, whether it be with their resume, or like how to think about jobs. I'm in a brainstorm or so you come to me with like something that you want to do. I'm going to come up with all these ideas. And I see possibility, right. So I was already naturally doing that on the side. And I was like, "Well, I need to really look at this. Is this something that I can do as a career?" Yeah, that conversation was a real turning point for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:29

That's so interesting. I didn't realize, this is why I love having these types of conversations for the podcast. Because even though you and I have interacted many times, I didn't know that that conversation took place. You and I have that commonality. Like I told you I had a similar situation where I took a role, everything appeared to be great, it was sort of, I don't know, enamored with many of the pieces of it. Even though deep down I knew that one I wasn't really that excited about it. It was probably the wrong fit. And then a year later, took me way longer than it took you, it sounds like. But...

Megan Crawford 19:03

I was six months in. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:04

Oh my goodness, good for you. Good for you for not waiting for a year. And I told my boss it was a mistake. And yeah, so what happened after that point for you?

Megan Crawford 19:15

Looking back, I looked for any opportunity that would allow me to be touching coaching. That would be like anything that was adjacent to it. So I wound up taking a part time role at an outplacement organization and a relocation organization where I immediately got coach training and I was also helping people who were relocating. It was part time and honestly at that moment, it was like, it sealed the deal for me. Whatever I could do to stay in the space of coaching, learn about coaching, continue coaching was what I was going to do. So really, it forced me to look outside of where I had looked. I promised myself I would not look at recruiting roles. I took recruiting out of my search terms, and only put in the things that I wanted to continue doing in my search terms.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:09

Hold on. That sounds like such a small thing. But I think that that's very powerful, where you had to decide and commit to no longer intentionally or accidentally pursuing the same activity. And I think, you and I have probably both seen many people where we continue to search on job boards over and over again, for something that we know, isn't really the thing that we don't want. And we just keep doing that, because it's easy, and it's natural and everything.

Megan Crawford 20:37

I wrote it down. I wrote down, I will not get another corporate recruiting job. I promised myself. That is, I think the biggest thing that I did, the biggest gift I gave to myself in terms of making the change happen is that I promised myself that I would not put myself in that situation again, because it was not a fit. So it was more than a decision. Because, you know, definitely a decision. But it was the promise, to me, that changed the game for me. So that, yeah, I'm not going to look at recruiting rules anymore. This is eight years ago at this point. But I decided I'm no longer. I'm only going to put search terms in that have functional skills that I want to continue doing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:22

That's powerful that declaration or commitment. And we've talked on the podcast before about clarity, which a lot of people say, "Hey, I'm looking for clarity, and this and this, and this and this." And what we don't realize is that clarity comes in sometimes small tidbits from making those declarations, making those commitments. And it's a product of that, or a byproduct of that, I should say, as opposed to just finding clarity upon the mountain or anything. So that's awesome. And so here's what I'm curious about, for someone else who is in that situation, where they know they no longer want to pursue the same path and one way or another, what advice would you give them? What advice would you give them to help make big or small or intermediate size promises or declarations for them?

Megan Crawford 22:11

I think in the very, very beginning of the process, I would offer to someone that they do not have to figure it all out right now. Take the pressure off of yourself to make this amazing choice right now and figure it all out right now. It's impossible to figure it out right now. It was a process for me to get to the point where I know that this is my magical role. Like I know, I'm in my lane coaching. I know that now, it's been a process and it was a process to shift over to that. So number one, please take off that pressure that you have to figure this out right now. That the awareness, acknowledging the awareness that this is not a fit is amazing, and good. And let's honor that, like, you realize that that this isn't a fit, that's great. Now, let's start with the openness and really get into research mode. Right? Let's get into research mode. And let's start there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:15

I appreciate that. I have one more question for you, what causes you to keep doing the work that you do now? I had a conversation with you not that long ago, where you had said something, this probably won't be the exact quote, but it was something very much along the lines of, "I have found that I love the coaching in these types of interactions with people, particularly as it relates to people moving through their careers. And I'm going to do this work, no matter what." And at the time, we were talking about whether you were right fit for the team and that our team was a right fit for you. And it was just it resonated with me because you're like, I'm doing this no matter what we just need to figure out if this is a fit. And I thought that was very, very powerful. And that's a lot of the time it is where we're trying to get our clients to, to have that level of specificity in what they're looking for. So that they can just figure out if something to fit or not. But, what do you particularly love? What are some of those things that fall into that category for what keeps you doing this type of work?

Megan Crawford 24:23

For me, coaching isn't just a job. It's really helping people on their long journey, right? Their journey of their career. And as we know, our careers, our jobs, have such a ripple effect in our whole lives and the people around us. And so, for me, I think the impact of coaching is helping people build a better life, working toward an ideal, and I think everyone deserves to sort of move to that better spot or move to something that makes them whole so that the rest of their life can feel that way. So what gets me up in the morning and what keeps me moving and keeps me coaching is that, is helping people get to their ideal, not just career but life really.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:16

Hey, something I want to let you know, the seemingly impossible career change stories that you hear on the podcast, are actually from people just like you who are listening to this podcast and decided to take action and have a conversation with our team. If you want to implement what you heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. Here's what I would suggest, just take your phone right now, open it up, go to your email app, and type me an email, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team and you can have a conversation with us. We'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and support you in your situation. So open that up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line to Scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:11

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Cindy Gonos 26:16

We really are changing not just the way that people think about how they do work and how they get work, but I think even before we start that work, we start helping folks understand themselves.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:31

The reason why we exist as an organization is not just to help people get promotions, but instead to be able to change the way that work happens. And even the way that we think about work, so that we can make it much more fulfilling for humans. That's the impact that we want to have as an organization. And it really does start with individuals. It starts with you listening to this podcast and making the decision to do work differently to find what's going to fit you and be able to live that out in your world through your career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:00

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Rachel Cooke 00:01

I felt like I wasn't present for my kids. And so there were a whole bunch of circumstances that were converging that told me that my path was to step out.

Introduction 00:14

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:39

Here's the thing, I worked in HR leadership for many years long before HTYC was even ever thought of. And I grew to hate the term employee engagement. Why? Well, partially because it's a buzzword. However, there's another really large reason. So many organizations talk about it but not really doing anything of serious impact to help their employees actually be happier and more fulfilled at their work. And the crazy thing is that you don't actually have to wait. As it turns out, most people don't even realize that there are things that you can do so you're not waiting in your organization to drive employee engagement and actually allow you to be more fulfilled. So what is it that you can do to take ownership of your role in a way that actually matters, and allows you to be more happy more often in your career?

Rachel Cooke 01:35

Growth isn't just one thing. It's what you define it to be.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:39

That's Rachel Cooke. She's the founder of Lead Above Noise, and also the host of McMillan's Quick and Dirty tips, Modern Mentor Podcast. Today, Rachel's going to share how you can take control to deliver your best work and thrive without waiting on your company.

Rachel Cooke 01:55

I went to college to study psychology thinking that I wanted to be a therapist, and I loved therapy, I believe in therapy. But I think I came out realizing I was a little intimidated by the idea of the human as a patient. But what if I can make the organization my patient? That just felt safer for me. So I went back to school for a master's degree in organizational psychology. And I have spent the bulk of my career working in the realm of people and HR. I spent several years doing HR full time and have been consulting on my own for six years now.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:29

What prompted you to go from working HR full time? Which you and I have that in common. I spent a lot of years in HR as well, a whole bunch of other professions too, but very familiar with the HR side. What prompted you to go from HR to work in consulting?

Rachel Cooke 02:44

Yes. For me, I felt like I would never have so much hubris as to say that I learned everything that there was for me to learn, there's always more to learn. But at the same time, I felt like a lot of my energy was getting expended on what felt like being a cog in a wheel, I was executing on somebody else's vision, I feel like I was fighting in a rat race, I didn't even think I wanted to be in and I didn't really see a path for growth, because for me, it felt like growth meant promotion and getting more senior and sort of being more polished and speaking more corporate speak. And that just wasn't what I wanted to do. I wanted to not continue executing on somebody else's vision. But I wanted to step out and create change and deliver impact in a way that felt more meaningful to me, and that I felt like I kind of needed to be an outsider looking in, in order to do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:33

So that's super interesting, partially because one of the things that you and I are gonna get to talk about today is ways for... if you're in the situation where your company isn't necessarily providing an amazing experience for you to be able to do that for yourself, and growth is something that it sounds like you weren't getting in the way that you wanted to, to put it mildly. Is that an understatement?

Rachel Cooke 03:59

No, it's totally right. And I think the key there is that growth isn't just one thing. It's what you define it to be. I was getting a ton of growth as the company decided what growth looked like, it just wasn't what I wanted.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:12

So what's an example of that? What is something that you were not getting that you really were missing or looking for?

Rachel Cooke 04:19

For me, it was really opportunities to have bolder conversations. So in my last role, I was an HR business partner and my role was really to sit down with my senior business leader and kind of listen to his plans and his vision and help him execute on it. And I didn't feel incredibly empowered to challenge him to push back to probe to coach him in a way that might infringe upon his ego. And that sounds kind of terrible, but I think that leaders within a company are willing to take a certain degree of coaching and pushback from an external consultant in ways that they won't from their internal business partner. And so for me, it wasn't about how is the company grooming me, how are they positioning me for the next level, I really wanted to impact change in ways that I just didn't feel like I had permission to.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:06

I've experienced that as well what you said about how sometimes you have consultants as an example, where they're able to come in and deliver a different type of feedback or different type of advice. And it's paid attention to differently than, and not in all organizations, but certainly in many organizations, I've experienced that as well. So what's an example of that where now, if we're bringing this full circle to where you're at currently, you get to have that type of growth and those bolder conversations that you wanted to?

Rachel Cooke 05:41

Yeah. So one example that is very real time for me right now. I'm working with the CEO of a business and I keep having this conversation where he talks about conversations in the realm of, he almost thinks about it as a dichotomy. So a conversation is either it's very action oriented, right? We're talking about results, we're talking about something quantifiable, measurable, we're action planning, or we're having a kumbaya moment, and in his words, and in his mind, either we are executing, or we're like holding hands and singing a song, and where I've had the opportunity to really push his thinking, and I don't think I would have had the opportunity to do this if I were internal. And so I've pushed back and I've said, "Listen, I get that we may not right now with your team be having a conversation that feels totally like it belongs in a spreadsheet." I said, "but there's a lot of space between spreadsheets and Kumbaya. We're having a conversation with your team right now around how do they move forward? How do they collaborate more effectively? How do they better support each other and show up as a leadership team versus a team of leaders." And I think that there are genuine obstacles to that that need to be addressed and made visible. And so by putting those things out there by somebody on the team, being willing to say, "hey, you know, I pitched this idea a few weeks ago, and you guys shot me down, you didn't even give me an opportunity to explain or you didn't ask me any questions." I said, by raising those things with your team, you actually have the power to move them forward. And I strenuously reject your assertion that that means it's a kumbaya moment, right? So being able to really push him and challenge him and say, "I do not accept your assertion." I don't think you can do that when the person on the other end of the conversation is your boss,

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:20

Under what circumstances have you seen it work where you're able to have that same type of pushing or similar, even if it's not exactly the same? So I'm super curious about it.

Rachel Cooke 07:30

Well, what I think is that when you are a cog in the wheel of a company, and this is totally just my experience, I think there's an unspoken expectation that you're there to be part of a team and to support executing what the whole group is executing. When somebody brings me in, they're going out of their way, they are making a conscious investment in wanting to hear contradiction, in wanting to be pushed, in wanting to be challenged. It's not just that I have permission to do that. There's an expectation that I'm doing that, otherwise, what are they paying me for? So there's a bit of a self selecting thing that's happening there. I'm not saying every leader in the world is going to want my pushback. But what I am saying is the ones who have sought me out are the ones that do. So I don't have a choice, but to be a little bit bold and brave and candid with them. Otherwise, what are they paying me for?

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:19

Well, I think what's particularly useful as I'm listening to you tell that set of stories and what has worked for you is that you have to either find those environments in which you're getting the right areas of growth, in this case when we started talking about growth, or you have to go and to some degree, create your own or find another one, right. So that brings us, very much brings us full circle, because one of the biggest things that I wanted to ask you about is what if it isn't working? What if you're in that position, let's go back, how many years ago was it that you were working in HR and having these thoughts? Okay, so six years ago, let's go back six years ago for a minute, and say that, you know, for someone who's in a similar position where they're not quite getting the growth that they want, or they're not getting their buttons pushed in the right way for them, how can they impact that? How can they enhance their own employee experiences?

Rachel Cooke 09:14

Yeah. So what I will say is that for me, there were a number of life circumstances that were converging. So everything I said is the honest truth. And also, I had kids and this was obviously well before the pandemic. And so there was an expectation that I was commuting and I felt like I wasn't present for my kids. And so there were a whole bunch of circumstances that were converging that told me that my path was to step out and hang my own shingle and start my own business. I do not believe that that is necessarily the path for everybody. And I do not believe that for anyone who's maybe feeling like they need a little bit more love at work, the only answer is just to step out. I absolutely think that would be a terrifying thing to say. I think if you're in a position where you're not getting exactly what you want, but you want to make it work. You love your company, you love being an employee. And by the way, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be part of somebody else's vision and playing a role in executing it. And I don't mean to imply that that is a bad thing. It just wasn't what I wanted personally. But if you love being part of a company, you believe in your company's mission, you want to stick around, but you're just not feeling the love. I do a lot of work with organizations on crafting meaningful employee experiences. And I think that there's absolutely a role that companies need to play in helping their teams craft that. But I also think we are all very much empowered to shape shift our own employee experiences. I think companies work really well is when you have both the enterprise and the individual employees all steering in the same direction. And so the framework that I use with companies and that I use with CEOs and leaders, I think works just as well for the individual. So I love to talk about the employee experience through the lens of four pillars. So I think that there are some companies that think the employee experiences about like food and foosball, tables and lobbies, and free massages, and virtual yoga. And those are cool, like those are fun. And if you want to keep doing those as a company, I think go for it. But don't confuse those kinds of sizzle and physical benefits as your employee experience. As far as I'm concerned, what creates a really powerful employee experience is when we can do four things: we can deliver our best work and our best selves. We can develop new skills, capabilities and talents. We can connect with our teams, with a community with a sense of purpose, we feel belonging, and we can thrive, we feel well, we feel supported, we feel recognized, we feel like we have boundaries. When I work with organizations, those are the four pillars that we focus on. But I believe that an employee has certainly the power to take some steps in those four realms on their own, depending on what feels most absent for them. So let me pause there and see how that lands and I can keep going for hours. But that's probably not feasible.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:02

I feel like we could probably have an eight or nine long hour conversation, maybe with bathroom breaks, I don't know. About these particular topics, so here's what I'm particularly interested in, when people are thinking about it not working, in this case, the employee experience, let's keep using that lingo. Your employee experience is not working that usually means that something is missing, or misfiring or something is not connecting, not an expectation is not being met in one way or another, the expectation of the employee. So my question for you, is about, when you think about these four pillars that you mentioned, what are some examples of each of those pillars? And specifically, how people can impact this employee experience? Maybe even what might be missing in each of these pillars.

Rachel Cooke 13:00

Absolutely. So if you think about the first one, which is deliver, there's some great research out of Gallup, they publish every year, their state of the American workforce report. And what they say year over year, is that the number one driver that employees are looking for when they're evaluating new jobs is to "what extent do they believe they're going to have the opportunity to deliver what they were hired to do" people care deeply, they want to show up and do their best work. So when I talk about deliver, what I push people to think about is, are there things that are keeping you from delivering the work that you believe you are hired to do? And that might mean things like, are you being micromanaged? Are there lots of administrative obstacles in your way? Are you struggling to have clarity on expectations or priorities? There are a million things that can hold us back from delivering our best work. So I really encourage people to think about if that feels like the space where you're sort of falling down, you're not getting to do the work that you care about, ask yourself, "What would feel different?" Are you sitting in back to back meetings all day and you feel like you're not able to get anything done? And what can you do about that? Can you talk to your boss and say, "Hey, I'm in meetings all day, I've identified two that I really just don't think I need to be in and I feel like I could have so much more impact if I spent those two hours doing something else."? It's finding the things that hold you back and then proposing small solutions that might make things incrementally better, right? Sometimes we're not able to get our best work done because we need to collaborate with another team that isn't showing up as we need them to. So can you pull somebody? Can you sit down with someone on the other team and just say, "hey, is there a better way for me to request the data that I need from you? Or is there a better way..."? You know, but it's about having the conversations, being a participant in finding the solutions, but those are the types of things that I would look for under the deliver pillar.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:52

That's really, first of all, thank you for exact language and an example, that's super helpful. And second of all, I think that when you're talking about those areas that are not working, I think it's really easy to point out what those areas are that are not working, it's much more difficult to be able to identify potential solutions, and then go and do something to impact that. So I appreciate you saying that, and just wanted to note that and any other examples that you have for these pillars where we can demonstrate, here's how you would go to your boss, or here's how you'd go to another team member that is super helpful to make that impact.

Rachel Cooke 15:30

Yeah, so let's do one in develop, right. It's all about developing new skills. And I think for a lot of people that translates to, like, I need to go to a four day training program, or I need an executive coach. And the truth is, there are a million ways that we can find development, and maybe your company isn't investing in really rigorous programs right now. But hey, is there a project that you want to get a chance to have your hands on? Is there a committee you can ask to sit on? Is there something that you watch your boss do that you would like to suggest that you take off of his or her plate, right? "Hey, I watch you deliver this weekly report to your boss every week, can I help you put that together? Could I lead a team meeting?" Right? It's about finding small ways to challenge yourself within the confines of your everyday work and asking for what you want. But not "hey, can you give me $10,000 so I can go to this conference?" I mean, if the money is there, go for it. But don't let yourself off the hook and say, "Well, if I can't go to this $10,000 conference, I'm just not getting development." It's about being creative, and finding ways to challenge yourself and grow your skills that are easy. They're easy for your boss to say yes to. How could your boss say, "No, no, I prefer to do this heavy lift myself, you go back to your desk" right? It's sort of a can't lose situation. So that's the type of example I would look for there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:49

Well, I think what's really interesting about that, too, is after you build a behavior pattern of doing that, what people don't think about is their training their boss or training their co-workers to be able to be responsive to that. And after you do a couple of those smaller requests, you're starting to build a track record, you're starting to build a pattern of behavior, and they're expecting more of that. And then it's easier to go to the "Hey, can we use this $20,000 for development or whatever it might be?" It's so much easier to make that bridge from there.

Rachel Cooke 17:16

Totally. That is exactly right. That is exactly right. It is about creating small wins and building momentum along the way so that over time you gain permission to maybe ask for bigger ones.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:28

Yeah. Okay, this is so good. Let's do another pillar.

