Angela Barnard 00:01

When I think people are really saying when they say I want to be more creative, because I hear this all the time as a coach, I feel like what they're really saying is I want to live in more of an alignment. I want to feel better about what I'm doing. I want to feel good. I want to have more fun. It's like this feeling that they're really chasing.

Introduction 00:23

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:48

Okay, it's Scott. But you're not going to hear from me in this episode, because I'm taking some of our HTYC advice, and I'm stepping away from work. And this time for an entire month to be able to spend time with my family, and unplug. So I'm not going to be on this episode, or the next few. I am leaving you in great hands, of the Happen To Your Career podcast team, I know you're gonna love it.

Angela Barnard 01:09

Have you ever thought, I just want to do something more creative for work, but struggled how to make that a reality for you? If so, listen up, because you're in for a treat. Today, on the HTYC podcast, you're hearing from me, my name is Ang. I'm one of the career coaches on the team. And you're also hearing from another member on our team, Celena. So Celena is in charge of our book projects, and she also happens to be a fellow HTYC podcast listener. She was a former career coaching client. You heard that right. She used to be a client before she ended up working on the team. So it's really cool, because we get to get her perspective around that thought that she used to have, like, I want to do more creative work. So Celena, tell us a little bit about that thought, like, when you had it and what did it led to.

Celena Singh 02:03

I wanted to add one thing about me, is that I retired from the corporate world last year. And that is what led me to working with Happen To Your Career. And in my previous life, in my corporate life, I had so many thoughts about bringing creativity into... I used to work in safety, and safety is not the most exciting topic for people. So how can we bring in some creativity? And I really wanted to start a podcast. And it just didn't happen because work was piling on all the time. And I linked that because I'm in my early 20s, I wanted to become a sports broadcaster. So I can relate to so many jobs that I had that I wanted to become. We use creativity, but because I wasn't in a creative role, I thought that things that I was thinking about was not creative.

Angela Barnard 02:57

Yeah. And I was listening actually to something recently about, like, our thoughts around creativity. And a lot of us tend to think, because I think we've been trained this way, to think of being creative, like, it's only for the arts, specifically, music, drawing, like, things like that. And I think we've even been, like, programmed that way to believe that like, even in our school system around, like, what we thought was creative stuff. So then we, like, grow up, and we're in roles and we think like, well, "because I'm not, you know, a musician or legit like, artist, then I'm not creative." Like we start to, like have these beliefs, but there's still that desire in us that wants to be more creative that we're seeking. So that got me thinking about the whole definition of being creative and what that is. And I was on Google, Googling, like, "what is creativity". And really, in a nutshell, it just means that you are creating something, right? Or you're using your imagination to create something new. And when you think about it that way, it's like, all of us are creative in some way. And what I think people are really saying when they say, "I want to be more creative" because I hear this all the time as a coach, like, I always hear people say, "I want to do work that's more creative." I feel like what they're really saying is... I want to live in more in alignment. I want to feel better about what I'm doing. I want to feel good. I want to have more fun." It's like this feeling that they're really chasing.

Celena Singh 04:29

Yeah, that's almost like a psychologically safe environment that they can be themselves

Angela Barnard 04:33

Yes, that's it! It's, like, being in alignment where you can be yourself and you can, like, work to create something that you like to create.

Celena Singh 04:41

And you don't feel judged or, you know, you can really create. And I feel, like, working at Happen To Your Career and working with the coach that I did, really opened me up to realize that a lot of things I was doing more outside of my job was creative, and it's like, "that's creative." It's like, yeah, but you're looking for something. You're looking for that thing, right, that makes you feel good, makes you feel in alignment, right?

Angela Barnard 05:09

Yeah. And when we think about being in alignment, it's like some people might be like, "Oh, what do you, like, really mean by that?" I feel like it's a term, like, Celena and I are like, but... so we're always chatting about, we just geek out about all this stuff.

Celena Singh 05:21

We can just flow into conversation, right?

Angela Barnard 05:23

Yeah. And it's like, really like the whole getting into alignment. We always, like, mentioned those terms. And it's like, you know, like, when you're in the zone, or you just feel really good, you feel lighter. You see a lot of people that we think of as creative. Like when they get in the zone, it's like, you want that. It's like, I see you going into the zone. I want that.

Celena Singh 05:40

Like when Oprah would interview someone, right? And she would get into that zone. And you really know she did her research, because she would be like, "Oh, on page this..." like, she was just so...she used her voice, her kind of boss style, and to kind of twist if she could on one minute, like question somebody and the next minute, she's like, making the person cry. Right? So everybody has it. It's finding that and channeling it so that you can go with this, you know, go with the flow of it, and let it guide you.

Angela Barnard 06:12

So when you think about that feeling of being in the flow, like, doing work that I would say is creative, what are some of those things that you do now to add creativity into your life, or that is creative to you?

Celena Singh 06:25

So many things. So after I retired, I decided to start a podcast, I had no idea how to do a podcast. So I researched how to do a podcast and I wanted to... it wasn't something I wanted to do for a living, it was more I wanted to share my story. And that was a creative way to do that. And I learned something and I connected with people. But also so many things, I do yoga, meditation, I became a holistic nutritionist. I started learning how to play the piano during COVID. I just recently started an apprenticeship to learn more about astrology and tarot reading. So those are some of the things that I do for, you know, outside of my job to help me with creativity.

Angela Barnard 07:10

I love that you like pursued your curiosity. Like that's something we always talk about is like being in that energetic state where you follow your curiosity, so that you can align and be that creative person, I think that we want to be, because it's like those feelings that we're really chasing. And when all the things that you said that you did, you know, in your free time, or you're doing now, those are all examples of, like, you being creative, you creating something. The piano stuff, you create music with it. The podcast, you create content that people want to listen to. So it makes me think about like, if you were feeling like this, you're listening now and you're feeling like I want to do more creative work. I want to know, as a coach, just because I'm nosy like this, I want to know like, what do you really mean by that? Do you mean that you want to have more fun, that you want to do something that lights you up? Like what exactly do you mean? Because when you get that clarity, then you can decide what that looks like to you, and then you can take steps to be that person. And I want you to think about in your life, how can you, instead of, like, do something that's more creative, like if I get this job, then I'm more creative, then I can be more creative. I want you to think about how you can be more creative now in your life now. Like, how can you bring that creativity to whatever it is that you're already doing? So that got me thinking, Celena, for you, like, do you have an example of where like, maybe you were doing some work that you thought was kind of boring, and then you like brought creativity to it?

Celena Singh 08:38

Being in roles that I have been in the past, like, I used to do a lot of project management. And project management, a lot of times people, like, it was really boring. And I was also in safety, which is another very boring topic to people. And I loved both of those things a lot. So one of the things that I like to do is, even in my role at Happen To Your Career, any anytime I'm doing a project, is I really like to get to know the people who I'm going to be working with so that I get to know like how to work with them the best. So I feel like that's something creative, that engaging and building relationships with people, not just managing the project and making sure everybody's getting things done. It's building relationships, engaging with the team, and even how we manage the project, like listening to people's ideas and how we can work collaboratively together. How can we track things and you know, see, like, as we're working on a project where we started and where we ended up and that journey that everyone's been on, so I love to incorporate that somehow, and that didn't always come across very well in different roles I was in, because there was like, "why we're just gonna track things?" and I thought, well, sometimes people can feel more creative and inspired if they see that people really care about what they're doing. Even if somebody was doing one thing on a project, if they didn't do that one thing, it can affect the entire project. So seeing, visually seeing their progress and results and where we came from is something I really like to bring into my work.

Angela Barnard 10:15

Well, I love that. And that makes me think about how, like, what you're actually creating there is like you're creating these joyful experiences. That's what's happening there. And I see you do that often on our team of like, you just point out the goodness that is there. And then from there, this is really what we're talking about is like this energy that we all want to create more of. And if you want more of that kind of creative energy in your life, that joyful, fun energy in your life, what you need to do is generate it. And that's what you did to be more creative. So thinking about in our lives, like instead of always thinking that it needs to be external outside of us, like when I get this creative job, then I get to be more creative. Think now, how can I generate creativity and joy to where I am now even if it's, like, the most boring estate? That, maybe other people would be like, "safety?" What role, you know, snooze, you know, project management, like there's some stuff like that people will be like, "Well, you know, I already do a boring thing." I used to teach a HIPAA class. Okay, HIPAA class that people were required to go to. And I made that thing so much fun, because I remember the first time I taught it, people were like, I could hear the sighing, they did not want to be in the class, people are falling asleep, and it's like, this is so boring, like, I cannot be in the space. And I thought, like, okay, if I'm a creative person, how can I bring creativity? How can I bring joy here? This also reminds me of another statement I love which is this whole concept of rejoice always. So rejoice actually means to bring joy to. I remember when I first heard that concept, I thought it meant like, you know, it's like, okay, so I'm supposed to be happy. And like, the most miserable situations, like, how does that happen? It's like, no, you're being called to bring joy to. So then it made me think about, okay, and that HIPAA class, Ang, you can bring joy to this, you can bring creativity to this, you are in charge of like the energy that's there. Like, if you don't like the energy that's there, then shift it you have power to do so. So what I did was I made up these scenarios where people had to like act out things, like, there was HIPAA violations that would happen, we'd always talk about this is what could happen if you had a HIPAA violation, and you've violated, you know, a patient's privacy or whatever. You're the actor, you're the person that's going to call, you're going to answer the phone, and like yada, yada. So I put people in these different positions. So it was like, it was fun, because we used to, like, have a fake phone and be like, "hello, I'm calling to report..." We just like, laugh so much about this, but it's still like taught the entire concept.

Celena Singh 12:43

And people will remember. People will remember that because you're able to connect with each other rather than just reading slides or reading a book. Right?

Angela Barnard 12:51

Exactly. That's what it's really about. And I think about anything that you're doing, like I don't even care what it is, it's like, you can make it fun, you can bring a great creativity there. You don't need to feel... wait to feel good when you get an X job that's more creative.

Celena Singh 13:06

I think we were talking about this one day, it's like, when we have our status meetings, you're going for a walk. So you know, going for walking meetings, like incorporating nature, you know, just changing things like that. I know, one thing that I learned about recently is something called sentence stem. So you could say something like, "I really want to be a part of this project, because..." and give people like two or three minutes to write down why they want to be part of something, and then you can share it or keep that so that when things get really hard, you can look at that and go, "This is why I wanted to be a part of this" and then you can look at your values again and go, this is lining up with my values, this is lining up with what I really want to do.

Angela Barnard 13:50

Yeah, that's cool. So it's like when you think about it, it's like, what are the creative approaches that you can bring into what it is you're already doing? You can think about it that way. And then sometimes you get ideas. Sometimes you're like, "I still don't resonate with being creative. So I don't know what you're talking about. My dad's going to pick me." Like you still go there. But what if you switched it to kind of like, what else can you do to make this more fun? Because if you think about it, when we're saying, "well, I want to be more creative." A lot of times we're saying, "I want to have more fun. I want to enjoy my life more. I want to live more and more in alignment." What else can you do that to have more fun? How can you bring joy here? How can you bring creativity here? How can you be the light kind of thing? And what I've seen, as a coach, is like when you can do that with where you are and you stop making it about, like, I won't change to feel different until my circumstance changes, like, when you take your power back and you're like I can feel good here where I am, I can be creative here. I can bring joy here. What happens is, you shift into the state where opportunities come your way, more opportunities to be creative, come your way. And I think that's what happened with you, Celena, because if you think about who you used to be to who you are right now, like, you're doing so much creative stuff. Like it's crazy. You could write a whole novel here of all the things that you...

Celena Singh 15:07

I don't even recognize, like, what I felt and what I'm, like, what you're describing, it's almost like embracing things that people want to do as a child, but they, you know, your circumstances or people's expectations get in the way. And now, because I have this freedom, it's my time. I just have this, like, all these ideas that it's like, okay, it's okay that even if it's something people think is stupid, who cares? I can do it if I want to, and or not. And it's just really embracing my inner child is what I feel I've done or I'm doing right now.

Angela Barnard 15:39

Yeah. So that makes me think about how you said, it's like that childlike state of us that we want to like, bring back out where we used to feel like we could be ourselves, we could play. It's like, how can we bring that energy more into whatever it is we're doing. But I think what happens is, like, stuff gets in the way, like you were alluding to, it's like, the rules, like a lot of like structure in rules...

