Melissa Shapiro 00:01

I was really nervous to get back out there just because of being laid off. I was so scared that it would happen to me again. And I think our brains do that to us. Like once we go through something, that's our experience, and that's what we know. So we are told that that's just going to repeat itself.

Introduction 00:24

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:49

I don't think that there's an ideal time to get laid off or really ever to completely change your career. Happen To Your Career, we've worked with a whole bunch of people that have gone through pretty dramatic situations. It's one thing when you get tired with feeling stuck and decided to make a change. It's another thing when your company calls you and tells you that your time is up. It leaves people feeling pretty uneasy or scared, to put it mildly. You have a tendency when this happens, and I've been there. You feel like your life is out of control, or at least out of your control. But a professional setback might actually lead to a far better opportunity that you've never ever considered before. Our story today is someone who is already contemplating a career change, but that was then laid off before she could position herself for the next move. She discovered that evolving and adapting weren't only important for success, they were absolutely necessary to move up in the professional world.

Melissa Shapiro 01:47

I had that mindset of, "Okay, this next thing, this is going to be it. Like, this is my career. I have to pick the one thing that I'm going to do for the rest of my life."

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:00

That's Melissa Shapiro. She found herself in this really difficult situation. She took her newfound time and energy to focus on asking herself big questions that led to her successful career change.

Melissa Shapiro 02:12

So I basically have a very eclectic background. And, you know, I'm an artist, and I love to sing and perform. And I was actually working as a senior admissions producer at the General Assembly. And I was there for about two years, speaking with students who were really interested in making a career change into the tech world. And I would sort of talk about our programs that we offered, such as a digital marketing program, UX/UI, software development data, and talk about these 12-week life changing bootcamps that the students could take and really make a career change. And that's sort of where all of this fun stuff happened, where I got super interested in helping people with their career changes. I was in the same role for probably about two years. And the part that I loved was kind of the part that I just described, in terms of forming relationships with people and really kind of getting to know their backgrounds and helping them make that career change. But the other part of the role that was the part that I didn't want to pursue anymore was that it was a very sales oriented role in terms of quotas, and having that pressure in terms of filling up our classes and everything like that. So it was just the sales aspect of things that I wanted to get away from and I wanted a more genuine type of relationship building role.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:44

When you say genuine type of relationship built, what does that mean for you?

Melissa Shapiro 03:49

Yeah. For me, it means that I would be able to talk to people, clients, and students when I wanted to, in terms of when I see fit, and what it would contribute to our goal, whatever that was at the time. And not to fill some sort of quota and fill a sales number basically.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:14

So was there a, as you were realizing this, was there a time or an 'aha' moment where you're like, "You know, what? Been here for two years. It's time that I transition on to something that's even a better fit." How did that happen for you?

Melissa Shapiro 04:28

Yeah. I think that I was, you know, as we all feel frustrated, and I knew that there were aspects of the role that I really did enjoy. It wasn't like, I hate everything about this that I must leave. But yeah, it got to the point where it was just very, very frustrating. And once you met your quota for that quarter, another quarter would start and you would just kind of start all over again. And it was sort of this never ending cycle. And I felt kind of trapped, in almost like the sales cycle and the numbers of everything. So I just got to a point where I knew that there was just something that was out there for me that was not so sales oriented, and that could still utilize my strengths. And I didn't necessarily know what that was or what it was called. But I felt in my gut that I knew it was there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:22

Do you think that since you had transitioned before, because you mentioned offhand, and I know a little bit more to the story. But you had come from a background where, like you said, you were more into performance. And I think you said you enjoy singing, and you had come from that type of area in industry and sector, whatever you want to call that. And you've made this transition the first time around. Did that have any play here into coming to this realization easier? Or it did not really factor in? Tell me how you were thinking about that at the time.

Melissa Shapiro 05:58

Yeah. I think that was a much harder transition from thinking that you wanted to do performance and musical theater and, you know, opera for your entire life, and then realizing that it's just not a lifestyle for you, and that it would never sort of be aligned with your personality and how you want to live your life. I think that was sort of a more really intense realization for me that this thing that I've studied and worked so hard, and training for was not going to be for me. So I think that once I went through that, the other career transitions seemed a lot easier. Because after that big life changing one, I think once you get through something like that, then all of these kinds of pivots in your career and figuring out next steps become a lot more second nature.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:54

That's so interesting that you put it that way. Because we've seen that a lot behind the scenes and working with people too that it is, how do you want to put it, it is worth it to go through that type of initial transition because of what it teaches you and then makes every single consecutive transition of any kind, more possible, easier, whatever word that you want to use all of the above, in there. So that's really interesting that you observed that in that particular way. So how then did you go about once you had this, the second transition, you're there, you're working, you're in admissions, and you're having this realization that, "You know what, this isn't quite what I want. I enjoy the small piece of it, but certainly not some of the other aspects." What did you end up doing from there? How did that play out?

Melissa Shapiro 07:44

Yeah. So, sort of, at the end of my stint in admissions, I worked on a project with the instructional design team, and I revamped our entire onboarding process, which to me was really interesting, because it combined my education experience with the experience that I had in admissions at General Assembly and using my two years as an admissions producer to refine the way that we onboard new admissions producers. And that was sort of, it was interesting because it combined a lot of different aspects of my skill set that I had never really even thought of before. That was a really cool project. And I got to work with the instructional design team. And I had a really good time doing it. And then I started thinking about possibly doing course creation and things like that. And I had a small period as an instructional designer that I did sort of get to do that. But then unfortunately, I was laid off after three months from that job. So that was right before I entered into the Career Change Bootcamp, but it was still just really interesting. And I would, from that, I would kind of say, I would encourage people to really look in terms of their role holistically and see, "What am I interested in?" Maybe it's not a completely other different role at the company, but what can I do in my role that I could bring more of myself." And that's sort of what I learned from that experience, that you could always look for opportunities and sort of jump on, when you find something interesting and see where that takes you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:27

I think that's so great. First of all, because, one, if you're not actively looking for those opportunities, as you put them, to bring more of yourself to a particular situation, whether that's a job or interaction, whatever it happens to be, you're unlikely to find them. It's not going to, a lot of the times, just show up. And that's part of what I think can lead people down the road to frustration. So I think that that's super cool, that you were actively looking for was opportunities in one way or another. Because clearly, it gave you more input and more feedback into some of the things that you do enjoy. And it also gave you more input and feedback into what you can do and whether or not this could be another good situation for you, in one way or another.

Melissa Shapiro 10:19

It's a great skill set to have too. I have a portfolio piece of it, you know.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:24

Do you, really?

Melissa Shapiro 10:25

Yeah. I have what I designed. So I gotta keep that, which is pretty cool. And you know, something you can kind of pull out of your back pocket.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:34

I made this.

Melissa Shapiro 10:37

I did that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:39

Very cool. So then, there was this stint in between, and you got the opportunity to experiment with that in some ways. Obviously, you got laid off from there, then we got the opportunity to interact with you in Career Change Bootcamp. So what happened at that point? Because this wasn't just instant magic, or anything else along those lines, like, boom, make the next shift, or boom, I figure out what I want to do for the rest of my life. That's not how it works. But what did happen for you?

Melissa Shapiro 11:08

Oh, yeah. At that point, while I was looking into Career Change Bootcamp for a while, even when I was at, you know, General Assembly and just doing some research, in terms of wanting to figure out something that would be fulfilling for a while for me, I think that it was finally the right time. And I didn't know that I would be getting laid off from this job. And I signed up for Career Change Bootcamp, I think it was like, a week before I got laid off, which was just insane. The timing. And I just started it. And I remember I wrote you guys, and I was like, "I just got laid off from this job. I'm so happy that I enrolled in this program." And it just was the perfect time. And I had the time now to invest into the Career Change Bootcamp.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:03

That's so funny, because I would say that after interacting with literally thousands of people that have gotten laid off, in one way or another, that rarely is there a good time to get laid off. However, I think your situation falls into the small percentage of folks that may be created that good time. And I think that that's something that I've observed just as I've gotten to know you a little bit. That part of the reason, timing has a tendency to work out great for you, is because you're continuously taking one action or another, always looking forward in terms of, "Hey, what can I be doing? Where is that opportunity? What is the next step? What is going to push me forward in the way that I want to?" And so I would advocate that maybe it wasn't entirely luck, that it was, although you can't control all circumstances or anything like that, that part of the reason it created a good time was because you had some involvement with it. Is that a fair statement?

Melissa Shapiro 13:02

It's fair. I had been interested in Career Change Bootcamp for a while, but it still, just was that, it was what I needed. You know, it was that positive light in that time of ,sort of, complete shock.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:16

Yeah, absolutely. When you think back to that time where you got laid off, and you were just beginning to work with us, and just beginning to really go through this type of transition, again, if you will. What were some of the first things that you did that really helped set you up to make this a good transition for you?

Melissa Shapiro 13:38

Yeah, I really had that time, like I said. So in my mind, I said, "Okay, I'm going to take advantage of this time. And I'm really going to get focused. And I'm going to put all of my energy into investing into this program, because that's the best gift that I can give myself." You know, I was getting severance. I was getting unemployment. So I wasn't super, super stressed. But I would rather take more time to find something that was more aligned with what I was looking for, than just jumping into something else. So it did take a little bit longer than I wanted it to, but I think it was still pretty fast in terms of the way things move job wise. But that's what I said to myself. I said, "Listen, use this as a gift. Really use this time and jump into this program, do everything you need to do and more network, reach out to people on LinkedIn, reach out to all of your connections and really take advantage of this opportunity."

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:42

What do you feel like were some of the harder parts for you as you made this transition?

Melissa Shapiro 14:47

Yeah, I think just some actually raw human emotion and feelings. I think I was really nervous to get back out there just because of being laid off. I was so scared that it would happen to me again. And I think our brains do that to us, like, once we go through something, that's our experience, and that's what we know. So we are told that that's just going to repeat itself. I think what was hard was still continuing to have that frustration and sending out those messages and applying for jobs and then tailoring all of my materials and just having that frustration of, "Why isn't it happening now? Why isn't it happening faster?" And I think we all experienced that. But I think just to focus on keep doing what you're doing, and not that necessarily what you're doing is wrong. It's just not everyone is going to get back to you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:38

What did you do? Or what did you experience that worked well for you to help speed up the process? Or what are the things that you saw, as you were going through it that like, "Yeah, this is working for it", and gave you those little glimmers of hope, even though it didn't feel like it was going as fast as you wanted?

Melissa Shapiro 15:58

I had so much time too. I wasn't doing another job while I was job searching. So I had been putting all my effort into it. It was just a little frustrating to put 150% into it and getting little things here and there. But just not hearing from as many people as I wanted to. But I think what worked well for me was following the bootcamp modules, and really following the order and doing each module diligently and then having the next one sort of build upon the one beforehand. And having a curriculum that just made sense, I had never gone through an actual career coaching, like bootcamp and course. So I think this particular model was really helpful for me in terms of figuring out what my strengths are, how to build upon those strengths, what other people said my strengths were that I knew, and building my ideal career profile, and then learning how to reach out to people properly, really following up, asking the right interview questions, really being able to advocate for myself, because I knew myself so much better throughout that process. And therefore my interviews were way more genuine and sincere. And obviously, I mean, Kelly was just wonderful and had such great suggestions. Any question I had for her, she would answer and just have really, really good innovative ideas.

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:29

Okay, so I have one big question that, because we've got... Everybody that's listening to this right now, that most of the time, all of our listeners are in the place where they are wanting to make a change, in the process of making the change, or thinking about making the change. And I want to take you back to where you were going to make a change because this was thrust upon you in one way or another and didn't expect it. And although the timing worked out well for you, as you said, it was still a little bit worrisome, and still a little bit scary in terms of, "Hey, well, what if this happens again, or anything else?" So when somebody's in that place, and they're right on the beginning stages of making change for one reason or another, what advice would you give them?

Melissa Shapiro 18:21

I would say, do whatever you need to do to fight the fear, then just do it. You're going to have those voices, you know, you're going to have the negativity, you're going to have your mind try and play tricks on you and bring up prior experiences or things that you were scared of that happened in workplace settings before. And you really have to just tell your brain, "No, this is new. This is different. We're trying a new approach this time, we're going to get what we want. And we're going to advocate for ourselves." And I think that, you know, in every situation, I think our minds play tricks on us. And I think we need to have the self love and self respect for ourselves to be able to talk those voices down and to be logical and loving to ourselves.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:09

What do you feel like worked for you to do exactly that? To fight that fear and be able to control those voices, or at least fend off those voices that are in your head.

Melissa Shapiro 19:20

Well, I'm someone who do meditate every day. And I think that's something that helps me really focus. But it takes practice. I think just really knowing yourself and doing that work to understand what those anxieties are for you, it's different for everyone, obviously, based on all of our previous experiences, but to really listen to what's fear based versus what's based on fact. And I think sometimes journaling, sometimes doing a visualization, whatever you need to do to kind of figure out what the differences are, I think that's what you need to do and then you need to talk to that voice and just say, "This is a fear based voice. This is not reality. This is something that's trying to stop me from making this change." Because change is unknown, as we all know, and our brain protects us from the unknown. So just really applying that positivity, "This is going to be better than where I am now. This is only going to get better." So just reaffirming that over and over.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:25

I think that's great. And I also, speaking of fear, speaking of change, and speaking of resisting change, or even continuous change, you and I, before we hit the record button, had a little bit of a conversation about how this is continually evolving for you, too. And one of the things I heard you say at the beginning of our conversation right now, is that one of the things that you really responded or gravitated to was helping people make different types of choices. And we got to talk a little bit about your interest in continuing to help people do that in their career down the road, as well, and even expressed interest about becoming a career coach in one fashion or another. And I think that's super cool. Obviously, I'm a little biased. We've got an entire team of career coaches. So you might imagine that I'm a fan. However, I think the thing that was really interesting to me is, you've done such a great job of jumping into this idea of, it's not a... make the decision, figure out the perfect thing, and then be done with it. Instead, it is really this mentality of continuing to evolve what it is that you want. I think you've done such a great job of that. So I'm curious, what has helped you in getting there to think about it that way? And then two, what advice would you offer other people in that realm too, about how to think about their career and their life as it relates to what they want to need and that evolution?

Melissa Shapiro 21:52

That's a good question. And I think that I did have that mindset of, I think part of the pressure too before CCB was that I had that mindset of, "Okay, this next thing, this is going to be it. Like, this is my career. I have to pick the one thing that I'm going to do for the rest of my life."