Rachel Cooke 17:31

Oh, okay. So connect. I think connection has always been important. But it is at the top of my list right now. There's so many people who are feeling so disconnected. And I think that we need to be intentional. I think what's most important is that we don't default to assume that connection only happens in one way. Finding ways to connect with people and ask them you know, "what do you need?" If you yourself are feeling disconnected, what can you ask for? How can you role model reaching out checking you with somebody asking for help? I think that's a really important thing to do. But also staying connected not just to individuals, and not just a community, but also feeling connected to purpose. So if you take a look around at how you've just spent your day, can you see how whatever tasks you've done, actually drive, whatever impact your company is delivering? Or do you feel like you've just spent your day doing a whole bunch of busy work that just feels really disconnected? And if you can't find that connection, go talk to your boss, go talk to a colleague, but ask them, "Hey, help me understand, like, listen, we're in financial services. And as a company, I think it's amazing that we help consumers get access to loans, so they can buy a home or they finance so they can retire. But like I spend six hours a day in this spreadsheet that feels pretty mundane and administrative, like am I adding value here?" Find ways to really check. And by the way, if you are spending six hours a day on something that isn't adding value, can you find a way to simplify that a little bit so that you can get a little bit more time back and do something that makes you feel a little bit more connected to customers? Do some customer research or do some whatever would make you feel more connected to purpose, but being mindful of how connected do you currently feel, and what can you do to take one small step in the right direction.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:21

I think that's so powerful and the research around all of that is unequivocal. All the studies, every single one that I've seen supports that if you cannot directly see and connect how what you're doing is making an impact, then it's not going to feel fulfilling for very long, there's going to be an exploration or a honeymoon period that wears off and then it's going to not be particularly rewarding in any way whatsoever. So I appreciate you pointing that out. Okay, we have one pillar left here.

Rachel Cooke 19:51

We have one left. Oh, and it is thrive. And thriving is really just about like if everything else is getting you to baseline, thriving is where you're kind of soaring. So this to me is about boundaries. It's about feeling recognized, right? It's about feeling like people would feel your absence if you weren't there. If you feel like you're burning the candle at both ends, and you're burning out, can you talk to your boss? Can you ask for help? Can you ask for the boundaries that you need him or her to respect? Or if you feel like you're giving it your all, and you're just kind of being taken for granted, can you ask for recognition? And you don't have to call it recognition, you don't have to say, "Listen, I've been working hard. So I would like some extra cash or a reward here." Now that can feel really uncomfortable. But what you can do is sit down with your boss and say, "Hey, I've really been putting my all into this project. And I just don't feel like I've heard much. I wonder if you have any feedback from me. How's it going?" And a lot of times what will happen is your boss will say something like, "oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. I've been so focused on the people who've been underperforming, I just haven't had a chance to come back and tell you like, "Hey, you're doing an amazing job." Or if there's a chance that you're putting your all into a piece of work, and it's actually not being well received, then it gives your boss a chance to give you that feedback. But either way, if you're not feeling recognized, asking for it, or asking for feedback to help you understand what could get you recognized and also letting your boss know or your peers know how you like to be recognized. Some people like a public celebration, some people just want a quiet email, some people see recognition as when I'm doing great work, I feel recognized when other people seek out my expertise, you know, recognition comes in many forms. And so reflecting on how you like to experience it, and then asking for it and also role modeling it, those are some great ways to turn up the dial on that one.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:43

And I think that's a really common theme for every area that you've mentioned so far, whether it's recognition, or whether it's how you connect back what work you're doing to having an impact or any other area, it looks different for every single person. And recognition is such a great example of that. Because I have met many people over the years where they have a negative association with recognition based on some of you know, how they were raised. And like, I don't need no recognition. I don't know why that voice comes out. I'm not sure where that came from. However, yeah, that's real. And understanding that it looks drastically different per person, it can be so useful, because then you can go and have that conversation that you're talking about and say, "Hey, look. Here's what I need. And here's a good example." And I'm super curious to ask what works for you too, but for me, part of recognition is having conversations with people where they will confide in me, and would never tell what they're telling me to anybody else. Like I've had that happen with so many co-workers over the years. And that's something that I love. I love being in that. I love having the relationship that leads to that. And that's when I feel recognized where they're sharing things they wouldn't share with anyone else. And it was a great space in HR, like that worked really well as an HR partner in some cases. But so what is it for you?

Rachel Cooke 23:00

Yeah, so for me, it's not about glory, it's not about thank you, the greatest way you can recognize me is when we're having a conversation and you say something like, "Oh, I hadn't thought about it that way. Or, oh, I hadn't realized that." But you give me a verbal indication that through our conversations, something has unlocked for you. That is the greatest gift you can give me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:21

Love that. I love that and they appreciate you sharing. That is really helpful. And thank you for going into all of the examples. Something else that I wanted to ask you, just in our last little bit here is if you're well, let's go back to that maybe even pre six years ago, you're in that position, where you are not getting what you need, whether it is growth, whether it is any of these four pillars, any piece of any of these four pillars, what advice, would you give that person who's there and recognize that they're not getting what they want?

Rachel Cooke 23:54

The biggest piece of advice I can give to anybody is, if you're not getting what you need, do not sit back and say, "Well, I guess my company is failing me. I guess the organization is failing, I guess my boss is failing me." I would challenge you to... now, sometimes that is true, right? You might be in a toxic environment, you might not have a career path. But before you make that decision, I would really challenge you to sit back and say, "well, if they're not going to do it, what can I do for myself?" And really think that through and sort of implement as many tests and experiments as you can before you decide to call it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:33

Hey, something I want to let you know, the seemingly impossible career change stories that you hear on the podcast, are actually from people just like you who are listening to this podcast and decided to take action and have a conversation with our team. If you want to implement what you heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. Here's what I would suggest, just take your phone right now, open it up, go to your email app, and type me an email, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team and you can have a conversation with us. We'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and support you in your situation. So open that up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line to Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 25:40

Somewhere along the way, corporate recruiting started to not be a fit for me. And so I felt a lot of empathy and a lot of like sitting in my candidate's seat. I really started to feel those same things that they were feeling.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:53

Okay, what happens when you decide your current job no longer fits you? Yes, it can be jarring to realize the role you once thought was the perfect fit is no longer right for you. But we see this happen all the time. And I've experienced it myself. Many times what's happened is your values or your priorities have shifted as time has gone on and you've realized you want something else that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. And, yes, it can be difficult to accept that you've outgrown the role that you envisioned you would be in for the long haul, but it can be even more difficult to leave that role, to leave that situation. But don't let your aversion to loss or risk keep you trapped in an unfulfilling opportunity. It's possible to find a new fulfilling role.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:44

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Ben Fox 00:01

If you're thinking about career change, if this has been on your mind at all, to me, that means there's a part of you, probably your gut, your intuition, that's trying desperately to get your attention.

Introduction 00:20

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:44

I was recently in Charleston, South Carolina, and the tour guide was stopping us every few minutes to let us know a fun fact. But our facts actually weren't all that fun. They were facts, but they were not that exciting. However, I want to tell you a fun fact. But I also want to preface it by saying it's science related. So you know, stick with me here. Did you know that scientists call the stomach the second brain? You may have heard that before. There's actually a network of 100 million neurons lining your entire digestive tract. That means that your brain is constantly working in tandem with your gut. Everyone knows what it feels like to have a pit in your stomach as you weigh a decision. That's the gut talking loud and clear. So when it comes to your career, and you feel like something is wrong, that's actually a wonderful indicator for you to stop, reevaluate, and choose a different direction.

Ben Fox 01:41

I'll say, I'm the type of person that has to listen to my intuition. I live without regrets as much as I can.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:51

Today, you're in for a special treat. One of our career coaches on team Happen To Your Career, Ben Fox, is joining me on the podcast for the very first time. Ben is an ACC certified coach who helps people stretch beyond, far beyond, what they thought was possible, achieve their dreams, fall in love with life, not just their work. Ben knows what it's like to feel lost when it comes to your career. He's done that. Been there before. And spent many years, after college, hopping from job to job, situation to situation, not really exactly knowing what he wanted. What he didn't realize at the time was that all of those seemingly random jobs were actually allowing him to experiment with his career. And eventually, he was able to take all his learnings and that experimentation to pinpoint his ideal career. And more importantly, I'm really excited for you to get to know Ben, because all of those experiments, all of those learnings, all those things that he was doing for himself at the time, has now made him an expert, as it relates to helping other people do the exact same thing. Here he is taking us back to his very first job.

Ben Fox 03:00

I started working at the summer camp I went to, which my brothers went to, my mom went to, in upstate New York, and I was a camp counselor. So this was like the first experience I had, understanding how to work with other humans, guide them, help them enjoy what was going on, resolve conflicts. I love that work. People thought I would be at summer camp for the rest of my life, which was flattering, but not true. But I did love that experience before going to college. And throughout college, I continued in a similar vein, I was an after school tutor and summer camp counselor, again, my third year in college, I also worked at our radio station on to University of Wisconsin, so go badgers.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:00

Go badgers.

Ben Fox 04:03

And got to see what it was like to work at a radio station with some of my peers. I love music. I was also a DJ at the radio station, have my own show every week.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:15

I don't think I knew about that. I don't think I knew about the DJ experience. So in my mind, you've just notch like two or three levels up. So I'm curious, you know, through that time period, what was that like for you? What was fun about that? What was less exciting than it sounds?

Ben Fox 04:37

A big part of my job at the radio station, that was a summer job. But I was a DJ there for about two and a half years. A bunch of that job was sitting at the desk, making sure the students and community members who had their shows had everything they needed, making sure... It was more of an operations and front desk type of role. I've loved interacting with people and listening to their shows. But it got pretty boring because people were self sufficient. That being said, it was a summer where I cobbled together a full time schedule between that, and working at this summer camp program as a counselor, which was super fun. I mean, I got to have fun with children, playing games, going outside, couple trips here and there. So balancing that with working with other adults was lovely in the summertime in Madison, if you've ever been in the Upper Midwest, and the summer is ideal, some of the best memories from being in the Midwest for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:50

Very cool. And interesting that you piece together a portfolio career, long before it was popular to have any kind of a portfolio career. So way to be a trendsetter. And it makes me curious about what happened next as you moved on and started to explore beyond that, what did that look like for you?

Ben Fox 06:12

Thanksgiving of my last year in school, in college, I remember coming home, and the pressure was starting to build that I was about to graduate. I didn't know what I wanted. I was an English creative writing major in college. I like to read, I like to write, like, how do I apply that to adulthood. And I remember coming home for that break, and just sobbing in front of my parents, because I was so unsure of what to do with my life. The pressure was real. They told me to not worry, they were great about it, you'll figure it out, you'll do things, you'll probably do many different things before you figure it out. And luckily, my lease was through August, and I stayed in Madison for the summer, did the same type of work with the summer camp. But upon leaving, promptly took a trip to Europe for two months.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:11

As you do.

Ben Fox 07:12

Get out... As you do. As one does. One of those big backpacks on my back and want to couchsurfing and hostels. And when I came back, I got my first college job. This was the first turning point for me. And realized, I want to commit fully to a career path. I don't know which one yet, but I need to commit, started thinking about what does that look like. And drawing on my experience as an after school tutor, summer camp counselor, I thought why not be a teacher. So I saw that the charter schools in New York City would hire interns, get to do a little bit of the work and see if you want to become a teacher, and they can help fast track you after a year. I ended up getting that job, paid very low, it's like 25k in New York City. And two weeks in, I had to check in with my principal, this was a Tuesday. The students were getting there Thursday and Friday. And she says to me, "Ben, we're hiring for this third grade teacher role. And the people we're interviewing are pretty good. But after seeing how you work, and talking to the third grade team, we decided that you're going to be the new third grade social studies teacher. Congratulations. You're in." And I literally couldn't speak. I'd never taught before. I'd never been in front of a classroom of 20-25 students and worked with this age group, third graders, seven or eight year olds, but not as a full time teacher. And very little time to prepare. I did not go to school for education, my salary more than doubled though. And I wanted to commit to a career path, try something out, move to Brooklyn. And with this, I was able to do all those things. I say this to a lot of people as well, that job was the hardest thing I've done professionally.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:10

What made it particularly difficult for you when you think back and you think about what was hard? How would you describe that?

Ben Fox 09:18

It was an extreme mismatch. It matched my skill set in some ways. I love working with people, helping them grow and learn and expand. But this particular school and I think some charter schools are definitely like this are very much focused on discipline, classroom management. As a first year teacher who had very little training to be a teacher, the students can sniff out that you don't know how to control the classroom.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:51

It's like they can sense the fear.

Ben Fox 09:54

They can. And I was afraid. I was thrown into the lion's den. After about a month and a half, two months, I wasn't in front of the classroom until my coach, who had been teaching for a while got stuck because of a snowstorm on a Sunday night and said, "Listen, tomorrow is the day. You're going to be in front of the classroom." And that's for different classes of 20 to 25 students each. So the challenge was, and this was part of the opportunity that's presented and why I got so excited about the school and charter schools was, it was so much focused on we're gonna go to some of the poorest communities, usually black and brown communities, in inner cities. This part was in Brooklyn. I grew up in the north of the city– New York City's my home. So I wanted to be in Brooklyn. Always love Brooklyn. And it's presented as a transformational thing that we'll be doing with students, we're going to change education, we're going to give students the chance to get through high school and get to a great college, "Mike, who wouldn't be on board with that? I'm so excited to transform people's lives in this way." But when you get down to it, so much of the work was managing a classroom and being a disciplinarian. My students had to sit with their arms across their desk, fingers interlaced, back up straight, they had to look at the person who was speaking, I remember saying "Track Jonathan when he's speaking" it felt like I had to be a disciplinarian. Think of like Matilda, or any movie or show where there's a teacher who scares everybody, I was like, "I have to become that. That's not me." And I realized, I didn't know how to do it any other way, either. Because I had no training as a teacher. My way of being with children is a ton of listening, showing them love, letting them explore. I couldn't do that. And there were moments where that happened. And I think the students felt that I just genuinely cared. And that's where any of my success came from. Other than that, I had to be at that school by 7am, and be there until 430ish. And I would spend longer being there because I had to practice my lessons, I had to clean up the classroom, things that have second, third, fourth year teachers they've got down. So my days were long. And I'll say the moment when I realized this was not for me, it was that December, right before winter break, I went to a concert with two of my best friends from childhood at Terminal five in Manhattan. And I remember it was a Friday night, and I was standing up, falling asleep, I could not stay awake. And I knew in that moment that I had to figure out how to leave that job sooner than later.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:05

When you realize that it was not a fit, what did that cause you to think about and what were your next steps from there?

Ben Fox 13:14

It was an extreme situation where over that winter break, I seriously considered quitting without knowing anything about what I wanted next. And the conversation I was having with my family, with friends was, "Hey, I know this is tough, give it a full school year. Because it's not just you thing, your team, all these students who are growing to love you. I know it's hard, but you've made it this far. It's gonna get brighter and warmer throughout this part of the year, you know, January through June, it will get better. Make it through that year." So that became my focus. I will make it to June and then I'm going to take the summer off, because I'm exhausted. But I think I could do it. And I'll just say, I was 23 the time people generally have a ton of energy. I was shot.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:11

So let me ask you about that really quickly. Looking back now, knowing what you know now and having worked with many other people are in transition, it seems like some of the difficulty of that first year in teaching was twofold. It seems like there were some elements that were a clear, non fit. Also, it seems like there were some elements that were just attributed to learning and growth because as you said, like, that's your first year, you're sort of thrown into it in many different ways, and hadn't necessarily developed the skill sets in that environment in that particular way to be able to really be comfortable operating in there. So what I'm curious about is when you look back, you know, how much of that do you attribute to the newness and the skill side and how much of that do you attribute to the non fit? Just tell me a little bit about what you know now.

Ben Fox 15:04

I think in another life, I might have been a teacher. But I think the misfit as far as hours I'm not an early morning person. I'm not. That was real. That was a huge adjustment. That was debilitating, I'd say. That it's worse. And being in an environment that started me out that summer, that July, I remember being in an auditorium with all the new teachers, some who had been there for a while. And the energy was palpable. People were excited and like hitting their chairs and the energy was there. I was like this, yes, this is why I would do this. And then the reality was pretty tough to witness. Like kids getting almost dragged out of rooms when they were causing a ruckus, having to treat seven year olds, like they were in the military. This is not a dig on charter schools, I want to make that clear, but my experience was one where the love and care came after following the rules and the discipline.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:16

And getting to know you, too, that doesn't align with what you value at all. So I can see a clear misalignment there.

Ben Fox 16:23

Yeah. And I just... I could tell in my gut, this saying that, "I know I have a lot to offer. And if I stay in school, I will dim my light." So the ability to envision what was next was very weak. And I was running away from not running to really anything. And I think a lot of people have this experience where something then comes into your life, like, "Okay, that's better" which did end up happening. My dad is an entrepreneur. He was mostly in TV and film, had a huge idea, because he's an idea person and created a new company, and said, "Ben, I know you're miserable. Why don't you come work with me after your summer off?" And I said, "Oh my God, please. Thank you. Yes." There was no question that. And I really relish the opportunity to work with my dad intimately. Even if I wasn't in the chief role, or you know, VP, but like, supporting my dad in one of his dreams. Great experience. We still talk about the things we learned, and they'll still show me things and get my opinion, which I love. And what I took away from that experience was, I love being an entrepreneur. I love that lifestyle. It's something I saw growing up. But I'm missing what I got from teaching, that growth and development, helping people grow and learn, how do I put entrepreneur growth and development together. And that was something I was thinking about a lot back in 2015. And that kind of led to what's next.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:07

One of the things that stands out for me, is every part of your career, you're sort of thrust into something that is new for you. And that seems to be a pattern. So one of the things that I'm really curious about is, you know, sometimes we have, actually, I'll say a lot of the times we have people that we get to work with in one way or another where they're wondering, like, should I go into something that is completely new? Or should I leverage a variety of my experiences? Or should I stay in the same category, industry, occupation, and really change out something else that is vital, but smaller, and arguably smaller? So here's what I'm curious about, you know, now that you've done a number of switches many times over, in a number of industries, in a number of ways, in a number of roles, I'm just curious, what advice would you give for how to think about that? Because I know there's no perfect right answer, but just tell me a little about how you think about that now.

