Scott Anthony Barlow 00:01

In 2020, I was in San Diego with my wife, Alyssa. We were celebrating 21 years together. We had a few hours before heading to the airport and flying home to our three kids, so we met up with Michael, the former client at a diner overlooking Pacific Beach. This meet-up took place only a few months after Michael had accepted a new role as an independent mortgage broker. A completely different career from the one where he had struggled, and one Michael had never imagined he would land in.

Introduction 00:34

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:54

I have a confession to make. I love watching previews. Half of you are probably going to be like, "Oh my goodness, how could you?" I will actually sit down often to watch an episode of Netflix and find that instead of actually watching an episode. I will just cycle through 15 trailers, and that'll be it. That'll be it. That'll be all to watch. And then we'll be done. I'll never actually watch. I'll never go back and watch the actual episodes or the movies themselves. And I have many friends that are like, "Oh my goodness, how could you? Like that doesn't even, you know, that doesn't even the good part." But I kind of love it. And in the spirit of trailers and previews, I wanted to give you a preview of my new book, it's called "Happen To Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work". And I thought that the very best way to deliver it to you was hop on today's episode and read the first chapter. I'm super excited you're hearing this before anybody else is. The audiobook isn't going to come out for a little while. Our actual publication date for the book itself is October 18th. But guess what? It's actually available for pre-sale right now. So if you love this, then you can actually go and preorder the book. Not only will it help many other people find the book, because places like Amazon, move books up in the rankings based on how many are sold or pre-sold. But also, maybe more importantly, it'll help you figure out a very different way to approach this process– that is a career change in finding and doing much more meaningful work. This book takes all of the best teachings that you've heard casually mentioned on the podcast, and it organizes them into one super helpful career change tool. You'll read about the countless ways professionals have found their way to thriving in their careers, and what that's looked like for them. Most importantly, you'll learn that it's possible to have a career you're enamored with, that's good for you, it's good for your family, your bank account, even your long term health. Without further ado, here's the first chapter of my new book "Happen To Your Career". I really hope you enjoy it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:11

Chapter one. Why you must change? In 2020, I was in San Diego with my wife, Alyssa. We were celebrating 21 years together. We had a few hours before heading to the airport and flying home to our three kids, so we met up with Michael, the former client at a diner overlooking Pacific Beach. He had spent that morning photographing the ocean. This meetup took place only a few months after Michael had accepted a new role as an independent mortgage broker. A completely different career from the one where he had struggled, and one Michael had never imagined he would land in. But he was deliriously happy, smiling, and telling me and Alyssa just how much better his life was than it had been in years. He told us, "I still have trouble accepting that work can be enjoyable or even fun", he said. But he was learning. He genuinely enjoyed the work and his coworkers. He loved the organization. He was using his strengths, learning new skills, making good money, the new role truly fit him and he was thriving. This was the happy end of his career change. But a few years previously, Michael wasn't thriving. He was dying. Michael had ascended the corporate ladder and a major movie studio unimpeded for 18 years. He started in 2001 as a senior financial analyst, and by 2012 he was a vice president. His last role was VP of worldwide distribution finance. Sounds like an important job, right? Well, it was. Michael managed the financial projections for billions of dollars as well as a large global team. But something was drastically wrong. In this past year, Michael had lost 20 pounds. He couldn't sleep. He couldn't exercise. He left work regularly past 11pm and spent many weekends at home alone trying to catch up with work, or paralyzed by anxiety. Medically, there was nothing wrong with him. He didn't have cancer or a tapeworm or a mental illness. What he had was a job in finance at a large entertainment company in Los Angeles, and it was killing him. Michael had always loved working at the studio. He loved movies, was well paid, was challenged by his projects and his responsibilities. He frequently met with the most senior executives at the studio and traveled to Europe many times for projects. It was exciting, and prestigious, especially in LA. Try telling someone in LA that you're a doctor or lawyer. Oh, that's nice. But now tell them that you work for a major film studio, "Ooh, I want to take you to brunch." Michael had gotten himself in a job in the entertainment industry, almost on a whim, and he had never left. But honestly, he didn't care that much about the studio aura. He just loved accounting and finance. He enjoyed the feeling of harmony he got from putting things in order, keeping things in balance, like, a Zen rock garden, but with numbers instead of rocks. His promotions have left him a huge amount of responsibility. And although this wasn't new for him, lately, something was drastically different. His recent promotion no longer felt like as in rock garden. Now it was distressingly the opposite. It was more like huge, smoldering meteors falling out of the sky threatening to crush you, your dog, your car, and everyone you care about. Every new film or television show, or limited series or digital shore is an entirely new product with its own unit economics. The movie production process may go wildly over budget, or the movie may come out, but no one wants to see it. And when that happens, look out, the accounting department and people like Michael can basically give up on the idea of leaving the office for the next month. The entire year's plans, projections and estimates are out the window and must be completely revised. After years of this, Michael was exhausted. In other words, what was once a great career for him, had been turned upside down and replaced with the most misaligned situation imaginable. But that's not when he left the company. He waited around for another three years, you might ask yourself, "why did he stay? Couldn't he see what was at stake? Why didn't he want to change?" I will tell you so many reasons. Michael still felt a sense of responsibility to his team. He wanted to see them advance. He also felt a sense of responsibility to the studio. He didn't think anyone else could do his job, or certainly not as well as he did it. Finally, he was sure that things would get better. They had to. Because after so many years, Michael couldn't conceive of another job. Everything outside the studio seemed like darkness, "pull yourself together!", he told himself. He was lucky to have a high paying job at a major film studio. Thousands of people would love to have his job, who is he to complain? Work is supposed to be hard, right? That's why they call it work. Many of us accept a certain definition of what work is in our society, we believe that we're conflicts with everything else we might want in life, so much so that almost nobody in the world has worked they love, that pays well and is meaningful. Somehow, we're okay with this. We even accept it as normal. And then we beat ourselves up for wanting something different. Unfortunately, few people ask, "why does it still has to be this way?" Given the recent changes in the work world. Instead of asking, "What do I want and need from work?" The question we're asking is, "what is the best situation I believe I can get?" Those two are very different. That's why this audiobook and book is about answering the singular question that has fascinated me since 2005. How do certain people create careers they love, but not at the expense of the rest of their life? I wanted to learn about those people who love their work and enjoy their life and get well compensated on top of it. Not the people who excel in their career, but are absentee parents and not the people who sacrifice all of their relationships to be better at their craft. But the people who define success on their own terms, those who know what they want, those who find a way against all impossibilities to make it happen by prioritizing the needs of work and life in a healthy way. I wanted to understand, what is this specific group of people doing differently than the rest of the world? By the way, I call these people happy high achievers. I first began studying this group of high performing people in 2006 for my own self interest. I continued to study them later when I started my company, Happen To Your Career. This audiobook will reveal how high performers that is hardworking, intelligent, successful, and real people change their careers to become happy high achievers. It will outline the misconceptions that can keep you stuck in roles and organizations that don't fit. It will help you identify your key strengths and find a role that allows you to use your strengths, so that you can feel more fulfilled in your work. To do that, I'm going to explore the science behind the entire process of career change, and help offer you tactics that you can use in your own journey. I will also share some success stories that will illustrate how people really do happen to your career. By the way, not in the book, but since you listen to the podcast, you've heard some of those stories. In fact, most of our podcasts is really about those stories. And part of the reason why we showcase those stories, is because it gives people hope, and it gives people an idea of how it might work in their world, even though everyone's situation is very different, is really important to know that this isn't a step by step guide, because everyone's situation is so different. At the same time, it's important to see what other people have done because you can pull parts and pieces into your own journey. One of the biggest challenges we've observed at HTYC, is that the process of career change does not consist of the same set of steps for everyone. Over the years, we've noticed that people who do get to do work that matters to them, work that fits their strengths and allows them to experience growth in ways that feel fulfilling, well, those people are doing things differently even unconventionally. What does this mean? It's if you ever see a step by step guide that promises a solution to every one of your meaningful work problems, rest assured it's incomplete at best. And of course, at worst. Normal work is no longer working. In a world where only 4% of people have what Gallup would call of "great jobs", and even fewer people think that their work is meaningful and fulfilling. I believe work can be so much more for so many people, it must be so much more. Because what you do for a living is inextricably linked to your relationships, your finances, your time, your demeanor, and the energy with which you interact with your family. This book is all about how high achievers find meaningful well paid work without starting over. Specifically, what do these individuals do to make career changes? And what are they doing differently than the rest of us who are tolerating normal that is good enough or even not so great work, or many of us who struggle seem to go unnoticed? Case in point, Michael, who we mentioned earlier, was clearly unwell. But no one seemed to notice. Maybe his colleagues were too busy trying to manage their own stress. Or maybe they just didn't care. As Michael withered away out of sheer misery, no one asked him that simple question, "Are you okay?" Instead, they continue to pile on new responsibilities. Now let's step back and think about the absurdity of that situation. What was Michael thinking? Staying in a job that was killing him? Sure. He liked accounting, and he liked the entertainment business, but he'd never joined the company expecting to stay there for his entire career, much less die there as a martyr for studio accounting. And what do you think about a place where an 18 year employee, a senior executive exhibits symptoms of a serious illness and no one notices or cares? How do you watch a 40 something man of average height and weight, lose 20 pounds and not think something is seriously wrong? Certainly any reasonable person would look at this man day after day and think you needed medical attention. Instead, they looked at this dying man and said, "He's ready for a more challenging role." Michael's story, well, it shouldn't be shocking. But it's not. It's actually, it's typical. But before you write off, I don't want you to go and write off this particular movie studio as a terrible place to work. As it turns out, this is a company that is well liked by its employees. At the time of this recording, 80% of reviewers on Glassdoor would recommend this company to our friend and 89% approve of the company CEO. So, what's really going on here? Well, Michael's behavior and the movie studios behavior fit with how you're trained to think about work– work sucks. Work is painful. Work is physically punishing. Work is depressing. Work as hell. Work is supposed to make you feel, like, you're supposed to sacrifice your goals, your hobbies, your interests, needs. In Michael's case, eating food for the good of the team and the company, and somewhere on the other side of all this mindless suffering is an abstract achievement called success, whatever that means. Is this normal? As a career coach and CEO since 2013, and as a leader in HR in many organizations for the decade before that, I've witnessed many stories like Michael's told by smart, talented, driven, hardworking people who are crippled by jobs that no longer fit them. We're talking about afflictions like temporary blindness, seizures, acid reflux, chronic back pain, anxiety disorders, eating disorders, clinical depressions, and even suicidal thoughts. These are not happy high achievers. Instead, they push themselves to the breaking point, rather than admit they need to change careers. What's more amazing is that for many of these people, including Michael, when they changed their careers, their illnesses completely went away.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:09

Reaching the Fed Up point. Does it seem to you that there must be something better out there, but you have no idea what it is or how to find it? It's not easy for driven hard working successful people to convince themselves to change careers. They're often committed to the organization they work for, their team, or using their graduate degrees, they have to reach the fed up point. And that can take years. Arriving at the fed up point is often the result of a double trigger process. The first trigger is realizing they're unhappy and want to change their career. That seems like it should be enough to convince them to change but it's not them. They need a second trigger, usually an external event that propels them into action. The pivotal event that convinced Michael to leave the studio took place after he accepted his last promotion, and had been in the role for months. He walked into a meeting with two senior VPs. And one of them looked at Michael and asked, "Hey, are you going to jump off the building?" Although they may have been joking, this was a wake up call for Michael, not because he'd spent the past couple of months feeling sick during most of his waking hours. Nope. It was because before that meeting, he'd had real thoughts about jumping off a building. I don't want to make light of this at all. I also experienced thoughts in a role that was a terrible fit for me, where I legitimately considered jumping out a second story of a building, not necessarily to end everything, but I was seriously considering how I could get days off at work when I was working 90 hour weeks and pushing myself to the brink. And so these are obviously indications of being in an unhealthy situation for a long period of time. And although Michael had accepted the additional responsibilities because he didn't want to miss the opportunity for new challenges and growth, he stayed at the company because he felt responsibility to his team. And because even though the work had nearly doubled, he still believed he needed to figure it out. The VP's question made him realize that the situation was far more serious. After that meeting, he went to see his doctor who confirmed he was so anxious and exhausted that he might not physically survive this level of stress for much longer. Michael gave his two weeks notice with no idea of what he wanted to do next, except regain his health. That decision probably saved his life. And it certainly made it much better than the one he was living. I live for stories like Michael's. They inspire me to help people who are unhappy, or even people who are settling in their careers that might have a great situation. I want to help those people find work that truly fits them, so that they can thrive. Michael's story is not a fairy tale. The world of work has changed so much for humans that his story is a shadow of what is possible for many people, and more importantly, how it can be possible for you. I've divided this book into four parts to clearly outline the journey. In part one, I'll talk about why it's so important for you to make a change and how happy high achievers hit similar markers or milestones along the way. I'll also look at the biggest obstacles that might be stopping you from finding fulfilling work. In part two, I'll prepare you for your career change journey.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:34

If you want to do something that most consider impossible, you're going to need a different level of preparation, I promise. This includes deciphering how top performers build a profile of their ideal career by considering and exploring the seven key elements that bring fulfillment to any career, which I'll discuss in part three. Part four is all about the doing, the landing, and the thriving. Beginning with designing experiments, adjusting when things don't work out, as you imagine, and then learning how to thrive, which as it turns out is far different from just showing up to your ideal situation and expecting it to be rainbows and butterflies like most people do. It's way more than that. Most people don't even realize that career change is possible, or they feel stuck. But as I've worked with our clients over the last decade, and helped 1000s of people make career changes to fulfilling work that also pays well, I've learned that you need to see for yourself first, that is real. Once you see what's possible, it's almost impossible not to change your mindset. And that's exactly what you need to do to make real change happen. Which by the way, is why we air so many stories on our podcast, to be able to help you see what's possible for yourself. These are stories of real people sharing in their own words, how they made incredible career changes to much more fulfilling work. It doesn't matter where you're starting from. What matters is you're making the choice now, to do things very differently going forward. You can live and work intentionally. And I'll show you how that career change is far more than simply changing companies. Even if you've already decided that change is for you, one thing that I've learned in studying human psychology, behavior, and ultimately career success is that there's no one set of steps, we all have different roadmaps and ladders, and anyone who tells you differently is full of it. That is why Career Change is so hard. That's not to say that there's no commonalities among the high achievers and their journeys, there are similar milestones, they all hit along the way. And that's what I'd like to talk about next, which leads right into chapter two, which I'll save for a different day.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:46

