Introduction 00:05

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:29

Out of all the things that we get to do here at Happen To Your Career, I have a lot of favorites, I gotta tell you. There's one thing that I almost always make the time to do, because it's absolutely fascinating to me. It's fascinating because of the psychology that goes on behind it. It's fascinating because I love to look at it as a gigantic social experiment. It's fascinating because I want to see how far I can push the boundaries in some different ways to really understand how we work and think as human beings. And this particular area is negotiation. This is really one of my favorite topics. Yes, I know that makes me a weirdo. I'm 100% okay with that. I absolutely love it. I can't stop doing it, quite frankly, because it's so fascinating to me. Even the, oh my goodness, just in the last week, my kids are getting into hockey, and then negotiating on hockey equipment just because I want to see how people react. And this is something that really plays a massive difference into you, your career, your life, your lifestyle and, ultimately, many of the choices that you have.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:51

Today, let's focus on how you can create a higher degree of monetary resources just through negotiation. And here's a question for you. When do you have the most power, the very most power, to negotiate in your job, in your role, in any company that you're working with? Think about it for a second. When do you possibly have the most power? Yeah, if you haven't already guessed it, out of all the possible times, the very best time to negotiate your pay, your job, your terms, anything else, is when you're making a career change to a new company, and a new job specifically right after they've made you an offer. Well, why is that? Well, let's talk about a few truths here from their perspective first. Well, once you get to the point where they've given you an offer, it's a pretty big deal for both you but also for them. Very often, they've spent a huge amount of time going through the process to decide that they want you. And this is a really important factor not to be overlooked because they're emotionally invested, and they've decided it's going to be you in the role, not someone else. And depending on your level, the level of the role that you're interviewing for, likely, they've had other people involved in the process, too. And they probably had to have different levels of approval from their boss, or maybe finance or HR, the CEO or someone else, and it's going to be a little bit dependent every time. However, somebody else probably had to say yes in some way or commit to you so they're not going to be very excited to change anytime soon. Because of that, and a variety of other reasons, you have more power to negotiate now, at this time, than any other point of time. Keep in mind though, this is only after they make an offer. None of this applies while they're considering it. None of it is trying to negotiate by the way. Well, they're considering making an offer, not all that particularly helpful. Which is why, you know, throwing out the first number isn't necessarily advantageous to you. In some states and in some places in some countries, that's not legal now, doesn't follow the regulations for them to ask about past salaries. However, there still are a variety of places on earth where it is perfectly legal and well utilized. Okay, but first, let's address that first question head on. When does the actual negotiation process start? When does it begin? And what is the discussion? So it's really simple, but I've seen very experienced, very intelligent people miss the mark on this one because they're so excited about a job or a company and they have started to have some results and gotten good feedback and maybe somebody told them, "Hey, you're on your way to an offer." Okay. So you do not start the compensation in terms negotiation discussion, until you have an actual offer in hand. If they haven't actually given you terms, or if they've said, "Hey, we're going to make you an offer, but there isn't an actual offer yet." It's only going to hurt you to try and negotiate at this point. However, if they've said, "We're going to give you $104,000 and we would like to offer you the job", then that's different. They're now giving you actual terms. Many companies may email you an offer letter, some will even snail mail it, some will verbalize the offer over the phone, because they don't want to type it up, they don't want to type up the actual offer until it's been verbally accepted. But at the point in time where they tell you that they are offering you the job, here's what I want you to do, because very often that is in person or over the phone conversation. I'd like you to first express gratitude, then express excitement and interest, and then ask for time to consider and agree on a timeframe, and thank them profusely. And here's how that conversation can sound in that order. It might sound like this, "Thank you very much. I really appreciate it. I'm really excited about this opportunity, I think that is going to be a great fit. I also don't make big decisions like this immediately on the spot. I always want to make sure that I'm in 150%, before I give you a firm, yes. And make sure that this really truly is the offer that I want. From everything I can see, I think the job is a great fit and the company will be too, so I'm really excited about that. But can I get back to you in five days? Thanks so much. I really appreciate it. I'm super excited about this." So it can sound like that. And that was really simple, very simple conversation. Once you're asking for time to consider, it does a couple of things behind the scenes. And a lot of people don't think about this. This is some of what it triggers, it often allows the necessary conversations to happen behind the scenes. Your future boss might need to talk to the finance person or their boss, they might need to have discussions to see what they can do for you. If you ask for more, they might need to question, "Hey, what are our limitations, etcetera." It queue often some conversations that so when you call back, you can negotiate. A lot of people don't realize this. Okay, the second thing here is it causes them to realize that you may want to negotiate in the first place. Most companies expect it, but typically only a small percentage do. Usually they're going to be expecting that in one way or another. And you not accepting it, point blank, indicates that there may need to be negotiation going on here. If they didn't say they were going to mail you the offer letter, or didn't give you the details for how that offer is going to get to you in a written form, then specifically asked for them to email you the details of the offer. Even if they weren't planning putting together a specific offer letter, this will force them to put it in writing for you. And if they balk at this in any way whatsoever, you can just say, "Hey, it doesn't need to be something incredibly formal. I just want to make sure that I understand exactly what the offer is, so that I can get you a firm yes, or ask you any questions or let you know of anything that doesn't line up, and then we can have a discussion about that. But I want to make sure that I understand that because there's no way I can say, yes, unless I understand exactly what the offer is and what's entailed with it" Okay, by the way, at this point, congratulations, because you've just received a job offer.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:34

All right, now that you have the specifics. If the monetary compensation doesn't fit your desired level, the next piece of the negotiations planning will be research. You know, what are the market norms? What does the company usually offer as far as pay? What about their benefits packages, time off, maternity, paternity leave? Try to look at it from a total compensation perspective. And you can get really creative by the way, not just salary, but vacation, iPad, company car, many other things, right? Get as creative as you want. I personally, for my situation, have negotiated pretty large amounts of paid time off, because that's something that was very important to me. An example of that, I made a career change, and we were going to have a baby. And they didn't have paternity leave available for people who were there less than six months. So I negotiated a bunch of time off and they made an exception just for me. It was actually pretty easy for all of us to do. And it worked out really well. And my boss felt it was the right thing worked well for me. I came into the job, was there a month, and then took about another month, maybe it was five weeks or so, time off to be with the new baby and my wife and my family. And it was part of the negotiation. It wouldn't have happened in that same way had I not brought it into the negotiation. So the question becomes, what can sweeten the deal for you? Anything that can make it a better deal is something you can ask for. Doesn't mean that they will be able to say yes, necessarily, but the more creative, the better. And it can make it work. During your negotiations conversation, when you call back with them or meet with them again, here's how that needs to go in order for them to be able to have an opportunity to say yes to any part of what you might be asking for. It's a little similar to that formula that I suggested earlier for the initial call. I want you to express gratitude and excitement, and then let them know it's a perfect fit, except for the areas that aren't, and then you can share why it's not. And by the way, if you don't have a blatant reason why it's not a fit, or it's not a clear reason why, like in the one case I negotiated a difference, because they were going to have me working in a different state, which had different taxes. And it would have made a pretty big difference to my salary. So negotiated more pay, and it was a pretty substantial, easy to understand reason, and pretty justifiable from everybody who is involved. In some cases, it can really just be that what I'm looking for is different than what you've offered. An example of that might be, your offering 85,000. What I really wanted in this next role change was 92,000. And that was the low end of my target and what I was looking to make a move to. So that's when the real question comes in. That's when the next question comes in. How can we make that happen? Or what would it take to make that happen? Now, there's a lot of psychology buried in there. And this is the part that I absolutely love, because that question ends up allowing you to begin it as a partnership. Very cool, right? Okay. So here's what that can sound like. It can sound like, "Thanks again for picking me for this role. I'm still really excited about it. And really excited about the organization and working with y'all. I think that it'll be a great opportunity for me. And I think it's a perfect fit, except for what I was really looking for." And this is, by the way, where you can insert the compensation, the benefits, the other items you want, an example of this would be, "I was really looking for a 95,000 instead of the 82,000 that you've offered me." And if possible, this is where you're going to provide the reasoning too, "The cost of living for shifting over to this area, and making a move is pretty drastically different than what I'm accustomed to. And I really want to make sure that I can take this role and feel good about this aspect of it as well. And also my research shows that most people are actually making 97,000 in this particular type of role with similar experience at similar organizations in this industry." And then after you have shared that, you can say, "How can we make that happen? Or what would it take to make that happen?" One of three things is going to happen at this point– they're gonna say, "Yes, we can do that. No problem, not a big deal, we'll take care of it." Or number two, they might say, "Let me get back to you in the next 48 hours. Or let me get back to you after we've had a chat here and see what we can do." By the way, this is the most common thing that will happen after you ask in negotiation. Or they might say some variation of "No, can't do it." And this is the part where if they say no, or something similar, the question becomes, well, what do you do? "What if they tell me no? Oh no." If you get a "no" answer, it might not actually mean no. In fact, most of the time, it does not mean no. It might mean, "we can't do that right now" it might mean, "I can't actually make that decision", as in the person you're asking right there is not authorized to make that decision, or "I was only authorized to go up to this amount." Or it might mean something different that we haven't talked about. The way that you're asking for them to do it, may not be something that they can do because of company policies or state regulations, or something else, which means that you might need to change how you're asking for it or speak to a different person, or change the playing field a little bit. And I had to consider when making job offers what other people made in the company. This was when I was working in HR leadership. We wanted to have fairness and equity as we brought people in. And that said, and even when I was considering all of those factors before saying, "Yes, somebody can make this offer in our organization or somebody can make that offer." No didn't always actually mean no. A lot of times there were ways to make exceptions to it. So here's some questions you can ask to help change that "no" into a productive partnership, where you're working to figure out under what circumstances could this be possible. So one question might be, "What can you do?" Or, "what could we do instead?" Or, "how could we make that happen?" Or, if it's not the right person to talk to, then you might say something like, "Who in the company does make that decision?" Or, "who do we need to talk to?" Ask this if they aren't the right person, "Is there anybody else that needs to be involved in making this decision?" So all of those are great questions to begin that conversation and continue it as a partnership. And if they aren't able to do it in the way that you're asking, you might not know all the reasons and asking, "what can we do instead" is a way to open up discussion about it and have a more frank discussion, and change it from a 'no' to a "helped me understand what else can we do and work a creative way around it." Okay, so I've given you some of the negotiation scripts, that same script and formula that I gave you is actually something that I pulled straight out of our bootcamp program, our Career Change Bootcamp program. At the time of this recording, we've only had three people that have ever gone in and utilize the processes that we teach there. And the scripts that we're talking about, and they have not had their organization willing to do something for them, willing to change that offer in one way or another, only three people. So what does this mean? Well, I take it to mean that, generally, just asking in the first place is going to get you most of the way there because many people don't ask because they're afraid at that point in time that the offer is going to be pulled away from them. And what I found is that that is really, really rare. Does it happen? Sure, very, very, very rarely. But it's unlikely to happen, because they've invested so much in you, unless you ask for something unreasonable like they've made an offer of 104,000, you're like, "Oh, wow, we're way off. I was actually looking for $497,000", then there's probably something you may need to have spent more time in the interview process. However, generally, what I found is that just by asking alone, they're going to be able to do something to, if not meet you halfway, go all the way to what it is that you're looking for, or you'll be able to open up a productive discussion, and maybe even turn that into an opportunity where you get a raise earlier than what you might normally have, as you move into the role. Okay, we've helped hundreds of people through situations, just like this, being able to get sometimes very, very substantial raises and increases as they go into negotiation. But I also want to be really clear with you that the scripts that I've talked about, yes, they work. Part of the reason they work is because just asking for something is going to make it much more likely that you're going to get it. That's part of the secret sauce. That's not so magic behind the scenes. However, the other part of it is, inside our Career Change Bootcamp program, we're teaching a lot of the psychology that leads up to that and teaching people even how to go about the interactions that they have, so that when they get to the negotiation phase, then it's even easier to be able to negotiate because they want you so badly in that particular role, and because of how you've handled the conversations and interactions up to that point. So I want you to know that and understand how and why some of those building blocks start to go together. And by the way, if that's something that you're interested in, one of the very best ways that we do that is through that program, it is a 16-week one-on-one coaching program, following a very specific 8-part framework that we've developed and perfected over the years to figure out a career that fits you, test it for reassurance, and then make your change. And many of the people that you've heard on our podcast, have gone through that program. And that's part of how they have moved from one role to another or from one industry to another or from one completely different occupation into another. So here's what I would suggest you, if you thought about making that change, you want to be able to get ahead, then drop me an email directly Scott@happentoyourcareer.com and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And then I'll introduce you to my team. And I will be thrilled to pieces to connect you up with them. You'll have a conversation with them. Tell us a little bit about your situation. We'll work really hard to understand what you're doing and figure out the very best way that we can help, whether it be Career Change Bootcamp, or otherwise. It's what we do. It's what we love to do, and we'd be thrilled to pieces to help.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:53

Here's the thing that I want to leave you with though in this particular podcast. Just by understanding what you want, and then asking for what you want, makes it significantly easier for you to be able to get where you want. So don't ever forget that. And start practicing asking for what you want and being really clear with yourself about what is most important to you, whether it's negotiation, or otherwise. And in short order, over a period of time, you'll start finding that you're getting a lot more of what it is that you want. Now, here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week right here on Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 2 20:32

The idea of stepping off that track felt like I was stepping into an abyss. And I didn't really know where I would go next.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:41

When I was a kid, I was often asked the question, "What do you want to be when you grow up?" You probably been asked this too. And back then, I thought this was a pretty harmless question. So I was always ready for it. Architect, obviously. That's what I wanted to be, at least for a while, until studio recording, and then the next thing, and then the next thing. And again, I just thought it was a harmless question. But many years later, I started to realize that it wasn't. I've come to realize how useless this question is, and how all it really does is teach us from a really extremely young age that we have to pick the exact career we want, instead of figuring out what our strengths are, and what's really going to make us feel more fulfilled and gathering experiences and mastery and all the other things that actually helps with fulfillment, happiness, enjoyment, and often the result of this very normalized mindset of the, "what do you want to be when you grow up?" The perfect thing is that when we actually begin to study for or practice, that one career that we've always dreamed of, if it doesn't work out, we're left feeling like we failed.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:47

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Ben Fox 00:01

Along the way in your life, you are told "no." Or you are forced to do certain things that then close the door over time towards what it is you really wanted

Introduction 00:22

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:47

Here's one for you. What does thriving at work mean to you? This should be a simple question. But we find that most people are basing their answers off of what they don't want, or something that is better than where they're at now. An example. Well, I don't want all the office politics at work or I want more flexibility. Those sound reasonable, right? But even if you achieve them, you're probably far from thriving. This means that the biggest thing holding you back is that you aren't allowing yourself to dream big enough or specifically enough.