Ben Fox 19:17

Advice to my younger self, my 20s self, is that it's okay to experiment. I don't think most liberal arts degrees set up people very intentionally to know what they want when they leave college. And I think there's an almost existential pressure that we have to figure out what we love and follow our passion. I think it's we work that had that logo of do what you love. And I don't think I would have been able to figure that out if I didn't do all these different things. An experiment. And I think the questions that you're talking about that clients ask, it is so particular to you and your life, like I reflect back on where I come from and who my family was, I felt pretty sheltered, and needing to figure that out was really after college when I wanted my own life, and to live in Brooklyn and be on my own. And I think there are a lot of people out there that have to figure this out, like have to figure out how can I make money and pay my bills way earlier. And I think those people have a leg up as far as knowing how to work and knowing how to get jobs that fit the bill for them. But I think, unfortunately, a lot of folks who've had that type of experience, also have been given the option, or, "Hey, it's okay to explore." I think folks coming from that type of background would be immeasurably helped by doing these little experiments. Doesn't mean you have to quit your job. But like, we need to experiment with things that you know you want, even if it's a little bit every week. And that's what I would tell those people.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:21

Yeah, I think about... That's really interesting that you say that, because I think about, like, Haley, who we had on the podcast a while back. And in her case, she had been with her same organization for, you know, almost a decade, maybe even longer now that I think about it. And you know, she'd promoted up the ranks really quickly. But she had been in the same organization, the same area, per se, for a really long period of time. And she hadn't necessarily during that decade, that 10 years, done a lot of exploration. So well, she had gotten very, very good and very, very skilled and moved up the ranks into an executive role very, very quickly. She felt like she had missed out and suffered herself on that exploration piece. So I think what is interesting to me, like you were just referring to your 20s, but I think it's just as applicable to other points in life too, especially if people had the opportunity to explore because they have been focused on their career in a different way leading up to it. So I think that exploration is potentially applicable to all ages.. We had at one point worked with somebody who is in their 70s. And that's really what they were looking for. They felt like never got the opportunity to explore. And it's fascinating to me how transferable, the same thing is, all different decades, all different periods and ages. But here's what... how shall I say it... When you got into that role, that opportunity to work with your dad, and I'm curious what happened next? What caused you to decide that, hey, this is something I need to move on from. I've enjoyed the experience with my dad. But what what caused you to say, "hey, now it's time."?

Ben Fox 23:08

I missed what I did like from teaching. I had that revelation of how do I put the things I liked from both of these experiences together. And so I started interviewing therapists, social workers, counselors, and people told me I need to go back to school. I had to get a certification that would take a long time. I was not interested. And I remember one person said, Ben, it sounds like you actually want to be a coach. I was like, "What are you talking about? I've played soccer most of my life. I've had coaches in that regard. What is this other coach thing?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:53

What is this coach make me a speaker?

Ben Fox 23:56

Yeah. It seems like a fiction that someone made up. This isn't a career. So that became my focus. I started interviewing life coaches, career coaches, executive coaches, "What do you do? What's your day to day? How did you get into this?" Using my curiosity to guide those conversations, I was hooked. This was back in 2015. And was hooked enough to say, I think this is what I want to do. Let me find out how I can be trained to do this. And I looked at a lot of different programs online, and the only one I could find that would allow me to see what they do was with accomplishment coaching. I was able to be a fly on the wall for their year-long program. I was there for two and a half hours on a Saturday. Just seeing what month six of their program looks like that day. And this was truly an eye opening moment jaw to the floor. I could not believe how vulnerable and communicative people were in that room, the participants in the program and they were just in month six, I was blown away. And needless to say, I signed up for that program two weeks later. And that really jumps started the part of my life that I think I'm in right now. I went through an accomplishment coachings year long training program. This also coincided with a move from New York to St. Louis for love. So I made that move to St. Louis, started that coach training program up in Chicago, I travel to Chicago a weekend every month, and started building my coaching practice pretty quickly, because they make you do that, like, the way you're going to be a good coach is by not being a good coach right now. But you gotta start. And I love the work. I was in love with coaching pretty quickly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:58

Now, here's what I find fascinating about this set of transitions for you. Every single point along the way, and I know we haven't talked about every single one of them in detail. But for you every single point along the way, you're learning a bit more, a bit more, a bit more about what you want. So here's what I'm very curious about, you know, when you started coaching, and as you continue learning about what you want, what was different than what you originally perceived? And what did you learn about what you needed versus what you thought you needed?

Ben Fox 26:33

I learned that the work fueled me, coaching people and seeing them make truly transformations, not even changes but transform their lives. There's been nothing like that in my life that I've experienced, and it gave me energy. And I wanted to keep doing that and get better at that. I also didn't realize that being an entrepreneur, a solopreneur involves so many other aspects that I was uninterested in. For example, to be a successful coach, you need to be talking to build that business from scratch, be talking to many, many, many, many, many, many, many people every week. And there's this huge funnel of people you talk to, people that say yes to a sample session, to people that actually sign up. When I was going to networking events every week, talking to everyone I knew in my network. I remember I felt like I tapped out the people that I was close with, I had their phone number, like I had called almost everybody. And it was exhausting. And not exhausting, because I didn't like talking to people. But because it was so hard to get people to hire me. And I worked on that, of course, over the next couple of years and went back to accomplishment coaching in 2017 and 18 as a mentor coach, helping people go through the program and coaching them and still having that community of support. But I've had very little training on how to build a successful business flat out. And I knew that that part of the journey did not feel me. It felt like I'm doing all this work to get people to just talk to me or have a sample session. And I just want to be coaching right now. Like I will be flexing this skill. And this love I have for something as the main thing I do and not have the hustle, which is what it started to feel like to be what I'm doing day to day.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:40

I think that that's a really common experience that I see people have as they start to get further into any kind of career change, where they have to actively disassociate what they believe are their perceptions about what a thing is, what an occupation is, what an industry is, or what they believe they love and what has to come with it. So the question I want to ask for you is for someone else who's in that situation, where they have, you know, done a certain thing in a certain way, but loved elements of it, what advice would you give them to look beyond what they can see? Because sometimes that's really hard when you're in the mix of it. And yeah, so what advice would you give for them to look beyond what they might be able to see visible right there or a way that they think it has to be done?

Ben Fox 29:30

I was coaching someone today around this, where she was mentioning the things she didn't like about her current job and some past jobs. And I encouraged her, "Hey, let's look at those things. That's important. But what's the flip side of it?" So for me, I really didn't like the hustle and that part of building my own business. So what's the flip side of that? And through my own exploration, I found that I want a situation where clients are provided for me. And my job is to coach and to be at a company that's doing that. So I'd say for people, you probably know what it is you don't like, and to invest some time with yourself, with people you love, with your coach, if you have one, to think through what's on the opposite end of that spectrum that would give you actually what you want that was not being fulfilled in that situation or the situations previously.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:37

That's great advice. So I'm curious, aside from the transformation, which you mentioned that you love, what are the other elements where you've grown to realize that being able to coach people, especially through career changes, and working in that type of capacity, what have you realized for yourself that really aligns with what you enjoy, and what you're good at?

Ben Fox 31:02

I find that when people start talking to me, they get this sense of calm pretty quickly, that I think I bring to conversation.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:12

You're kind of a calm dude. I think it's easy to be calm around you.

Ben Fox 31:17

I love that. I own that. It took a while, but I own that about myself. And it allows me to just be with people, and then they can reciprocate that, which is how I build relationships. That's how I build anything is being myself, being an honest transparent person, sometimes to a fault. But when it comes to my profession, the work I do, it's been so validating to this about myself, create the environment from the first interaction I'm having with someone so that they can feel present, calm, and they tell me things that they don't know, sometimes even their partner, or their parents, because they know it's just gonna be between us, and I'm here fully for you. And I love that every conversation I'm having as a coach is different. And I am continuously impressed by, like, I'll have a day where I'm like, "I don't want to coach. I don't want to talk to anyone." And then I get into a conversation with a client, and I lose all sense of time. I'm fully engrossed in this person's life. It's almost like watching a movie that you love, you just can't take your eyes off the screen, you don't want to press pause. And I get to do that with so many different wonderful people being let into this person's universe, with the trust that "hey, together, we're gonna get you to this next chapter book of your life" is such a gift.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:02

I love that. And here's the last question I wanted to ask you. Because you've made a lot of pivots, and a number of career changes, arguably, more than some people make in their entire life. And my question is, you know, think back to the beginning of any one of those where you're at the end of one chapter, if you will, and starting to question whether or not you should make a change, because that's where many people who are listening to this are apt in one way or another. So what advice would you give to that person?

Ben Fox 33:36

I'll say, I'm the type of person that has to listen to my intuition. I live without regrets as much as I can. I'd rather do something and be like, "Ah, shouldn't have done that." Then be like, "What if I moved to St. Louis? What would have happened?" I don't like to live with regrets. That's me. And I think that we all are intuitive. As humans, as people, we have strong intuition. So if you're thinking about career change, you've already come to some type of conclusion that your current situation is missing something for you. So in a sense, and when you... if you work with me, you'll see, I'm going to pick up on that pretty quickly, because I want what's best for you. I want what you really want for you. And in your heart, in your heart of hearts, in your soul, it's already known. I think a lot of great coaching is unearthing what already exists. So again, if you're thinking about career change, if this has been on your mind at all, to me, that means there's a part of you, probably your gut, your intuition, that's trying desperately to get your attention. And I think one of the hardest things for us to do is kind of let go and actually listen to that part of ourselves. And I think that's, again, where great coaching can help you get in touch with that part of yourself and deal with the fear that comes with it. Because you're going to have to change to make that happen, but it's so wonderful when you do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:26

I know we've talked about on the podcast once or twice over the years, the idea that being able to listen to yourself, and stop ignoring yourself at some place is actually a skill and a set of skills, in fact, and, you know, that's part of what I hear you referring to. And I think that that is so valuable. And I know that that's something that you're great at too. So I appreciate you bringing that up. I'm pumped to call you a part of our team at HTYC. And I really appreciate you taking the time and sharing your story.

Ben Fox 36:02

Thanks for having me, Scott. I'm thrilled.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:10

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest. Take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who you can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like, and the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 37:07

I feel like in my own support circle, there was just kind of this feeling of like, "Oh, work is work, and you're never going to enjoy it."

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:15

I cannot tell you the number of times I've heard someone say well, "work is supposed to be hard. That's why it's called work." Or even, "work is supposed to suck." It's the mindset that has been ingrained in us as a society. We are unconsciously taught from a young age that work is a grueling duty. And we have to put in our dues during our prime working years, because that's just the way the world. Luckily, this narrative is very misguided and people are starting, just barely starting, to realize that work doesn't actually have to suck. And it all starts by looking inward and asking, "Do I really want work to feel like work? Or could it feel differently?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:03

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Kat Bolikava 00:01

I never really stopped to listen to myself, or to ask myself, "what is it that you're passionate about?"

Introduction 00:14

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:39

Chances are high. You've probably heard the question, "what would you be doing for work if money were no object?" I know it's a pretty common question. It's also a pretty big question. And I don't expect you to have the answer right away. But thinking on that, and being honest with yourself about that, is one way to begin figuring out what you truly want. Often, our goals are so clouded by society standards, and what everybody else thinks you should do, or what a good life looks like, supposedly, or a great career looks like that we never really drill down and figure out what we truly want and what we want to spend our time doing. Even the crazier part, many times, it's our own limiting beliefs that prevent us from seeing how great we already have it.

Kat Bolikava 01:29

How do I get out of this cycle? How do I approach this? Because I see it but it's like a vicious circle that I cannot break. I was completely lost, not knowing what it is that I should be doing. Not even that I wanted to do, but that I should be doing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:44

That's Katsiaryna Bolikava, better known by her friends as Kat. Kat had emigrated to the United States, graduated from college, and years later found herself feeling stuck with no idea of how to progress her career. She's always envisioned, she would find her ideal role in the corporate world, and that achievement would be the final puzzle piece that would make everything else in her life fall into place. What she didn't realize was that the job she had been working in for over a decade, just to get by, was actually checking almost all the boxes for what she wanted in her career and her life. So strangely, it turned out that the work she needed to do wasn't actually changing industries or careers. Instead, it was clarifying her vision and challenging her own limiting beliefs. I'm excited for you to hear her talk about her lightbulb moment. Pay attention to that, as we get into this conversation and how this breakthrough opened up so many possibilities for her. Here's Kat talking about her decision to come to the US.

Kat Bolikava 02:51

So my story is somewhat unorthodox. Just because I was born and raised in a foreign country, I was born and raised in Belarus. And I moved to the United States at the age of 19. And I had no intention of staying or sticking around, there was just a college program that allowed me to work and travel. And after I got in, then I realized that I could make something out of myself here without necessarily my parents' help or anyone else's. I just saw the opportunities. And it was more of a gut feeling like I didn't make plans. I didn't bring the money with me. I didn't, like, I had nothing on me, but $500 and a little duffel bag. So it was a totally spontaneous decision. And a lot of people thought that, well, now when people hear my story, they say that, "Oh, you must have been so terrified." And I'm like, actually, "I wasn't. I don't remember being scared. It was just kind of like, I'm going to try it out." Then I thought it was inspiring. I remember myself being very hopeful. I was very much a dreamer back then. And I looked at that, and I was like, wow, it's really about what you can do, what you can make out of yourself. Because I come from a country where if you don't have connections, and I mean, it's true for a lot of countries, including the US, like, of course, like you look at politicians, they come from these families and Ivy League schools and whatnot. But in Belarus, it's very common to see that if your parents don't have connections, or if they didn't make a phone call, then you won't be able to get a job that you should be able to get based on your education. But in America when I got here, and I got my first job as a phone girl at a pizza store, right? And somebody took a chance on me and I crashed on someone else's couch until I figured out where I was gonna stay but it felt achievable. It felt like if I try hard enough, if I work hard, if I'm not afraid to work, if I ask doors below enough for me that it's achievable, I felt very much optimistic and inspired by the fact that I can finally test my own abilities and to see, if I'm as much of a hotshot as I like back in the day. And so yeah, it was definitely challenging, but it was a challenge that I was looking forward to.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:22

At what point did you realize that you wanted to test that out, per se?

Kat Bolikava 05:31

Well, it was fight or flight. It was, if I don't make it, there's a return ticket home, I still have it as a relic. But I'm like, "I'll give this my best shot. And if I don't make it here in the United States, then I can always come and go back home." But the opportunity, like when people say that this is the country of opportunities, and I hear sometimes people say that, "no, it's a lot harder than people think" It is hard. I'm not gonna lie. I used to work 70-80 hours a week. And I mean, thank God, I was young. I still am. But thank God, I was in my 20s where my body can handle this much walking and pressure, but it's not easy. But it is very rewarding. Like the freedom of decisions I have today, the freedom of lifestyle, the freedom of choice, the open mindedness that I developed, it's just... I would never trade it back for that comfort and kind of this big bubble that I used to have. Yeah, so I believe when people say America is a place of dreams, where dreams come true, I've lifted. I'm living in. And I couldn't agree more. I'm very grateful for every single opportunity this country has provided for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:48

So what happened from there for you?

Kat Bolikava 06:50

When I came to the United States, my first thing was like, my first idea was okay, "I have to get education." So I started going to Community College of Philadelphia and got A's in all the courses. And that was it. I'm like, I have no idea what I'm interested in, because I tried to pursue everything at the same time and get A's and everything. So I never really stopped to listen to myself or to ask myself, "What is it that you're passionate about? What is the one thing that inspires you?" So I was at the crossroads, and my professors were like, "Well, there's a great college. It's called Bryn Mawr College, and it's comparable to an Ivy League school. It's a private girls school." And they were like, "Well, why don't you apply there?" And so after a rigorous process of like writing essays and interviews and references from my professors, I got accepted. And I didn't know what kind of blessing that was going to be because I had no idea what kind of college that was. Like to me, education is education. I had no idea that there's this scale of colleges of like, this is your State Colleges, this is your Ivy League schools, this is the creme de la creme, so I had no idea what I got myself into. And best two years of my life, I managed to go there for junior and senior years, got enough credits to graduate with a degree in political science. And I kind of thought that my life was going to take that path of life speak a couple of foreign languages, I come from a formerly and apparently now an enemy country, and I'm professionally trained in political science. So I thought I was gonna go into the government. I'm like, It's not crazy money, I'm never going to be a millionaire. But at least I'm going to have a nice social packet. I'm going to have a steady job. I'm going to have a career growth. And so that was kind of my line of thinking and reasoning. And I didn't have citizenship until 2017. So it was really hard to apply for jobs, the government's position without citizenship. So that kind of drags the process a little bit. And then after I got the citizenship, I started applying for jobs. And the only thing I could find was a Homeland Security job, a job with Homeland Security to be a Customs and Border Protection Officer, which that's the job where people who are checking the passports and basically your papers as you enter in the country at the airports or land crossings or sea ports. And so I got into that program, I was over the moon, I'm like, "Finally my life is gonna take off, my career is gonna take off." But in the meantime, through college and trying to find some kind of more steady employment, I was working the whole time because I had to provide for myself and pay my tuition and bills. And so I worked at restaurants. I worked at different restaurants. I started as a phone girl, and then I learned how to waitress and then I learned how to bartend and so I did those, I use those skills interchangeably at different places to make a living. And so when I finally got the job with Homeland Security, I thought that that was my big break, I'm like, "Okay, this is it. I'm just gonna suck it up for a couple of years in this entry position, and then doors will open up for me." And I got into the program and they have training in Georgia, it's a Federal Law Enforcement Training Center and I got an injury. It's 2019, I got an injury during the training, and they terminated my employment in December 2019. And they tell me to give me a like, clean, dismissal form. They're like, "no strings attached, go wherever you want." And the only place I've ever known was Philadelphia. So I came back to Philly. And then COVID starts. So again, the feeling was, when I came to the United States at 19, and 10 years later, when I got fired from the job, I felt in the same status that I was 10 years before. So I had no money, no place to stay, no job, no options that I knew off ahead of me. So it was absolutely terrifying. It was devastating. I felt like a failure. And I didn't know if I was gonna come out of it, and how I was going to come out of it. And then COVID started. And that just added insult to injury. So it was a really scary time. And it was only three years ago, like, to think of this, like, I was there recently.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:28

It's not that long ago. So what happened from there then? What caused you to be able to move through all those feelings, and then move into the next step, what happened next?