But I'll tell you, at the end of every chapter in the book, I have a checklist of some of the most useful questions that we have found over the years that really help people make big changes to their lives and their careers. Sort of like a workbook to help you move along your career change journey. And today, I want to leave you to ponder one of those six questions at the end of chapter one. That question, if you're still in the same place 12 months from now, is that good for you? By the way, I'd love to hear your answer for this question. So I'm gonna give you my personal email, scott@happentoyourcareer.com, by the way, just open up your phone, or go on your computer and open an email, send it to scott@happentoyourcareer.com, put in the subject line, "12 Months". And I will make sure that either myself or my team gets to look at it. And by the way, don't forget that if you enjoy any piece of this chapter whatsoever, you're really going to love the rest of the book, and you can preorder it right now. That makes me so happy. I'm actually quite excited about it, not just because of his four years of worth of work. But more importantly, because over that last four years, we've created something that really will completely change how you're doing your career, how you're doing life. It is not just about how people just like you make seemingly impossible career changes. But how you can think and do your work completely differently in a way that is wonderful for you and impacts your health, your family, your paycheck and everything in between. But if being well paid for work that fits you in changing your entire life isn't enough to make it even more worthwhile, we put together a ton of bonuses that you'll receive when you preorder the book, including scripts you can use during your career change, like how to negotiate a raise. And you'll also, this is a really fun one, you'll actually get a copy of the book when you preorder on Amazon and you send us a copy of that receipt, we're going to send you a copy of the book before anybody else has it, that copy is going to be a limited edition copy that will magically appear at your house before the book is even released. And this is a bonus copy. So if you want you can give that other book that you preorder on Amazon to a friend or family member or a co-worker and contribute to the mission to change the way that the world does and thinks about work. Go get it, it's available on Amazon, you can do it right now in less than 60 seconds. Just send a copy of your preorder receipt to me directly, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. And then you'll get all those bonuses before anybody else does. Pretty cool, right? And by the way "Happen To Your Career" comes out officially, officially for the rest of the world on October 18. That's our publishing date. So go check it out. Preorder the book right now, and let me know what you think. I hope you love it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:37

Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 2 24:43

So when I think of making an impact, it's how did you or how did I contribute to good in any other place? And then in return, what did I get back from that?

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:56

Okay, let me know if this is ever something you thought or said. I just want to feel like I am helping people or I just want to feel like the work I'm doing is making an impact. Chances are really high that you thought or said something like this. Because as it turns out, almost every single person we talked to at HTYC eventually comes to the realization some place throughout their career, that what they want to do is something that is helping people. At least, that's how everyone describes it. But once we dig deeper into that realization, it becomes apparent that what they're missing is the connection between how they're helping people and how that relates to meaning and fulfillment.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:37

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Maggie Romanovich 00:01

That's the whole idea of Happen To Your Career, rather than falling into a role because you are in the right place at the right time, you have discovered what place and what time you want to be in, and then those opportunities surface themselves to you because you're searching in a different way.

Introduction 00:17

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:41

Being able to find and articulate your strengths is one of the most eye opening parts of the career change process. Consequently, we talk a lot about strengths on this podcast. But one thing we haven't talked about much is what can happen if you dig in and focus on your strengths for years as opposed to simply finding out and knowing your strengths and, you know, going to make a career change. What happens when you continue that self-discovery work and tweaking your roles and how you're spending your time over and over again to better align with your strengths? When you do that you can reach levels you never thought possible.

Maggie Romanovich 01:20

You know, one of the things that has been very eye opening to me over the, like, going through my career change was that I have strengths that I've always viewed as, like, weird quirks, but they work really well in the job I'm at.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:36

That's Maggie Romanovich. Maggie started to get some clues that her role as a media coordinator wasn't the best fit. When she realized everyone else around her was really into their work, they were really into media, and she was just not at that level of interest. She found HTYC back when she was trying to figure out what could be the thing for her. And when she was at the point of being ready to move on from that type of work. And she was actually one of the people that we worked with during the very first year that we were doing coaching, way back in 2014. Since that time, Maggie has been promoted not one, not two, not three, but four times. By the way, Maggie is a master of using her strengths. And I think you'll learn a lot from her. She calls attention to her strengths so often at work, that one of our team members has coined them "Maggie magic." Pay attention later on to how Maggie talks about the ongoing experiment of using strengths over the course of many years and how she's used that knowledge to pivot into roles that aligns with her more and more. Here's Maggie talking about what led her up to that initial career transition.

Maggie Romanovich 02:51

So I got my degree in radio engineering, essentially, as communications with an emphasis in radio. I started off in live sound reinforcement. It's funny that you call your company Happen To Your Career, because I happened upon a radio station when I had graduated high school, and I'm like, "Would you happen to need an intern? Because I would happen to like to do this because I thought PR might be interesting." And the more I got into radio, I was like, "I really liked this." And so I went to community college for a couple years, came up to Chicago and got my degree in radio. And everybody tells you, like, you got to start off in a small market, you're not going to make it in a big market. And I ended up actually working in Chicago radio. And I ended up working for a football team's broadcast group. And I realized, I had a child, I had a three month old at home, I just come back from maternity leave. And my husband was seeking out a new career. And I was like, "I can't raise a family on the income that I'm making right now. I love the people. I love the work. But I can't. This is not feasible." And so I had... this is where I'm very grateful, I had a friend who knew somebody who was looking for someone and I ended up at Constellation Brands. So we import beer, wine and spirits. We have a fantastic set of values that we've had for the 75 plus years that we've been in existence, and they've remained the same throughout. And I started off as a media planner. And I started off as a coordinator, but four years into that I got promoted to associate manager, and I hit a wall. And I know I hit a wall because I had a wonderful manager, Julianne Coleman, she was brilliant, because she would coach you and you wouldn't know you were being coached until afterwards, she felt better about what just happened. And even if when you made a mistake, she's like, "Well in the future, like let's talk about ways you can fix it." She was wonderful. And my husband had just gone back to school to get his teaching degree. And he should have always been a teacher. He's brilliant with middle school aged kids. And he'd coached them for a long time, and now he teaches eighth grade math out by. He's brilliant. And she said, "Your husband just went back and he's starting his new career. He just went back to school. What would you like to do with your career? Because you don't have the experience set from you to promote you where you're at now, we could move you into an agency and then you could come back, or is media your thing?" And I said, "I don't know. Let me think about that." Because she essentially said like, "You stumbled onto this job. What if you chose something?" And so like all of these little seeds were planted. And then I was a big podcast fan and I stumbled across a podcast called "The overwhelmed brain". And I said, "Oh, that's me." And, yeah, and to be honest, like it was a great podcast. But the only one... the only episode I listened to was the one that you were on, it was Happen To Your Career. I'm like, "I have an overwhelmed brain, I'd like to happen to my career." And once I listened to that, I ended up on the Happen To Your Career journey. And so all of these things kind of started pointing me to happening to my own career. And I can't remember if, like, you were starting a website, or if I just like connected with you on LinkedIn. And I said... I don't remember how I ended up actually getting involved. So I remember we were like, in some beta groups and stuff. But it's funny, because when I recommend it to people now, like, "This is what it was called when I did it. Let's search the website", which I'm like, "Oh, yeah, they do all this cool stuff, too. Like, you should totally check it all out." But this is the thing I'm talking about. So what was great about it is it gave me a moment to reflect on myself. I was spending a ton of time doing that, because I had a job and a baby, and my husband was in school. And you know, it just gave me an opportunity to do that in a focused way. And so when I tell people this story, the two questions and reflection exercises that really stand out to me, where was the one where you had people lay out your previous jobs and things that you really love to do, like projects that you worked on, or people that you worked with. And everything that I laid out for my previous three jobs were like, "Okay, I was teaching people how to do something. I was setting up a workshop, I was trying to help people unlock something in themselves that would make them better and make them feel better for having spent the time with me or something that I created." And I was like, okay, that's something there. And then the other one that really stood out to me was, "If money was no object, what three things would you consider for careers?" And one of them was a teacher. The other one, I think, was like a pastry chef or a baker. And I don't remember what the third thing was, because I was like, "Oh, I was like, I love empowering people on the job. I want to go into corporate learning and development." And then the other piece of the pastry chef, I actually bake for fun and make all kinds of shaped cakes. And I've made cakes for for people and stuff. So I'm doing that as a hobby, and I'm like, "okay, I can embrace that. I've identified it", right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:23

Wait. Hold on for a second. That is amazing. I actually do remember the pastry chef, because we talked about that way back. Because at some point, we got on the phone and did a coaching session. And I remember you saying that the pastry chef. But that's really fun to hear all these years later, you've been able to incorporate all of those little pieces in one way or another. That's super cool. Way to go!

Maggie Romanovich 07:46

Yeah. And so I was able to mishmash the whole exercise together. And I went to Julianne and I said, "I think I want to get into corporate training" is what I called it. I know now that it's not corporate training, it's learning and development... talent development, and all those new phrases we come up with. But she said, "I think you'd be great at that. Let's figure out how we can make that happen here." And so she put me in touch with our training group. And I had an informational interview. And I said, "What do I need to do to become a viable candidate?" And so then I was put on a course for another training experience, where I could learn more about the science of learning and development. And that was super helpful through a local chapter of the Association for Talent Development. And a job opened up while I was in the middle of that class. And that's where we had our coaching session, because I went through the interview process. It was long, it was several, several. It was, I think, it'd be like three months. But that's sometimes how we move here. But they were creating a whole new sales training department, and they needed somebody to run it. And I applied for it. And I got it. And I remember, we got on the phone to do a quick coaching session, because I wasn't sure how to negotiate internally. And you gave me a piece of advice that got me 3% more in the offered salary, and it was negotiation by silence. Like, just tell them that you need to get back to them. And so I actually told them, I'm like, "Hey, I need to review this offer with my family. I want to make sure that it's the right move. It's going to be a lot of work. I'll get back to you." I didn't tell them that my husband was a teacher, and I probably won't be able to talk to him until after I got home. And so by 5:05, I'm on the train coming home, and I've got a meeting on the books for the next morning where they offered me more than was in my mind. And I was able to get more money. Everybody was happy. And from there, I was able to really thrive like once I figured out like oh, this is what I'm supposed to be doing, I'm getting in the mix, and I'm helping people do their job better. And within, I think, two or three years a new position opened up for a new sales group, I was able to take that role on. And then last year, I got promoted out of a reorg which doesn't happen very often and I really fortunate that my work has demonstrated, that I was worthy of a promotion coming out of a reorg. And from there, I've been able to collaborate with some really incredible people, consultation and be tapped for culture, building things. And those are all the things that were identified seven years ago, when I did that exercise.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:20

What do you remember... Let's go back to the first change where you were working in media, and then you moved over to training and development. What do you remember about how it felt like, what were the differences in how it felt being in one type of role that was, let's say, less aligned, in one type of role that was more aligned, what do you remember about that time?

Maggie Romanovich 10:45

So working on the media team, I loved the women that I worked with. They were so great to work with, and they were so supportive, and I never fully felt like I was carrying my weight like they were. And I think part of it was that alignment of interest, even out of interest, like, it's all very interesting. Like, for whatever reason, like the concepts were really difficult for me to really like, grasp and apply the way that they were doing it. And they're so good. I mean, one of the women I work with now is running one of the departments within Media Herschel. And when I moved over to learning and development, things were validated, they had already clicked. And so I felt like I could grow. Because the way that I always approached things, like, when I worked on the media team, like explaining why we are going from one medium to another, like what that means for our consumer and our shopper, like the education part of that was really great. The application of me doing the planning for that was just more challenging for me. And so it because it was very analytical, and I'm very, like left brained and a lot of that was it right brained.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:56

Whatever the brain that applies to that analytical.

Maggie Romanovich 11:58

Yeah, the analytical brain was not me in that sense. Now, in learning analysis, like, that's not a problem for me, because I know where to look, I know what kind of numbers to pull, I know what kind of questions to ask. So whereas, it was scary to jump into a different pool where I didn't know the temperature, I knew that I would figure out how to swim a little bit faster. And I would feel like I was contributing to the organization and to my team, as much as I saw Julianne and Amy contributing to what my previous function was. But you know, I felt I, like instinctually, I knew more about how to do these things. And like I had mentioned, when we were kind of prepping for this, that quirkiness of me being a weirdo, I felt like I could really embrace that. And it felt less weird in this space, like I could take, I really love pulling pop culture references into my work. And so we did a whole icebreaker on creating a band that's together, you're bigger than the sum of your parts, because you work together better. And it was all an analogy from Bohemian Rhapsody from that whole scene where Freddie's tried to get them to play for Live Aid. And I've been able to focus on some of those weird, like, quirkiness things about me. And so things that make people feel like they belong. And that's been really important. You know, one of the things that has been very eye opening to me over the like, since going through my career change was that I have strengths that have always been, I've always viewed as, like, weird quirks, but they work really well in the job I'm at. And my former team leader called me "Maggie magic." And I was like, "Oh, I think you will knock something there. Like I've been able to take leverage those strengths, to make other people feel good about where they're at and feel more connected to each other."

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:52

Yes. So first of all, that exercise makes me very happy where you're using the analogy of the band and everything else. And second of all, I think that it seems as though to so many people that those quirks, as you call them, those things that make you different or make you unique, they often get perceived as something that is a potential negative that you have to offset.

Maggie Romanovich 14:18

Yeah, like nonsense.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:19

Yeah, in so many ways. And I think we have a tendency to, one, not recognize that those quirks, those things that we sort of can't help but do anyways, are actually clues as to our strengths. And I love how you're bringing that up to be able to say that, "hey, like it actually was a further validation that this was a fit, because all those things that were normally quirks to many people now actually works here, so well".

