Victoria Lyon 00:01

Thinking long term felt very daunting. And there's this notion, I am a growing and evolving person. How can I be confident that what I envision for my future 10 years from now is going to at all be where my aspirations and my goals and my values are?

Introduction 00:24

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:48

In early 2020, Victoria was working in a low stakes research job in Seattle. Overnight, her research lab was thrust into the spotlight after discovering the first case of COVID in the US. Her low stakes job was now truly a meaningful, groundbreaking role that was changing the world. But instead of reaffirming the path that she was on, it made her question her entire career path.

Victoria Lyon 01:13

But there's this idea of, if unless you have a destination in mind, you're never going to get there, right. So if I'm on the road, "oh, that's an interesting detour. And that's an interesting detour." I might end up somewhere interesting, but I could also look back and go, "Wow, I did not get to where I want to be in life."

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:31

Victoria Lyon thought that in order to do meaningful work, and have a career that she was proud of, she inevitably needed to get a PhD to advance her career in public health. Well, not only did she step off the university track and completely switch industries, she found what we like to call here at Happen To Your Career, her "unicorn opportunity", a role where she's using her strengths, she's doing meaningful, well paid work that she loves. And, you know, most people don't think it exists, just like a unicorn. Oh, and by the way, the icing on the cake, she has found a workplace environment that allows her to be her true self for the first time when she didn't even realize she could hope for, in a career. Victoria shared specific tactics that she used in her career search. She also details how working with her coach helped her figure out what she truly wanted, and ultimately prove herself that unicorn opportunities are real.

Victoria Lyon 02:28

I think the earliest place we can start was my freshman year of college, I was determined not to gain the freshman 15. And as part of that, I discovered group fitness, and fell in love with it, became a fitness instructor, and I realized I wanted my career to be about helping people, be healthy and live healthy lives. And during my master's program, I became fascinated in this intersection of health and technology. And I decided, you know, if I work at a health tech startup or do something in this space, I ended up moving to Seattle. And I worked my way into a part time position at an academic research lab at the University of Washington called the "Primary Care Innovation Lab." And then in 2019, I was put on a project that was funded by Gates Ventures, that was about hypothetical pandemic preparedness. It was all about, after SARS and MERS, there's probably going to be another pandemic. And so we had this research study going, we conducted it for two years, we were halfway through our second season of this flu research, when COVID hit. And all of a sudden, I was thrown into the frontlines of running COVID testing operations. And that was never something that I thought that I would be doing. My passion had always been in preventative care, like weight management, diabetes prevention. So to be in this infectious disease world was completely out of left field for me, but like many people during COVID, I was asked to do something, and we all had to rise to the occasion. So I was working on COVID response efforts, COVID testing programs. And it just got to a point where I was ready for a change at a certain point.

Scott Anthony Barlow 04:25

So tell me about that then. When you were there, and thrust into the midst of that, in so many different ways, partially because in the United States, Seattle became known as, I guess, point zero, that's not quite the term I'm looking for. But pretty close, right? And also, you're in a very unique, like there's only so many organizations that are working on that exact problem at that exact time and in that exact way. And then on top of it, you are thrust into a different kind of, we'll call it a different kind of work than what it sounds like you were doing up until that point, as well, in addition to already being outside of the reason that you got into that in the first place. Is that a fair statement?

Victoria Lyon 05:20

Sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:20

So what was that like? What do you remember that time period being like?

Victoria Lyon 05:25

Yeah, you know, it was a huge shift from being a research program to a service for the city of Seattle. And it happened really quick. And when you say, we were were patient zero was, literally the reason they found out that COVID was in Seattle was because our labs started testing samples for COVID. Like, my managers were the ones who were on the news and interviewed by the New York Times, there was all of a sudden is very high visibility into this project that had been just completely off the radar before that. So yeah, to be shifted into this job that I have no formal training in was completely different from what my master's degree had been in. Yeah, there was certainly a sense of overwhelm, and maybe some impostor syndrome of "Am I qualified to do this?" But there were so many people and so many different job functions that were asked to go above and beyond. So there was the sense that we were all in it together. And we had to learn a lot fast. I think something that people don't talk about enough is that in so many jobs, part of the job is figuring out how to do your job. And what I mean by that is, like software engineers, it's normal to go onto a website like Stack Overflow, and search for how to do a thing. And I think in this world, I was being asked to start learning FDA regulatory policies. And not only was it something that I didn't know how to do, but there actually weren't established rules yet for what we were trying to do. So, you know, every day, every week, we were refreshing the page on the FDA website, looking for guidance. And that means that somebody at the FDA was also trying to figure out, how are we going to guide people, this is new territory.

Scott Anthony Barlow 07:11

For you, what then took place where you ended up deciding, "This is no longer right for me. This is no longer the place where I want to be." What events took place that made you decide, "Hey, it's time for me to move to something different, that is good for me."

Victoria Lyon 07:33

So while I was working at this academic lab at the University, I was considering getting a PhD. It was very clear if I was going to stay in that environment that the only way to have long term job stability, and to have authority is to have a PhD. So I started down that path. I studied and took the GRE. I researched schools. I met with prospective faculty, I did all of the things. And then ultimately, I realized that I liked research, but I wasn't sure I wanted to stay in academia. And I wanted to explore industry research. So through that, I decided to do the Project Management Professional, the PMP credential. So while I was working on all of the COVID response efforts by day, as my job, I was taking a PMP course in the evenings and was preparing for that exam. I took that exam–it was January 2021. And so in my head, I was going to stay in this academic research environment until I passed the PMP, and then I would figure out what my next job is. And then the other piece of this that was I was engaged and was preparing for a wedding, which wedding planning during COVID is a whole other ordeal. So I finished the PMP exam in January. I quit my job in March. I used the entire month of April to focus on COVID wedding planning. We got married in May. We moved from Seattle to Austin in August. And I started a new job and a new industry and our whole new life in August. So there was just this huge shift. There were a lot of pieces of change that were underway. And it was in August that I decided to start career coaching with Happen To Your Career. And the reason I wanted to have help and get coached at that time, was before that I had been thinking about "what am I want to do for the next year or two, what's the best next step?" But all of a sudden, I was married. And people were asking me, you know, "What do you want the rest of your life to look like? What do you want the next five years to look like?"

Victoria Lyon 09:50

Exactly. And I just couldn't picture my life. I had just been thinking about let's just get to the move. Let me just get to a new job. And so funny enough, when I started coaching with Happen To Your Career, I was at this point where I said, "I don't need to get coaching for a new job right now." I want to come out of coaching with a vision of a long term roadmap for my career. And this idea of articulating my ideal workplace, it was bigger than that. What does my ideal career look like? What are the things that are going to set me up for the life that I really want?

Scott Anthony Barlow 09:43

No pressure or anything, like, "Hey, still a...? Yeah, what do you want the next 47 years to look like?"

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:25

Why was that so important to you at that time? Other than people were asking you that question, and maybe unintentionally or intentionally applying pressure to you in that way. What was really important to you about figuring out what it looked like for yourself, what ideal or extraordinary looks like for the longer term?

Victoria Lyon 10:49

There's an analogy, and I hope I don't butcher this.

Victoria Lyon 10:52

But there's this idea of, if unless you have a destination in mind, you're never gonna get there, right? So if I'm on the road, "oh, that's an interesting detour. And that's an interesting detour." I might end up somewhere interesting. But I can also look back and go, "Wow, I did not get to where I want to be in life." And so this idea of really being intentional about, "Where do I want to be? What are the things that are important to me?" It was important to define that, because once that endpoint is defined, I can start, you know, breaking it down and figuring out what are the small steps it's going to take to get there. And it just felt, I don't want to say I was wandering aimlessly, but I had never thought with this long term orientation before. And again, with starting a new life getting married, all of a sudden, it made sense to have this long term orientation, because it's not only about me, it's about my family. And so having a plan that works for me and my husband long term, that it's important to be very intentional about thinking long term.

Scott Anthony Barlow 10:52

Go for it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 11:55

When you begin to shift your perspective to thinking longer term, what were some of the things that either surprised you about what that is actually like that thinking longer term? Or what were some of the things that were different than the way that you thought it would be?

Victoria Lyon 12:16

I think thinking long term felt very daunting. And there's this notion, I am a growing and evolving person. How can I be confident that what I envision for my future 10 years from now is going to at all be where my aspirations and my goals and my values are? And what happened and I actually starting to have these discussions a lot through coaching and a lot through conversations with my partner, is that once it boils down to values, it's easier to see that, that once you're really in tune with your values that it's okay to think long term because values don't change that quickly. This is not a fad, or, you know, some new show that I'm fascinated with this month. Values are pretty constant.

Scott Anthony Barlow 13:06

That's interesting. I'm so curious about how people think about values, because I find they're so ambiguous and fuzzy in some cases. But how did you think about values before you started doing this type of, we'll call it difficult internal work, versus after?

Victoria Lyon 13:28

How do I want to put this? Your values show up in so many different ways in your life. And the idea of expressing my values through my work, but also looking at how I'm expressing my values outside of work. I think that the biggest shift for me during COVID was realizing I had a lot of my identity wrapped up in what I did for work. And especially during COVID when extracurriculars got put on hold and socializing with friends got put on hold, that was the one piece that I still have left. And so it was very easy to be tied to any value that I felt was being expressed by my job. And being a public health professional, there was this element of public service that was really a deep value to me, that I was helping others, I was making the world better. And there was a piece of me that was holding on and didn't want to make a change to something else because I was afraid what if it's something that isn't deemed as important or as much of a public service compared to what I'm doing right now? And so I think this dive into values of, you know, what really is important to me? And this idea of relationship building, being at the core of the value of mine, and then actually with my StrengthFinder's realizing how much influencing was something that was really important to me that, you know, maybe I work in an environment that isn't saving the world from a pandemic, but I'm influencing something for the better, that was still in line with my values.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:13

This might be a great time, may I redo something that you wrote to us when we first got the opportunity to meet you, my team first got the opportunity to meet you?