Kat Bolikava 11:40

Basically, after recovering my foot, and deriving the pandemic, I found myself at a restaurant against. Restaurants have always been my safe harbor in terms of providing for myself. It's not an amazing income, but it's an income that allows me to feel comfortable. It was comforting that I am doing the job that I know all the ins and outs of, and I'm very good at. But at the same time, it feels like I'm a failure. It's felt like okay, you have all of this education, you come from a different country with all of this background, and your parents are expecting, for whatever reason, my parents opinion of me was really important. And so I felt like I am underperforming. I felt that I'm not using myself to the best of my abilities. I felt like I should aspire to something bigger, something more meaningful, something more fulfilling than a restaurant. I basically looked at a restaurant industry as something to get by on and not as a career. And I think that's where that, not resentment, but the feeling of being accomplished was coming from. And I'm like, "Okay, I need to figure this out. Because I cannot keep applying for governmental jobs that I don't even know I'm going to like, it's just an idea in my head that that's something secure and steady, and it will be a good backbone, but I'm not even sure that this is the right fit for me. So what is the right fit?" I have all of these credentials, I have all of this background, I have all of these experiences where I persevered and pushed through but no results. No relief. No conclusion. I was so frustrated. I was just like, "Okay, how did people find what they find?" So I started looking online. I'm like, career coaching, career coaching here, career coaching there. I was looking on Google, how do people find what they find? How do people figure out what they want to do? How do people change careers? So I just started doing research. And your website popped up. I liked the message that it was Happen To Your Career, and not the other way around. And so I decided to give it a shot. And so I started working with Liz. And it didn't start off well. I came to our first session. And I was the ball of nerves. And I had that attitude of, "Okay, here's what I have. Tell me where I fit."

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:12

Get me all of the answers, Liz.

Kat Bolikava 14:15

And she didn't take it lightly. She was like, "This is not how this works." And she was nice about it. But I just remember that I came in, and we discussed it with her later on, like an hour, like, 18 or 17 sessions. She's like, "You came in with such a desire to prove that you're smart. It's like you came to prove to me that you're intelligent." So I kept saying, "I work at a restaurant. But I'm smart. I don't mind that I work at a restaurant. I'm smart." And she was like, "it was so obvious that you're trying to like, prove something." So that's how it started. And then the turning point was when we got to the ideal career profile.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:59

Tell me about that.

Kat Bolikava 15:00

So the questions you have on there are very simple. At first glance, I was like, "am I going to be answering these? Like, I'm really seriously, but this is..." Like, no, but like the questions are so simple, like, how long do you want to travel for work? For example, right? It's nothing excruciating. It's nothing that's making you, like, really think. But then when you start, so I looked over it, and I'm like, but then I sat down to look at it, like to answer it. And I started getting into the grips of it like, okay, so how much time do I want off? Do I want to work remotely? Or do I want to work at home? How many hours a day do I want to work? Do I want to work with people? Or do I want to work with machine? Like, it was such a simple question. But when I sat down and started answering those, and then I came to Liz for the next session, and we went over the job that I held at the time, which is the restaurant position, and my restaurant position matched, or satisfied, like 95% of what I want from a job. And that was a turning point in our discussion. Because from then on, I started looking at the restaurant industry, not as just something to get by on, something I do in my spare time, something that is for college students. But I'm like, it can actually be a full time career that will completely satisfy 95% of the needs that I listed that I want– certain flexibility, certain vacation time, certain work hours, certain schedule in terms of not being like rigid nine to five, but having pre mornings and pre night. It was perfect. And that's when Liz and I really started to get into the nitty gritty of it of, "okay, well, how do we make your restaurant job more enjoyable?" Because I liked the place that I'm working at, but I wanted more income, for example. And so we started working towards, "Okay, well, is there a promotion path? Is there room for promotion? Is there room for growth?" And I'm like, "Well, yeah." And so we started pursuing that. And today, I'm not just the bartender / server, I'm an Assistant General Manager, because I brought it up to the GM and I said, "Hey, I love your company. I want to grow with you guys. I look at this industry differently right now. I'm invested, I'm committed. And I'm no longer pursuing government positions. I want to give this a fair shot. This is my career. And because it's my career, I think that I've done for the past 12 or 13 years. And part of that path was with you, I have my experience, I've earned your trust. And now I want to evolve. So I would like for you to train me into a management position. I understand it's not going to happen overnight. But I'm just hoping that's Enzo, which is the name of the restaurant, is growing with the additional revenue with every quarter. I'm just hoping that there might be a position for me as assistant general manager, or something of that sort where I can feel that I'm not stuck in one place. And where I can be compensated more than what I am now, which is the two things that I'm looking for– to grow and to be compensated higher. And to my surprise, he was like, "I actually was gonna ask you if you were interested in one capacity or another because it's really hard for me to manage the whole place by myself in the front of the house and the back. So I need someone that I can delegate some responsibilities to. So I will pitch it to the owner. And we'll see we'll take it from there." And it just kind of everything came together, just from me asking.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:52

I love that. That's such a great story. Because first, there's so much that goes into that. It seems like it's one simple conversation, however, think about what went into creating that one simple conversation, you had to recognize the patterns and limiting beliefs and mindsets that you are experiencing. And that's one of the things that Liz said over and over. She said that you were very honest with yourself about your limiting beliefs and knew your patterns.

Kat Bolikava 19:22

Thank you. Well, I think you've summarized it very well. And I think that was a big part of my success is that I'm not afraid to say that I noticed that I have this pattern and I have this thought process or cycle that is preventing me from doing something productive for practice. And I'm asking for help. I asked Liz I'm like, "How do I get out of this thought cycle? How do I approach this because I see it but it's like a vicious circle that I cannot break. I was completely lost, not knowing what it is that I should be doing. Not even that I wanted to do but that I should be doing." And Liz was like a mirror for me. She reflected very honestly, everything I pitched at her. But then at the same time, because she's an outsider looking in, she saw kind of all of that scenario playing out. And she's like, "Yeah, but what are you really passionate about? Like, what is it that moves you that doesn't let you sleep at night? What is it that you do when you don't have to be at work?" And I'm like, "I go dance. I go Salsa dance." I was an addict, I was out five nights a week, I would go salsa dancing from like, 11pm to 2am. And then I watched people perform and teach. And I said, "I think I want to do that." And then Liz was like, Okay, and? Are you gonna do something about it?" And I'm like, "Well, I've always wanted to, but I have this imposter syndrome, that I don't have a bachelor's degree, that I don't have a certificate, that I don't... but you know, people come to me and say how amazing I look, but I don't feel qualified. Like, I feel like I need to have someone validating me to be qualified." And she's like, "Okay, let's work on that. Restaurant, we got. Let's work on this part." So I started training at a studio where I saw the potential for getting that, not a peace of mind, but like validation. So the way they teach technique, it's broken down so well, that I would feel very comfortable to break it down to other people. And so I started training there. I had the highest admiration for my instructor, and he saw the potential and the talent in me. And I started expressing to him, like I was more open, I said, "Listen, I think I want to pursue this. I want to be a salsa instructor, but I'm terrified. And I have all of these fears. And I don't really have support outside of my closest friends and my instructors. So what would you say?" And he said, "This is how I started off. It was just something I love doing." And he told me about his story. And it was absolutely inspiring. And he has been having his studio for 17 years now. And he's absolutely successful. And he can provide for himself just by doing that, which was one of my main concerns, if I can provide for myself just by doing salsa. So then Liz and I throw our work together, working on my enforced imposter syndrome. And then she gave me deadlines, up until which I had to accomplish a certain task, like create a flier with myself out there, make myself visible and announce that I'm teaching. And surprisingly, it's like witchcraft or something. I started getting clients. Like I started getting people who reached out to me and said, "Hey, I heard you teach. How much? How can I get in?" And so I started teaching privates at first, which is one on one exercise. And I had a few people sign up for that unexpectedly. And that went well. And then Liz was like, "Well, why don't you try group class? Why don't you try doing something that your instructors are doing?" So that was probably the hardest thing for me out of the whole program is to put myself out there and say, "This is me. I'm teaching, this is what I charge. This is the place. Come up." Like when I posted that flier on social media, I felt like I jumped off a cliff. Like I held my breath, as I'm pushing the button to post it. I cannot tell you that internal feeling of, it literally felt like I just jumped off a cliff and I didn't know if I was going to land. That was the feeling. Even though I was standing on the floor in a perfectly warm place with a phone in my hand. That's how terrified I was. But I find that those moments alone of me putting myself out there for the rest of the world to see, the biggest accomplishment of this whole program that I've taken with you guys, because that was the most fearful thing I probably ever had to do. Because it was conscious. It was overcoming my fears and challenges and overcoming this impostor syndrome, feeling and actually believing that I can do this, not from a certificate but believing because I feel it within myself that I can do this. So yeah. And then I had my first group class, six or seven people signed up. I had a four week cycle, it went great. And then my instructor in Jersey City offered me to teach at his studio once a month, which is a new development but I couldn't be more grateful because I look up to him. I mean, he's not a DD but I really look up to him. I think that he has really high standards. His studio has really high standards for teaching and I was just really shocked when he said, "why don't you come and teach for me?" I'm like "okay." So between January when I started taking classes, well, sessions with Liz and joined your program until September when I finished, my life changed in so many ways that I cannot even start to describe. It is like it changed my professional life at a restaurant changed, my self esteem of myself changed. I started teaching the things I love teaching. I gained more faith in myself. I understand myself better of what I want from a job and what I don't want, what I will accept, and what I won't accept, is just so many things. So between January and September, I've made more progress than in the past five years, trying to accomplish things on my own. And I give a lot of credit to your program and to Liz like to her sessions, because her talking me through it. And kind of allowing me and helping me not to get caught up in my own ideas and thoughts, but see a broader perspective, just cleaned open that mind a little bit that made a world of difference. And sometimes you just... it's like therapy. It's like therapy, but for your career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:06

Well, we are definitely not therapists, but I do immensely appreciate the really kind words. And I think that it's important to recognize that you're the one who did all of the hard work here. And it is not easy to do what we've just talked about. And you talked about going through and identifying what creates an amazing opportunity for you, what does extraordinary look like for you. And that's not easy work. It looks simple. But it's not easy work to go through and making all of these tiny decisions about what is wonderful. And when you do that, when you do that difficult work, then that's where those opportunities start to become visible. And I think that's what's fascinating about your story, many of these things were right there in front of you the whole time.

Kat Bolikava 26:55

It were. But I couldn't see them. Or I didn't allow myself to see them until I had someone holding my hands and telling me, "Look at this. And look at that. And look at that low hanging fruit. Why aren't you taking it?" So I've always had myself, right? You said that it's all my accomplishment. And I appreciate that. It was hard work. But I've been working hard for the past, what is it? 13 years that I'm in America, but it's only in the past. What is it seven months? That I actually was able to gain some really significant results where I feel at peace. I came into your program feeling restless, not knowing what I wanted to do, seeking for answers, feeling like a failure, feeling desperate, frustrated, all of those emotions. And today I'm speaking to you feeling at peace. Yes, there is room for improvement. Yes, I can do more things with salsa. Yes, I can pursue some better opportunities in terms of restaurant career. But I'm at peace. And I can do that from the place of, like, groundedness. I'm not just grabbing in any possible opportunity. I'm just grounded. And I can choose "Okay, this works. This fits my criteria." And I'm not desperate to just grasp at any straw that is going to be shown in front of me, whether it fits me or not, because a government job, to be honest, probably would have never fit me. I would probably be miserable there because they give you two weeks on vacation, which would have never worked for me because I go to see my family, my parents are aging, it's just not something that would have worked for me. It's very rigid. It's like nine to five, very strict, very black and white, very. And I'm all, like, cheery and flamboyant and outgoing. And I love loud and I love talking to people, probably Homeland Security or National Security Agency would not have been a good fit for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:56

Terrible fit for you.

Kat Bolikava 28:57

But this is where I was trying to get in. Because in my mind, it made sense. It's secure. It's a reliable career, I will have a career ladder, and bla bla bla bla bla, completely disregarding how it made me feel. Because to me it was, you have to achieve. It's not about what you feel, it's about what you should achieve, you should do that. And it made me completely miserable and restless. And I didn't see the break in that vicious circle until I came to your program. And Liz and that questionnaire that you have for your ideal career profile made me recognize that I'm actually living the life that I'm very comfortable in. I mean, yes, there are improvements and yes, like I've reached for them and I've gained them with Liz's help, but I didn't recognize that I was already in the place where I was meant to be in. And another interesting fact, when I went to college overseas because I was in my second year of college before I moved to the United States, my degree was called restaurant and hotel business.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:03

Oh, interesting.

Kat Bolikava 30:05

Yeah, so I've been working in accordance with my major, not my second major, but my first major for the past 13 years without even recognizing it, that was the right fit all along.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:22

Hey, many of the stories that you've heard on the podcast are from listeners that have decided that they wanted to take action, and taking the first step of having a conversation with our team to try and figure out how we can help. And if you want to implement what you have heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then I would invite you to do the same, let's figure out how we can help support you. So here's what I would suggest, just open your phone right now and go to your email app, and I'm going to give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com just send me an email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll make sure you get to the right person on our team, and you can have a conversation with us. We'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and your situation. So open up right now and drop me an email, put 'Conversation' in the subject line; scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:24

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 31:24

If you're thinking about career change, if this has been on your mind at all, to me, that means there's a part of you, probably your gut, your intuition, that's trying desperately to get your attention.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:43

I was recently in Charleston, South Carolina, and the tour guide was stopping us every few minutes to let us know a fun fact. But our facts actually weren't all that fun. They were facts, but they were not that exciting. However, I want to tell you a fun fact. But I also want to preface it saying it's science related. So you know, stick with me here. Did you know that scientists call the stomach the second brain? You may have heard that before. There's actually a network of 100 million neurons lining your entire digestive tract. That means that your brain is constantly working in tandem with your gut. Everyone knows what it feels like to have a pit in your stomach as you weigh a decision. That's the gut talking loud and clear. So when it comes to your career, and you feel like something is wrong, that's actually a wonderful indicator for you to stop, reevaluate, and choose a different direction.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:40

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Travis Moore 00:02

I said, "you know what, I'm gonna wait tomorrow if I still feel the same way. And I'm still as fervently, you know, opposed to working here as I am at this moment, I'm going to quit." And I woke up the next day, and I still felt very fervently against working there. And I was like, "Well, I guess I'm gonna resign."

Introduction 00:21

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:45

Do you remember those quizzes they had a steak in middle school, or maybe for you early high school that matched us with our career path that we should probably be on forever? My results said, I should be an architect, or a dentist, or I can't even remember what else doesn't matter, right? But life would be a lot easier if we just took those results, and that was the exact career that would fulfill us for the rest of our lives. But unfortunately, that's not how it works. And the journey to figuring out our calling can take a lot longer than we expect. And it leaves us feeling pretty lost at times. If you're in one of those spots, where you're feeling lost in your career, or like you don't know what the next right step is, this episode is for you.

Travis Moore 01:35

You know, it was like the thing that I thought that I wanted, and it wasn't. It was terrible. And it was a bad experience. And it was something that I definitely didn't want. And I was defeated. I felt small. I felt inadequate. I had lost all of my confidence. And I needed to rebuild.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:56

That's Travis Moore. Travis had been all over the map working in healthcare, but still felt like he was called to do more and kept getting pretty bored in every role he held. He is a registered nurse, board certified healthcare leader and holds a doctorate in nursing and health innovation. Yet he still felt like he was lacking his "why", and thought that if he could just figure out that one thing, then he would finally feel like he'd reached his career goal. Spoiler alert. These days, Travis finally feels at peace with where his career is. But it's not because he found that one single thing that he's going to do for the rest of his entire life. He did land a really awesome opportunity. But we're gonna get to that. Pay attention to how Travis got to the core of what he truly wanted out of life and overcame his limiting beliefs. Here's Travis talking about where his healthcare career originated.

Travis Moore 02:44

I grew up in a pretty rural town in central Virginia on the Blue Ridge Parkway. And then I became an EMT when I was 16. And right at high school, I got a job in the emergency department working as an EMT as an ED Tech. And that's kind of like how it all my career started really.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:01

Interesting. So that's where your career started if we go way back. Then what happened from there? What was the next step?

Travis Moore 03:09

Yeah, so after I became an EMT, and my first job was working in the emergency department, I wanted to be a paramedic. That was the only thing I ever wanted to do when I was, like, in high school. So I became a professional firefighter paramedic for a while and really felt this like, I don't know, like this sense that I wanted to do more than I felt like, I was… I had gotten really good at what I was doing. And I wanted to expand my horizons, think a little bit further outside of the box and go a little bit further upstream in healthcare. So I looked at nursing opportunities, because there were transition programs to transition from a paramedic to an RN in a shorter amount of time. And it was a defining moment that really has established the foundation for, like, the rest of my career, which is deeply founded in being a nurse right now.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:48

Clearly, there has been so much that has happened since that point in time. That's a really fun start. What led you down the road of deciding that healthcare was no longer for you? Something happened along the way. What happened in between there and now?

Travis Moore 04:07

There's really not a single defining moment. It's an evolution. It's a progress. It's a journey. And I got into, eventually became a nurse worked in the emergency department, worked in a couple intensive cares and consistently felt like I had gotten good at the skills that I would get out of being a nurse and I really enjoyed, loved taking care of patients. But I felt like I was in a box and that I was doing the same thing over and over every day. So it caused me to kind of continue to move upstream. And so I took a job as a Director of Nursing at a home care company. And that was a really defining career move for me because it really... it was my first taste in entrepreneurship and getting into a business. And we had like 400% growth in the first two years being with the company, acquired two more agencies rolled out a bunch of service lines, and I really enjoyed that. But again, I hit that ceiling where I was like, "I'm ready for more." And I really want to diversify my experience and how I can execute on things. And so then I went and became a management consultant. And that was probably the first or the farthest away from health care, like, actual patient care that I've ever been. And I was bringing this wealth of experience and knowledge and background in the healthcare world and this education. And I'm trying to figure out how I can use this in like a meaningful way to be able to drive sustainable changes in health systems. And I was quickly bogged down by the business of healthcare, and the business of consulting and really didn't feel like I was able to deliver the kind of impacts that I wanted to make and didn't feel like I was able to had the spaces of autonomy that I'd really was used to in that startup world, in this new consulting role. And I had a really hard time communicating with my superiors the vision that I had, and the strategic thought behind some of the decisions that we were making. And at the end of the day, the work that we were doing was so much higher level and not closer to the problem where I really thrived in being and it really left me super, super, super frustrated.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:10

So when you say impact, is that what you're referring to that it wasn't close enough to the problem to really feel that connection in the way that you want it to? Tell me about that.