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:13

Forever.

Melissa Shapiro 22:16

Forever and ever and ever. And I think that is such a scary thought. It really is. I think that thought alone paralyzes us, because we feel trapped. If you think about doing one thing forever, you freeze up. You need to feel like that freedom, that flexibility, because life is changing, and life is ever evolving. And you know, your career is part of your life. I'm not the person I was 10 years ago, even. We are always changing, and we're always evolving. And I think the roadmap that the Career Change Bootcamp gave me is applicable to all of those career stages and all of those changes, because you can keep using it over and over and over again and reevaluate where you are. And that's what's so great about it. It's not like a one time thing, and that's all you can use it for. You can go back, and you can do it all over again, a year later, two years later, 10 years later. So I really appreciated that. And I think learning that formula really made me realize that this is something that is going to evolve, and it's okay. I can let myself evolve. I can continue to utilize this for my life.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:34

What do you think there... Because I know that that pressure is there for many different people. But for you, where did you think that that pressure of, "I must figure this out. And it will be the last time.", and everything else that comes along with it. Where do you think that that came from for you, personally?

Melissa Shapiro 23:50

I think it's a generational thing, to be honest. I grew up with parents who were very much setting their jobs. They are still both doing the same job that they started out doing. So they're both lawyers and they're still practicing, and they're in the same office. And so I think that I just didn't really grow up with people who change their careers. And I think obviously, as time goes on, we're seeing younger generations changing their careers, you know, all the time now. But, I think that's sort of a new thing still, and not everyone is on board with it. And I think there's, you know, there's all of this pressure too, or when recruiters like, look at your resume, and they're like, "Oh, you did so many different things. Like, that's bad. Why can't you stay in one place?" Like, we're still told about that. It's still talked about having different jobs on your resume, a lot of different jobs, not necessarily a good thing. So I think that times are changing and that's ever evolving and I think there's a new kind of status quo on that whole thought process. But yeah, I think to some extent, I think that pressure is kind of still there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:10

That's so interesting that you bring it up in that way. And I appreciate you sharing that. Because I do think that that's something that many people go through for that reason too. I haven't been able to find out like a technical scientific name for why that happens. But internally, here at Happen To Your Career, we call that the "exposure problem". You haven't been exposed to something so you don't even recognize that it could be possible in one way or another. And therefore, it isn't a real possibility in your world until that exposure to it happens in one way, shape, or form. And I know, geez, even for me, coming out of college, I actually used to own a small business, profitable small business, that put me through college and everything. And I actually sold that business when I was leaving college. And then because I didn't realize that that was a real thing. Like you could own a business. And that would be like your job or whatever. And, yeah, so I sold the business and properly went out to find my job in the workplace. And everybody's got a different pathway. But the reason I did that is because I wasn't exposed to anybody else that did that as a real thing. Instead, I was exposed to lots of other people that said, "You go to college, you get a job coming out of college, and then that's what you do forever."

Melissa Shapiro 26:30

Yeah, it is really, really interesting. And to see how that continues to evolve.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:35

Do you, just as we're wrapping up here, I know that for you, you feel like you had lots of time. Maybe compared to even the average person because, you know, the timing, I don't know, the timing converged in near the layoff, like, all that stuff, whatever you'd like to call it. But I've been through transitions that way where I have had literally the entire week, week after week, to be able to sink into finding my next step. I've done that. I've also done it the other way, many times too, where I'm pursuing something at the same time, as I'm working a full time job and have many other obligations, and having done it both ways. Neither is easy. They have different challenges. But my question to you is, what did you find that helped you continually focus on and continue to take action during that short period of time? What worked for you?

Melissa Shapiro 27:35

I think a combination of things worked for me. I think part of it is just the kind of person that I am. I've always been extremely motivated. And I think I had so much time to think and strategize that I really kind of put all my eggs in that basket, for lack of a better term. But I just really like turned on that switch off, "this is what you're going to focus on right now." Like you invested your time and your money in this bootcamp, like let's do that, like, this is it. This is what we're doing now. But I think for a lot of other people, like it's not as easy to get through all of the modules as quickly if they're juggling a million other things. So I would probably just say to schedule it. If you don't have the time, you know, all that time of not having a regular nine to five type of role, I would say to just go into your calendar, literally block the time off every single day, and write down what you're gonna do, and stick to it. Because if you don't map it out, and you don't create the space for it, you're not going to do it. So I mean, your career coach is definitely there to help motivate you, and to help guide you through the process. But it is on the individual as well, to actually do the work. No one can force you to do the work. So I would definitely say that to carve out the time, realize how important it is, realize how important this is for your life and to be happier and block that time out in your schedule.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:11

One of the things I don't think we've ever discussed on the podcast before that I'm curious what your opinion would be, because I think you did a great job with it. How do you feel like people can get the most out of a coach that they're working with? How do you think that they can leverage a coach? And part of the reason why I'm interested in your opinion and perspective on this is because you have been interested in becoming a career coach, too. So you've got kind of all the different sides in there. So what do you feel like has worked for you to really leverage your coach?

Melissa Shapiro 29:42

Yeah, I think, really understanding where the blocks come up. Like you don't have to necessarily speak to your coach about every single thing in every single module just because it's coming up. If you're getting through something and you can easily do that on your own and you understand it and you don't need to question it, then you know, you don't have to bring that up with your coach. So while there is this pathway to the program, your career coaching sessions are planned by you. If you want to focus more time on your five signature strengths module, and you want to understand how that works in real world situations, and maybe like the anti-strength and how that can hinder you, you can focus on that. If you want to focus on your ideal career profile, and why that's important and strategize and kind of get there in the future, you can focus on that. You're not, like, trapped into focusing on one module per coaching session. I would say, to make notes while you're going through the material of things that are coming up for you, maybe, like, blockages or just questions you may have or things you don't understand or want clarity on and mark that down and to really focus on that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:02

Hey if you love this story where we talk through and walk you through step by step how someone got to more meaningful work, then you'll absolutely love our audiobook– Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. I even got to narrate it, which was so fun, and something that I really enjoy doing and will definitely do for future books as well. But it also contains firsthand accounts from career changers on how they made the move to more meaningful work. Just like we include on the podcast here and actually has been called the best audio book experience ever by some reviewers. You can find those reviews and the book itself on Audible, Amazon or any other place where books are sold. Seriously, just pause this right now and go over to Amazon or Audible or wherever you want and download it. You can be reading it and started on your career change in literally seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:57

Now here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week right here on Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 3 32:02

The whole society, "Oh, you should, kinds of things, you should answer questions this way. This is how you should be for a hiring manager, right?" And then six months, it's like, "Wow, I don't like this job. Well, how did I not notice all the things", right?

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:17

We get questions from clients all the time, things like, "How do I stand out in an interview? What do hiring managers actually want to know in this interview?" But these questions, well, we're honored to be able to answer them. I would argue that they're the wrong questions. Do you just want to stand out to stand out just to get a job? Or are you wanting to dig in and make sure this move is intentional and that it's the right fit for you? Interviews, as it turns out, are a two way street. And the first interview is the foundation for setting up the future of your work there. So the true question is, "How do I show up as myself in an interviewer?" Because you don't know what they're going to ask. But there are many things you can do to prepare.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:01

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Brian 00:00

It just got worse and worse and people leaving, getting the wrong people hired into roles and just the culture just got so, so bad.

Introduction 00:15

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:40

In 2007, I had changes in the company that I was working in at the time, that pretty much pushed me in the direction of apathy, like I pretty much didn't care, didn't feel connected anymore. And if this is something that's happened to you, then you're not alone. You're not even close to alone. According to a Gallup study, only 32% of US employees felt engaged at work in 2022. So this is pretty recent, right? Companies seem to be losing their grasp on what employees actually want, or when they're rapidly restructuring and trying to make changes, and when they're trying to navigate the after effects of the pandemic, they're not being successful, many of them, most of them. So if you've been spending your time in a job that is very out of alignment with who you are, or maybe you're surrounded by people that just don't share the same values, they don't place value on the same things that you do, if this is the case, then you'll find that even if you enjoy your day to day job functions, and even if there's many other good things, you're probably going to fall quickly into the category of disengaged, that'll make you ready for a change whether you recognize it or not. And the good news is that well, the number of engaged employees is extremely low, there are in fact organizations out there that have more than doubled this percentage. What does that mean? Well, there's organizations that actually care if you are feeling connected, and enjoying your work and feeling engaged. Pretty cool, right? You just have to find them.

Brian 02:23

Here's the 27 questions that could come up in an interview, and here's like all the canned responses. And it's like, no, let's just get to the values and virtues and get to what actually matters.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:34

That's Brian. He's been a leader who's done many things in his career, managing sales and marketing campaigns, leading teams for well over 20 years. His latest role was vice president of business development. And he'd always put an extreme importance on a company's values and culture. And he'd made many pivots over the years, and done a great job of driving towards companies and organizations that really aligned with what he wanted and what he believed. Pretty cool, right? Not everybody's done that. And currently, he was feeling very, very misaligned. When Brian contacted us here at HTYC, it just been looped into the latest round of company layoffs. For the first time, he no longer felt in control of his career. Very first time, right? And that made him pretty desperate to find a new role fast. And he was applying for all of these jobs, thinking he needed to find a bridge role. And that would allow him to take the time to find the job that he really wanted, that next step in his career. Here's what happened though, fast forward a little bit, he started working with us and he took a step back and realized that everything he was doing was motivated by stress and desperation and fear. He actually had a lot more buffer time than what he thought he did. And he could give himself some space to figure out what had gone wrong in his last role, and what an ideal fit would look like for him this time around. Okay, this is a really very fun interview. Partially because Brian is so self aware. And also Brian knows so much about what he wants. Take a listen and I want you to particularly listen for how he used his ideal career profile, the tool, that super simple tool that we have embedded, and the seven elements of meaningful work so that he could define exactly what he wanted and needed from his next organization to be able to thrive. By the way, the ideal career profile, and to break down the seven elements of meaningful work, those are two things that we detail out in our book– Happen To Your Career. So if you want to know more about them, you can go get the HTYC book, any place where books are sold. I highly recommend the audiobook if you're listening to this podcast. But back to Brian's story, here is where he starts out talking about his very first career pivot straight out of the studio recording industry and into the business world.

Brian 04:58

So I had recently got married, the recording studio itself was not doing terribly well. And it started to cut my hours back. My wife got pregnant and I just looked at as, like, "this is not going to get it done. I got to do something else." My brother-in-law worked in an industry where he was a rep, calling on retail stores, going in training sales associates on software. And he was working for this company, and I had, like, no idea that these types of companies existed where it's basically like temp agencies, but it's temp reps that get hired on to go be marketing reps to call on retailers to train on products. He's like, "He should just come work for our company." And like, well, "What is it you do?" And he's just like, "Well, they got a new contract for HP." Essentially, he was saying that they had this new Hewlett Packard contractor that was coming along where HP was going to launch PCs at retail. And this was in 1985, which rewind the tape just, like, Windows 95 was launching. So a whole new ethical user interface. And HP, what they negotiated was that they were going to be the first PC manufacturer to market with Windows 95 actually installed on the computer versus buying a computer than having it installed. So I got hired to launch HP and Windows 95 at the same time. And I remember, like, literally my first day of work, there was a line that people were waiting to talk to me about Windows 95 and PCs, and I had never touched one. And I just totally wing the whole thing for four hours doing demos for people who like well, there's a start button. So obviously, that's where we started. But I ended up, like, just working my butt off. And I learned a ton and just got promoted up and my managers fell in love with me. And before I knew it, it's like I started off on a team of 13. And within about four years, I had almost 1300 people working for me. And there's just a lot of that was just the tenacity of the "I want to make it better. I want to make it better for the field. I want to give the customers a better experience. I want to give the retailers a better experience." And just like drive and passion to let's make it better. That organization, they sold off the business to another company, and they just lost their culture, it all became about profits and, you know, employees whatever, customers whatever, profit. And so, like, this was not a good fit for me culturally. I left to a much smaller company down in Southern California. They were doing about $4 million annually, but had a lot of autonomy in terms of what we're doing. I worked there as, originally, Director of Operations. I figured if I can get in and really learn the operations, I could really make a difference for everybody. I did that for a number of years. The particular owner was doing some unethical things. And I chose to leave because I just didn't want to get caught up in those things that were criminal, and decided I would start my own company. And I started by long enough to have a cup of coffee quality assurance marketing, went out and got a couple of customers, a competitor of mine called and said, "We don't need one more competitor. Just come to work here. I'll let you do what you want to do." So I did originally came in as Director of Field Services, and the owner of that organization gave me a lot of autonomy. And he's just like, after about a year, he's just like, "You should just run the whole... I'm just gonna make you the Vice President of the retail services group and you just run the business unit."

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:33

Let me ask you about two things about that.

Brian 08:36

Sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:37

One, when you're thinking back, and you're talking about autonomy, what did that mean for you at that time? What did autonomy look like, feel like, smell like, taste like?

Brian 08:49

I think for me, the autonomy came in a couple of different forms. One was trust. That I had somebody that actually trusted me. But the other side of it was having the responsibility and accountability that now I need to go deliver because I have this person that trusts me to do this. And I have my customers that are trusting me, I've got these people that are employees trusting me, that's just like, I felt like I have got to do a great job. And therefore it's just like having that trust and responsibility and accountability. Just like drove the passion in me of "We're gonna make this great."

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:27

Yeah, very cool. Well, and here's why I'm curious because so many people want autonomy. I also recognize that when we ask 10 different people about what autonomy means to them, we very often get 10 unique and very different answers. So I was curious what that meant for you and what it meant for you at that time, too. Because it sounded like you refer to it fondly when you're thinking back to that time.

Brian 09:55

Yeah, that was a fantastic time in my career for certain.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:59

So what happened from there?

Brian 10:01

Yeah, so the owner ended up selling the company off to a company out in Georgia. And that autonomy that just that entrepreneurial spirit that we had, it just wasn't there. I mean, this is a company that backed by a multibillion dollar industry. And it was more about process and systems and structure than it was about, let's just get in there and solve problems and, like, fix things for customers. And it just didn't have that kind of, like, the grittiness to it of let's solve problems versus the more rigid business. So for me, it just wasn't a good fit. But some of the previous team members that I had worked with, had come to this company up here in Oregon. And actually, one of my former directors that had worked for me had called me and was just like, "Hey, we're getting the band back together." He's just like, "You should be here, too." So he ends up, "when we can do to talk?" And like six months later, he's just like, "We just need to get you here." And I ended up coming on at the time as director of business development. And I didn't know anything about business development, I had no business doing business development.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:12

I had no business doing business development, that's a saying. That should be on a t-shirt.