Victoria Lyon 15:22

Yeah, sure.

Scott Anthony Barlow 15:23

You had written to us, "My husband said it best. I became a martyr to my job, my energy and happiness plummeted, and my relationship suffered, because I had nothing left to give." And I think that what it sounds like, based on what you just shared with me, is that as soon as all of those pieces went away, and then, you know, you're spending the majority of your time and energy with your job, then it started to become evident to you that what you felt was important and felt was a part of your identity was not necessarily what you wanted it to be, if I'm interpreting that correctly. How do you think about that?

Victoria Lyon 16:09

Yeah, that idea of being a martyr to my job. I have a lot of people that can relate with that feeling. I'm going to just paint a little picture of what that really meant. One of the final straws where I knew it was time for me to leave my job in public health was, this a couple of months before my wedding, and we were recruiting participants for a longitudinal study, in which we were trying to invite people to participate right after they were diagnosed with COVID, and then follow them for a year to understand what their long term symptoms are, to understand what we're calling long haulers of COVID. It was very difficult to reach people, invite them to be part of a study and convince them to join and fill out all this paperwork when they're feeling really, really sick. And so my team spent a lot of time emailing and calling people who had just found out they got COVID. And so the next step that I was asked, from some of our study leadership, was to start recruiting people either in person at COVID test sites, or in the emergency room after people had been diagnosed. And I've never worked directly in the clinical setting. And it got to a point where I felt like the risk that I was going to put myself in every day to be face to face with people who had just been diagnosed with COVID, that the risk that I myself would contract COVID right before my wedding, right before people were going to travel in from out of town, that I did not want to compromise myself. And that was where if I had said 'yes', that would have been maybe taking my martyrdom too far, where I didn't want to put my own very critical life moment at risk for my job. And so this idea that it was okay to push back and say 'no', and that it didn't make me a bad employee or a bad public health professional, but that I have to take care of myself in order to take care of others. And in the long term, it was the right call for me to not undertake that task.

Scott Anthony Barlow 18:14

What advice would you give to people who are finding themselves in that same situation, not necessarily exposing themselves to COVID right before a wedding, but instead, where it is conflicting...they're being asked to do something that is conflicting with something that is really important to them. And it requires pushing back or having difficult conversations or whatever else might be a necessity at that point. What advice would you give to those people who are finding themselves in that situation?

Victoria Lyon 18:50

I understand it's a difficult situation. And when you're a team player and you want to do anything and you care about the cause, it's really hard to say no. I think for me, something that was helpful was imagining the worst case scenario, if I had gotten COVID, it absolutely wouldn't have been worth it. It was very easy to say no to that decision. I could have rationalized myself, oh, the likelihood that I won't get COVID is also pretty high, it's fine, I can take the risk. You know, it's easier to feel obligated to stay in an environment that's not serving you if you downplay the risks. And here's where my project manager's brains are gonna come in. It's okay to do a risk assessment and to decide that the risks are too high. And businesses do this all the time when they're making decisions. So the idea of taking this risk assessment approach in your personal life is absolutely fair game and then it becomes less emotional. It's not–I'm letting down my manager or I'm letting down these people. It's...I didn't assessment and I do not come out ahead. And in fact, if I get hurt, it's gonna hurt everybody else, too.

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:01

I love that. Particularly because on this podcast we've, many times over, had either advice, or we've talked about considering the worst case scenario, but usually we're talking about it in the context of the worst case scenario isn't necessarily that bad. But what I love about what you said is that sometimes the worst case scenario actually can be that bad. And it's okay to make a decision based on that worst case scenario, it really helps put it in perspective. I appreciate that immensely. It also leads me to ask something else, too, because a short bit ago, we're talking about your strengths. And if I understood correctly, you've taken Clifton StrengthsFinder, a variety of times over the years, a couple of times, right? And I'm curious, because we haven't spent a lot of time talking on this show, about how people's strengths evolve over time. And I'm curious what you learned, as you had seen different results evolve over time for yourself?

Victoria Lyon 21:09

Yeah, so the two strengths that had been pretty consistent from...when I took it in college, and my first job out were Futuristic, and Includer. And Futuristic, I think has played out throughout my career, because I continue to be excited about entrepreneurship, right. The shiny new frontier, people who are making a better future. So that makes sense. And then funny enough, I've had on and off with the different times that I've taken the StrengthsFinder– Includer and Woo showed up. And what I think is very funny is the first time I took it, Includer was almost at the top. And then when I took it after I had just gotten my first job, Includer was gone, but Woo was on there. And it made sense, because I was wooing people to start my career, of course, that mindset was going to be more top of mine. And when I look at some of the other strengths that have been in there, Arranger is one that has been a pretty constant through line. And I think that my journey to find project management really taps into my Arranger, that is...it is all about coordinating people and getting resources organized. And funny enough, one of the strengths that came up this most recent time I took it was Maximizer. That had not been on my StrengthsFinder earlier. And I think that becoming a project manager, or I'm thinking about how do I maximize the resources I have, make sure that people are doing things that make them feel empowered and tap into their competencies that, you know, I think that the environment I'm in and the job that I'm in has certainly brought out certain strengths. So that has been really interesting. And one of the things that was really insightful for me about going through my strengthsfinder with Happen To Your Career was, we did a really, really deep dive into what each of those strengths meant and how they show up in my life and how I can focus, for example, in the first 30 days of a new job, how can I be very intentional about bringing my Arranger strength to the table? And so I talked with Jennifer about each of those different strengths, and how are they going to come to play, and can I even pencil in time on my calendar for activities that I know will tap into my strengths? So we got really granular with it. The other thing that was pretty amazing, and diving into my strengths was I had never looked at the kind of parent categories of the different strengths, executing, influencing relationship building, and strategic thinking. And so zooming out and looking at my strengths in terms of those four categories, as opposed to drilling into the individual strengths, one of the observations that Jennifer made, which I had not thought about before, was that the majority of my top five strengths are in the influencing category. And when I had been talking to her about what I wanted in my next career, I kept saying, I want it to be relationship building. I've been doing so much that it's transactional, or I'm doing things behind the scenes and I'm not connecting with people, I want it to be relationship building. And she kind of pushed back and said, "Whoa, let's look at this influencing theme here. Are you doing anything that makes you feel like you're influencing? Do you want to be doing something that's influencing?" And what we realize is that the experiences I've had in my past where I have felt the greatest sense of purpose was absolutely when I felt like I was influencing the direction of an organization, wasn't just doing tasks, but it was helping an organization be better.

Scott Anthony Barlow 24:57

So that's fascinating because I think what I heard you say is that you were feeling this need to be able to have more connection to people. And you viewed that as in the past been more operating, more transactionally. And what you were perceiving as the potential solution was more relationship focused. And it sounds like what actually was a better solution for you was to focus more on how you're influencing others, and that created a different level of connection. Am I getting that right?

Victoria Lyon 25:39

Yeah. I think there was always an aspect of relationship building. I'm building relationships with my co-workers, no matter where I work, that's one thing. And where it really came to be top of mind for me was, in my academic research life, I actually loved the stage where we were planning research studies, and it was lots of meetings and logistics, and the part of the end where you've collected all the data, and you're doing statistical analysis and writing papers, I dreaded that stage. I am in those days when my calendar was blocked, I can't have any distractions, I need to write an academic paper. And the majority of people that I've worked with in that environment felt the complete opposite where the planning and the logistics is just the part you have to get through. And I can't wait till I get to run this sophisticated data analysis and show how smart I am and write this publication, which is what your worth in academia is measured by. And so that was one of the big pieces to me realizing "Okay, well, maybe academia isn't right for me. Maybe I shouldn't go down this PhD path, because I will be rewarded and incentivized to do things that go completely against my strengths." And so I kept latching on to the relationship building and the collaborative part of what I had liked about my past job. But when we drilled in deeper, it wasn't just that it was collaborating with others and social because I could have done something like sales, that would have been very relationship oriented. But I could close a million sales with great clients and not influence the organization. And it was this nuanced view that when I'm working with others, and I'm helping an organization evolve, or create new policies, or impact company culture, that is what gives me a great sense of satisfaction.

Scott Anthony Barlow 27:33

So how did you utilize that newfound understanding of yourself to make decisions then? Because from what what I understand for our chat before we hit the record button, that influenced a lot of decisions, no pun intended with the influencing.