Travis Moore 06:21

I think, yeah. I think that is a part of it. I think that moreover, I really wasn't able to align my company's incentives with my incentives, or the things that I feel like we're going to be value drivers in our health system. And a lot about being a business consultant is about providing a perspective. And that is sometimes just a perspective, and it doesn't matter if it's a good perspective or not. It's a perspective, they're paying for something. And that didn't drive with me. And I did not want to provide perspectives, because based on a timeline, if I didn't feel like we had enough information or had enough insight to be able to truly give a perspective, and that seemed to take a backseat and a lot of the conversations that I had during my time in that world. And it was really frustrating not to be able to dive deep enough into these problems to really thoroughly understand them to then be able to provide the recommendation. And it seems like we started with recommendations, and they would figure out how to back into the solution later, which was incongruent to the way that I think about things and that I think, on a very personal level, think things should be done. And trying to reconcile that was like, just an arduous challenge that I was not successful doing. And I was not able to really find alignment between my value set and my value structure, and my personal mission, vision and values to with what the company was doing on a day to day practice. And it was extremely frustrating. And to be completely transparent, it was like the first time in my life that I had things like the Sunday scaries and that I had no freaking clue what I felt like my job was or how I could deliver effectively and be able to prove my value. I have all this education, all this experience, and I can't figure out how to use it in this context. Because every time I tried to use it, I'm told, "No, that's wrong." Or "No, that's not what we're looking for. We need something more." And it was like I equivocate to playing battleship with, like, no feedback. And it's like, "A seven." "No, that sucked." "Okay, great." "How about B five?" You just throwing stuff out to the point where you just throwing stuff out that you don't even know, you don't have any strategy behind the mortgage just like, well, I use strategy, and it didn't get me anywhere, then it just this again, not something that I aligned with, because I feel like the product I was delivering was not useful, and it wasn't meaningful. And ultimately, I could see that in a lot of the conversations that I had with clients. And really the perception that business consultants get when you walk into, especially health care organizations, and they're just like, eyes roll, immediately. And I completely felt that and I was like, "I don't want to be one of those guys. Like I don't wanna be part of the problem. I want to fix the problem." And so it was a tough time for me personally. And it was also, to give it some context, this is also during the pandemic. So I got offered this job the week that the world locked down. And so I didn't have the normal onboarding, I was working completely remote. I had all of my previous jobs have been working in person surrounded with people, interacting with people, I am an extremely extroverted person, they get a lot of my energy from that interaction. And then moving from that kind of world into a world where I don't feel successful, I don't feel heard, I don't have that energy, the world is on lockdown, so I can't even do like the normal things that I would do outside of my job. And I'm working from home for the first time in my career. And I was just like, completely done after working there for about a year and a half. And I was on antidepressants for the first time in my life. I was in therapy. And I was just like, "this is just not good." And even when I had these conversations with my doctor about getting on like antidepressants, she was like, "Do you feel like your job might have anything to do with it?" And I'm like, "I don't know. It's a job I've got to learn. And these are things that I don't know and it's a new environment." And I just got to continue to trudge through and all eventually figure it out to now looking back, where I was like, absolutely, that had a lot to do with it. Because I think most people, and especially nurses, really resonate with the work that they do. And it's part of like your calling, or part of who you are. And it's an outward expression of what you do and who you are as a person and your value to the world. And when you're not able to express that, and you don't feel like the value you're delivering is like, meaningful or what you want to do, it really breaks into who you are as a person, and especially in this environment and the pandemic, where you ain't got nothing else going on, because you can't do anything else, like work, and then maybe some zoom sessions with your friends to try to keep your quote unquote, social connections to the world, it was just super, super hard.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:45

That is hard in so many different ways. And I'm also curious, what took place between, where you're having that conversation with your doctor, and you're like, "Well, I don't know if my job has anything to do with it. Or I'm not really sure. Maybe... I don't." to the point where you learned. What caused you to begin to recognize and then begin to do something about it? What took place?

Travis Moore 11:12

So I think it was something that I thought I was like, sure, for sure my job has something to do with this. But is this a reason, like, am I just going to quit because it's hard? And that was the bigger piece for me to try to come to terms with. And I recently read a book that was called 'The Dip' by Seth Godin. And that really exemplified where I was at in that job. "Okay, do I need to quit and protect myself? Or do I need to go through the dip because of what's potentially on the other side?" And that was like the question that I asked myself every single day. And I started to reach out to people because it's like, okay, I'm struggling, I need some movement. So I started to reach out to the resources and started to establish additional resources to really help me figure out like, "Do I stay? Or do I go?" Like, that's the question at this point. What's the value that I'm going to get if I stay past this dip? Or what part of me am I losing by staying through this? And how is that gonna ultimately impact my trajectory in 10, 15., 30 years from now? And I sort of started reaching out to people inside the company that I knew I had been assigned a mentor, and I had developed relationships with people that understood the value of my perspective, and was going to them and be like, "This is the struggle I'm having." A lot of people related with me and the challenges that I was having at that time. And I built some really strong relationships that I still have to this day, and then going outside of the company and talking to people that are competitors that have similar roles and asking them, are they feeling the same way, and a lot of them did. What are things that I can focus on to make this a better experience for me or to really capitalize on my time here, so that this is not just like a black hole in my life where it was just like, oh, that sucked. I don't want to go back there. But to really try to turn this into what's the value, maybe it's not a positive experience, maybe I'm not going to be here for long, what's the value that I'm going to be able to take away from this experience and seeing if I can, in fact, turn this around. And if I can stay through the dip. And that's really part of that whole process is when I started... when I reached out to HTYC. And initially started coaching with you guys was really out of that despair, desperation. I've got to figure this out. Because, like, this is supposed to be like the best experience in my life and is going to be like a big builder and is going to be a game changer for the trajectory of my career, and it sucks. So I've got to figure out how I'm going to either work through this or figure out what the heck I want to do with my life. And so that's... I originally started listening to your podcasts, and that's what kind of got me hooked and listening to some of the other people that have had similar experiences and what they had done to mitigate their challenges and their transitions out of one career to the next. And I wasn't really sure that I wanted to leave, like, I love being a nurse. And I wasn't really sure that I wanted to leave nursing or leave healthcare. But I knew that I didn't want to be a bedside nurse. And I didn't want to be any one of the traditional nurse leaders or managers or directors. I remember very distinctly when I was in grad school, it was my second semester, and I did an internship. Going into the program, I was like, "I'm going to be a CEO of a hospital, or I'm going to be a CNO, chief nursing officer, at least" that's where my ambitions are. And I got into the program in my second semester, and I did a shadowing experience with the chief nursing officer and was like, "oh my god, your job sucks. I would never do this. This is terrible. I don't want to do this at all. This is like what I do at times 1000. And this is not the kind of position that I want to do with my life." And so I remember after that experience going to my advisor and being like, "This is... I think I'm going to change into the nurse practitioner program because this is not... I thought I wanted to be a CNO or CEO and I've seen that now and no thanks." And I remember she sat back and she's like, "Well, my goodness, that's amazing." She was like, "It sounds like grad school has already paid off for you." And I was like, that's not the response I was expecting. And she's like, "Well think about it." She was like, "Imagine, you had spent your career a couple more years as a manager, a couple of years as a director, a couple more yours as the vice president, and then finally you got into this role 25 years down the line. And that's when you realize that you didn't want it." You know, she was like, "So you've saved maybe 20 years of your life and two semesters of grad school", she's like, "It's a pretty awesome ROI, if you think about it." And I was just like, blown away by that and had to sit back and chew on that and was like, "Okay. Alright, maybe you're right. Maybe I do need to continue to think more broadly on what it means to be a leader and what it means to be an innovator and how I can use my background and my experience to really create the kind of impact that I want to create in the world." And so all of these things coming together, that's when I originally reached out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:38

As you got to the point where it's like, "Okay, I know that I need to do something about this." You started taking a number of steps, you were reaching out to people inside-outside your company, you started working with us, you have all of these different areas to create traction, we'll call them. What was the hardest part for you in going through and identifying, "hey, do I want to stay? Do I want to go? What does an amazing next step look like?" What was the hardest part for you in making this type of career change?

Travis Moore 16:08

I think the unknown of, what am I giving up and trying to understand what am I giving up if I leave? And then thinking about that on the other foot of, what am I giving up if I stay? And trying to forecast what you think the value of what you're doing is into your future, because I have done a lot of hard things in my life, I completed nursing school in one year, and I didn't die during that. I can do anything, is what I tell myself. And I'm willing to put in the work and the stress and the effort to get towards a goal. But I also have to know that that goal exists and that this is actually driving towards that. And it's going to be a value to me. And I'm going to have ROI for this sweat equity that I'm putting into this. And so that was the framework in which I was approaching this decision. But I had no idea, like, what is the value of staying here for three years, five years versus one year? What am I actually going to learn and I had to break it down into little tangible things of, like, "alright, I can get better at facilitating communication or conversation. I can get better at telling a story to a client. I can get better at utilizing data to support my communication." Those are little specific things that I was, like, that's what I'm going to focus on and try to get out of this experience. And at the end of the day, ultimately, I remember I had my first conversation with my first coach at HTYC. And I essentially was like, "Hi, I'm Travis. I need to quit my job. And I need someone to tell me that it's okay." Was I think basically what I was trying to get. And I was like, I could... I was like just, like, dying to get the conversation started, because I wanted someone to tell me, "Yeah, it's okay, you can quit. It's gonna be fine. We'll find you something better." And that wasn't the response that I got from the first coach. And it really, it was good, because it then pushed it back on me. And it was like, nobody's going to make this decision for you. Which is ultimately what I was, I think I was aiming for with someone to tell me "yes, it's okay, you can make this decision, and we support you and you're making the right decision." And I needed to come to that decision to myself, and I needed to be able to make the determination, like "Yeah, no, this sucks. And you're not getting out of it, what you want to get out of it. And furthermore, it's really deteriorating your mental health, which is the foundation for everything else that you do in your career, and in your personal life." So ultimately, after that original conversation, I did resign from my job. And I had no idea, I did not... I just woke up that day and was like, "Yeah, I can't do this anymore. This is not working." I tried many different teams, I tried many different clients. And that's what I kept saying to myself, it's like, "Oh, maybe it's the team, maybe it's the leader I'm working with, maybe it's a client I'm working with." And ultimately, I changed again, and I was like, "This is the exact same." And my last project was like, really in my wheelhouse. And I still felt terrible. And so I was like, "It's time to go." And I remember thinking to myself, like, "Okay, well, I've been toying with this decision for like, I don't know, six months to leave. So this is not like a new and I'm not being reactive." And I know that looking at my career history, like I think the longest job I've ever had to date is two years. So like, I know, I have a propensity to like leave positions, but I really, I said, "You know what, I'm gonna wait and tomorrow if I still feel the same way, and I'm still as fervently, you know, opposed to working here as I am in this moment, I'm going to quit." And I woke up the next day, and I still felt very fervently against working there. And I was like, "Well, I guess I'm gonna resign." I had no idea what I was going to do, what my next job was, I knew that I was a nurse, and that I could always fall back on that, I could always go back to caring for patients at the bedside. And maybe that's what I needed to do. And I started looking at, like, travel nurse positions and per diem positions again, and of course, I had been away from the bedside for a little too long for most places to be like, oh, yeah, come on back. So that was a bigger challenge than I thought but then someone had connected me with a leadership and interim leadership opportunity out in California and I interviewed for that, and it went well, and so that's ultimately what I took. But I didn't take the job until like, I think I got it... I accepted the job on my last day at my previous company. So I had like a solid two weeks where I was like, "Man, I know I'm gonna do it. But anything is better than this." So I ended up taking that position. And it was such a great opportunity for me, because it was definitely... It was in a leadership position working directly with the team, and it was building a new program. And it was that amazing opportunity for me to be able to come in, work with a team, build rapport, build a team up, build a system and a process and implement it. And I got very positive feedback, it was very well received by the organization and really needed that opportunity to kind of, like, build myself back up and kind of dust myself off and be like, "yeah, no, you're worth it. You're an OK guy. You have some things to offer."

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:57

Let me ask you about that, though, and just insert a comment here. I cannot tell you the number of conversations, probably, over 1000 at this point of conversations that I've had with people that we've worked with where they have talked to me about the impacts of staying in the situation, like you did, that had you questioning everything. And then I just heard you say I really needed that experience in that contract role, or you call it a temporary role, to be able to build yourself back up. And so I have two questions about that. One, do you feel like it needed to happen the way that it did for you? The length of time you've been thinking about it for six months. Or do you feel like looking back there was an opportunity to prevent that? Or do you feel like that experience actually allowed you to come out better off than if it hadn't happened? Tell me just a little bit about how you're thinking about that, first of all.

Travis Moore 21:52

Yeah. So I do not regret my decisions. And I do not regret going and working there. And I do not regret the opportunity, the time. I mean, I think that's just my general framework in approaching life, like, you're in each moment of your life for a specific reason and to learn something, and you are the only person in the world that has your unique set of experiences, which is what makes you who you are, and provides the value that you can provide to this world. And if you don't have those really challenging and really hard times in your life, you're never going to be able to hit the mark that you could make. And looking back in the context of like, knowing what I know now, could I ever approach that differently? And the answer, I think, is no. I think that if I had known now what I knew then, I would have never done it. And then who knows what I had to learn during that time of my life, that gives me the ability to do what I'm doing right now and even more exciting what I'm going to do in the future, and allowed me to have connections. And just having that kind of experience on your resume opens a lot of doors. And between those experiences and just like the resume fodder, who knows how that impacts my trajectory in the future. So I think that, you know, as with most hard things in life, if you knew they were going to be hard, you might not start them. So it's best you don't know so that you work through them, instead of dancing around it. So I don't think that I would have changed anything. But looking back, I have a colleague that's going through a similar situation right now. And she and I talk frequently. And so I've had an opportunity to really reflect back on this and like, "what could I have done different? What advice can I give her that would have made her situation different than mine? What things can I tell her to do to try?" And I keep coming up with, like, "I don't know what to tell you. This was my experience. This is what I did. This is what I tried, maybe you should try it and see if you have a different outcome." But it is... at the end of the day, it is all part of making me who I am. And giving me the perspective that I have and the experiences that I have, I think it's healthy honestly to have bad experiences. Because if you don't have the bad experiences, your perspective, you'll never be able to resonate or connect with or relate to people that have had really bad experiences. And it gives you just like this appreciation and this better ability to empathize with people that are going through tough times, and is humanizing. And I think that especially in the world that we live in, humanizing things is important and having shared experiences and even if they're crappy shared experiences, being able to connect with those people that are going through stuff like that, or have been through stuff like that and and give perspective or advice, and most of the time I'm trying not to be a silver liner and just be like "yep, it sucks and I'm here" and that's it to kind of like wade through all the malarkey with people. So I think it gives you an invaluable lens and a valuable experience and gives you an ability in the future to do things just you don't necessarily see how they're connected, and may never see how they're connected.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:57

That's one of my favorite things about the work that we get to do with people is we get to, in some ways, come in and help people put together all of those sets of experience, the great stuff, the bad stuff, but all experiences and tying it together in a really useful way to proceed forward. And that's one of my favorite things, like, that's one of the reasons why I love this type of work for what we're talking about right now. Also, on the flip side, to comment about something else that you mentioned, in many ways, you have to go through these bad experiences. We get many, many emails and questions about like, "Hey, have you ever considered going into high schools or things like that?" And while I think there's a ton of value in helping change the mindsets around what work is and what work can be in high schools, ultimately, I think that the work that I love to do personally, and the impact that we have to make it happen to your career, I think a lot of people have to go through some bad times in order to really leverage those experiences fully for the future of their life. And I think that's part of what you're getting at. So I fully appreciate that. And then I'm also curious about what don't work really well to be able to make that transition for you.

Travis Moore 26:15

So when I first started working with Liz, there was this definite, like, there was a brokenness to be completely honest. I didn't really know what I wanted to do with my life. I had gotten into this new career that I was like, "This is it. I'm making great money. I've got all this opportunity. I get connected with all these high level people." It was like the thing that I thought that I wanted. And it wasn't. And it was terrible. And it was a bad experience. And it was something that I definitely didn't want. And I was defeated. I felt small. I felt inadequate. I had lost all of my confidence. And I needed to rebuild, essentially, which is why I left the organization and did something that I felt was in my wheelhouse to kind of rebuild myself, rebuild my confidence. But at the same time, I also had this new framework of thinking and was like, "Alright, I've got it. I'm gonna project manage myself. And I need to set up specific milestones or I need specific milestones so that I can get to where I'm going. So what I want out of coaching is, I want to figure out where my Northstar is, and I want a 15 step plan on how to get there." And that's kind of like how I entered this. It was very operational, very tactical, and was just like, I'll just get over it, the kind of like, emotional aspects of making this transition and leaving this specific workforce and enjoying another, figuring out what the heck I want to do with my life. And I feel like working with Liz, like, really, she... the biggest value she gave to me was she gave me space. And she let me heal. And she let me explore and think and she gave me guardrails, because I am the... one of the funny things that we would talk about as she gave me the analogy of drilling wells, and she was like, "you're all over your front yard drilling wells," she was like, 'but if you don't continue to dig, you're never gonna find water." And just like I was all over this place, because I was acting really out of fear and out of insecurity, it was like, "I want to do this. No, I want to do that. No one thinks about this." And I think the ideas ranged from like, I want to start my own coaching consulting firm, which I did to, like, I'm gonna buy a hotel and run that, or I'm going to join my dad's business, which I also actually did. This was just like a couple of ideas came out every single time. And she was like, "Whoa, let's back up, pump the brakes a bit. And talk about why we want to do these things, or maybe focus on one thing and go deep before we come back up and go into something else." So she provided that safe space for me to be able to do that in a very non judgmental, very loving, supportive way of helping direct my thoughts, and helped me figure out what it is that I... what direction I wanted to go. Not even like the question was never answered and still hasn't answered of what I want to be when I grow up. It's a journey on where I'm supposed to be right now. But it was realizing that and leaning into the journey, and leaning into, this is... I don't know what step 10 is, but I can see the next step. And that's the step that I have to take right now.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:13

That's awesome. Okay, so after all of this wonderful work to define what you wanted– all of the drilling wells, and exploring and trying to find the right well, or a combination of wells, even. Tell me a little bit about where you're currently at, that is the right space for you right now.