Ben Fox 01:24

We're not basing this off of any reality that you've noticed. We don't want to use what already existed. We want to dream. Dreams are from the collective unconscious. So we need to get into a different mindset.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:40

That's Ben Fox. He's a career coach at HTYC. He's made quite a few of his own career changes, which include teaching, owning his own business, even acting. And if his voice sounds familiar, then it's because you've heard his full career story in Episode 496. We'll link that up in the show notes if you're interested in going back to listen. Ben describes coaching as working with people to stretch beyond what they thought was possible to achieve their dreams. I love that description. He's the perfect person to have on today to talk about how we work with clients to think outside of what they've ever imagined, or what they've ever thought possible to define their ideal career. More importantly, for you to be able to take some of what we've learned working with clients, and use it for yourself. Ben is someone who dreams very big. And as a coach, it allows him to lead by example, and help clients get clear on what their career must haves are and then to push through their mental barriers to figure out what is in fact an ideal situation, and what does that even truly mean. Breaking down what we call our must haves and ideals, when it comes to our career seems like a pretty simple concept, but the funny thing is, we limit ourselves much more than we realize, and we don't even know what's going on. And part of the reason for that is because we only know that what we have heard of or experienced ourselves, which means that if we don't have exposure to something, this creates a limitation that we don't even know that we don't know. In this episode with Ben, we walk you through specific exercises that we use with our clients, to get them to dig deep, and figure out what they would want, what they do want out of their career if there were no limitations. We also share the number one tool we use to help people identify what thriving looks like for them. So I want you to listen close as we go through this episode. But first, here's Ben discussing the problem that many people run into when they begin the process of defining their ideal career.

Ben Fox 03:48

It's definitely a challenge for a lot of people. And I think partially because people come to a career change having had to survive for so long and have this mentality of, you kind of get what you get, you try to get the best you can from work, but it's not necessarily there to give you joy or support your life. Like you have a function, you take care of it. So you take care of your family and they don't die, go homeless like extremes. I think that's true for a lot of people, at least mentally. Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:32

I think what you say is true. So then when you're thinking about, like, how do you pursue, or even think about something that is not in those extremes? It's not the surviving. It's not the tolerating. It's not the, you know, I don't know, insert another word here that is on that extreme. And then when you're wanting to go to the opposite, and then say, how do I pursue something that is better or something that is exciting, that is something really challenging to just, like, flip the switch in so many different ways.

Ben Fox 04:34

Well there's a lot of conditioning, culturally speaking in the US, probably a lot of other countries too. You need to be grinding, you need to be setting yourself up so you don't fall into these pits of despair. The media doesn't help, of course. But yeah, these are not just family patterns. These are much larger societal things that I think a lot of people experience.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:36

Okay, so one thing that we see all the time is that people will listen to the podcast, and they will hear of other people that have had these pretty amazing stories. And normal people, wonderful people that have had these really cool stories where over often many, many months, they have gone from being in that situation, whether they thought they had to tolerate all the way to a situation where it matches up with some of their ideals. And, you know, certainly many of the things that they want for their version of their ideal career. So the question becomes, you know, how does that even happen? And then also, how do we even think about this? And I know the goal for you and I today is to talk through functionally, how people can even think about what we often call ideals versus minimums. And we'll get to defining that here in a moment. But let's talk about dreaming first.

Ben Fox 06:48

One thing I assume when people walk through the proverbial door, as clients here at HTYC. One thing I assume is that they're not so thrilled about their current work situation. So there's a little more leverage. If you've made the decision to get help with your career, there's some line in the sand you have drawn, saying, "Hey, I'm kind of done with how it's been going." So it gives me a little more access to this person's ability to dream. And I'm just personally someone that dreams really big. And I've found, as a coach, it allows me to lead by example, by doing that. But I find that when we think of dreaming in the context, we're talking about Scott, it's a prerequisite for people to move away from the things that didn't serve them to a type of situation where they can live out their ideals, where they can use their strengths to do the work, and have the type of situation that they really want.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:09

We use the ideal career profile as our tool of choice for identifying what would make up an ideal career opportunity for our clients. I invented this when I needed a way to represent what I learned about my own version of an ideal career for myself. We separated the ideal career profile into seven sections, which, if you've read the Happen To Your Career book, you know already that this aligns with the seven elements of meaningful work. These elements are contribution, flexibility, and autonomy, quality of life, growth, signature strengths, supportive people, and finally, values or what we value most. We're not going to go deep into what each of those are, every single one has its own definition and how it relates to meaningful work. However, we do have a bonus series where we walk through each of these seven elements and define them and go deeper into. You can actually find those links to the seven episodes in the show notes. So definitely check out the show notes, there's gonna be quite a bit in there that'll be relevant if you want to dig deeper into anything we discussed in this episode. But let's go back to the ideal career profile. Each of these elements is separated into two parts. If you want to visualize them, think about it as almost two columns. And on the left, we have what we call minimums. And on the right, we have what we call ideals. Minimums mean, what are your must haves or the deal breakers for each element of meaningful work? For example, when it comes to your values, what do you know you need to be able to have or do to show up as your complete self? What values do the people that you're surrounded by and the organization as a whole need to have in order for you to feel like yourself at work? If these aren't there, this is your minimum, and anything else would be a deal breaker. Otherwise, if you're accepting anything else, then automatically you are settling, right? Once you've defined your must haves, that's where you can start to dream bigger and focus on your ideals. You might ask why do we separate out minimums from ideals. The biggest reason that we found is that psychologically, we have a struggle to dream big and think about what could happen or might happen in the future if we have not already addressed the most pressing needs that we feel like we have. If we haven't handled the basics or drawn a line first with those minimums in terms of where we will and won't accept for us to be able to continue to have meaningful work, then it becomes really difficult for us to look beyond that, and actually start to dream. So this in itself, the way that we've set up the ideal career profile, and no, it didn't actually start this way, this has been a product over the last, I guess, ever since 2013. We've noticed that people struggle if we don't separate this out. So we've built it into the tools that we use, because particularly that ideals section can be one of the most intensive parts of the career change process. Why? Well, we find that when people start working through each of the areas of meaningful work, they're not able to get as specific as they need to in order to make it actionable for themselves. You may have found this too. I've struggled with it as well, that just means that we're all human. The funny thing is, when we think we're being specific, we say things like, "I want to be excited when I come into work each day." That sounds great. And that is true. But there are so many more layers to what you need to understand about what creates excitement for you, or how that's created, or what makes you most excited, or what even causes you to move through that up and down. Once you begin to understand these layers and the contexts, that's what allows you to get to what you really want, and what an ideal could be for you. One great example of this that we hear all the time when working through the flexibility and autonomy section is "I want a remote role." Here's Ben giving a great example of how he walks our clients through this and gets them to get specific on what they truly want.

Ben Fox 08:41

People will often say, like, "Yeah, I'd love hybrid or remote." And I have to clarify with them. "Well, you say hybrid. What do you mean by that? Do you mean that you would like the ability to go into an office whenever but primarily be at home and have the flexibility to choose where you are whenever? Or do you want a company that's like we are in the office Tuesday and Wednesday. And the rest of the day is your home or somewhere else?" And people are like, "Oh my God, I don't even know it could be that flexible." It's like, well, we're not basing this off of any reality that you've noticed. We don't want to use what already existed. We want to dream. Dreams are from the collective unconscious. So we need to get into a different mindset. And what I tell people is like if you had exactly what you wanted, what would that look like as far as location. And some people are like, "I want the ability to be anywhere in the world and do this work. And that there's an office that can sometimes go to see my colleagues because I still like to see them. Or if it's not an office that we meet a few times a year." I'm like, "Yes, that is specific." Now we're talking way different than "I'd like hybrid."

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:00

So if we're talking about getting super specific, when it comes to defining your ideal career, let me give you another example of what this can look like. Because it can be really hard to break down. One thing we hear all the time is, "I want to work in an organization that is mission driven." But when we start to dig, we discover that it's not just about an organization that's mission driven, often is about more than that. It's about things that are deeper or more specific than that. Let's play this out. Let me give you an example of how this normally goes when we are doing this internally with our clients. And you can use this progression for yourself. Is it going to be the end all be all or the magic pill or anything? Probably not, but it's enough to get you started so that you can think about this a little bit differently so that you can get to your own set of meaningful answers. Okay, so we start with, "I want to work in an organization that's mission driven." Well, that's fantastic. But what does that actually mean? What are the types of root missions that resonate more than others? Is it about your values? Is it about something that you value? Or is it about a problem that you're excited about solving? Or still, it could be about something else? But I just want to give you those two examples. So we start to say, okay, well, what are the missions that you identify with? Let's point to some that you identify more with in the real world. And maybe it's about something that you have personally experienced. Well, I recovered from, this isn't my example, this is an example from a client. "I was able to work through and beat cancer, and that is something I'd love to be able to help have an impact on with other people." Okay, that's fantastic. That is more meaningful than other types of missions. What other types of missions are meaningful to you? And it might not just be from the, it's impacted you negatively standpoint, although that's a great place to start looking when you're thinking about, like, what is the type of mission or problem that you want to solve or work on? But it could also be about like, what are the types of missions that get you excited that you find yourself already being drawn to? For example, maybe it is the impending change to electric cars. And that idea in itself, is something that you get really, really excited about and have been thinking about for years and sort of can't stop thinking about it. If that's the case, then that doesn't mean you should immediately go into the electric car industry. But what it does mean is that that's another sample. That's another data point to question, okay, what is it about that that gets me excited? Is it about that problem itself? Is it about the idea behind the technology? Is it about the fact that it is changing an entire industry, or entire section of the world? Is it about something else that we haven't identified yet? These are the questions to help you peel back layers in order to get specific enough. So we already covered a few what has been very challenging for you or emotionally a problem that you resonate with, because something that you've had a not so great experience with, or a terrible experience with in your life and overcome. Another area could be those things that you are drawn to, because you're particularly excited about it, and then start to break apart. What happens from there? Because those alone are probably not specific enough. People have a tendency to jump at the first thing. "Well, I should definitely go work in solving cancer. I should definitely go work in electric cars." But how can we get more specific? How can we continue to peel back the layers? So as we mentioned, what if you ask yourself, well, what is it about that, that you like? Is that true for other situations? Or why is it that you want that? Or how could we get even more specific about what are the contexts that are the situation? So this exercise of continually asking yourself questions to get deeper into the specifics of your ideal role can help you get past mental barriers, and you didn't even realize were there. I also fully recognize, like, this is part of the reason why coaching is one of the things that we do as an organization. Sometimes it's really difficult to do this on your own. I often work with a partner or a coach or somebody else, in order to help me recognize when I'm getting up against my own limitations that I can't see for one reason or another. Because I only know what's in my head. And so I recognize that. So working with a friend, working with a mentor, working with a coach, working with, you know, someone else often can help you dig deeper than what you might have done alone, because often you'll get to something that seems obvious to you and it's actually not the answer for what's going to make you happier fulfilled later on. Which means that, chances are high when you thought you've been specific enough, you need to get even more specific. And it's easy to see why often these come from assumptions that we've made about work, or how we grew up or what we've seen in society and they formed your thoughts around what work is for your entire life, just like the 40 hour work week, for example. Here's Ben again.

Ben Fox 19:51

One of the things I've noticed people get hung up on in this process too is hours that they worked. The hours and when. A lot of people come into coaching conversations, working more than what we consider full time, and I have to tell them like, "Hey, if you're working 60 hours, you're working time and a half, by the standards we've set a full time." And if people are coming in feeling kind of overworked, burnt out, when I get to this question of, "Hey, what would the ideal hours look like for you?" Like, "Oh, you know, full time's fine." And I have to pull them back, pull them out, show them, especially for, like, people who are becoming parents, new parents, and tell them, "Hey, listen, let's take everything you know about the way the corporate world is set up, and put it to the side." And if I said to you, "Hey, you can work however many hours per week that makes sense for you, and the life that you're creating, what would you then say? Would it be like, hey, I don't really want to work on Fridays. And I don't want to work more than 32 hours. And I'd like to be able to start at 10am because I have to bring my children to school. I want to get the full eight hours up and show up ready to work. And I'd like to end by four. Because I want to be a parent or I want to work out and explore my city, or pursue this creative art, like, I want to be a painter as well and I want to have time for that. And still get paid well. So I can live in this place I want to live in." Like, oh, okay, so we're not talking about nine to five, we're talking about, how do we allow you to have the lifestyle you want and how does that relate to your time? These kinds of innocuous little questions. How many hours do you want to work? But what do you want in terms of location? Are actually quite informative conversation starters where people coming from. Because so often, it's based on this history that was way less than ideal.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:18

Isn't that funny?

Ben Fox 22:18

I think it's our job and this is the beginning. Yeah, it is funny. I mean, it's sad. I personally feel sad, that that's the case. But I feel so relieved that I can have this impact on people, like, "hey, it can be anything you want." Doesn't mean it's gonna happen exactly how we're saying right now. But we need your brain to open up in that way.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:43

I think what's fascinating about what you're talking about is that when we come in as professionals, just even asking those what you call innocuous little questions like, what hours do you want to work? Or, you know, what does flexibility look like? It gives us a sense of where people are starting from in terms of gives us little clues into what some of their existing beliefs about what is possible are based on how they're answering those questions. Which is cool, because then I mean, every single person can only start from where they're currently at. And then to your point, that we get to make the impact of helping people think more broadly than that, or more holistically than that, or reimagining what they believe to be true. And I think that's really powerful and fun.

Ben Fox 23:37

I like that you said fun, because that's what was going on in my mind as you were talking. I literally feel like I'm in a playground, beckoning my clients to come down this slide with me into this ball pit, or jump on this trampoline. Like, I'm literally saying, let's have fun. And they're like, "Oh, no, I can't."

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:04

"I can't slide down on the ball pit. No, I don't. There's a lot of balls in there".

Ben Fox 24:10

Yeah, people have let society, culture, fill in the blank, create what these boundaries are. They're already created. Full time is a concept that has been created relatively recently in human history. And doesn't even hold for most people, at least in corporate America. They're working more than full time and they're okay with it because they're making a good salary. If we are not defining these things, they're already defined by other people and people who don't really care about what you want. So the space definitely showing up allowing people to be wherever they're at. And then yeah, like allowing them to take off all this baggage and slide into the ball pit with me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:01

Well, let me ask you about this then. What about if something feels impossible? Because that's something I've heard over and over and over again throughout the years, where it's like, you know, is that even possible like, or that doesn't feel like it's a possibility or that doesn't feel real or that doesn't seem realistic. I don't want to focus on that, because that doesn't seem realistic. Tell me about how you think about that.