Victoria Lyon 27:53

Yes, one very tactical takeaway was that I started putting the word influencing in my job searches. So in Indeed, I would type in Project Manager influencing, because, turns out, there are a lot of different flavors of project management. There are project managers who are all about data. And it's mostly about budgets, or staffing people and making sure that nobody's over allocated and that, you know, those project management jobs, they're spending a lot of time in a very sophisticated software, allocating resources to the right place. And that was not the kind of project management job that would be right for me, that would be one where maybe a strength like input or something more analytical, what if thrive. But for me, I was looking for project management roles where when I looked at the job description, it was more nebulous, you know, we need somebody who's an organized self starter who can help drive multiple initiatives and can influence without authority. And it was that exact phrase can influence without authority that was in the job description that made me decide to apply for the job. And it was a huge part of the interview process. That was one of the questions that the hiring manager really wanted to dive into. And this idea of somebody who's able to influence, that's also part of relationship building and relationship manager, right. So the two are very linked.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:22

When you were in the interview process, it sounds like that was reinforced throughout the process in a variety of different ways. So you had this initial clue as you were starting to modify and target your search to where you were putting literally the keyword influence or influencing into your searches. So that's where you started, and that's so subtle, like that doesn't...I know you said, "Hey, this is a small tactical thing" but I think that's actually a really big strategic tactical thing. Because so many people miss the fact that if you start searching in the right places, in places where you're more likely to find what you want on the other end, then that in itself eliminates so much of the minutia and the noise and the things that don't actually matter. So I would say that that's actually really strategic. But then it sounds like throughout the interview process, it was reinforced, or it was validated that, no, it wasn't just any random thing on a job description, which sometimes it is, right. But then this is something that they actually need and is actually a valuable part of the role, or they need someone who to be able to do that. Is there anything else that stood out to you that caused you think "yeah, this is actually really right for me."?

Victoria Lyon 30:43

Yeah, I'm gonna take this on a bit of a tangent, but we'll get there. So let me just start with how this job opportunity came to me. So again, I had been meeting with Jennifer, I think we met four months into career coaching. And I got an email from a recruiter. And I looked at the job description, and I noticed that it was an Israeli startup. And something I had joked about is that it would be a dream of mine to be able to travel to Israel for work. And the reason why that was on the fantasy list was because I'm Jewish, I've gone to Israel several times and on organized trips, and high school and college, and so I always am happy to have an excuse to go back, I have a deep connection with the place. And for that reason alone, I said, "Sure, maybe I'll take an interview, why not." And it turned out in learning about the company, and you know, who they were funded by, and that they had all this momentum, that it sounded exciting. And then when we drilled into the job description itself, this piece about influencing and doing a lot of cross functional engagement, that I was gonna get to interact with people on the product and engineering team, the sales team, the marketing team, customer support, I might even get to do some research and talk to customers directly. I love this idea of getting to really learn the business from all different angles. And this idea that my job was going to be to influence everybody to come together to accomplish really big initiatives. So it sounded exciting. And then the piece of it that has been a really pleasant surprise was, in being part of an Israeli startup, something that I took for granted was that a lot of people at the company are Jewish. Not necessarily that they're all religious, you know, they can all practice in different ways. But there's this huge kind of Jewish subtext to it such as, you know, the team in Israel is not going to be working on Jewish holidays. And so the idea that I might want to take off work for Jewish holiday, is not something that's out of the question, or something that I really have to explain. And so this has been the first work environment that I've been in, where being a Jewish employee doesn't feel like the exception. And any minority, right, there's parts of yourself that you feel like, "Oh, I'm just always gonna be different." And so this idea of how does my Jewish self affect my being at work, like it just never crossed my radar is something I could want or ask or that it was possible to fit in with that. You know, like it just so it was one of those things, we didn't identify it through the course of coaching. I kind of stumbled on this opportunity, Jennifer got me ready to make a leap. And then after being in it was like, "Oh, my God." I was allowed to ask, like, "Why was I looking for this the whole time?" So yeah, I think that's where it comes in. And I think, you know, I'd be very curious if people in the LGBT community, you know, have a similar experience or people of color, you know, there's so many versions of this that I think might be similar for people.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:05

I think one of the most fun things about that story that we've heard again, and again, even in many of the stories we've shared on the podcast, is that so many people feel like, hey, this thing that I want that is been in the back of my mind, sometimes for years, like in your case, it was many years, because you felt like "hey, I'm not going to find an organization that really allows me to have that said, like, celebrate what I value in this particular way" or it sounded like you felt like it had to fit within certain boxes. And I find that anytime that something is pervasive like that, it's important enough where it sticks around for us. And it feels like it's an either or choice. Usually someplace just beyond sight of what we can see is an "and solution" where we can have our cake and we can eat it too, or, you know, whatever analogy you want to use. But usually, I find that there's always an “and solution”. So I'm so, quite frankly, excited, ecstatic, there's a lot of words here, I could say, that is what I'm feeling that you were able to find this "and solution" for yourself. I think that is so very cool. And yeah, I really appreciate it.

Victoria Lyon 35:27

Thank you so much, Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 35:35

Many of the stories that you've heard on the podcast are from listeners that have decided they want to take action, and taking the first step of having a conversation with our team to try and figure out how we can help. And if you want to implement what you have heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just open your phone right now and open your email app. And I'm going to give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And then when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team. And you can have a conversation with us, we'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and your situation. So open up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line; scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:39

Hey, I hope you loved this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And if this has been helpful, then please share this podcast with your friends, with your family, with your co-workers that badly need it. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Speaker 3 36:57

Don't think that it's not okay to keep trying and keep experimenting. I think some people are like, "Well, I can't. I've done too many jobs. I've just gotta stay put for five years." Five years is a very long time. We've got one chance at this life. If it's not working, if it's not feeling good, then change it up.

Scott Anthony Barlow 37:15

Let's talk about what I like to call the ongoing experiment of your career. I'm gonna guess that when you started your current role, you were super excited, and maybe even landed that ideal role. But guess what, after a while, the honeymoon period starts to wear off, you eventually start to get that urge to change careers, maybe even switch industries. And that's okay. We never have it all figured out. We never have all the answers. We are constantly evolving. We're constantly learning, changing and discovering new interests, new preferences, new wants, new needs, new ideas. The experiment of it all is being able to take the learnings and the data that you've gathered from your experiences and use that to figure out what you want in the next chapter of your career.

Scott Anthony Barlow 38:01

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Adam Bloom 00:01
And so I left there and finally was like, I want to try some different stuff. But I was applying for jobs. And by that point I've been practicing for six, seven years. And when you're that far into a legal career, nobody wants to let you try new stuff. They want to hire you for the stuff that you know how to do.

Introduction 00:20
This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:44
Usually, when people find this podcast, they feel stuck in their careers. Sometimes, it even feels like being in jail.

Adam Bloom 00:52
And I remember the first day they were walking us around and they said they were giving us our offices. And they showed me my office. And I looked in there and I was like, "Oh, no, no. Something is, you know, I'm not going in there." You know, it was literally like the scene in the movie where the guy's been sent to jail, and he's walking down the long hallway carrying his blankets, right? And he has to go like, "here's your cell." That's how I felt where I was just like, great, you know, lock me in this box, why don't you.

Scott Anthony Barlow 01:21
That's Adam Bloom. Adam finished law school, he entered the workforce, right as the 2008 recession was starting, perfect time, right. Just like Han Solo, he had a bad feeling about it from the beginning. But with the recession starting, he figured he could stick it out until things turned around. Only they didn't. So then later on, he felt pigeonholed not just in law, but even specific areas of practice. He attempted to leave several times trying to figure out how to make his excitement for writing into a career. But he kept hitting wall after wall after wall after wall. Eventually, we got to meet him. And he learned his signature strengths. He learned how to pivot into what he really wanted to be doing. Here, let me actually read you something that you wrote, almost a year ago, not quite a year ago, just maybe 10 days, 11 days, short of a year ago, you wrote in response to "Hey, why do you want to make a career change?" And you said, "I've never enjoyed practicing law. I love writing, especially screenwriting, I would love to transition out of law." And you also...

Adam Bloom 02:33
It's true then, and it's true now.

Scott Anthony Barlow 02:34
Yeah. So first of all, congratulations. Because like almost exactly a year later, guess what, you're out and your a week and a half into the new role here. And clearly, this is a much better fit. And I love the comment you made earlier about, you said something to the effect of, you know, "It feels like I have always been a quick learner. And I've always had that capacity for learning. But now that I'm actually doing something that I want to be doing, it's like taking off the ankle weights, and you can just run with it."

Adam Bloom 03:02
Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, it's an interesting bit of timing for me. And we can do the short version, or the medium version, or the long version of my legal career. But I graduated law school in 2008. So I remember I've always thought back on the first day of work that I had, where I got hired by one of the largest law firms in the world called Jones Day in New York. And I was working in their New York office right in midtown Manhattan. And, you know, my dad, who was an attorney took me shopping, and we bought a couple of suits. And I put one on and I take the train to Grand Central. And I remember running up the stairs to get out of Grand Central onto the sidewalk, like, "here we go first day", and I arrived at work, and everyone was like, "Welcome. Here's the deal, the economy is collapsing. A lot of our big clients have gone bankrupt, we don't really have any work for you. We don't know what's going to happen to the firm, you know, try to hold on for dear life." And so immediately, things kind of went sideways where the opportunities that I thought I was going to have to explore options within the legal profession, or even explore options outside of the legal profession. Because the truth is that, I remember having conversations with friends in law school where we were like, "This seems like it's going to be completely miserable. What is your exit strategy for this?"And we were talking about, "I'm going to invest in real estate. I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that." We were already plotting and scheming how we were going to get out of being lawyers before we graduated. And one of the reasons that I went to New York was because in my mind, I always thought of New York as being the place in America that had the most opportunity per square foot that it's like, "I don't know what I want to do next. I've always tried to be open minded and sort of follow my nose and take opportunities as they come. So I'm going to go to New York, I'm going to have a little money in my pocket. I'm going to know people. I'm going to meet people and something will come up." Well that doesn't really happen when you're in the midst of one of the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression. So everything shifted from, you know, wide open horizons and, like, Mary Tyler Moore sitting around in the middle of the street and throwing your hat in the air to like, just try not to starve to death. Can we do that? How about we can pay the rent and eat food? Let's do that. And so it became a situation where there weren't really options to do anything in terms of exploring career alternatives inside or outside of the legal profession. And I got basically forced down a path of becoming a corporate litigator, and then tried litigation a number of different areas and just never really found a place in it that felt worthwhile.