Maggie Romanovich 14:49

Yeah. And so after making that change, it was really cool to be part of your beta, because we were able to, like, provide feedback and you developed all these cool things and we were able to experience someone when they were in their infancy and got to watch them grow up. I connected with one of the instructors from that course that I took. And she was getting her coaching certification. So I helped her get her hours, and she helped coach me. And one of the things that we did was strengthsfinder, and so the Strengthsfinder that I discovered at Happen To Your Career, the strengthsfinder that I have in here, and like the idea of... if I can amplify those strengths, rather than trying to, like, accommodate the things that I'm not as strong in, like, it's gonna make a bigger difference for me to amplify my strengths than to try to like make up ground for things that aren't as strong for me. And so it's less of a struggle to be in my function, it's less of a struggle to function, because I'm doing things that I'm naturally drawn to, as opposed to things I'm trying to force myself into. And that's like to me, like, that's the whole idea of happening to your career, rather than falling into a roll because you are in the right place at the right time. You have discovered what place and what time you want to be in, and then those opportunities surface themselves to you because you're searching in a different way.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:07

Yeah. And you make such a great point too about it is... I don't remember how you said it, but basically, it's more impactful and it feels better too, to focus on amplifying those strengths, as opposed to trying to minimize or offset the weaknesses, which is, that's an unfortunate, I really liked to make an impact on that in the world in a variety of different ways. Because that's so much of what happens on accident out in the real world, you get feedback on what you suck at. You get feedback from all of the, essentially, all your weaknesses.

Maggie Romanovich 16:41

And some things you could do better. You think I didn't know that already? Like, tell me something that I'm good at that I can do more of please.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:52

Exactly. But it totally flips that on its head. And actually now, even just 10 years later from when we started doing this, there's really wonderful data to be able to support that that's actually a much more effective, more productive approach, even to the point where, you know, people that are engaged in their strengths type activities, just as little as one to two hours a day difference, actually smile more throughout the day.

Maggie Romanovich 17:17

I'm happier. Like, I mean, I think there's a lot of circumstances that are leading to my happiness, which, like, I'm not like physically dealing with infants anymore. Brilliant babies, they were brilliant babies. But I'm in the very much in the mental game of my parenthood at this point, which is different, but I'm not as tired physically as I was before. But finding the things that you excel at from a career perspective, like you're not bringing all that baggage home. And I want to be really clear, like my job on the media team was fantastic. Like they were wonderful to work with. And it was very, like, you could see the results of your efforts. And we had good analysis around it. But just like the that leveling up of my happiness, because I was impacting the way that I wanted to, and I'm able to align with my values of supporting people in the role that I'm in, like, I love when in a workshop, somebody's like, "oh, that totally makes sense now", and I'm like, "you knew it all along. I just turned a different key than you were thinking of." Like, that's really... that's what something like Happen To Your Career did for me, it's like you have this inside you, it's just you didn't have the right set of keys, like, you're working on and a different set of keys. So actually, that makes me think of another exercise that really stands out to me now that we're reflecting on it. One of the things that you said, I don't remember if it was in a video that I watched, or an exercise, or maybe both, but we listed out the things that you wanted, it was really easy to have an exhaustive list of things that you don't want. But it's really hard to identify what you do want. And having the opportunity to reflect on that also helps me shift because it was like, what are the things that trip you up? And what are the things that you really love? So that was a really powerful exercise, too, that kind of sunk behind. But you know, now that we're reflecting on it, it made a big difference.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:04

That's interesting. So how would you say that that had an impact for you in how you thought about what you specifically wanted or needed?

Maggie Romanovich 19:14

Well, I think I could probably make the best analogy thinking about my industry, right? Like when you look at the beer cooler, and you don't know what you're going to shop for, it's really easy for you to walk through and be like, "Well, I don't want that. And I don't want that." And so you're really just making a choice based on the elimination of the things around you. Whereas you're like, "This is the occasion that I'm going for. This is the kind of experience that I want to have. These are the kinds of imagery I want associated with whatever this event is and I'm buying my beer for," you go and buy that beer because you knew what you wanted and it makes your decision making. It's less of a struggle to make that choice because you know what you're looking for, as opposed to what you're trying to get out of the way.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:56

I love that analogy because in some ways it is very much, it is so much more difficult to be able to walk over to the empty beer cooler and say "no, this is actually what I want" without those choices in front of you, as opposed to what you said, having that process of elimination, "Well, I don't know if I want this. Nah! That doesn't seem quite right." I guess...

Introduction 20:18

There is so much time, right? There is so much time trying to figure that out. But if you know what you want, it's a shorter distance.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:25

For sure. Interesting. So my question becomes, then, how have you doubled down in some of these areas? Because you started exploring and finding what felt right, all of those quirks, as we said, started to align and it's like, "wow, they work here." And then that kept turning into a variety of different promotions, new opportunities. So what did that actually look like? When you went from that first role in training and development to the second or third role, how did that change and help you understand more of what worked for you, or what didn't work for you?

Maggie Romanovich 21:07

So I did a lot of self development, obviously, like I came upon your exercises, and I sought out a lot of development on my own. And I think I'm in a really great environment where I can experiment a lot. Because learning and development can be a little a serial, it's not like a transaction where if I give you this, you give me that, and here's my result. And so it gives me an opportunity to experiment a little bit. So that's definitely a benefit of being at the company I'm at, and in the culture that we're in. As I think about how I doubled down on those thing, the more I experimented, the more I saw people's enthusiasm for what I was creating, what I was co-creating, what I was collaborating on. And it's almost like, not that I'm performing, but in a performance, the more people applauded, the more energy you have to do that thing again, right? So that was sort of my applause, to quote Lady Gaga, that I was living for. I started seeing a lot of positive reactions to things like creating the band, right, we were able to create our culture around that, but also identify what it's like to be part of a team. And so I think I was able to experiment and replicate and grow and experiment, replicate and grow. And that unlocked for me more ideas for me to like, go a little bit further outside the box. Oh, that worked. Okay, now I'm gonna go a little bit further outside the box. So then when I moved into this role, it's a much bigger team that I was supporting, before I was supporting about 100 people. And now I support around 400 people from an education perspective, and that's just with our internal stakeholders, or external stakeholders, that universe is even bigger. And so being able to start off in that first role and see that progression in a quick enough pace that I still recall, all of those little experiments that worked or didn't work, it makes me braver to reach further outside of that box and talk to leaders about like, "What if we thought about doing it this way? I'm gonna put all this stuff in the Martini shaker with a little bit of a seltzer like, it's gonna get fizzy, like, are you ready for that?" And it's paying off, I've been in this current role for a year. And some of those experiments that I did on that smaller scale, I'm now able to replicate for a larger group. And now I got more people to collaborate with too, like the women who work with me, you know, in learning and development, and the guy who works on my team, like, we have a really good time and we collaborate really well, and we're able to multiply those things. So I would say just that sense of creative expression that impacts our business has been really powerful. And the more I do it, the braver I get to get more people on board. I'm not sure that I totally answered that question.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:57

Well, I think you did. And I think you brought up some even more important points too, because when we started talking, I told you I was really excited for this conversation. And I think one of the reasons that I'm now even more excited is because as you're explaining your career trajectory, you're talking about the experimentation that took place and then each one of those experiments helped get you feedback to be able to see that, "hey, this is working for me and is working for other people" no matter what we were talking about falling into that experiment, or "this doesn't work as well and I can focus on the areas that are working." But I think the thing that is so wonderful here is a lot of times we get really caught up into what is the next step or from, like, going all the way to perfect or... and that doesn't exist in any way whatsoever. Yeah. Like it's impossible. Let's do something that actually is more useful. And yeah, don't go for for that. All that to say, though, that this has happened over a period of seven years for you, where ongoing experiments have fueled your understanding of yourself and what you need and what you want, and then at the same time, allowed you to then make steps closer and closer and closer to what you want and the contribution that you're providing for other people, too, which is really fun to see. So I'm really glad that we're getting to do this and have this conversation after seven years.

Maggie Romanovich 25:28

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So it was like a four, and I guess mid, because it's definitely not after. But you know, I think, to kind of bring that another step further, the more comfortable and confident I've been in my ability to create things that make me fulfilled and better at my job, it is also reflecting and how the business is responding to it too, like, they're getting things out of it, because I'm better at what I do, they are receiving more from me, which makes me better at what I do, which makes them receive more for me. And it's hard, like you're talking about perfection, it's really hard to create something that kind of embraces all of your little quirks, reveal it to people who might not appreciate quirks the same way that you'd want them to. So, you know, I've been able to get a lot more professional courage, and I haven't really been shut down. Like, those are things that people... I've opened myself up to feedback were, like, "alright, what would we do differently?" Right. But nobody's ever really said like, "that is completely wrong." The only person who's ever said that to me, was me. And now I'm trusting me more to be able to open those more creative parts of my function up. And our leaders are like, "Yeah, let's try it out. And have you thought about this? Have you thought about that?" And once you kind of let that fear go, you build something better because you're not like, "Hey, this isn't personal. This is something that they need. So how do we make it something that works for everybody?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:07

That's a story that I've heard many times over. And I think it is scary for any human being, most human beings, maybe there's, I don't know, somebody out there who is not scared of it. But it's scary to put ourselves out there in that ways. And that, and when we're talking about strengths, and talking about quirks and things like that, like that really is us in one way or another, putting ourselves our truest selves out there. And actually, I really love Martin Seligman's definition, he's the guy who coined signature strengths and that whole terminology in the first place. But he talks about signature strengths really being you in your truest form. And if we think about that, as a definition around strengths, like your quirks, and all those things that make you, you, your uniqueness are just you in your truest form. And that is freaking scary to put yourself out there. So what I love about what you've done is that you've continued to raise the bar every time you get feedback that "oh, this actually works", then you've continued to raise the bar and go a little bit deeper, a little bit further, and continue to get that feedback. And the part I think that everyone underestimates is, and this is the story I've heard over and over again, is that actually, people usually get a really wonderful response to putting more of themselves out there, for the most part. As opposed to, we're all fearful that like, I'm going to be rejected. And sometimes that happens, and sometimes that's wonderful, actually, because then you can go to a different place where people are responsive to those quirks.

Maggie Romanovich 28:43

The rejection is just as... that's something to cross off your list, you know, it's like, "Okay, that didn't work, that's fine." Like, I'm gonna... and sometimes it's harder to shake it off than other times. But a couple things that mean that I thought of while we were having a change is, like, my quirks don't make me special, more special, less special than anybody else. Like everybody has quirks, right? Like, but once I stopped trying to hide parts of myself and became my true self, I saw more success. You know, and going back to seven years ago, the Happen To Your Career exercises, helped me figure out, like, "okay, what are these little truth nuggets that I can pull out and start exploring more?" And I've been able to do a lot more with it like, just from work, the business resource groups that I'm a part of, the inclusion council that I'm part of, I do work in my community as well. I'm like, "what are the things that I'm... that I like to do and that I'm strong at?" I'm going to focus on those things rather than sign up for every events. I'm gonna run the variety show. And that's one thing that's big, and it happens once a year, like kind of yes to last but make those things more impactful. Yeah, I'm on the DEI committee, I'm not going to run the whole thing, but I'm going to be a liaison because I really want to connect the community to better resources and make sure that there were more voices are heard. And so okay, those are little things that are gonna make a big difference in that space, and being able to figure out who I am, and what's important to me, you know, the way I raise my kids like, what are we focusing on here, the way that you know, my husband and I spend our time and our money like, let's stop doing things we don't find value in, or feel obligated to do, I mean there's some obligations you have to do. But the same thing applies for work and in your personal life, like, the more you can seek out opportunities that really demonstrate your strengths, the stronger your performance is going to be.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:28

Yes, agreed. So now, it makes me very curious, if you were to go all the way back for just a second here to that first change, because we have a lot of people that are listening to this, that are right at that point where you were seven years ago or so, where you're like, "hey, this is a great situation, but it's not totally the right fit. It could be better, there could be more." What advice would you give that person at that point in time?

Maggie Romanovich 30:55

So the advice that I would give that person is advice that my brilliant wise husband has given me and the time is passing, whether you are participating in your life or not. So go do the thing. Even if it's just one step forward, that's one step closer than you were yesterday, even if that step doesn't work out, and it's a misstep, it's something that you can cross off your list, but the time is passing. So what are you going to do with the rest of the revolutions you have around this planet? Like, let's keep moving forward, even if it's something small, that gives a little bit of progress. Eventually, that momentum is going to pick up and it could be a little bit scary. It's like getting to the high dive and you just creep a little bit closer, and you look over the edge until you finally jump in. But the time is passing anyway. So do something with it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:42

I love that. Let me ask you one more, since we're on the subject of what advice would you give. What about the person who is maybe just one or two roles ago, that is looking to dive further into their strengths? Maybe they already have a good understanding of some of the pieces that are their quirks or make them great, but then they know that they want more, and they're in that spots, put yourself back in that spot just a couple of years ago here for a second, what advice would you give to that person?

Maggie Romanovich 32:11

If your circumstances don't... like, if your employment circumstances don't fulfill all of the things that you think you can do, look in your community for ways to make a difference, there might be things that you can't leverage at work the way you can leverage in your community. And that can be a surprising piece of your puzzle of fulfillment. And it can also be a place to spend your time while you're waiting out the next step in your role. Because when you work, when you're active in your community, you're still developing skills that you can use at your job. And also look for maybe stretch projects and mentorships at your company where it's like one of the things that really helped me figure out that I was good at learning and development and enablement as I was brought into a project at work where we were rebuilding our purchasing program, and I was the subject matter expert for the marketing team. And so I was able to be a subject matter expert, give some advice on how this needs to be built so that it'll work within our financial requirements. But then they also tapped into me to train the different levels of people who were in our part of the organization and how they need to use this new tool. And so that allowed me to demonstrate some expertise, it allowed me to do something a little bit different by developing a training program. And I didn't get a raise out of it. I didn't get a promotion out of it. But it was another thing to put on my resume and put it in my toolbox of things that I could use on the next job. So it might not be something immediate, but the time is passing. So get involved in other ways, in another non traditional ways, and that might help you get to the next level.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:54

Make a story is one of the many that you can read about in our upcoming book "Happen To Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work". It actually hits shelves on October 18th. If you're listening to this, and you enjoy this podcast, I know that you'll love the book. And I would encourage you to go get it, you can visit happentoyourcareer.com/book to learn more about the book. All right, we'll see y'all next week. Here's what's coming up.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:25

In 2020, I was in San Diego with my wife, Alyssa. We were celebrating 21 years together. We had a few hours before heading to the airport and flying home to our three kids, so we met up with Michael, the former client at a diner overlooking Pacific Beach. He had spent that morning photographing the ocean. This meetup took place only a few months after Michael had accepted a new role as an independent mortgage broker. A completely different career from the one where he had struggled, and one Michael had never imagined he would land in. But he was deliriously happy, smiling, and telling me and Alyssa just how much better his life was than it had been in years.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:07

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Quynh Killpack 00:00

I think the whole thing is a great evolution because I've always tried to tell myself that what I need to know to move forward is in each step.