Ben Fox 25:25

It's important to pick out the word "feel" here. This is often what in our heads based on our experience of our past we believe, in a feeling of impossibility. There's no way that could happen. I've never seen this, I've never experienced this, it just probably doesn't exist. And I think part of the work here when you start talking to a coach is feeling the impossibility. Like that's a heavy weight. My dreams equal impossible. Okay, there's something really important for us to uncover here. Because along the way, in your life, you are told "No". Or you are forced to do certain things that then close the door over time towards what it is you really wanted. So now this way of impossibility that you feel or experience or believe to be true, becomes the part of the prerequisite to actually getting the things that you want. We need you. And I feel this way right now, as someone who's stepping pretty fully, it feels like there's no way I can make this happen. And when I'm in those moments, and when I'm in those moments with clients, I have to remind them and myself like, "Hey, this is actually a good thing." The fact that it feels so hard and impossible means that we are clarifying where you're coming from, like your whole psychology as it relates to these things that you want. And I'll just speak again, personally, I had it in my head since I was young. Because I have a lot of artists in my family. If I wanted to be an artist to professionalize in this thing, or not do it. And I've known this about myself. And I've got to the point this year, or I said, "I'm done with that." I don't want to think like that anymore. I have so much fun when I act, I'm gonna go for my dreams now.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:47

Making an intentional career change is an opportunity to create a vision of a career that truly fits your life. This process isn't about trade offs, like I wouldn't take less money if it just meant I was happy at my job. It's not about settling. It's not about toleration. If I had to go into the office three times a week, I could totally make it work. If you find yourself any things like that, then you're probably accidentally settling. The reason you go through all the time, effort, energy, to identify what you must have in your life and what is ideal for you in your career is so that you can get to the point of thriving. Now, the other thing to acknowledge here is that while this work may seem tedious, it has huge ramifications on whether or not you will find your version of your ideal career. Most people are not clear on what they truly want. And when that happens, it becomes difficult to find what you truly want, nearly impossible. But when you do understand what you want, it creates a competitive advantage for you because it helps you be able to immediately move closer and immediately focus on what you're looking for. Also, organizations and hiring managers will come in with their idea of what you need. But when you already know what your must haves and what your ideals are, you can turn the table and be able to integrate into the conversation and ultimately negotiate for what is the best possible solution for you and the organization you might work with. I personally believe that every person in this world at this point in time deserves a freaking amazing career. I really do. And it's more possible in so many different ways than what it was for people 20, 50, 100 years ago. And is it the same for every single person in the world? No, absolutely not. But the majority of us in many countries at this point, have this possibility. I think it's your responsibility to define what you want, and not waver because that's going to impact other people. It's going to impact productivity in the world, it's going to impact your happiness, which then gets passed on to other people. And spreading positivity is something that can strangely come from having a fulfilling career. Okay, if you want to get started on this, let me leave you with two things. If you haven't already been through our Figure It Out 8-day mini course, then I would encourage you to start there, we'll put this link in the show notes too. And what it'll do is it'll ask you a couple of questions every single day that will help you begin to create your own version of your ideal career profile that we mentioned earlier. Or you can go to our website, and it's right on the front page. Just click, put in your email, you'll get an email every day for eight days. And then from there on out, you'll get some of our most valuable resources right in your email box. So go check out the show notes for that 8-day mini course.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:55

Now, here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week, right here on Happen To Your Career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:00

Out of all the things that we get to do here at Happen To Your Career, I have a lot of favorites, I gotta tell you. There's one thing that I almost always make the time to do, because it's absolutely fascinating to me. It's fascinating because of the psychology that goes on behind it. It's fascinating because I love to look at it as a gigantic social experiment. It's fascinating because I want to see how far I can push the boundaries in some different ways to really understand how we work and think as human beings. And this particular area is negotiation. And guess what, I realized that we really haven't done very many episodes on negotiation whatsoever. We've been doing this for seven years. The Happen To Your Career podcast has been going on for seven years, well over a million downloads, and we've never, ever really done a sizable episode on negotiation and telling you how to do it. And the crazy thing is, this really is one of my favorite topics. Yes, I know that makes me a weirdo. I'm 100% okay with that. I absolutely love it. I can't stop doing it, quite frankly, because it's so fascinating to me. Even the, oh my goodness, just in the last week, my kids are getting into hockey, and then negotiating on hockey equipment just because I want to see how people react. And this is something that really plays a massive difference into you, your career, your life, your lifestyle and, ultimately, many of the choices that you have.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:46

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:01

Look, if your goal is to get a job, fine, go ahead, do your informational interviews. But if you have a different goal, say, to have a fulfilling career that also pays very well, well, that requires you to do things very differently.

Introduction 00:21

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:46

When I recently searched informational interviews on Google, I found, guess how many– 890 million results. Just a few, right? It's also pretty interesting that searches for questions to ask on informational interviews continue to trend steadily upwards ever since 2015. For some reason, the internet, job experts, bloggers and the media, well, everyone is pretty successfully convincing us that informational interviews are the answer whenever we want to make a career change. And honestly, it's pretty easy to see why the definition for informational interview, and this comes compliments of the career onestop says, "An informational interview is a meeting to learn about the real life experience of someone working in a field or company that interests you." Which sounds pretty good on the surface, right? So why does doing informational interviews actually create obstacles when you're trying to make a career pivot or simply to find a role that fits you? I'm so glad you asked. Well, here's just a couple of the reasons. It turns out that when you say, when you do an informational interview with me, even though you're asking for information, even though you're trying to learn about the real life experience, many people are going to perceive this as you're asking for a job. And if you're asking for a job, that triggers a lot of responses that you probably don't want, like, being transferred to HR or being told, "I'm sorry, we're not hiring anytime soon." Also, what about when you're an executive? What about when you're in senior leadership? Many people have this perception about informational interviews that are intended to be for younger or less senior people, or people that don't have it all figured out. So what happens if you're looking to leverage your experience? Now we could argue whether or not it is right in the world to have those perceptions and implications that come along with informational interviews. But honestly, I prefer to help you understand that, in general, we don't recommend doing what the rest of the world tells you to do, especially informational interviews. And that's exactly what we're going to talk about in this episode. Plus, what you can do instead of informational interviews, and how to have it lead toward a career that fits you. We've already talked about a small number of the reasons that info interviews can be less effective. But I haven't told you what we recommend instead, in most situations. Here at HTYC, we recommend what we call Test Drive Conversations, which at first glance sounds just like an informational interview. But it turns out, it's a lot more than just semantics. Test Drive Conversations are one tiny tactical part of a much bigger picture when it comes to finding and doing fulfilling work. And if you've already read the Happen To Your Career book or listened to the audiobook, then you know that the path of fulfilling work that also pays you well, well, it only becomes possible when you move through four main milestones. And yes, we cover those in the book, but I'll just share them briefly for you right here. So number one is what we call "setting the stage". And that's allocating time and resources and support, basically setting yourself up for success through the entire process to actually hit your goals as opposed to just jump in and go. And then number two is what we call "profiling your ideal career". And this is creating and essentially proposing a hypothesis of what you believe will create an extraordinary career for you next steps and beyond. Okay, well, that leads into what we call "experimentation" Experimentation, the whole purpose of it is to reduce risk while finding out if you're on the right path for you. And then number four is all about "making it happen". Once you validate that you are in fact on the right path, then it's building the most effective plan to get you there. Test Drive Conversations are one way, just one way, to experiment, to find the right career fit for you. More importantly, it's about testing that hypothesis that we just mentioned, or testing what we call the Ideal Career Profile or ICP, you've heard about this in other episodes, we've mentioned it a lot. This is important because, almost always, what we first believe is the right path for us is usually not the right path. And to find that right path usually is going to require experimentation, getting feedback from your experiments and adjusting the ideal career profile with new information. For example, if you go to listen to episode 128 with Eric, he was absolutely convinced that he would best fit into a career change to the solar industry. Spoiler alert, after doing roughly 20 Test Drive Conversations, he learned it was not the right industry for him. Same thing for Nancy Franco in episodes, much more recent episodes, 532 and 533, where she shifted away from her executive role, which she originally thought would be right for her. And what was actually right for her were two totally different things that she experimented with and tested and learned along the way. So here's the deal. As a psychologist and Harvard Professor Daniel Gilbert points out in his book, "Stumbling on Happiness", we are usually wrong when we imagine what would make us happy in the future. That's the human tendency. And this is because the imagination, well, useful for creative projects and dreaming big has multiple shortcomings when predicting the future about how we will feel after those dreams come true. Okay, so this means that finding fulfilling work is partially a detective process with a dash of science, and a whole lot of action around your cultivated self awareness. The real question, though, is how does that tie into the difference between Test Drive Conversations and informational interviews? Well, I'm so glad you asked. Let's review a few of the differences. Just a few. Okay, first of all, for a Test Drive Conversation, the goal is part of the intentional process, it fits. Part of the intentional process to find fulfilling work, and in the key milestones that I talked about earlier. Where informational interviews, the goal is, it's part of internet recommended job search tactics. Test Drive Conversations, the intent is to test a hypothesis and gain rapid exposure to new information and build relationships at the same time. Informational interviews, the intent, to learn information about a role to get a job. Test Drive Conversations, well, they take about roughly 15 minutes per conversation unless you want to spend more. And informational interviews often take 30 plus minutes, and it's a struggle to get info interviews. What do I mean? Well, for Test Drive Conversations, usually what we find, and over the last roughly 10 years, as I'm recording this episode, right now, we've seen about a 30 to 70% success rate for people to say "yes" to a requested conversation or interaction. Okay. And then for informational interviews, we have seen in the past about it roughly a 10 to 40% success rate. So that's been our experience, overall. And we've seen that in a variety of different ways. Okay, as a bonus though, for Test Drive Conversations, the structure we recommend, which we'll talk about here in a little bit, allows you to develop relationships quickly where people want to help you, and when they want to help you, also, they see that they potentially want to hire you too. And I would say that for informational interviews, if and only if you're personable, and you're already good at interviews, then it may cause people to recognize that you're a good candidate, but it's a far different structure. And that is more difficult for all the reasons we've talked about up till this point plus many more.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:51

Okay, what I'd like to do in the rest of this episode is take you through how to think about and how to actually perform Test Driving Conversations, but also preparing for those conversations to make sure it's authentic, enjoyable and helpful. So how do you prepare for these conversations to make sure they are authentic? Well, we're going to talk about that here in a second. But I just want to take you through the process or the steps that we talked about internally when we talked about Test Drive Conversations as a whole. So it starts with number one, identifying the person. Identifying the person that you want to talk to that is either a fit because you can learn something from them, or you're interested in their organization or role, or something else in particular, but most importantly, we mentioned earlier that it has to be a part of testing your hypothesis. So that means, of course, that Test Drive Conversations don't work because it's difficult to find those people if you don't have an idea already of what you want to do. And that is in the form of a tool that we use, called the Ideal Career Profile. So without that, it becomes really difficult to do effective Test Drive Conversations. So know that upfront. However, if you already have an idea of what you're trying to go after, if you know what you're running to, as we say, then it becomes much more possible. Then you can, of course, find that person, identify that person, focus on the people who can help you or hire you. If you're focused on roles in particular, for example, a director of strategy, you want to talk to people who are currently holding that role, or people who work with people in that role, or even people who manage or lead directors of strategy. If you're focused on organizations, talk to the people at the level you want to be at or above that level. If the organization continues to be a fit, then you want to talk to people at all levels. And what I mean by that, so you can learn up and down the organization, if it's really truly the right fit for you, versus just having one or two interactions and making the judgment based on that. By the way, where to find these people? Well, some places are obvious, like LinkedIn, or the company website or social media, but maybe some less obvious things might be like googling related keywords, for example, you could Google John Smith, ABC Corp, of course, and see what pops up. Or if you're looking to find other organizations in particular, you can search things like organizations like ABC Corp. There's also plenty of other tools out there for contact information like hunter.io, or BeenVerified, those are the two of the ones that we use in order to find email addresses, phone numbers, many other types of contact information as well, it's not that hard. It's not as hard as people think it might be. Okay, two is the pre-ask, yes, we have a pre-ask. Figuring out the best way to ask that particular individual to get them to say yes to the conversation itself. Even having that type of test drive interaction. Okay, so this is very different. And we could do many episodes just on this piece alone. So I'm not going to go deep into this right here. But basically, this means, how do you assess the best way to contact that individual once you've determined the individual and the best modality, and even the best angle, if you will? So best modality, it means, should I call them? Should I text them? Should I email them? Should I arrange a chance meeting? Reach out on social media. Contact through a friend, get an introduction. Should I fax them? Should I send a carrier pigeon? What should I do? Page their beeper? All the things, mostly joking on the carrier pigeon, but not entirely. And then what's the best angle? Well, you found out with a few Google searches that maybe you grew up in the same small town and have mutual acquaintances. That could be a wonderful way to create some instant rapport if you say, "Hey, I found out that you and I both know John Smith." So those are the things to consider. This is all part of the pre-ask. And then the ask in itself, again, I'm not gonna go deep into this here, but I want you to know that the asking itself often is crafting the best way to allow them to say yes. And the point that I want to make here is, we often leverage a lot of psychology when we're working with our clients on this. Because it seems like, it really seems like, I should jam all of this information into one email. But instead, I really shouldn't. Often we split it into multiple emails, or multiple interactions, or multiple messages, or even multiple phone calls, depending on what the modality is. And what that means is we'll often separate the ask for the scheduling from the ask for "Are you willing to have a conversation?" So part of the email in itself might, let's say, it was an email, then part of that might sound like, just off the top of my head, it might sound like, "Hey, are you willing to spend 15 minutes with me so that I can ask you a few questions about what you love about your organization and what has made you successful in your particular role? Just drop me a yes if you're willing to do that. And I'll send you some options as far as time and we can figure out all the rest afterwards." My goal is just to get a yes. Because we are humans. And if we have too much cognitive overload, or too many decisions at one time, then that has a tendency to overwhelm us. And then we just don't do anything with it– that email or that message or whatever, will just sit there even if I want to say yes. So two separate asks, which is counterintuitive, but so much more on that into just the psychology of the ask itself. And so just to give you a taste. Step number four is scheduling. Scheduling the freaking conversation, right? Okay. So after they say yes, after they say "Yes, I'd love to meet with you. I'd love to be able to spend a little bit of time with you." Then it's getting it on the calendar. Again, we're not going deep here at the present moment, I just want to give you an idea of what this process looks like so that we can talk about prepping for it. And then number five, is planning your conversation. That's the part we're going to talk about here in just a moment. How do you prepare for that conversation? And most importantly, when you're prepping a series of questions, how do you go in open minded? How do you ask questions that are gonna be both valuable for you and them? How do you ask questions about their answers? Learn as much as you can. Okay. Number six, part of the process, doing the thing. Actually, having that conversation. What I find is that if you prepare well, having the conversation is just fun. It's just really fun. Part seven, yes, there is still more. Seven is a follow up from that conversation. And I'll tell you right now that a big portion of that follow up is sending them "Thank you." But it's not just about the thank you in itself, it's partially about having that continued contact with them. Now that you've begun a relationship in any way whatsoever, I want you to continue that relationship and multiple interactions, however small, are really what can build that relationship from both sides. So being able to send them a thank you email, or even better a written thank you because you got their address when you were at that Test Drive Conversation with them, or you're on the call with them, or you're on the video chat with them, whatever it is, then that allows you to stand out even differently. Where on a daily basis, we're competing for people's attention. Okay, those are the steps of the process. We're going to focus mostly on step five, planning your conversation, preparing your conversation. Again, we want to make sure that this is authentic, enjoyable for them, and comes off as helpful. I mentioned earlier that we want you to prepare a series of questions. But also more importantly, I want you to go in open minded so that you can ask questions, so you don't get focused on, "I want a job or I want an outcome", you have to be able to give up the attachment to an outcome here. The idea is to explore, the idea is to be curious. And we all have built in BS meters as humans. So they will know if you're faking it, they will know. I promise you they will know. And I want you to learn as much as you can out of this conversation, just having that mindset is going to allow you to be able to get more out of it. But more importantly, they will get more out of it too. They're going to be thrilled to answer because it's going to be about them or something that they care about, right? And by the way, here's an interesting misnomer here. I usually haven't heard anybody talk about this anyplace. But it's been my observation over the years that people said over and over, people love to talk about themselves. But I don't think that's actually true. I think people love to talk about what they care about, and what they spend their time doing. And yes, people care about themselves. So sometimes that is true. Sometimes they love to talk about themselves, but sometimes they care about things other than themselves too, or care about other things more than themselves. So I find that that's a more true or more accurate way to think about it. Which means that if you can focus the conversation on things that they care about, that's actually really helpful for them and you, because they'll have more fun, you'll have more fun, all the things we mentioned earlier. Right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:41