Brian 11:19

But yeah, he's just like, "Look, we just need to get you. And once you're in, like, then we'll just figure out what we're gonna do." Probably about 18 months and the CEO ended up eventually getting sacked by the board, they brought a new CEO in. She just drove the company in the ground, you get coke. I mean, it was just like, one thing after another, and it's just like, the company just continued to flounder. I think it's about seven reps, I got promoted up a few times. I think there was the kind of getting promoted up through attrition of the "Hey, we let all these people go. Now who's going to run the hindsight?" "Here, you've been here a long time, why don't you do it?" And so there was some of that. There was just, we talked about, like, the autonomy and just trying to relate it back to that. There was none of that. It was just like gone, it was like, we're letting the following people go. And it's like, "I'd like to have a say someone who's staying and who's going." It's like, "No, we've already made the decision. Here's who's going." Anyway, fast forward over the course of about 18 months, and it just got worse and worse and people leaving, getting the wrong people hired into roles. And just the culture just got so so bad. And basically, the entire executive team all exited as she built her new team. And eventually, I got caught up in one of the layoffs. And that's what led to me actually working with HTYC. But it's like I sensed it was coming. And so it was like, "Okay, I gotta do something. I can't sit and wait." And so I just like started searching for podcasts, I walked my dog every morning, listen to podcast, I'm a lifelong learner. And so while walking my dog every morning, I'm always trying to learn something new. Started listening to your podcast, and like, "I'll send the email. Sure."

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:57

So a couple things that I'm hearing out of that. One, you have this really, I would say, fascinating track record of, it shows up as a theme here, where you're leaving every time there's not a value fit. And at this last time, it feels like because I hear you tell the story, that it was a little bit different this time out. Because it sounded like you could see some of the writing on the wall. But I think the thing that's really interesting is this move feels very different for you than some of the other moves. How do you think about that now in hindsight?

Brian 13:35

Yeah, that's a good question. So I think that there was this aspect of the, let's not too get caught up in ego. It's the, I think, for me, it was just like, I had been really pretty successful in my career continue to get promoted up wherever I went from being a rep in the field to having a team around the globe, but it was like, I think it was just that I'm getting rejected kind of experience. And then there was the other side of it that was the, "Oh crap. Now what?" This is like, I mean, I haven't really ever had to look for a job, right. So I mean, going back to like, talking about being in the recording studio early in my career, it's just like, one of the teachers of the school was like, "Hey, Brian, I know some guys. I'm gonna get you in." And it's like, and then I went and met with the owner studio. He's like, "Yes." He said, "You're a good guy. You're a good guy. Yeah, you're in." Because like, so it wasn't like I hadn't learned how do you interview and how do you find a job? I was like, "Hey, Steve, I need to get a job. Do you know anybody that would hire me?" He's like, "Yeah." And then like to getting into this industry where my brother-in-law's "I'm going to help you get hired on. I know the manager. I'll get you the job." And so I was like, "Okay, cool." And then it's just like, from there, it was just like people in the industry is like, "You should come work here. I want to hire. Hey, come over here." It's just like, "You should be here." And it's just like, "Oh, yeah, I'm the guy." They want me and then also I was like, "I'm not the guy and I'm not wanted. Now what?" And so like that, like, start reality in the wake up of the "oh crap now what" sort of a thing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:12

What was that like to work through that? I've been there. I've been, as you put it, not the guy. I've been not the guy before. And I have definitely felt that rejection in a couple different past times where the company now and I parted ways and it was not my choice and it, I can't say that I have found where it feels fun, maybe there's a story out there where somebody's like, "Hey, this is fun. This is amazing, but I haven't seen it so far." So for you personally, what did it look like to be able to work through that?

Brian 15:53

I think, you know, one is I was grateful to have been that as a coach to work with and just kind of be a sounding board and is interesting, trying to find the right words, but it's just like there was part of it where, yeah, it was to help me with the career but it almost felt more like a life coach in Oregon with Ben in terms of just being the Star Trek, the ship's counselor, if you will.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:20

Yeah, absolutely. And for reference, Ben is a phenomenal coach on our team. And so you've got this ship's counselor, I love the tricky reference. And then what do you feel like that did for you? Or how did that help you work through this piece?

Brian 16:20

I think that for me, it was the help. It was like a grounding cord. I went through just a lot of stress and anxiety of the, "oh, now what" sort of a thing and just being able to actually have somebody that can sit and it's like, "Okay, well, let's just play this out." Worst case scenario, you don't get a job in six months, what do you need to do and just like, it's not as bad as I thought it was gonna be, you know, I was just kind of like, start making a list of all the things that I'm doing. It's like, I have time, this was like, I can figure this stuff out. It's not like that, "Oh, I'm going to die if I don't get this answer in the next 24 hours." It was, "I can make this work." And just take a breath, get grounded and breathe. And I think and having that, as I started doing interview prep and applying for jobs, I think having more of like the being at peace and not being desperate, or for button a positive connotation, having confidence, I think that that translated to the way that I began to interview of the, "I'm going to interview you, yes, you're going to interviewing me too. I'm interviewing you. Make sure that you guys are going to be the right fit for me. Because if you're not, I know I'm not the right fit for you. Because it's not going to work." And I think working with Ben, it helped him the confidence and moving in that direction. And I really think that it helped. It wasn't like, "Hey, let's do hard interviewing skills." And yeah, we did some of those types of things, but I think it was the underlying pinnings. And in the work that we're doing in terms of actually giving the confidence versus the, "Here's the 27 questions that could come up on an interview. And here's like, all the canned responses." It was just like no, let's just get to the values and virtues and get to what actually matters. And I think that actually began to translate.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:38

I want to ask you about that here in just a moment those values and virtues and how you worked through those pieces. However, it's not lost on me that what I hear you describe in being able to have that grounding and be able to keep your focus on those areas prevented you from feeling desperate which then prevented you from acting in interactions with other people as desperate. I will tell you that the first time I got, well the first time I didn't really get laid off, I was actually hardcore fired, like, it was not a layoff situation. I told people initially because I was embarrassed that it was laid off but really, I was fired because I was not doing a great job. And they should have fired me. That said though, it felt very different. I didn't build, I didn't do what you did, I didn't like to go out and build a team or get expertise or anything like that. I very much spent a lot of time just reeling and feeling desperate and trying to do anything and everything and consequently, I got a lot of turn downs as opposed to me turning down other people. So that part as I was listening to you describe how that was, I was stressful for a solid two months, honestly. So that's really interesting. So let me ask you then, when you said a moment ago about, I wanted to focus on what was more important, like the values, what were you actually doing? What did the work for you look like at that point? And then how did that help you stay grounded?

Brian 20:17

Yeah, I think the work that we're doing, like, with the ideal career profile, I think that really helped quite a bit, and identifying the things that must be present, like in the next job. So I think it was one of those pieces going into it was like, I have all these skills that can do this, I could do that. And so it's like I said, it was just like, I think in my head what I was trying to do was try to figure out how do I actually position myself just to win the job and be wanted, again, to overcome that sense of rejection that I think I felt at the time. But I think that it was getting that clarity of the distinction of the rejection, and what do I actually want. Versus the "I just wanted to feel wanted." Of like, "No, that's not what it is." Yes, I do want that. But that's not the driving factor that's behind all this. And so I think as we started going further down that path with what must be present, it really helped me hone in with the right questions to be asking during the interview of the people. And I think even with eventually landing where I am now, I ended up interviewing with five different people, before they actually made the offer to me. And I was just like, but every one of them, I would go through the same thing of the "Are you glad you're here? Do you like the people you're working with? What's not working?" And so it's like, it's one of those things for me that became really present with the emotional intelligence. So he didn't get into EQ. And the people I was interviewing with, I put great value on people with great EQ. And every one of these people that I interviewed with, on the question of the hedges "what's not going well", they all take responsibility for what they're not doing well. They didn't blame it on anybody else in their organizations. And they would stop and they actually self reflect like, "Oh, that's a good question." It's like, well, "If I'm really being honest, I'm struggling in this area where I just don't think I'm mature enough yet. And so I'm working on this, and here's what I'm working on. So it's like, is that something that you would be able to help with?" And I was like, "I can absolutely help you with that." It's like, "Here's how I can help you." But it was just like, just having the presence of that, I think, really helped as far as like what we had done with the, "These are the type of people that I want to work with." I think also with just having enough self reflection, and as you were talking about your being fired, it's just like, if I'm being really honest with myself, I think I got to a point after going through so many of the riffs and seeing so many people that I cared about get laid off that I had just, you can say it's burnout, I think I'd become apathetic. And like, I probably would have let me go too, in hindsight. And so, I can have some resentments. Be easy to point the finger. But I think that, yeah, I probably should have got let go. But then getting to the point of now, it's just like, I am working on an awesome company. And I'm working with just really, I mean, that was my one on one with my boss yesterday. He's like, "How's it going? I haven't talked to you like in a week and a half." It's like, but I haven't met anybody I don't like. Everybody I meet, I continue to be impressed with. Everybody actually knows how to do their job, their skill, they just like they know what they're doing. They're professional." It's just like, "This is awesome." He's like "That's great. Good." With interest. And I think about, maybe second, third day into job, I went to local sales office up here and was talking to one of the district managers and he's like, "You won that jackpot, man. You won the lottery. This is like nobody leaves his company. Everybody loves it here." It's just like, you got a CEO that really cares about the people. And we just continue to do well, because it's about the people, which going back to the Ideal Career Profile. For me, a lot of that was the value of, I started really reflecting. So it's like, the majority of my waking hours are going to be spent with these people. I've gotten like the people I work with.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:27

You strike me as the type of person that couldn't just go to work and accept a paycheck, for lack of a better phrase. I don't think that would feel great for you. If I understand you correctly.

Brian 24:44

No, for sure. Yeah, honestly man, and I continue to meet with Ben and do touch base, because it's like, for me, I have within me this desire just to make it great. And it's not that things aren't great, but it's just like, we just do this and just, like, continue to make it better. And all sudden you're working 14-16 hour days, and so that's one of the things I've been here with. It's like, I know that's within me, I just don't want to get back to doing the crazy days. It's like, how do we build this in a way where we get the balance, and continue to make it better? I mean, even like doing my one on one with my boss, supervisor, manager, leader yesterday, he's just like, "Here's what I'm thinking. This is like, could you do this?" I'm like, "I could totally do that." So I was like, "I can do it then the next week." And he says, like, "You know, I'm gonna do that. And I'll come back to you with a timeline. And I'll let you know. And yeah, I can totally do all the things that you're asking me to do. I know exactly how to do that." And I was like, "And we'll do it." Instead of like, "Oh, I'll work all weekend. I'm gonna work late. And we'll have that done next week." It's not that. And I think that's some of the tying it back to the work with Ben, trying to get that balance right for the ideal career profile of, it doesn't have to be this chaos. Because for me, my innate desire is to just, I gotta get it great. And it's got to get great now.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:05

I think what's really interesting about that, as I'm listening to you talk, as you were talking about the transitions you made earlier, and the different points in time in your career with different roles, different opportunities, just in how you're talking about it, I can hear a lot of the things that you value coming out of how you're describing what was great about those situations. And I think that that is what so many people miss when we're trying to figure out work that is a really wonderful fit. It's that you have to be able to identify and articulate and then seek out those things that you want. And I think you've done a really phenomenal job here. So here's the question I want to ask for you. After the riff, after the initial transition where you're in that point where you're like, "this doesn't happen to me." And you're in that sort of mindset. And then moving all the way to where you were going into interviews excited, and you've shifted from that desperation or that other mindset into excitement. How long do you think that took for you, overall first, to shift that mindset? Was that like, a day, a week, a month? Two years? I know it wasn't two years.

Brian 27:31

It was, yeah, it wasn't binary where it was on or off yesterday, you know, it was like, a little bit. Yeah, I'd say it was probably over five, six weeks to get there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:45

What do you think was the most effective? Because I think it's easy for you and I to sit here and talk about that it's in the past, and say, "Oh, yeah." Like, you're gonna need to flip the mindset in order to be able to not come off as desperate, and instead, come off as who you are, and who you want to be and have those types of conversations that you were doing a great job having, asking them about and interviewing them about what they love, what were their challenges, etc. But it's another thing to say like, here's what had to actually occur in order to make that transition over that five to six weeks or so. What do you think was most effective for you? Or what advice would you give to other people that worked?

Brian 28:28

Yeah, I think that's a good question. I think for me, as I was starting with Ben early on, it was like, I gotta find a bridge role. I just got to make sure I've got some income while we're figuring all this other stuff. Because if this takes me a year, I can't wait a year. I gotta go fast, right. I gotta get money coming in right away. And so I think, to try to answer the question, I think, part of what shifted was the, what if I did get the job, and then I just was miserable, and I hated it. But now I don't have enough time to actually work on getting the job that I want, and moving in the direction that I want to go. And I think come into that realization of doing some of the other work in terms of, hey, fast forward six months out, you still don't have money coming in. What does that look? You know, and just like, you know, I'm still alive, my bills are paid, there's people that are much worse off than I am. It's just like, I'm fine. So it's like, I'm completely fine. You know, it gave me the confidence of the, maybe I don't just need to get a bridge role and get money coming in right away. I'm not saying that there's not people in that situation. I know. And reading through articles, and so most people don't have a lot of money in savings. I think the average American has about $400 in their bank account. So I think for me, I was blessed enough that I did have savings. I had other assets that I could sell, just like I had friends I can lean on if I really had to. And so having that confidence of, yeah, I'd be okay. So let's just get focused on what I really want versus the hey, let's just do this bridge role and get something else in there. And I think working with Ben, it helped get that clarity and faster. I think I probably would have got there, but it probably would not have happened nearly as fast as it did.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:23

If you go back to that right after you got the RIF notice, and you're in that mindset, what advice would you give to somebody else who finds themselves in that situation that does want to make an intentional career change for this next step?