Celena Singh 16:03

Applications, structure, stigma, like stigma gets, like you're saying about, oh well, people who do music, they don't make very much money unless they're, you know, they become Taylor Swift, right. But that's okay if they're happy. And so I think I grew up around that, like, any creative things, like music, or... I was in sports, and that was creative, all of those things I love to do. And then because I was working at a very young age, it was like, that wasn't as important. It was more like, "Oh, you gotta go to school to become a doctor or lawyer." And so all the creative things, they're still there, it's just they get pushed down.

Angela Barnard 16:42

And there's this rule that you have to follow. Like, you need to be this kind of person. Like, I was literally just talking to one of my clients earlier today about this, how he went to law school, and he was talking about what he's interested in now. And instead of like, writing and stuff, like coming up with these stories, and it's so cool, and I can tell you, so like, gifted in that way, and he lights up when he talks about it. And he was like, you know, like, it's really interesting to me, because it's almost like that part of me has been like, no, like, you need to focus on this side, like be a lawyer or do this thing. And then that creative side of him was like, kinda like, tucked away. And he said, in his own mind, he also never thought of himself as a creative person. And now he's like, "Wait, like I am creative. There is stuff I'm interested in where I create things." And, you know, it's interesting to see, like that shift starting to happen. And I think a lot of that unfulfillment that was showing up for him, for a lot of us, is because we desired to be that creative person.

Celena Singh 17:39

And we don't want to be vulnerable about it. Because it's like people like, "why would you want to do that?" You know, it's like, because it lights me up.

Angela Barnard 17:48

Exactly. It makes me think into about like, how energetically if you think about when we start placing rules around how things have to be like, we're like, you have to do something exactly this way, kind of stuff it, like, we're not creative any more about it. I was just listening to an author earlier talk about how... when she knew that she wrote her book, like without a publisher and everything, like she did all of her stuff on her own, because she was like, I know myself, and I know, as soon as they start placing expectations around this whole process, my creativity isn't going to come out. And that makes me think about, like, the workplace and how there's all these expectations around like how people have been behaving, like, even in meetings, like you come to the meeting, you know, starts like this, and it ends like this, yada yada. But like, no one thinks about, like, the creative things we can do to make this meeting more fun. Because that got me thinking about when I was doing consulting work before I came to the HTYC team, I was coaching on my own, and then also doing crisis communications consulting work. So I was working with a lot of governmental contract stuff where we're designing crisis scenarios to train people on how to handle them. So I'm in these meetings with a lot of people, primarily men, I was like, one of two, I think females, and it was random in a very, like, rigid way of like, you know, just boring and not shouting.

Celena Singh 19:02

Like military. Very structured.

Angela Barnard 19:04

It was very much like that. And it would just be... you could tell everybody would disengage. They were never listening. They're always doing something on their laptop, you know, like watching, like, I've seen someone watching YouTube videos like, while someone was, you know, presenting. And I'm just thinking like, they zoned out because it's boring. And I remember being like, "Hey, I have a recommendation. Can we do a quote of the day? Just a quote of the day at the end of the PowerPoint." And I remember that the leader was like, "Okay", and I was like, "Well, I know you like quotes because I remember you shared me that you like these quotes", and he's like, "Yeah, okay." And then I remember he's next PowerPoint, and it had a quote of the day like, I was so proud. And I told him, I was like, you know, "I think other people would really enjoy it, would inspire us, keep us on track, like, you like to do, you know", and he, like, put this quote of the day and it was always like a funny thing. At the end of the PowerPoint, we're all waiting to see what quote he came up with, and it will make people laugh, and it like shifted the energy and I saw people even take their headphones out when they knew the presentation was about to end to like, listen to like the corny quote of the day. But it's like little things like that. These are really what I like to think about it as like energy shifters. I remember also back in the day, when I used to do a lot of auditing when I worked in county mental health, we had to prepare for all these crazy audits. And people would be like, "Oh, it's gonna be hell week, you know, these audits happening." And it's like, that's where people's mind goes. And I'm like, I'm gonna figure out how to make this fun. Like, how can we make this a fun thing. So what we did was like, we brought each other presents, like every day, like, I just did this thing where it's like, we're gonna drive high. Each day, you know, like, we have different presents we're bringing, some small, like, you know, candy bar, or something, I don't know, like tiny little things that, like, got us excited. And then we vow that we were dressing nice that week, we like, put ourselves in this other little room. And then I did like these competitions, because we noticed that we were really low in our performance indicators, with mental health, and I started doing competitions for like, each group where there was like, pizza parties that you get if you won, and like I would display information and like weird, childlike ways. And I remember even having so much mind trash about that– are they going to think I'm silly or whatever. But then you have to remember this, going back to what you said earlier, there is an inner child in each of us that's wanting to come out. And like if we play on that, it's just like, someone has to be the first person on the dance floor so the party starts.

Celena Singh 21:21

Like you were for our fun squad photo challenge. You were like the first one, right?

Angela Barnard 21:26

Oh, yeah, I was. That was fun.

Celena Singh 21:28

You kicked it off. And then everybody started sending the pictures, and everybody was so... it was so much fun. Like nobody really cared who won, it was so cool to share everyone's personality, right, or their inner child for the different categories we had. Like, that's some fun things that we do at work, you know, that helps us to be more creative as well.

Angela Barnard 21:46

So I love that you're bringing up that story. Because at HTYC, we really try hard to practice what we preach. We learned so much, even from our clients, we've all felt like those same feelings. So it's just like a really cool place to be because one of the things we practice is being intentional about having fun, being creative, and things like that. So we have like this, we have our fun squad who like has activities, and you know, like we generate that. So I'm just thinking about those that feel like maybe you work in a boring place, like can you be the change that you wish to see in the world? We need to go back to quotes, you know. Like, how can you start that there? Because what if the creativity and stuff isn't happening because no one's taking ownership to start it and be that person they're waiting? Like they're waiting to like, move to an external thing? Versus like, how can I be creative now because the thing is, if you can bring that to where you are now, watch the doors open for you, the opportunities to be more creative will show up for you. Because now as, Celena and I would like to say, you're in alignment with that.

Celena Singh 22:46

Amen. This is exactly why I started listening to this podcast is because we're very consistent with our message because the message that Scott started when he started his journey, we believe this is, you know, this is the HTYC, not just our why but the why for like what we want for the world, right? People having meaningful work, having a psychologically safe environment to work in, being able to be your inner child and not be judged. And you know, we want to serve the world this stuff so being... It might be hard work at the beginning, but the results and the way you get to live your life going forward is priceless.

Angela Barnard 23:24

Yeah, it's about like, it definitely is priceless because oh, that brings up another thing I always do talk about is because now that I'm here to be, like, selling you on the whole coaching process itself, like, I like to always say, "it was all you on yourself", because it makes me think about the concept of priceless like, when you think about investing in yourself like you did, like you invested into this whole coaching process. Because you know that it was priceless to truly enjoy your life. And you knew that there was like, you needed that clarity, you needed that help and that support and you were willing to invest in yourself to be that person.

Celena Singh 24:03

And ask for help. That was the thing for me, is to ask for help.

Angela Barnard 24:07

Yeah, and I don't know why I brought that up with the whole creative thing, but I just felt like it's in alignment because we're seeking to be more creative, to create more and do more things, you know, like be our true self. But sometimes there's that hurdle, that thing that's getting in the way, and then really what is happening here is you just need help. I kind of think about it as like I'm a hiker, so I always like really everything back to like hiking. Like let's say I'm trying to like hike up these crazy boulders and I just know I want to get over those boulders and get to this top of the mountain have this beautiful view and just really enjoy it, this boulders in the way, and it's like I can't because my bag is heavy. I got the sticks and all the stuff and I'm like trying to get over it and I can't, but maybe I just need to, instead of giving up and just like being like, I guess I can't do this, you know, look to see who can help me, give me a hand to pull me up. And maybe it's someone that's already up there that got there. And that's how I think about with HTYC is like, our whole team, all of us on our team had been in situations where we did not like what we were doing, we felt like we were meant for more.

Celena Singh 25:15

We were looking for our second mountain because we like this valley, right? And it was like helped me start climbing up, but, you know, we're all in these jobs where I can say firstly, where it's making all this money, and, you know, had all these inner side, like, "but I'm not happy", and then you kind of fall into this not so good place. And then that's when you know, HTYC kind of helped save my life, so to speak. Because then, I started asking for help to go up the second mountain, which is more about community and more about serving others and helping others and helping each other. When you say what you said, it resonated with me. And I thought, I have to say this, because we have...we're all supporting each other on our second mountain in life. And that's what we want to do for others.

Angela Barnard 25:59

Exactly. Like, truly, I hope people can hear that, like, what I love about our team is that... and I'm glad that you guys are getting to hear from more of us is that, I believe, we're just authentic, like we really are here to help you– our entire team. So like when you come to work with us as like, even coaches, it's not just us that you get, you have access to our whole team. And we're really cool. But I'm obviously very biased.

Celena Singh 26:21

Very cool team.

Angela Barnard 26:23

Super fun to hang out with. But we just like to give you the space to be your true self, you know, to say how you really feel. So there's one quote, I think, I want to just give to wrap this up. And actually I'm gonna recap two tips, two things that you can do, because I'm all about strategy. But before we get to that, the quote that I just want to say to wrap this up is like, "the reason why you feel so drained is that you're not doing enough of what lights you up." And that's really why you feel that way. So just paying attention to your energy, what else is going to light you up. And maybe you just need to bring a match into the space you're already in and lighten up where you already are. But it's something to think about to get clear... So the tips in a nutshell, in summary, that we think that you should do, the next steps you should take is, number one, get clear on how you want to be more creative/ maybe think about it as having more fun. What exactly would that look like to you? How can you bring it into what you're doing now? And then the second tip relative to the first one is that I want you to think about being a creative person, not just doing creative things, but being a creative person. If you were a creative person, how would you act where you are now? How would you do the work that you're doing now? So think about that, ponder on that, plan it out, like, this week. Can you think of one thing that you can do that's more fun or more creative for you? I think about this comes from like, if you're familiar with the book, "The Artist's Way" by Julia Cameron, she writes about a play date. Are you familiar with that, Celena?

Celena Singh 27:54

Yes, yeah.

Angela Barnard 27:55

Like having a playdate every week, like one day a week. And I just love that concept of just being committed to like, putting it actually in your calendar that you're going to be creative, you're going to show up creative, at least one of those days, like whatever goes into your calendar, I like to think about it as the things that matter most to you that you want to prioritize. And if you're feeling, if you're asking yourself the question, or you're saying, "I want to do more creative work. How can I do that?" Then that means you got to prioritize being that person now. That's how you become a creative person, is you act like a creative person now. That means, you use your time in that way so it needs to go into the calendar. So in a nutshell, put it in the calendar. Anything else you want to add, Celena, before we go?

Celena Singh 28:36

I would just say just to add to what you're saying, is believe it and you will see it.

Scott Anthony Barlow 28:40

Hey, I hope you loved this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And if this has been helpful, then please share this podcast with your friends, with your family, with your co-workers that badly need it. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Angela Barnard 29:03

It takes your power away, you know, when it's always based on something externally outside of you, for you to feel better. So I see that the people that create just really cool results in their life, it's because they focus on themselves, what they can control and keeping their energy high.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:22

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Kate Wilkes 00:01

It's like, you have this sense of self doubt related to, like, your work or your life accomplishments, like you've done these things, and you're just feeling like a faker. You think it's luck. You don't ever attribute it to your own abilities and your own skills.

Introduction 00:22

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:47

Okay, it's Scott. But you're not going to hear from me in this episode, because I'm taking some of our HTYC advice, and I'm stepping away from work. And this time for an entire month to be able to spend time with my family, and unplug. So I'm not going to be on this episode, or the next few. I am leaving you in great hands, of the Happen To Your Career podcast team, I know you're gonna love it.

Cindy Gonos 01:08

Hey everybody, it's Cindy. I am back for another HTYC team episode. Scott is still in Greece. So we are still taking over the podcast. Today, I am super, super, super stoked to have Kate who is our Chief People Officer here at HTYC. With Me, Kate, why don't you introduce yourself? Tell us a little about yourself.

Kate Wilkes 01:30

Oh yeah, the dreaded question of tell us about yourself. Thanks for that one. That was really nice.

Cindy Gonos 01:34

I already feel you. I want everybody else to get to know you better.

Kate Wilkes 01:38

You do know me. Don't tell everybody that we're work besties because it'll make our other work besties really jealous about us. So yeah, I work with the team. I help Scott out on a lot of stuff so that he can do big things. And they gave me a fancy title, it's called Chief People Officer. I don't know why I gotta say it funky. I just do. But no, I'm excited. I'm not sure the world is ready for us, yeah, but we're gonna do it anyway.