Okay, so step one, to be able to get these conversations to go well prepare for these conversations. It's researching prior to building a conversation plan. I want you to find your potential areas of rapport. Rapport– meaning what areas do you have in common. What areas are going to create familiarity. I personally always do a quick research to look for things that I have in common, I do that on almost every conversation that I have with someone who I haven't met before, or I have my team actually helped me prepare that in advance, in one way or another to look for those things and have them stand out. I'll glance at social media, I'll glance at places like LinkedIn, Instagram, their company's website, I also Google their name, I see where they're mentioned. And I'll often go back into, you know, a couple of pages of Google results, because that's where you can often find the good stuff, you can find like, here's the charity that they're involved with, they were mentioned on the minutes. And that charity happens to be all about something that you care about, too. So you're going to have to look a little bit deeper than what most people will in order to find that. Sometimes it'll be immediate, but most of the time it's going to take a little bit of extensive effort. There's four particular areas that I often will look for, if I'm unsure as a first set of options. Either want to find commonality and where they're from, or where they've spent time, find commonality and what they do for work. Sometimes these might be organizations that we've worked at or familiar with in the past. And sometimes it might be commonality in terms of systems or industries or roles. There's a lot of different ways where you might have commonality and what they do for work. Family– tons of commonality that can happen through family or kids or kids ages or things like that. Passions, or hobbies or things that they get excited about. For me, travel or volunteering, or playing instruments, like all those are things that I have in common with a lot of people. Like, I love ice hockey. Ice hockey is not the most popular sport in the world, as it turns out, you know, far, far, far cry from soccer. So for other people that like hockey, it's like an instant connection, sometimes, because it's so much smaller. And those are often the things that I'm looking for, the things that are common to every single person in the entire world, where it can create a little bit of a deeper connection. Travel is a big one for other people that love travel too, often has had a profound impact on their life. So they love talking about it, which then changes the experience when we're actually talking about it. And obviously, I enjoyed talking about that, too. We literally have a whole separate podcast called Family Passport on travel. So, you know, clearly it's something that I enjoy. And I think that just to give you some guidance, when you're doing this research here, look for things that you feel confident about being able to express legitimate, authentic interest in them. Because when you do, and we'll talk about how to do that in conversation here in a moment, a few things will happen. One, they're going to be flattered, and they're going to want to know more about you. Often people feel compelled to reciprocate. And that can take a 15 minute conversation and turn it into a 45 or hour and a half long conversation that both of you are having a great time with. And certainly be respectful of their time. Once you go past that 15 minutes, check in and everything. But it's crazy how many times that will happen, when you are expressing authentic interest in them. And then two, it helps them like and trust you and feel like they know you. And once that's all in place, it puts you well on your way to a great impression. But I think what's more important than impressing them is it actually helps you get better information. When they like and trust you, they're more willing to give you more real information versus just face value information that is going to be more helpful to you in deciding, "Is this an area or an industry or a role or a company that I'm actually interested in?" Because, remember, the point here is not to convince them that you're amazing. The point here is to learn and test about your hypothesis about what you think you want so you can determine if it's something that you actually want, and then dive deeper into those areas that you've confirmed that you actually want. Like and trust goes a long way to do that. Okay, let's talk about how to plan your conversation. Getting an outline of your conversation down on paper or on a Google doc may seem unnecessary, but I promise it will help you feel more confident and more comfortable once it is time to have that conversation. There's some really great research out there too, that even if you go one step further, and you have vocalized out loud or practiced that conversation and you've said it out loud, then once that time it comes time for the conversation itself, then even if you didn't do a great job in practicing, even if you feel like you did a terrible job in practicing, you'll still, when it comes to the actual event, feel much more confident, much more at ease, compared to not having done that, by longshot. Let's run through a couple of, not basics but must haves: Greet them. Don't forget to smile, particularly if you're in the United States. You know, there are other cultures, other countries where it might not necessarily function the same way. But let's just pretend that we're here in the US. So greet them. Don't forget to smile, begin building rapport, that common ground that we just talked about, now's the time to use that. Go ahead and mention what you found, but make sure it's an actual connection to you. So I mean, you can be blatant like "Hey, as I was doing my research, I saw that you're a huge Cardinals fan. I saw them play when I was visiting St. Louis last season. Have you gone to many games?" And that actually shows two things: like it shows that I was doing my research which is kind of flattering. And then and also at the same time has that connection right away? Pretty cool, right? Or "I saw that you were a fashion major at NYU and how did you make the switch from that to corporate finance?" And then from there, set your expectations for the meeting, this can be as simple as saying you're excited to learn a little more about their role, or company. And then this is where you get to ask the questions, ask them the deep questions that will show what it's like to look at their roles. I'm gonna give you some examples of questions: "What's your favorite thing you get to do in your role? What are some of the strengths that make you great at what you do? What should every new employee know about working here? What do you like best about the company? What do you like least about the company? What type of people do you think will best fit at this organization?" Okay, I want to give you one more thing to think about. Respect the meeting time, don't go overtime. If you've asked for 15 minutes and be respectful of their time, watch the clock and call out when it's getting close to the time requested. As you get close to that anytime, ask them for permission to contact them again, or to keep going or ask for suggestions on who else they might recommend for you to talk to. And then if they have some suggestions, ask if they'd be willing to make an introduction. That way, it becomes the gift that keeps on giving. Biggest thing for you to remember in the case of looking into roles and organizations, and using test driving conversations, I mentioned earlier, you're not asking for a job or even an interview. After all, you're not even sure if you want to work there yet. The point of these conversations is to gauge whether or not you're interested in their role, or organization. Anything you'll find out will be helpful as you continue to pinpoint your ideal career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:42

Hey, if you've been thinking about making a change for a while now, and you don't really know how to best take the first step or get started, here's what I would suggest. Just open your email app on your phone right now. And I'm going to give you my personal email address, Scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. Tell me a little bit about your situation. And I'll connect you with the right person on our team where we can figure out the very best way that we can help you. Scott@happentoyourcareer.com drop me an email. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 2 27:24

Along the way, in your life, you are told no. Or you are forced to do certain things that then close the door over time towards what it is you really wanted.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:41

Here's one for you. What does a thriving network mean to you? This should be a simple question. But we find that most people are basing their answers off of what they don't want, or something that is better than where they're at now. An example. Well, I don't want all the office politics at work or I want more flexibility. Those sound reasonable, right? But even if you achieve them, you're probably far from thriving. This means that the biggest thing holding you back is that you aren't allowing yourself to dream big enough or specifically enough.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:18

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Jill Schmieding 00:01

And she said, "Hey, it sounds like you're doing a lot of really cool things. And you're doing a lot of cool little steps to get to where you are." She was like, "But don't be afraid to take that big step."

Introduction 00:18

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:43

This probably won't entirely come as a surprise to you. But we've found that when you start doing the work to make a big change, like, specifically a career change, those big moves bleed into every other area of your life. And if this is not your first episode of the podcast, you've probably heard this many times before when we talk about people who have made the changes in their work, and it influences them to play big in the rest of their life. Like in Episode 483, where Kate Gleason Bachman pivoted out of her lifelong career as a nurse and then went on to complete her first ultra marathon, not just a regular marathon, but ultra marathon. Pretty cool, right? Another client used career experiments to connect to people and then those people changed her life.

Jill Schmieding 01:29

I have some really cool individuals that I met and talked to and fell in love with if I'm being honest with you. And I know I'm an extrovert, and I love talking to people. But I really fell in love with, for the first time, the whole process of job hunting, you could say. Because for most of my life, I've just went on Indeed, went on LinkedIn, looked for a job, applied, that sort of thing, right. And then six months later, I'm either overqualified, burned out, bored, whatever.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:59

That's Jill Schmieding. Jill has worked in the financial industry for her entire career. She had been burned out for the last 10 years or so of that. But the golden handcuffs of the financial world had been very much holding her back from making the change. Okay, so how did she go from burned out over those 10 years to identifying that there were many ways that she could make her work better to start in a podcast to many, many other changes, including doing the Camino de Santiago Pilgrim Walk on a sabbatical? Well, to understand how she got from there to here, you first have to understand where this all started. Jill did an amazing job conducting career experiments. These experiments then led to a huge shift in how she was thinking about her life and her career. And this shift caused her to start making small changes in her life, which led to bigger and bigger changes. The biggest change of all? Well, you're gonna hear an update from Jill at the end of this episode. But first, let's go way back to the beginning of Jill's career journey.

Jill Schmieding 03:05

So where the career began was when I was in high school, I was talking to my mom and she said, "Well, if you want to make a lot of money, you should be a stockbroker." This was like my senior year in high school. So on my high school transcript, I actually wrote stockbroker. And so I went to business school and I kind of dabbled around with like, you know, there's marketing, there's advertising, there's business administration, I thought that was a little too generic for me. So I just went into business management. I got my degree. I was actually the first person in my family of six people, my parents, and I have three other sisters. So four daughters all together. I was the first one to get my bachelor's degree.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:43

Really?

Jill Schmieding 03:44

Yeah. Kind of crazy. My parents were super successful, but you know, the college just wasn't in it for them. But so that was cool. I finished with my bachelor's degree in business management. When on, "it's not what you know, but who you know", that is how I lived my life by that motto, pretty much the whole time, because my dad is a very successful businessman in Lincoln, Nebraska, where I grew up. And so he pours concrete, owns his own company. He did some concrete work for someone who worked at a financial company. And so it was just kind of like, my daughter needs a job, so to speak, right. And so I started interning at this finance company. And it just so happened that the woman who was the assistant to the financial advisor, she knew my grandpa. And so she talked to me real well and took me under her wing. And the rest is history. Really. I started working there. I worked there, got my series 7 and 66. And continued to work there until I wanted to relocate to Denver, Colorado, which is where I'm living now. So, yeah, it has been a really good career. I've learned so much and my mom taught me a lot at a very young age about investing in a Roth IRA, paying off cars early. I have some friends now in their late 30s and early 40s, that their parents didn't do any of that for them. And so I'm now trying to slowly kind of say, "Okay, well, do you even have a budget? Like, what does that look like? Oh, you want to start a Roth IRA? Okay, well, then let's..." and they don't even know what that means, right? So it's been really awesome to be able to help people in my circle of influence that don't know anything because of my career that I've had in finance for 16 years.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:27

That's really cool. So, a couple of questions for you. One, aside from what you just mentioned, in terms of being able to help others and in your circle, what else have you found that you really enjoyed about being in that space, and those types of roles, that type of work, that has been wonderful for you?

Jill Schmieding 05:49

Oh, yeah. Okay, good question. So, I'm going to talk about my, okay, I'm going to talk about the current company that I work for right now, which is a large fortune 500 Wealth Management Company. And seven years ago, I started working there. And it was really cool, because my manager kind of took to me. I think she just liked me a lot and saw something in me, actually, it's what it is, I think she saw something in me. And so she was offered up the opportunity to be on this council for people in my similar role. There was like, there's hundreds of what we call, I'm just going to call CSAs– Client Service Associates, I believe is what they're that stands for. And there's hundreds of them across the United States. But there was like 11 people chosen to be on this council that give feedback and listen to calls with the high up people back in New York. And so I got chosen to be on the council, it was awesome. At first, I didn't want to be on it. It's just because I wanted to do my normal job. But after a couple of months, I was like, Oh, this is cool. I get to network with people, I get to go to New York for work. And I get to just learn a little bit more about the ongoings of what was going on within the company before anyone else. So really, really cool opportunity there. And then there was a banking opportunity that I got told about where it was a volunteer position as well. I got to learn about the banking products that we offer, and then also give that information in a fun way to my colleagues who needed to learn that information. So that was another opportunity. I saw a girl present about banking, and she was a really good presenter, and I thought, "Oh, my God, I need to get better at my presentation skills." So I immediately joined Toastmasters International. I found, like, a local chapter here in Denver and joined. And they do such an amazing job. And so I found out through being a member that I love public speaking.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:45

Really?

Jill Schmieding 07:46

Really love public speaking.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:48

So let's talk about that for just a moment here. First of all, let's acknowledge that it was one experience that led to another experience that led to another experience, which then caused you to gain additional experiences, which then caused you to realize that you love public speaking. But first, before we talk about that, tell me a little bit about what were the pieces that caused you to say, "This might be something that I'm really excited about or interested in or want to dig more into." Tell me a little bit about that.