Scott Anthony Barlow 05:30
What do you mean when you say felt worthwhile? What does that mean for you?

Adam Bloom 05:34
You know, it's interesting, I remember when I did orientation, my first year of law school was at University of Arizona, and then I transferred to UCLA where I graduated, but there was a speaker at orientation in Arizona, who gave this very impassioned speech about how being a lawyer was like being a samurai. And he said that one of his favorite feelings was to walk into a courtroom and know that everyone in the courtroom was against him. And he said, "And you take out your sword, and you just weighed in, you know, and you're just going to go and fight and come out with having persuaded everybody to be on your side." And I've worked in politics. And, you know, I kind of, I liked the idea of law as almost a fighting style, where it's like, "I don't want to get in a fight with fists, or knives or guns, I want to get in a fight with words and ideas." That's the kind of battle that I want to have. And that's what I want to do with my career. And I want to find, so I kind of felt like, you know, like Ronin, I was the wandering Samurai, I was looking for the fight that was worth having, you know. I can talk. I can write. I can think. I can strategize, who can I do this for that would feel satisfying would be worth my time. And I swear to you, in 12 years, I don't think I ever found it. And the truth was that the process of litigation was just not interesting to me. It was tedious and boring. And you know, mostly what I found was that the clients who could pay were mostly not worthwhile, and the clients who were worthwhile couldn't pay. And so if you want to have those two sides of feeling like your work is satisfying and having a comfortable standard of living within the legal profession, it's very, very hard. And the other thing that just fundamentally changed in the US economy, like the world just turned, was going into that 2008 recession. I saw the world one way and coming out of it, the world was just different. I mean, I was wrong. I had job offers with law firms in San Francisco, and I turned them down to go to New York, because I said "No, there's more opportunity in New York. New York will be more exciting" wrong. When that dust settled on that 2008 recession, the world revolved around San Francisco, it was Facebook, Apple, Amazon, Netflix, and Google, the Fang stocks, those were the people who were defining the future, running the economy, that's where it was at. And I had simply missed the boat. And it just fundamentally shifted the way I thought about where I wanted to be and what I wanted to do. You know, as I say, I just never found a home in the legal profession that felt like that combination of the things that you talk about, that you and I have spoken about at length. People who share your values, people who treat you in a way that, you know, you want to be treated, that you enjoy working with, who you enjoy personally, at least to some degree, so that you can spend a lot of time around them, and work that feels meaningful and feels like a fit, and also allows you to support yourself in a lifestyle that meets your needs and your wants, frankly, and I just never found that combination of factors in legal profession. And increasingly felt ridiculous where, you know, as a lawyer, you're working insanely hard on very complicated issues and making just a lot less money than people who are working much less hard on less complicated things that look like a lot more fun. And at some point, I think for me, I woke up and I said, you know, "I don't want to be the lawyer. I want to be the client. I'm tired of helping other people with their stupid ideas. I want to work on my stupid ideas."

Scott Anthony Barlow 08:51
Let me jump in here. You know what's really interesting here, a lot of different things. But one in particular, that orientation that you were talking about where he's describing the role that he has, and looking at it as the Samurai, like, clearly law was right for that person, or at least it sounds like, based on how he's describing it where that was... even though you wanted to be able to, you know, have that war or have that battle, or have that fight with words and being able to do it in that way, like clearly law was not right for you. But I think what's so interesting there is it's so much about finding what is right. And, I know from chatting with you, and just to give a little bit of context here, this isn't something that happens all the time. But Adam and I got the opportunity to do a little bit of work together. Because as you were getting into writing, I know I'm jumping ahead in your story here, part of your experiments were to take on different types of writing and we got to do a couple of projects together, which were super fun, and it allowed me to get to know you and your story a whole bunch more. And one of the things I remember chatting with you about is there were a couple really significant low points in your law career. So I'm wondering if you can describe some of those to us? And then what caused you to decide to make the final decision to transition out of law in one way or another?

Adam Bloom 10:09
Yeah. I mean, as I said, you know, well, first of all, yeah, I thought, I guess to say thank you. I mean, the opportunities that we had to work together were really helpful to me and the career change, both from the perspective of having work and writing work to do that was interesting and had some money coming in. And also, frankly, was extra free education for me and your, sort of, philosophy of career change and, sort of, a philosophy of life overall. Because I think the thing that I came to grasp more and more was this sort of holistic approach to... yeah, you need a good job. But the idea that your job is over here and your life is over there is silly. The two are intertwined in a way that is, you know, completely inextricable, and so you need to think, not just your ideal job, but your ideal life, and how does one fit into the other. And so I felt like, I got a lot of free career coaching out of doing that writing work. So that was extra fun for me. But yeah, I mean, low points in my legal career, you know, I remember starting when you are in law school, the way you get kind of brought into the profession is you get a summer job, and I took a summer job and you interview for them. It's a very intense interview process. You have to do it during the school year while you're studying. And you know, they do call back interviews, you have to travel for the interviews often and, you know, it's very difficult to get one of these jobs, and then you get one. And I remember the first day they were walking us around and they said they were giving us our offices. And they showed me my office. And I looked in there and I was like, "Oh, no, no. Something is, you know, I'm not going in there." You know, it was literally like the scene in the movie where the guy's been sent to jail, and he's walking down the long hallway carrying his blankets, right? And he has to go like, "here's your cell." That's how I felt where I was just like, great, you know, lock me in this box, why don't you. So immediately, it was kind of there were pretty clear signals that this was not going to be a long term fit for me. And then, you know, as I said, I mean, the experience at Jones Day was very difficult, because we were in the middle of a recession. And the firm, you know, was sort of operated on the idea that they always have more work than they could possibly handle, which when the world is not ending is true. But when the economy is collapsing, it requires a different level of planning and management acumen, which frankly, they did not have. And I hung on there for two, almost three years. And then just one day, out of the blue, got a call from the partner who ran my practice group, and he said, you know, "We're gonna have to let you go, you're going to have to look for something else." And I, you know, I asked him "why". And he said, "Well, the truth is that the quality of your work here is just not up to our standards here at Jones Day", which was nonsense, because, you know, I had had an annual review with him, not two months earlier, where he had told me verbatim, "You're a hard worker, and you do good work." Two months later, my work is not up to snuff. So it was ridiculous. It was just a cover for the fact that they had too many lawyers and not enough work, and the economy was not repairing. And so I had to go. So they gave me that notice, right in like October or November, which is the worst time to be looking for a job because it's the holidays. So nobody's thinking about hiring, everybody's thinking about trying to survive to the end of the year, and then getting to stop for a couple of weeks. So it put me in this, you know, in this awkward spot of trying to find a new job when no one was hiring. It not... let stand... I mean, on top of the fact that it was this terrible deep recession. So I ended up at the New York City Law Department, which is basically the city's law firm. They have lawyers who represent the city in various capacities, and I was hired to defend the city and civil rights lawsuits. So it was basically people who accused the police of using excessive force or corrections officers of using excessive force, they would sue the city and I would defend those lawsuits. And truthfully, they ran the gamut. There were some suits where we were wrong. The city was wrong. The cops had had misbehave, the corrections officers misbehaved. And we would look at that and say, "Yeah, we were wrong here." And we would settle, we would pay out. And there were some cases where, you know, people would come in, and the lawsuit would say... "so and so was standing on the corner of this street, and that street minding his own business, when the police grabbed him for no reason, threw him against the wall, handcuffed and slammed his head into the hood. The handcuffs were too tight. They drove him around for two hours before they even took him to the station." Say, "Oh, my god." and I would talk to the arresting officer and say, "What happened here?" They'd say, "The guy's drug dealer. He deals drugs on that corner. You know, we've arrested him dealing drugs in that exact corner. 12 different times." So sometimes we were right. Sometimes they were right. But the reason I had taken the job was because after the experience of doing corporate litigation at Jones Day, I wanted to try and find something that felt more meaningful. And when you're studying law, the cliche almost is that there's nothing more meaningful or socially beneficial than fighting for people's civil rights. So I say great, let me try and find a way into that world. You know, if I get a job on the defense side, then maybe I can pivot and to a job on the plaintiff side. Well, what turns out to be is that a civil rights plaintiff's attorney is pretty much like any other plaintiff's attorney, they have to keep the lights on, you know, somebody's got to pay for the suits and the haircuts and the office and the Secretary and the Mercedes and the apartment and the kids private school. And in order to do that, you have to represent some people who you would probably rather not represent. Some of them deal drugs. Some of them are career criminals. Some of them are innocent people who were attacked by the police. No question, right. Who were wrongfully hurt by the police, but some of them are not. And I just looked at that and was like, "Not a fit for me. You know, this is not going to be the long term solution here." So I moved on from that. And I moved, as I mentioned, graduated from UCLA law, and, you know, had wanted to go back to California. So I moved back to California, got a job with a small law firm. Thinking I've done a big law firm. I've done a public sector law firm. Let's try a small law firm. Well, I stayed there for two years and did not have a great experience. That's the short answer there. I was very bored. I wasn't crazy about the people I was working with. I was not crazy about the work that I was doing. It was just dull all around. And so I left there and finally was like, I want to try some different stuff. But I was applying for jobs. And by that point, I've been practicing for 6, 7 years. And when you're that far into a legal career, nobody wants to let you try new stuff. They want to hire you for the stuff that you know how to do. So it's the quote that I would always mention to you, I think from True Detective that first season when it's Woody Harrelson and Matthew McConaughey chatting about being cops. I think it's Woody Harrelson says, "You got to be careful what you get good at." That was always like the quote over the door for me of my legal career was like, "Yeah, dude, you went down this road. And now this is what you know how to do when the US economy. So bully for you, you know, you can be a corporate litigator. And that's it."