Introduction 00:15

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:35

Many careers are made up of a string of mediocre jobs. And if you're a high performer, by the way, spoiler alert, if you're listening to this podcast, you likely are a high performer. But if you're a high performer, mediocrity can feel like prison– a prison with no doors, no windows and no escape. Okay, that's actually starting to sound more like a coffin. Anyhow, let me pivot to some great news. Just because you've only ever had mediocre jobs does not mean that's all there is out there. There's so much more. And there is a career that is the right fit for you that actually can help you be more happy more often and influence your level of fulfillment, happiness. Career progress doesn't mean knowing exactly what you want from day one of your career, and so many of us feel like we need to know that like all the time, so much pressure. Oh, and it doesn't mean we're necessarily working to climb the corporate ladder. Career progress is really taking your learnings from each of your roles, even the mediocre ones, determining what you enjoyed about each of them, what worked and using those experiences to build, what we like to call your ideal career profile.

Quynh Killpack 01:44

Originally, the plan was where I can work and live in both countries, you know, and I have no idea how to get there. I don't even know where to start. And I get paralyzed during research. And I feel like I have to take courses and go to extra schools.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:00

That's Quynh Killpack and I'm pretty excited for you to hear her story. When Quynh moved to the US on a student visa in 2011, and after spending a decade working many different jobs here in the US, she realized her biggest priority was her family, specifically to see her parents more often who are still living in Vietnam. Before the pandemic hit, she got a taste of what it would be like to have a job that allowed her to travel back to Vietnam for work. Quynh reached out to us. And she had a few very specific goals. One was to be able to bring your parents from the US to visit her for extended periods of time. Pretty cool, right? Also, she wanted the flexibility to spend time with them when they're visiting, might as well they're here, and also allowing her to travel to Vietnam. Now, Quynh also wanted to be able to help her parents and buy a house. She came to us with these questions– "how can I make all of this possible?" Stay with me because you're gonna want to hear how Quynh's determination, her work ethic, and so many other qualities she gained from being an international student led to some pretty amazing results.

Quynh Killpack 03:07

I came here in 2011 on a student visa. So I'm from Vietnam, and it's very typical for, I would say, middle class family to send their children to go study abroad. So like within my high school class, there are kids in the US, there are kids in Europe, like, Australia, all over the world. It's very, very common to go away for college. So it's all lined up, you know, and yeah, so I just follow that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:37

So what happened after you arrived here? Tell me a little bit about your experience and what led up to where you are today.

Quynh Killpack 03:48

I just... it's like a different world to go from Saigon Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam to Salt Lake City, Utah. The City that I'm from in Vietnam is... the population is greater than New York. So to go... from the Salt Lake City, Utah, there is like, I feel like when I first got here, like nobody lived here, and...

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:11

Where are all the people?

Quynh Killpack 04:13

Yes, like I... because, you know, and like everybody drive cars too. So you don't see them. In Vietnam, you see people out, you know, riding scooters and walking around. So it was a good experience. Just to sum it up, I think I didn't know... I was usually a planner and I just like, don't know what I wanted to do after... I know what I have to decide after two years of community college but I didn't know I was just doing a general education. And then when I have to choose something to transfer to a four year again, because I cannot, like, that's the thing would international student– you cannot be part time. So even if you don't know what you're studying, you have to sign up for at least 12 credits, and so I just have to pick something. And my mom is a doctor. So I know I like to help people. So I just use this little bit of knowledge. And I was like, "Okay, I'm gonna go into healthcare." And I look into that more. And I wanted to do occupational therapists, which is a graduate degree. So I just need to pick a bachelor, like any bachelor and doing two prerequisites to do that. And at the time it was so... I remember writing this really long email to my parents, explaining what occupational therapist is because it hasn't exist in Vietnam. There's PT, but there's no OT. So we're just like, I don't even know what to call it in Vietnamese, you know, but I would try to like learn about it and explain it to my parents, that's another piece of being an international student is your support system is like, your parents want the best for you, but they don't know because they didn't go to college here. And they also didn't live here, like, having lived in the US. So they don't know, like, what does that mean? Where you can work with that? What's your salary ranges? I don't know any of that. So you're alone in figuring that out. And like, it was scary to choose that. Because I was like, "what if I choose this and I can't get, like, work sponsorship and I go back to Vietnam? And what do I do?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:15

Tell me a little bit about what are some of the different points in the process when you're going to a foreign country, and you are going through this type of process? Because you and I have had a conversation before we hit record where you were describing to me some of the different timelines, and also some of the different pressures along the way, as you're going through this.

Quynh Killpack 06:42

I came to the US when I was 17 in 2011, attended a community college until I was 13, transferred to a four year institution and graduated in 16. And then from 2011 to 17, I'm on my student visa. And then after that, I've met my husband and I got married. And that's where I've switched from non immigrant to immigrants. And that's like I went through the whole permanent residence process.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:10

Looking back on that, what do you feel were the hardest parts out of that set of experiences for you?

Quynh Killpack 07:18

Yeah, so it's just like, I kind of touched on it before where there is a lot of tight pressure, because like the visa require you to be a full time student. So even if you don't know what you're studying, you have to be a full time, you really need to have to. If you're not studying, then you need to, like, file papers or take a leave of absence, you have to, like you can't stay in the US, you have to go back to your country. It's, you know, and I have been on both sides, because I was an international student on the f1 visa. And I also work at the university like kind of support international students. So once I have my permanent residents and you know, live and work here, I was issuing the i20, which is the important piece of paper that helps student get a visa. So every semester, the university has to check to see each of the international students register, and like, stay in class. And if they like, you know, halfway semester that not show up to class or something, then they will reach out, check in, telling the student that they may violating because their visa is, they need to go to class. So you cannot stop. You cannot just like I'm going to take a break, you cannot stop. If you do then you probably cannot stay here. So that's one thing is very hard. Number two is I cannot work off campus. So that's really limiting me to like working in a cafeteria, working as a tutor, working like some office administrative thing. And this, like affects my ability to learn about myself, because I learned through doing. So it's tricky. And then like after graduation, a lot of places with literally asked in the application tracking system if you require sponsorship, and they will filter you out if you say yes, so you don't even get a chance. You know, so there's all of that. It's just really hard to figure out how, I mean, that's one thing, right? The visa regulation number two is this support system like I was saying like you're figuring out this new world, you're figuring out the work, you know, the environment and the work and the jobs available here and you don't have... you typically don't have family who is not like where if I am grew up in America, maybe my mom has been like, "Oh you're interested in being a nurse. So I have this friend who is a nurse that you can go talk to." So you don't have all of that network that come with your family lived here your entire life. So it's kind of just, like, no support because your parents don't quite understand to guide you. And then also no network, but you got to build your network on yourself without any family or any other thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:12

So I'm curious about, you had mentioned that you had originally decided or at some point along the way decided occupational therapy was going to be the thing for you, and started heading that direction. So what happened that caused you to decide, "hey, yep, this is probably not the right thing for me."?

Quynh Killpack 10:34

Yeah, and I love talking about this. Because the way that I make decisions is very logical and very intentional, like, half my reason, right. So let me start by telling you why. So my mom is a doctor, like, she has a clinic at home when I was growing up. So it was like a living room-kitchen-clinic. Like, I hear people coughing, getting shot kids, like getting injection, not like the other type of shots. But like, I hear sick people every day when I was growing up. And like, I heard people coming to my house and like, even after her clinic hours, like at 10, like knocking on the door, and like, "doctor, like I have this, you know, like, what do I do," and like she would come down and like help them. And I love that. I love the power she has to calm somebody down and to be able to help them on their journey, especially when it comes to health and that like, you know, feeling so sick and so bad. So I love that. I love helping people. When I was in college, like I said, I worked on campus as a tutor. And I would absolutely work for free to help people, like, I love that. So knowing those two things– health care, like I grew up in a health care household, and I love helping people. So I was like, "Okay, I'll do something in healthcare", right. And I also know that I want a relationship with the people that I help with. So I don't want to like, see somebody in like, I don't want to be a surgeon, I don't want to be a doctor where I have like 30 minutes, and I have a list to run through and out of the room. I want a relationship. And the best thing I could find is some kind of therapy like physical therapy, occupational therapy. So that's what I wanted to do. And I had to pick something but at points, I'm like, "Okay, I'm gonna pick that." And...

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:19

The timeline pressure too going on in the background.

Quynh Killpack 12:22

Yes. So you're like, you have to pick it because you're done with your associate degree, you have, like 70 credits, like, you know, like you're halfway through your bachelor's degree, you got to move on. Yes. So fast forward, I have... I just picked whatever bachelor degree, and I picked public health. And then when I graduate, I have one year, the visa allow you one year if you're not in STEM. If you're in STEM, you have three years, not fair. You have one year before you need a working visa. So during one year, I worked for a physical therapy clinic. And so this is why I was like, "not for me." So I work there. And I was an exercise assistant. So I just show people how to do that exercise, and I explain. And like, I also be there to be in the environment to watch, right? This is why I love doing– to figure things out. Because I can watch and I can see, okay, the physical therapists like, you know, I see that they're on their feet a lot, they're over a table all the time, they have to be really strong, like, if there's something, like, have a ski accident or something like they can't work, because they have to be strong. They have to do, like, therapy on people, and they have to do that all day long, and they have to hunched over this table this whole time. And like, you know, it's super funny, because I would say that, like, I don't like to touch people that much. This is where I clarify that, like, I like to help people by talking to them, not touching.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:58

Well, that's an interesting realization, then. That is a... that seems like a deal breaker. So at that point, you realize this is not going to work out. What did you do next?

Quynh Killpack 14:09

So I was... I did a lot of things when I was in university. So I volunteer for the international student office, I was there at every orientation, volunteering, you know, and like creating international students. And then I was a tutor. And then when I went to university, when I transferred I was an advisor. So I was a peer advisor, help people picking out classes and choosing major, a lot of talking and I love that. I love that. So again, going back to what I've done before, like trying to make a decision. So I was like, I want to be an academic advisor at a university. And that was my goal, but I couldn't get in because you need to master for that. But admissions are usually the one office that have a lot of positions hiring. So that's where I got in and you know, so in admissions, there's the admission counselors, the one that go to high school and college fair and talking to parents and students. So I applied for that at the university I worked at, and I didn't get that. But at the same time, I applied for another college that is close by, and I got into international admission, which is I'm on the other side of the table now, right? So, you know, so I love interacting with students. And it sounds super cool, because I got that job, which I get to help international students, like, I know how much help they need, and how lonely and how isolating it would be. So I'm like, I love that job. And also, it paid for you to travel. So...

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:47

So looking back on that, I'm curious, you know, when you got to that point in your career, what did you feel like, what was a better fit in so many different ways? What really stood out to you that, you know, this is a great next evolution, next step?

Quynh Killpack 16:05

I think the whole thing is a great evolution, because, you know, it's just like, I've always tried to tell myself that what I need to know to move forward is in each step. So it's just like, there's insights in each step that like, right, like, I want to be in healthcare, because healthcare help people, like, that makes sense at that time, you know. So go into that. And then like, "oh, wait, I like education more." So go into that. And then I want to be an academic advisor, but testing that out, and like I couldn't, unless I have to do a master's degree. And I was like, I think I applied for it too. So and then, like, I applied for it, but like, "oh, I don't feel like I wanted to do it. I just want to be a student facing right now. I don't want to go to more school." And then that's how it leads me to like the International admission piece. So all of it is how it's supposed to be. Because if I don't try it out, and I will still be thinking, like, health care that makes sense, health care help people. But like, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't make sense, you know, so it's just like every step has an insights to propel you to the next steps.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:16

You hit on something that I think is really critical and often gets missed. You mentioned that you could try and you know, plan everything out. But you know, we wouldn't... My family and I really started doing a lot of international travel. We actually, we tried to plan as much as we possibly could. And I think you know this very well, but so it's not going to come as a surprise, that one of the things that we found is really, you can only do so much planning, like you can only do so much planning before you have to get in there and experience it in so many different ways. And the most valuable pieces of that travel were getting in there, experiencing the things that you didn't know and couldn't plan for. And I think the same thing is true. And it sounds like that's what you're getting at is like you had to go there, you had to have those experiences and those roles. And then those pave the way for the next situation– those learnings then could be applied to the next situation. I think that's really cool. And that so often gets missed. Okay, so you're in international admissions. At some point you decide, there needs to be a next step. Tell me about what happened that caused you to decide, "hey, I need to make another change."

Quynh Killpack 18:35

Yeah. So going back to that how, you know, so the plan is to get in front of students and interacting with them. Great. I'm there. Done. Right? So my first trip was, and you're going to like this, I got to go to recruit students in Vietnam. I get to go home. And that was two months after I got the job. And luckily, I don't need a visa to go to Vietnam because I'm a Vietnamese citizen. So that was the first time that I got to work in my country, because I left when I was 17. And a lot of Asian students, they don't get to do sports, they don't get to work, you just study. You just studied through the whole high school. It's pretty intense in Asia, in terms of studying. So I never get to work there, and I haven't been there. So that was 19. Right? So I haven't been there for eight years and working there anywhere. I just go there to visit my family. So haven't really into practice, like interacting with life outside of my family, right, every time when I go visit and kinda like... So Vietnam now is like a new place to me. So I love working there, you know, and that's planted an idea in my head of like, would I find a job that allowed me to work here more? And at the time that international admission job, it was support was to allow me to go to Vietnam at least once a year, every year. But that was 2019. So 2020 happens. COVID happens. So I can't, like I have to cancel my trip to Vietnam, like, I have another trip plan that I have to cancel that, and then I couldn't travel anywhere, either. You know, like, so that's planted the idea, because I get curious about the place that I grew up in now, like, seeing it through the lens as an adult. And I love being able to... that my parents have visibility into my life, and I can share with them without a call, like a report, where every month you call with your parents one time, and you just say, like, "this is what happened in one month", like it's not natural. But if I live close to them, and I go to work every day, and they come home every day, and they get a peek into my life, like I love to have that again, you know. So the combination of the countries seems interesting for me being close to family. Also, I see that my parents are getting older, and every time I meet them is more significant to me. Because if you don't see them for so long, and you see them and now they're like, I don't know, go to bed earlier, and wake up at like four in the morning. You're like, "what? Are you old people now? So just the combination of those things where it's planted the idea, but then I stick with international admissions for two years, because I love helping students and like, again, like, I haven't changed. I love helping international students. I love talking to them. So that's... I stay in that for two years. And then you know that idea, just keep lingering. And that's where I reach out to you guys.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:46

Which idea are you referring to specifically that kept lingering for you?