Jill Schmieding 08:23

Yeah. Oh, that's a good question. So the banking role, the volunteer banking role, I just felt like, so no offense to any bankers out there or anything like that. But some of those products are really hard and really boring to learn. And so I felt like I have a gift to where I can break down, kind of, boring content or complicated content and make it more fun and engaging. And that's exactly what I did. So it was all of the ways that somebody could do a mortgage. And I was just like, "No, I think I can make this better." And so I did this really cool presentation, and I got great feedback. And the bankers were impressed. And I was just like, "Okay, there's something here." There's a gift that I have.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:06

Yeah, so it sounded like, first of all, you took this topic that you felt was, we'll say that you saw an opportunity in, and then you took that all the way through and turned that into a presentation and then started getting some initial positive feedback. And then that caused you to take a second look at it and say, "Okay, all right. Maybe there is something here. All right." What happened from there?

Jill Schmieding 09:37

Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, yeah. So they had the banking program. The first year there was like six people. And then the second year it kind of dwindled, and I was giving presentations, like via in person, because this was all pre-COVID. And then COVID hit and we started doing just like virtual zoom meetings at work where I was giving presentations about banking stuff and then it just became me and another person. And I got asked to be on a call across all of the United States, it was like 400 people or something on the phone. And I was asked as one of the people to present, right, for the banking. Just my experience, you know, what I've learned that sort of thing. It just really did open up opportunities. And I was willing to walk through those doors of opportunities, which is something that I've kind of lived by now, which is like, okay, this is scary. But I see this as an opportunity. Am I willing to walk through the doorway? And for the most part, I would say, yes, I do do that in my life now personally, and professionally. And it was just those small steps that I feel like really gave me the courage to take the bigger steps later in life.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:48

I think that is amazing. I think that's the right word I'm looking for, probably so many other words. But I want to ask you about a couple of pieces in between there. So first of all, let's acknowledge that it sounded like dipping your toe in a smaller way allowed you to gain some of the feedback and realizations that then cause you to realize, hey, I want to dive deeper into this. Because as you said, maybe there's something here. So talk to me, let's go back to that time where you're starting to have those realizations for just a moment. Could you see that, "Hey, this is obviously something I want to continue to dive into" Or was it much more, like, maybe I should wait a little bit further in here? How are you thinking about it at that point in time?

Jill Schmieding 11:41

Yeah. So the first three years that I worked at my current company, I had all these opportunities outside of the normal scope of being an assistant to a financial advisor, which is what I've done, right? I was burned out. And I've told people actually, that I've been burned out for about 10 years. And that's embarrassing to admit. But there's comfort in having a good career. And there's also comfort in being able to say that I have a prestigious finance career, I find identity in that. And so I'm just now starting to say, "Okay, I need to find a different identity, because this isn't making me happy anymore." And so the first three years at my current company was awesome, I had so many cool opportunities. One that I didn't even mention that I think is very pivotal into my discovery was, I was a coach as well to other people in my similar role. And so I was doing the coaching, and I was helping people learn how to do different system processes. And one woman said to me, specifically, she was like, "Oh, my gosh, Jill, you should have been a teacher. You are so patient, you are so kind, you're so understanding, you're so easy to understand when you explain something." And I was just like, she goes, "You should have been a teacher in another lifetime." And I remember that comment. And I thought to myself, "I'm not going to be one of those individuals that waits for another lifetime. I'm not going to do it." I'm not going to stay in this career that is unfulfilling to me when I have these gifts that I feel like I can use in a different capacity, right? And be maybe more of a teacher-ish as a full time job versus a one off hour here and there when someone needs to learn something. And so it was her comment that I was just like, okay, I'm not doing this. I'm not going to just stay put, and keep doing this year after year after year.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:36

Yeah. I think that's really interesting. Because I think everyone gets little tidbits of feedback like that over the years. So two things stand out. One, it sounded like it was less about being the teacher and more about, hey, you're so patient, so easy to understand, the other additional specific pieces that really were on target. Because, yes, technically, in some ways you're teaching but it's not like go out and become an elementary school teacher or something like that. So it sounds like it's about the specificity of the feedback for you and you're getting tidbits of that along the way. But then I think what's really fascinating to me is, we all get that, not all of us have the same realization that you did, where you had said to yourself or committed to yourself, like, "I'm not gonna wait a lifetime, like, I'm not going to allow a lifetime to pass. I'm gonna go find ways to get that now." So what in that moment caused you to look at that differently, and begin making different types of decisions from that interaction?

Jill Schmieding 14:47

I think I've just been so... I've just been over it, right, for a long, long time. And so I think I'm just hungry for something else. And I think any sort of affirmation of a gift that I have, I was willing to like run with it and try to explore that more. And because I was like, okay, there's got to be something more out there for me to be doing than just being an assistant to a financial advisor, which there's nothing wrong with that job. I help clients all the time. And I teach clients certain things, right? And so there's something that I've kind of been mulling over where it's just like, wait, I get that need, met with the clients as well as with my colleagues. But there was just something different with, I think it's the content, right? It's the, I want to teach something more meaningful, and money is very meaningful, how to budget, how to live well in retirement. I value all of that a lot, actually too much being that I've been in the industry for so long, I value money too much. I'm learning that about myself. But I just want to find something that I can be more passionate about and teach that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:02

Well, I definitely think that it sounds like, part of it was, you were in the right time and place. The right time and place in order to receive that differently. And I've definitely seen that, and also personally experienced it for myself a lot were heard the same thing, not necessarily the same thing that you were told but heard something that could have been useful feedback, and in one time in place wasn't necessarily as useful versus when I was in a different place and ready to receive it. So, kudos to you for paying attention. And one of the things that I think you've done particularly well, and one of the biggest reasons I was really excited to have this conversation with you, is you have taken pieces like that– pieces of feedback, pieces of things that you've identified that you want to dig into more. And you've done a phenomenal job, embedding experiments into your work and your life, in order to find what fits you and perpetually reinforce that, perpetually learn more about what creates an amazing fit for you, what work you're enjoying, how you want to help people, how you want to teach people, like we're talking about in a variety of ways. I'm wondering if we could talk a little bit more about that. What have you done? Where did you start thinking about that as experimentation? And let's start there.

Jill Schmieding 17:30

Okay. So I want to give a little backstory and say that I've gotten career coaching from multiple people, actually, over the years. And there was one career coach that told me about a book called The Art of Gathering. She gave me the names of two books that have changed my life. I'll talk about the other one later on. But The Art of Gathering by Priya Parker, and I love gathering people together. So The Art of Gathering book talks about how to bring people together in a meaningful way. And I would say, that's one way that I have practiced everything that I've learned. And that is by bringing people together. So I had a party at my house a few years ago called chats and charcuterie, where it just had to charcuterie board, and then I brought people... This was kind of like towards the end of COVID. So people only talked about COVID when you got together. And I was tired of talking about COVID. And so I was just like, okay, no, we're gonna talk about different things. And so I invited people over to my house, we sit in a big circle, and it just organically took place, like the conversation and we never brought up that subject. And everyone just really connected. And it was really, people that I knew, from all different areas of my life, they all came together. And it was really cool. Because to bring people together and just communicate is such a blessing. And everyone felt really welcomed and seen, which is something that I really focus on when I bring people together. And everyone got to be heard, no one just sat on the sidelines and didn't get to talk. And I had a couple people in the group that were cognizant of that. And so if somebody was being a little bit quiet, we would give them an opportunity to talk, which I think is so important. And I'm also somebody who's like, hyper vigilant. So when I go into a room, I can sense when someone's kind of being left out. And I think that's just for my upbringing. And so it's always one of those things where I'm like, okay, that person over there in the corner hasn't talked to anyone, like, go talk to them, go say hello, make them feel included and wanted. And so that's, yeah, that's kind of what I do for my gatherings. So that's one way that I've incorporated, I think one way of incorporated some of the gifts that I've learned about myself is through that. And then another way, is the other book that the other coach told me about, which was Playing Big by Tara Mohr, she completely changed my life. It was just kind of a one off book about stepping outside of your comfort zone. She told me to read it, I read it, and then I started doing book groups with girls. Again, this was around the time where we were doing them online during the pandemic. And I facilitated those book groups and just asked thoughtful questions, offered accountability, which is huge. And my nickname now, what I call myself on Instagram is the Accountabilitist. I like to offer accountability to people in a positive, you know, way, not in a forceful way. And so yeah, the playing big book has just opened up the doors of like, pushing myself outside of my comfort zone, helping other people play big in their life. And that's just obviously, I don't know if we're ready to talk about the big thing. But that's why I started my podcast and a couple other projects that I have going on right now too.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:49

Let's talk about the big thing. Let's talk about all the big things.

Jill Schmieding 20:51

All the big things, yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:53

So what I've seen is there is a long standing, multi year pattern here where you have been able to get some tidbit of experience or feedback or something that's caused you to realize, "hey, I love this", or, "hey, I'm great at this", or, "hey, I want more of this in one way or another." And then that recognition has caused you to dive further in. And that's not a one time thing. It's not like, "I did this couple of times." This is pervasive for your last few years. Is that a fair statement?

Jill Schmieding 21:31

That is absolutely. I mean, we're talking what? 2020? So three years now, give or take. Yeah, three years, which is hard to believe. Right? And so I want to talk just really quick before we can maybe talk about the podcast, I want to talk a little bit about the kind of domino effect of reaching out to people, the informational interviews that I did, because that was one thing that my coach, she gave me the courage to do that with her accountability with me. And it was just like, how many people have you reached out to? And so I have some really cool individuals that I met and talked to and fell in love with, if I'm being honest with you. And I know I'm an extrovert, and I love talking to people. And but I really fell in love with, for the first time, the whole process of, like, job hunting, you could say. Because for most of my life, I've just went on Indeed, went on LinkedIn, looked for a job, applied, that sort of thing, right? And then six months later, I'm either overqualified, burned out, bored, whatever. And this particular process was a lot more enjoyable talking to people. And so, one of the things that I did, it was just like, "Okay, we're going to look for companies that do the things that you want to do." And so it goes back to Toastmasters though. So there was a woman in Toastmasters, her first name is Joyce, she's a 70-ish year old woman, she's created her own company helping baby boomers become like experts in LinkedIn, or at least create a LinkedIn profile, right? She has like 11,000 followers on LinkedIn, she's connected all over Denver, everyone knows her. And I just happen to be in the same club as her. And so it was that connection that later when I started to reach out to companies, I started to go on LinkedIn and find certain companies that did facilitation work or whatever, right, whatever the keywords that I was using. And Joyce just so happened to be connected to, like, all of them. And Joyce, I'm not joking, I was like "Joyce, hey, can you send out an introduction to this person?" And she's like, "Absolutely." And the amazing thing about Joyce is she's so good with her introductions. I mean, she'll, like, lay out personal information about me, she'll lay out personal information, like professional-ish, right, personal information about the other person. So you can kind of see of where the connection lies so that when you're ready to talk, you have some sort of connection already built. Oh, Joyce was great. And so she connected me with a woman– her first name was Francesca. And she, I guess, I think she works for or volunteers for the center of creative leadership here in Denver, which was a company that I think I was kind of eyeing and Francesca was great. So I'm struggle with impostor syndrome, just like many, many people and so when I was talking to Francesca about, she was like, "Well, what kind of facilitation experience do you have?" And I was like, oh, and I mean, Scott, I did what everyone does, which is like, "I don't really have that much. You know, I'm just like, maybe a book club here and there and maybe this and maybe that." And so she heard me, right? But at the end of the interview, she was amazing. She was like don't ever sell yourself short. Just represent your, you know, your experience. And she was really awesome to be honest with me about that and not hold back and so I was really thankful. So that interview went phenomenal and yeah, led me to another interview where one of the women, it was the next informational interview that I had where I represented myself, I was like, "This is what I do in my current career. This is what I do on the side." And I just named everything and that woman was just like, "Wow, if you ever find a facilitator position, you should absolutely put your name in the hat. And our company isn't hiring right now. But I will keep you in mind." And the cool thing is a year later, I kept that connection warm, I reached out to her. And I was just like, "Hey, I just double checking, you know, see how you're doing?" And she's like, "Absolutely, let's have coffee." And so we're actually meeting for coffee at the end of this month, just to stay connected, right. And the cool thing is like when you do these information interviews, you're not necessarily looking for a job you are, but you're not. And so it takes the pressure off. And you could just have a conversation and learn about people. And there was another woman that I had a conversation with, this was a good interview. So I kind of spoke everything, told her my whole story, right? And she said, "Hey, it sounds like you're doing a lot of really cool things. And you're doing a lot of cool little steps to get to where you are." She was like, "But don't be afraid to take that big step." And I was just like, and she even said before she said that she's like, "I'm gonna say something really bold. I hope that's okay." And I was like, please. And that's what she said. And so it's like, I felt like she could see right through me, like, I was too afraid to take that bold step. Whatever that looks like, right? Is quitting my job before I have a new job? Is that just taking a big pay cut because maybe that's what it's gonna take? I mean, it's really hard to give up the golden handcuffs that finance offers, if I'm going to be honest with you. And sometimes you do have to give those golden handcuffs up and reassess, and to get into the career that you want to be in. And that's something that I'm kind of trying to kind of settle in my mind.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:44

Well, I think that's something we've heard over the last 10 plus years now in working with people that, not just for finance, but there's a variety of industries that will say, when you're there, you become pretty accustomed to some of the financial and other perks that come along with it. And what we found is that, for some people, it's exactly right to take a pay cut. But we've also found that, in almost all cases, you don't necessarily have to, it's only that we think that we have to. And sometimes it's important too, but what we've found in just the last 10 years worth of work anecdotally is that the people that we've had the pleasure of sitting alongside and helping them make that type of change, it is less than 10% of those folks that really feel like in the end that they need to take a pay cut. And usually they have other reasons to do so other than just getting out of a particular industry. So that's my experience, which is polar opposite from the way that almost all of us think about it, usually. But here's the thing I wanted to comment on, I'll say and then ask you a question about. One, it sounds like as you went through some of those, you called them informational interviews, I would say that they're almost test driving type conversations. It sounds like you were getting a lot out of it and not just one thing. I think a lot of people hear about, we'll call them informational interviews just for the sake of this conversation, and a lot of times we associate like I needed to do that to get a job. And really those types of conversations, where we find that strangely, they're the most effective for leading towards something that is truly meaningful is exactly the opposite. It is about, "How do I uncover or explore? How do I learn or experiment with those people, the industries, the information, the things that you could learn, as opposed to how do I go and get a job?" And I find that it's a really strange correlation. The more that you go into that conversation trying to get a job, the less chance that you're actually going to come out on the other side of it with something that is a job that also satisfies your goals and what you want for work where the, instead the opposite, if you go into those conversations, doing what you did, where it's more about learning, you come out with, it sounds like you're getting feedback, you're getting reinforcement about what you're great at, you're getting validation about how you interact with other people, you're getting information about what you might enjoy, you're getting reinforcement about what to be confident in that you already bring to the table. You're getting all these things. But then ironically, I think it actually heightens your chances. I've experienced that it actually heightens your chances in leading towards something that is truly meaningful for you and also, it's what you want. What would you add to that, having gone through a variety of those experiences and spending roughly the last three years conducting continual experiments and having many of those conversations, what do you think people need to know about that, that maybe it's hard to understand?