Scott Anthony Barlow 16:43
The Howling of Pigeons, for sure.

Adam Bloom 16:45
That's right, the howling of pigeons. Yes. So I started my own legal practice as a way to say like, well, if no one will give me the opportunity to do what I want to do, then I will create it. So I started a practice where I did some corporate litigation, but I also did entertainment law, and I did start up law, was working with new startups and helping them raise money and onboard employees and, you know, form corporations, form LLCs. And, you know, that was okay, it was better. And I really liked the feeling of independence and being in control of my own destiny. And I enjoyed running my own business, but the legal practice was still legal practice. Now, the interesting thing was at the same time, a few years earlier, actually, when I was in New York, I'd started doing stand up, just as a creative outlet in my spare time. I'd always been interested in it and I just thought I'd give it a try. And, you know, it was the recession and I'd lost the job at Jones Day. And I was like, whatever. I'm at a point now where, you know, I'm willing to take some chances. Let's throw it around a little bit. So I started...

Scott Anthony Barlow 17:40
Let's do this.

Adam Bloom 17:41
Yeah, exactly. Like, literally, what is there to lose. I started doing open mics, and I loved it. I really enjoyed it. It was fun when I got laughs. It was fun when I did not get laughs. It was fun when there was three people in the audience. It was fun when there were 100 people in the audience. I just enjoyed it. And I met someone, in the course of doing that, who was also like, he had a career, he was doing open mics. And he and I were both interested in screenwriting, which was the other thing that I'd taken up. And so I moved to LA and he moved to LA. And we ended up starting a production company together that I ran alongside my legal practice for about five years. And we settled into a niche of making what we called horror content about technology. So we had videos that went viral on YouTube, we got an investment from Snap Inc, through their yellow startup accelerator program, which was a very sort of selective, prestigious program. We had some success there. And it was a lot of fun. And I learned a lot about digital content and filmmaking and running a startup and, you know, really having the experience of not just advising as an attorney, somebody else who's saying, "Look, I think I have an investor, can you help?" But being the guy who has to go out and find the investor, you know, negotiate that deal, get the documents closed, get the money in the door, and then figure out how to grow the company, which was all really fascinating. But you know, as I say, I ran that business for five years. And after five years, we'd had some success, but we hadn't really taken off in the way that I had hoped. So I decided it was time to move on and find what was next. So in terms of low points in my legal career, and trying to leave my legal career, I look at it as there were three sincere attempts that I made to get out of practicing law. It was like I was one of the dinosaurs in Jurassic Park, just trying to find the weak point in the fence. I think the first one was, let's see, in 2014, I left the small firm that I had joined when I moved to LA and before starting my own practice, I thought, you know, "maybe I could get out of law entirely." And I consulted a career coach who, you know, I had one session with and I told her I was interested in screenwriting and she flew into a very red faced rant about how the entertainment business was nasty and people are each other and stab each other in the back. And so whatever I do, I should make sure not to get into that business. And then she sent me on my way. And I was like, "Okay, thanks. I'll put that in a hopper and see what I can do about that."

Adam Bloom 17:41
Yeah, exactly. Super helpful. Thank you. Yeah. So that was that and, you know, but I looked at, could I get into advertising? Could I get into real estate? Could I get into, you know, just casting about for anything like, Please, could I just stop doing this lawyer nonsense and do anything else. And one of the things I ran into was, you know, I was in my mid 30s, and I've been practicing law for a few years. And so people would say, "Well, you're too senior to be junior because you're a lawyer, and you're, you know, older, but you don't have any experience in our industry. So you're too junior to be senior." So I was kind of betwixt in between, in a way where they were like, "we just kind of don't have a place for you, I'm sorry." And so I ended up settling on starting my own practice. So that was attempt number one, abortive attempt number one to get out passing law. Number two was when my startup production company, when we got the investment from snap, they really like put their arm around us and said, "We're very excited about your company, we love the content that you guys make, we're going to help you raise more money, like we're going to put you on a rocket ship and send you to the moon." So I was, like, "Great. Train is leaving the station. Finally, here we go." And what happened was, while we were in that program, the global market for digital media venture backed digital media just collapsed around us, it was almost like, you know, it was perfect. It was like the tribulations of job. As soon as we got the investment, there were a number of very high profile bankruptcies and closures that happened in digital media, there was a company called defy media that had raised 10s of millions of dollars, 70 million, I think from venture capitalists, and just one Friday, they just sent an email to all the employees and said, "The company is over. Please do not come in on Monday, we're done." And so people looked at that and said, "Okay, well, if they can't make it, then probably this idea of like putting 10s of millions of dollars into a content company that just makes content and expecting to get it back somehow, on the back end, it just doesn't work." And that was like there had been a five, six, maybe seven year trend of people making those kinds of investments. And it came to a precipitous halt, right at the moment that my partner and I were going out and saying, "Well, yeah, they didn't make it. But you should really take a look at what we make." And they were like, "Yeah, thanks. No."

Scott Anthony Barlow 20:10
I don't think I knew about that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:25
Track record of timing,

Adam Bloom 22:27
Timing. Yes. It has not escaped my attention. I think you and I have talked about it. But, you know, it felt... I mean, I didn't try to dwell on it too much, because it's a little self pitying. But, you know, I graduated law school into the great recession. And then I tried to raise money for a digital media startup, while the digital media market was going into a crater. You know, it was just like, well, what are you going to do? So... But yeah, when...

Scott Anthony Barlow 22:55
I think it's good, though. I think it's good. Because, honestly, I'm not sure that you would have made the type of transitions and this latest transition in the same way, had you not been through that.

Adam Bloom 23:08
That's right. And, you know, that's always the story of your life is like, you know, whatever happens to you for good or for ill, you have to learn from it and you have to integrate in a way and, you know, my mom always likes to say "things happen for a reason." And my thought is, "Yeah, but you have to find the reason." you know, what I mean? Like, you have to make that reason happen. You know, for example, when I got laid off from Jones Day, one of the things and when I sat down and was like, "Okay, how do I, you know, turn this into an opportunity was, well, without the pressure of feeling like I have a major, you know, Corporation looking over my shoulder, I can do whatever I want now. I'm gonna go do stand up." And that was a tremendous experience and something that I loved and, you know, an experience that I'll never forget, that I've gotten away from, but I actually hope to get back to. But, you know, it's things like that, where you have to be able to kind of alchemize those setbacks into new opportunities. And say, the fact that this did not work out has to create a new opportunity somewhere. But the timing issue is especially interesting, because I was really bound and determined that I wanted to be on time for something. And so to feel, you know, as I said, I had first approached the crypto space in 2017, 2018, and so to feel like that wave coming up underneath me in 2020 and 2021 I was like, I get it, you know, like I could be on time for this. I'm a little bit late, at least relative to, you know, people who created these technologies in the like, starting in 2010. But I said I think I'm still early enough that I could get in on this because by and large, most people, even most of my friends, like, I have a brother who's a software engineer and he barely understands anything about crypto, he's just not very interested in the space. He knows a little but he doesn't know what the way that I do. And when I would talk to him about it, he would kind of shrugged me off and be like, "I don't know." So I was like, wow, well, if, you know, if it's still taking this long to sink in, then I could be on time for this. There's an opportunity here to get in, maybe not on the ground floor but like on the first or the second floor, which is close enough, we'll take it. I just felt very keenly that as I studied the technology and learned about what under pinned all of it were, it's really... people look at it, and they're like, so which coin should I buy? How do I make money on this this week? And it's like, now you got to zoom out, pull back and understand, like, the point of this technology is not this coin or that coin, the point is that they are remaking from the ground up the architecture of the internet in a way that is going to make the entire internet world more open, more democratic, and more accessible and take a quantum leap, hopefully, towards the original vision of the internet, which was to create a digital space where any person could realize their potential to do whatever it is that you can come up with to do on the internet; to access information, to access business, to access education, to connect with other people, to learn ideas, to share ideas. I mean, if you want to live in Manhattan, you have to buy an apartment in Manhattan, right? You got to physically go. But short of that, there are so many things you can do on the internet that create opportunities for people that simply did not exist. And you can open a business in Oklahoma out of your garage and have customers all over the world. And it's not even a big deal.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:18
Or Moses Lake Washington and...

Adam Bloom 26:20
Moses Lake Washington, yes.

Scott Anthony Barlow 26:21
All over the world.