Cindy Gonos 02:02

They're here. They're ready. So just to remind everybody, I'm Cindy. I'm the Director of Client Success, aka usually the first person that you talk to here at HTYC. So Kate, I want to tell you about this dream I had. Do you want to hear about this dream I had? And I think that everybody may be able to kind of relate to this. But I've been having this recurring dream, right. So I'm like, waking up in the middle of night in a cold sweat. It's a nightmare. Like it's recurring. And I'm having it all the time. So I'm here in this large, sterile board room, right? And I am surrounded by a bunch of like, old white dudes in, like, black suits, like, men in black type suits. And for some reason, I am also, myself, an old white dude in a black suit. Right?

Kate Wilkes 02:48

Of course.

Cindy Gonos 02:49

Of course. Because it's my worst nightmare. For any of you that don't know, I am not an old white man. I'm a middle aged white lady. But so I'm in this room, and then all of a sudden, the man next to me, a table, he stands up, and he says, "I've solved the mystery of why our business has been failing." And just like the ending of every Scooby Doo episode ever, he proclaimed, "We have an impostor." And he turns and then he rips off my old man mask. Right? And there I am. And now I don't have a black suit on. I need it, but I have this red nose and like the clown suit, right? Like I'm dressed as a clown. And I look around the room and everybody is just staring at me. And in my gut, I'm like, "I know what they know, man. I don't belong here." And I got up and I shook my fist and like Scooby Doo style, and I say, "I would have gotten away with it, too, if it weren't for you meddling kids."

Kate Wilkes 03:52

Meddling kids.

Cindy Gonos 03:54

What is that about, Kate? Tell me what that is about.

Kate Wilkes 03:58

Oh, you got the imposter syndrome. That's like my worst nightmare. I have it right now. I have it every day.

Cindy Gonos 04:07

So you know we're going to be talking about impostor syndrome. So you've done some research, right? Well, you know some things. So Kate, tell us what you know about imposter syndrome, which you found out.

Kate Wilkes 04:18

Yeah, I've always felt like a bit of an imposter myself. So digging into the why behind it or the reasons that we have it was really eye opening and people that you don't even expect to be imposter have imposter syndrome habits. So yeah, it was exciting to read. And I was just like, every time I was reading something new about it, it's like, you have this sense of self doubt related to, like, your work or your life accomplishments, like you've done these things, and you're just feeling like a faker. Like it's not even because you're awesome that you did these things. You think it's luck, or you know, you don't think it's... you don't ever attribute it to your own abilities and your own skills. So come to find out 70% of us... 70% of us have felt like an impostor at some point. And I even came across an article about Tom Hanks, Emmy Award winning, Master of the big screen, sitting at his house. And he's thinking that we're going to find him out. So even though imposter syndrome is more common in women, there are men, even famous men, even famous old white men, (sorry, Tom, you're not old, you're just older) have this, where you feel like you're gonna have your mask ripped off of your face, right? And it's so uncomfortable to live in that space. You can get burned out, if you stay there if you allow yourself to stay there.

Cindy Gonos 05:58

I hear that for sure. I know a time when that happened to me in real life where I recognized it, right, I was able to recognize that it was imposter syndrome, like right there in the moment. And so I was doing... It was my last interview with the final boss. We'll just call him the final boss. Right? So I'm feeling really confident, like we're chatting, there's a lot of head nodding, and you know the head nodding, like, that's a good thing in an interview. And I was feeling really good. And then all of a sudden, he stopped me. And he said, "What books have you read?" I'm like "Books?" He's like, "Yeah, you know, business books. You know, Think and Grow Rich, Start With Why." And my head is buzzing and I'm thinking, okay, I'm trying to think of books that I've read, business books, he's talking about sales books, all this stuff. And I'm thinking, "He's asking me about this. Why is he asking me about all of these things?" I'm just talking about how I build relationships and how I motivate teams and stuff like that. So I'm like, in my head, screaming, "Cindy!"

Kate Wilkes 07:05

Think of one book.

Cindy Gonos 07:07

Ever read a sales book in your life? Say it now. Say the name of it. I don't even know the name of any sales book. So I was honest, right. So I said, "I don't think I've ever read any sales books." He was shocked, "Never read any sales books?" I shook my head, "No, no. Sales books, leadership books. No." And he said, "How can that be?" I didn't know what to say, so I just shrugged. Right. So I'm trying to play cool. But I'm getting a little bit nervous. Because he's talking about well, "How do you know the strategies? How do you know all these techniques? All these things that we've been talking about, if you haven't read these books?" And he picks up my resume. And he's looking at me, he's looking even more confused. And I'm thinking in my head, "Oh God, what is he looking for?"

Kate Wilkes 07:52

He's trying to connect the dots.

Cindy Gonos 07:54

I guess. In my head, though, the self doubt starts creeping in. And I'm thinking, "Okay, this is when it's going to happen. He's gonna see on my resume that I don't have a college degree. I didn't know any of the books he was talking about." Like, the classic imposter syndrome. I felt like it was. And I pause for a moment, I got my stuff together. And I got it. And I thought to myself, "I know exactly why I'm here. I know exactly how I got here." And now that I'm supposed to be here. And I got my little devilish grin on my face. And I just told him, I said, "You know what? I can tell you exactly how I learned all of this, and how I know all of this." And then, so it began. And that was my fleeting moment with imposter syndrome, right, where I knew I was like, "No. Dude, you're just having imposter syndrome." Have you had that? Have you had that happen to you?

Kate Wilkes 08:47

Yes. I mean, I think I'm the poster child for imposter syndrome. And I think to this very day, in my role working so closely with Scott, I'll always start to say, "Well, I'm not used to doing this or have never done that." And he'll say, "Well, I can give you bullet points of all of the times you've done things equally as good or greater than that. So stop doubting yourself." And you can hear that and you can say, "Yeah, I'm not really a guy under a mask. There's no Scooby Doo moment about to happen here." But I have felt it, you know. Especially when you are in the administrative world where you're assisting other people or teams, you're the last voice to be heard. You know, you have big ideas, but nobody ever cares. So when I joined the team here at Happen To Your Career a couple of years ago, I sat down at the table with the big kids. And even as an admin, you know, Scott looks at me and starts asking me what I think and what my input is. And I'm having that moment of panic in my head, like anything you say, can and will be stupid, like, I have nothing to contribute here. I had to learn how to like, get over that and just say my ideas and turns out, some of them are really great. But if you don't let yourself get out of your own head, and just realize that you do have contributions to make, you do have great ideas, like you could totally live in a place of constantly feeling like you're wearing a mask when you're not. And it just gets you down.

Cindy Gonos 10:30

Yeah, of course, I work with you all the time. And it sounds like especially in this environment, you are able to overcome, there are ways that you found to overcome that imposter syndrome, right? And I think there's this misconception that when you have imposter syndrome, it's something, like, that anytime you have self doubt, that's what it is. Or any type of question, that it must be imposter syndrome. So I started to ask the question, because I've been doing some research on this myself, what if it's not imposter syndrome? Right? What if you are an impostor? And I know that sounds really intense impostor, right? Sounds like you don't belong there. But what if you don't? Right? What if you find yourself in a situation where the role or the organization is not what you expected it to be and you're just not in the right place? By definition, that would make you an impostor. Right?

Kate Wilkes 11:32

Yeah. Have you ever found yourself there?

Cindy Gonos 11:36

Yeah, I have found myself there a number of times, actually, to be honest. But I can think of one time where somebody else had to tell me, I guess, in so many words. So I worked for an organization and I went in there as a leader. And my biggest problem, Kate, was that business was booming, right? So this was... I had moved on from my role with a final boss, I was really excited to make a really big meaningful impact in my new org. And I had everything, I had all the things on my resume, the skills, you know. I was the top performer. I was getting awesome reviews from my leaders, my team was engaged, I was facilitating and leading trainings for other of my peers, like everything was going exactly the way that I was supposed to be, right, on paper, everything was going the way that it was supposed to be, I should have been ecstatic. But it didn't matter. Like no matter how many new processes I created, or how many goals I hit, how many successes I had. It didn't feel good enough. And I was working, like, overdrive to overcome all the areas that I had considered my weak spots. But then all of a sudden, everything was feeling like a struggle. And I'm thinking, "Okay, it's just a matter of time until somebody finds out that I should not be in this role." One of my girlfriends, and she's like, "Oh, you're crazy. You're crazy. You're doing an amazing job. You're just having some doubts." You know imposter syndrome, right? So I could have just dismissed it like that. How do we get it, right? So I was thinking back like my final interview, and, you know, I looked up some ways to overcome imposter syndrome and, and all of that, but then I was not getting what I wanted. So I talked to the one person who knows all the things, in my opinion, and that was my dad. So my dad is like, I like to call my dad like blue collar, Obi Wan Kenobi, like my dad just knows all of the things. So shout out to my dad, if he's listening. So I'm talking to my dad, told him this situation, and he just like, really, plain as day, he just asks me, "Well, what if it's just you?" "Does it, what?" He's like, "What if it's just you? Like, what if it's not the role? It's just you don't belong in that role. Like, what if it's that?" He doesn't know anything about imposter syndrome, or, you know, he's not, like, savvy with stuff. But my brain exploded. I was like, "Whoa, wait, yeah. Maybe it was. Maybe I wasn't supposed to be in this role." Right? And I'm thinking about, hey, you know, what's my favorite movie of all time? Jurassic Park. So I'm hearing Jeff Goldblum in my head, I know right, "Oh my God, we were so preoccupied on whether or not we could that we didn't stop to think if we should." We do that so much. So sometimes you just have to take a step back and say, "Maybe it's not imposter syndrome. Maybe I'm an impostor." So for you, I struggled a little bit with imposter syndrome. But tell me a time when you've been the impostor.

Kate Wilkes 14:44

Oh, this is a great one. I was so young. And let's go way back. Let's age ourselves a little bit here. Let's go way back to age myself. Okay. So by the way people, Cindy is just about my age. So I'm aging both of us. So we're going back to the late 90s. I think it was 1997. I had the opportunity with my ex husband to move to Mexico. We didn't have kids, we had dogs, we piled them in the Honda and we drove to Mexico, the whole thing seemed like a big imposter syndrome. The company was paying for us to move. He was going to go teach the people how to do the work at the factory that he worked at. So I'm just living my best life, right? Playing golf with my girlfriend, and, you know, whatever. And a friend of a friend of ours came up to us at dinner one night, and she said, "Your Spanish is getting really good. We have an opening at the school for a Spanish teacher." And I'm like, "What? You want me to do what?" like, she said, my Spanish was getting good, but like my biggest phrases were like, besides curse words, because the first thing everyone teaches you when you move to Mexico is how to curse because they think it's so funny that all you can do is curse, like, my husband would not teach me real Spanish because he just wanted to see me curse. Hilarious. But to me, I was not the person to teach Spanish or to teach English to Spanish speaking people, because I was saying things like, "No habla espanol." Like that was my go to. And "dónde está el baño" because if you go to a restaurant or a Walmart, and you can't find that, like, you have to ask people, so I was not ripping out these big sentences and paragraphs and having a lot of conversational Spanish, it was very small. And then they gave me a job. And they gave me an office. And they gave me students, and it was executives who, you know, ran big companies in Mexico. And they were going to be coming to the United States for work with their families. And so, you know, all the kids had to learn English, or the mom and dad had to learn English. And I was here to teach them. And I remember sitting down that first day and thinking, "What am I doing here?" I had like, my pencils and my paper and my dry erase markers. And I was just like, "We're not even going to get past hello, how are you, I'm fine, thanks. Like it's not going to happen." And I'm a "fake it 'till you make it" kind of girl. So I definitely was like, they asked me to be here for a reason, I'm going to do my best and then try. So I did it for a few weeks. And every day got harder because I was more in my impostor fields. I was more like, starting to think like, really, these people paid me money for this. And I feel like, you know, I'm not giving them the best of anything. So, although they never fired me, they never said "you need to do better", my Spanish did improve just by existing in that space every day. I got to a point where I was like, "Listen, I've got to go back. This is not for me." Because every moment.... if you doubt every moment of your existence, because you know that you're not the best quote unquote "the best person" for the job, it would eat you up. So I was exhausted from, like, trying to practice at night and lesson plan. I might not be a teacher by a longshot. So I had to peace out. I was like, "I love you. Thank you."

Cindy Gonos 18:18

All the Spanish words you know at that point.