Jill Schmieding 30:17

Well, I think you just hit the nail on the head when you said three years. And I'm not saying that it's going to take that long for everyone. But I think one thing is like, I've been in finance for 16 years, and I have technically 25 years left, right? If I work till I'm 65, give or take. And I think about that sometimes, because I'm just like, wow, 16 years, I'm old. I'm 41. And my career is over with if I leave finance, and it's like, I haven't even worked, I have 25 more years left. So yeah, it's just changing my thought process of like, I can change into a whole new industry, a whole new career, and work another 16 years and still have more time after that, right. And so it just takes time. And as much as I want it to happen tomorrow, or happened three years ago, or happened 10 years ago, when I said I was burned out for the first time, right, and ready to leave finance. As much as I wanted it to happen 10 years ago, it doesn't. And my life has gone on this amazing journey. And I wouldn't take anything back that's happened over the last 10 years, I met amazing people, I've learned, I've grown financially, secure financial stability, all that stuff. So the one thing that I would say that I think listeners probably need to hear is, it can take time, and realizing that to find an amazing career that you love may not happen overnight, it may not happen the old school way where you go on LinkedIn and you find a new job. Maybe it does work for some people like that, and I think it can, but for me, I'm willing to take the time to figure it out because 25 more years is a long time.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:50

I think that's super cool. What do you, you know, when you look back over the last three years, what has surprised you the most about getting outside your comfort zone and experimenting in small ways that have added up to large ways? What stands out to you that has surprised you?

Jill Schmieding 32:10

Oh, okay. What has surprised me with getting outside of my comfort zone? And this is no new information, right. But I feel like it's just stuff that people need to be reminded of, it's never as scary as you think it's going to be. And this is to kind of circle back to this whole podcast idea. During COVID I was walking with one of my girlfriends outside and she goes "Jill, you do the craziest things, you do the most interesting things. You should have a podcast like I want to hear about it." And I was just like, "Yeah, okay, whatever." Like that's a big deal. Like, what information do I have to put out there that anyone else isn't already putting out there? But what one thing people kept reminding me of is just like the way you deliver information is unique to you. Right? It's not that you're putting on any new information. It's just your stories. And so I was scared for years. I mean, three years, give or take, I think I waited to start my podcast. And to circle back to your question. It's never as scary as you think it's going to be. I'm doing the podcast every week, new episode. Every week isn't great. Like sometimes I put out a podcast episode I'm like "It's okay. Some weeks are amazing." But in the end, I'm doing what I want to do. I want to give women a voice. I want to share my stories. I want to get women playing big and aspiring for more. And most importantly, Scott, I take my own advice. So every single week, I'm literally talking about playing big. And guess what, every single week, it's a reminder for me to play big in my own life. And like keep searching for that job. Keep having hope. And back to what you said a minute ago. I am scared that I'm gonna have to take a big pay cut, and Denver is not cheap to live in. And so it's just like, I really want to have hope that I can find a job that pays a nice income. And it's good to be reminded of that. So thank you for saying that earlier, by the way.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:05

Absolutely. My pleasure.

Jill Schmieding 34:06

Yeah. And so, it's never as scary as you think it is. You just gotta do it, though. You have to do it. It makes you feel so alive and one of the things that my girlfriend said to me not too long ago, she was just like, the fun group that I'm in here in Denver is amazing. And she said we're all looking to try to find our truest self. We're all moving in a brave way to find our truest self. And that means getting out of your comfort zone, like by far.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:37

Hey, remember at the beginning of this episode where I told you that I would give you an update from Jill? Well, since we have this conversation, she took some pretty exciting actions, or in her own words, some really bold moves. All right, here's what she said. "Hey, HTYC team, a few updates. My last day at my finance job was August 15th so I'm officially jobless. I intentionally quit my job so I can take a sabbatical and travel. I'm flying to France soon to start the Camino de Santiago Pilgrim Walk. I'll be walking across northern Spain on the Camino Frances route. I will be going to Portugal afterwards for vacation to celebrate my accomplishment. Then I will be doing three quarters of the pilgrimage solo and tell a friend meets me around week four. So this is a huge plane big moment for me. I'm walking for many reasons, but mainly to push myself out of my comfort zone, to reset and learn more about myself and experience a different part of the world for a while. I will continue to be jobless until January 2024. When I will start my job hunt again, I'm not sure how I will feel about my career once I get back. It might be in facilitation or finance or something else. I also listened to my intuition and I put a pause on my podcast until I get back. I will record here and there once I start up again. The women with wins gatherings to celebrate unconventional wins is still going strong. And another gathering is happening this month on the 29th. I'm excited. Thanks for checking in, Jill." Pretty cool, right? That's what's going on with her. Hey, by the way, if you want to hear about another client that made big changes, here's some weird crazy linkage. Remember a minute ago when I mentioned that Jill was going to be doing the Camino de Santiago Pilgrim Walk? We actually have another client, Matt Toy, who's done that walk as well. And he wrote a book about it called "The Preparedness Guide for the Camino de Santiago", which you can find if you search on Amazon. Matt also made a huge change of his own. And you can hear his story in Episode 184, or follow the link in the show notes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:52

If you find yourself over on Amazon, or any other place where you get books, I would encourage you to check out our book: Happen To Your Career. If you're a fan of this podcast, or you love hearing the stories that we share each week and how people have made a massive career changes, I know you'll love the book, especially the audiobook. It's packed with those stories from real career changers. Some of who you've heard on the podcast, they ranged from being bored at their job to completely burned out from terrible situations all the way to great situations they just wanted to fine tune. And every single one of them shows how they took action to make huge changes just like Jill and Matt, who we just talked about. If you haven't already, go get it. You can be listening to the audiobook in just a few seconds. So press pause, go get it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:39

Here's what's coming up next week right here on Happen To Your Career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:44

Look, if your goal is to get a job, fine. Go ahead, do your informational interviews. But if you have a different goal, say to have a fulfilling career that also pays very well, well, that requires you to do things very differently.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:00

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Travis Moore 00:01

My biggest advice is to show up for yourself, know that you're worth it, and know that your value in the world is important and we need you to authentically show up as yourself in order to change the world.

Introduction 00:17

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:42

When you first begin considering a career change, it's impossible to predict all the obstacles that could get in your way. But there is one obstacle that I am 100% sure, without a doubt, will be there. What is that obstacle? Well, drumroll please. It turns out, it's you. Yep. The biggest obstacle standing in the way of your ideal career is you. Your indecision, doubts, overthinking tendencies, procrastination, comfort zone, all of it, is keeping you from what will likely be the best decision for your career and your life. You just have to get out of your own way. You might be like, "Scott, how do I know if a career change will be the right move for my career?" Well, we went to people that had already done the work to make an intentional career change, and ended up with their ideal role doing what they consider to be meaningful work that leverages their strengths. And all these people, we ask the same question over and over again. That question, what advice would you give someone who's considering making a career change but don't know if they should? I actually now ask this question to thousands of people, many of whom have worked with us to change careers. And we use all of that data, of course, to write our book– Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. But since we couldn't fit in the 1000 people in a podcast episode, what we did is, we chose seven pieces of advice from clients of ours. These are people who just like you, were unhappy or bored, or felt like they were meant for more, or had health issues that were linked to their career. So some of these people were in great situations, and it just wasn't the right fit. Other people were in pretty terrible situations. The commonality is they all found work that they felt was meaningful, and all of them made a change, starting with deciding to take action towards that meaningful work. Here's what's interesting about their advice, it's all possible. Everything is possible. None of them, zero of them, found magic beans and climbed the beanstalk to the radio careers. Everything they did to find their ideal career is attainable. You just have to get out of your own way. I want you to listen first to Maggie. Maggie's story, she started actually to get some clues that her role as a media coordinator wasn't the best fit when she realized everyone else around her was really into their work. And she was just not at that level of interest. She did a great job of digging into her strengths and identifying a role that fit her as well as her strengths, and a sense used that knowledge to continually pivot into roles that align with her ideals. Since that time, Maggie has been promoted not one, not two, not three, but four times each time into a role that fit her even better. So what advice would she give?

Maggie Romanovich 03:40

The advice that I would give that person is advice that my brilliant wise husband has given me and that is "the time is passing, whether you are participating in your life or not. So go do the thing." Even if it's just one step forward, that's one step closer than you were yesterday, even if that step doesn't work out, and it's a misstep, it's something that you can cross off your list, but the time is passing. So what are you going to do with the rest of the revolutions you have around this planet? Like, let's just keep moving forward, even if it's something small, that gives a little bit of progress, eventually, that momentum is going to pick up and it can be a little bit scary. It's like getting to the high dive and you just creep a little bit closer and you look over the edge until you finally jump in. But the time is passing anyway, to do something with it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:26

Nancy had helped to start an event management company and worked there for 20 years when she had the revelation that she was lacking autonomy in her career. Yes, this can even be the case for a co-owner of the company. She wasn't able to lead her team in the way she desired and she wasn't spending as much time with her family as she wanted and she desperately needed to change. She decided to have what she described as the most difficult conversation of her life with her CEO and fellow founder, letting them know that she was leaving the company. From there, Nancy took the time to really slow down and figure out what would make her next role, the absolute best role for her career and life. All of her hard work paid off when she found a role that not only gave her the autonomy she desired, but also checked every other box of her ideal career checklist.

Nancy 05:18

I just decided that it was time. I was just after so much angst and discomfort and unhappiness. And I think the advice is, if you're feeling that way, you know, listen to yourself. Life is short, and just listen to the voices that are speaking to you. Everything will be okay. Like, if you're a smart professional, you'll figure it out. You'll find a way to figure it out. Just don't... Life is too short to be so unhappy and to be wondering if there's something better. So I think, you know, it can be scary, but it will be okay.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:50

Erin's story starts with making several career changes. She went from owning her own cleaning company, to real estate, to working her way up the corporate ladder at Dell. She was extremely proud of her accomplishments. She was a single mom, so she had definitely felt the pressure over the years to make sure that she had an income in one way or another. Okay, interesting thing with Erin's story, she realized, somewhere along the line, that all the elements that she was missing in her work at Dell could actually be fulfilled by real estate. And that having done real estate in the past, and owning her cleaning company all those years ago, had actually been on the right track of what a fulfilling career was for her. It was just the wrong timing and it was just the wrong situation. Now, this realization actually gave her the courage to leave her corporate role, and take the leap into real estate for full time. It wasn't her first rodeo. But it definitely was the best decision she could have made for her particular career. One other interesting note about Erin is that her story really illustrates how someone's career can continue to evolve and get refined in ways that we can't always anticipate. Here's what Erin had to say when I asked her about what advice she would give.

Erin Szczerba 07:10

I would definitely say that you've got to embrace that you don't know what you don't know. And that if you're feeling at all dissatisfied with where you're at, or like maybe there's something more than you've got to go down every hallway and look in every nook and cranny to figure out what's your sweet spot, and we can get really small worlds in work, and we can have absolutely no clue what else is out there. And honestly, I mean, this is the truth. It's because I was listening to your podcast, and I just loved hearing people's stories that I realized like, there's something out there that's the perfect fit for me. I don't know what it is, and I need some help figuring it out. But I believe I'm going to find that thing that's perfect for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:11

Larry had been working in what many would call his passion for his entire career. He was a head brewer at a brewery where he got to know every aspect of beer, sounds pretty great, right? Well, it was. He loved it for many years. And then he hit a wall. And it was no longer great. And that as it turns out, it happens. It's real life. And he didn't know what his next step should be until he began doing the work to figure out what he was missing at that point in his life. Through this work, he realized he could take all of his knowledge from his years in the brewery, combine it with his love of finance and become a financial coach consulting breweries on how to be financially successful. Pretty cool, right? Here's the advice Larry gave.

Larry Chase 08:56

There's a few things that come to mind. It's one, my wife likes to say and it's, "Leap and the net will appear." Really, really difficult to do. I get that. Really, really difficult to do. Yet, if your mindset is thinking positively in that direction, it happens. I think another piece of advice is, don't wait. Because I didn't talk about how it took me, probably, took me way too long to leave that last job even though it was probably two or three years that I knew I needed to be out of there. And yeah, don't wait. It may seem really really difficult that you can't and you gotta wait this out, yet, you will feel so much better. And it's not the first time. I've left two jobs under duress. And the first time I did it, I should have done it sooner. And this last time, I should have done it sooner. So don't wait.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:58

Meet Kat. Kat had emigrated to the United States, graduated from college and years later found herself feeling stuck with no idea of how to progress her career. She'd always envision that she would find her ideal role in the corporate world, and that achievement would be the final piece of the puzzle that would make everything else in her life fall into place. Here's what she didn't realize. A service industry job that she had been working in for over a decade, just to get by, was actually checking almost all the boxes. So strangely, it turned out that the work she needed to do wasn't actually making a big change for industries or careers. Instead, it was clarifying her vision and challenging her own limiting beliefs. Kat ended up staying in the same industry, getting promoted in her restaurant role, and began teaching salsa classes on the side. Combined, these multiple opportunities gave her every single thing she defined would make up her ideal career. Pretty crazy, right? So what advice would Kat give?

Kat Bolikava 11:02

Well, the first thing I would say is that, if you don't do something differently, you won't get different results. So every time I acted on something, or attempted something, it would lend me in a slightly different position where I would see other paths for development or poor pursuits. However, because of my own limitations of my own mind, my own thinking, my upbringing, my experiences, I would end up making the same decision in how to approach those opportunities. So I think that, aside from don't be afraid to try things, because that will lead you in the new environment where you may recognize the opportunities. But if you're anything of a mindset that I had, then don't be afraid to ask for help. Because if you're thinking the same way over and over again, it doesn't matter what situations are coming at you because you won't make new decisions, because you're set in your ways of how you process things. So you need someone who will show you sometimes, gently, sometimes not so gently, but they will show you how to look at the situation from a slightly different vantage point.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:17

Okay, here's the thing. I want you to meet Travis. And Travis had been all over the map working in healthcare. Even so, he still felt like he was called to do more and kept getting very bored in every role that he held. He is a registered nurse, board certified healthcare leader, he holds a doctorate in nursing and health innovation. Yet, he still felt like he was lacking his why, and thought that if he could just figure out that one thing, then he would finally feel like he'd reached his career goal. Spoiler alert. These days, Travis finally feels at peace with where his career is. But it's not because he found that one single thing that he's going to do for the rest of his entire life. Although he did land a really awesome opportunity as the director of healthcare at Indeed.com, he also discovered that he could fill his never ending thirst for change and excitement by pursuing his interest outside of his day job and starting his own podcast and company with a friend. This gave him the best of both worlds enjoying his secure day to day job, as well as pursuing all of these other interests. Pretty cool, right? Here's the advice Travis gives.