Adam Bloom 26:22
Yeah. And you know, and to connect with them, and to do business with them, and to really take the next step forward in unlocking finance and business away from the sort of large intermediaries, like, the legacy banks who take fees, and you know, and credit card processors who insert themselves in the middle of your business deals and charge fees that they spend on CEO salaries and advertising expense accounts, and why do I have to pay for that? And you know, companies like Google and Facebook who say, "Yeah, we'll give you these products, if you give us all of your personal information. Like everything you've ever done." Well, what if I could get the product without having to give up all of my data? I mean, what if that was a thing? And that is really the promise of blockchain technology and cryptocurrency technology as I see it. And to me, that's fascinating, because I'm old enough to remember when the internet was born. And while I was playing basketball, and talking to my friends in high school on instant messenger, there were people who were literally remaking the world with this technology. And I just sort of let it go by. I wasn't interested in software engineering, I wasn't interested in web design. I didn't get it. I didn't see it. And it all happened sort of while I was focused on other things, because I was 18 or 20. But this time, I was like, I'm not... fool me once, right? Shame on you. Fool me twice, it's time to get on this. That was my attitude approaching the crypto space, was there's a lot of opportunity here and I'm going to find something for myself within this space. This is, I think, going to shape the next 20, 30 years and I want in and so what was interesting was through the process of working with you and working with Mo was really starting to zero in on, number one, this question of, "what do I want?" It's an incredibly vexing question. And I think I often think about the story that you told when we were working on or writing projects together about being an HR person, and having this experience of interviewing people and asking them, "Tell me something that you disliked that you don't want to repeat from your prior job." And they had a laundry list of 50 things that they did not want to happen again, and then saying, "Okay, now tell me something that you affirmatively positively do want from this job that will allow you to achieve your goals of taking this role." And people didn't have an answer. You know, by and large, they knew what they were running from, but they didn't know what they were running to. And I think that for me, there was some of that, it was very easy to wake up in the morning and saying, "I feel unhappy. I feel bored. I feel under compensated, underappreciated and uninterested in my work. I don't want to do this anymore." "Great. What do you want to do instead?" And I was not certain that I knew that answer. And so that is, at least for me, and I think, based on our conversations, you know, and what you've told me about your experience with other clients, I suspect that's the work for a lot of people is figuring out what do you actually want? What is your ideal life? And how does your professional work fit into that? And what does that look like everything from, you know, do you want to work from home? Or do you want to work in an office to what profession, what sector the economy? You know, do you want your own business? Do you want to work for a company? If so, what kind? You know, what size? Nailing down all those things and going through, you know, the puzzle method and then doing the career experiments to say like, "Alright, well, I like writing. Let's try writing. You know, what writing gigs can I get? I like writing. I like creativity. I like producing videos, could I do that for an ad agency?" And you know, I approached that a little bit. I was just sort of throwing it around and seeing what felt good and where people responded to me and where I could find a connection. One of the tools that I took advantage of that, you know, I think you often refer people to was that Gallup StrengthFinder test, which was a very interesting sort of experience. Because, you know, what I took from that was, number one, they said a lot of things that I think I believe to be true where they're like, "You enjoy ideas, you enjoy sort of high level creativity and strategy and writing." And I was like, "Sure, yes." You know, and... but they put... there were a couple of things. They put the word strategist around it, they put the word futurist around it, you know, I was teasing my girlfriend, I was like, "I took this test and they say, I'm a futurist. Lucky you. You know, you're dating a futurist." So I started like, Googling around where I was like, well, that sounds cool. What does a futurist do? It turns out most of the people who are, you know, futurist, like qua futurist where that is their whole title, they basically write books about what they think is going to happen in the next 30 years. Which is okay, but didn't 100% feel like exactly what I wanted to do. But it did get me focused on the fact that I do have an interest in technology, and that I do have an interest in trying to predict trends and see where things are going. And so again, when crypto bubbled up, it kind of checked that box where I was like, "I can see this, this is a high tech futuristic kind of thing that is happening right now that I could conceivably get in on." And so it did help focus me on that opportunity. And also the fact that they had called me out and said like, "You're a strategist." So just when I was looking around, like even searching on LinkedIn, or searching on Google and saying, who's hiring for what, I started throwing the word strategist into my searches, and it opened up, before I've been saying copywriter. I'm writer, I'm a copywriter, what do you need for copywriting? And so I was seeing a list of opportunities for those kinds of roles. But then when I threw strategist into it, I started seeing other roles, and that was very interesting. And the other thing I'll say, that came out of the StrengthsFinder test that I was not expecting was they have a whole section on your weaknesses. And one of the weaknesses that they highlighted for me was, "You don't place a particular emphasis on forming personal relationships or forming relationships at work." And I was like, "how dare you?" You know, but then I thought about it. And I was like, "Look, I've been a lawyer for 12 years, I haven't liked being a lawyer. Most of the people who I met at work were other lawyers. So naturally, I was not terribly excited about going out for drinks with them after work and talking about all the boring crap that we had worked on all day." So yeah, I had I realized neglected that part of just my personal development, my professional development. And I started placing a lot of emphasis, a lot of emphasis on just talking to people, just doing the thing of reaching out to people on LinkedIn, reaching out to people however I could, "Hey, what you're doing seems interesting. Can we chat for 15 minutes?" You know, people who wrote for video game companies. People who, you know, I found a job listing for a position that was called Content Strategist. And I read that and it was like, facepalm, you know, I couldn't believe it. I was like, "Yes, that's an exact description of what I should be doing. I can't believe I didn't think of that." So I applied for that job and ended up not getting it. But I reached out to the guy who ran the company, and he and I ended up chatting. And, you know, there were a lot of things like that. There was just a lot of like, connecting, activating the network, who do I know? Who do they know? What can I talk to them about? Just anything to try and build connections, and it would spark ideas. You know, eventually, what I came to was I wanted to start a company that I pitched for a few months called backer, which was a marketplace to crowdfund movies using NFT's, which is a lot of businessy cryptocurrency jargon, and I won't give the whole pitch. But basically, it was like a version of Kickstarter where you paid with cryptocurrency. And what you got was an NFT, which is a unique sort of digital receipt, a token that proves your ownership of really anything. And in this case, it was going to be a unique piece of artwork that represented an ownership share of a movie. And so I worked on that pitch for a few months and connected with a lot of new people and got a lot of interest in it. But two things became clear, number one, was that it was going to take me a while to get funded. I thought I could do it quick because crypto was very hot. But in May the crypto market collapsed and, you know, sort of had been growing very quickly and took a breath, you could say charitably. So at that point, it was like the energy, the frenetic energy that had been in that space left. And so I was like, "Okay, well, I still believe in this, but it's going to be a longer road. It's going to take more time. There's not the overabundance of hype and enthusiasm that there was before the crash."

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:26
Adam, tell me about what you get to do now.

Adam Bloom 34:29
Yeah, sure. So what I eventually came to was, I'd been trying to do backer for a few months, and it was coming along, but it was moving slower than I wanted. And I said, "I really want to find something that can start getting me and come now." And so I started looking for opportunities, like, I was just going to LinkedIn and running searches that said "blockchain strategist" and I surfaced a job listing with Coinbase that was hiring content strategists. And so I very simply just submitted my resume and two days later got an email from an HR person at the company and went through a recruitment process and got an offer and accepted and joined the company. And so what I'm doing now is I'm creating both writing content, potentially doing content and other media as well, that we're considering and sort of developing an overall strategy for the content for Coinbase, which is a cryptocurrency exchange, if people don't know, it's a place where you can buy and sell cryptocurrencies. That recently had an IPO. So they're the first crypto exchange to go public, definitely in the US, and I believe in the world. And so beyond the exchange platform, that was their sort of first big product, they're expanding into a lot of new things. And so there's a lot of messaging and content work to do around, number one, continuing to bring people into the crypto space in terms of just allowing them to understand, what is a cryptocurrency? What is a blockchain? How do you invest in this? Why would you want to? How does this all work? And what does it mean? And why should you care about it? But then number two, to start thinking, sort of in a forward looking way about, what are the things that the company is going to do next? And how do we communicate with people about those? And so there are a lot of different opportunities in terms of consumer facing content that we can create, that I'm helping sort of strategize and create. And so it's everything from, you know, help pages to other kinds of media that we're looking at, to put out, to just kind of explain to people what this technology is and how it works. I mean, I gave you the basic high level pitch about, you know, what they call web 3.0, that it's a whole new internet.

Scott Anthony Barlow 36:38
How does this tick the boxes or many more of those boxes for you in terms of what you wanted? Because we got to talk all the way through, like way back when you were lawyering it up during the early stages of your career, and that was not ticking very many boxes, in so many different ways. And then for each progression, and even though you felt like you missed out on different sets of timing, there were so many learnings from that, that allowed you to be able to realize pieces of what you didn't need. So how does this next evolution of that tick many more of those boxes?