Brian 30:41

I think, having working with HTYC definitely made a huge difference. I think, for me, in addition to what worked well, and getting me through this was activating my network. And, really just like reaching out to people. I talked to people that I hadn't talked to in years. And also, I think some of it is, we just get busy with our day to day lives and the people that are wrapped around us immediately, but now that it's like I'm staying in touch with some of those people that all said so it's like, you just reach out to it. And it's amazing as you reach out to some of these people that you haven't talked to in years, how fast you can just, like, pick up like, no time and ever gotten by at all, you wouldn't think this like, "Oh, I haven't talked to you in five years." Also, it was like, "Oh, what happened with someone." And it's like, and it just, like, all just picks right back up on what's where it left off. And so I think activating the network of people, whether it's via LinkedIn, but just starting to reach out to people and one of the things that was a pleasant, I don't know if surprise is the right word, it was more of a comfort than a surprise as kind of a connotation to it. For me, it was a pleasant comfort of how many people just want to help and be there to support and it's like, yeah, man, it's just like, "what about, hey, I can call so and so" and just, it was amazing to me. It's just like, and I think that for a lot of folks, I think there would be a tendency to not reach out and, like, "I haven't talked to him for five years, I don't want to be a burden." And for me, it was, and there was some of this with me. But I think in my first session with Ben that we talked about, and maybe a second was it's going to be the network to activate the network. You know, it's like, I've been blessed in the industry I'm in. I've worked with hundreds and hundreds of people. And so my networks are pretty expansive. I know there's other people that don't have that situation, but it's kind of like that Kevin Bacon, six degrees of separation sort of thing, like activate and find out who they know, and just you got to continue to work it. And I know, the framework with HTYC, you guys have a lot of that sort of the underpinnings of that to help with it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:58

Absolutely. I think that what you mentioned is really common– being the tendency to think, "Well, I don't want to bother this person. I don't want to be a burden." And what we find in this daily, honestly, makes me feel good about humanity. We continuously find what you said and what you found, which is that most people just want to help. Like at the core of it, like most people are very willing to help. I mean, you do need to take extra effort to make it easy on them. And you do need to, you know, approach it from a place of service or a place of where you recognize that you're making an ask but beyond that, like everybody if they can, I found people are incredibly willing to help. It's just we're often unwilling to ask.

Brian 33:51

I agree.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:57

Hey if you love this story where we talk through and walk you through step by step how someone got to more meaningful work, then you'll absolutely love our audiobook– Happen to Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. I even got to narrate it, which was so fun, and something that I really enjoy doing and will definitely do for future books as well. But it also contains firsthand accounts from career changers on how they made the move to more meaningful work. Just like we include on the podcast here and actually has been called the best audio book experience ever by some reviewers. You can find those reviews and the book itself on Audible, Amazon or any other place where books are sold. Seriously, just pause this right now and go over to Amazon or Audible or wherever you want and download it. You can be reading it and started on your career change in literally seconds. Now here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week right here on Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 3 34:57

I was really nervous to get back out there just because of being laid off. I was so scared that it would happen to me again. And I think our brains do that to us. Like once we go through something, that's our experience, and that's what we know. So we are told that that's just going to repeat itself.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:16

I don't think that there's an ideal time to get laid off or really ever to completely change your career. Happen To Your Career, we've worked with a whole bunch of people that have gone through pretty dramatic situations. It's one thing when you get tired with feeling stuck and decide to make a change. It's another thing when your company calls you and tells you that your time is up. It leaves people feeling pretty uneasy or scared, to put it mildly. You have a tendency when this happens, and I've been there. You feel like your life is out of control, or at least out of your control. But a professional setback might actually lead to a far better opportunity that you've never ever considered before. Our story today is someone who is already contemplating a career change, but that was then laid off before she could position herself for the next move. She discovered that evolving and adapting weren't only important for success, they were absolutely necessary to move up in the professional world.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:15

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Taj Dashaun 00:01

Other people are doing it. Here's an example of other people who have made a complete shift or completely changed industries. And yes, it is possible.

Introduction 00:14

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:39

One of the most fun things that I get to do every single day is talk to people all over the world about how they have completely switched industries without starting over. We get to share a lot of those stories on the podcast, you've heard them if you've listened to more than one episode. But it's also one of the biggest challenges. Switching industries without starting over? This is something many people come to us for. Almost everyone we talked to feels like it's going to be the struggle for them. They think they're going to have to accept an entry level role or go back to school, or they're going to have to take some kind of a pay cut. However, what we found is that these don't have to be true. And in fact, in most situations, we find that it's unneeded. You can pivot to a new industry without taking a demotion or a pay cut. But the way to do that is probably a lot different than how you're thinking about it.

Taj Dashaun 01:32

She had built the confidence through following all of those steps, and the confidence was building and building. So by the time she walked into that interview, she felt like the job was already hers.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:42

That's Taj Dashaun. He's a career coach right here at Happen To Your Career. And he's also one of the people on our team who talks to folks that are interested in working with us, and trying to figure out how we can best help. But the reason he's here today is because he's an expert in helping people switch industries. He's helped athletes, even Olympians transition into different careers. He also works with people here every single day at HTYC to change industries, or change roles, or change, I don't know, just about everything. He's even done this in his own career. Okay, if you want to hear his story, by the way, you can go back to Episode 503 and hear all about Taj. He's got a pretty phenomenal story. But in this episode, he and I discussed the most common myths that people believe when it comes to completely switching industries. No matter how long you've been working in one industry, it is possible to pivot your career without starting an entry level position or going back to school. It's also possible to pivot without taking a pay cut as well. We found that in almost all situations. We go over the three steps that you can take if you decide you want to change careers and move into a brand new industry. Okay, here's Taj kicking off our conversation by sharing what he most commonly sees when someone is wanting to switch industries.

Taj Dashaun 03:04

I think the first thing that comes to mind for anyone looking to make such a change, which is human nature, is of course, fear, uncertainty, or regret of feeling like, "Oh, I wasted my time doing this thing for this long. And now I'm looking at doing this thing", or, "I don't know what this thing is" well, either way, it's scary to make a shift into something entirely new. I've seen that with a lot of our clients as you have. I've seen it in my personal life. And I think it's definitely something worth talking about. So I'm glad we're fleshing this out and discussing this today.

Scott Anthony Barlow 03:38

Yeah, it turns out, we get to talk about it today. Let's solve all of these problems right here, right now for all the people. Okay, well, I don't know if we can solve all the problems. But I think we can provide a really wonderful framework. And when I say a framework, I'm talking about some of the specific steps that you can take, if you're listening, and you're considering switching industries, or making a career pivot of any kind, really, and you don't want to start over, you don't want to go back to an entry level position, you don't want to take a pay cut, you don't want to have to go back to school, because that's what most of us are thinking about as we're considering that type of change. Okay, now, if you're in that place, one of the things that Taj and I have found over the years is that, there has to be some pretty specific mindset shifts as it relates to this particular type of change. What do you think some of those mindset shifts are?

Taj Dashaun 04:36

One thing I want to touch on that you just said about pay cuts. That was actually one of my favorite parts of the HTYC book is that you don't have to, there was a line in there about not sacrificing your income to do something that you enjoy more and coming from a place of, "I can have it all. I can have a better opportunity that I enjoy and I can make just as much if not more money." And I think that's one of the common patterns that I see is something to overcome mentally, and having that mindset shift of, okay, first of all, this is possible, I can do it. And having that level of hope and optimism, especially if you have guidance through that process brings a level of, "Okay, well, I can't have it all. So let me get to work on figuring out what that looks like." Also, another common mindset shift, I guess you can say that needs to happen is, realizing that no matter what you're doing, your skill set can be transferred into something else, even if it ends up being something entirely different. You may not know right away what those transferable skills are. But if you go through the process of identifying what it is that you're going to go into, you can then begin to look at where you've been, and start to take those skills, and begin to articulate them, not just for the sake of telling other people, but so you know internally how these prior skills translate into this new opportunity. So those two are probably the biggest mindset shifts– I guess, I would boil that down to possibility and understanding that you didn't waste your time, you can use what you've done and translate that into where you're going.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:13

That's really powerful. That idea of you didn't waste your time. And you can use that. I think that is one of the biggest fears that people don't even realize that they have, that many of us don't realize that we have. And as humans, we’re really hardwired to avoid loss at all costs, or nearly all costs, I should say. So that, I mean, that's very much the way that our brains work. So when we put some of those together, where we may have worked incredibly hard to get a degree or you know, a master's degree, or even a doctorate, or something like that, or put a ton of work into a particular industry over the years, it feels like we: One, do not want to give that up. Because we're hardwired to avoid loss. And then two, it is kind of this double secondary problem of you feel like you need to. So it doesn't really mix very well. So I feel like I have to give that up to be able to move on to something else. And also, I don't want to. So it's no small wonder why people feel like they're stuck, right. And in actuality, to your point, we find that you don't have to. One, you don't have to give that up. You can utilize your past experiences and you can bring them forward, whether that's, you know, degree, whether that's experience in a particular industry, all that stuff carries forward with you provided that you understand where it is that you want to go. So it seems like the pre-req in there is figuring out where you want to go, whether it's a different industry or different place or a different role or anything else like that. So any other thoughts on that?

Taj Dashaun 08:01

I just want to touch on what you said about people who are, or have gone through extensive schooling, or certifications, or whatever it is. Because, you know, as well as I do, how many people come to us who are doctors, lawyers, I have a few clients right now who are doctors and lawyers. And that lends itself to that fear that you were talking about, well, this experience or this school that I've gone to doesn't mean anything. And we often have to have that, I don't want to call it a difficult conversation, but the conversation of explaining to them that once the clarity is there, like you said, you can then look at, well, being a doctor, it has a lot of skill sets. And you're part of an elite club if you're a doctor, or a lawyer, not only because of the schooling you've done, but because of the skill sets that you've developed over time. And if you can learn to incorporate that story into why you're wanting to make a pivot into the next thing, then I think that goes a long way and actually gives you a better chance than some people even if they have experienced in this new industry that you're going into.

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:03

What are some of the examples that you've seen of this in real life? You know, you just mentioned some of our clients right now. But what jumps into mind as you think about real world examples of this?

Taj Dashaun 09:19

Yes. So I have some experiences from my personal life. But let me share one from a client. This is probably the most complete 180 into something totally different that I've experienced, at least recently. There was a client I was working with, I can't remember what her major was, I want to say she got an accounting degree. And she only did that because it was safe. That's why she told me she got an accounting degree. "It was safe. I can get into accounting." She did an internship before graduating and the accounting field was not for her and she realized that quickly. So she did what most people do after realizing what she got her degree in, it wasn't what she wanted long term. She just started looking for anything. And she hit the job boards and just tried to see what was available, what was open. So somehow, some way, she ended up being a claims adjuster for a car insurance company. And she was there for about, I want to say almost a decade before... She was miserable from the start, but realized at a certain point, she had hit her capacity for wanting to make a shift. And as we were exploring ways that she could make a pivot, one of the things that had always appealed to her was working in college athletics. Which totally different ballpark. How we landed on that was just a combination of interest side projects she had done, different camps she had run over the years. All these skill sets were lending itself to "Oh, she would be really good at going into an athletic department and building out programming to help student athletes." Absolutely zero experience with this, of course. But what she did that I thought was fascinating was, of course, by going through our process, making contacts, being able to have test drive conversations, as we call them, to be able to understand what is the daily life of someone like in an athletic department who's building out programming. She then took it a step further to start to build out her own programming. And anytime she would have a conversation with someone, she would share some of her ideas based off of data that she was gathering from people who are in the role, where the holes were, what needed to improve, not just in each athletic department, but in the system as a whole. And she would publish articles, she would share her insights, she would send in pitch decks and different programming decks that she created every time she sent in an application and a resume. And to me, when she ended up actually getting a role in an athletic department, it was not only a huge moment for her, but for me too, to be able to, I felt like a proud dad. You know, that's weird to say. But just being able to see her make that change, it was phenomenal.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:02

Two things stand out to me, because I hear you tell that story. First and foremost, not even knowing who this individual is, just from the story alone, it's pretty clear that she wouldn't want to be in this new industry. Like you're talking about creating her own processes, observing the holes in the system. And that's the type of thing that someone only does if they are, first and foremost, really excited about it. Secondarily, that probably says something about using her strengths too, not necessarily just her previous skills and experiences, which is pretty cool. And we can talk about that later, too. But here's the question that it makes me think of. If we were to break this down into some of the steps that she did, step by step, what would that look like? How many steps and what's the high level of those steps?

Taj Dashaun 12:57

The first step, like we touched on earlier, is acknowledging that it's possible. And I know that's extremely oversimplifying. But acknowledging that her previous experience didn't disqualify her from anything that she wanted to do next. So that was the first thing. Creating the possibility, the hope, in her own mind that it was possible. Then begins the exploration and the discovery of what's out there, auditing the skill set, auditing the strengths, auditing anything that she had ever, it's funny, because when she was a child, it actually crossed her mind to be an athletic director. She always loved college sports, wanted to work in an athletic department. And then the third step would be, after identifying what that is, and we put that to the test through those test drive conversations, like have conversations with people and make sure that this is something that you actually want to do. You could find out that these people are miserable, and that you may want to reconsider going that route. But every conversation she had, she built up more momentum. And so the third step would be acting as if you're already in the role or thinking as if you're already in the role. That's kind of how I would put that. And I think that's ultimately what led her to starting to create programming that she could then share with people because she was acting and thinking as if she was already in the role, right. And also gave her the confidence when she went into interviews because she could then lean on not necessarily past experience, although there were some transferable skills, which she got to lean on a body of work that she had created throughout this exploration process. So that's about, I think, that's about as simplified as I could make the process.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:40

Okay, so here's what I heard from that. One, acknowledging that is possible. That's step one. Sounds like a silly step and it sounds nice and fluffy, right? But it really is an important step– intentionally acknowledging that it's possible. Two, then auditing your skill set and the past set of experiences that you have, understanding what is already there, what functions as an asset. And then from there, it sounds like exploring and testing in a variety of different ways. And that eventually leads to, as you said, acting as if you're already in the role. And part of that might be articulating why you want to make the switch and that'll help with those interviews that you're talking about as well. Okay, so let's go through each of those here, first and foremost. And let's see if we can share some examples of how to do each step functionally. Okay, step number one, it's one thing to say we should acknowledge that as possible, that we should acknowledge that it is absolutely something that can happen. It's much harder to do in reality. What have been the best ways that you've seen people be able to intentionally acknowledge that as possible?