Quynh Killpack 21:51

The idea that, how can I find a job that allows me to live and work in both country? That now I'm in the US and be close to my parents.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:00

Yeah. So I thought that was fascinating when you and I got to chat a little over a year ago. And I thought that it was really pretty amazing that you were interested in doing that. And also, you know, not that long later, you've been able to do a bit of that, which is really, really cool. So what happened between... take us between then and now where that idea was lingering, and then you know where you're at now.

Quynh Killpack 22:33

Okay, so I found you guys, this podcast, right. And I know you help people with getting clear idea and articulate the strength on, you know, like, articulate the goal and the strength and how to get to the next step. So I got on a call with you. And then I listened to the podcast, and then I commit to the Career Change Bootcamp. And then we got to work with Phillip. So I started working with Phillip in March. So from March to December of 2021. And so originally, the plan was, like I said, where I can work and live in both countries, you know, and I have no idea how to get there. I don't even know where to start. And I get paralyzed during research. And I feel like I have to take courses and go to extra schools and like, I want a concrete plan, but I just... I don't know, I'm just like, I can distill it down. You know, so I just went through the bootcamps, I got clear on my strength, I also make a ideal career profile where I've never think about because I've never get the time to think about like, all the things that in the career profile, like not just like, "What do you want to do? And like, you know, not just what you want to do, who do you want to do it with? And what this group of people like, what's their mission? And like, what their characteristic are? Like, how much money do you want to make, right?" And, like, speaking about, one of the things that changed for me is like, when I was in college, I was like, I love helping people, I don't care about money at all, like I don't make decisions based on the job that, like, give me the most money. Also, there's this thing of like, money is evil and like you shouldn't be chasing over money, like in my head. But then I grew up and I have bills. And I was like, like I want to make money. It's just growing up and finding that balance was like well the world run on money, like my food run on money, my health care run on money, so I need a sufficient amount, you know, and then also, my parents spend all of their savings in my education, so I need money to take care of them. So I don't need money for money. I need money to be able to take care of my family, my future family, my parents, like, you know, things like that, like you know. So, the ideal career profile helped me distill all of that into the page of like, "Here's my strengths. And here's what my ideal situation looks like." And I remember, I was just like, my ideal salary, I think with Phillip, like I said that "okay, my next job would just be like, how much I make right now plus with like, two flights to Vietnam per year", which is like $4,000 more, and then bam, that's my ideal number right there. And, like Phillip says something that I keep thinking about in my head. And Phillip was like, "Quynh, I want you to like..." he's almost like telling me to dream bigger, because this definitely affects more areas in my life than just the current job, plus two flights to Vietnam a year. He's like, "it can afford you more things." And it does change your life, not just that you can buy more things, but also, like all the things that, take care of people and feel more secure, and like, invest in yourself.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:04

You can further all of the other goals that you have. Money is a wonderful tool, and finances are a wonderful tool to be able to help you accomplish the things that are most important to you.

Quynh Killpack 26:14

Yeah, exactly.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:16

Yeah. So that is really wonderful that Phillip was able to help you think bigger, not just about finances, but about the whole entire profile of what you wanted. That's amazing. And thinking about now, versus when you started, when you started really pulling what you already knew about yourself together, and then began turning that into what we often call an ideal career profile, and then using that. Do you feel like you got what you were looking for in your current role? Tell me a little bit about that. What are you really excited about that lines up with what you wanted and began to identify back over a year ago?

Quynh Killpack 27:03

I got remote work. So at my work, I'm an Executive Associate. I do sourcing, I work for a talent agency. That is like helping with tech startups. So I started my new job in January, then I've been working remotely full time. I have my parents with me, they were visiting, which if you know if that I... the reason why I started working with you guys was because of that. Yeah, so when they were here, I was able to, like, eat breakfast and lunch with them every day because they stay at my house and I work from home. And I like, I was able to, like, take walks with them because they like to walk in the morning, you know. And also, I was able to help them buy a house and turn that into an Airbnb. So yeah...

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:32

[27:53] That is cool, because that's something you had sort of casually mentioned when we chatted as, I can't remember how you termed it at the time. But I remember thinking like that's cool that that's something that you know, she wants to help with. And so that's come to fruition now, huh?

Quynh Killpack 28:10

Yeah, we have a first guest, our first Airbnb guest, a few weeks ago. And the reason I mentioned all of that is because, you know, I think with, you know, working remotely, which is something that I want, I was able to spend more time with my parents and like, go see houses. And also, you know, like, run over after work, like sometimes the plumber just, like, come in the middle of the day, and I like, work out of that house, because it's like 15 minutes away from my house, so I can meet up with that plumber. So all of that definitely were able to get more stuff done because of that arrangement.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:51

That is so cool.

Quynh Killpack 28:52

You know, so and then also the finance. So my job, the salary is higher than... and even Phillip helped me during, you know, the nine months that I was with him, he's like helped me with my performance review and asking for a higher salary. So I have the experience too and it's, like, scared me to death. But I asked him once there and then I asked him a second time when I get my new job. So I got two times down my belt, you know, but I did get a higher salary range and also, you know, I got commission, right? So it's even higher than that. So it's definitely like I feel like it's better, my job pays for my gym now. I can go to any gym, which is awesome. So yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:41

That's amazing. What advice would you give to someone who is maybe a couple of opportunities ago, a couple of your jobs ago, where they realize that what they're doing currently is not quite the right fit and they want to find the next evolution of what is the right fit for them? So what advice would you give to that person who's listening right now?

Quynh Killpack 30:06

I would say, just like, think about reflecting on your past and like, how do you make decisions that you're confident about. Because people make decisions differently. If it is talking to somebody, if it is going out there to do it, right. Or if it's reading a book, like reading a ton about it, then go and do that, know that that's how I make my decisions and go and do that. And actually, like, don't just plan or just research and study, like, take the steps. The steps are golden. The steps are packed with stuff that help you on the next level in the game. So you have to take the step, you have to play the game to get to the next level, like you can't just get to level 10 without playing all the levels.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:57

I think that's such a wonderful point, and I love how you've equated it to a game to like, you have to take the steps to be able to play the game, you have to take actions to move forward. Otherwise, you don't get to play the game. And that's just part of how life works in so many challenging and wonderful ways, I believe.

Quynh Killpack 31:15

Yeah. And then also, if you take a step, and you're like, "Wow, this is not what I think of or this is different." It's okay, I think that just you'll feel proud of yourself that you've done something to move yourself forward from where you are, like you're not right from where you are, this is how you push yourself forward. And you'll be proud of that process and as be helpful. So it's okay if you're just in progress, and your first try, and you don't get that like, we call it Bullseye candidate. But you don't get that Bullseye anyway. But I think that you will have fun along the way. And also, just a bonus thing, is that like, if you don't do something just because you think that is so hard, like really take stock of all of the hard things that you do for everybody else, and your employers, like, think of all the time that somebody else or you employer asks you to do something that you have no idea how to do, and you figure it out, somehow you just like scrabble through and you figure it out, you know, so this is what you're going to do for yourself, like, you worse this, you know, to do this hard thing for yourself.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:31

Many of the stories that you've heard on the podcast are from listeners that have decided they want to take action, and taking the first step of having a conversation with our team to try and figure out how we can help. And if you want to implement what you have heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just open your phone right now and open your email app. And I'm going to give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And then when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team. And you can have a conversation with us, we'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and your situation. So open up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line; scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:35

Hey, I hope you loved this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And if this has been helpful, then please share this podcast with your friends, with your family, with your co-workers that badly need it. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Introduction 33:51

To me, like that's the whole idea of Happen To Your Career, rather than falling into a role because you are in the right place at the right time, you have discovered what place and what time you want to be in, and then those opportunities surface themselves to you because you're searching in a different way.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:10

Being able to find and articulate your strengths is one of the most eye opening parts of the career change process. Consequently, we talk a lot about strengths on this podcast. But one thing we haven't talked about much is what can happen if you dig in and focus on your strengths for years as opposed to simply finding out and knowing your strengths and, you know, going to make a career change. What happens when you continue that self-discovery work and tweaking your roles and how you're spending your time over and over again to better align with your strengths? When you do that you can reach levels you never thought possible. All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Erin Szczerba 00:01

It felt like I was wearing 2000 pounds. Like I felt depressed. I had major brain fog. Any action I needed to take felt like, you know, I'm wearing this backpack of bricks trying to take the steps necessary.

Introduction 00:28

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:47

Back in 2005, I was working in a job that had me considering driving into a ditch or jumping out a second story window. Nothing fatal, but you know enough damage to give me some time off work. Crazy, right? Well after gaining 50 pounds through medicating with food and multiple anxiety attacks, I was pretty desperate for an escape. When I wasn't thinking about how to collect workers comp, I was internally screaming there has to be something better than this. There has to be. And since then, I've talked to many thousands of people who felt just like I once did. And this shouldn't come as a shock or huge revelation, but your job, your work should not make you physically or mentally ill. Work shouldn't suck the life out of you. Actually, it can do the opposite. It can add excitement, it can add fun, it can add purpose, it can add fulfillment and so many other positives to your life.

Erin Szczerba 01:45

So that's when I just was like, I don't know. I don't know where I would go from here. And I think there's a whole world of opportunity out there that I'm not aware of, that I need help figuring it out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:00

That's Erin Szczerba. The really interesting thing about Erin's career change journey is that in some ways, she ended up right back where she started her career out 20 years ago. She spent the past few decades getting really clear on her strengths, defining her ideal role. And today, she's a completely different person. I want you to pay attention to how her experience with roles outside of real estate helped build her confidence and give her the mindset shift she needed to thrive as she reentered the real estate world much later. Here's Erin talking about what is different in her life compared to when she was working with Dell recently, and now that she's back in the real estate world.

Erin Szczerba 02:42

I would say the biggest difference is probably that I am 100% in charge of what I do every day. And what I see comes into my bank account.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:59

I remember chatting with you about that specific thing. And I remember that that was something that was, even though it can be scary I think for many people out there and it's not right for everyone, I remember you talking about it with some reverence, because it's not the first time that you have been fully in control, if you will.

Erin Szczerba 03:25

Yeah, there were two things going on. One is that I knew that there was so much that I loved about it. Because I do like to be able to have a wild idea, and then go investigate it and see– is this something I should pursue. I love the freedom of that. And I really loved the autonomy that I had as a business owner and entrepreneur. And I also really disliked the financial insecurity that I experienced. And so I was really torn about, you know, how do I have all of it? I want to have all of it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:08

How do you have all of it? How do you get all the things, or at least the ones that are most important to you, right? So okay, let's jump away backwards for a moment here. Where did your career start out?

Erin Szczerba 04:20

I started in real estate. I had thought that I wanted to be an actress, and I was waiting tables, and I thought this is not it for me. I also want to be able to, like, buy things. I was like, "I don't think... maybe $500 a week isn't gonna work for me." So I thought, well, I love houses. That's what I do in my free time is I'm looking at houses. I'm going to open houses. I'm on realtor.com. I'm thinking about houses all the time. I want to decorate. I just love it. And so I was like "well, if I could get paid to, like, spend all my free time looking at houses that would be cool." Turns out, there's a profession where you get to do that. So at 25, I got my real estate license and started selling real estate.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:08

In chatting with you almost a year ago, it sounded like there were a lot of twists and turns compared to what led up to you working with Dell, and then ultimately leaving Dell, and then ultimately, eventually leading back into, you know, being fully control of your income, full circle in many different ways. However, you know, what caused you to make some of those changes along the way? What caused you to go from, you know, at 25 real estate eventually to Dell?

Erin Szczerba 05:42

Yeah, well, in 2007, I was a mom of an almost four year old. And my husband at the time and I made some choices to benefit his career. And all of these choices led to the realization that our marriage wasn't working. And he didn't want to be married. And so I went through divorce in 2008, which is also when the housing market crashed. And so at that time, I had to make a decision. The real estate career, I think every real estate agent who was selling real estate at that time will tell you, it changed dramatically. It went from being a nice career where, you know, you're helping buyers and sellers, and they're happy with you, because they're getting what they want for the most part to being incredibly stressful. It became kind of a dog fight between agents, because the sellers, you know, wanted more for their house and the buyers want to lessen, I was like, "Listen, I have enough stress in my life. I don't need more from my career, I need peace in my life. And my son needs me to be a peaceful mom, not a monster mom." Which is how I felt. I was mean. And so I made the decision at that time to do something else. And I didn't really know what it was, I was also flat broke. So we lost our houses in the housing market crash, we had to. I had no money, literally negative money. And so I just was like, "What can I do?" And I also was not ready to put my son in full time childcare. My husband had moved away. And so I was a full time single mom, and I just really felt like he's already missing one parent, like, am I going to be gone all day too? And so, I was just, like, begging the universe to give me an idea. And I had this idea to start an eco-friendly house cleaning company, because what do I know how to do that I can do better than other people and make money doing it, and will give me time flexibility. And I was like I'm not beneath scrubbing toilets. I'll do it. So I started an eco-friendly house cleaning company. The reason... And then I thought "Oh, I'll do eco friendly because I started using eco friendly products. And I'm loving them." And people are into that. I was in Denver, you know, so it's crunchy. And I was very lucky that I had this huge, you know, sphere of influence. And so I put together a little flier and I emailed it out and I got clients really quickly. And I was spending long days cleaning houses. I didn't know the right way to do it, but I learned. And so I eventually grew that into a well oiled machine that allowed me to go back to school. And I got my degree in organizational management. I still was spending... it still was like working three days a week. And I was spending a lot of time with my son. And then I sold that one in Denver. And then I started another. I moved to Austin to be close to my family. Started another one in Austin, sold that after two years. And then that's when I was like, "Now what do I do? I don't even know. I don't even know what jobs are out there. I've only ever worked for myself. So how do I get a job?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:12

What is this thing?