Adam Bloom 37:13
Yeah, I think that, number one, I wanted to be engaged with subject matter that I felt like was interesting and exciting and fascinating and forward looking. I had never been able to do that as an attorney, it always sort of devolved into the same kind of arguments about nothing. You know, I used to say it was like the monopoly man versus Mr. Burns, and who really cares who wins, you know. This rich guy, or that rich guy. Frankly, the great innovation of corporate litigation is the best alternative to physical violence. You know, in the Middle Ages, it was like, if two rich people got in a fight, they just went and got all their serfs, and said, "Put down here your crappy plows and stop raking your dirt. I need you to go fight a war for me." Well, so what we do instead of that now was we have lawsuits. And that's great. But I don't know if it's where I need to spend my life. It feels like I'm contributing to something that is meaningful, and interesting, and fascinating, and innovative. And frankly, I mean, my jaw is just constantly on the floor, hearing some of these kids who are like half my age who were talking about quadratic voting, and talking about, you know, consensus mechanisms, and are just going at 100 miles an hour spinning up ideas for how to organize businesses, how to democratize the flow of money around the world, how to open up opportunities for artists to connect with their audiences without having to go through the sausage grinder of intermediaries, like, studios and record labels. It's fascinating, and the possibilities are literally infinite. You know, I'm just astounded by the amount of sheer intellect that is in this space. And frankly, you know, I used to joke that, like that poem, how, you know, I saw the best minds of my generation wasted something, something, I always used to think I saw the best minds of my generation making exercise app, like, "what are you all doing?" you know, it is just what they call web 2.0, this sort of App Store and Facebook and Google, it was like, at a certain point, this stuff has ceased to feel revolutionary, it has ceased to feel like it's moving us forward. And it has just become a cash grab for big corporations. And so it is very exciting to feel like there are real ideas here. I mean, ideas that I admit humbly are beyond me to come up with. I'm just excited to engage with them and to be a part of what is going on in this space. Because I really think it at least has the potential to reshape so much of the economy and especially the internet in the next 20, 30 years. So it's creative. I like the people I'm working with. And for the first time, I feel like I have people who are saying to me, you know, when I was a lawyer, it was like, you know, "You're doing a good job at this and this, but we really need to tone it down. It's too many jokes, it's too much talking, you're talking too much." I mean, I've had a litany like a murderer's row of partners at law firms tell me, "When we're in a meeting with a client, you got to stop talking so much. You know, I'm the partner." So it's like, "I get it, but I know this stuff better than you and what you're telling them is wrong." So you know, it's nice to finally be in a place where I feel like, and this is one of the things that I think you and I talked a lot about, just sort of as a career goal is where you feel like you can bring your entire self to it. You know, like, when I was doing creative stuff as a lawyer, I felt like I had to hide it. That god forbid, anyone at my firm should know that I do stand up. You know now, it's like, I have a podcast, and they're happy about it at Coinbase. They're like, "Great, you know, don't share any confidential information. And, you know, don't get us in a fight with anybody. But other than that, go have fun."

Scott Anthony Barlow 40:50
So let me ask you about that really quick here. Because I think that that is important. You and I got into some really deep discussions through some of the projects that we're working on about how, even though you might get to what you want, even though it can be wonderful, you can still feel a variety of different things. And I know that you experienced variety of different feelings, even though you were getting some of what you want, as you were experimenting in different areas, too, along the way, even before this opportunity. And I'm curious, so first question is, what does that feel like now that you can bring so much more yourself to work that you couldn't before? And then two, what has been wonderful about that, or hard about that?

Adam Bloom 41:31
Yeah, I'd say what has been wonderful about it is it really felt like going into my legal career. I felt it at the time, I felt it during the 12 years that I was trapped in it. And I feel it looking back is that I just missed my turn, you know what I mean? I just missed an exit, like, I should not have been in there. And I just couldn't get out of it. And so to be working now for a technology company and doing work that is creative, and collaborative, and really forward looking feels like what I should have been doing in the first place. I learned a lot as a lawyer, I met a lot of people, I had a lot of wonderful experiences. It's not like it was, you know, I wouldn't say it was a waste of time. But I would say it was not the best use of, you know, my efforts, like it just did not feel like what I needed to be doing with myself. And so it feels like yeah, "This is it. This is definitely, finally, the track that I should have been on in the first place." What's hard about it ism honestly, there is part of me that is like, gee, it's like I'm the dog coming out of the shelter that is waiting to get kicked. Where I'm like, "You guys really liked me, you know, like, you really are okay with me, it's really..." I just keep waiting for like the bad thing to happen. You know what I mean? Like, for a few days before I started at Coinbase, I had trouble sleeping, because I was like, you know, there's something going to happen here, you know, something is going to go wrong here, like, and just waiting to find out that similar to every law firm I ever worked for that it was all smiles and handshakes and backslaps. And then as soon as you got in the door, it was some sort of waking nightmare. And I was sort of waiting for that to happen. And it didn't. And so it took me a few days to accept, like, yeah, this could actually be a good place, this could actually be somewhere where I want to get up and go every day, you know, at least metaphorically, because we work remotely but still. And so I think there was a little bit of an adjustment that I'm probably still settling into of, number one, like you don't have to pretend to be... because lawyers, I think, in large part, get off on behaving like lawyers, you wear the suit, you stand up straight, you speak a certain way, you act a certain way, you know, you comb your hair a certain way, everybody's there because they want to be a lawyer, and even the ones who aren't there are faking it, because god forbid, they get caught out, you know, like being a weirdo. You know, it's different to be in a place where I don't have to do any of that. And then to understand like, okay, so this is a different dynamic, how do I fit into it in a way that feels honest, and so to speak true to who I am, but at the same time is like accommodating to my teammates? I mean, how do you do this in a way that is appropriate for this industry and for this company? Because it's, you know, it's a different rhythm. And it's a different environment than a law firm or, you know, a legal practice or anything like that. So there's an adjustment there. And I just tried to be very mindful of like, the etiquette and what's appropriate, and where I'm allowed to make a joke and where I really shouldn't. So yeah, that's the ongoing adjustment, but it's not, you know, catastrophic. It's just something that I need to be mindful of that like, yeah, "you can be yourself but you know, you need to get stuff done. And you need to make sure that you're making everybody else feel comfortable around you that you're not stepping on toes" so to speak. So...

Scott Anthony Barlow 44:36
When we started working with you just under a year ago, I guess looking back on that, a lot has happened for you. You've done a really really nice job of making a lot happen for yourself. So first of all, just wanted to say that because that... I know I've told you that before but is so true, and I just feel very compelled to say that, make sure that you know that again. And then my question, even with all that, I know this was far... this transition was the furthest thing from easy for you. It was not that easy at all. So I'm curious about what were some of the hardest parts for this most recent transition for you?

Adam Bloom 45:15
Yeah. So there are two that I would highlight: number one was, well, before we started recording, we were chatting a little bit. You mentioned I'd had a job with a startup here in LA that they hired me to write content about, sort of, certain legal subject matter. And they offered me a full time job. And it was the first job that I had been offered to do anything other than be a lawyer since I worked on the presidential campaign in 2004. So like, 16 years, 17 years, you know, I got the offer. And it was funny, because my girlfriend and I had taken a weekend and just gotten a hotel room in LA, so that we had a sort of little staycation and we knew the offer was coming. So like, there was a bathtub in the room. So we had a bubble bath, and we had a bottle of champagne. And I got the offer. And I looked at the offer. And she looked at me and I was like, "This is not good." I was like, "This doesn't work." So like that was... it was a very sort of funny scene. But yeah, as you know, I mean, as you and I discussed a lot at the time, I talked to them about it and was like, "Listen, this isn't quite what I was hoping for, can we talk about this?" And ultimately, we were not able to come to an agreement, and I turned it down. And so at the time, it felt like, wow, I was obviously had some regret around that, and was that the right decision? And you know, was that a mistake? And what am I going to do now? But I think you and I talked about it. And you said very often that you find that with people who change careers successfully, somewhere along the line, they'll get a job, but turn it down because they realize it's good, but it's not ideal. And so to be honest, upon reflection, I felt sort of empowered that, like, somebody could offer me a job, not as a lawyer. And rather than have this desperate, frenzied attitude that you always had as a lawyer, especially during the recession of, "you need a job, there's a law firm offering you a job, just take the job, they'll give you money, you know, like don't interrogate it, don't go asking them for this or that. Just say yes, and move on. Sit at the desk, do the work, take the money, go home, try not to get fired." So to be able to actually come to a situation and say like, "Yeah, this is good, but it's not great. I really appreciate it, guys. But I don't think this is for me. Thanks, anyway." that in and of itself was kind of empowering. And obviously, you know, a few months later, I ended up with this offer from Coinbase, that as I've told you is just a much better fit all the way around, I didn't have to do anything related to law, which was a huge relief. I got to work on something that was much more interesting. And it was just, you know, it's a better established company. And I think all the way around was just a better fit for me. So the turning down the job offer was the first challenge I would highlight. The second one was I spent a few months trying to, as I mentioned, raise money for this startup. It was taking longer than I thought, I was living off of my savings. And I looked at my bank account, and I did a little back of the envelope math and realized that I was going to be out of money pretty soon. And so I had to start looking for something that would make money right away. And I had been applying for some part time copywriting gigs, but just wasn't landing anything, which can happen, copywriting is like that. So I actually started emailing recruiters and former legal clients and saying, you know, "I'm back open for business. If you need legal help, I'm lawyering again. I can help you." And I had some people give me a couple of assignments. So I was right back on the precipice of going back to practicing law just by pure economic necessity. And I was like, "Here we go again, man, third try and just can't get the escape velocity to get out of the atmosphere of practicing law." like I was right on the edge of the cliff, and I submitted this resume to Coinbase, at the same time that I was emailing and talking to legal recruiters and legal clients, just to try and get some work just to make some money because I needed income. And right as I thought, you know, I failed again, this will be the third time that I've tried to escape from my legal career, and it's not going to work out, again, I got the job from Coinbase, it was just that close. But that was yeah, really scary moment where I thought, "oh my god," you know, because that was always the fear was that, you know, I had gotten myself into this hole, and I was never going to be able to get out. And you know, my father had been an attorney. And I'd watched him his whole life, just sort of with the attitude that law was not quite a fit for him, but he had no choice and he was stuck in it. And he was never happy about it. And I was bound and determined that that was not going to happen to me, but it was starting to get very scary. You know, like, "my god, am I going to be able to get out of this?" And then I did. You know, and the thing that I would highlight is, I didn't know that I was going to get that job. I didn't have a personal connection at Coinbase. I was just, you know, for all the bad timing that I've had that we've talked about, yhat was just astonishingly good timing. Coinbase was on a hiring sprint, the whole economy was coming out of the pandemic, there had been this massive reshuffling of people switching jobs, lose jobs, leaving jobs. So everyone or many people were hiring for a lot of things. And in the blockchain, crypto industry, there was a huge need for people who understood both crypto and content. And, you know, I had a screening interview with the HR person. And then I had the first interview with Eleanor, my supervisor, and five minutes into the interview, she called me a unicorn. She said, "The fact that you know crypto and you know content..." she said, "You're a unicorn." And I was like, well, that's a good sign. You don't ordinarily call someone a unicorn, and then tell them that you're not gonna make them an offer. You know, right away, it was just came together. And it was, if you... I mean, I've looked back at the form that I filled out for you and for Mo when I started the career change process, and they said, "What do you want to do?" I said, "I want to be a TV writer." That's where this started. And so you know, I was not like, "I want to be a cryptocurrency content strategist", not one of those words was anywhere in my mind as a career option when I started this process, it really was, like, you know, requires a sort of, I would say, radical open mindedness, you just have to accept the fact that you don't necessarily know where this is going to go or how it's going to get there. And you know, like the Animaniacs theme song, you have to expect the unexpected, just lean into it, just let it wash over you. Because it's an adventure. And you know, it has ups and it has downs and setbacks. But if you just keep going, just stick with it and keep going, you will get there. And that was why I got here.