Kate Wilkes 18:22

Exactly. And it's not a good feeling. But once you realize, and you're like, "Okay, this is the deal. This is the actual deal. I am an impostor. I am a faker. I'm a poser. Okay, now I'm gonna walk away and do something that oh my gosh, it feels like I'm living in the right space." So that was super fun.

Cindy Gonos 18:42

Yeah, I think that's a great point to bring up. Because it makes it harder when you have people who are telling you, "oh, you're totally doing a great job." So it's not, yeah, it's about well, how do you feel about it, right? Because they don't know. Especially if they think you're doing a good job, you're probably not outwardly showing them how much drudgery you're feeling while you're going through.

Kate Wilkes 19:04

I was panicking quietly in my office.

Cindy Gonos 19:07

You're freaking out. Right? So okay, so if you are still feeling like you don't know, right? Is it imposter syndrome? Am I impostor? There are some ways that you can find out, right? Okay. There's some questions that you can ask yourself, if you're in a situation where you're starting to question, "is this imposter syndrome? Or do I really need to get the heck out of dodge? This is the wrong place for me." So what are some of the things? Let's kind of help the people, Kate, that's what we're here to do. Right?

Kate Wilkes 19:39

Absolutely.

Cindy Gonos 19:40

Help the folks figure out what are some of the questions that they can ask. So.

Kate Wilkes 19:44

Yeah, I think the first thing you have to ask yourself is "Am I using my strengths to my living and working in my strengths every day?" Because when we're doing things that we're naturally good at without even trying and we can even maybe lean into those and up our game there a little bit, then you're never going to feel as much as an imposter. Some of us will always have that. Because, no, we're always a little bit afraid. But when you're working in those strengths and doing those things that you know, like, "I kick ass at this. I'm good at this." Then that's, like, puts you in the zone and you feel so much more confident about your work and yourself.

Cindy Gonos 20:21

Yeah, totally. I think that's a great point. You can kind of feel it, you can feel it when you're there. Right? Like, okay, this is... strengths are tricky, right? I always tell folks this when I talk to them, because strengths are the things that were naturally good at. So sometimes we dismiss our strengths and recognize them. You know, if something comes with too much ease, if something's too easy, we don't usually look at it as a strength. We usually, "Oh, that's an easy thing."

Kate Wilkes 20:46

We feel like cheater pants because we must be lucky.

Cindy Gonos 20:50

Yeah. So the question is, do I feel like I have a level of mushroom while I'm doing this? Because if so, you're probably seeing your strengths, right? That's kind of how you get in the lit up Mario. Wow. Okay, just dated myself again, not talking about those Mario brothers anymore, whatever the games are. Okay, what else? Like what else can people ask themselves? So am I using my strengths daily? What else?

Kate Wilkes 21:12

I think also, you have to ask if your role that you're in allows you to grow and develop.

Cindy Gonos 21:17

Yes, I think that you, Kate, are a really great example of why you should not ever have imposter syndrome. Because when you came on board, the team, you were our executive assistant. Right? So you are not pigeon holed, you've had an opportunity. So coming in as an EA, tell me just a couple of the things that you have got to do.

Kate Wilkes 21:39

Oh, gosh.

Cindy Gonos 21:39

As a part of your role here at HTYC, as our EA than a typical EA would not get an opportunity to get to do.

Kate Wilkes 21:47

Yeah, everything. Everything. We live in this wild space as a small company that's grown a lot these last couple of years, where we're still a few people trying to do great things, a lot of great things with big goals. So on week three, or four, when I'm just getting into the groove with Scott as the CEO, and my boss, and he says, "Hey, we need some help with this website stuff, because we don't have anybody really on the team, and we've got stuff going wrong." And he says, "Hey, our audio guy, our content guy is really just going to pull back the reins and do some other work that he needs to do. And I need you to dip a toe there and write some content and work on the podcast." And so I'm just like, "What is happening? What is happening here? How am I supposed to do these things I have?" Of course, I'm a worker, right? Like, I'm a worker bee. So if you ask me to do something, I'm gonna go "sure I know nothing about that. Let me go try it." Even with all the fears inside, so, I assume in the time that I've been here, I've basically learned the whole business, which has been wonderful to even work with a company that would allow anybody to know the whole business, which we all really do well here. But so, you know, it becomes a place that you go to where you're eventually not afraid to try new things. But also, you're just willing to lean into whatever strengths you have that might apply to, you know, might apply to something, and like you get your confidence up when you try those new things. But, you know, sometimes that little imposter syndrome guy sits on your shoulder, and he says, "why are you doing this? Well, you know, you're not qualified to do this." But you can do it anyway.

Cindy Gonos 23:42

Yeah. So I think when you find yourself in a space where, I guess first and foremost, you kind of have to ask yourself, "Where do I want to grow? And where do I want to develop?" Right? So if you find yourself in that situation where you're like, "I don't know if it's imposter syndrome, or I don't know if I'm an imposter", ask yourself. If I am to grow, what do I want that to look like? And am I in a place here where I'm able to do that? So, you know, with your role, you had an opportunity to try out a lot of different hats here. And when it came time before it was dubbed Chief People Officer, I remember that you and Scott sat down and you guys talked about your strengths and where you really shine and where you really make an impact on the team and where you really love to be. And you grew into that and you grew there and you got there and now you're the CPO, right? So I think that you have to ask yourself, you don't have to be the CEO, but you do have to ask yourself, "Okay, is growth and development important to me? And if so, am I able to do that here?" And if I'm not, that doesn't mean that you have imposter syndrome.

Kate Wilkes 24:50

Right.

Cindy Gonos 24:51

That means DTFO. Right?

Kate Wilkes 24:54

If you're trying to make your peg fit into a whole different shape, and you're just trying to, you know, drive it home and make it work, maybe you are an imposter. Maybe it just doesn't match up.

Cindy Gonos 25:05

Yeah. So what is one other... we'll give the folks one other question. There are more. There's a way to get them. But tell us one more, Kate. One more question to ask yourself, if you're up to.

Kate Wilkes 25:16

I think it's really important to ask yourself, if you're at the end of the day, if you're fulfilled by the work that you do, because if you're an impostor, like for real for real, you are probably not going to feel that sense of accomplishment at the end of the day, because you can barely keep up. You're back here researching how to do the things that somebody in that role maybe should already know how to do and you're trying to train yourself up, you're not going to feel a sense of fulfillment and accomplishment as one would if you are in a role that you were meant to be in doing the things and the areas that you're meant to do them in.

Cindy Gonos 25:53

Yeah, I think that's a really great point. So I mean, I know lots of... we work really hard. There's lots of days when I'm tired. When I get done with work, I'm tired. My voice is gone. I know it's good. My husband knows that I've had a productive day when I can't talk at the end of the day, because I've done it so much during the day.

Kate Wilkes 26:09

That's right.

Cindy Gonos 26:10

I think there's a big difference between being tired and fulfilled, and being empty. It's like a different kind of tired, right? Like tired was a, like, human is like this beautiful sigh that just like *sigh* and like the other one is like "ugh", at the end of the day, right?

Kate Wilkes 26:28

Right in the "ugh" it's so much more painful, because you know it's just going to come back again tomorrow. And you have to make yourself go to bed and get back up in the morning and trudge into that "ugh" again. So you know, the first thing I do if I feel like I'm an imposter is try to get myself out of that space and go find something I love.

Cindy Gonos 26:50

Yeah. I think that's a really good thing to do. Because I think too, we get in that mindset of "Just keep going. Just keep going. Just keep going." Right? I saw some articles about overcoming impostor syndrome and using it as a challenge. You said, "you fake it 'till you make it", right. And I think there's a time and place to fake it till you make it. So I think it's a really short amount of time to do that. And then to be able to figure out, "Okay, what's the real deal here? I've been a faker for so long." So...

Kate Wilkes 27:22

I got a job one time with a huge payroll company, they asked me in the interview, "What is my level of Excel... what level of competency I had with Excel?" And I had never used it, but I got in there. And I, by golly, in the first, like, few weeks, figured out how to be a master at Excel. But all of the other things in the role were things that were my strengths, but I did it, I learned that thing. And I really succeeded in that role for several years. Because the rest of it, I didn't have to fake until I make, you know, it's like that one little piece or whatever.

Cindy Gonos 27:54

Yeah, I think you brought up a really good point just now, when you said that you succeeded in that role for a few years. But then it was time to move on. So I think that's the other thing, too, is being someplace for a long time does not make you exempt from being an imposter.

Kate Wilkes 28:09

No, not at all.

Cindy Gonos 28:10

Like, it's not make you exempt from being an impostor at all. So imposter syndrome, I know, by definition, it's you doubt your abilities, and you doubt that you deserve things. And, you know, I think there's elements of that that come along with being an imposter as well. But I think the big difference between the two is, if your heart's not in it, then you're probably an impostor. And if your heart's in it, and you have doubts, you probably just have a little bit of self doubt and imposter syndrome. So it can be tricky. And I think a lot of folks struggle with it. I think more folks struggle with trying to figure out if they have impostor syndrome than actually trying to figure out if they need to make a move into something that's more meaningful, or that would make them happier.

Kate Wilkes 28:59

Absolutely. And I think we, often as a society, especially here in the US, we put the old American Dream first, the work hard every day, you don't have to love your job, but you got to make money and you gotta put the roof over the house and all that. And instead of doing work you love, that you might actually be better at, that you might actually could make more money at, you know, instead of just trudging through life.

Cindy Gonos 29:24

Yeah, I hear that for sure. But you know, I talk with folks every single day, who… they don't say that they have imposter syndrome or hear it, right. So I chatted with a lady today. I will not say her name, but she was amazing. And I adored her and we had the greatest conversation. And we started talking about strengths. And I was commenting on how she had a really great mix of the top five strengths and all the different categories. And she said "Yeah, that means that I'm not really a master at any of these strengths." No. I was like, "What that means is you are amazing at every single one of these things." Right? But she couldn't see it. She couldn't see it.

Kate Wilkes 30:09

Those were her superpowers.

Cindy Gonos 30:11

Yeah, no, wait, back up. Yes, you're amazing at these. That's why they're your strengths. So I love that you said that's the first question to ask too, is, am I using my strengths? Because I think once you know what you're good at, and you know what... I love the term fills your bucket, right? My man used to say that, fill your bucket up. So that's what we're looking for. We want you to have, like, we want you to have whatever it is that fills up your bucket in that way. So, Kate, I've had an awesome time talking to you.

Kate Wilkes 30:41

This was super fun.

Cindy Gonos 30:42

Amazing. They may never let us do it again. This... you may not ever hear Kate and I on the podcast together. But I think we have more, right? We have more to share with you folks.

Kate Wilkes 30:53

We do, we have more.

Cindy Gonos 30:54

So there are some other questions that you can ask if you have doubts about whether or not you have imposter syndrome, or you are indeed an impostor. So there's lots of questions, questions that we didn't have enough time to talk about today. But I will give them to you. I'm not shy. I will give you all the things. So if you want to know what the questions are to ask yourself, or you want some more resources about, how do I use my strengths? Or how do I know if I'm an impostor? Or if I have imposter syndrome? Or if you want to read my article, that's fine. Send me an email. Normally, people get to email Scott. But today, you guys get to email me and I have some goodies for you. So if you email cindy@happentoyourcareer.com and you put "Impostor" in the subject line, I will send you all of those resources and the questions that you can ask yourself. And if you still don't know, right, if you still don't know after I give you all the resources, we can chat about it, you can reach out, we can set up a time to talk, you can tell me about your situation, I can help you figure it out. And if you find that you are an impostor, that's okay, that's it's totally okay, and you can make a change. And if you find that it's imposter syndrome, that's okay, too. There's ways you can cure that.

Kate Wilkes 32:07

You can overcome it. It's not a deadly disease, you can overcome it.

Cindy Gonos 32:10

You have the cure.

Kate Wilkes 32:11

There's a treatment. Well, thanks, Cindy. This has been fun.

Cindy Gonos 32:16

Thank you, Kate. This was amazing. I can't wait to do this again with you.

Kate Wilkes 32:20

Stay tuned, folks.

Cindy Gonos 32:21

Stay tuned.

Scott Anthony Barlow 32:28

Hey, I hope you loved this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And if this has been helpful, then please share this podcast with your friends, with your family, with your co-workers that badly need it. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Angela Barnard 32:45

When I think people are really saying when they say I want to be more creative, because I hear this all the time as a coach, I feel like what they're really saying is I want to live in more of an alignment. I want to feel better about what I'm doing. I want to feel good. I want to have more fun. It's like this feeling that they're really chasing.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:06

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Liz McLean 00:00

I tell my clients, every industry, no matter what it is, they have problems they're trying to solve right now, debates that are happening right now that you can just go join the conversation. That's what I told her to do, just get involved, get in the conversation. And she landed a job that way.