Erin Szczerba 09:14

Yeah, it was like, "do I have skills? I don't even know. Can my skills be used in corporate America?" So then I just started to investigate. I just started looking and talking to people and one thing led to another and I actually asked a friend's husband who was an executive director at Dell to review my resume and a job offer I had received from a very small company and turned out that he actually had just opened up a wreck on his team. He needed someone to be a Marketing and Communications Manager. And he was like, "you have pretty much everything that I'm looking for. And here's what I would need you to do." I literally didn't understand the words coming out of his mouth. And I was like, "I am so afraid, but I've only ever done what I already knew how to do. So I'm just going to try something new that I'm not already good at." And it was way more money than I had been making. And it was super exciting and very scary. And I became, you know, the least informed person in the room real fast and figured it out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:24

When you were at that point in time, what was the scariest part for you to jump into that, as you called it, you know, thing that you had never done before?

Erin Szczerba 10:34

Well, it was just... I was afraid that I think I had definite imposter syndrome. I was really afraid that people will find out that I was totally incompetent and should never have been given that job with that salary.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:51

The way you talk about that, I am guessing you know that, at this point, almost everybody feels that way to various different times, sometimes many different times. What ended up helping you be able to, not just jump in, but move through that?

Erin Szczerba 11:10

You know, I think it was that I was surrounded by really good people. And I was very honest with the people on my team and with my boss. I felt overwhelmed. And that I, you know, these huge conglomerates use acronyms that nobody else knows. And then they change their acronyms like every other year too. So, a lot of times, nobody knows what acronym somebody's using. And so I was like, I need, like, a dictionary for these acronyms. And so I was really honest with people that I was feeling overwhelmed. But a lot of people told me, you've got to get used to that .You have to get used to not knowing. You have to, like, trust that you're going to find a way and just make small, valuable inputs.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:59

Why do you think it is, in your opinion, that we put so much... we being... many people all over the world put so much pressure on ourselves to know all the things as opposed to trusting that it can be figured out in one way or another?

Erin Szczerba 12:17

Well, I think that is because people don't really broadcast their lack of knowledge and the struggle, you know. I only was seeing the results of people who'd been at Dell for over 10 years. And it's also very much a... a corporate culture is very much, you know, achievement, like you're hearing about the people the overachievers over and over again. And so to not immediately be an overachiever is like, "oh, no. I must suck." And I do. It's very painful. And I do... I mean, I really am loving LinkedIn these days, because I feel like people are finally being super transparent and honest on there. And people are ready for some honesty about the hard stuff, about work, and I really liked that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:13

So what happened for you? What happened for you? You had eight years at Dell, I know that you enjoyed many things over the course of that time, what caused you to decide eventually that, "you know what, I think I'm ready for something else."?

Erin Szczerba 13:30

Well, I'm the kind of person who... I love to see, like, what's the next thing I'm going for. So for me, it was a promotion. I was an independent contributor. And there are several levels of independent contributors and I had moved up to the highest level of independent contributor at Dell, which meant that then I needed for me to move up again, I was going to need to go into people management. And my leaders were saying, "you know, you should be a people leader, obviously, you should do it." And so I started looking at these roles, and I actually interviewed for one. But even though this people leader didn't hire me, he wanted to have a follow up interview with me and talk about, like, "what's next for you? And how can I help you get there?" What I learned was that I was going to really need to begin eating, breathing and sleeping if I was going to move into a people management position. Because first of all, there's not that many, there's fewer available than the independent contributor positions, and more is expected of you. You're kind of that catch all in that catch all position when you're, you know, entry and enter into the people management. So I just was like, "You know what, I just can't do it. I'm just... Dell is a great company that I don't want to talk about or think about storage or servers anymore. I don't care about them. That's just the truth. I like what they do for me in my life, but I don't care about them." So that's when I just was like, I don't know. I don't know where I would go from here. And I think there's a whole world of opportunity out there that I'm not aware of that I need help figuring it out.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:17

I think that's a amazing because it's not easy to come to that realization where you said, you know, I just don't care about server like, I think that it's easy to say that in hindsight, but when we're there, when we are experiencing and going through all those things in the moment, it's like, "Well, should I? Shouldn't I?" And all the questions come up. So I think it may sound... it's easy for us to just gloss over that. That was a smaller thing. But that's actually really powerful that you came to that conclusion overall. What helped you come to that conclusion? Was it simply the conversation that you had about, here's what would be required? Or were there other things going on at that same time where it helped with that realization for you?

Erin Szczerba 16:10

Yeah, well, that's a good point. I definitely went through a season, a long season where I was finding it very hard to do my work. And I had my projects I was working on, and a lot of it was, you know, there was my maintenance work. And then there was some strategic things I needed to be working on and some problems I needed to be solving. And that's my jam. I love that. And I was feeling extremely demotivated. And I felt like something was wrong with me. And I was being a bad employee. And actually, the funny story, maybe this will be encouraging, or maybe people will think "what?", but I... for my review in 2021, my annual review was in March of 2021. And I had already... 2020 was such a bonkers year. And I, without the travel and without the events, I mean, I was coming up with ways to connect our partners with our account executives, which is part of my job. But I was like, "I'm not doing nearly as much as I used to do." And I was feeling really guilty about it. And I thought for sure, in my review, that I was going to be told, like, "hey, we understand it's been hard, but you got to get it together." And then what I was told was that I was super creative, and I showed all of this, you know, great problem solving and strategic ability, and that I was one of the most... what was it? I was one of the most, like, flexible, adaptable people on the team, and then I was getting a big race. Like, what? Oh, my gosh. So I mean, so that was helpful. But then, so I didn't feel as bad about my brain fog and my demotivation. But then there's only so long that you can, like, show up every day to work that way, you know, that's just not gonna work for me. I need to be excited about what I'm doing. I can't just, like, trudge along and collect a paycheck. And my leader at the time was like, "give some good thought to what you really want to do."

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:25

I think that is... that's a story that I've heard over and over again, in various different, like, names and companies, and job changed. But the commonality of somebody who, like in your case, you were going to work, you're feeling guilty about being able to contribute in the way that you wanted to. And then the perception of everybody else is that you're knocking it out of the park, that you're doing really well, "hey, here's more money." And that is... it's a weird position to be in, I think, from chatting with many people that have experienced that. But I think what's really powerful for me is that you... instead of just staying in that position, because it's actually I think, arguably easier to just stay in that position where people are telling you, "You're doing an awesome job. This is fantastic, like, keep on going." But instead, you started taking action to do something about it so that you could find the right ways that you wanted to contribute. So you didn't have to have those feelings anymore. So kudos to you, first of all, and what did you learn out of that?

Erin Szczerba 19:34

Oh, I think I learned that I do good... I think I learned that I do good work, first of all. And I also learned that I can do way better work. I'm able to do way better work than I've ever done. And that I'm much more motivated by, you know, aligned values than I am by a paycheck.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:02

When you say aligned values, tell me what really drives it for you? Like, what are some of the things that you value the most, that have to be there to create an amazing situation for you?

Erin Szczerba 20:16

So I want to be problem solving personally, you know. I want to be able to know that I'm solving a problem that actually directly impacts someone's life that is important to me. And that, you know, I can see the impact that it's making on individuals. And I also need to be in a decision making role. And I need to be in a visionary role, where I say, "here are the problems that I see. And these are the solutions, but I think we can do better than those solutions. Let's find new solutions, put legs on them, and see how much more impactful that is." And I need to be much closer to the customer.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:14

So when you didn't have those values aligned, what did it feel like that was associated with having those gaps or having the lack of fit?

Erin Szczerba 21:28

It felt like I was wearing 2000 pounds of bricks. I felt depressed. I had major brain fog. Any action I needed to take felt like, you know, I'm wearing this backpack of bricks trying to take the steps necessary. It's just... and then after a day like that, where I really didn't feel energized, I didn't feel confident, I felt bad about myself.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:58

That's, you know, that's... I haven't heard anybody describe it like that. But that's actually very similar to the way that I felt, too, when I was misaligned with my values that ton of like, drudging through almost carrying all of that extra weight. So I appreciate that description on many different levels. So all of this ended up leading you to accept a different role outside the company. And some things fit about that role, but ultimately, some things did not fit too. So tell me a little bit about what happened. And what took you through that next evolution.

Erin Szczerba 22:37

Yeah. So working with my coach at Happen To Your Career, Alistair, we... Alistair helped me to see that I needed to be in some sort of client facing sales role. Everything that all my strengths, all of that add up to, you know, it's obvious. And then going through these exercises that I went through, I just could not deny that what I really wanted was to be working with clients in real estate every day. And that scared me because I had experienced financial insecurity before, I was a real estate agent during the market crash, it was a very difficult time. And I was in a place of financial security, which I was not willing to give up. And so Alistair worked with me on addressing the fear of the scarcity. And so like, what can I do to, like, Safeguard myself from these things that I'm afraid of. So that's no longer a fear of mine– doesn't have to be a fear. And I left it out, because like, the fear was real, you know, those are real things to be afraid of. But those don't have to be your reality. All of those things are solvable. So, you know, I was giving up benefits, I was giving up my health insurance, I was gonna give up my 401(k) match, and I have a son going into college, and then I was giving up my regular paycheck. So those things I worked through, and I figured out what to I need to feel confident about leaving Dell. And part of that was choosing a new brokerage, where I was able to get more service and support from my commission split that I would be paying it than I'd had previously. That was important to me as well. But I couldn't shake like I still had this "what if", like, surely this is just a reality that I'm going to be really slow in real estate and I'm not going to have any money and then I'm going to feel this way and my partner is going to be impacted and my gonna lose my relationship. I mean, that's like, that's the road going down– the spiral. And so when it came about that there was a position opening at this new brokerage that I had joined as an agent Success Manager, I was like, "Ooh, what's that?" And then I read the job description, and I was like, "Oh, that sounds perfect for me, actually" because it was, you know, continuing to produce, you know, sell real estate, while also helping agents to sell more, basically, business development with agents at the brokerage, I love to do. I love helping people. So it just seemed like such a, like a miracle felt like a gift from the universe here where I'm going to solve all your problems, you're going to have a regular salary, and you'll still be able to sell real estate and you're just going to be only in real estate, not, you know, one industry plus real estate. So I was hungry for that job. I was like, "I'm gonna get this job." And I did.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:57

So you had your mind on this, and you went and got it. Because that's what you do. And that's honestly part of what you're great at. But also, it sounded like, there were some things since you got settled that really quickly, that weren't in alignment as well as you thought they would be. Tell me about that.

Erin Szczerba 26:15

Well, one of the things I did not think about, because I think I, you know, I had several different bosses at Dell, and some were a better fit for me than others. I'm sure I was a better employee for some of these bosses than some others and a worse employee. But I did not think about what I really needed in a leader or a manager. I made assumptions that certain qualities were there, based on what I knew about the brokerage and the services and the, you know, the competency of the agents. And I definitely... those assumptions led me to not be curious, not ask certain questions and move, just jump in with zero reservations. And then, yeah, I think I could say, it was not a good fit for either me or my leader.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:23

If you could go back and do it over again, what do you think some of the questions you would have asked? Or what would you have done additionally in order to understand more about that?

Erin Szczerba 27:34

Well, I think that I would have asked about, you know, what are the expectations of me as a worker? How do you like to work? Are you... it didn't occur to me, because you can't do this at Dell, right? Like, Michael Dell can't say, "I want all 150,000 of you to do everything the way I would do it." You can't become Dell Technologies if you do that, right? So I had never experienced that before. So I didn't actually know that it could be a thing. Knowing what I know now, I would have gone back and said, "What is the voice of the brokerage? And do I have the flexibility to bring my voice? Or do I need to do this all in a certain way?" Like, those are the things I know now that don't work for me, you know, any sort of restriction around that doesn't work for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:31

Well I think just getting to know you a little bit, you need that type of autonomy. I mean, we all as humans need some level of autonomy. However, what we need as individuals can be drastically different. And I think that's your own... one of the pieces at least of your own personal brand of autonomy that you need that creates much more fulfillment for you. So I can definitely see that and fully appreciate that. That's super cool that you know that now. So bring us full circle here. What caused you to decide, "Okay, you know what, I accepted this role. I went out and got it, I wouldn't did the thing that I'm great at, and it's not a fit." And you made that decision. We already know some of the reasons why it wasn't as great of a fit as what you were looking for. But what cinched the decision for you and then what did you end up moving to?

Erin Szczerba 29:28

Well, ultimately, the decision was made for me to leave that role. And I'm glad because I am not a quitter. So I was very determined to figure out how to make it work because there was so much in that role that the work of it that I really enjoyed. So I was very determined to figure out how to make it work even though I was growing more miserable by the day. And so then, I did have a choice after that. Okay, so I'm selling real estate and I was actively selling real estate when this happened. And I had a choice, do I just sell real estate? Or do I try to find something another sort of filler position? And I talked to, you know, several, very wise people about it, talk to Alistair about it. And the consensus was always the universe has shown you what you need to do. And you need to trust yourself, you're fully competent, you're great at it, it's real estate, you need to sell real estate. And it really was a mindset shift for me. You know, it really was a, I have to look... in order for me to do this, I have to look at the world in abundance. I can't be looking at the scarcity side. Because whichever one I'm focused on is what I'm wanting to get. And so I just really started thinking about what do I want my real estate business to look like. And that's what excites me. And now I get to think about, like, what's important to me is not selling the most real estate of anybody else in the area, I'm never going to do that. I'm not because I don't care that much about having huge sales. I would much rather make an impact on people who... because for me, selling real estate is easy. I've done it hundreds of times. But for the average person who doesn't sell houses every day, trying to figure out how to get from where they are to where they want to be, is really challenging. And it often feels overwhelming. And so they just don't do it. So if I can help people figure out how to get from where they are to where they want to be, and look at what are those obstacles, how do we overcome those obstacles– very much like what Alistair did with me when I was trying to figure out how to go from Dell to real estate, then I'm helping them do something that they wouldn't otherwise be able to do, and that's super fulfilling to me. And as long as I'm focusing on that, I'm going to have plenty. I'll have plenty.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:15

Do you feel like you would have had that mindset shift as quickly? Had you not gone through that set of experiences that we just talked about?