Taj Dashaun 16:01

I think a great start is seeing examples of other people who have done it. And then sometimes just to start with, sometimes people haven't had the conversation at all. So it's more so something that has lived in their mind, and they've never actually had a conversation or had someone tell them, "Yes, this is possible." Other people are doing it. Here's an example of other people who have made a complete shift or completely changed industries. And yes, it is possible. Like we said earlier, not only is it possible that you can, in fact, make the same amount of money, if not more, by making a complete change. So I think, I know that sounds oversimplified, probably, but I think you have to have a conversation with someone who can instill that hope in you or just let you know that it's possible. And then of course, seeing examples never hurts of people who have done it, as well. And the more extreme the change, the better. I feel like, you know, that's a really extreme change, then it's like, "Wow, if they can do that, I can definitely do this."

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:58

Yeah. And I think that's a fascinating psychological phenomenon. For me, when I look at it, like when you see those extreme changes, then it sets the bar further back for you. And you're like, "Oh, well, shoot, if that's possible, then like what I'm thinking about no problem, basically. Right." And I think that's kind of a funny phenomenon. But it really illustrates the point that you've got to go seek out those other examples. And I think that's one of the biggest reasons why, if you've listened to the Happen To Your podcast over and over and over again, you'll hear stories that we've shared, where people are like, "I started listening to the Happen To Your Career podcast, and I heard this episode, and I heard this episode. And then now I'm telling my story on the Happen To You Career podcast." And I think that's the coolest thing in the world, first of all, that we can create a show like this, and have that happen where you can witness that real time. But the bigger point is, one of the easy ways to do it is go listen to those other episodes. You know, pick out the ones that seem relevant, exciting to you. And then the other thing I hear you saying, Taj, is that just simply saying it out loud, having another conversation with a human being, a real life human being and saying this out loud, all of a sudden makes it more possible than it was if you didn't.

Taj Dashaun 18:20

Yes. On that note, too, I want to share just from personal experience. Early on in my career, coming out as a college football player with no experience at all, I got into sales. And I know I shared this in a previous episode. But my point with that is, when I realized I wanted to make a shift from sales, one of the things I was looking at was going into career services or recruiting. And I was thinking, I have absolutely no experience in this. How am I going to break into this seemingly totally new industry? And I had a conversation with my cousin, actually, I was kind of telling him like, "Man, I want to get out of sales. I want to do something that's more focused on helping people." And he was like, "Well, why don't you just tell them that?" And I was like, "That's a great point. Why didn't I think of that?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:02

I can do that. How dare you? Tell people that. Yeah, that's awesome.

Taj Dashaun 19:11

But ultimately, that's what ended up helping me when I was interviewing for Career Services roles is just telling them like, "Look, I like working with people. And although sales is great, I feel like I could work more closely with people where I feel like I'm having more of an impact, which in turn would make me more effective if I was helping people get jobs and helping them figure out what they want to do." So that's just the way from my personal experience that someone shed the light on me, so to speak about, "Oh, this is possible." And all I have to do is just explain why I want to make the shift and I do have the transferable skills to do it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:45

That's cool. That's awesome. I was just talking with my son, Grayson, about this. He's getting into YouTube. He wants to make YouTube videos. So he's been making all kinds of YouTube videos. And really excited about it, right? So we were talking about Mr. Beast. Have you heard of Mr. Beast? Okay, so I think pretty much most of the world knows Mr. Beast at this point, and there's a reason for that, even though he's not that old. He's only what, like, 23-24 at this point.

Taj Dashaun 20:11

I think so, maybe even younger.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:12

Yeah, maybe even younger. But what's really fascinating about his story is he set out to be, he basically declared and started talking to people about, he wanted to become the number one youtuber in the world at age 17. That's a part of his story. It had that conversation out loud on purpose, and I'm 100% sure many of the people he was talking to thought he was crazy. Well, it's not that many years later, and he had set that intention. So it starts to become much more possible. So pretty cool, right? So Grayson immediately went and told his mom, I can't remember what he said, but he said something about wanting to do this and this on YouTube. Alyssa comes up to me, and she's like, "What's going on with Grayson?" And then I told her the story. Anyhow, so he's all excited. But let's jump into the second step here that we were talking about. This idea of auditing your skill set and your collective set of experiences. Tell me a little bit about how you've seen that work well for somebody in the past. What can we actually do to do that?

Taj Dashaun 21:19

Once again, it comes back to having someone who can do that with you, because one of my favorite expressions, I forget who said it, is that it's hard to see the picture when you're in the frame. And so you can look at your own resume and at your experience and say, "Well, I've only done this." But you know, if you're sort of auditing, like we're saying, then it starts to bring up more of just what's on the job title, or just those few bullet points, they go under the functions of the job. When you start to take a deeper look, which you can do in a variety of ways, like, we use StrengthsFinder as one of the foundational pieces. But there are also many other facets to how we help people uncover that. And so things start to emerge that aren't as obvious when you take a deeper dive into those bullet points, like I said, because those are more so job functions and duties and responsibilities and tasks and all these formal words versus like, what was I actually doing? How was I interacting with other human beings? What impact was I making on other people? And once those things start to show themselves, then it gets really exciting because you realize that those things can be transferred into anything. Because ultimately any job, not to get super woowoo and spiritual, but I know, we probably have some of those listeners.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:33

Let's go, let's go.

Taj Dashaun 22:34

I'm one of those people, for sure. I think that, ultimately, that's what any job is. Like, ultimately, whatever you're being paid to do in some way, shape, or form is having an impact on other people. So if you look at it like that, it makes transferring that into the next thing much, much easier. If you look at it from that level.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:52

One of the easiest ways that I've seen to do that, is initially just try and sit down and listed out. Not so much in the form of a resume, although that's a great place to start. Because you can, you know, you've already got a list halfway built of past roles, past opportunities, but instead, taking it a step further. And what I found fascinating, especially for layering strengths over the top of this, which if you accept the idea of signature, what we call signature strengths, being one of the truest senses of who you are, truest representations of who you actually are. And if you want to do more of that, then a really simple exercise is to list all those roles, job opportunities that you've had in the past, or even outside of work, whatever other roles you've had. And then over on the right hand side of the page, or the other side of the page, list out what specifically did you enjoy, and what specifically did you feel like you were great at or even just above average at. And although that is still to your point, it's really hard to see, because you're inside the frame, you can't look at the full picture, and it becomes incredibly difficult. What you can then do is you can take that exercise and show it to someone else and they can help you decipher, you know whether that's a friend who has a good idea of who you are, whether that is a coach, like someone on our team here at HTYC, whether that is mentor, whoever it is, it gives you a different place to be able to talk about those ideas, your skills, your past experiences, and then it causes you to focus on the ones that you enjoyed the most or that you were the best that which then allows you to set up for some of the next steps later on that you're talking about, right? So let's go into those next steps. What about that idea of exploring and testing? How have you seen that done in the past? What are the best examples of that for you?

Taj Dashaun 24:55

Well, sometimes when we talk about reaching out and I know you are very big on making this distinction between informational interviews and test drive conversations and conversations with people that allow you to build a connection. So I would start with that. I think you have to look at it as the goal of these conversations is not to reach out to people and try to ask for a job. The goal of the conversation is to: A, build a connection, first and foremost. And B, actually learn from this person as much as you can in a way that allows them to almost tell their story to you, and can give you a glimpse of, "Okay, if I were to go do this thing, what is it really like? What am I actually going to be doing from the time I wake up to the time I go to sleep?" Which I think is something that a lot of people don't think about, you know, sometimes the grass is greener, in another field, so to speak, and you look at it and you say, "Hmm, that seems pretty cool until you hear from the people who are doing it." And also, I just want to say this, just sometimes you might hear from someone who's not having a great experience, but you shouldn't let that disqualify you from the fact that you could have a good experience doing that thing. You have to use your discernment, but the more people you can have those conversations with, that's the fastest way to really get... It's the closest thing to actually being in the role itself, is having a conversation with people who are in it. So that's what I'd say on that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:22

Yeah. How did your person who made a switch to... your story from earlier, the person who went from claims adjuster to athletic director or assistant athletic director. How did she do this step? What did that look like for her?

Taj Dashaun 26:38

The first thing she did was start researching, identifying people. So that looked a lot like LinkedIn searches, going to school websites, looking up people in athletic departments. And then I just helped her craft some messages that were almost like, I want to say a message that you couldn't say no to. But a message that was so thoughtful and personal to the individual that she was reaching out to that it was more difficult to ignore, or at least not want to help her or want to want to help this person or at least share your story.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:08

That's an example of what that might sound like, while also recognizing that it's going to be different for every person in different every situation. What's one example of that?

Taj Dashaun 27:18

So I'm just going to say if you were an athletic director, like the message that she would send was, "Hey, Scott, I see you're an athletic director at HTYC University."

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:29

Yeah, HTYC University. I love it, okay.

Taj Dashaun 27:33

"And I am intrigued by the programming that you're doing." So there's a personal touch there, right? It's not just "Hey, I'm intrigued by the work that you're doing." This is a copied and pasted message. It's more so pointing to specific work that is a little more difficult to find on the surface. So there was some digging that had to be done. So "Hey, Scott, I see that you're an athletic director at HTYC University. I love the program that you did last fall. I am currently in the midst of making a career change. And I would love to learn more about your experience at HTYC University." Or you could say, hear your story or something like that. Because I think it's important to make it more about the person you're reaching out to. People love talking about themselves. People love telling their story. And if they see someone is coming up behind them and wants to walk a similar path, I think people will be surprised how willing people are to have those types of conversations and kind of pour back into the people coming up behind you. So that's the general structure that I like to use. And I know all of us as coaches here, use that format.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:35

Okay, so if we're looking at the last step, being able to act as if you're already in the role, or articulating why you want to make the switch, so that you're better prepared for the interview stage. What does that look like? What's important here? And what are some examples?

Taj Dashaun 28:53

So when you're having conversations with people, and they're telling you their story and also what their day to day function is, their experience of the role itself, something that's important to gather is kind of the challenges or issues that may be happening, because that allows you to go into problem solving mode, which then you can start thinking like, "if I was in their shoes, how would I solve this problem?" So that's the first step because you can sort of formulate ideas in your own mind about how you would immediately come into that role and make an impact. Then when you're in the interview stage, of course, that gives you a lot of ammunition, for lack of a better word, because you've been thinking about it ahead of time. And also you've audited your skills. So now you can talk about how your skills transfer into this new thing confidently because you've been thinking about it ahead of time. And you can think of examples where even though you may have done something in a totally different industry, that same skill set or the same strength or the same framework, or the same philosophy can now apply into doing this new thing, which of course gives you a lot of confidence during the interview because you've already done the heavy lifting up front of understanding, not that you're overpreparing about how to respond to questions, but you know, you're thinking as if I'm already in this role. So no matter what questions they ask me, I'm prepared to speak to that, because I've spent the time thinking about it and learning about myself.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:11

I think what's really fascinating too, is if you look at research, there's a couple elements that support what you just said. One, if you are future focused, imagining that you're in that particular role, that in itself is going to better prepare you versus if you're only looking backwards. It's a subtle distinction. But something that is going to have the impact, the real world impact of making you feel more confident, but also, when you are imagining yourself, and it allows you to be able to adapt easier. And I heard you mention that, like, you're going to be prepared for whatever types of questions that they ask you for. So it's a very, very subtle thing that just, like, works with our brains and leverages human psychology. And then the other thing too, is that when you practice in that particular way, any amount of practice, any amount of imagining is going to create a different level of confidence. And there's been a number of studies have come up with different time periods. But basically, it's pretty little, like, as little as 15 minutes of practice is going to significantly change your feeling of confidence when you go to those interviews, but also other people's feelings of your level of confidence, which is kind of fascinating.

Taj Dashaun 31:31

Wow, 15 minutes is all it takes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:34

Like, again, there's been a number of studies out there, but they're all relatively low numbers compared to what I would have thought. I would have thought like hours and hours of practice. Now, we're talking in some cases less than an hour. 13, 14, 15 minutes, yeah, pretty crazy, right?

Taj Dashaun 31:52

Definitely. I would have thought at least an hour or two. At least.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:55

Okay. So here's the question I have for you as we're wrapping up. When you're thinking of that interview step, how did that play out for that person who wanted to get into an athletic director role? What did she do? Or what do you remember worked for her in that particular situation? Since we've already utilized that story and example.

Taj Dashaun 32:20

Yes. So when she was prepping for the interview, she definitely spent more than 15 minutes, but that was probably her wanting to be as prepared as possible.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:29

She was extra confident.

Taj Dashaun 32:30

Yes, extra confident. Her preparation looked like reviewing all of the notes from conversations she had, which made it not just about that one opportunity or that one role, but the industry and the role as a whole, which was huge. And then also being able to practice, not in a scripted way, but looking at how each experience, each skill set that she has transferred into the skill set of the new role, which she definitely spent time familiarizing herself with from A to Z, this is what it looks like to do this thing. And she just connected the dots. I think she told me she even wrote it out on paper where she, like, drew a line to how this thing connects to this thing. She compared notes on that. And then really just being confident. I mean, she had built the confidence through all of that, following all of those steps, and the confidence was building and building. So by the time she walked into that interview, she felt like the job was already hers. Right? Not in an arrogant way. But just in a "I'm more than qualified to do this role, because I have vetted myself, and I pass the test." So yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:34

I think that's awesome. It's also a wonderful place for us to wrap up. Because we started out saying, okay, "how do you switch industries when you don't want to start over?" And in many cases, the pretext was, you feel like you have to start over, you feel like there's no other way for you to start over. So you get stuck. And now we're all the way on the other side of that saying, you know, in the example we've been using this entire conversation, she went to feeling like she was confident and that she could imagine herself in that role, and that she was prepared for it, which is pretty cool. Very, very, very different from the way that it starts at the beginning. Awesome. I appreciate it, Taj.

Taj Dashaun 34:19

Thank you, Scott. I always enjoy these conversations with you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:27

Hey, if you've been thinking about making a change for a while now, and you don't really know how to best take the first step or get started, here's what I would suggest– just open your email app on your phone right now. And I'm gonna give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com. Just email me and put "Conversation" in the subject line. Tell me a little bit about your situation. And I'll connect you with the right person on our team where we can figure out the very best way that we can help you, scott@happentoyourcareer.com drop me an email. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 35:03

It just got worse and worse and people leaving, getting the wrong people hired into roles and just the culture just got so, so bad.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:13

In 2007, I had changes in the company that I was working in at the time, that pretty much pushed me in the direction of apathy, like I pretty much didn't care, didn't feel connected anymore. And if this is something that's happened to you, then you're not alone. You're not even close to alone. According to a Gallup study, only 32% of US employees felt engaged at work in 2022. So this is pretty recent, right? Companies seem to be losing their grasp on what employees actually want, or when they're rapidly restructuring and trying to make changes, and when they're trying to navigate the after effects of the pandemic, they're not being successful, many of them, most of them. So if you've been spending your time in a job that is very out of alignment with who you are, or maybe you're surrounded by people that just don't share the same values, they don't place value on the same things that you do, if this is the case, then you'll find that even if you enjoy your day to day job functions, and even if there's many other good things, you're probably going to fall quickly into the category of disengaged, that'll make you ready for a change whether you recognize it or not. And the good news is that well, the number of engaged employees is extremely low, there are in fact organizations out there that have more than doubled this percentage. What does that mean? Well, there's organizations that actually care if you are feeling connected, and enjoying your work and feeling engaged. Pretty cool, right? You just have to find them.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:57

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Julie 00:01

That's what I've been trying to figure out for a year is like, what am I stuck on? Like, am I in the wrong role or the wrong company, or both?