Introduction 00:21

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:46

Okay, it's Scott. But you're not going to hear from me in this episode, because I'm taking some of our HTYC advice, and I'm stepping away from work. And this time for an entire month to be able to spend time with my family, and unplug. So I'm not going to be on this episode, or the next few. I am leaving you in great hands, of the Happen To Your Career podcast team, I know you're gonna love it.

Phillip Migyanko 01:07

People often ask, "Okay, so what do the most successful people do?" And you can imagine, we get this question a lot. You might be having this thought about, "you know, I know I need to be doing things differently. But I just don't know how." And today, we thought we would tell you stories of people who have been successful through the process, and we're going to dissect what made them successful. And after you hear each one of those stories, you're gonna get those learnings and implement those strategies now for yourself. Not tomorrow, but today. Well, hey, this is Phillip. I am the Director of Client Results here at Happen To Your Career. And as you heard from Scott, the rest of the team and I, we're going to be taking over the podcast for the next few weeks. And today, I thought what a better opportunity to bring over some people to help answer that question about what do the most successful people do, then there are amazing coaches who actually help people do that very thing. And you've probably heard them before on the Happen To Your Career podcast. But today, I thought I would welcome both Ang and Liz.

Liz McLean 02:12

Thanks, Phillip. Super excited about this topic.

Angela Barnard 02:15

Thanks, Phillip.

Phillip Migyanko 02:16

Well, one of the things that we, as a team, often talk about are, you know, the people who just do this really well. And were bringing a story from somebody today that we thought was really successful, and just want to share that over. So I think Liz, let's start off with you. I know you have a really specific person you were thinking about.

Liz McLean 02:35

Yeah, I do. I was thinking about my client, Kylie. Let me give you a little bit of backstory. When I met her, she was... I wouldn't say quite mid level career. So she was a little bit newer in her career tenure. And she worked in the fashion industry. And I met her because she had gone through a transition or a layoff. Transition being a euphemism, she had been laid off from a large fashion company, retail brands with probably 20,000 plus employees. And so she was living in New York City. And I think she had originally gotten that job through a college New Hire program, right. So she was coming to this job search, you know, with the tool she had already learned via, you know, school career services, or on campus hiring events. And she found herself stuck, cuz she was applying. And it was a time when her industry was down. You know, there wasn't the demand for her skill set at that time. And so she was really struggling, she was finding postings, you know, very, I like to call it "the reactive side of the job search coin". And so we met and she was just lovely to work with. And I said, "Well, you know, let's see if we can be a little bit more proactive about this." And I said, "Well, what do you really love about this work? Like what got you into it?" And really tapping back into her curiosity. And I said to her, I said, "If you could go talk to anybody, about any topic...." and she really loved like niche–I like saying niche, but I alread said niche. She loved you know, these really narrow areas within her field. And I said, you know, she was really curious. The the word. That's the buzzword of the day. Curious about these topics, and I said, "Well, why don't you just go find people that are creating great content, and connect with them?" And she was like, "Well, I can do that. But I haven't done this." You know, she came to the...we hear this all the time from clients, right? She's like, "Well, who am I? You know, I haven't worked in this specific area. Who am I?" So, you know, if you just show up authentically and curious, that's the key being authentically people can smell you coming from a mile away if you're trying to fake this technique, and just engage with their contents and start consuming. So the good news is, it's something you like, and you want to learn more about and engage with our content, and start to comment, because and you know, we know this as coaches, there are lots of people that really love their topics and are creating content out there in the world, and are just getting crickets. And how much would they love to have someone come and say, "Yeah, I'm really excited about this, too. I just... I want to talk about it." So I encouraged her to lead from that... lead her job search from that place of curiosity. So she started doing that. And what happened was, people started to get curious about her. And they turned it around, and they said, "Well, hey, who are you? Like, what are you doing? Are you looking for a job?" And that's how she ended up landing her job is, and I coached her to say, like, as much as you can make it about the work itself, and the content and take yourself out of it, get out of your own head, gather your own way, as far as like, who am I to show up, I don't know these things, just follow what you love and what you want to know about. Because there are people out there that would love to talk about these topics. And I mean, I'm not a fashion person. We can be like, I don't know that world. She's like, "What should I talk about?" Like, I don't know. But guess what you do? You know that. And every industry, I tell my clients, every industry, no matter what it is, they have problems they're trying to solve right now, debates that are happening right now that you can just go join the conversation. That's basically what I told her to do, just get involved, get in the conversation. And that will cause that reciprocal curiosity. And she landed a job that way.

Phillip Migyanko 06:50

That's super awesome. I think it's funny, because it's one of the things that I think goes for all of our clients, in one way, when they are proactively tapping back into what makes them curious, and engaging with that content, whatever is put out in the world. And I think there's things about each one of our stories, but what we see so much for the people who do this process, and when they mean this process, it's this career change process, or when they're basically in the middle of a conversation when they're talking to somebody they have never met before. And you might find yourself in the same situation all the time. But as coaches, what we tend to find is the people who do very well are the ones who are tapping back in the curiosity point, but really engaging in that, and making a really genuine conversation from that. And I'm curious, have you found the same thing with your clients, you find the same kind of thing... I know. I'm teasing you Ang, because I know this is what she also talks about all the time. We all read the same thing. We've had hours long conversation on this. But yeah, I'm curious. Ang, do you have a client that's been like this as well?

Angela Barnard 07:56

Well, I love that you're curious, you're starting off with that. That's the key word right now. And the thing with that is, if you guys notice that when you show up from this place of curiosity, it's about the energy that you're projecting, instead of being like, worried about what people are going to think about you or if you're good enough to do X, Y, and Z thing, you're just curious. And that energy leads to the opportunities that light you up, right, but it starts with that energy. So I'll tell you about someone who I would consider to have really good energy that led to the opportunities that he has in his life today. I would say he's one of my favorite clients, but I say that about every one of my clients. So just keeping it real. But the client that I'm thinking of is Josh. So Josh came to me a while back, and he spent his whole career working in retail, everything from shoes, to suits, all the things and he was a really good leader, like he was always at the top of these agencies. But the thing with him is he had a family and he worked a lot of hours. And he worked a lot of weekends. And that's kind of what is common in the industry that he is in. So the thing with him is he had a lot of doubts, and if he could do something different. Because his education was basically, and what he had done, he didn't go to college at all, he just kind of started at a young age and, like, worked his way up in the industry. So he's like, "Well, do I need to go back to school? I don't even know exactly what it is I could do next." And that's very common with the people that Phillip and Liz and I work with is that people are like, "I have no idea what I could do. What is it that I even want to do?" And then there's always the question, would you guys agree, that people ask us, "Do I have to go back to school?"

Phillip Migyanko 09:43

Oh my gosh! All the time.

Angela Barnard 09:46

And they're like "Oh, so I'm gonna have to be in debt and all this" and then we have this whole story about it, right? So this is...I love to share Josh's example because he did not have to go back to school. And the other reason why I'm sharing his example is because the job that he got on paper, if you looked at the job description, he did not meet actually any of the qualifications on that job description, including the education one, the years of experience in the field and the written job description. But then he grew fast into this company. So let me tell you what happened. All he said to me was like, "I know for sure, Ang, that I want to work a nine to five role, basically. I'm thinking of maybe like, it'd be cool to be in kind of like an office setting where I get to meet people on a regular basis, because that's completely new to me, I'm not used to like being in an office setting, I'm usually on my feet running around, managing all these retail stores, traveling a lot. It'd be nice to have some more, like, stability and consistency with a nine to five, so I can be home for the family. Because I know for sure I want that." And I said, "Okay, so what kinds of roles are of interest to you then that have those characteristics?" And he's like, "Well, one of the things, I guess, is kind of like the banking or financial industry. I've been curious about that. Then again, I don't have any experience working in that field." You start going down that path again. I was like, "What if you just showed up really curious and you got to learn more about the field? Do you know anyone that currently works in the field?" And he was like, "I do have a friend that works in the fields." And I was like, "Well, what if you just reached out to him and just see if he knew anyone else, maybe someone could chat with you for a little bit." So he reaches out to his friends, he says, "I'm curious about this field." So anyways, his friend introduced him to someone else. And this guy really connected with him. And long story short, this guy ended up getting a job at a major bank, they paid for him to get all this special training and certifications. It wasn't long before he was running the entire bank there. And I'm talking like a year guys, it was fast. And then he gets this job, he truly loves that overall, the people that he works with and everything. But then I check in. He's like, "You know, Ang, I really love it overall, because I get to be with my family. But to be honest with you, I'm getting fat. I've been sitting around a lot. It's like, all I do all day is sit and I want to be walking around more. I'm feeling that urge to get out there and start walking around more." And I was like, "Okay, so what have you been curious about?" And he's like, "I'm curious about doing some like, where I get to kind of like, build partnerships or meet with a lot of people." So anyways, he started talking to me about that dream. And I said, "Well, let's just explore that. What would that look like?" So then again, he started reaching out, right after this same thing, he met with someone, had something in common with them, the person really liked him, offered him a job. And now he's the VP of like, client partnerships, or I forget the role. And what he does on a regular basis is take people out golfing. And he loves it. And I love his story. Because the bank role, somebody might be on the outside thinking like, "Okay, well, he found this job, and then he didn't like it." But I want you to see that that job actually led to his next job. It even gave him more clarity. He had more connections, he just had more confidence in himself. And I felt like that was a stepping stone he needed to get to where he is now. And I don't think he's done. I don't think any of us are ever done. This is an ongoing process. We were just talking about this, like, what do you guys think? Like, it does even.

Liz McLean 13:13

It's iterative, like, life.

Angela Barnard 13:15

Yeah. And because I want to say this, because a lot of times clients show up and they're like, "you know, for sure I'm gonna find the job that I want. And this will be the end all be all... like, this will make me so happy." And I was like, "No. You're the kind of person that wants to keep growing." And that means this is an ongoing thing. We constantly keep getting more clarity about ourselves, and we constantly keep shifting, and we constantly are just curious. And that's the kind of energy that leads to, I think, an awesome life. So that's my story.

Phillip Migyanko 13:45

It's super interesting, because I think partially from both Liz and Ang's story here is that, one of the commonalities to use, one of those terms we're going to use just in a second, is that what people are doing is just kind of getting out of their own way and showing up in a curious way, which actually in reality, means that they are showing up present, they're having really great energy, they're asking really great questions, and they're seeing the opportunities. And what can happen for people when they get to spots, where they don't feel like they're enough, they feel like if they go back to school, they feel like this is the person who's going to have the job as they get attached to this outcome, they get attached to the thing that's going to happen here. And it kind of detracts from actually having a really quality conversation and ends up really working with somebody that could be a really great person, that could be part of your tribe or be a good friend moving forward as well. I think all of these things kind of coincide with each other in the aspects of, yeah, showing up being curious is really important from an aspect of like, what are you going to talk about, but actually, it's so much more important than that because it allows you to really build a connection, which to your story with Josh, Ang, it serves you years on down the line.

Angela Barnard 15:04

And I love that you said, the whole concept of not getting attached to it. Because what happens there is when you start to get attached to the specific outcome, your energy shifts now to a lower state, you can be that kind of needy person, and then you don't leave room for the amazing surprises of life. Because Josh would have never known coming to start a coaching process, like, he would have never imagined that he would be where he is right now. But I felt like he just showed up and he was committed to being curious and then led to where he is today. And just to kind of summarize some of the consistencies that I've seen, and I know from hearing things from Phillip and from Liz, is that this whole, like, people show up with curiosity, the ones that do well, I would say, through this process, find a role that they're really excited about, they show them curiosity, they often, in those conversations, find something that they can relate to the other person on where that person feels like they're a part of their tribe. There's commonalities that are talked about there, where that person feels like they want to help them get to where they want to go. And that starts first off with curiosity. And then they show up intentional, because each person got clarity, some little bit of clarity around what it is that they wanted. And they were intentional about pursuing that, but they stay unattached. So I think those three things you need to pay attention to, if you want to be successful. So that was Josh's story. But I know that Phillip also has a really good story to share. So, Phillip.