Travis Moore 13:27

I think the best advice that I was given was, you might not be able to see the last step but can you see the next step? And taking that next step. And if you can't see the next step, then you need to do some more clarification about what you're doing right now, and the direction you're headed, and what's important to you. And you have to believe that the step after that will appear. And it's something that you have to commit to yourself and realize that you are the only you in this world. And you're the only one that has a certain set of experiences, and education, and spirit that you have, and you're the only one that can deliver the impact that you're meant to deliver in this world. And if you don't show up, the world isn't a brighter place. And you have to show up in order to make that happen. And once you know your value and know that you are important and that you matter, and that the world is waiting for you to show up, it creates this new level of almost camaraderie with the world or like the sense of purpose or it's motivating. It's like oh my gosh, then I get excited around, "what is that?" The journey and the excitement of discovery and figuring out what it is that I'm going to do and what's the impact that I'm going to make and how can I change somebody's life today is kind of a motivating thing that really inspires me and when I'm having these days where I'm like, "Oh my God, I don't want to show up. I don't want to get up. I don't want to be involved." It gives you this new breath of fresh air and a little wind under your wings as it were to be able to get up and show up. So I think that my biggest advice is to show up for yourself, know that you're worth it and know that your value in the world is important, and we need you to authentically show up as yourself in order to change the world. Look for the next step, and beyond that, don't worry about it, take the next step.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:23

Aaron had originally went to school to become an attorney, got his JD, and then promptly went into construction management when he thought that lodgest was not going to be in the cards for him. Well, after being in construction management for years, in fact, over a decade, he was miserable, he was beyond miserable, he began contemplating some pretty scary things, if it meant he could just get out of work. And to make things worse, this wasn't any old job where he felt like he could quit. It was his family's business. Aaron decided that it was time to take agency over his career for the first time in his life. He worked up the courage to talk to his boss, aka dad, about leaving the company and began pursuing a career in a totally different industry. In this case, law. Really interesting note about Aaron's situation too is that he actually combined together all of the knowledge that he had accumulated in construction management, and leveraged it going into law to find a role that really was an amazing fit for him. After doing that, what advice would he give? Here you go.

Aaron Bartelt 16:30

Well, one is baby steps, right? Like, it starts very small. So you don't have to continue being a version of you that you don't like, I mean, it changes, and it's gradual. But even a month later, you look back, it's like, "wow, I'm different." And it's easy to look at all the things that need to change in order for me to feel like I have my life in order, or feel like I'm satisfied with my career, my family, my house, whatever it is. But those are always going to stay the same unless you do something about it. And it can be 20 minutes, you know, prove yourself that you can do something that scares you, or, I don't know, because you can. You absolutely can do the thing that you're afraid of, and consequences of doing something and failing are, where you're at. And if you're unhappy with that, try. But that is the kernel of it for me is that all of the stories that you're telling yourself about what can go wrong if you do something, in all likelihood, the worst case is where you're at.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:48

Okay, this episode was chock full of advice from people that have been there, done that, got the t-shirt, and includes many factors that you might not have thought would be incredibly important. The type of unconventional advice that you heard is what I've included in our book. And in fact, it's what led me to write the book: Happen To Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. Which you can find on Amazon or any other major book reseller. Or you can get the audiobook on Audible. If you love this episode, then I would encourage you to do that. It will give you even more information on all the things that you didn't know that are going to be critical for your career change so that you can kick-start your journey. Okay, here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week, right here on Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 8 18:38

And she said, "Hey, it sounds like you're doing a lot of really cool things. And you're doing a lot of cool, like, little steps to get to where you are." She was like, "But don't be afraid to take that big step."

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:51

This probably won't entirely come as a surprise to you. But we've found that when you start doing the work to make a big change, like, specifically a career change, those big moves bleed into every other area of your life. And if this is not your first episode of the podcast, you've probably heard this many times before when we talk about people who have made the changes in their work, and it influences them to play big in the rest of their life. Like in Episode 483, where Kate Gleason Bachman pivoted out of her lifelong career as a nurse and then went on to complete her first ultra-marathon, not just a regular marathon, but ultra-marathon. Pretty cool, right? Another client used career experiments to connect to people and then those people changed her life.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:39

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Nancy 00:01

The whole circle of things is just fascinating that I have ended up where I have. It just blows my mind and never would have thought that I was going to find somebody that was so in tune with what I was looking for when I started the journey.

Introduction 00:14

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:44

Asking for what you want seems so simple on the surface, but it's not always easy to put into action. So much gets in the way of actually having the productive conversations that could bring you more enjoyment and further your career at the same time. Until you push yourself to have those conversations, you won't know if you can get an extra week of vacation or a four day work week or whatever it is that would make your work more fulfilling. As my good friend Kwame Christian puts it, "the best things in life are on the other side of difficult conversations."

Nancy 01:16

What's the worst that's gonna happen? The answer is 'no' then you've discovered the answer to your question, and then it's time to move on. And it was truly something that's a non-negotiable, something that you need for your fulfillment.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:26

That's Nancy. And this episode is actually part of a two-part series. So if you haven't already listened to Nancy's first episode, I would encourage you to go back and listen to that episode about flexibility, and where I actually coach her through how to decide between two pretty amazing opportunities. It's a very, very unique episode. That's episode 532. Should be right before this on your podcast player. But when we last talked to Nancy, she had stepped away from a company she had co-founded and worked at for over 20 years to explore what a fulfilling next chapter of her career could look like. She had given herself time to slow down during the career change process and really focus on getting more of the right things and continuing to hone in on what was actually an amazing opportunity for her. She found herself with a few options on the table, she was having a hard time deciding which would bring her the most fulfillment. But after our conversation, Nancy spent a few months continuing to do that hard work. She had even more difficult conversations with the organizations wanting to hire her. Now, that's led her to end up in her ideal role, getting so much more of what she wants out of her career. And the reason we had her back on as she is going to share the detail of how she asked for what she wanted, and how she created this ideal role for herself. Here's Nancy summarizing where she was in her career change journey during our last conversation.

Nancy 02:52

Yeah, so when we last chatted, I think there was a lot more uncertainty and doubt about where I was headed, or where I could potentially had in the current situation that I was in working with the new business owners that I had talked about. So I think that I was kind of trying to kind of make, like, a patchwork of things work, because I honestly just didn't have the honest and open conversation with him about what I needed in order to determine whether or not what I needed is something that he would be open to. So when we left, there was those questions that I needed to go back and get answered. And actually, I had a conversation with him yesterday, which he put it really well. And he wasn't talking about me, he was talking about somebody else. But I was thinking about it in terms of my own situation with him. He was talking about having a conversation with one of the employees of one of his businesses about potentially coming into a different role. And the way he put it was something to the effect of I can't imagine that anything that was under her umbrella would be larger than anything that I have under my umbrella. So basically, I think it made me change the way I was thinking about it, because I just assumed that what I needed was going to be outside of his umbrella, right? And not something he'd be comfortable with accepting. But having had the conversation with him really clarified a lot of things and made me feel much more confident about joining him in this team full time.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:16

And you had really been balancing a couple of different opportunities. Maybe balancing isn't quite the right word. But you had been participating in two separate opportunities that you were, I don't know if testing was the word that you use, but it's definitely what it made me think of when we were talking at the time were like, "Hey, this could be a great fit for me, or this could be a great fit for me and I want to explore both of them.” And also I want to continue to have a level of flexibility that you had been, I think, missing for a period of time.

Nancy 04:46

Right. Yeah, it was basically, I'm doing some contract work for this one business owner, helping him kind of in a part time COO role, if you will, and then also working with another company where their whole model is just contractors. And that was more closely aligned to the previous type of work I had been doing. And I was pretty much thinking that where I would be going was just to continue with those kind of two contract roles and balancing those which, as I had worked through it, and been doing that for a period of weeks, it was really stressful. I had likened it to one of my friends as feeling like Mrs. Doubtfire where he's in the restaurant, and he keeps changing identities, and he kind of forgets who he is part of the time because it was like, I'm in like multiple email accounts, like responding to different clients. And I think it was at the early stages of this new type of work where you're a contractor and trying to please multiple people at the same time. But it was just really overwhelming. I mean, I think, if I had given it more time, I probably could have figured it out. But it was very stressful. And it didn't feel like it was the right way to continue working. And especially for the type of person that I am, I'm much more mile deep than mile wide, I like to get really get to know people. And I feel like I can make more of a difference if I have a deep and thorough understanding of the business and of the challenges and really get integrated with the team and being a contractor for companies that don't really feel like you necessarily can get there. And for me, making that type of contribution wouldn't have been as obvious or as realistic in that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:23

Yeah, that makes sense. That makes a ton of sense. And I think what's really cool is that it sounds like ended up being really valuable input or information coming out of that experiences, even though it sounds like a period of time of it was stressful and overwhelming. That stress and overwhelming was a set of inputs that allowed you to decide what the next step might be too. Is that accurate?

Nancy 06:45

It definitely is. Yeah. That kind of experimental phase, it uncovered those challenges, and that desire that I hadn't really uncovered previously about wanting to be more deeply entrenched into an organization than just a contractor. But then also, the type of work that I was doing in that secondary role was, like I said, it was much more closely aligned to my prior work experience. And it was just easy, like, it's just really easy for me to do. And I had that conversation with myself about do I want something that's just easy and not very challenging? Or do I want something that is going to completely out of my past work experience, from an industry perspective and really get to learn and grow and do a lot of new things? So I think that was definitely where my inclination has led me towards. One of the reasons that I left was I needed a challenge. I wanted to do something different. I wanted to learn and grow and develop and try new things. We had talked, I think, before I had mentioned Michelle Obama's book 'Becoming' and it's about like, you have just one thing your whole life, you're always evolving and growing and learning. And that was definitely part of the journey for me is realizing that I could take this job, and it would be pretty easy, but not necessarily really fulfilling and challenging. And so decided to kind of push that one to the side and go all in on the one that's going to keep me on my toes. And I just got off a call with part of the team on it. And certainly they're keeping me on my toes because I have my work cut out for me, but it feels good. It feels like they need me a lot.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:22

What do you feel like, or what would be an example where it's being reinforced that "yes, this is the right set of challenges for me right now"?

Nancy 08:33

Well, I think that part of it is the business owner himself in some of his philosophies, really aligned with where I've been really kind of my whole life, but I have kind of kept it caged in like his philosophy of more autonomy, and less kind of top down management, letting teams kind of form their own leadership and hold themselves accountable, rather than having one boss that's like dictating all of the actions. And I've long felt the need to help people and or let people develop and learn from their mistakes rather than the boss telling them this isn't the right way. This is how you should do things. And just that was the environment I was in for many, many years. And it was never truly comfortable for me. So I think just knowing the philosophy and feeling like it's kind of where I always wanted to be, but I never had realized that as explicitly as I am now that had been exposed to it. I didn't really think I guess that it existed was this type of management style. That's just a lot more hands off than what I've been dealing with.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:36

That's a really cool and it sounds like as a byproduct of that too. One of the things that you had mentioned to me last time we chatted that you really really wanted to have as a portion of your career is the ability to just decide on a afternoon or on the day that, "Hey, I'm gonna go do this today" or "I'm going to the lake today", I think is what you had told me earlier. And it sounds like you get to do some of that now. And that's actually happened. So fast forwarding a little bit here, what does it feel like to have that come true? Like identifying that that's the thing that you want in advance, and then sort of have that become a portion of your reality? What's that like?

Nancy 10:22

Well, it's super exciting. Like I said, I didn't really know that that was going to be an option. I didn't know that it was a realistic idea, working full time for a company that, you know, have that type of flexibility. And I definitely have had an opportunity, in so many ways, one of which is going to the beach, just because it's a gorgeous day out, and it's summertime. And it's a great opportunity to enjoy the environment where I live and the atmosphere that I'm lucky enough to find myself in. I just feel really lucky that I have been on this journey, and really took the time to stop and figure out what was important to me. And then to go out and discover that it was actually possible to find something that would work in that way.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:05

Compared to three and a half months ago, when we chatted last, when you had done a ton of work at that point, identifying what created potential great fits, and you were, as we called it, actively exploring to different avenues of that. But when you were in that portion, compared to now, what have been your biggest surprises or learnings?

Nancy 11:32

Well, after you and I spoke, I took the opportunity to go back and have a conversation with the business owner that I've been working with to really clarify what I was looking for. Because I think at the time when I had, prior to our last conversation, I had indicated to him that my plan was to stay as a contract employee and kind of continue with the type of engagement that we had. And I think his words were well, "if that's what you want." And I was like, okay, well, that's clearly not what he wants. That's his reaction. So as a follow up conversation to that, I wanted to explain to him why that was what I wanted, quote unquote. And it was about that freedom and flexibility and having the ability to be there for my kids, you know, as they're entering their final years of high school and just have more flexibility to do the things that are important to me and my life. And so between that and then the compensation that I feel like I need in order to feel fulfilled in the role as well, having explained those things to him, I think his response was oh, like, "what about me would make you think that that wasn't an option?" And as I reflected on them, I was like, well, yeah, I guess you're right, because he's pretty flexible. He's a very unique individual. And as I'm working with him and starting to help him like lead the different managers of his businesses, I guess I have come to the realization that he's absolutely not somebody who's demanding that I'm in my chair from nine to five and not demanding that I check off all of these boxes, that this are his requirements for the work to be performed for any particular period of time. So I think it was just realizing that I needed to have that conversation and not being afraid to put out there what I was looking for. What you helped me realize that that was something I hadn't done, and I would just kind of jumping to conclusions or assuming that what I wanted wasn't possible. And so I had that conversation. And I think certainly have, I feel good about the conversation and where it went with him. And then some of the subsequent interactions that I've had with him, you know, I mentioned to you earlier, I was at a writing competition with my daughter, and there was some last minute unexpected issues in the business that came up while I was away. And he said, before the conversation started, he's like, "Well, let me just stop you and ask you, what are you going to be doing so that you're not talking to me at 11 o'clock when you said that you need to be with your daughter?" And I was like holy cow, like, thank you so much for asking me that question. I'm like, I'm so appreciative that you actually even care and are thinking about that, because it just feels really good and exactly what I was looking for.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:03

That is really, really cool. Also, it occurs to me that asking for what you want is something that is easy to say, to do. But as a human, so many things get in the way of actually doing it. So kudos to you for working through those things, and then actually doing it and now you're experiencing the byproducts of having those potentially difficult or productive, wonderful conversations because it's led to new ground for you and new learnings for you. And certainly benefits for you too. I'm curious, what allowed you to make that happen? What did that look like actually working through it? Was it just as simple as, like, "Oh, I'm gonna have the conversation" and then wait and have the conversation and then boom, it was done? Or was there more to it than that? Tell me a little bit about how that played out in reality.