Introduction 00:16

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:41

Possibly the most difficult part of finding opportunities that fit you is locating organizations that are a perfect match for you. After all, there really isn't a list out there of companies that are small, family style organizations that happen to allow highly flexible schedules and also have larger amounts of resources and a leadership team that's helped a ton the integrity or whatever it is that you absolutely want. There's just not a list of, I mean, those organizations are out there for sure. But the question is, how do you find this unicorn organization that fits you? But it's even more complicated than that, because what's a perfect fit for one person isn't necessarily right for you.

Julie 01:23

I'll find different roles that I'll get really excited about. And then there's just always something missing, like I don't have a CPA, or I don't have whatever. So that's kind of like, if I'm finding these organizations, that I'm reaching out, and they want to know more about how to speak to that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:41

That's Julie. She's one of our clients who has been in and around the financial services industry for quite a few years. Julie has done a great job finding a few organizations that pique her interest. However, when it comes to identifying other potential organizations that could be a fit, that's the part that's been giving her trouble. Actually, just trying to decide whether to focus her efforts on roles or organizations, at all, has been a struggle. We sat down for a coaching session on how to work through these pieces. Julie was very kind and allowed me to share part of the session with all of you, too. So here she is, as I'm helping her get very clear in two areas. And number one, what specifically she needs and wants in her next role. And number two, what are the largest priorities for her.

Julie 02:32

The biggest thing is the culture, it feels very a lot like the culture from my old firm that I was with for almost 11 years. And that's been like, I miss that so much. I like that small family, people actually care about you and ask how your weekend was, or just ask about you, it's not just come in to work hands down and grind, and nobody wants to, like socialize. Just the opportunity to have ownership and be a partner, which is something that I turned down and is really important to me. And a lot of it just kind of, I guess, comes from my old role where I was involved in everything like decision making, strategic planning, project management process, improvement, employee mentorship, it was just there was a lot of team collaboration, and anyone could have an opinion and insight and maybe they didn't always take your idea or your suggestion, but at least you've like, I felt like my opinion mattered and valued and the work that I did was making the organization better and it doesn't, I don't know that it necessarily matters what that is, it's just that I've learned that I need that. Like in my role now, it's just very top down. There's not any order direction and, or input from anyone and it just gives me a lot of anxiety.

Scott Anthony Barlow 4:07

So when you say, "I need that", you're talking about the feeling like your opinion matters, and also the being able to contribute in the way of making the org better directly. Okay. Anything else that goes into that when you say "I need that" or that is really a must have moving into that next opportunity?

Julie 04:32

I think it's important that I feel, I mean, even if it's not, maybe, every single thing in the organization, that the things that affect me and my work that I'm fully integrated involved and at least have a say or like the siloed work environment that I'm in now, like, my current role, I'm a financial planner and I work with the clients but then not be involved in other parts of the clients. I want to be involved in the whole process and anything that's happening and it should, like, I want a team around the client. So if this is the team, then everybody's included on the emails, everybody knows what's going on. So that, then somebody's out and they call, you know what's going on, or you don't miss things. It just feels more efficient.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:22

All right. So here's a couple of things I heard you say, and this is where I need you to set me straight. Because it's going to help focus our efforts. It's going to, you know, the whole, actually, I totally forget the quote, it's something about, you know, you steer a boat one degree to the blah, blah, blah, and then that you end up however many miles off-course. Okay, well, that's why I want to make sure that we are right on here a little bit, that way we get to the place where you want to go. So one of the things that I'm seeing and hearing is that you've really focused on some of this financial aspect in terms of the types of organizations that you have sought out. And I've seen a lot of that. And there's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. So my question doesn't come from you're doing it right or wrong perspective. The only right answer is what is true for you. That said, I want to understand a little bit about why you've chosen to focus your efforts around those areas, as opposed to any other areas?

Julie 06:20

I have always had a really strong interest in finance and accounting related topics. And I really do enjoy the industry. But like I left my own organization, working with nonprofit organizations, more institutional type clients, and turned down a partner to follow a passion to work with, like, personal finance and individuals. And I do enjoy that a lot. It's not been as great as I thought, but I think it's more of the organization than the career path. But then there's always this doubt in the back of my head, because this has been so bad. And I'm like, maybe it's both. So I don't fully know. But I know that I love helping people. And I love finance. So whether that's, as a wealth advisor, or some other type of financial organization helping people, I just know that those two things are important. If that helps.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:24

Okay, I have a couple thoughts for you. And this is the part where you've got to set me straight here.

Julie 07:29

Okay.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:30

So I'm going to share with you what I think I've read and what I've heard, and then you can say, "No, Scott, that's not right", or "Here's what I meant by that", or anything else. What I believe I'm hearing, and when I also believe that I'm reading and what you sent over to me are, almost everything that you have put down is controlled by the organization, or by the environment in the organization. When you say things like, a small and family-type culture, and they act more like a family, and they're going and getting DoorDash. And like that doesn't have anything to do with the type of work that you're doing, whatsoever. And I keep hearing that over and over again. And as I look at your ideal career profile, I see things like the amount of income that you want to make is probably going to be dictated a whole lot by the organization and the profitability of that organization, maybe a little bit of the level of role, we'll call it, the flexibility you have, I know that you want to spend more time than you are, being able to visit friends and family and places. And that's going to be an organizational cultural type thing in terms of acceptance versus not, the family social aspect, the growth, the types of growth that you're looking for, are very likely going to be associated with the type of organization and the people within that organization too. Even you've mentioned several times to me over the course, just like interactions, about feeling like you fit into the multipotentialite category where you have lots of interests, not necessarily one particular interest, right. And that is often, not always, but often going to be less role driven, and more organizational driven. It's not that it can't be role driven, and it's not that that's impossible. But if you had to start someplace, it sounds like there's probably a lot of types of things that you could do as it relates to roles. But that is actually less important for you than the organization. Okay, so that's what I believe I'm hearing and here's where you got to say "No, Scott, that's totally wrong. Actually this..." Or feel to say, "Yeah, that's right on". Or we can sort through it together.

Julie 09:58

Actually I think that's really helpful. Because that's what I've been trying to figure out for a year is like, "What am I stuck on?", because for a year I've been struggling with "Am I in the wrong role or the wrong company, or both?" And, you know, I've gone through all this stuff and even worked for a different career coach before Happen To Your Career. And it was just kind of the same conversation of like, you've got to pick and I'm like, "I can't."

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:30

"Don't make me pick"

Julie 10:31

This and this and this and this. I want it all, like, mish-mash together. And so I think that makes sense that it really is more about, because I would be happy in any of these roles that I have on my... that I mentioned.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:48

Well, as long as some of these other pieces that you have mentioned are really important to you. That's, I believe, what I'm hearing. I'm literally putting words in your mouth. So please.

Julie 11:01

I needed that. Those are the words I've been trying to find for years. So appreciate it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:09

Oh, absolutely. My pleasure. And if that is the case, then I think that my advice is going to be retargeting how you're looking for organizations. Not completely, but partially. And what I mean by that is, I think that is probably going to be more helpful for us to target our search around things like size, culture, maybe even certain industries, I think those are going to be far more important than just focusing on a more narrow scope in terms of like, what kinds of roles can that organization offer. And I think you've been doing both. So that's good. We're just going to temporarily eliminate one of those paths. That will help you focus, and that will help you find more of what you're looking for. Because the name of the game here is how much can we eliminate and move off the table so that we can draw our attention to what is actually leftover? That could be great for you. Because it's just, for someone like you, I would imagine, who can do anything, and you have done lots of many things, then that makes these types of decisions even more complex. Because it's like you said "I don't want to pick. I don't want to give it up." Is that a fair assessment?

Julie 12:32

Yeah, that's fair.

Scott Anthony Barlow 12:33

What I think that means as it relates to organizations, is that we need to get even more specific on what creates the right organization before we can really get into the nitty gritty of search. Because what I could do with you is we could, like, jump right over to the internet, I could screenshare and we could start searching for organizations. However, I think a lot of things are going to sound really, really good right now. What we are left with is still almost too large to really begin a fruitful search. It doesn't mean you can't find anything, it means you'll find way too much. And that's one way to start. I mean, we have no other alternative, we can absolutely start there. But what I would probably suggest first that'll help us get into that nitty gritty a little bit easier, is seeing if we can get down to what is most important first. And when I say what was most important first, I mean, which of these elements that are important to you, like being able to have a higher degree of flexibility, or having this small family type feel, or something else that we haven't even defined yet that you need and want in the organization and the culture. What are the pieces that float up near the top? Or if you didn't have them, then it would be a showstopper. Does that make sense? Does anything flow to mind initially as to what are some of the pieces that might be more important versus the others? And if not, I can ask you questions so we can sift through it together.

Julie 14:07

I mean, I think the kind of harmonious team based collaborative environment is probably the most important. I may forget something I feel like that's pretty high up there.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:22

Do you mind if I share the copy of the ideal career profile that you sent me?

Julie 14:27

No, I don't mind.

Scott Anthony Barlow 14:28

We'll pull it up on the screen. So we can look at it here at the same time. So what I'm going to do is just as you're talking, I'm either going to type or I'm going to highlight. So that harmonious environment. So tell me about that. You've used the word collaborative a lot just in this conversation. And I've seen it pop up inside of our community once or twice. I don't remember where or what context but I've seen that with you a variety of times. So I'm guessing there's some measure of that being pretty important. So tell me more about the harmonious, the collaboration type piece, what that looks like and why you think that is near the top.

Julie 15:04

Because I love people.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:07

Great place to start.

Julie 15:08

I need people. I need a lot of people interaction. And I don't know, I guess I'm an extrovert, so like, brainstorming, and that is just, I get energy from that, like, I don't know how to not take a genuine interest in people or especially like, if you spend most of your time at work, so I want to like the people that I work with. I mean, sure there might seems to always be like one bad egg, but the bad egg needs at least be like tolerable. Like, everybody wants everyone to do well, I don't like a competitive work environment where it's like, I want to be successful. I want everyone else around me to be successful. So I feel like I have a lot of competition in the current environment.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:04

Okay, so for you, part of that is about being in an environment where, these are not your words but my words, you said, "I want to be successful and let everybody else be successful too." But it jumps into my mind as being able to, you know, everyone brings everyone else up, for lack of a better phrase.

Julie 16:25

Yeah.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:26

Okay. So why do you consider that to be near the top versus any of these other things that you have listed on here? Because you've got lots of great pieces on here.

Julie 16:36

Yeah. I mean, honesty and integrity is pretty important enough that the top two, but in a way, this go kind of hand in hand, because if you're not being honest, and then it's not a harmonious environment, at least in my mind.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:52

So that's part of what that harmonious environment means to you, then.

Julie 16:56

Yeah, it was part of it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:58

I'm going to actually take this, and you have it under ideals, which would be beyond the Must-Have. And I'm actually going to take this piece here and say this must happen. So these are actually, at least this element is your minimum, like, if you move into another role, and you don't have these pieces, you're gonna go right back to feeling like you are right now. So I think that is the line, if that makes sense. And when I say the line I'm talking about everything above the line is stuff you must have, or I should say the line is exactly what you must have, everything beyond that is ideals. And then everything below the line are things that you cannot accept, they're below the minimum. I think these pieces really are for you, the minimums. What feels true for that, what feels not true for that for you?

Julie 17:55

Yeah, I guess other minimums would be a certain aspect of the financial and benefits and kind of like, PTO that I have and I'm accustomed to.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:07

Okay. So some of these pieces could also be minimums down here, too.

Julie 18:11

Yeah. I wouldn't say necessarily all, but certainly some of them.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:15

Okay. So then, what would... if we were to get sort of wildly crazy here for just a minute, what would this piece look like to the extreme? What would this piece look like to ideals? Like if you could sort of wave your magic wand for a second and say, "You know what, there's not even that one bad egg there or whatever." Then what would that look like for you? Let's just move down that path for just a second. Because that's going to help us understand where to target our efforts to.

Julie 18:47

Like, what would a harmonious collaborative environment look like?

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:51

Yeah.

Julie 18:52

It would be, like, warm and welcoming, how was your weekend and that if you have any plans, kind of, caring about each other. Maybe on occasion, people going to lunch together or doing things outside of work together. But that's not a must.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:11

Okay

Julie 19:12

I mean, it would be nice to have co-workers that you want to go to lunch with or do things here and there, but it's not like everybody doesn't want to get together after hours.

Scott Anthony Barlow 19:21

That's a good example of an ideal. Anytime you hear yourself say, "It's not a must. But it would be nice too", that's your ideal category. That's your alarm bell going off that "Oh, hey, that is something that is not one of these minimums necessarily. It's not below the line, but it is something that I would really like to have and really would love to see in the next opportunities and beyond."