Erin Szczerba 32:24

Probably not, because having been thrust into that position is so much different than saying, "Okay, now I'm ready." I could potentially still be at Dell, you know? Because I just... it would just feel like, was now the right time to pull the trigger? I don't know, you know,

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:44

Roughly 20 years ago when I left an organization, not by my choice, as a regional manager, I spent so long going back and forth. I spent months and months and months and months, going back and forth. And eventually they decided for me, and I think it is, as crazy as it probably sounds to many different people, probably the best gift that they could have given me. I could still be at that organization today 20 years later, like fully unhappy in so many different ways. So I am very thankful for sometimes the weird ways that happens. And you called it the you know, the universe speaking to you. Also, I would say that in addition to that, sometimes it just becomes obvious to everyone else to, like, what your strengths and your gifts are. And sometimes we need a little extra nudge in so many different ways.

Erin Szczerba 33:36

Yeah, totally.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:37

I'm so happy for you that it worked out in this particular way. And I am thankful that we got the opportunity to help out in any part of that. And also, I am curious, what would you advise someone to do? Or what advice would you give for someone who's back in that situation where you were at with Dell, where you realized, "okay, this is not it for me. I know that I need to do something different. But..." you know, what is that? And, like, should I even fully commit to that direction? What advice would you give to that person who's there?

Erin Szczerba 34:19

I mean, I would definitely say that you've got to embrace that you don't know what you don't know. And that if you're feeling at all dissatisfied with where you're at or like maybe there's something more than you've got to go down every, you know, hallway and look at every nook and cranny to figure out what's your sweet spot. And it's so... I think it can be... we can get really small worlds in work, and we can have absolutely no clue what else is out there. And honestly, I mean, the truth, it's because I was listening to your podcast, and I just loved hearing people's stories that I realized like I can... there's something out there, that's the perfect fit for me. I don't know what it is, and I need some help figuring it out, but I believe I'm going to find that thing that's perfect for me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:30

Many of the stories that you've heard on the podcast are from listeners that have decided they want to take action, and taking the first step of having a conversation with our team to try and figure out how we can help. And if you want to implement what you have heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just open your phone right now and open your email app. And I'm going to give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And then when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team. And you can have a conversation with us, we'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and your situation. So open up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line; scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:34

Hey, I hope you loved this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And if this has been helpful, then please share this podcast with your friends, with your family, with your co-workers that badly need it. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 36:53

I think the whole thing is a great evolution because I've always tried to tell myself that what I need to know to move forward is in each step.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:04

Many careers are made up of a string of mediocre jobs. And if you're a high performer, by the way, spoiler alert, if you're listening to this podcast, you likely are a high performer. But if you're a high performer, mediocrity can feel like prison. a prison with no doors, no windows and no escape. Okay, that's actually starting to sound more like a coffin. Anyhow, let me pivot to some great news. Just because you've only ever had mediocre jobs does not mean that's all there is out there. There's so much more. And there is a career that is the right fit for you that actually can help you be more happy more often and influence your level of fulfillment, happiness, Career progress doesn't mean knowing exactly what you want from day one of your career, and so many of us feel like we need to know that like all the time, so much pressure. Oh, and it doesn't mean we're necessarily working to climb the corporate ladder. Career progress is really taking your learnings from each of your roles, even the mediocre ones, determining what you enjoyed about each of them, what worked and using those experiences to build, what we like to call your ideal career profile. All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Haley Stomp 00:01
I had been in a role for about 10 years and we had done amazing things. I had built a team, we had grown the business, so much success, so much fun, but I was at that point where it was more about maintaining an incremental growth. And I was ready, I was hungry for that next thing to challenge me.

Introduction 00:23
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:48
When my youngest son Grayson was born, I remember a shift that took place for me internally, and it went something like this. In my head, it sounded like, "Okay, I now have three small kids at home, and I am at work or commuting like 60, sometimes many more hours a week. And when I'm not there, I'm stressing about work. So something's gotta give, something's got to change." Now, this is similar to what happens for a lot of people. And maybe it's bringing a new child into the world. Maybe it's your favorite coworker find a new job. Something happens externally, where you decide it's time for a priority change, a priority shift. And making that decision alone can seem life changing, but it can also be kind of terrifying. It can seem like, "Okay, I want to leave. I want something new, but has my entire career, all my degrees, my experience, all the time it took to get here, has that been for nothing?

Haley Stomp 01:54
I mean, my job was my identity. So I had to figure out who was I without this job and what did I want to do. And there was some work for me to understand that, just because I left that role, I didn't leave all of my strengths behind. And I didn't leave, you know, who I was behind. All of that was still me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:15
That's Haley Stomp. And as you'll hear in just a little bit, Haley received her degree in chemical engineering, and later pivoted to marketing. She has now accumulated a lot of experience and is currently a fractional chief marketing officer. And just as importantly, if not more importantly, a mom. Haley realized it was time for another career pivot when her priorities begin shifting from her home life and work life, and they were no longer matching. I want you to take a listen in the conversation that I have with her, because you're going to hear how Haley came to terms with leaving the company that she had been at for well over a decade. And what it took for her to figure out what she wanted her career to look like, and how it could truly fit to the rest of her life. Here she is talking about where her career started.

Haley Stomp 03:11
Yeah, I've made a couple of big pivots during my career. So I graduated with a chemical engineering degree. And I went into engineering in a food production company. So I know how to make a lot of different things, breakfast, cereal, fruit, snacks, and cake and all kinds of stuff. So that was exciting. I did that for several years. And then I made a transition from that company to a different company. And when I switched to that job, I started my master's to get my MBA. And during my... when I was getting my degree at night, I started shifting from manufacturing into R&D and project management. And that gave me a whole view of all the different functions in a business. And I realized that marketing was having a lot of fun. They were getting to go do stuff and get out of the manufacturing plant. And so as I was finishing my degree, I tailored my classes to the marketing end. So by the time I got done with my master's, I had been eyeing a marketing job within the same company. I moved into that role. That was a big change for me to go from being an engineer to being charged marketing. And...

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:24
Okay, hold on. Let me ask you about that then. So was that really a case of where you're looking at other people in marketing and be like, "that looks like they get to have all the fun." Or were there other elements there that caused you to say, "Hey, I think I want to lean more towards marketing." Tell me about that.

Haley Stomp 04:42
Yeah, I mean, it was both. I was working on really important projects, but I literally bought a manure spreading truck for a project I was working on. I was working with sulfuric acid, which was dangerous. I was getting called in the middle of the night because pumps weren't running. So I'm doing all of these things that were interesting and exciting and I love the science and I loved that I was doing it. But I was seeing this business side, and people were getting to make big strategic decisions and get outside of those walls of the plant and go places and see people and do things. And I really wanted to be a part of the action.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:17
Is that part of the... I've gotten to know you a little bit over the last year and a half. And one thing that has become very evident to me is, those strategic decisions are something that you are very good at. I'm curious, though, where you started to realize and recognize that, one, that was fun for you. Because it sounds like that was part of what you were alluding to. And then two, that that was something that you were or had the potential to be great at.

Haley Stomp 05:48
You know, I took a bridge role in between engineering and marketing, it was a project manager role. In that project manager role, I could take my project manager skills as an engineer and see all the potential problems, and I got to understand all the functions. And the thing I really liked doing, I got to report to the leadership team on how our project was doing. I get to tell them, "Here's where the problems are, here's where we need money, here's what's going well." And I loved that part of it, trying to direct the decisions and figure out and basically negotiate on the things that I think needed to happen so we could hit the goal. But that role was really, I think, where I discovered my love of being in that position.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:30
So how did that influence then some of the changes that you made after that?

Haley Stomp 06:34
Yeah, so I applied for a marketing role when I graduated and moved out of the project manager role. Got the marketing role. And a couple months into this role, I had a presentation in Belgium. I got to fly to Belgium and give this presentation. And one of the leaders in the company approached me and she said, "Hey, we want to go work with this company in China. And we need somebody to launch this product for us globally, would you be interested?" I was like, "I know nothing about the product. I've never been to China. But yes."

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:05
Sure. That sounds great. Let's do it.

Haley Stomp 07:08
Yeah, and I mean, it was one of those sliding door moments for me where I just took a leap and just did it. It was probably the biggest pivot of my career to go do that, because it pushed me out of my comfort zone. And it just sent me down this track that was really eye opening and developing and changing on what I was going to be doing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:29
What were some of the biggest learnings out of that experience? Living outside your comfort zone.

Haley Stomp 07:38
I learned I couldn't be afraid to fly when you have to get on a 13 hour flight. You have to get over that in a hurry. You know, I think the main thing I learned is that I could do so much more than I gave myself credit for. I mean, I went to Asia by myself for a whole month. And I was also pretty scrappy, and you know, the big learning, I think, when you leave your culture and start working within other cultures, it's just how similar you are. And it was about building those relationships and understanding where people were coming from and building that team. And, you know, they're my teammates, like, a person that sits in the same town as me, they're the same as that in terms of our relationship and what we needed to do together.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:19
I'm also curious, then, what caused you... after you started making these changes, recognizing what you enjoyed more, and then moving up the ladder with this organization, what were the pieces that caused you to recognize that you no longer wanted to move in the same path?

Haley Stomp 08:37
Yeah, I mean, I think my priorities shifted a little bit. I went through, you know, when I didn't have kids, I was doing a lot of this exciting climbing and traveling and all of that. And then when you start to have to balance, you know, a marriage and kids and all of this stuff, you just have to reprioritize a little bit. So I think it was that balancing act was definitely, you know, a reason to shift and think about how am I going to do all of this. And I think too, I've always had a project mindset. So as an engineer, you could be a process engineer, project engineer, I tended to be a project engineer. I wanted to start in an end date. And I wanted to see that. And then I wanted to move on to the next thing. And so I think there were a couple points where I was like, "Alright, I feel like I've gotten this to a good point, I need the next thing."

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:27
I need this project to be over and move on to a different.

Haley Stomp 09:30
Right. For the next one. Because this is more about maintaining, and more incremental growth, where I was looking maybe for some of those opportunities to make those big shifts.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:40
So that's really fascinating. I think even that mindset of having a project outlook, and I found that that can be really helpful for people because when we're in a...what was the name of the last role you're at?

Haley Stomp 09:54
Senior Vice President of Global Marketing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:56
Yeah. When you're in, you know, that type of role where you're Senior Vice President of Global Marketing, it's perpetual, like, it just...it goes on. It is not necessarily something that unless you are treating it as a project with open and close and, you know, maybe even experimental type mindset, then it is perpetual. And I think that in itself creates a lot of challenges when other things start to change in your life, like, you describe, "hey, you know, I was married and had kids and there became other different priorities that started to become very important as well. And when something's perpetual or non-project, then it's harder I found to even think about, like, stepping away or changing the landscape or moving on to the next project or whatever." So I'm curious what that was like for you and whether you found the same experience, or what advice you might give to someone who's in that situation.

Haley Stomp 10:55
You know, I think one of the big learnings I've had in the last couple of years is that there are phases in life. You know, you go to college, and your eyes on the prize. I'm gonna get my degree, I'm gonna get this job, I'm focused on my career. And oh, by the way, I want to get married and have kids, but I'm focused on my career, focused on my career, and you're kind of going through your 20s. And even for me, I would say, my early 30s, like, this was all just going to work out. And I think the last couple of years, I really realized that, look, I'm in a different phase now. There was an article recently that I ran across where it talked about the three phases of a woman's career, and it was so helpful to say, "Oh, wait, this is normal. There are phases in a career. And as I'm getting older, as the things in my life priorities are changing, it's okay. It's normal that your career is going to look different along these phases." And that you're not just going to put the gas down 100% until you die, I mean, it's okay to kind of work everything together. And maybe that was the realization that this phase of my life needs to all fit together or stack together. It doesn't have to be– my career is driving everything and I'll try to fit everything in there. It's more like– how do I make this phase of my life ideal with all of the factors that are in it? So, you know, on your project versus perpetual, I think it was about giving myself permission to say, "I get to design the space on how it works for me, instead of just following along the career trajectory and hoping everything else fits in."

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:34
That makes a lot of sense. What made you finally decide that I'm going to make a career change from that role, that situation, that organization? What took place that caused you to decide?

Haley Stomp 12:50
Yeah, so two years before I left, I had been in a role for about 10 years, and we had done amazing things. I had built a team, we had grown the business, so much success, so much fun, but I was at that point, like, I was talking about that project versus perpetual where it was more about maintaining an incremental growth. And I was hungry for that next thing to challenge me.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:12
That all the project.

Haley Stomp 13:13
I was ready. And so I was at a decision point internally in the company to... do I look outside, or do I look for something internal. And timing worked out really well for me to try this global role to go back to the global role. And putting my Superwoman cape on, I was going to spend half the time out of the country and do this amazing job. At the same time, my kids were starting to need more from me in terms of activities and eating and whatever it was, you know. So I think it was a little bit of a perfect storm in terms of it was the ultimate challenge. I tried to...I think about, like, watching the Olympics, and different dives have different difficulty ratings. I feel like I stepped into, like, "Okay, the highest difficulty rating. So if I perform it here, I should get a really good score, because the difficulty rating of everything I'm trying to do at once is pretty high." But I mean, I grew so much in those two years. And that was such a good experience. And it was a good decision to make that move, but COVID hit, and I think, holding all the balls that we had going in the air at the same time, COVID was finally the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of trying to keep all of these things moving at the same time, and it was just not sustainable.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:34
What was the final thing? If you remember. If there was one thing that caused you to say, "Okay, this is I'm making the change."

Haley Stomp 14:44
I remember the day that I was like, alright, something's got to change. I was on a conference call. And I'd been on several conference calls and you know, I'd been really trying to keep it all going. And I just dropped off the call, and I got in my car–I left work, I got in my car, and I drove to my parents house. And I just said, "Look, I don't know if I can go back to work tomorrow, like, how am I going to get up tomorrow? I have all these things that need to be done. I need to talk about this." And so in the bucolic small town, Iowa way, we went to an apple orchard and bought some apples, we had a nice dinner, we talked about it. And the next morning, I got up, I called into the next conference call and drove home while I was on the call, and was like, "Alright, I'm gonna get through this. But I've made a decision that I need to make a change. And I need to figure out how to do that." So my project manager hat was going to go back on and say, you know, "What's my action that I need to take to get out of this place?" And I didn't mention this before. But earlier in my career, I had another moment where I was like, "things were not going well, I need to leave." And I gave myself, at that point, I gave myself three months, I said, "I'm doing this for three months, and I'm going to make it work. And if in three months, I haven't fixed it, then I will make a decision." And luckily, at that point, three months later, it was all going great. But in that pivot point in 2020, I just... I could feel that I needed to upset the applecart in an even bigger way to make it better.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:24
After you made that decision, do you remember what it felt like at that point in time? What did that feel like?