Phillip Migyanko 16:44

Yeah. So you know, I'm just thinking about, okay, I've got a client who is actually going through this process right now. His name is Tom. And when we first started working together, and after working through his ideal career profile, he started gathering a list of what he was describing as target organizations. At the time, he was thinking about sustainability. And he thought that was the answer. And, you know, he started gather a list and got to a point in this process, and I know Liz and Ang, you've also been here as well, where they start to gather a list of, like, "Yeah, I'm gonna go out there. I'm gonna go do it." And then they just suddenly, like, lose motivation over time. It's like, when you start off sprinting, and they're like, "Okay, sprinting was really hard. Now I gotta go to run" then it turns into a walk. Tom was basically like that. He started gathering this list, and kind of talking through it one of our sessions, he just suddenly stopped getting so excited. And we got to a point where I did the same thing that Ang did with Josh, and then Liz with her fashion client, we're like, "Okay, let's pause. Rewind. Let's get back to what you're actually curious about." So I asked him the question, which is something you can ask yourself right now, which is, "Hey, Tom. What are you curious about? Like, what do you want to know?" And to be honest, it was like a deer in headlights situation. He looked at me like, "I don't know. I'm not sure what to think or what to say" which is totally okay. He took some time, he went back and thought about it. And the next week, he came back to the session enthusiastic to share a list of education technology companies. Now, these weren't just any kind of education, tech companies, these were very specific ones that focused on skill building for children that were under 10 years old. Now, Tom has an infant daughter. And this was very important because it mattered a lot for him, his family, and it was kind of similar to the space he's been working in right now. And he began doing his reach out. So his target organization-based on these companies, and during his reach out, and he's making them personal, he's making valuable, direct, and doing lots of follow ups. And the reason he was able to do that, based on, kind of, the similarities what Liz and Ang are mentioning with our clients, is that he found somebody who made a lot of content. And her name was Hannah. And Hannah was a project lead at one of these target organizations, where she would create lots of these YouTube videos. And Tom loved it. Like he was able to not only look at her LinkedIn profile, but he looked at her YouTube, she had like, I don't know, five plus hour long videos, just detailing things out. Like he'd come back. He takes notes. He have questions on stuff. And so it just allowed him to be really curious about not only what the company is doing, but who an actual person at the company and what they were doing. So Tom watched all those videos. Yeah, he took notes. He wrote down the questions he was curious about, like, you know, "how does this tie into this? And how does this thing tied to this?" And allow Tom not to just have, you know, one great conversation with Hannah, he later reached out to her and had a really great conversations, but allowed him to have multiple, hour and a half long conversations with Hannah that she later introduced him to the chief revenue officer, which then later introduced to the CEO. And during all those times, the thing that Tom did really well is he completed what we later called sessions, these "conversation prep guides". And so before each call, he knew, like what Ang was talking about, he knew the things that he was going to do to build rapport, like building commonalities. He can call things he liked about them, especially Hannah's videos, and her energy bringing in there, he kind of knew how he's going to take the conversation. Every time we're always talking about, "Okay, so what would great look like for this conversation? Where do I want to direct this thing?" And he also knew that the questions he was actually curious to ask, not these ones about, "So Hannah, tell me about what life looks like, as far as a project lead?" Like none of those kinds of questions, they were actually ones he was very, very curious about. So he was no stranger to running meetings at all. So he knew how to really get the conversation where he wanted to go and wrap it up. But it really just came back to treating the other human being like a human being. And Tom is able to do this again and again, where now he's in discussion with this organization that Hannah works for, and ultimately creating rules for himself right now. Now, you might be listening to this podcast in the future, and he might have the role there, or he might not. But really, the more important piece is that he's doing what a lot of our really successful clients do, and he's building really great conversations that allow him to create a role for himself or, and/or actually, get introduced to people who are going to create the rule for himself. So he's doing this right now. But the one thing I didn't tell you is that he's not just doing this for one organization, he's actually doing this for another organization at the same time. And, you know, we have so many clients who come in, and they think I'm going to build this huge client company list and people list, and it's just ginormous. And they usually put Apple on there, they'll put Meta on there, they'll put Google on there, they'll put Amazon on there. But Tom only has four organizations. And you might be thinking only four, but really, he got ultra specific, focused on what he wanted, got really intentional with his curiosity, and really started to see all those things that he wanted to work for. So yeah, Tom, he's just doing this really well. And the bigger aspect here, and what we often talk about our sessions is that, you know, something might come from either one of these opportunities or might not, but he's gained the skills to essentially create opportunities for himself. And he's doing those within the conversations he's having. So Ang, I just want to turn it over to you. Wrap it up all the points that we're seeing as part of the stories.

Angela Barnard 22:40

Okay, so I am a note taker. So I'm gonna be here taking notes and everything because...and you should be too, because there's so much goodness here. Okay, so we know for sure that showing up with a curious mindset versus being attached is key through this process, number one. The second thing that we know happened is that all of these success stories involve conversations, you being curious, and having conversations with humans, other humans that can help you meet your goals, or introduce you to other people, like, you don't need, you know, a mile long list. A lot of times, you can just talk to one person, and they kind of hand you off to someone else, because that happened a lot. The thing is, I liked how Phillip brought up the list. And when you know, Tom started having this long list, you saw that shift in his energy where he started getting attached. And then the same thing with Liz's client where she...you helped her Liz, like, kind of shift out of that attachment to it. It has to be a certain way. It was kind of like, "yeah, we just stay curious, you love this stuff, follow what it is that you love." So let's stay intentional. We knew that each client of ours had something they wanted to pursue an idea, some kind of level of clarity and they started down that path. There was intentionality behind it, all of them, whether we mentioned it or not, did some kind of prep work before they talked to someone so they could find something to connect with that person on. So this is where that tribe mentality comes in. That's something I'm always talking about is really just focusing on building almost like a sense of friendship. And really, kind of, I see it as like you're going out and talking to people to see if you would really, like, click with them. If you could make a new friend. It's like, if when you approach it in that way with that level of curiosity that again, like, backsies key.

Phillip Migyanko 24:32

Okay, so we get people in here who might be asking, "All right, but what do I do about this now?" And like, I always tell people, Liz is our train conductor. She's usually the person who's like, "So guys, let's get to the point. Let's keep going. Like, what can we do about this?" So like Liz, wrap us up. Like, what can people do here with this information?

Liz McLean 24:51

Yeah, sure. Are you talking about like tactical steps, like literally, I'm gonna go out and do something right now. So we've already cited a lot of examples, right. So it would be, you know, obviously getting your mindset right, being curious, sometimes I'll recommend clients actually get away from their desks to do this, like if they really can't get to that place of curious energy, go to the bookstore, just go for a walk. And when you're in a relaxed state, where does your mind naturally go? And then just start to see if you can tap into that, and follow that, right? Just get to that energy and feeling like what that feels like, again, so you can do things like listen to a podcast, like "Oh, I love this topic. I remember, I really loved botany, like, I'm gonna go listen to a podcast on this. I'm gonna go what's really some really interesting episode." Oh, and then guess what? You can go reach out to the podcast host or you can reach out to the guest, and show up and express gratitude, right? I mean, Phillip, you are always saying like, "just go have a conversation, just go talk to people", right. And I would say, you know, no conversations, like, equals no opportunities, if you will. Like, you can't stay in your own head and not get out into the world, and connect with people to create these opportunities, right? So, you know, we live in 2022. The good news is, is like that you can get to a podcast, you can get to a book, some clients will lead with... lead from the company, just even a company that you like, or admire, or you're curious about, like, "I really love this product or service. Let me go learn more about that. How did they come to be? What is their culture like?" I mean, fall down the rabbit hole. Don't stay there, though, because we know, Ang and Phillip, we've talked about having clients where it's like, "you gotta get them at a research mode." And they'd be like, "Alright, who you're gonna go talk to?" Right. Now just go have the conversation. Go have it imperfectly, and that's okay. And just get out and keep having those conversations. And we've already talked about, you know, with the sum up intentional not getting attached, like how you do it, and you will get better at it as you do it.

Phillip Migyanko 27:12

Yeah. So you already hear where this stuff really comes down to is just getting into those conversations. And, you know, this is something we've been secretly wanting to record this podcast for a while now, because we often talk about so much like, "what do clients just need to do?" Like, they just need to get into conversations. And this is what you know, it sounds like when all of us, as coaches, we're talking together, we're talking about people, we're talking about the things they need to do, and really what ultimately need to believe in, you know, this is something we believe that it's just not something you can just teach in about getting to your next job, this is more about helping you but helping see the bigger picture here that it's just not about just having the next conversation, it's much more about, you're gonna keep having these conversations again, and again, and again, and again. And it's so much about evolving your career, both now and later. And this is my personal feeling where it's also in service to others. Because you might be thinking about this, from your perspective, but in X number of years, there's going to be somebody else who's in those shoes, who's gonna be coming to you and going, "Hey, I just want to learn about you and what do you do and blah, blah, blah" and then your job is to ultimately potentially help that person, and things later on down the line. This is so much bigger than all of us. And it's come so much back to more of how are you connecting with people on these ideas. And, you know, the other thing you might be thinking here as well as like, "Okay, Phillip, Liz, Ang, guys, this is just for extroverts." But we really see this as it's not just for extroverts. It's not just for introverts, like we've seen both groups do well with this as well. So you're gonna continue to build your tribe, your community, the people, your network, because we believe that this is where the opportunity is, and ultimately is created from and this is what we see our most successful clients do. They do those three things, and they get started now. So there's no better way to wrap it up than that, but thanks so much, Liz and Ang, for coming on, for showing everybody what the coaches look like, how we talk, how we think about all our stuff. So thanks for coming on.

Angela Barnard 29:15

Thanks, Phillip.

Liz McLean 29:16

Thanks, Phillip.

Scott Anthony Barlow 29:22

Many of the stories that you've heard on the podcast are from listeners that have decided they want to take action, and taking the first step of having a conversation with our team to try and figure out how we can help. And if you want to implement what you have heard, and you want to completely change your life and your career, then let's figure out how we can help. So here's what I would suggest, just open your phone right now and open your email app. And I'm going to give you my personal email address, scott@happentoyourcareer.com just email me and put 'Conversation' in the subject line. And we can absolutely connect you with my team. I'm not answering my email right now, but I have a team member, Kate, who absolutely will make sure that you get connected with our team and the right person on our team so that we can figure out the very best way that we can help with that.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:18

Hey, I hope you loved this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And if this has been helpful, then please share this podcast with your friends, with your family, with your co-workers that badly need it. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Kate Wilkes 30:37

It's like, you have this sense of self doubt related to your work or your life accomplishments, like you've done these things, and you're just feeling like a faker. You think it's luck. You don't ever attribute it to your own abilities and your own skills.

Scott Anthony Barlow 30:56

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.

Phillip Migyanko 00:01

Experience is experience. And you don't start over by going and doing something new. You actually take all your experiences, you take all of your learnings, you take everything about you to the new role. And it comes from this scarcity mindset, where you feel like I'm not bringing anything to the table, and usually nothing is farther from the truth.

Introduction 00:24

This is the Happen To Your Career podcast, with Scott Anthony Barlow. We help you stop doing work that doesn't fit you, figure out what does and make it happen. We help you define the work that's unapologetically you, and then go get it. If you're ready to make a change, keep listening. Here's Scott. Here's Scott. Here's Scott.

Scott Anthony Barlow 00:49

If you've listened to the HTYC podcast for more than one episode, you've probably figured out we do things a bit differently around here. So today, you're actually not going to be hearing from me. I'm taking off work for an entire month. Yes, an entire month. Let's back up here. How did that happen? And it turns out that it's actually something that we, as an organization, had been working on for close to three years. And it started out with my wife and I wanting to be able to step away from the organization, step away from HTYC for a month at a time, and have it not be dependent on us. We felt that our message and what we're doing here, the work we're doing here, is too important to depend upon just me or just her. And it's taken us the last few years to really be able to get the organization to the level where we were able to do that. But we don't just want to do this for the two of us, we want every member of our team to be able to step away when they need to, or when they want to. I want that level of flexibility for everyone on the Happen To Your Career team. Because most organizations, well, it's not really possible to do that. Right? What our organization actually stands for is not just helping people make career changes, not just helping people find their ideal career and ideal work. But legitimately changing the way that we do work as an entire world, and also how we think about work. And this starts with our very own company. So my wife, Alyssa, and my kids are actually currently out practicing what we preach, what we teach. And we're combining this month off of work with a trip to Greece, which I talked about, on another bonus episode of the podcast here. So take a listen to that if you want the full story. But we're in Greece right now, if you're listening to this, which means that next week, and the week after, and the week after, and the week after that, the team is taking over the podcast. So you're gonna hear from our entire HTYC team discussing different topics, not just in the realm of career change, but also many of the questions that we get all the time as an organization, those things that we haven't been able to talk about, and even some things that we talked about behind the scenes all the time, but now we want to share them with you. So I'm really excited for you to get to know them because they're pretty amazing and they do great work. So here you go.