Nancy 15:00

I think there probably was a little bit of hesitation or doubts or that I might have had going into it. But I think you and I had the conversation about, well, I don't know how you put it exactly, but you've definitely encouraged me that it would be a good idea to go and have that conversation and really lay out what it is that I was looking for, what would make an ideal match for me. And then, after our conversation, as I reflected on it, it became really obvious to me that I should have done that or should be doing that based upon the whole coaching and program that you've developed. It's part of the steps, right, that you would design for anybody that was, you know, trying to find the right match for them. So I don't know why it kind of got lost for me, maybe it was just because it was uncomfortable to ask for what I truly wanted. But the conversation itself was, it was great. I mean, there was once I decided and committed to doing it and put it on the calendar and made it clear that you know, what my intentions for the conversation were, it's like, there's no turning back. Right? And of course, it was fine. I mean, what was he going to do, he wasn't gonna bite my head off. He's a very kind individual, and I think probably really appreciated the fact that I was open and honest about what my needs and expectations are. So that hopefully he has a better understanding too of where I'm coming from. And in retrospect, I think he's also, I think, it's been a month or so after that conversation, he provided me with a book that he had read, I don't know how many years ago, but it was all about inventing new types of organizations that are more, you know, that self management where you don't have that top down leadership, and I'm about, not quite halfway through it, but it's like, t"his is exactly what I was looking for." And I didn't know that I wanted that autonomy, and that the kindness, the businesses that are in it for, not just for profit but for people, and for other causes that are meaningful to people and finding out from those people what is meaningful to them, so that they can, you know, help them find and achieve those things in their life. So it just, like the whole circle of things is just fascinating that I have ended up where I have. It just blows my mind and never would have thought that I was going to find somebody that was so in tune with what I was looking for when I started the journey.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:15

I think why is perpetual, I used the word fascinating a moment ago, and I would definitely apply it to this too. What's fascinating to me, after getting to hear stories like yours, and work with people, our team, we get to work with amazing people like you all the time. And still, it's perpetually fascinating and even fulfilling to me that what has to happen in order to result in this type of situation where you, as you said a moment ago, I found the thing that I wasn't even totally aware that I was looking for. And when we start to break apart, like how does somebody actually do that? How do you create that over and over and over again? We find that is no small amount of work, like all the work that you did early on to be able to chip away and identify very slowly the parts and the pieces that you suspected that you wanted, and then get little bits of feedback here and there and continue to test and all the things, all of those add up to being able to recognize an opportunity when it's right in front of you. And I think that's something that is so undervalued. Because we assume, as humans, that we're going to know what we want, first of all, and then we're going to automatically recognize it when it's in front of us. And what I find that in reality is that the way that our minds work, as humans, is very much the opposite. And less we've done that initial deep work to identify what it is that we want, then all those opportunities, which are right in front of us, just slip right by.

Nancy 18:53

Right. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And I remember, you know, when I started out, before I'd even engaged with a coach who was like just reading through some of the materials and the worksheets and such and thinking like, "I don't know what I want, like, how do I know what I want? I've been doing this for 20 years, like, I don't even know what's out there." You know, do I want to stay in the events business, or do I want to, maybe, I mean, there was a time where I was contemplating not being in that type of role as well, and just going into nonprofits and such. But I think part of it was just I hadn't had that a lot of that experience in other types of industries or with other people, right, having worked under the same person for so long. I think part of the piece of the puzzle that really helped me was the StrengthsFinder is kind of like having that validate some of the things that I suspected about myself that, you know, I enjoy and that I'm good at doing and having that as a guide to really, again, reinforce, "Oh, yeah, that is why I'm good at this and that's why I enjoy this type of work." And but I think in terms of, some of the types of industries that I was interested in, that was another part of the puzzle was like, "I don't know what I want to do. I'm not sure if I want to stick with, you know, in this industry or try a different one. And if it's a different one, what is it going to be?" I'm typically a very flexible person, I think it can be a good thing or a bad thing. Because a lot of times, like, I'll just make it work, it doesn't matter what it is like, it's a bad situation, but I'm going to make it work, right. And so it's a good way to be, however, you're not necessarily always going to find the right thing for you if you're just like, "Oh, that's fine. I'll just figure it out. I'll make it work." Right? Instead of actually going for the thing that would make you supremely happy.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:29

I think that's really interesting, too, that in itself, your last comment, I don't know what you call that in relation to your strengths. But I would probably call that some measure of adaptability is something that you've been pretty amazing at. And that's probably rooted from your strengths. And the potential negative byproduct of adaptability, as you had mentioned, is like, I'll just go with it even if it's a terrible situation and figure it out. And well, that has served you well, you've probably performed well in your career at various different times by just digging in. And it's like, we're just gonna figure this out. It's not a great situation. And we're just got to figure it out. And when it comes to yourself and what you want, that can show up really negatively, and that's what I hear you saying. Is that kind of what you mean?

Nancy 21:16

For sure. Yeah, I think so. Like I said, it's a good thing and it's a bad thing. It served me well. And it's probably kept me in the role that I was in for probably too long, because I was just like, "Oh, well, I'm here, and I'm going to stick it out when I get work." Because that's what people do, right? I'm not a quitter. Not a quitter.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:33

Not a quitter. I think a really fun thing that, as we've gotten to chat, that I've started to see is, it seems like at least from outside looking in, you're starting to harness that strength in a very different way and work with it rather than having it work against you, in an unaware state. And I think that that's been really fun to be able to see.

Nancy 21:58

Yeah. Those StrengthsFinder reports having that clarity, because it's like, I think I'm good at this, I think I like doing it. And then to have that as that reinforcement. And then you know, as you say, is like looking at the dark side of those strengths too, to make sure that we're keeping those in mind and not letting them undermine the good part of what we do.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:18

It also begs another question for me, which is, now that you have done some additional experimentation, and now that you've had some conversations, and to be able to ask for what you want. And it appears that you're getting much more of what you want, at least in this stage of life. Yes, it will continue to evolve. Yes, it will continue to change as happens in life. But as you're there in this moment, what advice would you have for other people that are wanting to identify more of what they want? Wanting to become more self aware in that way, what they want and need? And then also, for people who want to do more asking for what they want. Let's handle those separately here. So what advice would you give to somebody who wants to identify more of what they want and need?

Nancy 23:09

Well, I mean, I couldn't have done it without your process. I don't want to plug it too hard. But I mean, I absolutely wouldn't have happened for me if I hadn't had come across, I think, I told you last time I was on the train going into my new office at my old job and I like Googled or whatever searched in my podcast, career change. And from the first moment I heard it, I was just like, "Oh my god, this content was made for me. This is exactly what I needed." So I think that just digging into all of your resources, I know that I started out looking at a lot of the free stuff that you had, which was extremely helpful. And I was floored by how much free content you had, that it was just so helpful. But even, you know, the investment that I made in the coach, that I spent a ton of money on my kids, but not very much on myself. And it was probably one of the best investments I've ever made– was working with your team because you really kind of walked me through all of those steps. And it was scary. And I didn't necessarily have 100% support behind me personally to go ahead and make that leap. But I just decided that it was time. I was just after so much angst and discomfort and unhappiness. And I think the advice is if you're feeling that way, you know, listen to yourself, life is short, and just listen to the voices that are speaking to you. Everything will be okay. Like if you're a smart professional, you'll figure it out. You'll find a way to figure it out. Life is too short to be so unhappy and to be wondering if there's something that are... So I think it can be scary, but it will be okay.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:41

I love that advice. And it seems like it is, oh well, it's what we mentioned earlier when we were talking about how to... It seems like it should be simple for us to ask for what we want, and it's not always simple in so many different ways. And it's also not always simple to listen to those voices as you're talking about what we know we want and need. So I appreciate that.

Nancy 25:07

Yeah, absolutely. You know, it took me a long time. I think I was building a little voice inside my head for a long time for probably since 2018, or 2019. And I didn't make the change until last year, so.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:20

Well, that was really cool. So then the second part of my question to you about, what advice would you give to somebody who wants to begin asking for more of what they want and need? Because as we just said, like, that can be a whole separate thing, whole separate set of skills and challenges and myself. What do you think?

Nancy 25:39

Oh, I think that not being afraid to ask for it. And I think that if you come across a negative response to what you're asking for, then perhaps it's not the right situation, right? It's like, if somebody's overreacting, or over just a flat out no, then, if that's what you decided you wanted and you needed, then what's the worst that's gonna happen? The answer's 'no', then you've discovered the answer to your question, and then it's time to move on. Perhaps if it's truly something that's, you know, a non negotiable, something that you need for your fulfillment. So I think it can be uncomfortable and kind of scary, but how else are you going to come to what you need.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:14

How also you would know? Like, that's such a great point.

Nancy 26:17

You're gonna wait it out. You're gonna wait it out and just try it and see what happens. I mean, again, life's too short for that, in my opinion.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:24

That is fantastic advice. And the logic behind that is so simple and so empowering. Like, well, yes, I could wait and I could wander in misery potentially. Or I could just ask, and then, if the answer is no, or if it becomes apparent that that's not a fit, then better to know now, right?

Nancy 26:49

For sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:49

Very cool. Anything else that we didn't talk about?

Nancy 26:53

I guess the only thing that, you know, what was it that I was looking for, was that autonomy, right? And once you get it, and in my case, I have it in spades, is then it's a whole another level of professional development. It's like, "Alright, well, now I have to keep myself accountable." Because I don't have that big bad boss above my head demanding all the things all the time. So I have to put in some self discipline and structure to keep myself accountable and to make sure that I'm not just going to the beach five days a week, because I can because nobody's watching, right? It was really thinking through how to be most effective in that autonomous role, but while also enjoying the freedoms and the flexibility that I now have in this role.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:33

Yeah. And that's really true. I don't know that we've talked about that on the podcast in the past. But to your point, we've talked about that a lot internally, because we've seen that in our organization when people come into our organization, sometimes they struggle for that exact reason. That it's not just you, amazingly, performed well in autonomy, it is that there are skill sets and layers of skills that often can go along with that. So my question then to you becomes, what are the areas that have been the biggest challenges for you? Or where have you seen skill development for yourself, along with the new autonomy in order to harness it?

Nancy 28:14

Yeah, I think that to be truthful, I'm still somewhat figuring it out. Because in the role that I'm in right now, managing multiple different businesses, and each of those businesses is on a different kind of level of where they need support. One of them, you know, I could be working in that business at that business every single day. And it would take a long time before they're, you know, fully functioning and highly productive. And then there's others that are doing pretty well for themselves. And then there are some that are just kind of getting started. So I could have my calendar full 60-80 hours a week, if I, you know, fell into that trap of like, I need to make progress. I need to do things. I need to make sure that I'm doing a great job. And then I'm moving these businesses forward, which is certainly what I want, but it's also going to kill me, right, if I do it that way. So it's taking a step back and really trying to prioritize my workflow and prioritize all of the different things that need my attention, while also keeping in mind, okay, the reason why I made this change was so that I could just be a happier person have more of that thinking time and reflecting time. So I think that staying true to a calendar and really thinking about how I'm going to be spending my time throughout the week and making sure that I'm not scheduled up every minute of every day is part of what I'm implementing. But it's you know, it's going to be more than just that. I think that relying and leaning on other types of professional development to help me really harness and harness the autonomy and the autonomous management style, so that I'm fully effective. It's still a work in progress.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:48

I think that's one observation that I've seen that has a tendency to go hand in hand with more autonomy often requires more ownership as well, in my experience. And a part of that, that I think has not, has been challenging based on how we do work at many other organizations around the world is, a lot of times the organization drives the development where when you get into more autonomy, something that a lot of people don't seem to expect, in my experience, is that you also own more of your development, your own development too, which that in itself can be very different, but also very challenging in its own right. I personally love it, and I thrive in it. But I've also seen many, many people, including myself, struggle making the switch.

Nancy 30:40

Right. Yeah, I mean, it's really exciting to me to be able to, as you say, kind of curate my own professional development based upon the needs that I have. And that's absolutely, I mean, that's again, another part of this new scenario that is really exciting to me is that this business leader, like, one of his main things– learning, growing, and developing– it's like, he's not afraid to invest in people. And whether it's in a different educational courses or just coaching or whatever it is, he's pushing that out to his team on an ongoing basis. So it's exciting to be able to be in a position where I feel like it's not just something that he wants, it's something that he expects, and that everybody on the team is going to be engaged in that kind of constant development and growth, which is really what I was part of what I really wanted.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:33

Hey, if you love this story where we talk through and walk you through step by step how someone got to more meaningful work, then you'll absolutely love our audiobook– Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. I even got to narrate it, which was so fun, and something that I really enjoy doing and will definitely do for future books as well. But it also contains firsthand accounts from career changers on how they made the move to more meaningful work. Just like we include on the podcast here and actually has been called the best audio book experience ever by some reviewers. You can find those reviews and the book itself on Audible, Amazon or any other place where books are sold. Seriously, just pause this right now and go over to Amazon or Audible or wherever you want and download it. You can be reading it and started on your career change in literally seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:28

Now, here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week, right here on Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 3 32:33

So there I was. Three years out from being shiny and new and feeling like I was ready to tackle the world and conquer the world, feeling completely and utterly burnt out and sick and tired of trying to save the country.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:49

You've probably heard the oxygen mask theory before. It goes like this. If you're in the unfortunate position of being on a plane, which is about to nosedive, you should secure your oxygen mask before helping anyone else. If you don't, you risk not being able to help anyone at all. And as it turns out, this is a great analogy for avoiding or overcoming burnout. Focusing inward allows you to take stock of what is within your control. And by doing so, you can serve all roles in your life better and inspire those around you to follow suit. Today, my guest is here to talk about all things burnout, and how to finally start taking control of your career and your life.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:30

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.