Julie 19:48

I guess, like just an open communication. You know, everybody kind of is on the same page like where are we trying to go with the organization, what's going on, there's not a lot of ambiguity about anything, you know, I mean, just clear communication.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:08

Okay, I'm gonna substitute in a few things that are must haves in order to create that, that everyone on the same page or having that open communication, likely, those are going to be organizations that to some degree are a bit vision driven. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are like the whole organization is establishing water sources in Africa or anything along those lines. However, it does mean that for everybody to be on the same page, then there has to be great top down communication, as well as bottom up communication. So that typically is going to be having everybody on the same page with things like vision or mission or other pieces of that as well. So the reason I'm pointing that out is that it can give you clues as to where to start looking as well. A couple of the things that I'm hearing, and I'm just going to write these down for you, so you're going to have some places to start. So when you think about searching for organizations, here's some of the things that can be great for you to start with. "We probably are looking for a small," I'm just gonna capture it right here on this piece. And then I can send you this link to this version of it so that you have all this information too. So "We're probably looking for small to medium sized organizations, or sub organizations of larger organizations." The reason that I would suggest waiting on that is I think you're probably going to find more fruit, you're going to bear more fruit, if you actually start with the small to medium sized organizations, those have a higher chance in most cases of feeling more like that family, because they often have a little bit more stability in some ways, not always, you're looking for the ones that do, have a little bit more stability in terms of people, which means people get to build deeper relationships, they often are working together in different capacities, or they are responsible for doing more or so they have to rely on each other more as well. So there's a whole series of reasons, I won't go into all of them for you. But that is a great place to start. Aside from that, we're probably looking at those vision driven organizations, or organizations that have a clear cause. So in the financial industry, there are still plenty of organizations that have a clear cause, necessarily, it shows up differently in that type of organization, sometimes, than it does in a Tom shoes type organization. However, you can see a pretty distinct difference when you talk to people in an organization like, let's see, like SoFi financial versus a, why can I think of one of the smaller ones, that is just escaping me right now, I just had an interaction with him the other day. And you talk to some of the team members in those organizations as two completely different fields, depending on, are they rallied around the same type of cause? Is the communication great around that cause? Can they prioritize within their organization? Have they grown really, really, really, really quickly? That's another thing you're probably not looking for, you're probably looking for more steady growth, as opposed to growing so fast, that they are losing bits of these pieces that you're talking about here. So I'll write that down, too steady growth as opposed to massive growth. So organizations that have grown specifically because they've had venture capital dumped into them, I want you to avoid like the plague, you're a lot less likely to get that what you want out of it in those types of organizations. Where organizations that may have been around for five or seven or ten plus years, that are still relatively medium sized to small, but have experienced steady growth are going to be another indicator to you as well. So what I'm trying to do for you is get you a little bit of a checklist in terms of different ways to look at this so that we can translate some of what you want into where you can begin to look for it. Some of the other things that pop up too, are going to be the flexibility side. Help me understand what you want about that. Is that primarily just having flexibility for time off or is that having flexibility for how you're doing the work? Help me understand what that means.

Julie 24:56

I guess it's kind of a few things. It's like, if flexibility that if I need to, I don't know, I'm not necessarily looking to like work from home all the time, but if you know, somebody's come into the house, or I have an appointment on this opposite side of town, close to home, but nowhere near the office, you know, to be able to work from home for a little bit and then go a little away, just that kind of, or there's a doctor's appointment or time off.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:24

Okay, okay.

Julie 25:25

So like, I like to be able to decide what time I eat my lunch.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:30

All right.

Julie 25:31

Which I never thought be something that I had to even think of. But that's like a scheduled time where I work now. I hate it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 25:46

Okay, let's bring it back around. Because there's really three parts here, there's figuring out your must haves and getting incredibly specific. And then after you do that, you'll have initial clues as to where you can begin looking for targets or organizations. Once you identify and narrow down your list of organizations from your research, now, it's time to reach out and begin getting to know the people in those organizations. This is one type of approach that we use with many of our clients and students so that you can really understand, "Could this organization be right for you?" So I'm oversimplifying a bit here. But I want to show you how this works. I talked through this process with Julie, here's me explaining to her and interacting with her during the session exactly who she could reach out to for best results, and how this could actually work, even some verbiage that she can use.

Julie 26:41

And that's really helpful. I guess, what's, maybe, not clear it's shifting years is more on like, I don't have a good understanding exactly, actually discovered on the role being as important. I mean, it's important and that it has certain things, but outside of that it's not important, but I'll find different roles that I'll get really excited about. And then there's just always something missing, like I don't have a CPA or I don't have whatever. So that's kind of like if I find these organizations that I'm reaching out to and they want to know more about me or how to speak to that, that aspect of them not as, like I'm clear but I'm not clear. If that makes sense.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:28

Yes, yeah. And that's a common place where people get tripped up too, or I should say that, it's common to be worried about that. Because a lot of times we feel a pressure to say we are interested in a particular role or to provide that as a place to start, here's the way that I would handle it. And the way that I have handled it in the past, and we've had a lot of other people be successful within CCB too. Since we're focusing on organizations first, what that might sound like if you were to take the next step of reaching out to people, then instead of saying, "Hey, you know, I'm really interested in blah, blah, blah, type role", it can be completely driven from that, "You know, I found your organization as I was looking on EDC and just be very transparent with that. I'm gonna make a true career change in the near future. And I'm trying to do some research to find out what organizations could be right for me, and I really wanted to learn more about yours." And some of the things that stood out to me were a, b, and c, the fact that it appears you have an environment with a highly supportive and collaborative, almost family like setting, and I'm trying to understand more about what you do. Would you be willing to chat with me a little bit to sort of learn more about your organization and what you love about it and what you don't love about it?" And that's it. That type of conversation. That is very, very simple. Now, I think something that is very useful, as it relates to approach an organization first is, you probably want to go higher up in terms of roles. When you're reaching out to people, you're probably not reaching out to somebody in a mid level role, you're probably reaching out to upper-end type roles, upper-end typically leadership in the organization. Two reasons for that. Reason number one, actually, there's way more than two, but I'm only going to share two with you. The reason number one is that is going to give you better information about what the organization actually values and what the leadership is like, because that's part of what you're going to need to know to make good decisions for yourself. Secondarily, if you decide that "Hey, this is possibly an amazing fit, or at least I want to know more. I want to dive in deeper into this particular organization and learn what else I can." Then it becomes much easier or to do so. Because after you've already had a conversation and started to build a relationship with that person who's in leadership in that organization, if you ask something like, "Hey, you know, who else would you suggest that I talk to in your organization to learn more?" If that person makes a recommendation and introduces you to somebody else in the organization, and they happen to be on a lower level in terms of scope of the organization, then even if it's a request, it may not be looked at as much as the request and it's more likely to happen. So thinking a couple of steps ahead. If your boss's boss's boss says that "Hey, Julie is amazing. And I would love for you to talk to Julie. Could you spend a few minutes with her? And she has some questions about the organization." Then a lot of times people are more willing to do so if it comes from your boss's boss's boss, or whatever. So many more reasons why to do it that way. However, that's just a couple of suggestions for places to start. Does that help at all? In terms of how functionally to make that work?

Julie 31:03

Just keep it all organization. Yeah, I mean, it makes sense. It's just, I've gone on like informational coffees and different things, which is how I've found the opportunity that hopefully plays out. And just I'm really used to getting the like, "Well, what do you do, or what do you like to do or want to do." And so that's where I just have a talk about that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 31:28

I think one of the things that would be very helpful for you, if you haven't already, getting into some of the interview prep module for being able to share stories, particularly about some of the results that you've been able to get that you would like to delve more into, in terms of types of work too, but I think you can still be very transparent, and also specific without pinning yourself down to a role. It's more difficult, I promise. And that's not how people are used to having it delivered, people are used to being able to put you in a box. But you're multipotentialite anyway, like you don't fit in a box. So don't accidentally put yourself in a box that's not serving you well, and it's certainly not serving your future organization well, either. If they've already put you into a box, and that's how they're thinking about you. So instead, your communication with them is going to be much more about, you know, "One of the things that I have been able to do and in past roles that I loved is being able to step in where I have influence over a variety of portions of the organization. For example, one of the things that I did in a past organization was A, B, and C. And I absolutely love that because it allowed me to collaborate with five different people on three different teams. And it allowed me to get my hands into the P&L portion plus also the customer service portion plus also, and I love being able to move amongst all of those different pieces, because it allows me to learn and grow pretty rapidly. And I find that I'm able to do that in ways that just other people can't. So I want more of that." So it's gonna require more explanations, being able to almost show them what you've done in the past and how it's gotten results for past organizations, and then you've been able to say "I want more of that type of thing." And then you can even be transparent with them. The problem is, like, there's often not a role that fits that. So that's part of the reason why I'm taking a different approach. I want to find the organization or organizations that really are an amazing fit, and build a relationship with them. And that's why I'm here asking you questions. So I appreciate it.

Julie 33:39

Okay, yeah, that makes sense.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:42

It also takes the pressure off you to have to say the perfect thing too. It allows you to just be much more transparent. And I think I find that for the right organization, they're going to appreciate that anyway.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:01

If you enjoy this story, this episode, then you can learn more like the one you just heard today in our brand new audiobook– Happen To Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. It's available on audiobooks now. The paper copy of the book has been out for a while. But if you're listening to this, and you enjoy this podcast, I know you're gonna love the book. You can visit happentoyourcareer.com/audible in order to get the book right now and start listening right away. All right, we'll see you next time. Here's what's coming up next week.

Speaker 3 34:34

I got to the point of just, like, I was having thoughts of, like, I was driving home one day, I was like, "Man, I would rather die than go in tomorrow."

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:44

If you've listened to this podcast or read the Happen To Your Career book, then you know the reason behind why I do what I do. The reason why I started HTYC and the reason why I started this podcast is because I was once where many of the people who you've heard on the show come to find themselves negatively affected by work with no idea how to escape. My commute was three hours a day, my work schedule was 70 to 80, sometimes 90 hours per week. I didn't really have weekends, I didn't really have time off. I didn't really get to see my wife. It was, shall we say, not great. Well, okay, fast forward past the point in time where I began self medicating with food, gained a ton of weight, and seriously considered jumping out a window. Then I realized that work can be unhealthy for so many of us. But here's the thing, it doesn't have to be. If you're stuck in a job that is making you miserable or negatively affecting the rest of your life, you don't have to let it control you. You can make the decision right now to start taking steps to a work that fulfills you and allows you to be more happy more often.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:57

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Kristen Rocco 00:01

How do you know how to get from where I am in this kind of stuck mode to taking these bold steps forward and doing the thing?

Introduction 00:17

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast with Scott Anthony Barlow. We hope you stop doing work that doesn't fit you. Figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that is unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you feel like you were meant for more, and you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:43

Lack of clarity around what you want out of your career can leave you feeling directionless and unsure about what next steps to take. It's like wandering in a fog, not knowing which way to go and often results in being stuck in a job you dislike for way too long. So how do you figure out what you want for a career when you have no idea where to start? Well, an overnight miracle would be nice, maybe, genie in a lamp. Heck, yeah. But we all know it doesn't work that way. Real progress takes intentional action after action. Well, the tangible changes you're looking for may not happen overnight, there are small internal steps that you can begin taking right now to start clearing that fog.

Kristen Rocco 01:27

It all kind of led to an unexpected conclusion, 'cause I didn't, obviously, I wouldn't have thought that I was going to be laid off. I thought I would make the transition myself. But it was honestly probably the kick in the pants I needed.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:41

That's Kristen Rocco. Kristen had been in PR Communications and Marketing for the entirety of her career. But she had started to feel burned out, and like she was no longer aligned with a role. Kristen was sick of feeling stuck. And she knew deep down that a change was absolutely necessary. So she began working with a coach. Just as she was making progress on what more fulfilling work would look like, life threw a curveball. She was unexpectedly laid off. But because of the work that she had been putting in, Kristen was able to look at this as an opportunity. She had already done the groundwork. And now she could fully embrace what she had built, which happened to be her very own content marketing business and podcast. I want you to listen to how Kristen got unstuck, and how she figured out what she wanted to pursue for her own business. Here's Kristen sharing where her career first began.

Kristen Rocco 02:37

I started 15 years ago in PR, it's how I got my first step into this area of marketing. And I was planning and producing and helping my clients tell their stories in the press. And it was a really interesting time to start in marketing broadly and in PR specifically because the space was evolving in such a fast way. So when I came into PR, social media was just getting going. And so we were taking advantage of social media for business and trying to figure out how businesses could benefit from social media outreach to their potential audiences. So I got my hands dirty with that. And then again, about five years later, content marketing was kind of new to the scene. And then it was like, "Oh, wow." In addition to reaching out to the media with pitches and story ideas, we can actually write these stories and produce these articles for our clients and create editorial calendars and build out all of their own media for them. So I was able to get into that kind of early on and out the gate. And so that's kind of how my career went over the first eight years. And then after I moved from New York City to Atlanta, I decided to take a break from corporate America for a while and start a new business called Love Notery, where I brought storytelling to the wedding industry, and started helping engage couples document their love stories. And so it was a really interesting business because I was able to define a new category in the wedding industry, right? There was, I don't know if you're familiar with the New York Times vows section, but it was kind of like that, but bringing it more to the more general market, right? Cause that was kind of a fluent leet celebrities and people to get their stories told in that way. And I just thought that it was cool to give engaged couples this legacy throughout their wedding planning process. So I did that for a couple of years full time and then I decided again to go back into corporate America, this time really trying to focus on content marketing, just because, in addition to the creativity of the storytelling, I also have a real business mindset and very strategic mindset. And so it was cool to me that I could come up with the creativity with the business side of it, and drive leads for businesses through their content marketing approaches. So that is kind of what took me through the 15 years of my career and then reached out to you all to help me think about what my next transition would be.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:26

What caused you to say, "Okay, it's time for me to make another transition." Tell me about what you remember.

Kristen Rocco 05:35

Yeah, I think it was a particular event over time. In my last job, I started to feel really out of alignment with, not the role. I loved what I was doing. Of course, you can see I'm very passionate about my space content marketing and storytelling. But the way in which we operated as a team felt very out of alignment with how I wanted to do my work. And that took a while to come to a realization that it wasn't me that didn't fit into that equation, that company didn't fit into my equation, if that makes sense. I think it took me a while to depersonalize it from, "Oh, this is me. I just need to find how I can fit in and get it right." Versus like, "No, I'm never gonna get it right. This isn't the right environment for me." And so that's kind of what led me to Happen To Your Career. And I did a lot more discovery around those themes while I was doing the coaching, but initially, it was because I felt very out of alignment with my role and the team, I guess.

Scott Anthony Barlow 06:53

What caused you to begin to realize or what caused you to realize that, "No, it's actually just not in alignment with what I want or what I need." as opposed to "I need to," as you said, the opposite way, you know, "I'm trying to fit myself into this thing. And I might be doing something wrong." Do you remember what caused you to realize that it was the polar opposite?