Phillip Migyanko 03:06

It happens to the best of us. You wake up one day and you're 40, or even your 50s or 60s, and you feel like you're having a full blown midlife career crisis, your career fields off track, and you realize that you want more, something's missing, then the questions begin. Is it the company culture? Is it the industry you're in? Is it your day to day responsibilities in your current role? Or maybe it's a combination of all of these. You can feel that you want or need to make a change, but then the assumptions and limiting beliefs start to creep in. There are a lot of limiting beliefs that come along with making a midlife career change, which leads to what we refer to as a midlife career crisis. Hi, I'm Cindy, and I'm the Director of Client Success at HTYC. As you heard from Scott, the rest of the team and I are taking over the podcast for the next few weeks. And today I'm joined by Phillip. He's our Director of Client Results. And you've heard him many times on the podcast before.

Phillip Migyanko 04:04

Hey, thanks for the introduction, Cindy. And yeah, our team, we're taking over the podcast. And today I'm super excited to talk about midlife career change, because it's something that we talk about all the time behind the scenes, and it's something that me and you specifically see all the time in working with clients. And you know, I think it's an interesting fact to include in the beginning of "why", you know why people want to make a change at this age. And you see this a lot, it's from one of the books I think you recommended to me, is that right?

Cindy Gonos 04:33

Yes, absolutely. So it's from Arthur C. Brooks book "From Strength to Strength". I was really, really moved by this book. Phillip, you know, I am a person who is in midlife. So this resonated with me really well. But one of the things that he said is there's an interesting set of findings that says that "success early on is based on one of two types of intelligence." The first is called fluid intelligence. This gives you the ability to solve problems, to crack the case, to innovate faster, and to focus harder than pretty much all the competition early on in your career. So this is like your Elon Musk brain. This increase is through your 20s and into your 30s, but it tends to decline through your 40s and 50s. Meaning that you need to move to the second kind of intelligence, which is increasing in your 40s and 50s, and even your 60s, and that's gonna stay with you for the rest of your life. And that's what's called your crystallized intelligence. This is your wisdom, your ability to compile the information that's in your vast library to teach better, to explain better, to form better teams. In other words, not to answer somebody else's questions, but to form the right questions.

Phillip Migyanko 05:37

That's super interesting. And I think I like the part about Elon Musk's brain the most. But with everything that is said, and like Cindy said here, we talk to a lot of people that are going through this mid life career crisis, or at least, that's what we call, it definitely feels like a crisis. And today, we're going to tell you about four... just four of the most common limiting beliefs that we see all the time in people that are in their 40s, and their 50s, and their 60s, and they're wanting to make a change. So even if you're sitting here and you might be in your 20s, your 30s, or in your teens, this stuff is still relevant to you, because this can be stuff later on. And even if you're in that age right now, it's super relevant. And, you know, we're going to tell you about some of our clients who were able to overcome these limiting beliefs, and really find what they love. So, without further ado, I'm just going to go ahead and get out of the way and let Cindy get started. So Cindy, I know there's one specifically that you wanted to start with, what is that?

Cindy Gonos 06:32

Yes, definitely. Because I hear this all the time when I'm having first time conversations with folks. And that is that they feel like they're going to have to start over in an organization, like, they're gonna have to start from the very beginning, they've built up this title, they've built up this procedure in their role. So a lot of times this is about starting over as far as job title and role. But my friend, Dan Ruley, would tell you that job titles don't really matter. So I love Dan's story. Technically, he took a step down when he left his director of sales role for a large organization to be the Senior Program Manager at another organization. But here's a spoiler alert, Phillip, he makes more money and is able to focus on what he does best in this role. So this started off with a conflict between family and work that caused him to lose his job. And he really started to reevaluate his priorities. So he started to ask himself, what do you really love about sales leadership?'' And the answer was always to mentor and to help people grow. He had had a career in sales training before and was really happy. But he didn't make that much money. And that was ultimately the reason why he pivoted into a higher paying director role. And it worked out for a while, but then it didn't. So he went full force back into trying to find a job that was in sales enablement and training. He said the hardest thing was probably getting out of his own way. So he'd spent the majority of his career trying to make sure that he was in these larger leadership roles. And it was hard for him to think about stepping down and being out of an executive leadership role. And going into what still is a leadership role, but not quite the same executive level. With his level of experience, it was a really big pill to swallow. But at the end of the day, it didn't matter because the title didn't matter. Being happy with what you're doing, that's what matters. And now Dan's doing that. He's getting to do what he really loves. He's in an organization that recognizes his skills and his experience and allows him to create success for his team in his way. So now he feels like he's a truly valuable person on the team. And yeah, like I said before, he's making more, he's making almost three times what he was making with a smaller title. And he's not complaining about that, either. So it's a win-win for sure.

Phillip Migyanko 08:46

You know, and that's an interesting thing in there as well, because it's... just to be clear, so that's... it's the feeling of, like, you're having to start over. And, you know, we talked to lots of individuals who feel like this all the time, we have a whole guide about, what do you have to do all these nine steps you don't have to start over? And I think the interesting thing about Dan Ruley's story from what you're mentioning here, and if you've listened to his podcast episode, it's that thinking about this in a larger picture aspect, meaning, that title really wasn't that important to him. And that really thinking about five years ahead, that, you know, would I rather be unhappy for five years in my current spot? Or am I going to go do something different even though that title doesn't matter? And going back to what I am liking before because experience is experienced, and you don't start over by going and doing something new. You actually take all your experiences, you take all of your learnings, you take everything about you to the new role, and it comes from this scarcity mindset, where you feel like I'm not bringing anything to the table. And usually nothing's farther from the truth and that can actually hurt you in the long run but also hurt you in your conversations as well. I don't know if you see that as well, Cindy.

Cindy Gonos 10:00

Yeah, I hear that all the time, Phillip, when I'm talking to folks. I tell everyone the same thing that you tell your clients is that "Everything you have goes with you, you get to take it with you." You're never ever really starting over. And those experiences are the things that make you who you are. So yeah, I don't think that anybody ever really starts over. But it's definitely one of the most common limiting beliefs. Phillip, I know you have a ton of experience with working with clients. Can you tell me a little bit about Michael and his limiting belief that he overcame? I love his story so much.

Phillip Migyanko 10:35

Yeah. So this is Michael, if you've heard him on the Happen To Your Career podcast, he is a great story. But he really highlights the second one of the four that we're talking about. And it's one that I see all the time. And usually, when I talk to anybody, no matter their age, they'll usually wear it as this badge of honor, like "I'm a 50 something year old, and I've got this much time left." And it also comes from this aspect of like, "Hey, I can't afford to make this change. Basically, I don't have enough time, and I don't have the time before retirement, and I gotta do everything I can before I get my fancy watch. And then I go and retire." And that's really kind of highlighted, you know. Basically in Michael's story, and he's really the definition of somebody who could not afford not to make a change. Hear that again. He could not afford to not make a change. You might be listening to this, you might be going "Okay, wait, that might be me. I can't be sitting here in the spot anymore. And I'm listening to them on my lunch break. And now I have to go back in and oh, I can't be doing this anymore." And, you know, his story sounds really glamorous. And I hear this all the time, right. He was the vice president of worldwide distribution, finance at Sony, he loved movies, and he loved TV. And he said that "If you're going to do accounting, do it for a product that you have interest in. And then you'll be excited about the sales and then excited about the marketing. And you'll be engaged in the company and blah, blah, blah." Stuff Cindy, and our entire team at Happen To Your Career hear it all the time. If I just love the thing, then I'll have no problems. If I just love the thing, then I'll never work a day in your life, right? Wrong. He started out as a senior financial analyst in September of 2001. And he could see right away that the more you can handle, the more you would just, they would just throw at you. I'm sure everybody can raise their hand if you've been there before. But at the end, it got to a point where the demands of the job felt like they were 24/7. The work just kept piling up till it was physically emotionally and everything was just, he just couldn't keep himself going. It was literally killing him. And mentally, he was just overwhelmed all the time and worried constantly about too many things. Now, not being able to fix anything perfectly or make anything work perfectly, that was not a good combination for Michael. Remember I said the perfectionism thing. And it was just this constant routine of lots of work, keep going, more stuff to do, perfection and stuff getting in, what's the next big raise, keep it going, get another bonus, keep going and going going. I'm on this trajectory to basically get to retirement and then die. And he had a great team of people under him. And that sustained him for years. And he felt like it was his duty to suffer through this job. Now, I hear this one all the time, like work is just hard. I just have to do these things. And maybe it's just hard, and I'll just, you know what I grit my teeth. And I'll go for another five years, I'll go for another 10 years. And because he wanted to see his team advance, because he really cared about them, and to see them get promoted and take on more responsibility, he stayed. And this is great. And he did that until he physically couldn't do it anymore. He wasn't sleeping, he was eating. Remember I said all the physical and mental and just stress he got on. And like no joke. And if you listen to his story, he even talks about this where he lost 20 pounds in that last year. And he kept telling himself, you know, "It'll get better, it'll get better, it'll get better. It's just the emotional roller coaster" and until he was completely burned out and gave us notice in the beginning of 2019 with no backup plan, he was like, "Okay, it's not gonna get better. I just have to go." Now, he reached out to us, I remember having the first conversation with them. And that first step for him was letting go of the "I have to stay on the path that I'm on. I have to stay entertainment. I have to stay in finance, I have to (insert whatever that is) maybe in your story" and I very much relate to this where I often say for Phillip, "I became the slave to my own ambition." And, you know, for him and his story and maybe for a lot of our people who are in this midlife career crisis, we're saying, you know, they spent so much time there, but if I don't do that, then I'm throwing away everything else. And you know, we mentioned here that if this is... we can't afford this, it's not just afford financially, but it's also afford for time aspect, for opportunity. And that if I'm starting from the beginning, that I'm basically having to feel like I'm starting over, it's very similar to the one that Cindy was just mentioning. And long story short, he had to let go of that belief. That was really, really, really hard to do. And that advice came from his coach Mo. And it was that decide what you want in your life now, like, decide what you want your life to look like now, and lay it out and pick how you want to live your life structured, before you start looking for a job in another company. What that means is that get started now that as everybody in their midlife knows that time is fleeting, and that we have a philosophy and we have really one of our values here at Happen To Your Career, which is one life. And I don't mean to Yolo anybody here, and that for all of us non millennial people, that is you only live once. But really what that means more is that we have limited time. And that we're thinking about the bigger picture is what are you doing about it now, because if you get too far, in a bad job for a long time, it takes so much longer to get out of that, and then actually make the change. And really, that's indicative of Michael's story, because today, he's a mortgage broker and a loan officer. And he says he would never want to go back to sitting somewhere, and getting paid by the hour over an annual salary. And what that's given him is a sense of purpose, a sense of control for his time now, and in control the volume of his business, how fast or slow he wants to go. And most importantly, he can take a break, really whenever he needs. And Cindy, thanks for mentioning that story. I think Michaels story is so good here.

Cindy Gonos 16:45

Yeah, I have to say, as I'm talking to folks, I don't know if there's any one podcast episode that has resonated so deeply with folks as Michael's story. I'll get on calls and people will tell me that his podcast moves them to tears. So I think that it's easy to see yourself and Michael story for a lot of folks because especially like you think about he's got his team underneath him. He thinks he has what he should want. Right? He thinks he's there. He thinks he has it. So he starts to out like is the grind worth it? And I think a lot of folks, especially those of us who are like Gen X, like we grind, like that's what we were taught to do, that's what we were brought up to do. Our parents were boomers, or we ourselves are boomers, you know, or our parents were the greatest generation or we are the greatest generation, you know, just those generational things of you just like work, work, work, work work. And Michael's a really great example of, "You don't have to do that. Please don't do that."

Phillip Migyanko 17:49

Yeah, definitely not feeling like you have to do that and just keep going. And to the point where you just physically mentally exhaust yourself, it goes back to the thing about bigger picture here. But I know that there's another one that you want to talk about that is... we're not supposed to pick favorites here. But I think secretly this one's my favorite. So Cindy, tell me about this one that you see all the time, especially with people who jump on conversations with you.