Travis Moore 29:34

So as I'm making this transition, I launched my own business and we're going through multiple iterations of that, I'm trying to figure out that one of the other deficits that I saw is that I really needed to learn more about running a small business and my dad was running a small business, and he was hitting some growth walls. And so I found an opportunity to join his organization as a co-owner of a welding and fabrication company in Central Washington. And I joined that really to start to build those little leadership skills, things like accounting and payroll and the other mechanics that I had not done in my leadership background that were more entrepreneurial, and really learning the business of running a business. And then I don't know, fate comes knocking on my door and somebody in my network reaches out to me, he's like, "Hey, I have the perfect job for you. Will you consider taking this position?" And I'm like, "Oh, thank you. Not really interested. I'm kind of like focused in this area of my life and growing my businesses." Now mind you, I had like, no, like investors or capital to speak of, I was just had like, a prayer and a good attitude that it was just all going to work out. And that somehow I was going to be able to fund my lifestyle this way. And so they're like, "Would you just have a conversation?" And so I had a series of conversations with different leaders for this position. And the position is to lead the health care category for indeed.com, which is a large jobs board, and the leader in healthcare job seekers, the largest provider of healthcare job seekers in the US market. And so they were looking for someone who had experience both in business consulting, as well as operational leadership, and was also had a clinical background. So I had been in the space of the people that were actually looking for these jobs, the job seekers, and also the other side of the market, the two sided market is the working with employers and being the hiring manager. So they were looking for someone who had this, like, experience on both sides of the market, as well as some consulting background. And because of my background, I was like a unicorn for that position and fit really well. And so I had some really good conversations with the hiring team about what I wanted to do and what I was experienced in and what the value that I could bring was and what I was not willing to do, very aggressively. And they were like, "Yes, that's great. We love it." Every single step of the way. At one point, the hiring manager was like, "Hey, you know what? Why don't you take a look at the job description and just like, cross out anything you're not comfortable with? And then send it back to me." And I was just like, blown away by this opportunity that I was being pursued so hard, because of my experience, and how everything in my life had kind of led up to this point of, "Wow, I am being aggressively pursued for this position that I really feel like I can make a difference in and really feel like I could drive an impact. And I had to weigh that against, but I'm running my own businesses. This is my world, right? I've got these two businesses, and I'm trying to get off the ground and grow. And that's what I want to do with my life." So it was really hard, it felt like I almost had to pick one or the other. Because I knew if I took this job, I wouldn't have as much time to devote to my businesses. And I don't want them to die off. But I also saw this huge opportunity to work with this amazing company to really change the way that we hire healthcare workers in the United States and potentially globally. And I felt that because of the way the process happened, because of the way the interviews happened, because of the way that I was kind of brought into this opportunity, that it really aligned with my own personal value set, and how I would want things to happen. And it was like things don't just line up like this without like it being meant to be. And so I ultimately decided to take the position with indeed to help influence the way that we kind of market for job seekers in our current climate, which is ever changing, especially after the pandemic. And even still, after joining, it's getting into the organization being the first of my kind. I feel like I'm like, on Game of Thrones– Travis Moore, first on the... And trying to figure out what is my space in this world? Where do I fit in with people that don't have similar backgrounds, and I'm the first nurse that the organization is hired to help lead some of these programs, and now the challenge is figuring out how do I meaningfully insert myself? What is the value that I add? How can I add that, and build these relationships to be able for me to actually execute on some of the ideas and opportunities that I've been able to see? And that's been fun and exciting and also ambiguous in a lot of places, opportunity to kind of find my way in this kind of new world.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:59

I think that is something that's really fun about that and listening to it is that had you not done some of the other work to be declarative in what you wanted and needed, then you either would have completely passed on the opportunity. Or let's say that you had even taken it and allowed other people to convince you to just take it because they thought it was perfect for you, then it would have been very, very different than "Hey, go and pick out what you want." Essentially like, choose your own situation, choose your own career, choose your own job opportunity. And so kudos to you.

Travis Moore 34:35

Thanks. It was, you know, you're exactly right. And I think that all the experience if I had not gone through the things that I had been through and had that opportunity, had that experience, really to even get this job, and then had the experience with working through what I wanted in my career and my life, and being able to reconcile that against taking this job or not like it gave me so much clarity and direction. And knowing that I made a very intentional choice, and not just like, I happen to get this or I happen to stumble into this opportunity, it was a very clear choice. And then when it gets challenging, it's like, "No. I chose this. I wanted this. I thought about this. I know how this fits into my life. And this is absolutely what I'm going to do. So let's just put those thoughts to bed and continue to do the work, continue to show up in this job and deliver the impact that I'm meant to deliver here." And then I get excited around, what is that? The journey and the excitement of discovery and figuring out what it is that I'm going to do, and what's the impact that I'm going to make, and how can I change somebody's life today is kind of a motivating thing that really inspires me. And when I'm having these days, where I'm like, "Oh my God, I don't want to show up. I don't want to get up. I don't want to be involved." It gives you this new breath of fresh air and a little wind under your wings as it were to be able to get up and show up. So I think that my biggest advice is to show up for yourself, know that you're worth it and know that your value in the world is important. And we need you to authentically show up as yourself in order to change the world.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:06

Hey, something I don't want to let you know, the seemingly impossible career change stories that you hear on the podcast are actually from people just like you who are listening to this podcast, and decided to take action and have a conversation with our team. If you want to implement what you heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just take your phone right now, open it up, go to your email app, and type me an email– Scott@happentoyourcareer.com just put a 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team and you can have a conversation with us. We'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and support you in your situation. So open that up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line to Scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Alyssa Barlow 37:08

I feel like it is really hard to write big goals and goals that are different when you're sitting in your house that you sit in every evening, or you spend every weekend there or you're in your office that you work in every day.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:23

Over the past few years, we've had one episode that got so much positive feedback. So back this year by popular demand is another one of those exact same episodes where I bring on my wife, Alyssa, and we discuss our goals from the previous year– what worked, what didn't work, and our goals for the next year. Now, I have very much grown to look forward to these meetings and these episodes and the goal setting process in general. But that wasn't always the case. Our goal setting initially started from a place of fear. Fear that we weren't going to be able to afford the life that we wanted and fear that really pushed us to get very intentional and set some pretty big goals. And once we started hitting those goals, I realized, "hey, this actually works and it can be pretty fun." So now I get excited to have these yearly chats and go through this yearly process with Alyssa. And this year we sat down to have that conversation. We once, again, decided to let you be a part of it. My hope in doing this is that you can see what really goes into our annual planning, specifically the parts that went well and what we want to do differently and then use some of our tactics to make your 2023 year– the year that you hit some huge goals. Some, maybe, that you thought were impossible.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:46

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Rebecca Maddox 00:01

I remember people saying, "Oh man, but you've got the dream." And it kind of raises a red flag as people say, "you have the dreamy thinking out there." There's lots of truth to that. But something feels off right now, at least for what I think I'm looking for.

Introduction 00:22

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:47

One unexpected obstacle that you might have to overcome when making a career change is dealing with reactions from the people closest to you. Okay, surprisingly, these reactions are not always positive and encouraging. Your friends and family likely want what is best for you. And they may not think that a career change is a smart move. So how do you navigate these conversations with the people closest to you and get them on board to support you as you make this big life change?

Rebecca Maddox 01:17

Know who's supporting you. Surround yourself with those people. Check in with those people. You need support and if you need their support to help you accomplish your dream, or to move forward or to do anything challenging, whether that's lose five pounds or move across country, just have those people check in with this people every so often to know that you're supported.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:37

That's Rebecca Maddox. Rebecca was a lawyer working in a political arena in Washington DC when she decided she needed to change for many reasons. One of those included health problems that were surfacing from the stress of her... when it came time to let her support system know she was working on making a career change, she was met with some surprising reactions, which ranged from nervously happy for her to angry and argumentative. I want you to listen to how Rebecca navigated these conversations, because she gives an almost exact script for what to say to your support system when you're making a career change. Here's Rebecca, taking us back to when her law journey began.

Rebecca Maddox 02:19

I decided to go to law school, back I think it was my junior year of college. No one else in my family had gone to law school and before all of it, I'd actually been thinking, “Oh, I wanna go to med school.” And then I took calculus and chemistry at the same time, freshman year, and there's nothing quite like that to, like, really make you reconsider your priorities in life. “I don't know if this is right for me.” So I reconsidered everything. I went on a longer journey with taking environmental science courses, learning more about environmental policy, going into women and gender classes and policy. I took a class, I think on feminist jurisprudence. And that opened my eyes the idea of “Ha! I find this fascinating. What if the law is actually something I wanna do?” And I remember telling my parents, "I wanted to go to law school" and they said, “Really? Sure? Are you sure?” And I took the LSAT. I did an internship, where an attorney was representing the community group in front of a zoning commission. I thought, "This is just incredible." So I ended up going to law school because I like the idea of how you could use advocacy in arguments to, like, build a foundation to achieve something for someone. Because I think ultimately at the end of the day, I wanted to help people. And that's what moves me towards law school. I ended up going to law school at the University of Maryland. And after I went to school there, I realized I've never been involved in politics. I guess that's forwarding. I realized, I've had experience, undergrad with some environmental sort of organizing stuff back in the day. I now have experience in law, but I've never looked at politics, which feels like another factor, and something that's close to me now that I'm in Maryland, and DC is not very far away. What if, like, I don't have kids, I don't have a house. What if that's something worth trying? And I ended up connecting with an office in DC. And then I did that for a couple of years.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:28

Who were the types of people that you sought out to try and find out, "Hey, what do you mean this politics? Like, what's all this meaning?" Who were those types of people or who were those folks in your life?

Rebecca Maddox 04:40

Oh, yeah, that's a great question. Because coming from my family– my family is filled, my extended family, my immediate family, it's filled with teachers and doctors, no one knew anything much about connecting in with politics. And I remember a friend at school was involved more with politics and there was an intern coordinator who handled more political internships for the school. And she said, “you should go talk to her.” And I said, “okay.” And I think my, in general, my best… the way I found most of my internships or experiences while in school was definitely through teachers. Teachers saying, “hey, you’re… you should be connecting into extra shifts. Hey, you should be connecting into these things.” They kind of acted as mentors to shepherd me through. And getting into politics, in general, is just... it's a tough game. I mean, everyone's coming in trying to prove the self worth. And it's a lot of networking and it's a lot of meet people for coffee and trying to figure out you have a connection to their state, to their political beliefs, to their office, to someone in their office. It kind of strips the greenness off a little bit.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:58

Off of you very quickly.

Rebecca Maddox 05:59

Exactly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:00

No longer green almost immediately as you move into that. You and I had a conversation maybe, I don't know, seven, eight months ago, or something, which was the first time you and I had met after you found HTYC. And at that point in time, you were less excited, shall I say, about being in DC and being involved in the political arena. Is that fair to say?

Rebecca Maddox 06:26

Yeah, that's fair to say. I would say during my time there it was... it is really exciting. And it's really interesting because you're dealing with some very big issues and everything saying yes, changing all the time. And you work with some very motivated, very intelligent people, and some very diplomatic and great people to work with. But the same time, it's sometimes working at 50,000 feet, feeling like you're kind of hovering above ground. You start, I think after a while starting to wonder about my impact and connecting with people and wondering, is this the best use of my skills? And I remember people saying, "oh, man, but you've got the dream." And it kind of raises a red flag. If people say, "you have the dreamy thinking out there." there's a lot of truth to that. But something feels off right now, at least for what I think I'm looking for. And I think in that moment, I started looking for a career coach, because when you're in a position, especially that you've worked really hard to get, they've put in a lot of time, a lot of years and you're thinking, “okay, right, this feels right. It feels like I'm gaining experience and gaining some, a little bit of, you know, have a good reputation here. I've got something going.” It's hard to talk to other people. It's hard to know who to talk to, to say, "Hey, I'm wondering if there's something else out there for me." Or to say, hey, even to your family, to your loved ones say, "Hey, I'm not sure if this will be my forever fit. Or maybe this is the best fit for me in terms of like, my goals or what I'm thinking right now." Because everybody has their own bias. But if your family supported you and getting used to this position, they want to see you happy but they also are wondering, "why would you leave?" So it kind of... It's the dream. And granted, there were a lot of opportunities, great opportunities, great people to work with, again, it's just kind of thinking "Okay. So but for me and my skills, and what I'm thinking that's for my own personal move, what are my options? How should I be thinking about this?" I think having a little bit of an outside perspective there of someone who can call you out, and maybe when you're not taking accountability for everything in your sphere. I mean, he's the one who can point things out or help you navigate it. I think that's what I was looking for.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:45

Interesting. So I'm curious, just diving back for a half a second, because it sounds like you were having fun with some areas of it, and as you got in there, there was different levels of excitement and things that totally jived with what you were interested in, at least at the time. What really started you down the path of either realizing that it had changed, or that you wanted something different? What happened in between there that caused you to have a difference of opinion from when you went down and when you were having fun with it initially?

Rebecca Maddox 09:20

I started thinking about, I think I started feeling a little disconnected. Sometimes we would start working on an issue and then something else would become more politically important to be working on or focusing on. So jumping around, we have a lot of loose, there were loose ends and I thought, "okay, what am I accomplishing here?" And I started feeling a little bit of that disconnect. And then also there's this sort of, there's a thoroughness impact but also the depth of the issue where when you're working on like a higher level on the issues, you don't want to dive too deep into the weeds, but you also need to create something. So I became a very versatile generalist, looking at different issues across a spectrum, but it was diving into, I think when you're running on an inch deep mile wide, you know, some people thrive in that environment. They see the bigger forces, and they enjoy just kind of staying a little bit in the substance, but mostly on the bigger forces and political forces, and again, navigating that. But for me, I found that this is all very exciting, I would love to have something like it to dive more into, be more of an expert on sinking my teeth into more. So I started reconsidering my impact, and as well as my, ultimately, how did I want my ideal office? How, at least, how I get my rewards at work? What makes sense? Is it like having a big policy issue work? Or is it more of a one on one relationship with a client, like that kind of work? And I thought, "Actually, it's the client." I just started little piece by piece, picking things off. And sometimes too, when you're in that environment, you know that something's not working, but you're not quite sure what. And it's sometimes can be hard to hear your voice in that space. And I think I was going to on top of all of this, my heart was also somewhere else, like my significant other, he was out on the campaign trail. And at that point in time, I thought, "Okay, how are we going to get ourselves on the same place? We've been doing long distance for a long time" So there was a little bit of that coming... there was that coming into play as well, or that, okay, I'm trying to hold it all together but something gonna get eventually. What makes sense for me?

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:41

That's super interesting on a variety of levels, partially because you began to recognize that being an overall generalist and not getting to go deep with something that you were missing quite a bit. And then at the same time, you had some needs and wants life changes, like, how are we going to stop doing this long distance relationship? And so you had a couple of things pulling in different areas and, for one, super cool that you recognize the need for change, because I think a lot of people will just keep going. Like, I mean, I encounter them all the time where people will just keep on going, rather than acting on that need or want for change. So kudos to you, first of all.

Rebecca Maddox 12:28

I mean, thanks. It's when you're in this zone, or when you're doing this, especially if you've had a lot of time and energy invested into it, and there are a lot of things, I'm not usually black and white. It's not like a voice from God comes down unless you just have lucky people, right? If you're like, "Oh yeah, there's the burning bush. Cool. I got my instruction. Let's go." For me, it was, I don't remember who told me this, or where I read this, but it's like the little things, you start feeling a little itch, and you say, "maybe... am I crazy?"And so you think, you know, everything else was going on. Let's just keep going with this or maybe it's just me, maybe like, I did that for a while or I thought, "okay, I'm not handling this correctly. I need to, you know, go running, I need to make sure I'm getting my energy out, I need to make sure I'm following up on where I've made mistakes and try not to do those again. I need to be like accountable. I need to..." you know, you try to fix all the other things. But there was a moment for me I think, I know I would say for other listeners, if there's a moment where you know something's really off, whether it's like that moment where you snap at someone you didn't realize, you didn't mean to and they went way beyond what you normally are, you think this is not where I'm supposed to be, this is something's wrong. I would say listen to that. I think my moment was, this was a long time before I made my move out of DC but at the moment, I went into the dentist's office, they did an X-ray of my molars and the nerves just look like scrambled eggs. I'm not out of my 20s and they said, "look, you are clenching your teeth so hard at night from stress, that you have messed up your nerve endings. And if you keep going like this, you're going to need root canals for all 4 teeth by the time, you're 30." And I just, it kind of made me sit down and say, something's wrong. Something's really wrong. And I kind of tried to, like, just keep work, just keep swimming, just keep swimming, right? Keep going, keep going. You can do it. Just keep focus. Everyone goes and runs into issues like this. And then eventually, something starts to get and say, "you know, maybe something is off." And I think the hard part of that, for me, was negotiating with my family and friends, not just in the workplace. I'm trying to be professional, right? You're trying to protect yourself. But then the hard part with family and friends is explaining, "Hey, I'm gonna go work. I'm interested in this idea. I would really appreciate your support. I think it's worth a shot for me to kind of look into."

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:58

How did you handle some of those conversations? Because I think that's a real thing for nearly everybody. Even if you've got a fairly supportive family, like, if you're on that end of the spectrum and have a family that understands, it's still like a big gap. And it's like, well, why or the other questions that come up. So I'm curious, how did you approach some of those conversations?

Rebecca Maddox 15:22

Right. The hard part when you're thinking of making a change in your life is that either, I've run into several reactions. People are usually nervous, and they want to be helpful– a loved ones in particular want to be helpful, but they oftentimes don't know how to approach the issue. I've had ranging issues of people saying, "Well just go do what you love. Go do what you love." And I think, well, that's kind of broad.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:54

Just go do it. Just start doing it.

Rebecca Maddox 15:57

Or I even once had someone ask me, "well, what's the one thing that you need in life?" And I had to look back and honestly, it's like, I don't know, food, clothing, shelter? Like, where are we going with this, right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:09

Water, obviously.

Rebecca Maddox 16:10

The water.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:11

Thanks for that piece of information.

Rebecca Maddox 16:13

Vote one for water. Water was popular though. So I would say I want… so in approaching that I think I had to realize that like, why I was feeling vulnerable in my search or feeling and trying to think broadly, I had to realize that other people are feeling a little thrown out of kilter, because they too are wanting good things for you, but also, you know, think of you in a certain way. So having those honest and open conversations is really important. And for people who truly didn't understand or angry, which I ran into a fair amount as well. And I think that was one thing, you know, as I was talking today that was something that came up for me because I think that was something that threw me off kilter, my job search was just the emotional impact of others. Not understanding or being frustrated and there's validity there. It's, I think, my moment of wisdom was with what, somebody is very close to me. And he said, "I think you're making a mistake. Why are you moving cross country?" And I think, number one, like they may be mad about certain things if you're making yourself vulnerable and making other people vulnerable financially. So that is one thing to put on the side backburner, so I personally had enough in savings to say, "Hey, I've saved that for this moment. I prepared for this moment, I can do this." So there was that. And then the other part, the logical support, wanting them to support me where I was, I think, I had to say, "Look, you're my friend, you're my loved one. I love you dearly. And your support means so much to me. I need to give this a try. And if it doesn't work out, I'll be okay. Things will be okay. I need... I just need for you to trust in me, in my skills, that things will be okay at this moment. And then if something else comes up, we'll just troubleshoot it from there. But here's my plan, here's where we're going. I really would appreciate your support in this." So that's how I went about it, whether it was the best move and the most comprehensive. Yeah, I'm sure other people have other pointers. But like, I think that's what helped, for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:15

What you just verbalized, I think is a great script, actually, that we found generally works, because when you're explaining why, when you're explaining why you need to make the change, and then asking specifically for support, and then even explaining that, ultimately, look, it's gonna be okay, because of these reasons, then I think that helps people move from point A to point Z in terms of how they're looking at it.