Kristen Rocco 07:16

I mean, I think it was feeling demoralized on a day to day basis. I think it came down to feeling. But if I were to think about it from more tactical points, I think I had a lack of control over my calendar. There were meetings six hours a day that people just plopped on my calendar. And I can't share all the responsibility. Or I would need to have meetings because we had so many things to do that we're all conflicting priorities that needed to be done at once or at relatively, the same amount of time. And so we just needed to get the work done. And it caused a lot of overwhelm and locked up my calendar so that I spent the majority of my days in meetings and not having enough focus time to complete my actual work. And I think that day after day after day, causes burnout, and then also not, I think that culture plays into it a lot, too. And I think that the culture that was at this organization was a very challenging culture, not necessarily a culture of praise and complimentary culture. And for me, I have thick skin, I worked in PR for eight years and had to get rejections almost every single day, multiple times a day. So that wasn't the case. But everybody needs a sense that they're moving in the right direction, and they're doing great things. Otherwise, they're just not going to feel satisfied in their job. And this culture didn't allow for me to feel like I was recognized for my best work. And so the combination of those things made me know that I needed to make a switch.

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:58

So when you first started working on that switch, and I'm really thankful that we got the opportunity to help and sit side saddle with you on that. But what was hardest for you when you first started moving through that and doing the work about, like, what comes next?

Kristen Rocco 09:19

Yeah, I think I've said this a couple of times too, in a variety of different situations. I think that my brain was so locked into a daily, just like a demoralized capacity, if that makes sense. And so seeing opportunity was challenging initially, and understanding what possibilities were challenging initially. Being curious, my coach would ask me, "What are you curious about?" And I remember thinking, "I don't know. I don't know what I'm curious about." Because I was just so focused on getting through every day and then trying to relax and power myself up for the next day that I really didn't spend enough time thinking about all of those other things, right. And I think I opened myself up finally to the possibility of something else in my future, and let go of trying to control, or not even let go of control, but I finally started to put more into myself, learning about myself, discovering myself through the process, actually, it's a little bit like therapy, you know. That learning about myself more along the way from a work sense, like values, what I wanted out of my life, and then what success looks like to me, how I defined freedom, all those kinds of things. So those were some challenges initially, is just getting out of my own way, basically, and removing the blockers of what I was currently sledging through, because it did feel like a sludge to see that a brighter possibility on the other side of it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:07

Okay, so here's my question for you then. When you started moving down that path of beginning to explore again, for the first time in a while, what really created some level of extraordinary for you, not just what you're curious about, but what could be amazing for you, what did you find helped move you down that path? And what did you learn about yourself as you were beginning to move down that path?

Kristen Rocco 11:35

Yeah. So initially, I was following the modules and going through the progression to get to the ideal career profile. And I was serious about that, right. Like, it wasn't just something that I was trying to get through, I was actually putting time, attention and detail into those questions and trying to think about what I wanted to be doing, and how I wanted to approach the work. And I'll say that I didn't necessarily know at the time that I wanted to do what I'm doing now, which is consulting. But I knew how I wanted to feel, right. That was a big factor in trying to figure out the next step. And then I think what I did was, I tried to think about how I wanted to feel on a day to day basis, and connect that to organizations that can help me feel that way. And so looking for organizations that publicly, I guess, had a great culture and then privately trying to suss out whether that was true. And then really thinking, when I was in interview processes interviewing them as much as they were interviewing me to make sure that the culture was going to be really aligned with who I am. Again, that's what I felt out of alignment at my other job, or maybe I never felt out of alignment with it, which is more than just not knowing what I was getting into when I joined initially. And you know, some things changed along the way as well. So that all kind of plays in as well. But thinking about how I wanted to feel and thinking about a culture fit, that would be the right place for me. And then also, I was like, "Maybe I want to work for a mission driven company." Or something that was more connected to a bigger, something that had a little bit bigger meaning and purpose than the organization that I was in at the time. And so that's how I started and then, you know, I think once I started answering those questions and putting more focus and energy into it, I was able to kind of identify companies and other things that way. But I also then, you know, started to the visioning worksheet really sticks out in my brain, actually, because it was all about what do you envision your typical day to be like? And again, I gotta tell you, I was like, "Oh, man, I haven't thought about this in so long." Or in this way that what is even possible. When I close my eyes to imagine it, what would I even think, but I was able to get through that. And I really came up with something that I thought would really fulfill me. And so I talked about in there, I would like to have a variety of conversations with interesting people and be able to share my insights with them and have them share their insights with me, so that we can collaboratively bring more into the world, more learnings, more opportunity into the world to help educate people and help them along on their journeys. And I said I wanted to work with a variety of different types of people. And I can't remember all the specifics in there. But basically, it was a lot of connecting with people. It was a lot of empowerment messaging, and inspiring people as well. And so then that helps me think a little bit more about myself, I suppose. And like what my values are and my coach helped me too, right. She looked at the visioning statement, pointed out some of the themes to help reflect that to me what I was saying, like, "Oh, this to me, sounds like you," you know, want to blah, blah, blah. And so I was like, "Oh, yeah, that really does resonate. I love how you sum that up, that speaks to me." And then we talked about like, okay, well, what are my values, and getting more into the personal side of things, and less on the business side of things to kind of help bridge both of them together. And so then through that process, I was able to make a lot of progress.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:44

Okay, so here's my question to you, then. You know, let's fast forward here for just a moment, because what ended up happening is you're doing all this work to define what the next step looks like, and it is becoming more and more clear that there needs to be a next step for you. And then at some point, you experienced a layoff, right? So tell me a little bit about that and how it happened. And then also bring us up till now.

Kristen Rocco 16:12

Yeah, so at the beginning of the year, in January, my first session with Phillip. He said to me, he's like, "As you reflect back on the year or 2022, what would you tell yourself at the start of all of this, that you wish you would have known, you know, something to that effect?" And I said, "I would have quit my job." Or something like that. So I think I spoke this layoff into existence, to be honest. But yes, I worked in a technology company. And I think kind of February was a time where there, and still there's a lot of volatility, and there's a lot of speculation on what's going to happen. And so my company did lay off some people and I was part of that. It was the first time I had been laid off in my career. And I surprised myself completely with my reaction to it. Because I feel like the old Kristen would have been really scared, fearful, anxious, overwhelmed, like, "Oh, no, what do I do now." But I was... I flew... actually, the day I got laid off, the very next day, I had a family wedding in Florida that I was flying to. And so I was like, "Oh, my gosh, this is great. I just got laid off. And I get to go party with all my family now. How amazing." And so it was just a choice that I made to not live in that, like, quote, what I consider or how I can relate it to, like, "playing small". I'm gonna embrace this. And I've done a lot of work over the last eight months to push myself and know myself better to go into the right next fit for me. So I'm going to make a choice to not do things the old Kristen way, and celebrate this, that it's just that let push forward to the next best version of myself. And so I took the weekend, dancing away at the wedding, and then came back here. And I guess five days later, when I got back, I started creating my consulting website. And putting together not necessarily a business plan, but my thought processes on how it was going to go to market with a new content marketing consulting business, which kind of comes full circle around why I now call myself a storytelling entrepreneur. Because I have weaved in and out of corporate America, but I started the Love Notery business, which is storytelling in the wedding industry. And now I'm doing my own business again, this time, focusing on content marketing support for businesses. And so I'm just really excited about this next chapter. But yeah, it all kind of led to an unexpected conclusion because I didn't obviously wouldn't have thought that I was going to be laid off. I thought I would make the transition myself. And I am a really, like, high performer. So it's not like, I mean layoffs can happen to anybody, it doesn't matter your performance level when it's related to the recession or the economic environment. But I think that it happened to me this time because finally my mind was open and had wanted to go in another direction and this was like the kick in the pants to just do it. Because I don't know, I was still very scared to quit myself without having complete confidence in what the next step looks like for me. And now I didn't have a choice. I had to get this website stood up, put thought process into how he's going to deliver services to my clients, and get the word out. And I'll say that I launched my business about a month after I was laid off. And after that, I was fortunate enough to really integrate. And I can't be more grateful for the people who showed up for me on my network. But I got a lot of referrals. And I now have a couple of clients that I'm working with full time. So I'm really excited about it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:23

I'm excited for you. And I know I had told you that already before we hit record. However, it also pegs the question of, it's really, first of all fun for us to sit here and talk about this now is seeing that some things have worked out. But it's also easy for us to do so, and that 's already happened. So what I'm curious about is, what do you feel like you did that allowed you to be able to make those choices differently when the layoff happened? Because I suspect, as you said, the old Kristen would have done it differently. And you also said that you made the conscious choice to behave differently after it happened. But what allowed you to make that choice? Because I don't think it wasn't just like, "Well, I'm gonna make a choice, and everything's gonna be okay." Like, there's probably some things that happened that got you to that point? Or that you did?

Kristen Rocco 21:22

Yeah, yes. I want to say like, going back to my strengths, like, I'm an achiever, I'm going to do all the work. And I'm going to put in all the activities. And so what first had to happen for me to be able to do what I did was a mindset shift. And so I know, we talked about it in terms of a choice that I made to be optimistic to know that there were possibilities out there, to not let overwhelm and fear get in my way. But, that was a really important shift for me. I really had previously kind of operated out of a scarcity mindset. And I was able to finally make an adjustment to an abundance mindset. And so that was really important for me. But my achiever mode, and my ability to just keep pushing and excelling, got me to this place where, "Okay, I now have no work to return to tomorrow. So I have to decide what I'm going to do." And I said to myself, "I could either start submitting a thousand resumes a month, or I could submit proposals to clients who might be interested in working with me one on one." And so I'm like, "Why not give the consulting route a shot? What's the worst thing that can happen?" You know, I don't get, you know, new business or whatever. And then I can just go and apply for jobs. And so I chose to count on myself, and go all in on me this time around, and not leave the decision making in the hands of a recruiter or a hiring manager. But rely on the fact that I've been doing this for 15 years, and I know what I'm talking about. And I deliver great value to all of my clients I've had previously all the organizations I've been in and do it for myself. And so that's what I chose this time around to submit proposals.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:30

I think there's something that's really fun there is that you, and this probably comes from your strategy strength, I would imagine. You recognized that if we're pulling out and saying, I'm going to spend the time doing something in order to do something else.

Kristen Rocco 23:48

I'm not the type of person that's gonna Netflix and chill.

Scott Anthony Barlow 23:51

Yeah, so if you're going to spend the time doing something, there are multiple choices about what that something could be whether it is as you said, "I'm going to submit resumes or I'm going to do things to be able to lead to a job. Or I'm going to use that same time to submit those proposals." So I think first of all, that's really cool that you had that recognition that it doesn't just have to be a thing, doesn't just have to be "Oh, well, obviously I need to get submitted my resumes now. Like, okay, all right. Let's move on." So after that, though, it also seems like the other thing that is really pretty cool about that is you were able to connect back that choice to all of the other mindset shifts that you had had along the way that enabled you to understand that that was the right choice for you.

Kristen Rocco 24:45

Yeah, that's a good point too. Because when you are operating your own business, there is a lot of uncertainty naturally with this path. I don't have the consistency of a paycheck every two weeks. These contracts will eventually come to an end. And I will be looking for new clients again. And I did need that shift in my mindset to be able to do this effectively. Because otherwise, I could get way too deep into being scared of not getting new clients to let that affect my work product with my current clients, right. Or, you know, however, that could manifest within my business and what I'm doing on a day to day basis. And so, but now I have everything sort of calendar it out in terms of how I'm going to approach my time, on a week to week basis, I have given number of client hours that I need to fulfill weekly, and then I segment out, "Okay, these are the couple of hours every week I'm putting towards new business. And I'm going to work on that this time this week." And I know I just can kind of feel it in my gut, that things will work out. And even if they don't work out on my timeline, that laying those seeds always grows flowers. And so it's a matter of being patient and just continuing to plant the seeds or put one foot in front of the other to do the work that you know is going to produce the outcome that you want. So that's kind of where I am right now in terms of my mindset, and approaching all of my responsibilities with as being a business owner.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:34

So let me ask you this, then, let's go all the way back for a moment to where you were at the point in time where you're like, "What am I curious about? Like, why are you even asking me that question? I don't understand. I'm not in a place to be curious." But let's go way back there, to that point in your life. What advice would you have for someone who is sort of living that right now and recognizes that they need to make a change, wants to make a change, but isn't totally sure, like what or how, or when. What advice would you give to that person?

Kristen Rocco 27:13

I think that the word, there's two words that come to mind for me when you ask me that question. The first word is "stuck". I totally know how this person feels. They feel stuck in their current situation and unsure about how to get out of their situation. And then the other thing that's coming up for me is recognizing that feeling is important, but also knowing that you can unstuck yourself by doing the work. And the work looks a lot like what we do in the program. But there's also another way that I look at this and I've learned this through coaching as well, that the "how", right so like "how do I get to the next step? How do I find the job? How do I reach out to that recruiter?" Whatever the how is. The "how" isn't as important as the "who", which is I know what you coach through the program, right? And which it's all about reaching out to people to learn more, and find out more about what they do and making connections with people. So you can start evaluating these things. But the reward really isn't the "who" because that's how the "how" comes. And so I just recommend that people think not about the process of the "how", but "who" can they meet that is going to open their eyes up to what the possibility is. And so I think that my advice is focus on meeting people, asking a lot of questions and building your connections because it's the "who" that's going to help you get from where you are today to where you want to go in the future.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:02

Hey, if you love this story where we talk through and walk you through step by step how someone got to more meaningful work, then you'll absolutely love our audiobook– Happen To Your Career: An Unconventional Approach to Career Change and Meaningful Work. I even got to narrate it, which was so fun, and something that I really enjoy doing and will definitely do for future books as well. But it also contains firsthand accounts from career changers on how they made the move to more meaningful work, just like we include on the podcast here, and actually has been called the best audio book experience ever by some reviewers. You can find those reviews, and the book itself on Audible, Amazon or any other place where books are sold. Seriously, just pause this right now and go over to Amazon or Audible or wherever you want and download it. You can be reading it and started on your career change in literally seconds.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:56

Now here's a sneak peek into what's coming up next week right here on Happen To Your Career.

Speaker 3 30:01

That's what I've been trying to figure out for a year is like, what am I stuck on? Because for a year I've been struggling with, am I in the wrong role or the wrong company, or both?

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:13

Possibly the most difficult part of finding opportunities that fit you is locating organizations that are a perfect match for you. After all, there really isn't a list out there of companies that are small, family style organizations that happen to allow highly flexible schedules and also have larger amounts of resources and a leadership team that's helped a ton the integrity or whatever it is that you absolutely want. There's just not a list of, I mean, those organizations are out there for sure. But the question is, how do you find this unicorn organization that fits you? But it's even more complicated than that, because what's a perfect fit for one person isn't necessarily right for you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:57

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.