Cindy Gonos 18:15

Yes, definitely. So I'm going to tell you about Thomas R. Williams. I also don't like to play favorites, Phillip. But I love Thomas's story so much. Thomas struggled with the thing that we all struggle with no matter what age we are. But I think that it especially comes into play as we start to get a little bit older, a little more mature. And that's our self doubt or self confidence. Right? That we're not enough. So Thomas R. Williams knew he had one purpose in life, what God had created him to do and the reason that he was on earth was to play football. So for five years he played in the NFL, he played for the Jacksonville Jaguars, he played for the Carolina Panthers and for the Buffalo Bills. But then on October 30th 2011, he sustained a neck injury. And as he lay on the ground paralyzed for almost two and a half minutes, his doctor gave him a choice. Did he want to walk for the rest of his life? Or did he want to play football for a few more years? Thomas didn't realize that at that moment, but football was just his passion that was going to lead him to his purpose. He was scared but also exhilarated because there was a feeling inside of them in his stomach that told him "The time is now. Time now to transition." And so for him on that day, it was a whisper inside of his ear that said "You're finished." And even though it was easy for him to understand, it was really difficult for him to embrace. So at first he struggled with his identity. He had gained so much confidence while he was an athlete, right? So that confidence came from repetition over and over again on the field. So to fix that identity piece, he had to start gaining confidence doing something new that he had never explored before. And I think importantly, he had never been complimented on before. He had to start looking for the yeses from people who saw what was inside of them. So he told himself, "don't focus on developing weaknesses, go to your strengths first." He looked for careers and opportunities that allowed him to do the things that are trusted people– his advisors, his teammates, his friends, these are the things that they told him that he was good at. And what they told him is that he had been an inspiration to everyone around him. That's how we ended up finding public speaking, personal development, coaching and consulting, and even coined his own catchphrase, Phillip, which is like, I'm just absolutely obsessed with this. He said, "I never stopped playing football, I just don't tackle people anymore." He created a mindset of taking that same determination, the same grit and all of the other characteristics from his football career. And he was able to apply them into the life that he has now. And I think that's pretty amazing.

Phillip Migyanko 21:00

I mean, that's super amazing, especially that quote that you said, of, you know, "I never stopped playing football, I just don't tackle people." And, you know, it comes back to the third point, which is, you know, not feeling enough or not feeling like we are enough. And like you mentioned, every single person no matter their age has the same feeling. But it just has a different flavor. It has a different taste for this midlife career kind of crisis, because it almost comes back to that perfectionism. That was also Michael's story. But even the same thing here. And I'm kind of teasing the fourth bullet point a little bit in here, too, where it's so much around– who am I? What's my new identity now? And what am I going towards? And the feeling of not enough. Feeling like, well, I've only been doing this for so long, I've been in this career for so long. Or maybe you're on the other side that where I feel like I've jumped around to so many places and done so many things. And it really becomes a story that we tell ourselves that doesn't actually serve us and can really hinder, one, the ability to come out and ask for help to join on a conversation with Cindy or myself and then, two, join on conversations but really be able to look for the life that you want to build later because I don't know about you, but I'm never gonna feel like I'm making my life my career that I want if I don't feel like I'm feeling great.

Cindy Gonos 22:20

Yeah, no, I feel that for sure. I mean, and I will speak as a recent empty nester, Phillip, you know this. My husband is a very recent empty nester. And I think that it's that identity piece, right. Even with the other examples that we were talking about, it all kind of boils down to embracing who you are in that moment and knowing that who you are in that moment is enough. And I think that we see that with so many of our clients. So tell me, Phillip, round it out, bring it home, we got one more limiting belief to talk about. So bring us home with this last limiting belief, Phillip.

Phillip Migyanko 22:58

Yeah, so you mentioned the beginning. So my team, our client results team, the team that I lead, we work with people all the time in this mid midlife career spot. And this is one that I hear a lot, especially from this group. And from looking at the data, what stops people for often making these big changes is this when I call this internal identity change, meaning, I can't leave something I know or I've worked so hard for. (Insert) I've worked for a place for 10, 15, 20, blink blink years, or I am known to my organization is blah, blah, blah, this thing. And what happens is, is that there can be a lot of limiting beliefs, or at least mindset stuff where they feel like they can't leave the thing that they've done so much, and go to something else. Now, we see this as an internal identity thing, like I've always been an astronaut, right. And I cannot not never been an astronaut anymore. Or I've reached the point in my organization where I am known as the fixer. And if I go to another organization, will they know me as the fixer? Will they not know me? Or I've gotten to a point where I have so much PTO or so much time off how many I get that same vacation that I do every single year that I have pre booked in this new organization. Will they be okay with that? Would they not be okay with that? And it really starts a couple of things. And one of the things that you might have heard this podcast from Jenny Briggs now, Jenny, she was a research scientist who you know, she loves science, but ultimately hated her job. And she was afraid of disappointing others and giving up on all that hard work that she'd done in her career and losing the benefits of her education, which held her back from finding her ideal role. Hint. Now, this comes back to I feel like I've put so much into the thing that I can't go find the next thing. Now, Jenny here, she wanted to love her job but she didn't. She hated it. And her family could generations of professors too, and to deviate from that path as adds another layer of complexity here. So, you know, what she mentioned that she worked both in the education realm for a while, and as a field biologist, and she definitely had a series of part time jobs during college, they led to some great adventures and learning experiences. But she had the realization through graduate school that she didn't really want this traditional career as an academic professor. And we see this a lot, especially with our midlife career changers, where they're seeing these things are like, "Okay, wait. People are doing it differently here." Or "The person who I've been working with for the last 10 years, they just left" Or she... Like I said, her family, including her dad, did this academic type of work. So she's seen lots of examples of what this career path has done, and what's intrigued her about it, and what she hasn't liked about it. And so she learned really from all of her experiences before that, "Hey, I don't know if this would, you know, best be the fit for me." And it took... long story short, it really took Jenny three years to work through all those fears, all those anxieties, all those things that she did, and ultimately landed her into her ideal role. So really, within here, it's one of the things that Jenny was struggling with was that I've just seen how it's worked for so long, and this is part of who I am. It's bred into me that I can't see doing anything else. And I'm working with clients right now and so was my team, who are... and this is... you might be a lawyer, we have lots of people who go, "I can't see myself being a lawyer anymore. I can't see myself doing these things anymore." And it's a really, really, really difficult script to flip in your head. Anything else to add there? Anything else I forgot?

Cindy Gonos 26:45

No, I love that. And I love the fact that you kind of called out that with Jenny, it was the expected path that she was supposed to go down. It was bred into her to do that. And it's so funny, because I'm thinking of a particular client, Phillip, you and I both know and adore her. But she's one of our older clients. And I remember having a first time call with her. And she let me know, "Cindy, I'm in my 60s. And I don't know what I want to be when I grow up." And she had been in a role for a long time. It was established. She had the prestige. And her heart just wasn't in it. And I think that there's something that's so empowering at any age, being able to say, "I don't know what I want to be when I grow up. But now I get a say. Now I do get to pick, I get to choose, I get to decide what I want to be when I grow up." At any time, at any age, you can decide what you want to be when you grow up. And sometimes when I do first time calls with folks, I'll ask them, "When you were a little kid, what did you want to be when you grow up?" And it's so amazing how you'll see that connection between the things that they cared and valued when they were kids and the things that they still care and value now, and how in some way, shape or form, we can bring those things together, because that's what fills their bucket. Like it may not be that they're an astronaut, right, maybe that's what they wanted to be when they were a little kid. But what we do is we focus on their strengths, and we figure out how they best show up and where they make the biggest impact. And in my heart, I believe they become an astronaut. You know what I mean?

Phillip Migyanko 28:28

Totally. And you know, one of the things that we haven't mentioned here and we consciously chose not to do it, but just to bring it in for a second. Ageism. That's one concern that we hear all of the time. It's like oh, and just to just to validate those fears, there is total ageism out there, Scott's told stories, I've had stories, Cindy I'm sure you have stories of seeing that both on the hiring side, but also feeling that on the other side. And regardless of that, one of the things that we're kind of pointing out here and really, for all of our top four kinds of things, you know, it has less to do with that. And really, at the end of the day, this is what I often tell my clients is "We don't really want to be working with those people anyways, like why would you want to be working with somebody who's going to be like, wait, what's your birth certificate? What year were you born? What generation you're in?" Okay, that's going to dictate all of those things. And I remember working with one client, and that was a huge concern for her. She was concerned like, "Well, I'm a 50 something year old, and they're going to, that's the first thing they're going to look at. And they're not going to do all these things." And how we got around that, basically, was she just created relationships. She just talked to people and she talked to people as people. And she connected on values. She connected on experience. She connected on things that she cared about. And ultimately Cindy, I think that's your point. So kind of to wrap up over four here, I think number one, and you let me know if I missed anything in here as well. Number one is I don't want to have to feel like I've started over. Two, I can't afford to make a change. Three, I have not enough. And four is internal identity change of, how can I move on from something I've been doing for so long to something completely new? Did I get all of them, Cindy?

Cindy Gonos 30:12

You got them all, Phillip. You got them all. Yes.

Phillip Migyanko 30:15

Nice.

Cindy Gonos 30:15

So I guess the big question now is...

Phillip Migyanko 30:18

So yeah, what to do next?

Cindy Gonos 30:20

What do you do? What do you do, right? So easy peasy lemon squeezy. Just ditch those limiting beliefs sounds so easy, doesn't it? Like, no big deal? Just let them go. No, I think one of the most important things that folks can do is get some clarity, right, you need to gain some clarity, really dive into discovering what you want and how you can get it. I think that once you start to do that, then things start to become more real life. You start to like, understand that these things can happen, you really need to just get some clarity. So that's the first thing you can do is get some clarity. The second thing is to promote your strengths. We focus a lot on trades. We talk about trends all the time. So take pride in your experience and your willingness to learn what you don't know. And keep in mind that everything you have comes with you. Every experience, every strength, every skill, everything comes with you. And then I think probably the most important thing that you can do is ask for help. I think that's the hardest thing. And I think it's probably the most important thing. So usually, Phillip, Scott would tell folks to reach out to him.

Phillip Migyanko 31:30

Yeah, but he's out of office right.

Cindy Gonos 31:32

But they cannot because he is going to Greece. So if you would like to talk more about your situation, if you feel like you are having a midlife career crisis, and you would like to talk to another middle aged person who happens to know a lot about helping people get through their midlife career crisis, then you can reach out to me, you can email me at cindy@happentoyourcareer.com you can put "Midlife Career Crisis", put midlife career crisis in the subject title, and then we can connect and we can talk more about your midlife career crisis. Or you can go to the website happentoyourcareer.com/schedule and you can actually schedule a time to talk with me. And we can grab about old school style, like life about midlife career crisis. But, either way, I would love to hear from folks.

Phillip Migyanko 32:25

Yeah, to brag about Cindy, just for a second, she is just absolutely amazing in these calls. Anytime I am getting somebody who is in this stage, who comes to us right from a call, they're usually like, "Oh my gosh, she's great. She knew exactly what's going on." Because like she said, she's a person who's felt these things before and really understands and relates to this stuff. So reach out to ask for help. This stuff is difficult. All those four things, nobody does anything alone. And it's not like, "Oh, I'm gonna get clarity and flip my script." And we spend a long time helping people get their strengths. So don't hesitate. If you're needing help, usually sooner rather than later. And yeah, email Cindy at cindy@happentoyourcareer.com or go to happentoyourcareer.com/schedule and we love to talk to you and figure out a way that if we can help, let's help.

Cindy Gonos 33:16

Phillip, this has been awesome. I love our team takeover of the HTYC podcast. And I think that people might be hearing more from us in the next couple of weeks. Right?

Phillip Migyanko 33:26

Yeah, thanks so much for bringing me on and super excited. I know we've got a lot of different things planned coming down the pipeline. So this is not the last time you'll see either one of us and especially last time you see one of us take care of the podcast, maybe we might kick Scott out of his seat and try something new. So when he gets back from Greece, maybe Scott might sound differently, or you just might hear some other ones. But thank you so much for bringing me on and excited to talk to you all.

Scott Anthony Barlow 33:58

Hey, I hope you loved this episode. Thanks so much for listening. And if this has been helpful, then please share this podcast with your friends, with your family, with your co-workers that badly need it. Here's a sneak peek into what we have coming up in store for you next week.

Liz McLean 34:15

I tell my clients, every industry no matter what it is, I don't know the topics that they have problems they're trying to solve right now, debates that are happening right now that you can just go join the conversation and that will cause that reciprocal curiosity. And she landed a job that way.

Scott Anthony Barlow 34:36

All that and plenty more next week right here on Happen To Your Career. Make sure that you don't miss it. And if you haven't already, click Subscribe on your podcast player so that you can download this podcast in your sleep, and you get it automatically, even the bonus episodes every single week, sometimes multiple times a week. Until next week. Adios. I'm out.