Rebecca Maddox 18:43

Right. You know, it's hard. So at second point, you have to kind of know who your main people are, who are... know who your main support are, talk to those people first, and then know to a certain degree, it will percolate through. And then know over time, things get better. People ease off, especially if as you move on, if it works out. I mean, for me as I've left, after I left DC, there are little things people have noticed, like I'm laughing more and my hair is blonde, or if I'm in the outside more and, you know, little things, people say, you know, maybe it's not so bad. I think to the idea of dropping everything, or dropping things and moving on to a different opportunity is something that's risky. And a lot of people are risk averse, they're nervous, they wouldn't have necessarily done this for themselves. So that's another... there's several hurdles of how people make their own decisions in addition to the fact that maybe they just wanted you there. Maybe they said, “you know what, you have a great career and I'm bragging about you. And maybe I just always thought this was who and what you wanted and who are you anymore." So there's a little bit of that going on too and so there's... that's kind of the untold story along with career change. My experience is how your support system works. And I would recommend a good piece of advice that was given to me that I would recommend to others is, "know who's supporting you, surround yourself with those people, check in with those people. If you need their support to help you accomplish your dream, or to move forward or to do anything challenging, whether that's lose five pounds or move across the country, just have those people, check in with this people every year, every so often to know that you're supported."

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:30

That is amazing advice, especially just coming off of this, it's like fresh, it's hot off the press. Did you still, for all intents and purposes, kind of like just been through this. And just gotten off the train, if you will. Even I forget, like I'm surrounded by this all the time and I've gone through this and I found these same things for myself too. And I totally making multiple career changes myself did not anticipate, like, that emotional tool that you're talking about earlier. And you mentioned where you're just having lots and lots of conversations with people and you're like, not just taking the actions, but you're also explaining the actions and then you're trying to help make it easy for them to support you in taking these actions and all the stuff that you just never imagined would go along with it. And I think that's part of the reason why so many people end up staying in the same place too, because that's hard.

Rebecca Maddox 21:22

It's hard. And it's risky. Because what's on the other end of the yellow brick road, right? Like...

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:29

Oh, my goodness. What if the wizard's me?

Rebecca Maddox 21:31

You never know. You gotta take that leap of faith. Well, the brick, you know, if you lead them to the canyon, well the bridge built underneath you like, you know, that's scary. Well, the other people will be there to support you? I don’t know, you hope so. And I think for me, I made the decision to, for where I was, when my job ended, I didn't have anything else lined up and I think that made other people nervous too. And, again, having that cushion, I think it was like that financial cushion was a way... it was almost like my first line of defense to say, "You know what, we're fine. We're gonna work this out. I'm working diligently on this. Everything is paid. Everything is good. So, what's going on?" I would also say during that time, because people are nervous and they project that nervousness onto you. And in addition to your own, like, insecurities, you're trying to deal with, "Oh my gosh, am I able to do this?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:29

Did I make the right decision? Oh, my goodness.

Rebecca Maddox 22:32

I would definitely... The negative voices came and something I also, that was helpful for me during the coaching experience was, and something I learned along the way was that it's also very important to give yourself some grace, show yourself some grace. And I would totally recommend Elizabeth Gilbert. Love her. She has her book "Big Magic". And listening to that was actually very helpful. This idea that you have this creative muscle and you have to give a little space to breathe. And maybe during this process, finding your... I felt a great deal of pressure to find the job. Coming from this job that I was at and then moving to another job, I felt a great deal of pressure to find something that was justified as like, the bigger better thing, right? And when Elizabeth Gilbert was talking about her... about artists who put so much pressure on themselves to try to create their whole career off of their art, that it kills your creative muscle. That resonated with me so deeply, I thought, "oh my gosh, I feel the same such similar pressure with finding the job. Like finding this, where's your career trajectory going? Like, proving success." I thought this is about finding what is my best fit for my skills. This is about find the next best step in my career for me to be successful, where the average person might put in 100% and get 100% back, but maybe where I put 100% and I get 150 to 200% back because I'm just doing what I'm supposed to do. And I thought, that's what I'm looking for here. So hearing that advice, kind of ease off a little bit and realize, "okay, if I have to go find other jobs to be a bridge for the moment, that's fine. I can do that. What's most important is I focus on finding the next best step for me." So I would definitely recommend Elizabeth Gilbert to anyone.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:34

I have had several people recommend that same book in particular, probably about, I don't know, 10 or 15 times or so. And I'm curious, as you went through this process, and as you were... you call it, trying to find the next best step for you, or something close to that. How did you end up working with Lisa? And what were the one or two biggest things that you ended up taking away from your interactions with Lisa about your next best thing? Because it's certainly not everybody's, right? It's individualized. Yeah.

Rebecca Maddox 25:15

Working with Lisa, which is great. Love working with Lisa.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:19

And by the way Lisa, we're talking about Lisa Lewis, for context here. You're going to hear her story happentoyourcareer.com/147 on episode 147.

Rebecca Maddox 25:29

Yeah, she was great. And I think something... so I just decided to start working with Lisa. Because as I was diving into the bootcamp, the free bootcamp at Happen To Your Career, and I was really trying to think broadly, I had this moment of thinking, "Okay, should I even... should I be a lawyer? What should I do?" I just went and took the kind of what color is your parachute approach, found Happen To Your Career, really started trying to dig deep and, like, lay a foundation. And I started working with Lisa when I got to a point of saying, "Okay, I'm pulling some of these things out. But it's, like, some of my strengths, some of my interests, but it's murky. I'm not sure how to move forward for this." And I think not knowing where you want to go, like, again, some people hear the burning bush or see the burning bush, some people don't, I did not. And I was wondering, I'm not quite sure what I'm looking for. How do I move forward? How do I develop this? How do I really, I was hoping to get that burning bush but when we didn't, oh gosh, I don’t know what I'm doing. So that's when I started, I think, feeling stuck. How do I move forward with this? That's when I called, Happen To Your Career. That's when I decided it's time to reach out to a coach who can, who's impartial, who isn't like my family because they don't have a vested interest in me being in one place or another. Because they love me. But you know, this makes me nervous. And it's not like other people on my network who, too, might see me in a particular way and then say, "Oh, but don't you want to do X, Y, and Z?" And then also some people are just so outside of the job search game that they just haven't... they have general advice, but it may not be what you need. So it was helpful working with her because she helped me think about structuring... how to structure or talking with people about what I'm looking for. What are the next steps to move forward? And two, there are moments when I was avoiding an issue in my career search that she would… she even called me out, which was great, she can call me out, "So why do you think you're avoiding this? What are you protecting on yourself by avoiding this issue?" That you're not just avoiding it because you're lazy or something, that's my phrasing, she never said that. But what are you trying to protect in yourself that you feel vulnerable about? Which was a way that like no one had ever proposed to me before. And wow, actually, that's a really good point. I remember I had his breakthrough moment, journaling about it. And I think, too, in addition, it was helpful to have Lisa through the interviewing process, because in addition to the pragmatic, like, "Oh, someone responded like this, how should I respond? How should I deal with some of the basic baseline things?" There was also this question of, I think, my inherent bias, having gone through trying to find a job in DC, as a lawyer in 2013, where there are tons of lawyers and people kept saying, like, where, you know, you felt generally, kind of disposable. And at that point in time, and having to scrape by for a job, I had an inherent tendency to try to form myself into the person I thought that they were looking for, for these interviews. Rather than presenting, "here's where I am, here's what I'm looking for. I would love to work with you in the future. If this opportunity works." Like I very much had this bias to try to get the job, right, like do whatever it takes to get the job. When in reality, just getting the job can lead to a mismatch and a miscommunication expectations and assumptions between you and the employer. So the employer doesn't do what they want, you don't get what you want. There's like this, there's just desperation in there. And even though, which came through, even though I have money and our money at the time to cover my bills, my baseline bills at that moment, but I was still just, that was just my inclination. And working with Lisa, it was helpful to strip down extraneous and get back to be more authentic without trying to preclude the opportunity. But just to be honest, and say, "hey, well, here's where I'm coming from. What do you think you're looking for?" Which really changed the interview process for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:00

That's a huge mindset switch. That is a massive mindset switch.

Rebecca Maddox 30:04

Huge. And it felt really bizarre at first because I thought, "oh my gosh, I feel like I'm naked in the room." Because...

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:13

It feels absurd at first.

Rebecca Maddox 30:14

It really does. I think, at least I was calling it radical authenticity in the moment. It was... it feels really bizarre because you're trying, either realizing like, there's just 100 in particular that I thought I know it once I say this stuff this thing's done, like I know, because I thought, I'm interested in the job, but I don't know for how long I would be interested. Given, like what this position is, I don't think I'd want to stay too terribly long. ‘Cause I would outgrow it pretty quickly. And they, I think, have the same concern. And I thought this would be like my foot in the door, at least getting the office. There's just so few opportunities. I’m just like, ah, I’m not sure. And so talking to Lisa about it, I practiced it, and then went into the interview and then actually said, "I would be practiced aligned to get ready for it." And once I gave my line of, “I think I would be interested in growing from this experience into other opportunities in the office. What do you think you're looking for? Or could you tell me what you're looking for exactly?" It's like, it's centering. It centers where your position of power is. And when I walked out of the office, I knew I'm not gonna get a call back from this. But I still felt okay with that, which is not the way I would have felt before. I felt like before if I had gone in and not conformed or not conformed or like if I hadn't tried to, like, meet what they're looking for to try to get the job, I would have felt like I was letting myself down because I wasn't keeping my options open. But then again, like, in this interview, I thought I'm being honest. They deserve to find someone that they think is their best fit. I deserve to have a job that works for me. I feel so much more comfortable with this. So it was kind of a different shift in narrative that I think ended up paying off for different interviews. And after I take the bar and looking forward to joining a firm in Fresno, California, where I will be doing, essentially doing litigation and using all those tools and things that I learned in law school and putting them to good use.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:22

This has been super fun for me because you and I got to talk way back when, as you were on the outset, looking at making this change. And then now we get to talk and Lisa has been keeping me up to date throughout the middle. But I didn't get all the juicy details. So this is super fun for me to get to find out a lot of this stuff after the fact. So congratulations again, by the way.

Rebecca Maddox 32:44

Thank you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:45

So I am... Here's my question for you, what advice would you give people as they're thinking about making this change?

Rebecca Maddox 32:54

Right. There in the beginning portion, talk to somebody who reach out to someone and talk to friends, and say, “hey can you even get paid does this sort of thing? I think it's interesting.” And maybe meet up for coffee, because a five minute conversation, because people are busy, right? Like less than an hour, great. Less than five minutes, great. Saying, “Hi, I think what you do is amazing. I'm really curious when you do your job.” I would say it's worth it. It's no pressure. And if it works out, that's how most people find their jobs anyways. And if you're in that moment and thinking, "Okay, there's nothing. Geez, I'm so entrenched in where I am, like, moving to a different opportunity is kind of a joke." I would say, you're probably wrong, unless you're in an extremely niche field. Because skills are transferable. And it's worth trying the bootcamp stuff, maybe doing a StrengthFinders analysis, doing something, just to get a different perspective. And ultimately, like if people are telling you, "you've got the dream, but it's something that doesn't feel right." That's fine. That's fine. Trust that. And if people are angry, they'll come around, especially if you like, you know this wrong, you're going to make yourself happy. It's going to make everyone else happy, right? Like do the right thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:23

Hey, if you've been thinking about making a change for a while now, and you don't really know how to best take the first step for get started, here's what I would suggest– just open your email app on your phone right now, and I'm gonna give you my personal email address: Scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. Tell me a little bit about your situation, and I'll connect you with the right person on our team where we can figure out the very best way that we can help you. Scott@happentoyourcareer.com drop me an email. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 35:00

I said, "you know what, I'm gonna wait tomorrow if I still feel the same way. And I'm still as fervently, you know, opposed to working here as I am in this moment, I'm going to quit." And I woke up the next day, and I still felt very fervently against working there. And I was like, "Well, I guess I'm gonna resign."

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:15

Do you remember those quizzes they had a steak in middle school, or maybe for you early high school that matched us with our career path that we should probably be on forever? My results said I should be an architect, or a dentist, or I can't even remember what else doesn't matter, right? But life would be a lot easier if we just took those results, and that was the exact career that would fulfill us for the rest of our lives. But unfortunately, that's not how it works. And the journey to figuring out our calling can take a lot longer than we expect. And it leaves us feeling pretty lost at times. If you're in one of those spots, where you're feeling lost in your career, or like you don't know what the next right step is, this episode is for you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:04

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Phillip Migyanko 00:01

Who is in your network right now who is one step closer to where you want to be?

Introduction 00:14

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more and ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:39

Finding your ideal career in today's world often hinges on building, maintaining and utilizing your professional network. Now, that seems like a pretty huge task. And honestly, it can be. There's no build relationships in the network quick tool that can be used to hack the system. It takes a lot of self reflection, persistence and authenticity. In today's episode, we're going to dig into a few questions that we get all the time about building relationships and networks which can include– how do I find people to reach out to and build relationships with and how do I even figure out who those right people are.

Phillip Migyanko 01:18

When you get to the stage where you're having to start essentially building your list of people that you're eventually going to need to talk to, who do you actually want to talk to and how specific can you get? So it actually comes from a spot of curiosity.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:33

Today, I'm not going to be your host. But I am leaving you in great hands. You'll be with Phillip, who has been our past Director of Client Results. And he's actually taking over as host today, and he's joined by Career Coach, Liz McLean. They both walked hundreds of people through a career change process. And one of the most important parts of that process is building your relationships inside your network. They're here to give expert insight on how to do what we like to call reach out and build solid relationships that will enhance your career search. They both give specific examples of their clients who have been successful with reach outs, including the tactics they used, as well as some tactics to avoid. Here's Phillip kicking off the conversation.

Phillip Migyanko 02:16

We've talked a lot on the podcast about the importance of reach outs and just basically building relationships. But the part we haven't talked too much about is, how do you find people to reach out to and then begin building relationships with them? And this is just conversations we have all the time. And essentially, how do you figure out who the right people are in your specific situation? So I guess, I'm curious for you, is because I've got some thoughts here, too. What makes, kind of, this the best next step for people? Like how do people get really good at finding the right people to reach out to or the best people reach out to?

Liz McLean 02:55

Yeah, and I feel like if we say that "best people to reach out to" that feels like a lot of pressure.

Phillip Migyanko 03:01

It does a lot of pressure, guys.

Liz McLean 03:04

No, I just directionally appropriate. But to say you have to have some kind of lens or framework to narrow through, right. And that's what we do with the first part of this process, Phillip. So we get people closer to defining what they want. And then they talk with people. And that becomes more exact through conversations that you got to have something to go off of in answering, "what do I want question". And typically, what I've found and working and doing this through the years, something like project management isn't enough. So we can, I mean, talk to me about what your thoughts are on that.

Phillip Migyanko 03:44

Well, I mean, I think that's a really good idea in there, right? Where, so given the example of project management. So what happens for lots of people when we get to this stage, so we'll get done with their strengths, we'll get done with their ideal career profile, and they go "Great! Who do I talk to next?" And then they get some generic title, like project management or something where it's just too big, and we haven't narrowed it down enough. And so then I kind of always go, "Well, who's the next person that you want to talk to?" Like, let's think about the next step. Or let's think about people in the whole umbrella space and get really specific on, well, what, you know, what level are they at? What industry are they in? What kind of focus do they have? What kind of mix of all those things? And it's not necessarily meant to overwhelm, but it's more meant to go, "Alright. When you get to the stage where you're having to start, essentially, building your list of people that you're eventually going to need to talk to, who do you actually want to talk to, and how specific can you get?" So it actually comes from a spot of curiosity, and not to overuse this word because it's being overused quite a bit is, authenticity.

Liz McLean 04:55

I knew that was the word you're gonna say.

Phillip Migyanko 04:57

I know. I don't mean to put it out. But authenticity, meaning that, when you actually get... because you're gonna have to get in a conversation with these people, like our clients, we have to prepare them. And if you aren't actually wanting to get in a conversation with them to get to know about what they do, instead of what they can do for you, like most the time people go, "Oh, I'm gonna get on conversation." They're gonna go, "Oh my gosh! Liz, you're absolutely amazing. Here's the perfect job I just made for you up on the spot, blah, blah, blah, blah," and people go into the wrong way. So you have to go back before that and start to get kind of nitty gritty. And if you have a lot of trouble in there, then usually we tell people, "Let's just get really specific on who you're curious about", or sometimes even using warm contacts, meaning do you know that could be those other people.

Liz McLean 05:43

Yeah, I just wanted to add to that, Philip. I think that you said, coming up with those parameters or those filters to be like, "what size?" and you said, it can be overwhelming. I think it's making some decisions. And not to say that it can't change in the future. And I think what becomes more overwhelming is that when you then go to LinkedIn.

Phillip Migyanko 06:04

Oh my gosh, I'm nodding my head over here.

Liz McLean 06:06

If you haven't pre-decided for yourself, that's not gonna go well. And that overwhelm is even worse, getting on LinkedIn and not having those coming up with the authenticity or, like, what you really care about, what your personal filters are before you even get on that tool?

Phillip Migyanko 06:27

Yeah. And then, if people are often having trouble there, I then think about, like, who is currently in your network right now, who is one step closer to where you want to be? Or thinking about it as, who's a connection of a connection? Who is that next person where you want to be? So if it's like the Six Degrees of Kevin Bacon kind of thing, right? Someone you know that you can get closer to that's kind of the same exact person or kind of three or four steps ahead of you, that you can know. And essentially, then you're creating the conversation in a way that can allow you to go, "Okay, so if this person is at the next stage of this next step where I want to be at, then I can think about how I reverse engineer that to where I want to be. And now, like, and before we hit record, I was saying, "Hey, I think sometimes what people accidentally do here is they will aim too big, where if they want to be a basketball player they go and they try to reach out to LeBron James first, and then they go, "Uh! LeBron James didn't respond back to my email after I sent him one email then one follow up. Oh, this is horrible." And Liz, you disagreed with.

Liz McLean 07:38

Oh, yeah, I jumped right in on that one. Because well, I'm like, alright, if you were my client Phillip, I'd be like, "All right, that's a poor sample size. That's one person. And if you want to go big and go LeBron James, like, go for it. Just know that you're playing the long game in that. You better have other people on your list while you're at it that are easier to get the meeting with." You can get a meeting with Lebron James, he's a person who takes meetings. Are you going to get it from your, like, LinkedIn request? No. Are you going to get it from one request? No. So over time, I mean, it might take you a year of really strategic efforts to have conversations with the other basketball players in the meantime. I'm not saying don't try to talk to Lebron James. Go ahead.