Haley Stomp 16:31
Honestly, relief. I had a sense of relief, like, "Okay, I've made a decision." And I think, you know, I've noticed that a lot along the way. And Mo and I have talked about that, too, that... he told me "action brings clarity", and making the decision one way or another is such a relief, and it may not be the right decision, but man, just making that decision feels good. And it's like, alright, I made this decision. Now I can start moving on whatever plan is following that decision.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:01
That is amazing. I also have felt that. And now actually, strangely, I use that as an indicator for whether or not I felt like making the right decision for me. If I'm getting some of those sense, same senses and feelings after I've made that decision that helps validate it. That said, though, I'm curious, what advice would you give to people who are in those same sorts of situations who are trying to make those types of decisions for themselves? Because it's hard.

Haley Stomp 17:31
You know, it's really hard. And I think so much about this. And I think from some of my other friends and contacts, too. I wish that I had a coach while I was still at my last job. I wish I had hired a career coach while I'm just within my company trying to make decisions and it's lonely at the top. And the farther you move up in a company, especially when you've been there for a while, people have seen you at different levels. And so when you get to the top, it's hard to find the right people to admit that you're not sure what to do, or you need help. And so you have to build that network. And yes, you build it within. But I absolutely think building it outside of where you're at is so helpful. And you know, when I left, I made a huge effort to build my personal board of advisors. And I had, I mean, I joined a women's networking group, I have Happen To Your Career, we have the Happen To Your Career group. Outside of that, I had my therapist, I had my friend who wanted help marketing, she started her life coaching business, so we were trading hour for hour. And then I had some other people that I... I just made a list, like, these are the people that are going to support me. But if I look back, I wish...I'm like, "Man, I would have enjoyed work more before if I would have done some of those things earlier. If I had worked harder to put that together." I just want to tell any HR person out there, any manager out there, help your people get that network, because it would be so beneficial.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:38
[19:00] It creates a much healthier place to operate from is how I've always thought about it. As opposed to not having that network and having all those questions, like, should I be doing this? Should I not be doing this? Is this right for my career? Is this...like all the million things that go through and I've experienced the same thing, the further up you go in any organization, no matter what size it is, small or large, it definitely becomes far more challenging to find people to where you can talk through things like that, and it's still appropriate and productive and useful for the other people as well and yourself.

Haley Stomp 19:39
Yeah, and you know, we put a lot of pressure on people's managers, but I think finding a mentor is helpful, but the thing I liked about having a coach is, that person is dedicated to helping me. And, you know, in my case, Mo was seeing all kinds of other people in similar positions and so it was really helpful to hear, "Oh, you know, luckily there are a lot of other case studies and other people where we can draw information and draw experience from" and that was very helpful for me too.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:08
You're the third person I've talked to today, that is... No, but seriously, though, like all joking aside, I can completely appreciate where that is very helpful. Because if it's normalized, whatever it is, whatever we're talking about, whatever type of challenge, if it's normalized, that alleviates some of the feelings of craziness, or whatever else, you know, other people might feel, I'm not even sure what to call that feeling, honestly.

Haley Stomp 20:36
I think there's so much responsibility. As a leader, you're trying to be there for your people, and you're showing strength, and you're showing resilience and all of those things. But it doesn't mean you wouldn't benefit from somehow, you know, or somebody to talk through these things with. And from the female perspective, when you work with a lot of males, sometimes it can be intimidating or hard to say, "Hey, I don't know what to do here, because you're already trying to look like you know what you're doing." So that was another factor sometimes, too is, "can I find another female who's like 10 years older than me to just kind of tell me how it's going? What do I need to do?" You know.

Scott Anthony Barlow 21:14
Yeah. When you look back, after you made that decision to make a change, and then as you started exploring what your next steps would look like, what was most challenging? Or what surprised you along the way?

Haley Stomp 21:32
I had to, I mean, my job was my identity. So I had to figure out who was I without this job? And what did I want to do? And there was some work for me to understand that, just because I left that role, I didn't leave all of my strengths behind. And I didn't leave you know who I was behind. All of that was still me. I could take that with me. And then I just needed to look for the next place to apply it. So I think it was an unraveling that idea of, you know, am I a failure for leaving this role? Was it because I couldn't handle it? Was there something wrong with me that I couldn't do this? And kind of getting to the point where, "no, that's absolutely not the case." And I think there was also a really positive feeling the day that I posted on LinkedIn that I had left that role. So many industry contacts had complimented the work I had done to that point. And I think that was all learning to say, "All right, I did this for a really long time. I've banked all this, this is my experience, and no one can take it from me. And I don't need to feel bad about making this decision for myself. It's okay, it's good." And again, life has phases, you make these changes, you don't have to stay at the same place your whole career. And sometimes it's okay to do that for yourself.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:56
Why do you think that's so hard for so many of us?

Haley Stomp 23:00
Well, I mean, it's safe and comfortable and you know what you're doing, you've got that structure, you know, the bad and the good already, you don't have to learn that. And you have your network, and you have all of that, I think it's scary to let it all go. And just kind of be out there by yourself. And I think that's really hard. And the other thing, you know, when you're a manager, you don't want to leave your people, you feel bad about, "oh, I don't want to..."

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:26
That sense of responsibility. Yes, pervasive.

Haley Stomp 23:29
Yes. And then you have to remind yourself that look, any of these people could leave tomorrow. You have to be kind of selfish. And it can be hard to be selfish about those things when you've been trained to be in a leadership role, where your main job is to help develop people and to help your team, you know, to say, "Alright, I need to be selfish about what I need" especially after surviving the pandemic together, it can be really hard to just say, "All right, I gotta do this for me."

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:57
Yeah. So let's talk about that for just a second. I think that's really fascinating that you use the word selfish there, because I would argue that changing pieces so that you can make sure that you're taken care of, as well as taking care of your kids, your family, it's probably not actually that selfish, but it definitely feels selfish. I jokingly and seriously use that word a lot. I'm like, "go ahead and be selfish, like for a minute." But what do you think for you that feels selfish to where we need to use that word? Because you're not a selfish person. You're the furthest thing from selfish person that I can think of. Still, though, it feels that way. So tell me about that.

Haley Stomp 24:41
I will tell you, it doesn't feel that way anymore.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:43
That's great.

Haley Stomp 24:44
Yes, I think at the time because you spend so much time building these things and you're so committed, you know, maybe we take so much out of the success and the things that we're able to do. It's really tangible. The rewards of working and doing that are very tangible. You get paid. You see you get praised. You see the results on a budget, on a sales sheet. You can really touch and feel those, the success of what you're doing. And so it's a very tangible way to see that what you're doing matters. It's not always tangible to see that I made chicken for my kids, and they're super happy. That's not...

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:25
Sometimes they're not super happy.

Haley Stomp 25:28
Yeah, actually, I guess they don't really like my cooking. But I think we tie so much of our worth into that and who we are into that. And, you know, and especially me, being a female in a more male dominated area for so long, being a first generation college student, I mean, I remember thinking at some point, I'm done. I don't have to prove anything to anybody else anymore. Like, I'm done, I can be done with that. And now it's about what works for me in this part of my life. And I only have eight more years till my kids go to college. And what do I want that next eight years to look like?

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:03
Yeah, we've definitely had that conversation many times over. Ours like, there's only this much time for this, for the kids, for... And that is definitely a driving force for me as well. I am also really curious, you said, "Hey, I don't feel that way anymore. I don't feel like it is selfish in the same way that I did at the time." What changed for you and what did you have to do for yourself, in order to get to that point to be able to look at it differently?

Haley Stomp 26:36
Well, I started writing, and I think that was helpful. I also think when I finally started talking to other people about other jobs, and explaining my experience, the reaction I would get with sometimes surprising. You know, when you're at the same place for so long, and you're always pushing and being pushed, and doing things, you don't actually realize maybe, you don't appreciate everything you've done, not everybody spinned up all the countries I've been to, not everybody's done the things I've done, but it's hard to realize that when you're in it. And so I think when I started looking at other opportunities and talking to other people, it was nice to see their reaction to, oh, you know, and just realize that, alright, there is value without this company, there's value without my title. My experiences here, I'm very comfortable and confident in what I have done. And so I think it was just starting to reach out and look at other positions and realize and be able to compare all those years, and what all that experience looks like, compared to other potential roles. And also just honestly, just talking to other people who have done it, listening to the podcast, I mean, you have so many good examples of nothing fell apart when they quit and found the next thing. Every one of those is this...

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:50
Life's going on. Crazy isn't it? Like, life still went on.

Haley Stomp 27:54
Alright, that was a huge thing for me like, oh, it's cool. If I don't leave the country for a month, guess what, I still have cool things to do. There's people to meet, life is going on, all around me outside of where I was at. And I just... I needed to actually see it to believe it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:11
Okay, let's go all the way back to when you made that decision. And you were maybe even just before that decision, maybe the month prior to that, because we have a lot of people that are listening to the podcast that are in that place right now. And they are considering, "Hey, do I stay? Do I go? If I went, what would that look like? What does the world is?" All the things that you know, having been there, run through all these crazy things that run through your mind. And also some of the not so crazy ones, too. And you don't necessarily know which ones or which. But what advice would you give to that person who's in that place? Who's trying to decide, you know, should I make a career change? If so, what does that look like? What does a better life or better career look like for me? What is extraordinary look like?

Haley Stomp 29:01
Yeah, I mean, well, if they're listening to the podcast, that's a great start. Because for me, it was just so helpful to hear other people make that decision and come out okay on the other side, that was really helpful. And I still have it up in front of me, on my board, the ideal career profile, like writing down here is what I want it to look like. And then you could even, you know, what I ended up doing was I made a spreadsheet with here all the things I want, here all the opportunities, and I would score it, and it would give me a really quantitative objective look at this. I mean, people could do that where they're currently at too, to see what was missing. You know, when I when I used to coach my team members, I'd be like, "Alright, you're not happy where you're at, but can we design something internally first? Can we look at that?" But I mean, honestly, I hate to be a broken record, but hire a coach. Go get yourself a career coach.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:58
It's says so much easier. I very much have been in the camp over and over again. And my identity used to be built on, I can figure this out myself, like very, very much strong, like my dad is a wonderful, really wonderful role model. And also, he's the type of guy who just figured out like, never pay for anything. So that was what I grew up with. And well, in some cases, I'm still releasing that. And it's just, there are many things in life, it's just harder or impossible to do on your own. So I really appreciate that advice, not just because we have a team of coaches working with people all over the world.

Haley Stomp 30:36
Well, and I think, I mean, it's really daunting when you haven't updated your resume, or really been on LinkedIn, because you've been happy for a long time, or when you haven't done any of those things, it's so overwhelming to think about, I don't even know where to find a person to help me or how to do this. And so a couple years ago, I found somebody to help me rewrite my LinkedIn and my resume, just in case, you know, and I found Happen To Your Career by Googling, you know, and I was like, and I compared it with a few other things and less like, this one feels good. But I just kind of had to take some leaps of faith to find some of those resources. Because when you have to start, you have to start somewhere, I think that's the thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:18
One last fun fact before we go. I feel really fortunate that I get to interact with a lot of our clients, not all of our clients, but you and I got to meet along the way. And that doesn't necessarily happen for everyone. But then later on, we actually talked about a role here at Happen To Your Career, which is something that doesn't happen all the time at all. And what was really cool, you mentioned your ideal career profile, which you said, "Hey, I still have up" and your ideal career profile, you know, helped us realize that what we were talking about at the time, it just honestly was not the right opportunity for you. And I think that that is so cool. And evidence of like, hey, that working and you staying in line with what is true for you.

Haley Stomp 32:02
Yeah, I think that was so helpful. And you know, there were a lot of times along the journey where I was like, I should take this job, you know, or I should take these jobs because I should get a job. And it was... it took a lot of patience and willpower and practice to say no to things that weren't right.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:19
That's so hard.

Haley Stomp 32:20
Yeah. But as I went along, it got a little easier. But there are definitely points where I was like, I should probably just take this job. And I'm glad I didn't do that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:31
Well, kudos to you because I know how hard that is. And we've seen that same challenge with, at this point, thousands of people. And that is no easy feat. And it says something about the work that you did to get up to that point to where you could see that, yes, it feels like I should take this. But no, I shouldn't. Because it conflicts with all of my other priorities and what I hold dear and what is important to me in the next opportunity. So nice job.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:03
Many of the stories that you've heard on the podcast are from listeners that have decided they wanted to take action, and taking the first step of having a conversation with our team to try and figure out how we can help. And if you want to implement what you have heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just open your phone right now and open your email app. And I'm going to give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And then when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team. And you can have a conversation with us, we'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and your situation. So open up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line; scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:08
Hey, I hope you loved this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And if this has been helpful, then please share this podcast with your friends, with your family, with your co-workers that badly need it. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 34:26
The price tags are just made up. Somebody writes a price on your job the day before you walk in to talk about it. And whether you negotiate or not is a choice you get to make.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:39
Let's time travel into the future for just a moment. It's a few months down the road, you've been working on a career change, finding the right organization, determining what matters most to you, all the things, you've been doing that for months now and your commitment has paid off. You've just received an offer from the organization that you want to work with very most, it's pretty much a wonderful fit all the way around. Okay, so you finish popping some champagne, you do some happy dancing, it's now time to negotiate. You might be thinking, "What? Negotiate and risk losing this amazing offer?" And that's so commonly the response. Or even if you're willing to negotiate, so many people think that it is a struggle, and it is something that they don't want to do, and it's undesirable. I want you to think about it like this, receiving that offer means, out of every single person that was considered for position they want you. Now, the balls in your court. So how do you propel yourself for that conversation? How do you make this amazing offer actually everything including on the finance side, including on the offer side, including the other things that can be structured into an offer? How do you make it all that you thought it could be into your ideal?

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:07
All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.