Scott Anthony Barlow 51:27
What I think is so interesting out of... do you remember, and just a little bit other context, we have a really amazing piece of content that Adam helped us write and put together and it took several months, we call it fondly our career changer guide. However, we had half the team up to Moses Lake Washington, and I remember being a phone call with you, because we're working on a section of this guide, right? And I remember you saying, "Look, I'm working on the section and it doesn't make sense." And it turns out that, you know, we ended up calling this section, you know, what happens when you experience setback. And so it's all about overcoming setbacks and adjusting your plan. And I remember having the conversation with you where we're talking about, you know, the strange thing that happens over and over and over and over again, almost like clockwork, is just when people are ready to throw in the towel, that means that they're so close. And strangely enough, even though you wrote about this, like you experienced the exact same thing, where you're like, you know, on the precipice, as you called it, ready to go back to law, and like, this might just not work for me. And then that's where the opportunity was actually on the horizon. And that's what we see something like that in various different ways, every single time. So just want to ask your thoughts on that, because you and I hadn't talked about that exact thing. But it's, even though you're in it, you knew about it, you helped us write about this thing. It still happened.

Adam Bloom 53:00
You know, I think that it reminds me of the the Mark Twain quote, and I'm paraphrasing, but "it's much easier to give advice than it is to take it", the reality is that, you know, to understand that you're going to go through a journey, and it's going to have ups and downs does not release you from the obligation to go through those ups and downs. And it was very interesting for me, especially writing that career change guide, because I thought of it in the framework of a screenplay and just a basic sort of narrative arc, where you do have what they call the "all is lost" moment. Where it's like, I can't go backwards. But I don't see a way to go forwards. And I'm just stuck here. And in movies, this is often where like characters will sort of contemplate just dying, where it's like, "I can't take it anymore, can this just be over?" So you know, that was what I always thought about was just that moment of coming to the point where you absolutely don't see a way to go home, but you don't see a way to reach your destination. And knowing that that can happen, as I say, doesn't release you from the obligation to go through it. You just have to accept like, yeah, that's not going to be a fun moment. But you're going to have to go through it. And I think that especially one thing that I learned running my startup, the production company, was we had so many challenges as all startups do. And I would get frustrated, I would get upset, and I would, you know, lose sleep in whatever I did, but it came down to one question which was "Okay, well, do you want to quit or do you want to keep going?" And that fundamentally is the choice. Now, even when I was calling up former legal clients and legal recruiters and saying, you know, tail between my legs, I need some legal work. I was still doing the work, reaching out to people, submitting resumes, you know, moving my feet, just like keep moving forward. You're a hockey player. So you'll appreciate this. I played a little hockey when I was 14, and I was not built for it. I was, like, as I am now, very tall, very skinny, better suited to basketball but I wanted to play hockey. And I remember we did this exercise that was supposed to be training for what it feels like to get body checked where they lined everybody up next to the boards and then they had you skate past the row of like 20 or 30 kids and everybody just got to check you, you know. And the only piece of advice they gave you was just keep your feet moving. That was it. And they just sent you and they called it the gauntlet and they just sent you down the road and kid after kid just like slammed you into the boards, and, you know, two thirds, three quarters of them were bigger than I was. And I was just getting worked. And I was like falling down off my feet. And they're like, pushing you down. It was, you know, I remember that. I mean, 30 years, 25 years later, that was a rough exercise. But that's like, you know, at some point, that's the advice is like, just keep moving your feet, there is no way to go through this that will allow you to do it without getting hit, you're going to get hit, you just have to keep moving your feet. And it's like the same thing I say, you know, I have a son, Ezra, who's about to turn seven. And you know, when I would chat with other parents when, especially when he was younger, and he was just starting to run around and go on the playground and stuff, and we were talking about like, "Well, what do you do when they fall? What do you do if they're going to hurt themselves?" And I would say, you know, "You can't teach them not to fall. You can only teach them how to fall." And that, you can read as much or as little into that as you want, but that's my adorable metaphor. It's like, look, the bad things are going to happen. But if you can just get up and keep going, you will get where you're going. But you, you know, it's on you. Like, the choice fundamentally every time is, do you want to quit? Or do you want to keep going?" and it's your choice, and you have to own it. If you give up, that's a valid choice. You can give up. It's hard. It's completely valid to say, "This is not for me, I give up. I'm just going to go back." But that's your choice. Otherwise, you have to absorb the fact that like, yeah, there were difficult moments, there were confusing moments and frustrating moments and very scary moments where the bank account is going down, and there's no money coming in. And I'm not figuring out the career change. And I don't even know necessarily what I'm looking for. And I'm not sure I'm gonna make it. But I just decided to keep going. It's just that simple. Yeah, that's what I take from it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 56:49
That is amazing. I so appreciate you taking the time, and coming on and sharing your story. And I've told you this several times over along the way as you and I have gotten to have chats, but I just... this is super fun for me. I've been looking forward to this conversation for the podcast for a long time for your story. And I'm so glad that we get to have it.

Adam Bloom 57:12
Thanks, great work. Well, I have the unfair advantage that you and I have spent many hours talking through this stuff for our writing projects. So I've done like probably seven or eight dry runs, we could release, you know, an album of, you know, eight hours of our conversations about career change.

Scott Anthony Barlow 57:28
Oh my goodness, yeah.

Adam Bloom 57:29
Listen, I'm happy to do it. I'm very grateful for the help. And you know, it's been a pleasure to get to know you and to, you know, to have the opportunity to, sort of, become a part of your business and your life. I love what you guys do. It's made a tremendous difference in my life. And I was happy to contribute what I could to the content that we made together. And yeah, man, I mean, I'm just looking forward to keeping in touch. So I'm happy to do this. I hope it was helpful to people. And I think it's going to be a very exciting next few years for both of us. So I'm looking forward to it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 58:02
Hey, many of the stories that you've heard on the podcast are from listeners that have decided that they wanted to take action and taking the first step of having a conversation with our team to try and figure out how we can help. And if you want to implement what you have heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just open your phone right now and open your email app. And I'm going to give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com, just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And then when you do that, I'll introduce you to the right person on our team. And you can have a conversation with us, we'll try and understand your goals and what you want to accomplish in your career no matter where you're at. And we can figure out the very best way that we can help you and your situation. So open up right now and send me an email with 'Conversation' in the subject line scott@happentoyourcareer.com.

Andy Molinsky 59:15
This point my career I'm a professor, I teach for parts of the year students, undergraduates and graduate students, MBA students. I increasingly, over the past five to seven years, have started to do a lot of consulting and executive education and keynote speaking. I also do a lot of writing, a lot of non academic writing. I do some academic writing, but I do a lot now of non academic writing. In other words, writing for general audiences. I write for Inc.com, Psychology Today, Harvard Business Review, LinkedIn, and then I, you know, I've written a couple of books. I picked my kid at school a lot. So I suppose I have a part time bus driving job.

Scott Anthony Barlow 59:58
In my conversation with Andy, get to learn the five psychological roadblocks that keep you in your comfort zone and stunt your experiential growth. This is super, super cool. And then how to distinguish between which of your goals are worth following through the discomfort because there's always discomfort in some capacity anytime it's associated with things that you want in your life. And then what are the steps to take to get out of your comfort zone to be able to actually achieve those goals? Because as it turns out, none of the rest of it matters unless you can act upon it. So you know that we like to get you outside your comfort zone here, and turns out, well, Andy Molinsky is a great source of how to do that, he wrote a book and I loved his new book, actually, it's called "Reach: A New Strategy to Help You Step Outside Your Comfort Zone, Rise to the Challenge, and Build Confidence". All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.