Phillip Migyanko 08:23

So I take that. Now you say it that way, I agree. Which is, keep going for those big people. But also like, at the same time, this process is built through lots of conversations over time, and there are different strategies for each person. So I guess I'm kind of curious, because I know this is stuff we talk about a lot– when people start to build, essentially, their roles list, their companies list, their contact list, there's definitely wrong ways to do that. And we've seen that time and time again. And then there's better ways to do that. I'm not gonna say right ways, because I think there's... it depends on every individual where they're going for. But there's definitely better ways to do that. Kind of starting with the not as great ways first. So do you have examples lists of clients or a client who, kind of, approaches it not the best way?

Liz McLean 09:16

Yeah, maybe a less effective way.

Phillip Migyanko 09:18

Yeah, that's a better way. I like that.

Liz McLean 09:20

I would say, it's people that come at it. And we've already touched on this, too general, right. And they haven't narrowed enough and they maybe go to, "Well, these are some of the best I hear. I've heard that these are the best companies to work for." Like coming at it from a source outside of them and what they really want, what they've identified in their ICP as their values to be like, "well, I should go talk to this person here" versus, what you said earlier, "I really want to talk to this person. This person looks really cool. Like I just would love to hear about their experience doing X." So that's part of it. The other thing I would say, another example, I just want to use Lebron James' example. If you want to talk to LeBron James, because you legitimately want to know something about LeBron James, that specifically that he's done, great. If you just want to talk to him about ego and the fact that he's LeBron James, less effective way to go about it.

Phillip Migyanko 10:23

Well, yeah, I mean, I think it goes back to one of the things that when people begin to start building their comfy list, what they don't think about, or what they'll accidentally do a lot is they'll kind of just check the box off, kind of go, "all right, I just built a list of people who were at the best places to work in [insert city]", or they'll like, they'll put Google, Amazon, Meta, these giant companies like, well, this is where everybody wants, everyone wants to go and just want to talk to people always there. And there's no compelling reason, kind of, behind it. And the reason why this matters, and this is what Liz and I find time and time again, is that we live in a world now that's different than, kind of, pre-COVID. But it's been changing even more so, which is, people are hip to this game of this cold reach out email strategy. And what I mean by that is everyone's kind of doing this now. And I don't know when the last time you've been on LinkedIn, or any of our listeners have been on LinkedIn, or things like that, but I get spam messages all the time. And they all sound the same, which is, "Oh my gosh! I just happened to find your profile when I was randomly searching on LinkedIn, and I was quite impressed with your background. And because of this reason, this reason and would you have a quick 15 minutes to chat?" And it's just like, oh my god, it goes back to the point what you're saying before were people miss the point of like, how to find people that you actually want to reach out to, which is, the thing that they do wrong is that they just do like a general search, and they just go general, and then they get general or subpar results back. And so really...

Liz McLean 12:07

But where they think they should go versus like, "hey, did you just forget all that stuff we just did on your ICP", right? How does this line up with all this stuff we identified for you? You still forget when you get to that stage. I don't know why, but yeah.

Phillip Migyanko 12:24

The more important piece here is, there is a lot of things out there that just spam people's inbox. And so everything just becomes really, really generic. So what happens again, yeah, people go at this in a general generic way, where they don't really have a compelling reasons of who they want to reach out to, and why they want to reach out and then the message gets lost, and essentially all the other spam that's being sent by robots, or by actually other people that are sending general messages.

Liz McLean 12:56

I had someone the other day, well, actually, no, she kept... I think I need to block her, but she keeps spamming me. And then now I think she's got it, like, just five minutes. Like she's trying to get my business. And she's like, "Let's get on a call for five minutes." I'm like, "What the fork can we do in five minutes? Nothing. Go away."

Phillip Migyanko 13:16

That's exactly right. People just generally use a general template. And then they just reach out to general people. So the issue that most people get to is they just... they're being too generic, and they're not really getting to what they're needing to get to. And so for people who are very specific and get really great results, I know you've got some examples, I do too, where essentially, they will kind of, I'll say it this way, they ditch the less professional way to go about it. So what I mean by that, they essentially ditch the template and they use the bones of it, right? They use the, "Hey, let's make sure we get time. Hey, here's the thing interesting about you. Hey, here's my ask." But generally, they ditch the template and how they find those people is, again, they go back to who they're curious about. But really, more importantly, is they're being very intentional about how they found them. So I have a client who... it was really interesting. So she's in the process of trying to find different roles right now. And she just happened to be on one of these people's emails list. And she's just was like, "Oh, they might be great." And then we've been doing a strategy to reach out to them and talk to them via Instagram, because lots of people's email inboxes are overflowing like we mentioned on their LinkedIn, they're getting spammed by lots of people. And so we're just like, trying to interact in a whole different way over Instagram, because it feels more genuine but essentially, that's where the people that she's wanting to serve or work with are. So getting really ultra specific on all right, who are the people that you actually want to talk to and where do they live on the internet or what's the best way to be able to go and find those people.

Liz McLean 15:04

Yeah, I love that. I was just... you said the words that I was thinking, where do they live, right? Where do they have conversations? And really, we do need to see it, even though you have never, you know, it's the first initial message, you do almost need to envision it as a conversation, even though they're not talking to you yet. And where they live, and some of those other spaces, you can show up a little bit more creatively, you can have more fun with it than what LinkedIn lends to. I know, Phillip, you've done that.

Phillip Migyanko 15:35

Yeah. Well, it is further emphasized because it's how you find them. So if you just find them randomly on LinkedIn, which doesn't always... It actually works sometimes. I find out, I get better results, or my clients get better results when the person is active on LinkedIn. And when they usually have, sometimes their email address in their LinkedIn profile, because they're indicating they want to be contacted. But there's clients who will, again, find people from their email lists and as we've looked at specific associations, and then they'll reach out to people that way, but going on in a much more creative way of, how are you intentionally finding the people makes all the difference? I think in the world, I think you got a client with that.

Liz McLean 16:26

Yeah, no, I mean, I love those. The other thing I'd say about LinkedIn is, you know, using it to find groups, finding active groups that are actually having a conversation about the topic you want to be a part of, again, like, going back to what do you care about? Joining the conversation there, and then trying to generate some meanings or conversations based on that in that group, and that interest area versus a general area. Yes. And we love the associations, particularly because their charter a lot of times is to help further the field and educate others on what the role is actually about. So you can generally get they want to be of service in that way. Other creative ways I told you the story recently, Phillip, I had a client who were talking about talent mobility, and I said, "Hey", I say this for anything really, but particularly this area, because that's one of those words that a lot of people use, but the people that truly believe in, the tenants and how you do it, "right", I guess it gets sorted out. And it's like, is it practice actually being done? So this client, really, I said, "Go find the subject matter experts." And that might be at a B school, like, the people that really are gonna get on their soapbox on how you do this, and how you don't do this. People that are putting out content in these areas, usually willing to engage. Who's, I think I use the shorthand recently with a client to be like, who wants to geek out about this with you?

Phillip Migyanko 18:01

I love that question.

Liz McLean 18:03

And so it's finding them to get particularly in the beginning stages of that learning, because you can show up and say, "Hey, this is why I'm interested in this. This is what I'm about. Where would you have me go? Who would you have me talk to? What companies are getting this, well, like we're talking about with "talent mobility", what companies are really doing it and getting it right?" And then they will probably know the answers to those questions.

Phillip Migyanko 18:27

So there's a couple things that you did in there that people might not notice. So a bunch of things you did in there. So first thing was that, so this is what we often talk to a lot of our clients about, which is, okay, the people that you're looking to reach out to are generally the subjects are interested in, more specifically, are interested in the things you are, so they are more likely creating content. So essentially, you need to find those one avenue to begin to find people to reach out to is finding those content creators. So you might have heard of Vicki on this podcast, she did that very same thing. She was really interested in the Treasury. And so we found a very specific Treasury podcast, where they brought in VPs. And then we had a whole strategy of reaching out to VPs there. But spoiler alert, everybody in their brother is creating content out there, no matter the space, like, I legit had a client... I tell the story all the time to my clients. But I had a client who was interviewing for a company in Dallas, they were a company that essentially took off when they have these 3D printing machines, they have all this excess junk on there. And that, which sounds like a very boring company, and I would never probably talk to them. But the more important piece is that company had a podcast, I was like, "Oh my gosh, if they got a podcast, they all have podcasts." Then I was like, "Oh my god, if this boring plays out in podcasts, then the more interesting you're getting at." Sorry, I don't mean to offend.

Liz McLean 19:56

No you're not. You're not sorry.

Phillip Migyanko 19:58

It's really be boring. I also beat up on pool filters a lot. That's usually my boring sample. Pool filters must be really boring. But sorry, if you're into pool filters, but anyways. So for the kinds of things you're doing, there's finding people who are geeking out about the same things that you're geeking out about. But then you're not necessarily then approaching them about, "Hey, can I get a job? Can you give me a job here, these things like that?" The way you're approaching it is what we're kind of mentioning earlier on in the podcast, which is, "Hey, I'm really interested in this, let's geek out about this idea. These are the things I'm struggling with. How can you help me? Or what would it look like, give me your perspective, to get to this next step, or this perceived next step that I have?" So it changes the conversation, essentially changes your approach. And that then changes who you reach out to, and how you find people to reach out to. Because it's not about, well, what are, again, what are the best companies to work for? And what's this company over here? It comes from a spot where this is something I'm actually interested in from either the subject, the mission, who you're doing it with, all those things, and that changes the game entirely. Because it becomes not just this fixed end, it becomes an infinite process where... Exactly. You're gonna keep going to and keep going to explore and keep showing up in a lot of those different ways.

Liz McLean 21:21

Can I share another one of my ideas that I have?

Phillip Migyanko 21:24

Go ahead. Yes.

Liz McLean 21:25

It's a recent one. Well, actually, no, I don't know if it's the recent one. So I'm going back to talent mobility because it's fresh in my brain. One of the other things that I do with this client is finding a topic like that, right? There's so many SaaS companies, right? So there could be problems, that there is a software as a service for. So if you find like, who is the person that is serving these people, and go on their website, right, so be exact, there are lots of HR, SaaS products, right, there's lots of talent mobility, SaaS products, go on their website and see who they're bragging about as customers who have been successful. Because those are the companies that are really following and being successful, it's like, really have skin in the game in this problem or area versus a company that might be like, "Okay, we're gonna subscribe to this", and maybe don't execute very well. And so that would be a company that I would put on my list, because it's like, oh, you truly value this.

Phillip Migyanko 22:26

I've had people... I tell my clients the same kind of thing. So I'll tell them when they go to, for example, when they have a conference coming up, I tell them to go look at the sponsors, go look at the like the companies that are there, the booths and those kinds of things, more than likely, they're there because they have figured out that their markets close or like they really have similar missions, or they have similar kinds of things. So I'll tell people to look there. I'll tell people to often look at like sponsors for like your favorite podcast, so you have favorite podcasts that you like, usually, you can like, "Oh, well, what are companies that are sponsoring this?" and then sometimes that company might be too big, but then there are other similar companies to that or within that space. So it kind of, it creates those kind of next steps. Or I'll even tell clients like, "All right, well go and look at people in those associations that you're looking at. And then look and see what company they work for, or previous companies they work for too", like, there's so many different ways that you can look, and you can get to that. But it doesn't really start off until you've actually, like, figured out where you want to focus your time. What I found so much in this work is that you can get as specific as you as you want and get really nitty gritty, and that's kind of required, but it doesn't happen at first, that kind of happens over time, you kind of have to build the plane as you're flying it, so to speak.

Liz McLean 23:50

Right. But what really gets you going is having that general of like, what am I interested? Where do I want to go? Where do I want to be? Like, some kind of filter the first, like, we've discussed this, right? So that you're not reaching for, what are the best companies to work for, but you're reaching for or trying to find what are the best companies for me, for Phillip, for Liz, based on what we've already identified?

Phillip Migyanko 24:18

I asked the question earlier about, so I didn't ask the question moreso put out, like, well, here are the filters that I generally think about when I'm, you know, helping clients determine, like, which companies have been on there. I usually make them specific to the person. So for example, I have a client right now, he works in a really big industry, over in Boston in defense. And so we are looking at individuals and companies that have like a defense arm where it could be easier to transition into. It's very important for him that he works in a global company because he travels. So essentially, those are the two big filters that we use right now, and then we're getting better filters over time. Are there any other filters that you generally use for people for how to build a company list or even contacts? Those are just examples of it's very individual, but just like in general.

Liz McLean 25:14

I mean, they're not general, right? So they're very specific to everybody. I had a client that was coming off a not great experience at a company where they hadn't been in support working mothers very well, like they did in terms of talking the talk, but they didn't walk the walk. So for her, one of the things we did was obviously look at her interests and her skills and what she wanted to do, but then we overlaid the filter of, "hey, who's really good at supporting working mothers?" and not just who made the marketing list. And so that's a challenging thing to do. So you can find groups, right? There are groups where they can ping, and people can ask questions. And yeah, so that would be another one example that comes to mind of a past client. Another one, I had a client that really wanted or I have a client now that really loves creative production. So her job, her general job, she could do anywhere, but loves her creative production work, and loves doing it for events. So we are targeting organizations where it's like, they better have a big event that she can be a part of, and that she can run and do creative production for. Otherwise, it doesn't make the list. So I'm trying to think, does that answer your question, Phillip? I mean, I come up with more.

Phillip Migyanko 26:37

It does, because I think it goes back to the same point that we're coming back to, again, as it goes back to this question of, how do you find people to reach out to? Well, you got to know who you're reaching out to first, and why reach out to them? Essentially, what you're valuing what they do, or what their company does, and or like, what's actually important to you.

Liz McLean 26:56

Or what they don't do. I had a client, it's like, I will never work with a company that works as a supplier to Walmart, like, I don't want to be connected to Walmart.

Phillip Migyanko 27:06

Really? That's specific.

Liz McLean 27:09

Yeah, I had another client that, you know, is vegetarian and be, like, "I'm not gonna work at any company because of values as far as animals go" yeah, that's the individualized part. I was gonna bring that up. Show up and be vulnerable, and tell people because you don't know where that leads gonna come from either, like, sorry, just for lack of a better word, that lead is gonna come from. I worked with a coach years ago, I totally cut you off sorry.

Phillip Migyanko 27:22

Yeah. And I think it comes back to this bigger idea of the values that you have, and it could be different for everybody. So the one client I was mentioning who wanted a global company was that, he wanted to make sure he's spending time with his family back in his home country, like, and he also... so that meant for him is like, he doesn't wanna have to have a job or has to take off time to go back for those things like, what if he could work while also being home, both home in the United States, but also home in his home country? I was like, okay, when the big value he has is spending time with his family, and is like teaching his kids with the family, spending time with their family. So it goes back to this values perspective. But really, what are you intentionally wanting, and that helps you then begin to reach out to contact those kinds of people. And this is what I usually tell people, at least tell my clients, is that you're not the first person to struggle with this thing. There's other people who struggle with this. The hard part is actually finding them. And like we said before, they're creating content, they're out there. And sometimes you actually might have to go first. Like, you might have to actually be vulnerable first. This is what I'm trying to figure out. No, go ahead.

Liz McLean 28:51

I talk to him over two years ago, I said, he's like, "Tell everybody." He's like, "Tell the person, like, tell your barista, tell your dry cleaner, tell your..." he's like, "there's only... you just don't know. But you gotta have a sense of that idea, and then be vulnerable, and tell people how they can help."

Phillip Migyanko 29:10

It's this idea that I think I've been talking to all my clients about in the last two weeks, which is, it goes back to this professionalism bs, which is, everybody out there has everything figured out. And if I don't show up with everything already figured out and have my pitch about exactly where my value is, and exactly what I'm looking for in all these things, then I can't do all these things that are going to happen later on. And it's more, like, it gets... and then what happens for most clients after that is they try to do that, and then they never end up reaching out to people or they have really crappy conversations that they didn't end with their expectations of what they wanted. So it's how you show up to the conversation in that vulnerability but also like their curiosity, all those kinds of things, but it comes back more of, this idea that everyone's just trying to figure it out. And these people that you're trying to reach out to, are also trying to figure life out probably one way or another, more than likely, right? Every single person does. Doesn't even matter the most. So it's like going out from that way just allows you to have more freedom, allows you to have more fun, and then treat this as an iterative process, like, who can I reach out to who's geeking out the same thing I am? Or who values the same things that I do? Or who's doing this really great work that I just absolutely love, all those kinds of things? And I think that's the better way to find people and how to find people, but most are unwilling or don't get deep enough to get to that level to help with all those things later.

Liz McLean 30:46

Yeah, you got to slow down a little bit in the first part. And then the other part, I mean, I'll say to clients, like, would you rather receive the email that's like, "I've got it all figured out. And I would like to connect with you." Or an email to be like, "Yeah, man, I'm kinda lost but I really love this. Would you talk to me about this?" Because people are like, ah, thank god, we don't need more experts out there, I guess. And you don't need to show up as, yeah, I mean, you said it better, Phillip. But it's more... It's endearing. It engages people more to show up and be with that vulnerability, not emotional dumping, that's a different thing.

Phillip Migyanko 31:26

Yeah, this is where I have to tell clients here, like, there's a level of vulnerability, like, we don't need to be telling everybody and our brother, every single thing or like, this what I tell clients, you don't have to be as professional as you think. That's not to say you should put your feet up on the desk, like, I'm not professional, like throwing it all professional, unless that's what the person is going for on the other side. But again, I generally don't say that. I think it's more of approaching this in a way of being human and have any other personality. And I think we live in a world where it just becomes harder and harder. But well, thanks so much, Liz, for talking about this with me today. I appreciate this. This is stuff we jam out on all the time. So thanks for having this chat with me.

Liz McLean 32:06

Yeah, thanks, Phillip, it was fun. I appreciate it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:13

Most of the episodes you've heard on Happen To Your Career showcase stories of people that have taken the steps to identify and land careers that they are absolutely enamored with, that match their strengths, and are really what they want in their lives. If that's something that you're ready to begin taking steps towards, that's awesome. And we want to figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, take the next five seconds to open up your email app and email me directly. I'm gonna give you my personal email address– scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And when you do that, I'll introduce you to someone on our team who can have a super informal conversation with and we'll figure out the very best type of help for you, whatever that looks like, and the very best way that we can support you to make it happen. So send me an email right now with 'Conversation' in the subject line. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 33:12

I remember people saying, "Oh man, but you've got the dream." And it kind of raises a red flag as people say, "you have the dreamy thinking out there." There's lots of truth to that. But something feels off right now, at least for what I think I'm looking for.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:29

One unexpected obstacle that you might have to overcome when making a career change is dealing with reactions from the people closest to you. Okay, surprisingly, these reactions are not always positive and encouraging. Your friends and family likely want what is best for you. And they may not think that a career change is a smart move. So how do you navigate these conversations with the people closest to you and get them on board to support you as you make this big life change? All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.